# vitamin powder



## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

I know lots of people use the herptivites vitamins. But I'm curious how/why they are better than other types of vitamins? There are all kinds of powdered reptile vitamins out there, just wanting to make an informed decision.

Thanks


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

repashy makes a superior product.


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## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

I'm fond of the repashy gel fish foods. I feed them to my bettas and community fish. I was a bit put off though as their website doesn't have any sort of description for the powders, no nutritional alaysis or anything. The listings of their products on Amazon have the analysis, though.

Is it best to get a multivitamin, plus a sepperate calcium + D3 suppliment, and if so, why?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

the repashy calcium+ is designed to be an all in one. THEN YOU CAN SUPPLEMENT OCCASIONALLY with the vitamin A and superpig formulas (1 or 2x a month)


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Taari said:


> I was a bit put off though as their website doesn't have any sort of description for the powders, no nutritional alaysis or anything.


I'm not sure what web site you were on. The Repashy website provides full information, including a full ingredients list, and guaranteed analysis. You are either on the wrong site, or not bothering to click on any of the product pictures, or the word, "MORE", that is in every product description.


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## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

I'm looking at Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center 

On the vitamin powders, there are no analysis or a link to more information. All the foods I looked at had them though.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Im not too sure on how I feel about only using one kind of supplement as an "all in one". 
I use a range of supplements ... herptivite, repcal, & repashy products.(calcium+, vitamin a & superpig). I rotate them every feeding. There are some pretty big breeders that use the same rotation I do. (This is where I adopted my regime from). Its gotta be for a reason right?

To each his own. I guess using only one kind of supplement is fine. 
But I personally would rather not take any chances.
To me, supplements are like feeders, the more varied the better imo.


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## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

Gamble said:


> To me, supplements are like feeders, the more varied the better imo.


I agree. It's proven that a varied diet leads to health, no matter what kind of living creature you are talking about. Different foods have different levels of different nutrients, and by varying them, you get the best of them all.

I only have one vitamin powder right now, but I think I will start collecting them and rotate them each feeding.

Thanks for all the input!


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Some vitamin supplements for reptiles are not appropriate for amphibians. Low phosphorus to calcium ratios are necessary, because high phosphorus will interfere with the utilization of calcium in amphibians.
Fruit flies have roughly 10:1 ratio of phosphorus to calcium which must be overcome. The recommended Ca/P ratio for amphibians is close to 2:1
Repashy Calcium plus does have a very low phosphorus to calcium ratio.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Is the repashy supervite meant to be an all in one? I read here on db it was so i use that and supplement with superpig and vit a, each once a month. Should i add calcium+ to the rotation or does supervite cover that?


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## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

Thanks Reef Haven, I didn't know that. I will only "collect" the vitamin powders that are reccomended here, such as the repashy calcium plus, vitamin A, Supervite, and the rep-cal Herptivite multi and calcium + D3


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

papajuggalo said:


> Is the repashy supervite meant to be an all in one? I read here on db it was so i use that and supplement with superpig and vit a, each once a month. Should i add calcium+ to the rotation or does supervite cover that?


As I was told by Josh (Joshs Frogs) ... Repashy supervite is pointless to buy if you plan on using Repashy calcium+ bc it contains everything the supervite has plus some.

So get rid of supervite & replace it with the calcium +.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

and rep-cal/herpevite doesn't bring anything better to the table either. Youll be just fine sticking to repashy calcium +/ superpig/ vitamin


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reef_Haven said:


> Some vitamin supplements for reptiles are not appropriate for amphibians..


 
The implication here is that amphibians have significantly different nutritional needs than reptiles... this isn't true or supported on study... If they contain a preformed source of vitamin A then they are suitable for amphibians (and many reptiles need a preformed source of vitamin A as well as vitamin A deficiencies have been found in multiple taxa and are considered to be one of the most common deficiencies in reptiles (as well as amphibians...)) 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Taari said:


> I agree. It's proven that a varied diet leads to health, no matter what kind of living creature you are talking about. Different foods have different levels of different nutrients, and by varying them, you get the best of them all. !


With respect to cultured invertebrates.. the ones that had good analysis done on them are pretty much very similar to each other as a nutritional source.... So the idea that variety is really going to provide nutrients that are deficient in other inverts isn't really supported..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Gamble said:


> Im not too sure on how I feel about only using one kind of supplement as an "all in one".
> I use a range of supplements ... herptivite, repcal, & repashy products.(calcium+, vitamin a & superpig). I rotate them every feeding. There are some pretty big breeders that use the same rotation I do. (This is where I adopted my regime from). Its gotta be for a reason right?
> 
> To each his own. I guess using only one kind of supplement is fine.
> ...


The reason that a number of people use a rotation is because on analysis a number of the older more common supplements were found to have widely varying levels of vitamins and minerals (ranging from zero to more than 100%) when compared to the lable (since they aren't regulated). Some of the supplements on the market are made with better quality control and are more indicative of the lables.. PM me if you want since I think listing those would be considered endorcement in a thread. 

The current recommendation by the herp medical community is to make sure to use a supplement known to have a preformed source of vitamin A and unfortunately the major of herp supplements on the market do not contain preformed vitamin A, instead they tend to use beta carotene as thier sole source of vitamin A.... 

So many of the supplements that are used in many rotations are no longer considered best for the frogs..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Taari said:


> I'm looking at Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center
> 
> On the vitamin powders, there are no analysis or a link to more information. All the foods I looked at had them though.


OK, you're right, sorry. Many are missing. But most of the products of importance to froggers, have all that info. These should show you everything but SuperPig.
Calcium Plus is of the most importance to us, and it is there. Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL :: By Product Name :: Calcium Plus :: Calcium Plus 4 oz BAG - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center
Vitamin A Plus is used by froggers. Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL :: By Product Name :: Vitamin A Plus :: Vitamin A Plus 4 oz BAG - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center 
SuperPig is used but the info is missing.
RescueCal is sometimes used. Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL :: By Product Name :: RescueCal Plus :: RescueCal + 150g BAG - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center
Superfly is used. Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL :: By Product Name :: SuperFly :: SuperFly 16 oz BAG (one pound) - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center
Bug Burger is used. Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL :: By Product Name :: Bug Burger :: BUG BURGER 4 oz BAG - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center


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## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

Ed said:


> The current recommendation by the herp medical community is to make sure to use a supplement known to have a preformed source of vitamin A and unfortunately the major of herp supplements on the market do not contain preformed vitamin A, instead they tend to use beta carotene as thier sole source of vitamin A....


I don't know about the rep-cal, but repashy specifically states that their vitamin A comes from both preformed vitamin A and beta carotene, with a paragraph talking about why preformed vitamin A is important.

So then Ed, what suppliments do you use and reccomend?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

he just said to pm him so as to avoid endorsements where they are not allowed


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## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

Gotcha, I PM'd him.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

There is a very popular "all in one" supplement, that has been mentioned many times, that I use. It contains roughly 20% calcium and 0.6% phosphorus.
Fruit flies on a dry matter basis contain approx. 1% P and 0.1% Ca. Assuming 75% water weight that would be 0.25% P and 0.025% Ca, live fly weight.
I think it would be difficult to get more than 1% of fly weight in supplements to adhere to the fly for very long. (I'll be able to check this later this week when I can use an analytical scale). So that would add 0.20% Ca and 0.006% P.
Adding those together would be 0.225% Ca and 0.256% P.
This is still a ways off from the recommended 1.5:1 or 2:1 ratio
Calcium supplements are ~40% available calcium. I think rotating a calcium plus D3 supplement in every few feedings is still a good idea to improve that ratio.

Ref; Nutritional Analysis of Insects as Food


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm going to suggest using the updated table in Donoghue, Susan, 2006; Nutrition; _In_ Reptile Medicine and Surgery edited by Mader Saunders since your using some outdated numbers... 

For example in the tables on page 264, adult Drosophila melanogaster have a water content of 67% so using a 75% estimate is going to throw off the numbers more than a little bit... 

In addition, the tables show a more accurate amount of calcium which is 0.14% which while it seems insignificant when you are dealing with an organism as small as a fruit fly, it does make a difference..... 

I'm also going to draw your attention to a specific quote on page 265



> Studies in the author's laboratory show that the amount of dust sticking to invertebrate prey varies with the products, as does the rate at which dust is disloged from prey. Moreover, significantly more dust (all products) sticks to fruit flies, gram to gram, than to crickets. Absolute values differ with products used, but generally twice as much dust sticks to fruit flies. This is likely because of differences in surface structures and in surface area:volume ratios. Values for pinhead crickets (< 1/8 inch long) are between those for fruit flies and older (1/2 inch) crickets. Thus a dust that delivers appropriate levels of nutrition when applied to older crickets may deliver toxic levels of nutrients when applied to fruit flies. In our feeding trials, Poison Dart Frogs (Dendrobates bicolor) that consumed dusted fruit flies had a higher mortality rate compared to Treefrogs (Pelodryas caerula) that consumed the same dust applied to 1/4 crickets (unpublished data). Mortalities disappeared when the the dust for dart frogs was changed to one formulated to account for the greater amounts of dust ingested.


Some comments


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

very interesting Ed, thanks.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Ed said:


> I'm going to suggest using the updated table in Donoghue, Susan, 2006; Nutrition; _In_ Reptile Medicine and Surgery edited by Mader Saunders since your using some outdated numbers...
> 
> For example in the tables on page 264, adult Drosophila melanogaster have a water content of 67% so using a 75% estimate is going to throw off the numbers more than a little bit...
> 
> In addition, the tables show a more accurate amount of calcium which is 0.14% which while it seems insignificant when you are dealing with an organism as small as a fruit fly, it does make a difference.....


 Thanks Ed,
I'm going to PM you for your dusting regiment.

Using those numbers (67% and .14%) would skew the ratio even further.
As for the weight of the vitamin supplements, I'll report back in a few days.

I have calculated the weight of calcium supplements before.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/61798-truth-about-panacur-2-0-a-15.html#post583786


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

I determined the weight of the all-in-one vitamin suppliment which can adhere to Hydei today.

5% of the flies body weight initially, 4% after about 30 minutes. That's alot more than I predicted. I don't currently have wingless melanos, but I will see if I can determine the weight on flightless tomorrow. 

It looks like there is no need for an Calcium supplimentation beyond what is in the all-in-one. Anecdotally, I've seen that stated many times before, but I like to see some kind of hard data justifying it.


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