# Terribilis vs Southern Variabilis



## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

No, not a fight to the death. Just curious on opinions about these frogs as I am considering one or the other as my next darts. I'm also considering Varadero imitators.

I know this is comparing apples to oranges and that these frogs are kind of on opposite ends of the Dendrobatidae spectrum but I really like them both. I have read up thoroughly on both species and feel that I could adequately care for either of them.

It will be months before I get either of these, possibly months before I even begin work on the viv. Obviously which frog I decide to go with will decide the size and style of the viv so I was just wanting to get some direction so I could start keeping an eye out for deals on tanks, lights, pants, etc.

*What I'm looking for in a frog:
*
Right now I have a suspected pair of Cobalts in a 29 gallon viv. See this thread: I'm really enjoying these frogs. They are out all the time, not at all shy, very active. I can look at the tank from across the room and always see movement as they are constantly on the prowl for springs or the odd leftover ff. I would like a similar frog in this respect. I don't want to have to look really hard to occasionally catch a glimpse of a shy frog.

I would also like something I can keep a small group of 3-4 - probably just 3. This kind of rules out other tincs, pumillo and a lot of thumbs from what I've read.

Possible Vivs

What would be an ideal setup for a trio of either of these species? I've heard the Terribilis prefers a bit drier cooler setup than the Ranitomeya genus. Is this true? I was considering buying a mistking if I went with Variabilis. Could I get away without one for the Terribilis, even if I had to be gone several days in a row without hand misting?

If I go with Terribilis I'm thinking of setting up a 40 breeder for a trio. 

If Southern Variabilis (or varadero), I'll probably go with a zoomed 18x18x24 for a trio.


Which One?

As I said, I'd really like to hear from people who have had experience with all of these species. But if you've just owned one and have a strong opinion please let me hear it.

So, out of these three (Variabilis, Varadero, Terribils) what is your favorite? Why?


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## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

Sorry, that was kind of a rambling post. 

Just to clarify:

If you could only have one of those three frogs based on the amount of enjoyment and entertainment you would get out of observing them, which would you choose.

Thanks for any comments.


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

I don't think you'd need a mist king for variabilis, I tend to keep my viv at 80% humidity and mist once every few days. They're just about always out.

I think that you should get both, if it's an option! What to get first may be the question. What flys do you currently culture? If it's melanogaster, I'd stick with the variabilis. If it's hydei, go with terribilis. It might be difficult to keep up with the feeding needs of terribilis with the smaller flies, and it may be difficult to feed thumb froglets with the larger flies. I think many other terribilis owners use supplementary feeders like crickets and bean beetles, but I'll let them chime in on that.

In regards to seeing them across the room- you'll probably see terribilis more because of how large they are and how contrasting they are to the typical greens in a viv. Out of my 4 southerns I always see 1 within a few seconds, and usually see at least 3 at a time. 

I decided to go with my variabilis because:

They're small; I like that I can put some attractive bromeliads in there that they can use as sleeping/hiding places. Harder to do for terribilis.

They can get into smaller places and therefore I can build more detail into my viv.

I can use more delicate plants; I don't know how much terribilis climb, so I don't know how that would affect your plant selection.

I can fit more frogs in the space I had; if I got a small group (which I did) I wouldn't have to worry about the ratio until later, when I could add another unrelated group of froglets to increase genetic variability in their offspring.

One thing I don't like is that I really can't ever hear their call unless the viv is open. If that's a big factor, I'd for sure go with the terribilis.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

IMO... from strictly an entertainment value:

1. terribilis
2. veradero
3. variabilis

I've owned terribilis and variabilis and I have other imitators and vanzolinii (which are fairly imitator-like).

terribilis are BY FAR the most entertaining darts I've ever owned. Watching them eat is hilarious, especially if you get some crickets in there. They also have a really interesting and loud call. They are really bold so you won't have to worry about a tank of non-existent frogs too.

My imitators are my favorite thumbnails that I have. I have 2 pairs of intermedius that are always out and about. The one male always sits at the glass and stares at me (I swear I'm not crazy) while I'm at my computer. So they are bold, have an interesting call and have some really cool coloration. 

Now, honestly my experience with variabilis may not be the best to go on since I just have 2 males. From what I've heard/read they are great as a breeding group... but I barely ever see my males. They are really striking frogs, but their call just isn't all that interesting to me. They would probably be a better choice than imitators if you want a larger group of something since there aren't really any aggression issues with variabilis.


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## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

Thanks for the great answer Fantastica. Definitely some good points to think about.

It would be cool to have frogs that could actually make use of Neoregalias as something more than a background ornament.


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## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

Haha, yeah, I've heard that the Terribs are down right brutal feeders. Do they really need to have larger prey items like crickets somewhat regularly or are they just fed more for the entertainment of their humans? I currently culture melanos but I'm getting some Hydei soon just to give my tincs something a little bigger to chase from time to time. 

Would Hydei be enough for the Terribilis?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

athiker04 said:


> Would Hydei be enough for the Terribilis?


Hydei would be plenty... I would just occasionally grab some crickets if I happened to be at a pet store or if my cultures weren't doing so hot. This is actually another good reason to vote for the terribilis. If you are in a pinch with your cultures you can always just grab some crickets at petsmart or something to get you by.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Based upon what you have said YOU want, I think terribilis would suit your desires best.

I'm personally partial to southern variabilis though. I have a breeding group of 5, 3.2 in a 20H vert and see them out all the time. You could easily do that many or more in your possible 18x18x24. You certainly won't see them as much as terribilis, but you won't have to hunt all over looking for them either.

Terribilis can also be loud, not sure how that concerns you. Variabilis have a quieter buzzing call. Something to think about.

Oh and as far as crix go, I can't personally stand them. Hate me, with a passion.

Should you want Southerns, look me up when you are ready.


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## clifford (Oct 17, 2008)

I haven't kept terribilis, but have a lot of variabilis (both southern and highland) and a group of 4 veraderos. The imis are my current favorite by far. Very vibrant colors and pattern, extremely bold (more so even than my azureus and alanis tincs), and their call is a little more varied and bold than the variabilis calls so far. There are at least three very distinct songs they sing (which in my limited experience are somewhere in the realm of "hey laaaadies" (anyone here?), "hey baby, I see you there, check this out" (let's close this deal) and "dude...seriously...find your own brom" (territorial call/display). One of my male veraderos will jump to the front of the tank and have face off's with me. If I open the doors to his tank when he doesn't want me there. 

I've seen my azureus climb the glass to the top of their 2' tank, but only rarely-- thumbs use 100% of what you give them, and I think that's the clincher for me. When I'm looking for my tincs, I'm looking right at the substrate. Thumbs are everywhere.


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## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

Thanks for more great answers guys. You definitely aren't making the decision any easier though. 

Doug. Thanks. Yeah, I had kind of gotten the impression from some other threads that you were the source around here for Southerns. 

I know Vaiabilis wouldn't be as visible as Terribs because of size, color and the fact that they're using more of the viv and maybe out of sight in the foliage at times. As long as they aren't overly shy that wouldn't bother me. 

Hmmm, Varaderos sound really tempting too Clifford.

Another quick question. Is there any noticeable behavioral differences between the different color morphs in Terribilis? Mint, orange, yellow?

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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

athiker04 said:


> Thanks for more great answers guys. You definitely aren't making the decision any easier though.


Ok then, go with terribilis. Says me 

As for differences in behavior for the morphs I can't really speak to that. I only have dealt with Oranges. I had 3 and I pretty much saw all three at all times unless the lights were out and they were sleeping. 

The only differences I know of is that people say the mints generally get a little larger.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

i'm a bit partial to southerns too. what doug said is pretty spot on. some thumbs do well in groups. sirensis, variabilis, fantastica to name a few.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

I love both my variabilis and my terribs! I suggest that you look for a local frogger who happens to have imis, terribs and variabilis. This way you can get a side by side comparison and get a better feel for each species before you commit to one or the other. 

From what I've seen, terribs tend to be in the open often but they will remain pretty stationary for the most part (This does definitely change when you add flies though). The variabilis are a little less bold, but definitely not shy. My variabilis actively hunt through out the day and are very fun to watch.

John


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## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

Hmm, I think I'm leaning toward the Terrivariabadero. Do they make those? 

Really though, they all sound great. From a purely functional point I may be more likely to go with the thumbs because the space I have to fill would be a better fit for a taller tank with smaller foot print. And I do have a stand for a tank with base dimensions < 20".

Having said that, if I really wanted the Terribs I could make that work too...

FroggyKnight, I would love to see some of these guys in person but I don't think there are a lot of people in my area that keep darts. I only know of the one guy who I got my Cobalts from but he pretty much focuses on tincs, auratus and leucs. I live in Bristol, TN - about 1.5 hours from Knoxville or Asheville, NC. If anybody lives around here and doesn't mind someone bumming around their frog room for while, let me know.


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## Frog Town (Oct 8, 2013)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Based upon what you have said YOU want, I think terribilis would suit your desires best.
> 
> I'm personally partial to southern variabilis though. I have a breeding group of 5, 3.2 in a 20H vert and see them out all the time.


Is your "20H vert" a standard 20 gallon high aquarium?


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## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

Thanks for all the input guys.

I have decided to go with some Ranitomeya species. I still really want some terribs but it makes more sense for me to go with thumbs right now.

A big deciding factor was vivarium size. A more vertical tank works better with the space I have to use. Plus, I may be away for a few months this summer which means I will have to move my vivs to a friends house. A 40 breeder with all that substrate would definitely be way less fun to move, probably impossible without tearing down.

I picked up a 29 gallon on the last day of the $1/gal sale at Petco this past weekend. I like the idea of an exo or zoomed but for 29 bucks... it was hard to pass up. So, I will be doing a 29 vert build. I have it set up (empty) on the stand and have to say, I really like the dimensions and the height. I will definitely have to get some LEDs for it.

I really want to go with an epiphyte heavy build with this. Not just broms, but some nice epiphytic fern (Microgramma/Pyrrosia) and peperomia species too. I'll ask this in another thread but, where is a good place I could find a good selection on these types of plants. I've found them but it's usually one plant here and one plant there. I'd like to keep from paying shipping to half a dozen different places if possible. If anyone knows of a good source, store or individual, feel free to PM me. Thanks.

As far as the specific frog species...

I have to say that I honestly think the Southern varibs are the most beautiful dart frog bar none. Something about the cool colors - blues and greens - blending together, and those dots. Really takes my breath every time I see a photo. Having said that, I'm kind of leaning a little toward imitators, probably varadero, based on what everyone says about their behavior, boldness and general... frogality.  Plus, they seem to be a bit less expensive - always a factor. 

Anyway, I have some time to decide. I'm guessing that both require a very similar vivarium, so I can choose a frog once my tank is set up and growing in.

Thanks again for your opinions.


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## slimninj4 (Dec 31, 2013)

Have you decided yet? I went with highlands. but I will only be using a smaller 10g vert. Baltimore aquarium as some thumbs in a really big tank and they are hard to find.


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## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

No, haven't decided yet. I'm still in the early stages of planning the viv. I really don't know... I'm leaning toward Varaderos though.

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