# Four outta five ain't bad....dead Terribilis...please HELP !!!!



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

It's HORRIBLE and disheartening. I received five juvenile Terribilis in September and since I have lost two and I am expecting two more to die in the next week or so. The first frog died unexpectedly. I have no idea as it appeared healthy. The second was very very skinny and was treated with Metro & Panacur with no results. Now I have two more failing non-eating skinny frogs both being treated with Metro and I started with Panacur as well but since they are not eating I fear it may be too late. Last fecal showed no parasites but a high bacteria load. The very first fecal showed hook worm which followed by four weeks of Panacur which seemed to take of them but now the bacteria. Cleaned QT boxes weekly, proper dusting of FF's, temps and humidity ok, I am at a loss. I cleaned the boxes of the two sick frogs tonight hoping I can get fecals to send out Monday for another test and last ditch effort to save them. Fifth frog eats like a hog, poops all over the place and is nice and fat. He is living all alone in the 75g viv. Just released tonight. So other than me giving up dendros all together, anyone have any ideas? Are Terribilis known to be hard to raise from juveniles or are they susceptible to sickness? I chose them partly because I thought they were hardy easier to keep frogs suitable for beginners.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Were you feeding crickets or just ff`s?


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Just another note, both skinny frogs still very active and jump around like crazy and are out in their box, not hiding away or anything. One frog is big but very skinny with a sunken belly so it _was_ doing well, the other is small and skinny. No idea. Maybe some glucose force feed to give them energy at least to stay alive? Is there a way to make Panacur in to a topical to treat them with since they are not eating so dusting flies won't do much good?


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

frogfarm said:


> Were you feeding crickets or just ff`s?


 Just fruit flies. Still too small for crickets. Alternating dusting with multivitamins and calcium.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

You recieved them in sept and they aren`t ready for crickets? They can be aggressive and need a lot of food. Mine are on 1/4inch crickets at 2 months old. They should`ve been on them by the time you received them. They should be about 6 mos old?


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

No, still too small. Maybe pinheads but I have not tried them. I feed the crap outta FF's though. But that would not explain why two are not eating at all. I could understand being under feed and loosing weight if all the flies were gone between feedings but when I feed new flies there are still old flies crawling around or dead all over the place and very little fecal. The other frog that is doing good, there are never flies left over. That one might be ready for crickets. I may try some soon but it seems to be doing alright on FF's.


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

For what it's worth here is a couple shots of the one healthy frog. Took these just after putting it in the viv. Started eating FF's almost immediately and was all over the tank checking things out.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I can`t really see the gut but it looks like it may be skinny. Definately doesn`t look 6 mos old but should at least be taking 1/8th inch crickets. Mine will eat 1/8th inchers w/in the first 2 weeks. Have you tried them? Temps?
I don`t know what it could be but shouldn`t be bacteria since they were all housed together and one seems to be fine.


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

No, actually they have been QT separately. The frog in the picture is the healthy one. He is nice and fat and active and eats like there is no tomorrow. They were about 6 weeks old I think when I got them so that would make them about 5 months old.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

At 5 months old they should be on crickets for nutritional diversity, actually by 5 weeks old. It could be a strait ff diet coupled w/ bad vit`s/mins or using calcium w/out d3. it could have been something w/ shipping at 6 weeks old, it could be temp related, chytrid, the bacteria load from strait spagnum or paper towels or any residue from cleaning solutions, or probably something I haven`t named. most likely not parasites though because you treated for hookworm and they are too young and housed seperate to build up a load enough to affect their health. I`d need better pics of them, their setup and everything you do, feeding, dusting, w/ what, temps, amt of food and their reaction at feeding, whether they hide or were out often and anything else you can think of.


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Yeah, I know, too many variables. Not sure that it is nutritional because I do have the one very healthy frog, but them again I am sure frogs are like people and they vary. Supplements are Rep-Cal's HERPTIVITE and Rep-Cal Ultrafine Calcium with Vitamin D3, both bought new and I have had them since September so they should still be good (less than 6 months old). I alternate dusting. Housing is in shoe box sized clear plastic boxes lined with moist paper towel (distilled water) and leaf litter. Feeding the sick frogs hide. the healthy frog was out and ready. All frogs were out and waiting when I first got them. Temps mid 70's. Humidity good as there is always lots of condensation on the walls of the boxes and the paper towel is moist. I clean the boxes out weekly or more if needed. Cleaning residue possible but I rinse the heck out of them before putting things back together. Sickness came on quickly. One of the sick frogs is larger in frame size but very skinny. The other is just small in size and skinny. I collected a fecal from the larger one tonight and will be sending that out tomorrow to Dr. Frye. I am almost tempted to let them out in to the viv in hopes that the natural habitat might help but I know that if there is something wrong that my whole viv could be ruined and my one healthy frog could be in jeopardy. I just feel like I am not doing enough to help these guys.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`d put my money on using only distilled and paper towels and housing them individually as the problem. Terribilis do better in groups for stress as if there are others out and about they feel safer and they are very aggressive come feeding time so they need to be watched for feeding to make sure everyone is eating.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I would have used aged tap water and not distilled water.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Plus paper towels can have different levels of whatever is used in the process` involved and are good media for bacterial growth. I never liked cleaning tanks often. Your constantly chnaging the env and giving new media for stuff to grow on. I`d think an established environment is much better for any frog.


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

So do you think putting them in the viv would be a good idea? There shouldn't be any worms as they were treated with Panacur and the last fecal did not show any, just high bacteria load. Maybe at least house the two sick frogs together? I just really hate to risk hurting my viv and healthy frog. Maybe I can make a new QT enclosure that is more viv like for the sick frogs and house them together and see if that helps at all.


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## HappyHippos1 (May 7, 2007)

Yea as Aaron has said take them out of quarantine and put them all in the same viv (assuming it is grown in and has lots of hides.)

Try feeding crickets and mealworms. If the crickets/worms are too large I've found out (I imagine esp with Terribils since they are so bold) that they will eat them if you cut them in half and the dying bug is still squirming. I've had to do this with a short supply of food and large crickets. I've had juvi auratus' eat full size crickets minus their back legs. Either way the crickets die by being eating or die because they are missing their legs. Also have you tried the hydei larvae, I'd think melanos are too small?

As I found out as a newbie most newbie problems result from bothering the frogs too much (touching, moving the viv items, and cleaning). Everyone seems to be on such a 'freak out' of parasites etc. that they feel they need to keep their frogs in empty small jars and watch them constantly. I don't quarantine a new frog unless I suspected it was sick before arrival or if I'm adding one to an already established group. I've had many juvis die in papertowel setups for NO apparent reason!

*On soapbox.
If I get 5 new frogs from the same breeder and all appear healthy on arrival they're all going into the same tank right away. IMO frogs need to feel secure and in their normal environment before they are beemed up, probed and invaded like aliens in outer space. *Off soapbox


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I skimmed this one but use a ton of clean leaf litter. That along with some sort of hut always helps.

-Nish


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## bmasar (Dec 13, 2007)

HappyHippos1 said:


> *On soapbox.
> If I get 5 new frogs from the same breeder and all appear healthy on arrival they're all going into the same tank right away. IMO frogs need to feel secure and in their normal environment before they are beemed up, probed and invaded like aliens in outer space. *Off soapbox


Seconded..


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

I understand where you are coming from HappyHippos. For the record the only time I mess with the frogs is to open the box to feed and a quick misting when needed and once a week or two I clean out the box. I never handle them other than to quickly shoo them in to a clean container while I cleaned out their box. I was using paper towels but I did include lots of leaf litter so there was plenty of hiding spots. I have since moved both sick frogs in to one enclosure and I am using substrate instead of paper towels and I am using more leaf litter and live plant clippings. I really want to include them in to the vivarium but I still fear that if there is more wrong than simply being stressed or just bacteria then I will make the healthy frog sick and potential ruin my vivarium which is doing great. I have a fecal ready to go in the mail tomorrow to Dr. Frye to see if he can find anything more than just bacteria and I will also get his advice.

When I first got them I did actually have them in the same box. Then I thought that it might be better to keep them separate so that I could keep a better eye on them individually. I wasn't worried about cross contamination because I knew they most likely lived together before I got them so what one had they all probably had. I just thought it would be easier to keep track of their eating and such. I guess I made a newbie mistake however my plan was endorsed by other experienced frog keepers on this board so I thought by keeping them alone I was doing right.

So what is the fate of my healthy frog? Since it is alone in a 75 gallon vivarium, should I be worried about it as far as not having any other frogs in with it or should it be ok? I doubt I can get any more frogs before spring due to weather and regardless even if I did I would QT the new frogs at least a month so the healthy frog would still be alone that amount of time.


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, I want to thank everyone that helped out and especially those that suggested and agreed that being alone in the "sterile" QT boxes was potentially stressing the two sick frogs to death. It seems that after mixing the two together in the same more viv like box they have both put on a tiny bit of weight. I went a head and added them to the real vivarium and with in a minute the larger of the two sick frogs was eating and the smaller of the two was out hanging out with the other two frogs. I did not see the small one eat but just being out was promising since it is usually hiding tight under leaf litter when it was in the QT box. So I am trying to not get to excited but I am now more hopeful that these two will end up being ok and I have learned a lesson here for sure in the event I ever get more frogs. So thanks again everyone that posted and send PM's, I appreciate it.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

One thing I've noticed with some frogs that won't eat is that if they're in with another frog that eats fine, they'll start to eat in response to the other when it's eating. It's like they forget to eat (from stress or whatever) but remember to when they see someone else doing it.

-Nish


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Well, being that someone decided to give me negative reputation anonymously instead of responding to my post within the thread, I'll explain a little further.

I have a cauchero pumilio which was rather skinny and did not eat much. I had never witnessed the frog eat and it didn't eat much based on the amount of flies that would remain 1-2 days after feeding. After putting it in with a female that eats as soon as I throw flies in, regardless of what it's doing at the time, if the female starts to eat, so does he. I have seen this in at least one other frog.

-Nish


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Pumilio sometimes won`t eat well when by themselves in captivity cb or wc.



nish07 said:


> Well, being that someone decided to give me negative reputation anonymously instead of responding to my post within the thread, I'll explain a little further.
> 
> I have a cauchero pumilio which was rather skinny and did not eat much. I had never witnessed the frog eat and it didn't eat much based on the amount of flies that would remain 1-2 days after feeding. After putting it in with a female that eats as soon as I throw flies in, regardless of what it's doing at the time, if the female starts to eat, so does he. I have seen this in at least one other frog.
> 
> -Nish


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

nish07 said:


> Well, being that someone decided to give me negative reputation anonymously instead of responding to my post within the thread, I'll explain a little further.


Seriously? That's pretty retarded. But I'll hold my tongue cause if I don't I'll end up with _another_ infraction. But for what it's worth, IMO the whole reputation thing is a crock of sht and needs to go away.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

How are the frogs doing now?
Candy


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Still seem to be doing well. Both of the sick frogs are very active and out and about in the viv and seem to be eating good. Not putting on weight as I would like so next week I am going to order a small amount of pinheads and wax worms to see how that works. But all in all, much better. I have no doubt that if left in their QT boxes the smallest one would probably be dead and the other one worse than it is now. The healthy frog is still rocking and being his fat self.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

That is awesome! Great to hear.
Candy


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Don`t order pinheads, order 1/8th inch or up to 3/16th inch crickets.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Nubster said:


> Still seem to be doing well. Both of the sick frogs are very active and out and about in the viv and seem to be eating good. Not putting on weight as I would like so next week I am going to order a small amount of pinheads and wax worms to see how that works. But all in all, much better. I have no doubt that if left in their QT boxes the smallest one would probably be dead and the other one worse than it is now. The healthy frog is still rocking and being his fat self.


I like to quarantine frogs in something that is going to feel natural to them. I've currently got 2 groups of four auratus quarantining. One group is in a sterilite with a sphagnum bottom and plant clippings with a few half pots to hid in and the other group is in a 10 gallon with a normal substrate and plant clippings with leaf litter and a coco hut and a few half pots. Both groups are very active and readily eat. I also had a single tinc froglett that I had in quarantine in a sterilite with sphagnum and leaf litter that did well for a few weeks then quit eating. I moved him into a 10g setup with lots of pothos and some hiding spots with substrate and leaf litter and he started eating right away. Just like people, these frogs all have their own personalities and what works for one may not work for another. That's why it is important to pay attention and observe your collection so you can adapt your keeping methods for each animal. It sounds like yours were just not comfortable in the setups they were in and now that they are in a seemingly comfortable environment they are starting to go back to natural habits.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

nish07 said:


> Well, being that someone decided to give me negative reputation anonymously instead of responding to my post within the thread, I'll explain a little further.
> 
> I have a cauchero pumilio which was rather skinny and did not eat much. I had never witnessed the frog eat and it didn't eat much based on the amount of flies that would remain 1-2 days after feeding. After putting it in with a female that eats as soon as I throw flies in, regardless of what it's doing at the time, if the female starts to eat, so does he. I have seen this in at least one other frog.
> 
> -Nish


Hmm, I don't know what you would have said to upset somebody in this thread, but I wouldn't stress over it.


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