# gold terribilis: new species?



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

About Sean Stewart's gold terribilis, are they going to reclassify this frog as a new species or subspecies? I find taxonomy fascinating.  

Plus, have biologists decided yet if Dendrobates are more allied with Ranid frogs or leptodactylids?


----------



## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

*New Species*

The golden Bicolor, yes has been reclassified....


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Do you know what it is called? Is it a subspecies or species?


----------



## Marcus (Apr 18, 2004)

We want a picture 8)


----------



## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

we also want a name and the evidence for why it should be considered a different species.

Justin


----------



## Guest (Oct 2, 2004)

I have a bicolor that could almost pass for one of those but her belly is more of a broken black/yellow pattern then a solid one.
Mark


----------



## Guest (Oct 2, 2004)

*Gold Terribilis*

I was told by a large reliable breeder that had tad/toe clippings analyzed that they were ID as P. Bicolor. If he is telling me the truth, they are what they are.....
Mark


----------



## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

Yes it's true, we semt toe clippings, tads and live frogsto a lab where the DNA was compared with that of known bicolor and terribilis, the results were that they are gold bicolor.

Thanks
Eric


----------



## Guest (Oct 13, 2004)

*gold bicolor*

i have a gold bicolor that i purchased as a regular bicolor but it is completly golden orange. i actully had to have a DNA test to make sure it was a bicolor.


----------



## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

I am curious- What company or organization is performing these tests?

Are they cheap? 


Justin


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

andersonii85 said:


> I am curious- What company or organization is performing these tests?
> 
> Are they cheap?
> 
> ...


I don't know what commercial prices are but it shouldn't be too expensive. A few years ago I had some friends at the University I use to work at test what were at the time being called P. lugubris but are now commonly refered to as thin-striped vittatus. All had had to buy was the DNA primer that cost about $30 and my friend who's lab we used donated the amplification kit which would have cost about $15. There was a small fee for having the sequence run but since it was done along with a bunch of his research samples, that didn't cost anything either. One of his students donated the time to actually amplify the DNA and prepare it for sequencing. I should also add that when fellow froggers heard I was doing this, several contributed money so in the end all it really cost me was time in ordering the primers and making the other arrangements.


----------



## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

We sent the frogs free of charge to help out with an ongoing research project, so in this case there were no out of pocket costs except shipping. We got a copy of the analysis for the contribution. I will see if I can post the instituition and or if they are willing to take public submissions.

Thanks
Eric


----------



## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Plus, have biologists decided yet if Dendrobates are more allied with Ranid frogs or leptodactylids?


I realized that I have an answer to this question for you and never answered it... sorry. 

Here's the article:

Phylogeny and Classification of Poison Frogs, based on Mitochondrial 16S and 12S ribosomal RNA gene sequences. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution Volume 15 number 1. April, pp. 34-40, 2000.

Basically they claim that dendro's are more closely related to Leptodactylids.

If you need a copy of the article I can photocopy it for you.

Justin


----------



## Guest (Nov 27, 2004)

I would like a copy of it, you can email me at [email protected]


----------



## Guest (Nov 27, 2004)

when you guys are talking about "toe clippings" your not choppping the poor things toes off are you  :roll:


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually yes, they do clip the end of the toe off usually under anesthesia. In captive anurans this is not a big deal as any secondary infections can be dealt with readily and the toes often regrow after a period of time (at least in the several different species I have observed). The toes are clipped as opposed to sacrificing the entire frog for DNA analysis. 

There is some evidence that this may not be a good mark and recapture technique for population studies as in one study, the anurans that had more toes clipped were less likely to be recaptured indicating that they may have had an increased mortality. 

Ed


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

speaking of terribilis and bicolor, isn't P. lugibris really a morph of vittatus? That is what I heard......never mind, I didn't see it posted earlier that it is "thin striped vit."

As far as azureus goes, according to Yeager, azureus is just an all blue tinc, as far as genetics go. I personally just say D. tinctorius "azureus" despite that isn't readily accepted. 

I also just call D. amazonicus D. ventrimaculatus "red." But I believe some people have discovered amazons really ARE separate.

One thing I never understood, why don't we just make them subspecies? Subspecies DO differ slightly in genetics, so why has D. imitator intermedius earned itself as a subspecies (I think that is what I heard). I have wondered why things aren't P. terribilis bicolor or P. terribilis terribilis. 

Us carnivorous plant folks have a similar problem with Sarracenia rubra complex. So far, we have S. rubra rubra, rubra jonessi, rubra alabamensis, rubra wherryi, and rubra gulfensis. But so many people these day want to reclassify things simply as S. jonessi, which I don't go along with. We're also having a problem with the "burkei" form of S. purpurea venosa, some are trying to pass it as a different species, S. rosea. Bah, lets just call it S. purpurea burkei. 

Andersonii, yes, please send me a copy of this article that says they should be allied with leptodactylids. I somewhat disagree though. They seem like they'd be more closely related to ranids before the leptos.


----------

