# Thinking about Dart Frogs, have some Q's



## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

Hello! I'm new here... and I'm thinking about maybe getting Dart frogs at some point. A recent trip to the nashville zoo sparked my interest... and my 6 year old son has been crazy about dart frogs for awhile. I've been reading the beginner forum here, but I had a couple of questions about some of the things I've read...

First, I've seen a recommendation to start with a small vivarium. This runs counter to the typical wisdom in aquaria where bigger is generally more stable... is the opposite true for vivariums? I'm a big fan of understocked aquariums (tanganyikan cichlids are my current focus), and I suspect my tastes in vivariums may run the same. Is there some advantage of choosing say a 10gallon over a 29? Or a 29 over a 40-breeder? I happen to have 10 and 20 gallon empty tanks (my 29 is full of water and cycling), so that'd be cheaper, but at least in the fish-world I really like the looks of a 40-gallon breeder tank (though i was thoroughly bummed that my local petco sold out of 40gallons before I got there for the $1/gallon sale... and they weren't ordering anymore until after the sale was over *grump*).

Second -- vertical vivariums. Is the point to get more "up" space for arboreal froggies? To get a front-opening vivarium rather than a top-opening one? How much easier is it to maintain a vivarium with a front opening vs a top opening? When I get there, I'll probably just have whatever tank I can find for cheap on craigslist (unless the $1/gal sale comes back), but I'm running images of a "vertical" 40-breeder... or a "sideways" 40-breeder through my head... wondering if the extra floorspace might be better than the extra height.

I'm sure I'll have lots more questions... like what's a springtail? But I haven't gotten around to reading the food forum yet so I'm hoping that Q will be answered there already . I'm going slow... figure I'll build a vivarium and plant it and figure out the food situation long before I look into buying a frog.

Oh, lastly for the moment... are there any groups/clubs etc. near the Huntsville, AL area?

thanks!

-GB


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## poimandres (Mar 28, 2009)

gbeauvin said:


> Hello! I'm new here... and I'm thinking about maybe getting Dart frogs at some point. A recent trip to the nashville zoo sparked my interest... and my 6 year old son has been crazy about dart frogs for awhile. I've been reading the beginner forum here, but I had a couple of questions about some of the things I've read...
> 
> First, I've seen a recommendation to start with a small vivarium. This runs counter to the typical wisdom in aquaria where bigger is generally more stable... is the opposite true for vivariums? I'm a big fan of understocked aquariums (tanganyikan cichlids are my current focus), and I suspect my tastes in vivariums may run the same. Is there some advantage of choosing say a 10gallon over a 29? Or a 29 over a 40-breeder? I happen to have 10 and 20 gallon empty tanks (my 29 is full of water and cycling), so that'd be cheaper, but at least in the fish-world I really like the looks of a 40-gallon breeder tank (though i was thoroughly bummed that my local petco sold out of 40gallons before I got there for the $1/gallon sale... and they weren't ordering anymore until after the sale was over *grump*).


First off, welcome.

While a smaller vivarium may be easier on the wallet and easier to maintain, I believe that you will be better off going with something bigger than a 10 gallon as it will give you more options for frogs. I'd say use that 20 gallon even go bigger if you're up for it. In terms of the frogs themselves, the more space you can give them, the better off they will be. The key is simplicity however. Don't go overboard with waterfalls, complex backgrounds and features, and the like. Too many times people get overly excited with creating an amazing show piece and overlook the basic requirements for creating a sustainable environment for the frogs. 



> Second -- vertical vivariums. Is the point to get more "up" space for arboreal froggies?


Exactly, some species of dart frogs are arboreal in nature and will therefore fare better in vertical enclosures.



> To get a front-opening vivarium rather than a top-opening one? How much easier is it to maintain a vivarium with a front opening vs a top opening?


This is normally a matter of personal preference. Many experienced froggers still use top-opening vivariums particularly long aquariums for terrestrial darts. I personally, prefer the ease of front opening enclosures and I also feel that it is less threatening on the inhabitants.

There are several methods for converting an aquarium to a front opening enclosure and since you will have to reduce the ventilation anyway to make it suitable for dart frogs you may want to consider this option.

The sponsors here sell conversion kits for vertical oriented enclosures. This can be a good option if you choose an arboreal dart frog as you can stick with your 20 gallon (if it is a high) and convert that for pretty cheap. A while back, I posted a thread on making your own horizontal conversion from a 20gallon long : http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/52620-horizontal-conversion-kits.html



> When I get there, I'll probably just have whatever tank I can find for cheap on craigslist (unless the $1/gal sale comes back), but I'm running images of a "vertical" 40-breeder... or a "sideways" 40-breeder through my head... wondering if the extra floorspace might be better than the extra height.


Floorspace v Height depends on the species you select. I strongly suggest you first determine a species of dart that peaks your interest and then design the enclosure around their specific needs. Leucs and Tincs are generally considered good first frogs to work with and are more terrestrial in nature, but there are some arboreal thumbnails that while a bit more challenging can definitely make a good first dart provided that you do your research and can accommodate all their needs.



> I'm sure I'll have lots more questions... like what's a springtail? But I haven't gotten around to reading the food forum yet so I'm hoping that Q will be answered there already . I'm going slow... figure I'll build a vivarium and plant it and figure out the food situation long before I look into buying a frog.


Sounds like you are getting into this hobby the right way. You'll find loads of information here, so get ready to soak it up.



> Oh, lastly for the moment... are there any groups/clubs etc. near the Huntsville, AL area?
> 
> thanks!
> 
> -GB


Sorry, but I can't help you there. 

Welcome to the board and good luck with your dart frog journey. It is a serious addiction!


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Welcome. The vertical vs. horizontal is really for the frogs needs. If you get a thumbnail frog, like an imitator, they would use more height so a vert would be better. However, lots of beginner frogs like leucs, auratus, tincs, terribilis, etc. use more floorspace so a horizontally positioned tank would be best. So, as suggested, it's usually easiest to pick the type of frog you want first, and then design the vivarium around that specific frog's needs. 
Larger vivariums are more stable than smaller ones because they have more volume, but it is not as critical to keep the parameters exactly the same every day as it is with aquariums. Vivs are a little more forgiving, and provided you stay within the temp and humidity boundaries you should be fine. Temperature between 70-78 is good, most darts can handle temps up to around 82, but some species are more sensitive. Also, while many warmer tolerant species can live in temperatures up to 86 or so for short periods of time, you really want to try to avoid this if possible because you stress the frogs and run the risk of killing them. Humidity around 70-80% is good usually, and if you want to breed them you can raise it to 90-100%. 
If you wanted to start off with a 10 or 20 gallon for practice and allow young frogs to grow out before you move them to a larger viv, like 40 gallons as you wanted, that would be fine. This may be better too because if you put young frogs in a 40 they may have a hard time finding enough food if there isn't enough spread out, so by allowing them to grow larger in a smaller tank they will eventually become more aggressive feeders and can be upgraded later if needed. 
BTW, a springtail is a very small bug (like the size of this dash -) that are cultured and used to feed smaller frogs such as pumilio and Ranitomeya, froglets of any species, and break down waste and mold in a vivarium. 
Good luck! 
Bryan


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## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> So, as suggested, it's usually easiest to pick the type of frog you want first, and then design the vivarium around that specific frog's needs.


I really like the idea of leucs... a bolder frog that can be kept in a group, but when I start looking at pictures both the Azeurus and the Cobalt Tincs really pop in my mind. There are also some exceedingly attractive imitators, but it seems that some people recomend them but others don't? What is more difficult about them? Can they be kept in a group?

What would be an appropriate size enclosure for a pair of azeurus or cobalt tincs? I like the idea of a trio, though I'm thinking the usual fish method of getting a pair (buy 6 juvies, wait for a pair to form, and then re-home the other fish) might not work as well in the dart frog world.

The idea of a group of some of the imitators I've seen in a 40breeder is also very appealing, though.

-GB (who has some thinking/researching to do)


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Leucs would be a great choice. I have two pairs, they are always out and active, don't run away when you get too close, have a beautiful call, and can be kept in groups. Tincs are also great but as you know do best in pairs. While a 10 gallon may be enough for tincs, they really appreciate the extra space and the bigger tincs especially would love at least a 20 gallon, but they would also be just fine in a larger tank if you have space. Some people have had success with 2.1 trios (two males and one female) but it's not guaranteed. I personally have had bad experience with them. The first time I added a male to my pair in hopes of encouraging more breeding, the males started wrestling and withing 2 hours one male had a broken arm and never recovered, dying within a week  More recently, I added two males that had been living together for a long time to a lone female. The males were more interested in calling/ fighting with each other than the female. I split them and made two pairs, and now I am overrun with tads  I'm getting a clutch of 4-5 almost every week from each pair.
You can certainly buy juvis and raise them until they can be sexed, keep a pair, and sell/ trade the extra. I usually get 3-4 for this. The only thing is that with tincs you will need to watch for aggression (especially female/female) when they are reaching maturity, sometimes as early as 6-8 months. You may need to separate some if one is getting beat on to prevent losses.
Imitators are great frogs, and one of the easier thumbnail frogs, but some people may not recommend them as a first frog. The main reason is they are much smaller, much faster, and can be much more shy. This means that it is much easier for them to escape, so you would need to be extra careful. I don't personally own imis, (yet) but I have experience with thumbnails and I've read that they can be kept in groups, but wrestling may occur and females may eat each others eggs. Some people recommend that if you are going to have a group, get more than a few (maybe 5 or so at least) so that aggression would be more spread out between the frogs instead of on only one individual. Someone with more imitator would have to chime in though.
Bryan


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## Brien (Aug 27, 2009)

Hey I live in Bowling green, KY if you would like help I can provide some it's only like 45 minutes away and I have a decent size collection just pm me.


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## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

Ruh Roh Raggy... I was searching for more pretty pictures of imitators and I ran across an article trying to pin down why the R. Imitator is monogamous and shows biparental care, while the very similar R. variablis does not.

That trait (caring for the young) is precisely what drew me to tanganyikan cichlids... so I gotta ask. Is this common among any other (perhaps more beginner friendly) species? If not biparental care, then either maternal or paternal care that extends beyond depositing tadpoles in a puddle?

thanks!

-GB


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## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

The biggest group for parental care are the obligate egg-feeders. In captivity, that means _Oophaga pumilio_ or pums if you are searching for more info on here. They are definitely not recommended for beginners though. Some of the _Ranitomeya_ are facultative egg feeders which means it is optional for them.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

And....even the tincs, auratus, etc, will transport their hatching tadpoles to water on their backs. After that the tads are left to fend for themselves (unless a human is dropping in extra food for them). It is a really satisfying experience to watch the process and see a froglet walk out of a pool or water or a bromiliad. 

Somethng tells me you are gonna like darts.

Good luck
Sally


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Yes, the larger Dendrobates only transport the tadpoles, after that the tads have to eat detritus, algae, and whatever bugs may fall into their pool. Thumbnails for the most part will not only transport, but then go back and feed eggs to the tadpoles as food. With thumbs, though, you can pull the tads and raise them artificially without feeding eggs if you want. Oophaga, such as pumilio, have to raise the tadpoles by themselves. It is very hard to see and tadpoles being raised by frogs that feed their tadpoles usually. Frequently, people don't even know about it and then one day they see a froglet. Sometimes you get lucky, though, and they deposit the tadpole in an easily viewed location. My pumilio have a tadpole right smack in the middle of a broms right out in the open, I can see them feed it and check on its progress whenever I want. 
Bryan


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## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

Heh. Now the conundrum . On the one hand the practical side of me says "Go with a tinc... they're easier, you'll like them!" and the other says "but... but... but... the thumbnails sound SOOO COOL!!!".

And sadly it sounds like I'd need a totally different viv for a tinc vs a thumbnail!

-GB (who feels like pooh bear... "think...think...think...")


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## petie4555 (Jul 9, 2010)

I have found myself in the same situation as you, just wanting to get everything. But the one thing i noticed is no matter what kind you get you will absolutly love them. I just picked up a pair of auratus at an expo, i had my heart set on leucs but once i saw the turquoise and bronze auratus I had to have them and have no regrets. 

Good luck to you and welcome to the board


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## pygmycory (Dec 11, 2016)

I'm another person trying to choose between tincs and imitator for my first frog. The breeding behaviour of the Ranitomaya genus fascinates me, and my tank is not huge and as tall as it is long (18x12x18in). I've also special a soft spot for ludicrously tiny creatures. But azureus is easily available locally, is nearly silent, just as pretty, very bold and supposed to be easier to care for. So what to do?

Good luck with whichever frog you choose.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

pygmycory said:


> I'm another person trying to choose between tincs and imitator for my first frog. The breeding behaviour of the Ranitomaya genus fascinates me, and my tank is not huge and as tall as it is long (18x12x18in). I've also special a soft spot for ludicrously tiny creatures. But azureus is easily available locally, is nearly silent, just as pretty, very bold and supposed to be easier to care for. So what to do?
> 
> Good luck with whichever frog you choose.


Opinions vary on this subject. Some would say that the husbandry requirements for little fellas and big(ger) fellas are similar. There is truth to this. The habitats are similar, fly production is similar, etc. However, at my house, I am a lot more likely to have a little fella shoot out the front door of the viv and lead me on a merry chase before being apprehended. They are much quicker, more easily spooked (most of the time, anyway), tougher to re-capture and it's a little tougher to see if there is something wrong with them. These are not hugely important factors, but they are enough to get me to recommend bigger frogs for a first vivarium. You have enough to learn with your first vivarium already. I would just as soon have people learn in a slightly less stressful environment.

I know that some folks don't like to recommend the same frogs (leucs, azureus, other tincs) over and over again for beginners due to wanting to spread the demand around a bit and not overpopulate the world with those few species. There are lots of larger frogs, though, that would do great as first frogs that also aren't leucs and azureus. I think that auratus, galactonotus, terribilis, bicolor, truncatus, etc. would also be great first frogs.

Maybe if you have a top-opening tank or especially quick reflexes/excellent situational awareness, you would be fine with the little fellas for your first tank. You would probably be fine either way, frankly. However, I give a slight edge to larger frogs for first tank.

Regardless of what you choose, I wish you luck in your first build.

Mark


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## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

pygmycory said:


> I'm another person trying to choose between tincs and imitator for my first frog. The breeding behaviour of the Ranitomaya genus fascinates me, and my tank is not huge and as tall as it is long (18x12x18in). I've also special a soft spot for ludicrously tiny creatures. But azureus is easily available locally, is nearly silent, just as pretty, very bold and supposed to be easier to care for. So what to do?
> 
> Good luck with whichever frog you choose.


I'm not too sure about this but based on what I've heard, an imitator may not be the best first frog. Not trying to ruin your plans or anything. One suggestion would be to get the Ranitomeya Ventrimaculata because I think they are considered more beginner friendly. I myself have a soft spot for teeny tiny creatures but it may take a bit of patience before you can get an imitator.
EDIT: Actually, I agree with Encyclia's post. As long as you are able to handle their speed, small size, and other things such as spring tail culturing for babies, it shouldn't be to much of a challenge. But it is nice to start off with a bigger frog that is easier to handle(not literally handle but you guys know).
EDIT #2: Here is a good link that relates to what I'm talking about: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/299898-good-bastimentos-sized-frogs.html


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## flyfanatic14 (Jun 15, 2016)

I too am a long term aquarium keeper that went over to dart frogs. I was always into breeding the smallest species I could find. (pygmycory has a kindred spirit in Pensacola!) I have an Exoterra that is the size of a 40 breeder and it is big enough for most any pair of dart frogs and some 24x24x24 Exo's for the more arboreal. I just got a trio of Charco La Pava Pumilio's (thanks szyskadaryl) The cage really is chosen for the frog. And the frog is chosen by what kind of interaction you are looking for in a "pet" frog. Do you want a tame frog that you see all of the time? Terribilis are awesome for that, as are most of the tincs. I've got some morphs of Auratus that are kind of shy. If you want the challenge of breeding them, then maybe go with the Thumbs or Pumilios. I personally think that they should not be mixed though. As an example of arboreal types, after I introduced the trio of Pum's, I don't think they have ever strayed below the top six inches of the tank. So those tiny guys can climb! Aquarium vs front opening tanks; it isn't only the doors that make the front opening ones great. They have adjustable slots for electrical cords, great ventilation, and raised rims for under tank heat. BUT, they are expensive! and the tops are kind of weak. I hope this helps. Good luck, you will like any of them!


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## pygmycory (Dec 11, 2016)

Thank you for the many helpful suggestions. I spent part of the morning today looking up different species and morphs. I'm on Vancouver Island, and what I get will partly depend on what I can find to buy. I know I can find azureus, but some of the others are questionable. If I can find D. tinctorius Dwarf French Guiana Cobalt, I'd probably pick that over azureus since it is smaller but supposed to be easy to keep, and my terrarium isn't huge. I do want more than one individual, and I'm worried a couple of azureus might be pressed for space.

Current list of possibilities:
D. tinctorius Dwarf French Guiana
Ranitomeya imitator 
D. auratus Costa Rican Green and Black
Ranitomeya variabilis 
D. azureus

I've fairly good reflexes after chasing down crickets for years, but the tank is front-opening, and losing a frog would be pretty horrible.

I'm still probably a month and a half or more from buying frogs, so at least I've plenty of time to decide as I learn more.


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