# Frog Ethics for a Retail Location



## Alias (Feb 7, 2011)

Hello all,

I own a specialty pet store that mostly focuses on reptiles and other exotics. Because of the controversial questions asked I decline to name what store and Im posting this as a different name then I usually go by. I hate the secrecy, but for the good of the frogs and my customers I want to get my peer's opinions but I can't afford any backlash from those who don't agree with the conversation. 

I'll also say that I do have many years personally keeping frogs and these questions are purely related to a retail setting. And without further ado, here we go:

1. At a retail store how much space should be given per frog? Obviously we give them as spacious an environment as we can, but this is temporary housing and its not plausible to profitably go by the "200 sq inches / frog." On one hand, the frogs are checked daily and any having problems would be separated, but I don't want to give novices an unrealistic view of what they can have, or make advanced hobbyist think we are overcrowding our animals. I think at most we have 10-12 juvi frogs in a well planted 20 gallon.

2. Is it ever appropriate to have mixed line/species tanks? For similar space considerations can similarly sized "compatible" species be kept together? Obviously it would be challenging to carry 10+ varieties/species and have each segregated in 20+ gallon tanks; especially if we have only a few individuals each species. These would only be juvi frogs so there is no worry of hybridizing. Currently everything we keep is separate except some blue auratus are kept with some Costa Rican green auratus.

3. What is the most ethical way to respond when customers ask about "mixed species" tanks. Many customers want the frogs primarily to have a mixed tank. As many zoos and aquariums (and hobbiest on this board) have shown, there are right ways and wrong ways to have a healthy mixed tank. While I will deny a sale if I think the frog won't be cared for properly, I don't think I'd deny it just for going into a mixed tank, and I feel its only benefits the frog to make sure the customer does it the "right way" or closest to it. What do you guys think?

4. If a customer or breeder produces hybrid frogs, is it alright to sell them, fully labeled as a hybrid, and of what lines if known? 

I'm sure I'll have more questions later. Obviously we want to balance the well being of the frogs, the well being of the hobby, frog availability to our customers, and still be profitable. We also want to maintain a reputation as a responsible frog retail location.

Any comments about what you've seen in retail stores that you did or didn't like would also be helpful. (no names are needed, this is for example, not critiquing) 

Thanks for the help!


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## LRobb88 (Dec 16, 2008)

I wish I had the time to put my two cents in right now but I'm off to work. I will say that it's nice to see retail owners considering the ethics of what they're doing and asking these tough questions that can truly affect their profits and overhead. Ultimately, though, to have a sustainable hobby where more and more people come back (to your store) to buy frogs, it's important that they know the proper ways to keep them which includes uncrowded tanks as well as single species tanks if at all possible. 

Good questions, I'm sure you'll get an excellent response out of this community.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Mixing juvis can spread parasites and disease as can putting froglets in a tank that formerly housed froglets from other species(pairs).

Selling hybrids is always putting out the possibility of muddying species or morphs represented in the hobby since people still breed unknowns (if they're cheap) instead of going back to the source to breed as hi up on the filial line(generation) as possible. 

I used to say that if a customer is going to mix species.morphs in a tank, cull all eggs and have another tank set up just in case one isn't doing well. Also get fecals done on all frogs and clean them before they go in the mixed tank. You don't want one frog to have coccidia, one to have hookworm and one to have lungworm and when you throw them in together they now have coccidia, hookworm and lungworm and won't last long. Also, always watch them feed for a while and make sure they get equal amounts of food and no one is getting bullied.

Also, I don't think you can sign up under 2 accounts here and use an alias. You should check the user agreement.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

1 As much room as possible. You dont want your customers getting the impression that 20 frogs in a 10 gallon tank is the norm. These frogs can be territorial. You may start out with froglets, but who's to say that they will all be bought before adulthood? Then aggression and stress could start up, complicating things.

2 NO. If you are trying to get people into the hobby and help the hobby remain long term, dont mix species or populations. You dont want your customers thinking that this is like keeping tropical fish where you mix and match whatever will fit in the tank.

3 Tell them that its not a good idea. Im surprised that you only seem to see hybrids as the end result of mixing darts. What about chytrid? Or parasites? 
On a side note: Are you getting at least 3 fecals done on every frog that comes in before placing it on the sales floor? Or at least giving them the 'shot gun treatment' (treating every animal as if it has parasites/bacterial infections giving it treatment for them.) As well as fully sterilizing tanks between frogs? Making sure there is no cross contamination between herps in general? Ive bought way too many herps from "specialty exotic stores" that were loaded with parasites due to the inability of employees to sanitize tanks or screen for illness to buy from one again. One of them even has a few awesome reef tanks set up that the employees love to show off. They also brag about their ability to get almost any kind of herp you could want. Another store sold me a leopard gecko that they promised had been to a vet and the fecals came back clean. I got fecals done a week later and it was loaded with pin worms and hook worms. Neither store had mixed species tanks at the time though.

4 Not if you truely want the hobby to continue as it is now.

I am sorry if this offends you, but I really dont like the idea of you hiding behind a fake account to ask basic questions that could easily be answered by spending 15 minutes in the beginners section.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

I think for your sale stock it is ok to keep them in small tanks, but have a couple fully decked out tanks to show the possibilities. That way you can also sell more peripherals like misting pumps, plants, leaf litter, etc.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

1. At a retail store how much space should be given per frog? Obviously we give them as spacious an environment as we can, but this is temporary housing and its not plausible to profitably go by the "200 sq inches / frog." On one hand, the frogs are checked daily and any having problems would be separated, but I don't want to give novices an unrealistic view of what they can have, or make advanced hobbyist think we are overcrowding our animals. I think at most we have 10-12 juvi frogs in a well planted 20 gallon.

*I would maintain several easily sterilized, basic setups to house any frogs for sale (20L with a sphagnum substrate, for instance). These can be completely emptied and cleaned after one group of frogs is sold, and before another is added to the terrarium. Then have a few fully set up display vivs, properly stocked (maybe 20H with pairs of tincs/auratus/leucs) to show customers proper long-term housing.*

2. Is it ever appropriate to have mixed line/species tanks? For similar space considerations can similarly sized "compatible" species be kept together? Obviously it would be challenging to carry 10+ varieties/species and have each segregated in 20+ gallon tanks; especially if we have only a few individuals each species. These would only be juvi frogs so there is no worry of hybridizing. Currently everything we keep is separate except some blue auratus are kept with some Costa Rican green auratus.

*Realistically, it would be a good idea to keep froglets from different sources separate. The concerns posted by other members are valid ones.* 

3. What is the most ethical way to respond when customers ask about "mixed species" tanks. Many customers want the frogs primarily to have a mixed tank. As many zoos and aquariums (and hobbiest on this board) have shown, there are right ways and wrong ways to have a healthy mixed tank. While I will deny a sale if I think the frog won't be cared for properly, I don't think I'd deny it just for going into a mixed tank, and I feel its only benefits the frog to make sure the customer does it the "right way" or closest to it. What do you guys think?

*Mixed species tanks may work when frogs are young, but as they age mixed tanks typically cause the death of at least some of the inhabitants. Can it be done? Yes, but it is much easier to keep species/morphs in their own, separate vivaria. It is also much easier to successfully breed the frogs this way - watching their breeding and parental behaviors is one of the neatest parts of the hobby, something that is lost more or less in mixed tanks. Maybe mention your willingness to buy back healthy offspring?*

4. If a customer or breeder produces hybrid frogs, is it alright to sell them, fully labeled as a hybrid, and of what lines if known? 

*I would not have anything to do with hybrids if you wish to remain a respected dart frog seller.*

The 'duplicate account' issue is being handled.


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## Frogilicious (Aug 25, 2007)

I had worked in a local pet shop for 3 years. I spent most of my time in the 'reptile' section; feeding, sanitizing, and learning about the animals that we kept. I will say one of the hardest things to get through a customer's skull was the necessities they should buy for the animal, and the proper living environment. It was frustrating for me to have to explain that the conditions we keep our animals in is only temporary, and setup to be easily cleaned and sanitized. I found that after we had setup a 'show' tank as an example of proper housing, that most customers got the message a bit easier. With that said, I would suggest either having show piece tanks, or at least pictures of proper housing. We also made care sheets to provide information on the animals that we had in our store.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

zBrinks said:


> *I would not have anything to do with hybrids if you wish to remain a respected dart frog seller.*


Good point


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## MountaineerLegion (Apr 8, 2008)

Not in response to the OP but to others who have posted and I'm sure will:

1. I don't think you should keep darts unless you have a PHd and several decades of post doctoral research in each species you intend to keep.

2. You should not keep darts unless you can provide as much habitat as they would have available in the wild.

3. In addition to your Phd you must also have a DVM, a fully equipped and staffed OR on call 24/7/365 just in case your $25 dollar frog needs $50,000 in emergency care.

4. You must have at least 4000 posts on this board. You must state your opinion as fact beyond question and berate anyone who doesn't meet your standards.

5. Each frog must fill out a 100 page questionnaire before it is bred to insure a DEEP level of compatibility with its mate.

6. A menu must be presented to each frog prior to feeding so that the frog can select the food it is in the mood for and to make sure it is prepared the way the frog likes it.

7. Any potential frog keeper must be blessed by each and every frog keeper and must follow any other rules they may have even when the contradict each other. 

8. All of these hard and fast rules must be obeyed in spite of the fact that no business or hobbyist will be able to afford to keep frogs. It does not matter that this will create the perception that frogs can not possibly be kept as pets. It does not matter that younger kids will not have the opportunity to observe these frogs in person and may one day may aspire to become biologist because of a seed planted in their heads when they were young and go on to do great things in biology that may help wild species. It does not matter that wild populations are dwindling and privately kept frogs may be the only examples left some time down the road. And lastly, it does not matter that you disagree with me because my way is the only way. I will now yield the soapbox to someone else. Peace.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

MountaineerLegion said:


> Not in response to the OP but to others who have posted and I'm sure will:
> 
> 1. I don't think you should keep darts unless you have a PHd and several decades of post doctoral research in each species you intend to keep.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a jibe at criticism itself---thanks for the double entendre. It was very amusing. (Obviously, it is to be understood that the statements here were made in jest and not seriously, and mainly run contrary to good ethics.)


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## Alias (Feb 7, 2011)

Okapi said:


> I am sorry if this offends you, but I really dont like the idea of you hiding behind a fake account to ask basic questions that could easily be answered by spending 15 minutes in the beginners section.


I'm here to get others opinions, so no offense is taken. I don't like the idea of having a "fake" account either, but I've seen some people get flamed pretty hard for simply asking questions and I don't want to adversely affect our business or reputation simply because we're trying to improve ourselves. If we want to get technical with the UA, my wife used her info to open this account, so we still have one account/person. 

Certainly there is a lot of knowledge and info in the beginners section and I have read though there multiple times but I didn't see any threads specifically about frogs in a retail setting. While some may argue that there should be no difference in pet care between a retail set-up and a long term set-up, the economics simply would mean almost no pets would be sold, and that goes for dog & cat, bird, fish or reptile stores. 

This thread was started to ask about the standards the community would expect from its local specialty pet store.


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

The issue that I see is, retail is housing for sale, not breeding.
With that said, house the number that live without noticable stress, and provide copious hiding places, with still being able to show the animals.
This is such a loaded question. When selling to the public keep it simple so they can do it. The average consumer does not visit boards, they look to you for guidance. Reason being you keep your doors open, while still growing your business. 
Business, for the sake of living off it, it not the same as a hobbiest. The store wants the person who needs them, not the guy who says they can get it cheaper off the internet.
"Sound Familiar" 

keep the animals well fed and stess free, decent size tanks, and always promote to the customer use the largest tank they can handle and afford.
Daryl


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## MountaineerLegion (Apr 8, 2008)

I have no problem with criticism. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone is entitled to freedom of speech. And just as everyone is entitled to those I am entitled to form an opinion of them based on what they say....and I'm entitled to express it.

My problem is really with the holier than thou attitude exhibited by zealots. I got my degree in biology and got out of the field because I felt there was no room for anyone who was not a zealot. I foolishly tried to defend myself once to a guy who stated we as a country should remove ALL non endemic species from the US....AND that tax dollars should support it...and that anyone who didn't support that position was anti environmental and had no right to claim themselves as a REAL biologist. That kind of zealotry, in my opinion, is harmful to pro environmental causes because it paints environmentalists as wackos. It is on par with spiking trees to be logged, pouring sabotaging agents into construction equipment, throwing paint on peoples clothing and ramming whaling ships.

I keep darts because I'm fascinated by them. I avail myself of any opportunity to try to turn someone who shows interest on to them and pass on as much info as I can. I generally preface it by saying there are lots of opinions on things...this is how I do it. 

What I try not to do is infringe on the rights of another based on my own convictions. I do try to call a zealot a zealot and point out the harm I believe they do. I explained why I feel I can do this in the first paragraph. Feel free to form an opinion of me. You wanna call me a hypocrite, jump on the soapbox and preach it brotha...I'm a big boy, you won't hurt my feelings. Peace.





earthfrog said:


> Sounds like a jibe at criticism itself---thanks for the double entendre. It was very amusing. (Obviously, it is to be understood that the statements here were made in jest and not seriously, and mainly run contrary to good ethics.)


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## Alias (Feb 7, 2011)

Okapi said:


> On a side note: Are you getting at least 3 fecals done on every frog that comes in before placing it on the sales floor? Or at least giving them the 'shot gun treatment' (treating every animal as if it has parasites/bacterial infections giving it treatment for them.) As well as fully sterilizing tanks between frogs? Making sure there is no cross contamination between herps in general? Ive bought way too many herps from "specialty exotic stores" that were loaded with parasites due to the inability of employees to sanitize tanks or screen for illness to buy from one again. One of them even has a few awesome reef tanks set up that the employees love to show off. They also brag about their ability to get almost any kind of herp you could want. Another store sold me a leopard gecko that they promised had been to a vet and the fecals came back clean. I got fecals done a week later and it was loaded with pin worms and hook worms. Neither store had mixed species tanks at the time though.


 So far, all of our frogs are CB from breeders I trust. I know that's not 100% fail-proof, but we monitor all of our animals for signs of parasites. We treat any wild caught animals and fully sanitize cages as animals come and go. We have been in business for many years, and other then the inevitable snake mite popping up here and there, we have never had a problem with parasites or had a single customer complaint about it. 

Unfortunately, 3 fecal per frog is unrealistic for a retail store, especially where no parasites are suspected. It is our priority for healthy animals, but we also need to have competitive prices, otherwise there is no point in carrying animals so expensive no one will buy them. I don't like "shotgun" treating everything, as treatments are often hard on the animals themselves and not enough research has been done on side effects and dosages on each individual species of reptile or amphibian. Overdosing will kill the animal, and even proper doses may cause kidney or liver damage that shortens their lifespan. These "treatments" are nothing more then specialized poisons after all. 

I will be ordering a microscope so we can do our own periodic fecal samples on all of our animals.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Alias, please respond to my PM.


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## MountaineerLegion (Apr 8, 2008)

This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. Treating every animal with antibiotics regardless of suspicion of infection is a FANTASTIC way to encourage antibiotic resistant strains...so does this help or hurt the hobby and the frogs? Not to mention the valid points brought up below by the shop keeper.



Alias said:


> So far, all of our frogs are CB from breeders I trust. I know that's not 100% fail-proof, but we monitor all of our animals for signs of parasites. We treat any wild caught animals and fully sanitize cages as animals come and go. We have been in business for many years, and other then the inevitable snake mite popping up here and there, we have never had a problem with parasites or had a single customer complaint about it.
> 
> Unfortunately, 3 fecal per frog is unrealistic for a retail store, especially where no parasites are suspected. It is our priority for healthy animals, but we also need to have competitive prices, otherwise there is no point in carrying animals so expensive no one will buy them. I don't like "shotgun" treating everything, as treatments are often hard on the animals themselves and not enough research has been done on side effects and dosages on each individual species of reptile or amphibian. Overdosing will kill the animal, and even proper doses may cause kidney or liver damage that shortens their lifespan. These "treatments" are nothing more then specialized poisons after all.
> 
> I will be ordering a microscope so we can do our own periodic fecal samples on all of our animals.


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## Alias (Feb 7, 2011)

@MountaineerLegion: I thought that was quite amusing and see the same things with chameleon breeders, orchid growers, etc. There may be 20 "correct" ways to do something, but some people will bash you mercilessly if you don't follow exactly as they do. I agree the "conform or leave" attitude stifles innovations of new techniques and people should follow established guidelines, but in the end do what works best for them and their situation. 

However, I do want the opinions of everyone and the opinions of those I may disagree with are often more valuable then that of those who mirror my own. I started this post to learn new things, not to justify that which I already hold as true. We are all here under the common purpose of improving and growing the hobby we all love, so no offense should be taken over a difference in opinion.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

I was going to add my two cents, but I think zBrinks struck a pretty good balance between what is realistic for a pet store and what is ethical for the hobby I sell froglets to a local Herp specialty store that I feel does pretty well. When I bring in froglets, they quarantine them for a short amount of time. They put about 5 to a ten gallon tank (sphagnum over recently cleaned tank, plenty of hides) on the display floor. They keep frogs from different sources separate and do not mix species. They have a large display tank to show an example of proper husbandry for PDF's, and they discourage mixed enclosures. Realistically, they would probably sell a hybrid someone brought in, but I think that's a strike against them. If it were my call I would say not to have anything to do with any "crossed" frogs.

BTW, it's nice to see a pet store care about more than the bottom line for a change.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Alias said:


> I will be ordering a microscope so we can do our own periodic fecal samples on all of our animals.


THANK YOU. I can't say many folks are willing to do this at all, and have heard of some who just don't unless they see signs of disease---but according to the folks who wrote the 'big book' on darts, often symptoms mean it is too late to do anything about it. 
The watch-and-waiters are promoting disease in the hobby IMO.


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## MountaineerLegion (Apr 8, 2008)

Alias said:


> So ...animals.





earthfrog said:


> Sounds like a jibe at criticism itself---thanks for the double entendre. It was very amusing. (Obviously, it is to be understood that the statements here were made in jest and not seriously, and mainly run contrary to good ethics.)


By the way earthfrog, I find two things interesting:

1) You assumed my post was a "jibe at criticism"...i.e. criticism is what had been or was going to be posted by others. Why would folks criticize the OP? THAT is what my post was about.

2) I believe you misused "double entendre", I believe you meant to call me a "hypocrite".

Peace


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

MountaineerLegion said:


> By the way earthfrog, I find two things interesting:
> 
> 1) You assumed my post was a "jibe at criticism"...i.e. criticism is what had been or was going to be posted by others. Why would folks criticize the OP? THAT is what my post was about.
> 
> ...


Nope, you read her wrong. She's telling you that she saw the humor in your post.


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## MountaineerLegion (Apr 8, 2008)

Alias said:


> @MountaineerLegion: I thought that was quite amusing and see the same things with chameleon breeders, orchid growers, etc. There may be 20 "correct" ways to do something, but some people will bash you mercilessly if you don't follow exactly as they do. I agree the "conform or leave" attitude stifles innovations of new techniques and people should follow established guidelines, but in the end do what works best for them and their situation.
> 
> *However, I do want the opinions of everyone and the opinions of those I may disagree with are often more valuable then that of those who mirror my own. I started this post to learn new things, not to justify that which I already hold as true. We are all here under the common purpose of improving and growing the hobby we all love, so no offense should be taken over a difference in opinion*.


I understood your intent. I have no problem with suggestions or others disagreeing with your approach or ideas. I often debate many subjects solely as a way to learn about my own position. 

My original post was designed as a first strike against what I believed would be an onslaught of "how dare you endanger the health of frogs in the name of greedy profit". I hope I haven't hijacked your thread or stifled the expression of opinions. I DO hope my post will encourage others to think of the consequences of HOW they post. I don't know maybe I'm having a bad day.


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## MountaineerLegion (Apr 8, 2008)

Boondoggle said:


> Nope, you read her wrong. She's telling you that she saw the humor in your post.


Double entendre
1: ambiguity of meaning arising from language that lends itself to more than one interpretation
2: a word or expression capable of two interpretations with one usually risqué

I didn't believe there was ambiguity or two impressions that could have been taken from my original post...perhaps I need to work on my satire.


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## MountaineerLegion (Apr 8, 2008)

In an effort to steer this more closely back to the OP's question (my apologies to the OP) I offer this:

Do what you have to to make a living. Only you know your business model. If you find that you can not do that without violating your own ethics (ethics are not universal) then consider finding another line of work. 

If this post and some of these posters help you define your ethics with regard to selling frogs then congrats to you...and, God help you.


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## Alias (Feb 7, 2011)

The mods have informed me that I did violate Dendroboard's UA by having 2 accounts and this account will be banned. I understand why this rule is in effect and I apologize to the mods and all my fellow members. No disrespect was intended. I will continue to monitor this thread so please continue discussing what you like and don't like seeing at retail establishments. 

Thank you to all who have voiced their opinion thus far.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

This is a tough question because you won't be able to satisfy both parties' demands. Most of what our hobby considers "ethical" and "good husbandry" may be impossible for a retail store, so it's all about finding a good balance. With that said, keep in mind that I'm assuming the majority of your customers will be new or relatively new to the hobby. Don't get me wrong, but I don't think many people who have had frogs for a while would buy from a pet store- even if they practice better husbandry than others- when they can get them from another hobbyist for less, with more lineage, etc. 



Alias said:


> 1. At a retail store how much space should be given per frog? I think at most we have 10-12 juvi frogs in a well planted 20 gallon.
> *Obviously, as much space as possible is best. I know stores are limited on space, so I would say as many as you would have together when you raise up froglets from breeding. *
> 
> 2. Is it ever appropriate to have mixed line/species tanks? For similar space considerations can similarly sized "compatible" species be kept together?
> ...


These are just some thoughts of mine from seeing and selling to some pet stores.
Other tips are: Keep simple cages, something that realistically a customer should be able to build while being suitable for the frog.
Have display vivs, but with a group of only one type of frog. 
Culture extra fruit flies and give a free culture or 1/2 price one the first time a person buys frogs. Also, make sure they know how to feed and give them an expectation of when they should be coming back to buy another culture if they don't culture them. 
Carry plants/ clipping that are good for dart tanks.
Suggest becoming a member of DB and researching more on the internet.
Again, you probably won't be able to satisfy the "ethics guidelines" set by the hobby. However, you can do your best to practice good husbandry and get people started in the hobby the right way.
Bryan


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## Gumby (May 27, 2010)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> Other tips are:
> *Suggest becoming a member of DB and researching more on the internet.
> However, you can do your best to practice good husbandry and get people started in the hobby the right way.*
> Bryan


Great point Bryan. You want new froggers to do their research and become familiar with the species they are buying. They should be knowledgeable about the necessary care and as a retail pet store *you* are their source for that. Tell them all the basics but please point them in the right directionso they can enjoy continued success with their darts. Im sure you wouldn't want to know that the frogs you are selling end up dried up because someone you sold the frogs to used a screen top. All I ask is that you take into account the well being of these extraordinary organisms.

-Chris


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Alias said:


> I will be ordering a microscope so we can do our own periodic fecal samples on all of our animals.


Thats the reason I bought my microscope. Like I said, I dont mean to offend. I just dont want to see darts turn into disposable pets at pet stores like guppies or leopard geckos or what have you. Ive just had too many bad experiences with specialty exotics stores that dont care beyond keeping the animals alive long enough to make money off them.

Here are some good books you should buy:
I personally own this one
Amazon.com: Understanding Reptile Parasites: A Basic Manual for Herpetoculturists & Veterinarians (Herpetocultural Library) (9781882770212): Roger Klingenberg: Books

I read this one while working at an animal shelter
Amazon.com: Reptile Medicine and Surgery (9780721652085): Douglas R. Mader MS DVM: Books


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> Suggest becoming a member of DB and researching more on the internet.
> Bryan


Oh man that's gonna be a huge flood of non-searching, million question asking newcomers. Woohoo!


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Mitch said:


> Oh man that's gonna be a huge flood of non-searching, million question asking newcomers. Woohoo!


Haha well, better that than dead frogs. Hopefully the pet store will give good advice to start, and then DB will be an add-on and a more detailed info resource. They may come on here with single species tanks, already having food, and with a decent set-up. Well, that's the goal at least by giving good advice from the start and offering healthy (at least healthier) animals than most other retail stores.
Bryan


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

I've thought about this a lot on and off wondering how to get proper care of animals through in a brick and mortar pet store. Seems like its almost always lacking unless you go to a very specialized place. 

If it were me, this is what I'd do. 

- build a big, nice, simple, but really cool display viv.
- put a group of Leucs in it. They're awesome starter frogs. They're bold, beautiful, fun to watch...

Add more display tanks, or just photo books with pricing and such for different species...

Then I'd carry all of the standard items we need for viv building (or even some premade vivs)... Get them all set up and ready to go, get them a care sheet and fly cultures and vitamins and all the good stuff. 

Then I'd set up a deal with my breeders. Instead of carrying all of these frogs in house and trying to figure out the best way to keep them, leave them with the breeder. Set a mark-up for the "finder's fee" or "referral" at X%, and have your customer order the frogs that day. You can have the breeder drop-ship them straight to the customer, or better yet you can have them pick them up from your store a day or two later that way they don't have to be home during business hours to receive delivery of the frogs. Heck, you could set up deals with lots of breeders all over DB and have a steady supply of frogs to keep your business hopping without ever having to keep them yourself.

I know it takes away from your ability to suit the "IMPULSE BUY NOW" needs of the average greedy american shopper, but it really eliminates a lot of the worries you brought up. Also, it promotes the customer actually setting up a viv and getting the "bugs" worked out prior to taking frogs home. 

Essentially, you'd be the frog "middle-man". Which if you look at any other business, tends to be a pretty smart way to do things. People may talk down about "frog flipping", but we can't all have our own pet stores.

Just my two cents, 

Brett


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

Personally I don't think it's fair to ask more of a store than you would a vendor on this board. Many of the vendors here house groups of froglets/juveniles in sterilite containers. I do. And i don't even sell anything. It's not a bad thing and it's not realistic to think that the frogs you purchasehere spend their early life hopping around in 40 gallon breeders with no more than 5 or 6 other frogs. But yet if you went into a pet store and saw that many would post here about their horror and dismay. 

Fecals. I don't know how many vendors routinely test and treat their frogs. This has come up in the past, but to expect that from a pet store when many don't even agree on it here seems a little unrealistic.

Housing. I am in complete agreement with the housing ideas Zach laid out. Simple setups where the frogs aren't stressed and yet easily visible. Sphagnum with Pothos for example. 
One to two nicely set up display tanks to let people see the possibilities. Can't help but think that this would help sell everything from Cork Bark to Plants to Waterfall pumps etc...
I am far more comfortable with a store that houses 10 well fed healthy juveniles in a relatively clean, 10-20 gallon tank when compared to another store that houses two scrawny, sickly, near death frogs in a large tank with nothing but a dead cricket or two and an artificial plant. 

Simple care sheets. How to care for different species as well as culturing flies etc. Supplies of feeders and culturing supplies on hand at all times. 

I think you do the best you can within the constraints of the business you are running. 
Pet stores have a bad name because it appears many of them don't give a sh*t about teh frogs. You even asking the questions shows you might, which is nice to see. 

M


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

btcope said:


> Then I'd carry all of the standard items we need for viv building (or even some premade vivs)... Get them all set up and ready to go, get them a care sheet and fly cultures and vitamins and all the good stuff.


Just an FYI, the shop I sell to does VERY well selling premade vivs.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

I say definitely set up a nice display tank. And by nice, I mean go OVERBOARD. Make it the best tank you can build. With dart frogs I've noticed that the tank itself can be as beautiful as the frogs you put in, and that's IMO one of the appeals of the hobby. You can definitely sell people things (plants, background materials, lights, misters, foggers, substrate, etc) for their tanks, which makes their investment in one of your frogs a much better deal for you in the long run. 

With a really really nice tank, people are also more likely to ask questions. They're more likely to say "wow" or "how did you..." and then you have a dialogue started and can start chatting about basic husbandry and offer them a well thought out caresheet as well. 

I agree though that the frogs that are for sale should be kept in basic, very simple tanks that leave decent visibility of the frogs for sale.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

There is an aquarium shop locally that dabbles in herps as well and works specifically with some dart frogs. I've come down hard on a lot of local pet shops, and I still like to suggest that you always "support your local breeder," but he seems to do a pretty good job with things.

Granted, things still may not be "ideal," but when I take into consideration the difference between the retail side versus the hobbyist side I think he does a pretty good job. He has a very large tank (the exo-terra 36x18x24) display viv, set up rather nicely with the whole false bottom, running water feature, live plant viv going. He buys from local breeders and he keeps a couple morphs of tinctorius and leucomelas in the tank at any given time. Still, the total frog count doesn't ever seem to get above 7, and the frogs don't ever seem to be more than about 4 months old, so there's really no chance of breeding, and very little chance of aggression because maturity hasn't allowed them to exhibit their aggressive tendencies.

I think that in the case that you're checking for parasites, you're recommending good sources of information to your customers, you're strongly suggesting no mixing takes place, you're keeping yourself out of the whole hybrid thing, a system like this probably wouldn't be a bad idea. Again, it's not ideal by hobby standards, but it's a helluva lot better than most retail situations I've seen....


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

We can't sell darts in our retail store unfortunately. We *do* sell vivarium suited species of geckos & other non-dendro frogs. The simplest way to be able to sleep at night while not insulting your customers:

Have a pre-built (simple, inexpensive) vivarium ready & waiting on display for sale with no animals inside. Keep the price around something that won't scare hobbyists away. Advertise that as the *MINIMUM REQUIREMENT* to keep a dart frog. 90% of people coming into an average pet store are interested in animals - not vivaria. So... Take the "pain in the ass" factor out of a purchase by building the viv for them. That way you can rest assured the species (whatever it is) is at least properly contained in a decent enclosure and the customer won't have to worry if he/she "did it right".

Also it's a polite way of saying, "No it can't be done cheaper. No it shouldn't be done too differently. Do it right or do it twice." 

A display vivarium is beautiful... However the first question EVERY customer will ask is, "how much would that cost?". Nobody really wants to know how much a nice display vivarium costs. It's an attraction for new customers - but it can act as a deterrent for potential buyers. Have a display viv - but keep a couple simple & inexpensive vivariums for sale near it to keep enthusiasm going.


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