# Increasing chances of survival



## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

hey guys... i picked up some little baby azureus earlier today from a friend for free. He found them in his tank hopping around, so they obviously got past the petri dish and metamorphed in there without him noticing. He had no use for them, so he let me have them. If i were to guess, i would say they are maybe 2 weeks OOTW so they are still really tiny. 

Here is the problem... All three of them are really skinny. There were four, but one was dead when i got them. They are in a small tupperware container with sphagnum and leaf litter on top. I'm currently trying to fatten them up right now. They are all active, and hopping around, and i saw all 3 of them eat at least one dusted melanogaster each earlier. 

My question is... Is there anything specific i can do to increase the chance of survival for these little guys? They are only my second dart frogs, and i'm still a beginner. I will be feeding springtails in the morning, and dusted FF's in the afternoon (not so many that they will crawl all over the frogs and stress them out though). I'm really hoping that they will fatten up and grow up to be nice healthy frogs! 

Let me know if i am missing anything, or if there are any flaws with this plan. 

Thanks in advance, 

Ryan


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

I think your on the right track. They should fatten up quickly now that there is no competition from the adults. I would not keep them in any container that is not roomy enough,move them to something a little larger ( like a 5 gallon size enclosure) till they have grown some,then i would move them to their permanent home. Hope they make it!


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

I'm thinking i will keep them in the small enclosure for a month maybe just so i can keep a closer eye on food items. That gives a more concentrated fly/spring for the area they are are in. I don't want them to have to work really hard to find the food. After they fatten up, i will move them over to a more spacious sterilite box, then maybe a ten gallon, and then a 40 breeder i have waiting for them. Yes? No? Maybe so?


Ryan


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

A 4O G. Breeder would be great. Watch out when they mature-they might show some aggression toward each other,i had 2 females trying to squash each other when i ended up having a 1.2 group when they were near maturity. I removed the extra female ( the more fiesty one! ) A few days later-eggs. But they should be good together for a good while. Best of luck!


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

thanks! once they are sexable age, they will be separated. Hopefully i end up with a pair!


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

We bought a new camera today (canon powershot ELPH 300HS) so i got some non crappy pics of them. I must say i'm pretty impressed with this little point and shoot!

That aside, the frogs are still hopping around hunting for food. They really don't seem to like dusted fly's (they just eat them and spit them out), so i think i'll go easy on the vitamin powder for a little while. they seem to love springs though!

Here are the pictures

The really little one 









medium sized one









medium sized one, and really little one









All 3. the biggest one is on the far right.








You can see dusted melanos in the last picture for size reference. 

I'll keep you guys updated on their progress (or demise, but hopefully not) Fingers are still crossed!


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## mcaiger53 (Jan 3, 2011)

Try to keep a lot of springs going in there. For some reason, my freshly morphed azures seem to have a harder time w flies than any of my other tincs. I think the wingless mells wend down a little easier for them. When I had a really skinny azures froglet, I put a lid w water in it, and one small piece of charcoal in the middle. It made a little island that I would put the springs directly onto. The froglet could sit there and chow.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Oh yeah, that smaller one definitely looks skinny in my opinion. 

My advice from experience:

1) Springtails. Not as nutritious as dusted FFs, but the little guys enjoy them a lot more. It would be very useful for fattening up the little guy. I usually just blow into the ST culture while holding it over the frogs, and you'll get a ton of them in the enclosure.

2) Separate the frogs. Or at the least the skinnier frog. Set up a smaller container with a lot of hiding spots so that he can hide easily (and not be stressed) and find food easier.


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

mcaiger53 said:


> Try to keep a lot of springs going in there. For some reason, my freshly morphed azures seem to have a harder time w flies than any of my other tincs. I think the wingless mells wend down a little easier for them. When I had a really skinny azures froglet, I put a lid w water in it, and one small piece of charcoal in the middle. It made a little island that I would put the springs directly onto. The froglet could sit there and chow.


thanks for the input. they seem to have eaten all the flies i put in there last night, so i'll just feed a few a day but with more springs.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Can you tell if the little guy is getting his share of the food? Could Fatty be eating it up? If so, maybe move the tiny one to his own container so you can monitor his intake. 

I'd still give him a few dusted flies (in addition to springs), because, even if he spits them out, he's still getting some of the dust.


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

the little one seems to be eating fine (well springtails at least). There is a part of the container where the sphagnum and leaf litter have seperated from the side of the container, and there is about 1mm of standing water on the bottom where the springs like to go. I just saw the little one and the big one sitting in the little cavity munching on them. He's still really skinny, but i guess its only been a day or so. U think i should still separate the little one?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Yeah I think you should definitely isolate him. It would cut down on any competition and/or possible stress from the other frogs.


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

thanks man. I really appreciate all this input from all you guys. I will isolate the really little guy until he is fat enough to hold his own against competition from the others. Question though... I currently do not have any leaf litter, so would it be alright to use damp paper towels and some plant clippings? Maybe even a little plastic dixie cup with a entry hole cut in it (like a little mini coco hut) Thats about the best i can throw together right now...


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

well i got the little one moved. lets just say that was an extremely stressful experience for both of us. JSYK i used a plastic spoon not my hands. Fingers still crossed...


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

For a temp enclosure I think a moist paper towel and some plant clippings would work. Make sure you clean the plant clippings so you don't introduce the froglet to any new pathogens.

The dixie cup with an entrance hole cut into it is a good substitute. As long as he has plenty of places to hide I think its fine.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

ryan10517 said:


> JSYK i used a plastic spoon


That does sound stressful. You could have also used a plastic cup. If you move slowly and get it right in front of him, they tend to jump forward into it for you I've noticed.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

PeanutbuttER said:


> That does sound stressful. You could have also used a plastic cup. If you move slowly and get it right in front of him, they tend to jump forward into it for you I've noticed.


OOPS! Yeah, next time you should do what PeanutbuttER said. When I've done it I put the cup in front of the frog, and then I move my hand towards the frog, which usually results in the frog hopping away from your hand and into the cup.

An a side note on stress, you also don't want to be moving/poking around in his container unnecessarily because this will also cause stress.

And on ANOTHER side note, a lot of members use "grow out containers" where they will grow small froglets in untill they are ready for a large viv. In my experience if your azureus is constantly climbing on the sides of the container it is a sign of stress and that they might be ready for a larger container.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Heres a tip i used to fatten up my frogs. 

When I make my fly cultures, I set aside a small 4oz cup with a pin poked lid. I add a half inch of mixed media to the cup. I dont add any excelsior, ect. Just media. Then I add the flies and allow them to do their thing. Soon you'll see maggots moving around. Once the side of the cup is covered in maggots, I scrape them off with a popsicle stick, and collect them in a separate, smaller container. I dust them with a pinch of vitamins (I use Repashy Calcium+) and add them into the viv on a leaf. If you have some fast maggots, the frogs should eat them up. If he maggots dont move much, give them a mega light mist and they should start crawling. After a while you'll also be able to spoon out maggots from the middle of the cup. It'll be crawling with maggots. 

They are high in fat and should help get those guys up to size. Dont do this every feeding, maybe once a week?


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> That does sound stressful. You could have also used a plastic cup. If you move slowly and get it right in front of him, they tend to jump forward into it for you I've noticed.


lol i didn't like scoop him up with it or anything. i just put it in front of it and put my hand behind him so he jumped on it. Really the frog was fine... i just about had a heart attack when it almost jumped out of the first container ahaha. I couldn't have used a cup, because i was afraid the other two would make a break for it if i had the lid off all the way to fit a cup in there. 

The plant clippings have never been in a viv with frogs or any other animals, and they were washed off pretty well also. I like the maggot idea too. I accidentally dropped a chunk of coco fiber that i use in my spring cultures into the little ones container, and it seems to like to sit there and pick off all the little springs that find their way to the outside. All frogs seem to be eating alright at the moment. Only time can tell who is going to make it.

Thanks everyone for your help. It is much appreciated.

Ryan


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

well the medium sized one passed away this morning  He was with the biggest one in the first container. I'm assuming is was from both stress and not eating enough due to competition from the bigger one. I should have separated it while i had the chance... 

The little one is still doing ok as far as i can see, and the big one is eating well. The big one seems to have gained a little weight, while the little one still looks the same. I'm hoping i don't loose any more cuz this just made my day crap. 

*sigh* chalk it up to experience i guess......


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh no. I'm so sorry


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

its alright :/ hopefully the other two will make it. I have a 40 breeder i am going to set up and let grow in for them when they get big. 

thank you everybody that has helped me out so far.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Don't take it to heart. It's possible that the froglet wouldn't have made it no matter what you did. Sometimes they just don't thrive.


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

frogface said:


> Don't take it to heart. It's possible that the froglet wouldn't have made it no matter what you did. Sometimes they just don't thrive.


thats true. i just feel bad when anything under my care dies... i think we all have those days in the hobby! I appreciate your sympathy frogface


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Gah sorry to hear that. You know, I was actually thinking about this yesterday, but I forgot to post a reply. Here is a quote from http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/14606-dendrobates-azureus-tinctorius-novice.html that might have helped:

"Coming out of the water, the froglets should be able to take melanogaster FFs, though springtails can be supplemented for variety. Froglets should be raised in groups (5+) of similar size or alone, and fed constantly. It is generally observed that they do not do well when raised in pairs or smaller groups, when it has been noted that usually at least one will develop serious problems."


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

hypostatic said:


> Gah sorry to hear that. You know, I was actually thinking about this yesterday, but I forgot to post a reply. Here is a quote from http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/14606-dendrobates-azureus-tinctorius-novice.html that might have helped:
> 
> "Coming out of the water, the froglets should be able to take melanogaster FFs, though springtails can be supplemented for variety. Froglets should be raised in groups (5+) of similar size or alone, and fed constantly. It is generally observed that they do not do well when raised in pairs or smaller groups, when it has been noted that usually at least one will develop serious problems."


thanks man. funny thing is, i've read through that care sheet a ton of times hhaha. The guy who i got these from is cool enough that if they don't all make it, he has some tads in the water that he will give me.


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

fatty has gotten a bit bigger, but the small one has stayed around the same size. both are eating well. i'm not so worried about hugo (fatty's new name) as much as i am about larry (don't know why i named the small one that ) still feeding twice a day. hopefully things will look better for larry. I won't change my signature until i'm confident they will both make it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Have you tried feeding the little one some fruit fly larvae, like mordoria mentioned? If he'll take it, they are very fattening.


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Have you tried feeding the little one some fruit fly larvae, like mordoria mentioned? If he'll take it, they are very fattening.


to be honest, i haven't. Just lots and lots of springtails and the occasional melano. I will try tomorrow just because lights are off right now and i don't want to get their day and night cycles all bass ackwards


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