# Why not biotope tanks? Please explain



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Okay, so I finally found 'Anoles w Dartfrogs"--good thread. 

I am curious, SO LET ME PHRASE THE (philosophical) QUESTION THIS WAY:

Why, if aquatic biotopes work, stop--let me explain  Some very serious people maintain big aquatic biotopes that work.

--A school of tetras, 1 pr dwarf cichilds, 3 cory cats, 1 Ancistrus cat, Echinodorus, Cabomba;
--a school of rasboras, 2 cherry barbs, 2 gouramis, some small loaches, crypts, Aponogeton..

And, of course, there are reef tanks!

You get the idea. It can and does work.

So I suggest the question be phrased this way: "Why do biotope tanks work with fish and not with dart frogs?"

I suspect that your answers will be some combo of the following:

a) Because, compared to fish, darfrogs are candyasses;
b) No, because you cannot compare an aquatic environment to a terrestrial one--(e.g., pop densities are higher in water, the fish you mention are less territorial, etc.,)
c) You should not mix ANYTHING if your goal is breeding;
d) We do not believe that aquatic biotope tanks are a good idea, either;
e) Because Black phantom tetras cost $3.99, and P. terribilis cost $75

I look forward to your thoughtful replies 

For the record, I am not here to argue; I do not keep pdfs as my tanks are too warm. I am honestly curious.


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## diver123 (Aug 26, 2009)

Cross breeding occurs and is not generally favored. Thought i would never say this but use the search function and all your questions will be answered. Search" mixed species tank" but above all not another war on mixed tanks we just closed a thread a few days ago. Or is that another troll under my bed.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I would say that the majority of people wanting to mix are not experienced enough with the animals involved, and are attempting to mix in an enclosure that is much too small or otherwise poorly designed from the animals' standpoint.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

I personally subscribe to B, C, and E...but admittedly that is just my opinion.

Clearly, biotopes can work if done properly. As you stated in another thread, there are credible, respected herpetologists/keepers who have proven it. I think one reason that many here try to dissuade from it is because it is rarely an optimal situation for any one of the occupants (again, there are exceptions)

I personally think the main reason they are recommended against is because, almost invariably, the person asking about them has very little experience with PDF's (check the search function under "mixing" and you will see), hasn't done their research, doesn't realize that the "I'm just gonna' put them together and watch for problems" approach isn't going to work because they don't know the subtleties of the animals well enough to know a problem when they see it, and actually wouldn't count it as that big of loss if they lost the frog anyway.

Also, as you inferred in the other thread (I like how you put it), a lot of us are just more cautious. Until a new keeper has a chunk of years in the hobby, I think they ought to be cautious as well. Heck, I have been breeding herps for over a decade, at one point on a semi-large scale, and I don't think I have the experience for/time to focus on a successful biotope.

You know what would be awesome? If this was the first mixing thread that stayed mature and civil.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Thank You, Boondoggle. 

1) Again, let me reiterate that I am not recommending mixing pdfs. I keep lizards, hylids and hyperoliids, and these tanks are too warm in the summer for pdfs.

2) I think that one problem beginners have--I know I did 25 yrs ago--is they do not appreciate the concept of, and need for, size. Remeber when hen we were kids, our first 29H was a BIG tank And how about those Zoomed and Exoterra terraria? Yes they can be nice--for what, 3 frogs?!? Or 2 small day geckos?

When I say I would mix 2 flying geckos, 2 tree skinks, 2 treefrogs and 2 emperor newts, I mean in a 55, not a 15!

Or , 2 grey treefrogs, 1.2 anoles I mean a 29H, not a 10!!

Actually, a 29 could do a 1.2 small Phelsuma and 3 or 4 reed frogs. This is an advantage of arboreal animals, they use more surface area w/o competing. 

Peace, brother


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I think this thread discusses a biotopic enclosures to some extent.. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

"Anoles with dart frogs"

Isn't that the thread where Emily and I went "toe to toe" way back....couple years ago? lol 

in short,

You primarily, will need:

1. A boatload of experience with the animals in question and viv's.
2. A huge enclosure.....huge by this hobby's standards.
3. Supreme knowledge of clay based substrate and microfauna support


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

zBrinks said:


> I would say that the majority of people wanting to mix are not experienced enough with the animals involved, and are attempting to mix in an enclosure that is much too small or otherwise poorly designed from the animals' standpoint.


X2 on what ZBrinks said.

I do not think the arguement is can it be done but rather that the average Joe lacks the knowledge to do it properly/successfully.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Just to start with:

Coventional aquarium sizes are all too small for what you are planning.

20 gallon
55 gallon
even 90...100......

all too small.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

what exactly makes an appropriate sized enclosure?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

bussardnr said:


> what exactly makes an appropriate sized enclosure?


just off the top of my head....appropraite enclosure size should take into consideration:

1) Spatial requirements of the animals - their size and habits.
2) Nutrient Acquisition - ease of.
3) Stress. Provides adequate niches and barriers for all animals.
4) Pathogens and Disease prevention are addressed.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> just off the top of my head....appropraite enclosure size should take into consideration:
> 
> 1) Spatial requirements of the animals - their size and habits.
> 2) Nutrient Acquisition - ease of.
> ...


It would be nice to see single-species situations treated with the same consideration, rather than everyone always harping on "mixers" with these types of qualifications. Unfortunately, I usually only see these guidelines posted and adamantly defended when someone wants to mix species...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ron,

You are right....that list is basic and preliminary for all animals and just so happens to have the appearence of being intrinsic to this "mixer" thread only by default - Nate asked a spin off question.

It's a shame that most of the new people want to push the envelope right away. I have another theory as well.....

1. There is always the need for 'one upsmanship" with regard to CB and exotic animals.A lot of people are ever satisfied unless they are the new groundbreakers or against the norm. A very sophomoric attitude.

2. There is a unique American Attitude of "don't tell me what to do". I don't exactly have the pulse of the European or Asian hobby trends but this is my guess.

Still, all in all a very rewarding hobby with more good than bad.

I'm still in


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Just to start with:
> 
> Coventional aquarium sizes are all too small for what you are planning.
> 
> ...


I don't think that this is true particularly depending on the species involved. Instead it has to do more with how the enclosure is set up and whether or not the appropriate niches are supplied to allow for maximal natural behaviors. The list below is more appropriate in determining whether or not the enclosure is right regardless of size. If you read through the thread I posted above, you should note that increasing the size of the enclosure does not automatically transfer to increased available space. 




Philsuma said:


> 1) Spatial requirements of the animals - their size and habits.
> 2) Nutrient Acquisition - ease of.
> 3) Stress. Provides adequate niches and barriers for all animals.
> 4) Pathogens and Disease prevention are addressed.


When dealing with dissimilar genera/taxa people often continue to apply a spatial requirements despite the lack of recognition that the other animal is anything other than a mobile piece of cage furniture....


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Another issue with darts and biotopic terraria is the lack of suitable reptiles and amphibs that won't hurt the darts and will do well in the constantly damp and warm confines of the dartfrog vivarium.

If a very experienced keeper wanted to do a large biotope display, they could do a Central American theme. In a huge viv, you could probably get away with keeping a few D. pumilo, a few D. auratus, a helmeted iguana (Corytophanes), and maybe a tree frog species like Hyla leucophyllata. That tank would need to have every bit of 48 sq ft of living space to succeed.

Another idea would be a Suriname based tank featuring Dendrobates azureus, Atelopus spumarius, and Hyla marmorata. Good luck on finding the atelopus!

But a setup like this is designed for displaying a slice of that habitat, the way it would be found in nature. It does so at the expense of ideal breeding conditions and the possible loss of a frog through stress or predation. A helmeted iguana may go years without eating a dart and then one day it decides to sample one. If your goal is to keep and breed frogs, I'd say keep them by themself. If your goal is to recreate the extraordinarily diverse rainforest habitat then go ahead and try a biotope tank. Just be aware of the many potential pitfalls and the usual negative public view.

Of course, you can always go completely biotopic on the plants and just have one species of frog. Very satifying and safe at the same time


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

JoshH said:


> ... the lack of suitable reptiles and amphibs that won't hurt the darts and will do well in the constantly damp and warm confines of the dartfrog vivarium.


If we REALLY considered the biotopes these frogs come from, I think we would realize that they aren't subject to a constantly damp environment. Like I said above, I think even our single species tanks could use a lot of work in the way we attempt to replicate the frogs' environments.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JoshH said:


> If a very experienced keeper wanted to do a large biotope display, they could do a Central American theme. In a huge viv, you could probably get away with keeping a few D. pumilo, a few D. auratus, a helmeted iguana (Corytophanes), and maybe a tree frog species like Hyla leucophyllata. That tank would need to have every bit of 48 sq ft of living space to succeed.


But if you dropped out the idea of the lizard, then the tank size doesn't need to be anywhere close to that big.. 



JoshH said:


> Another idea would be a Suriname based tank featuring Dendrobates azureus, Atelopus spumarius, and Hyla marmorata. Good luck on finding the atelopus!.


I still have one A. s. hoogmoedi.... 

But a


JoshH said:


> setup like this is designed for displaying a slice of that habitat, the way it would be found in nature. It does so at the expense of ideal breeding conditions and the possible loss of a frog through stress or predation. A helmeted iguana may go years without eating a dart and then one day it decides to sample one. If your goal is to keep and breed frogs, I'd say keep them by themself. If your goal is to recreate the extraordinarily diverse rainforest habitat then go ahead and try a biotope tank. Just be aware of the many potential pitfalls and the usual negative public view.


If done properly, this doesn't have to be true (but I also wouldn't place a helmeted iguana into the mix..). Housing say D. ebracatta (Hourglass treefrogs) and sympatric dendobatids works well and the ebracatta will breed in some form of small pool (or even a large water bowl with pothos in it..) while the dendrobatids readily breed in cocohuts.. or other appropriate areas. 



JoshH said:


> Of course, you can always go completely biotopic on the plants and just have one species of frog. Very satifying and safe at the same time


Also very satifying and in general much easier to keep up.. 

Ed


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> If we REALLY considered the biotopes these frogs come from, I think we would realize that they aren't subject to a constantly damp environment. Like I said above, I think even our single species tanks could use a lot of work in the way we attempt to replicate the frogs' environments.


Good point! The forest floor isn't always sopping wet, and the ventilation in those habitats is far better then found in any sealed tank. Only the most advanced hobbiest should stray beyond single species tanks, as very few terrariums come close to matching the respective habitats in the wild.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> If we REALLY considered the biotopes these frogs come from, I think we would realize that they aren't subject to a constantly damp environment. Like I said above, I think even our single species tanks could use a lot of work in the way we attempt to replicate the frogs' environments.


I'm in total agreement with this statement.. 

Ed


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> But if you dropped out the idea of the lizard, then the tank size doesn't need to be anywhere close to that big..
> If done properly, this doesn't have to be true (but I also wouldn't place a helmeted iguana into the mix..). Housing say D. ebracatta (Hourglass treefrogs) and sympatric dendobatids works well and the ebracatta will breed in some form of small pool (or even a large water bowl with pothos in it..) while the dendrobatids readily breed in cocohuts.. or other appropriate areas.


True, I just wanted to present a more extreme multispecies scenerio such as found in some zoos/aquariums. Many smaller setups could be created using a dendrobatid and another small amphibian. Or darts and a small reptile like Gonatodes or Spheros (though both would require a much more ventilated habitat then most dart keepers have). I would imagine smaller species of Bolitiglossa could work as well.





Ed said:


> I still have one A. s. hoogmoedi....


Down to just one?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JoshH said:


> Down to just one?


Yep.. just the one male left.. From what I can tell, its one of a handful left in the country (and if from I found out is correct, none are females). 

Ed


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

What a wonderful, considerate thread! Happy holidays to all!

1) As I wrote on Crested Geckos, sometimes I feel that pdf fanciers extrapolate from their area to all herpetoculture, to wit: "No, you cannot keep collared lizards w a chuckwalla; 
"No you cannot keep small Phelsuma w reed frogs." etc...

But both have been done in large, well set up tanks...

2) I have often wondered why darts are maintained enclosed; I surmised it is their body size compared to bigger amphibians (moisture lss due to the square/cube law). But the point, among captive bred animals, some--only some--animals have been mixed w some success.

I have seen darts maintained w small Dendrosophus and bigger Atelopus.

But as for Bolitoglossa--can ANYONE keep these things alive?!? 

For the record, I will not try pdfs with my lizard and hylids; my tanks are too warm in the summer (mid-high 80s).

But if there was such a thing as a "warm growing" pdf, I would--how would they and the D. marmorata actually compete?

3) For those who care: Corythophanes do not bother small herps if well fed. In fact, treefrogs like to sit on their heads... And they go crazy for earthworms (I know, I actually bred them--in a community tank


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Groundhog said:


> .
> 
> But as for Bolitoglossa--can ANYONE keep these things alive?!?


Yes, but it requires a lot of effort... I have worked with both B. dolflini and B. mexicana with both living for years and there is a description in the journal Salamandra of captive breeding B. mexicana and I believe that some of the Pseudoeurycea have also been captive bred since then. 

Shoot me a e-mail or pm and I'll be happy to discuss what it takes to get them to live.. 

Ed


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Philsuma:

Speaking as someone who studied it, I am impressed by your sociological analysis. Interesting, and to my my way of thinking, accurate.


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## azure89 (Jan 5, 2009)

too bad we all don't have greenhouses to house our frogs


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

In thinking about this, here is my take on the subject. I would suggest these as very general guidelines. This is not, strictly speaking, aimed at PDF keepers: Maybe it is better suited to the Amphibian site. 

1) Do not bend animals to your tank. You have an established moist tank, but just have to get that Phyllomedusa? Um,too bad.

2) Understand the relationship between volume and surface area, and plan accordingly. Bigger is better--but is taller? It depends on your objective; lush vertical planting does not mean one can get more terrestrial animals! Gause's rule of competitive exclusion: No two organisms in the same space can occupy the same niche (maybe that's why I can't meet any Neandertal broads...).

The strata rule employed by aquarists is useful here (.i.e., I already have a mid-level school, I can get a surface school.)

3) Appreciate the species actual attitudes towards territoriality. Four green tree frogs will huddle together no prob. Male Corythophanes will simply bob at each other--but in their close relatives the basilisks, adult males will tear each other up in all but the largest of enclosures (and even then the subordinate animal will be stressed). 

4) Appreciate the animal's real dietary preferences. (Here Ed and I are not in complete agreement; I tend to be somewhat more anthropomorphic than Ed and believe that a lot of herps, especially some lizards can be trained if acquired as babies). However, it is always best to err on the side of logic; no baby Ceratophrys, no vine snakes with lizards. no turtles with newts, etc; 


5) I try to mix species not only from the same continents but, similiar microclimates. Ah, but does this not violate #2? Not really. Similar microclimate does mean same niche. I think it possible to mix 1.2 neotropical anoles with 2.1 Dendrosophus marmorata; one sp is diurnal, one crepescular and nocturnal. But I would not mix pdf's with Phyllomedusines--even though they can live just a few meters (vertically) apart. 

For those who care, small phelsumas with Hyperolius work in tall enclosures.

6) Ask yourself this question, and be honest: Why do you grow plants? To appear naturalistic? Then you would not rush to grow jewel orchids with pdfs. For the frogs? Then why are your tanks always covered at 138% humidity? You just like the way certain plants look? Okay, cool.

But the fact is that many off these tanks are sooo humid to make it easy to grow certain tropical plants; it's called growing "soft." It works in tanks.

But I can assure you that many Acanthaceae, epiphytic cacti, peperomias, dischidias, aroids and bromeliads would appreciate some ventilation and/or daytime heat. On the hand, many epiphytic ferns, begonias, gesneriads, jewel orchids and pleurothallids want the humidity. 

Hmnnn... Could this be the difference between LOWLAND and CLOUD forests?!? 

The point is this: I am amazed that the logic used when considering animals is not appiled to plants. Any perusal of the stratification table of a forest will show that different plant taxa become more prevalent as one rises in altitude. 

A lot of montane plants are great for your pdf tanks. But they are not necessary for all tropical tanks, and actually somewhat useless for warmer, drier tanks. One really cannot grow Microgramma or Pleurothallis with Basilisks and/or Phyllo bicolor--unless one is willing to compromise the requirements of one or the other. (Btw, a plant taxa that seems to be underappreciated by you dart boyz is Ericaceae--lots of tropical blueberries to choose from, especially if you have a tall setup). 

To give an example: many people are disappointed when their jewel orchid which was fine for a few months starts to rot at the base. Why? Because jewel orchids are not true terrestrials, or "swamp" plants. They are "humus epiphytes"--meaning they grow their roots sideways in leaf litter an/or in rock fissures with humus. They want that easiest of combinations: A substrate that breathes and dries slightly but VERY humid air 

So do not expect to grow one side by side with an Anubias and expect both to do well. Do not expect to grow a Dracula (cool) above a Cryptocoryne (warm) and expect both to do well. 

#6 is just a long way of saying: It is a nice idea to pay attention to the welfare of plants as well. They are also living things. 

7) Do NOT overcrowd! If your tank with 1.2 anoles and 2.1 marbled treefrogs, or 1.2 Phelsuma and 2.2 Hyperolius is working--leave it alone. You do NOT need that "Oh but this would look so [email protected]#!$ cool" thing you saw at the show. 

You do not--and any experienced aquarist can tell you why...

8) Quarantine everything. If you can perform fecals, do so; I admit I do not on captive born animals (but I still quarantine).

9) Do not assume everyone is getting enough food. Monitor the feedings. If this is too much of a hassle, consider another experiment. Me, I handfeed everyone, for monitoring as much as fun. Of course, handfeeding is not really an option with fruitfly eaters. 

10) READ. Read people who have done this successfully, get some ideas, and ask questions. Philippe des Vosjoli, Bert Langerwerf, Rex Lee Searcy and I have all had success doing this (and I am probably the most cautious of the four). Go to zoos, and politely ask about their enclosures.

And always, err on the side of caution. It is only fair to your animals and your plants.


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## herpinjim (Dec 1, 2009)

I've always wanted to try a Madagascar themed tank with mantella, a small species of phelsuma and Uroplatus. I think this is feasible in a larger well planted tank with a small spot on one side for the phelsuma to bask.
Personally I think the most important thing is to use captive bred animals and to be diligent keepers.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

A civilized mixing thread?  









Seriously tho - I think the problems most people face is the lack of experience teamed with too small of a tank. I've seen a lot of, "How many X can fit in X sized tank?" threads. That's the wrong way to go about it, of course. I think if someone STARTS a tank with that state of mind - it's probably not going to work out.

On the other hand there are a bunch of well experienced members who devote a lot of time into researching the correct way to do this. No doubt a correctly assembled mixed tank can work - but I feel like saying that can encourage inexperienced keepers to try something that might be too tough - so you won't see me suggesting it too often.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

1) Thank you for the considerate replies. Yes, size matters--how many X and Y can I fit in my tank is a recipe for disaster.

Think of a fishtank: I have a 20 long with 2 gouramis, 4 barbs, 8 rasboras, 3 small loaches.

Fine. Then I feel a need to add more fish--and then the problems start. 

2) Mea culpa, my bad, my fault: I should have elaborated on my #5 and TOXINS. I once had a problem with Bombina in a mixed tank; now I only mix: Animals from the same place AS WELL AS animals of similar size. I would mix Bombinas with Cynops in a big aqua-terrarium. I would never mix Bombinas with Theloderma! 

The Madagascar tank sounds way cool! Get some Angraecoids and Stephanotis  Personally, I would "cheat" just a bit and try Sansevieria, as the geckos really utilize these.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Many of us who grow plants in our vivs and expect them to thrive are VERY conscious of selection, placement, etc.

It takes just as much research and experience with plants as it does with frogs to get things just right. And even then, trying to get things optimized for ALL organisms in the viv is a challenge, but to me the best part of the vivarium hobby. 

Remember that not everyone here is attempting the biotope, hence why many peole use jewel orchids and why I use bulbophyllums(and until I attempt a real biotope a bulbophyllum will be in every viv I build I bet) WHY? Because I love bulbos, and people love jewel orchids. In a nice viv with good drainage and lots of leaf litter, jewels thrive with no rot issues. In general we are attempting to make suitable habitats within our means and space restrictions, not recreating specific habitats. So if a plant can thrive in a viv and look exotic then most people see no issues with using it, and neither do I.

I think a multi species biotope tank would be fantastic if pulled off correctly, and I have dreams of just such a viv- I want a 150 gallon huallaga canyon biotope- trivittatus on the ground and imitators up top. I am already amassing a list of pleurothallids native to that region, and as the dream gets closer to reality I will have a more complete and diverse plant list. Im in no hurry to slap something complicated like this together, because I WANT IT TO THRIVE. I also have 25 years of herp keeping exp. and know that there are many things to be considered for it to work. I like your stratified aquarium comparison. Same microclimate definitely doesnt mean same niche, and so building your viv up with providing these niches is of utmost importance. feeder types as well become an important consideration, as well as basking needs etc. I would never put a lizard that wants a 90+degree basking site in a viv with frogs that like temps in the mid 70's....seems like a no brainer to me, but if you had a tall enough viv, perhaps someone could pull it off. 

I think many people just see brightly colored frogs as an alternative to the rainbow colred fish tanks at the pet store... OOH theres a yellow one, a blue one, wouldn't they all look great together hopping around on a big bed of jewel orchids?


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Thank you, Frog Party: Your point on jewels is well-taken. I am only trying to point that not all "tropical" plants are interchangeable. Many African and Asian aroids like a boggier substrate and more heat. One usually does not sees a jewel orchid growing with the Cryptocorynes! (Although, if see Ruth Kiew's boo, jewels do grow with begonias on stumps and moss-covered rocks).

I just like to try to recreate biotopes. Of course, if one has Phyllomedusines or lizards, one will key on different plant material.

Here is what I wrote on _Amphibian Forum_; it is not directed at PDF keepers: 

Because this is a *Beginners* forum, here are some animals that should never be mixed:

Any Ceratophrys
Budgetts' frog
Baby bull frogs
Pixie frogs
Baby Marine toads
Cuban tree frogs
Leptopelis sp. with smaller animals (esp the bigger females; here the sexes almost occupy different spots in the food chain. Big females have been known to eat small males!))
Kassina maculata with smaller animals 
Pickerel frogs (toxic)
Axolotls (I know people do it, but I fear for their gill filaments)
Tiger salamanders
Newts with anything that may try to eat them.

Here are some combos that can work in large enclosures:

--Spring peepers and red efts in a 20
--2.1 green tree frogs and 1.2 green anoles in a 29H
--1.1 Smilisca and 1.1 Corythophanes in a 55
--2.1 Dendrosophus marmorata and 1.2 Anolis roquet in a 29H or 30 (I know A. roquet ain't Brazilian, but it is VERY hard to get Brazilian anoles!)
--Kassina maculata with Leptopelis (I am more concerned about the female Leptopelis eating the males!) in a 30
--Mantellas and small Phelsuma in a 20 reg
--2.2 Hyperolius and 1.2 small Phelsuma in a 29H
--3 Bombinas and 3 Cynops pyrrhogaster in a 20long aqua-terrarium (C. pyrrhogaster is bigger and tougher than C. orientalis)
--1.1 Polypedates leucomystax and 1.1 Ptychozoon kuhlii in a 30

--And I have seen Polypedates dennysii (high) and Theloderma corticale (low) in a TALL enclosure at the Bronx Zoo


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

yep I would hate to see the results of mixing tiger slalmanders with anything smaller than them. Once again, if a person knew anything about their habits and capabilities, they wouldnt even dream about it, but to the uninformed it seems like a fine idea at the time...lol

I would like to share my first encounter with a mixed species FAIL

I had just come back from camping and hat caught a beautiful pacific gopher snake. I was young and had the habit of keeping exceptional herp finfs, and this was the first gopher that was even remotely tame Id ever caught.
Upon returning home I set it up in its own 20 gallon tank, standard snake fare, water bowl, aspen shavings, hide out of 1/2 clay pot... the basics.
The next day I cracked the tank moving something around in the room. Not wanting the snake to get cut, and having nowhere else to put it at the time, I put it in with my tank of jeweled swifts, I think its a sceloporous species. In my mind, I thought, gopher snakes eat warm blooded things.. no worries (I was 11) The next day..... no more lizards. Ive been very conscious of thinking things like this through ever since


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## JoeGecko (Dec 18, 2009)

I think there are SOME multi-species tanks we might all enjoy...

D. Hydei and PDF's of your choice...
Crickets and Lizards...
Rats/Mice and snakes/african frogs...

 All make for interesting interaction


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

You mean like, African Spiny mice and African grey treefrogs in a _really_ big enclosure?!?

Gee...


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

herpinjim said:


> I've always wanted to try a Madagascar themed tank with mantella, a small species of phelsuma and Uroplatus. I think this is feasible in a larger well planted tank with a small spot on one side for the phelsuma to bask.
> Personally I think the most important thing is to use captive bred animals and to be diligent keepers.



A Madagascar tank would be really cool, though I don't think that there are many rainforest plants from there that are available...


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

How about adult Bothrops or Bothriechis schlegelii with thumbnails? It would be accurate to some degree, and doable in a large enclosure providing the keeper has venomous experience. Same with bushmaster ans Cantils (Akistrodon).

The NAIB has a pretty good mixed tank, granted its pretty big. It has D. castaneoticus, Phyllomedusa bicolor, Oxybelis fulgidus, Pipas, and a few others. I don't know whether they are experiencing any problems thus far, but it was at least successful for a few months.


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

I hope more discussions in this vein occur as this is an area I will admit I have been very interested in since I began keeping herps and dendrobates 12 years ago. I feel like this is a natural next step that many hobbyist will take on the path of creating spaces and systems that are far more natural and accurate to our animals natural environments (moving from organic substrates and beds of pillow moss to clay based substrates and deep leaf litter layers for example). Many of the species combinations mentioned here I find really interesting and definitely will be talking more about them, however I think we have to be thinking about a biotope in a broader term than just a few animals that originate form the same geographic and areas living together under ordinary pdf conditions. Above all a biotope is a re creation of a HABITAT and I feel like if a specific place or locality is recreated than providing the niches and environmental parameters for the species that are naturally found in this environment comes much easier. A biotope tank dose not have to house more than one species of herp, a single species tank that has been designed and scaped to mimic that species locality with the correct plant species present and growing in the way they would in nature and in the correct densities, is most definitely a biotope, and one that can be re created much easier and on a much smaller level than those that require the extra space of a multi species exhibit. To this end I would love to see more pictures of specific localities that different species both dendrobate and non, are found in. I know I would be very interested in helping to create a database of pictures and accounts of different localities as well as lists of plant and animal species present at these sites. I think Josh has done an excellent job with his list of neotropical plants suitable for the vivarium and what country they are found in. I know I have looked at it often for ideas and inspiration. Some of my favorite displays are those done by Ben E and people at variance design, they created a Costa Rican lowland display with a buttress tree housing auratus and pumilio, as well as others. They have also done one recreating the rocky slopes in the forest 'islands' of surinam where azureus and Atelopus spumarius are found. 

I think the possible combinations that you all have posted are really awesome and many of which I feel like could work fairly easily. I like the idea of an azureus and Hyla marmorata and or Dendropsophus leucophyllatus surinam display. Also auratus,pumilio or vitattus with Hyla ebraccata in a Costa Rican or Panaminian tank. I think the triv and imitator tank that frogparty was talking about would also be awesome and I hope he can pull it off! I think small forest oriented anolis sp. Can also do well in large enclosures with treefrogs and pdfs, but the availability of such species is VERY slim. Also I am interested in exploring the idea of gonetodes and sphaerodactylus in mixed species enclosures as well. I have also been interesed Bufo typhonius, dose anyone have any information on this species. 

I think there have been some really great ideas so far in this thread and I would love to see it keep going!


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

ghettopieninja said:


> I. Above all a biotope is a re creation of a HABITAT and I feel like if a specific place or locality is recreated than providing the niches and environmental parameters for the species that are naturally found in this environment comes much easier... To this end I would love to see more pictures of specific localities that different species both dendrobate and non, are found in. I know I would be very interested in helping to create a database of pictures and accounts of different localities as well as lists of plant and animal species present at these sites


We're having some fun now, ain't we kids? Seriously, I too find this to be a productive and interesting exchange. GhettoPie is right on though, suggesting we should attempt to learn the actual habitiats of our charges. I have seen the AGS slideshow, "Gesneriads in Nature." Fascinating to see where/how these guys actually grow. And I want to take the time to thank Josh as well!

As I mentioned before, for us a term like "South America" is useless. We need to know if an organism is Andean or Amazon Basin, igapo, restinga or tepui. 

However, while I like the idea of recreating a biotope, I do accept the limits of availability. Many of the aroids we grow, for example, are Central American in origin. No, I will not keep that same aroid out of my "Brazilian" tank. I don't mind growing sansevieria with Phelsumas. And I ain't paying $400/pair for Brazilian anoles to go with D. armorata  For me, there is such a thing as "close enough." (But I still draw the line _before_ Macodes with Phyllobates 

P. bicolor with Pipas and pdfs? How big is this tank?!?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

lets see some biotope pics groundhog


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## MA70Snowman (May 18, 2010)

::Sorry for the necro, I thought this was too good of a thread, to not goto the abyss, and I'd like to see some more info::

I'm a noob to forum posting. Posted my First "test" terrarium w/ 0.0.2 Leucs. However I have alot of free time to read and have been over ALOT of this forum. I am genuinely interested in this topic, maybe not w/ PDFs. I've been playing with Viv's since i was 12.. that was 20 years ago.. I've come along way. most of it was just going my own, w/ VERY little INFORMED knowledge, as there was not alot of readily available information at hand back then. W/ the net and google and forums alot of it is out there. THere's alot of incorrect information and alot of information preached as gospel. 

I see alot of Stereotypes when it comes to this topic. "if someones asking they're a beginner." "if you're interested you don't know what you're doing." What about those of us that do know what we're doing, can take the time to learn, know about the majority of the areas but lack in the minor places. I'm not a plant person.. thats me. to me a fern is a fern is a fern, yes now i'm in PDF's and I'm learning a ton more about Plants and the finer points of things. I just think instead of this thead titled.. "Why NOT biotope.." which in itself is a pretty broad statement.. well if you're mixing a bearded dragon w/ a pdf.. thats one reason it won't work.. how about "What to consider in a biotope" ..... PUT the information out there. instead of preaching about all the short commings, that are just going to make inexperianced people attempt it on their own, making blatant mistakes, or mistakes/oversights that have already been done and learned. I've searched this site a couple times for "multi-species" (3 threads) "mixed species" (better results if you search posts and not titles) and I honestly want to say about 80% of them tell you why NOT to do it, or how to NOT do it. of course thats a part of the equation, but not the whole.

There have been some VERY excellent posts in this thread.. my favorite is "what to consider".. micro-organisms, plant needs, substrate, design, niche's, etc.. conversly the people that "i've done it sucessfully... but I won't tell you anything" either to protect the animals, or "spare" the person the troubles of failure. 

just my .02 cents on this topic. but this has been one of the better/best/mature threads i've seen on this topic.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

MA70Snowman said:


> I just think instead of this thead titled.. "Why NOT biotope.." which in itself is a pretty broad statement.. well if you're mixing a bearded dragon w/ a pdf.. thats one reason it won't work.. how about "What to consider in a biotope" ..... PUT the information out there. instead of preaching about all the short commings, that are just going to make inexperianced people attempt it on their own, making blatant mistakes, or mistakes/oversights that have already been done and learned. I've searched this site a couple times for "multi-species" (3 threads) "mixed species" (better results if you search posts and not titles) and I honestly want to say about 80% of them tell you why NOT to do it, or how to NOT do it. of course thats a part of the equation, but not the whole.


Exactly what the many recent threads on mixing have made me think. Rather than simply shouting 'DON'T DO IT' from the rooftops, give rational, calm, and mature responses advocating responsibility and giving rational guidelines for those interested in the subject.

A always picture a young child (the person asking a mixing question) asking their dad (the anti-mixing fanatics) if they can do something. He responds, "don't do it!" and the child, of course, asks, "why not?" If the dad just says, "because I said so!" the child is going to want to do it even more and will likely do it even without the permission or guidance of the dad. However, if the dad had instead given calm and mature guidance the child may have actually listened. Even better, if the dad had said, "yes, you can do that, but only if you do this, this, this, and that..." the child may actually attempt to do his best to meet the dad's requirements/advice.

If the great people of this forum would remain calm and give thought out and extended responses to the topic of mixing there would be a lot less drama and a lot more great information available for others. Also, if such information was readily available and openly given, those individuals who decide they will have a mixed tank no matter what may actually be informed enough to create an adequate habitat for their animals.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather a beginner try to build a mixed tank after reading a ton of information on the subject than a beginner try a mixed tank without the knowledge or advice of others.



MA70Snowman said:


> There have been some VERY excellent posts in this thread.. my favorite is "what to consider".. micro-organisms, plant needs, substrate, design, niche's, etc.. conversly the people that "i've done it sucessfully... but I won't tell you anything" either to protect the animals, or "spare" the person the troubles of failure.
> 
> just my .02 cents on this topic. but this has been one of the better/best/mature threads i've seen on this topic.


I think this is THE best thread on mixing currently available on this site.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

MrBiggs said:


> If the great people of this forum would remain calm and give thought out and extended responses to the topic of mixing there would be a lot less drama and a lot more great information available for others.


 The problem is, that those 'great people' have given out extended responses to the topic of mixing. Several times. Over the last 6 years. It's all there - just use the search function. Heck, a lot of it has even been 'stickyed' at the top of different sections for easy reference.
I think that is what really gets some people all worked up - new members wanting to be spoon fed answers. I know that when I became interested in darts, I researched well over a year and a half before getting some frogs. There is so much great information out there, much more easily available than in the past - use it! Then, come back and ask any questions you may have, and those 'great people' will be more than willing to answer, I guarantee it.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

But there are people on this fourm that See mixed tank and freak out and don't read the rest of the post like I asked for people to share there mixed tanks so I have more info for my tank and it gets moved I just wanted to get as much info as I can like I'm mixing Tricolor and leucs due to seeing it done successfully for years with breeding in tanks around the saw size as my tank and if someone posted a tank with both these frogs that had failed I would think twice


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I have to echo the above post and say....there is a TON of relevant material about biotopes, mixing ect ect already archived here. It's not fair for new people to ask for this information time and time again and then get upset when it's not posted to their liking or that they get "bad" response posts.

It seems like you are fishing for someone to back you up. That you mind is already firmly made up and you are looking for people to side with you, when in fact, there are really not that many people, outside of a zoological institution running ANY kind of mixed species enclosure or display.

You seem to think "they are out there" and I posit that they "really aren't". If I had to take a blind, wild stab at a number....I'd be suprised to learn that even 5% of amphibian keepers are keeping / actively, a mixed species vivarium.

If you really want help and not just "support", Let's start out with hard data and work through the parameters to get a better picture of what you are trying to accomplish, ok?

1. Please list a brief and summary explanation of your level of experience with herps and vivariums.

2. List the approx size enclosure you would like to attempt.

3. List the COMPLETE number of animals and species you would like to consider.

there are, of course, a lot more questions, but we can start here.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

I can't think of a mixing thread where rational, calm, and mature responses were not given at some point, and then promptly ignored. If you look back at all the mixing threads you will see some non-reasoning responses, but the majority of threads follow this basic outline:

Original Poster: "Can I mix/hybridize/etc my dart frogs successfully?"

Consensus of Opinions: "You should not because of reasons A, B, and C."

Original Poster: "Yes, but HOW can I mix/hybridize/etc my dart frogs successfully?"

You are asking for specific instructions on how to carry out a bad idea from people who are telling you it's a bad idea. What kinds of responses do you expect? I know most mixers or future mixers see themselves as fresh thinkers going against the stagnant tide of conventional thought, not just content to accept the status quo, but thinking outside the box...

But, sometimes a bad idea is just that...a bad idea.

*These comments are my opinions based on my observations on this and other discussion boards and in no way represent Dendroboard or the hobby in General. If any logic within seems sound to you, but is still not something you want to agree with then it is, of course, your right to pretend you didn't read it.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

vivbulider said:


> But there are people on this fourm that See mixed tank and freak out and don't read the rest of the post like I asked for people to share there mixed tanks so I have more info for my tank and it gets moved I just wanted to get as much info as I can like I'm mixing Tricolor and leucs due to seeing it done successfully for years with breeding in tanks around the saw size as my tank and if someone posted a tank with both these frogs that had failed I would think twice


Not to sound daft, but using periods and various other types of proper punctuation to seperate out complete thoughts will actually go a long way in this sort of medium/forum. If I have to spend an inordinate amount of time just trying to decipher what it is you're saying, I'm probably not going to give it much attention, let alone give it any sort of detailed response (i.e. if it wasn't worth your time to attempt to communicate effectively...it's probably not worth mine to do so, either).


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

1. I have kept darts for 6 years i'm in no way a pro but I know what i'm doing 
2. My tank is 4',2',4' or 240g and I'll have 40sq feet for the frogs without plants and the front 
3. I will have 4 leucs 4 tricolor and a pair thumbs still don't know what kind


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Also there will be 4sq feet per frog


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

ok....quick response...

one other important question:

What is your overall goal here? What are you trying to achieve?

1. Scientific information?
2. Personal Enjoyment?
3. Breeding experiment?
4. groundbreaking hobby / husbandry work?
5. other?

With this question......please go into greater detail, if you could.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

vivbulider said:


> Also there will be 4sq feet per frog


I think my comments in this thread are relevent here 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/52725-240g-tank-update-4.html#post470898

Ed


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

zBrinks said:


> The problem is, that those 'great people' have given out extended responses to the topic of mixing. Several times. Over the last 6 years. It's all there - just use the search function. Heck, a lot of it has even been 'stickyed' at the top of different sections for easy reference.
> I think that is what really gets some people all worked up - new members wanting to be spoon fed answers. I know that when I became interested in darts, I researched well over a year and a half before getting some frogs. There is so much great information out there, much more easily available than in the past - use it! Then, come back and ask any questions you may have, and those 'great people' will be more than willing to answer, I guarantee it.


While I don't argue that there isn't a lot of conversation on this subject, I will disagree with the idea that there is much in the way of mature responses to mixed tanks. In fact, I'd wager that 95% of threads discussing the topic get mostly responses of 'just don't do it', 'mixing is a bad idea', 'use the search function you moron', etc. VERY few threads, really only the first four pages of this thread actually, remain civil, mature, and intelligent. The vast majority devolve nearly instantly into a much of babbling morons typing whatever they feel like. (Generally, those inclined to ramble as such leave out punctuation, capitalization, and many of the other contructs of written language; for whatever reason)

Only one thread amidst the vast sea of threads that can be searched has good, mature discussion on the subject.

Why isn't there are comprehensive thread covering the in and outs, and good and bad of mixed tanks / multi-species tanks? Such a thread would be HUGELY valuable and would, I believe, do more to convince beginners that they aren't ready to jump into the deep end then all the endless bickering we get otherwise. People jump down the throat of anyone who asks a question and wonder why that makes people upset. This thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits-4.html gets linked a lot, but doesn't really fulfill the needs for information on the subject.

You can say that there is plenty of information archived that can be searched for, but I don't really think there is. There are a lot of conversations that can be found, but little that is of major value. We need a single, comprehensive, reference page for all things mixed tank related. That page should NOT be written by an 'anti', nor by someone heavily in favor. Rather, it should be written by a knowledgeable and experienced keeper who can remain completely unbiased.

Before you keep shouting 'search!', please do a search yourself. I'm not asking you to handfeed, I'm just asking that you really evaluate what is and is not actually available. There is not as much as you think.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MrBiggs said:


> This thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits-4.html gets linked a lot, but doesn't really fulfill the needs for information on the subject.
> .


So, in your opinion, what is lacking in that thread? 

Ed


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

MrBiggs said:


> VERY few threads, really only the first four pages of this thread actually, remain civil, mature, and intelligent.


Very true. Part of that is just due to the fact that internet anonymity seems to bring out the worst in people. Part of that is due to the fact that people just look for inaccurate statements to latch on to and hinge their debate on. They feel free to completely ignore any logical points that don't already fit into their agenda. You yourself appear to have done that here...



MrBiggs said:


> Why isn't there are comprehensive thread covering the in and outs, and good and bad of mixed tanks / multi-species tanks?


...so I will reiterate. You are asking HOW to accomplish a bad idea from people who, by and large, feel that it IS a bad idea. What kind of answers do you expect? It's not that most of us feel that we have the experience to pull this off, but the noobs should pay their dues first. I have over 20 continuous adult years of keeping herps, and I don't feel that I am qualified enough to mix species without an unacceptable risk to the animals. 

Since you ignored that, feel free to ignore this. I will ask you the question I always ask on these threads and have never yet gotten a response to.

WHY do you want a multi-species tank?

*I just reread this post and if it sounds unnecessarily aggressive to you, that was not my intention. This subject comes up a lot and usually the ones asking the questions have very selective hearing.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> ok....quick response...
> 
> one other important question:
> 
> ...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

You say you have @ (approx) 6 years experience with dart frogs? What species have you kept and have you any experience with F1 or F2 in any species?

and may I ask how old you are?


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Ed said:


> So, in your opinion, what is lacking in that thread?
> 
> Ed


Certainly not your experience or knowledge! What is lacking, to me, is relatively simple: the chosen format. That thread contains good information, but information that is buried and mixed in between other side conversations, questions, and some nonsense. What I believe should happen is, basically, taking all the relevant information in that thread and condensing it into one information reference page. No debate, no drama, just facts, evidence, descriptions, and unbiased information.

Ideally, I'd love to see some additional information such as what another poster said that he'd written in another forum concerning the things that should NEVER happen versus those choices which may simply be less than ideal.



Boondoggle said:


> Very true. Part of that is just due to the fact that internet anonymity seems to bring out the worst in people. Part of that is due to the fact that people just look for inaccurate statements to latch on to and hinge their debate on. They feel free to completely ignore any logical points that don't already fit into their agenda. You yourself appear to have done that here...


I have done no such thing. I have ignored no argument, whether it fits some agenda or not. However, considering I have no agenda except a desire to see civility and intelligence as posting requirements, I'm pretty sure that my 'agenda' isn't the one of which you speak. Apparently internet anonymity has brought out the worst in you as well.



Boondoggle said:


> ...so I will reiterate. You are asking HOW to accomplish a bad idea from people who, by and large, feel that it IS a bad idea. What kind of answers do you expect? It's not that most of us feel that we have the experience to pull this off, but the noobs should pay their dues first. I have over 20 continuous adult years of keeping herps, and I don't feel that I am qualified enough to mix species without an unacceptable risk to the animals.


Nope, I'm not asking that. Instead I'm asking that all the relevant information be collected into a master source that could be referenced to. Additionally, just because something is thought to be a bad idea does not always make it so.




Boondoggle said:


> ...Since you ignored that, feel free to ignore this. I will ask you the question I always ask on these threads and have never yet gotten a response to.
> 
> WHY do you want a multi-species tank?


Again, I've ignored nothing. But I will be happy to be the first to answer your, to be quite honest, completely irrelevant question: I'm not sure that I do want a mixed species tank. I am in the process of building a 60G corner bowfront vivarium and have toyed with the idea of mixing some orange teribilis with a mourning gecko. Why? Because I think both species are very interesting and I don't have the room for a second tank. Also, because I enjoy doing something just slightly different than average. That being said, I'm leaning towards not adding the gecko and instead simply keeping the teribilis on their own.

However, the why is not relevant to this debate. The question serves no function and accomplishes no purpose. 

Why did man choose to spend an incredible sum of money to get an astronaut to walk on the moon? To prove that we could? To assert our dominance over another terrestrial body? To see if it really was made of Swiss cheese? The why doesn't matter, the how to (or how NOT to) does.


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## MA70Snowman (May 18, 2010)

I had a bunch of you guys linked to respond, but it turned out to be too many. 

Yes there's a bunch of information out there.. not all of it credible. some sounds more like religious zeal then scientific fact. Now.. mixed/multispecies/biotopes ... was a new topic for me. I didn't know WHAT to search.. tried multi-species.. 3 threads. mixed species... If i searched threads for 'mixed species' i got so many worthless posts i went cross-eyed after 2 hrs of reading w/ no real fruit to show for it.. and when i searched titles nothing came up. I was lucky i stumbled on this gold mine, as the term biotope is new to me. 

I think the biggest issue, that i've seen, revolves around Darts, it seems that if you take darts out of the equation people start singing different tunes. of course this being a dendroboard.. for t he most part they are part of the equation. I 'accidentally' got into this hobby when i first set out to setup a mixed species vivarium. I stumbled across darts as a potential candidate (cause i'm a noob and didn't know better) and after researching the needs/wants of dendros, scratched them off the list... but by that time i was so fascinated w/ them. (i'm talking 4-5 months of casual reading about these guys) that i finally opted to take the dive and build a vivarium and get some leucs.. (love them by the way) 

my initial plan.. this was very rough concept and by no means included any solid info. 

was a 200 gal viv. recreating a small woodland pond. I wanted little fish, a turtle, some type of aquatic frog, tree frogs/gecko, and maybe a salamander. this was all VERY rough planning. the turtle got scratched.. they would eventually grow too big.. then i was looking for a frog.. stumbled on the dart.. and bam i'm here w/ 2 leucs and no multispecies viv. 

Boondoggle: I'll answer your question.. its not hard. "Why do I want a multi/mixed species"

my overall goal for the viv: 
1. Scientific experiment (well scientific instruction for my 3 kids and how a small eco system works, and the various life cycles of the animals/insects)
2. Personal enjoyment: would've looked nice, and I love challenges and I have a hobby for hobbies. 

one more thing boondoggle:

great posts.. informative, if not objective.. however one comment kinda rubbed wrong since I do consider myself a noob, when it comes to dendros.

"but the noobs should pay their dues first." -care to clarify that? That right there is Zeus denying mortals of fire. I won't expound anymore on that as I'm sure it was a poor choice of words on your part. Your posts are great and I like hearing what you say. and you don't come across as the type to have a God complex.


ED: that's an awesome post by the way.. that was the one I initially found.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> You say you have @ (approx) 6 years experience with dart frogs? What species have you kept and have you any experience with F1 or F2 in any species?
> 
> and may I ask how old you are?


I'm 16 and I'm not 100% sure how long I've had darts I can't remember when I got my first but it's around 6 years I think a little longer I've kept azureus leucs auratus tincs imitators tricolor and pumilio I don't know what generation they where


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

vivbulider said:


> I'm 16 and I'm not 100% sure how long I've had darts I can't remember when I got my first but it's around 6 years I think a little longer I've kept azureus leucs auratus tincs imitators tricolor and pumilio I don't know what generation they where


I thought you "sounded" young.....


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

MrBiggs said:


> Before you keep shouting 'search!', please do a search yourself. I'm not asking you to handfeed, I'm just asking that you really evaluate what is and is not actually available. There is not as much as you think.


 I really think that this thread: 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

answers pretty much anything you would need to know about mixing species, short of the individual species' needs, etc. By discussing what is needed for a successful mixed enclosure, it also points out why many mixed tanks fail - these needs are not met. It also points out the forethought and planning needed for a successful mixed tank. It gives a general 'floorplan' for a successful mixed vivarium. After that thread is reviewed, it makes it much easier to begin to plan out a mixed enclosure, if that's what you're really after. 
The mixed tank threads come up time after time on here. Yes, the threads tend to degrade in quality rather quickly - for some people, the difficulty of a successful mixed tank and the chance of failure are enough to dissuade them from attempting it. About one in 20 posts in such a thread could be called useful - but they are there. Just takes a bit of reading.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

MA70Snowman said:


> one more thing boondoggle:
> 
> great posts.. informative, if not objective.. however one comment kinda rubbed wrong since I do consider myself a noob, when it comes to dendros.
> 
> "but the noobs should pay their dues first." -care to clarify that? That right there is Zeus denying mortals of fire. I won't expound anymore on that as I'm sure it was a poor choice of words on your part. Your posts are great and I like hearing what you say. and you don't come across as the type to have a God complex.


YES! I definitely want to clarify that! I mis-worded that completely. What I was trying to say was the perception by fresh new thinkers like Mr. Biggs is:

The reason those with experience usually try to dissuade others from mixing is that they are sitting in their ivory frog towers telling the "noobs" that if they have to ask, then they aren't qualified. I was trying to point out that that's a misconception and experienced keepers (which I don't really consider myself) are NOT dissuading mixing based on elitism, but instead common sense. My wording made it seem like I was saying the exact opposite. Sorry, and thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

This is the last I'm going to say on the matter (I don't really have anything new to contribute to this post), but I could not disagree more with Mr. Biggs on whether or not "why?" is a relevant question. Mixing species can open up animals to unnecessary dangers (predation, pathogens, stress). I would like to think that someone who consciously did that at least understood their own motivations as to why they were willing to risk it. I'm not saying that there aren't legitimate reason. I'm saying that to do it "because it's there" isn't showing very much regard for our animals. 

Mr. Biggs, you have a PM.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Your terribilis will eat small mourning geckos. 
The reason a lot of people are passionate about people not mixing is that they`ve either experienced or heard horror stories about it. From one animal stressing the other to the point of death, from parasite transmission to the nutrient load being to much for the # of individuals in the tank, to hybrids, etc.. Most of the time that people want mixed tanks is because they want it all and they want it now and they don`t have enough room. Not to say that it can`t be successful, just that the average(most) individuals that want mixed tanks is because they want more than they should have(for the sake of the animals). It`s very frustrating to have to reiterate the same things to people that usually have already made up their mind about. They`re your frogs and you have the right to do as you want but don`t think that everyone here is just going to be civil while people make bad choices that they aren`t ready for.
To be READY for trying a mixed tank you have to either pack them tight enough that they can`t set up a territory or have enough space so that the animals have their own territory, which is much smaller than what they`d naturally have in the wild. Just like farming has made us able to pack in more tightly than we were ever meant to live, it causes problems. So, if people have success it`s usually at the expense of the animals, but they usually gloat over their "success" of which they don`t understand. Personally, I even used to raise auratus and azureus together and they seemed fine, although the azureus weren`t doing as well as they were on their own. Although the auratus were usually hiding, i sat and watched them w/out moving and noticed that, after about 5 minutes, the auratus would come out and pin down the azureus for no apparent reason while no one was thought to be around. People who do this for a living and are around all the time can keep an eye on things. People who work 8 hours a day may have problems going on they don`t know about. An animal, a wild animal, can look very good almost up till the end, or at least till it`s too late.


MrBiggs said:


> Certainly not your experience or knowledge! What is lacking, to me, is relatively simple: the chosen format. That thread contains good information, but information that is buried and mixed in between other side conversations, questions, and some nonsense. What I believe should happen is, basically, taking all the relevant information in that thread and condensing it into one information reference page. No debate, no drama, just facts, evidence, descriptions, and unbiased information.
> 
> Ideally, I'd love to see some additional information such as what another poster said that he'd written in another forum concerning the things that should NEVER happen versus those choices which may simply be less than ideal.
> 
> ...


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

zBrinks said:


> The mixed tank threads come up time after time on here. Yes, the threads tend to degrade in quality rather quickly - for some people, the difficulty of a successful mixed tank and the chance of failure are enough to dissuade them from attempting it. About one in 20 posts in such a thread could be called useful - but they are there. Just takes a bit of reading.


Sorry, but I still don't agree. As I stated previously, even that thread is a quagmire. Yes, the information Ed provides is useful and worthwhile, but attempting to read around the lindmines is an art in and of itself. It takes an incredible amount of time for what could, if the reference page I suggest was created, take 20-30 minutes maximum for an extremely thorough read.

I'm a brutally fast reader and a relatively good internet searcher, but I could find no more than two (this thread and that thread) threads worth reading through in entirety on the subject. I challenged before and I will challenge again; attempt to find some of those 'useful' threads you say exist. Seriously, try it. You'll find some, most of which are shallow and pedantic. You may find a few individual responses which are worthwhile (primarily Ed's or from a few other notables) but how is someone that is new to the board supposed to pick out those nuggets in between the crap? Especially when even the most active posters often foam at the mouth when the subject comes up? Few members do anything but make fools of themselves when the talk on the matter, even if they're on the 'right' side!



Boondoggle said:


> This is the last I'm going to say on the matter (I don't really have anything new to contribute to this post), but I could not disagree more with Mr. Biggs on whether or not "why?" is a relevant question. Mixing species can open up animals to unnecessary dangers (predation, pathogens, stress). I would like to think that someone who consciously did that at least understood their own motivations as to why they were willing to risk it. I'm not saying that there aren't legitimate reason. I'm saying that to do it "because it's there" isn't showing very much regard for our animals.


I believe you may have a fundamental flaw in logic at the base of your contempt on the matter. I'm going to help you to open your eyes just a touch wider by rephrasing your post with things that are equally true. Ready?

"*Keeping wild animals in captivity* can open up animals to unnecessary dangers (predation, pathogens, stress). I would like to think that someone who consciously did that at least understood their own motivations as to why they were willing to risk it. I'm not saying that there aren't legitimate reasons. I'm saying that to do it "because it's there" isn't showing very much regard for *the* animals."

Keeping a pet is essentially never ideal for the animal in question. We as humans choose to do so, generally and for the vast majority of the time, because we are selfish and WANT to. If you require explanation of why someone why a mixed species tank you should also ask that question EVERYTIME a beginner starts in the hobby. Make sure you question the motives of everyone who keeps an animal that would be better of in the wild.

I think you may have misjudged me as someone who is heavily in favor of mixed tanks. I'm not. In fact, I'm not even mostly in favor of mixed tanks. I'm in favor of logic and reason. I'm in favor of making an argument based on more than anti-mixing religious zeal. That's why you'll find me in threads concerning mixed tanks and hybridizing saying, 'wait, hold on a minute...' Few here have the clarity of mind, apparently, to give reasoned answers on those two subjects. It's odd really, because this board has some of the most experienced and knowledgeable people I've encountered in any of my various hobbies. In no other forum have a ever encountered the religious hatred I so often see on this board. (Well, except if you start talking about Chevys in a Ford forum; you might lose a limb on that one!) Fortunately this thread has basically stayed away from such proselytizing.

Sorry, but I just haven't seen what I would think would have been assembled in a forum of this type. Until I see it... I will continue posting on the subject!


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> Your terribilis will eat small mourning geckos.


Yeah, this was the general consensus I got as well when I asked people more experienced with both species, which is why I decided that it wasn't something I was going to attempt. O. terribilis will be plenty I do believe.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

MrBiggs said:


> Yeah, this was the general consensus I got as well when I asked people more experienced with both species, which is why I decided that it wasn't something I was going to attempt. O. terribilis will be plenty I do believe.


I just referenced this in another thread, here would be a good starting point regarding size, planting, species, etc. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37135-my-first-viv.html?highlight=leucs


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

How do I resist this?


MrBiggs said:


> I believe you may have a fundamental flaw in logic at the base of your contempt on the matter. I'm going to help you to open your eyes just a touch wider by rephrasing your post with things that are equally true. Ready?...


Wow...aren't you a peach.

You've corrected me on my accusation of asking the board to write a guide on mixing by pointing out that you were actually asking for the board to compile a guide on mixing. I can't believe someone so detail oriented could still not differentiate between keeping an animal because "I want to", and exposing an animal to unnecessary dangers "because I want to". Just because they are all shades of gray doesn't mean they are the same.

For instance, lets say the I don't like to keep lids on my tanks. I get on the board and I ask others what positive experiences they have had with lidless frog tanks. I get a few people who say it can be done, but the vast majority point out the unnecessary dangers. Am I really the crusader of original thought that you see yourself as if I refuse to believe that? Just for the record, this was hyperbole. You can waste your time picking apart an imperfect illustration, or you can look for correlation and take it for what it's worth. It's up to you.

In fact it's all up to you. You can keep what you want, with what you want. You can expose your animals the minimum amount of danger possible, or the maximum. Either way, I still maintain that it's asinine to expect a community that, on the whole (not 100%), frowns on something to compile a guide on that thing. Since you are such a capable reader (congratulations on that) why don't you compile and post the guide you are describing. You have probably read more on those posts than most of us. I'm sure it would be well received.

And for the record, there is logic, and there is "debate technique". You have confused the two.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

MrBiggs said:


> I challenged before and I will challenge again; attempt to find some of those 'useful' threads you say exist. Seriously, try it. You'll find some,* most of which are shallow and pedantic*. You may find a few individual responses which are worthwhile (primarily Ed's or from a few other notables).


This is a notably insulting statement (to most all of us except Ed, I guess ). 



MrBiggs said:


> but how is someone that is new to the board supposed to pick out those nuggets in between *the crap*? Especially when even the most active posters often foam at the mouth when the subject comes up?* Few members do anything but make fools of themselves* when the talk on the matter, even if they're on the 'right' side!


Way to endear yourself to the forum 

Since you are protraying yourself as a "better", picking apart other members responses and scolding.......why don't you let us know your pedegree, CV and experience with herps? For instance, what frogs you keep and your husbandry success with same.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

You seem to have a lot of time on your hands and know exactly what should be cut out and what should be left in. I have an idea, since your most interested in this and seem to criticize the most and are a brutally fast reader, you should cut and paste all the quotes you think relevant and make your own post on mixing that would be the be all and end all of it.



MrBiggs said:


> Sorry, but I still don't agree. As I stated previously, even that thread is a quagmire. Yes, the information Ed provides is useful and worthwhile, but attempting to read around the lindmines is an art in and of itself. It takes an incredible amount of time for what could, if the reference page I suggest was created, take 20-30 minutes maximum for an extremely thorough read.
> 
> I'm a brutally fast reader and a relatively good internet searcher, but I could find no more than two (this thread and that thread) threads worth reading through in entirety on the subject. I challenged before and I will challenge again; attempt to find some of those 'useful' threads you say exist. Seriously, try it. You'll find some, most of which are shallow and pedantic. You may find a few individual responses which are worthwhile (primarily Ed's or from a few other notables) but how is someone that is new to the board supposed to pick out those nuggets in between the crap? Especially when even the most active posters often foam at the mouth when the subject comes up? Few members do anything but make fools of themselves when the talk on the matter, even if they're on the 'right' side!
> 
> ...


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## MA70Snowman (May 18, 2010)

Mr. Biggs, 

instead of trying to get the muel to drink the water.. why not drink the water yourself. In other words, take the available threads start cyphering through them, compile them. enough information and you're bound to get contradicting pieces of information, at that point you should have enough information that we can pose THOSE questions to the Guru's for clarifications. Ultimately I think I've come to the conclusion that a topic such as this can not be contained in one thread or one forum. If we're talking about just mixing PDF's w/ other PDFs.. okay, this is the right place.. but a true biotope (the definition of true is up to you) might not be well contained here as you're looking at VEry different Species/animals.. I wouldn't try and find the care/needs/breeding habbits of a bearded Dragon here.. it would be much easier on another forum. In my short time here.. and w/ the amount i've been able to see. Unless you are no kidding compiling information to be used in a one-stop shop, I honestly think this is a closed topic.. for the mean time. 

phil, you got a ton of posts that I can see (by your post count) i'm going to assume that not even 40% of them are worthless , however ..



Philsuma said:


> I thought you "sounded" young.....


how was that even relevant? would ommiting that comment have done anything different? and the care of ONE animal (F1/F2) has nothing to do with the care and meeting the needs of multiple animals. It is that condescending attitude and tone, that a) start flamewars and the petty bickering as we start seeing who's ****is bigger b) it discredits your valid statements as nothing more then elitist nonsense. a 40 year old man can "sound" young when discussing topics he's not familiar w/, and vice versa. age is not relevant.. experiance is.


Frogfarm,

looks like we came to the same deduction.. must mean we're onto something.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

MA70Snowman said:


> Mr. Biggs,
> 
> how was that even relevant? would ommiting that comment have done anything different? and the care of ONE animal (F1/F2) has nothing to do with the care and meeting the needs of multiple animals. It is that condescending attitude and tone, that a) start flamewars and the petty bickering as we start seeing who's ****is bigger b) it discredits your valid statements as nothing more then elitist nonsense. a 40 year old man can "sound" young when discussing topics he's not familiar w/, and vice versa. age is not relevant.. experiance is.


Age is relevant to EVERYTHING in life - especially this debate and definately in regards to someone wanting to set up a mixed species enclosure of the type and design that he indicated.

At age 16, he is still a child and as such, I now have to consider that when framing my responses. He lacks experience with these animals to say nothing of actual "world" experience.

We ALL want to support this hobby and see that everyone succeeds. There is only the occasional poster that states "don't keep any frogs in glass boxes whatsoever, it's inhumane'.

No one in this thread came close to that. We can all only give you our collective experience, advice and sincere wishes that you succeed and your animals prosper. You either choose to take it or not. There is no wheel to be re-invented. There is no ghost in the machine.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Unless you're doing it the 100% right way, which most people aren't capabale of, because of either lack of experience, resources, space, medical knowledge, etc, the question you're asking is kind of "how can you help me harm these animals" whether that's your intention or not, so there's not much people can say to support it too much


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## merk1_99 (Apr 19, 2009)

Phil and others,
Age should not be a factor in deciding ones ability in this hobby or even be asked. Seriously I read a lot of worthless posts from "old" people. Being in my mid-30's doesn't make me more qualified than the the 17-18 yr old down the street. I am involved in PDFs, caudates, and marine tanks. Some of the brightest minds on these subjects are the younger generation. I can send you some links to different forum/threads where hobbyists 10-15 yrs younger(some even younger than that) than me are leading the charge in their respective hobby. Anyways sorry to have digressed from the original thread.


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## MA70Snowman (May 18, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Age is relevant to EVERYTHING in life - especially this debate and definately in regards to someone wanting to set up a mixed species enclosure of the type and design that he indicated.
> 
> *At age 16, he is still a child and as such, I now have to consider that when framing my responses. He lacks experience with these animals to say nothing of actual "world" experience*.


The only thing age matters in is, Driving, smoking/voting, drinking, insurance discounts, and social security. 

I've been in the USMC for 12 years, I've been to OIF, OEF, Afghanistan. I think I am very qualified to say that age is irrelevant. I have seen 17 yr/old kids, straight out of boot camp, in combat take charge of Marines MUCH older then them, and Lead them through a sucessful fire fight. I have seen the same 30/40 y/o make piss poor and mis-informed decisions. 

I think your comment was very ignorant and very insulting to our younger board members, are you honestly trying to say he lacks the Mental capability to comprehend what is entailed in these topics? or does he lack the background knowledge, which relates to experiance. Or maybe you should have asked if he was mentally handicapped as well. 

I treat my privates the same as my Staff Sgts, I just expect different things from each. 

How old are you phil? becaues you "sound" very niave making such comments .I honestly place you early 20's.. 21-22 young enough to feel old, old enough to think your "life experiances" mean more then others.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Boondoggle said:


> You've corrected me on my accusation of asking the board to write a guide on mixing by pointing out that you were actually asking for the board to compile a guide on mixing. I can't believe someone so detail oriented could still not differentiate between keeping an animal because "I want to", and exposing an animal to unnecessary dangers "because I want to". Just because they are all shades of gray doesn't mean they are the same.


As I covered in PM, but which you do not reference, virtually all people who keep wild animals for personal desire do so because "I want to". It's selfish for basically all of us. Whether that's one species in one tank or many species in one tank.



Boondoggle said:


> For instance, lets say the I don't like to keep lids on my tanks. I get on the board and I ask others what positive experiences they have had with lidless frog tanks. I get a few people who say it can be done, but the vast majority point out the unnecessary dangers. Am I really the crusader of original thought that you see yourself as if I refuse to believe that? Just for the record, this was hyperbole. You can waste your time picking apart an imperfect illustration, or you can look for correlation and take it for what it's worth. It's up to you.


Sorry, but this simply isn't even close enough to 'look for correlation', because there is none. There are ZERO successful examples of keeping darts in that situation, there ARE successful mixed tanks. (Nearly all of which are kept my very knowledgeable individuals with years of experience and adequate space/design.)



Boondoggle said:


> In fact it's all up to you. You can keep what you want, with what you want. You can expose your animals the minimum amount of danger possible, or the maximum. Either way, I still maintain that it's asinine to expect a community that, on the whole (not 100%), frowns on something to compile a guide on that thing. Since you are such a capable reader (congratulations on that) why don't you compile and post the guide you are describing. You have probably read more on those posts than most of us. I'm sure it would be well received.





frogfarm said:


> You seem to have a lot of time on your hands and know exactly what should be cut out and what should be left in. I have an idea, since your most interested in this and seem to criticize the most and are a brutally fast reader, you should cut and paste all the quotes you think relevant and make your own post on mixing that would be the be all and end all of it.





MA70Snowman said:


> Instead of trying to get the muel to drink the water.. why not drink the water yourself. In other words, take the available threads start cyphering through them, compile them. enough information and you're bound to get contradicting pieces of information, at that point you should have enough information that we can pose THOSE questions to the Guru's for clarifications.


In fact, I have already begun to do so. I've read through the main mixing threads (seriously, all of the main ones) as well as all 86 pages of the Large Vivarium Contruction thread (which is, somewhat, a mixed tank thread) this morning. I've also compiled, re-edited for grammar and clarity, and assembled the original multispecies thread that Ed posted years ago. Once I have his permission I will begin to assemble other individual valuable posts from various threads here.



Philsuma said:


> Since you are protraying yourself as a "better", picking apart other members responses and scolding.......why don't you let us know your pedegree, CV and experience with herps? For instance, what frogs you keep and your husbandry success with same.


I have never stated, implied, or referenced my knowledge on the subject or experience therein. In fact, I have consistenly backed those individuals who DO have knowledge on the matter. My experience is not relevant to my desire to see a real reference page on this matter. Nonetheless, I have been keeps herps of all kinds for 9 years. Started with cornsnakes and boas before moving on to geckos and dart frogs for the last 4 years. Zero deaths and only moved animals out because of severe and unfortunate changes to my ability to keep them responsibly (changed homes). I've never owned a mixed tank and don't know that I ever will.

Also, to be very clear: I am NOT stating that the majority of posts here or anywhere else are worthless. I'm NOT saying that most people here are morons or any other derogatory classification. All I'm saying is that most mixed threads tend to devolve into only mildly controlled chaos where even the most veteran posters spout off unnecessarily. Philsuma, you've been an active voice in many of those threads and have been generally very reasonable and rational. (Although, the comment concerning age above is not as rationale. Is a 20 year old with 5 years experience better than a 50 year old with 1 year? Not to me. Age does matter... but it's not the deciding factor.)

I honestly don't mean to rile too many feathers, I just don't like what I've seen on the subject.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Philsuma, I believe, is as old as dirt (I'm allowed to say this as I think I am older). 

Back OT. I would love a gigantic tank with a variety of PDF species and other animals. However, I know this is something that's way beyond me and will defer to the ZOOs to provide these sorts of habitats for me to enjoy.


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## carbonetc (Oct 13, 2008)

I have yet to see anything amounting to a "flamewar" on this forum in the time I've been here. Have you guys seen the rest of the internet? This place is Mr. Roger's Neighborhood in comparison. Frankly I'm heartened to see that there are rare occasions where people will allow themselves to show some teeth here, and I hope some skins will thicken as a result (during the brief window before the thread is locked).

Passionate disagreement is a feature in a forum, not a bug. This thread is worth 100 "that's the best viv I've ever seen and I wouldn't change a thing" threads, if you ask me.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

MA70Snowman said:


> The only thing age matters in is, Driving, smoking/voting, drinking, insurance discounts, and social security.
> 
> I've been in the USMC for 12 years, I've been to OIF, OEF, Afghanistan. I think I am very qualified to say that age is irrelevant. I have seen 17 yr/old kids, straight out of boot camp, in combat take charge of Marines MUCH older then them, and Lead them through a sucessful fire fight. I have seen the same 30/40 y/o make piss poor and mis-informed decisions.
> 
> ...


Just from the discussions I've had with Phil on this board, I think that you are taking the age question in way that he did not mean it. I've seen Phil help/argue/discuss topics with posters of all ages and I've never know him to dismiss anyone based on age.

I in NO way want to disparage the comments you made on the capability of young men you have had contact with in the past (sincerely), but I think that it was a fair question. Age is experience, and experience changes us. We may be very capable people at a young age, but if our judgment does not improve with time then something is wrong. I'm not the same person with the same opinions at 39 as I was at 16. I doubt you are the same person you were at 16...Or Phil at 42 (that's a guess). 

I'm not speaking for Phil here...but when I like to know peoples age on a forum. If it's what I would consider young, I don't use it to Lord over them. I usually cut them some slack over it because I know (especially at 16 or younger) they are still forming opinions.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i have to agree somewhat with both sides on this one. i believe age is relevant in the context of these topics. teenage americans tend to do what they want without regard to experienced suggestions or even common sense. its not bad, rather a step in learning responsibility and growing up. conversely it doesnt mean that they lack any intelligence. 

i started keeping darts and saltwater tanks at 13. did i make bad choices then? yes, but there wasnt the information sharing infrastructure there is today like dendroboard. in the end i think it has to do with a need for teenagers to feel that they are capable, the need to believe that they CAN do whatever they feel they should be able to as a new and capable young adult.

unfortunately this comes through with mixing as a sort of challenge to the younger audience, a need for self assurance (if its only for experts i can try it and if i can do it then i am a capable person, sort of mentality)

james


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

MA70Snowman said:


> I have seen 17 yr/old kids, straight out of boot camp, in combat take charge of Marines MUCH older then them, and Lead them through a sucessful fire fight.


There is a world of difference between a 17 year old Marine and a 16 year old high school kid.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Tony said:


> There is a world of difference between a 17 year old Marine and a 16 year old high school kid.


Isn't that the truth! That being said, people of all ages can give crappy advice. The quality of a post or piece of advice should be judged by its content, not simply by the age of the person posting it.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

MrBiggs said:


> As I covered in PM, but which you do not reference, virtually all people who keep wild animals for personal desire do so because "I want to". It's selfish for basically all of us. Whether that's one species in one tank or many species in one tank
> 
> ...Sorry, but this simply isn't even close enough to 'look for correlation', because there is none. There are ZERO successful examples of keeping darts in that situation, there ARE successful mixed tanks. (Nearly all of which are kept my very knowledgeable individuals with years of experience and adequate space/design.)


Your first debate technique is lumping, where you refuse to see that any difference in "shades of gray", "gray" being risk to the animal based on "I want to"...the ridiculous endpoint being a lidless tank. 

You second debate technique is the refusal to see any correlation between "shades of gray" being risk to the animals...the ridiculous endpoint being a lidless tank.

Flipped and Flopped. Bravo.

Out of respect I will honor your request to no longer PM you. I took it there in the first place because usually people are more civil without an audience. I guess that's not true with us. Please let me respond, though and apologize if, as you have said, I "come off as a know-it-all that can't stand people disagreeing with me." I don't know it all. I don't consider myself an expert in this field at all. I do listen to the experts though. Also, you are crediting me with a level of emotion over this issue that honestly isn't there. I can see, especially from my first post, how I could have given that impression.

That being said, please re-read your posts and tell me how a person "comes off" who reopens a thread based on the first question that all beginners have, and proceeds to do more experienced keepers of "clearing misconceptions up for them"? As I said in the PM, you have confused condescension with correctness.

As far as your PM assertion that I'm incorrect in stating that multi-species enclosures offer more risk to the animal than single species enclosure. That is WHY they are trickier. That's WHY it's not recommended for beginners. That's WHY its not worth it to many of us. Even proponents with positive experience in mixing will not make the statement you made to me. It is, without a doubt, another layer of complexity that does not benefit the animal, and can represent a danger...bottom line.

If that level of risk is worth it to you, go for it. If not, don't. It seems unnecessary to me. All the correct punctuation, redundant logic circles, and excess verbiage in the world wont change that.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

MrBiggs said:


> Sorry, but this simply isn't even close enough to 'look for correlation', because there is none. There are ZERO successful examples of keeping darts in that situation, there ARE successful mixed tanks. (Nearly all of which are kept my very knowledgeable individuals with years of experience and adequate space/design.)


There actually are successful enclosures with no lid - designed for UVB exposure - there is a wide "lip" running around the edges and in towards the center of those tanks though (almost like a hole on top) to prevent escapes and the humidity is controlled by other means


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is value in the age argument from both sides but what I haven't seen from either side is that you can get into problems when either side doesn't have an open mind. The more experienced person may not be open to newer ideas due to the experience and the less experienced may not be open to older ideas due to ignorance. This occurs in many different ways with many different things and both are hard to deal with in a productive manner. 

With respect to flame wars.. they tend to be a little less heated here than elsewhere as they are not tolerated here and people get sat in a corner for some period of time until they learn thier lesson. 

I think the thread is digressing into areas where there is not a lot of value in the discussion and getting far afield (and this is coming from one who has taken topics far afield on occasion). 

That said, I suggest we concentrate on more productive items.. 

Ed


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## MA70Snowman (May 18, 2010)

I'll put the age issue to rest. Age=stereotype, same as skin color, sexuality. There are those that meet the stereotype but there's an equal amount that do not meet it. I feel experiance/knowledge/actions should "age" you, specially on forums. That aside. the past two pages have brought very little in the form of helpful/useful posts aside from decerning who merits the "opportunity" to undertake such a project. I thnk this topic has derailed from "Why not biotope" or the reason for me necroing the thread "What to consider in a biotope" Mr.Biggs, defend yourself not with idle chat, but w/ actions, I would love to see you compile the information that you've aquired into a well thought out, and planned structured format. Maybe even a word doc attached to a thread, that with approval, could be stickied. I would say please include, but not limited to. a)the dangers/risks b)reasons why one should be dissuaded c)What to consider d)Proper planning/research of the species, e)support of said species, enviroment, health etc. 

alot of those could be assisted by some of the experianced members. Thats what I was getting at by necroing, thank you to those who have contributed thus far.

EDIT: Ed beat me to some of my points, flamewars.. I have not seen ANY real ones on this forum one reason I like this place, and post as openly as I do, knowing thoughts/ideas will be looked at w/ critical thinking vs close-minded thinking. 

ED, for any of those wishing to make a "inclusive multi/mixed/biotope write up" would you be willing to give permission to take exceprts, with due credit from your thread? as you seem IMO to have provided the MOST amount/benificial information available.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MA70Snowman said:


> ED, for any of those wishing to make a "inclusive multi/mixed/biotope write up" would you be willing to give permission to take exceprts, with due credit from your thread? as you seem IMO to have provided the MOST amount/benificial information available.


I have already been asked for permission and I don't have a problem with it. 

Ed


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Boondoggle said:


> If that level of risk is worth it to you, go for it. If not, don't. It seems unnecessary to me. All the correct punctuation, redundant logic circles, and excess verbiage in the world wont change that.


We will have to agree to disagree, although I honestly do not believe that we are nearly as far apart in our standpoints as this thread and our PM's may make it seem like we are. I wish no hard feelings, and although I disagree with things you've posted here, I have found some excellent responses that you've given in other threads. Thank you for your input regardless. Either way, let's let this thread get back to the excellent thread it started out as.



MA70Snowman said:


> Ed, for any of those wishing to make a "inclusive multi/mixed/biotope write up" would you be willing to give permission to take exceprts, with due credit from your thread? as you seem IMO to have provided the MOST amount/benificial information available.


I have already begun an extensive reference page doing just that, and Ed has given me permission to repost much of his original information. I am advancing rapidly on this project and hope that it will be posted within the next week at maximum. 

ATTENTION: I need to converse with a mod who has the power to both sticky a page as well as make deletions. If you have such authority and interest in the topic, please PM me. Thank you.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Ok, I think the 'age' thing has been talked out enough that both sides understand each other - if you feel the need to discuss it any further, please do so via PM.

As everyone can see, discussions on mixed tanks, and anything that people feel passionate about, tend to get pretty heated rather quickly. Please make sure to not let things get too personal.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

MA70Snowman said:


> The only thing age matters in is, Driving, smoking/voting, drinking, insurance discounts, and social security.
> 
> I've been in the USMC for 12 years, I've been to OIF, OEF, Afghanistan. I think I am very qualified to say that age is irrelevant. I have seen 17 yr/old kids, straight out of boot camp, in combat take charge of Marines MUCH older then them, and Lead them through a sucessful fire fight. I have seen the same 30/40 y/o make piss poor and mis-informed decisions.


ok. We are talking about the ability to undertake an advanced exotic animal programme - to start a large mixed species vivarium in one's home with a presumably small budget and have a very young person with not a lot of experience oversee it. Correct?

With that acknowledged, you're really gonna have to try again to make any sort of reasonable analogy to that hobby undertaking and overseas combat or even peacetime military service. Dart frog husbandry and boot camp and their effect on either is reaching, confusing and unnessasary to this whole debate.




MA70Snowman said:


> I think your comment was very ignorant and very insulting to our younger board members, are you honestly trying to say he lacks the Mental capability to comprehend what is entailed in these topics? or does he lack the background knowledge, which relates to experiance. Or maybe you should have asked if he was mentally handicapped as well.


None of the above really. I was meerly trying to get a better idea of the experience of the poster as a reference. This can be done in two ways. Asking for relevant experience- and this is usually followed up with a time element, such as " I've been working with herps for X amount of years and Dendrobatids for the last X years. I have been breeding Azureus ect ect, for X years. This establishes a working foundation with which we can resume our conversation or in this case, debate. Additionally, we can ask directly how old someone is. I really don't think that this question is a social faux pas. Do you? It's relevant in any discussion to get a social or even academic baseline. [/QUOTE]



MA70Snowman said:


> I treat my privates the same as my Staff Sgts, I just expect different things from each.


Again....we really shouldn't muddy the waters with any sort of military references but I guess if I can't convince you that a pillar element of social discourse such as age, being relevant, I probably have no hope of convincing you that any sort of military reference here is irrelevant as well as confusing.



MA70Snowman said:


> How old are you phil? becaues you "sound" very niave making such comments .I honestly place you early 20's.. 21-22 young enough to feel old, old enough to think your "life experiances" mean more then others.


Ask and you shall receive. I'm 42. You can certainly judge me by my posting here or on 6 other dart frog forums. Ask anyone here and they'll (hopefully) tell you that the amount of time and energy I put into helping people and advancing this hobby is substantial.

The undisputed fact of the matter is that the poster is a very young person with limited experience. That fact is in no way shape or form a negative connotation.I hope no one else here but you saw fit to extrapolate that fact into some sort of convoluted slight.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

MA70Snowman said:


> The only thing age matters in is, Driving, smoking/voting, drinking, insurance discounts, and social security.
> 
> I've been in the USMC for 12 years, I've been to OIF, OEF, Afghanistan. I think I am very qualified to say that age is irrelevant. I have seen 17 yr/old kids, straight out of boot camp, in combat take charge of Marines MUCH older then them, and Lead them through a sucessful fire fight. I have seen the same 30/40 y/o make piss poor and mis-informed decisions.
> 
> ...


My turn, Are you just trying to start a fight? I see nothing but a defence in your posts followed by and attack. Do a search on who you wish and the level of respect will show. A simple question by what I think most would see as a beginner has blew up once again. Then do a search on this subject and maybe you would know what to and what not to say? 
I bet there are young solierrs taking control of many situations but get it right, There are just as many young ones screwing up and getting themselves or others killed. Thats fact, My family ties to the military go very deep and if I didn't grow up in the house of a hand to hand combat instructor which pushed me into the worst case of authority issue many have seen I may well have joined and I would give you legions of first and last names of both age brackets that screwed up. I still can if you like.
Either bail out on this topic or peacefully speak your opinion on it and try to help not go after the posters.
Michael


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Sorry Zach, Didnt catch your post.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

MrBiggs said:


> We will have to agree to disagree, although I honestly do not believe that we are nearly as far apart in our standpoints as this thread and our PM's may make it seem like we are. I wish no hard feelings, and although I disagree with things you've posted here, I have found some excellent responses that you've given in other threads. Thank you for your input regardless. Either way, let's let this thread get back to the excellent thread it started out as.


Fair enough, Mr. Biggs. That's a classy way to end things and I'm glad to have the opportunity to end things on that note. Good luck on the guide. I feel mixing should be generally dissuaded personally, but if the guide is accurate and truthful, then as far as I'm concerned it's a good thing.

Have fun with the Terribs. You're going to love them. They have great personalities (or whatever frogs have that seem like personalities)

P.S. I had no idea people had actually tried lidless designs...wow.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Boondoggle said:


> P.S. I had no idea people had actually tried lidless designs...wow.


Yeah, that threw me off too; made me re-think my entire response. So much for great logic. Learn something new everyday though! Also, you have a PM concerning the reference page.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Sorry zach cause I know the age was pretty much beaten to death but I took my time catching up on the last 2 pages at the same time playing CoD....anyway

I agreed with the age vs expierence thing and I can happily say I'm 16...

Carry On


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Boondoggle said:


> P.S. I had no idea people had actually tried lidless designs...wow.


Its been around for awhile now. I've toyed with the idea, but haven't had a chance to work out how I want to set it up. 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah Ed is the one who actually told me about it a while ago privately when we were talking about UVB


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Ed said:


> Its been around for awhile now. I've toyed with the idea, but haven't had a chance to work out how I want to set it up.
> 
> Ed


Pretty interesting. Seems like the tolerances would be pretty tight. I can imagine my Cobalts lumbering around a lidless, rimmed tank and never looking up. I suspect my pepperi could fire their little bodies through any perceptible gap in a 6 ft tall tank.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

HunterB said:


> Sorry zach cause I know the age was pretty much beaten to death but I took my time catching up on the last 2 pages at the same time playing CoD....anyway
> 
> I agreed with the age vs expierence thing and I can happily say I'm 16...
> 
> Carry On


See, now that surprises me. I'm not sure if I'm proving my point, or the opposite, but I assumed you were older.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Boondoggle said:


> Pretty interesting. Seems like the tolerances would be pretty tight. I can imagine my Cobalts lumbering around a lidless, rimmed tank and never looking up. I suspect my pepperi could fire their little bodies through any perceptible gap in a 6 ft tall tank.


The tolerance doesn't have to be tight as you have to simply set up the enclosure tall enough that a straight up jump cannot get out. There is a lip around the outside of the enclosure that prevents the frogs from being able to scale the sides up and out. With the Khansi spray toads a 2-3 inch lip extending inwards prevents the toads from being able to get up and out. 

Ed


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## MA70Snowman (May 18, 2010)

::EDIT:: The below is a very delayed response that was in typing for an extended type, discount/disregard as necessary. 
and an LOL at HunterB



poison beauties said:


> I see nothing but a defence in your posts followed by and attack.


You're right thats exactly what it was. a personal defense.. no. a Personal attack as well.. no. a defense and attack on the age stereotype. Nothing personal at phil as I mentioned earlier his post count doesn't reflect a unbenificial member (a troll hitting 4000 posts would've been kicked/banned/barred or shunned a long time ago)



poison beauties said:


> Then do a search on this subject and maybe you would know what to and what not to say?


Thats where the "lack" of or "jumble" of information comes into play. 



poison beauties said:


> I bet there are young solierrs taking control of many situations but get it right, There are just as many young ones screwing up and getting themselves or others killed.


I did already mention and acknowledge the truth of that. 



poison beauties said:


> Either bail out on this topic or peacefully speak your opinion on it and try to help not go after the posters.
> Michael


Bail.. I don't think so. This is a good topic and one I personally hope reaps good rewards if Mr. Biggs follows through. I feel it has been pretty peacful al through this. unfortunatly Internet does not convey tones, or intents. Its what I call mis-interpretation and is perfectly understandable. I merely was defending the age=ignorance relation. The statement could have been left at "How many x years do you have w/ Y animals" and that would have just as easily and more accurately ascertained the experiance level of X individual. 

Phil, I will personally appologize for singling you out, 



MA70Snowman said:


> I think your comment was very ignorant and very insulting to our younger board members, are you honestly trying to say he lacks the Mental capability to comprehend what is entailed in these topics? or does he lack the background knowledge, which relates to experiance. Or maybe you should have asked if he was mentally handicapped as well.


I will stand by this statement, because if someone associated my age to my IQ, or ability to grasp certain concepts (and for civility can we agree to discount YOUNG children) I would feel personally insulted. If you would like to agree to disagree, I can easily shake your hand as a gentleman and call it a day. 



MA70Snowman said:


> How old are you phil? becaues you "sound" very niave making such comments .I honestly place you early 20's.. 21-22 young enough to feel old, old enough to think your "life experiances" mean more then others.


This was a blatant assault, of which caught up in the moment I feel was out of line and could have been relayed better. Yes I have read other posts and seen a pleathora of them from you, and your experiance far exceeds that of the GP (General Populace) and this community I can say has honestly thrived because of Your knowledge and those like you. However I do feel that the tone of the question was condescending and irrelevant. neither here nor there now. 


ON TOPIC: a while back I posted my "Initial" intents for a multi-species viv (not multi dart) What Microfauna should one be concerned about? both the beneficial type and the harmful type. would isopods and springtails suffice for cleanup and decomposition?

Sidetopic: How do you maintain/control humidity in a Lidless design? I have that killer cat so won't even attempt just curious. I'm sure the humidity levels would vary from top to bottom. Are there any benifits to such a design?


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Ed said:


> The tolerance doesn't have to be tight as you have to simply set up the enclosure tall enough that a straight up jump cannot get out. There is a lip around the outside of the enclosure that prevents the frogs from being able to scale the sides up and out. With the Khansi spray toads a 2-3 inch lip extending inwards prevents the toads from being able to get up and out.
> 
> Ed


Yeah, I wasn't necessarily referring to any gap at the top. I guess I should have said "dimensions" when referring to Height vs. lip vs. leap ability. I never really thought about it, but they don't exactly climb upside-down like geckos, do they?

Getting back on topic, are any of these lidless tanks biotopes?*

*I'm being facetious.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Boondoggle said:


> See, now that surprises me. I'm not sure if I'm proving my point, or the opposite, but I assumed you were older.


 proving
Ive kept darts since i was 12 but I dont think that equates to 4 years expierence at all. I think we all get into the hobby and make our mistakes. We shouldnt even count the first 2 years as expierence IMO

As for seeming older - thank you  that means I'm coming across as I want haha I try to sound as mature as possible while showing my knowledge. I dont know half of half of everything but I know enough to help most beginners and I love helping new guys. I also try as much as possible to reference the guys that do know something, Ed/Phil/Ray or Doug for mantella/Chris K for egg feeders/etc they know what theyre talking about and I consider them the people to listen to when they talk. Theres a difference between trying new things and questioning ideas and disrespecting those who have taken the years to gain expierence. 

Ive said far more then I intended lol take it for what you will


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

ok. We are talking about the ability to undertake an advanced exotic animal programme - to start a large mixed species vivarium in one's home with a presumably small budget and have a very young person with not a lot of experience oversee it. Correct?

i have more experience then a lot of people on the board and my budget is around $500-600 and it can go a little over
$45 for the plywood
$80 for the glass
$80 for the epoxy
$150 for the lighting
$100 for the plants
$50 for the Substrate
$50 for the gs/sillicone
$50 for the pumps
and my dad will help pay for the frogs
also why does the budget matter the frogs don't care how much i spent on the tank


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

HunterB said:


> As for seeming older - thank you  that means I'm coming across as I want haha I try to sound as mature as possible while showing my knowledge.


For some reason, for awhile there people thought I was much older than I am.... it came as a shock to some of the people at NAAC that I wasn't in my 60s.. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MA70Snowman said:


> ON TOPIC: a while back I posted my "Initial" intents for a multi-species viv (not multi dart) What Microfauna should one be concerned about? both the beneficial type and the harmful type. would isopods and springtails suffice for cleanup and decomposition?


Ideally the greater variety of microfauna the better off it would be... however there are only a limited number of different microfauna being cultured. I do know of people who simply went out and collected humus to seed thier enclosures. This does allow for the addition of problematic invertebrates such as millipedes and snails.. However some people just waited out the boom and bust of these inverts (In some anecdotal cases it took as long as two years..) and ended up with a stable microfauna. 





MA70Snowman said:


> Sidetopic: How do you maintain/control humidity in a Lidless design? I have that killer cat so won't even attempt just curious. I'm sure the humidity levels would vary from top to bottom. Are there any benifits to such a design?


Misting, or spraying. The gradient in humidity also mimics what happens in the wild in moist environs where humidity is higher closer to the substrate...


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

vivbulider said:


> ok. We are talking about the ability to undertake an advanced exotic animal programme - to start a large mixed species vivarium in one's home with a presumably small budget and have a very young person with not a lot of experience oversee it. Correct?
> 
> i have more experience then a lot of people on the board and my budget is around $500-600 and it can go a little over
> $45 for the plywood
> ...


I think you'll find that I've been rather outspoken against those who simply say that it can't/shouldn't be done. I have spoken at length on that opinion. However, it's posts like this that get you into a hole.

You are simply missing the point that these fine folks are trying to make. No, you're right, the frogs don't care how much you or anyone else spends. However, that's not the point. The point is that having enough experential knowledge to adequately understand and care for any species, much less multiple species, take years to acquire. That experience can't be bought even with unlimited funds. It has to be gained through,... well, experience. 

While age to me isn't an absurdly important aspect of the conversation, it's quite literally impossible for a 16 year old to have 10 years of honest experience with such animals. There are many here who do have 10 years experience and STILL feel underqualified to attempt a mixed tank. 

Sorry man, but it's not as simple as having a budget laid out and an assembly plan. You NEED knowledge of all the different species, and enough of that knowledge to give each species the care and attention it deserves. You mentioned that you have been doing this for what, 6 years? I'll say, for argument's sake, that at 10 years old you were mature enough to gain solid knowledge of good animal husbandry. (I wasn't so adept at 10, but perhaps you were.) So, at 10 were you keeping all the different species that you plan to house in your 240g tank? If you were, that gives you enough experience to at least enter the conversation.

However, my guess is that you weren't. My guess is that you housed one, perhaps two, different species, likely in tanks built for you at least in part by others. My guess is that you didn't truly start to gain the type of knowledge that many are speaking of until about 14-15, which gives you 2 years or less worth of experience. That simply is not enough to attempt a multispecies tank.

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually all for the younger generations becoming actively involved and becoming great and responsible animal keepers. If you do things right and develop an open attitude, full of the ability to learn from others, you can become a phenomenal advocate for your generation. But that's a decision that only you can make. Your actions speak louder than your words, so make them count.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Haha I always assumed you were in your 50's or 60's but hey, its only cause you seemingly know something about everything


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

HunterB said:


> Haha I always assumed you were in your 50's or 60's but hey, its only cause you seemingly know something about everything


I can't pin down why, but this made me laugh very very hard.


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

All you guys have very large "peens"  lol.....


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## MA70Snowman (May 18, 2010)

MrBiggs said:


> While age to me isn't an absurdly important aspect of the conversation, it's quite literally impossible for a 16 year old to have 10 years of honest experience with such animals. There are many here who do have 10 years experience and STILL feel underqualified to attempt a mixed tank.


I wish I had been able to make that point a couple pages back. you laid it out nicely.



Ed said:


> Ideally the greater variety of microfauna the better off it would be... however there are only a limited number of different microfauna being cultured. I do know of people who simply went out and collected humus to seed thier enclosures. This does allow for the addition of problematic invertebrates such as millipedes and snails.. However some people just waited out the boom and bust of these inverts (In some anecdotal cases it took as long as two years..) and ended up with a stable microfauna.


How would one wait out the "boom and bust" w/o killing off the essentials. I will admit Microfauna is one of my.. other weak areas, and one I am particularly interested in. I can replace a plant, but the mass extinction of your vivariums microfaun, would put a ding.. in your dingy.. well maybe a gaping hole. would you happen to have any infromative links off hand? A search mostly yeilded topics where microfauna was casually brought up but not a solid informative link regarding. 



Boondoggle said:


> I can't pin down why, but this made me laugh very very hard.


 Ditto.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

jfehr232 said:


> All you guys have very large "peens"  lol.....


South park


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MA70Snowman said:


> How would one wait out the "boom and bust" w/o killing off the essentials. I will admit Microfauna is one of my.. other weak areas, and one I am particularly interested in. I can replace a plant, but the mass extinction of your vivariums microfaun, would put a ding.. in your dingy.. well maybe a gaping hole. would you happen to have any infromative links off hand? A search mostly yeilded topics where microfauna was casually brought up but not a solid informative link regarding.


Does this help? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/22589-truth-about-millipedes.html 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/25931-seeding-outdoor-soil-leaf-litter.html


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## MA70Snowman (May 18, 2010)

Ed said:


> Does this help? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/22589-truth-about-millipedes.html
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/25931-seeding-outdoor-soil-leaf-litter.html


Just what the doctor ordered. least I know what I'm looking at/for now.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

HunterB said:


> Haha I always assumed you *(Ed)* were in your 50's or 60's but hey, its only cause you seemingly know something about everything


YES !


*whew*....off the hook, for now.

thread turned back around nicely. Good stuff here!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> YES !
> 
> 
> *whew*....off the hook, for now.
> ...


Well, I have to admit I'm only 44.. I've only been working with herps for about 32+ years now...

Ed


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## MA70Snowman (May 18, 2010)

Ed said:


> Well, I have to admit I'm only 44.. I've only been working with herps for about 32+ years now...
> 
> Ed


 I'd like to see that resume'. "well I was w/ Louis & Clark as they headed west from the Mississippi"


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