# Clay Background Vert



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Well... I took advantage of Petco's sale and picked up a 20H for $20. Ive been reading a lot about these clay backgrounds so I figured id give it a shot. The pics are from my phone so they arent the greatest, but you'll get the idea

Well, heres the tank and a piece of wood I liked









The kitty litter I used. Got it from Walmart for $2.98









I poured it in the bucket, let it sit with some water for a couple hours then stirred it up and got it to a very sticky playdough consistency.









After I let that sit for several hours, I added some moist peat moss. I just did a simple 2 part mix of peat and clay. It is probably about 60% clay and 40% peat. This darkened the mix considerably which I think made it look much better.









Pressed it into the tank and then added my accents. All I did was press the wood and corkbark into a layer of clay and let it squish its way into position, then I pressed some lumps of clay in around the edges to make it look better.









Finally, here is the tank standing up vertically









Now, Im tempted to take some peat or coconut husk (or a mix) and press it onto the outside of the clay in a similar way to what people do with GS/silicone backgrounds. Has anyone ever done this? I figured some of it would stick and help to take away from the slightly sticky feel of the clay.

Let me know what you think


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## cheezus_2007 (Aug 20, 2009)

headed to wal-mart tomorrow to get me some special kitty. lol.... just picked up a 29 at a garage sale that ima have to try the same thing on.... what kinda peat moss did you use? can i get it at wal mart as well?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I got the peat moss at Lowes... its a pretty big 3.8 cu ft bag
Shop 3.8 Cu. Ft. Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss at Lowes.com


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

After I did mine, I just rubbed a little peat/coco fiber onto the clay. Don't have to push it in like silicone or GS. Just rub it on like you're preparing some meat for cooking. 

I didn't cover the whole clay area, just rubbed it here and there as an accent of sorts. I posted pics of it in the I Love Clay thread 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/54887-i-love-clay-4.html


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## nawth21 (Apr 17, 2008)

Glad to hear the Special Kitty brand is working well so far. I have a bag on hand but haven't started my 10g yet


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Wanna' know something crazy? I purchased this same litter a month ago, from Walmart, with the intention of using it for a clay background. I soaked it in water for 3 days and it did not change state at all. The bag I got (again, exact same product) appears to be, at least lightly, fired. I layed it out over paper and dried it over a week and it was a bit clumpy, but other than that exactly the same.

So I mixed it 50/50 with "Pondcare Aquatic Soil" and used it for substrate.

Just an FYI for anyone buying this brand in Northern California that it might "make mud" for you.


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## cheezus_2007 (Aug 20, 2009)

i just mixed a bunch of it w. water and it hasn't changed consistancy much...... hoping it will change lol..... i had my mind set on doing this....so far its still pretty granual like....Anyways we'll see how it goes


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

mix it up! use your hands... get dirty and knead it a bit.


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## cheezus_2007 (Aug 20, 2009)

yea i was using my hands lol and really warm water thinking it would break it down faster? dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno.... ima give it a shot either way


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

it never got completely smooth, it was kinda chunky... lots of little white bits but it didnt seem to pose a problem.


*edit*
you can kinda see in the 4th picture all the little white flecks in the mix. It was still very pliable though


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

cheezus_2007 said:


> i just mixed a bunch of it w. water and it hasn't changed consistancy much...... hoping it will change lol..... i had my mind set on doing this....so far its still pretty granual like....Anyways we'll see how it goes



With kitty litter you have to let it soak for a while to get fully hydrated. I would let it soak to the next day just to make sure its fully hydrated, then add whatever and mix and apply


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Great thread and viv so far. Looking forward to once it has been filled in.

Your thread got me inspired and I made a very late Walmart run for some kitty litter. I Got 2 11kg boxes of Special Kitty, however unlike your bag, it lists that it is 100% clay, yet it says : "Formula includes Odour Check, an odour control system that provides all natural and long lasting odour control".
Im assuming since it is "all natural" that it poses no threat, but I could be wrong. Maybe I'll just end up with an odour free viv lol.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

GRIMM said:


> Great thread and viv so far. Looking forward to once it has been filled in.
> 
> Your thread got me inspired and I made a very late Walmart run for some kitty litter. I Got 2 11kg boxes of Special Kitty, however unlike your bag, it lists that it is 100% clay, yet it says : "Formula includes Odour Check, an odour control system that provides all natural and long lasting odour control".
> Im assuming since it is "all natural" that it poses no threat, but I could be wrong. Maybe I'll just end up with an odour free viv lol.


this is the stuff I had... it is 100% clay...


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Thumbs up to you good sir 

My clay will be soaking overnight.


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## cheezus_2007 (Aug 20, 2009)

letting mine soak as well... i milled a bunch of sphag, and bought a GIANT bag of peat moss today for 11 bucks.... i cant wait to have a mossy background. Maybe someone can post a pic of their moss grown in backgrounds so i can have somethin to look forward too hahaha. Moss will grow on it just from the peat moss and phag right ?


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Moss grows on bare rocks, so I betcha it will do great on the clay backgrounds! Im going to sprinkle/embed some Kyoto moss spores over the finished background, hopefully with some luck it will grow in additon to the java I will be using.

Again, thanks for the inspiration!


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

cheezus_2007 said:


> letting mine soak as well... i milled a bunch of sphag, and bought a GIANT bag of peat moss today for 11 bucks.... i cant wait to have a mossy background. Maybe someone can post a pic of their moss grown in backgrounds so i can have somethin to look forward too hahaha. Moss will grow on it just from the peat moss and phag right ?


I dont know if the peat and sphagnum mosses will just pop up fresh stuff or not. Ive had success getting sphag to come back to life before but not when it was buried in clay. you may need to find something to get you started.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ok so now that the silicone on the glass is cured I added my hydroton and substrate. Here's what it looks like now... I need to get some more wood and I'm gonna order another brom pack from Jason. After I figure all that out I'll add my leaf litter and such too.

Right now I just stuck a Neo Fireball pup that I had in on the left and some dischidia million hearts on the right. The plant down the bottom is Hoya Rubra that I got at lowe's.


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## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

I love the wood that comes straight out at the glass. That looks like an awesome place for broms or a nice orchid.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> I dont know if the peat and sphagnum mosses will just pop up fresh stuff or not. Ive had success getting sphag to come back to life before but not when it was buried in clay. you may need to find something to get you started.


If the light is intense enough and it stays moist it will. 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Awesome! thanks Ed

My sphagnum that has sprouted back to life was used as a substrate and it stays very moist and is under some pretty good light. Ive only ever had luck with the "premium grade orchid moss" from home depot, the other kinds ive bought havent worked for me. 

I did not know that the peat would come back though so thats pretty cool... i'll try to press some more of that on the background when I get a chance haha


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

cheezus_2007 said:


> letting mine soak as well... i milled a bunch of sphag, and bought a GIANT bag of peat moss today for 11 bucks.... i cant wait to have a mossy background. Maybe someone can post a pic of their moss grown in backgrounds so i can have somethin to look forward too hahaha. Moss will grow on it just from the peat moss and phag right ?


This tank is 2 yrs old. The feature on the right is a cork bark water fall that is completely covered in moss. The moss, ficus vine and another ground cover that I can't remember the name of are fighting it out for the back (vine's in the lead) and the floor (unk ground cover has the upper hand). I got a small piece of moss covered fern panel from Patrick Nabors and it took off from there. It has since been taken over mostly by the ground cover, but the moss jumped to the cork bark and took the high ground.

BTW - this is a pretty traditional set up with fern panels glued to the back and recirculation of the water over the water fall and a false bottom fitted with a powerhead.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

This moss came up and overgrew the back wall (after I removed the ferns that showed up)


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

One of the nice things about a clay background is that if you decide a piece of wood isn't working or would look better elsewhere, you can just pull it out and stick it where you want it. Smooth out the clay with your fingers.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed, is that from the peat or sphagnum?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> Ed, is that from the peat or sphagnum?


That is from peat, but I have also had great success from osmunda panels, and sphagnum. 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

hmm... im unfamiliar with osmunda panels, i'll have to look into them


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## colbyrs (Mar 30, 2008)

Looks like this is working great for back grounds! Is anyone mixing any "Special Kitty" in their substrate mixtures?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

colbyrs said:


> Looks like this is working great for back grounds! Is anyone mixing any "Special Kitty" in their substrate mixtures?


Im testing out some of it in a grow out tank I just built... we'll see how it goes


Anyway, in the meantime... heres some progress:









Im just waiting on my brom pack from dartfrogmegastore... hopefully itll be here by wed and I'll get some new pictures up once they are all planted. 

The clay seems to be holding up really well though... I cant wait to get my frogs in there


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## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

very nice! I think i will try clay in a vert im going to be working on soon


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Don't forget clay makes a good substrate.. 

Ed


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

This question's specifically for Ed:

With a drip wall flowing over the clay, how long did you need to let the clay set up prior to turning on the drip wall? In one of my experiments, I let one set-up for four hours (seemed firm), then turned on the pump-- by the next morning all the clay had washed away into soup....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RarePlantBroker said:


> This question's specifically for Ed:
> 
> With a drip wall flowing over the clay, how long did you need to let the clay set up prior to turning on the drip wall? In one of my experiments, I let one set-up for four hours (seemed firm), then turned on the pump-- by the next morning all the clay had washed away into soup....


I let it set up for 24 hours before I activated the drip wall or the water flow.. 

Ed


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Thanks. 

I'll mix up a new batch later in the week and try again. I'm using a fine-powdered bentonite, should that be making a difference?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sodium or calcium bentonite? 

Ed


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Sodium bentonite (at least I would assume). I purchase from my local irrigation supply co. in 50# bags. They're labled "Bentonite Clay".


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Does it swell when you add water to it? Sodium bentonite should have its volume increase between 5-10 times. 
Also are you adding anything else to it or are you only using the clay? 

Ed


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

The overall volume doesn't increase much, if any. I'm adding a mix of peat, and coir to the clay mix (in equal parts, about equal to the amount in voume to the wet clay). When I get a mix I'm happy with I'll add some concrete dye for color.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed, what kind of other things should I be adding in order to use this as a substrate? Should I just hash through the "ultimate clay based
Substrate thread" ?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RarePlantBroker said:


> The overall volume doesn't increase much, if any. I'm adding a mix of peat, and coir to the clay mix (in equal parts, about equal to the amount in voume to the wet clay). When I get a mix I'm happy with I'll add some concrete dye for color.


If it isn't exanding then it isn't sodium bentonite. It is either an exchanged bentonite or a calcium bentonite (check the pH of the excess water when you rehydrate it). 
I've had good luck with it staying up as a 50/50 mix clay to organics but I wouldn't go lower than that for a drip wall (mainly because I haven't tested it). I would mix it and let it set up overnight (monitor for cracking). It does need to set and stabilize before adding more water to it. Sodium bentonite works better for this application than does the calcium (due to the swelling) which is why it is used as pond liner. At this time, I've moved past using only bentonite for clay mixes and am now combining them with red art clay in mixtures ranging from 50/50 (before organics are added) to 75/25 red art to bentonite. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> Ed, what kind of other things should I be adding in order to use this as a substrate? Should I just hash through the "ultimate clay based
> Substrate thread" ?


Reading through the long winded ultimate clay thread is actually a good exercise for ideas. or you can contact Philsuma I believe he has edited it down to just the information without all of the extraneous stuff. 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

alright cool... thanks again


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Ed:

I pulled up the info on the Bentonite clay I'm using from the manufacturer. It is Sodium Bentonite, ground to 200 mesh, pH is 8.9. 

Should I mix this with peat and colorant only, or would some chopped long-strand sphagnum be more beneficial in binding the clay?

Thanks for your continued assistance.


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

RarePlantBroker said:


> Ed:
> 
> I pulled up the info on the Bentonite clay I'm using from the manufacturer. It is Sodium Bentonite, ground to 200 mesh, pH is 8.9.
> 
> ...


For the background I mixed milled sphag in hoping it will green up, not really for binding. 50/50 bentonite and peat it will be fine


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Thanks. I had seen where several people were adding milled sphagnum--thought it might be like fibre-reinforcement for concrete.... 
For greening, I might try blending in some of the tropical mosses that I have growing in another vivarium (they're currently starting to spore).


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I used 50 clay, 25 peat, 25 coco fiber. It's been holding up well (using the tank for storing plants, atm). However, the broms I stuck in the background rotted pretty quickly.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

The other bennie for using some milled spag is that it assists in allowing springtails to become established on the walls.....all my 10 gallon grow out verts have milled spag in the rear wall and I always have plenty of springtails actually living on / in the wall.....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RarePlantBroker said:


> Ed:
> 
> I pulled up the info on the Bentonite clay I'm using from the manufacturer. It is Sodium Bentonite, ground to 200 mesh, pH is 8.9.
> 
> ...


The long strands once they decay result in voids in the wall which can weaken it. Sodium bentonite should really swell... weird that yours isn't. 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Alright well I got my brom pack in today so im currently on brom overload haha. I dont know what any of them are so ive just kinda stuck a bunch of them in to see what will happen... Im sure some of them may grow too big and will have to be pulled at some point, but I figured why not try them out since I dont have any concrete IDs on them.

Soo... here ya go:









Side views:

















After all the broms were in and secure I let my little guys loose in there... I bet they appreciated the space compared to their little growout containers

















Due to my current surplus... here is my new brom growout tank... haha 








They'll be reserves for the fall when I hopefully get some more thumbnails

and heres a pup I got in my pack that I have no idea what i'll ever do with... its way too big for any of the vivs I'll keep so if anyone wants it its all yours. It'll probably go well in one of those 40 breeders I know a bunch of people are gonna be working on soon. PM me if interested...


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

frogface said:


> I used 50 clay, 25 peat, 25 coco fiber. It's been holding up well (using the tank for storing plants, atm). However, the broms I stuck in the background rotted pretty quickly.


I was feeling good about this post when I thought it said "rooted quickly"....But now I noticed that you said "rotted" 

Are all of your broms doing poorly with the ends stuck in clay? Anyone else having trouble keeping broms healthy with their clay BGs?

I was planning on doing the same, but I dont want to spend a bunch of money on noes/broms that will rot away in my new clay tanks....Might as well plant them in the substrate seperately with their own loose orchid mix or something...


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

two of my broms have been in the clay since like day 1 and they seem to be doing very well. They appear to be growing and show no signs of rotting


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

"since like day 1"....

So what kind of time span are we talking here?

Ive had broms last 2-3 months without me noticing them rot, then a few leaves wilt and the entire stem is rotten once I finally get down and up close to check it out. Broms seem like beefy and thick plants so I would suspect all of them require a month or two to show any signs of doing poorly (at least mine do)


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

GRIMM said:


> I was feeling good about this post when I thought it said "rooted quickly"....But now I noticed that you said "rotted"
> 
> Are all of your broms doing poorly with the ends stuck in clay? Anyone else having trouble keeping broms healthy with their clay BGs?
> 
> I was planning on doing the same, but I dont want to spend a bunch of money on noes/broms that will rot away in my new clay tanks....Might as well plant them in the substrate seperately with their own loose orchid mix or something...


Sorry, I should have noted that this tank had no ventilation. It's just for plants, atm, so I didn't worry about a screen. Now I have the glass pushed back to allow some air exchange. It could have been the lack of ventilation that lead to the brom issue. I haven't planted any back into the clay yet. However, the broms that were sitting on wood and not actually in the clay, did not rot. Even without ventilation.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Yea I guess it has only been a week or so... he said his rotted "pretty quickly" so I was thinking about a pretty short timespan. However, I checked and one of mine is popping some roots, so thats pretty promising I guess.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Mine did not get to the point of rooting, so, you are already having much better results than I did. 

eta: I'll try the broms back in the clay once I have a proper screen and a fan to push air.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have bromeliads that rooted directly into the clay substrates. I have had some rot in the same conditions and I think the problem may be due to air circulation. 

Ed


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

I have about 10-12 broms total in 2 vivs. SO far only one rotted but most of them are already rooting


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

All these root rot rotting rooting posts are hurting my eyes lol

Thanks for the 2nd opinions guys!


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## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

im building a virt pretty much like this. ive run into a problem though. how do you get your door from falling down? I was thinking magnets with mine to keep it shut but idk how that is going to work out.


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

I tried the "Special Kitty" stuff, it's not dissolving. I'm in Morgan Hill, CA. so I guess the stuff around here isn't any good.


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## cheezus_2007 (Aug 20, 2009)

it doesn't really "dissolve" completely... mine just soaked up water, i kneaded it.... soaked it again and did that over and over 4 times.... 4th time it was pretty soft and once i mixed it with peat moss and some milled sphag. it was a nice consistancy..... when i put it on the background i would smooth it down.... it was grainy till i smoothed it.... anyways hopefully it works..... I'm sure any of it will work no matter what the area you are from...


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

cheezus_2007 said:


> i milled a bunch of sphag


How did you do that?


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## cheezus_2007 (Aug 20, 2009)

i just took a handfull of it and rubbed it all together till it was super fine


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

I'll have to give that a shot. I wonder how it would do in a blender.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I was thinking of using a blender but I just rubbed it between my hands and it easily broke down into very fine pieces. Mine turned out pretty well I think. I'll be posting pics later once I plant them.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Adamrl018 said:


> im building a virt pretty much like this. ive run into a problem though. how do you get your door from falling down? I was thinking magnets with mine to keep it shut but idk how that is going to work out.


Any sort of latch or hasp should do the trick... the ones made by dane at junglebox.net are pretty simple, its just a screw and a piece of plastic. Check out his site and you may get a better idea from the pictures.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

If you build your own door and all you need is the little latch, go to Home Depot or Lowes in the screen repair section, I bought an 8 pack of those little white knob things that slide down in place to prevent the door from falling open for like $4.


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## Lycosa (Jul 13, 2010)

Does anyone have any info on the longevity of using that clay background with a water feature? Sorry if this question is an old one, but I really like the idea of the natural aspect of using the clay, but if I have to redo it over and over because it 'melts', I don't know if I would be happy with that.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In one of the test tanks I have a clay drip wall that has been up and running for more than ( I think 4 years now). 

Ed


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## Lycosa (Jul 13, 2010)

Ed said:


> In one of the test tanks I have a clay drip wall that has been up and running for more than ( I think 4 years now).
> 
> Ed


I'd say that's a good background then. 

Very interesting to use kitty litter.. I just spent quite a bit on spray foam and silicone for a 39g tank.. I think my next project will use the kitty litter method instead, not only does it look good, but at least it isn't full of chemicals... that I can not say for sure do not leech out and accumulate in the tank over time. Thanks for the info Ed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> I have bromeliads that rooted directly into the clay substrates. I have had some rot in the same conditions and I think the problem may be due to air circulation.
> 
> Ed


Here is an example of good bromeliad growth in clay (I just threw out a pup about the size of those two plants) and a picture of how the roots grew right through the substrate, airgap under the false bottom and into the water... 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

As for the brom rooting issue, here you go... this brom has been in the clay for about 2 weeks and it has some root growth (the white thing sticking out the bottom)









and this one has only been there a week... its a little tough to see because of the crappy picture, but you can see some white-ish new root growth near all the brown old roots


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## spottedcircus (Sep 17, 2009)

Is. This. The clumping or non clumping variety. I've had my Red bag of special Kitty sitting under water a few days and it is still grainy feeling. I added some Sphagnum an peat and its clumping Bette now but it doesn't have a very smooth texture to it.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Mine never got completely smooth either... there were little white chunks in it but it still worked fine.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

just in case anyone was subscribed to this over the summer... heres an updated thread


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