# Woohoo!--MC pumilio eggs



## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Actually, I've had these for about 5 days, now, but at first was unsure if they were good or not...sure, I'd done a search and read that some people felt that pum eggs looked smaller than thumb eggs, others said they looked flat...but the eggs I found looked really small and flat...

Anyway, I looked in the viv last Sunday (11/12) and found this clutch of 6 way back in a brom where it's hard to get a picture (natch!):



















They looked a little funny to me (I'd only seen intermedius and leuc eggs before), but I got excited enough to search for other pics of pum eggs in these forums. Found a thread that said they should start out looking like that, then turn all dark...which they did the second day (11/13):



















But it was still another day or two before I allowed myself to believe they were developing! Today when I went to take more pics, I noticed the male sitting on the eggs (no extra light so as not to disturb him):



















I retreated tactfully and returned when he'd left to get these shots from today, day 5 (11/17):



















I am so glad I decided to go ahead and buy a "proven pair!"


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Congrats.
Keep us posted


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks!

Well, later tonight I discovered I could get a fair shot by holding a magnifying lens in front of my camera lens:


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## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

Congratulations!!!

Hmmm never thought of using a magnifying glass.... Good idea!


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

Fabulous!!! I am glad you decided to get a proven pair also :lol: keep posting updates! I am facinated by the pumilo breeding behavior. I love how they take such good care of their own eggs and tads. 

Good Luck momma (by proxy :wink: )


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

Thats so cool mine laid nine eggs three days ago too . ( I did a search here yesterday to see if anybody had a post just like this . Thanks . And I caught mine sitting over the eggs also ! ) . I guess I'll have to wait a couple more days to see if mine are good too . I hope yours take care of them .


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks, all!

Chris--you'd be surprised what you can take pics thru. I first read about this on a travel thread, talking about taking pics through a guide's spotting scope. Sure enough, I tried this in Costa Rica and it worked surprisingly well. Then I tried taking photos through loupes, my microscope eyepieces, and other magnifying lenses. The results would surprise you!

Mark! I know, I've been following your thread avidly! I was going to refer you to this thread--glad you found it. I, too, just recently went searching for pics of pum eggs--don't know about you, but I wasn't very successful... :evil: So I thought I'd better do it myself. (There have to be pics on this site I'm just not finding...  )

My male was sitting on the eggs again today. I guess he's the one who "waters" them.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Great close up pics! I'll have to try those alternate optics.

Congrats and good luck with the eggs!!

EricG.NH


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The first pics show very fresh eggs... most frog eggs (with the exception of white eggs such as galacs, quinqs, casti, etc) do the dark and light hemisphere bit... the dark facing up (when viewed from above the eggs look like they are all black) the white facing down, unless the eggs have been distrubed. As they develop, the eggs turn completely black... if they go back they go completely white.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks, Corey! I know I've read this before--probably from you!  --but I've forgotten it before, too. :? Maybe now that I'm experiencing it firsthand, it'll sink in...

These eggs & developing tads still look smaller to me than my intermedius did at the same stages...

Anyway, here are some pics from tonight, day 7.

They sure develop in a hurry!:










Not too sharp, but note position of tad in middle left compared to the last picture...yep, he's wiggling already!:










It almost looks as if the eggs are developing at different rates...it will be interesting to see if the one that looks the most "advanced" to me is the first one transported. There are six eggs all together, and all are developing (the leftmost two are very hard to get a pic of from this angle). (There is a dead ff just above them.)

I'm sorry the pics are a little distorted, but here's the perspective I have to take them from--in through the side glass at an angle (egg mass just below bend in large piece of wood):










Finally, just for the heck of it, a shot of Dad foraging on the cork bark:


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

Look at them grow ! They almost look like tadpoles already in a couple days . My eggs finally show signs of growing too . like yours in the second set of pictures .

Nice ant plant , I put two in my big vivs when I planted them but in shipping the leaves were damaged and fell off they are finally growing back , mine are slow growing . They are so neat , almost prehistoric looking . 

This will be cool to see how long two different morphs take to morph out into froglets since the eggs were laid within a few days of each other


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

I agree; but morphing's a long ways off! I'm not counting any chickens, yet...I do hope we can continue comparing notes up to the point of mutual successes, though. Now including _both_ your species!

Here're some pics from today. This afternoon I saw the female tending them. I've caught at least 3 tads wiggling today.

The guy in center left is still the most active. See his position change in these shots:





























And here's the most boring video in the world, except for about halfway through when one of the tads wiggles. (Guess who?  ):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0955300715

BTW, frog cognoscenti: is there a term for this stage? They seem like more than eggs, less than tads...embryo or fetus don't sound right...


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Sure enough, I knew I would be seeing this thread by now. The female looked nearly ready as soon as you got her.

Great start, lucky gal you. And you was unsure about pums... you handle them brilliantly


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, I guess you're a good judge of pumilio!

Thanks for the kind words! The way I see it, I'm just trying not to screw up...the frogs are handling everything beautifully. 

Hard to believe such elaborate behavior is so hard-wired in these little guys. It's all such a privilege to observe.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

And now for today's pics--day 8:




























For a while now, their behavior has suggested more courting, but despite intensive searching I could find no eggs--till I happened to look on top of the tallest piece of cork bark, right under the lid, as I was spraying tonight. The following pic was taken through misty glass, using a handheld Mag-lite, so this is the best I could do...I apologize for the garish light!--guess I should have changed the white balance...:


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## reggorf (Oct 24, 2006)

JEALOUS!!!!!!! i wish ours would get busy. he calls all the time. anyway, good luck with all your eggs/tads.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks! And, believe me, I've put in my time in the desert... :wink:


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

Toooo-Toot!!! I can't believe I missed this one. Nice growing Diane! I can't wait to introduce a female to my tank.
Those tad pics look very cool! I can almost see everything!


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, I doubt if anyone else finds these daily updates of tiny changes as riveting as I do--  --but nonetheless, here are some shots from today (day 10). We have eyes!:



















I guess the tad to the right of the eyed one is probably dead? I can't tell if it's actually growing, just very slowly, or passed on...


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## Kiari43 (Mar 6, 2006)

CONGRATULATIONS!

Great pictures  Can't wait to watch them grow!


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2006)

Nice pic! You must have one hell of a camera. 
That tad looks like it stalled at a differnt stage of development. Do you see it wiggle ever?


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks, Cesar. I would never dis my camera because we've been a team for a long time, but it's just a Nikon Coolpix 3100 point & shoot that is obsolete by today's standards. I've learned to push it to its limits, which turn out to be quite expansive...

I have not observed the slow developer move but see that it was oriented the opposite direction a couple of days ago. Also, looking back through the pics, it was always a slow developer. Does not seem to have made progress lately, though. But it's hard to tell...I have to admit that the hypothesis of varied developmental rates made sense given the time it takes to transport and situate each tad...The others seem to be developing at slightly different rates, but much less obviously, so I'm still not sure if this guy is a goner or not...

Today's (well, yesterday's) pics:


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## Kiari43 (Mar 6, 2006)

Look at those cute eyes! :shock: :lol:


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, this sure seems to be taking a long time! Here are Friday's pics, Day 12:



















I've been thinking that I've been seeing noticeably less "wiggling" from these guys. While I was taking Friday's shots I was happy to finally see the middle guy get active. The following shots show him in a couple of different positions:



















Meanwhile, the latest clutch seems to have some egg development, but it's very hard to get a picture of, right under the misty glass top. Also, the eggs are in a sort of depression, so there's too much depth to the egg cluster to focus on all of them at once:


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

And....Saturday's pics, day 13...yawn...

Same old, same old. 4 pics for anyone who wants to see tads in different positions from shot to shot. Think it's about time to throw in the towel on the slow one...:





































Finally managed to get a semi-decent pic of clutch # 2 (Day 4 or 5):










And my son found these today! (Looks like 7 eggs, and judging by the color, they've probably been there at least one more day):










Yikes!


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## Kiari43 (Mar 6, 2006)

Holy Moly your going to have your hands full! :lol: 

I love how the FF looks like a huge housefly in the pic of the second clutch.


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

Diane , They look almost ready to be transported soon . 

WOW . What . do you have three clutches of eggs in there ? You better hose those frogs down with some cold water ! And you thaught my nine eggs were alot , wait till they try to take care of all of those babies , they are going to need a nanny  .


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2006)

Someone call Nanny911!
Are you gonna try and raise some of those yourself?
Or are you gonna let nature take it's course?


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Cesar--remember, pums are obligate egg feeders...  

One thing I got to wondering about, though, is whether anyone has tried removing and freezing egg clutches for use in subsequent artificial rearing attempts? (Seems like, if you had a lot of pums as prolific as mine, you'd have a lot more eggs than could be raised successfully by Mom & Dad...)

Mark--When my son started calling the subsequent clutches "feeder tadpoles," I got a little less thrilled by them...But, I guess I can see it all as part of that great evolutionary scheme...

But I am getting worried. As I remember, these frogs have not previously used canisters for tad deposition. The broms in my tank are probably too small for pum tastes (there's a big hybrid Neo pup in there that's growing quickly, but not _that_ quickly) and now I'm wondering if maybe the parents won't transport because they don't like any of their destination options...  

One thing I'll try tonight is adding some black canisters--I've only added the clear ones so far because _I_ prefer them, and because my inters showed no preference either way, but maybe I've underestimated my MCs' prefs...


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Wow, somehow missed this one. Very cool Diane, Good luck!!!


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2006)

Diane, is there no way to artificially raise pumilio tads?
How about using some of your other frogs as surrugate parents?


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, this is the only info I know about on the subject. AFAIK Robb is the only one who's trying this now? But it's taken lots of trial & error...Thanks for the incentive to revisit this site--I was happy to find it recently updated.

http://www.robbster.com/RobbHome/FrogPage/

I think it would take a steady supply of eggs, judging by how many food eggs my female intermedius offers her tad. So if you had only a pair, and they were raising their own tads, it might be impossible to artificially raise the "extras."

As I remember, obligate egg feeder tads have gut modifications that prevent utilization of non-egg foods...


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

I wouldn't worry about them going crazy laying. when my yellow bellies took a month long break they layed something like 28 eggs in several clutches when they started back up, of which they only raised 4. if you like to experiment you can try pulling a clutch and just trying out various things. i've pulled probably close to 18 tadpoles from my chiriqui tank in the past just to experiment with different feeders. i've had tapoles live up to a month on chicken egg whites.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

NCSUdart--Thank you, that's very interesting. I guess if they're obviously extras, one might as well experiment, though it must be a bit tough to lose a tad you've been feeding for a month.

Now, though, I have another question for you and any other experienced pumilio breeders...[Bummer alert]...It appears that my pair have stopped taking care of the first clutch. Yesterday, it seemed that only the middle tad was still alive, and today even he appears dead. Sigh. The second clutch continues to develop, while the third clutch looks as though it was never fertilized.

Meanwhile, the parents are courting and hunting as usual. 

So my question is, why did they stop caring for their clutch? Could it be because they are unhappy with potential deposition sites? Or what?

(If this thread doesn't gather enough attention, I should probably start a new topic in this section just to ask this question...)


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Correction. Middle tad is still wiggling. This is day 15, however! Should it take this long till transport? Should I try to remove his deceased siblings from around him, or leave well enough alone?


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

How about more pics Diane so that we are aware of what this "situation" looks like. It will help if the same thing happens to our Pums.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Sure thing. Here are 2 pics from yesterday, 11/26 (Day 14):



















Here are 2 from today, 11/27, (Day 15):



















And while I'm at it, here's a shot of the 2nd clutch from yesterday (couldn't get a good shot of it today):


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

I wouldn't mess w/ it. You can but it wouldn't better anything at this point, chances are it could be made worse.

Is the male still tending/watering them? Ignoring?

Not to say this has anything to do w/ it (it might but), what all are you feeding the adults (especially mom)? They all looked really light in color from the start. Too light. 

If the one gets deposited you may want to sacrifice the other eggs being laid for a while. You could do it yourself and feed the eggs laid by hand, but I wouldn't recommend it at this point, if the female is being deprived.

If the clutches they are laying from now seem to be going down hill from the next, think about seperating the adult for a while to beef them up/reconstitute. Of course, I'm sure you know, but only if you know that one isn't going to survive and there are no others.

It could be that there is something wrong with young that the parents have sensed, that you can not, (something is wrong we can see) and they are being left for that reason. Likely, but not neccessarily the case. You'll know soon but if nothing improves w/ the other clutches you really need to consider a short seperation.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

stchupa--thanks for your input! I feed melanogaster, springtails, and occasionally hydei. I dust the flies nearly every feeding as I tend to feed enough to last 2-3 days, and, as you know, within several hours the flies have groomed off most of the dust. (I use a half-and-half dust mixture of Repti-cal & Herptivite, bought fresh in September.)

The adults appear to me to be in great shape--plump, bright, and active. The tad shots are a little distorted and possibly the color is off as well, as this clutch is in the shadow of a branch some ways into the viv and I have to use a magnifying lens, goose the exposure and sometimes use digital zoom to get shots that are even somewhat in focus and close enough to see anything. (A more mid-range shot would be better but at that zoom my camera always wants to focus anywhere but on the egg mass... :evil: )

But the tads have never been very dark, it's true. 

In the first few days I saw both the male and the female tending the eggs, but I have not seen either one there for a while. However, there are many hours when I'm not around to observe their behavior...

The second clutch looks good to me so far, and the third looks almost as if Mom just had to "discharge" some eggs--  --as they're on a basically vertical brom leaf, hidden in a brom near the front of the tank where I've never even seen the frogs at all, let alone courtship behavior. 

I will certainly keep in mind your advice about separation...But I think that as long as the adults look to be in good condition I will give them some more time and see what happens. After all, I haven't even had them a month, yet! They arrived on Halloween, and it's been a real surprise to me how quickly they adapted to their new tank and started breeding.

I do know, however, from the previous owner, that they have always had correct-sized broms available, and have not been offered film canisters. I know I should have had such broms ready to go in their tank (as I've mentioned, there is a pup of a good-sized brom in there), but when I assembled the tank I wasn't quite sure what I would put in it. (I was leaning toward imis, but then this MC pair came on the market...)

Also, I've seen a lot of backing into and out of various brom axils in the tank (pimientas, mariposas) and I just keep thinking they're investigating sites and not finding what they like. But that's probably just my interpretation and may have nothing to do with what's really going on. 

Still, I remember my intermedius investigating the film canisters before they deposited tads. I have never seen these pumilio investigating film canisters. Maybe if I can make some kind of a fake brom around a canister...?  

Right now, I'm tempted to go the "let nature take its course" route and just try patience for a while...


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Diane,
Is there really that much tending by the parents that is necessary for the tads? At least before they morph? It sems like most of what they will be doing (the parents) will take place after the tads emerg from the egg sack and begin to feed.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

It's too hard for me to tell from the pics, but have the tads broke free of the eggsack yet? If not, that very well could be your problem. If the tads were not strong enough to break the eggsack themselves that probably means they weren't overly healthy to begin with. This could be from the parents diet or just a bad clutch, but the tads need to break free before the parents will do anything. If they did break free and the parents did not respond, it could be that you unfortunately have a pair that are just not the best parents and in time they might be able to get it right.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Steve--All I know is what I remember other Board members saying. I understood that the parents at least "water" the eggs from time to time. But it would be easy to miss seeing this. I did notice today that it appeared that "someone" had tracked a bit of detritus into the egg mass...

Stace--Well, it would appear not. The middle one is still wiggling today--Day 16--but his tail is still curled around at the end so I would guess he's still in the egg.

Darn--wish there was some Super Duper Egg Dissolver I could add...  

Thanks for your input. Perhaps the first clutch or so after being plunked into deli cups, shipped overnight, and ending up in a brand new viv might not be the best they can do...

FWIW, here are today's pics. This is becoming a deathwatch...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i had a few man creek clutches go bad half way thru and eventually they got it right. 
i`d spray them off. they`ll only care for a couple anyway and the parents will pick the best tads to feed. you`ve got more on the way.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks, Aaron. I was hoping I'd hear something like that. And also wondering how I'd get rid of the bad eggs...just blast 'em with a spray bottle, huh? That sounds a whole lot easier than trying to reach back there and scrape...


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

Diane, When the two eggs went bad and moldy in mine I used a pair of tweezers and gently removed them . You might have to try a couple times each as the clear gel is like glue . Just remove the non devoloping ones and see how the rest go . Eventually they will get it right .


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It is not unusual for pumilio to be crappy parents the first couple months. They are at least doing it partially right, and as they practice more the rest should come. It sucks for the tads in their current condition, but such is life. 

I do not "help" eggs by helping them hatch or removing infertile eggs... if the tadpoles were healthy to begin with, they wouldn't need this assistance. Removing infertile eggs seems to be a golden rule, but I've never bothered... the clutches I lost were already weak to begin with or had fungus problems in general, the infertile eggs didn't do much. If it was so important to get rid of infertile eggs, mom and dad will do it. I let my frogs transport anyways, so I have little to do with the eggs... with pumilio especially I left the eggs alone as many cases they were laid in leaf litter and disturbing it too much meant the parents would abandon them.

Pumilio are not dependent on broms, broms are just the best qualified plant that we can fit in our tanks. When I bred my pumilio, I was still at the stage of not being able to keep those damn things alive. Just about anything that held enough water was used to deposit tads.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks, Corey, that's all very reassuring! I'm especially happy to hear that broms aren't strictly necessary. 

Another question...since pum tads are adapted to eat eggs only, does this mean an accumulation of ffs in the film canisters is problematic? Has anyone experimented with putting some sort of stick or something in canisters as a ff "ladder?"


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2006)

Hi Diane. Just wanted to say, sorry for the turn out. I was excited for you. But at least you are half way there! Good luck in the future.


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## Kiari43 (Mar 6, 2006)

Diane did the one not make it also?


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

No. Or I guess that should be "yes, it did not." :? 

This is what really bothered me when my intermedius were first starting to breed--not the eggs that fungused right away, but those that developed for some time & then died...


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## Kiari43 (Mar 6, 2006)

Yeah thats hard, all my eggs that I have lost have started to develop too, some were even moving.  Sad

I'm sorry


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Practice makes perfect. They'll get it right eventually, and the waiting will make froglets that much more rewarding.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks, K & Z. 

I understand pumilio froglets are particularly tricky. It's got to be especially hard to lose a froglet!


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Ill be getting 2 pairs of bastis next weekend. Until then, Ill be observing pumilio intraveinously through you posts.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

LOL! 

Zach, I'll be looking forward to YOUR posts! 

Meanwhile, tonight I sprayed the coagulating clutch off the brom bract, and whilst checking the rest of the tank, discovered that the clutch that I'd thought was unfertilized has wriggling tads in it...the other clutch (on the cork bark) seems to continue to develop too. Fortunately for all of us I can't get good pictures of either of these!


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Aww, come on Diane. We all love seeing pics of your eggs! Congrats, it sounds like your pair is staying busy!


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

Diane , Any updates on the eggs . How are they coming along ?


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Ron, thanks much for the encouragement!

Mark, thanks for asking. The second clutch is not easy to see, but it seems to have live tads in it and I saw an adult tending it as recently as yesterday. The third clutch, the one that I thought was in an odd place and not fertilized, developed tads, and I once saw the female tending them, but the clutch sort of disappeared. At least 3, I'd say, maybe more, slid down into the brom bract they were layed above. (They were layed on a +/- vertical leaf.) It seems as if they slipped in before full development, so I doubt if they'll survive or be tended, but whenever I can get a peek into that bract I seem to see at least one tad in a slightly different position than before.

Meanwhile the adults seem active as ever but have not seemed to lay more clutches or to court as much as before. Our weather took a sudden turn for the worse last weekend, we lost power for about 12 hours, and the frog tanks were covered with blankets most of the day. We were able to get a generator hooked up and the frog tanks never fell below 68-70º, but I think they have reacted to the weather change, anyway. 

My new philosophy (esp. since I can't get any good pics of the remaining clutch) is to watch and wait and hope I'll be pleasantly surprised some day. If that happens, you (all) will be the first to know!


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2006)

You think there is a chance that one of them eggs hatched and the tad went into a brom?? Maybe you will see little tiny hoppers that are not supposed to be there in a few months?


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## titan501x (Dec 7, 2006)

*wow*

i've read that whole thing, and all i got to say is, wow. i didn't think it could be so hard for the little guys.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Waddaya mean, for _them_?!  

Well, yes, it does seem a little harsh for the little tads left flopping on their leaf to die...sigh.

Cesar--It seems to me there are not very many appropriate tad deposition sites in the viv, except, of course, for the convenient film canisters which are being scrupulously ignored. But, the frogs have stopped laying and started skulking about stealthfully, so it's a big temptation to interpret that as furtively nurturing tads...one can hope.

On the other hand, we lost power for 10 hours last weekend in the ice storm, the weather has changed suddenly, and they could just be reacting to those variables, even though according to my instruments I seem to be keeping the viv conditions within appropriate ranges. Somehow the frogs always know what's going on outside, though...


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