# IAD Policy Discussion Was: Not Attending IAD



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I apologize but I will be withdrawing my request for a table at IAD this year. I have been made aware of a situation which will not allow me support by vending there.
Certain situations over animals allowed for sale at IAD have made me impose their standards of acceptable frogs by myself and will withdraw my request for a table.
I apologize for any inconvenience to people I have already made promises to. I will work to rectify the situation in some other way.

Aaron Handzlik
Aaron`s Frog Farm


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

"Farm Raised" frogs have always been considered Wild Caught Aaron. I assume this is what you speak of.

This has been the policy since day one.

Scott
Sanford, Maine


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Not what I`m talking about, sorry.
I won`t go into it. I`ve made my decision and won`t get into a long debate about it. I don`t have the time or energy to type anymore.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

First let me say that I don't know the particulars of Aarons pulling out, but I have heard other complaints from vendors and potential vendors and this is my opinion:
I think their policies are starting to go against the concept of what IAD supposedly stands for in the first place, which is supposed to be conservation. By not allowing animals from Mark Pepper/Understory and INIBICO they are directly hurting the conservation efforts that both of these entities have worked so hard to put in place. That to me is counter productive and makes no sense. I'm not going to go into the "farm-raised" vs "wild caught" debate as it has been discussed ad-nauseum, but you mean to tell me that what Understory and INIBICO are doing does not constitute "captive bred" and "conservation minded"? Is it now a "captive bred in the United States" only show? I'm sure I'll do better personally at the show without those animals there, but again, doesn't that go against the purpose of the show to begin with? How much money do you think the other vendors (myself included) are putting back into conservation? Comparitively little is my guess, and yes I know there are exceptions. I'm not knocking the other vendors, just trying to make a point. Why is IAD not supporting these projects? am I missing something, have they determined that INIBICO and Understory are BS?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Mark (understory)has dedicated his life to these animals. He truly breeds frogs in captivity and they should be allowed for sale. Not to metion the frogs in question were 2nd gen peruvian frogs and mantellas bred in canada. They are truly captive bred. All of his stock. I knew Mark 12 years ago and Mark was already breeding pumilio. He taught me a lot of what I know. The man gets dysentary going out looking for your new frogs. He hikes thru the thickest shit and puts his life in danger doing what he does strictly for the frogs. I`m sure there are easier and safer ways to make a living than that.
He has purchased tracts of land for conservation.
He has his permits and goes thru his inspections. He treats chytrid infested frogs and cares for frogs confiscated from smugglers, treating them and nursing them back to health. He has a wealth of knowledge about these animals and ALWAYS has their best interest in mind.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Exactly my point...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Thank You Robb.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Maybe I am missing something, but farm raised offspring are ok aren't they?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Offspring - yes.

But from what Aaron said the first time - that's not what the problem is.

I've written him privately and asked him to explain - haven't heard from him.

I'm not crazy about the whole thing. Possibly it's time to revisit it. *BUT*, the folks who wanted to sell "Farm Raised" Pumilio were raising "heck" that other "farm raised" animals were going to be allowed to be sold.

Maybe it's all a documentation thing as INIBICO and Understory *are* better documented.

s


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Maybe only allowing them from those specific projects is in order?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Which has the people selling "farm raised" pumilio screaming foul.

I'm of the opinion that INIBICO and Understory frogs should be allowed. But we'll see what happens.

s



kyle1745 said:


> Maybe only allowing them from those specific projects is in order?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

If you allow galacts, matechos, regina, terribilis, brazil nuts, and most of the thumbs in the hobby which were never imported w/ conservation efforts in mind and not allow recent breakthrus in the way we get our frogs in it`s wrong. farm raised aside it seems like a way for a lot of vendors to block conservation efforts and add to their pockets. What is the meaning behind this event? I didn`t really go thru this w/ mwff as I didn`t hear of anyone trying to go there w/ these efforts in mind.
I`ll have a bunch of escudos, bastis and others if I go and I don`t see anything wrong w/ farm raised even if it was always that way. As long as they can document projects, conservation of the species at home is at hand. If everyone buys my few lines there is no conservation in mind for the frogs as good people will loose a chance to get diverse bloodlines and they`ll only have access to mine(and others but still not enough to sustain a population).


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

At this point, Adult Escudos are likely the only obvious thing that will not be allowed. This is *me* saying this, not the IAD Committee.

Escudos basically haven't been around long enough that the offspring will have grown to be adults yet.

All the frogs you mention (except Brazil Nuts) are allowed. As long as they're not "Wild Caught". It's fairly obvious that the imported "farm raised" pumilio are not exactly farm raised, or at least not in the same way as INIBICO and Understory.

I know you understand the difference between the frogs you named, and the current batch of incoming frogs. Galact, matechos, regina - whatever - have all had offspring. The offspring are Captive Born. They're allowed. Brazil Nuts we keep out bc/ of the whole back story with them (which I won't go into, but I'm sure you know).

INIBICO and Understory are legit farm raising operations. Some of the Pumilio are pretty much not.

If you would like to discuss this further, I encourage you to email me. Trust me when I tell you I'm working towards allowing INIBICO/Understory frogs, but it's certainly not up to (just) me.

s


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I understand and I appreciate the efforts, I really do.
what if my cb are adults by IAD. I can take pics now as they are 1/2 grown at 8 weeks.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'd say documentation takes you a looong way towards acceptance. Seriously.

It's the one thing we've discussed, and that is generally not available so it's tough to require.

Pics of the "operation" from eggs, tads, froglets, 1/2 grown - to sale, will do it as far as I am concerned. I'm normally the most anal one looking around as well. 

s


frogfarm said:


> I understand and I appreciate the efforts, I really do.
> what if my cb are adults by IAD. I can take pics now as they are 1/2 grown at 8 weeks.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

There are pics on the board of my bastis w/ froglets and escudos w/ eggs and froglets in my gallery along w/ documentation of my christos froglets and eggs and man creeks frogletsand eggs and also my chiriqui rivers. Do I have to waste the paper and ink or can I send them to you or you can look in my gallery.
I really don`t mean to be a wise ass but if I do end up attending( if things are agreed upon and there is a table left by the time this is settled) I`d like to know what documentation I need.
As far as the farm raised, i understand issues w/ those although I also think the bloodlines should be there, I`m not pushing for that. My main concern is with Mark and Marcus and Valentina representing him.
I`ll take pics and bring my camera or print them out if need be. 
Shoot if this is resolved I`ll do a talk on breeding pumilio and bring a slideshow to document my pumilio breeding as I did for mwff if need be.


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## SNDF (Mar 23, 2006)

Simply Natural Dart Frogs contacted IAD last week to request a vendor application and to confirm we would be allowed to sell imported captive bred Peruvian frogs. We were told to contact a member on the IAD board and get his permission.
We contacted an individual who returned our call later that evening. He informed me that the IAD board last year had decided that no imported frogs could be offered at the show.
We spoke about the frogs we were planning to sell were captive bred in Canada not Peru.
He again said “they are still imported and it would be impossible to prove they were captive bred in Canada.”

I have seen imported frogs in the past being sold at IAD so I assume this is a new policy?
If offering these captive bred frogs at IAD is not possible then what does that say about many of the current morphs of frogs WE ALL work with coming from what we know were smuggled frogs in Europe. WHY TRY AND DO IT THE RIGHT WAY. JUST IMPORT THEM FROM EUROPE?

Valentina and I having spent time in Peru at Mark and Manuel’s breeding facility were impressed with the effort and work put into their project.
Later that day we went on a 45 minute walk along a road with nothing but clear cut rainforest turned into chicken farms and yucca fields. At the end of our journey we were amazed to see a beautiful area purchased and protected by Understory Enterprises.
There were reticulatus and ventricultus everywhere. We are sure if it were not for their efforts to protect this area of the rainforest it would have been clear cut by now.
Clearly Mark Pepper has put his money and conservation effort into preserving these frogs we all enjoy so much, long before a single frog was ever sold.

Marcus & Valentina


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

When/where have you seen imported frogs at IAD? When we've seen them, they've been removed.

I understand your issues with Europe. Many of us agree with those issues.

s


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Not to change the subject, or to say that a CB only show is a bad thing...
But I've always found the name of the event misleading...
Having been around a while I (think I) understand now why it is called what it is...but...
International...as long as it was bred in the USA? :wink: :? 

I understand it is called that because of international conservation efforts (correct me if I'm wrong)...

I hope I made my point without sounding dis-respectful.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I think the International aspect of it is more to do with some of the speakers we've had, or the folks coming in to go to the show.

But you're point is well taken (and kind of funny). 

s


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I am sure the name is more like baseball's "The World Series", the name infers the series involves teams all over the globe, when in fact it is limited to North America. 





Scott said:


> I think the International aspect of it is more to do with some of the speakers we've had, or the folks coming in to go to the show.
> 
> But you're point is well taken (and kind of funny).
> 
> s


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

melissa68 said:


> I am sure the name is more like baseball's "The World Series", the name infers the series involves teams all over the globe, when in fact it is limited to North America.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You took the words right out of my mouth melissa


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

O.K. back to the conservation.
What is conservation? Only conserving land for these animals or does it include conserving a group of breeding individuals genetically diverse enough to support the population in captivity? This is at the core of Amphibian Ark and TWI. Trying to get us, as breeders to conserve what may be wiped out by chytrid. If the land is there and so is chytrid, we`ve failed to conserve anything.
If we only allow U.S. cb then we are limiting ourselves to mostly europeon stock which was originally smuggled to get it here. If the country of origin gives cites papers to farm raised animals then who are we to judge their methods? Isn`t this what we were bitching about w/ europe, no papers? so which is better cites papers from europe or cites from the country of origin?
Too many years this has been an event to fund breeders and now we have actual animals w/ cites papers and we value cb smuggled more than cites from the country of origin? Don`t we want them to make money off the frogs so they value the land that sustains them?
I just hate to see such good people put in so much work to not hit the goal they are trying to accomplish(the IAD board members).
I think about this shit every nite before I go to sleep and every morning when I wake up. Trying to figure some plan to have these guys around for the next generation. If we double our efforts to the wild and to susatining captive populations it may be possible to save some of them.
You realize farm raised is unique to the dart world, this is a new concept in attaining animals. If it is not supported it will not be implemented. Aside all the is it or isn`t it debate if we don`t support it it will not work. 
If they realize that all these new animals going extinct can make them money, whether truly farm raised or not, the idea of loosing potential profit will sink in. maybe it will at least implement searches before areas are slashed and burned to allow for animals to get into breeding programs. 
Something to think about. Think about it clearly, there is no I in FROGS.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I may be (and hopefully am) wrong, but it sounds like the IAD committee has a personal agenda adn maybe a personal bitch. I would venture to guess with all the FR and WC imports over the last year to two that the number of these frogs in the hobby by percentage is larger than any time in the past. I can see some points from the FR pumilio eventhough I personally don't agree with that objection, but the Understory adn INIBICO project frogs are 100% here because of conservation minded individuals. Why is the committee's PERSONAL gripe towards anything imported being accepted? Of all the frogs that will be at IAD, who has put more effort and money into conservation of dart frogs as a whole than Understory or IAD? What is lacking or missing in their mission statement and practices that other IAD vendors have that is making the committee reject them? It has to be a personal agenda against the idea of imported frogs as a whole despite the fact that these particular ones are doing the most to elevate the hobby. IMO, that is crap and the whole purpose and mission of IAD should be addressed, and it sounds like from this thread I am not the only one who thinks that way...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

There is nothing personal here. So please forget that.

s


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

And with all the joy and hype of captivus being rediscovered it was mentioned in a thread that Evan and the others were going to try to fast track getting the into the hobby... most likely by farming. I am going to go ahead and assume that IAD will stand against this frog and not allow it at future IAD's (obviously won't make this one) because it is farmed? There you go... way to support the conservation of a species and the efforts that have been made to establish it :?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I didn't mean personal as in you, but as in the committee and you saying forget it isn't going to change the fact that that is what it looks like. You want it forgotten, actions are the only way to accomplish that. Tell us what the real objection is because the reasons listed above just don't add up.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm on the IAD Committee - if it's personal to it, it's personal to me.

This is all about definitions. What's CB, what isn't?

If you go back and look at the M.A.R.S. charter (which is what we operate under), this whole thing will make more sense.

That said - I agree with most I've read here. But there are differing opinions on what terms actually mean. 

Trust me, you think *this* conversation is interesting? 

s


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

I do understand the whole thing with wanting more documentaion on the pumilio coming in. Ill give them that if they arent ready to allow them in the show. But the thing with Understroy just blows me away. So what was the point for Mark to go out of his way and work so hard to do all this the right way? I would like to hear what the committiee has to say about that. AND not only is Marks opreration completely legit it is also a huge conservaion project. And I know that IAD raises tons of money each year. BUT I have yet to hear of a conservation effort as efficent with its money and progress as Understroy except some of teh things Ron is doing at the ABG. Understroy get $......land is purchased....frogs and other flora and fauna are protected on that land. End of story. It doesnt get more effective then that.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I don't think anyone disagrees with Aaron's opinions that the farm raised frogs are our future. Their legitamacy is unquestioned. But, by the very definition of import: 



> 2 : to bring from a foreign or external source: as a : to bring (as merchandise) into a place or country from another country b : to transfer (as files or data) from one format to another usually within a new file


...so, the frogs in question are IMPORTS. Knowing this, why did anyone assume the frogs from Peru & Canada could be sold at IAD? 

Everyone should know by now, that IAD has always been captive born show. Complaining that wild caught animals have been sold there in the past is a moot, unprovable point. Since this is the case, why did everyone wait until the last month to question the validity of this rule?

Non profits are notoriously slow in making decisions. Often, they only exist because of existing agreements with other organizations. For example, from IAD's website, - IAD is a 501(c)(3) tax exempt which is supported by Mars Presentation Fund, Inc. - Without knowing the details of the agreement between the organizations, complaining about the limitations of animals allowed at IAD isn't going to do any good for this year.

If anyone is interested in getting these rules changed, work with the IAD committee to ammend their rules & charter. Learn why their rules are in the current form and then work proactively with others instead of pissing & moaning in public.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Sbreland,

I don't know where you are getting these ideas, but IAD is all about conservation. 

IAD is a non profit. Changes do not happen overnight! 

Although the projects with understory and INIBICO have been around for a while, the reality of getting these animals into the hobby only happened this year (yes, some pumilio came in before IAD last year). 

Everyone needs to sit back and realize that not all change can happen at the speed of light. The very idea of what conversation is in our hobby has drastically changed in the last year. 


I don't know where everyone gets this idea there is a conspiracy going on with IAD's committee and vendors. Haven't we all grown up and moved beyond the playground? 




sbreland said:


> And with all the joy and hype of captivus being rediscovered it was mentioned in a thread that Evan and the others were going to try to fast track getting the into the hobby... most likely by farming. I am going to go ahead and assume that IAD will stand against this frog and not allow it at future IAD's (obviously won't make this one) because it is farmed? There you go... way to support the conservation of a species and the efforts that have been made to establish it :?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Some people involved (cough, cough) lost their entire evening yesterday to this conversation. 

If you guys think it's easy stuff, feel free to volunteer.

Thank you for speaking up Melis. You have a good grasp on the situation.

Now... that's _not_ to say that I wouldn't like to see some changes. But I'm not the authority (we can all be thankful for that) - I'm one of many in the group. And all I can say is we're talking about it.

s


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Scott said:


> I'm on the IAD Committee - if it's personal to it, it's personal to me.


I think your comments before made that fairly obvious, so it wouldn't take a genius to figure that out. Well, if you are the only person on the committee then I agree with that comment but I would have to venture that the IAD committee is a little bigger than just you, which is why I said that. Yo may have a differing view than the committee, but my comment was addressed at the committee and not you specifically. If it was just you making the decision we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.




> If anyone is interested in getting these rules changed, work with the IAD committee to ammend their rules & charter. Learn why their rules are in the current form and then work proactively with others instead of pissing & moaning in public.


Gee, that's a great idea, why don't we all just get on the committee? Because it doesn't work like that! I think this is a baby ste to working with them to change their rules and charter, but since very few of us sit on the board it not exactly like we have a place to air our concerns other than "piss and moan in public". It really ticks me off when people talk like that. Where do you think changes come from? From a group of people that start up a discussion about something that doesn't make sense to them and it goes uphill from there. It's like the "if you didn't vote for it don't bitch" arguement... garbage, but that is not what this is about. This comes up now rather than before since you asked because people like Marcus Breece apply to vend and basically get shut down. This happens now rather than a few months ago, since you asked, because people are finishing tehir preparations to go and some are just now finding this out. It may have always been the rule, but not until recently have there been this many frogs in this situation that most people would have been exposed to this problem. Aaron's been around a long time and by this thread and his take on it, the INIBICO and Understory rulings were new to him so I hope you are not calling him ignorant since he recently learned of their place in this whole WC/FR arguement...


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I don't know if people realize IAD is run by a group of volunteers. Anyone who has every worked in such an environment knows that decisions are often very sssslllllooooowww...... 

I agree with Scott, I would like to see changes too. But, expecting this organization to work at the speed of private ones is not a realistic expectation. 

I am sure there will be some discussions behind the sceens and hopefully in public to change IAD's & MARs Conservation picture to be wider in scope and more inclusive. 

Melis



Scott said:


> Some people involved (cough, cough) lost their entire evening yesterday to this conversation.
> 
> If you guys think it's easy stuff, feel free to volunteer.
> 
> ...


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Another thing that I feel strongly about is that I think IAD needs to really put alot less emphasis on the whole "sales" part of the event anyways. There needs to be more lectures and presentations and workshops! It almost seems to dumb down what the frog and amphibian community should be caring about. Poeple can get there frogs any day of the week after a few emails or phone calls. How often do you get to hear speakers talk about conservation efforts and leading discoverys ect....... in the amphibian world. I think at times we loose sight. The frogs we are keeping at home mean NOTING in the big picture. Its whats going on the with the status of these frogs in the WILD that is waht really matters. No matter how many pairs of frogs you hve in your house it will not save the Atelopus. Ill tell you I wont feel any better after they are all gone just becuause I still have sme nice pumilio at home. I wouldnt want to give up my frogs for anything. But lets just not loose sight on what really matters the most. And its certinetly not ort frogs at home. 



this really didnt have much to do with the whole cb and wc debate but its something that has been on my mind for a while.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Marcus has vended before. The rules were the same then as they are now. What has changed is the _source_ of the frogs. That's what has really changed in the last few years, how frogs are coming into the country. And that is what we (the IAD Committee) are discussing.

If it didn't take a genius to figure out I'm working on the Committee, it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that you're insulting me (and the rest of the Committee). Now tell me again why I should not start flaming you? You're barely being civil. 

If you would like to participate in this discussion - be civil. Stick to facts. Do not get personal.

s


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Hey Greg,

I agree - but your common hobbyist isn't there for the speakers/workshops. They are there for the frogs.

The people with deeper interests are much more into the speakers and the workshops.

It's a dual edged thing as I'm sure you'll agree.

s


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

melissa68 said:


> Sbreland...
> 
> I don't know where everyone gets this idea there is a conspiracy going on with IAD's committee and vendors. Haven't we all grown up and moved beyond the playground?


I hope this is not an implication on your part that I am immature or acting that way. That would be a terrible mistake on your part to make an ASSumption like that. I understand that change is slow, but this is not government we are talking about and is one of the mostly hotly debated topics right now. It doesn't take a genius to see that this is something that probably needs to be addressed sooner rather than later and issues like that are usually dealt with in short order. Melissa, I don't know if you are on the IAD committee also or not (your comments sound like you are or were), but I think the writing is on the wall that something is not right with this "rule" and it needs to be addressed, which is why we have all written here. I am not a big fish in the frog world, but I do have a pretty damn good sense of what is right and what is wrong and an orginazation that touts conservation as their goal yet bans frogs from projects that are 100% dedicated to conservation seems pretty damn wrong to me. You cansit around and say change takes time, but that is BS. Change happens as fast as one wants it to, and it is apparent that the IAD committee is in no hurry to make any changes or we wouldn't be having this conversation... and that's the end of my point.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

> ...been around a long time and by this thread and his take on it, the INIBICO and Understory rulings were new to him so I hope you are not calling him ignorant since he recently learned of their place in this whole WC/FR arguement...


The FR/WC issue was around last year. I don't see how this is a brand new issue. Rule last year, no imports allowed but offspring were allowed. 

I think you must feel I disagree with Aaron and think he is "ignorant". I think that Aaron is right on regarding this issue. I do not think he is an idiot. In fact, Aaron is very passoniate about this hobby so please do not accuse me of attacking him. 

I think the rules for IAD need to be examined and addressed. His post on conservation and the value added from INIBICO & Understory are not in question. What I am asking, if people, like yourself are so concerned with this subject and it means so much to you. Be part of the solution, instead of blaming a secret conspiracy of IAD committee members and attacking others who are trying to share their opinions.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

sbreland - you have obviously not been invovled in large group dynamics.

*Changes take time.* All I can say is that I really agree with most of what I've read here. But whether these changes can be made within the framework of IAD (and M.A.R.S. - the parent organization of IAD) is questionable.

By the way, your comments to Melis just reinforce what I had said about civil discussions.

s


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Scott said:


> If it didn't take a genius to figure out I'm working on the Committee, it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that you're insulting me (and the rest of the Committee). Now tell me again why I should not start flaming you? You're barely being civil.
> 
> If you would like to participate in this discussion - be civil. Stick to facts. Do not get personal.
> 
> s


If you feel the need to flame me, go ahead... your "words" can't hurt me and you don't scare me honestly. If you think that flaming someone in public forum when they question you is the "civil" way to handle things, then I know who I am dealing with. To me though, that sounds like a personal threat, as you yourself said "If you would like to participate in this discussion - be civil. Stick to facts. Do not get personal." This would be one of those "take your own advice moments". I am insulting no one, just calling a question that is on my mind and probably others too. Your reply of "don't worry about it" just doesn't work for me personally and I doubt it would pass in any debate, so I hardly think you can be surprised that I don't just accept it at your word. Scott, how bout you quit making threats and if you want to continue, PM me about it so you don't detract from the important issue that this thread is addressing.
On another note, I am glad to hear it is being discussed... apparently the "pissing and moaning in public" does turn an ear, despite some peoples opinion.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

> Melissa, I don't know if you are on the IAD committee also or not (your comments sound like you are or were), but I think the writing is on the wall that something is not right with this "rule" and it needs to be addressed, which is why we have all written here.


Actually, you are mistaken. I have never been associated with the IAD committee. Scott and any other person on the committee can confirm this. 

What I have been involved with are a lot of projects with large groups of people. Planning & projects take time. Look how long it took to get these frogs into the country? 

Melis


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

sbreland said:


> On another note, I am glad to hear it is being discussed... apparently the "pissing and moaning in public" does turn an ear, despite some peoples opinion.


My reference to 'pissing and moaning' referred to people suggestion there is a conspiracy going on - or that IAD was not interested in conservation efforts.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I apologize if my comments come across gruff to the two of you, but I do take this seriously or I wouldn't waste my time posting about it. Unfortunately I am not gifted with as much time as many of you are with a 60hr a week job plus full time schooling, a family, and my own frogs. I have no problem contributing in ways that I can but I doubt it's as easy as just throwing out there "hey, I want to be on the IAD board". Changes take people that care, and whether I am on the IAD committee or not does not change that. I once again apologize if Melissa or Scott think these are personal attacks because they are not, but are more me trying to make people think.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Greaser,

This area of IAD seems to come together late every year. We have attended 2 of the last 3 years as vendors and this will be first year as a customer. One of the things I am looking forward to is attending a couple of talks. 

Melis



*GREASER* said:


> Another thing that I feel strongly about is that I think IAD needs to really put alot less emphasis on the whole "sales" part of the event anyways. There needs to be more lectures and presentations and workshops! It almost seems to dumb down what the frog and amphibian community should be caring about. Poeple can get there frogs any day of the week after a few emails or phone calls. How often do you get to hear speakers talk about conservation efforts and leading discoverys ect....... in the amphibian world. I think at times we loose sight. The frogs we are keeping at home mean NOTING in the big picture. Its whats going on the with the status of these frogs in the WILD that is waht really matters. No matter how many pairs of frogs you hve in your house it will not save the Atelopus. Ill tell you I wont feel any better after they are all gone just becuause I still have sme nice pumilio at home. I wouldnt want to give up my frogs for anything. But lets just not loose sight on what really matters the most. And its certinetly not ort frogs at home.
> 
> 
> 
> this really didnt have much to do with the whole cb and wc debate but its something that has been on my mind for a while.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Time?!?

My time is spent on work, family, hobbies and IAD!

You think I have a lot of time for this?

WRONG!

Just be civil would you please? It will get you farther. I'm not sure what the heck you're talking about (me flaming you) as I've been nothing but civil here.

s


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

It seems to me that the rules don't need to change. Captive bred is captive bred, whether it is done in a home in North America or on a farm in Peru or in someones kitchen in Europe. I understand that there are people looking to bend the "rules", but I think all too often that is the first assumption. 

Committees are slow to move, understood, but let's be honest, don't make the situation into more than it is. You've got two clear documented cases, Understory and INIBICO. You've got one not so clear or documented case, Panama. So allow Understory and INIBICO and don't allow Panama. When and if someone bitches about Panama, tell them there is not enough documentation about the pratices etc. Simple, end of story. And yes it is that simple, you're just making it harder than it needs to be.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Relax, this is MY thread, I take the blame and the fall for everyone who is going to hate me for this, not you! Nothing is ever accomplished by shouting and demeaning or demanding no matter who started and what`s at stake!


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

sbreland said:


> I apologize if my comments come across gruff to the two of you, but I do take this seriously or I wouldn't waste my time posting about it. Unfortunately I am not gifted with as much time as many of you are with a 60hr a week job plus full time schooling, a family, and my own frogs. I have no problem contributing in ways that I can but I doubt it's as easy as just throwing out there "hey, I want to be on the IAD board". Changes take people that care, and whether I am on the IAD committee or not does not change that. I once again apologize if Melissa or Scott think these are personal attacks because they are not, but are more me trying to make people think.


I appreciate this post. It is obvious you are passonate about the hobby. It is unfortunate that more people like you can't volunteer to be future members of the IAD committee because I think it would be a better organization. I do not participate on the committee for personal reasons.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You're saying the same thing I am Robb. Trust me.

BUT - while they are CB (true farm raised), they are also Imported. Imported has been equated with WC in the past. Thus the definition(s) seem to be getting in the way of facts.

s


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I think that is what both Scott and I have been saying. I personally think it is too late to get an exception for this year. If this had been brought up earlier (this is no one's fault) it might have been addressed. 

If it doesn't happen this year, I hope it does for next. If it doesn't happen, I think IAD will suffer. Just my opinion, not any facts...



Scott said:


> You're saying the same thing I am Robb. Trust me.
> 
> BUT - while they are CB (true farm raised), they are also Imported. Imported has been equated with WC in the past. Thus the definition(s) seem to be getting in the way of facts.
> 
> s


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You're not the only one that thinks this.

s 


melissa68 said:


> ... If it doesn't happen this year, I hope it does for next. If it doesn't happen, I think IAD will suffer. Just my opinion, not any facts...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

yes but things change and IAD has not kept up. Current policies value w/c smuggled more than any conservation efforts out there.
As I said documentation or not this policy is directly opposed to conservation efforts here at home for what CAN`T be saved by habitat. 2 great organizations w/ conservation only in mind have been formed to list this new at home project as conservation, which includes genetic diversity, which IAD`s rules snuff out. AARK and TWI. How does robb`s site work if we can`t get new bloodlines at IAD to further OUR conservation efforts? They don`t see us as breeders as anything but funding, we can`t get our genetic diversity at IAD because we can`t get anything someone hasn`t already bred. Panama stamps these pumilio w/ their seal of approval. whether being taken from the wild or not they are genetic diversity for breeders like me to keep populations alive. The definition of conservation of a species is?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I guess the bottom line is, yeah things have been done in the past that were bad, understood. Things in the present are CLEARLY different and it just seems so hypocritical to not support these efforts especially in light of the current global conditions. That's the only reason I am spending time on this, you can't say you stand for conservation and then block the current efforts because somebody in the past pulled one over on you. Take a cue from Ron G. and the Global Amphibian Task Force, there isn't much time so you need to learn to react quickly or we all lose.

On completely separate note, since this is getting a lot of views, PDFanatic needs to be exposed on this board for who he really is and booted from the community in general, email me for details.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Aaron,

I think the definition of IMPORT is the issue, not the prohibition of the animals. I am sure part of this entire issue is due to a technicality in their bylaws or something. 

Thankfully, just because these animals are not available at IAD this year doesn't prevent people from purchasing them from vendors directly before or after IAD. 

I don't think IAD is against conservation. 

Melis


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

What was that Robb, a little rider on the bill. :lol: 
Alright I was going to wait till later tonite to post this but now seems to be the time before they decide.
For the life of the hobby the rarest has been worth the most. This does nothing but fuel underhanded deals and works toward the extinction of these frogs. Profit drives you to be the only one breeding said species. I am biased as I have never had the chance to get the rare. This definately gives me contempt for that part of the hobby by personal experience. I am very biased on this point! I am also very impressed w/ the quality of the frogs now as opposed to what was coming in 10-12 years ago. I finally got the chance to get something fragile and rare(escudos) and I did and I`m floored w/ the quality. 10 years ago the animals living or dieing was decided way before your purchase as to how it was brought in. It was not conservation oriented in the least. no treating them for parasites or even doing fecals. There are finally strides being made to provide clean well cared for wc or fr animals. there is progress being made and we should support that. 
I don`t know what the reason is behind these rules. I see people being paranoid over verification of farm raised, cb w/c whatever. Aren`t there institutions that stamp these individuals shipments a seal of approval? Are we saying these projects are not legit. The govt`s are corrupt? Or is this just another ploy to keep the people on the top on the top just like we see so often in all our gov`t policies?
Because right now I`m disgusted w/ teh hobby. People posting clutches of 40 eggs which keeps everybody from buying from these efforts. People are in the " I`ll get it cheaper if I wait a couple months and buy it from a board member" While genetic diversity sits at the table till there are no more shipments because they`ve gone broke. People here buy 1 or 2 pairs and get eggs BECAUSE MARK and MARCUS IS GROWING THEM UP AND MAKING SURE THEY ARE CLEAN AND READY TO BREED. If your getting success and making a living off the pairs you got you didn`t do it yourself, your relying on the people who know what they`re doing to grow up frogs for you that start breeding w/in a week of arrival!
How is this conservation oriented if you rely on someone who knows what they are doing, they get used up and get out and the people left are people who only know how to work w/ clean, healthy frogs. 
It was never this easy and it`s because of these projects, EVEN FARM RAISING AND BEING TREATED ON ARRIVAL IS MORE CONSERVATION ORIENTED THAN THE PAST AND SHOULD BE GIVEN A MEDAL FOR THEIR STRIDES!


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`m very sorry for calling it like I see it. I am VERY biased, you make your own decision. I have been blocked for years trying to get rare frogs. why do you think I just got my first pair of grannies, rich. Why do I have all these pumilio, SNDF. No other reasons, none of the hobbiests, guru`s or whatever, they have blocked my conservation efforts since I`ve started. I think it is a conspiracy, not by Scott but probably one person who is fighting this the most, maybe someone you wouldn`t expect, who knows. I don`t know who is on IAD and MARS comittee but give me a list and I may be able to pick him or her out.
Do I need to go into the Michael Ruekoff Story?
These smuggled animals are getting to the IAD tables so it`s not getting done right w/ the rules in place.
I`ve been ridden w/ anxiety because very few people want me here in this hobby. I`ve about had enough, Ive done all I can all my life for this I`ve had my head down breeding as many of these guys as I can to make sure they don`t dissappear, I found that wasn`t doing good for the hobby and i changed.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Ok, I was with you up until that last post... and then you lost me...


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## dartfrogs (May 26, 2004)

Hey Robb,

You actually make a very good point. The face of conservation has changed dramatically in just the last few years causing everyone to have to reconisider their ideas of what is right and what is wrong. I will say that I know everyone involved does have the best interest of the animals in mind when trying to control their sales at this event. I do not necessarily agree with how it is done and hope things will be improved soon. One thing that I do see as a problem is that captive bred is being defined as US bred in this situation. Imported does not necessarily mean illegal. That is an antiquated idea and one that needs to simply change. Personally, I do not see what the delay, discussion, assessment, looking at the pros and cons, etc... etc... etc... would need to be in order to change the rules allowing support of these conservation programs. This is the exact type of beurocracy that AARC was dealing with concerning other conservation organizations. They wanted to do studies, research, gather data, discuss it some more, before considering supporting the program. In the mean time, populations and species were going extinct in a matter of months. (Yes, Months) It can take some organizations that long just to plan a meeting! We do not have the luxury of time any longer. Documentation is a simple method of determining legality in my opinion. Panama has never had the same level of openness that either of the other organizations provide. 
I also agree with Greg in that greater emphasis needs to be placed on the conservation portion of this conference and less on the SALES. Obviously, we do sell quite a bit there but also donate as much as we can for the auction (which most people don't even stay for). It is disappointing to see some vendors packing up early because they have 'sold out' or especially because they were not doing well. If a sale is all you are looking for than save it for MARS or another venue. I rarely hear people talking about anxiously awaiting this presentation or that one. Instead I hear a lot of talk regarding splitting tables, how much they can get for their tincs or leucs and setting up deals in their rooms so they don't have to pay for a table. None of this is really helping the cause. 

Richard
Black Jungle


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

EXACTLY!

s


dartfrogs said:


> ... One thing that I do see as a problem is that captive bred is being defined as US bred in this situation. Imported does not necessarily mean illegal. That is an antiquated idea and one that needs to simply change...


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## Android1313 (Dec 15, 2006)

^Me too :?



> Ok, I was with you up until that last post... and then you lost me...


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Has anyone thought of composing a petition and passing it around? I wonder if that would help getting things changed and updated with IAD's rules?

I wonder how many signatures we could get? 

Melissa



Scott said:


> EXACTLY!
> 
> s
> 
> ...


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Aaron, 

As I read this thread, I was 100% behind you ... until you said this:



frogfarm said:


> If I`m going to get blacklisted by people who can`t breed the frogs I`m takin everyone down w/ me. I`m calling it like it is. I have tried all I can to do all I can and I`m just about at the end. If I can`t save them I`ll take down every person making a living off this that has blocked me all these years.


In my opinion, you just flushed your whole argument and possibly your reputation down the toilet. These statements now lead me to believe that it's a personal issue and not about the conservation at all.

If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me but, I don't see where temper tantrums and threats against people who wouldn't sell you frogs has anything to do with conservation or IAD.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Hey Richard,

Glad to see you chime in on this. And let me say again that my comments about vendors in a previous post was not to slam anyone and say that no vendors contribute to conservation, we all do by paying for tables and participating, but to make the point that Understory and INIBICO by comparison do a lot more than most who vend. Certainly they do more than my contributions and efforts and therefore if I had the choice between me and them, I would choose them. I guess lucky for me it's not up to me right? Can I be any more self deprecating to get my point across 

I think you are spot on that they are being restrictive in their use and/or definition of "imported" and "captive bred" and in doing so are shooting themselves and their conservation efforts in the foot.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> It seems to me that the rules don't need to change. Captive bred is captive bred, whether it is done in a home in North America or on a farm in Peru or in someones kitchen in Europe. I understand that there are people looking to bend the "rules", but I think all too often that is the first assumption.
> 
> Committees are slow to move, understood, but let's be honest, don't make the situation into more than it is. You've got two clear documented cases, Understory and INIBICO. You've got one not so clear or documented case, Panama. So allow Understory and INIBICO and don't allow Panama. When and if someone bitches about Panama, tell them there is not enough documentation about the pratices etc. Simple, end of story. And yes it is that simple, you're just making it harder than it needs to be.


One of the more lucid points I have ever seen posted on this board and I agree 100%.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

the way i see it is that the powers that be are blocking attempts to make this all a level playing field by allowing good frogs into the hobby not being already bred by others.
I got emotional and it`s hard for me to state things clearly. I only mean that if it`s the powers that be holding this back for personal gain, I`m against it and everyone should know that.
I do get emotional and the other breeders issue should not be brought in but it is part of the bigger problem.
I`m going to erase it. Your right it has no place in this issue.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I don't think conspiracy theories have anything to do with this issue. If they do, please post your proof - instead of just making accusations & generalizations. 


frogfarm said:


> the way i see it is that the powers that be are blocking attempts to make this all a level playing field by allowing good frogs into the hobby not being already bred by others.


Like Richard, Mark, Robb, Scott and others have said, changes need to occur. I do not doubt these changes will occur, but will they be sooner or later? Is there anything we can do to make it sooner?

Melis


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Proof? I`m not in on their meetings. 
Why else would there be an issue? Doesn`t everyone here agree that cb from Europeon shipments will be 90% of the frogs available if these 2 orgs aren`t let in. there was never a thought of conservation w/ thise shipments, only I want this. Why would a conservation organization want to do that? Why would they block the only conservation oriented frogs. Are we conserving peoples homes and upgrades? MOre money is spent by each person there on hotel rooms than a table and admission. MOre money is spent at the tables than towrd conservation. A $350 frog sells off my table and I don`t have to give any more than my table to conservation efforts. Are we conserving the hotels? What`s being conserved? The already popular breeders lifestyle? MY lifestyle?
Maybe I`m missing it but the clock is ticking. If it doesn`t get solved it can be let lie and be forgotton. I just don`t see anything other than 1 person there blocking it. I could be wrong, this is why we debate. Do you have any proof it is not? Even an explanation as to why this would be such a big issue. it should be "oh, ya. I guess your right, never noticed that as things were changing".


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Change must be done in a very calculated method, trying to understand future questions and circumstances must be considered in this process so that future exploitation does not become an option. I agree that with many species time is running out and if there is an opportunity to fast track well documented and regulated conservations efforts such as Understory and INIBICO it should be given the highest priority.
These 2 groups have done as much for conservation in the last couple of years as i had seen in the previous 15 or so combined. I would certainly hope that efforts like this can be singled out and allowed access to an event that stands for what in fact they are living and doing on a daily basis.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

> Why else would there be an issue? Doesn`t everyone here agree that cb from Europeon shipments will be 90% of the frogs available if these 2 orgs aren`t let in.


Aaron,

So, you answered my question, you have no proof! 

Since you have no proof, I hope you stop making accusations regarding why IAD allows some frogs and not others. The reality under which the rules governing IAD, MARS and their agreement were made under different circumstances than exist today. 

We all have agreed that the hobby is changing the rules regarding imports need to change! Again, I do not think this is a conspiracy theory, just then inaction of a volunteer organization. Reading any more into it is just going to make you mad. 

So, again, ask yourself - what can I do to change the rules this year? If we can not change them this year - what can we do for next year. 

Melissa


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I do not know who the 1 person who is blocking this issue is. 

My guess, it is just a volunteer organization that is resistant to change. With more and more frog events every year, they are going to be faced with the realization that if they don't change and embrace this new class of imports they might not be an organization or event that is around in the future.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Here's the bigger question... with everyone on the same side (or at least everyone who has responded to this thread, including an IAD committee member in Scott), what or who is holding up the change? Like Richard said, this is a fragile time that cannot be taken lightly and sitting around on our ass waiting for a slow change doesn't seem to liek a very good idea and doesn't seem to be what anyone wants. You have some of the biggest names in the hobby (Richard, Robb, Aaron, etc) and some of the smallest names (me and ... well I;m sure there are more :lol: ) representing the spectrum of frog keepers saying they want it changed. What is holding it up and how do we address this person or persons so that this isn't one of those Congressional acts of God that take 2-4 years to pass? For all those that are preaching to shut up and do something, WHAT DO WE AS A HOBBY HAVE TO DO TO MAKE THEM LISTEN????


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

While I don't really give a darn one way or the other, I thought up a point that could be raised in favor of the rules as-is.

If only CB within the US animals are allowed for sale, than that encourages (in its own tiny way) people to purchase these imported animals with the intent to breed them (and thus have offspring to sell), rather than with the intent to re-sell them. Only limited numbers of the INIBICO and Understory frogs are coming in, and economic incentives to encourage their being bred rather than speculated on would help establish them better in the hobby.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

From my relative noobie position, I'll add some comments in the interest and hope of forming a consensus for change. FYI, I too have served and continue to serve on many large, volunteer based committees. It can be extremely frustrating at times due to the high degree of conservatism. It's the dreaded "paralysis by anaylsis" disease, and general fear of change and blame. 

Anyway...

IMO, Imported CB and/or true FR animals, that are strongly traceable back to the Understory and INIBICO efforts, should NOT be excluded from the IAD event. Further, I would hope and expect to see at IAD, tables and/or displays from these well organized and proven conservation efforts, specifically setup to inform and garner support for their work. Nothing could be closer and more supportive of the apparent and stated IAD mission. Heck, they probably should be given a free table or two!!

and...

Aaron should go and be able to bring his CB frogs and froglets.

EricG.NH


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

That`s the problem, most don`t give a darn either way.  
I am able to attend(or at least I was before this thread), I choose to impose standards on myself which make me lie below understory. They did more conservation than I could have ever, my frogs are less worthy of conservation efforts than they. If their`s arent allowed, mine aren`t worthy. The only reason I do this is to see projects such as understory and INIBICO succeed. If they don`t succeed I have no reason to do this and I have no hope for the hobby.
Now my animals are suffering because of this. i`ve spent too much time on this and have to get back to work.
I just hope the right decision is made in time.


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## dartfrogs (May 26, 2004)

Hi Clayton,

While I can see your point there are a few things I think you may not be aware of. First, these frogs (at least the M. Pepper ones), are not really available wholesale so the only ones actually re-selling them are selling them FOR Mark, thus helping to provide funding for his project. Second, these venues provide the opportunity for hobbyists to get the animals to begin breeding them in the first place. Not everyone has the capability to import, nor the desire to risk shipping them, so getting them from a show is very convenient and safe. One of the main benefits of getting these legal frogs out into as many hands as possible is to reduce the demand for the smuggled ones as much as possible. This is an effort that I think should be assisted whenever we can. 

Regarding the changing of policy at IAD, I really don't understand why there needs to be such a long, drawn out process. We are not dealing with a government regulated, federally subsidized agency. We are dealing with a group of dedicated people working together toward a common goal. They make the rules, they enforce the rules. Choosing to support these new programs is not a matter of playing favorites. It is a matter of embracing efforts that help conservation and choosing to exclude those programs that do not provide the data to support their supposedly legal activities.

Richard


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It's really not just one person. That's all I'm going to say. I'm sure many think I've said too much already.

I do give a sh!t folks. I just don't know if it's going to matter that I do.

s


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

oh, it`s one that`s leading it, it always is one that draws the rest in thru his "view". whether it comes down to liability or bastardizing the original concept there are always 2 arguments and they will always try and use the wrong one to their advantage. All just my opinion but your painting a bad pic of them all.
I`m sorry people I tried and I`m glad I brought this whole thing out in the open no matter how much it`s damaged me or what good times I`m going to miss there or the profits made or the help I could do for conservation. I`m very picky about who I help. I think about this too much to just support any ole organization, i support what I believe can make a difference. There isn`t enough time to go supporting every cause, you have to make an informed decision on what matters. The fact that no one came here but you Scott(thank you for taking the heat for them) to explain any of this or try and sort anything out proves my point. I still have to believe they all aren`t bad and it`s one person doing most of the work though.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Well, my guess would be that Scott is the only one involved who would come across this discussion let alone be a member of dendroboard.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

My only curiousity now is, why so much secrecy about who is involved in these decisions? Jesus, you would think this is a damn governmental agency or something! I would love to know who is involved in this committee and why there appears to be so much secrecy as to it's members. If we knew who to talk to it would be much easier to, as Melissa put it, do something about it rather than just talking about it. Scott, I do appreciate you addressing the situation apparently as a representative for the whole, but my read of you is that you favor this arguement but the rest of the whole does not. Why can't they address this along with you? Like Robb said, I suspect that very few if any of the people we are talking about follow or are part of DB or they most likely would participate. The only thing I would hope of you Scott is that you would bring this thread to their attention so they can see what the concensus of the hobby, from very experienced and respected down to me, feel. Maybe then the mysterious "they" would be able to see which direction the hobby and it's members wat to go.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Scott's the only one dumb enough to talk. Honesty is a good policy.

So is flexibility. Times change. Conditions change. Import is not a dirty word for "Wild Caught" anymore. That's what it's being being played as still.

I've decided to have surgery on my ankle. I had wanted to put it off till after IAD but I see no reason to.

s


rmelancon said:


> Well, my guess would be that Scott is the only one involved who would come across this discussion let alone be a member of dendroboard.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Scott aka Baldy - we will miss you at IAD!


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

I'm been following this thread and it seems to me that what we need to do is contact the IAD committee directly (not just Scott).

So, here's the contact information for IAD as found on their website. There isn't a list of the committee members. But, if you want your voice heard I'd suggest contacting the committee via email, phone or fax. I'd think snail mail would be too slow to make a difference this year assuming a difference can be made at this point at all. There is a phone number and fax number on the website. 

http://www.intlamphibday.org/

Email: [email protected]


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Well let's see if I can summarize. Much indignation aimed at nameless, faceless forces controlling IAD and their policies. Scott taking the heat for same and trying to present a balanced perspective. Several others trying to calm the waters. 

Aaron opts out of IAD, Scott opts out of IAD and policy unlikely to change in near term. Are we all happy now? Somehow I wonder. 

Personally I think the current policy as interpreted is too restrictive and not embracing recent conservation efforts by INIBICO and Understory. However, I strongly doubt if lambasting the IAD committee repeatedly for their policy is going to be conducive to encouraging them to change the aforementioned. More likely it will harden attititudes, at least in the short term. Threats (and I'm using the term broadly here) rarely induce positive behavior in humans, at least in my experience. 

Sarah's suggestion is perhaps the most constructive of the thread and perhaps those who have strong feelings will direct their energies along those lines. In way of encouraging the use of diplomacy as opposed to heated polemics, I enclose a suggested letter.

----------------------------
*Dear IAD committee members,

It has come to my attention that the current policies of IAD would prohibit the display and sale of animals produced by the INIBICO and Understory Enterprises efforts. Presumably this is due to the fact that those animals have been imported from another country and their imported status presents a dilemma vis-a-vis the 'captive bred animals' only policy. Nevertheless, given the importance that IAD places on conservation efforts and the stellar track record that INIBICO and Understory represent in both preserving native habitat and expanding genetic diversity of captive frog populations in the hobby, I strongly encourage you to allow their inclusion at the 2007 IAD meeting. This action, while perhaps uncomfortable given the status quo, makes a bold statement about the conservation stance of the committee and the frog community in general. Thank you for your consideration. 

Sincerely,*
---------------------------------------------- 

Just my thoughts folks. I understand the passion but also know that appealing to one's ideals tends to yield better results than berating them for their failures.

Bill

P.S. Kudos to Scott for his brave (yes I mean it) posts in this thread. A lonely stance and one made worse by the fact that he agrees with the issue raised but also sees the complexities. I for one hope that he changes his mind about attending IAD.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Keep in mind that those who are on the committee on this board may also be keeping quiet to bolster the positions they are taking with respect to discussion on this issue..this way they can avoid accusations of seeking public attention or support as opposed to getting consensus on the questions involved. 

Ed


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## dartfrogs (May 26, 2004)

Hi Ed,

I can see that perspective but what confuses me is that this is not a political issue. Why would anyone on the board feel that they would need to keep their opinion to themselves. Personally, I think this may be one of the problems. If there are concerns regarding this issue I think it would be a good idea to bring them up so they can be addressed. I can't think of any reason not to. It's all about conservation so where is the problem? 
When I think of all of the work that has gone into bringing these projects to fruition I am amazed that we have not heard from the people more personally involved. When you think about the many, many years Shulte has spent down in Peru, and all of the time and effort Sean Stewart has put into finally being able to offer these frogs, it only makes sense that they would want to be able to offer these frogs to the public. Heck, Sean is on the board isn't he? If a board member being involved in a conservaton project is not enough to convince the rest of them what would it take? I just think it is sad that all of this work has gone into these programs and the one venue that claims to represent conservation and support responsible amphibian ownership is actually having a debate on this issue. 
It really does not make sense. Is the problem actually about conservation or what? I think I must be missing something as the issue is quite cut and dry. I believe any 'complications' are simply imagined. Everyone here has offered their perspective and I, for one, would like to hear from the decision makers themselves. Perhaps there is some other aspect I am not considering but since we are all working toward the same goal I don't see why there should be any reason for keeping your position 'quiet'.

Richard


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

Thanks to everyone who responded in support. I was surprised to learn that our frogs would not be allowed. For many of the same reasons previously stated by others, I was surprised that offspring which were captive bred in Canada would not be allowed. We had a nice shipment ready for SNDF.

I would like to discuss further conservation and our future role in it, since our success in conservation efforts are contingent on our ability to sell frogs etc. 

First conservation is a battle. Idealistic approaches to conservation will not and are not working. We need proactive, aggressive approaches. We are losing forests, and we are losing frogs, and we will lose more. Conservation needs money. Its not enough to buy land in Latin America and pat yourself on the back if you do nothing to protect it after the sale. The social climate is different in Peru, and there are few prosecutions for illegal timbering, illegal hunting etc. You might as well toss a coin in the amazon river and make a wish, the results will be the same, you have lost your money and your forest will be gone. 

To protect forest you need to establish a presence in that territory, guardians to watch and protect the forest, and you need to develop cooperative and trusting relations with local peoples, and find ways to engage them in seeing the value of the forest as a living entity, not just in terms of board feet, or bushmeat, otherwise the trees will eventually go. These are difficult challenges, and there are no easy solutions. The most successful reserves often have the best guards and management team. You need money to do this, because people don’t work for free, and to find good people for the job they have to be paid fairly. But it can work, it takes initial investment and subsequent and continued reinvestment. Conservation is expensive. If I invest 10000$ in a large plot of land, I will need several thousand dollars every year after to make sure my grandkids will be able to enjoy it some day. There are tanto pressures on the land and the forests, that it will disappear if not actively protected. One only needs to look at the illegal logging in Pacaya Samiria to see that declaring a preserve, while beneficial, and a step in the right direction, will not prevent resource exploitation in the absence of the necessary resources to control, police and protect it. Unfortunately in Peru, fiscal budgets do not place an importance on such things, and there is insufficient funding to police such practices, and the most well intentioned efforts fall short for one reason, money. It’s the reality of the world. Without money you are paralyzed and good intentions go nowhere.

Manuel and I have dedicated the last 4 years of our lives and have invested every cent we own into the zoocriadero, which we intend to use as a vehicle to commence and expand conservation and sustainable production programs in Peru, not just including frogs. What we have done is shadow of what we hope to accomplish in the coming years, and what we are working towards. It takes time, and it takes hard work, but we are getting results. Going to Peru and meeting Manuel has quite literally changed my life. I love Peru, to me it’s the most remarkable place on the planet, and I would and will do whatever is in my ability to do to save some of it, as will Manuel....and it’s frustrating work. Neither Manuel nor I like to talk about what we are doing until results are realized, but in acknowledgment of the dendroboard community “going to bat” for us here we feel we owe you a look towards the future of our efforts in Peru.

In Feb 2007 we submitted to INRENA la Propuesta Tecnica for a Concesion de Conservacion on behalf of Understory Explorer SAC. The proposal itself and meeting requirements, surveying areas, mapping etc, was a cumbersome and expensive process. But we feel well worth it. The area to be ceded will be substantial, some 7148 hectares in the lower Hualluga, in the transitional zone where the Escalera Mountains give way to the lowlands. It is in an area of incredible diversity and within the concession are 13 different forest types. I don’t have time to get into the diversity of the area, suffice to say it’s staggering. Relevant to poison frog enthusiasts we feel this is the most dendrobatid diverse area on the planet. We have documented 8 species, and believe a further 4 will be confirmed once we have time to investigate further in upland areas. Included in these are the amazing reticulated fantasticus, and the curious pongoensis. We hope this is an effort the entire poison frog community will stand behind. This will represent a new challenge for us, and a huge financial commitment, one that we are 100% + dedicated to working towards. There are so many possibilities and so much that can be accomplished if we are allowed the opportunity and time to do so. To do this we need the support of the frog community and other nature enthusiasts, and the ability to sell our frogs and other sustainable harvested/produced rainforest products. Again, I don’t have time to go further into it, but please be assured that the wheels are in motion for many things. I hope to have more info online regarding this in an expedient manner through our website.

Again, we are doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in Peru, and in Canada and we have results we are proud of, though of which we are not yet satisfied, and we will never be satisfied, there is too much that needs to be done... We will keep going as long as we are able to, and as long as we have support of communities such as Dendroboard. And since we are both young hopefully that will be for years to come.

Again a huge thanks to all those showing their support and to Scott for his efforts and time attempting to rectify the situation.

And finally, for anyone who has followed this far, please attend IAD, politics, definitions aside, I hope this controversy doesn’t deter anyone from attending or vending at IAD. Any event supporting the frogs, and conservation is worthy of support.
Mark


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## dartfrogs (May 26, 2004)

Hi Mark,

It is great to hear from you and I really appreciate the work that you and your team are doing down there. I am disappointed that we have not been able to make it down as of yet but hope to change that soon. I think the dedication your team has displayed as well as the efforts put forth by other people working in similar situations should really speak for itself. It is for this very reason that I am truly baffled by the controversy surrounding this issue. I know the people involved with IAD are commited to their goals as well which makes it even more difficult to understand. I hope the decision is finally made to allow your frogs (and the others as well) to be made available to help support your continued efforts.

Richard


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

After quickly reading the posts regarding this, I would have to side with SNDF and Aaron. I feel many in the hobby embrace the efforts by INIBICO, Sean, Ron, and the folks at Understory. It would seem in the best interest of the hobby and conservation for the IAD Board to adjust their requirements as much has changed in the last year. Just my 2 cents. Maybe a poll would emphasize this need for a change?

Jon Werner


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I am just getting caught up as well after some very busy days.

I have to agree with many of the comments here and have attempted to relay this and my overall concerns to the IAD committee.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Mark,

Thanks for posting and thanks for your efforts.

Bill,

Great idea, lets get the letter on a webpage or maybe an email where we can all "digitally" sign it and send to the committee. I say webpage or email as this would be most expedient but suggestions are welcomed. Time is obviously critical at this point so to get started I suggest copying your letter into an email, sign it and forward to me, then I will forward to others, then after we get say 75 signatures (too much, too little?) someone sends it back to you or I and then we forward to IAD. What do you think? [email protected]


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Just a note, and I can not remember after reading for the last 4 hours, but I think the question is the requirements of MARS behind IAD. So this may not be as easy as just getting the IAD requirements changed. This may not completely be the case but sounds like it may be related.

There may be more to this than meets the eye.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Robb,

You have mail 

Bill


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

Melis and I have already expressed our concerns to the IAD commitee via email. We would be happy to sign a petition as well..... But, what would be more effective. One email with 75 signatures or 75 emails. hmmmm..... What would be harder to ignore?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Well, the emailing has begun... having never done this I'm not quite sure how it will work... I started numbering but realize that it's not exactly going to go in sequence and will probably have to be manually pasted together from a bunch of separate emails anyway. We'll see how this works...


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I'd be happy to sign if anyone thinks the little guys opinion matters


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## SNDF (Mar 23, 2006)

Hopefully all this time, effort and support people have put into this discussion will help to change the decision made by the IAD committee. 

After the IAD board member told us that we would not be allowed to sell Mark Peppers imported Peruvian frogs at our table, we decided to contact them again on Monday the 26th by e-mail regarding the IAD board members list to contact one by one each of them and to request their opinion on this subject to make sure this decision was made by the total members and not by a single individual. Beth, the person who is in charge of answering the phone and e-mails answered us back saying “I am going to post this to the board and get them to all come in on this topic. I will get back to you ASAP”. She did not give us the board members list to contact them directly.

Now it is early in the morning of the 28th and not an E-mail or phone call has come back this way. Why so much time to respond? We don’t really understand this.

On the IAD rules #1 state, “no other animals from outside the U.S. (unless sufficient proof is supplied and approved before the show)”. 
What proof can we give them after we contacted them the first time and they immediately said “NO, you can not sell those frogs at IAD”. This answer did not open the possibility to offer any proof that these frogs being brought into the U.S. were 100% captive bred and in the best effort to contribute to the conservation of these frogs.

How is it possible to think that we can wait one year for them to make their decision for the next IAD. So many people including hobbyist, breeders and distributors agree with being able to sell these frogs at the 2007 IAD show.

Hopefully this information will help clarify that we also have been attempting to get the IAD committee to allow these frogs into the show. We like everyone else are waiting for their response.

Marcus & Valentina 
Simply Natural Dart Frogs


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

sbreland said:


> I'd be happy to sign if anyone thinks the little guys opinion matters


I'm with Stace. If a little guy can make a difference, pass it my way. myers.839 osu edu


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Marcus, 
I am sure your post will draw the remark "It takes time", but you have obviously gone one step farther than what we have talked about here and already made the effort. I find it hard to understand how justifications can be made why the IAD committee membership is such a secret. Who are they protecting and why?? I know some have rebuked the idea of a conspiracy and maybe there isn't anything that deep, but why is it that the IAD membership wants themselves to be kept secret? I don't get it and actions like these only serve to fuel the fire that this has become and have and will continue to make the changes that we all apparently want to make impossible.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

The majority of IAD Committee membership are not members here. It's not necessarily a matter of "secrecy" so much as not being in touch with the hobbyist. There really are only a few of us who are both.

The MARS "rules" on this are vague as well. I've asked for a review of them. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Marcus - I think the communications inwards has been a bit intense and not necessarily reached a conclusion and therefore the communications outwards has not been forthcoming. Sorry about that.

s


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## dartfrogs (May 26, 2004)

Hi Scott,

Perhaps 'Secrecy' is not the best word to use here, but I am again confused about another point. Dendroboard must represent the largest online community of those people passionately devoted to poison dart frogs and other amphibians. Using logic, this group would also then represent one of the greatest resources of individuals when it comes to promoting and supporting conservation efforts and plans. It is for that reason that I would think the IAD board would greatly benefit from interacting with the group to at least discuss what their concerns are in regard to making these changes. 
Obviously, there is a reason that there is disagreement among the board members over this issue or it would not be an issue. The fact that they will not bring this public suggests to me that either they feel it is above us and we 'wouldn't get it" or that there might be some other agenda. I hate to sound as though I am suggesting a 'conspiracy' as that is not what I am saying. I just feel that this is an issue that concerns a lot more than just the board members and by them not communicating their concerns it only raises speculation. A lot of people attend IAD each year, many vendors support it via table rentals, providing workshops and through donations as well. This closed door policy does tend to leave a bad taste in one's mouth after such an extended level of support. 
I still say that debate over this issue simply does not make sense and I wish someone form the board would show all of us enough respect to at least shed some light on what the sticking points are. Like I said before, there may be something that we are all missing here but not knowing what it is will only serve to fuel the fires that have obviously been lit.

Richard


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

-- I post this with no comment --

IAD 2007

SHOW RULES 

These rules have been written by the board of trustees of the MARS Preservation Fund, Inc. with assistance from breeders and vendors, the general public, local, state and federal agencies to ensure that the goals of the show are met. These rules are enforced for the benefit of the breeders and other vendors, the well being of the animals, and in compliance with the local, state and federal laws. International Amphibian Day is a show with strict rules. We strive to set good standards for our amphibian shows and the amphibian industry. Animals for sale must be captive bred and healthy. It is everyone's responsibility to protect the well being of all the animals in our care. Vendors selling food items will be allowed to sell only those that are used for feeding amphibians.

1. Healthy captive born amphibians ONLY. For more clarification:

No wild caught animals. No long term captive wild caught animals. No other animals from outside the U.S. (unless sufficient proof is supplied and approved before show time). No unhealthy animals. No other animals will be sold (Except those for amphibian food). No promotion of wild caught amphibian shows.

An inspection by qualified professionals and other vendors will be conducted before and during the show. Please take the healthy captive bred rule very seriously, it will be enforced If you have an

unusual animal or a first time breeding – the burden of proof is on you (photographs at birth, of mating, of parents, bill of sale, etc.). If you have a questionable animal that you cannot provide adequate proof of its captive breeding - don't bring it to the show! If you have an unhealthy animal – don’t bring it to the show! The IAD staff and MARS insist on maintaining a reputation for offering only the highest quality healthy animals.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Richard & Marcus - I do hope this situation will be resolved before IAD. 

If we look at natural selection, organisims that do not adapt and change become extinct. Those that adapt to changes prosper. I think the same can be said for organizations. 

Things need to change. I am not suggesting a Coup d'état or anything like it, but maybe it is time for new leadership & membership within the IAD committee.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

We've been doing this also. New blood.

s


melissa68 said:


> ... Things need to change. I am not suggesting a Coup d'état or anything like it, but maybe it is time for new leadership & membership within the IAD committee.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

So again I say, seems the rules don't need to change we (someone) needs to supply photos and other "proof" that the Understory and/or Inibico animals are CB. Aaron just needs to show photos of his escudos, tads, transporting, etc. I would think this can be done fairly easily without giving away "trade secrets", etc. And if at that point they still say they won't allow them, then there is something going on between an IAD committee member and Understory and/or INIBICO.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

The "rules" can be interpreted so many ways Robb.

But I agree with you. It's all in how you want to spin the definitions.

s


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I suppose but let's be honest, they say they need proof or "the burden of proof is on you". There is plenty of information and proof out there on both these organizations, just go to their websites. Maybe it has not been presented formally, I don't know the particulars. It's just sounding more and more like someone has a personal issue with one of these organizations or perhaps is tied into one and not the other. I hate to speculate but here we have the document in front of us that spells it out quite clearly, you can sell if you have "proof". What more proof do you need from these two organizations? Again, it isn't a difficult decision unless there is some internal conflict within the three parties. If that's the case, then things are worse than any of us have imagined.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Robb - Let's just hope it isn't the worst case scenerio - I would hate to see the fallout if we are wrong.

Melis


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## dartfrogs (May 26, 2004)

Hi Robb,

I, too, would hate to think that the 'internal conflict' scenario is actually the case but it also seems to be the only one that finally makes sense out of this whole situation. With silence from the board who knows what to think? It's for this very reason that I think non-communication is so very damaging to the IAD community.

Richard


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

If all they are saying is that they need "proof" then bring all these questionable frogs anyways with printed out pages of all the documentation we have been talking about. Then if they do try and make an issue out of it you can present to them all the documents on these frogs and the legitimacy of the breeding operation. At that point they would have to publicly make a statement on why these frogs did not comply with the IAD standards.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

At this point it doesn't seem to be an issue of not having the proof needed or even missing some part of the charter that these animals don't fit. Basically as Richard, Robb, Greg, Marcus, Aaron, etc, etc, have shown how and why these frogs fit the definition as it is written, which means that there should not be an issue of having to "get permission" to bring these because they fit. What becomes the question is if someone brings them are they going to get shut down? If they do, then I have to fall in line and believe that there is something larger than a simple rule like many have suggested. Basically, these forgs fit the rule and if someone stops them from being there then there better be some documentable reason why or else it will be apparent that there is some kind of subversive attempt to oppose the INIBICO and Understory projects.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Subversive! Conspiracy!

It's none of the above as far as I'm concerned.

Some people are more conservative in how they define an Imported frog than others. By definition... in 1999 (or whenever IAD first kicked off, I don't even know right now), an Imported frog was fairly much a WILD CAUGHT frog!

The definition hasn't caught up with the times. I'd like to see it caught up - and RIGHT NOW! As others have noted - getting a group to move is not the easiest thing to do. 

So please give the Subversive! Conspiracy! talk a rest.

Thank you.

s


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The word "import" does not appear in the rules you posted. How can there be a conflict of definition when said word isn't being used?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Good point Mike. 

"... No wild caught animals ..." is what I was referring to.

Now - you guys don't have to convince me that's not what we're dealing with. But I tell you again it's not a "conspiracy" thing we're dealing with.

The effort moves on - I promise you that.

s


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

see highlighted text - although it doesn't mention 'imports' frogs from outside the US tend to be imports.

The next part is really interesting, isn't everyone able to supply proof for the captives (US born animals at least)?



Scott said:


> -- I post this with no comment --
> 
> IAD 2007
> 
> ...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Thanks again Melis. You're hired. 

s


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Where were you over the last year - when I needed a job??? lol


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

melissa68 said:


> Where were you over the last year - when I needed a job??? lol


I doubt you'd like the pay...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "about here and already made the effort. I find it hard to understand how justifications can be made why the IAD committee membership is such a secret. Who are they protecting and why??"endsnip


when you have a committee dealing with a contentious subject that has a wave of support (for or against it doesn't matter) and the members and their positions become public knowledge then they are subject to pressure not only from the group but individuals.. In this day and age, it is very easy to track down people and harass them with phone calls in the middle of the night, hate mail, spam their e-mail accounts and exert other forms of pressure on them or thier families.... 
All of the members of the IAD committee are volunteers who do this in thier spare time and have full time occupations so its not like they can sit down and hash it out in a few hours as not everyone can be on-line at the same time. 
At this time, I have been a shop steward for a number of years and have been through several contract negotations and the pressure put on us every three years to divulge details in enormous... think about what a group of hundreds of people could do if they didn't like your position ....whether it was right or wrong... 
And with any contentious subject, working out a resolution acceptable to the committee takes time and effort. 
So at this moment I would counsel patience as it is working through the process. 

Ed


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## dartfrogs (May 26, 2004)

No Ed!

Burn the Witches!!!!
Burn the Witches!!!!
Burn the Witches!!!!
Burn the Witches!!!!
Burn the Witches!!!!


Sorry, just thought it was about time for a laugh! ;-)

Richard


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You could ask him about workshops.

s 


dartfrogs said:


> ... Sorry, just thought it was about time for a laugh! ;-)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I did laugh.

The problem is that times change and wording applications change or become outdated. 
Whenever you have several people that read broadly written language, there are bound to be interpretational differences which have to be hashed out. 
Given limited access to one another, it takes time to hash out what it means. 

I know in this time and age of immediate gratification (or close to it..) it would feel better to burn the witches but then you have to find the next set of suckers (I mean volunteers) to organize and get the show together which requires a lot of work, you still have to pay for the behind the scenes tour and the keynote talk and your hotel room (if you are staying)... so basically you put out a lot of effort (and as with any committee some more than others) to get free admission to the show... but you almost always end up working during the show (watching doors, helping with the auction, setting up the workshops, talks, sitting at tables taking money, hawking tee-shirts (psst hey buddy want to score a t-shirt or please mister won't you please buy a shirt, its for a good cause), walking around to make sure that rules are being followed, trying to keep an eye out for shoplifters to give the vendors a hand...) or running other errands.... which is why some years more than others, it gets put together faster. All it takes is for one or two of the people on the committee to have difficulties with the amount of time they can spend with it and it may not happen.... 
So if you want to happen better next year... pony up to the bar pilgrim... 

Ed


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

After reading this thread all night for the first time, I am rather surprised that no one has asked. "why is IAD the only one?" Meaning, if we don't like their rules, why don't we start our own IAD with our rules, who needs them!!! I know it is a lot of work, but someone started IAD didn't they?

I do agree though that it makes no since for "outsiders" to be on this IAD board. I would have thought that more of their committee would also be members of this board. Sounds like a changing of the guard is in order. Kind of makes you wonder what they do do for a living? School teachers? Army Generals? Oh, I know.... CIA Operatives??


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

DMV, they all work there. :lol:


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## AlexSens (Dec 14, 2006)

dragonfrog said:


> I do agree though that it makes no since for "outsiders" to be on this IAD board. I would have thought that more of their committee would also be members of this board. Sounds like a changing of the guard is in order. Kind of makes you wonder what they do do for a living? School teachers? Army Generals? Oh, I know.... CIA Operatives??


I have been lurking on this board and to this discussion now for a while, and I feel I need to chime in. The people who started IAD, of whom I am one, are not "outsiders," but people deeply concerned with the wellbeing of amphibians; most of us got involved initially because we were either hobbyists or zookeepers working with animals early in the history of this hobby over the last few decades. At the time we started the show, there were no other ones devoted to amphibians exclusively and we got tired of the strange looks from boa breeeders; we saw it as a broader event than just a dendrobatid event, or even a frog event. What we wanted was a serious integration of scientists, who in the past denigrated the contribution of animal breeders, and hobbyists. The extent that we have been able to do this--and I do think we have been taken seriously by the scientific and conservation community, as the weightiness of our speakers in the past shows--has something to do with the seriousness with which we take our agreement with MARS, which provided funding and legal coverage over the years, among other things. (By the way, if you want to start a show of this sort that is open to the public and you don't want risk losing your house, you'd better figure out a way to cover your legal butt in case someone trips on an extension cord and breaks his neck; I can guarantee you that good coverage would be prohibitive if you did it on your own--we wanted to be buying rainforest, not paying insurance companies--but we can do it because we piggyback with MARS.)

Now the reality is that most of us deal with IAD in a sort of desultory way, and it is a function of our own busy lives that sometimes the event takes a while to pull together. The hobby has changed a lot but it's unfair to characterize us as out of touch; the issue being discussed now is a complex one and it's sometime hard for us to move quickly or efficiently, but we are moving, and I would urge patience for a day or two. The issue will, I think, be resolved in a way that most reasonable people can and should agree on. 

For what it's worth, we've been looking for and actively recruiting "new blood" for a while; there are a number of new members to the group. There is no black-helicopter conspiracy, but just a bunch of well-intentioned people, many with distinguished histories of contribution to the hobby and serious credentials with the environmental and scientific communities. Membership is not a secret--it's just not published anywhere. I know that people in the hobby take this seriously, as all of us do, but a deep breath would be helpful all around.

At this point, all I ask is that folks sit tight for a day or so. We want to do this right, in a way that anticipates issues that come up in the future. Please remember that we are clarifying policy not just for this year or for the two Peruvian projects, but for projects and possibilities we can't even imagine at this point any more than we could have imagined the current situation when we started the show.

Alex Sens


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## AlexSens (Dec 14, 2006)

AlexSens said:


> At the time we started the show, there were no other ones devoted to amphibians exclusively
> 
> Alex Sens


Whoops, I should have written "no other ones on the East Coast" ... sorry, Chuck ...


Alex


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

The issue, compiled (grown to scramble), I have no start point.

First of all, I enjoy seeing many of you not taking your right to question for granted. Nice job, now you just have to question it all.




> I don't know if people realize IAD is run by a group of volunteers. Anyone who has every worked in such an environment knows that decisions are often very sssslllllooooowww......


That makes a very poor ass excuse, sure, but still no reason. To make it seem as if it is/had a reason, is to just burry the hash, that by the way, HAS TO HAPPEN. Gotta dig.

Not an attack on you Melissa, by any means, but you were speaking for that commitee (IAD). I don't doubt they would try to pull the same excuse and try to throw it around as reason.



> there isn't much time so you need to learn to react quickly or we all lose.





> We do not have the luxury of time any longer.





> Maybe I`m missing it but the clock is ticking.


Pissed it all away, ay. And what's new?



> Another thing that I feel strongly about is that I think IAD needs to really put alot less emphasis on the whole "sales" part of the event anyways. There needs to be more lectures and presentations and workshops! It almost seems to dumb down what the frog and amphibian community should be caring about.


To the point in expanse of informing and steering the preference of attendees towards wanting to know more about, rather than about WANTING more/any-, I agree. But 'we' still need both, or where is the consistant financial support? Effort needs to be supplied primarily in educating, no doubt, should be set/seen as standard, but then.., "all those pertty colors". 
If I ever wrote a book, I don't think I would ever put a picture in it. The prize should be in knowing of the animal in all general discription (personality/behavior, habitat..) gaining appreciation for what it really is, what's it's need, how to care for, FIRST. But of course always eye candy. In 'our' world the frogs' have to pay for their beauty, how sad, and in theirs', left alone (by people), it guaranteed them chance.



> The rules were the same then as they are now. What has changed is the source of the frogs. That's what has really changed in the last few years, how frogs are coming into the country. And that is what we (the IAD Committee) are discussing.


The legit continually being questioned of their efforts... And yet then (still) .... (was going to write something here [how/who changed], hesitated, decided I shouldn't {just leading another branch])

Something's a little screwy w/ this quote, that's all, vague, if anyone knows what I speak of feel free to elaborate it for me. Explain, fill the generalized voids.



> The govt`s are corrupt? Or is this just another ploy to keep the people on the top on the top just like we see so often in all our gov`t policies?


That can't be in the form of a question..




> Has anyone thought of composing a petition and passing it around? I wonder if that would help getting things changed and updated with IAD's rules?
> 
> I wonder how many signatures we could get?
> [quote:yiaj3drq]Melis and I have already expressed our concerns to the IAD commitee via email. We would be happy to sign a petition as well..... But, what would be more effective. One email with 75 signatures or 75 emails. hmmmm..... What would be harder to ignore?


[/quote:yiaj3drq]

I like how this chick (lady) thinks.

That letter Bill cited is a nice start. But if everyone could make there own, that WOULD get attention. Quite a daunting task.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I said it what I hoped was a humerous way above but stchupa's comments are going to make me say it a little more bluntly...

Sorry you can't be more instantly gratified.

If you think there are problems with how IAD gets put together and issues resolved then get off your rear and volunteer. Do some work. Volunteer for a workshop, help them line up speaker, there are lots of things to do.. 

Its really easy for the people who are sitting somewhere else to critize a process when they are not part of the system. 

Ed


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

This thread started 3 days ago, I am sure that IAD now has the message loud and clear and that productive discussions are now occurring. My guess would be we will see these restrictions changed in the next few days or maybe even a couple of weeks but I for one will now allow time for a response.
The Peru projects are easily recognized as right and good for our community, I would be very surprised to not see the restriction for these groups lifted in the next few days.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Stchupa,

Don't worry - I don't take your response as an attack. 

No, I am not speaking on behalf of the IAD committee. Currently, there are at least 3 (that I know of) members of the IAD committee participating in this thread. Those members are Ed, Scott & AlexSens. 

My comments are based on my personal experience. Unlike a small company, larger companies and non profits take time to make decisions. I am sure somewhere out there some one has written a thesis & developed a formulation calculating this value (my poor attempt of a joke). Whatever the formula is, the value of time necessary to make a decision is impacted by the type & size of the company. 

I think Ed's comment about everyone being used to instant gratification has some merit. 

What is important, the ball is rolling; people (IAD committee) is aware of the issue, we are having a peaceful debate & there is a consensuses - change needs to happen.

Melissa





stchupa said:


> > I don't know if people realize IAD is run by a group of volunteers. Anyone who has every worked in such an environment knows that decisions are often very sssslllllooooowww......
> 
> 
> That makes a very poor ass excuse, sure, but still no reason. To make it seem as if it is/had a reason, is to just burry the hash, that by the way, HAS TO HAPPEN. Gotta dig.
> ...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm not sure if SBreland or Schtupa (sorry if I misspelled either of those, I'm not going back to look up the names) have ever even been to IAD.

Melis and Sarah are longstanding IAD Vendors with an excellent reputation for helping out when needed.

I value their words highly here because they have been there and they understand the underlying mission.

Mark - you are absolutely right in your presumptions. Thank you for the space. 

s


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## dartfrogs (May 26, 2004)

Hi Ed,

I'm afraid that this post is starting to take a direction away from the original point. The concern was not that the IAD board was not acting quickly enough, but rather just the opposite. A potential vendor was informed quite swiftly from one IAD board memebr that they would not be able to offer animals from a source outside the US. The vendor, although posessing CITES documentation on the animals, was not allowed to provide the proof to the board for their consideration. It was that action and then the apparent lack of response or acknowledgement from all but a couple board members that has caused this stirring of the community. I cannot speak for everyone else here but can only communicate my personal concerns and have tried to do so. 

I have served as a volunteer in several instances and capacities in the past and do know the challenges involved. From that perspective I can appreciate the tremendous workload assumed by the members. What I do find frustrating is that, except for just a couple of you, there has been no communication from anyone else on the board acknowledging the issue and letting anyone know that they are even contemplating making any changes. I feel that this lack of input is what causes the most frustration among the group and what then leads to speculation and accusation. The fact that these two organizations are apparently involved in conservation on the surface also leads many to wonder why this would need to be an issue. If there is speculation that this may not be the case then I think all evidence needs to be evaluated and evidence needs to be provided. Hearsay is potentially damaging to everyone involved.

I am not attacking the board, or its members personaly at all and do not want it to be misconstrued that way. I have said repeatedly that I know they only have the best interests of the amphibian population in mind when weighing these decisions. I do, however, feel that they have a responsibility to people outside the board regarding keeping people informed. The challenges that face us today cannot be tackled by any one group and needs the support of every able body available. This group is a great resource of interested and dedicated individuals to aid in that purpose.

I would also like to clarify that even though this is an issue about selling animals, I feel it represents much more than that. I do feel that the conservation/education aspect should become an even greater part of this event. Unfortunately, I do not have too many answers as to how to go about that and often find myself surprised at the results of some of the activities. The auction always amazes me by the few people that stay around long enough to even participate. This is one of the most important parts of IAD from the perspective of adding funds directly to the project yet I do not see the same amount of interaction as I do at the sales tables. One event I find myself comparing it to is the International Aroid Convention held in Florida each year. During their fundraising auction plants typically sell for 3-4 times what you can go out to a vendor's table and purchase them for. The whole idea is to raise funds and not get the 'cheapest price'. I don't undertstand why it is not the same here.

I realize that the last portion of this post may appear to have gone off track but I don't think it has as it represents my overall concern for the conservation side of this event. For me, this issue is not about selling animals but the stance the board will be taking on supporting a new face on conservation efforts that will force everyone to think outside the box. I believe that conservation will be a continually changing challenge in the future requiring the ability to quickly and proactively change with it.

Richard


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

The board member contacted wasn't sure how to pursue it Richard. He was basically going by the "old" rules where anything at all like this was a Red Flag.

So it was passed to an internal discussion and that's where it has been since.

I'm not sure if this answers your question or not ... but there you go.

I know Ed has very limited PC access during the day, so do not expect to hear back from him till evening.

s


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ok lets be clear, the IAD Committee has heard the concerns, and is discussing them, but to expect and instance answer is unreasonable. So lets give them time to work out a public statement.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Please, civility people. I fly off the handle. I`m not right in the head and sometimes I do these things. Either it will get done or it won`t. There is nothing more to say till we get an answer. Don`t let something I(WE ALL) are trying to accomplish for the hobby to get out of control, Please.
After reading Richards post, Except Richard :lol: :lol: 

This is very touchy, I`m trying to get Mark and Marcus in, not destroy IAD`s reputation. There is a whole second step here AFTER the decision, save your energy. If they allow it I have to go there. I`m sure I`ll be getting a LOT of cross looks already and I really don`t want to make it any worse.
My girlfriend`s probably going to yell at me for even writing this, you guys are getting me in trouble now!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: 
I promised her I wouldn`t write anymore till there is an answer.


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## milmoejoe (May 8, 2006)

I also am a long-time lurker and have recently discovered the thread.

I don't mean to be an ass, but 'frogfarm' your post was callous, immature and frankly pathetic. I think your dirty laundry needs to be kept to yourself. 

I've been a full time volunteer during show season for the sixth year now. I am unbiased in my involvement, other than providing a helping hand for all the last minute needs and what not. 

I think it's becoming clear, as Richard pointed out, that in reality this is a commercially based trade show. Deny it if you want, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that all that anticipation and excitement saturday morning is for no other than spending the green. Along with this, the attitudes amongst (everyone) are evolving to cater to this atmosphere. 

Conservation is great, and is obviously the ideal goal to support the field work both by the group, its members and on an individual level. Given that, I personally feel that decisions such as the trade of (ecologically dead) animals have very little effect on the conservation status in the wild territories. 

I think it's important to keep in mind that this field is growing, and that it's an amazing thing. The jealousy and animosity needs to be diverted and re-channeled into productive and pro-active energy to continue growing the industry. At the same time, I think it's extremely important to continue the communication and involvement amongst everyone, working out controversial issues such as this one.

Just my $0.02


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

milmoejoe said:


> I don't mean to be an ass, but 'frogfarm' your post was callous, immature and frankly pathetic. I think your dirty laundry needs to be kept to yourself.


Well since Aaron has promised his gf to not post further on this thread I'll make a response on his behalf to keep him out of trouble with his better half. Those individual who have met Aaron or interacted with him know that he is passionate about a number of things. By his own admission he can get wild and crazy at times. However he calms down and moves forward.

Personally I think his original challenge in this case was spot on so I suppose that makes me immature and frankly pathetic as well. Callous, well I don't know :wink: 

Bill


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## milmoejoe (May 8, 2006)

That post happened while I was writing, so I apologize for the inconvienent timing.

As I said, i'm indifferent about what you'd want to challenge. I agree it's important to have established rules, not only for enforcing them but developing the principle behind doing so.

I simply noted the method of approaching the problem. 

Public outcry, announcing that he was revoking some sort of priveledge (his attendance?) due to a personal dissatisfaction was .. pathetic. Not a progressive move in my book.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

As Bill said, Aaron is passionate about the hobby. His emotions sometimes get carried away. That is Aaron, you either accept him that way or you don't. 

I don't think you need to call him or his attempt to bring this to everyone's attention, pathetic on the forum - a pm to him might be more appropiate.





milmoejoe said:


> Public outcry, announcing that he was revoking some sort of priveledge (his attendance?) due to a personal dissatisfaction was .. pathetic. Not a progressive move in my book.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Scott said:


> I'm not sure if SBreland or Schtupa (sorry if I misspelled either of those, I'm not going back to look up the names) have ever even been to IAD.
> 
> Melis and Sarah are longstanding IAD Vendors with an excellent reputation for helping out when needed.
> 
> ...


Scott, 
Out of curiousity, what the hell difference does it make if I (or schtupa) have or haven't been to IAD? This is at least the third time I have seen you call me out specifically either by name or comment and am not sure what exactly it is that makes you feel the need to pinpoint me. I don't care as it doesn't bother me, but it just makes me curious with your fixation on just my comments and your insistence to respond gruffly to mine but cordially to others such as Richard, Aaron, Marcus, etc. I have only echoed (in differnet words) what several others have said here, yet you think I am the only one you decide to debate/alienate. Is it because I am a newer frogger or don't have a big name attached to me? How come you don't direct the same questions to Richard or the others? Obvilously some (probably most if not all) of them have been to IAD, but what does that have to do with the situation we are discussing? I don't see how my going or not going to IAD pertains to the policy that we are questioning or the questions I (we) have posed. If you feel the need to single me out further, go ahead, but you asked this to be a civil discussion and I have only raised civil questions since that point. Unless you have a particular reason for continually isolating me that ACTUALLY MATTERS, you should probably be concerned with the situation rather than the little guy you are trying to alienate. I very well could be wrong, but you seem to think (and act like) the only people's opinion that matter are the ones with big names and since I am not one of those you think it's OK to try to set an example with me and make me the heel. In fact, your quote above pretty much flat out says that if you don't know the person (or their big name), that you don't value or respect their comments. Just deal with the issue... if I am really that important to you PM me about it.
On the topic itself...
I really appreciate Alex's contribution to the discussion. For once in the is discussion I feel a little more "educated" and not like someone is trying to lead us around with a blindfold. Alex let us in on some of the inner working and reasons things happen the way they do, so I don't see why it was so hard for anyone else to do this. Knowing some of the background and reasoning makes it a little easier to swallow, and while some of the pleas to "give it some time" before seemed like just another BS stall tactic, I do believe what Alex says because he backs it up with info and facts, not just "trust me" comments. Thanks Alex for helping to address some of the concerns as it seems a much brighter situation than it was when others were being so evasive about the situation...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`ve accepted that you can`t win them all. Frankly it was quite pathetic what I did and I should`ve gone straight to the board. I`ve insulted a lot of people`s work by flying off the handle and deserve this. I`m not good at public display which is why i moved out, away from people. I have insulted a lot of people`s hard work. I knew I would damage my reputation, in ways, doing so. I deserve it and have no reply but what I`ve already stated. Good intentions or not, there is a way to go about these things.
Please don`t respond on my behalf. I appreciate it, I REALLY do, but please. I don`t want a big us against them and that is all this will accomplish.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Aaron, the only embarassment you would do to yourself would be to sit back on a situation that you feel strongly about. You believed something was wrong and you posed the question in the one way you thought would get the most action, which it apparently has. To be honest, if you hadn't written this thread I doubt the situation would have ever even come to a discussion by the IAD board (at least this year). The reason I posted my thoughts which basically backed yours (although some of mine were not exactly your concerns) is because I feel strongly about supporting whats right and questioning what I think is wrong. I have nothing at stake in this and could have easily sat back and watched, but like you I am passionate about the hobby and the people doing the most to progress it and in this case I felt those people were being done wrong. Sure, you have and will catch a lot of shit about it and so have I, but to know you stood up for what you believed was right is a good thing. You have a well respected name in the hobby and people know you are passionate about your frogs so you will not be looked down on for this by most, but I don't have the luxury of everyone knowing me or my desires so I expect my "respect level" has probably taken a hit because a nobody questioned the big boys. So be it, at least I backed a stand i thought was right. You have my respect if nobody elses and I thank you for bringing this situation to light as it probably would have otherwise went unnoticed.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Sbreland,

You haven't lost any respect from me. I honestly do not know you and have only dealt with you on this post - (that I know of, although our paths might have crossed before).

I might have an opinion of you, but it is much higher than you think. I am sure others feel the same way.

I might have missed it, but do you mind sharing your first name? 

Melis


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Thanks


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Up until this point, while I have followed this thread very closely, I did not feel the need to interject - as all sides were well represented. But I feel the need to respond to one of the most recent posts.



milmoejoe said:


> I think it's becoming clear, as Richard pointed out, that in reality this is a commercially based trade show. Deny it if you want, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that all that anticipation and excitement saturday morning is for no other than spending the green. Along with this, the attitudes amongst (everyone) are evolving to cater to this atmosphere.


Maybe the anticipation for Saturday morning may be to spend "the green" for some, but what about Friday night, Saturday afternoon, and late nights in the hotel lobby? If you haven't attended an IAD, you may not know what I am talking about - but that is the heart of the IAD experience. IAD is an incredible LEARNING opportunity. While the sales are a necessary part of generating the revenue that is donated each year, it is by no means the the purpose of the event.



milmoejoe said:


> The jealousy and animosity needs to be diverted and re-channeled into productive and pro-active energy to continue growing the industry.


You are watching the channeling of "jealousy and animosity" as we speak. The issue at the center of this thread is stance of the IAD committee on frogs produced by the INIBICO and Understory projects. The primary goal of both projects is conservation. Buy a frog from Understory (directly, through someone like SNDF, or an individual breeder who donates a portion of their sales back to one of these projects) - and you are directly contributing to the purchase, conservation and protection of the native habitats of these frogs.



milmoejoe said:


> Given that, I personally feel that decisions such as the trade of (ecologically dead) animals have very little effect on the conservation status in the wild territories.


Then maybe you missed the point of this discussion.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It *does* matter if you've been there SBreland. That's the difference between how I view what you've said, and the others you mention. They talk from a point of reference of having been there. You apparently do not.

Like Oz just said, till you experience the fun of hanging out with a large group of (fairly) like minded people, you just can't speak to it. Go and you'll understand. 

I too am happy Alex chimed in. In my eyes he is the most open minded, well spoken, member of our little group (not to dis anyone, just sayin'). He is the Dean of the group if you will. 

s


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

While I agree the IAD experiencewould be a great one to have, not all are able to do that when it is on the opposite coast. I'd love to go if there was an IAD on this half of the country, but a cross country trip is not exactly in my budget and probably wouldn't sit too well with the fiance as we plan for a wedding ( I can just hear it now... :roll: ). At any rate, the IAD experience would allow me to see some things, but those things would have nothing to do with this particular situation we are discussing which is why I keep redirecting your comments at me back to the discussion, because whether I have been to IAD once or 1000 times has absolutely nothing to do with what is being debated here. My experience level, whether I have one frog or too many (as Antone might say :wink: ), or if I have been to IAD carry zero factor in the questions I am posing. Now, if it did I and anyone else who had never been to IAD would be the few questioning this, but with the like of Richard, Aaron, Marcus,etc questioning it, it obviously means that having been to an IAD before is a nonfactor despite what you may think. Honestly, I don't care if you single me out, I am a big boy (yeah, don't let the name fool you) and I can handle it but if you are goingto single me out at least do it on something that is a factor in the equation.



> I might have missed it, but do you mind sharing your first name?


Stace


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`ve gotta leave this and wait and put it up later, i`m sorry, i`m worried i`ll really have a problem if I don`t.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

OK, nevermind then, I guess when the people that I am supporting anmd the people that I thought held the same viewpoint tell me I am completely wrong, then apparently my support was misguided and I should have never spoken and now should just shut up. Sorry for anyone I have offended with my apparently totally naive and off base views... I am done with this now. For someone that has no other vested interest in this other than to see the right thing done, it's not worth it to me anymore.

Good luck at the show, however it ends up


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Oz has spoken...


> The issue at the center of this thread is stance of the IAD committee on frogs produced by the INIBICO and Understory projects. The primary goal of both projects is conservation. Buy a frog from Understory (directly, through someone like SNDF, or an individual breeder who donates a portion of their sales back to one of these projects) - and you are directly contributing to the purchase, conservation and protection of the native habitats of these frogs.


This is the same point I wanted to state also, in that the hobbiest/consumer plays a major role in the business model and success of these conservation projects. These projects would not be as successful without us/them, IMO. It really is a clever and effficient way to use market forces to fuel a conservation effort. The "sale" portion of IAD can directly support conservation as well as provide a venue to foster awareness, communication, and support. 


EricG.NH


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Hey sbreland - I'll say this... your money is going to the right spot (your upcoming wedding). Congratulations.

But... there's always next year. 

s


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Hey Aaron,

That first one waaaaas a bit interesting.

The second one on have been amazing. I remember Jack (Azureus) and Ron (Blue Histos) talks like it was yesterday.

s


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## AlexSens (Dec 14, 2006)

All,

I will be writing later today or tomorrow with a clarification of our interpretation of the show rules as they apply to the new projects and to others that may arise. 

For now, I want to let you know that our keynote speaker for Friday has been finalized:

Joe Mendelson, curator of herps at Zoo Atlanta, who has been involved in major amphibian rescue and ex-situ colony projects. 

Our speakers for Saturday night include: Devin Edmonds, Dante Fenolio, and Matt Mirabello. Additional information will be forthcoming as we have it.

Alex


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

(woot!)


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## milmoejoe (May 8, 2006)

rozdaboff, I didn't mean to offend you and I hope none was taken.

As I said, I have been involved for six years and well aware the additional and extra curricular activites that you spoke of. These are the many regulars that are passionate about their work, that too are often there before and after the doors are open. 

Back on track, I don't think theres any question that (the situation you mentioned) is a frontline issue that needs to be considered. 

Other organizations I am involved with have encountered similar problems and responded with establishing criteria or recognition for those who (seemingly) exploit X resource, but make it a point to go above and beyond by giving back to the environment. I gather that this is very similar.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Rich,

I hope you appreciate it.. I'm using my break time to respond.. ( I have a meeting tonight so any other replies will either be very late or tomorrow..) 

snip "I'm afraid that this post is starting to take a direction away from the original point. The concern was not that the IAD board was not acting quickly enough, but rather just the opposite. A potential vendor was informed quite swiftly from one IAD board memebr that they would not be able to offer animals from a source outside the US."endsnip 

Actually they are directly related as people became very irritated at the time it was taking to work towards a resolution. The problem is that there are several tasks for each IAD member that are often quite involved.. vendor registration, issues and questions (the questions often involve tracking down a third party for a response), tracking the number of tables required; communicating these needs to the hotel, tracking down and soliciting speakers and workshops, tracking prepayment and registration for the different levels of participation, t-shirts, design ordering and prepayment and pickup.. I can go on with this list. 
Instead of having one person or committee to deal with different problems we have several problems for each person.. When there are discussions, the committee cannot concentrate totally on the one issue as they have to do thier regular lives as well as multiple other IAD tasks so they are continually interrupted. 
If there was sufficient volunteer support then the tasks could be assigned out to little subgroups allowing those with experience to deal with the bigger issues, keep the whole thing going smoothly, train up more people who would be able to pitch in etc and keep it going. 
This would also allow for a faster resolution of the issues as they came up.... 


snip " From that perspective I can appreciate the tremendous workload assumed by the members. What I do find frustrating is that, except for just a couple of you, there has been no communication from anyone else on the board acknowledging the issue and letting anyone know that they are even contemplating making any changes. I feel that this lack of input is what causes the most frustration among the group and what then leads to speculation and accusation. "endsnip 

See above... Also keep in mind that this is a committee.. Is it really necessary to have each one of them log on and say.. we are working on it? Particuarly when that time is then removed from the multiple tasks at hand? I got into this because Scott was getting beaten up and I had some points for people to think about. 
Almost every year one or more of the people who have helped get it together burns out and doesn't want to be involved in it the following year, and the rate of people stepping up has not even kept up with the increase in tasks.... so more people get stretched further and further... at some point it will break... 
Some of the regulars on the committee have been trying to get it in a different venue for a number of years now but there is a lack of interest in those who could host it so the standby has been Maryland each year... 


snip "I am not attacking the board, or its members personaly at all and do not want it to be misconstrued that way. I have said repeatedly that I know they only have the best interests of the amphibian population in mind when weighing these decisions. I do, however, feel that they have a responsibility to people outside the board regarding keeping people informed. The challenges that face us today cannot be tackled by any one group and needs the support of every able body available. This group is a great resource of interested and dedicated individuals to aid in that purpose."endsnip 

See above... I don't think you are attacking the board but when you are using most of your spare time up trying to get something to work, the last thing you want to get tangeled up in is a public argument at which more than one point very emotional. 
You are asking for transparency in decision making. This is a desirable thing in and of itself but you have to have sufficient support to be able to spend the time to make it available. 

snip "I would also like to clarify that even though this is an issue about selling animals, I feel it represents much more than that. I do feel that the conservation/education aspect should become an even greater part of this event. Unfortunately, I do not have too many answers as to how to go about that and often find myself surprised at the results of some of the activities."endsnip

There have been workshops that were attended by less than 10 people. The ones closest to the start of the show are the worst attended. Imagine how the person presenting the workshop feels when less than 10 people show up... Given all of the discussion on nutrition on this site, you would have expected that there would be good attendance at the nutrition workshops I gave but last years despite being on the site had about 25 people attend.... 

snip "The auction always amazes me by the few people that stay around long enough to even participate. This is one of the most important parts of IAD from the perspective of adding funds directly to the project yet I do not see the same amount of interaction as I do at the sales tables. One event I find myself comparing it to is the International Aroid Convention held in Florida each year. During their fundraising auction plants typically sell for 3-4 times what you can go out to a vendor's table and purchase them for. The whole idea is to raise funds and not get the 'cheapest price'. I don't undertstand why it is not the same here. "endsnip

Many items sold for way less than they were sold for on the tables... 


Some comments...

Ed


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## Swanwillow (Feb 27, 2007)

ok, So I read most of this thread... ok, half.

but I think I may have a solution for ya'll.

why not make the rule, since part of the argument is conservation...

"to be allowed to sell animals at this site, you must contribute at least 15% of your yearly earnings from frog sales to conservation efforts"


voila! Then yes, some people would be mad that they can't be there unless they donate that 15%. But then its about conservation and not about whos better than who, or where the frogs came from.

proof of this is tricky, its just an IDEA


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## Tim F (Jan 27, 2006)

*I LOVE THIS FORUM* because things like this happen!

It’s been said throughout this post that things take time, but let’s face it – when the heat is turned up, things get done a little faster.

This whole issue is on the front burner because Aaron put his head / reputation on the proverbial chopping block. A softer approach would not have generated this much discussion or yielded results so quickly.

For what it’s worth, I have a great deal of respect for those who’ve participated in this discussion so passionately at the risk of getting smacked around a little.

Also, for what it’s worth, I think we really NEED our mavericks, so thanks Aaron! Damage to your reputation??? I hardly think so. You’ve done the opposite IMO.


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