# Pumilio Seizures



## ESweet (Apr 13, 2009)

Hopefully this will serve to help others or for others to help me =D

As far as I know there are four potential non-genetic causes of seizures in Pumilio.
1- CO2 Toxicity
2- Calcium Deficiency [Little more complex than this, but hypocalcemia]
3- Temperatures
4- Stress

I have LOTS of pumilio and I rarely see problems, but I've seen this twice recently. I feed almost daily, with a rotation of Rep-Cal w/ Vit D3, Rep-Cal Herptivite w/ Beta Carotene Repashy Calcium + ICB and Repashy SuperMin. All are fresh and stored in the coolest driest place to prevent oxidation. The temperature of this frog room is around 71 [according to the AC], around 72-73 on a rack under a light and the pumilio tanks run around 75.

Case 1:
First, I noticed that one of my El Dorado's was having spasms. I noticed this three different nights. I assumed this was a CO2 toxicity issue, as the upper levels of the enclosure were full of overgrown vines [opps]. So, I pulled the frog, quarantined him, and made sure he was getting his Vitamins, just in case. That was about a week ago. [As I've had these frogs for some time with no apparent issues, I am assuming there is no ion-channel genetic defects or other DNA modifications that might cause this issue - I know of no late-onset causes at least]

Case 2:
I received some beautiful new Pumilo today. I quickly dropped them off at home and placed two in a very very heavily planted quarantine tank. [On a lower rack, so about 71 degrees]. Returning home about an hour and a half later, I decided to pull them from this temporary tank and prepare a real quarantine container. In doing so, I found that one of my beautiful Pumilio was having spasms! The other was just fine and was chasing two ladies fifteen minutes later.

So, does anybody experienced [Ed comes to mind.. =D] see how these two cases could be related? Could the environment in the frog room as a whole affect some certain Pumilio, while leaving the other 150+ frogs without spasms? Are they totally unrelated? Most importantly, does anybody have any way of determining with some accuracy, why the spasms are occurring? Is there a CO2 threshold that affects anurans?

I looked for most of this in research articles and came up with little information, though it can be overwhelming to sift through so many articles for pertinent data. Anyway, I thought this might be helpful to Pumilio keepers, especially if some ways of pinpointing the underlying causes could be withdrawn from someone.


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## Brien (Aug 27, 2009)

Was the pums you received today from me? I have notice in some of my quarantine containers when I forget to mist humidity may drop and cause seizures. Also I have notice when stressed can put them into a seizure state. I have only witnessed this 3 times twice with my frogs and once with another breeder. I also received a intermedius once and the female wouldn't even move for the first 4 hours after I received her, I guess she was freaked out.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

I noticed that certain egg feeders (which are the only frogs I'm at all experienced with) will seize when disturbed or stressed out before they're acclimated - a pumilio froglet gave up running and just seized when I was trying to drop a drop of ivermectin on his back right after opening his qt container, I had histrionicus sub adult seize when she was up on the wall of her qt tub and I picked it up to open and feed her, she just slid down the wall and onto her back, she also started seizing again when I put her in her permanent tank for about a week. Those are the most common I saw so far, what was actually going on with you and the tank when it happened for both?


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## ESweet (Apr 13, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> I noticed that certain egg feeders (which are the only frogs I'm at all experienced with) will seize when disturbed or stressed out before they're acclimated - a pumilio froglet gave up running and just seized when I was trying to drop a drop of ivermectin on his back right after opening his qt container, I had histrionicus sub adult seize when she was up on the wall of her qt tub and I picked it up to open and feed her, she just slid down the wall and onto her back, she also started seizing again when I put her in her permanent tank for about a week. Those are the most common I saw so far, what was actually going on with you and the tank when it happened for both?


Chris,
I've never seen this in any of my other Oophaga, but I wouldn't be surprised. The first time I saw one of my El Dorado seize [I'm assuming each time it was the same one, 95% sure at least], I just opened the tank. I'm sure it was not in response to me, as it was hanging over a leaf seized up when I opened it. Earlier today, with my new pumilio, it very well could have been in response to me. I'm just trying to rule out any unifying cause of these frogs having spasms.

Brien,
No these weren't from you. I agree that at least the new frog was probably a stress releated issue, but I'm also wondering what the mechanism is that the stress is acting on...

I've searched the boards and in general it seems that people have seen seizures in their pumilios more than others. I've seen some posts about Auratus and some about Leucs, but I don' think any with Tincs.

Anyway, I really wonder if there is a better test to pinpoint the issues here.

Thanks for your input guys


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Erik,

Are your enclosures heavily seeded with springtails, and/or other microfauna? 

What kind of substrate(s) do you have in the enclosures? 

There are other potential sources of seizures in animals (I would actually suggest seeing if Oz has time to comment here as I could get some of this wrong..) such as B6, B12 deficiencies... in addition to some disruptions of calcium metabolism. 

I'm not sure the two cases are linked as one of the frogs was new to the husbandry routine and had just been exposed to a significant stressor. 

Ed


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## ESweet (Apr 13, 2009)

Ed said:


> Hi Erik,
> 
> Are your enclosures heavily seeded with springtails, and/or other microfauna?
> 
> ...


Hey Ed, thanks for chiming in.
The enclosure is not heavily seeded at all - I never seeded this tank before the frogs were put in, and they love springtails so it has been difficult. I have to add new ones all the time, just to keep any froglets from starving.

Substrate is 2-inches of pea gravel, washed and dried without chemicals before being put in the tank. An inch or so of sphagnum moss is on top, which is mostly packed down with leaf litter [Washed and cooked magnolia leaves and live oak leaves]. Also of note, the tank was totally run over in the upper levels with vines, blocking light to the lower levels. I kept it trimmmed in the front of the tank and the side, but froglets get up there and hide so I left it. As a result, the bromeliads below were decomposing pretty badly. I'm not sure if that could release something toxic, but just a thought as well. Regardless, I transferred them all into a new enclosure last night, just in case. I've also added a few fans this frog room in order to increase air exchange between the enclosures and the room.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Erik,

I doubt it was the bromeliad. I strongly suspect the problem in the one case to be due to hypocalcemia. If enough of the diet is being satisfied via springtails without enough calcium and/or D3 in the diet (variable expression of the symptoms based on how selective the froglets are feeding). In the wild, as the frogs/froglets feed on soil invertebrates, they are also consuming calcium with the substrate. This calcium is then made available in the digestive tract. This is why I was asking about the substrate as most of the substrates we use in the enclosures are very calcium poor. 

In cases like this, the use of some UVB lighting can also go a long way to resolving/preventing the problem but the frogs have to be able to modify thier exposure as they choose. 

In the second case, you can see this sort of problem in increased stress and activity levels. There are a couple of possible reasons for the seizures
1) anurans are relatively sensitive to lactic acid buildup (in a frog that was more active in shipping) and developed sufficient buildup to trigger a seizure 
2) increased metabolic rate from shipping increased demand, reducing calcium availability and the seizure
3) unknown or combination of the above. 

You may also want to run this by Oz.. to see what he says. 

Some thoughts, 
Ed


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

i remeber seeing apost about a sprayable calcium suppliment ? but could not re-find it ! also im worried about my pums (never had a seizure ) but they also dont call as often as other people frogs . I dont use calcium dirt as i havent researched that enough . but would a drop or 2 a month/ wk / 2 wk / of calcium glutanate (my spellingsucks) help matters ? I dust flies and never see then eat um and they dont seem to disapear ! i got a proven female from aaron frog farm and that things eats flies no problem . I switched from repcal herptavite & repcal calcium with vitd3 to repashy superfoods calcium plus icb . is this a ok switch and do i need repcal if i use repashy ? I think they like the taste of repashy more(other frogs then basti) the basti still dont bother  they are all over tank and the males were bought 5-6 month in april ! but they only call if purposly put in same tank together( they are seperate ) one male and the proven female are in a 30 hex and still no calling . Is this something to worry about ? perhaps volume level is to much . to muich noise from darn kiddies ! sry if this is a highjack thread i just thought it followed thoughts !


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## bricespice (Jan 4, 2010)

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I have been experiencing this problem with my Red Galact for 1 week now.
I have him in a large quarantine tub from Joshs Frogs. I found him in the tank shedding and he seemed stress. 
Whenever I go near him tub to open it and feed he has a "seizure" which consists of throwing (extending) his legs straight back and have overall body spasms. I close the lid and step away, in 1-2 minutes he returns to normal and stand back up and hops around. He is nice and plump and still eats when I am not directly standing over him.....

Any ideas?!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Calcium insufficiency. 

Ed


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## ESweet (Apr 13, 2009)

Yup - I agree with Ed. Stress will trigger the spasms. Try to open the container slowly and avoid rapid movements. Make sure you are dusting with lots of Calcium and that the frog is actually eating the flies.


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