# My first dart frog vivarium



## Sun_Queen (Jan 9, 2013)

I've started to construct my first dart frog vivarium in a standard 20 gallon high  So far i have some plants in there but I clearly want to add some more (pictures at the end) hopefully a larger bromeliad, a few more tillandsias, and another small bromeliad.

I would love some advice on anything else I might need to add to make this a perfect environment for my future frogs! I tend to be a slow and steady person as far as building things goes so I'm willing to spend as much time as it takes to make this perfect. I'm also a bit of a nut about research so i tend to be cautious about jumping right into things!

Also some advice on stocking frogs would be greatly appreciated. I would like a species that is relatively bold, visible, and not to difficult to breed. I was thinking about leucs, or tincs, or auratus (I love thumbnails but I know those aren't good for beginners) 
Are there any others I could/should consider? and how many can I plan to get? (from what I've read I should stick to pairs or maybe a trio of leucs?)

Thanks for any help you can give!


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

I still consider myself fairly new to the hobby, so I'm a little cautious on handing out any advice.

I think you have a great start! I agree, so more plants to green it up and help hold humidity would be good. I love the air plants, but from what I understand, unless you have some decent airflow, they'll possibly "melt". I have 11 vivs setup and only keep tillandsias in my 150 with vents and internal fans.

If you're looking for some frogs that are bold, then leucs and tincs are the great "beginner" frogs. Auratus are generally much more shy(not always).

Looks like you've done a great job researching and prepping! Hopefully more "seasoned" keepers will provide you with much more advice and guidance.

Oh, one more thing to consider is micro fauna and fruit flies. Many suggest practicing and getting the hang of doing your FF cultures prior to buying your first frogs. It also works out great if you seed your viv with springs and isopods ahead of time so they can get established. 

Subscribed and looking forward to watching your progress! Keep us posted!

Thanks, Chris


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## trevorthetoad (Nov 5, 2012)

There are plenty of hardier species of thumbnail frogs that wouldn't be bad for a beginner. My pair of vents are the first frogs I've ever kept, and in my experience the adult frogs and their tadpoles are pretty easy to care for.


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## Sun_Queen (Jan 9, 2013)

Thanks for helping out everyone! 

So far my tillandsias seem alright, but I'll keep an eye on them! My glass top doesn't have ventilation drilled yet but hopefully that will keep them going well (the species I'm getting aren't as sensitive to airflow as some species)

Also, I forgot to mention but my tank is already seeded with springtails and their population has skyrocketed since I put them in. (I'm probably also going to order some isopods when I order more plants. 

I may look into the thumbnails since I do like them a lot, but if anyone has more advice on that it'd be greatly appreciated!


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## andya26 (Mar 27, 2012)

Sun_Queen said:


> I may look into the thumbnails since I do like them a lot, but if anyone has more advice on that it'd be greatly appreciated!


I tend to agree with the previous statement that there are thumbs that are very doable for beginners, especially if you only have 1 or 2 tanks and you can focus all of your attention on the thumbs they will be fine. You seem to be a studious person and if you do the research and know what they need there is no reason to be intimidated by thumbnails. 

On the topic of plants (particularly with thumbs) you will want more broms in there as they tend to utilize the broms for perches/hiding spots. You are on the right track, continue to get your tank established and go from there. 

Good luck!


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## Sun_Queen (Jan 9, 2013)

If I was going to get thumbnails (vents in particular) how many could I have in my 20 gallon? I don't want to have fighting or anything, but could I have more than a pair?


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## trevorthetoad (Nov 5, 2012)

Vents and variabilis do well in small groups, but I don't know exactly how many you could keep in a 20 gallon. I keep my pair of vents in a 10 gallon. Vents and variabilis don't egg feed, so if you want them to breed I recommend using film canisters and having no bromeliads, since eggs are easier to find and pull from film canisters. I have heard that vanzolinii and sirensis will egg feed and do well in groups, although I am not 100% sure. Imitators will egg feed, but do not do as well in groups.


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## Sun_Queen (Jan 9, 2013)

I have got to say I LOVE Variabilis (and vents! which is generally bolder?), but I'll definitely do more research into them before I decide what I want to get. Even If i get them though I will want to have some bromeliads (I love plants and broms. are my favorites!) but I could have some film canisters as well.


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## trevorthetoad (Nov 5, 2012)

I don't know which species is bolder. Different frogs have different personalities, so it may vary depending on the individual frogs you get as opposed to species.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I really love your tank. Even without the future plants. It just has a really good look about it. Can't wait to see it again with frogs 

Luecs would take advantage of climbing on those cool branches. Tincs might some but not a lot. As for thumbnails not being for beginners, as long as you do your reading (which you have been) and are ready with springtails and flies, they really aren't any more difficult than any other frog, IMO. They are just a lot smaller. Smaller than you think they are


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Sun_Queen said:


> I have got to say I LOVE Variabilis (and vents! which is generally bolder?), but I'll definitely do more research into them before I decide what I want to get. Even If i get them though I will want to have some bromeliads (I love plants and broms. are my favorites!) but I could have some film canisters as well.


From my experience, vents are more bold... I had some iquitos that literally just crawled around the tank everywhere and called like crazy. I could stick my hand in and they would just stare at me. 

Variabilis are fairly bold too, but mine are nowhere near as bold as my vents were. My Variabilis are on my desk, and while they don't mind me being around... they will go running if I make fast movements or start opening the tank.

Keep in mind, a lot of thumbnails are considered "advanced" mostly because of the difficulty breeding them. Beyond breeding issues, a lot of it just boils down to what Kris mentioned... Keeping a good supply of flies and microfauna. If possible, I would just recommend getting some that are a little older if they are going to be your first frog (6+ months).


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## Sun_Queen (Jan 9, 2013)

Right now I have it narrowed down to R. ventrimaculatus/variabilis and D.Leucomelas.

The traits I'm mainly looking for are: Boldness and easiness/likelihood of breeding. Oh and ones that would be happy in my size tank (preferably in trios/groups, but pair would be alright too) As far as boldness goes, I mostly want frogs that I'll be able to see, but they don't have to be all visible all the time.

I think in the long run I'd love any of these frogs, so I'd like some help deciding on which ones would be best.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

In addition to being bold, Leucs are just much bigger frogs in general so there is always that to factor into the equation. They will by far be the most visible frogs of the three choices there. You shouldnt have a problem keeping 3 in a tank like that.

From what I have seen, vents can be just as bold... but naturally because of their small size they arent as "visible". Mine were big glass climbers, especially after I put in a lot of film canisters with suction cups. The males would climb up to the canisters and call and call and call... Getting a small male heavy group would be my suggestion. These guys breed like rabbits and a female heavy group could have you inundated with tads. Having a couple males to compete over a female will likely make them more visible as they try to out-call each other.


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## Sun_Queen (Jan 9, 2013)

when you order frogs you can't tell their gender until they get older correct? how do you get more of one than the other except for luck?

also, how many vents could live together in my tank comfortably?


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## Bjcg (Jan 4, 2013)

Sun_Queen said:


> when you order frogs you can't tell their gender until they get older correct? how do you get more of one than the other except for luck?
> 
> also, how many vents could live together in my tank comfortably?


Not unless you get an old one already. I think josh's frogs gives you the option to choose gender?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

It depends on how old the frogs are when you buy them... Buying juveniles is cheaper but you won't know the sexes. On the other end, you will pay a premium for older sexed frogs. Keep an eye on the classifieds section or take a look at the sponsors to see what they are offering.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

First I think your tank is off to a great start. I don't really see any of the frogs to be "hard". It seems the big question is more like, are you willing to pay the price? 

The way you have done your tank it seems best for leucs, IMO. I have not raised them but I have raised vents (or thumbs). Vents really like to spend time up high. They are very small and fast, which can make them difficult, as they can get out tiny holes in the tank. Despite their size they are very beautiful. They breed very easily in my experience and from what others have said. I am pulling tads every month from the film cans in the tank. There have been many posts about people breaking down the tank and finding vent froglets hidden in the leaf litter. If you can add more ledges and spots for the vents to stay up high, they will be happy. However, it seems a perfect set up for the leucs as they like to climb and use the ground. 

I look forward to seeing what you do and what you get


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Sun_Queen said:


> when you order frogs you can't tell their gender until they get older correct? how do you get more of one than the other except for luck?
> 
> also, how many vents could live together in my tank comfortably?


Vents are hard to sex in general. Most breeders will give a best guess but they will not guarantee the gender unless it is a proven pair. You could easily put 4-6 or even more. I have 3 in an 18x18x24 but was told by a very well known breeder that I could have put a couple more in there. I just personally like to have more space and less frogs but that is me.


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## trevorthetoad (Nov 5, 2012)

My vents lay eggs every 11 or so days in warmer weather, and the tadpoles are easy to raise. Vents breed well in groups and in my experience are very bold. They are not restricted to the upper reaches of the tank, and mine actually seem to prefer foraging for microfauna in the plants and leaf litter in the bottom of the tank rather than the upper parts of the tank.


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## trevorthetoad (Nov 5, 2012)

You should ask different breeders if they can sell you sexed individuals, because many times they will have probable pairs that they don't list on their websites.


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## Sun_Queen (Jan 9, 2013)

Oh wow thanks everyone for all the help! I'm definitely leaning towards the vents... maybe a group of 4? I'm going to add at least 3 bromeliads and several film canisters. 

Also, I'm going to order a top to drill for ventilation and an automatic misting system (mistking)

When I drill the ventilation, should I do many very small holes or should I drill 3-5 bigger holes and have screen sealed over them? I want to have a balance between making my plants happy and keeping humidity up. With the misting system I could have it mist more frequently if I have to, to make up for the larger holes. I was thinking that the larger ventilation would be better for the viv. if I can keep humidity up. any thoughts?


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## Cory2 (Oct 21, 2012)

3-4 vents would be perfect in a twenty gallon tall,and they are easy to care for


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## Sun_Queen (Jan 9, 2013)

Awesome! I'm excited about getting these guys!

does anyone have any input on the ventilation?


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