# milipide in vivarium, what to do



## Graugaard (Feb 14, 2017)

Hi guys, I have now removed three of these guys from my vivarium, they don't seem to bother my frogs, and it seems like they only eat plant material.

Are they in any ways dangerous or pests for my vivarium & frogs? I don't know how they came into my vivarium, but it was probably with the moss.

Thanks!


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## Entomologist210 (Apr 24, 2014)

Common millipedes eat up only rotting vegetation, fungi and detritus. They only use a smelly/foul tasting chemical defense so the frogs might leave them alone or learn not to bother them. However, they might grow in numbers and either look unsightly or escape since they can survive in low humidity environments for a time. I don't have a fix for it either, apart from removing the frogs and using frozen CO2 to gas them; and then re-seeding with springtails and isopods.


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## Graugaard (Feb 14, 2017)

Thank you, if it gets out of hand i will CO2 bomb the tank, but for now i will just remove them, whenever i spot them.


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## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

Entomologist210 said:


> Common millipedes eat up only rotting vegetation, fungi and detritus. They only use a smelly/foul tasting chemical defense so the frogs might leave them alone or learn not to bother them. However, they might grow in numbers and either look unsightly or escape since they can survive in low humidity environments for a time. I don't have a fix for it either, apart from removing the frogs and using frozen CO2 to gas them; and then re-seeding with springtails and isopods.


I've been considering posting a question about _introducing_ millipedes intentionally, just to increase the diversity of bioactivity, but this thread seems like a good spot to bring it up. My concern with them is that some species (maybe most species?) are poisonous, and that babies are small enough to be consumed by the frogs if their foul taste doesn't bother them.

With respect to the OP, if this were my issue, I'd be looking for an absolutely positive ID on the species, and then look up the pertinent info, as there's much to be considered. Some secrete some pretty nasty chemicals. *From Wikipedia:* _Among the many irritant and toxic chemicals found in these secretions are alkaloids, benzoquinones, phenols, terpenoids, and hydrogen cyanide. Some of these substances are caustic and can burn the exoskeleton of ants and other insect predators, and the skin and eyes of larger predators._ Yeesh. And then there's this: _Some eat fungi or suck plant fluids, and a small minority are predatory. Millipedes are generally harmless to humans, although some can become household or garden pests, especially in greenhouses where they can cause severe damage to emergent seedlings._ Oh... and we better not forget this: _Many millipede species have commensal relationships with mites of the orders Mesostigmata and Astigmata. Many of these mites are believed to be phoretic rather than parasitic, which means that they use the millipede host as a means of dispersal._

The aesthetics of seeing them crawling around in the viv is a matter of personal opinion, of course. I for one, would like to see some interesting crawlies in mine, and millipedes seem to be a perfect fit... as long as they're a completely safe species for both frogs and plants (and fungi, if you admire any mushrooms that pop up). I think any animal biodiversity just adds to the naturalistic aspect, and spells out "healthy environment."

I hope somebody else with millipedes chimes in on this thread with his/her experiences. I'm very curious about this.


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## Entomologist210 (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm with you on that note, as I'd love to have a nice sized millipede in my enclosure. However, they do breed prodigiously and quickly. My concerns would be that they'd take over the tank if you have more than one and can't determine gender (they're worse than Argasidae), and that the chemicals they secrete might be toxic to the frogs. I know that the large African millipedes you find in the pet trade can cause burns if you're sensitive to their defensive semiochemicals. I'd never condone placing species that evolved separately from one another into the same tank together without alot of forethought and testing to ensure compatibility.


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## Eloquentidiot (Feb 28, 2013)

I had what I expect is the greenhouse millipede, Oxidus gracilis*, pop up in one of my tanks and then spread to some of the adjacent ones. While to me they are not particularly attractive, short of bombing or completely deconstructing the setups I am not really bothered by them. They don't seem to have done any harm to the tinc who occupies one tank they appeared in - though I have not seen him try to eat any of them. I have seen them in another tank with Chahoua (larger geckos with pretty aggressive feeding tendencies) and the same observation applies. For now I have left them to their own devices.

* I checked several websites and though I am not an expert I did look at one of these millipedes under a microscope and it does appear to have the characteristics (such as the transverse ridges) of O. gracilis. I think this is the most likely culprit to invade vivs; at least in my area.

- Paul


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## BebopCola (Sep 24, 2018)

serial hobbiest said:


> *From Wikipedia:* _Among the many irritant and toxic chemicals found in these secretions are alkaloids, benzoquinones, phenols, terpenoids, and hydrogen cyanide._


_

I'll admit I don't know much about the insect's wild PDFs eat or how they work with those toxins. 
But,
If something like greenhouse millipedes were eaten, do you guys think the dart frogs would be able to synthesize the millipede's toxins and become poisonous to some degree?_


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

@BebopCola Dart frog poison is not mimicry - they are not synthesizing the toxins of their prey. They sequester, or hold onto, the toxins (poisons or venom) from their food (though that process could include changes to the toxins). This is a similar dynamic as monarch butterflies which retain the toxins produced by their food, milkweed, to discourage predators from eating them. I think millipedes (or another insect with defensive toxins) would need to be a major portion of a frog's diet before it would become toxic - and mosts vivs would not be able to sustain a large population of millipedes if frogs started eating them on a regular basis.


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