# Does honey have an effect on tadpoles?



## ahiruhikaru (Dec 6, 2008)

I was wondering if honey is harmful to tadpoles. I have a tadpole with an air pocket that seems to be having a hard time eating and I added a small drop of honey in the water. I was wondering if it will help or harm it. I read some threads regarding tadpoles with air pockets and it seems that some do just fine. Mine does not seem to be doing so well. 

I feed it the usual tad bites, decap brine eggs, sprinula, fish food, nature rose, and an occasional fruit fly. I do water changes once or twice a week (sometimes more depending on water quality). I use black water, almond leaves, java moss, and Salvinia minima.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

What made you decide to add honey?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Other than spurring microbial growth and depleting oxygen supply iin the water? 

I'm not sure why one would consider honey to have an effect on what could be anything from a developemental abnormality to a parasite infection.... 

Ed


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## zerelli (Sep 14, 2009)

Honey will not spur microbial growth it will inhibit it. I would change the water. Honey is harmful to bacteria and since they recommend you do not give it to human infants I would take the same precaution with amphibians.


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## ahiruhikaru (Dec 6, 2008)

I was a bit concern about its inability to eat. I was hoping may be by adding just a little it can gain a bit of sustenance somehow.  I guess it won't do much at all and it might actually even harm it. Time for a water change.


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## AzureFrog (Feb 3, 2009)

Honey is bad for babies, I'm thinking it would even worse for something as small as a tad.


"Honey is a known source of bacterial spores that produce Clostridium botulinum bacteria."

Infant botulism: Why is honey a concern? - MayoClinic.com


Peace 
Shawn


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## ahiruhikaru (Dec 6, 2008)

Thanks for the helpful advice, as usual. I just finished the water change and the little guy seems to be okay for now. I will observe it for a few days to see if there are any changes.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I would increase water changes, it is my experience that water quality has a huge effect on tads viability. I have seen a few tads with air bubbles lose them with a few extra water changes.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

you probably remember one of my threads on this subject...
if not...

I had a Leuc tad with a bubble almost the same size as it's body.It struggled to swim to the bottom of the cup and I had NO IDEA how it ate or IF it even ate but I kept feeding it along with the others.

It morphed out fine and I still have it - it's over 2 years old and doing fine.

I really should have documented all that....but it was over 2 years ago and I didn't have the insight.

I would not use honey or even try to do too much more than you do with your other tads......feed normally and hope for the best.


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## ahiruhikaru (Dec 6, 2008)

Thanks mark and I definitely read your very encouraging thread  Phil. I will probably just sit back and let nature work itself out. Thank you so much for helping me out. I am just barely scraping a year in the hobby and I am enjoying every minute of it. Everyday seems like there is always something new, challenging, and exciting.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

oh yeah.....what species?

Is the tadpole in question an imitator?

If it is, and you have it in 2 inches of water.....I would put it in a larger cup with more surface area.

That may help with the gas exchange - water issues and to see if that is the cause.

The high protien content of the tadpole bites has also been the topic of discussion for bubbles as well. You could switch to another food source or alternate, which is probably the best.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

zerelli said:


> Honey will not spur microbial growth it will inhibit it. I would change the water. Honey is harmful to bacteria and since they recommend you do not give it to human infants I would take the same precaution with amphibians.


Actually honey is only antimicrobial when it is not mixed with water.. otherwise it would not ferment to make mead.. When diluted into water it provided a wonderful sugar source for microbial growth which can then reduce oxygen levels in the water. 

And the reason they recommend not giving it to infants is because it contains Clostridium botulism spores (which are a microbe...) Disease Listing: Botulism General Information | CDC DFBMD 

Ed


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## ahiruhikaru (Dec 6, 2008)

Yes, it is a imi! So you also recommend increasing the surface area. How about the depth?


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## ahiruhikaru (Dec 6, 2008)

Oh, the "!" = wow, good intuition.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

ahiruhikaru said:


> Yes, it is a imi! So you also recommend increasing the surface area. How about the depth?


You can keep the depth @ 2 inches....but I would try something with a larger surface area than a shot glass. Like a 10 oz cup or even a regular sized deli cup.


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## ahiruhikaru (Dec 6, 2008)

Sorry for causing such a stir, lol. I googled and search in the forum about the effects of honey on tadpoles and I couldn't find any. I remembered a thread where they administered honey on adult frogs but I should have considered other factors . It is a good learning experience.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ahiruhikaru said:


> I remembered a thread where they administered honey on adult frogs but I should have considered other factors .


Are you referring to the thread where a sugar solution (either honey based or sugar based) was adminstered to the back of the frogs as part of a "treatment" to help them get pasted some severe shock? 

Ed


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## ahiruhikaru (Dec 6, 2008)

I don't quite remember when or where I read it since it has been almost a year since my Azureus got sick. But it must have been a misinterpretation on my part about honey providing a little bit of energy boost or sustenance. I am glad I asked.


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## gillenws (Jul 13, 2009)

i'd be interested to hear what neurotransmitter frog nerves use... if they don't have the same synaptobrevins associated with cholinergic nerves that are the human target of the botulinum toxin i'd venture to guess that the frogs might not have a problem with it. after all the syndrome caused by botulinum in the case of infant botulinum is an intoxication and not an infection.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

I just morphed out a vanzo tad with a severe air bubble from traveling across the country. It could never do more than swim in a circle after the plane ride. When I got home I changed the water and didn't feed it for a week which didn't resolve the bubble. Since then I've treated just like any other tad (in about 20 ml H2O, similar to a shot glass) and fed it tadpole bites. It morphed over the weekend and appears to be in good health now that it has all of its legs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

gillenws said:


> i'd be interested to hear what neurotransmitter frog nerves use... if they don't have the same synaptobrevins associated with cholinergic nerves that are the human target of the botulinum toxin i'd venture to guess that the frogs might not have a problem with it. after all the syndrome caused by botulinum in the case of infant botulinum is an intoxication and not an infection.


 Botulism toxin A does block the nerves see Observations on the action of type A botulinum tox... [J Physiol. 1974] - PubMed result 

Ed


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

gillenws said:


> i'd be interested to hear what neurotransmitter frog nerves use... if they don't have the same synaptobrevins associated with cholinergic nerves that are the human target of the botulinum toxin i'd venture to guess that the frogs might not have a problem with it. after all the syndrome caused by botulinum in the case of infant botulinum is an intoxication and not an infection.


Regardless of what neurotransmitters frogs use (and they almost certainly have use the SNARE complex) there is no need to feed the tadpole honey.

Ahiruhikaru, good luck with the tad.

------
Edit:I see Ed beat me to it. Good find Ed.


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## gillenws (Jul 13, 2009)

welp unfortunate for the froggies i suppose... thanks for searching that ed... good micro review for boards this summer anyways


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## gillenws (Jul 13, 2009)

<strikethrough>btw, SNARE complex is part of signal transduction and is not a neurotransmitter</strikethrough> misread comment

although you're right, on second thought i suppose if they were to use the complex regardless it wouldn't matter which neurotransmitter they used... unless it were to have a different synaptobrevin, heh... don't mean to turn this into a biochem discussion, but since we're on the topic do you know if their SNARE complex is the same as a human's?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

gillenws said:


> <strikethrough>btw, SNARE complex is part of signal transduction and is not a neurotransmitter</strikethrough> misread comment
> 
> although you're right, on second thought i suppose if they were to use the complex regardless it wouldn't matter which neurotransmitter they used... unless it were to have a different synaptobrevin, heh... don't mean to turn this into a biochem discussion, but since we're on the topic do you know if their SNARE complex is the same as a human's?


To answer that I would need to have better concentration that I currently do as my biochem is more than 20 years out of date.. so I would have a lot to catch up on.. 

Ed


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Interesting that stopping feeding has not helped. I have 100% success rate with new water and no food until it is gone.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> Botulism toxin A does block the nerves see Observations on the action of type A botulinum tox... [J Physiol. 1974] - PubMed result
> 
> Ed


Ed, don't botulism spores have a very narrow range of PHs where it can produce? I would think that tadpole tea would be well below that PH. (same reason botulism isn't a worry in beer and mead: its way too acidic)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich Conley said:


> Ed, don't botulism spores have a very narrow range of PHs where it can produce? I would think that tadpole tea would be well below that PH. (same reason botulism isn't a worry in beer and mead: its way too acidic)


Hi Rich,

I wasn't worried about the tadpole getting botulism... there was a comment that honey shouldn't be used for tadpoles because it isn't recommended for infants so another poster and myself provided the reasoning behind it... 

I would be worried about depleated dissolved oxygen, increased populations of opportunistically pathnogenic bacteria and significant changes is osmotic regulation (small volume of water and adding a concentrated very soluble sugar...) 

Ed


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## zerelli (Sep 14, 2009)

Ed said:


> Other than spurring microbial growth and depleting oxygen supply iin the water?
> 
> I'm not sure why one would consider honey to have an effect on what could be anything from a developemental abnormality to a parasite infection....
> 
> Ed


Researchers began to document the healing properties of honey in the early part of the 20th century. This ceased with the development of antibiotics but recently the development of resistance to antibiotics has led to a resurgence of interest into the healing properties of honey. The effective antimicrobial agent in honey prohibits the growth of certain bacteria. It contains an enzyme that produces hydrogen peroxide which is believed to be the main reason for the antimicrobial activity of honey. As such, honey is a useful treatment for wounds and scalds. Cuts, abrasions and scalds can be covered in honey to prevent bacteria from entering the wound and promote healing.
Honey can help treat minor acne by attacking the bacteria that cause the outbreaks while moisturizing the skin to aid rejuvenation. Types of honey differ greatly in their antimicrobial potency, varying as much as a hundred fold. Honey derived from the Manuka bush, found in abundance in New Zealand, claims the highest potency of such antimicrobial properties.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

zerelli said:


> Researchers began to document the healing properties of honey in the early part of the 20th century. This ceased with the development of antibiotics but recently the development of resistance to antibiotics has led to a resurgence of interest into the healing properties of honey. The effective antimicrobial agent in honey prohibits the growth of certain bacteria. It contains an enzyme that produces hydrogen peroxide which is believed to be the main reason for the antimicrobial activity of honey. As such, honey is a useful treatment for wounds and scalds. Cuts, abrasions and scalds can be covered in honey to prevent bacteria from entering the wound and promote healing.
> Honey can help treat minor acne by attacking the bacteria that cause the outbreaks while moisturizing the skin to aid rejuvenation. Types of honey differ greatly in their antimicrobial potency, varying as much as a hundred fold. Honey derived from the Manuka bush, found in abundance in New Zealand, claims the highest potency of such antimicrobial properties.


Yes as a basically undiluted ingredient... once you add enough water to the equation (for honey to be effective it needs to be 50% or more based on the best latest literature (and a tadpole exposed to 50% honey solution is not going to have to worry about an air bubble..), that all changes in addition, one has to look at the purported antimicrobial action of the honey.. in most honeys the antimicrobial action is caused by the high osmolality of the honey and additionally by the release of peroxide which many bacteria readily deal with through the use of catalase. The Manaku bush honey contains a secondary phytochemical action that is effectively a contaminent from the plant and not from the bees. (and if needed could be extracted from the plant bypassing the honey entirely...) 

The addition of a readily digestiable sugar source to any biologically active solution is going have a major impact on the bacterial flora and fauna of the system usually skewing in undesirable directions. 

Ed


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## zerelli (Sep 14, 2009)

I will have to defer to Ed on this. I went back through my sources and discovered that I could not find a good basis for what I had believed for a while. I was originally told that by a professor in a microbiology class and it had stuck with me. In review of what I thought backed up my arguent I do not see a single scientific paper that says honey is antimicrobial.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

zerelli said:


> I will have to defer to Ed on this. I went back through my sources and discovered that I could not find a good basis for what I had believed for a while. I was originally told that by a professor in a microbiology class and it had stuck with me. In review of what I thought backed up my arguent I do not see a single scientific paper that says honey is antimicrobial.


Don't get me wrong.. honey is antimicrobial.. it is a combination of conditions and specifications that change when it is and when it isn't. Honey in its undiluted state is about 17% or so water which is a very hostile enviroment for most microbes, particuarly when you add in the enzymatic reactions that produce hydrogen peroxide.. however one has to keep in mind that honey loses these abilities when significantly diluted and then other aspects of its make-up takes over.. with the fructose and glucose components going to feed the microbial community. 

Honey can be effectively used in wound treatments provided it is standardized and specifically chosen for its application (see for example SpringerLink - Journal Article) as a shotgun method it has its problems. 

Ed


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