# Tinctorius morph



## gekkotan

Well, I have been told these were collected in Brazil-Suriname borders and they are "Monte dourado", but, as Monte Dourado is located between Pará and Amapá states in Brazil, it should be wrong. I dont know if they really are "Monte dourado", "Tafelberg" or "Orantje Gebergte" (this is my guess). Let me know what you think.









Male's upper view









Male's left side









Male's right side









Female's upper view









Female's left side









Female's right side









Pair's right side









Female's Flanks

Thanks for any help and sorry for the blurry pics. My camera is too old and its time to buy a new one.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

I think you should quit buying WC frogs till you do some research and can learn how to care for dart frogs properly. And quit buying from dealers that don't know where the frogs came from.


----------



## Tony

gekkotan said:


> "Orantje Gebergte" (this is my guess). Let me know what you think.


That seems to be the most reasonable ID based on the collection info provided. The name "Oelemarie" is more commonly used in the US than "Oranje gebergte".



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> And quit buying from dealers that don't know where the frogs came from.


Assuming the info provided is true and accurate, that is much better than what is usually provided by the dealers.


----------



## gekkotan

Tony said:


> That seems to be the most reasonable ID based on the collection info provided. The name "Oelemarie" is more commonly used in the US than "Oranje gebergte".
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming the info provided is true and accurate, that is much better than what is usually provided by the dealers.


Thanks Tony. As I said in other topic, WC's are the only I can find for sale in my country. They are relative long term captives for at least 6 months. I dont know, but do you think the female got eggs? Looking at this pic (and personally of course) she looks very plumpy to me)


----------



## DF20

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I think you should quit buying WC frogs till you do some research and can learn how to care for dart frogs properly. And quit buying from dealers that don't know where the frogs came from.


I think you should say something constructive instead of trying to push your paradigm of PDFs. He asked what you thought they were, not if he should or should not buy WC. 

Man these junior members sure are getting out of control. Feisty, arrogant, and disrespectful.


----------



## Tony

gekkotan said:


> Thanks Tony. As I said in other topic, WC's are the only I can find for sale in my country. They are relative long term captives for at least 6 months. I dont know, but do you think the female got eggs? Looking at this pic (and personally of course) she looks very plumpy to me)


I didn't realize you were outside of the US, in that case "Oranje gebergte" may be a more recognizable name in your country. Your female does look plump, I wouldn't be surprised if she had eggs. It is common for _D. tinctorius_ (and most other dart frogs) to lay eggs all year long if they are kept under wet conditions, they are not as seasonal as many other herps.


----------



## Baltimore Bryan

gekkotan said:


> Thanks Tony. As I said in other topic, WC's are the only I can find for sale in my country. They are relative long term captives for at least 6 months. I dont know, but do you think the female got eggs? Looking at this pic (and personally of course) she looks very plumpy to me)



They look good to me, and yes, I think the female looks ready to lay eggs. She is very plump  I understand you want to keep a simple enclosure- but here is one suggestion to make a tank where they would be more likely to breed while still keeping it basic. If you can find some sphagnum moss and leaf litter, you should be fine. A thin layer of moss covered in a layer of leaf litter is inexpensive and easy to replace. Keep your two coco-huts and potho (and another potho or two if you can), mist the tank, give them space, and you should have eggs within a couple of weeks. 
Good luck,
Bryan


----------



## HunterB

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I think you should quit buying WC frogs till you do some research and can learn how to care for dart frogs properly. And quit buying from dealers that don't know where the frogs came from.


There is really no reason to be so hostile....

Ignoring that when did his husbandry come into question?
And plus he's specified that he can only get WC where he is so its not as if he has a great many options.


----------



## gekkotan

Thanks for the help guys. I will try my best and I hope I can post some pictures of a sucessful breeding in near future.


----------



## frogmanroth

They look like my WC alanis.


----------



## siples

That kind of nasty criticism is exactly why I don't post very often on this board, while some of the same old questions become tiresome lashing out at legitimate question is uncalled for and rude!!!!


----------



## heatfreakk3

As said before, that kind of talk is really not approprite here Rusty. From reading your post it just seems like your actually trying to pick a fight with this guy or something... If all you have to say is something nasty, then just say anything.


----------



## heatfreakk3

Oh and I do agree with frogmanroth, they kind of look like Alanis to me.


----------



## jubjub47

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I think you should quit buying WC frogs till you do some research and can learn how to care for dart frogs properly. And quit buying from dealers that don't know where the frogs came from.


At no point in his post does he comment on husbandry or show pics that suggest poor husbandry. I suggest taking a step back and going over what you want to say in your head before you make yourself look like an ass again.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

It`s probably just the camera angle, the frog in that last picture looks HUGE!!!

John


----------



## Woodsman

I find it hard to believe that there are countries that don't permit breeding of dart frogs. So, if these frogs breed, then all the progeny will have to be destroyed?

Wild collecting IS bringing down wild populations and someday, somewhere, some hitherto unknown illness will come out of the tropics and wreak havoc on our hobby frogs. I say NO to frog AIDS!

Richard.



gekkotan said:


> Thanks Tony. As I said in other topic, WC's are the only I can find for sale in my country. They are relative long term captives for at least 6 months. I dont know, but do you think the female got eggs? Looking at this pic (and personally of course) she looks very plumpy to me)


----------



## gekkotan

Thanks for more repplies. Tim, Rusty reacted this way just because I asked in another topic if its possible to breed PDF's in the quarantine simple cage, with paper towel as substrate. These were kept for a month in one and now, as you can they, they are much better housed and I will do more changes for better soon.

John, they are big but not huge. I would say average.

Richard, in my country (which I prefer do not say the name) is forbbiden to keep any herp but a few microchiped ones from a few species. 3 species of snakes and 2 of lizards. No amphibians instead. I keep mine illegaly and the offspring will be kept with me. If they reproduces too much, I will trade them for another herps with outlaws keepers


----------



## Woodsman

So we're not just talking about wild-collected frogs. In your country (wherever it is), these frogs would also be considered smuggled. You seem pretty proud to be announcing your illegal activities to the larger frog community. I hope you don't expect a lot of applauds for your activities (and shame on any members here to do applaud illegal and smuggled frogs!)

Richard.



gekkotan said:


> Thanks for more repplies. Tim, Rusty reacted this way just because I asked in another topic if its possible to breed PDF's in the quarantine simple cage, with paper towel as substrate. These were kept for a month in one and now, as you can they, they are much better housed and I will do more changes for better soon.
> 
> John, they are big but not huge. I would say average.
> 
> Richard, in my country (which I prefer do not say the name) is forbbiden to keep any herp but a few microchiped ones from a few species. 3 species of snakes and 2 of lizards. No amphibians instead. I keep mine illegaly and the offspring will be kept with me. If they reproduces too much, I will trade them for another herps with outlaws keepers


----------



## Dendro Dave

Woodsman said:


> So we're not just talking about wild-collected frogs. In your country (wherever it is), these frogs would also be considered smuggled. You seem pretty proud to be announcing your illegal activities to the larger frog community. I hope you don't expect a lot of applauds for your activities (and shame on any members here to do applaud illegal and smuggled frogs!)
> 
> Richard.


Personally if his country is that restrictive I don't have much problem with an underground herp hobby existing there especially if the species are legally exported to other countries and aren't much threat of becoming invasive in the illegal country. If they are then thats another issue and I'm not likely to support those animal being introduce there legally or illegally. All things being equal the WC bothers me more then the rest, but If they are frogs that could legally be exported to other countries and aren't under a great deal of pressure and shipped responsibly I don't have much problem with that either. If there is to be an underground hobby the animals have to come from somewhere and I personally feel people everywhere should have the same rights we do. I may not have the right to overthrow their government and 'liberate" them...but I can stand idle and smile slyly when they get away with being subversive as long as it isn't at much more risk to the animals then they are subjected to in our hobby here.


----------



## gekkotan

Woodsman said:


> So we're not just talking about wild-collected frogs. In your country (wherever it is), these frogs would also be considered smuggled. You seem pretty proud to be announcing your illegal activities to the larger frog community. I hope you don't expect a lot of applauds for your activities (and shame on any members here to do applaud illegal and smuggled frogs!)
> 
> Richard.


Well Richard, I am not a smuggler. Thats true, I have some illegal animals due to the laws of my country, but this dont bother me. The only difference I can not tell everybody here I keep these animals, but this doesnt matter as I can care about them and even reproduces them. This is not right by the legislation, but not wrong by the ethical aspect. Honestly, I do prefer things are this way. If you consider any country where this hobby is allowed, as USA, you will see MANY animals collected (not restricted to PDF's) from poor, colonial countries, where people do this for survive, coming in to the market and sold cheaper than the structure necessary to keep them well. Will see many kids with no experience or parent supervision (or even the pet shops) keeping poorly the animals and I cant imagine how many of them die. Another problem, which is the one that suports the laws against herp keeping in my country, is that many of them are released in the wild and will compete for resourses with the local species, with many losses for these.

As you can find a little black market in my country, these problems do occur here too, but in a MUCH lower rate. As its somewhat difficult and risky to get these species and they are more expensive than usual (here the most common exotic species are leopard geckos and corn snakes. A normal, wild pattern for the hatchlings of these species can cost 150$ and 70$) most of the keepers are the ones who really wants to keep herps, learns a lot about herp keeping and do really keep them well. Repeating: by the law its wrong what I do, but ethically, not so in the countries where this is permitted.

I am not proud about my activies. I am here just to learn and, why not, share experiences.


----------



## billschwinn

I was just thinking it sounds like he lives in a future US if our govt and Humaniacs have there way!


----------



## Ed

gekkotan said:


> Richard, in my country (which I prefer do not say the name) is forbbiden to keep any herp but a few microchiped ones from a few species. 3 species of snakes and 2 of lizards. No amphibians instead. I keep mine illegaly and the offspring will be kept with me. If they reproduces too much, I will trade them for another herps with outlaws keepers


That sounds a lot like Norway.. 
http://www.animalprotectionagency.com/norway/norwegian-reptiles.pdf


Ed


----------



## Woodsman

You're not making much sense here. You are saying that you are better than the Americans who buy frogs from poor colonial countries, but you have said here that your frogs are wild-collected (!) Is there some tropical country where D. tinctorius is indigenous that is rich and sovereign that is where your frogs are from? They are the same aweful frogs collected under appaling conditions, the great majority of which die horrible deaths in transit to the "advanced" nations of the world.

Also, if your frogs are not permitted in your country and they were wild-collected, then they were smuggled and you are a smuggler. Buying a frog from a smuggler makes you a smuggler (this is a reality that many Americans also have some problems realizing, so it is understandable).

I appreciate youy honesty about this and hope others can learn a bit about how wild-collected frogs make there way across the planet. Maybe there's a good reason that your country determined to restrict this activity, one that the U.S. has yet to realize.

Richard.



gekkotan said:


> Well Richard, I am not a smuggler. Thats true, I have some illegal animals due to the laws of my country, but this dont bother me. The only difference I can not tell everybody here I keep these animals, but this doesnt matter as I can care about them and even reproduces them. This is not right by the legislation, but not wrong by the ethical aspect. Honestly, I do prefer things are this way. If you consider any country where this hobby is allowed, as USA, you will see MANY animals collected (not restricted to PDF's) from poor, colonial countries, where people do this for survive, coming in to the market and sold cheaper than the structure necessary to keep them well. Will see many kids with no experience or parent supervision (or even the pet shops) keeping poorly the animals and I cant imagine how many of them die. Another problem, which is the one that suports the laws against herp keeping in my country, is that many of them are released in the wild and will compete for resourses with the local species, with many losses for these.
> 
> As you can find a little black market in my country, these problems do occur here too, but in a MUCH lower rate. As its somewhat difficult and risky to get these species and they are more expensive than usual (here the most common exotic species are leopard geckos and corn snakes. A normal, wild pattern for the hatchlings of these species can cost 150$ and 70$) most of the keepers are the ones who really wants to keep herps, learns a lot about herp keeping and do really keep them well. Repeating: by the law its wrong what I do, but ethically, not so in the countries where this is permitted.
> 
> I am not proud about my activies. I am here just to learn and, why not, share experiences.


----------



## Gamble

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I think you should quit buying WC frogs till you do some research and can learn how to care for dart frogs properly. And quit buying from dealers that don't know where the frogs came from.


Totally unneccesary and uncalled for ... nuff said


----------



## Gamble

Woodsman said:


> Also, if your frogs are not permitted in your country and they were wild-collected, then they were smuggled and you are a smuggler. .


Name calling and unneccesary comments doesnt help the person. He already has them in his possession and nothing u say will change that. Theres no need for the "high and mighty" attitude ... 

the guy came here for help, so either help or keep the hostilities to yourself. My mother always taught me if u dont have something nice to say, then dont say anything at all. 

its understandable that u feel the way u do, but is it really neccesary to lash out?


----------



## gekkotan

No Richard, I am not saying at any instance that me and/or my country are better than americans, USA or any other country pr people. Obviously we can describe some situations where one country solves their problems better than the other (I would even say that USA is a lot more well sucedeed in more aspects than my own country indeed), but I think forbiddeness is better for local fauna conservation and why not, it keeps low the number of reptile and amphibians pets death, at least here, where the illegaly forces a selection of keepers, more inclinable to break the laws so, I could say that these could be more passionated and esforced. Not everybody would take the risk of be in jail or pay fines just to keep a frog. But I am not saying by any means that that esforced people dont occur in the rest of the world. Here there is not the situation where you goes to a pet store, see a beautiful animal that a first time herp keeper never heared the name and makes an impulse buy which results in a posterior death. This for me is benefic.

I dont think you should call me a smuggler as I just bought a pair of tincs from a guy who exports these to USA and EU. I dont think it makes me a smuggler. If so, we just could say that if you or anyone you knows who haves brazilian cobalts, galacts, castaneoticus and vanzos are smugglers, no mattering who were these bought from as these species were never legally exported from Brazil for example.




Gamble said:


> Name calling and unneccesary comments doesnt help the person. He already has them in his possession and nothing u say will change that. Theres no need for the "high and mighty" attitude ...
> 
> the guy came here for help, so either help or keep the hostilities to yourself. My mother always taught me if u dont have something nice to say, then dont say anything at all.
> 
> its understandable that u feel the way u do, but is it really neccesary to lash out?


Thanks for your comment Gamble


----------



## Gamble

gekkotan said:


> Thanks for your comment Gamble



No thanks needed. u came for help ... ( i apologize i could not assist u in that area). Is it illegal to have these animals where u r from? sure.
Does that make u a "smuggler"? No it doesnt.

U purchased wild caught frogs from another owner; its not like u flew to Brazil or wherever and stole them from the wild; and to say the other person u bought them from was a smuggler is a bit presumptuous IMO. Ur no different than anyone else who purchases WC frogs; diff is that its illegal where u r from.

Criminal; thats debatable (as per ur countries laws). A bit unwise? Maybe. Impulsive? Probably ... 
But in no way does that make u a bad person; or deserving to be "yelled" at by other grown adults. ur not a child.

Atleast u came here for info and advice, so that cant make u all bad can it?!!
Some people wouldnt even do that.

Good Luck to u and I hope all works out well. Take Care.


----------



## stemcellular

Woodsman said:


> So we're not just talking about wild-collected frogs. In your country (wherever it is), these frogs would also be considered smuggled. You seem pretty proud to be announcing your illegal activities to the larger frog community. I hope you don't expect a lot of applauds for your activities (and shame on any members here to do applaud illegal and smuggled frogs!)
> 
> Richard.


Would you extend this sentiment to all those members that keep PDFs in say, Connecticut (where they are illegal), Richard? By extension of your argument, if you agree to sell frogs to a member in CT you are involved in smuggling, no? 

While I wouldn't necessarily applaud outright violation of a sovereign nations laws (esp. one to which I don't belong) I would say that I have zero issue with the keeper so long as the frogs in question aren't being smuggled from their point of origin, ie, if they are leaving Suriname legally, then there is zero difference between them and the tincs imported to the U.S. in my humble opinion.

Btw, nice frogs!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

stemcellular said:


> Would you extend this sentiment to all those members that keep PDFs in say, Connecticut (where they are illegal), Richard? By extension of your argument, if you agree to sell frogs to a member in CT you are involved in smuggling, no?
> 
> While I wouldn't necessarily applaud outright violation of a sovereign nations laws (esp. one to which I don't belong) I would say that I have zero issue with the keeper so long as the frogs in question aren't being smuggled from their point of origin, ie, if they are leaving Suriname legally, then there is zero difference between them and the tincs imported to the U.S. in my humble opinion.
> 
> Btw, nice frogs!


Uh oh.

John


----------



## frogface

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Uh oh.
> 
> John


Busted!!!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

frogface said:


> Busted!!!


Wouldn`t be the first time.

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

I'm calling crime stoppers....maybe with the reward, I'll finally be able to afford some Benedicta!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Dendro Dave said:


> I'm calling crime stoppers....maybe with the reward, I'll finally be able to afford some Benedicta!


Never figured you for a snitch Dave......

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Never figured you for a snitch Dave......
> 
> John


LoL....no I'm not, you're all safe from me


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Dendro Dave said:


> LoL....no I'm not, you're all safe from me


Atta boy!!!

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Atta boy!!!
> 
> John


...But I expect discounted Benedicta from breeders in the area


----------



## Tony

Gamble said:


> Name calling and unneccesary comments doesnt help the person. He already has them in his possession and nothing u say will change that. Theres no need for the "high and mighty" attitude ...


You'll have to forgive Richard, he has the only frogs in the hobby which do not descend from wild ancestors, they spontaneously generated in his vivs and lent him a feeling of great superiority over us lowly smugglers.


----------



## Gamble

Tony said:


> You'll have to forgive Richard, he has the only frogs in the hobby which do not descend from wild ancestors, they spontaneously generated in his vivs and lent him a feeling of great superiority over us lowly smugglers.


LOL. Kinda like Anakin Skywalker and the midiclorians? ;-) ... maybe theyre Poison "Darth" Frogs! ... (hee hee)


----------



## Dartfrogfreak

Found this thread during a Google search for the morph 'Monte Dourado'.

I was disappointed to find the photo links no longer working.

What country are you in?

I do agree WC are for the more experienced. they tend to be a little more finicky as you are taking a wild animal from its natural environment and putting in an enclosure that is a tiny fraction of its natural domain. However if thats all you can get.. thats all you can get. Just remember to do some research before purchases and not be spontaneous with buying the animals and you should do well.

To the negative people.. Instead of bashing the new people.. why not be nicer and steer them to be a little more cautious about purchasing animals that require more experience or research. This board is for the sharing of knowledge with EVERYONE. Lets not be jerks to newcomers which will probably just push them out of it!

Id love to hear how these frogs are doing these days as well as see some photos!


Todd


----------



## Allyn Loring

Hey Todd,
I believe that tinc morph is found on the "tropical experience" web site!


----------



## Dartfrogfreak

Sure is. which is where I found out about it... but only sooo much can be told from 2 photos LOL

Looks strikingly like Oelemarie on the Tropical Experience site.. but from French Guiana.




Todd


----------

