# Conjoined twin tadpoles!



## khoff

I found something very unusual the other day in the frog room. One of the eggs in a clutch from my mint terribilis had conjoined twin tadpoles. Now I've been breeding darts for over 10 years and have seen more than my fair share of the double tad in egg, but this is something entirely different. The pair of terribilis that produced this have been breeding consistently over 8 years and have probably given me more than 500 eggs....and this is the first I've seen anything like this. Well, see the pictures for yourself below. They are pictured next to a normal developing egg from the same clutch.

*3 days ago*



















*Today*










Kevin


----------



## frogface

Neat!


----------



## frogfannumero1

That is very odd and very interesting to see as well. Thanks for posting!


----------



## hypostatic

Hmm interesting. It doesn't look like it'll be viable/hatch when you compare it to a normal egg from the same clutch


----------



## ConFuCiuZ

Will they survive? Hmmm. Goodluck with them .


----------



## khoff

Honestly, I'm surprised they made it this far, but I have seen them moving in the egg. Also, it appears they have gills formed as well, but yes, they are significantly further behind in development. I will keep everyone updated on their progress.

Kevin


----------



## guylovesreef

Survive or not, given the time you said you've been doing this and the amount of eggs you've gotten from that pair...this being your first conjoined like that has to be cool to watch and do keep the updates coming


----------



## Ed

If you look at the pictures, the interesting thing is that the body has been fusing together over time. I wonder how far it will fuse before it hatches? 

Ed


----------



## froggirl

Never seen that before .


----------



## khoff

+1 day from original post. One of the heads seems to be developing faster than the other (the darker one). You can see the eyes on both starting to develop.













Kevin


----------



## Robzilla56

I can't wait to see what happens!


----------



## Woodsman

I would post it for sale immediately on Kingsnake for ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

Good luck getting it to hatch successfully.

Richard.


----------



## nburns

Very cool!


----------



## oneshot

Ed, if it does or does not hatch, any reason to keep it for science? Would any institution want it?


----------



## Ed

oneshot said:


> Ed, if it does or does not hatch, any reason to keep it for science? Would any institution want it?


Good question, don't know the answer off hand.. JP (MonarchzMan) may be better able to answer the question. 

I doubt most zoos or aquariums would be interested in it. 
Ed


----------



## khoff

To be honest, I didn't think it would last past the day I found it. The egg was cloudy and the yolk bloated....I even almost tossed it thinking it was just another bad egg. Since then, it looks healthier day by day...the cloudiness has gone away and the yolk looks back to normal (as normal as it gets with two heads attached). I'm going to try to post daily photo updates to record it's development.

Kevin


----------



## Shinosuke

khoff said:


> I'm going to try to post daily photo updates to record it's development.


Please, do!


----------



## kingfisherfleshy

I would love to add a polycephalic frog to our preserved collection here @ UWSP (University of Wisconsin @ Stevens Point).

Please let me know if it dies - frezing it is the best thing to do without formalin - otherwise I might be able to get you a container. 

This is definitely rare IMO - reptiles are fairly common and we have a calf in our collection currently. 

Specimen would be used for education.


----------



## Ed

kingfisherfleshy said:


> I would love to add a polycephalic frog to our preserved collection here @ UWSP (University of Wisconsin @ Stevens Point).
> 
> Please let me know if it dies - frezing it is the best thing to do without formalin - otherwise I might be able to get you a container.


Actually wouldn't putting it into 75% ethanol work until he could get it into formalin? 

Some pharmacies will sell small amounts of formalin but then you would need a formalin stable container. 

Ed


----------



## MonarchzMan

I would suggest putting it in ethanol first before it gets to a collection so that DNA issue may be harvested first. Once it goes into formalin, DNA is useless. I can't think of anything off the top of my head to use the DNA for, but I am sure there are uses and it'd be a shame to lose such an opportunity!


----------



## khoff

For ethanol preservation, can this be done with a 151 or 190 proof grain alcohol? (Thought I read that somewhere). I would love to be able for this tad(s) to be able to contribute to science if/when they die. If they die in the egg or tadpole stage, I'm worried decomposition would be fast and they may no longer be a preservable specimen. I will do what I can though.

Kevin


----------



## bobrez

190 proof grain alcohol I use this for everything  think it will work


----------



## MonarchzMan

khoff said:


> For ethanol preservation, can this be done with a 151 or 190 proof grain alcohol? (Thought I read that somewhere). I would love to be able for this tad(s) to be able to contribute to science if/when they die. If they die in the egg or tadpole stage, I'm worried decomposition would be fast and they may no longer be a preservable specimen. I will do what I can though.
> 
> Kevin


For short term preservation until you can get it to a scientist who would use it, I don't think there would be issue with using those. They would then likely be transferred to 95% ethanol and frozen. I would guess at most, it would be in the 151 or 190 grain alcohol for a week, and I doubt there would be problem with that.

Decomposition is definitely a big concern. If it dies in the egg or tadpole stage (egg especially), you'd definitely have to get it quickly.


----------



## khoff

+2 days from original post. The egg/tads are still alive and developing. One head appears to be coloring up nicely and developing properly. I'm not sure about the other head though...so far it's colorless and appears to be developing slower. In this picture you can see the developed eyes much clearer. Also one thing I found interesting is if you look at the spots on the skin (like the ones on the healthy tad), you can see areas of fused skin around a portion of the yolk. I'm rooting for these little guys pretty hard now. 











Kevin


----------



## Ed

It looks almost like it is going to end up as a parasitic twin. The problem may be when it gets closer to the merging of the heads, it may end up being unable to feed due to the deformation of the twin heads.. 

Ed


----------



## volsgirl

This is so cool !!! 

I really hope it/they make it.

I'll be praying hard for a healthy two-headed frog, capable of feeding and adapting with it's condition!

Good Luck.


----------



## JeremyHuff

MonarchzMan said:


> For short term preservation until you can get it to a scientist who would use it, I don't think there would be issue with using those. They would then likely be transferred to 95% ethanol and frozen. I would guess at most, it would be in the 151 or 190 grain alcohol for a week, and I doubt there would be problem with that.


190 proof = 95% ethanol. You can also get Ever Clear or the like which is 200 proof = 100% ethanol. This will work for DNA preservation as well.


----------



## Kierik

Careful with greater than 75% ethanol it has a tendacy to distroy tissue. 

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


----------



## MonarchzMan

Kierik said:


> Careful with greater than 75% ethanol it has a tendacy to distroy tissue.
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


Can you elaborate on what you mean? It is standard practice to store tissue samples in 95% ethanol...


----------



## kingfisherfleshy

Great to see the frogs still developing - turtles are known to be able to live average lives in captivity with proper care in the polycephalic condition. 

That being said, for perserving the specimen in formalin is the only way to perserve the tissue perfectly between the two. Once the specimen is embalmed, it can be moved to alcohol. 

Putting a specimen directly into ethanol etc will pull the fluid from the cells - this is why you get hungover when you drink as well. What you end up with is a wrinkly, disformed specimen. Great for DNA - not so good for looking. 

DNA will be ruined by putting it into formalin as pointed out - not certain if we would want DNA, technically Im just a student but I run the icthyology side of our collection/and collections. I will ask some of the more senior herp employees.

Im big on the museum part (although our fish collection is 100% comprised of fish that I have brought in) and so having a frog like this would be awesome. 

Hope I answered some questions here...

Some Ramblings, 

Fleshy


----------



## khoff

+3 days from original post. Today the tadpoles actually broke through the egg. While it is very early for this to be happening, it is relatively common with my terribilis eggs (hatching with visible yolk sacks) and they still develop normally. As you can see the normal tad is hatching as well. They are perfectly alive and occasionally moving in response to stimuli. Both heads are continuing to develop while one still appears behind. Ignore the harmless free-living nematodes....they find their way into all my egg clutches.












Kevin


----------



## kingfisherfleshy

Heres hoping it keeps growing!


----------



## JayMillz

Are you going to give "it" or "them" a name?


----------



## khoff

JayMillz said:


> Are you going to give "it" or "them" a name?


Ha, no I won't be naming it unless it actually morphs healthy.

Kevin


----------



## khoff

+4 days from original post. The heads are continuing to develop and slowly gain size. They haven't completely emerged from the egg sack and I don't want to move them around too much. I did pull back the egg sack enough that it's away from their heads though.











Kevin


----------



## salth2oj

What type of camera are you using? These pictures are amazing!!


----------



## Ed

You may want to slide the last of the egg case back from the body since it can retain waste products like ammonia while it continues to degrade... Keep in mind that those waste products can be absorbed through the skin... 

Ed


----------



## bobrez

salth2oj said:


> What type of camera are you using? These pictures are amazing!!


Yes what he said Keep up the good work


----------



## khoff

Ed said:


> You may want to slide the last of the egg case back from the body since it can retain waste products like ammonia while it continues to degrade... Keep in mind that those waste products can be absorbed through the skin...
> 
> Ed


Very good point. I intend to pull the egg case off fully today when I get home from work. I was hesitant to do it yesterday because some part of the case was still catching on the tadpoles and I would have had to jostle them around a lot to free it. I almost need a dissecting microscope to deal with these guys....they are TINY.

Kevin


----------



## khoff

salth2oj said:


> What type of camera are you using? These pictures are amazing!!


The camera is a Panasonic Lumix DMC-TS3. I have been pretty impressed with it's macro capabilities and picture quality.

Kevin


----------



## salth2oj

khoff said:


> The camera is a Panasonic Lumix DMC-TS3. I have been pretty impressed with it's macro capabilities and picture quality.
> 
> Kevin


As well as I am, need to place that on my Christmas wish list.
Thanks
Jim


----------



## volsgirl

khoff said:


> Ha, no I won't be naming it unless it actually morphs healthy.
> 
> Kevin


When they do (positive Thinking), You've got to name them "The Double Mint Twins"


----------



## khoff

Bad news. I came home from work today to find the tadpole(s) dead, and as I expected might happen, decomposed too far to be of any use. They had made it fully out of the egg but must not have lasted very long afterwards. 

Kevin


----------



## Dev30ils

Damn, that sucks.


----------



## frogface

Oh no. RIP little 2 tad thing.


----------



## kingfisherfleshy

RIP - sorry to hear of your loss. This certainly was special. An honor really to witness someething like this happen.


----------



## crested

What a cliffhanger of a post! Was really rooting for these guys. 

Too bad


----------



## Palehorse0321

That sucks but thanks for showing...


----------



## dflorian

You had quite an interesting bit of teratology to track in your home lab Kevin "Dr. Frankenstein" Hoff. Thanks for showcasing their development to their potentially free swimming stage. 

RIP little outlier ... Sometimes 2 heads aren't better than 1.


----------



## RibbidyReptiles

Sorry for the lost Thanks for sharing with us though.


----------

