# Very bloated pumilio



## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

I just discovered my shepherd island pumilio looking extremely bloated and it keeps gasping for air(it seems) Any idea's of what the problem is and how to remedy it? 
I hate the thought of losing this frog. Pics attached. I have emailed someone who should know what to do, waiting to hear back. 
In the meantime what do you all think?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Looks like it may be water retention, possibly from a bacterial infection. Here is a recent thread in which this was discussed. Good luck. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...ld-wrong-arautus-bloated-almost-lifeless.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

With that level of fluid retention, the fluids can either be putting pressure on the lungs or causing them to fill with fluids. This is something that needs attention as soon as possible. I would suggest reading over this thread on emergency supportive care until you can get a vet involved http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/16433-emergency-supportive-care.html 

Ed


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## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. I have been advised to soak the frog in Frog Ringer Solution or Pedialyte.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

inflight said:


> Thanks for the replies. I have been advised to soak the frog in Frog Ringer Solution or Pedialyte.


If your talking to a vet, ask about hypertonic ARS.. that helps remove the fluids reducing strain on the frog. 

Rapid massive fluid retention like that is typically an indication of something really wrong in the frog. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Is it a new frog? recently shipped? stress from new tank?

Odd for that to just happen in a long term captive unless it is under major recent stress.

I agree with ARS baths.

Good luck!


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## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

I have Oz advising me. I can contact my vet and see about getting the ARS at best I would be able to pick it up tomorrow.

It is not a new frog and nothing in it's environment is new or has changed. It is one of a pair that are housed in an 18x18x24 Exo. I currently have the frog soaking in pedialyte.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

OK , darn....good luck. ARS isnt so easy to find for us regular folks.... :-(

I have some at home, from Oz....

Shawn


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

inflight said:


> I have Oz advising me. I can contact my vet and see about getting the ARS at best I would be able to pick it up tomorrow.
> 
> It is not a new frog and nothing in it's environment is new or has changed. It is one of a pair that are housed in an 18x18x24 Exo. I currently have the frog soaking in pedialyte.


wow scary, keep us posted on your frog's progress, what measures you take, and any info from the vet. Good luck!


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## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

It has been soaking for 3 hours and the only change i see is that the frog appears to be turning brown. I am assuming the skin may be separating from the muscle? I want to keep trying to treat it but at the same time I feel like maybe I should just euthanize it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

inflight said:


> It has been soaking for 3 hours and the only change i see is that the frog appears to be turning brown. I am assuming the skin may be separating from the muscle? I want to keep trying to treat it but at the same time I feel like maybe I should just euthanize it.


The color change could be due to melanopore expansion from the stress. How well does it react to a stimulus? If you touch the side of it's head does it blink or close it's eyes still?? 

Ed


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## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

It reacts when I put my hand near it. It does close it's eyes when my hand is near, it has even hopped, if I touch the frog it appears the skin starts to twitch and the frog then goes into what looks like a seizure. Back legs stretched out, laying flat and twitching. I have some calcium gluconate(i think thats what it is called) that I have put on it both times I thought it was having a seizure tonight. Right now the frog is sitting upright. It is still "gasping" frequently.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Hopefully he makes it through the night...if he does I would contact your vet first thing, even if he does not have ars bath maybe something like baytril solution would alleviate some of the symptoms and its readily available...but I am not a vet...good luck


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Are you close enough to get Oz or another vet to see the frog? One of things I've seen the vets do for frogs that has fluid symptoms on that scale was to aspirate the free liquid from the abdominal cavity in conjuction with antibiotic treatment (while the fluid was checked for infection) with a decent recovery rate but you really should have a vet aspirate the frog so you don't accidently lacerate the wrong organs. 

Ed


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## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

I am about an hour from Oz and from Cornell(which is where i would take the frog) My concern is that the exotic vet may not know much about frogs. I'm going to give them a call anyhow.


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## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

I think the frog is now dead. No movement and no response to stimuli.


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## itsott (Nov 25, 2010)

Hate to hear it didnt make it.


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## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

It is definitely deceased. Pretty sad, I also cannot find it's mate, hopefully it's just hiding really well. I put a flashlight up to the frog and can see into it. It's full of air or clear fluid.
My car is in the shop today so not sure about getting a necropsy done.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

inflight said:


> It is definitely deceased. Pretty sad, I also cannot find it's mate, hopefully it's just hiding really well. I put a flashlight up to the frog and can see into it. It's full of air or clear fluid.
> My car is in the shop today so not sure about getting a necropsy done.


Put it in the fridge (not the refrigerator) or check with Oz about pickeling it in alcohol. 

Ed


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## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

Put in the fridge and not the freezer, is that what you mean? 
Will formalin from the fish store be ok to preserve it in?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

inflight said:


> Put in the fridge and not the freezer, is that what you mean?
> Will formalin from the fish store be ok to preserve it in?


Yes, do not put in the freezer. If you freeze the frog, you can make it impossible to tell if the issue was due to a virus or other pathogen as the freezing causes too much damage to the cells. 

I'm going to defer to Oz's opinion on whether the formalin from the fish store is acceptable. Putting it into the fridge buys time to get the answer from Oz. If pickled properly, they won't be able to do cultures but the gross necropsy and possible histopathology should be usable (depends on how much degredation has occured before he gets it). 

Ed


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

Ed, dumb question.. but can preeclampsia/eclampsia occur in amphibians? or would it just be toxemia?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As I understand it no (but I could be wrong)... it is possible that they could suffer from yolk peritonitus if there is a rupture in the ovaries or tubes resulting in eggs ending up elsewhere in the body cavity. 

There are a lot of potential causes for severe fluid retention such as viral, fungal and/or bacterial infections (in some cases there may be components of any combination of those), liver failure.... 

Ed


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## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

Unfortunately I was unable to get the frog into a preservative in a decent amount of time so a necropsy would be somewhat pointless.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

If any one in the future is in a similar situation regarding storing of a frog for potential necropsy, the best option is to preserve the frog as soon as possible after death. I prefer 10% Neutral buffered formalin (NBF) but 70% or greater ethanol also works well. You can get 10% NBF from your local vet, but you probably will need to have a preexisting relationship with them to get a sample. For optimal fixation, a 10:1 ratio of formalin to the frog is best. For small frogs (pumilio, thumbnails, epipedobates), it isn't necessary to cut the frog to get good fixation; but for a larger frog (tinctorius, large phyllobates), an incision along the abdominal skin to permit penetration of the fixative into the coelomic cavity is best.

If you don't have access to the fixative, then storing the carcass in the refrigerator (in a sealed ziplock bag in a container of ice water is best for rapid cooling) is the best way to store the carcass until you can get fixative or get it to where it needs to be for examination. Ideally, this storage would be less than 24hrs, but good results can still be found 48h after examination.

I am not sure what necropsy and histopathology fees are at other institutions, but Cornell recently instituted a size-based fee scale, and for any animal under 0.25#, a necropsy and histopathology is available for $60. However, samples need to be sent in from a veterinarian. I am looking in to the logistics of serving as the named veterinarian on frog samples - but I have been encountering some resistance. If anyone has any questions on how their vet can submit a necropsy, feel free to PM me (although I can be slow to respond most days).

Amphibian Ringer's Solution is something that I think all froggers should have. JL-Exotics has it listed on their webpage - but it is currently out of stock. You can order it directly from Fisher Scientific (fisherSci.com - RINGER SOL AMPHIBIAN 500ML) - but you need to place a larger order, and if you are a private buyer - it can take a month or two before they ship to you. This might be a good idea for a regional group buy - or alternatively - maybe ask some of the site sponsors to order it and carry it.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I forgot to add - as Ed mentioned, once preserved, additional diagnostics such as bacterial culture or virus isolation won't be possible. But, in many of our frogs - given their small size, there is very limited tissue to allow for both culture and histopath of many organs. In cases where there are multiple deaths, it is recommended to fix some carcasses, and store others in the refrigerator to allow for additional diagnostics.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

rozdaboff said:


> If any one in the future is in a similar situation regarding storing of a frog for potential necropsy, the best option is to preserve the frog as soon as possible after death. I prefer 10% Neutral buffered formalin (NBF) but 70% or greater ethanol also works well. You can get 10% NBF from your local vet, but you probably will need to have a preexisting relationship with them to get a sample. For optimal fixation, a 10:1 ratio of formalin to the frog is best. For small frogs (pumilio, thumbnails, epipedobates), it isn't necessary to cut the frog to get good fixation; but for a larger frog (tinctorius, large phyllobates), an incision along the abdominal skin to permit penetration of the fixative into the coelomic cavity is best.
> 
> If you don't have access to the fixative, then storing the carcass in the refrigerator (in a sealed ziplock bag in a container of ice water is best for rapid cooling) is the best way to store the carcass until you can get fixative or get it to where it needs to be for examination. Ideally, this storage would be less than 24hrs, but good results can still be found 48h after examination.
> 
> ...


Thank you! We need to sticky this.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

Oz,
Thanks for the info. Can you expand on the use of ringer solution and when to use it?

Thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Jeremy,

I'm sure Oz will have more suggestions.. but I've always used it whenever the the amphibian is showing signs of fluid retention and for any other amphibians that are severely ill. Since ARS is isotonic to the frogs, it places less stress on the frog with respect to osmotic balance. This can reduce the caloric needs of the frog slightly (and help preserve ionic balance). 

At the Zoo we also used hypertonic Amphibian Ringer's Solution (has to be made up by the keeper) to help amphibians lose excess retained fluids. SOP was to place the amphibian into the apppropriate ARS solution (for terrestrial species we just unbleached paper towels wetted with the ARS) and then contact the vets. The vets would then make the decision to keep in the hypertonic or normal ARS. 

Ed


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

Thanks Ed,

I have put a request in for some along with TRICAINE-S (MS-222) which we used at the museum for euthanasia of frogs. Works very fast and causes no apparent stress on the animal.


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