# Would legalizing certain frogs discourage smuggling?



## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

Here is a question that has popped into my head due to all the various conversations we have been having about the legality of various species of frogs.

Would legalizing certain frogs discourage smuggling of those frogs form their natural habitat?


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Legalizing smuggled frogs would simply increase the demand for these frogs, and remove the consequences (legal) for having smuggled frogs, thus _increasing_ demand for smuggling of them. 

Legal exportation, combined with sufficient captive breeding to meet (or at least put a dent) in the demand, would lower the demand for smuggling (by satiating their market), and is the purpose of projects like Understory & INIBICO.


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

I'm not saying necessarily rare frogs... I am mainly referring to frogs that are already in high numbers in captivity (for example... Mysteriosus is reproducing like crazy in Europe in captivity). Some European countries do not consider these captive bred frogs to even be illegal... just not for export.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I think it is a bit more complex. Let me preface by saying that I hate smuggling and want to see it stopped. I also think that a lot of legal importations should be stopped because of unethical practices or negative consequences for conservation of wild frogs. But with that said, IF the demand for an illegal species could be completely met with captive bred animals immediately, then I think it is hard to argue that would not significantly reduce the demand for smuggled animals. I would never support any kind of amnesty rule for smugglers though - and that wasn't the question asked in the poll. I've got no tolerance for that nonsense. But I think we need to be realistic about the fact there are some frogs in captivity several steps removed from the initial smuggling that are remaining rare and coveted only because they are not legal. I think the number of truly illegal species is much lower than most people think but that is a different issue. However, when a smuggled animal is also difficult to breed, I think legitimizing the animals will only encourage more smuggling since market demand cannot be met purely with cb animals.

These are just my personal opinions.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

41714049 said:


> I'm not saying necessarily rare frogs... I am mainly referring to frogs that are already in high numbers in captivity (for example... Mysteriosus is reproducing like crazy in Europe in captivity). Some European countries do not consider these captive bred frogs to even be illegal... just not for export.


This is the main example. Mysteriosis are easy to breed and could be produced as captive bred cheaper and with less risk than smuggling. However, simply making the existing captive specimens legal would not be a good idea. They need to be exported legally by the projects already mentioned so that the money generated can support conservation. INIBICO has worked for years on this project and I would be very upset if suddenly their efforts were made obsolete because some loophole in the law was created.


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

> I think it is a bit more complex. Let me preface by saying that I hate smuggling and want to see it stopped. I also think that a lot of legal importations should be stopped because of unethical practices or negative consequences for conservation of wild frogs. But with that said, IF the demand for an illegal species could be completely met with captive bred animals immediately, then I think it is hard to argue that would not significantly reduce the demand for smuggled animals. I would never support any kind of amnesty rule for smugglers though - and that wasn't the question asked in the poll. I've got no tolerance for that nonsense. But I think we need to be realistic about the fact there are some frogs in captivity several steps removed from the initial smuggling that are remaining rare and coveted only because they are not legal. I think the number of truly illegal species is much lower than most people think but that is a different issue. However, when a smuggled animal is also difficult to breed, I think legitimizing the animals will only encourage more smuggling since market demand cannot be met purely with cb animals.
> 
> These are just my personal opinions.


I agree with you 100%.

I never meant this to be for EVERY species but SOME select species that are abundant in captivity and easily bred.

I discourage anyone from smuggling/buying smuggled frogs.

Many people however have kept these frogs for generations past their initial smuggled pair and have no ties to smuggling. This poll is meant for those frogs that are abundant, easy to breed, and have been captive for several generations.

I know its a touchy subject.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I'm not saying necessarily rare frogs... I am mainly referring to frogs that are already in high numbers in captivity (for example"endsnip

It hasn't stopped the smuggling of D. auratus...... 

see the Traffic reports of seizures like 

snip 21 October 2004: CITES II-listed Flaming Poison Frogs Dendrobates pumilio (580) and Green Poison Frogs D. auratus (22) hidden in
the canisters of more than 200 film rolls. Each container held two to three frogs. Ten per cent of the frogs died during transport. Three
Belgian citizens, who had arrived from Panama,via Madrid, were arrested."endsnip

Ed


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## Reptiledan (Nov 23, 2004)

*Touchy subject*

I suppose there are several different ways to answer this but since its opinionated here we go.... Frogs are already declining in nature without collecting so why not establish captive born populations and learn how to conserve the species that still do exist? 
If frogs were permitted to be exported in small amounts would the wild population even notice? Competition for food and living quarters is present in every other animal in nature who is to say its not present in the frog land also.. 
Dont get me wrong I am a firm believer in concervation, but there has to be a line. A good habitat management program could allow export of a certain number of WC frogs and produce CB programs..alot of info can be attained from a solid CB progam...who knows Atelopus frogs may be well established in Captivity if a solid research progam would have existed 25 years ago..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Frogs are already declining in nature without collecting so why not establish captive born populations and learn how to conserve the species that still do exist? "endsnip

A couple of points of clarificiation here... 
do you mean known locality animals established in a manner that would allow them to be released to the wild if the conditions improve or do you simnply mean establishing them in the pet trade as cb? There is a significant difference between these two.... 


snip "If frogs were permitted to be exported in small amounts would the wild population even notice? Competition for food and living quarters is present in every other animal in nature who is to say its not present in the frog land also.."endsnip

It is entirely possible depending on the population dynamics that removal of animals would result in local population extinctions as you either remove breeding adults or prevent sufficient animals from being available for the required recruitment needed to keep the population stable. This is something that is now becoming well documented in other animals. For one example, the removal on one adult male box turtle was shown to render the population non-viable although it would take a long time for that population to totally crash (due to being long lived). 

Yes there is competition etc in the wild but this doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the removal of an animal or animals from that population would render it non-viable in the long run... 

snip "Dont get me wrong I am a firm believer in concervation, but there has to be a line."endsnip

For the most point we do not know what the effect of removal of the frogs from the various populations have on the overall population. There may be a larger effect on the populations of obligate egg feeders due to the amount of parental investment rearing a froglet... 

snip "A good habitat management program could allow export of a certain number of WC frogs and produce CB programs..alot of info can be attained from a solid CB progam"endsnip

This means you have to understand the population dynamics in the wild which tends to be a multi-year study so you can understand the normal fluctuations of the populations as well as the required recruitments. 
Right now most of the information being gathered from the populations in captivity is what are the best conditions to produce lots of eggs...... 

.snip..who knows Atelopus frogs may be well established in Captivity if a solid research progam would have existed 25 years ago"endsnip

Its not like Atelopus weren't being studied 25 years ago... . There is even an article on breeding one of the Atelopus species in the American Dendrobatid Newsletter but at that time, there wasn't a lot of widespread interest in keeping these toads alive.... This sort of cycle has been repeated with other species of amphibian and reptiles.. I can remember when instead of the firebelly newt being sold for fish tanks were Cynops pyrrogaster instead of the Cynops orientalis seen today. Now if you want C. pyrrogaster you have to track down one of the few people breeding them today. 
When you add this to the boom and bust cycle of popularity of the species seen in the hobby and the lack of maintence of genetic diversity...

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

*Re: Touchy subject*



Reptiledan said:


> I suppose there are several different ways to answer this but since its opinionated here we go.... Frogs are already declining in nature without collecting so why not establish captive born populations and learn how to conserve the species that still do exist?
> If frogs were permitted to be exported in small amounts would the wild population even notice? Competition for food and living quarters is present in every other animal in nature who is to say its not present in the frog land also..
> Dont get me wrong I am a firm believer in concervation, but there has to be a line. A good habitat management program could allow export of a certain number of WC frogs and produce CB programs..alot of info can be attained from a solid CB progam...who knows Atelopus frogs may be well established in Captivity if a solid research progam would have existed 25 years ago..


I am a firm believer in sustainable harvest in some areas and in leaving other areas alone. But as Ed points out, to be able to really do this, you need to conduct inventory of the resources, develop a harvest management plan that accounts for the known biology of the resources, monitor the resources to make sure the management is actually achieving objectives, and enforcement to make sure things actually get done as stipulated. On top of this, I would add that I would want significant proceeds from the sale of these things put into local economies in ways that promote the preservation of intact habitat. In theory, it is all a good idea, but actually making it work in practices is challenging. INIBICO and Understory are two fine examples of what might work. But years and years of effort have gone into those projects.

I will also agree with Ed that having captive populations just for the sake of "saving" the animals in captivity is not good enough for me. If the animals do not exist as wild populations, then they are not part of the global ecosystem and therefore are not providing the functions that make the world a diverse, productive, and hospitable place. For me, bringing animals into captivity for the purposes of conservation is only justified if we go the extra mile to collect the animals and maintain them in a way that preserves their locally adapted genetic integrity so that the animals may some day be restored to the wild.

And once we have decided, in concept, that preserving animals in captivity is a good idea, we need to prioritize. It simply isn't feasible to maintain all species in captivity. So which ones do we target? I would contend that in most cases it is a waste of money and effort to target species that are threatened mainly by habitat destruction. There is a mountain of evidence to show that protecting the habitat directly is a much more cost-effective and successful method for protecting species. So if the sale of frogs will protect habitat that they need to live in the wild, I am for it (provided the sustainability issues are addressed). But if we are going to extract frogs so we can have them in our living rooms while we allow their habitat in the wild to be destroyed, you can count me out.

Just to summarize, I do agree that extracting frogs from the wild can, and does, serve a conservation purpose. But there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. Frankly, historically this hobby has done things the wrong way. But that is changing and I do think we can begin to have a much more positive impact.


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## OneTwentySix (Nov 11, 2004)

Ed and Brent are right. Just because the smugglers are providing a service desired by many people (making available new species) doesn't make it right or harmless. It's more than just going out, collecting frogs, and selling them to the markets. Significant habitat damage can occur as the smugglers try to get at the frogs, and like Ed said, a large number of frogs die during transport. Not to mention the possibility of pathogen transport on the clothes and shoes of the smugglers; researchers often times go to extreme lengths to prevent the spreading of chytrid to the animals they're studying and even then it still has happened.

And when you remove the incentive to the natives to protect and sustainably harvest the animals, you've damaged conservation and a potential benefit to local economies, and that's what's going to preserve populations indefinately.

When you justify harmful and illegal activites for the sake of a hobby, you're missing the big picture. Our hobby shouldn't negatively affect the world, but smuggling is doing just that.


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## hockeyboy (Oct 7, 2012)

The smuggling Of any animal is wrong


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

Digging up 7 year old threads... 
Only 5 more to go hockeyboy.


Sean


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> snip "I'm not saying necessarily rare frogs... I am mainly referring to frogs that are already in high numbers in captivity (for example"endsnip
> 
> It hasn't stopped the smuggling of D. auratus......
> 
> ...


Is that example from 2004? how many were smuggled in 2012?

I don't think people would stop smuggling frogs because there are always going to be those looking for WC animals or those who want "fresh blood" in their collections. I guess if you looked auratus example, you can get them for what, $30 bucks? How much would a WC be, $60 or more? I still think they should let mysteriosis beb exported though. They supposedly breed like rabbits in EU.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

JaredJ said:


> Is that example from 2004? how many were smuggled in 2012?
> 
> I don't think people would stop smuggling frogs because there are always going to be those looking for WC animals or those who want "fresh blood" in their collections. I guess if you looked auratus example, you can get them for what, $30 bucks? How much would a WC be, $60 or more? I still think they should let mysteriosis beb exported though. They supposedly breed like rabbits in EU.


How about we wait till (IF) mysteriosus are taken off the endangered species list? Until then there is no way anyone can justify it. Atelopus zeteki breed like crazy in captivity too, but they shouldn't be made legal either.

Also, while he did dig up two very old threads, they do have some relevance given the recent Euro sylvatica that came in.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

thedude said:


> How about we wait till (IF) mysteriosus are taken off the endangered species list? Until then there is no way anyone can justify it. Atelopus zeteki breed like crazy in captivity too, but they shouldn't be made legal either.
> 
> Also, while he did dig up two very old threads, they do have some relevance given the recent Euro sylvatica that came in.


True, but it would be nice to see the offspring of the ones already in the US be allowed to be sold, they could eventually feed the hobby. I know it would still incite more smuggling but it sucks that people are selling/trading these beauties behind closed doors.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

JaredJ said:


> True, but it would be nice to see the offspring of the ones already in the US be allowed to be sold, they could eventually feed the hobby. I know it would still incite more smuggling but it sucks that people are selling/trading these beauties behind closed doors.


No that would still fuel smuggling and effectively eliminate any possibility of conservation projects in the future.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

JaredJ said:


> I still think they should let mysteriosis beb exported though. They supposedly breed like rabbits in EU.


Might I suggest a perfectly legal, and under appreciated frogs such as Dendrobates auratus "Camo" . Just as lovely IMO, and would be cool to see more people working with them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Is that example from 2004? how many were smuggled in 2012?
> 
> I don't think people would stop smuggling frogs because there are always going to be those looking for WC animals or those who want "fresh blood" in their collections. I guess if you looked auratus example, you can get them for what, $30 bucks? How much would a WC be, $60 or more? I still think they should let mysteriosis beb exported though. They supposedly breed like rabbits in EU.


Numbers from 2012 aren't available since 2012 isn't over yet.. 

As for allowing any smuggled mysteriosus to be legal would simply not only incentivize further smuggling (well sooner or later they would be legal) but increase smuggling to fill demand that isn't met from the already smuggled animals.. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

heyduke said:


> Digging up 7 year old threads...
> Only 5 more to go hockeyboy.
> 
> 
> Sean



He did it 25!!!!!!


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