# HELP! The vet recommended things that I don't know are right!



## kee's zoo

So, for those of you that haven't seen my other post about my sick frog...she has been sitting in her water dish for 2 days straight and now not eating. I just took her to an amphibian vet who had a lot to say. First he said my set up is wrong. I have rocks on the bottom, covered with mesh, covered with coco fiber, and some moss. I have live plants and water dish and a log.

He said my problem is that there is no way to clean it properly, that I need to wash the feces and urine through to the bottom and then drain it. His suggestion was to start a whole new set up with a drain on the bottom, I cannot do that. So he wants me to take EVERYTHING out and start over using PVC pipe on the bottom to hold up egg crate, then fiberglass mesh, then pea gravel, then moss...all with a pvc pipe standing upright to drain with, using a siphon. He says because I was not doing this, that their urine and feces has built up in their environment, making them sick.
He also looked at some anal discharge he found on the female under a microscope. He said there were protozoa present and white blood cells. I now have to give them both metronidazole through a stomach tube. It seems so stressful for them!!
And lastly, he wants me to leave them in a small plastic container for 10 days, while they finish their treatment, or he recommended a plastic shoe box.

WHAT should I DO!!!!!!?????


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## JayMillz

I have most of my vivs set up that way with the PVC tubes & egg crate creating a false bottom. I actually just siphoned my 72 gallon viv yesterday and it's been up and running for about 7-8 months now and that was the first time I had to do that. It's probably a good idea to take your vets advice and while your frog is undergoing treatment in a different container that would give you time to rebuild the viv it is in now. That false bottom will prevent your substrate from becoming water logged and be better for your plants as well. You can pull the plants out and soak them in a light bleach solution and rinse them really well and reuse them if you would like. I would use brand new substrate though. There's a bunch of threads in the vivarium construction area that are full of pictures to help you out if you need it. Good luck, please keep us updated with how you decide to handle the situation.


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## kee's zoo

I purchased new coco fiber to use, good to hear that I can save the plants by bleaching. The vet wanted me to "rain" enough to wash the substrate clean of any urine/feces that I could then siphon the water from the bottom. He said to do it weekly. Have you heard of that?


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## billschwinn

It sounds to me like he gave you good advice. What I am puzzled about is why he gave no antibiotics after finding white cells in the fecal which suggest infection. Although flagyl sometimes works on infection.Keep us posted, Bill


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## kee's zoo

billschwinn said:


> It sounds to me like he gave you good advice. What I am puzzled about is why he gave no antibiotics after fing white cells in the fecal which suggest infection. Although flagyl sometimes works on infection.Keep us posted, Bill


Metronidazole is a type of antibiotic, works for protazoa as well. Have you ever had to give a frog medication through a stomach tube? It took both of us there to do it, I hope it goes well at home.


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## BrainBug

When I siphon of my non-draintube tanks I just move the substrate out of a corner and burrow a 3/8" tube beneath the LECA to siphon it, can't you do this?

Geez, that sound like a pretty extreme regime to administer meds on a frog. Nothing topical would work?

Sterlite shoebox with moist paper towels in a dark room sounds like good advice during recovery though.


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## gturmindright

If you are going to start over anyway, I would REALLY start over and disinfect so that you can avoid reinfecting your frogs when you put them back into their permanent home after treatment.


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## billschwinn

I have never done that, primarily because I have treated my frog ailments by mixing the meds, usually Baytril, through soaking the frog or putting it in their water bowl. The flagyl probably should be given orally, find someone to help you, did he give you a cathater to attach to a syringe to aid in treatment


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## kee's zoo

billschwinn said:


> I have never done that, primarily because I have treated my frog ailments by mixing the meds, usually Baytril, through soaking the frog or putting it in their water bowl. The flagyl probably should be given orally, find someone to help you, did he give you a cathater to attach to a syringe to aid in treatment


yes, he gave me the end of a tomcat catheter to attach to the syringe for administration. I asked about a medicated bath, but he said it really needed to be in their intestines.


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## kee's zoo

BrainBug said:


> When I siphon of my non-draintube tanks I just move the substrate out of a corner and burrow a 3/8" tube beneath the LECA to siphon it, can't you do this?
> 
> Geez, that sound like a pretty extreme regime to administer meds on a frog. Nothing topical would work?
> 
> Sterlite shoebox with moist paper towels in a dark room sounds like good advice during recovery though.


That's kind of what I was wondering...if I could leave my existing rocks and just put a pvc pipe into it, attached to a siphon, and drain it that way. I am not sure I am handy enough to do a whole rebuild with eggcrate and stuff.


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## scoy

Sounds like good advice to me, thats how I set up my vivs. Just sucks the way you have to administer the meds. You may want to use abg mix as your substrate though. It drains way better and dosent get soggy like the other stuff. This is benefical to both plants and micro fauna.


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## kee's zoo

gturmindright said:


> If you are going to start over anyway, I would REALLY start over and disinfect so that you can avoid reinfecting your frogs when you put them back into their permanent home after treatment.


That is what he wants me to do, although he did say I could buy a proper tank when my frogs die. Which I thought was an incredibly insensitive thing to say. Other than that, my only concern is leaving them out of the UVB light for 10 days, while they go through treatment.


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## kee's zoo

I've been reading some other posts about draining, and I might be confused. If I don't have water building up in my false bottom, why do I need to worry about draining? I noticed some posts said they never need to drain...


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## JayMillz

To rebuild the bottom is pretty easy. You can get egg crate, pre-cut pvc tubing a couple inches long for a few cents each, silicone, and a silicone gun if you don't have one yet from practically every hardware store. Just put silicone on the ends of the pvc tubes and place them on the bottom of the viv after you have bleached and rinsed it out and it's dry. (Note: When you put the silicone tube in the gun, don't forget to puncture the inside of the nozzle with a screwdriver, nail, pencil, etc. first so it won't explode all over the place when you try pumping it out). Then put more silicone on the top ends of the pvc tubes and set your egg crate on top. I use a diagonal cutters to cut the egg crate to size, it snips really easily. Then just place the egg crate on top and you're done. I will set some weight on top of the crate while the silicone is drying to help out a little. You can get some weed guard mesh from the garden section and cut that so it's an inch or so wider than the viv on all sides and put that on the egg crate to help keep your substrate from falling through. Then when you need to siphon it out, you just move that off to the side a little and slip your tubing down in there.


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## Fantastica

The frogs wont need uvb light if you're supplemeting with calcium plus. Also, I dont think washing away the feces and urine is as essential as it seems; if you have abg mix and have seeded with isopods and springtails, they'll eat the feces. Having just coco fiber will hinder the microfauna populations, so I could see how it could have been an issue.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## kee's zoo

scoy said:


> Sounds like good advice to me, thats how I set up my vivs. Just sucks the way you have to administer the meds. You may want to use abg mix as your substrate though. It drains way better and dosent get soggy like the other stuff. This is benefical to both plants and micro fauna.


I am ordering some abg mix from Josh's, hopefully it will come soon.


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## kee's zoo

Fantastica said:


> The frogs wont need uvb light if you're supplemeting with calcium plus. Also, I dont think washing away the feces and urine is as essential as it seems; if you have abg mix and have seeded with isopods and springtails, they'll eat the feces. Having just coco fiber will hinder the microfauna populations, so I could see how it could have been an issue.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


I am ordering the agb and I just bought springtails. The vet said it didn't matter if I had the springtails or not, that I had to flush the soil weekly. Also, they probably aren't going to be eating due to the stress of stomach tube meds, so they won't get any supplements.


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## oddlot

Being you are changing the substrate,when you mist daily that will be enough flushing.Just drain the water before it reaches the soil level.The springtails will make a difference.You may want to get some isopods too.Just out of curiosity was this an exotic vet.


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## kee's zoo

He is "Dr. Boyer specializes in the veterinary care of reptiles and amphibians. In 1991 he co-founded the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians," He also sees cats and dogs. So if my water never reaches the substrate, am I doing something wrong? Will I still need to drain?


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## Kudaria

kee's zoo said:


> I am ordering the agb and I just bought springtails. The vet said it didn't matter if I had the springtails or not, that I had to flush the soil weekly. Also, they probably aren't going to be eating due to the stress of stomach tube meds, so they won't get any supplements.


NEHerps has two great articles about setting up a vivarium, as well as all the build logs here. If you set it up right, and seed it with both springtails and isopods quite a bit of things will take care of themselves. You don't have to use eggcrate, a properly deep layer of substrate (not gravel as it isn't conductive to the proper microfauna setting up housekeeping) such as hydroballs or NEHerps drainage layer will work just fine.

I don't know if you've ever setup an aquarium but what you did was the equivalent of setting up a tank without any filter system or waiting until you had any beneficial bacteria to take care of the fish's waste (thus the proper drainage layer, in fact I'd imagine biomedia would work quite well). What you want to do is get a proper system setup where you have your beneficial microfauna and bacteria all working in concert to keep the vivarium environment healthy - the equivalent of a cycled aquarium.


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## kee's zoo

Kudaria said:


> NEHerps has two great articles about setting up a vivarium, as well as all the build logs here. If you set it up right, and seed it with both springtails and isopods quite a bit of things will take care of themselves. You don't have to use eggcrate, a properly deep layer of substrate (not gravel as it isn't conductive to the proper microfauna setting up housekeeping) such as hydroballs or NEHerps drainage layer will work just fine.
> 
> I don't know if you've ever setup an aquarium but what you did was the equivalent of setting up a tank without any filter system or waiting until you had any beneficial bacteria to take care of the fish's waste (thus the proper drainage layer, in fact I'd imagine biomedia would work quite well). What you want to do is get a proper system setup where you have your beneficial microfauna and bacteria all working in concert to keep the vivarium environment healthy - the equivalent of a cycled aquarium.


I thought I did have it set up properly (minus the springtails). I have indeed set up an aquarium before, so I know what you mean. I don't have gravel, it is aquarium rocks. Same thing? What is NEHerps drainage layer? I am getting so confused. Everybody says something different.


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## scoy

kee's zoo said:


> He is "Dr. Boyer specializes in the veterinary care of reptiles and amphibians. In 1991 he co-founded the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians," He also sees cats and dogs. So if my water never reaches the substrate, am I doing something wrong? Will I still need to drain?


If the water in your false bottom never reaches your substrate than theres no need to drain it. Draining is just to keep the water from saturating the soil. Though it sounds like you mist alot so the water will most likely reach your substrate level at some point so a drain will be necassary.


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## kee's zoo

OMG!!!!!!!! She is out of the water!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For the first time in 3 days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG!! I hope she is feeling better!!! Sorry for the over-excitement, but I am so stoked.  I hope she starts eating now too. 



scoy said:


> If the water in your false bottom never reaches your substrate than theres no need to drain it. Draining is just to keep the water from saturating the soil. Though it sounds like you mist alot so the water will most likely reach your substrate level at some point so a drain will be necassary.


If I change their substrate to the abg, can I leave the rest of their stuff pretty much intact? I can just run a hose down for siphoring, if needed?


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## Judy S

kee's zoo said:


> He is "Dr. Boyer specializes in the veterinary care of reptiles and amphibians. In 1991 he co-founded the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians," He also sees cats and dogs. So if my water never reaches the substrate, am I doing something wrong? Will I still need to drain?


so far this guy sounds questionable...the long term goals are admirable...but short term too stressful.....did he/she suggest Baytrll? What about Amphibian Ringers baths...? Trying to force a tube down a frog's throat sounds pretty dicey... I'm just an Ahole enough to double check on this "vet's creds".


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## scoy

In theory yes, you could even creat a pond in the corner to sipon or suck out the water with a turkey baster before the water reaches the soil. But considering your frogs had something you should break down the viv and disinfect everything to prevent them from catching watever they caught again. While breaking the viv down they can be kept in a shoe box with papertowels or spagnum moss and a plant chipping or leaf to hide under.


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## Kudaria

kee's zoo said:


> I thought I did have it set up properly (minus the springtails). I have indeed set up an aquarium before, so I know what you mean. I don't have gravel, it is aquarium rocks. Same thing? What is NEHerps drainage layer? I am getting so confused. Everybody says something different.


Ok in a cycled tank you have beneficial bacterial seeded on your biomedia in your filter right? In an well established tank you will also have it present in your substrate/gravel layer. 

In a vivarium the drainage layer gets to perform the job of the biomedia in an aquarium filter, which is why you want to use a porous type drainage media that helps get the bacteria established. Unfortunately gravel, though it will eventually work, isn't going to be the easiest surface for bacteria to get started on. NEHerp drainage is actually a type of puffed recycled glass, its fairly interesting looking and supposed to be quite light in weight. Hydroballs is a puffed clay drainage media. 

From what I gather and someone can correct me you want your drainage layer to keep moisture in it but not become waterlogged to the point that it's soaking into the layer above it.


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## Kudaria

kee's zoo said:


> OMG!!!!!!!! She is out of the water!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For the first time in 3 days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG!! I hope she is feeling better!!! Sorry for the over-excitement, but I am so stoked.  I hope she starts eating now too.
> 
> 
> 
> If I change their substrate to the abg, can I leave the rest of their stuff pretty much intact? I can just run a hose down for siphoring, if needed?


Congratulations glad that she's doing better already!


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## kee's zoo

Judy S said:


> so far this guy sounds questionable...the long term goals are admirable...but short term too stressful.....did he/she suggest Baytrll? What about Amphibian Ringers baths...? Trying to force a tube down a frog's throat sounds pretty dicey... I'm just an Ahole enough to double check on this "vet's creds".


There were things that made sense and things that seemed odd. His brother was the director of the reptiles/amphibians at the San Diego Zoo. The vet himself said that PDF only live for a couple years, right before he said I could get a proper tank with a drain when mine die. I asked him about a bath and he was surprised to see it mentioned in his amphibian chapter as a way to medicate. I am so overloaded and stressed out. I shouldn't love these darn frogs so much.


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## Kudaria

kee's zoo said:


> There were things that made sense and things that seemed odd. His brother was the director of the reptiles/amphibians at the San Diego Zoo. The vet himself said that PDF only live for a couple years, right before he said I could get a proper tank with a drain when mine die. I asked him about a bath and he was surprised to see it mentioned in his amphibian chapter as a way to medicate. I am so overloaded and stressed out. I shouldn't love these darn frogs so much.


Yea....I'd look for another vet, I hate to say it but his information seems to be from 1991 and hasn't caught up with whats advised now 20 years later.


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## kee's zoo

Kudaria said:


> From what I gather and someone can correct me you want your drainage layer to keep moisture in it but not become waterlogged to the point that it's soaking into the layer above it.


The problem is that the vet I saw today told me I have to water heavily enough to saturate the substrate and fill 1/2 inch of the bottom and then siphon out the water after it accumulates. I don't have my tank set up for that kind of drainage, I never have that much water in the bottom. He wants me to "wash" the substrate like this weekly to prevent my frogs from living in toxic levels of urine and feces.


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## Kudaria

kee's zoo said:


> The problem is that the vet I saw today told me I have to water heavily enough to saturate the substrate and fill 1/2 inch of the bottom and then siphon out the water after it accumulates. I don't have my tank set up for that kind of drainage, I never have that much water in the bottom. He wants me to "wash" the substrate like this weekly to prevent my frogs from living in toxic levels of urine and feces.


And that would indeed be the case if you have a vivarium that's not seeded with springtails (and isopods if you can). Think of them as the equivalent of getting amano shrimp and nerite snails for your tank. They are your clean up crew and will take care of breaking down much of the waste that your frogs produce. Combined with a good drainage layer and you have a vivarium that won't need anything but minimal cleaning.


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## kee's zoo

Kudaria said:


> Yea....I'd look for another vet, I hate to say it but his information seems to be from 1991 and hasn't caught up with whats advised now 20 years later.


I called a vet that has seen my other exotics and the receptionist isn't sure, but thinks he sees amphibians. I will talk to him Monday before I give anymore meds through the tube. I'm going to feel bad if Dr. Cecil sees frogs, and I didn't go to him first.


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## kee's zoo

Kudaria said:


> And that would indeed be the case if you have a vivarium that's not seeded with springtails (and isopods if you can). Think of them as the equivalent of getting amano shrimp and nerite snails for your tank. They are your clean up crew and will take care of breaking down much of the waste that your frogs produce. Combined with a good drainage layer and you have a vivarium that won't need anything but minimal cleaning.


Josh's is out of isopods, anywhere else I can get them? Also, how long after I add the springtails can I put my frogs in? Is it like an aquarium where I have to wait? or will it be ok since I am starting with new substrate (ABG)? therefore nothing bad has built up in the system yet. If I stick to the vet's medication plan, they have to stay out for 10 days anyway.


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## Kudaria

kee's zoo said:


> Josh's is out of isopods, anywhere else I can get them? Also, how long after I add the springtails can I put my frogs in? Is it like an aquarium where I have to wait? or will it be ok since I am starting with new substrate (ABG)? therefore nothing bad has built up in the system yet. If I stick to the vet's medication plan, they have to stay out for 10 days anyway.


You can put the springtails and isopods in at any time, in fact since your frogs will feed on them you will probably need to replenish them occasionally. Look at Pumilo's thread on isopods and springtails. He describes very clearly how to keep a culture of them going so you can put them into your tank at any time.

He also has both springtails and isopods for sale right now.

Oh that thread is in the feeder section.


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## kee's zoo

And she is back in the water....sigh.


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## Kudaria

kee's zoo said:


> And she is back in the water....sigh.


Hmm amphibians absorb most of their water though their skin, maybe she's instinctively trying to flush her system? You might want to keep the water changed out with spring water or soft reconstituted ro water.


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## kee's zoo

Kudaria said:


> Hmm amphibians absorb most of their water though their skin, maybe she's instinctively trying to flush her system? You might want to keep the water changed out with spring water or soft reconstituted ro water.


I use RO water. I thought about changing it, thinking that she might be flushing toxins out (but was hoping that wasn't the case). They have 2 "pools", so I can change them when she switches.


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## gturmindright

You don't need to mist that much. I mist once or twice per week. If I were you'd i'd disinfect and rebuild the entire tank. It's so easy a caveman can do it. 
If you don't rebuild the entire thing I'd at least rebuild the bottom of your tank.
Option 1
Take everything out of the bottom of your tank. Buy some clay aggregate balls and put down 2-3". It needs to be deeper than your water will ever get. Then put down a sheet of fiberglass screen to separate your soil from the clay. Then put down a couple inches of abg or whatever soil you want to use. Siphon out the water before it reaches the soil. 
Option 2
Take everything out of the bottom of your tank. Put down something on the bottom of your tank like pieces of pvc or whatever you want. Then put some false bottom material on top of it. Everyone uses stuff like this: http://www.totalplastics.com/assets/0000/2573/Eggcrate_large.jpg , then screen, then your soil and siphon it out before the water gets to the soil.

Key point is that the water in the bottom of your tank should never touch your soil. Is it possible that you have nothing to separate your layer of rocks from your layer of soil?


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## hypostatic

Can you post some pictures? Like, of your frog, it's current enclosure, and the tank that your vet took issue with? A picture is worth a thousand words.

From what I've read, it seems that as long as you cure this frog of the infection and put it in a new clean enclosure, you should be fine. I wouldn't put anything from the old enclosure into the new one.

I have a tank that ha the bottom drilled. I have had the tank for two years. Up until now I have not drained any water from the bottom (nor did the need ever occur). A healthy micro fauna population should be enough to clean up the poop without having to flood the tank and drain out everything.


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## gturmindright

If you need help there are tons of detailed builds on this forum. There are also tons of people willing to walk you through the build.


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## billschwinn

I would continue with the flagyl unless another vet says stop.


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## kee's zoo

gturmindright said:


> You don't need to mist that much. I mist once or twice per week. If I were you'd i'd disinfect and rebuild the entire tank. It's so easy a caveman can do it.
> If you don't rebuild the entire thing I'd at least rebuild the bottom of your tank.
> Option 1
> Take everything out of the bottom of your tank. Buy some clay aggregate balls and put down 2-3". It needs to be deeper than your water will ever get. Then put down a sheet of fiberglass screen to separate your soil from the clay. Then put down a couple inches of abg or whatever soil you want to use. Siphon out the water before it reaches the soil.
> 
> 
> Key point is that the water in the bottom of your tank should never touch your soil. Is it possible that you have nothing to separate your layer of rocks from your layer of soil?


So I have option 1 except I have 2-3" of aquarium rocks for clay balls and some type of synthetic mesh fiber instead of the screen (does the same thing).


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## kee's zoo

billschwinn said:


> I would continue with the flagyl unless another vet says stop.


I'm not due to give them another dose until Monday, I definitely want to talk to another vet before I put the tube into their stomachs.


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## kee's zoo

Here are some pics, hope they help.


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## Ed

kee's zoo said:


> I'm not due to give them another dose until Monday, I definitely want to talk to another vet before I put the tube into their stomachs.


Actually both Bill and the vet are correct. *Metronidazole has to be adminstered into the GI tract*. That is the only way to get a theraputic dose where it is needed. If you do not follow through on it, you are risking not only a relapse but selection for resistance. White blood cells can be an indicator of a protozoal infection... so the treatment should be continued. You also cannot topically administer metronidazole as it is not well absorbed that way... must be dosed orally and accurately. It is important to tube it as an overdose can be very serious if adminstered in another manner.... 

Also the substrate comments are really not that outdated. The vast majority of the infections in amphibians are opportunistic and often due to poor conditions particularly ones that are unhygenic/dirty. 

Also you should have an air gap between the bottom of the substrate layer and the surface of the water in the drainage layer. If you let the water layer touch the substrate, it then will water log, turn anaerobic and risk things like mycobacterial infections..... 

As for the life span comments... he is probably right if we work out the median life span of dendrobatids that include all of the WC imports... for example the maximal life span of Dendrobates auratus is about 24 years yet they have been consistently imported since the 1980s... where are all of those frogs today? We should hear of a lot of frogs that are in their late teens early 20s if we had a good lifespan in the hobby.... 

Did you quarantine your frogs before you put them in the cage? Did you get a fresh fecal done when you first got the frogs? 

By the way, the fact that the behavior improved is a good indicator that he (the vet) correctly identified the issue and treated it.... I should also point out that he has probably been getting all of the updated changes in the literature as well as at the ARAV conferences... so to label him out of date is suspect.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## hypostatic

kee's zoo said:


> Here are some pics, hope they help.


Hmm, the pics are kinda small, but one thing I see that I would not recommend are those smooth pond rocks mixed in with the substrate. They are currently not serving any purpose except making the build heavier.

Here is a link to the viv-building guide someone mentioned (in case they didn't link to it):
New England Herpetoculture LLC - Vivarium Construction 101

So your viv should be built with 3 basic layers:








(plus a 4th layer: leaf litter!)

The drainage layer "catches any water that flows through the substrate, and in turn keeps the substrate layer from becoming saturated. This allows for the healthy, "airy" substrate layer necessary for long-term vivarium success." You need this layer so that the above layers don't stay wet. It also acts as a place where springtails can breed. You COULD do it with just plain rocks, but I think most would recommend lighter porous materials like LECA or expanded glass pellets.

The screen separator layer "allows air & water to pass through it. The purpose of the screen separator is to keep bits of the soil from reaching the drainage layer and wicking up water into the substrate." Simple enough.

The substrate layer acts to support "plant life, microfauna life, the lives of the inhabitants, and resist breaking down long-term." Basically it acts as sail for your plants, and as a reservoir of microfauna where they can breed. Microfauna is one of the most important aspects of the viv, as they act as foraging food for the frogs, and they clean up the poop and make the viv a healthier place.

Not shown in the diagram is leaf litter. This is important because it separates the frogs from the substrate, and acts as a place where they can hunt and hide. It also allows helps the frogs thermoregulate, as well as regulate how moist they are. Super important.


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## kee's zoo

Ed said:


> Actually both Bill and the vet are correct. *Metronidazole has to be adminstered into the GI tract*. That is the only way to get a theraputic dose where it is needed. If you do not follow through on it, you are risking not only a relapse but selection for resistance. White blood cells can be an indicator of a protozoal infection... so the treatment should be continued. You also cannot topically administer metronidazole as it is not well absorbed that way... must be dosed orally and accurately. It is important to tube it as an overdose can be very serious if adminstered in another manner....
> 
> Also the substrate comments are really not that outdated. The vast majority of the infections in amphibians are opportunistic and often due to poor conditions particularly ones that are unhygenic/dirty.
> 
> Also you should have an air gap between the bottom of the substrate layer and the surface of the water in the drainage layer. If you let the water layer touch the substrate, it then will water log, turn anaerobic and risk things like mycobacterial infections.....
> 
> As for the life span comments... he is probably right if we work out the median life span of dendrobatids that include all of the WC imports... for example the maximal life span of Dendrobates auratus is about 24 years yet they have been consistently imported since the 1980s... where are all of those frogs today? We should hear of a lot of frogs that are in their late teens early 20s if we had a good lifespan in the hobby....
> 
> Did you quarantine your frogs before you put them in the cage? Did you get a fresh fecal done when you first got the frogs?
> 
> By the way, the fact that the behavior improved is a good indicator that he (the vet) correctly identified the issue and treated it.... I should also point out that he has probably been getting all of the updated changes in the literature as well as at the ARAV conferences... so to label him out of date is suspect....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Wow. I never said he was out of date. I also was going to talk to another vet as a second opinion (commonplace practice) before continuing the treatment, nothing wrong with that... Why would I quarantine them before putting them in their new viv? There was nothing else in there and they came as a pair, already together. Also, she has been back in the water, so the behaviour is not necessarily improved. And lastly, the water never reaches the substrate layer from the bottom, not a problem.


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## kee's zoo

hypostatic said:


> Hmm, the pics are kinda small, but one thing I see that I would not recommend are those smooth pond rocks mixed in with the substrate. They are currently not serving any purpose except making the build heavier.
> 
> Not shown in the diagram is leaf litter. This is important because it separates the frogs from the substrate, and acts as a place where they can hunt and hide. It also allows helps the frogs thermoregulate, as well as regulate how moist they are. Super important.


There are no rocks mixed in the substrate, the rocks are the drainage layer, separated by the mesh "screen" (the white material in the picture). The substrate is on top of that layer. I have some leaves and hiding spots, but was planning on adding more after a recommendation by another member.


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## frogparty

When I got meds from Dr Frye years ago I got metronidazole to be administered topically 1
Drop per day for 14 days 

Interesting that it ineffective to administer topically when that's what he had me do, not tube it


----------



## scoy

I dont think Ed was referring to you about the vet being out dated, someone else said it. Youshould definetly take Eds advice though, hes the one to go to with a question. If he dosent have an answer he will find it and provide the proof.


----------



## gturmindright

If you used a false bottom your tank would weight 80 percent less and also drain twice as good. Your plants would probably grow better too.


----------



## kee's zoo

scoy said:


> I dont think Ed was referring to you about the vet being out dated, someone else said it. Youshould definetly take Eds advice though, hes the one to go to with a question. If he dosent have an answer he will find it and provide the proof.


He had some other comments that weren't quite right. Why quarantine new pets to a new home? And I don't have water ever touch my substrate. I know I have a lot to learn, but he made me sound and feel completely stupid...and a little angry, I have to admit.


----------



## frogparty

You quarantine new frogs to make sure there are no pre existing health issues before you put them in your permanent enclosure. Now your enclosure is loaded with protozoans.... And needs to be scrapped, sterilized etc before reuse


----------



## gturmindright

He's not trying to makes you feel stupid but he definitely isn't trying to hold anyone's hand either. Search up his posts from the past....delivering cold hard facts. haha. 
One reason you'd quarantine new animals is so what has happened to you doesn't happen. Now once you've treated for your parasite and the frog is healthy again you'll put him back in that tank and he'll become re-infected by the tank. The reason you quarantine them is so you can see that the frog is unhealthy and treat him and then put him in a new clean tank that isn't infected with parasites.


----------



## kee's zoo

frogparty said:


> You quarantine new frogs to make sure there are no pre existing health issues before you put them in your permanent enclosure. Now your enclosure is loaded with protozoans.... And needs to be scrapped, sterilized etc before reuse


I see. That makes sense. I don't if it would have changed anything though, I've had them for 6 months now. They thrived amazingly after I got them, they had been underweight. If I had quarantined them back then, I think I would still be in the same boat as I am now.


----------



## scoy

gturmindright said:


> If you used a false bottom your tank would weight 80 percent less and also drain twice as good. Your plants would probably grow better too.


I was under the impression anything that created a void between the substrate and water level/ bottom was a false bottom. If I'm correct she does have a false bottom. Just not the type most prefer.


----------



## kee's zoo

gturmindright said:


> He's not trying to makes you feel stupid but he definitely isn't trying to hold anyone's hand either. Search up his posts from the past....delivering cold hard facts. haha.
> One reason you'd quarantine new animals is so what has happened to you doesn't happen. Now once you've treated for your parasite and the frog is healthy again you'll put him back in that tank and he'll become re-infected by the tank. The reason you quarantine them is so you can see that the frog is unhealthy and treat him and then put him in a new clean tank that isn't infected with parasites.


I don't need my hand held, but for one person to be a harsh is to be a little insensitive. I understand that there are mistakes I have made, but I am trying to do what I can now to save my little frog. I couldn't afford this vet visit or the new supplies I bought today. I got hurt at work last year, I have no income anymore and I am totally stressed about my frog's health. I wouldn't mind a little kindness instead of bluntness/rudeness. I am not planning on putting either one of them back in a contaminated tank, everything will be replaced or bleached. Thanks - Kendra


----------



## billschwinn

kee's zoo said:


> Wow. I never said he was out of date. I also was going to talk to another vet as a second opinion (commonplace practice) before continuing the treatment, nothing wrong with that... Why would I quarantine them before putting them in their new viv? There was nothing else in there and they came as a pair, already together. Also, she has been back in the water, so the behaviour is not necessarily improved. And lastly, the water never reaches the substrate layer from the bottom, not a problem.


QUOTE=kee's zoo;1706201]You have all been so helpful. I just got back from the vet and am in desperate need of advice from people with experience. I posted a new thread "HELP! The vet recommended things that I don't know are right!" If you could PLEASE read it and tell me what you think, I would really appreciate it![/QUOTE]


This may be your statement Ed was referring to.It sure looks like it.


----------



## kee's zoo

billschwinn said:


> QUOTE=kee's zoo;1706201]
> 
> This may be your statement Ed was referring to.It sure looks like it.


I never said the vet was out of date, I said I wasn't sure about some of the things he said, I had never heard of it before. I would rather question something that seems odd and have it turn out ok, then to blindly trust and have a poor outcome. It's also not very nice to hear from a vet how you can replace your tank with a better one when your frogs die. True...but not the most caring or tactful.


----------



## kee's zoo

I am mentally and physically tired, it has been a long day. I would love more advice, but am done for tonight. Thank you all for helping.


----------



## gturmindright

We are glad you care and hopefully you get the advice needed to keep the frogs healthy in the future.


----------



## scoy

Kudaria said:


> Yea....I'd look for another vet, I hate to say it but his information seems to be from 1991 and hasn't caught up with whats advised now 20 years later.


This seems to be the out of date comment


----------



## srrrio

I know it is hard to believe, but Ed actually paid you a compliment by coming out of his lair to help you with your frogs. He used to come out much more often and bat us about much harder ;-) He and others on this thread have a lot to offer (it does not always correspond) but usually people with longer years on DB are who you want to pay special attention to. 

I think you are a victim of getting piss poor advice from a pet store, pretty much the same advice I got from a pet store many years ago! Yet you have asked questions here and you should be quite proud of yourself because you had already tracked down a vet. Most people don't do that .. good for you. Regardless of the outcome, you are doing well by your frogs. 

Get some rest,


----------



## randommind

You've received some pretty solid advice so far. I'd like to add just two small things...

1- I would personally be concerned about the constant exposure from the UV bulb in such a small enclosure. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable on the matter will chime in on that one.

2- If you have the opportunity to introduce yourself to other local froggers in the area, do so...seeing how "veterans" care for their frogs will go a LONG way in making the hobby you are obviously passionate about more enjoyable for both you and your frogs.

Good luck with the little guy!


----------



## hypostatic

kee's zoo said:


> There are no rocks mixed in the substrate, the rocks are the drainage layer, separated by the mesh "screen" (the white material in the picture). The substrate is on top of that layer. I have some leaves and hiding spots, but was planning on adding more after a recommendation by another member.


Oops! I see that now haha. I was squinting so it was a bit hard to see on my screen



gturmindright said:


> If you used a false bottom your tank would weight 80 percent less and also drain twice as good. Your plants would probably grow better too.





scoy said:


> I was under the impression anything that created a void between the substrate and water level/ bottom was a false bottom. If I'm correct she does have a false bottom. Just not the type most prefer.


I was under the impression that "false bottom" was just egg crate. But scoy seems to be correct according to josh's frogs


----------



## frogparty

A drainage layer isn't the same as a false bottom. By definition, a false bottom is just that. An artificial base for substrate etc

A drainage layer can be anything, rocks, LECA, grow stones, etc.


----------



## gturmindright

How can it be a false bottom if it is a bottom? To me a false bottom is air. Air is nothing, so it would be like it didn't have a bottom, aka a false bottom.


----------



## scoy

I guess I'm not the only Josh that considers a drainage layer as a false bottom.... Different definition same function.


----------



## gturmindright

I think both systems cause a perched water table. Neither a coarse layer or a layer of air can pull any water through the system. Coarse on top and fine on the bottom would keep the top the driest. For example leca, gravel, turface, then sand.


----------



## Kudaria

Ed said:


> Actually both Bill and the vet are correct. *Metronidazole has to be adminstered into the GI tract*. That is the only way to get a theraputic dose where it is needed. If you do not follow through on it, you are risking not only a relapse but selection for resistance. White blood cells can be an indicator of a protozoal infection... so the treatment should be continued. You also cannot topically administer metronidazole as it is not well absorbed that way... must be dosed orally and accurately. It is important to tube it as an overdose can be very serious if adminstered in another manner....
> 
> Also the substrate comments are really not that outdated. The vast majority of the infections in amphibians are opportunistic and often due to poor conditions particularly ones that are unhygenic/dirty.
> 
> Also you should have an air gap between the bottom of the substrate layer and the surface of the water in the drainage layer. If you let the water layer touch the substrate, it then will water log, turn anaerobic and risk things like mycobacterial infections.....
> 
> As for the life span comments... he is probably right if we work out the median life span of dendrobatids that include all of the WC imports... for example the maximal life span of Dendrobates auratus is about 24 years yet they have been consistently imported since the 1980s... where are all of those frogs today? We should hear of a lot of frogs that are in their late teens early 20s if we had a good lifespan in the hobby....
> 
> Did you quarantine your frogs before you put them in the cage? Did you get a fresh fecal done when you first got the frogs?
> 
> By the way, the fact that the behavior improved is a good indicator that he (the vet) correctly identified the issue and treated it.... I should also point out that he has probably been getting all of the updated changes in the literature as well as at the ARAV conferences... so to label him out of date is suspect....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Lets not over state my comment as it was directed (probably not clearly enough) solely at his vivarium care statements and not his diagnostics or treatment. I've yet to see anyone here say that you have to wash down your vivarium weekly if it is setup correctly. 

With her current setup - yes she needs to wash it down weekly. If she switches from smooth river rocks to a proper drainage substrate of the recommended 3", screen mesh as opposed to filter floss, and then growing substrate topped with a thin layer of sphagnum moss (if she wants) and leaf litter - then adds springtails and isopods she shouldn't have to wash her viv down once a week.

Our knowledge of how to create closed ecosystems - hell any type of ecosystem really from the late 80's and early 90's has changed immensely over the past 25 years. You don't realize how much until you think about the fact that back then the pace of knowledge change in the biological fields had been slow ever since the discoveries of the late 70's. It remained slow until the mid 90's when advancements especially in micro imaging equipment, field gear, and the internet opening up collaboration in a way not before possible all of a sudden resulted in a knowledge explosion.

Edit: Keeping up with that explosion of knowledge is pretty much a full time job in and of itself, even more so with Vets who have to keep track of multiple species.


----------



## Kudaria

scoy said:


> This seems to be the out of date comment


It's easier than you would think, especially in a rapidly changing field and with a degree from the late 90's (I should know mine's from the same time period and I would have to double check just about everything now biology has changed so much). Lord knows I worry about it with doctors enough to also worry about it with vets. 

Also, my out of date comment was solely directed at the vet's comments about vivarium keeping and his (from what was related to us) complete discounting of the effectiveness of springtails and isopods in creating a stable ecosystem.


----------



## Kudaria

kee's zoo said:


> I don't need my hand held, but for one person to be a harsh is to be a little insensitive. I understand that there are mistakes I have made, but I am trying to do what I can now to save my little frog. I couldn't afford this vet visit or the new supplies I bought today. I got hurt at work last year, I have no income anymore and I am totally stressed about my frog's health. I wouldn't mind a little kindness instead of bluntness/rudeness. I am not planning on putting either one of them back in a contaminated tank, everything will be replaced or bleached. Thanks - Kendra


Hmm I'll be the first to admit this can be a very expensive hobby, setting up my tank has probably run me a few hundred dollars already but I'm thankfully employed and can afford it.

Certainly the egg crate method is the cheapest way of creating a healthy drainage area/layer. I prefer using a solid substrate but if you look at the number of people with healthy tanks using egg crate drainage then you will immediately see that it is certainly just as effective.

Egg crate will only take you the crate material itself, some silicone (don't get any silicone with anti-mildew or mold ingredients just 100% silicone) and zip ties from what I've seen should be less than 15 dollars if that.

GE Silicone 1 has been mentioned as well as ACE Hardware's 100% Silicone as safe Silicone's to use in a vivarium.

For springtails and isopods, see if anyone in your area has some they are willing to give you so that you can start a culture of your own. It will take only a clear container (ive seen everything from plastic tubs to mason jars used) and either 50/50 abg/leaf litter or charcoal (white springtail) and feeding them. Isopods will eat vegetables and springtail active bakers yeast.


----------



## kee's zoo

randommind said:


> You've received some pretty solid advice so far. I'd like to add just two small things...
> 
> 1- I would personally be concerned about the constant exposure from the UV bulb in such a small enclosure. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable on the matter will chime in on that one.
> 
> 2- If you have the opportunity to introduce yourself to other local froggers in the area, do so...seeing how "veterans" care for their frogs will go a LONG way in making the hobby you are obviously passionate about more enjoyable for both you and your frogs.
> 
> Good luck with the little guy!


Is having their light on for 12 hours bad? I hope someone else chimes in like you said... I would love to find someone in the San Diego area to talk to, not that picking everyone's brain here isn't fun.


----------



## kee's zoo

Kudaria said:


> If she switches from smooth river rocks to a proper drainage substrate of the recommended 3", screen mesh as opposed to filter floss, and then growing substrate topped with a thin layer of sphagnum moss (if she wants) and leaf litter - then adds springtails and isopods she shouldn't have to wash her viv down once a week.
> 
> .


I ordered a substrate barrier when I ordered the abg from Josh's. I thought the rocks were ok to keep, but I guess I need to get something else from LLL Reptile. I have leaves for the litter and springtails. I am trying to get isopods even as we speak.


----------



## kee's zoo

Slightly off track, but not really, my female leuc spent the night out of the water (yea!), but spent the whole night attached to the "rock" wall, all the way at the top (weird). She usually hides somewhere quite a bit lower.


----------



## Kudaria

kee's zoo said:


> I ordered a substrate barrier when I ordered the abg from Josh's. I thought the rocks were ok to keep, but I guess I need to get something else from LLL Reptile. I have leaves for the litter and springtails. I am trying to get isopods even as we speak.


Well...I suspect you might need to quarantine them but regular ole grey pillbugs/rollypolly's/isopods should work just as well. Where you are its warm all year around so you should be able to find some just by looking under dead branches. Just be careful you go on a field expedition and make sure you keep an eye out for snakes in the woods (and under the same branches your looking for pillbugs). Honestly the egg crate will work and save you money, just search for it in the parts and construction forum to see how to put a simple one together.

Yea I guess that sounded reassuring...just use a stick to flip things over that way you already have one in hand to beat the snake with if you find one


----------



## kee's zoo

Kudaria said:


> Well...I suspect you might need to quarantine them but regular ole grey pillbugs/rollypolly's/isopods should work just as well. Where you are its warm all year around so you should be able to find some just by looking under dead branches. Just be careful you go on a field expedition and make sure you keep an eye out for snakes in the woods (and under the same branches your looking for pillbugs). Honestly the egg crate will work and save you money, just search for it in the parts and construction forum to see how to put a simple one together.
> 
> Yea I guess that sounded reassuring...just use a stick to flip things over that way you already have one in hand to beat the snake with if you find one


I need to quarantine the isos and springs? What am I looking for? I will look for the rolypoly's, haven't really seen any where I live. I used to find them all the time as a kid, maybe I can hit my mom up for some. =) I know a lot of people highly recommend the egg crate method, I am more happy to use the barrier method, even if I have to buy different material. Thank you for the advice on the pillbugs.


----------



## frogparty

There's a lot of us in the San Diego area. 
Join SCADS. We have regular meets/sales and we have members spread out between North and South county


----------



## Kudaria

kee's zoo said:


> I need to quarantine the isos and springs? What am I looking for? I will look for the rolypoly's, haven't really seen any where I live. I used to find them all the time as a kid, maybe I can hit my mom up for some. =) I know a lot of people highly recommend the egg crate method, I am more happy to use the barrier method, even if I have to buy different material. Thank you for the advice on the pillbugs.


Not the springtails that you get from someone or at a store, those haven't been exposed to anything. The field collected bugs though I'm not entirely sure about, though I'd imagine that you would mostly need to make sure they weren't collected from an area which had been treated for anything.


----------



## kee's zoo

So, my leuc keeps opening and closing her mouth, I assume it is from the stomach tube yesterday. Maybe it irritated her throat? I hope that is all it is, it seems strange. Is it possible the medication went into her lungs, rather than her stomach, when he put the tube in?


----------



## frogparty

Or it's doing its daily skin shed


----------



## Kudaria

Kudaria said:


> Not the springtails that you get from someone or at a store, those haven't been exposed to anything. The field collected bugs though I'm not entirely sure about, though I'd imagine that you would mostly need to make sure they weren't collected from an area which had been treated for anything.


Ok upon further reading in my new Orin McMonigle book, I'd suggest joining SCADS and seeing if someone local has some to share with you. There is a chance that wild caught may carry bacteria and virus infections which you probably don't want to introduce into your enclosure.


----------



## kee's zoo

Kudaria said:


> Ok upon further reading in my new Orin McMonigle book, I'd suggest joining SCADS and seeing if someone local has some to share with you. There is a chance that wild caught may carry bacteria and virus infections which you probably don't want to introduce into your enclosure.


ok, good to know. the snakes are safe today.


----------



## kee's zoo

frogparty said:


> Or it's doing its daily skin shed


That would be good. I have never seen them do that before, so was concerned, especially with the timing of it.


----------



## randommind

kee's zoo said:


> Is having their light on for 12 hours bad?


If it were a normal light, there would be no problem what so ever...but the fact that it is UVB and (please correct me if I'm wrong) but over a 12" cube, _*might*_ be an issue. I am not certain one way or the other, but here is a good thread for you to read that will hopefully shine some light on the subject. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/73268-uvb-exposure-dendrobates.html


----------



## kee's zoo

randommind said:


> If it were a normal light, there would be no problem what so ever...but the fact that it is UVB and (please correct me if I'm wrong) but over a 12" cube, _*might*_ be an issue. I am not certain one way or the other, but here is a good thread for you to read that will hopefully shine some light on the subject.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/73268-uvb-exposure-dendrobates.html


I'm not sure if I really got a definitive answer about the UVB. It seems like the frogs will move out of the light if they feel they have had enough. I do have some tall leaves that partially block the light. I was planning on pruning them back, but I think I will leave them now.


----------



## frogparty

Maybe I missed this early on.... But what kind of lid do you have? If it's glass,
It's blocking all the UVB anyway


----------



## jacobi

Also, what kind of bulb/fixture are you using, what are the tank temperatures, what size is the tank, and are you using the screen top the Exo-terra came with?


----------



## kee's zoo

It is a 13 watt UVB light. I have a screen top, glass inserts on order.


----------



## kee's zoo

jacobi said:


> Also, what kind of bulb/fixture are you using, what are the tank temperatures, what size is the tank, and are you using the screen top the Exo-terra came with?



tank temp is 66-68 at night, 70-72 during day right now. 12x12x18 tank


----------



## kee's zoo

I set them up in their quarantine tank, while undergoing treatment. It is a Nano ExoTerra (8x8x12"). It has wet paper towels for substrate, leaves, water bowl, and a new Mopani wood. I really wanted something that would feel more like their home for the next 9 days, instead of a shoe box. Any stress that I can eliminate, I would like to. I can change the towels daily, bleach the leaves and wood, and replace the water dish daily.


----------



## Kudaria

I think once you get your drainage layer squared away you're going to see a vast improvement in your tank. Do you have any plants in it or want to have any plants in it?


----------



## kee's zoo

Kudaria said:


> I think once you get your drainage layer squared away you're going to see a vast improvement in your tank. Do you have any plants in it or want to have any plants in it?


I have plants currently in there, I love having them there. Another DB member advised me to soak them in a mild bleach solution, so I don't have to get all new plants. I can replant when everything else is clean and/or new.


----------



## jacobi

kee's zoo said:


> It is a 13 watt UVB light. I have a screen top, glass inserts on order.


A 13watt fluorescent UVB light? Are you sure? Also, if you have a screen top, there's another reason your frog is soaking in the soiled water.


----------



## Bcs TX

How about a GE daylight compact florescent, you can buy them at Wal-Mart.
If the top is screened it needs to be covered.
Here is a link to the bulbs:GE Energy Smart CFL Daylight Light Bulb: 26 Watt (100W Equivalent): Decor : Walmart.com


----------



## Fantastica

kee's zoo said:


> I set them up in their quarantine tank, while undergoing treatment. It is a Nano ExoTerra (8x8x12"). It has wet paper towels for substrate, leaves, water bowl, and a new Mopani wood. I really wanted something that would feel more like their home for the next 9 days, instead of a shoe box. Any stress that I can eliminate, I would like to. I can change the towels daily, bleach the leaves and wood, and replace the water dish daily.


I really don't think you should bleach the wood, it will leach out over time.


----------



## kee's zoo

jacobi said:


> A 13watt fluorescent UVB light? Are you sure? Also, if you have a screen top, there's another reason your frog is soaking in the soiled water.


Why would she be soaking in the water because of the light? I've had 2 people at LLL reptile (including one who actually owns PDFs) and the veterinarian recommended UVB light.


----------



## kee's zoo

Bcs TX said:


> How about a GE daylight compact florescent, you can buy them at Wal-Mart.
> If the top is screened it needs to be covered.
> Here is a link to the bulbs:GE Energy Smart CFL Daylight Light Bulb: 26 Watt (100W Equivalent): Decor : Walmart.com


Why does the screen have to be covered, because of humidity? I have their new temp viv covered in saran wrap and it is 97% humidity, so I pulled it back some. Also, why switch light?


----------



## jacobi

kee's zoo said:


> Why would she be soaking in the water because of the light? I've had 2 people at LLL reptile (including one who actually owns PDFs) and the veterinarian recommended UVB light.


Not because of the light. Because you have a screen top. The humidity is likely too low, so the frogs are soaking in the water.


----------



## frogparty

Dont listen to anyone at LLL when it comes to PDF advice. 90% of the time it's absolute crap. I've heard it from their mouths firsthand many times


----------



## kee's zoo

frogparty said:


> Dont listen to anyone at LLL when it comes to PDF advice. 90% of the time it's absolute crap. I've heard it from their mouths firsthand many times


I have learned that about LLL. However, the vet wanted to make sure I had a UVB light too.


----------



## frogparty

A lot of froggers like to provide A BIT of UVB.... But there's a big difference in a small amount per day vs an inescapable amount through a full screen lid


----------



## frogparty

Send me a PM if you ever need anything. I usually have extra bugs, bromeliads etc


----------



## hypostatic

My tank is sealed (although there's a fan inside for air flow), and I do not have a UVB lamp. My frogs are happy, healthy, and have bred successfully for me.


----------



## kee's zoo

hypostatic said:


> My tank is sealed (although there's a fan inside for air flow), and I do not have a UVB lamp. My frogs are happy, healthy, and have bred successfully for me.


Am I hurting them by having a UVB light?


----------



## frogparty

Too much could indeed pose problems

Go to Home Depot and get a "daylight" spiral CFL
Hell, I have plenty extra since I'm switching to all LED. Hit me up and you can have a few free


----------



## hypostatic

Potentially? UV radiation IS harmful if you have enough of it. Remember, frogs have wimpy skin, they don't have tough scales that can shield them from everything.

If I remember correctly from the thread that someone posted recently (though it could be another UVB thread), the author found that his frogs did appreciate having SOME UVB, but they would then move to a portion of the tank that was shielded from UV once they've had their fill.

UVB is important (to people too) because it helps the body metabolize vitamin D, which is used in calcium absorption/metabolization. If you're supplementing enough vit D through dusting, you don't really need UVB (same applies to people).


----------



## srrrio

It might be helpful for those responding to this thread, to see the first thread, it seems Kee was advised to use the UVB light but was told supplements were not necessary. Kee's Zoo I missed if you had ordered Repashy Cal Plus. but I would put that purchase ahead of anything else, now that you have got your QT set up. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...tment/151497-normal-behavior-sick-frog-2.html


----------



## frogparty

Yeah, to the OP- hit me up anytime for questions etc. happy to help you out


----------



## kee's zoo

srrrio said:


> It might be helpful for those responding to this thread, to see the first thread, it seems Kee was advised to use the UVB light but was told supplements were not necessary. Kee's Zoo I missed if you had ordered Repashy Cal Plus. but I would put that purchase ahead of anything else, now that you have got your QT set up.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...tment/151497-normal-behavior-sick-frog-2.html


Yes! I have my supplements now, but as they are not eating well, they are not getting them in. Vet advised the same thing, that supplements are not needed, if I'm feeding the Repashy fruit fly media. He also said they probably wouldn't eat while I was putting the stomach tube in for meds. AGGHHHHH!!!
I would like to switch to the supplements and switch the light, but froggies are making it difficult.


----------



## frogparty

You can't gut load fruit flies, so you will NEED supplements.
Tubing them may indeed make them too stressed to eat, but metronidazole is supposed to be an appetite stimulant.... Very stressful for you. Have heart, leucomelas are tanks. If anything can take it and bounce back good as new it's leucomelas


----------



## kee's zoo

frogparty said:


> You can't gut load fruit flies, so you will NEED supplements.
> Tubing them may indeed make them too stressed to eat, but metronidazole is supposed to be an appetite stimulant.... Very stressful for you. Have heart, leucomelas are tanks. If anything can take it and bounce back good as new it's leucomelas


Yeah, I meant to be sarcastic about the vet's comment. He wants me to gut load my rice flour beetles with cricket food. Don't know if that works, either.
Good news is, I'm pretty sure Kahlua ate one FF today. One is better than none.


----------



## hypostatic

Your vet said that you don't need to dust your flies?

Switch vets.


----------



## kee's zoo

hypostatic said:


> Your vet said that you don't need to dust your flies?
> 
> Switch vets.


yes, there has been some discussion about the veterinarian of choice previously in this thread. I was less than pleased with some of his "bedside manner" and recommendations.


----------



## hypostatic

Yeah, I've looked through the thread and seen the comments.

But saying that frogs don't need supplements is totally incorrect. There's no arguing for it.


----------



## kee's zoo

I am hoping they will eat well after they're done with their medication and I can start them on supplements.


----------



## frogparty

Hopefully they like the springtails better than the rice flour beetles. I'll bring you a starter on Thursday so you can feed some and get a master culture going


----------



## Kudaria

For gutloading I'd advise Repashy's Bug Burger...and you can do some interesting things with that as you mix it up.

Typical recipe is 1/4 of the dry mix with 3/4 of boiling water, the thing is you can add in small amounts of the calcium plus or vitamin a into the bug burger and extra gutload your insects. Adding in medicine into the guts of insect feeders is one easy way to get it into fish and should work the same with amphibians.


----------



## Kudaria

frogparty said:


> Hopefully they like the springtails better than the rice flour beetles. I'll bring you a starter on Thursday so you can feed some and get a master culture going


Don't with rice flour beetles frogs typically like the larvae better? Also do you think they would eat dwarf isopods (those miniature crustaceans with calcium in their shells  )


----------



## Kudaria

hypostatic said:


> Your vet said that you don't need to dust your flies?
> 
> Switch vets.


LOL I said just that a few days ago and got jumped on, I think the vet is up on his diagnostics and treatment but alot of what he's said makes me think he's behind on his knowledge of husbandry methods for PDF.

Not a surprise really if he's never raised any himself, certainly my eyes have been opened in the past few weeks.


----------



## gturmindright

I think what we know on this forum and what alot of people in the hobby may know goes way beyond what a vet might know when it comes to husbandry. I feel like we are very specialized. Think about some peoples setups for example establishing a microfauna population, installing a misting system, adding calcium to the substrate, using specialized plants for tadpole deposition, etc. It's crazy. Kind of like letting mice run around your house so your cats can be happy.
Unless your vet has experience with keeping these creatures he probably won't know anything but the basics and what he would think might be ideal.


----------



## kee's zoo

Kudaria said:


> Don't with rice flour beetles frogs typically like the larvae better? Also do you think they would eat dwarf isopods (those miniature crustaceans with calcium in their shells  )


Both of my leucs like the larvae, but I have seen the female eat the actual beetle too.


----------



## kee's zoo

gturmindright said:


> I think what we know on this forum and what alot of people in the hobby may know goes way beyond what a vet might know when it comes to husbandry. I feel like we are very specialized. Think about some peoples setups for example establishing a microfauna population, installing a misting system, adding calcium to the substrate, using specialized plants for tadpole deposition, etc. It's crazy. Kind of like letting mice run around your house so your cats can be happy.
> Unless your vet has experience with keeping these creatures he probably won't know anything but the basics and what he would think might be ideal.


Exactly! That is why the first thing I did after coming home from the vet, was to post on here. Real experience is more valuable then what you can read in a book or hear from someone else, true or not. That being said, they still need their medication and I am not looking forward to torturing my poor babies with their stomach tube today.


----------



## kee's zoo

So the first medicating at home went well. Much better than I expected. I spoke to another vet, who said that metronidazole is not well absorbed through the skin. The stomach tube is the way to go. Only 3 more doses to go!


----------



## Roadrunner

Funny, worked great for me thru drops on the back, within hours. Heck of a lot less invasive too.


kee's zoo said:


> So the first medicating at home went well. Much better than I expected. I spoke to another vet, who said that metronidazole is not well absorbed through the skin. The stomach tube is the way to go. Only 3 more doses to go!


----------



## frogparty

frogfarm said:


> Funny, worked great for me thru drops on the back, within hours. Heck of a lot less invasive too.


Yeah?! Dr Frye prescribed it to some frogs of mine years ago and I applied it topically 1 drop per day per frog for 14 days. 
It worked very well.


* Just realized I already posted this info once * BUT its strange that now peole are saying its ineffective topically


----------



## Kudaria

frogparty said:


> Yeah?! Dr Frye prescribed it to some frogs of mine years ago and I applied it topically 1 drop per day per frog for 14 days.
> It worked very well.
> 
> 
> * Just realized I already posted this info once * BUT its strange that now peole are saying its ineffective topically


Or maybe the dosage you were given was designed to work even if it was less well? ie more concentrated. That or maybe the situation was such that the vet felt that a daily topical dosage was less likely to harm the animal than a every three day stomach dosage.

Ok looking up the medication and amphibian resulted in this: metronidazole is best suited as a bath if you are going to use it topically because it is weakly acidic and result in the sloughing of the epidermis. Lots of different ways to use this but maybe they've recently discovered it does best when given orally.


----------



## frogparty

those are all possibilities. But I was treating a similar condition as Kendra, so I dont see how the situation could be different. Dosage could very well be different, as is the daily drop vs spread out tube application


----------



## kee's zoo

Well, I had two vets tell me the same, and Dr Cecil I trust. I think it's just this particular medication doesn't absorb well. They both ate a little before I gave the meds, so that is good.


----------



## Kudaria

kee's zoo said:


> Well, I had two vets tell me the same, and Dr Cecil I trust. I think it's just this particular medication doesn't absorb well. They both ate a little before I gave the meds, so that is good.


Yea the bath's mentioned were daily 30 min baths...long time to keep a frog in the water, the stomach tube at least is over quicker.


----------



## frogparty

they will pull through!!! I know it.


----------



## FroggyKnight

frogparty said:


> they will pull through!!! I know it.


Agreed

John haas


----------



## Roadrunner

If it was me, if they were eating it'd be even more reason to try topically first and then get a fecal.


----------



## kee's zoo

frogfarm said:


> If it was me, if they were eating it'd be even more reason to try topically first and then get a fecal.


They definitely didn't eat a lot, but considering I was prepared for them to stop eating completely during the treatment, I was pleased with it. I wanted to do topical meds, but if it is not going to absorb properly, I don't know how much it will help. I hate to stress them out (even if they handled it pretty well today) but I feel like if this is what they need to really get better, then I have to try. 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other.


----------



## kee's zoo

frogparty said:


> they will pull through!!! I know it.


I desperately hope so. I've been praying...


----------



## frogparty

Can you post pics? Let's see how fat/ thin they are


----------



## kee's zoo

frogparty said:


> Can you post pics? Let's see how fat/ thin they are


The first frog the female. Second (a little hard to see because of water on the glass) is the male.


----------



## frogparty

They're still fat!!! You shouldn't worry too much!


----------



## hypostatic

Yeah, those frogs are rather rotund. I'd ease back on the worrying.


----------



## gturmindright

I'd put the smart money on them surviving. Thank god you monitor them so well. Usually people don't notice a problem until they are much worse off than yours.


----------



## kee's zoo

It's a good thing they are not skinny, they would never survive this, lol. They were pretty underweight when I got them 6 months ago, I had to fatten them up.


----------



## Roadrunner

But you don't know if it would absorb properly. There are many people who have had excellent results thru topical. As far as I know there is no study on dart frogs saying they don't absorb it thru the skin and one prominant vet who recommends topical treatments and has seen success.
What protozoa was it that was detected? Those frogs look fat, are you sure they just weren't eating in front of you?

And the setup you describe is pretty much what I and other members use for our setups. The plants and bacteria can more than deal with the waste produced by 2 frogs. Are they sure it was protozoa that was causing the white blood cells in the poop? Are you sure she wasn't just soaking before breeding? Did she sit in the water all nite?

Sorry if it comes across as I'm grilling you. I have a problem with a vet who says your setup is subpar when I doubt they have any experience or solid information relating to what they are trying to recommend.



kee's zoo said:


> They definitely didn't eat a lot, but considering I was prepared for them to stop eating completely during the treatment, I was pleased with it. I wanted to do topical meds, but if it is not going to absorb properly, I don't know how much it will help. I hate to stress them out (even if they handled it pretty well today) but I feel like if this is what they need to really get better, then I have to try. 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other.


----------



## kee's zoo

frogfarm said:


> But you don't know if it would absorb properly. There are many people who have had excellent results thru topical. As far as I know there is no study on dart frogs saying they don't absorb it thru the skin and one prominant vet who recommends topical treatments and has seen success.
> What protozoa was it that was detected? Those frogs look fat, are you sure they just weren't eating in front of you?
> 
> And the setup you describe is pretty much what I and other members use for our setups. The plants and bacteria can more than deal with the waste produced by 2 frogs. Are they sure it was protozoa that was causing the white blood cells in the poop? Are you sure she wasn't just soaking before breeding? Did she sit in the water all nite?
> 
> Sorry if it comes across as I'm grilling you. I have a problem with a vet who says your setup is subpar when I doubt they have any experience or solid information relating to what they are trying to recommend.


I spoke to another vet yesterday (who I have seen for my other "zoo" animals), and he also confirmed that this medication needed to go directly into their digestive tract, it is not well absorbed by their skin. This is all pretty recent, so they haven't had a chance to lose any weight (if they are going to). I thought she might have been breeding, but she sat in the water all day 1, all day and night day 2, and the morning of day 3 until I took her to the vet. So it seemed pretty abnormal. The vet couldn't tell me what type of protozoa, and also said there was amoeba. As far as the set up, from what I have heard from other DB members, is that because I had no springtails or isopods to clean up the waste, I was creating an unclean environment. I mistakenly thought the plants would take care of that. I have my frogs in a small viv for quarantine, and will have their regular viv set up properly before I put them back.


----------



## Ed

kee's zoo said:


> I spoke to another vet yesterday (who I have seen for my other "zoo" animals), and he also confirmed that this medication needed to go directly into their digestive tract, it is not well absorbed by their skin.


No surprise there... It is well established in the literature for herp medicine dating back for more than 20 years... 



kee's zoo said:


> As far as the set up, from what I have heard from other DB members, is that because I had no springtails or isopods to clean up the waste, I was creating an unclean environment.


I'm going to say this is 100% pure bunk. People forget that even if there was sufficient biomass of springtails and isopods to eliminate all of the solid waste material from the frogs, it does nothing to reduce the subsequent solid waste mass from the springtails and isopods or the other organic sources. To put it bluntly unless there is some active method of exporting of nutrients, it is still going to be there.... particularly in a newly set up enclosure where your going to have a massive amount of nutrients available from the new substrates, leaves etc adding to the bioload. 

In addition, there is no evidence to indicate that pathogenic bacteria, protozoa, and fungi are removed by the isopods or springtails. In some of the literature on isopods, a number of bacteria pass through the digestive tract undigested... So to make the claim that these organisms make the enclosure safer and "cleaner" isn't accurate. Now it may be aesthetically cleaner with a large isopod/springtail population because you cannot see their fecal material, but it is still there the same. That is the janitorial service they supply, they may make the frog poop disappear.... Anything else is pure wishing and BS. 

It should also be noted that if you have frogs with an infection of a protozoa, then the isopods may facilitate a reinfection cycle since they are going to ingest the waste material and pass the protozoan cysts back to the frogs if consumed. This can result in larger infections in stressed frogs where the immune system isn't working at it's best... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> But you don't know if it would absorb properly. There are many people who have had excellent results thru topical. As far as I know there is no study on dart frogs saying they don't absorb it thru the skin and one prominant vet who recommends topical treatments and has seen success.


Why would the absorption and transfer of the medication across what is effectively a mucous membrane be so different in a frog as opposed to another animal? In other words, on what grounds are you making the claim that it is so different that it requires a study in dendrobatids? 

The problem is that most of the metronidazole needs to be present in the small intestine and large intestine as a theraputic dose to impact the protozoal infection. If it is adminstered in a different manner, it's primary method of excretion is via the urine with on a relatively small amount being passed in the feces. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogparty said:


> but metronidazole is supposed to be an appetite stimulant....


It really isn't an appetite stimulant even though people claim it is one. The appetite stimulation comes from correcting the protozoal or anaerobic bacterial infection that was causing the animal/person to not feel well in the first place. Once that is corrected the animal/person feels better so the appetite returns to normal. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## kee's zoo

Ed said:


> No surprise there... It is well established in the literature for herp medicine dating back for more than 20 years...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to say this is 100% pure bunk. People forget that even if there was sufficient biomass of springtails and isopods to eliminate all of the solid waste material from the frogs, it does nothing to reduce the subsequent solid waste mass from the springtails and isopods or the other organic sources. To put it bluntly unless there is some active method of exporting of nutrients, it is still going to be there.... particularly in a newly set up enclosure where your going to have a massive amount of nutrients available from the new substrates, leaves etc adding to the bioload.
> 
> In addition, there is no evidence to indicate that pathogenic bacteria, protozoa, and fungi are removed by the isopods or springtails. In some of the literature on isopods, a number of bacteria pass through the digestive tract undigested... So to make the claim that these organisms make the enclosure safer and "cleaner" isn't accurate. Now it may be aesthetically cleaner with a large isopod/springtail population because you cannot see their fecal material, but it is still there the same. That is the janitorial service they supply, they may make the frog poop disappear.... Anything else is pure wishing and BS.
> 
> It should also be noted that if you have frogs with an infection of a protozoa, then the isopods may facilitate a reinfection cycle since they are going to ingest the waste material and pass the protozoan cysts back to the frogs if consumed. This can result in larger infections in stressed frogs where the immune system isn't working at it's best...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


So what am I to do about maintaining an environment that is not harmful to my frogs? Am I really to do as the vet suggested, and "wash" my substrate weekly? That seems a little extreme, not to mention stressful for the frogs. Currently the frogs are in the small viv, so hopefully by the time I get the old one set back up, there will be no more protozoan cysts being shed.


----------



## kee's zoo

Ed said:


> It really isn't an appetite stimulant even though people claim it is one. The appetite stimulation comes from correcting the protozoal or anaerobic bacterial infection that was causing the animal/person to not feel well in the first place. Once that is corrected the animal/person feels better so the appetite returns to normal.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


 I didn't think it was, not unless it had magical powers for froggies. I know it doesn't work as an appetite stimulant on dogs, cats, or humans. or hedgehogs.


----------



## frogparty

Just make sure that the substrate is well drained, and your frogs have clean fecals done before you put them into their permanent home. 

"Washing" the substrate weekly seems ridiculous. Give your tank some ventilation, dont let the substrate get stagnant/waterlogged, and dont worry too much about it. 

I know it seems like a ton of craziness, but its easier than it sounds.


----------



## Roadrunner

Well then it works thru the skin.


Ed said:


> It really isn't an appetite stimulant even though people claim it is one. The appetite stimulation comes from correcting the protozoal or anaerobic bacterial infection that was causing the animal/person to not feel well in the first place. Once that is corrected the animal/person feels better so the appetite returns to normal.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

Because it works on dendrobatids by dropping it on their back. Why wouldn't you feel it needed when people report it working by being dropped on a dendrobatids back? That's just bad science to not research it.

And dendrobatids are some of the only frogs that exude poison that has been made in their gut. There could be something there. Although I don't need to know anything about dendrobatids skin to be curious as to why there would be so many reports on dendrobatids being helped by dropping metronidazole on their back if it didn't absorb into their gut.



Ed said:


> Why would the absorption and transfer of the medication across what is effectively a mucous membrane be so different in a frog as opposed to another animal? In other words, on what grounds are you making the claim that it is so different that it requires a study in dendrobatids?
> 
> The problem is that most of the metronidazole needs to be present in the small intestine and large intestine as a theraputic dose to impact the protozoal infection. If it is adminstered in a different manner, it's primary method of excretion is via the urine with on a relatively small amount being passed in the feces.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


----------



## kee's zoo

So something else I thought of, I'm not sure it matters, but it has been a little chilly in the house. It is 66-67F at night in their viv and only 69-71F during the day. Maybe they are cold? I placed a heat bulb on one side of the viv(not too close), which has made it about 77F. They seem to like it, they are both out of hiding, and hanging out on the side with the heat.


----------



## Roadrunner

Have they been tested for chytrid?


kee's zoo said:


> So something else I thought of, I'm not sure it matters, but it has been a little chilly in the house. It is 66-67F at night in their viv and only 69-71F during the day. Maybe they are cold? I placed a heat bulb on one side of the viv(not too close), which has made it about 77F. They seem to like it, they are both out of hiding, and hanging out on the side with the heat.


----------



## kee's zoo

frogfarm said:


> Have they been tested for chytrid?


not sure what that is. The only test that was done was a microscopic exam on anal discharge.


----------



## Roadrunner

Chytrid is a fungal disease that affects dart frogs at temperatures in the lo 70's and below. It's only detected thru a pcr test where you swab the inside of the legs and belly to detect the fungus. When you said the temps got lower that's what I thought of. Esp if they were hovering near the light to warm as some darts clear themselves of the infection by basking in temps hi enough to kill or diminish the virulence of the fungus.


kee's zoo said:


> not sure what that is. The only test that was done was a microscopic exam on anal discharge.


----------



## kee's zoo

frogfarm said:


> Chytrid is a fungal disease that affects dart frogs at temperatures in the lo 70's and below. It's only detected thru a pcr test where you swab the inside of the legs and belly to detect the fungus. When you said the temps got lower that's what I thought of. Esp if they were hovering near the light to warm as some darts clear themselves of the infection by basking in temps hi enough to kill or diminish the virulence of the fungus.


I did some research on the temps needed to kill chytrid, and it's pretty hot. Some research says 37C, one said 32C. So 99F or 90F. How prevelent is the fungus with frogs in captivity?


----------



## Fantastica

kee's zoo said:


> I did some research on the temps needed to kill chytrid, and it's pretty hot. Some research says 37C, one said 32C. So 99F or 90F. How prevelent is the fungus with frogs in captivity?


Fantastic question  doing research on it this semester, and offering free chytrid PCR testing to compile the results. From what I understand, Bd tends to start attacking when the temperature is lowered.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


----------



## kee's zoo

Fantastica said:


> Fantastic question  doing research on it this semester, and offering free chytrid PCR testing to compile the results. From what I understand, Bd tends to start attacking when the temperature is lowered.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


Want to mail me some swabs?  Their viv had been between 66 and 72 for about a couple weeks, I have a heat source for them now, that brings it up to about 77 or 78 when it is on.


----------



## Fantastica

kee's zoo said:


> Want to mail me some swabs?  Their viv had been between 66 and 72 for about a couple weeks, I have a heat source for them now, that brings it up to about 77 or 78 when it is on.


I'll keep you on the list for when I can start testing! Should only be a few weeks.

Are you measuring the heat with a heat gun?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## kee's zoo

Fantastica said:


> I'll keep you on the list for when I can start testing! Should only be a few weeks.
> 
> Are you measuring the heat with a heat gun?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


I have a thermometer/hygrometer in the viv that monitors the far side, and then I use a infared thermometer to measure everywhere else.


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Because it works on dendrobatids by dropping it on their back. Why wouldn't you feel it needed when people report it working by being dropped on a dendrobatids back? That's just bad science to not research it.


What documented proof do you have that it worked? What were the controls, what was the pathogen? How did you quantify it? How did you test the levels in the digestive tract? 



frogfarm said:


> And dendrobatids are some of the only frogs that exude poison that has been made in their gut.


Um, no, that is not correct in any manner. 




frogfarm said:


> There could be something there. Although I don't need to know anything about dendrobatids skin to be curious as to why there would be so many reports on dendrobatids being helped by dropping metronidazole on their back if it didn't absorb into their gut.


Where were these documented? What was the review process? Again what were the controls? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

You said it yourself, that it's not an apatite enhancer, they get an apatite when it works. When you drop it on their back it works because they get their apatite back. Don't need a study to see that.

Dendrobatids take in the poison thru their gut and recombine it and exude it out their skin. Are you saying poison taken into their gut doesn't get exuded out the skin?

Where is your study saying it doesn't work for dendrobatids? Have you ever TRIED to drop it on their backs and it didn't work, What controls did you use? What pathogen were you testing for?
Again, bad science if you don't have a study on dendrobatids right?

Why don't you prove to me and everyone else who has used it by dropping it on a frogs back how it doesn't work? Or does the placebo effect work on frogs? 

Ya know what, I don't give a shit anymore. Have fun.


----------



## gturmindright

Although things can be absorbed through the skin they may not be as effective or work as well as taking them internally.
A human example would be getting pesticides on the skin vs. in your mouth or on your eyeball. The absorption rate is very different depending on the location.


----------



## Roadrunner

What I'm saying is if your frog is really sick and skinny, not like the ones in the op but sick, you might want to try dropping it on their back instead of stressing an already sick animal by trying to force a tube down it's throat. It's worked for me. the animals were back eating within hours. And if you can't "clear" the pathogen then it really doesn't matter as long as the animal starts eating on it's own. It may not "work" in the same way but it works.


----------



## gturmindright

Who's to say the frog isn't stressed out by having foreign substance put on it's back?


----------



## Roadrunner

Me, I've done it a bunch of times and the frog doesn't even move unless it's scared. Sometimes they'll turn around and look right at you while your doing it. It certainly doesn't show the outward signs of stress a confined frog does while it's getting it's mouth pried open and a tube shoved down it's throat. 





gturmindright said:


> Who's to say the frog isn't stressed out by having foreign substance put on it's back?


----------



## gturmindright

Honestly, I feel bad for this person. I can't imagine getting a tube down a frogs throat. Must be horrible.


----------



## Fantastica

gturmindright said:


> Although things can be absorbed through the skin they may not be as effective or work as well as taking them internally.
> A human example would be getting pesticides on the skin vs. in your mouth or on your eyeball. The absorption rate is very different depending on the location.


Humans don't have the same skin as amphibians, though.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


----------



## kee's zoo

gturmindright said:


> Honestly, I feel bad for this person. I can't imagine getting a tube down a frogs throat. Must be horrible.


They are actually being pretty good about it. They haven't struggled, like they did at the vet's office when he did it. They only have 2 more doses to go, today, and Sunday. They don't seems as stressed as I thought they would be, considering they are in a new, smaller viv (for quarantine) and getting medicine crammed down their throat. They are still out and about, not quite sure if they are eating. I saw the female try to eat a ff today, but pretty sure she spit it out (I think because they were dusted, and they have never had that before).


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> You said it yourself, that it's not an apatite enhancer, they get an apatite when it works. When you drop it on their back it works because they get their apatite back. Don't need a study to see that.


Aaron, you keep confusing correlation with causation. That is why I flagged your comments. If we look at the uptake of metronidazole, we see that it is primarily excreted in the urine (and frogs do produce urine) with very little passing from the body via the fecal route (even when dosed orally), effectively what is not absorbed from the digestive tract. So for your method to work, you would have to have the drug passing through the skin (which I am willing to accept given it is a mucous membrane) into the blood and tissues and from there into the digestive tract and then back out of the digestive tract into the blood for removal and excretion by the kidneys.... It seems a little unusual that a medication that is absorbed well via the digestive tract and excreted in the urine would follow the opposite pathway in your scenario... 

Your observation of resumption of feeding may be accurate but the reason for the resumption of feeding may not have anything to do with the medication... This is the issue with anecdotal reports against established methedology or information. 



frogfarm said:


> Dendrobatids take in the poison thru their gut and recombine it and exude it out their skin. Are you saying poison taken into their gut doesn't get exuded out the skin?


This is not what you said and I quoted your statement above on purpose to illustrate that point. I have requoted it again here. 



frogfarm said:


> And dendrobatids are some of the only frogs that exude poison that has been made in their gut.


This quote indicates that you are attempting to change the meaning of your statement and nowhere in my response did I indicate that the frogs do not/did not uptake ingested alkaloids. I flagged the claim that they exude poison that has been "made in their gut". They do not do make the poison in their gut. The current thinking if I remember correctly is that the in a few of the species that modify one of the ingested alkaloids into an specific enantiomere via hydroxilation occurs in the skin..... 



frogfarm said:


> Where is your study saying it doesn't work for dendrobatids? Have you ever TRIED to drop it on their backs and it didn't work, What controls did you use? What pathogen were you testing for?
> Again, bad science if you don't have a study on dendrobatids right?


Actually no it's not bad science since I'm not confusing correlation with causation and I have animal models that demonstrate it's functionality via oral dosing. 



frogfarm said:


> Why don't you prove to me and everyone else who has used it by dropping it on a frogs back how it doesn't work? Or does the placebo effect work on frogs?


Burden of proof isn't on me, it's on you. Your making a claim based on anecodotal observations that contradict a documented method of uptake and excretion. (correlation versus causation...) 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> What I'm saying is if your frog is really sick and skinny, not like the ones in the op but sick, you might want to try dropping it on their back instead of stressing an already sick animal by trying to force a tube down it's throat. It's worked for me. the animals were back eating within hours. And if you can't "clear" the pathogen then it really doesn't matter as long as the animal starts eating on it's own. It may not "work" in the same way but it works.


Correction here... you don't necessarily want to clear the problem organism as the ones that can cause issues are commensuals (or even normally beneficial) organisms that have gotten out of control. 

I'm going to flag the hours comment here.... Typically the protozoa are irritating/damaging the digestive tract and it is that irritation/damage that inhibits the feeding reaction. I have a slightly hard time buying that this is going to heal in hours in a poikilothermic animal... hence my previous correlation versus causation comments earlier

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

kee's zoo said:


> They are actually being pretty good about it. They haven't struggled, like they did at the vet's office when he did it. They only have 2 more doses to go, today, and Sunday. They don't seems as stressed as I thought they would be, considering they are in a new, smaller viv (for quarantine) and getting medicine crammed down their throat. They are still out and about, not quite sure if they are eating. I saw the female try to eat a ff today, but pretty sure she spit it out (I think because they were dusted, and they have never had that before).


Once you get the hang of it, you can tube a frog in seconds and be sure that they are getting the proper dose. It really isn't that stressful as many people make it out to be. if the frogs are thin and not feeding well, the same method can be used to supplement the frogs with an easy to digest food source. In the past, Feline Clinicare, a partially predigested liquid diet was an optimal choice but there are other options now like the Critical Care Oxbow diet. Since these are liquid, they are a good method for getting some of the important nutrients and calories back into the frogs (particularly if they have some issue like short tongue syndrome). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## edwardsatc

Ed said:


> If we look at the uptake of metronidazole, we see that it is primarily excreted in the urine (and frogs do produce urine) with very little passing from the body via the fecal route (even when dosed orally), effectively what is not absorbed from the digestive tract. So for your method to work, you would have to have the drug passing through the skin (which I am willing to accept given it is a mucous membrane) into the blood and tissues and from there into the digestive tract and then back out of the digestive tract into the blood for removal and excretion by the kidneys.... It seems a little unusual that a medication that is absorbed well via the digestive tract and excreted in the urine would follow the opposite pathway in your scenario...



I agree. This is basic ADME (absorption, distribution, metabolism, excretion) and I'm not aware of any literature that indicates that any Dendrobatid toxins are metabolically enhanced in the gut. 




Ed said:


> This quote indicates that you are attempting to change the meaning of your statement and nowhere in my response did I indicate that the frogs do not/did not uptake ingested alkaloids. I flagged the claim that they exude poison that has been "made in their gut". They do not do make the poison in their gut. The current thinking if I remember correctly is that the in a few of the species that modify one of the ingested alkaloids into an specific enantiomere via hydroxilation occurs in the skin.....


Ed, you're probably thinking about pumilio 7-hydroxilation of PTX to allopumiliotoxin. 

Additionally, some (many) toxins are sequestered to the skin unchanged from the dietary source (e.g. BTXa, PTX, hitrionicotoxins, pyrrolizidines).


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## Roadrunner

Split hairs if you want, I don't have the time for it. I don't care(and neither do the frogs) whether you believe me or not or how many hours it takes. 
Really, taking it that I meant they "enhance" the toxins in the gut, you know what I was talking about. Your the one who stated it wasn't an apatite enhancer, that it enhanced the apatite by working, were you wrong?

And it is bad science since you say it doesn't work but you really don't know. I'm claiming i've seen it work, no studies here. Your saying no your confusing correlation with cause and I tell you I dropped it on their back and they healed and you tell me that is impossible but it isn't an apatite stimulant they eat because it works. Aren't you arguing with yourself at this point?

Again, works for me, have fun arguing about it.


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## edwardsatc

frogfarm said:


> Split hairs if you want, I don't have the time for it. I don't care(and neither do the frogs) whether you believe me or not or how many hours it takes.
> Really, taking it that I meant they "enhance" the toxins in the gut, you know what I was talking about. Your the one who stated it wasn't an apatite enhancer, that it enhanced the apatite by working, were you wrong?
> 
> Again, works for me, have fun arguing about it.


I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of "metabolic enhancement" ...


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## Roadrunner

I said if you can't clear the pathogen than what does it matter, I never said you wanted to. Maybe if you wanted to clear it tubing would be the answer as to get a proper dose into the gut. thanks for making my point.

And who said anything about healing. The outgrowth doesn't have to produce damage.



Ed said:


> Correction here... you don't necessarily want to clear the problem organism as the ones that can cause issues are commensuals (or even normally beneficial) organisms that have gotten out of control.
> 
> I'm going to flag the hours comment here.... Typically the protozoa are irritating/damaging the digestive tract and it is that irritation/damage that inhibits the feeding reaction. I have a slightly hard time buying that this is going to heal in hours in a poikilothermic animal... hence my previous correlation versus causation comments earlier
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Roadrunner

So, your point?


edwardsatc said:


> I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of "metabolic enhancement" ...


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## gturmindright

Kendra, how are your frogs doing?


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> I said if you can't clear the pathogen than what does it matter, I never said you wanted to. Maybe if you wanted to clear it tubing would be the answer as to get a proper dose into the gut. thanks for making my point.


Aaron, I didn't make your point... 



frogfarm said:


> And who said anything about healing. The outgrowth doesn't have to produce damage.


IF the overgrowth isn't doing any damage or irritation then why is the frog showing symptoms? If there isn't any damage or irritation, then there should be no symptoms, and therefor no need to treat the frog.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Split hairs if you want, I don't have the time for it. I don't care(and neither do the frogs) whether you believe me or not or how many hours it takes.


*If you didn't care then why bother attempting to refute my comments?* 

I'm not splitting hairs.. this goes back to correlation and causation. In your scenario, you have the medication being placed on the back of the frog, where it is 
1) passed through the skin (passive absorption) along a gradient.... 
2) circulated through the blood and/or lymph and then passively enter the digestive tract (again along a gradient) (crossing two sets of mucosal membrane)

All of which occurs at a reduced pace due to the fact that their metabolism runs at a slower pace as it's dependency on external temperatures.. So to reach a theraputic dose in your scenario we would have to 
1) ignore the fact hat more than 60% of the drug is excreted via removal by the kidneys into the urine and bladder, so reaching a theraputic dose in the digestive tract is difficult without overdosing the frogs (risking neurological damage and/or death)
2) reduced metabolic rate of the frogs as compared to mammals... (and in mammals it takes 1-3 hours to reach a theraputic level in the blood when taken orally... we can use this as an indicator that it will take much longer in a frog due to lower metabolism and having to cross multiple barriers... 


Instead if we tube the frog, a theraputic dose is where it needs to be right from the start and we don't have to worry about the rate of absorption and passage across not only one mucosal surface but two of them... 



frogfarm said:


> Really, taking it that I meant they "enhance" the toxins in the gut, you know what I was talking about.


And again, this is incorrect... And Aaron, no I can't be sure what you are talking about given your claims about various things.... We've had repeated discussions and arguments about a lot of things only to have you refuse to read proof that contradicts you.... so to reiterate myself, no I can't be sure what you are talking about when I read many of your posts. 



frogfarm said:


> Your the one who stated it wasn't an apatite enhancer, that it enhanced the apatite by working, were you wrong?


You keep making this mistake Aaron... I'm not the one claiming it isn't an appetite stimulation as people think.. I'm referring to the established and accepted information in the literature. I would have cited it but over the years, you have repeatedly refused to read or accept the literature so I'm not putting the effort out here... 
Again, you are clearly confusing correlation with causation.... 



frogfarm said:


> And it is bad science since you say it doesn't work but you really don't know.


Actually I do really know that metronidazole does not act as a true appetite stimulant. So you can't make that claim for my behalf... instead we have to look at your assumption that the metronidazole was what caused the frogs to start to feed again... knowing that it is well established that metronidazole is not an appetite stimulant, that administering it topically is questionable given what is known about it's action and clearance and the fact that you didn't use any form of rigerous controls. So your the one with the bad science... not me. 



frogfarm said:


> I'm claiming i've seen it work, no studies here. Your saying no your confusing correlation with cause and I tell you I dropped it on their back and they healed and you tell me that is impossible but it isn't an apatite stimulant they eat because it works. Aren't you arguing with yourself at this point?
> 
> Again, works for me, have fun arguing about it.


This clearly demonstrates that you are confusing correlation with causation.... and no I'm not arguing with myself at all. I'm attempting to clear up a confused argument from your part.. 
Lets change the examples, your argument on visual observation is the same as you claim the sun orbits the earth because the sun always comes up in the east and sets in the west.. And that you have visual proof everyday that this occurs regardless of the known facts that the earth orbits the sun and not the other way around. 

Some comments. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner

Having fun?
You still haven't told me why, repeatedly, it has worked by dropping it on the back of a frog. As I said, what's your explanation, the frogs just got better because they felt something wet on their back and thought it was medicine and had a placebo effect? So you haven't "proven" anything since I've repeatedly seen it work. 

I couldn't care less why it works, maybe it's like IBS and just the overgrowth causes symptoms, maybe there is no inflamation and lesions, I don't know. If you want to know figure it out yourself, I can't help you, sorry.

Unless you figure out why I saw what I saw, you haven't proven or figured out anything. Your just telling someone they are wrong who doesn't care if you think I'm wrong.

And I'm not claiming I did anything scientific so it can't really be bad science, it's my personal observation. I just used a drug a certain way on frogs and it worked.

You are the one who said it isn't an apatite enhancer it works by clearing the growth. I said I've seen apatites enhanced by dropping it on their back. You said that's impossible. So it's either a systemic apatite enhancer or it clears protozoa by dropping it on their backs. If you can think of another answer I'm all ears but telling me I didn't see what I saw is getting nowhere. An answer other than I'm wrong


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## Roadrunner

I'm not attempting to try and refute your comments, you keep asking me for proof which I don't have and proving it isn't even on my list of things to do so I'm trying to give you the help your asking for. I do care about peoples frogs and their experiences with them so I'm doing it partially to give them advice that there may be another way that's less traumatic to do things which ALSO may work.

You make these two comments:

. I'm not the one claiming it isn't an appetite stimulation as people think.

Actually I do really know that metronidazole does not act as a true appetite stimulant.

Is this double speak, something meant to confuse me? Just say it if you think you know what's going on. A "true" apatite stimulant? Your not claiming it isn't an apatite stimulation? If it's apatite stimulation because of metronidazole than it's acting as an apatite stimulant. This is why I can't converse with you. You like telling people they are wrong rather than just out with your explanation. You related to Donald Trump? 

And let's not change the examples. The sun has nothing to do with this conversation and it's just a ploy to get me to mistrust what I see so I believe the "proof" you provide. It's nowhere near the same example. There are 2 clear possibilities for the sun coming up in the east. Rotation of the earth clearly explains why the sun would come up in the east. If you find a clear possibility why frogs that weren't eating and had hi protozoa levels would start eating within hours of metronidazole being dropped on their back, as I said I'm all ears. This happened repeatedly with imports and cb at different times while other frogs were fine.

I come here to relate my experiences. If I'm going to have to "prove" everything I see with papers and studies than I guess it's best I just don't provide my experiences because your annoying badgering isn't worth it.




Ed said:


> *If you didn't care then why bother attempting to refute my comments?*
> 
> I'm not splitting hairs.. this goes back to correlation and causation. In your scenario, you have the medication being placed on the back of the frog, where it is
> 1) passed through the skin (passive absorption) along a gradient....
> 2) circulated through the blood and/or lymph and then passively enter the digestive tract (again along a gradient) (crossing two sets of mucosal membrane)
> 
> All of which occurs at a reduced pace due to the fact that their metabolism runs at a slower pace as it's dependency on external temperatures.. So to reach a theraputic dose in your scenario we would have to
> 1) ignore the fact hat more than 60% of the drug is excreted via removal by the kidneys into the urine and bladder, so reaching a theraputic dose in the digestive tract is difficult without overdosing the frogs (risking neurological damage and/or death)
> 2) reduced metabolic rate of the frogs as compared to mammals... (and in mammals it takes 1-3 hours to reach a theraputic level in the blood when taken orally... we can use this as an indicator that it will take much longer in a frog due to lower metabolism and having to cross multiple barriers...
> 
> 
> Instead if we tube the frog, a theraputic dose is where it needs to be right from the start and we don't have to worry about the rate of absorption and passage across not only one mucosal surface but two of them...
> 
> 
> 
> And again, this is incorrect... And Aaron, no I can't be sure what you are talking about given your claims about various things.... We've had repeated discussions and arguments about a lot of things only to have you refuse to read proof that contradicts you.... so to reiterate myself, no I can't be sure what you are talking about when I read many of your posts.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep making this mistake Aaron... I'm not the one claiming it isn't an appetite stimulation as people think.. I'm referring to the established and accepted information in the literature. I would have cited it but over the years, you have repeatedly refused to read or accept the literature so I'm not putting the effort out here...
> Again, you are clearly confusing correlation with causation....
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I do really know that metronidazole does not act as a true appetite stimulant. So you can't make that claim for my behalf... instead we have to look at your assumption that the metronidazole was what caused the frogs to start to feed again... knowing that it is well established that metronidazole is not an appetite stimulant, that administering it topically is questionable given what is known about it's action and clearance and the fact that you didn't use any form of rigerous controls. So your the one with the bad science... not me.
> 
> 
> 
> This clearly demonstrates that you are confusing correlation with causation.... and no I'm not arguing with myself at all. I'm attempting to clear up a confused argument from your part..
> Lets change the examples, your argument on visual observation is the same as you claim the sun orbits the earth because the sun always comes up in the east and sets in the west.. And that you have visual proof everyday that this occurs regardless of the known facts that the earth orbits the sun and not the other way around.
> 
> Some comments.
> 
> Ed


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## Roadrunner

My wife is teaching about absorption in one of her classes and she came across something stating that metronidazole was highly absorptive thru membranes and tissue and I came across this. This is as much as I care to help figure it out though: Best of luck, maybe some gets up their ass?

Rectal

Metronidazole is readily and almost completely absorbed from 
the rectal mucosa (Reynolds, 1989).It is absorbed more slowly 
after rectal administration than after oral dosing, with a 
peak concentration at about four hours. Bioavailability by 
this route is about 70%.

6.2 Distribution by route of exposure

The apparent volume of distribution is 0.6 to 0.8 L/kg; 
after 400 mg intravenously, it is 1.05 l/kg (Jensen & Gugler, 
1983; Gupte, 1983).

Protein binding is low, between 8 and 11% (Schwartz & Jeunet, 
1976).

It also penetrates well in body tissue and fluids including 
vaginal secretions, seminal fluid, saliva and breast milk, 
and therapeutic concentration has been achieved in 
cerebrospinal fluid (Schwartz & Jeunet, 1976).

As compared to serum concentration, the following tissue 
concentrations are observed:

Middle ear mucosa 180%
Gall bladder bile 135%
CSF 120%
Abdominal muscles 110%
Fallopian tube 100%
Uterus 95%
Human milk 90%
Ileum 85%
Bone 80%
Colon 70%
Peritoneal cavity, appendix and choledochus bile 55% but 
omentum has only 20% and subcutaneous tissue 10%.

(Houghton et al.,1979)

When given an oral suspension of benzoyl metronidazole, the 
system availability is 80% of metronidazole.

When given as suppository, the bioavailability is between 44 
to 80% and a mean 67% of oral dose (Bergan et al., 
1984).



6.3 Biological half-life by route of exposure

Elimination half-life after an intravenous infusion of 
1.5 g is between 6.6 to 10.3 hours, with a mean of 8.4 hours. 
The half-life of hydroxy metabolites is between 13.3 and 19.1 
hours (Bergan et al., 1984). Repeated doses every 6 to 8 
hours may result in some accumulation.

In cases of impaired liver function, elimination is slower. 
In renal failure half-life of metronidazole is unchanged but 
that of metabolites is increased.

6.4 Metabolism

Metronidazole is almost completely metabolized in liver. 
Principal metabolites result from oxidation of side chain and 
formation of glucuronides. A small amount of reduced 
metabolites, including ring cleavage products, is formed by 
gut flora (Koch et al., 1981).

Major metabolites are 1-(2 hydroxy-ethyl)-2-hydroxy methyl-5- 
nitroimidazole which is active and which gives advantage in 
terms of length of action, and the inactive 1-acetic acid-2- 
methyl-5-nitroimadozole.

6.5 Elimination by route of exposure

Main route of elimination is by kidney but it is also 
secreted in bile and breast milk. 77% is recovered from 
urine and 14% from stool (Gray et al., 1961).

Urine of some patients may become reddish-brown due to some 
unidentified pigment derived from this drug.


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## Ed

Administration of drugs into the colon is nothing new and really doesn't help you a lot with topical administration on the back... the distal end of the colon is highly vascularized and is part of the reabsorbtion of nutrients and electrolytes that were passed from the small intestines. 



frogfarm said:


> * 6.3 Biological half-life by route of exposure
> 
> Elimination half-life after an intravenous infusion of
> 1.5 g is between 6.6 to 10.3 hours, with a mean of 8.4 hours.
> The half-life of hydroxy metabolites is between 13.3 and 19.1
> hours (Bergan et al., 1984). Repeated doses every 6 to 8
> hours may result in some accumulation.*





frogfarm said:


> Funny, worked great for me thru drops on the back, within hours. Heck of a lot less invasive too.


Hmmmmm so once again a frog has a metabolic reaction to a "problem" that is faster than or equal to the resolution encountered in mammals..... 




frogfarm said:


> 6.5 Elimination by route of exposure
> *
> Main route of elimination is by kidney but it is also
> secreted in bile and breast milk. 77% is recovered from
> urine and 14% from stool (Gray et al., 1961).*
> .


Note the amount eliminated in the urine versus the amount that ends up in the fecal material... Again, no surprise and little indication that topical administration is going to result in sufficient drug activity in the digestive tract. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> I'm not attempting to try and refute your comments, you keep asking me for proof which I don't have and proving it isn't even on my list of things to do so I'm trying to give you the help your asking for. I do care about peoples frogs and their experiences with them so I'm doing it partially to give them advice that there may be another way that's less traumatic to do things which ALSO may work.


This brings me back to the issue of causation and correlation. The problem with your "experiences" that I challenge is that they are contradicted by what we know as hard facts. Your observation may be correct but the reason you attribute to the observation may be seriously off the mark. That is when you have to provide proof to your "reasoning" as your suggestions may be detrimental to the hobby. Your problem is that you cannot accept that your "reason" for that observation could be wrong. 



frogfarm said:


> You make these two comments:
> 
> . I'm not the one claiming it isn't an appetite stimulation as people think.
> 
> Actually I do really know that metronidazole does not act as a true appetite stimulant.
> 
> Is this double speak, something meant to confuse me? Just say it if you think you know what's going on. A "true" apatite stimulant? Your not claiming it isn't an apatite stimulation? If it's apatite stimulation because of metronidazole than it's acting as an apatite stimulant. This is why I can't converse with you. You like telling people they are wrong rather than just out with your explanation. You related to Donald Trump?


Actually, no it's not double speak... If you look at the context of the thread where it was directly stated as a appetite stimulant and your implications that frogs treated topically with metronidazole not only reach theraputic dosages in the gut, but have the protozoal issues resolved and all inflammation healed in the matter of hours.....you should see that they are not double speak. 



frogfarm said:


> And let's not change the examples. The sun has nothing to do with this conversation and it's just a ploy to get me to mistrust what I see so I believe the "proof" you provide. It's nowhere near the same example. There are 2 clear possibilities for the sun coming up in the east. Rotation of the earth clearly explains why the sun would come up in the east.


No Aaron, the analogy is apt, your attempting to add in known facts to the analogy to get yourself out of the logical fallacy. The data is pretty significant and hard in the literature that contradicts your conclusion for your observation... much like how people believed for a very long time that the sun orbited the earth and it took the Copernican revolution to put people onto the right path.... 



frogfarm said:


> If you find a clear possibility why frogs that weren't eating and had hi protozoa levels would start eating within hours of metronidazole being dropped on their back, as I said I'm all ears. This happened repeatedly with imports and cb at different times while other frogs were fine.


And there were no other possible answers to a scenario that should have seemed odd to you? Your not an idiot... don't you ever question your own observations? I question mine all of the time. As I noted before, in your scenario the drug goes through an extra step in absorption and elimination, contrary to the models, and resolves all of the damage that causes the frog to not want to eat faster than the mammalian models... Doesn't that sound wrong to you, particularly since mammalian metabolisms are much much faster than anuran or even reptile models? 



frogfarm said:


> I come here to relate my experiences. If I'm going to have to "prove" everything I see with papers and studies than I guess it's best I just don't provide my experiences because your annoying badgering isn't worth it.


You keep saying this but have yet to do it.. As I've pointed out many times, the observation can be accurate, the reason for the observation is the problem. Did it ever occur to you that since you have a lot of experience with frogs, that perhaps the way you care for the frogs was a more probable reason for them to begin feeding as opposed to dropping some medicine on their back and seeing results that don't follow the hard facts of what we know about the treatment? 

Correlation versus causation..... much like the old tired dogma, that fruit fly cultures crash because they become overpopulated...... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Roadrunner

Sorry I never said anything about healing inflamation or it even being present and gave an example of IBS where you don't eat because your not hungry and it may be because of an overgrowth(or correlate with an overgrowth) of commensuels and not create inflamation or lesions.

Put a drop on a frogs back and figure it out. Your arguing with me and you've never even tried it. If you want to find out what happened your on your own. I dropped it on its back and it worked. Worked means they started eating. Anything you assume in the meantime is just that.

And ya I wonder about things all the time. This wasn't one, it accomplished my goal quick and easy. I have other things to think about. And I've heard similar reports from a lot of people, so do they all care for their frogs that well?

Again, I'll not relate my experiences if I'm going to get the 3rd degree if it doesn't jive with your world view or your "science". I have better things to do. Figure it out yourself or at least try it in a bunch of situations before trying to discredit someone giving of their free time to help someone who didn't want to tube a frog!

And your right I'm not an idiot, you just assume so. That's why I gave out the idea it was acting as an apatite stimulant which you quickly shot down. You not my teacher and this isn't a class. Your trying to make me describe what the hell happened, when I'm not involved in the field, for your benefit is bullying in my eyes. All u do is shoot down any ideas I may have and I think you and Donn enjoy it. If not you'd try to help instead of just telling someone, over and over they are wrong and they could hurt the hobby.

Detrimental to the hobby!!!!! what a JOKE! I followed vets advice and so have others, look it up! If it isn't bad science to try and refute something without ever trying said activity then there needs to be another word made up to describe the situation.


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