# Why so many bad breeders? :(



## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

After spending a while surfing the net in search of blackwater vents and red galacts, I have found that a number of the breeders you will find are horribly ignorant, or extremely outdated. Take for example "dendophyllobates.org", a new breeder who still uses the old system of classification and calls most Ranitomeya Phyllobates, and what's more is he spells Phyllobates wrong (e.g. "Filobates reticulatus"). Seriously? You can't bother to learn the name of the frog you're keeping? Also, the prices the guy is asking for are insane, $250 each for some severely underweight Costa Rican auratus. Come ON, the local aquarium store sells healthier frogs than that for a quarter of the price! Which brings me to a more important point: His frogs look half-starved. He probably keeps them in a 2-gallon viv with plastic plants and provides humidity once a week...Just goes to show you the level of commitment a person has when they can't bother to find out what the name of the frog is...It looks like he has shut down his website which is good news, maybe he stopped selling his frogs, but I wouldn't bet on it. 

Mind you not all "bad" breeders are that terrible. However I have run into breeders so outdated that they don't know what an Oophaga is...Now that in itself isn't a problem, but the thing is they often give their customers outdated information too. For instance, one time at an expo, I met a breeder who told me that nobody had successfully bred "Dendrobates pumilio". -_-

Anyway, does anyone else have experience with bad breeders? Just thought I'd share.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This site sort of radiates "flipper".

s


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## Amphinityfrogs (Jan 30, 2013)

wow, just wow. I just got into breeding darts about a year ago and to me if you breed and sell something you want to be as up to date as possible. Its sad when a customer is more knowledgeable about something than the vender. I bet that breeder you found is just in it because he thought he could make some easy quick cash. Poor frogs, I want to go rescue them if they look as bad as you say.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Can you provide link to this site, I can't find anything on it.

D


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

So negative vender feedback is permitted now scott?


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

I cant even locate this site nor any similar spelled one???????


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm new to the hobby as well, with that being said, I would have a tough time buying blindly. Of course there are multiple reputable breeders on this site and elsewhere, but there's something to be said about the ability to go to the breeders house, look at how they take care of the frogs, and buy with confidence.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

pdfCrazy said:


> I cant even locate this site nor any similar spelled one???????


I know, it seems that he took it down.


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> I know, it seems that he took it down.


Even if they took it down not a thing comes up on google kinda strange to me


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Is this based on experience? That would be negative vendor feedback.

This is based on observation I believe.

s


NathanB said:


> So negative vender feedback is permitted now scott?


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I would suggest there are not that many bad breeders, there are a lot of bad frog sellers. If someone puts enough care into their frogs to breed them they are at least providing the fundamentals. The 2 you describe above I would highly doubt have ever bred a dart frog. With just a tiny bit of effort finding legitamite breeders in your area is usually pretty simple. The internet has lots of outdated stuff of people that tried things a couple of years ago and walked away but left their access available but most sites specializing in darts can point you in the right direction with as I said...a tiny bit of effort.
If someone does not have the speices names correct you can take that as a pretty big red flag to stay away.


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## Therek (Dec 24, 2007)

However I have run into breeders so outdated that they don't know what an Oophaga is...Now that in itself isn't a problem, but the thing is they often give their customers outdated information too. For instance, one time at an expo, I met a breeder who told me that nobody had successfully bred "Dendrobates pumilio". 

Please, please, please tell me which vendor at this expo told you this. There are very very few frog vendors at Canadian shows, all who have successfully bred Pumilio. Bad mouthing an already small group of hobbiest does nothing to grow our hobby.

Was it:
Green Oasis?
Understory?
Dartfroginc?

There are NO OTHER FROG VENDORS AT Canadian shows!

Maybe it was the same guy who sold the giant Terribilis... 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/phyllobates/63315-freakin-huge-terribilis-11.html#post596135

I call BS.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Therek said:


> However I have run into breeders so outdated that they don't know what an Oophaga is...Now that in itself isn't a problem, but the thing is they often give their customers outdated information too. For instance, one time at an expo, I met a breeder who told me that nobody had successfully bred "Dendrobates pumilio".
> 
> Please, please, please tell me which vendor at this expo told you this. There are very very few frog vendors at Canadian shows, all who have successfully bred Pumilio. Bad mouthing an already small group of hobbiest does nothing to grow our hobby.
> 
> ...


The vendor was called Friendly Frogs. The expo was in the summer of 2011. I have not seen that vendor since. Don't be so quick to point fingers when you obviously either have not been attending expos for long or have not seen every vendor. 'Friendly Frogs' will not generate any Google search results, I'll tell you that now; I don't think the old guy ever had a site. He was terribly outdated though. If you want I could refer you to other users who have been to the Friendly Frogs expo.

Oh, for...
That thread is THREE YEARS OLD. I was a 13 year old kid back then and couldn't tell a terribilis from an unusually yellow American green tree frog! I know it was a ridiculous thread, but MOVE THE **** ON. 

/Rant


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## Therek (Dec 24, 2007)

Strange, the person you are referring to had adds on this board and all other boards selling Pums, he also imported 200+ Pums.
The Expo you are referring to was 18 months ago, who is living in the past?

I could have also added your: I have created a new morph! Which later (after you found hybridization was bad) changed your story...

Instead of spinning negative garbage (by your own admission is 18 months old and no longer relevant), say what is right about the hobby in Canada now; with more quality breeders and importers than ever before, many more hobbyists than ever and a solid growing community.

Nice playing the "I was a kid" card as I find your OP and your response childish and in no way based on current facts.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> The vendor was called Friendly Frogs. The expo was in the summer of 2011. I have not seen that vendor since.


I've talked to Al a few times, and I know that he has bred pumilio himself. maybe you misunderstood him? I agree he isnt necessarily up-to-date though...


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

FYI, many in the scientific community still use Dendrobates with re to pumilio as the new phyllogenies are quite young and not necessarily universally accepted.


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## brad0608 (Jun 5, 2012)

Iv never met a breeder who knows less than me. Im not the foremost expert buti do know what an oophaga is.


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

brad0608 said:


> Iv never met a breeder who knows less than me. Im not the foremost expert buti do know what an oophaga is.


As Ray pointed out, not using Oophaga doesn't mean you "don't know." When newer hobbyists start to learn their frogs, they assume the current taxonomy has always been the way it is now. They don't understand that not so long ago, Dendrobates was a genus encompassing many of the available hobby animals. Many of these frogs were 'Dendrobates' far longer than their current 'Oophaga' or 'Ranitomeya' classifications.

-Pat


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

patm said:


> As Ray pointed out, not using Oophaga doesn't mean you "don't know." When newer hobbyists start to learn their frogs, they assume the current taxonomy has always been the way it is now. They don't understand that not so long ago, Dendrobates was a genus encompassing many of the available hobby animals. Many of these frogs were 'Dendrobates' far longer than their current 'Oophaga' or 'Ranitomeya' classifications.
> 
> -Pat


Just like R. Lamasi was recently change to R. Sirensis. Many people still think the name is Lamasi, so it often goes by lamasi. They still know what they are doing, they just didn't get the memo about the name change.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> After spending a while surfing the net in search of blackwater vents and red galacts, I have found that a number of the breeders you will find are horribly ignorant, or extremely outdated. Take for example "dendophyllobates.org", a new breeder who still uses the old system of classification and calls most Ranitomeya Phyllobates, and what's more is he spells Phyllobates wrong (e.g. "Filobates reticulatus"). Seriously? You can't bother to learn the name of the frog you're keeping? Also, the prices the guy is asking for are insane, $250 each for some severely underweight Costa Rican auratus. Come ON, the local aquarium store sells healthier frogs than that for a quarter of the price! Which brings me to a more important point: His frogs look half-starved. He probably keeps them in a 2-gallon viv with plastic plants and provides humidity once a week...Just goes to show you the level of commitment a person has when they can't bother to find out what the name of the frog is...It looks like he has shut down his website which is good news, maybe he stopped selling his frogs, but I wouldn't bet on it.
> 
> Mind you not all "bad" breeders are that terrible. However I have run into breeders so outdated that they don't know what an Oophaga is...Now that in itself isn't a problem, but the thing is they often give their customers outdated information too. For instance, one time at an expo, I met a breeder who told me that nobody had successfully bred "Dendrobates pumilio". -_-
> 
> Anyway, does anyone else have experience with bad breeders? Just thought I'd share.



What about your user name? Those two names don't go together and azureus is no longer accepted as a species.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

You also have to realize that just because someone wrote a paper about a new classification system, that doesn't mean all scientists agree with it or are bound to it.

People like to know what is right or wrong. Science isn't always that way, especially when it comes to classification. We can't even get all scientists to agree on how many Kingdoms there are, much less genus and species.


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## moore40 (Jan 29, 2008)

frog dude said:


> Just like R. Lamasi was recently change to R. Sirensis. Many people still think the name is Lamasi, so it often goes by lamasi. They still know what they are doing, they just didn't get the memo about the name change.


Crap, now I have to look for another name when I just want some damn lamasi. Lol


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

phender said:


> You also have to realize that just because someone wrote a paper about a new classification system, that doesn't mean all scientists agree with it or are bound to it.


In case you were referring to the genera _Ranitomeya_ or _Oophaga_, both were initially proposed quite a while ago, 1986 and 1994 respectively (you may have just been referring to combining lamasi/sirensis though...).


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

easternversant said:


> In case you were referring to the genera _Ranitomeya_ or _Oophaga_, both were initially proposed quite a while ago, 1986 and 1994 respectively (you may have just been referring to combining lamasi/sirensis though...).


I was speaking more in general. To my knowledge there is no "universal committee" that approves all new naming systems. It is pretty much up to the individual to accept the new naming system or not.

If you google Dendrobates pumilio you will find quite a few papers (some more scientific than others) written after 2000 that don't use Oophaga or even mention it. Interestingly enough, the pumilio caresheet on this very website is one of them.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Therek said:


> Strange, the person you are referring to had adds on this board and all other boards selling Pums, he also imported 200+ Pums.
> The Expo you are referring to was 18 months ago, who is living in the past?
> 
> I could have also added your: I have created a new morph! Which later (after you found hybridization was bad) changed your story...
> ...


Conversely, you do not know how to read the title of a thread properly. It was "Did I just create a new morph?" and based on a miscommunication over the phone. Friendly Frogs did refer to "Dendrobates pumilio" which is forgivable. However he did claim to be among the first to ever successfully breed them.

Do you have nothing better to do with your life than degrade another user on a board based on a thread that he made 3 years earlier and another that you did not read correctly? Maybe I am being hyper-critical of Friendly Frogs based on his choice of words. Maybe I'm wrong. But blasting me with insults is absolutely pointless, so please stop.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Back OT,

I personally will excuse breeders for taxonomic mix-ups. Poor care is another matter altogether. I mean, look at this powder blue at an expo. It is severely underweight and was being kept with a leucomelas. Disgraceful.


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

I love attending shows just to see what's in the reptile/amphibian hobby these days. That being said, I normally only purchase plants and dry goods. I've been seeing far more frog flippers recently than I can ever remember, but they are clearly targeting beginners looking to make an uninformed purchase. The last show I went to, a vendor selling everything under the sun had a couple D.t. azureus he was selling as "blueberry dart frogs." 

Needless to say, know your vendor. Vendor lists are usually posted pre-show, and a few, simple questions to the seller can usually identify who is selling quality animals and who is flipping questionable ones.

-Pat


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> Back OT,
> 
> I personally will excuse breeders for taxonomic mix-ups. Poor care is another matter altogether. I mean, look at this powder blue at an expo. It is severely underweight and was being kept with a leucomelas. Disgraceful.


I would hardly call that "severely underweight". Keep in mind, most people in our hobby keep their frogs pretty much obese... When it comes to the frogs being mixed, are they breeding? If not, what point are you trying to make about someone displaying frogs together? Tell me you take every last precaution to keep your tanks completely free of cross contamination (sterilize everything and wash your hands between tanks) and then you can talk down to whoever you want.

I'm not trying to jump down your throat or anything here... but people make mistakes... take it easy. You have to understand that if you come out swinging someone may swing back. It is the internet afterall...


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Going back through your posts, and seeing that you consider yourself a breeder, I'm not sure if I would be too quick to throw stones if I were you.


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

This backfired quickly


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)




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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

VicSkimmr said:


> Going back through your posts, and seeing that you consider yourself a breeder, I'm not sure if I would be too quick to throw stones if I were you.


Whoa, just because I've bred auratus doesn't automatically make me a breeder, at least not to the point of the guys that I've talked about. I don't recall ever referring to myself as a breeder. Can you please show me where I did so?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> I don't recall ever referring to myself as a breeder. Can you please show me where I did so?


You had it in your profile.... You changed it now, but it was there... People don't forget


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

I agree that that Power Blue looks underweight.


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## Therek (Dec 24, 2007)

I think his idea was to badmouth all the Canadian breeders and then become the new breeder king of Canada.
Class act!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I think we've seen enough on this one.

Closed.

s


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