# What kind of PDF's would be GOOD to mix????



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Answer:


NONE!

Just a friendly reminder since this seems to come up EVERY WEEK with people asking "Is it OK to mix this with that". PDF's can be mixed, but it is NEVER a *GOOD* idea.


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

we are talking about adults Right? if we're talking about froglets then I would have to disagree, Not trying to lump on you here, just wondering.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You have to look at why the animals aren't being mixed. If hybridizing was the only, or even biggest problem, then yes, mixing as froglets wouldn't be that much of an issue. But honestly I have enough issues mixing frogs of the same population to even try different species.

To post again what I've posted twice already tonight:

Mixing species... both within and bwteen genera/families... is not recomended with PDFs, and its not for hybridizing reasons (tho that is often the first, and only reason give when mixing PDFs is brought up - it's a distant second in most cases). You have to take into account not just the habitat needs (which rules out the native critters like green TFs, green anoles, and the drier P. hypochondrialis), but the food preferences (RETFs eating smaller PDFs, bicolor/terribilis eating the geckos) and also the highly aggressive natures of PDFs. Often even PDFs living sympatrically have niches isolated from each other so they don't interact.


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> You have to look at why the animals aren't being mixed. If hybridizing was the only, or even biggest problem, then yes, mixing as froglets wouldn't be that much of an issue. But honestly I have enough issues mixing frogs of the same population to even try different species.
> 
> To post again what I've posted twice already tonight:
> 
> Mixing species... both within and bwteen genera/families... is not recomended with PDFs, and its not for hybridizing reasons (tho that is often the first, and only reason give when mixing PDFs is brought up - it's a distant second in most cases). You have to take into account not just the habitat needs (which rules out the native critters like green TFs, green anoles, and the drier P. hypochondrialis), but the food preferences (RETFs eating smaller PDFs, bicolor/terribilis eating the geckos) and also the highly aggressive natures of PDFs. Often even PDFs living sympatrically have niches isolated from each other so they don't interact.


I understand what your saying but I have kept ( I dont anymore due to people really frowning on it :roll: ) My newly morphed auratus with my newly morphed azureus, and there was never a problem, but I would only leave them mixed until they reached the age of 7 months. To me thats when I could see a difference in behavior and such things, I usually had them sold by then but if I still had a few I would then seperate them. I Know there is a local breeder here that keeps mantella's with vents, I asked him about it and he said there hasnt been a problem yet(its been two months since they were brought together.). But I can honestly say, I if I have a couple of lets say Cobalt froglets(just an example) left over from the show, I dont hesitate to put them in with my luec froglets(the same size or age). But again like ive said I havnt mixed frogs for some time. I just dont see the big funk with mixing froglets together I know there are a hole slew of reasons but non that I think should be cut throat. 
anyone that responds please do in a mature manor.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I know, and have kept myself, froglets closely related together up until around 5 months of age (tinc group frogs together). As long as you make sure to keep them all around the same size and have at least 5 in the tank then there aren't usually so many problems. I would not mix frogs from different species groups and genera, too many differences even at the froglet stage. That's really only something a breeder with space issues and a ton of froglets would really need to do anyways, otherwise why not just raise them up seperately?


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> I know, and have kept myself, froglets closely related together up until around 5 months of age (tinc group frogs together). As long as you make sure to keep them all around the same size and have at least 5 in the tank then there aren't usually so many problems. I would not mix frogs from different species groups and genera, too many differences even at the froglet stage. That's really only something a breeder with space issues and a ton of froglets would really need to do anyways, otherwise why not just raise them up seperately?



haha you summed it up I NEED SPACE!!!!, in fact here in a couple of weeks im gonna have a bunch of different froglets up for sale. I had my green and bronze auratus with my azureus up until about 2 days ago, they were only 3 months old, but there now all seperated(ughh what a relief to get a little extra room), but anyways Did I like mixing No, But sometimes honestly I have to, but not for long and if anything extreme is going on, you bet I'll make space or find a salution. Im getting ready to set up a new rack system so I should be good here soon. Thanks for the info and more info is welcomed.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

And here I feel guilty when I mix 3 month old frogs with 4-5 month old frogs of the same species/morph while raising them up :shock: 

Bill


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Bill, I'd be more worried about mixing 3 month olds with 4-5 month olds from the same species than I would 3 month olds from the same species/different morph or possibly even within the same species group. I've had some 4-5 month olds kick the snot out of 3 month olds (do frogs have snot? Or is it more... whipe the slime of 3 month olds?). 

Which is the lesser of the two evils? And do you need to make that choice... if at all possible, don't put yourself into that situation. If you're having that much of a space issue, you probibly need to cut down on frogs :roll:


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> Bill, I'd be more worried about mixing 3 month olds with 4-5 month olds from the same species than I would 3 month olds from the same species/different morph or possibly even within the same species group. I've had some 4-5 month olds kick the snot out of 3 month olds (do frogs have snot? Or is it more... whipe the slime of 3 month olds?).
> 
> Which is the lesser of the two evils? And do you need to make that choice... if at all possible, don't put yourself into that situation. If you're having that much of a space issue, you probibly need to cut down on frogs :roll:


This is true, Yeah I would feel more nervous about mixing elders with youngins. But its all getting sorted out.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

xfrogx said:


> we are talking about adults Right? if we're talking about froglets then I would have to disagree, Not trying to lump on you here, just wondering.


OK, just to review, it doesn't matter adults or juvies or froglets, it's never a *GOOD* idea


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Raising and keeping frogs has its complications and reguardless what one does or doesn't do, they will occur. There are just as many problems keeping frogs together of the same population as there are of different genera - they just happen to be different problems. The frogs know what is best for them and if the keeper can't see read the signs that frog is telling them, then no amount of isolating frogs is going to help them.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> Bill, I'd be more worried about mixing 3 month olds with 4-5 month olds from the same species than I would 3 month olds from the same species/different morph or possibly even within the same species group. I've had some 4-5 month olds kick the snot out of 3 month olds (do frogs have snot? Or is it more... whipe the slime of 3 month olds?).
> 
> Which is the lesser of the two evils? And do you need to make that choice... if at all possible, don't put yourself into that situation. If you're having that much of a space issue, you probibly need to cut down on frogs :roll:


Corey,

I was being a bit of a smart aleck...I will occasionally shuffle different age frogs together based on size to avoid having any lagging members being picked on by their larger siblings...though this is usually not the case.

I have plenty of space...unfortunately I also have plenty of frogs :roll: 

Bill


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## Josh_Leisenring (Jun 19, 2005)

Oy... why are we having this discussion again?  Seriously, though, when in doubt, just don't mix. If you have to, though, then you have to, and if you're here and you know your frogs, then you're probably doing the best you can with what you have to work with to make sure it doesn't stress out your frogs. Anyway, isn't there a thread in "Good Threads to read for Beginners" we can refer anyone who asks about mixing to? I don't mean to get snippy, but this all seems a bit on the redundant side. Just my two cents, though. Spend it wisely! 

- Josh


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Pretty much my reason for posting this thread. Despite the great threads for beginners there is a thread about "can I mix this with that" every week if not more frequent. For whatever reason people seem to think the answer is going to be different for azureus and imitators than it would be for leucs and tincs. This was just a gentle reminder about the overall attitude and possibility for mixing species.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Bill - that's why listing age doesn't mean much... you'll always have larger animals and smaller animals that are the same age. I was thinking they'd have a size difference  If you're organizing them by size, that's what you're suppose to do anyways.... you're justing trying to play with my head, you are 

Josh, I'm not really fond of the idea "if you have to, you have to" as it tends to give people the excuse they need to not look into why they should this under only... well... no circumstances if they know their frogs and manage their collections properly. If animals are researched appropriately before people get them, the different needs should be obvious, and a different habitat set up for them before the animal is aquired. If the animals are "breeding out of control"... meaning you've given plenty of space to the adults and not to the offspring they produce, then you probibly need to rethink the size of your collection (taking out a couple of pairs to get down to a level were you can manage offspring) or changing something about their care (leaving the eggs in the tank and let the parents transport greatly reduces the amount produced over the year as the parents care for the eggs already there, instead of rushing to replace eggs they instinctually think we've predated by removing). See what I mean? By thinking ahead properly there should be no situation of "becuase I had to", its just an excuse for not planning.


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Haha...This is like talking about venomoids on kingsnake LOL! Hits a nerve a lot ya know...

My 2 cents is that mixing (species) would only be/is ok in very young tinctorius group froglets (not counting auratus). Only for a month or two though, just to established froglet size. Anything bigger and the tinc's (azureus grouped with tinc complex) would start to get territorial. Even then, you still would need plently of space for each froglet to get out of the way of his/her tankmates. The larger ones would need to be removed. Leucs and tincs _might_ be the only species that would think to be alright (though not reccomended) to mix. Seeing as the luecs like to be higher much more often and do well with onther tinc group frogs (male or female), but only in something that is around 100 gallons or more...Even then, you would have to cull out any hybrid offspring and that isn't any fun right??? PDF's are too neato to kill just because they aren't pure so don't let it happen ya know! Lol... :wink: 

Yeah so thats just my take on this subject...


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## Josh_Leisenring (Jun 19, 2005)

That was more a response to xfrogx and his need for space. I'm not out to give people excuses for mixing their frogs, but even if you didn't plan to have froglets out the wazoo, well, you've got them now, and you have to do something with them. If all you can do is dump a bunch of auratus with azureus with tincs or whatever into a communal tank for a little while until you've made space, well... Look, I'm not trying to make excuses for people, particularly for poor planning, but when the unexpected happens, you've gotta do the best you can with what you have. I think I've made it pretty clear that I don't approve of mixing, but sometimes you just need to take into account the circumstances.

- Josh


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I personally can't look back on my experiences with the mentioned frogs and agree with the points you've posted (which have already been brought up and shot down anyways for the most part). What is the point of mixing juveniles for a month or two when you'll have to seperate them anyways? That speaks to space issues. Heaven forbid they be similar looking frogs to boot... which one is which. If you have the space, you shouldn't have to do it.

As for tincs and azureus, big no. Your reasoning is along the same lines people use to try and get azureus and imitator in the same tank, and not loooking at all the factors. Azureus and leucs are considered terrestrial species, meaning they stay within a meter or so of the ground. Leucs are not more "arboreal", but are more likely to take advantage of room given in the tank than a larger, chunkier frog like azureus that prefers leaf litter. This does not mean they occupy different "layers" like in fish tanks. To look at different "layers" for dart frogs you'd have to have a tank well over a few meters tall to see the segregation accurately. You can't put a terrestrial and semiterrestrial (such as many of the thumbnail species) in a tank under a couple meters tall and actually give them the space needed to segregate. You can have a 100+ gallon tank that is less than a meter tall... doesn't matter on the gallons it still won't work. You also have to think about feeding... I've seen female tincs and azureus cause male memebers of their species to lose weight as they hog the feeding spot... how would a leuc or other smaller PDF be able to handle that? In a large tank you could get multiple feeding spots, but these frogs have different food preferences, how would you get enough to the frogs that are suppose to get them?

Another problem with closely related frogs is that these animals will exhibit the same aggression to these animals as they would members of their own species/morph. Just because the leucs get along well in groups doesn't mean the azureus do, and that the azureus wouldn't act on it. You'd be lucky to get to the point where you'd have hybrids to cull (which is, by my theory, egg priracy rather than anything like a leuc and an azureus actually courting and breeding).

Again I must point out that these are some of the most aggressive amphibians out there, and you have to take into account everything about them... environmental niche (including if they are terrestrial or semiterrestrial) and environmental needs, food preferences, inter and intra species aggression, the experience and knowledge of the species to know the healthy of all animals involved (not to mention the lack of breeding in almost all mixed tanks is a clear sign something is wrong). This isn't like talking about if a human practice like removing venom glands is humane (don't even get me started on that one, but that is purely opinion anyways), this is talking about mixing animals with long term success... which just doesn't happen under the conditions almost all the hobby is working with. With super aggressive animals is incredibly hard and rare (to impossible) to do... not a matter of opinion but of fact. These frogs go out of their way to aviod each other in the wild, why are we trying to stuff them together? (much like putting fish in their pond when their evolution to land based breeding was to get away from permenant water sources that would contain fish... see the issue with that idea?).


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## Josh_Leisenring (Jun 19, 2005)

Ummm... I'm assuming that was all in response to thekidgecko, yes? :? 

- Josh


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## Josh_Leisenring (Jun 19, 2005)

Whoa! I just took a quick look at The Mixed Tank Verdict thread in the Good Threads to Read for Beginners, and apparently almost half of those who took the poll still think mixing is okay "Depending on choice of species" :shock: 
Somehow the fact that some variant of the mixing question keeps coming up doesn't surprise me so much anymore... :? 

- Josh


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I've have always stayed quiet on this topic but I think today I will not. I am NOT trying to create a FIRE so if your attitude is 8ithchy or a know it all, I don't think it helps the conversation about reality.

Most of those who comment about not mixing don't because it has been pounded into them as the wrong thing to do and they will carry the torch without any real knowledge or especially experience. That's all fine and well but we end up with assumptions and observations that are simply NOT TRUE. others carry the torch because of a religious belief of the evil of mixing. I don't disagree with this but have found my own needs different in a particular case.

If one of you would care to admit that you have kept many morphs together and how many and what was the experience like and if it failed what is your belief as to why it failed directly because of mixing, I would love to hear it and I believe the community would be well served. I believe if someone has had a positive experience then also sharing on the experience and analysing the facts may be helpful and address false ideas that just seemed to be excepted.

I will share my REAL experience and what I have observed. I will not give you all the details because on this topic I believe many talk in ignorance and prejudice. I don't necessarily disagree with the principle but I do disagree with purporting information that just isn't true and staying ignorant is irritating.

I keep and have kept 30-40 PDF in a community of frogs in a large heavily planted tank for over 3 years. I have kept adults juvis and froglets in this tank. Probably the minimum number of different morphs I have kept at any one time is at least 5. I have kept tinc sized and thumbs together. I have kept many odd ratios of males and females. I also keep and have kept over 25 morphs in separate breeder type tanks for over 9 years. I currently have 7 thumb species, 5 tinc size species and 1 mid-sized frog in this community tank. I have 2 froglets. that were put in at 2 weeks after morphing out and are now about 8 weeks old.

My experience is that in keeping a group or community of frogs that they actually seem healthier, plumper and MUCH MUCH more visual in the tank. I do not have a morph of a PDF that I would call shy and in fact certain morphs that others claim to never see, mine are out daily if not continually.

The comment that PDFs that come from different climates and conditions can not co-exist in good health is just simply not true in my actual experience. As far as hybrids are concerned for me in 3 years there hasn't been a single froglet under these conditions. They call, they show breeding behavior, but they just have not brought a tadpole into existence.

There is a element of robust behavior that I can only give the example to dogs to best describe it. My Husky, Lakeland, and Chihuahua love to be together and do well and love to interact with one another even though there are some major differences between them. They play together. The frogs in there own way do the same and I believe have a better life for it.

I would NOT recommend this for anybody without years of experience, and a fully established and well built tank. They also have to be very heavily feed with absolutely no shortage of food. I can usually notice within a day if a frog is not doing well that I newly introduce to the tank and I only introduce frogs that have been with me for some time and are known to be established and healthy.

So to sum up, if the argument is that Hybridizing is the main reason than for my experience this just doesn't happen in a large community. If for health reasons than I would argue against the logic of the day and say that my actual experience does not represent the fear mongering of the day. If you say that we have a responsibility to raise each morph and make sure they are established in the hobby, than this is the only argument I can strongly agree with BUT my keeping a community has not stopped me from breeding. I will take out a pair that I see activity with and separate them for a period of time and let them pro-create.

I do not keep a community of frogs because of expense, space, or time problems. I do it simply because I want to and my frogs are healthy. Again I post this not to create a fire so if you have some real world experience that flies in the face of what I am reporting please share it. My first reaction is going to be that just because you failed does not make it logically the truth.

If the moderators feel I have over stepped my bounds please feel free to delete this in what you feel is best for the hobby.

Good Luck.


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## Josh_Leisenring (Jun 19, 2005)

Hey, David:
Well, I have to admit it's a bit refreshing to hear of an instance when someone has mixed with success. But, as you've said, you have many years of experience with your frogs, and you keep them in a large well planted viv. I'd actually be interested in hearing more about your setup and how you've accomplished this.  
I think the main issue here, though, is that many of the people who want to mix species/morphs tend to be inexperienced, and if you don't know what you're doing, you're just asking for disaster. I still wouldn't mix species, and am extremely hesitant to mix morphs, and I've personally been dealing with PDFs for a while. I just think it's best not to take unnecessary risks with your frogs, whether it results in overly stressing them or producing hybrids or whatever. I think this is a case where it's best to learn from the mistakes of others, and, so far, practically everything I've heard about attempts at mixing has not turned out well. It can be done, of course; zoos and other institutions do it all the time, and, as you've said, it works fine for you. For what it's worth, I just prefer to err on the side of caution. 

- Josh


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

David,
I hope your post doesn't get censored and we keep this an open forum. 
Can I ask how big your community tank is?

EricG.NH


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

> Can I ask how big your community tank is?


No, I dont want to answer specifics because I think experience will tell you all you need to know. After a few years you will know your frogs.




> I just prefer to err on the side of caution


Wise to error on the side of caution.


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Like I said...Usually not good and never reccomended, but what I mostly meant about that is that if you have to, and you have no other choice, by all means put some froglets together until you can set up more tanks or sell them, you know? As long as they aren't in there permanently or they aren't sized up enough to start getting real territorial...Dunno, just my 2 cents. Never have tried mixing, never will :?


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## Josh_Leisenring (Jun 19, 2005)

Yeah, put that way, Mason, that's pretty much my take on it as well. I think we can all agree that, under most circumstances, particularly in the environment of a novices collection, mixing is not going to be a good thing. That doesn't mean that it can't work, or that there aren't going to be times when you just can't get around it, but you better know what you're getting yourself into if you decide to go ahead and do it. If you're going to mix, ultimately, that's your own business. But if you're going to ask us about about it, we're always going to recommend against doing so because, frankly, if you have to ask if it's a good idea, then no, it's not. 
I appologize if some of us get snarky or b!tchy or dogmatic regarding this topic, or any other, for that matter; I think we could all stand to be a bit more civil and reasonable around here at times. It's obvious that we all have some very strong feelings about this, though, and I think perhaps more of an effort needs to be made to actually listen to the opposing arguments and understand where they're coming from instead of just shooting them down out of hand. We all want what's best for the frogs, after all. 

- Josh


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Very good post Josh and that kind of attitude and passion can only make you successful with your frogs and in the hobby and life. Good luck.


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## megweg79 (Dec 22, 2006)

Since the question was asked, I will share my experience w/ mixing too. I realize it is not recommended (as this forum has clearly demostrated), but I have a 55gal very well planted vivarium with many hiding spots with 2 auratus and two leucs. They have been doing great for 4 years now and are extremely active and plump.


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## Regan (Oct 30, 2007)

I'll say, as a nube, I was surprised at the no mixing because every zoo or aquarium I've gone to has mixed species (and I mean bad mixing both for interbreeding and aggression, ie tincs and azures). So people see the UN of PDFs there then come here and it's "don't even look at two species at the same time!" Why do zoos do it? Are they afraid the short attention span of the average zoo patron would get bored looking at 4 exhibits of PDFs so let's have one big one?

And while people do get snarky, I think most of that is out of frustration both with how often it comes up and for the perceived lack of care shown by someone who hasn't put in the elementary level of research it takes to find out mixing is bad. While that might offend another nube, it might be enough for someone to put down the visa and read a few threads. Just MO.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

zoos have a larger budget for veterinary care than the average hobbyist.

With reference to the auratus and leuc maintenance, it's not necessarily that it "can't" be done, it whether or not it's risky. I've seen several experienced froggers do it. Even Black Jungle has mixed displays. 

BUT, it is a common question asked by beginners whom are not yet familiar with the behaviors of the animals. Once you've been around them long enough, you'll know intuitively what's safe and what's not. Intuitively you know it's probably safer not to risk cross breeding or stress when you have important breeders.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

a quote from an earlier post .... 

snip "By the way has anyone else seen the article in the 2004 summer issue of the Herpetological Bulletin on D. truncatus? The author indicates that this species coexists just fine with arboreal species such as D. ventrimalculatus. "endsnip


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> BUT, it is a common question asked by beginners whom are not yet familiar with the behaviors of the animals. Once you've been around them long enough, you'll know intuitively what's safe and what's not. Intuitively you know it's probably safer not to risk cross breeding or stress when you have important breeders.


Zoos are also not trying to breed the frogs in the multispecies exhibits.. and if people are curious the average visitor spends somewhere around 30 seconds per exhibit... 

The problem with this whole topic is that is has transcended into the realm of dogma.. 
Is is possible? the answer is yes under certain circumstances and certain conditions with certain species (I am speaking about only dendrobatids now...). 
Is is always desirable? The answer is no and in most cases is contraindicated. 

Ed


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Ed said:


> The problem with this whole topic is that is has transcended into the realm of dogma..
> Is is possible? the answer is yes under certain circumstances and certain conditions with certain species (I am speaking about only dendrobatids now...).
> Is is always desirable? The answer is no and in most cases is contraindicated.
> 
> Ed


Thanks for restating Ed... I think a few people got off track here. A year ago when I posted this thread my intent was to say that mixing is not GOOD... not that it can't be done. I'm sad that several very experienced people decided to turn this into a "it can be done, but..." thread rather than dealing with tthe simple and indeniable FACT that I posted and was the reason that I abandoned this tread back then. Once again for anyone who is confused... yes, mixing CAN be done, but it is not GOOD. Thanks Ed for helping to bring back he focus.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

My frogs(leucs and az.)are doing well, though they have only been together for a couple of months and I have no plans to breed them. I have not had any problems but I'm keeping a close eye on them. They are always out and about. 

I'm beginner so I can't recommend it, at least not until I get some more time under my belt.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

To me it still boils down to opinions. I don't know that anyone can say definitively whether it is "good" or "bad" without introducing opinions and dogma. Obviously if done poorly or haphazardly (but again this is defined by opinion) animals can die and that is definitively bad. Even if done properly (again opinion but can be backed with personal experience) no one can ask the animals whether or not they are happy. If the animals are apparently healthy and alive it's mostly opinion and conjecture as to whether the animals are in a "bad" or "good" situation. 

Let's be honest, compared to living free in the rainforest can any of us say that our frogs are not already in a "bad" situation?

I will give you this, for a beginner I will agree mixed tanks are probably not the best place to start, but it is still just an opinion.

That is my opinion as someone with experience with mixed species tanks.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I found this on Herpetologic.net

A mixed species terrarium is possible. Remember each species inhabit a characteristic "micro-niche"; such as terrestrial wet and cool, OR terrestrial dry and warm, OR arboreal within a bromeliad and dry. Also each species may be bold and territorial, or bold and social, or shy and recluse. Furthermore, each individual within a species can be bold, timid, or down right schizoaffective. So in designing a mix species tank you need to plan specifically for the needs of each species beforehand. 

In addition, you need to provide more space and "micro-niches" to support a mixed species environment. You also should not put particularly shy species with bold species, especially if both utilize the same "micro-niche" requirements and space. You need to feed more and be more observant. If an individual frog is looking thin, it will need to be removed in order to prevent demise. Also, when introducing frogs together, make sure they have been quarantined especially if from different sources. They should also be similar in size if they inhabit similar niches in the terrarium. 

For those that want to set-up an "indigenous terrarium", here are a few brief suggestions. Such terrariums start with finding a variety of indigenous plants from the area you choose to recreate. Then you create the niches necessary to house the species of frogs you choose. For example, if you wish to do a "Costa Rican Vivarium" you would create a vivarium for Green & Black auratus, Phyllobates lugubris and Blue Jean pumilio to thrive together. If you decided on a "Guyanan exhibit", you could keep tinctorius with ventrimaculatus. For Brazil, galactonotus with Brazil-nut thumbnail frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> To me it still boils down to opinions. I don't know that anyone can say definitively whether it is "good" or "bad" without introducing opinions and dogma..


Agreed. However this is going to be a perennial problem when a topic has been infiltrated by lots of dogma. 



rmelancon said:


> no one can ask the animals whether or not they are happy. If the animals are apparently healthy and alive it's mostly opinion and conjecture as to whether the animals are in a "bad" or "good" situation.


Just to stir the pot here a little how does one define "happy" with respect to the frogs? 

Ed


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Can frogs be happy?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

> Just to stir the pot here a little how does one define "happy" with respect to the frogs?


Exactly, without using anthropomorphisms it's not possible. It's been suggested that happy = alive and breeding, but that's an opinion. My best guess on the whole topic is that "as nature intended it" may be the best way to determine "happy" on a universal level.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Which leads to another question, how does nature intend it to be?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> > Just to stir the pot here a little how does one define "happy" with respect to the frogs?
> 
> 
> Exactly, without using anthropomorphisms it's not possible. It's been suggested that happy = alive and breeding, but that's an opinion. My best guess on the whole topic is that "as nature intended it" may be the best way to determine "happy" on a universal level.


Alive and breeding are insufficient determinants for how well an animal is doing under a set of conditions. There are multiple documentations for many taxa that animals will breed under substandard conditions as long as the proper triggers are presented. 
The third item that needs to be added to this mix is life span (median and maximal). Having two of the three is insufficient to determine if conditions are optimal for the animals involved. You need all three but the third is the hardest to determine as it can take years before the these variables can be known. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bocomo said:


> Which leads to another question, how does nature intend it to be?



As close to the wild type with normal behaviors as possible. 

Ed


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I will state that I fully agree with Ed's statement


> Is is possible? the answer is yes under certain circumstances and certain conditions with certain species (I am speaking about only dendrobatids now...).
> Is is always desirable? The answer is no and in most cases is contraindicated.


 This is a true expression of "fact" as far as I see it.

The problem is maybe with the "GOOD" part. As was asked, what is "GOOD" compared to "BAD"? Maybe the statement is more like Rich Frye's signature, "_*Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed species tanks. There is no known benefit to the FROG at all with either."*_ So yes they can be mixed under controled circumstances, but there is no know benefit to the frogs.

So if we say, GOOD = BENEFIT TO THE FROG, than yes, it is not good I suppose. I clarify I have no scientific fact to back that up.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> I will state that I fully agree with Ed's statement
> 
> 
> > Is is possible? the answer is yes under certain circumstances and certain conditions with certain species (I am speaking about only dendrobatids now...).
> ...


I have been avoiding this argument.... the problem with this analogy is that for some of the "parasites" we don't know if there are commensual effects or not. 
One of the parasites that is often treated may actually be of benefit in the frogs... I speak of pin worms... in reptiles pinworms are being shown to be of benefit to the hosts as they enhance the digestion by mechanically breaking down ingested items allowing to greater absorbtion of nutrients. (this is mainly in herbivores but may also be true for animals consuming a large amount of chitin.. ) 

Ed


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

> So if we say, GOOD = BENEFIT TO THE FROG, than yes, it is not good I suppose.


To be honest I hesitated in posting that. I recently read an older post where an experianced frogger had kept manny different frogs in conditions that many would say would never work. He stated though that all of his frogs were VERY bold in that setting, even traditionaly shy ones. In that case it might be a benefit. I didn't post this before because I don't know the guy or if the story is true, so I certainly would not want to claime that as a benefit.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Past Rich Frye comment:

"But here is a real quick answer for you alone.There are no beneficial parasites know for darts. If your darts have parasites (Do you know if they do? Did you test and qauarantine?) when going into a viv they have contaminated the viv until it is broke down and cleansed . Parasites (there are many) can do everything from little of nothing to kill all of your frogs. That person you see walking down the street with herpes will not die, may 'look happy and healthy' but has herpes. That person does not want uncurable herpes. Coccidia is not curable in darts and can cause MUCH more damage than herpes. Need I go on about the guy walking down the street with HIV? "

I don't see the analogies either.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Let me stress one key phrase, and I imagine Rich can offer his proverbial tuppence:



> There are no beneficial parasites *known*(my emphasis) for darts


And as Ed has indicated, there may indeed be some positive effects to certain parasites, which all seems hopelessly counterintuitive to me. 

Jason


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> which all seems hopelessly counterintuitive to me.


Ha ha, ditto. Way over my head.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Just don't see the analogy with mixed species and parasites.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I suggest we all go look up the word symbiosis and realize that more and more symbiotic relationships are discovered every year. We have symbiotic relationships in our own bodies. Anyone here eat yogurt to improve their digestive system? Guess what? You are purposely consuming what would have been considered parasites not long ago. Here's the problem. The very definition of parasite means an organism that lives in symbiosis with another and doest the host *harm*. Other forms of symbiosis are commensalism - where one organism benefits from the relationship and the other neither benefits or is harmed. And mutualism, where both partners in the relationship benefit. So yes, all parasistes are harmful. The problem is that we know very little about the actual symbiotic relationships of many of the creatures. Yes, we know about the harmful part, but it has only been very, very recently that it has been discovered there can be another side to this relationship. And many of them are likely to be like E. coli, a beneficial symbiont when it resides in the lower intestine, and its populations are "normal". But it becomes a parasite or disease agent when those under other circumstances.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Just don't see the analogy with mixed species and parasites.


Well, let's see if I can help out. What exactly is it that you do not understand. There are no known benefits to the frog with either. 


All speculation and guessing aside, my signature stands. Pinworms have not been found in Darts, to my limited knowledge but as soon as beneficial parasites are found and proven I will change my stance and signature. And again, what most are not bringing up is the number and volume of parasites in CB fecals vs. WC. Wild caught being much, much smaller in number and volume than in captivity. Numbers passed to me from my brother who has actual hands on info.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> And again, what most are not bringing up is the number and volume of parasites in CB fecals vs. WC. Wild caught being much, much smaller in number and volume than in captivity. Numbers passed to me from my brother who has actual hands on info.


Now that is interesting- higher parasite infestation in CB specimens? I'm curious, has your brother hypothesized as to what conditions/practices lead to a higher parasite load in CB darts?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> > And again, what most are not bringing up is the number and volume of parasites in CB fecals vs. WC. Wild caught being much, much smaller in number and volume than in captivity. Numbers passed to me from my brother who has actual hands on info.
> 
> 
> Now that is interesting- higher parasite infestation in CB specimens? I'm curious, has your brother hypothesized as to what conditions/practices lead to a higher parasite load in CB darts?


When you have parasites that can and do directly reinfect their hosts standing around in a small cube of their own poop is certainly one way.
Where exactly these parasites come from and how they entered a viv is not always certain. Lack of proper quarantine is only one way. That would include cross contamination between two (or more) different species with different parasites.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

That makes sense, thanks Rich.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Rich Frye said:


> When you have parasites that can and do directly reinfect their hosts standing around in a small cube of their own poop is certainly one way.


Exactly. Ever see cow dairy? In or tanks we lack the natural elements that would limit this, size (larger area to move around compared to small), lack of rain fall to wash it away.


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

Ed said:


> rmelancon said:
> 
> 
> > > Just to stir the pot here a little how does one define "happy" with respect to the frogs?
> ...


Ed, That sounds like my first marriage ...
To carry the original anthropomorphism on, although it was a very luxurious "cage," the reason I was not "happy" was because I felt confined in my ability to participate in my "natural" behaviors. 

I've heard/read others use the phrase "close to nature" to describe optimum enclosures. My dog is happy as hell to get a bowl full of dog chow and to sleep at my feet - about as far from nature as you can get, but also enthusiastically sniffs out squirrels and rabbits when we go for a walk. 

So, when we toss the word "happy" around, do we mean to provide our captives with as much opportunity to participate in their natural behaviors as possible, while still easing the struggle for survival that often leads to mortality? To provide them with enough of the variability of their natural environment to allow them to self-determine their routine, but also provide them with a steady diet that would be an uncertainty in nature?

Or is that just what makes us happy?
Jim (edited for spelling)


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I don't know, my frogs seem pretty 'happy' even thought they are two different spieces in the same tank. Just think for a moment, these frogs would be lonely without another spiecies hanging around. I would get bored just looking at a mirror image of myself all day. Now they are getting exposed to a whole different culture. May be I should throw in a pinata.

But seriously, if both these get along in groups would it make a difference if they are different species? I have never found any real good evidence backing your claim up. I have had more PMs stating that they have mixed tanks that do fine. Yet no one has outright said, "I have tried it, it failed, all my frogs died." I really want a good argument with examples backing up this no mixing claim that it does not work.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Yet no one has outright said, "I have tried it, it failed, all my frogs died." I really want a good argument with examples backing up this no mixing claim that it does not work.


Point is, it *can* work- but takes time, attention to detail, and considerable planning to work in the long term. Because it requires considerable planning and close monitoring of the individual frogs and understanding the nuances of their behavior, it's not recommended.

There is a lengthy thread by Ed Kowalski (Ed) discussing this very topic and you'll see there's more to than just hapzardly mixing species in a tank.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

What do you mean by hapzardly mixing in a tank? 

I knew it was frowned upon but I did not just throw them together because I though it would be 'cool'.


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## Obliv79 (Oct 31, 2007)

Don't waste your time here you words are falling upon deaf ears. Every post this individual (not naming names) has posted always leans towards the conflictive nature of the person and seems to want to argue every point brought to their attention. So my opinion is to let them find out themselves unfortunately nothing we say can or will stop them. With that being said I will not post on this topic again


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

How long until this thread gets shut down?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> How long until this thread gets shut down?


...and who said intent was hard to guess...


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Rich, I did not even start this thread. 

Whats wrong for standing up for myself and my frogs? I like debate, discussion, and arguments and obviously many others do too.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Rich, I did not even start this thread.
> 
> Whats wrong for standing up for myself and my frogs? I like debate, discussion, and arguments and obviously many others do too.


Not worth my time. I'm outa this one.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

No evidence to back it up huh?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Bocomo said:


> I knew it was frowned upon but I did not just throw them together because I though it would be 'cool'.


Actually, you stated in a previous thread that was the exact reason you did it. Why is it Bocomo that you feel the need to argue a point that virtually nobody agrees with you on? Do you just like to argue or what? If you go back to the first page you will notice that I started this thread, and I started it LONG before you were around here and probably before you knew anything about darts so don't pat yourself on the back thinking that YOU drove me to post this... this has always been a problem... it's just your the first person to argue the point and never let it die. Be happy with your tank if you are and leave it at that, but don't come into every thread that has anything to do with mixing and try to hijack it so you can get your thrills by contradicting what experienced froggers have shown time and time again to be best for the frogs. I've heard of people that get their kicks by arguing, but this is ridiculous. If you are real man (or woman, not sure if you are male or female) then buck up and just let it go and quit trying to create a problem.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> [. Pinworms have not been found in Darts, to my limited knowledge but as soon as beneficial parasites are found and proven I will change my stance and signature. And again, what most are not bringing up is the number and volume of parasites in CB fecals vs. WC. Wild caught being much, much smaller in number and volume than in captivity. Numbers passed to me from my brother who has actual hands on info.


Rich, pinworms are not uncommon in anurans... 
see http://armi.usgs.gov/SEARMI2004Report.pdf 

Give the wide spread distribution (multiple continents) of pinworms in a wide variety of animals (including amphibians) its a little unreasonable to asssume that there are none that infect dart frogs simply because they haven't been found yet..... 

For a article documenting a beneficial parasite in tadpoles see http://news.ufl.edu/2004/11/08/helpfulworms/ 

Ed 


Ed


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Ed said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > [. Pinworms have not been found in Darts, to my limited knowledge but as soon as beneficial parasites are found and proven I will change my stance and signature. And again, what most are not bringing up is the number and volume of parasites in CB fecals vs. WC. Wild caught being much, much smaller in number and volume than in captivity. Numbers passed to me from my brother who has actual hands on info.
> ...


Ed,
Any idea at what point pinworms will show up if they are in our darts? Or what extra testing it may take for them to show up?
Any idea of what kind of tads they were using? 
Given that the only cited 'benefit' of the parasites is a slightly quicker morphing I would opt out on the worms. And since we don't have any long term effect research done that I can read we don't know any side effects of these worms.

Rich


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Rich,

It is interesting when you look into the literature to note that there can be different pin worms in tadpoles and the adult anurans.. apparently when the frogs metamorph they expel the pinworms that were infecting them as tadpoles and aquire new ones as adults... 

Well give that pinworms are members of the Oxyuroidea and oxyurids are known from dendrobatids.... 
(see Description of Cosmocerca longispicula sp. nov. (Nematoda: Cosmocercidae), a parasite of a dendrobatid frog from Martinique, French Antilles ) 
and as near as I can tell... _Cosmocerca_ are a type of pinworm (see Studies on the life cycle of Cosmocerca ... 1959, a common oxyurid nematode parasite of Bufo viridis in Kashmir) 

I have to disagree with you with respect to the rapid metamorphosis point. The reason the tadpoles metamorph more rapidly is because the worms are breaking down the cell walls of the plant materials increasing digestability of the food and increasing nutritent availability to the tadpoles. Anything that increases food availability to the tadpoles is an obvious benefit to the tadpole... 
Increased nutritient availabilty is a benefit.... 

The citation is found here Pryor. G.S. & Bjorndal, K.A. "Effects of the nematode Gyrinicola batrachiensis on development, gut morphology, and fermentation in bullfrog tadpoles (Rana catesbeiana): a novel mutualism". J. Exp. Zool. 2005. 303A: 704-712 

and if you are going to be dissmissive of the findings because it involved Bullfrog tadpoles I will want to see the proof of why the digestive process in non-egg feeding dendrobatid tadpoles is different. 

Ed 

Ed


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Very interesting Ed, 
Not being dissmissive at all. I just found the paper to be a bit lacking in info. I am sure the digestive process would be very similar and would wonder why the worms are not then found in more tads. I would still be interested in knowing if there were other side effects of either tad worms or the adult worms. Any literature on this?

Rich


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

jehitch said:


> I've heard/read others use the phrase "close to nature" to describe optimum enclosures. My dog is happy as hell to get a bowl full of dog chow and to sleep at my feet - about as far from nature as you can get, but also enthusiastically sniffs out squirrels and rabbits when we go for a walk.


Ten thousand years of coevolving with humans will do that to an animal. At this point, I would say sleeping at your feet is as close to the dog's natural environment as it gets.



Rich Frye said:


> Given that the only cited 'benefit' of the parasites is a slightly quicker morphing I would opt out on the worms. And since we don't have any long term effect research done that I can read we don't know any side effects of these worms.


You need to look at this within an ecological context. Many, many anurans lay eggs or deposit tadpoles in ephemeral pools of water. The success or failure of those tadpoles often depends on their ability to completely metamorphosis before the pool dries up. Anuran species have developed some extreme strategies, such as cannibilism, to speed the development process to win this race against time. Within this context, I'd say pinworms could potentially be a life or death ally for some tadpoles which is not a trivial benefit.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

bbrock said:


> You need to look at this within an ecological context. Many, many anurans lay eggs or deposit tadpoles in ephemeral pools of water. The success or failure of those tadpoles often depends on their ability to completely metamorphosis before the pool dries up. Anuran species have developed some extreme strategies, such as cannibilism, to speed the development process to win this race against time. Within this context, I'd say pinworms could potentially be a life or death ally for some tadpoles which is not a trivial benefit.


I agree. In the wild it could be a big benefit and in captivity at least some benefit. But I would still like to see further research for 'down the road issues'. And while this is a HUGE jump up from talking about pinworms in swine we have yet to make that jump to show a parasite in Darts that benefits a Dart frog. Not saying that a parasite can't or won't be found, but I would have expected that the parasite would have at least been found in the Dart, with the Dart as some sort of host. One of the reasons the word 'known' is in my signature.

Rich


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I think we need to clarify that the Florida study found roundworms/nematodes, as the beneficial agent, not necessarily pinworms.  I believe that nematodes are well represented in Dendrobatid fecals samples, right? I don't see where the article specifically states pinworm (which is a specific type of roundworm - no?)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brent,
the study listed Gyrinicola batrachiensis as the worm that created the benefit. This is a pinworm/Oxyurida which are types of nematodes. 
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrinicola_batrachiensis for more information.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> I agree. In the wild it could be a big benefit and in captivity at least some benefit. But I would still like to see further research for 'down the road issues'. And while this is a HUGE jump up from talking about pinworms in swine we have yet to make that jump to show a parasite in Darts that benefits a Dart frog. Not saying that a parasite can't or won't be found, but I would have expected that the parasite would have at least been found in the Dart, with the Dart as some sort of host. One of the reasons the word 'known' is in my signature.
> 
> Rich


I am not sure where swine came into this picture... but when looking at the action of pinworm in multiple taxa (everything from lizards to tortoises to ruminants...) they increase the availability of nutrients by assisting in the mechanincal breakdown of food and now another species has been shown to do so in tadpoles.... by which it can increase the amount of calories by as much as 20%..... 
Its hard to see where this is a negative for the animals involved... for a long time, pinworms were treated as a problem and many vets treated for them under the assumption that any worm living in the digestive tract is causing harm and damage to the frog... 
And as I noted above... pinworms are known from dendrobatids.... given the track record of pinworms in other animals, I think the proof is now to prove that they are harmful..... 

Ed


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

So to sum up...
There was a study showing a benefit from pinworms in bullfrog tads. Pinworms that may get expelled from the tad when morphing. There have been pinworms found in a dendrobatid relative of Darts in the French Antilles. If at some time there are pinworms found in our Dart tads , they may benefit our tads. There have been no pinworms found in the Poison Dart frogs we work with in our hobby , as of yet.
And from my reading, severe pinworm infestations, as with pretty much all parasites, can have negative (harmful) effects on the infected host.


Rich


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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

bocomo wrote...

Yet no one has outright said, "I have tried it, it failed, all my frogs died."

Mine did. First getting into the hobby the vendor I purchased from was more money hungry than he was caring for his frogs. He told me it was alright for the 5 I purchased from him to be mixed in a 20L. Those species included 2 green and bronze auratus, 2 six point auratus and a brazilian yellow head tinc. (Obviously not knowing about Dendroboard back then I thought this was alright.) They all died within a few weeks due to such high levels of stress. 

You can make my past experience the first backed up case now where things went downhill. By the way, the vendor is not a member on the board. The other main purpose of stressing mixing to newbies is to get it into their head right when they start that it isn't a good idea. You don't want them to open up this thread and interpret what they read as it being alright to mix without any side effects. They then carry it out and have a bad experience from it (like I did) and almost quit darts permanently because of the devastating loss.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

frogman824 said:


> The other main purpose of stressing mixing to newbies is to get it into their head right when they start that it isn't a good idea. You don't want them to open up this thread and interpret what they read as it being alright to mix without any side effects. *They then carry it out and have a bad experience from it (like I did) and almost quit darts permanently because of the devastating loss.*


And in the end this is the reason why we shouldn't tout mixing as being OK for anyone without the experience to do it right. Pinworms and bullforg tads aside that is the reason for this thread. Thanks for the story... hopefully some will listen.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I'm not trying to create a problem, and no I won't be buck it up(I'm not sure what buck it up means). A buck is a deer, and the verb buck is in reference to horse.

I like participating in discussion and that is what I thought was happening with this thread. I thought that you brought it up again because you like discussing the matter. I let it go this time because I'm over discussing that matter.

I hope that once I have 'experience' that I may post and share my experience and perhaps give advice concerning mixing.

If your original intentions were to discourage mixing there is a sticky thread in the Care Sheets section that accomplishes that well. 

Frogman, thanks for post, first time I run across someone to back up the 'claim'. I read through many past thread on this topic yet no a whole lot of evidence.
I will enjoy my frogs and all the controversy that comes with it.

P.S. one of luecs in the tank started calling, the deep end may be looming.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> I'm not trying to create a problem, and no I won't be buck it up(I'm not sure what buck it up means). A buck is a deer, and the verb buck is in reference to horse.
> 
> I like participating in discussion and that is what I thought was happening with this thread. I thought that you brought it up again because you like discussing the matter. I let it go this time because I'm over discussing that matter.
> 
> ...


Pinworms and tads aside, yes. And whatever nasties mixing may bring....
Since you are looking for mixing failures and "evidence to back it up huh?", here you go. I seem to remember writing about these experiences before and did not read this full thread over again, but if I somehow forgot to mention in the thread, the terribilis noted all died within two years of mixing with intermedius. That is not usual for me , BTW.
Enjoy Bocomo.

http://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php?t=2789


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> I'm not trying to create a problem
> 
> If your original intentions were to discourage mixing there is a sticky thread in the Care Sheets section that accomplishes that well.
> 
> P.S. one of luecs in the tank started calling, the deep end may be looming.


? :shock:


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Rich, thanks for link. I would have never guessed you mixed frogs. I don't feel so bad now.

Thanks for taking my phrases out of context!


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

? :shock: ?

Please actually read the thread I linked before you thank me or feel good about what you are doing.
How is the context of what you posted changed in any way? I just removed the 'fluff'.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

[/quote]How is the context of what you posted changed in any way? I just removed the 'fluff'.


> I laughed, your quote is funny.
> 
> Again, thanks for the link, I read the post.
> 
> ...


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Now, I feel that I got something in common with a experienced frogger like yourself. I gots to earn all the respect I can get


Just wondering after getting this 'proof' you asked for and all of the suggestions from those in this hobby longer than a couple months, how do you process the information? It (your method) seems counterintuitive to me......


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

How do I process the information? That's a good question. I have no clue. It just happens. Just call it the Bocomo method.


Further explain why the Bocomo method is counterintuitive.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> How do I process the information? That's a good question. I have no clue. It just happens. Just call it the Bocomo method.
> 
> 
> Further explain why the Bocomo method is counterintuitive.




coun·ter·in·tu·i·tive 
–adjective counter to what intuition would lead one to expect: The direction we had to follow was counterintuitive—we had to go north first before we went south. 

adj. Contrary to what intuition or common sense would indicate: "Scientists made clear what may at first seem counterintuitive, that the capacity to be pleasant toward a fellow creature is ... hard work" (

adjective 
contrary to what common sense would suggest 




Any of the above works for me. 
But Rich's definitions would be; 
To zig when everyone else says to Zag.
To throw away perfectly good expert advise.
To go against the norm when the norm has been proven.
To do something for one's own pleasure, ignoring possible or probable downfalls to come.
To go blindly where others have set nasty precedence.
To mix.

I can not see having any further conversation with you bocomo. You will not be persuaded so good luck with your viv.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I may not be that passionate about the hobby as you.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Die.... DIe..... DIE!!!! Why won't this thread just DIE!!! Long and far away for the reasons it was started...


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I will let it die. When rich posted that link to dart den I started reading some more his posts and discussions on that site. I was very surprised. There is a lot of drama on dart den and I can see why it is not needed on this forum.


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## Chano (Oct 29, 2007)

I was thinking about this today. I thought of a way that we as a group can discourage mixing by new people in the hobby and yet they can still get the multicolored tank they want. I know someone has to have though about this before but i am very suprised in all the angry mixing debates i have seen since i have been here nobody has suggested it. Instead of jumping down peoples throats about mixing (which tends to happen a lot around here and don't get me wrong i can totally see why, i just think its a little harsh) Why don't people suggest to these would be mixers to get frogs that have a variability of color within the same morph. I have seen lots of talk on frogs with lots of variation in color within the same breeding pair. This would be a win/win situation people would get a multi color tank nobody would have to get angry or all fired up about mixing and most importantly it would be a better environment for the frogs. I mean for the most part we are all on the same team here. In the words of a severely pummeled guy "Can't we all just get along?" He got his ass kicked by a bunch of racist cops and he was willing to encourage people to try to be good to each other. Shouldn't we at least try to explain to new people why we don't mix and offer a reasonable alternitive so they still get what they want. (without telling us to pissoff and mixing anyhow) After all there is a lot of stubborn people who will do things just because you tell them it wont work. If it is explained to them that it can work with enough experience but there is a much easier/better alternitive i think that may get through much better and will make the community seem more friendly as a whole.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Just wanted to let everyone know that my frogs are still going strong after all this time. As a reminder I placed two different species into one tank. They frogs went on to reproduce (had so many I had to start culling them), although I never witnessed any cross breeding.

Ask me Anything!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

OK. Why? 

Never mind. 

s


Bocomo said:


> Just wanted to let everyone know that my frogs are still going strong after all this time. As a reminder I placed two different species into one tank. They frogs went on to reproduce (had so many I had to start culling them), although I never witnessed any cross breeding.
> 
> Ask me Anything!


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