# New Pa. Dept. of Ag Reptile and amphibian dealer's license



## Michael Shrom

The Pa. dept. of Ag came up with some interesting new permits. To sell reptiles and amphibians in Pa. you need a Reptile and amphibian dealers license (50.00). To commercially breed reptiles and amphibians in Pa. you need a Reptile and amphibian artificial propagation license (150.00). Some of the details are a little sketchy. Go to wwws.agriculture.state.pa.us for more info. Look under "Business and Industry," scroll down to "Aquaculture" and select "more" In this area you should find the registration forms.

I emailed to find out more details.

What do you think or know about this?


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## Alan

Michael: I haven't heard anything about this - but it should make the Hamburg show interesting if the State does a permit inspection.

Alan


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## Ridge

I saw that they were proposing this, looks like it passed. According to the PA Fish and Game Comm. they have until Jan 31 to post the listing of animals that are permitted to be sold or propogated in PA. IT also says they are going to consult with hobbyists to determine which animals to add to that list. They originally weren't going to charge fees for registration, looks like that changed. 

The biggest concern that PA has always had is the release of non native species into the wild - this would include any microorganisms or diseases that might get into the water supply or infect native species. 

I would recommend calling the number on the application and seeing if they can just include all dendrobates, mantellas, etc in general under the propogation and sale list that they are putting together. 

Here is a link to the new law effective Jan 1. 
http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Fish_B ... 79nprp.htm


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## Michael Shrom

I called and emailed the Dept. of Ag. about the permits. The best I can figure is they want you to have the permits by the 1st of the year but they won't have the list of the allowed animals posted till the end of January. Their is also the possibility they will only post animals that are not allowed. If they would post what is not allowed it would simplify things.


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## jth1974

Hello there Mike,

As a fellow breeder in the Great state of Pa thanks for posting this. Please keep us up to date as to what you hear back from them also. 

The way I am reading things it looks like any of us that want to breed and sell in Pa will have to get one of these permits. Thou technically right now I am a "hobbiest breeder" I figure I may as well get the permit as my collection has 300+ frogs and I would hate to get in any kind of legal trouble for not having the premits.


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## Ed

snip " They originally weren't going to charge fees for registration, looks like that changed. "endsnip

they moved from that position after the first meeting when they got an idea that there was a significant number of people keeping herps. 

It will have a major impact on Hamburg and any other shows in PA as it would also prohibit people meeting in the parking lot... 

Ed


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## kyle1745

Don't they have anything better to do than make laws like this?

Any thoughts on how this would impact people outside of the state selling animals to people in PA?

From a quick read of the link it seems this may only apply to native species of PA.


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## Michael Shrom

I think the native species is a big part of it. The way i read the Dept. of Ag. stuff you are required to have a live reptile and amphibian dealer permit to sell reptiles or amphibians in PA. If you are a resident of Pa. you need the artificial propagation permit to breed in Pa. I'm not sure if the dealer permit applies to sales through the mail. I think the reptile and amphibian dealers license replaces the old domestic animal dealer and hauler license. Some of the info is a little vague but I hope to figure out how to continue to be legit.

When the storm troopers show up at Hamburg I want them to leave me alone.


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## kyle1745

I read it quick and it seemed to be a draft but it seemed to only apply to native species of PA, so for most of what we work with it may not an issues. Granted with some of what you work with Mike you may have to work with it no matter what.

Keep us updated, as Im sure this is not the last and other states love to follow with this type of thing.


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## Ridge

Actually Kyle, this new law primarily applies to non Native species as it has always been illegal to sell PA native species. There is some discussion around propogation of native species since some people do breed native frogs and fish - primarily for fishing bait use. 

I hate this type of legislation because it is so vague that people will interpret it differently. For those of you in PA I would make sure you document your collection and breeding efforts now (prior to Jan 1) as a precautionary measure - that way you can fall on any grandfather clauses that may be necessary. I hate to think that the decision on what animals are allowed to be kept and bred in PA will probably be made by someone who has never seen a dart frog. 

Keep in mind that similar vague reptile laws occurred before in PA and Ohio with turtles. With this new law, Fish and Game just moved spotted turtles and Eastern Box turtles to the endangered species list. I am happy about that but if you have one of those as a pet you better have documentation that you had it previously and don't even think about breeding them. 

I am glad I don't live in PA anymore, but I am sorry for those of you that have to deal with this...


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## kyle1745

Some interesting qoutes from the link you posted, but honestly who writes this crap... Its some of the most unorganized contradicting crap around. Man am I glad I was never interested in law... 



> The proposed §79.8 provides that *except for hobby breeders*, it is unlawful to artificially propagate reptiles and amphibians without being registered with the Department. It further provides that artificial propagation is limited to species approved for propagation by the Commission, and the Commission will maintain a list of such species. Commission staff intend to develop this list with input from the captive breeders.





> (9) Section 79.9: The proposed §79.9 *(relating to sale of native species) addresses the sale of reptiles and amphibians currently contained in §77.3 (relating to taking and selling reptiles or amphibians under section 2102(b) and (c) of the code). This section has been clarified to reflect the intent of the Commission to protect the native herptiles of the Commonwealth and their progeny.* The demand for both wild caught and captive bred reptiles and amphibians, including several native to Pennsylvania, has increased considerably over the past several years. While our waterways conservation officers go through intense training on the identification of the Commonwealth’s native species, it can be almost impossible to tell whether an individual animal is captive bred or wild caught. This is especially true for hatchling or juvenile animals, the preferred product for reptile and amphibian dealers. This section helps to eliminate the profit motive for both collection and sale of native species in this Commonwealth and the collection of animals in this Commonwealth for breeding stock for commercial propagation programs.
> 
> This section differs from the original proposed rulemaking in that it eliminates a provision (subsection (b)) that the Commission deemed to be superfluous because the language already is contained in the code.


Then there is this:


> §79.8. Artificial propagation.
> 
> Except for hobby breeders as defined in 3 Pa. C.S. Ch. 42 (relating to aquaculture development), it is unlawful to artificially propagate reptiles and amphibians without being registered with the Department of Agriculture under 3 Pa. C.S. Ch. 42. It is unlawful to artificially propagate reptiles and amphibians except those species that the Commission has approved for artificial propagation in the Commonwealth. The Bureau of Fisheries will maintain a list of species for which the Department of Agriculture may issue registrations for artificial propagation and registrations for dealers of live aquatic animals. The Director of the Bureau of Fisheries may update or modify the list of authorized species by adding species to or deleting species from the list as necessary for the protection and management of reptiles and amphibians in this Commonwealth. The Commission will provide the list to the Department of Agriculture on or before January 31 each year and whenever the Commission updates or modifies the list. Copies of the list of authorized species are available upon request from the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission, Bureau of Fisheries, 450 Robinson Lane, Bellefonte, PA 16823.


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## Ridge

I am interested in law which is why I have been following this for a while. 

That last paragraph you quoted is the dangerous one. The "list" can be modified by them at any time and for any reason. As soon as someone says " oh, POISON dart frogs!?!, what if they got loose outside, multiplied in our waterways, and some people ate them and died?" Obviously impossible as we know, but that sentence is all it would take for the agricultural dept to rule on the side of caution and remove them from the "list". That is part of the lawsuit society we live in and Pennsylvania is at the core of it with many of their vague laws. 

They are stepping over some constitutional boundries with this "profiling" and discriminatory behavior towards herp breeders, but nothing they won't get away with...

Did you guys see the issue in California where they put chocolate chip cookie scent pads on city buses as part of the "Got Milk?" campaign? They smelled great and people loved them but someone said "what if someone is allergic to the smell and sues the city?" The scent pads were gone the next day. Like the bus fumes and all the other smells on that bus won't make you sick as it is. There are daily examples of these ridiculous but likely issues....someone would have probably sued over that sooner or later, just like someone probably will over a poison frog someday...


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## Michael Shrom

So far Penna. has been fast and loose with their regulations. Previously they took an animal haulers law and reinterpreted it to mean you need an animal haulers permit if you purchase for resale any animal in the state of Pa. This law was originally written for cows, goats, sheep, dogs, etc. They decided to apply it to all animals one year. The guy in charge told me you need it even if you are buying and selling earthworms. 

I got a letter about the new law because I had the animal huauler license. Most reptile and amphibian breeders in Pa. and people that sell reptile and amphibians in Pa. don't know the law goes into affect next month. I don't think the Dept. of ag is completely prepared either. My guess is the majority of vendors at the Hamburg show will be in violation for awhile. I guess the big question is how does the Dept of Ag view the Reptile and Amphibian industry? 
In a newspaper article a few years ago the Pa. Game commission referred to the Hamburg reptile show as an outlaw reptile show. I think things will tighten up a little but hopefully the new laws will help to legitimize and not eliminate a growing hobby and industry in Pa.


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## kyle1745

All I can say is for anyone in PA keep on top of this. With things like this they spread like wild fire and normally are based on completely false data. People assume poisonous to be bad, and normally it is, but with anything there is normally more information than meets the eye.


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## Guest

Wow I am scared to think on how many other states will jump on this bandwagon, and what other animals will become regulated as to what you can or can't do with them. I have some saltwater tanks and I shudder to think what would happen if they tried to control fragging.


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## zaroba

that sucks. i'm not so much worried about the frogs thing yet (still don't have any), but i have a few Eastern Box Turtles. there goes my chances of catching a female and breeding them if there now endangered.


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## defaced

What defines a "hobby breeder" is going to be crucial in deciding who it held to this law.


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## joeyo90

id like to see what the "hobby breeder" is and what the list is like
i see "hobby breeder" mentioned several times but never a definition... :x 
thanks for this post micheal


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## Chondroholic

IMO, this regulation has too many loopholes. Just about anyone they try to uphold this to will be able to make a reasonable defense as to why they shouldn't need the permit. Also, Chris Urban(Who is sort of the top guy at PA F & G) spoke at my local herp society last spring about the new regulations they were making up. He said no one in PA has the authority to regulate non-native species, which leads me to believe we may be interpreting this wrong.


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## kyle1745

When I read it, and I am by no means a lawyer, it seemed only related to native species.


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## joeyo90

hmm now that you guys say that i see the only realy big point mentioned about no-native species says your not alowed to release them into the wild


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## Michael Shrom

It looks like eveyone at the Dept. of Ag. is on vacation this week. Hopefully I'll get some answers next week. Native species are a big part of this but it is much more than that. 

By the way the Pa. pet stores better get rid of those red efts by next Monday.


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## Michael Shrom

Here's the poop. I talked to Mary Bates from the Dept. of Ag. today. She said that fish and game doesn't like the way the application is on the internet and she has to redo it. She just got the approved species list today. Basically all non native species are approved. The artificial propogation license is a 5 year permit and costs 150.00. The dealer license is a 5 year license and costs 50.00. The dealer license is free if you have the propagation license. Applications will not be ready for at least 2 to 3 weeks. The applications now on the internet will not be accepted.

This will be fine for me. I'll need to pay a 150.00 fee for both permits and they will last 5 years. I'm not certain how these perrmits apply to non Pa residents but suspect they must have the dealer license to sell reptiles and amphibians in Pa.


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## jth1974

Cool thanks for the update Mike


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## Delawarejim

This is my first post, but I've been lurking for about a year now.....

I think many people are over reacting on this issue.

As a federal conservation program employee, I know how these types of regs are generally written and have a fairly good idea that the new law is two-fold.

1. The state wants to protect native species from competition from unwanted invasives.

2. The state wants to prevent "repto mills" similar to the problems they're having now with "puppy mills"; breeding huge numbers of unhealthy native or non-native species that may either escape, or be intentionally released if too many people complain about the animals living conditions.

Notice, as many of you pointed out in your posts, hobby breeders are exempted. Unless you folks are cranking out a hundred or so PDF's a month, you're at best a hobby breeder; most likely a successful hobbyist. The fees are in scale with the anticipated income from production. That's why a dog breeding license is so much more than a $4-5 dog license. Finally, using some common sense here, how many of you think your PDF's would survive a typical PA winter?

This will generate a lot of buzz at Hamburg but that's about it.

Cheers.
Jim


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## Michael Shrom

I think the fact that I don't do much with native U.S. animals is in my favor. Many of these types of laws deal with native stuff. Their have been some states that have tried to outlaw poisonous frogs. I think the regulations should be well thought out. 

What does give me pause is I am in violation of the new regulations because they went into effect the first of the year. The current application form is not valid and permits are not being issued. I'm sure nobody would cite you for not having a permit you are required to have but can not apply for. Or am I?

A friend of mine was told he could not legally sell preying mantids in Pa. because they were crop pests. When he pointed out that they only eat insects and not plants the enforcement agent told him he knows that because he is an entomologist but that is not how the rules are written. Their is a process to get a permit for breeding mantids in Pa. but nobody ever got one.

My major concern is the way extra things are thrown in with some of these regulations. With the old animal haulers license the rule didn't change but the interpretation did. All of a sudden the farm animal rule included any living animal sold in Pa. This year it is being interpreted differently.

I'll get my permits eventually and everything will be fine. I will keep a closer eye on legislation and be sure to be in contact with the people that enforce the rules.


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## kyle1745

Jim,

My own concerns as well as other hobbiests are that while these laws are all based on good ideas they are normally very unclear and poorly implemented. So there are always loophole and or gotchas. So what clearly denotes a hobbiest? Breeding 50 frogs vers 51? Is that monthly, yearly or ever? My point is these things are normally created and written by people with a law background or maybe 1-2 species experience. They by no means fully understand what is put on paper. Also to write a document that encompassed the detail I am eluding to would be extremely long.

So while I totally agree with puppy mills, protecting the native species, and preventing reptile mills. I see no reason there is not a HUGE list of exempt species including all Dendrobates, and related species as well as most fish and etc. The law could be written very direct to the concern they have if they attempted to do so, but rather they made it general and virtually full of holes.


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## markpulawski

Also understanding that 2 different officials could interpret the exact same statement 2 different ways, it leaves the door open for unintended restrictions.


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## nagasaki

My OPINION Is the_ Less _all say/call reply to this the Better ! If alot of concerns are said to the Dept of Ag. Itll prob. set them in gear to enforce it. (just my opinion)


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## frogparty

5 year old dead post resurrection!!! A new DB record?


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## Brotherly Monkey

nagasaki said:


> My OPINION Is the_ Less _all say/call reply to this the Better ! If alot of concerns are said to the Dept of Ag. Itll prob. set them in gear to enforce it. (just my opinion)


you realize this thread is over 5 years old?


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## ZookeeperDoug

nagasaki said:


> My OPINION Is the_ Less _all say/call reply to this the Better ! If alot of concerns are said to the Dept of Ag. Itll prob. set them in gear to enforce it. (just my opinion)


The irony........


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## Judy S

talk about "lurking..."


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## thedude

frogparty said:


> 5 year old dead post resurrection!!! A new DB record?


I can beat that record! Now where's that search function that's so hard to find...?


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## mordoria

So what ever happened? Did people in PA have issues changing over?


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## Michael Shrom

Brotherly Monkey said:


> you realize this thread is over 5 years old?


It is appropriate that this post be brought up. The 5 year old permits have expired. Their is no info on the internet at the Pa. Dept. of Ag. site about getting a new permit or renewing permits. I emailed the dept. of ag. a little over a week ago and received no answer. Maybe the are revamping the program or just are not emphasizing it. I'll ask around at Hamburg and find out if anybody knows what is going on with Pa. breeder and seller permits.


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## eightcats

Michael Shrom said:


> It is appropriate that this post be brought up. The 5 year old permits have expired. Their is no info on the internet at the Pa. Dept. of Ag. site about getting a new permit or renewing permits. I emailed the dept. of ag. a little over a week ago and received no answer. Maybe the are revamping the program or just are not emphasizing it. I'll ask around at Hamburg and find out if anybody knows what is going on with Pa. breeder and seller permits.


Have there been any updates on the current 2012 requirements?


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## Michael Shrom

The permits are the same. The person who was in charge of issuing them retired but her contact info wasn't taken off of the dept of ag site. Dept. of ag is aware of the problem.


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