# Why does Josh's Frogs not sell any Pumilio?



## that Frog Guy (May 13, 2012)

I was wondering why Josh's Frogs do not sell any Pumilio?

I went to their site and everything they sell is common stuff that is around 50.00 (Azureus, Leuc, Auratus, etc.)

I was told that Josh was the biggest Breeder of Poison Dart Frogs in the world.

So I would assume that they sold high end stuff?

Why do they not have expensive stuff like Pumilios?


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Easy answer, why don't you just ask him directly?

Other easy answer, pumilio can't reproduce in the high numbers many other species can be, and I'd imagine it'd be a nightmare for an online retailer to be constantly updating small quantities of Oophaga offspring.

But again, I think this could've been something Josh could have easily answered for you without bringing it here to the board.

-Pat


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## cypho23 (Apr 6, 2012)

Maybe there's not enough profit margin for Pumilio?

You have to get a pair that does everything right. You need to raise healthy froglets to very stable/sellable size. I would guess the demand for most Pumilio is not as great as the demand for azureus or leuc's, or the many amazing varieties they sell. Pum's don't produce large clutches, so maybe it would not profitable for them.

I think they do an awesome job at what they do. I have not purchased frogs from them, but do buy dry goods and flies on occasion. 

I would think as a business they have found their niche(a really big one) in about every type of dart breeding because they do it well and raise healthy froglets. 

Maybe they will chime in. Are they already breeding Pumilio? Maybe...


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

They sell them. Just not many of them so they don't post them on their .com.

Casper


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Steve

I bet Josh does work with some pumilio.

I think he should speak for himself, but my suspicion is that if you are doing this as a business you need to be able to supply the numbers necessary to have stock on hand all the time.

And also, you need lower cost animals to sell to beginners and at shows.

Pumilio are more of a 'specialty' breed IMHO.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Because Shawn Harrington does so he doesn't need to.


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## that Frog Guy (May 13, 2012)

So where do people get all these Pumilio that I see on this site?

I mean I have been to all the big breeders sites and nobody has them.

If Josh does not have them who would?

If anybody would I think it would be him as he has the capitol to start up Pumilio Projects with all the money he makes.

Do they fall from the sky?

When you want say a high end snake you always go to a big breeder like Brian Barcyk because he has the money to afford $40,000 snakes.

You do not go to some small time new dealer at your local reptile show for high end stuff.

It is the "Big" guys that have the expensive stuff.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

OK,

I hate to have to do this but...

https://www.facebook.com/FrogWhisperer

I will also say that again Josh likely works with them, as does
Patrick Nabors
Black Jungle

and a number of good hobbyists who have a special interest in pumilio.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Hell Shawn, I already tried that. lol


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Hey Steve, SportsDoc breeds all kinds of Pumilio. He is a member here. Search for him in the member list


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

Welcome to the wonderful world of dart frogs where it is nothing like the snake hobby...

Casper



that Frog Guy said:


> So where do people get all these Pumilio that I see on this site?
> 
> I mean I have been to all the big breeders sites and nobody has them.
> 
> ...


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Most obligatory egg feeders are farm raised (FR) or occasionally wild caught (WC). I believe the main distributor of FR frogs is Strictly Reptiles (SR) and then there is Simply Natural Dart Frogs (SNDF), which, as far as I know, get there frogs from SR, and then quarantine and medicate them, and then sell them. 

There are more people with smaller operations that import FR animals too. Then many, many people sell obligate egg feeders as adults or offspring, such as Shawn. Most of the time, their lineage goes back to animals imported by the above people. There are other lines such as Villegas, that is sometimes considered the 'old line'. As such, I have no clue as to who imported them or anything. I'm always looking to learn, so if anybody knows anything of Villegas line frogs, such as who they were imported by, ect, PM me please.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

I bought a pair of my first pumilio from him in 2007 or so. They were advertised on his site as pumilio 'red' or something and he couldn't tell me what locale it was. 

Shortly thereafter he seemed to no longer advertise them. Probably realized that with the slow breeding, the complicated locales, and the parasitized condition of imports, his business model would perform better without them, and it seems to be working.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

that Frog Guy said:


> So where do people get all these Pumilio that I see on this site?


A quick scan of the classifieds section OF THIS WEBSITE just yielded 8 recent ads for pums. I would give some links, but that would take away all the fun of clicking the "Frog Classifieds" button.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Maybe, they like big frogs. 

OP Ask them. This is all speculation...


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

frogfreak said:


> Maybe, they like big frogs.


I like big frogs and I can not lie?

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Melody


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

My pum pair would lay 20+ eggs but only raise 2-4 froglets. That would take 3 months and then another 5 before they are old enough to sell. Not an easy way to make money


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

msb5446 said:


> I like big frogs and I can not lie?
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist...
> 
> Melody


So do I.


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## JohnL814 (Jan 13, 2013)

"My pum pair would lay 20+ eggs but only raise 2-4 froglets. That would take 3 months and then another 5 before they are old enough to sell. Not an easy way to make money"

I agree with this statement and many others. You should think before you ask publicly and you could have easily called the breeder/seller directly and got an answer. 

If you are in this for the "hobby", then it does not matter if you sell/trade/give away only 6 frogs a year. 

If you are in it to pay the bills/feed your family, you need to sell many items a day/week!


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## bluefrogtat2 (Dec 24, 2012)

I bought my female solarte from them recently..


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Well, Pumilio may put out 1/5th as many froglets, but "most" have a value of 2-5 times what other frogs go for. From a bussiness standpoint though, selling the cheaper frogs makes more sense. The $$ is not necessarily in the frog sale, its in all the plants, substrate, FF supplies and cultures, tadpole supplies, lighting, vert kits, misting systems, shipping supplies, etc.


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## Lance (Sep 8, 2008)

The only way to make a good profit on Oophaga is to have 3-6 pairs of each morph to be meet the supply and demand and to make a solid profit. 
Shawn how many pairs of each species do you have in your collection? If you dont mind me asking.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Actually even in the snake hobby you do not go to the big name breeders for the rare stuff. If by rare you mean a funnily colored ball python, then maybe. But obscure species are usually worked with my small time breeders and hobbyists.


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## that Frog Guy (May 13, 2012)

bluefrogtat2 said:


> I bought my female solarte from them recently..


Were they listed on the site or did you have to call him up and special order them?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Lance said:


> The only way to make a good profit on Oophaga is to have 3-6 pairs of each morph to be meet the supply and demand and to make a solid profit.
> Shawn how many pairs of each species do you have in your collection? If you dont mind me asking.



Lance

Without going through the whole thing...

I have ~110 vivs....and I keep at least 3 vivs of each 'type', generally as groups, not pairs.


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## that Frog Guy (May 13, 2012)

sports_doc said:


> Lance
> 
> Without going through the whole thing...
> 
> I have ~110 vivs....and I keep at least 3 vivs of each 'type', generally as groups, not pairs.


Wow! 110 Vivariums.

Is that the record possibly?

Does anybody have more than you?

How many Fruit Fly Cultures do you have to make every week?


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

We have 70... plus another 30-40 for froglets... 14 fruit fly cultures a week, plus springs, isos, flour and bean beetles, and roaches. And any show we go to we pick up pin had crickets.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

oh its no record that is for sure.

I had 2x that when they were fish tanks and not custom vivs but I downsized.

I would imagine there are business out there with 300+


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

Makes you wonder what kind of attention those frogs get other than dump flies in and move onto the next one.


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

Ours are checked on quite a bit, all live in pretty nice tanks (minus froglets who are just in temp tanks since they are not permanent residents).


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

bsr8129 said:


> Makes you wonder what kind of attention those frogs get other than dump flies in and move onto the next one.


Why would you _assume_ they get less attention? Perhaps the keeper just has more spare time? I have a large collection and they get just as much attention now, as when I had a single tank. I'm older, work from home a lot and it's freezing in the winter. 

10 years ago, I was so damn busy, I wouldn't even consider keeping any pets!

So, maybe more doesn't equal less. Just more time involved looking after them...


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

frogfreak said:


> Why would you _assume_ they get less attention? Perhaps the keeper just has more spare time? I have a large collection and they get just as much attention now, as when I had a single tank. I'm older, work from home a lot and it's freezing in the winter.
> 
> 10 years ago, I was so damn busy, I wouldn't even consider keeping any pets!
> 
> So, maybe more doesn't equal less. Just more time involved looking after them...


Id agree with that. I just have time allotted to spend down in the frog room every day. Some days it is going through checking for eggs, other days pulling tads from all the thumbs, trimming plants, adding leaves, etc, etc. I would guess a lot of people who are serious hobbyists with large collections put more time and effort in than you would think.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

therizman2 said:


> We have 70... plus another 30-40 for froglets... 14 fruit fly cultures a week, plus springs, isos, flour and bean beetles, and roaches. And any show we go to we pick up pin had crickets.




How do you only male 14 cultures a week? I make many more but don't have as many tanks. Wouldn't feel I'd have enough flies if I made that little. Though I certainly wish I could make that few.


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