# Didn't want this to be my first post (Unhealthy frog)



## Ghostkerbomb (Aug 2, 2015)

Having built vivariums for years and grown as a hobbyist through research and experimental trial and error I recently decided to take the next step and begin raising frogs. 

I acquired three Leuc and three Auratus froglets from a reputable source.

They are being raised in two, five gallon aquariums. Each has a glass top and an approx 1" x 5" screened vent. Orchid moss as a substrate with a moderate amount of pothos cuttings for cover. Temperatures have not exceeded 82 and generally sit about 78. Humidity is good. Tanks only receive indirect light

The Auratus are happy.

One of the leucs is not. 
I've owned them for about 2 weeks. They are fed generously, almost daily, with supplemented melos. Rep cal plus is used with every feeding. The supplement is 3 months old though has been stored on a shelf as opposed to refrigerated.
Up until today the Leuc has been eating aggressively.

After not seeing the previously visible trio together all morning I misted the tank and began lifting up a pothos leaves to ease my mind that the third had not escaped. 
Upon finding the third froglet my hand got very close to touching it...and the stimulus didn't elicit a reaction in the frog. This surprised me and I proceeded to graze my finger across its back. The frog fell over sideways off a clump of orchid moss as still as a statue. Alarmed, I righted the fellow, closed the tank and left em alone. 

Over the next couple of hours the frog appeared to regain a bit of strength and picked itself up off the substrate and was able to support its own weight. It pivoted in place though did not move. There is no vibration of the throat pouch...I don't know what that means. 

Fearing injury from tankmates or possible contamination I decided to quarantine this frog. In the process, picking up a clump of orchid moss below the frog like a base, it seized, legs stretched back. Ffs a couple drops of pedialyte/calcium gluconate solution were dropped onto the frogs back and he was set aside somewhere quiet.

Two hours later there has been no change. The froglet is still alive because it responded to my flashlight with a twitch. But limbs are still sprawled. He's slightly bloated compared to tank mates but well within reason compared to swelling cases seen when looking at symptoms in other threads here.

Pictures can be added tomorrow. Seeing as he's photo sensitive at least I don't want to disturb him with the necessary lighting. 

So I'm just kinda chilling, as my frog likely dies. It sucks. So any advice or opinions are welcome. Not sure what happened. Dark cloud that I am maybe the initial act of being discovered by Sir Enormous Hand startled the little guy and subsequent poking stressed him to the edge of death. Are dart frogs really as fragile as soap bubbles?


Nice to meet you all


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear about your froglet. I don't have hardly any experience with frog diseases (yet anyway). I've only lost one for what appeared to be no reason. The frog looked healthy one day the next day very lethargic and within about 2 hours it had died. It was in a tank with two others and they are both still fine (that was a long while ago).

Sorry that's your first point. I'll cross my fingers for you and hope he/she makes it. Hang in there.
Mike


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## Ghostkerbomb (Aug 2, 2015)

Unfortunately, as is usually the case, the frog has died. The bloated look is gone which seems to fit the rapid weight loss of dead frogs. 

Appreciate the well wishes regardless, it is just unfortunate. It'd be ok if there was some sort of lesson to learn from this, a mistake not to make again. But as it stands its only reaffirmation of the fact all little things don't get to grow up and be big things.


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## SwampMan (Jun 26, 2015)

Not suggesting this is the cause, but how much air circulation are your tanks getting? And is 78 to 82 a little on the warm side?


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## Ghostkerbomb (Aug 2, 2015)

If it was the cause, all the better, its something to fix. Theorize away

The ventilation is passive through the small screen. Additionally the tanks are opened briefly at least once a day. Is this sufficient?

Those temps are a little on the warm side, yes. Other discussions say that temp range is not lethal. I've been working to correct this situation anyhow and bring it down another 5 degrees.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

SwampMan said:


> And is 78 to 82 a little on the warm side?


No. Those temps are fine _for Leucs._


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

Although many people report luecs doing well in the higher range of the recommended temps for darts (80-82), I still wouldn't recommend keeping them that way permanantly. Not saying this had anything to do with your loss, just a recommendation. I'd shoot for 79-80 tops, with drops in temps at night time.
Next thing I would say is you should seriously consider a much larger vivarium with a proper substrate and drainage layer. A 20 standard or long would be good for a trio of luecs. Having a good draining substrate allows not only for good plant growth but for water to fall through keeping your substrate from becoming stagnant and becoming a breeding ground for all types of nasties. Again, just a recommendation. Do people keep frogs in 5 gal tanks? Yes. Some even breed them in those tanks. Most of recommend much larger vivariums for the long term health of the frogs. Stress can be a big factor with frogs in cramped conditions. 
Pothos are great for providing hiding and roosting spots for frogs and they are cheap and grow fast. Be sure that you properly rinsed them after bringing them home from a nursery. Ferts and pesticides are often used and can transfer to your vivariums if they are not thouroughly washed.
We have all lost frogs. unfortunately it is often part of the learning curve. Don't let it get you down. Keep learning, keep asking questions, keep adjusting your vivarium conditions to best suit the frogs being kept in them and most of all, KEEP ON FROGGING!


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> Although many people report luecs doing well in the higher range of the recommended temps for darts (80-82), I still wouldn't recommend keeping them that way permanantly. Not saying this had anything to do with your loss, just a recommendation. I'd shoot for 79-80 tops, with drops in temps at night time.


I personally wouldn't even worry if the temp spiked to 85 once in a while, but I'd be more concerned due to these particular frogs apparently being young.



MELLOWROO421 said:


> Next thing I would say is you should seriously consider a much larger vivarium with a proper substrate and drainage layer. A 20 standard or long would be good for a trio of luecs. Having a good draining substrate allows not only for good plant growth but for water to fall through keeping your substrate from becoming stagnant and becoming a breeding ground for all types of nasties. Again, just a recommendation. Do people keep frogs in 5 gal tanks? Yes. Some even breed them in those tanks. Most of recommend much larger vivariums for the long term health of the frogs. Stress can be a big factor with frogs in cramped conditions.


The OP says they're only _froglets_, and that he/she has only had them _for 2 weeks_. I wouldn't go putting them in fully built 20g yet. Should they not stay in a simple quarantine-type enclosure, similar to what they're currently being kept in for a few more weeks? One with a simple substrate and some pothos clippings for the time being? Especially considering one was unhealthy and perished, I'd personally want to keep watch on the remaining two just to be safe.


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

If the idea is quarantine then a small basic set up is fine, but 3 frogs in 5 gal. is too small IMO. Again, just my opinion. I use what has worked for me and I advise against things that have not worked for me out of pure prior experience. What has worked or not worked for me may be different than others experiences. 
I would personally NEVER tell someone that 85 is fine. Has it happened to me? Yes. Have my frogs survived? Yes. Do I think that is the message to send to new hobbiests trying to gain some experience? No. Everyone has what works for them, but for a new keeper, safe responsible tried and true methods should be taught. Again, just my opinion.


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## Ghostkerbomb (Aug 2, 2015)

Yea, the goal is daytime highs of 75 or lower during the summer like this. Have taken a lot of steps to control temperature lately including solar screen, air conditioning, and installation of a dozen 80mm case fans to cool lights. Really don't want heat getting all murderous on these guys.

As far as the housing arrangements go, the 5 gallon tanks are just so they can get a little bigger for a couple months. Something simple where they have fewest opportunities to do something stupid. Would you suggest letting them grow in something that much larger?

They will later be moved to the larger tank that hopefully shows up in the attachments that may or may not load. My apologies if they are not formatted properly or something ( tank is still a work in progress)

The pothos are cuttings from this big ole plant I've had awhile so it shouldn't be toxins from that...its not fertilized at all.

Not too discouraged. I'm aware that nature does its thing, can kill you, and things die. But now there's this trepidation of getting anywhere too close to the remaining frogs. I'm afraid to move their tank of the shelf during feeding time for fear of stress. Touching one (not like a toy but for any legitimate reason) is now akin to the grim reaper harvesting souls with swift and brutal efficency


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## Ghostkerbomb (Aug 2, 2015)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> If the idea is quarantine then a small basic set up is fine, but 3 frogs in 5 gal. is too small IMO.


What would you recommend for a growing trio? In another thread someone used these steralite tubs with gasket sealed lids and drilled a hole in the top to install I believe a vent. Not sure the dimensions, but would something 10 gallon or so offer that offers not a huge amount of increased floor space offer that much of a benefit?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ghostkerbomb said:


> . Rep cal plus is used with every feeding. The supplement is 3 months old though has been stored on a shelf as opposed to refrigerated.


Rep-cal or Calcium Plus? They are not the same product and are not interchangable. 



Ghostkerbomb said:


> Up until today the Leuc has been eating aggressively.


This is generally an indication that it isn't dietary.

No the frogs are much hardier than many people consider them to be... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ghostkerbomb said:


> What would you recommend for a growing trio? In another thread someone used these steralite tubs with gasket sealed lids and drilled a hole in the top to install I believe a vent. Not sure the dimensions, but would something 10 gallon or so offer that offers not a huge amount of increased floor space offer that much of a benefit?


Decent sized gasket tubs with proper ventilation work great and if you use the proper mesh size virtually fruit fly escape proof. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> If the idea is quarantine then a small basic set up is fine, but 3 frogs in 5 gal. is too small IMO. Again, just my opinion. I use what has worked for me and I advise against things that have not worked for me out of pure prior experience. What has worked or not worked for me may be different than others experiences.
> I would personally NEVER tell someone that 85 is fine. Has it happened to me? Yes. Have my frogs survived? Yes. Do I think that is the message to send to new hobbiests trying to gain some experience? No. Everyone has what works for them, but for a new keeper, safe responsible tried and true methods should be taught. Again, just my opinion.


The problem with the temperature recommendations is that too often they are based on dogma that doesn't match up with what we actually know about the frogs. The ability to withstand higher temperatures is a function of acclimation, ventilation and species. The more the enclosure is closed to maximize humidity, the lower the safe threshold temperature, the more a person keeps the frogs at 75 F or below, the greater the chance they will undergo significant stress if they are exposed to temperatures above 80 F. 

Instead of saying that 85 F is too high, how about saying larger vents to provide greater ventilation and try to keep it under 80 F..... remember that microniche humidity means we don't have to keep them as close to 90-100% humidity as possible..... 

Some comments


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## Ghostkerbomb (Aug 2, 2015)

Ed said:


> Rep-cal or Calcium Plus? They are not the same product and are not interchangable.
> 
> Ed


Its Rephashy superfoods calcium plus. Picture's worth a thousand words.



Ed said:


> Decent sized gasket tubs with proper ventilation work great and if you use the proper mesh size virtually fruit fly escape proof.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Will moving a trio of froglets to a larger enclosure (10g+) significantly decrease their stress?

Not my place to weigh in on discussions of accurate temperature range and regulation ability...just gonna take in opinions now


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Moving them will stress them a little initially but if you include some of the furnishings from the original enclosure it will help settle them down. People underestimate the ability of some dendrobatids to use olfaction to locate their home range. See 

McVey, M. E., Zahary, R. G., Perry, D., & MacDougal, J. (1981). Territoriality and homing behavior in the poison dart frog (Dendrobates pumilio). Copeia, 1-8 

(there is also a study demonstrating it in auratus but I couldn't locate it quickly). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Ghostkerbomb said:


> Its Rephashy superfoods calcium plus. Picture's worth a thousand words.
> 
> 
> 
> Will moving a trio of froglets to a larger enclosure (10g+) significantly decrease their stress


Rephashy calcium plus is good stuff and should work fine. Some people confuse it with rep-cal calcium/ herpvite stuff, which is not the same. 

Honestly, I do not think that the small tank was the cause of death. It may not hurt to have a 10 gallon, but I personally don't think it will help tremendously either for froglets. While I wouldn't grow out frogs long term in a small tank like that, I've used 2.5 and 5 gallons for raising some smaller froglets and they all do fine. 

My leucs have always been the most tolerant of heat (except for maybe pumilio), and their tank routinely hits low-mid 80's during the summer afternoons. I do not _encourage_ this, nor do I intentionally do it, but it happens and they are fine. As Ed and others have pointed out many times, temperature is just one factor along with humidity, air movement, access to niches for evaporative cooling, etc. that play a part in thermoregulation and heat stress. 

Unfortunately I don't have answers but I did just want to say that it looks like you are doing it right, or at least much better than most people who face frog deaths early on with bad supplements, bad tank setup, 100% sealed tanks with high temps, etc. So as frustrating as it can be, keep an eye on the others and I think you will be successful with them, sorry for your loss.

Bryan


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