# what am i doing wrong?!?!



## mrzoggs

im not even sure how to explain whats going on nor where to get started. ill start from the absolute beginning. 

bought 2 red eyed tree frogs from undergroundreptiles.com, they were my first frogs ever. since they were not fully grown i kept them both in a 10 gallon tank. it was set up exactly how it was supposed to. eco eath, fake plants, shallow water dish, etc. within a week one of them died. it was acting funny the whole time. sleeping on the ground, dark colors, awake during the day, and just looked plain unhappy. since then i had kept the one that lived and he has been perfect. eats well. sits up high. good coloring. everything has went great. he had gotten bigger and it was time to move him into a new tank. i bought a 30g. 30x12x18. the same day i bought another red eyed tree frog from a local pet store. it was the last one they had and the first time i had seen them there. i will call her "she" for now. she was bright green in color. even brighter than i had ever seen "him". i took her home and set up the new tank. eco earth, fake plants, and a medium exoterra waterfall and fogger. they were fine in there for a while. now this past couple weeks she had been acting funny. sleeping lower. couldnt climb the wall due to her being wet from being in her waterdish, and just didnt seem normal. i have started a new build for the 30 gallon that includes a false bottom and other things and have put them both in a 30 gallon tubberwear. she was iffy in there also. they have been in there i think 4 days now. with crickets, and i havent seen one poop. unless its just too small to notice. i put a small pothos in there so there is a little bit of dirt. i washed off the pothos and replanted it in eco earth so it should be clean. he was acting fine in there, she was not. sleeping low once again. then in the middle of the night last night i peeked at them and noticed she was asleep on the ground. i took them both out and put them in a sandwhich size tubberwear containor and changed out the papertowels at the bottom incase they have peed on it. put them back in ther and she stayed on the wall. then i look in there 30 mins later and "he" is asleep on the ground. i was going to try a 10:1 pedialyte soak tonight and a force feed with a syringe and smushed up cricket. not sure exactly what im doing wrong. let me know what pictures you would like if any. they both look a little skinny i guess " im not a frog nutritionist so i wouldnt know" thank you for the help. i also emailed dr frye. not sure exactly what the problem is or how to take control of it. can really tell you the correct humidity because my hydrometer i bought from the pet store is junk and i feel like its wrong.


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## frogface

Do you have any pictures of their previous tank? Also, could you post some pictures of the frogs?


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## mrzoggs

previous tank









what they are in now.

tried to take a picture of the temperature but you cant read it. my thermometer says exactly 80 right now. since i took them out and put them back in they have both made there way to the side. still no poop. water is clean as always. they are good in color right now but every time i say that a couple hours later they will be at the bottom and dark green acting funny again.

here is the pictures of the frogs. 

this is "her"









this is "him:









and i feel stupid right now....because there color isnt like it was and they arent sleeping on the ground. but the only reason they arent sleeping on the ground is because i moved them to clean and stuff. they will not last up there long like that. by tonight it will be the same old thing. id rather not take them out the take to get pictures of them awake unless you absolutely think it would be in their best interest so you can tell by their size. they have had a stressful night and morning.


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## frogface

Don't feel dumb. Sometimes you just know when something is wrong with your frog. I would not put them in their new tank, that you're building, until they have been cleared, health wise. Or, you'll have to tear it apart and start all over.

edit: oops I missed that there are pics of the frogs. Sorry! I can't see them from work.


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## mrzoggs

also. its not over humid in the first pic. it was all wet like that because i had just got finished misting. and there was terrarium moss in there and i have thrown that away since i got worried about them and heard it was bad for them. 

i took the pothos out of the tank they are in now. just because with the dirt and stuff that comes out i dont want to mistake it for poop. and i dont want the plant to be bothering them.

if there is anything i can do to definitely make sure they are in the best environment let me know.

i have the old 10 gallon that i can clean out and put papertowels in. let me know exactly what i need to do with it and what i need to put in there. paper towels, fake plants, etc if you think what they are in right now is whats harming them. 

i use only flukers super scrub to clean, nothing else.

its been very rainy outside recently and i live in the room over the garage so i feel like it would get humid in here since outside conditions affect inside my room a lot. 

i use a wall ac/heater...like the ones in hotel rooms. i keep the red light on 24/7 for heat and the black light on at night unless i need to bump the heat up in there. 

i have a humidifier in my room ive been using but hasnt been on the past couple days. its a ReliOn brand. 

i use smart sense brand purified water and buy it by the 2.5 gallon and i use deer park 100% natural spring water and buy it by the 2.5 gallon also.

i have never seen mold or anything growing in my tanks.

when i took them out to put them in the tubberwear tank i went to clean out the old one and noticed it was very wet in the bottom. so wet that when i tilted the tank up some water pooled up in the corners. could of caused some kind of bacteria? maybe? idk. 

i use latex gloves when handling. 

"she" has a lot of trouble sticking to the wall when wet. or when the wall is wet. "he" seems to never have trouble seeing as how i never see him struggling to get up a wet wall. maybe its just bad timing with her?

i will try to think of anything else i can and post it.


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## mrzoggs

frogface said:


> Don't feel dumb. Sometimes you just know when something is wrong with your frog. I would not put them in their new tank, that you're building, until they have been cleared, health wise. Or, you'll have to tear it apart and start all over.
> 
> edit: oops I missed that there are pics of the frogs. Sorry! I can't see them from work.


i cant thank you enough for all the help you have given me since ive been on this forum. im not even going to mess with their new tank too much since i cant seem to get them healthy. everything bit of information and help youve given me is greatly appreciated. 

and also...all the work ive done to their new tank has been inside my room. the same room they are in. great stuff foaming and siliconing mostly...but i opened the window to let out the fumes...plus they werent acting right before that. just figured id add that in there.


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## Ed

Were all three frogs captive bred? I'm asking because wild red eye treefrogs were still being imported as of last year (the results aren't in for this year). 

The repeated moves are probably one of the reasons they aren't feeding well. 
I noticed that you have the heat lamps on both day and night so I have to ask what is the actual temperature in the container? 

Have to noticed any retained shed on the ventral side of the frog from the pet store (or on the feet)? 

Ed


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## mrzoggs

Ed said:


> Were all three frogs captive bred? I'm asking because wild red eye treefrogs were still being imported as of last year (the results aren't in for this year).
> 
> The repeated moves are probably one of the reasons they aren't feeding well.
> I noticed that you have the heat lamps on both day and night so I have to ask what is the actual temperature in the container?
> 
> Have to noticed any retained shed on the ventral side of the frog from the pet store (or on the feet)?
> 
> Ed


the first two were definitely field collected. didnt realize it when i was ordering them. if you go to ************.com you will see. someone on frogforum posted about his frogs from the same website. here take a look

(took this out)

i wouldnt of oredered them from this website had i of known. i had just looked through so many and jumped on this because it was a deal. that was the first and the last time i would order from them again.

im not sure about the frog from the pet store. i know they always have a lot of exotic pets in there. some that they cant even sell. monitors that probably weigh more than me and all kinds of things. she was beautiful when i saw her there. 

i have not seen anything stuck to them. no shed or anything. i see them shed and open up their mouths and stuff like normal but i havent witnissed it since i put them in this tank. ive noticed sometimes if i startle them they change colors. and look kind of splotchy for a moment and it goes away.


also the exact temp is 82 degrees right now.


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## frogface

Living in southern VA, you probably don't need heat on them. My tree frogs are good with the ambient house temps; between 70-75 during the day and a bit cooler at night. If they are moving down to the bottom of the container, is it because it is too warm near the top?


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## mrzoggs

frogface said:


> Living in southern VA, you probably don't need heat on them. My tree frogs are good with the ambient house temps; between 70-75 during the day and a bit cooler at night. If they are moving down to the bottom of the container, is it because it is too warm near the top?


i have ac going in my room. its hard to keep it at an exact room temperature sometimes. if the weather outside changes then it changes in my room even if the ac is running. that might be part of the problem. but sometimes ive seen them right under the light for a couple days. then would move away from the light. i could try to keep my room a better temperature and leave the light off of them. my room was kind of cold this morning because it got rainy and cold outside and thats when i found them at the bottom.


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## frogface

It could be that she got sick from him. Did she go into the same tank that the one that died was in?


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## Ed

mrzoggs said:


> the first two were definitely field collected. didnt realize it when i was ordering them. if you go to you will see. someone on frogforum posted about his frogs from the same website. here take a look
> 
> i wouldnt of oredered them from this website had i of known. i had just looked through so many and jumped on this because it was a deal. that was the first and the last time i would order from them again.
> 
> im not sure about the frog from the pet store. i know they always have a lot of exotic pets in there. some that they cant even sell. monitors that probably weigh more than me and all kinds of things. she was beautiful when i saw her there.
> 
> i have not seen anything stuck to them. no shed or anything. i see them shed and open up their mouths and stuff like normal but i havent witnissed it since i put them in this tank. ive noticed sometimes if i startle them they change colors. and look kind of splotchy for a moment and it goes away.
> 
> 
> also the exact temp is 82 degrees right now.


I deleted the feedback from my quotes to save the mods some work... if you have an issue with a vendor it has to go in the vendor feedback section as the owner of the forum considers it a legal liability (which it certainly can be...). 

When dealing with wild caught frogs, it is often a crap shoot in getting them acclimated and stabilized regardless of who you get them from. Getting the best of an import does not mean that they will not show up with nose rubs or scratches/scrapes as the entire shipment can have them.... It also doesn't mean that the healthiest looking frogs are actually the healthiest since there are multiple things that can go wrong (which are typically lumped under maladaption syndrome). I typically do not consider a wild collected frog stabilized until well after six months. 

The color changing is normal (particularly if you are observing them after lights out). 
Where are you measuring the temperature and what are you using to measure the temperature? I'm focusing on the temperature at the moment since some of the behaviors can be lumped in with thermal stress. 

The more you mess with the frogs, the more that is likely to go wrong with them. Many frogs even those considered very hardy do not do well with constant disruption. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## frogface

For the record, I am new to tree frogs so pay little attention to me and lots of attention to Ed


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## Ed

mrzoggs said:


> i have ac going in my room. its hard to keep it at an exact room temperature sometimes. if the weather outside changes then it changes in my room even if the ac is running. that might be part of the problem. but sometimes ive seen them right under the light for a couple days. then would move away from the light. i could try to keep my room a better temperature and leave the light off of them. my room was kind of cold this morning because it got rainy and cold outside and thats when i found them at the bottom.


When do frogs in the wild have climate control for an exact temperature?/.. Often a day night drop is better for them as that is what they are adapted to in the wild.. If someone told you that they "must" be kept at 82 F all the time, then they have issues with what they think they know (several other less kind phrases came to mind and had to be erased..). The movement towards and away from the lights is normal and part of thier behavioral ecology for maintaining thier health. I've temperature gunned Dendropsophus ebracattus sleeping near power compact lights with a body temperature of well over 90 F.. (the temperature a couple of inches closer to the lights was well over 110 F)....


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## Ed

frogface said:


> For the record, I am new to tree frogs so pay little attention to me and lots of attention to Ed


You were doing fine. 

Ed


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## Ed

Did you quarantine the frog from the pet store before introducing it to the established frog? 
Have you had any fecal checks done on the frog(s)? 

Ed


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## mrzoggs

the temp isnt always at 82. just what it was the moment i checked. im using a pet store bought thermometer. the small circle ones that come with the hydrometer. the one died in a 10 gallon tank. the one that lived stayed in the 10 gallon tank for about 5 months maybe more. im not sure of exact dates. he did fine in there. then i bought the big tank. the same day i bought the big tank i set it up and moved him into it and also put the new store bought one in. i did not quarentine. a mistake on my behalf that probably will cause me a lot of money and time trying to correct. she was in there a few weeks and did ok for the first 2. thats when i started to notice the problem. but then she seemed ok for a couple days and i figured it was just me. thats when i decided to do the false bottom and moved them to the 30g containor. the first day they seemed happier in there then they were in the 30gallon tank. im trying to answer the questions i see. let me know if i miss any


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## mrzoggs

temperature has always been measured on the right side of my tank. almost all the way at the top. so that might be an issue on the actual temperature in the tank. where do you suggest i place it?


Edit: and i also deleted the name of the website and the thread from the other website. i apologize for any inconvenience. was not trying to bash the website. just strictly giving as much information as i can.

Edit again: no fecal checks have been done. the closest thing theyve had to a fecal check is me seeing their big poop on the wall or in their water and cleaning it.


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## Ed

First off, I'm going to suggest a better thermometer. Many of the one's the pet stores sell are inaccurate and do not survive the humid conditions in the frog's enclosure more than a few days. A indoor-outdoor digital thermometer with a remote probe can be purchased from many of the big box stores like Home Depot, Walmart, Kmart or on line. The thermometer itself stays outside of the tank and the probe is placed where you want to measure the temperature. It gives quick and much more accurate readings (often for less money) and can be disinfected between enclosures. 

You are going to want to measure the temperature in the enclosure at the top, the middle and the bottom of the enclosure. 

Another reason the frog's could be down on the substrate is too little humidity particularly if the tank was fairly dry and the substrate was moist (although with red eye treefrogs this is uncommon since they can retain water pretty well due to behaviors). 

Ed


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## mrzoggs

Ed said:


> First off, I'm going to suggest a better thermometer. Many of the one's the pet stores sell are inaccurate and do not survive the humid conditions in the frog's enclosure more than a few days. A indoor-outdoor digital thermometer with a remote probe can be purchased from many of the big box stores like Home Depot, Walmart, Kmart or on line. The thermometer itself stays outside of the tank and the probe is placed where you want to measure the temperature. It gives quick and much more accurate readings (often for less money) and can be disinfected between enclosures.
> 
> You are going to want to measure the temperature in the enclosure at the top, the middle and the bottom of the enclosure.
> 
> Another reason the frog's could be down on the substrate is too little humidity particularly if the tank was fairly dry and the substrate was moist (although with red eye treefrogs this is uncommon since they can retain water pretty well due to behaviors).
> 
> Ed


ok i will see how much i can get one for and see what i can do. hopefully i have the money because i have no idea how expensive they are. since i need to measure the top middle and bottom does that mean i have to get more than 1 thermometer??? im sure i cant afford 3 right now. or are there ones with more than 1 probe? should i keep the one i have in the tank and maybe put that in the middle or do you think it is innacurate? 

should i still try to force feed them tonight since i havent seen poop in 4 days? i feel like they may have eaten but im not sure at all. i tried dish feeding for the first couple days and the crickets just hopped out so i stopped doing that. but when it was in there i did she "her" perched on the side facing the other direction. 

should i try the pedialyte or just scratch that idea? i dont want to put them through more stress unless you think they would be better off.


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## mrzoggs

the ones ive seen with the probe are expensive so far. like 40 and up...so i dont know what would be my best bet. 

saw these though

Shop Garden Treasures Indoor/Outdoor Wall Thermometer with Humidity Meter at Lowes.com

or

http://www.lowes.com/pd_79632-53921...l__0__s?Ntt=thermometer+with+probe&facetInfo=


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## Ed

mrzoggs said:


> ok i will see how much i can get one for and see what i can do. hopefully i have the money because i have no idea how expensive they are. since i need to measure the top middle and bottom does that mean i have to get more than 1 thermometer??? im sure i cant afford 3 right now. or are there ones with more than 1 probe? should i keep the one i have in the tank and maybe put that in the middle or do you think it is innacurate?


I think the last I bought cost me $15..at Lowes. The probe is movable which means you can check the temperature in multiple spots with one thermometer. I would dump the one you currently have. 



mrzoggs said:


> should i still try to force feed them tonight since i havent seen poop in 4 days? i feel like they may have eaten but im not sure at all. i tried dish feeding for the first couple days and the crickets just hopped out so i stopped doing that. but when it was in there i did she "her" perched on the side facing the other direction.


If they were feeding normally before this point in time, I wouldn't jump to force feeding them yet since they should have some fat reserves. If your going to go to force feeding a smashed up cricket isn't the ideal food source since it won't travel through the syringe well. If your going that route, you should get someone with experience in tube feeding to show you the right way so you avoid squirting the food into the lungs of the animal which causes aspiration pneumonia (and potentially rapid death), and to use a good food source. Feline Clinicare (or similar cat liquid diet) http://www.amazon.com/CliniCare-Canine-Feline-Liquid-Diet/dp/tech-data/B0021WXUQQ is the standard used by many vets for tube feeding frogs. You can call some local vets and see if they will sell you a can (and see if they are willing to demonstrate tube feeding). 



mrzoggs said:


> should i try the pedialyte or just scratch that idea? i dont want to put them through more stress unless you think they would be better off.


Why do you want to soak them in diluted pedialyte? What is the rational for this action?


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## Ed

mrzoggs said:


> the ones ive seen with the probe are expensive so far. like 40 and up...so i dont know what would be my best bet.
> 
> 
> Shop AcuRite Thermometer with Submersible Probe at Lowes.com


If you look at the price of the second one, it is $6.73 cents...not $40 and up (which is why I specified *digital* indoor-outdoor thermometers with a temp probe)...... 

Ed


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## mrzoggs

Ed said:


> If you look at the price of the second one, it is $6.73 cents...not $40 and up (which is why I specified *digital* indoor-outdoor thermometers with a temp probe)......
> 
> Ed


yes i had spoke too soon. thats when i found this one. i didnt type probe in my search. i will try to find one tonight and will check the temperatures again.

from what i hear unflavored pedialyte restores some of the nutrients in their body that is not in regular water. i have seen alot of people use it for their tree frogs. they mix 1 part pedialyte with 10 parts water. 

after reading that...i dont want to force feed my frogs. i just want them to eat, be healthy, be happy, and take a poop......


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## frogface

That second one looks good. Then you just stick the probe where you want to get the temp. 

Here's a link to one of our sponsors that sells thermometers. Some of the ones offered do temps and humidity. The cheaper ones are down the page 

New England Herpetoculture LLC - Temperature Control


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## mrzoggs

frogface said:


> That second one looks good. Then you just stick the probe where you want to get the temp.
> 
> Here's a link to one of our sponsors that sells thermometers. Some of the ones offered do temps and humidity. The cheaper ones are down the page
> 
> New England Herpetoculture LLC - Temperature Control


thank you. i might get one of those in the future. as of now im going to try to get the one i posted since i can pick it up tonight.


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## Ed

mrzoggs said:


> yes i had spoke too soon. thats when i found this one. i didnt type probe in my search. i will try to find one tonight and will check the temperatures again.
> 
> from what i hear unflavored pedialyte restores some of the nutrients in their body that is not in regular water. i have seen alot of people use it for their tree frogs. they mix 1 part pedialyte with 10 parts water.
> 
> after reading that...i dont want to force feed my frogs. i just want them to eat, be healthy, be happy, and take a poop......


There is a lot of hype about pedialyte and much of it is wrong... See for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...orce-feeding-metabolic-needs-4.html#post62147

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/16433-emergency-supportive-care.html, 

Ed


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## mrzoggs

Ed said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...orce-feeding-metabolic-needs-4.html#post62147


im very glad you showed me this. i would of never known. i will keep an update on them and just let them be for now. they still havent moved since i took those pictures. im guessing the main things i need to do right now are

1. spray the stuff inside the tank for some more humidity, not just the paper towels. (and not spray the sides and get them soaked because then they cant make it up the sides)

2. pick up the thermometer i posted from lowes

3. keep my room a more steady temperature and try to keep there environment at a more steady temperature. 

4. post any updates on pooping. and floor sleeping on this thread.

and  ? 

if anything else needs to be added or if im incorrect let me know. these are my first frogs (besides when i was like 8 i had a fire belly toad) so im not as knowledgable as some others. i try my best and will research and study anything you feel i should know. i have care sheets and have read and read multiple times multiple different care sheets.


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## frogface

A bit of a temperature drop at night is good.


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## mrzoggs

frogface said:


> A bit of a temperature drop at night is good.


ok the red light has a dimmer know and i will turn that down tonight and check the temperature. if i have to ill turn it off.


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## andry

I have had red eye tree frogs and I will say that mine would sleep for days, can't remember exactly how many, but they would sleep day and night for days straight each time I moved them to a new enclosure. They all did this and it is very normal. They did not eat or poop during this time. After the few days all of a sudden they were up and around and sitting in their water bowl and happy as can be. 

Color changes are normal, they are not always that bright pretty green. 

What does concern me is them sleeping on the floor of the tank although mine would do this every once in a while for a few days and it would scare me but then act normal again. 

My best advice would be to leave them be unless you see them start loosing weight or walking clumsy. And with Red Eyes, it could seem they are walking clumsy or are weak when they are not. So, I guess maybe watch some youtube videos of them and get to know your own better before you move them anymore. 

I think they will come around. They just need some time to settle. New tank mates are also stressful to them so maybe the other is just sleeping more because there is a new frog in the tank. 

I say give them a good two weeks to settle in and give them a chance to act normal. If at that point they look sick or start loosing weight, then you should be worried.

This is all personal opinion on what my experiences have been. I will say several times I thought mine were sick and I worried a lot but if I waited it out they always turned out to be just fine. I hope this works for you too.

There is that chance that being wild caught and with all the stress that if they do have a disease it is now showing, but most of what you stated sounds normal for Red Eyes. 

I would also suggest to keep some Pothos in the tank. Just stick one end in their water bowl so that you don't confuse soil for poop and use a magnet hook or something to hang the other end up high so they are able to sleep on the leaves. I always did this in my quarantine tanks. They just love real leaves vs fake ones and glass walls. Mist lightly maybe once at night every day. Paper towels are fine. Don't change too often so you don't stress them out.


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## mrzoggs

andry said:


> I have had red eye tree frogs and I will say that mine would sleep for days, can't remember exactly how many, but they would sleep day and night for days straight each time I moved them to a new enclosure. They all did this and it is very normal. They did not eat or poop during this time. After the few days all of a sudden they were up and around and sitting in their water bowl and happy as can be.
> 
> Color changes are normal, they are not always that bright pretty green.
> 
> What does concern me is them sleeping on the floor of the tank although mine would do this every once in a while for a few days and it would scare me but then act normal again.
> 
> My best advice would be to leave them be unless you see them start loosing weight or walking clumsy. And with Red Eyes, it could seem they are walking clumsy or are weak when they are not. So, I guess maybe watch some youtube videos of them and get to know your own better before you move them anymore.
> 
> I think they will come around. They just need some time to settle. New tank mates are also stressful to them so maybe the other is just sleeping more because there is a new frog in the tank.
> 
> I say give them a good two weeks to settle in and give them a chance to act normal. If at that point they look sick or start loosing weight, then you should be worried.
> 
> This is all personal opinion on what my experiences have been. I will say several times I thought mine were sick and I worried a lot but if I waited it out they always turned out to be just fine. I hope this works for you too.
> 
> There is that chance that being wild caught and with all the stress that if they do have a disease it is now showing, but most of what you stated sounds normal for Red Eyes.
> 
> I would also suggest to keep some Pothos in the tank. Just stick one end in their water bowl so that you don't confuse soil for poop and use a magnet hook or something to hang the other end up high so they are able to sleep on the leaves. I always did this in my quarantine tanks. They just love real leaves vs fake ones and glass walls. Mist lightly maybe once at night every day. Paper towels are fine. Don't change too often so you don't stress them out.


i can put the pothos back in if you think it will be a good idea. its a neon pothos. i will use my suction cups with hooks to hang some of the leaves up. 

question about there poop. i normall see it like this. 










not exactly i guess but along the lines of that shape. but will they poop different? like the little dirt balls might not actually be dirt and could actually be poop? its very small stuff so i figured it wasnt poop.


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## Ed

Those could be fecals.

At this point, I would just stick with not disturbing them until you are sure they are eating well. 

Ed


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## mydumname

I know I read something about the dirt bottom....has a switch to paper towels been made? I am a big fan of the paper towels for these guys as it is more sterile than dirt. When the frog goes in water and then on dirt, the frog is a mess. 

If those are heat lights....I am gonna agree with what was previously said in that they are probably not necessary. Heat lights would also lower humidity levels. I feel a screened top for proper ventilation, no heat light, paper towel bottom, and a clean water bowl would be sufficient. Either your fake plant or a live one that has been cleaned and repotted could work too. 

I would put a second bowl to use for the crickets. This will keep them contained in one spot for easy access along with not allowing the crickets to crawl on the frogs. Also allows you to monitor the number being eaten each night.

I would take a less is more approach right now to there set up.

Comments or modifications to this are welcomed.


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## mrzoggs

mydumname said:


> I know I read something about the dirt bottom....has a switch to paper towels been made? I am a big fan of the paper towels for these guys as it is more sterile than dirt. When the frog goes in water and then on dirt, the frog is a mess.
> 
> If those are heat lights....I am gonna agree with what was previously said in that they are probably not necessary. Heat lights would also lower humidity levels. I feel a screened top for proper ventilation, no heat light, paper towel bottom, and a clean water bowl would be sufficient. Either your fake plant or a live one that has been cleaned and repotted could work too.
> 
> I would put a second bowl to use for the crickets. This will keep them contained in one spot for easy access along with not allowing the crickets to crawl on the frogs. Also allows you to monitor the number being eaten each night.
> 
> I would take a less is more approach right now to there set up.
> 
> Comments or modifications to this are welcomed.


thank you for your feedback. my room got a little chilly and i changed to a compact flourescent bulb for them. i will leave it on to keep a little warm air in there and turn it off at night. its currently 74 degrees in there. they are in the tubberwear with papertowels on the bottom. they did ok last night and was ok this morning. but one woke up and got on the bottom after i turned the lights on. im thinking either she didnt like the lights coming back on or she needed more humidity. shes currently sleeping at the bottom and i have sprayed in there to get it moist. i sprayed last night before bed and again this morning. i tried a dish but they hopped out. a few stayed in there but most were walking around after a day or so. they still havent pooped either. and its sad watching her sleep on the paper towels at the bottom. it was under the leaf of the pothos so maybe she wanted to get out the light.


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## mydumname

A cf bulb should be fine ....wont produce heat like a normal heat bulb.

Try a taller bowl for the crickets so they can't hop out. Also...are you feeding large crickets from a pet store?

Also wanted to add...when was the last time they ate? I know you said no pooping, but are they eating?


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## mrzoggs

nope. smalls. dusted every time. i will try a different bowl though. scared they wont find the bowl or wont eat from it. they havent eated in like 5 days now (that i know of) so i dont want to change up how they eat just yet.


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## mydumname

Ok that takes away my next comment if small. I use a clear bowl. I sometimes put crickets in the bowl and some out. So it wouldn't necessarily change it up. But as long as I see the ones in bowl missing, I know they are eating without having to go searching for any remaining crickets.

Hmm, with those changes having been made already, id have to say continue with Ed's recommendation of leaving them be the best you can until you see weight loss. Weight loss can go unnoticed to the eye though. A scale could help to track that. See if he has any more suggestions.


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## Gamble

I agree with what greg said ... glass/paper towel bottom, screened top, no heat lights and a clean water bowl (changed daily).

If u keep them in their own room and room temp is a concern, if u feel chilliness is a concern, buy a small space heater to keep the temp in the room where it needs to be, even when a/c is on in the rest of the house.

Also pls note, if you dont already own one, this is a perfect example of why a good therm/hygrometer is good thing to have. U can buy one from joshs frogs for about $20.

Also, them sleeping on the floor is normal. (They will do both: sleep on the glass and the floor)
I see it all the time and those frogs are healthy & normal ... it shouldnt be a concern.

Like someone else said, the constant moving could stress an already stressed out frog. Youre not giving them a chance to acclimate. 

Just cut down the changes that are not needed, and give them some time.
Follow the advice thats been givin to u and things should go ok.

Good luck.


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## mrzoggs

found this in there when i got home from getting them crickets










it came from "him"

she is still sleeping on the floor. crickets are in one of those sandwhich sized tubberwears. a few have already hopped out. but i guess thats better than a ton of them crawling on her at once.

temp is 74. also 74 in room. cfl is on. humidity is 52 in my room.


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## frogface

Their feeding dish should be glass or ceramic or very shiny and slippery plastic. Otherwise they can get a foothold and hop out.

Grats on the poo!!


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## mrzoggs

frogface said:


> Their feeding dish should be glass or ceramic or very shiny and slippery plastic. Otherwise they can get a foothold and hop out.
> 
> Grats on the poo!!


thank you. it was just all i had at the moment. they definitely got out the last one and it was a small metal cat bowl.


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## Ed

mydumname said:


> I know I read something about the dirt bottom....has a switch to paper towels been made? I am a big fan of the paper towels for these guys as it is more sterile than dirt. When the frog goes in water and then on dirt, the frog is a mess.


The problem with paper towels is that you have to repeatedly disrupt the frogs to clean and replace them.. when dealing with frogs that need to acclimate and settle down, paper towels can be far more problematic than beneficial. They are fine if you are looking for a fecal but as a longer term usage, not the best..... 

Ed


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## mydumname

I could see that. I also don't mist that often so the towel doesn't get that dirty quickly. What do you suggest as an alternative? I don't like the dirt bottom for them.


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## frogface

mydumname said:


> I could see that. I also don't mist that often so the towel doesn't get that dirty quickly. What do you suggest as an alternative? I don't like the dirt bottom for them.


What about nothing? Why do they need a substrate in a temp container? Serious question. I have my tree frogs on paper towels and I'm not sure why.


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## mydumname

I would imagine it could work. Guess we are probably so used to putting something there. I guess I use the paper towel so that I don't have to scrub anything off the bottom pane of glass. Haha. Really not much more purpose I suppose.


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## Ed

There are more than one way to handle it.. for example if the bottom is plumbed with a bulkhead, you can simply flush the tank without disturbing the frogs.. I'm not sure why there is a reticence about scrubbing the bottom when you typically have to scrub mucous and skin deposits off of the sides, scrubbing is scrubbing to me.... 

The idea is to set up the enclosure so it can be rinsed and cleaned without having to move the frogs as repeated moving can result in stress issues. 

Ed


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## WeeNe858

I skimmed through the thread so I apologize if I skipped it somewhere but what are you doing about the main enclosure?


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## Cfrog

Yay for Poo!


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## mrzoggs

yes  she still hasnt pooped yet. well...there is one very teeny tiny one in there. like 1/6th of the other poop. so idk if its poop or dirt. looks like poop but is very small. 

i came home last night and they were both awake. it was very dark in my room and they had no lights on. first time ive really ever seen them both at the bottom at the same time. they acted normal. and went and found them a place to sleep. i only kept the light in my room on enough to change clothes and hop in the bed. 

wake up this morning and she is on a leaf of the pothos close to the bottom. and he is all the way up at the top. he has been brighter than ever and she is still bright. 

and the main enclosure is still being worked on. im not in a rush to get it finished now because im more worried about my frogs health. even after i get it finished i will probably let it sit for a while and see how the plants do and see what temperature and stuff i can get in there. i want to make sure it all runs smoothly before i even think about moving my frogs. and they have had enough stress on them moving that i think they will be fine in what they are in for a while. she got moved from where she origionally came from, to the pet store, to my tank at home, to the non permanant tank shes in now. so thats 4 times in a little over a month and i didnt realize how much stress i probably put her under. 

and i would probably rather use paper towels than nothing at all because it seems more sanitary to me. unless you flush it like ed said. just seems easier to take paper towels out and put new ones in than to pick up every little turd piece by piece and try to find their pee spots and scrub and all that. if its all on the paper towel you just take it all out at once. just my two cents though.


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## frogface

She looks good in her pictures. I offer my tree frogs food every night, but, they only eat about every third night. These are not RTFs though. They are Phyllomedusa Tomopterna. Very cool frogs. You should add some to your collection 

Anyway, what I was trying to say is that don't worry if they don't eat every day. Do keep an eye on her, though, to make sure she starts eating eventually.


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## mrzoggs

hehe i told my girlfriend where you were located. we were thinking road trip one day haha. id like to see your set up and your frogs. i want to take pictures of them right now to show you how beautiful there color is this morning but i guess ill let them be for now hehe. maybe one day down the road we can trade some baby frogs 


edit: i googled those frogs. and i love em haha.


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## frogface

Sure thing! I'm all about trading frog babies


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## mrzoggs

frogface said:


> Sure thing! I'm all about trading frog babies


well looks like i already got a second project i need to work on. the rain chamber. hopefully i can get it going. that will be a little while down the road though. im not even sure if the one i have is female yet. shes bigger than him but not like the pictures i see. and i only hear him call.


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## mrzoggs

ok it was water changing time. and i had to grab some dead crickets out of the bottom. so i gave in...and snapped a couple quick pictures before i threw the lid on. they were sleeping so i hope they didnt notice. 

this is him









this is the "her" for now. until proven otherwise










she is the only one who touches the pothos. he likes to be up as high as possible. her...not so much. only sometimes.


oh...and in the top right corner of the second picture. there is a little tan colored thing. i dont know where it came from or what it is. it kind of looks like my chinese water dragons urine. but hers is way bigger. its just a small tan piece of something. would it of come from my frog?


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## mrzoggs

toes wont stick to side. toes were also curled backwards today when she was on the leaf. they were not touching the leaf at all. after i noticed, she climed to the bottom went to sleep. but then got back up and went on a low leaf again. they are light bent back to her eyes. not touching the leaf at all. any ideas? dr frye said hes more of a dart guy but has a hunch its a metabolic disorder. he recommended some vitamins. not just calcium with d3. anyone have any ideas?

and i watched her try to climb the side. nothing was wet. she hadnt touched her water bowl. she wont stick...


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## WeeNe858

I personally can't help you with the tree frogs as I have never kept any. I do have an idea or two for the final enclosure.

While you let the frogs rest, I think it would be a good idea to get the tank up asap in order to provide the frogs with the final comforts. Would you consider drilling the bottom of the tank in order for drainage? You would be able to place a layer of gravel as substrate and flood the bottom to do your cleaning instead of having to change paper towels. You can make a 3 sided background with lots of surface area and vines for the tree frogs to hang out on. And should 'she' really be a "she", you can create a drip tray top and run a pump in a bucket of water to the top and have a filter pouch to the drain outlet back into the bucket.... instant rain chamber!


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## mrzoggs

WeeNe858 said:


> I personally can't help you with the tree frogs as I have never kept any. I do have an idea or two for the final enclosure.
> 
> While you let the frogs rest, I think it would be a good idea to get the tank up asap in order to provide the frogs with the final comforts. Would you consider drilling the bottom of the tank in order for drainage? You would be able to place a layer of gravel as substrate and flood the bottom to do your cleaning instead of having to change paper towels. You can make a 3 sided background with lots of surface area and vines for the tree frogs to hang out on. And should 'she' really be a "she", you can create a drip tray top and run a pump in a bucket of water to the top and have a filter pouch to the drain outlet back into the bucket.... instant rain chamber!



might do something like that. ive already got the false bottom and the background in. and a pump ran in the false bottom. id hate to go tearing it all apart now. my girlfriend would probably kill me  but im sure i can kind of go your route. i kind of dont think the male can mount her that easily though. shes about a 1/4 inch bigger than him and her feet cant stick to anything. she spends most of her time on the bottom leaf of the plant. almost touching the ground. best colors on them ive ever seen in a while though. she might be able to climb the back wall easier though since its not slippery. id have to stratigically (spelled wrong) place some plants for her to drop eggs on and figure out where to put a water dish that will be deep enough and have something in there so the frogs can easily get out without drowning. my build thread is in parts and construction. under mrzoggs first.


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## mrzoggs

force fed tonight. been about an hour since. hopefully shes doing a bit better when i wake up. i will keep updating to let everyone know. male also pooped again. hes acting normal. been up as high as he can go. climbs all over walls like spiderman. everything is great with him. she was weird colors after force feeding. like a mixture. maybe she was just changing colors bc here lately her colors have been beautiful. 

anyways. thanks to everyone who has helped me. a big hug to Ed and frogface. 

goodnight.


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## mrzoggs

shes beautiful today. higher up than ive seen her in a long time. still on her pothos but at the top of it.


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## WeeNe858

I read your thread for the tank build and its moving in the right direction. Keep up that tender love and care, its definitely working!


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## crested

Hi,

I'm by no means an expert, barely into the hobby myself...

I don't know what timelines you're dealing with, but is it possible that the first frog was sick, and if not enough time had passed, the second frog was still carrying a disease when you introduced it to the new one?

Sounds like a real bummer of a situation...



mrzoggs said:


> im not even sure how to explain whats going on nor where to get started. ill start from the absolute beginning.
> 
> bought 2 red eyed tree frogs from undergroundreptiles.com, they were my first frogs ever. since they were not fully grown i kept them both in a 10 gallon tank. it was set up exactly how it was supposed to. eco eath, fake plants, shallow water dish, etc. within a week one of them died. it was acting funny the whole time. sleeping on the ground, dark colors, awake during the day, and just looked plain unhappy. since then i had kept the one that lived and he has been perfect. eats well. sits up high. good coloring. everything has went great. he had gotten bigger and it was time to move him into a new tank. i bought a 30g. 30x12x18. the same day i bought another red eyed tree frog from a local pet store. it was the last one they had and the first time i had seen them there. i will call her "she" for now. she was bright green in color. even brighter than i had ever seen "him". i took her home and set up the new tank. eco earth, fake plants, and a medium exoterra waterfall and fogger. they were fine in there for a while. now this past couple weeks she had been acting funny. sleeping lower. couldnt climb the wall due to her being wet from being in her waterdish, and just didnt seem normal. i have started a new build for the 30 gallon that includes a false bottom and other things and have put them both in a 30 gallon tubberwear. she was iffy in there also. they have been in there i think 4 days now. with crickets, and i havent seen one poop. unless its just too small to notice. i put a small pothos in there so there is a little bit of dirt. i washed off the pothos and replanted it in eco earth so it should be clean. he was acting fine in there, she was not. sleeping low once again. then in the middle of the night last night i peeked at them and noticed she was asleep on the ground. i took them both out and put them in a sandwhich size tubberwear containor and changed out the papertowels at the bottom incase they have peed on it. put them back in ther and she stayed on the wall. then i look in there 30 mins later and "he" is asleep on the ground. i was going to try a 10:1 pedialyte soak tonight and a force feed with a syringe and smushed up cricket. not sure exactly what im doing wrong. let me know what pictures you would like if any. they both look a little skinny i guess " im not a frog nutritionist so i wouldnt know" thank you for the help. i also emailed dr frye. not sure exactly what the problem is or how to take control of it. can really tell you the correct humidity because my hydrometer i bought from the pet store is junk and i feel like its wrong.


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## mrzoggs

crested said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm by no means an expert, barely into the hobby myself...
> 
> I don't know what timelines you're dealing with, but is it possible that the first frog was sick, and if not enough time had passed, the second frog was still carrying a disease when you introduced it to the new one?
> 
> Sounds like a real bummer of a situation...


well they both seem to be doing great now. so hopefully not. i came home today and hadnt been here for about 24 hours. she looks chubby like she ate while we were gone and she pooped. he is bright as ever and they are both hiding up in the leaves.


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## jeeperrs

I am super happy to read the turn around. I have been secretly cheering for you


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## mrzoggs

thank you  still gotta work on her toes and stuff but they are tucked up under her so i cant tell. i only see one toe at the moment instead of most of them like i did the other day. i will continue to force feed if she doesnt eat and hope for the best. if she ever gets right and im able to put her in the new tank, she will have much more stuff to climb on then besides just the glass.


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## mrzoggs

she is up on the side today. pretty as ever. first time ive seen her on the side in a while. hes hasnt even been sleeping on the side the past few days. hes in the leaves hehe. they have both been very active at night. he calls a lot. 

havent found poop in a couple days. so not sure if im going to have to force feed her again or not. i will wait a couple more days but force feeding seemed to do her some good last time so im not going to hesitate.


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## frogface

My tree frogs get food every night but only eat it every 3rd night or so. I'd wait a bit to see how they're doing before force feeding. It can be awfully stressful for them.


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## slipperheads

Dont force feed given the circumstances. Let "her" do her thing if her health is improving even if you dont see her eating all the time!!


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## mrzoggs

§lipperhead said:


> Dont force feed given the circumstances. Let "her" do her thing if her health is improving even if you dont see her eating all the time!!



its not that i dont see her eating. shes not pooping. so i know shes not eating. ive only found 1 poop from her since the beginning of this mess and it was after i force fed her. and ive found 2 poops from him and havent had to force feed him.


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