# Do my frogs need vitamin A???



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I just pulled the eggs below out of my Yellow Head tank the other day. 14 eggs...and all of them no good...again! 

I know Repashy Vit A is supposed to rectify this...but *can *lack of Vit A be the problem? I purchased my girls in November of last year and continuously dusted every single feeding with Repashy Calcium +ICB until May of this year when I switched to Repashy Calcium Plus. They should be chock full of Vitamin A by now...shouldn't they???

They are 17 months old now and just started breeding about 3 weeks ago. So...I am wondering...could it possibly just be that they are new to breeding? I've heard sometimes it will take a while to get good eggs...but about *how *long is that???

I've waited what seems like forever for baby Yellow Heads! I'm starting to get depressed now.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

They just started breeding 3 weeks ago? Be patient, they'll get it right. 

Dusting occasionally with vit A isn't a bad idea regardless though....


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

When I started writing...it seemed like a lot longer than 3 weeks! Lol! (I had to look that part up!) I figured I'd ask anyhow though.

How long does it usually take newly breeding tincs to start laying good eggs? I did have one that started to develop only to die about half-way through.

So, you don't think it has anything to do with vit a deficiency? Like I said...I've dusted every feeding which has been daily til recently. I've cut down feeding to adults about 5 days a week now.

How many times would you suggest dusting with Vit A if it's not an actual problem? Once a month...twice a month???


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## Tadbit (Jul 16, 2010)

Here's an interesting thread concerning Vit A where Sports_Doc and Ed were discussing some of the same Vit A supplementation thoughts you are wondering about.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by sports_doc
> I have some.
> 
> ...





> Originally Posted by Ed
> Hi Shawn,
> 
> There is a risk of overdosing and I have concerns if people move to a easily dusted retinol only product. If we are willing to look at the empirical anecdotal evidence we can see that at least before the modification of the Repashy supplements, just using those supplements did not resolve symptoms of hypovitaminosis.
> ...


The entire thread can be found here:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/67739-vitamin-tablets.html

All that said I'd vote just give them more time.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi Wendy

I've had Tincs pump out good eggs on their first shot and then there were the Bakhuis. These guys took forever to get it right. Multiple bad eggs and when I did get good eggs, I ended up with three straight batches of SLS. Now they are my best breeders. Go figure! All of the frogs were given the same supps.

They just need some more time.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks everyone. I figured I might just be in too big a hurry...but I've never heard anyone say how long it takes before new breeders start giving good eggs. Actually, I thought once whatever eggs they had stored up before breeding were depleted, new/good eggs would start magically popping out. Lol!

Also...I didn't want to start shoving Vitamin A down their little throats if it wasn't something they needed. I know you have to be careful with that stuff and don't believe in taking unnecessary risks. Especially with my favorite frogs!

So...I guess it's just a matter of MORE time... (sigh!)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually there is a train of thought that the frogs shouldn't be having to get it right. (Think about it, that would be as significant maladaption in the wild given that they have a significantly reduced life span in the wild and any reduction of fertililty is a major stressor as it requires nutrients, as egg formation depletes fats, and stored vitamins.), it is also well known that invertebrates are poor sources of vitamin A in the wild and captivity so anything that reduces fertility is significantly reducing the chance the frog is going to pass along it's genes in the wild 

I'm of that school of thought... so yes your frogs may need a source of vitamin A to get it right..


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks so much, Ed. If you wouldn't have spelled it out for me...I may have never gotten the Vit A. (I'll have it ordered before the week is out!) I've read many, many threads before about people saying that they just "haven't gotten it figured out yet"...so I thought this was the norm for new breeders. If that is not the case (and must not be since you said so!) I definitely want to do something about it. I've been waiting for over nine months to see some babies!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WendySHall said:


> Thanks so much, Ed. If you wouldn't have spelled it out for me...I may have never gotten the Vit A. (I'll have it ordered before the week is out!) I've read many, many threads before about people saying that they just "haven't gotten it figured out yet"...so I thought this was the norm for new breeders. If that is not the case (and must not be since you said so!) I definitely want to do something about it. I've been waiting for over nine months to see some babies!


People typically don't think about it as the whole "takes time to get it right" has been passed around for a long time.. probably because that is what often happened but if we look at it in context of wild frogs, it becomes more clear that it should be signaling something isn't right. 

Ed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I know that I've read your posts before of dosing once a month to once a week... do you have any recommendations for my case as to how often and for how long? As I said before, they've been continuously fed flies dusted with Repashy Calcium + ICB followed by Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding (nearly daily) since I've had them and I believe the breeder also used Repashy. I don't want to risk over-dosing them...and hate to under-dose as well.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Wendy, I have had pairs produce good eggs first time breeding, others after a few duds. My first pair of Azurius years ago had 85 eggs that were bad before laying good ones, and all the pairs were on the same regimin of food and supplements. This pair of Azurius I still have and they are stil producing regulary, usually every 10 days, I have had them since the early 90's.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

WendySHall said:


> I know that I've read your posts before of dosing once a month to once a week... do you have any recommendations for my case as to how often and for how long? As I said before, they've been continuously fed flies dusted with Repashy Calcium + ICB followed by Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding (nearly daily) since I've had them and I believe the breeder also used Repashy. I don't want to risk over-dosing them...and hate to under-dose as well.


Wendy, Calcium + ICB and Calcium Plus are the same product... it was relabeled.


Edit- just re-read the first post, misunderstood the wording in the quote


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Yes...I meant that I discontinued the Cal +ICB and started with Cal Plus once it came out. Are you sure it was just relabeled? I thought I read a while back that there was some type of change to it...but maybe I'm wrong. I do know that the Cal Plus doesn't seem to want to "stick" as well to the flies. It seems finer...not as "thick" and the flies seem like they have the ability to "hang on" to things a lot easier than the older product. I used to use a strainer to separate the flies from the excess powder...but I can't do that with the newer stuff...they are able to hang on to the strainer and get everywhere! I wish the consistency would go back to what it was.

Well...the pics in my thread were pulled from the tank on Sunday. This morning I pulled a clutch of 5 more (also bad), and one of the females is in there right now trying to get him in the hut again! If they would've all been good eggs, I'd be over-flowing in tads right now!

I'm really hoping that once they do start developing, I don't have to go through SLS issues as FrogFreak stated. That would be absolutely terrible.


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## sstock (Mar 12, 2009)

I had a pair of azureus that produced bad eggs for over a year. It may be coincidence but right after I started supplementing with retinyl twice a month the clutches turned good. Now three months later they are my best producers.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WendySHall said:


> Yes...I meant that I discontinued the Cal +ICB and started with Cal Plus once it came out. Are you sure it was just relabeled? I thought I read a while back that there was some type of change to it...but maybe I'm wrong. I do know that the Cal Plus doesn't seem to want to "stick" as well to the flies. It seems finer...not as "thick" and the flies seem like they have the ability to "hang on" to things a lot easier than the older product. I used to use a strainer to separate the flies from the excess powder...but I can't do that with the newer stuff...they are able to hang on to the strainer and get everywhere! I wish the consistency would go back to what it was.
> 
> Well...the pics in my thread were pulled from the tank on Sunday. This morning I pulled a clutch of 5 more (also bad), and one of the females is in there right now trying to get him in the hut again! If they would've all been good eggs, I'd be over-flowing in tads right now!
> 
> I'm really hoping that once they do start developing, I don't have to go through SLS issues as FrogFreak stated. That would be absolutely terrible.


There are some changes in it, mainly some additional carotenoids that are better used by the frogs which is different than other available supplments. If it doesn't stick well you can always take an extra step and regrind what you are going to use that day quickly in a small morter and pestle. That will allow you to get a very fine grind on it. I do this on occasion as well. I use the calcium plus.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sstock said:


> I had a pair of azureus that produced bad eggs for over a year. It may be coincidence but right after I started supplementing with retinyl twice a month the clutches turned good. Now three months later they are my best producers.


While anecdotal, it fits the pattern seen in trials reported by some vets and Zoos with increased vitamin A supplementation. 

Ed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Well, at least that's good news! It seems like it must work fairly quickly. For some reason (don't know if it was something I read or not), I was under the impression that it may take months to correct. 

So...I was thinking of doing it this way...

Once a week for a month, then...
Twice a month for a month, then...
Once a month continuously.

Will that hurt anything?

Will it hurt anything by giving it to the other adults once a month even if they're having no problems?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Based on the anecdotal evidence, that dosing schedule is probably fine (disclaimer I'm not a vet..). 

It can take a long time to resolve if the additional vitamin A isn't used as the frogs have to store up the vitamin A and constant reproductive efforts remove those nutrients as they go towards provisioning the eggs. 

The other frogs may also have subclinical vitamin A deficiency (just not showing symptoms), so it is fine for them as well as long as you don't do it more than once a week. 

Ed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks so much, Ed & everyone, for the information and experiences. Hopefully now I can get my YH's straightened around and have some healthy little froglets soon. I know I can't be the only one who needed all of this spelled out for them. So, I'm sure you've helped lots of us who were unsure on the Vit A issue.

Best wishes to all,
~Wendy


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