# Tesoros gets permits?!



## MasterOogway

From the Tesoros Facebook page;

Dear all, 
Tesoros de Colombia proudly announces the news we have all been patiently waiting for! We have finally been given the necessary permits to export Colombian large obligate egg-feeders by the national authorities!

For the first time ever!!!, legal captive bred Oophaga histrionica and O. lehmanni will be made available by our sustainable Colombian farm. The Colombian government tasked us with the important responsibility of including our biocommerce project into a larger national conservation plan framework—a project with includes in situ conservation, as well as a new zero tolerance policy regarding amphibian smuggling. 

We wish to thank all our many supporters for standing by us throughout these hard times. We wouldn’t have been able to achieve this monumental goal without all your support!


----------



## Dane

Fantastic news! I hate to admit that I thought it might not happen, but this is very encouraging! I'm sure this will provide a significant boost in funding for their efforts.

Edit: Hopefully these frogs wind up in the hands of several qualified froggers, as opposed to being purchased by a single individual, and being distributed as he sees fit.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Pretty awesome news.

Dane, I do also share your concerns.

Hopefully they will limit initial purchases to a number of qualified individuals and certainly not any one person.


----------



## kblack3

Agreed that way new guys like me will have multiple options once we have devolved our experience in the hobby over the course of a few years. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rigel10

I think that their price will keep away the inexperienced. Too bad I do not have vivs so large and worthy for these majestic frogs!


----------



## hypostatic

rigel10 said:


> I think that their price will keep away the inexperienced. Too bad I do not have vivs so large and worthy for these majestic frogs!


Yeah, I probably won't be seeing these frogs for a few years due to the price haha.

But yeah, they should limit the frogs so that not just one person gets all of them...

Anyone know if the frogs are gonna be microchipped or anything?


----------



## oldlady25715

It's great news for sure! Amazing, given the gravity of the situation a few months ago. Hallelujah.

I don't think that business wise Tesoros can vend to very many different importers can they? What would y'all like them to do exactly?


----------



## oophagraal

Yes they finally got the licences for histrionica, lehmanni and also for phyllobates bicolor. That's great news for them!


----------



## EricM

Great news for the hobby.

The bottom line is that these frogs make it into the US hobby and are around for years to come. 

And a second to the above statement is that they go to people who not only breed them, but SELL them.

Hopefully many shipments will make it into the country and the frogs trickle down to whomever wants to work with them, but events could trigger a change in the government and the whole thing could come to a stand still or an abrupt end.

If Robert and Shawn want to buy the first shipment(s) that is fine, they may be funky characters; but they both produce a lot of nice looking animals, and they actually sell them to other people.

I'm just thrilled they are coming.
Eric


----------



## pdfCrazy

I'am personally thrilled with this news. I agree it would be unfortunate AND unfair if just a few individuals purchased all the large obligates coming in, cherry pick the nice ones and pass on the rest. I think an idea that may prevent that, is a maximum of 4 frogs (of each species) per person be allowed pre shipment. I am curius the quauntity of these large obligates that Tesoros has been able to stockpile while trying to get permits approved. Although these will be very sought after, I hope pricing will be realistic, (taking into consideration their rarity, CB status, etc). I have no expectation these will be priced anywhere even close to farm raised or CB pumilio, but hopefully much less than the 1500-2500 I have seen in the last few years for some select morphs of histo.


----------



## markpulawski

I think the last line of their statement is what we should be applauding, in situ conservation....I pray they are serious and I pray that it works.


----------



## Holdway

GREAT!!!!
Just what I needed. More frogs to lust after!!!


----------



## rigel10

hypostatic said:


> Yeah, I probably won't be seeing these frogs for a few years due to the price haha.
> 
> But yeah, they should limit the frogs so that not just one person gets all of them...
> 
> Anyone know if the frogs are gonna be microchipped or anything?


Apart from the money and the difficulty to get me frogs here, I would not take them because I know I can not give them a proper viv in size.
But I'm glad that they can legally keep. I hope that there will be no economic speculations about them.


----------



## Dane

EricM said:


> If Robert and Shawn want to buy the first shipment(s) that is fine, they may be funky characters; but they both produce a lot of nice looking animals, and they actually sell them to other people.
> 
> I'm just thrilled they are coming.
> Eric


Given how much work Jeremy has done for distributing the frogs that Tesoros has already brought in, I really hope that he is able to receive a portion of the obligates to resell as well (should he so desire), not just Robert & Shawn.


----------



## Aldross

I know that histrionica and lehmanni are the new big thing and everyone has been waiting on but I want to get my hands on some of those Bi-colors. The coloring on their legs is just amazing compared to what I have seen in the current stock.


----------



## MasterOogway

Aldross said:


> I know that histrionica and lehmanni are the new big thing and everyone has been waiting on but I want to get my hands on some of those Bi-colors. The coloring on their legs is just amazing compared to what I have seen in the current stock.


Agreed, the pictures I've seen of the bi-colors are phenomenal. Plus, they'll probably be more reasonably priced for us normal people  I'm just happy this whole thing seems to be finally working for them though, it's been a long time coming.


----------



## Azurel

pdfCrazy said:


> I'am personally thrilled with this news. I agree it would be unfortunate AND unfair if just a few individuals purchased all the large obligates coming in, cherry pick the nice ones and pass on the rest. I think an idea that may prevent that, is a maximum of 4 frogs (of each species) per person be allowed pre shipment. I am curius the quauntity of these large obligates that Tesoros has been able to stockpile while trying to get permits approved. Although these will be very sought after, I hope pricing will be realistic, (taking into consideration their rarity, CB status, etc). I have no expectation these will be priced anywhere even close to farm raised or CB pumilio, but hopefully much less than the 1500-2500 I have seen in the last few years for some select morphs of histo.


Rumor has it 5500 per pair.....we all won't know till it happens.


----------



## pdfCrazy

Azurel said:


> Rumor has it 5500 per pair.....we all won't know till it happens.


I sure hope that figure is WAYYYYYY inaccurate. The reality is, there are probably less than 8-10 people in the entire country that could/would spend that kind of money on a single pair of frogs. I understand there are significant costs associated with what they are doing, but that kind of price just reeks of pure greed to me. Especially since thousands of dollars have already been donated to this private venture. Saying that may be a bit pre-mature (and unpopular) since to my knowledge, no prices have been announced. But I've never been one to shy away from speaking my mind.


----------



## carola1155

Aldross said:


> I know that histrionica and lehmanni are the new big thing and everyone has been waiting on but I want to get my hands on some of those Bi-colors. The coloring on their legs is just amazing compared to what I have seen in the current stock.


I've had this photo as my phone background ever since these photos were posted and I saw this bicolor... 








I am definitely going to be picking some up.



TarantulaGuy said:


> Agreed, the pictures I've seen of the bi-colors are phenomenal. Plus, they'll probably be more reasonably priced for us normal people  I'm just happy this whole thing seems to be finally working for them though, it's been a long time coming.


The pictures are definitely great... word from Ivan is that they all have greenish blue legs. I think they are going to be pretty awesome. Best part is that they will definitely be more affordable. Word "on the street" is that Jeremy is trying to put an order together. If anyone else wants them, I would suggest getting in touch with him sooner rather than later.
JL-Exotics- DB profile
JL-Exotics - Website


----------



## Holdway

That's by far the prettiest bi-color that I've ever seen.


----------



## brendan0923

Yeah those bicolors are dope

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## JMims

That's great news. I hope that the bicolors do not get overshadowed by the Oophaga, though both are beautiful frogs. I also hope that the Oophaga won't be so expensive (or in so little numbers) that they are only available to a select few, since many of us have donated and supported Tesoros for a quite a long time. Not to mean I think they should be unreasonably cheap either.

Are these permits just for 2015? Hopefully they will be renewed for 2016 and years to come if they are only for this year...


----------



## sports_doc

Dane said:


> Given how much work Jeremy has done for distributing the frogs that Tesoros has already brought in, I really hope that he is able to receive a portion of the obligates to resell as well (should he so desire), not just Robert & Shawn.


???

Dane, you are free to communicate with me anytime, but I dont know WTH you are referring to here. I haven't ordered anything yet, have you? I know as much about this great new news as everyone else. I hate rumors guys. Lets not do that please. 

Take care

S


----------



## sports_doc

EricM said:


> Great news for the hobby.
> 
> The bottom line is that these frogs make it into the US hobby and are around for years to come.
> 
> And a second to the above statement is that they go to people who not only breed them, but SELL them.
> 
> Hopefully many shipments will make it into the country and the frogs trickle down to whomever wants to work with them, but events could trigger a change in the government and the whole thing could come to a stand still or an abrupt end.
> 
> If Robert and Shawn want to buy the first shipment(s) that is fine, they may be funky characters; but they both produce a lot of nice looking animals, and they actually sell them to other people.
> 
> I'm just thrilled they are coming.
> Eric


Eric, Funky? 
you must mean Robert!!  

I think the ball is in Tesoros' court of course, and they should do whatever works best for their business model so that it has some longevity to it. 

The hobby has gotten a lot more sophisticated with the finicky obligates and now there is success stories for CB animals all over America supplying a lot of the demand. Its great to see and I am sure in no time there will be reports of F1, F2 animals from this new stock.

Thankfully the old days of hidden collections and secret trades are not the norm and we can buy/sell great animals throughout the hobby.

Can't wait to see this stuff! Gonna be epic.

S


----------



## Coqui

I surely hope that after all the effort getting information out to the people, fundraising, donations, etc. from members on this forum and other forums not to mention all the years, money, and effort that the guys from Tesoros contributed to make this happen gets tarnish at the last phase distribution. 
Some work harder then others and some donated more but at the end everyone's contributions were welcome. 
I agree with Shawn, let's not start rumors but let's be diligent and keep inform when these gorgeous frogs go on sale.


----------



## Dane

sports_doc said:


> ???
> 
> Dane, you are free to communicate with me anytime, but I dont know WTH you are referring to here. I haven't ordered anything yet, have you? I know as much about this great new news as everyone else. I hate rumors guys. Lets not do that please.
> 
> Take care
> 
> S


Shawn, in my original post I didn't name anyone directly, I merely stated an opinion regarding what COULD happen if a motivated individual with the means and connections wanted to monopolize these frogs (not that Tesoros would necessarily allow that). EricM inferred the names.
Have I ordered my lehmanni yet? Um..no. Even though the price hasn't been firmly established, I'm sure they will be way beyond my reach.
Obviously the rumor mill regarding these frogs has been churning for a long time, but you are correct, there is no use speculating until we have more concrete info about the import.


----------



## whitethumb

its been a long time waiting. glad to finally see they got the permits. ivan thanks for all your hard work, none of this would be possible without dedication and perseverance.


----------



## Coqui

I just got some information from a reputable vendor, that stated the first shipment of Lehmanni are all spoken for. Rumor or Fact. My question is when does a rumor become a fact. Is it when the first shipment comes in and as soon as we find out about them, they are all sold out and I am giving an opportunity to be placed on a waiting list. The truth is, that we will never know the truth. As I stated in a previous post, some gave more then others and some worked harder then others. However at the end all contributions were accepted. I think it should be based on a first come basis. In case anyone is wondering if I want to get at least two Lehmanni, damn right I do. Do I have enough money maybe, maybe not, not sure about the price, have an idea. Even if I can afford them, I might not go for it and just hold on to my funds for a rainy day, but at least I and others should have an equal opportunity to aquire them.


----------



## Azurel

Coqui said:


> I just got some information from a reputable vendor, that stated the first shipment of Lehmanni are all spoken for. Rumor or Fact. My question is when does a rumor become a fact. Is it when the first shipment comes in and as soon as we find out about them, they are all sold out and I am giving an opportunity to be placed on a waiting list. The truth is, that we will never know the truth. As I stated in a previous post, some gave more then others and some worked harder then others. However at the end all contributions were accepted. I think it should be based on a first come basis. In case anyone is wondering if I want to get at least two Lehmanni, damn right I do. Do I have enough money maybe, maybe not, not sure about the price, have an idea. Even if I can afford them, I might not go for it and just hold on to my funds for a rainy day, but at least I and others should have an equal opportunity to aquire them.


If as the rumor states that the first pairings are already spoken for, and they just announced that they got permits then the process wasn't open and upfront or equal to all.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Let's assume that is a fact. Do you really not think that there were priority lists long before the announcement was made? So you can't be the first to get in on the holy grail frogs, big deal. Everyone who worked or contributed in some way said they were doing it to help out a worthy cause, and not so they could get pretty frogs. The hope here is that Ivan and company will be able to continue producing these animals for years to come, and eventually everyone will have the opportunity to work with them. I know I can wait years, I mean, I'm interested in the frogs more than the money or status.


----------



## MasterOogway

epiphytes etc. said:


> Let's assume that is a fact. Do you really not think that there were priority lists long before the announcement was made? So you can't be the first to get in on the holy grail frogs, big deal. Everyone who worked or contributed in some way said they were doing it to help out a worthy cause, and not so they could get pretty frogs. The hope here is that Ivan and company will be able to continue producing these animals for years to come, and eventually everyone will have the opportunity to work with them. I know I can wait years, I mean, I'm interested in the frogs more than the money or status.


Exactly this.


----------



## Azurel

epiphytes etc. said:


> Let's assume that is a fact. Do you really not think that there were priority lists long before the announcement was made? So you can't be the first to get in on the holy grail frogs, big deal. Everyone who worked or contributed in some way said they were doing it to help out a worthy cause, and not so they could get pretty frogs. The hope here is that Ivan and company will be able to continue producing these animals for years to come, and eventually everyone will have the opportunity to work with them. I know I can wait years, I mean, I'm interested in the frogs more than the money or status.


That's a big pile of BS.....Everyone that donated were donating to eventually aquire Lehmanni....They can say it was for a worthy cause all they want. But in the end it was for the ability to aquire and open a new line of frogs that haven't been legally available before or atleast in a long long time.

I personally don't care either way I didn't and don't plan to aquire Lehmanni, but I can see where some might disenchanted to find out they had the cash in hand, donated, work to help make it happen only to find out the first pairings were already selected and spoken for before they were ever actually available.....

Then again it might be all BS....So the best option is to wait, see, and contact for the availability.

Either way in the end the most important thing is the potential for conservation that will be possible through the hard work Tesoros has put in....that goes beyond frogs in glass boxes.


----------



## phender

Just throwing this out there. Haven't all or most the Tesoro frogs been sold through distributers here in the US, like J-L Exotics and Understory. Is it possible that all the frogs are going to distributers, and the distributers have had people on waiting lists for when they got their permits.

Just a thought.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Azurel said:


> I personally don't care either way I didn't and don't plan to aquire Lehmanni, but I can see where some might disenchanted to find out they had the cash in hand, donated, work to help make it happen only to find out the first pairings were already selected and spoken for before they were ever actually available.....


This is my point. In theory there will be many more animals offered for sale. Why is it so important to be first? Some kind of frog glory? Personally, i think that those who've had success with large obligates should be the first to work with them, not just anyone with the bankroll. 

And, like you said, this may all be bs. Maybe they haven't all been spoken for. Maybe Phil's right and distributors are the ones who bought them all.


----------



## dmartin72

...and how would you determine that?!



epiphytes etc. said:


> This is my point. In theory there will be many more animals offered for sale. Why is it so important to be first? Some kind of frog glory? Personally, i think that those who've had success with large obligates should be the first to work with them, not just anyone with the bankroll.
> 
> And, like you said, this may all be bs. Maybe they haven't all been spoken for. Maybe Phil's right and distributors are the ones who bought them all.


----------



## Azurel

epiphytes etc. said:


> This is my point. In theory there will be many more animals offered for sale. Why is it so important to be first? Some kind of frog glory? Personally, i think that those who've had success with large obligates should be the first to work with them, not just anyone with the bankroll.
> 
> And, like you said, this may all be bs. Maybe they haven't all been spoken for. Maybe Phil's right and distributors are the ones who bought them all.


I agree totally with that. Those with history of solid obligate care large and small should go before someone with a large bank roll....Bank roll don't equal experience, and in all reality they should go that direction first, that's the safest bet to get and keep them in the hobby....

Phil could be exactly correct as well...


----------



## dmartin72

Is there a committee that sits high in the sky and anoints the worthy?


----------



## epiphytes etc.

As of this point, no committee has been appointed, however we have assembled a committee to decide whether or not to form a such a committee.


----------



## kblack3

I don't see why everybody is tripping out. Seems like people have their panties in a bunch over assumptions, and you know what they say about people that assume. This is a great milestone for the hobby, so celebrate. Don't spoil it with useless childish bickering. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oldlady25715

They're probably sending to Europe too--what are they hearing? Personally though, i dontaed but can wait. 

If the FOs are 5000 the F3s will be like half that amount.


----------



## R1ch13

oldlady25715 said:


> They're probably sending to Europe too--what are they hearing? Personally though, i dontaed but can wait.
> 
> If the FOs are 5000 the F3s will be like half that amount.


That you guys are getting the first imports and Europe will see some next year...

Regards,
Richie


----------



## rigel10

If I'm not mistaken, Dutch Rana sold some frogs (Phyllobates) from Tesoros last year.


----------



## Dendrobait

I will likely never be able to afford these guysbut I am happy. This is a win for theforests, colombia, and a sustainable business that paints the hobby in good light. We should all be happy instead of squabbling over frogs.


----------



## R1ch13

My friend has some terribilis from Tesoros here in the UK, yes. It was either Dendroworld.fr or Rana he purchased them from.

So far Europe has seen the same as the US - Phyllobates terribilis and aurotaenia, Dendrobates auratus and truncatus.

I am interested to see which morphs are up for grabs first and even more so to see the hobby's reaction to such an opportunity. Here in the UK at least, the amount of "questionable" large Obligates is on the rise every year. I can't speak for the US but it seems the same?

I wonder how many people already keeping Redheads will offer up a viv for some genuinely, no doubts legal ones? How about the Bullseyes?

I have been enamored by Redheads for a couple of years now after having the pleasure of witnessing them in a good friends collection on multiple occasions. 100% CB animals have been and are available here in the UK: and were talking the likes of f3, f4 generations.

I have held off though, yes lack of finances has helped my decisions but that being said, I have had the chance more than once over the past few years. I have decided and made clear online it is my intention and hobby goal moving forward only to support 100% legal and worthy breeding efforts such as UE, Tesoros, WIKIRI and CRARC.

So going by the format suggested on this thread re the distribution of these animals. Because I haven't allowed myself to take on questionable animals to "wet my feet" in the keeping of larger Oophaga; I should be ruled out of attaining some of the first animals?

If your success and status within the large Oophaga breeding ranks is going to become a defining factor in you getting some of these animals; it seems to me that the people who are "worthy" of obtaining these animals first are the same people who undermine Tesoros work by purchasing, breeding and selling questionable and/or smuggled frogs/their offspring...

Just musing, as I haven't actually given this whole thing a real thought at present. I am just wholeheartedly over the moon for all at Tesoros and am happy to see them getting somewhere!

Regards,
Richie


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Azurel said:


> Everyone that donated were donating to eventually aquire Lehmanni....They can say it was for a worthy cause all they want. .


You are wrong sir.

I busted my ass doing everything I could to help with no intention on getting these frogs.
These frogs are way out of my league, I wouldn`t even attempt it nor could I afford it


----------



## Dendro Dave

Enlightened Rogue said:


> You are wrong sir.
> 
> I busted my ass doing everything I could to help with no intention on getting these frogs.
> These frogs are way out of my league, I wouldn`t even attempt it nor could I afford it


Ditto...
Many did much more then I, but my modest effort and small donations were given while not expecting these frogs to be within my reach for years... if ever at all.

Now do I hope someday they will be? ...Yes
Do I hope this project is a success that can be a model for others, that may eventually result in having access to animals I want? ...Yes.
Do i hope this project benefits the people and animals of Columbia? ...Yes.
Do I plan on being able to get in on these frogs this year, or next, or next next year? ...No.
Do I still think it was worth donating to even though I may never own these frogs? ...Yes.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

R1ch13 said:


> So going by the format suggested on this thread re the distribution of these animals. Because I haven't allowed myself to take on questionable animals to "wet my feet" in the keeping of larger Oophaga; I should be ruled out of attaining some of the first animals?


If it were me sending these animals out, I'd want them to go to those who likely have a higher chance of success with them. Is it possible that someone with no experience working with large obligates will have really great success with them? Absolutely. Is it much more likely someone who has produce multiple generations of histos will have success? I think so. 

I'm not trying to say that some frog god should only let those with experience get them; I'm only saying that maybe those of us (though I personally have no plans to acquire them) who don't have the experience just step back and let them get a little more established. 



R1ch13 said:


> If your success and status within the large Oophaga breeding ranks is going to become a defining factor in you getting some of these animals; it seems to me that the people who are "worthy" of obtaining these animals first are the same people who undermine Tesoros work by purchasing, breeding and selling questionable and/or smuggled frogs/their offspring...


 Like I said above, I'm not saying there should be a defining factor at all in deciding who gets them. I'm just saying if you don't have any experience at all, maybe don't get all black friday over the very first import. And I don't see how you can say that those working with histos currently are undermining the work of Tesoros. The few morphs in the hobby (over here, anyway) have been around for a while. It's those people exactly who worked so hard to figure out just how to have success with large obligates long before there were any Wikiri sylvatica imports. Do you think these older lines should just be abandoned now that there are more sound alternitives? I don't. I feel that these frogs represent a snapshot of the hobby and should continue to be propagated. I mean, they're just now becoming established enough that we are seeing open advertisements for them in the classifieds. I have no direct stake in this as a hobbyist, I have no interest in Oophaga, big or small; but I do like seeing as many lines being maintained, of all species, as possible, and I also like that Tesoros seems to be doing quite well, and we do need to support them as much as possible. I'm sorry this post is rambling, and might not make sense, I'm just sleepy.


----------



## srrrio

Enlightened Rogue said:


> You are wrong sir.
> 
> I busted my ass doing everything I could to help with no intention on getting these frogs.
> These frogs are way out of my league, I wouldn`t even attempt it nor could I afford it


ANY frog would be lucky to have you as a caretaker.. can't help you out with the cash though


----------



## R1ch13

epiphytes etc. said:


> And I don't see how you can say that those working with histos currently are undermining the work of Tesoros. The few morphs in the hobby (over here, anyway) have been around for a while. It's those people exactly who worked so hard to figure out just how to have success with large obligates long before there were any Wikiri sylvatica imports. Do you think these older lines should just be abandoned now that there are more sound alternitives?


No I don't think they should be given up, like you say they do represent a "snapshot" of our hobby and it would be counterintuitive to let them get lost to the new animals. Its the same case with the Ranitomeya (my passion) there were plenty of stunning non UE animals around prior to UE's release - I have some myself. But like I said going forward I want to support those like UE, Tesoros etc this is how our hobby will move forward for the better.

Making the comparison, will I add the UE equivalents of my "Euro" line Flavs and Chazuta to my collection in support of UE's work - sure! That is a true and honest intention of mine. But from little tidbids I have seen around this doesn't seem to be the case for most keeping larger Oophaga already.

Many have Redheads here in the UK already, they really are VERY common now. I know some animals are straight up illegal while others have a "greyish" element to them. But here at least, it isn't like the US where people are still keeping "Old line" animals. Do I think many of the people currently working with questionable Redheads will offer up a viv space for some legal Tesoros Redheads - no not many. So yes I do believe it is in a way undermining Tesoros work. 

I am happy to reserve judgement until I see what happens. But if people already keeping multiple larger Oophaga species step up and purchase the Tesoros equivalents then respect! But whether this happens or not remains to be seen....

Regards,
Richie


----------



## oophagraal

Please stop launching rumors about prices and distribution. Nothing has been said or published for the moment. Just wait a little more and you'll get the right informations soon.
The distribution for lehmanni and histrionica will be different than the other species (auratus, phyllobates and truncatus), but as I said, you'll know it very soon.


----------



## stu&shaz

Richie ya can't have em they are all for me ha ha some hope,buddy. sorry mate you don't need my thoughts on this one. Just in case anyone gets confused here Richie is a very close mate of mine and shares my joy completely at this monumental achievement,I don't think for a moment I'll be able to keep for some time,it matters not,what is important is that we all tried to do little bits to help and it looks like we all won

Guys I have to say a bit of sadness here: some of the early posts sort of don't fit with the excitement we all should be sharing at this amazing achievement,sure I know many folks want to keep I do to but this is a huge milestone for our hobby and the wild frogs,get the ruddy beers out and start celebrating !! 

You guys have organised petitions, run campaigns, auctions etc for a common goal for all of us and sustainable frogs and it looks like we collectively might have finally won,don't worry on who will be first to keep celebrate what the hobby tried to do for good reasons. We all as a collective won here not some rich individual. I'm gonna bung a thanks at you all for being so damn inspirational for me personally,no names just cheers you mad yanks.

We the hobby are slowly garnering the expertise to make the most of these new imports,Colombia has many frogs plausibly frogs we don't even know about,something for everyone not just the large oophaga ,again more cause for celebration tip of the iceberg stuff,I just hope Ivan's business flies now and no more jumping through governmental hoops Frankly, can't wait to see what else he can do.

Happy faces here guys no place for self this one really is so special for all of us,tis the way forward strong healthy legit animals brought to us in a sustainable way.

To all those in the american hobby that helped: thank you so much I admire all of you
get the ruddy glasses out the toast is Ivan Lozano Ortega a guy that wouldn't give up,what a story I'm so happy for him and for all of us
cheers

Stu


----------



## Coqui

Stu, I totally agree with you when you say cheers to all. So many people join forces and contributed in so many different ways, Large and small for such a worthy cause. I must say, it is rewarding to see a community such as Dendro Board members and other forum members come up with creative ways and fight for this monumental event. I do believe we had the easy part of this journey and no one would trade to be in Ivan's shoes with the battles he has fought. At the end I do tip my hat to all parties involved.


----------



## kblack3

stu&shaz said:


> Richie ya can't have em they are all for me ha ha some hope,buddy. sorry mate you don't need my thoughts on this one. Just in case anyone gets confused here Richie is a very close mate of mine and shares my joy completely at this monumental achievement,I don't think for a moment I'll be able to keep for some time,it matters not,what is important is that we all tried to do little bits to help and it looks like we all won
> 
> 
> 
> Guys I have to say a bit of sadness here: some of the early posts sort of don't fit with the excitement we all should be sharing at this amazing achievement,sure I know many folks want to keep I do to but this is a huge milestone for our hobby and the wild frogs,get the ruddy beers out and start celebrating !!
> 
> 
> 
> You guys have organised petitions, run campaigns, auctions etc for a common goal for all of us and sustainable frogs and it looks like we collectively might have finally won,don't worry on who will be first to keep celebrate what the hobby tried to do for good reasons. We all as a collective won here not some rich individual. I'm gonna bung a thanks at you all for being so damn inspirational for me personally,no names just cheers you mad yanks.
> 
> 
> 
> We the hobby are slowly garnering the expertise to make the most of these new imports,Colombia has many frogs plausibly frogs we don't even know about,something for everyone not just the large oophaga ,again more cause for celebration tip of the iceberg stuff,I just hope Ivan's business flies now and no more jumping through governmental hoops Frankly, can't wait to see what else he can do.
> 
> 
> 
> Happy faces here guys no place for self this one really is so special for all of us,tis the way forward strong healthy legit animals brought to us in a sustainable way.
> 
> 
> 
> To all those in the american hobby that helped: thank you so much I admire all of you
> 
> get the ruddy glasses out the toast is Ivan Lozano Ortega a guy that wouldn't give up,what a story I'm so happy for him and for all of us
> 
> cheers
> 
> 
> 
> Stu



Much more eloquent than my attempt lol nicely stated. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sherman

stu&shaz said:


> Get the ruddy glasses out. The toast is Ivan Lozano Ortega, a guy that wouldn't give up. What a story, I'm so happy for him and for all of us.
> Cheers!
> 
> Stu


Stu,

Your comment motivated me to dust off a pint glass from the back of my shelf. Thank you. 
Your post prompted me to add punctuation to your quote above. Now those of us who speak English can understand it. You're welcome. 

Here's to Ivan and the others that have worked so hard to accomplish this. May the world recognize the value of this project beyond dollars.

Cheers, mate!


----------



## stu&shaz

See there ya go yanks at their best,one lovely soul calls me eloquent,bless you kiddo. 

A certain mate who knows I can't cope with this damn language of mine on any level ,steps in, and bales out his friend. Chris you are a ruddy star!! 

Ha, the passion comes over Chris but i'll be honest I don't really think anyone here has ever understood me,it will never change. No illusions,bloody funny though 

Still got my special glass thank YOU good sir !!

Ahh, I'm so happy for him bro,he's worked so hard !!

Cheers Chris and thanks a bunch

best always both

Stu


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Sherman said:


> Stu,
> 
> Your comment motivated me to dust off a pint glass from the back of my shelf. Thank you.
> Your post prompted me to add punctuation to your quote above. Now those of us who speak English can understand it. You're welcome.
> 
> Here's to Ivan and the others that have worked so hard to accomplish this. May the world recognize the value of this project beyond dollars.
> 
> Cheers, mate!


I did the same, with multiple refills of a nice local summer whit from a local "TRUE" microbrewery down here in NM called the Spotted Dog.


----------



## Meefloaf

Azurel said:


> That's a big pile of BS.....Everyone that donated were donating to eventually aquire Lehmanni....


I did it all for the t-shirt and pint glass


----------



## Dane

Meefloaf said:


> I did it all for the t-shirt and pint glass


Hahaha. Funny you mentioned that. I've never been happier to pay $50 a piece for a shirt and a glass.


----------



## MasterOogway

From the FB Page:

"We are happy to report that after nine years of effort, the first shipment of O. histrionica and O. lehmanni has arrived safely in the United States!
We would like to thank the many supporters that have helped us along the way. Your support has greatly boosted our spirits. This historic shipment was made possible by a few faithful individuals that stepped forward when we needed it most. These individuals risked a substantial sum of money with no guarantee that the permits would come through. It is for that reason that we gave these people the first opportunity to purchase our animals.
Money was not the only factor in this decision. We are secure in knowing that these animals will be in the hands of qualified individuals with the means and experience to breed them. After all, we are hoping to eliminate the market for smuggled animals by making captive bred babies available to anyone that might want one.
As you know, Oophaga are very slow to breed. We are currently working to increase our production so that we may begin to meet the demand. Right now though, we must still ask for your patience. Some the animals that arrived are breeding pairs, so it is not unreasonable to see US captive bred offspring very soon.
As a result of his success breeding Oophaga, and judicious dealings in the high end gecko world, we are pleased to have Alberto Cadolini as a team member. He will be handling the ground work of future Oophaga importations. All inquiries on the matter may be directed to him at [email protected].
Again, we would like to thank our many supporters that have helped us along the way. This has been a tremendously long road, with more bumps than we ever imagined, but we have done it. Our efforts have helped start a national conservation management plan for O. lehmanni and Phylobates terribilis in Colombia and have begun to supply legal, ethical, and sustainable Oophaga."


----------



## pdfCrazy

Yepp, Looks like your source was right on the money. 



Coqui said:


> I just got some information from a reputable vendor, that stated the first shipment of Lehmanni are all spoken for. Rumor or Fact. My question is when does a rumor become a fact. Is it when the first shipment comes in and as soon as we find out about them, they are all sold out and I am giving an opportunity to be placed on a waiting list. The truth is, that we will never know the truth. As I stated in a previous post, some gave more then others and some worked harder then others. However at the end all contributions were accepted. I think it should be based on a first come basis. In case anyone is wondering if I want to get at least two Lehmanni, damn right I do. Do I have enough money maybe, maybe not, not sure about the price, have an idea. Even if I can afford them, I might not go for it and just hold on to my funds for a rainy day, but at least I and others should have an equal opportunity to aquire them.


----------



## Dislexei

Just saw the message on FB came on to talk about it and see there is a full thread and people beat me to the update.


----------



## Dendro Dave

I donated without knowing if they'd get the permits, and I was NOT offered a chance to get in on the first ones, but my guess is the people who did donated a hell of l lot more.

If that is the case and they are also people who know what they are doing, then.... *I GOT NO PROBLEMS WITH THIS *

And I honestly was seriously considering using a new credit card to do something stupid 

You guys that get em... you know where to find me 

I suggest everyone else wish them luck and continue to support Tesoros so that some day we all get our shot. Plus it is just nice having all those species/morphs to talk about and drool over 

My 2.69 cents (adjusted for inflation),
DD


----------



## tongo

The first import hit nyc on Tuesday!


----------



## Coqui

PDFCrazy, yes my source was correct. Did it bother me that some people were chosen while others were passed by, yes. I think it should have been made public from the get go that the first shipment were going to a few breeders that have experience, I would have continue to donate money and time to this project as I am sure others would have done the same. However, time has passed and what was done cannot be changed. Personally, I have no animosity towards the people that got first dibs. Maybe a little jealousy, Lol. I really wish all the people who got them the best of luck and success. I hope we as a community continue to support Ivan, there are still many hurdles to get through. 
PS. First dibs on offsprings.


----------



## pa.walt

i know it will be a LONG time but can't wait till they come down in price..... lets say 250 each.


----------



## dmartin72

How much did they go for and is that the price for future imports?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Why is the price so important?

Let's take some time to celebrate.

I don't think people are really appreciating the significance of this accomplishment. We all came together to help make this happen, with few exceptions. And to those exceptions we can extend a hearty middle finger. 

Those with the frogs, enjoy them and share them with us please. Pretend you just won the lottery though, because you know you're going to be slammed with requests for waiting lists, etc.


----------



## Dendro Dave

dmartin72 said:


> How much did they go for and is that the price for future imports?





ZookeeperDoug said:


> Why is the price so important?
> 
> Let's take some time to celebrate.
> 
> I don't think people are really appreciating the significance of this accomplishment. We all came together to help make this happen, with few exceptions. And to those exceptions we can extend a hearty middle finger.
> 
> Those with the frogs, enjoy them and share them with us please. Pretend you just won the lottery though, because you know you're going to be slammed with requests for waiting lists, etc.


Yes please share pics/info, and don't hide in the shadows for to long. We need to know! 

I must admit though: like Dmartin, I'm a bit curious myself. I'd like to at least know a ball park figure. Although, it is entirely possible that after this first success, and any breeding success from those frogs... The next batch may be a bit more affordable for the masses. Which would be pretty cool if they get to do a larger import. 

Bring on the andinobates!!!...
Andinobates virolinensis








Andinobates cassidyhorna








And more....
https://www.google.com/search?q=and...CoQsARqFQoTCKr2h6b_28cCFYuLkgod754BLA#imgrc=_

I wonder if they've even started working with these? ...would love to know that, and also what thumbnails might come out of Columbia through Tesoros?


----------



## markpulawski

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Why is the price so important?
> 
> Let's take some time to celebrate.
> 
> I don't think people are really appreciating the significance of this accomplishment. We all came together to help make this happen, with few exceptions. And to those exceptions we can extend a hearty middle finger.
> 
> Those with the frogs, enjoy them and share them with us please. Pretend you just won the lottery though, because you know you're going to be slammed with requests for waiting lists, etc.


I will tell you why Doug...because most of us that donated deserve to know the details. I donated $675 with no expectation of getting anything back however because I am not a member of some top secret face book group I don't have the right to know the details? This is a great project however without transparency all you have is a bunch of "insiders" and the rest of us speculating, why not difuse that and let the truth be known, what's that going to hurt? I was told by a friend that got some of these that he was not allowed to tell me the price...seriously? Why all this secrecy , the frogs are here what's the big deal? 
With 2 kids in college I can't afford any anyway but I feel that all of us that supported this project have a right to know. I have no problem with not being one that got these frogs (especially since I could not afford them) but come on this isn't top secret nuclear technology, it's the price of a frog


----------



## Sherman

I just got home. 

Enjoy this (my photo, not my animal) while I type:


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

markpulawski said:


> I will tell you why Doug...because most of us that donated deserve to know the details. I donated $675 with no expectation of getting anything back however because I am not a member of some top secret face book group I don't have the right to know the details? This is a great project however without transparency all you have is a bunch of "insiders" and the rest of us speculating, why not difuse that and let the truth be known, what's that going to hurt? I was told by a friend that got some of these that he was not allowed to tell me the price...seriously? Why all this secrecy , the frogs are here what's the big deal?
> With 2 kids in college I can't afford any anyway but I feel that all of us that supported this project have a right to know. I have no problem with not being one that got these frogs (especially since I could not afford them) but come on this isn't top secret nuclear technology, it's the price of a frog


Mark, chillax a second.

I'm not saying any of this, that you don't have the right to know, that they shouldn't be transparent, etc. I just don't understand why it seems to be the first thing everyone wants to know? Why is the price of the animals so important?

Can't we just take a second to enjoy what we've accomplished as a community.

Part of me suspects, it is a bit embarrassing for some, just how much they spent. Maybe really it isn't any of our business? All I know is that the price of the frogs wasn't the first thing I thought of. I'd like to know, yes, and eventually we will know.

The most important thing right now is what we all accomplished, let's enjoy it.


----------



## pa.walt

well the price is still going to a bit too high for a lot of us when they do have frogs to sell. 
figure at the cheapest would be 1000 each since some histos are going for 700.


----------



## Sherman

In no particular order, due to the fact that I am super tired, and the past three days have been a blur of awesome.

As for pricing, I do not know. I could not afford the obligates so I never asked. To respect the privacy of the parties involved, mostly the buyers, I will not even give guesstimates. I can say that 100% of the purchase price went to Tesoros de Colombia. There was no middle man.

A group of buyers, months ago, unsolicited by Tesoros de Colombia and of their own accord gave a substantial "deposit" on the obligates with zero guarantee that the permits would come in. That meant that if the permits were never issues they were straight out of luck. No frogs, no refund. Period. You lose, game over.

For perspective, the term "substantial" can be described as significantly larger than the entire amount that we raised from the Indiegogo campaign. This was a serious limb that these individuals waltzed out on.

This deposit is what made the Oophaga permit possible. Without this influx of money, at that particular time, the permits would not have happened. That is just how it is. These people stopped this whole crazy project from grinding to a seriously depressing halt.

It was only fair that the people that risked so much get the chance to reap the rewards. This was by no means the only qualification that landed these frogs in NYC. Like the post says, the frogs are in the hands of a group of people that have shown the means and ability to produce these animals and work together to share information and have each others backs.

After seeing them all, many of which were adult breeders (some calling from the cups, quack, quack) I would not be surprised if we get to see photos of eggs soon. The animals were divided up into pairs whenever possible to make sure that breeding can happen soon. We want these to breed like crazy so that everyone that wants one can have access as soon as possible. That is the sincere goal with this project; reduce demand for wild caught animals by supplying an alternative. Coming soon (I hope): $250 lehmanni for everyone!

There are some more frogs going to California soon very soon. I do not know the details of that shipment.

Alberto Cadolini.
Alberto is one of the best oophaga breeders that I have ever met. He seems to have the ability to "read" what frogs are saying and adapts his setups to suit their needs. (Only person I know with a chiller for a dart frog tank) He also has experience dealing with high end geckos and seems to have a grip on the equitable dispersion of these animals. I know that there are other very qualified people, but Alberto has stepped up in a big way to make this happen. He has been down to Colombia to meet with the staff members and get to know the operations. He was a major contributor to the funds that pushed this to fruition. He organized this import and will organize future importations as a member of the Tesoros team. Due to his understanding of the efforts put forth by the others that have made this happen and the many hundreds of thousands of dollars spent getting here, he will be doing this "pro bono". All of the money for these frogs will go directly to Tesoros de Colombia.

Inquiries about frogs can be directed to him at [email protected]

I have spent the past few days with Ivan. I think he had his first good night sleep in 9 years the other night. It is good to see him smile. This has been a very long time coming for him. I sincerely hope that this is a turning point for him and the beginning of a different chapter in his life and the life of this project. I hope that this is the turning point that makes our donations a luxury to put toward his other worthy projects and not the necessity that they have been to continue. 

He is currently working on a repatriation project for truncatus. They are hoping to reintroduce them back to an area that previously had them. This is a pilot project that may some day help bring lehmanni back to places in the wild.

This is most definitely a time to celebrate. Ivan is in New Orleans with Yeager right now, and if I know Justin, there is some celebration going on.

Please, ask questions if you have them. But I ask that you refrain from unnecessary speculation. I have attached my name to this project because I believe in the motivation of the people involved. I will be as forthcoming with information as I can be. This was not a business started for profit. Ivan was doing just fine before he started this. Ivan is a conservationist and that is where his heart is.

Lastly, I would like to thank you. Yes, you personally. If you have read through all of this, you care in some way, shape or form about the well being of these critters and none of this would be amount to anything without your support. 
Thank you very much.


----------



## Sherman

It is not my understanding the the price is a required secret. If anyone in the know wants to say that is their prerogative. (Unless I missed something) I feel that it is not my place to say.

For the record: No one asked me if I wanted in on this. Not sure if they all thought I couldn't afford them or am not ready to handle this level of frog.
Either way, they were right! 

Full disclosure: I personally requested that images be suppressed until Tesoros de Colombia was able to make an announcement, but in the end the animals belong to their owners and this was way too huge to contain and I completely get that!! There was some communication issues with a cell phone and we were not able to create Alberto's email address in a timely manner.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Sherman said:


> ....
> He is currently working on a repatriation project for truncatus. They are hoping to reintroduce them back to an area that previously had them. This is a pilot project that may some day help bring lehmanni back to places in the wild.
> 
> This is most definitely a time to celebrate. Ivan is in New Orleans with Yeager right now, and if I know Justin, there is some celebration going on....


Well in that case, sounds like it is a good time to donate some more! 

Edit... 
Sherman, or someone in contact with Ivan or others helping out might wanna let him know asap and I'll try to send them an email... But I'm having trouble logging into any of the Tesoros shops. I was thinking of getting a coffee mug for my coco since fall/winter is approaching, but the shop won't load


----------



## Sherman

I just corrected the email address for anyone that might have just tried to use it. 
So tired.

[email protected]


----------



## Sherman

Dendro Dave said:


> Sherman, or someone in contact with Ivan or others helping out might wanna let him know asap and I'll try to send them an email... But I'm having trouble logging into any of the Tesoros shops. I was thinking of getting a coffee mug for my coco since fall/winter is approaching, but the shop won't load


I contacted our international support team (Christophe Bellec) and was informed that propel shops has shut down.  
On the up side, anyone that bought things from them, your items just became "rare".
He is working on setting up a Cafe Press version right now. Look for it shortly.
Thanks for letting us know.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Sherman said:


> I contacted our international support team (Christophe Bellec) and was informed that propel shops has shut down.
> On the up side, anyone that bought things from them, your items just became "rare".
> He is working on setting up a Cafe Press version right now. Look for it shortly.
> Thanks for letting us know.


Bummer, but glad they will have another shop. I'll just do a small PayPal donation in the.meantime.

Any chance we can get merchandise that has the blue bulls eyes and red Lehmann on it? Not so much a fan of yellow, and.more.choice might = more sales/ project funding 

Or at least features this pic?...









P.S. while I'm here...
In case anyone didn't hear or see that info in Sherman's post. Tesoros will be doing actual conservation beyond just supplying us with legal frogs.. A.good reason to continue supporting them


----------



## Tzunu'un

I totally support what Tesoros is trying to accomplish (and has).

But , I'm also a little confused.



Sherman said:


> A group of buyers, months ago, unsolicited by Tesoros de Colombia and of their own accord gave a substantial "deposit" on the obligates with zero guarantee that the permits would come in. That meant that if the permits were never issues they were straight out of luck. No frogs, no refund. Period. You lose, game over.
> 
> For perspective, the term "substantial" can be described as significantly larger than the entire amount that we raised from the Indiegogo campaign. This was a serious limb that these individuals waltzed out on.


and this is what I think Mark alluded to.....transparency of what was happening / has happened.



markpulawski said:


> I will tell you why Doug...because most of us that donated deserve to know the details. I donated $675 with no expectation of getting anything back



Why didn't that large amount of money (deposit) alternatively get donated to generally support the cause as a whole as many other people did?

Perhaps everyone that donated to the Indiegogo campaign that wanted to get on the wait list should have banded together to make an unsolicited deposit as well.


Again, I totally support what Tesoros is trying to accomplish (and has).
But I think what Mark was bringing up was transparency, etc.

Wasn't the whole purpose to DONATE to Tesoros to make the frogs generally available to the hobby and support their efforts as a whole? or were there two processes as it seems to appear in retrospect.
I think that for everyone that donated also "was a serious limb that these individuals waltzed out on" as the entire thing might not have succeeded. "That meant that if the permits were never issued they were straight out of luck. No frogs, no refund. Period. You lose, game over."

But I have to feel that those who donated gave money to Tesoros for the right reasons...supporting by donating to the cause...with no expectations other than helping to support the effort. 

It would have been good if Tesoros would have refused deposits (and asked that / used the money as a donation) or if they had been transparent that deposits (with no guarantee) were accepted as a form of supporting the initiative. That way at least all those that "donated", might have also been able to also choose to use their "donation" as a "downpayment" credit toward a purchase as that as far as I am aware of was not a publicly known option.



I have no beefs with anyone and I'm not on the list of people that want one of these right now, but it appears as Mark alluded to that there were two processes going on (one publicly visible and one not).

Good outcomes , YES. The money helped / helps the effort.

Transparency , NO. Better communication on donations and acceptance of deposits would have been helpful and would have helped to preemptively diffuse any hurt feelings, negativity, etc once the campaign was successful and frogs shipped .


That's life, and now water under the bridge. 
But it's also a learning lesson / chance to improve future transparency and communication of protocol/process.

Not meant to rain on the parade....thanks to all for supporting Tesoros.


----------



## Dendro Dave

I get where people. are coming from on the transparency thing. I'm a big fan of that 
and have tried to put my money where my mouth is.Sharing ideas, addressing concerns s about some of those ideas, and talking about frogs I lost, and why I lost them. So I get it, and I'll even go so far as to say I agree that not giving the community a heads up on how the first import was going to go down was a mistake. But I don't this is anything that warrants a drama fest like in that other thread we all know about (Which did deserve a drama fest) 

Everyone has a right to say their peace on the issue but let's try to maintain perspective and remember... *THIS IS A WIN*, and IMHO the hobby needs one with the other drama going on.

BUT, (A few points that may not be immediately obvious or considered.

1. 
We all donated with no expectation of getting a frog. Even Mark's extremely generous donations (more.then 10x my own,.btw) If we are.to assume first import prices around what similar frogs go for, that would only be enough to cover the cost of one frog probably. Personally if Mark got a free frog or large discount at a later date because of such a big donatation: I think that would be cool. But unless people donated near the cost of the first import frog, trying to deal with everyone saying "Me too! I donated $10", would be a real hassle for them, and might even cause further drama.

2.
Sounds like these people threw down more like thousands, rather then 100's and probably saved the project, which BTW means that everyone's donations didn't go to waste. If there was no project, that money is gone and with it our shot of anyone getting these, and it would mean that conservation work probably doesn't get done either.

3. 
With similar projects and rare frogs in general many people have expressed a desire to see the animals go to people who are the most qualified/have a better then average shot at success.

Well sounds like in this case that is actually happening. Am I jealous?...yes. Am I glad they seem to have gone to pros? ...Hellz yes! 

4. 
I'd wager these people paid enough to get multiple animals before the animals got here, and that at least some were willing to pony up even more cash once they knew it was finally going to happen.

That cuts down on people ending up with 1or 2 only and hoping mostly in vain to get lucky with a pair, or pair up their lone frog someday. I got 2 of the first black bassleri, and only 2. The ice storm that's wiped out most of my collection got the o e I couldn't find to rescue and Iost the other a couple years later. Both males and now lost to they hobby. Even if I hadn't lost mine their was no guarantee I would have ever got them paired up and breeding. Frankly I wish I wouldn't have been allowed to buy them. I feel like It was a mistake to only buy 2, and that I owe the hobby at least 2 bassleri.

5.
It is worth noting again that these people stepped up big time, and took some initiative. We heard such thingshad been discussed, but that Tesoros wasnt keen on what might happen if things fell through. My guess is it took some desperate circumstances and arm twisting to convince Ivan to go along with it. Maybe they got him drunk 

6. Limited animals means limited numbers go around, thus to get people more then 2 frogs and have the best chance at breeding the people with experience and willing to risk the most got the limited # of first chances available. This isnt all that different from big rewards.given to first/top donators on kick starter and the like. No guarantee that the product gets produced, or the company lasts long enough to full fill demand, or doesn't just take the.money and run in situations like indiegogo where they can keep it even if there is he er a product, and Tesoros was on indiegogo.

Let's recap...

Similar efforts in the past did very few exports, then it ended or shifted focus... Some of the species are still around, some are all but gone. We all now have a better chance at these frogs thanks to these people... Period. 

Because A. The project still exists. B. was at least one batch that went to good breeders, C. Sounds like there will at least be one more batch, but probably more. D. A close core group is more likely to work together and have success with limited animals if things don't go well for this project later, D. How many of us would have dropped thousands before even one import was sure to happen? Well if you were then assuming there were enough frogs then you probably got some, E. Etc...etc.. 

My 2.77 cents (curse this inflation!)


----------



## Dendro Dave

I get where people. are coming from on the transparency thing. I'm a big fan of that a
and have tried to put my money where my mouth is.Sharing ideas, addressing concerns s about some of those ideas, and talking about frogs I lost, and why I lost them. So I get it, and I'll even go so far as to say I agree that not giving the community a heads up on how the first import was going to go down was a mistake.

BUT, (A few points that may not be immediately obvious or considered.

1. 
We all donated with no expectation of getting a frog. Even Mark's extremely generous donations (more.then 10x my own,.btw) If we are.to assume first import prices around what similar frogs go for, that would only be enough to cover the cost of one frog probably. I got nothin but respect for him and personally if Mark got a free frog or large discount at a later date because of such a big donatation: I think that would be cool. But unless people donated near the cost of the first import frog, trying to deal with everyone saying "Me too! I donated $10", would be a real hassle for them, and might even cause further drama.

2.
Sounds like these people threw down more like thousands, rather then 100's and probably saved the project, which BTW means that everyone's donations didn't go to waste. If there was no project, that money is gone and with it our shot of anyone getting these, and it would mean that conservation work probably doesn't get done either.

3. 
With similar projects and rare frogs in general many people have expressed a desire to see the animals go to people who are the most qualified/have a better then average shot at success.

Well sounds like in this case that is actually happening. Am I jealous?...yes. Am I glad they seem to have gone to pros? ...Hellz yes! 

4. 
I'd wager these people paid enough to get multiple animals before the animals got here, and that at least some were willing to pony up even more cash once they knew it was finally going to happen.

That cuts down on people ending up with 1or 2 only and hoping mostly in vain to get lucky with a pair, or pair up their lone frog someday. I got 2 of the first black bassleri, and only 2. The ice storm that's wiped out most of my collection got the o e I couldn't find to rescue and Iost the other a couple years later. Both males and now lost to they hobby. Even if I hadn't lost mine their was no guarantee I would have ever got them paired up and breeding. Frankly I wish I wouldn't have been allowed to buy them. I feel like It was a mistake to only buy 2, and that I owe the hobby at least 2 bassleri.

5.
It is worth noting again that these people stepped up big time, and took some initiative. We heard such thingshad been discussed, but that Tesoros wasnt keen on what might happen if things fell through. My guess is it took some desperate circumstances and arm twisting to convince Ivan to go along with it. Maybe they got him drunk 

6. Limited animals means limited numbers go around, thus to get people more then 2 frogs and have the best chance at breeding the people with experience and willing to risk the most got the limited # of first chances available. This isnt all that different from big rewards.given to first/top donators on kick starter and the like. No guarantee that the product gets produced, or the company lasts long enough to full fill demand, or doesn't just take the.money and run in situations like indiegogo where they can keep it even if there is he er a product, and Tesoros was on indiegogo.

Let's recap...

Similar efforts in the past did very few exports, then it ended. Some of the species are still around, some are all but gone. We all now have a better chance at these frogs thanks to these people... Period. Because A. The project still exists. B. was at least one batch that went to good breeders, C. Sounds like there will at least be one more batch, but probably more. D. A close core group is more likely to work together and have success with limited animals if things don't go well for this project later, D. How many of us would have dropped thousands before even one import was sure to happen? Well if you were then assuming there were enough frogs then you probably got some, E. Etc...etc.. 

My 2.77 cents (curse this inflation!)


----------



## markpulawski

Like all of us I did not donate expecting anything...though some yellow Auratus will someday reside here (1 of mine is a senior , so only 10 more rent payments ) but I know how emotional and passionate people get around large obligates, it has undoubtedly been the source of more friendship break ups in the hobby than anything.
I just did not want to see these frogs and this project go down that path...secrecy and exclusion split our community.
These are great frogs and people will love the bold personalities, unique movement and more importantly to sustain CB frogs that are on the brink of extinction in many cases (the last part is the only reason I donated). There is a good chance I will never keep another large obligate again but I know for many that is their dream realized. The more info about this the better it is for those people, thank you so much Sherman for sharing what you could I really appreciate it.
One thing I wanted to add after the fact and the reason for this edit, I and I am sure most others did not donate with the hope of, OK here is the list pick what you want, that would have been a terrible way to go about it. I wouldn't even have a problem with a prequalified list of experienced breeders getting the entire shipments, for at least the rarest of these frogs. I just want of all of us to be able to feel like we are part of it still even if we did not get frogs, thanks again Sherman it really makes a difference knowing.


----------



## A&MGecko

Here is a story I been waiting to tell as soon as I got the approval from Ivan to take care of some PR in the name of Tesoros.
First and foremost why these first shipment of frogs were not offered publicly.
Tesoros and Ivan have been enduring this project for almost 10 years, with a lot of sacrifice of time and money to achieve this monumental goal. Chris will post a video of the conference that was held here in NYC which will explain in more details all the history of Tesoros.
I was made aware of this project by a great friend of mine Andreas. As many of you, I started donating what I could to contribute to this effort. Last year, through Andreas I was made aware of, that this project wouldn’t see the end result if some major cash flow wouldn’t start to feed Tesoros to pay employees, loans and lawyer working for the permits. Ivan has been working several jobs to feed this project with his own money and since today he has not taken a penny out of Tesoros for his effort. I wanted to do more to help, my idea was to offer a great sum of money to go as a downpayment for some animals, with the risk of them not getting the permits and losing all my money. Ivan is a great man and proud, he refused several time, he did not want to risk my money since he couldn’t guarantee he will definitely get the permits. Late last year there was a huge step back, when the permits were close to be approved things changed in the bureaucracy and Tesoros had to restart all the papers from the get go. Only this set back made Ivan very desperate, he couldn’t make payments to his wonderful and great employees, lawyers etc. he then accepted my offer. I then bank wired all the money I could to Ivan to pay for what ever he needed to move forward with this project. The battle continues for the papers and more months go by, my money ran out. Desperation kicks in again, Ivan gives me a list of what should be available and ask me if I could do this privately only with friends and see if anyone else would take this great chance. This man is so proud he wouldn’t ask for help openly and ask me to keep it as private as possible. I turn to people I knew which I could trust for privacy and at the same time have great many years of experience in the hobby to assure these animals will have the best care possible. My friends have then jumped in and everyone peached in the most they could to help as a downpayment. Again, all these was done before Tesoros had the papers, so this is why people knew a lot in advance that the animals were reserved but also knew they could have lost it all. These are the reasons why everything was done privately. 100% of the sells went to Tesoros, no one has profit from the sell of these animals other then Tesoros, in addition we offered to take many others cheaper frogs to help Ivan sell them, also here, 100% of the sell price will go to Tesoros. It will take years before Tesoros is out of the hole they are in, but now we can see a light at the end of the tunnel. 
I like to offer an apology to everyone that has donated and helped Tesoros and didn’t get any explanation sooner. 
Also I like everyone to understand that these animals do not breed easy, more will be available but Tesoros cannot make everyone happy at ones, prices will be high at first, think about 10 years of debt that needs to be recovered, now production can be maximized, more and more morphs will be available, everyone will have their dream frogs at one point or another and there will be so many different ones to chose from, This is an epic moment for all of us. We will become all soldiers of Tesoros, as more animals become available and with some successful breeding here everyone will see their dream coming through. I like everyone to work for each other, share your success and your secrets, lets make sure everyone that gets these animals breeds them successfully, this will encourage more and more people to try and enjoy these gems of nature with success. 
I was asked from Ivan if I would consider to join the Tesoros family and I accepted his offer proudly, I will be donating all the time possible to assure this project will move forward. Understand that with Cites and paperwork needed for these animals will not be possible to ship few animals here and there, so Ivan is creating “hubs" here in US with people he trust, I will try to handle as much as possible of the sells, I am sure the West coast will be taking care of as well. All the prices will be set by Ivan and Tesoros and no profit will be made from my part on anything he ships over, the only fees people will have to share is the shipping and custom cost. 
I would like everyone to respect people privacy, no one who has received animals from Tesoros is obligate to tell what they bought and for how much. Ones the hub is ready everyone will know what came in and how many of each. The prices for each morph will be set by Ivan, I can give some idea of what to expect.
I will try to handle PR as best as I can in the name of Tesoros, any questions email me at [email protected],
Everyone has to understand, the main priority here is Tesoros and no one else personal agenda. Some people will have to wait a bit longer for what they want, is just impossible to meet demands in one shot. I can guarantee you everything from the sells is going to be used for paying employees, expenses, lawyers trying to get more licenses, sylvatica and others, each one take time and money, more projects are in the work, you will have better idea on how much Ivan is dedicated to saving fauna and wildlife in Colombia from the video Chris will post. My job is to try to improve customer relation with Tesoros by giving as much informations as possible about whats happening so no one has to guess or assume anymore, just ask. Ivan can’t just handle everything. In no way shape or form I have a monopoly on sells, you are free to make any offers to Ivan personally if you like. I will prefer that people will come to NYC to take their treasure as I will not take any responsibility on shipping with in US, you can have a friend pick up for you if you are to far or busy, or we can ship at your own risk, Tesoros will only guarantee live arrival to were the box clear customs.
I believe I should have covered all as of now, in the name of the hobby I like to thank Ivan and the crew at Tesoros, everyone whom has donated time and money for this monumental achievement.
I also like to thank another great man which will receive the next box of pre sold animals soon that has made similar effort as mine, I won't say his name I have to respect privacy, he will come forward if he wants to personally.
Regards Alberto


----------



## markpulawski

Thank you, thank you, thank you
Honestly I really don't care about prices but I know there are a lot of folks that felt excluded and too intimidated to ask about the specifics, so I did. Some may feel this was sour grapes but I strongly feel it is an important step in keeping this project from getting distracted from the real goals of conservation and in reality saving frogs from extinction.


----------



## A&MGecko

You welcome, you welcome you welcome, 
As I said, prices are not a secret, we will not discuss it in a forum unless we are posting classified, we will not brake privacy of people who buy from Tesoros, they are free to tell we didn't ask to keep it a secret, just ask privately, if they want to share is their business.



markpulawski said:


> Thank you, thank you, thank you
> Honestly I really don't care about prices but I know there are a lot of folks that felt excluded and too intimidated to ask about the specifics, so I did. Some may feel this was sour grapes but I strongly feel it is an important step in keeping this project from getting distracted from the real goals of conservation and in reality saving frogs from extinction.


----------



## Aldross

Alberto
Have you been given any more info for the Bi-colors import? Last I was told was that we were looking at a maybe Feb shipment due to them needed more time to build up the supply.


----------



## A&MGecko

Yes, should be available for the next shipment probably in March.


----------



## pdfCrazy

Why is everyone so interested in the price of these frogs? Its very simple? Many people can save and put away 400-500-600 dollars for 2,3,4,5 frogs. and even that is a stretch for alot of people. Everyone knows these frogs are going for thousands PER. The exclusivity, rarity, and excitement around these frogs drives peoples curiosity. So.....you dropped 25k for a few pairs of frogs......you probably make a HOLE LOT more income per year than I do. So what. I'm not jealous. I see ferarri's, corvettes, bmer's, and other six figure cars dailey, would I like to have one? sure! Can I afford one? No. Thats why I drive a rusty pieced together mustang. But I like to know what these cars go for. 

If no one wants to say what these are going for.....thats seriously fishy to me. Whats to hide? Ashamed? Get some seriously sweet discount because you donated big cash early on? ok, whatever. But....the secressy BS drives people (including me) up the wall.

On the other side..I think it is SUPER cool to see people in the US finally getting these into their hands to work with. Until Tesoros offers these publicly and first come first serve....I will have to enjoy these frogs vicariously through their experiences. And that is just fine with me. Personally....I'd hold out for blue or red Lehmanii. Yellows are nice, but they look nearly identical to my banded leucs. Congrats to all that picked up some really nice frogs, and good luck with them.


----------



## A&MGecko

Prices are not a secret, people that bought them are not obligated to tell, no one received a discount, everyone paid the same price set by Ivan. Tesoros will not discuss prices on forums unless is on classified, you have an email address you can use to ask questions as everyone else. First shipment had adult animals because of 9 years of holding with no papers to ship, most likely from now on will be only young unsexed animals that will be available.
Again, here is the email address you can ask every question you want and so can others, considering how many people have asked the same question the emails in regards so far are near to 0.
[email protected]




pdfCrazy said:


> Why is everyone so interested in the price of these frogs? Its very simple? Many people can save and put away 400-500-600 dollars for 2,3,4,5 frogs. and even that is a stretch for alot of people. Everyone knows these frogs are going for thousands PER. The exclusivity, rarity, and excitement around these frogs drives peoples curiosity. So.....you dropped 25k for a few pairs of frogs......you probably make a HOLE LOT more income per year than I do. So what. I'm not jealous. I see ferarri's, corvettes, bmer's, and other six figure cars dailey, would I like to have one? sure! Can I afford one? No. Thats why I drive a rusty pieced together mustang. But I like to know what these cars go for.
> 
> If no one wants to say what these are going for.....thats seriously fishy to me. Whats to hide? Ashamed? Get some seriously sweet discount because you donated big cash early on? ok, whatever. But....the secressy BS drives people (including me) up the wall.
> 
> On the other side..I think it is SUPER cool to see people in the US finally getting these into their hands to work with. Until Tesoros offers these publicly and first come first serve....I will have to enjoy these frogs vicariously through their experiences. And that is just fine with me. Personally....I'd hold out for blue or red Lehmanii. Yellows are nice, but they look nearly identical to my banded leucs. Congrats to all that picked up some really nice frogs, and good luck with them.


----------



## pdfCrazy

Prices are not secret......but you wont post them on the board....and I have to send a private email to get prices?


----------



## A&MGecko

Yes that is correct, it is my ethic that I don't like to talk sells on a page made to discuss animals and care, I have done so even in my 15 years working with geckos and I do not see a problem with it. I talk sells on the page for sale, care and informations in the page for care and information.



pdfCrazy said:


> Prices are not secret......but you wont post them on the board....and I have to send a private email to get prices?


----------



## Spaff

Folks, chill out about the pricing. Have you ever seen prices for Wikiri animals posted publicly? What about the majority of UE's list? I know I've always had to send them an email. 

What should be the focus here is the fact that a source of biocommerce has opened in Colombia, and it is thanks in large part to this hobby...each person who donated anything, participated in our auction, the NY auctions that were held had a hand in creating a sustainable conservation platform for these rare frogs in their habitat. Getting some nice frogs in the US is just lagniappe.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Spaff said:


> lagniappe.


...I just learned a new word, so you get a "thanks"


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

If you're serious about acquiring some and want to know the price, just email them and ask. I did and received a very prompt response.


----------



## Dendro Dave

ZookeeperDoug said:


> If you're serious about acquiring some and want to know the price, just email them and ask. I did and received a very prompt response.


Did they say anything about accepting trades? I'll give them my soul.... but not my fox!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Dendro Dave said:


> Did they say anything about accepting trades? I'll give them my soul.... but not my fox!


Haha. Honestly guys. The price is not unreasonable at all, all things considered. I have to sit down and talk with the wife, preferably after we have been at the wine festival today for a few hours.


----------



## Coqui

Well, I have tried to appreciate and enjoy the outcome of Tesoros effort and Everyone's contribution to the cause. We did it and it is a good feeling. 
Now to burst the Happiness bubble. 
My opinion is we should know the price of these frogs, aren't we the ones as a community made this happen, and yes price is important to me. Yes, some vendors don't post prices we have to email them but most don't get donations to make the sale happen. 
Even more important then price is future imports like what, how and where will this information be posted or will certain people be chosen? Please don't state that I can email this question, the point should be that it becomes public for the community to see.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

That's kind of a sad reason to burst your happiness bubble about this but suit yourself. Happiness is a choice.

At this point I think we've reached a stubbornness impass. Certain people want to demand the price be posted. The appropriate contact has explained how to obtain pricing information and when and where they will post prices in the future. One could also make an easy case that posting prices here, could constitute a breech of the UA for the forums, essentially posting an Ad for animals where prohibited.

The information is easily and readily available. It took me less than 15 minutes to get a satisfactory answer. 

Like it or not, for now, you're going to have to take it upon yourself to make the effort to acquire the information you want. Or you can wait, until they post actual animals for sale, which might not happen based on demand.

There is no secrecy or lack of transparency here. As has been stated elsewhere, this happens with other vendors and frogs all the time. You may not be aware, but several high profile frogs from very highly respected vendors, breeders, and conservation groups are offered/made available privately first before ads are publically posted. ask yourself how often do you see posts from UE for frogs with prices, almost never, you email Elaine for a price and availability list.

Seriously guys, this doesn't need to be this complicated. Stop creating drama whee there isn't any.


----------



## redfrogger

Coqui said:


> Well, I have tried to appreciate and enjoy the outcome of Tesoros effort and Everyone's contribution to the cause. We did it and it is a good feeling.
> Now to burst the Happiness bubble.
> My opinion is we should know the price of these frogs, aren't we the ones as a community made this happen, and yes price is important to me. Yes, some vendors don't post prices we have to email them but most don't get donations to make the sale happen.
> Even more important then price is future imports like what, how and where will this information be posted or will certain people be chosen? Please don't state that I can email this question, the point should be that it becomes public for the community to see.


Like stated before, again and again. If you care to know the prices then email them. Whenever I am looking for a frog, either it be a private breeder or a large company, I email them. I ask what the price is roughly, if there is a waiting list etc etc. I'm sure you have emailed Elaine in the past. The system works; stop complaining about it and move on.


----------



## Coqui

Unfortunately, I don't donate time and money to other conservation projects that will help the frogs of Colombia, I have only helped and will continue to help Ivan's project, so in return, I will still wait for the price to be posted, If it ever happens. 
Yes, I have emailed for prices before, but they never received any donations nor effort of any kind from me. 
Drama happened because there were some that were chosen to be the first recipients in secret. I'm glad that the people that got these frogs are well respected and experience breeders but this Drama would not have existed if everyone was made aware when this decision was made. What would the problem be by being upfront with the community that contributed to this worthy cause.
Again, I would also like to know, what, how and where will future import information from Ivan will be posted? Or are future imports being offered to a selective few again. 
Ps. Price was communicated to me by a recipient of those lovely frogs. 
I still believe it should be posted.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Alberto already addressed ALL of this already.


----------



## pdfCrazy

ZookeeperDoug said:


> There is no secrecy or lack of transparency here. As has been stated elsewhere, this happens with other vendors and frogs all the time. You may not be aware, but several high profile frogs from very highly respected vendors, breeders, and conservation groups are offered/made available privately first before ads are publically posted. ask yourself how often do you see posts from UE for frogs with prices, almost never, you email Elaine for a price and availability list.


I have emailed them in the past (UE), and dont like it. For that VERY reason, I stopped dealing with UE. I dont want to have to chase them down for pricing and availability. If they are the ones offering items for sale (whomever, UE, Tesoros, Wikiri), then they can post them publicly. Until then, my money stays in my pocket. Yes, that might mean I dont get frogs, but so be it. Its they're frogs, their bussiness, but its my money, and I chose where to spend it. Because of the secrecy, double dealing/insider dealing I am chosing NOT to deal with Tesoros.


----------



## dmartin72

Didn't you recently pick up some Nominals from UE?


----------



## markpulawski

....maybe it's time to close this thread and I am sorry I opened up such a can of worms, the sting will go away (for me it already has) but some will fester for a while. All who supported thought the process would be fair, the first import was not but I have no doubt future ones will be. Be patient, ask for pricing, if you really want the frogs you will very likely have the chance to get them...in a few months or a year but if these frogs are your dream they are worth the wait and truely amazing animals. Yellow Lehmanni are the most spectacular frogs I have ever seen (with wide banded orange a close 2nd)and bold as heck.
I am sure Tesoros was pulled in a million directions and when desperate for the cash to see this project through leapt at the chance to presell some frogs. They are supplying the frogs we so desperately wanted and if you didn't get them in the first shipment big deal, get your name on for the next. Not supporting Tesoros after all they and we have been through to get this done would be the biggest mistake this community could make. Navigating the beauracracy of the Colombian politics is and was an amazing feat and no doubt far more difficult than any of us here realize.
Kudos to Ivan, long live Tesoros.


----------



## Coqui

Mark, very well stated. 
PDF crazy please reconsider dealing with Tesoro. As you know as well as everyone who read this thread that I was and am upset on how this went down. 
I just PM someone on this thread that I was done posting on this topic. I am making this my last post. I promise. I ask everyone who has supported Tesoro to continue, I am because at the end we want to save that treasure in Colombia. 
Ivan has a lot of more work to do and it will be a difficult journey. 
Please continue to support the cause.


----------



## pdfCrazy

I have, and do support Tesoros efforts. I do not support some of the bussiness choices as I feel they were deceptive. I applaud their success and wish the best for future imports. I dont want to further any negativity, and id rather people enjoy the news and updates on these frogs.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*I think everyone posting gets it,* but for anyone just reading: Realize that and that while there is some discussion and minor difference of opinion,, this not drama like the USAfrog fiasco... This IS a win for us 

And remember real conservation work is going to come from this beyond just supplying demand with legal frogs, so if you haven't donated; there is a lot more reason to now. 

Personally I've operated my hobby on a shoe string budget for years and I've managed to kick a few bucks their way. I think if you love these animals its the right thing to do. If not to Tesoros, at least find some other amphibian related cause and make a.small or large donation: after all you and the world are benefiting from their efforts, and these guys don't always get the attention they deserve like whales, or pandas and stuff 

So it is up to those of us that appreciate these animals the most to step up in at least some small way.

Personally I'm more an Idea man then a doer, but even I can find $5 and click a PayPal button


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I donated time and money and don`t care how much they are or who get`s them.

What upsets me is getting BBQ sauce on my Tesoros t-shirt today...


----------



## epiphytes etc.




----------



## A&MGecko

Guys this very simple, Tesoros was going to close down, I made an offer of thousands of dollars to make it keep going only asking that those money would go for payment of animals if they ever got the papers, Ivan accepted (at the point of no return), money run out again, same problem, he ask me to find more people willing to do the same, I did, he asked this to be private because after 9 years of battling for papers and hundreds of thousands gone to the wind he couldn't handle the public, the man almost broke down, if you can't understand it, I am sorry, this is what happen. This was 1 man battle against all the odds, there is no understanding here? There was no attempt to be shady or deceptive just a single man that couldn't handle it anymore.
We also kept donating time and money in addition, I just bought 200$+ at the auction for Tesoros for BS I don't really need. I am above 1k easy for donation alone, I do not want to brag here but with out our effort and courage everyone in the world would have seen these animals only from pictures in the books, in addition I am still donating time to help for FREE, sell their animals for FREE, I cannot do more. I have my ethics when I do business if you don't like them you have option, contact Ivan and organize your own import if you don't like what I am doing, order from other people that organize the import, I do not have exclusivity. The simple truth is, there are not enough animals to make everyone happy, even next import will have people left out, I am thinking already on how to make this fear, is not easy, people will complain because are left out again, I am not a magician and make animals appear it is how it is right now, simple as that. I am checking if is possible to do a waiting list or take downpayment, Ivan won't be back to Colombia until Monday, so I don't know yet his answer.
You want price to be public, email Ivan and ask him to put them on their website were they would belong, not here were only the DB members see them, it is Ivan choice to do so or not, not mine.
FYI, I work as a waiter, none of my friend are doctors or engineers with 100K in our bank account, we took a huge loop of faith with months of our salary to make this happen.
This is my last effort to try to make people understand how this went, I really can't do more, sorry.
Alberto


----------



## Aldross

Alberto 
You can only beat a dead horse so much. Some will just complain to do so. I wondered about the price. I asked and knew within a few minutes. 
Keep up the great work and enjoy 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## Azurel

I emailed and was replied with in a few hours....

Answered all my questions....

In the end desperate times calls for desperate measures even if it wasn't made public. But understanding the situation now and how things went down I can understand. Honestly I was skeptical due to not much clearity of info..

But I also didn't risk giant sums of money with the understanding if the permits never surfaced they lost all of the cash they put on the line....With that in mind I can understand why these specific people were first in line....They risked and the risked paid off not for just them but Tesoros and in reality the hobby at large and for conservation on the ground in Colombia which is the most important aspect....

Knowing now the dire straights that the situation was and could very well still be I will be looking to add Tesoros frogs to my collection wither it be Lehmanni, histrionicus, sylvatica or others.

I only wished the was more openness or clearity from the beginning not necessarily the need as Alberto has explained as far as the risk of large sums of cash but in general.

If that would have happened I would have put my money into the situation to help. But I work hard for it and when I put it into something I like to know more what I am supporting.

Thank you Alberto for clearing things up and explaining what was going on...

Knowing what I know now I can fully support Tesoros and will be doing so in the future.

James


Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


----------



## dmartin72

Well said James...exactly how I feel. Now let's get on with Tesoro's party!


----------



## ecichlid

Unless it was published and I missed it, can we see a list of frogs that were imported and the quantity of each? I don't believe this violates any policy here Alberto.


----------



## Dendro Dave

dmartin72 said:


> Well said James...exactly how I feel. Now let's get on with Tesoro's party!


Get on with it?

I've been at the strip club all night waiting for you guys to show up! ...I was forced to get lap dance after lap dance, and now I'm drunk on fuzzy navels, low on cigarettes, out of 1's, and I can't afford to many more 5's... where is everyone? How could you abandon me to this horrifying fate?


----------



## A&MGecko

No is no secret, as matter of fact a database is on the work, you will know exactly how many, who has got them and PICS of each frog from the top and bottom so it can be identified. The import was not done under my name so I don't have the paper with the exact count, I may have forgot some but it was not huge numbers.
21 red, 9 yellow and 6 white/cream lehmanni
12 Bulls
6 red heads
The rest was Pyllobates Aurentaenia Yellow and Truncatus that we are carrying for and trying to sell with 100% of the money going to Tesoros. Unfortunately 1 yellow lehmanni didn't make the trip, :-(, but it was the only loss on 100+ animals.
Also, I do like to say that the best way to ask questions to me is with that email provided as you can imagine is simple impossible for me to be present to every forum and reed every post. If any of you is interested in following a Facebook group to check in updated and informations on the frogs imported let me know I send you the link, I don't think is appropriate to post it here, I do not want to break any of the forum rules, some of you may be already part of it. There are already eggs laid from this import, the animals are just in excellent conditions and some people may not even need to wait for the next import to get some, 
Again thanks for the understanding and the support, guys there will be so many new morphs that will blow your mind out, no one single person will be able to handle them all I guarantee you, I have seen PICS of new stuff, OMG, don't ask, I can't post them sorry, but man o man you have no idea, stuff you have never seen. Also, as of now Tesoros is working to get sylvatica papers, it takes a year or so for every new addition, and lots of lawyer money. 
Alberto



ecichlid said:


> Unless it was published and I missed it, can we see a list of frogs that were imported and the quantity of each? I don't believe this violates any policy here Alberto.


----------



## Boboluke

It seems that things have gotten a bit derailed.

I figured I'd pop in and say thank you to everyone.

Congrats and good luck with the lehmanni and others.


----------



## hypostatic

It would be nice if whoever is selling the Colombian frogs' offspring would donate a portion of the proceeds in order to promote continued conservation of these species. Although I realize this becomes less likely the more they are bred and sold in captivity.


----------



## stu&shaz

Alberto,Chris thanks for clearing all this up for everyone.

Alberto,thank YOU good sir for taking this chance with your hard earned money. Please thank your friends too,it's very cool with hind sight that you got some of what Ivan has worked so hard for, the risk you all took I see as one for all of us.I'm so happy to see some of Ivan's frogs pictured in america in the hobby it's another milestone. I'm utterly thrilled for you, your friends and Ivan!!

Having spoken to him I'm sure all you have told us is true,he's tried so hard to do this alone . Your words about him being proud and not wanting our help really ,but having to take it because of the circumstances he is working under drop into place for me......completely!!!! 

May you all have all the luck in the world with them.

This mad Colombian is the real deal guys,so many have doubted him so many have tried to help as I mentioned before especially in America,I firmly believe in him,my one regret is of late I haven't been able to do enough myself. He keeps on coming though, good god it's an amazing story,and slowly but surely goals are being achieved .

Genuine legal lehmanni in the states from a sustainable source a pipe dream just years back. But it's happened past tense what an amazing triumph for all who care

I must go no time froggies to feed..... you guys keep making my use me special glass I'll turn into a drunk if this keeps up: a toast to all concerned

Happy days

massive thanks


Stu


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

hypostatic said:


> It would be nice if whoever is selling the Colombian frogs' offspring would donate a portion of the proceeds in order to promote continued conservation of these species. Although I realize this becomes less likely the more they are bred and sold in captivity.


A number of us have been doing this. 

Me personally, I only own Truncatus, which are extremely prolific, and in unfortunately low demand(such an awesome under appreciated frog. My 2 year old says they "glow in dark daddy!"). I've stopped pulling eggs, and favor people buying directly. The ones I have left, 100% will go to tesoros efforts.

For the large obligates, I think it would be fair, for those who purchased them to recoup their investment. Even so, knowing some who are involved, I'm willing to bet they've already considered doing what you suggest. 

May be too early to suggest here, but with these frogs, working from this founder population, we really have a chance to properly manage the diversity and genetics in such a way that we can really insure their husbandry is responsibly managed within the hobby. It would be great, since some many are in the same local area, for froglets from different pairs be distributed to new keepers(or existing ones if they have the resources).


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Wait, white/cream lehmannii? I would really like to see pics of these.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

epiphytes etc. said:


> Wait, white/cream lehmannii? I would really like to see pics of these.


I think I saw some posted in one of the Facebook posts. Looked more greenish to me.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

I'm not on fb, but I looked at the Tesoros page and didn't see anything.


----------



## A&MGecko

Dear God, oh sir, people that have bought these frogs will give 100% of the profit from the sells of the offspring back to Tesoros and a lot more on top, I guarantee you that, because this is just a start, you haven't see what else is coming, there will be years before anyone will put anything to their bank account, you can all rest assured, 



hypostatic said:


> It would be nice if whoever is selling the Colombian frogs' offspring would donate a portion of the proceeds in order to promote continued conservation of these species. Although I realize this becomes less likely the more they are bred and sold in captivity.


----------



## A&MGecko

I needed time to ask permission to post this from their owner, there are a lot of variation with in the groups, the red come from deep red to orange, the yellows have an amazing variation of color to that greenish color mentioned, to deep yellow with orange outlines, is just awesome, but this is different, look at this.











epiphytes etc. said:


> Wait, white/cream lehmannii? I would really like to see pics of these.


----------



## Aldross

Idris has post them in the RAC as of yesterday. Very cool looking. Though I still like the reds more.


----------



## stu&shaz

The above picture is a bit mind blowing really,it's not just the species. I was completely unaware of this variation in colours,sure i'm no advanced frogger ,but i've put an hour or two in on the study front. Ain't it the truth with darts the more one learns the more one realizes how little one really knows!! Already nearly white and almost green lehmanni have been posted. As has already been mentioned how much more is there to come that we (ok leastways me) are completely unaware of,i'm sure others must be thinking this too. 

Alberto,if you and your friends could keep posting pictures here as well as face book I personally would be very grateful,I am now on facebook,but so many others aren't and it would be lovely to share this with all.
tkae care and wishes of luck

Stu


----------



## Sherman

I have a few picture of the big day, but no animals to photograph at home, so I have to dole them out slowly. Beauties, every one of them.


----------



## srrrio

Just popping in to offer my congratulations! I would love to see the day that all frogs are imported only from sustainable farms. I am heartened that Tesoros is still very much in the game.


----------



## Sherman

OK, I admit it, I was kinda trolling with that previous picture. For those of you that did not catch what I did there, that was a _Dendrobates truncatus_ "Nilo" bellyshot. It came in the same box with all the obligtes! A super cool frog it's own right. 
I can't believe no one bit. 
Here is another little beauty that arrived in the box with the big boys. I'll be straight up this time, _P. aurotaenia_.
Best,
Chris


----------



## Aldross

Sherman said:


> OK, I admit it, I was kinda trolling with that previous picture. For those of you that did not catch what I did there, that was a _Dendrobates truncatus_ "Nilo" bellyshot. It came in the same box with all the obligtes! A super cool frog it's own right.
> I can't believe no one bit.
> Here is another little beauty that arrived in the box with the big boys. I'll be straight up this time, _P. aurotaenia_.
> Best,
> Chris


Can't wait for mine to show up. Idris is holding a few for me till I'm ready for them.


----------



## Julio

Biggest aurotaenias i seen in the hobby ever!!


----------



## MasterOogway

Julio said:


> Biggest aurotaenias i seen in the hobby ever!!


I'm really excited for the aurotaenias, those are gorgeous frogs. Look forwards to picking up a couple at some point.


----------



## Julio

well hurry up, half are gone!


----------



## MasterOogway

Julio said:


> well hurry up, half are gone!


Argh, trying to move from the far north down into civilization here in a month. Frogs acquisitions are on hold for a couple months. :-(


----------



## Sherman

Dendro Dave said:


> Sherman, or someone in contact with Ivan or others helping out might wanna let him know asap and I'll try to send them an email... But I'm having trouble logging into any of the Tesoros shops. I was thinking of getting a coffee mug for my coco since fall/winter is approaching, but the shop won't load


CafePress is now linked up to the Tesoros de Colombia website vis the "shop" button. (Thanks Chris Bellec)
20% of the purchase price of all items will go directly to Tesoros.

Dave, there is all sorts of fun, new swag you can get, including coffee mugs (Color changing ones too!), but I think my personal favorite is the pink footy pajamas.


----------



## pa.walt

pink footy pjs. look good on you chris at the next white plains show.


----------



## herbivrus

I'm the lucky frog-keeper of three species produced by Tesoros: Dendrobates truncatus, Phyllobates aurotaenia, and Phyllobates terribilis 'Orange Black-foot'. All of these frogs are beautiful, healthy, sustainably produced, and great display animals (the aurotaenia have the prettiest call in frogdom, I think). I wish more people were interested in keeping these species (so do Tesoros, who have sometimes had trouble selling these "common" frogs to a hobby that's always in search of the next shiny thing). 

In particular, I think the aurotaenia would be a spectacular beginners' species, and wish that I saw it mentioned as such more often. They are bold, always visible, have interesting group behaviors, are beautiful, and have such a sweet, trilling call. If you haven't kept them before, and even if you're a seasoned hobbyist who specializes in rarer species, I highly encourage you to get some Tesoros aurotaenia. Awesome display animals. The truncatus are just as pretty -- electric yellow stripes on a velvety black background --and are quite bold when kept in a group, too (well, at least for me; I bought a pair at first, and only occasionally saw one, but I added three more and now there are almost always three or more out and about). I think we'd do well to encourage newer frogkeepers to purchase these species and others from Tesoros in order both to help Tesoros continue its good work and to ensure that new hobbyists have success with their first frogs, and can really enjoy their bold natures and beautiful colors. Always nice to be able both to encourage continuing interest in the hobby as well as enlighten new members to the conservation-motivated bio-commerce of groups like Tesoros, Understory, WIKIRI, etc. Here are a couple lousy iPhone pics of my Tesoros aurotaenia and truncatus . . .








[/url]IMG_4070 by herbivore12, on Flickr[/IMG]

IMG_0128 by herbivore12, on Flickr


----------



## Dendrobait

Anyone here keep both aurotaenia and lugubris and want to comment on any similarities? I've seen lugubris on display and am always stunned by their boldness despite their rather small size.


----------



## hypostatic

Wait, did Tesoros every disclose how they are attempting to keep their stock distinct from animals that have been brought out of Colombia illegally? Like, are they microchipped or anything?


----------



## herbivrus

Dendrobait said:


> Anyone here keep both aurotaenia and lugubris and want to comment on any similarities? I've seen lugubris on display and am always stunned by their boldness despite their rather small size.


Though I haven't kept lugubris, I do also keep teribilis, and the Tesoros aurotaenia are just about as bold (but more active/fun to watch). I can open their viv and work around them, and they don't run away unless my hand nearly brushes them. I have a male who, when I play a recording of an aurotaenia on my phone outside their viv (a recording of himself, in fact!), comes bounding to the front glass and then puts on a nice singing display to show who's boss. They know that seeing me frequently means flies are about to appear, so they often bounce toward me when I open the viv. Coupled with their pretty call, I quickly became enamored of these guys after getting them, and the love affair has only gotten stronger: just fantastic frogs. I'd be delighted to see them more widely kept, and more frequently recommended to beginners (though even as the keeper of 14 or 15 other species, I find these guys delightful).


----------

