# Fecal testing



## darkspot716 (Sep 4, 2008)

how many people on here ACTUALLY do fecal tests.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Fecals are extremely important and I do them very often at home (I have an extensive background in parasitology). Usually, I do them every few months or when I pick up something new. 

I have found some crazy stuff in rescues and WC. It really makes you be careful with quarantine procedures after seeing the variety of parasites you can introduce if your not cautious. 

John


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

darkspot716 said:


> how many people on here ACTUALLY do fecal tests.


Only the ones that are seriously interested in a greater understanding of the health of their collection.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

i do them each year, as random as human conscience can be. And I Ranavirus Chytrid pcr on everything new.

Edit: True, Dane. I didn't mean to come across as arrogant. We who do as we do, do so for a reason. It doesn't make it any less right or wrong. We all have our reasons. Commonly, its for the animal!


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

Are there any home tests that have been developed for this? I looked online a bit, and it seems a fairly complicated.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

LizardLicker said:


> Are there any home tests that have been developed for this? I looked online a bit, and it seems a fairly complicated.


For Ranavirus and Chytrid? I've bought collection swabs from one of our sponsors: Dendrobati.com. You can send samples to Research Associates Laboratory for a very reasonable cost and their turnaround time has always been very quick. Use their 'Reptile' submission form located here: Submission Form If you're uncomfortable doing the collection, or if you prefer, a specialized Veterinarian can be used.

Good info here: http://www.amphibianark.org/the-crisis/chytrid-fungus/


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

I think doing testing is a good thing buuut..

- quite difficult with pums and Pumilio
- you need fresh fecals in most cases
- laboratories here sometimes tend to discover Chytrid in almost everything..


I had a friend joking that you could send them dog poo and they'd still discover Chytrid 


another issue in my eyes is Chytrid on healthy frogs whose immun system can cope with it but will die through it via other sicknesses, stress, too much handling etc...


of course things like exchaning tanks, plants etc can also help spread diseases to a safe and healthy captive population.


when I sent in some fecals that from my Pumilio I got told they fine - and lost two of them right afterwards...


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## darkspot716 (Sep 4, 2008)

Im not gonna lie, I've never done a fecal test before. Ive never had an issue before, and on top of it I feel like I'm much more mature now than when i first started.
So one of my frogs died. I havent had a frog die in really longer than i can remember. It just died so its still fresh. so what do i do collect the animal and some fresh fecal and send them both off to RAL? do i hafta swab it too and send that? I may not be able to check my DB for a couple of hours. so if ou want you can just text me an answer

john
716-270-7527


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## darkspot716 (Sep 4, 2008)

just an update i found a local vet that could help me out with all of this, turns out that he used to be the head vet at the buffalo zoo!!

however i still have a couple of questions-

do you guys test everyone of your frogs and how often do you do it...it seems like it would get very expensive. i currently have 59 frogs - i think


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

aspidites73 said:


> i do them each year, as random as human conscience can be. And I Ranavirus Chytrid pcr on everything new.
> 
> Edit: True, Dane. I didn't mean to come across as arrogant. We who do as we do, do so for a reason. It doesn't make it any less right or wrong. We all have our reasons. Commonly, its for the animal!


No worries David, the only way I would have taken offense would have been if I was among those that DON'T
test. Sounds like your protocol is the same as mine in that arena.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

If, for the sake of simplicity, you were to replace the word 'frogs' with 'dogs' not only would your statement be criminal but, "it seems like it would get very expensive" very quickly becomes a euphemism for I can't afford to properly care for the animals I, by choice of keeping them, have promised to look after. Where would you be if you had 59 humans you were neglecting, simply because it was cost prohibitive to do otherwise? Why should frogs be considered any less a life form? Rhetoric aside, please help me understand why your statement that you are not even sure of how many frogs you are keeping, let alone that you know your not providing for the ones you have accounted for, should be met with the slightest bit of sympathy towards your wallet? (insert redacted slew of 4 letter words here!)



darkspot716 said:


> just an update i found a local vet that could help me out with all of this, turns out that he used to be the head vet at the buffalo zoo!!
> 
> however i still have a couple of questions-
> 
> do you guys test everyone of your frogs and how often do you do it...it seems like it would get very expensive. i currently have 59 frogs - i think


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

my little frogs are still babies, and they poop on the glass. how does one obtain a specimen? are these dried out little poops acceptable for testing? I don't know how else to get one.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Welcome to the 'board' and our addiction, Colleen! Thank you for the perfect example of a beginner question by someone who doesn't want to become a beginner with years of experience! Please find some time looking here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/36847-links-articles.html
You will find the answer to your question there. Here is a direct link as well.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/36848-collecting-sending-fecals-examination.html .




ColleenT said:


> my little frogs are still babies, and they poop on the glass. how does one obtain a specimen? are these dried out little poops acceptable for testing? I don't know how else to get one.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

aspidites73 said:


> If, for the sake of simplicity, you were to replace the word 'frogs' with 'dogs' not only would your statement be criminal but, "it seems like it would get very expensive" very quickly becomes a euphemism for I can't afford to properly care for the animals I, by choice of keeping them, have promised to look after. Where would you be if you had 59 humans you were neglecting, simply because it was cost prohibitive to do otherwise? Why should frogs be considered any less a life form? Rhetoric aside, please help me understand why your statement that you are not even sure of how many frogs you are keeping, let alone that you know your not providing for the ones you have accounted for, should be met with the slightest bit of sympathy towards your wallet? (insert redacted slew of 4 letter words here!)



In his defense, I don't know (exactly) how many frogs I own. Some can be very prolific and exact numbers can be unknown without tearing down a tank. I just purchased a group of 6 imitators, but when I arrived I saw at least 9 and there are probably more. Who knows how many froglets and tadpoles are in there?

And to darkspot: Yes, It can be "very expensive", but only in a relative way. These are living animals and in my opinion testing is very well worth the investment. You probably won't have to test every single frog though, a sample from each enclosure is all that is necessary. Remember though, a negative fecal or rana/chytrid test does not mean your frogs do not have these, but just says that they were not detected at the time. I recommend doing multiple fecals every year in order to give you the best picture of your frog's health.

John


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## darkspot716 (Sep 4, 2008)

I say I think 59 frogs cause I have several breeding groups. 
I just ripped someone up on a board for trying to figure out how to mix species, and he kept saying he shouldnt be bashed for trying to learn and here I am about to say this - im just trying to learn something that I SHOULD have learned years ago.
The money isnt so much my focus Im just wondering. I knew I was gonna get bashed for posting some truthful info about myself but thats how I learn more. There is nobody in my area that does any sort of amphibians around me - besides Aaron who I have only dealt with once years ago and I dont know how to get a hold of. So the only way I can learn is by asking you all. Also if I didnt care about my animals I wouldnt have taken my 8 year old bicolor ( my favorite frog) to the vet and drop $100 only to have my frog 2 hours later. But again I dont car e about the money it was about my animals quality of life. 
I just want to make sure that i can provide better care for the animals that i have. I never said that i wasnt going to do something if it cost too much, I just have to make sure i can balance it between being a single father paying for a house, a 4 year old, her mother, a dog....you know all the other things that come with life. I'm not really even complaining about cost at all - it was a very small part of my post


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Further, yet, into his defense i don't care how many frogs he has. When we decide they stay in our glass box we commit to providing it the best life we can offer. Despite my best attempts, a reptile never came crawling to me, asking for a place to stay! Try as I may, Python anchietae still preferred Angola to my, relatively calm version of SE Africa!! I was even offering similar real estate in the Northern Hemisphere!!! 



FroggyKnight said:


> In his defense, I don't know (exactly) how many frogs I own. Some can be very prolific and exact numbers can be unknown without tearing down a tank. I just purchased a group of 6 imitators, but when I arrived I saw at least 9 and there are probably more. Who knows how many froglets and tadpoles are in there?
> 
> And to darkspot: Yes, It can be "very expensive", but only in a relative way. These are living animals and in my opinion testing is very well worth the investment. You probably won't have to test every single frog though, a sample from each enclosure is all that is necessary. Remember though, a negative fecal or rana/chytrid test does not mean your frogs do not have these, but just says that they were not detected at the time. I recommend doing multiple fecals every year in order to give you the best picture of your frog's health.
> 
> John


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## darkspot716 (Sep 4, 2008)

thank you froggyknight for an actual answer to the question instead of just being met with scorn. But I understand that is just the board and people are passionate about their animals.

so then how often do you get your tanks tested. keep in mind I only want to know so that i can get it done properly.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Darkspot716, With all due respect, you have been a member for the better part of 6 years. In that amount of time you remain in need of basic husbandry advice? You have spent, minimally, 5 years establishing your collection yet your most recent post continues to indicate you have zero concept of what is right and wrong. You may thank froggyknight for alleviating your scorn. You can not thank your animals for the same!



darkspot716 said:


> thank you froggyknight for an actual answer to the question instead of just being met with scorn. But I understand that is just the board and people are passionate about their animals.
> 
> so then how often do you get your tanks tested. keep in mind I only want to know so that i can get it done properly.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

darkspot716 said:


> thank you froggyknight for an actual answer to the question instead of just being met with scorn. But I understand that is just the board and people are passionate about their animals.
> 
> so then how often do you get your tanks tested. keep in mind I only want to know so that i can get it done properly.


You can call it passionate. Some people are just d***'* who should help someone out. The first step to getting fecals done is finding an easily accessible place to do so. Ex. A vet, lab, etc. Americans tend to blow off things they have to put work into doing. Our society has become lazy. Most people don't know they can have fecals done on almost every tank in their collection for the cost of that new trio of pumilio.


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## darkspot716 (Sep 4, 2008)

well i guess getting fecals done on my collection of tanks is the next step.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

darkspot716 said:


> thank you froggyknight for an actual answer to the question instead of just being met with scorn. But I understand that is just the board and people are passionate about their animals.
> 
> 
> 
> so then how often do you get your tanks tested. keep in mind I only want to know so that i can get it done properly.



It is very easy to get hotheaded when you can't see the whole picture, thats one thing that makes online forums inferior to speaking to people in person. Every one of us just wants what is best for our frogs and we can be very protective and overreact at times.

Many people recommend testing every six months and I would agree with that as long as the frogs are established and holding weight. However if the frog was just added to your collection and is in quarantine I would test monthly. I also test monthly during treatment if parasites are found. To be added to my frog room, new entries need to pass at least two fecals minimum. Granted, this testing schedule is a bit easier for myself than others because I do my own fecal testing, but I still highly recommend it to everyone. 

Honestly, it is impossible to over test your frogs. Do it when ever you can.

John


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I test frogs by fecals at least 2 times 1 month apart, rana virus and chytrid 1 time each during quarantine for moving into a show tank. So far that is the only time. Once they are in a show tank I don't test again unless they appear sick outside of aggression and do not regain weight. If a frog were ever to die I would do fecals, ranavirus, and chytrid on the remaining inhabitants in that vivarium. Note that I only purchase captive breed frogs that appear healthy to my untrained eyes. 

I doubt you will get much feedback from people who do less than a yearly testing as the reaction above keeps them quiet. That said if you want to do it right you have to do it every 6 months. Just like going to the dentist.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

This discussion, I feel should also explain what to do when you get a test that is positive. Panacur for worms but most people don't know dosages etc. I understand everyone knows a vet is your best bet. But let's remember not everyone can afford a visit to their local vet. Also most vets are not educated in PDF treatments themselves. I get f-0 fr frogs tested2x within a couple months. Then about 6-12 months thereafter. Now let's get realistic. Just getting one test is better than none.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Having a positive fecal study, it would be imperative to follow through with a vet. Parasitic load must also be factored into treatment. Quantitatively, how sick the animal is will also affect dosing decision. Also to be considered is supportive therapy while medicating. One must include all aspects of convalescent care into the treatment. Generally speaking, it is dangerous for both the patient and caregiver to handle dosing without the involvement of a medical professional. Those with years of experience and, with successful treatment of sick animals under their belt, may be able to accomplish this with minimal medical guidance. Most will need a Veterinarian, however.

It also must be said that a single negative test could be worse than not testing at all. It has the potential of fostering a false sense of security, and is never diagnostic in determining health. A single fecal exam, at best, lends itself to what the next cause of action should be.





PDFanatic said:


> This discussion, I feel should also explain what to do when you get a test that is positive. Panacur for worms but most people don't know dosages etc. I understand everyone knows a vet is your best bet. But let's remember not everyone can afford a visit to their local vet. Also most vets are not educated in PDF treatments themselves. I get f-0 fr frogs tested2x within a couple months. Then about 6-12 months thereafter. Now let's get realistic. Just getting one test is better than none.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

If you are a newcomer, Please do not read this! If you do. Please understand that none of this is directed at you. I will gladly help ANYONE who is new or otherwise in-experienced and sincerely wants help. I promise!!!





The more I think about this thread I am finding my blood pressure rising at the same pace. What is most depressing is seeing people posting who have dozens of frogs, relatively high post counts, several years membership to this board, self professed 'years of experience' yet, not one person in this thread has voiced even the tiniest speck of understanding how to properly care for their animals. Every dog owner in the free world knows that dogs need vet visits (which usually come with the request to bring a fresh stool sample with you ), and they need regular heartworm treatment. Every cat owner is aware of "feline aids" and Parvovirus. Yet, frog owners who proudly display a list of animals worth more than a couple thousand dollars gripe over a fecal test!!! 

I can (almost) forgive a newcomer as not every vendor gives proper advice. I can allow a slight benefit of doubt to first timers who only came to the forum because their frog became sick but the rest of us???? but the rest of us..... We should be ashamed of ourselves that we perpetuate this level of nonsensical logic! I've even felt bad when some have gotten offended that I would 'dare question their experience'. Not any more. Not by me!!!!

If you have a collection of frogs and have been keeping them for years you have no excuse. You are NOT experts. Just because you've done something for 10, 15, 20 years does not make you experienced. Especially those that did it wrong their first year, were fortunate enough to "never have any problems with the way i do it". Then, went on to repeat the same mistakes for the next dozen years. You qualify mere time as giving experience???? 

And, these same people blast a newcomer because their husbandry does exactly mirror theirs in some obscure way! It's no wonder this forum rarely sees more than 150 members at a time online anymore. Just 8 months ago there were 400 even 500 members online at any given time. Including guests it was over 800. 1200 +/- in December 2013.

I was purposely kind in my post 24 for the one reason I don't like to be seen as mean or an "a$$h0l3". After reading that post I should have known who was full of it. These are innocent animals that NEVER gave consent to be captives and this is how we treat them? Abuse, neglect, etc etc simply because they would rather buy a $500 pair of pumilio than do a $30 preventative test



/end old.me
/RUN aspidites73 v2.0!


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Aspidites somehow I just wouldn't know why your inbox isn't completely full of messages from new members asking for help. All animals in my care have been tested multiple times. All "newbies" have to do is talk to their dog or cat vet and I'm sure they will try to help or direct people to a vet who can help them with exotic animals.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

And, for anyone who doubts the need for periodic fecals and particular husbandry, please see this post. Ironically, it was posted at the same time I was writing the above, and quoted here, post!


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...yptosprodium-fecal-sick-frog.html#post2065778




aspidites73 said:


> If you are a newcomer, Please do not read this! If you do. Please understand that none of this is directed at you. I will gladly help ANYONE who is new or otherwise in-experienced and sincerely wants help. I promise!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Leaf28 (Apr 22, 2013)

How prevalent are worms in CB dart frogs? 
The reason I ask is bc I noticed a minute amount of tiny white 
Worms hanging near my vanzos feces..all I feed is 
Fruit flies. Frogs are eating and appear healthy .
Have a vet appointent on Monday to diagnose.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Leaf28 said:


> How prevalent are worms in CB dart frogs?
> The reason I ask is bc I noticed a minute amount of tiny white
> Worms hanging near my vanzos feces..all I feed is
> Fruit flies. Frogs are eating and appear healthy .
> Have a vet appointent on Monday to diagnose.



Being captive born, and apparently without symptoms speaks volumes about their potential for good health. That being said, you are doing the right thing by taking it to the vet. Probably nothing, possibly nothing, and nothing are very different, indeed. You should do fecals, in my non Vet/MD opinion, at least once a year. Some will suggest 2x/year. That is their and your prerogative.


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## Leaf28 (Apr 22, 2013)

aspidites73 said:


> Being captive born, and apparently without symptoms speaks volumes about their potential for good health. That being said, you are doing the right thing by taking it to the vet. Probably nothing, possibly nothing, and nothing are very different, indeed. You should do fecals, in my non Vet/MD opinion, at least once a year. Some will suggest 2x/year. That is their and your prerogative.



Thanks for the support and feedback .
I will post up results and treatment, if it gets that far .


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## darkspot716 (Sep 4, 2008)

I never said i was an expert. The fact that i am asking should denote that I want to do better. 
Yes, people know about canine and feline husbandry, but amphibian husbandry is a little bit less known. And even if i have been a member of this board fr a number of years doesn't mean that i was actually active that whole time - like the 2 years that i was semi-homeless trying to take care of a whole family, during which time i didnt even have a collection.
I was also operating under the naive thought that if I'm buying all of my frogs from reputable sellers that test all of their animals I should be ok putting them in formerly totally frog free tanks. 

Anyway, since I'm gonna get all of my tanks tested you can drop it. Ok, I fucked up in never having frogs tested for various diseases and pathogens - but I'm doing now. And saying that its BASIC husbandry is far from correct because I don't know a single person anywhere locally that does that. When you go to a pet store they have animals in cages. They sell those animals then put new ones in. they don't test for pathogens and whatnot. So that's what the average hobbyist sees so that's actually whats basic. Collecting fecal samples and swabbing your frogs mouth to send away to a lab in Dallas is FAR from basic. I'm pretty sure that's more advanced than even most dog or cat owners go. Cause I know a LOT of large pet owners that don't go that far.


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

WHat some people tend to forget is that many newcomers don't have the capacities for proper care too...


example:

I am a happy new frog keeper with 4 Azureus froglets living iny my tank.

Oh no! They somehow got ill! What to do now?????

- Take them to the vet? Hmm most vets probably have never dealt with a tiny poison dart frog before...

- oh no! won't the stress of capturing and carrying them around make the illness even worse?

- oh no! So the people on this forum told me to separate all my frogs in order to properly treat them

--> so I need now 4 new temporary tanks and some medicine...
--> and of course I either need to throw away my beautiful looking main tank or rip everything apart and disinfect it.




and all of a sudden a newcomer is stuck with 4 ill froglets, 5 tanks, and lots of medicine which he most likely can't even mix the proper dosage since he would need some special accuracy tools for it.


I'd say this is why many newcomers won't really do any tests, take the animals to the vet an son....


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ya, they were probably bots that got cleaned out. There has never been that many "people" on DB as far as I can tell.
If you've done something for 5, 10, 15 years and are successful that's exactly what experienced means.

I did fecals 3-5 times over 15 years. Got chytrid tests, all negative and never tested for rana but if I had it it never caused problems. Getting fecals done from an inexperienced vet may be just as bad as no fecals at all. Not many vets work with darts. If there is no problems and you've got your collection tested once, I don't see any reason, esp since vets are talking about watching and not treating a lot of parasites. I don't think getting fecals is as imperative to a healthy collection as people imply unless your getting from sketchy importers or people with huge revolving collections that don't test or if you plan on building a large collection from multiple sources. I know many people who had big healthy collections and didn't test. Just make sure you don't transfer anything from tank to tank. Test everything coming in to your collection and quarentine and you should be fine. Nothing is 100% and if these people are bashing you without getting 3-4 fecals in a row, they are no more sure about what's in their collection than you. Remember, at least 3 clean fecals x# of days apart to show they are clean. and if you have a bad vet, your still not there.



aspidites73 said:


> If you are a newcomer, Please do not read this! If you do. Please understand that none of this is directed at you. I will gladly help ANYONE who is new or otherwise in-experienced and sincerely wants help. I promise!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

And your $30 test is a $30 and 2 $25(chytrid and rana). So someone now has 4 $25 frogs and it's $80 for fecals and swabs plus shipping. It's a simple cost/benefit decision. If the frogs cost $25ea and shipping and testing costs the same as the frogs, and you have to do it 3 times to be sure, then you're spending 3 x as much as the frogs to make sure they are ok. Maybe the frogs should be tested before being sent and the price should go up on the frogs if that's what you want done and you're the one selling the frogs? This way you get your wish and take the responsibility on yourself instead of expecting everyone else to be the same as you.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

A bad Vet is still a Doctor. When it comes to health, I'd much rather a bad Vet over an excellent carpenter. The process of doing a fecal exam is quite uniform across all fauna. To properly do a fecal, you need parasitology and microbiology, not a medical degree. A Vet. Tech. can do them. So could you! A half decent microscope and a fistfull of slides, test tubes, and saline is all you deed to do a float study. The problem isn't seeing evidence. The problem comes with interpreting the results.

Experience is not mutually inclusive with success. You could do things wrong for 20 years. While you would still have experience, it wouldn't be worth much.

The main problem I have with the whole discussion on fecals is not with "do or not do". It isn't even cost. It's about taking preventative measures. If only one frog is spared a horrifying death, it is worth it. And, what about not being able to find a good Vet? You don't need a specialist, you need a relationship. As a dog owner, one can notice a problem with their dog, call their regular vet, and pick up Meds on the way home. If there is a persistent problem the Vet trusts you'll bring in the animal. People with even 1 or 2 years experience as a cat keeper can do the same. It is understood that, even the $35 cat you adopted at the pound needs to go see a vet for check-ups. The first one as soon as possible to getting the animal. I am not saying Frog Owners are unique in terms of different hobbies. What I continue to take issue with is that with 50 something frogs, 5,10,15 years of experience, even bad experience, a person should have a long established relationship with a vet. How many among us also has a dog or cat? You shouldn't have a problem getting something as simple as a fecal done, contact your vet!

A final point. The reason to test is not "if it has something" it is "does it have something? If yes then, Does it need treatment?" Everyone among us has Escherichia coli in our gut yet we only medicate for it when there is a related breakdown to the system as a whole. A negative test, at best, is inconclusive. What you want are the positive tests! Success in caring for your animals is obtained by maintaining health. There is no shortage of buried threads here that start with something similar to "Help! Skinny Frog!". People keep asking for proof of a universal negative. You can not prove something does not exist. You can prove that it does, however. After so many years and or so many frogs, it would seem this concept should be obvious. Hence, my and others feelings on this subject. 


Oh, and Bot's they cleaned out? The system's administration under Kyle was far superior to now. If anything, the bots are now here to inflate clicks!!! That is why there are so many more "Guests".







Roadrunner said:


> Ya, they were probably bots that got cleaned out. There has never been that many "people" on DB as far as I can tell.
> If you've done something for 5, 10, 15 years and are successful that's exactly what experienced means.
> 
> I did fecals 3-5 times over 15 years. Got chytrid tests, all negative and never tested for rana but if I had it it never caused problems. Getting fecals done from an inexperienced vet may be just as bad as no fecals at all. Not many vets work with darts. If there is no problems and you've got your collection tested once, I don't see any reason, esp since vets are talking about watching and not treating a lot of parasites. I don't think getting fecals is as imperative to a healthy collection as people imply unless your getting from sketchy importers or people with huge revolving collections that don't test or if you plan on building a large collection from multiple sources. I know many people who had big healthy collections and didn't test. Just make sure you don't transfer anything from tank to tank. Test everything coming in to your collection and quarentine and you should be fine. Nothing is 100% and if these people are bashing you without getting 3-4 fecals in a row, they are no more sure about what's in their collection than you. Remember, at least 3 clean fecals x# of days apart to show they are clean. and if you have a bad vet, your still not there.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Cats and dogs are a bit different don't you think? Lots and lots of people have them, the way parasites act with them is well known and the parasites they get are well known and seen often. Most vets have never seen a dart frog let alone know what would be commensuel or what to look for with symptoms presented, nor how to dose one. You don't pay for common knowledge with cats and dogs, I don't know many vets who are going to do lots of research and collaboration rather than just say they saw eggs of something and here's some panacur, pry the frogs mouth open and put in a 1/4 cc or something of that sort or I didn't see anything and it's husbandry related or something else not found in a fecal. Comparing darts to cats and dogs isn't really hitting the mark with this one. A dog or cat costs a bit more and is much more of a responsibility as per litter boxes, exercise, food a couple times a day, etc. cleaning up poop etc. Plus they are a social animal as opposed to a frog in a "wild habitat in a box". let alone deciding on whether to treat or not with darts is different. Some vets say try to keep everything clean and some say sit and watch and we'll do something if there is a problem seen. Just changing out your viv can let a frog with a heavy parasite load shed them and not get superinfected or reinfected as quickly. I didn't get fecals for the first, who knows how many years, and they did quite fine since I changed tanks often.

Let alone that cleaning a frog of something like hookworm is much harder than most others. They can encyst in the muscle tissue and be reinfected later. And if you do find hookworm and you try to clear them you'd have to have them in quarantine for enough time to get 3 clean fecals and then you set up a new tank and they get them back after a year. Are you going to go thru the whole process again? A dog or cat doesn't reinfect themselves by pooping where they eat.

Personally, I had a local vet who said he couldn't find anything in the fecals and another person got frogs in the same grow out tanks and got fecals from another vet who found hook in some and lungworm in some. How much should you spend and who should you trust if a third vet got even different results?

Maybe that's why there is so much of a group that only gets fecals if there is a problem. Maybe it's under vets advice to only treat if it's a problem, if so, why get fecals on everything in your collection? I mean it's smart if your sending frogs all over the country but I don't think it's mandatory in every situation. If your just building a personal collection. Either way I don't think it's right to expect so much or get so bent out of shape if people don't do things the way you think they should be done. 

But hey, it's your time and blood pressure.

And a lot of problems are from stress and lack of vit and minerals from what I remember. I don't remember very many skinny frogs that came out positive for a parasite. I do remember a lot of one frog in the bunch is skinny and that would be more related to stress than any parasite considering if one has it they all do. Maybe I'm wrong.

And maybe there are less people here because they are sick of getting yelled at.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

This thread is on testing fecals. I have never suggested that it is easy to get treatment. I respect that as a whole different problem. Testing has, and always will be my point. Any vet can do a fecal. Like I have already stated. All this: what if it has this or what if it has that, then what? Continue questioning redundantly? TEST! Then, at least, you can claim to be informed. As generic as I can suggest with the word: you! In stead of waiting until you MUST take it to a Vet. Wouldn't it make sense to apply an ounce of prevention before needing a pound of cure?


EDIT: And, "I've done it this way for 10 to the x power years without a problem" does not mean you will never have a problem. If it's happened before, it will happen again. The longer it goes without happening, the more likely it becomes that it will.

EDIT #2: It would seem, as far as this discussion is concerned, the only difference between dog/cat owners and frog owners it that the former does preventative care.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Not really. Which vet is doing the fecal? The one that found nothing or found something? If you take it to the vet that found nothing(or maybe something as we've recently seen in the crypto thread) you can't claim being informed and if you didn't get a negative on 3 spaced apart, you still can't claim being informed.

What do you mean the longer it goes without happening the more likely that it will? you realize people go there whole collection life without having problems with parasites. They may have them but don't have problems. There's no law that says they will become a problem.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> Let alone that cleaning a frog of something like hookworm is much harder than most others. They can encyst in the muscle tissue and be reinfected later.


Wait, What?? do you have a reference for this? I can't find anything in the literature on this topic. 



Roadrunner said:


> Personally, I had a local vet who said he couldn't find anything in the fecals and another person got frogs in the same grow out tanks and got fecals from another vet who found hook in some and lungworm in some. How much should you spend and who should you trust if a third vet got even different results?


I'm not sure why this is an issue. Infected animals don't always shed ova or larvae. The length of time before collecting the fecal can impact detection.. as can where it is collected. A fecal collected from a contaminated substrate can have loads of free living worms in it causing it difficult to determine if there is an actual infection. This is why vets want the freshest fecal possible (you don't collect a sample from your dog after it has sat in the yard for a couple of days...) from a clean substrate. 

It can take months or even years to get a positive fecal from an infected animal if the infected animal is managing the infection. This doesn't mean that fecals shouldn't be done as some parasites are able to build into super infections where the result of the infection plus some stressor results in loss of the animals. The main ones to watch out for in this context are hookworms and Rhabdiform nematodes. 

With respect to frogs that are showing signs of weight loss but the fecals are clear, I would place a bet on a coccidian infection as not detecting coccidia in the fecal despite signs of disease is not uncommon. This could easily be mistaken for stress or competition from other frogs and removing the frog from the group could allow the immune system to begin to control the infection without ever resolving the issue.... 


some comments 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

You'll never learn to stop asking me for references are you? I'm going to start asking you for your real life experiences to correlate what you read.

It's thru my and others experience. Even though they may be wrong at times I actually listen to others and don't grill them for references.

Found this in 2 sec. using google
http://bakerinstitute.vet.cornell.edu/animalhealth/page.php?id=1097
Likely the most commonly recognized route of infection, larvae often enter a new host when an animal ingests infested water, vegetation, or even soil. The majority of larvae simply pass through the stomach and settle in the digestive system where they will mature. Some however may migrate to muscles where they will encyst and stay dormant until hormone changes often associated with pregnancy reanimate them and they become viable once more, ready to infect a litter of puppies.

It's about puppies but I have read about it in pigs and heard verbally from a vet.

And your second post proves my point.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

And with coccidians they just came out with something that may "cure" them. Before that they had it and will continue to. getting it under control was the best you could do. Trying to get rid of all parasites just makes for a weak population that can no longer handle parasites. The environment shapes the genetics of the animals. Without animals dying from stressors having parasites take over you can not have survival of the fittest.

My diagnoses, if there are others in the tank not having a problem is that the skinny frog is the weakest of the bunch. If you want healthy animals, giving them stressors and such is what's needed to keep the population "strong".

And as i said earlier, if you change out tanks they can shed parasites and they won't build to superinfection.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

aspidites73 said:


> EDIT #2: It would seem, as far as this discussion is concerned, the only difference between dog/cat owners and frog owners it that the former does preventative care.



True, but of course it's not because dog or cat owners are more responsible than frog owners. Do you agree?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I didn't see edit #2. 

Is there a heartworm like drug to prevent hook and lungworm? If there isn't then there isn't preventative care able to be taken. Unless your talking about people who panacur once a year. They are practicing preventative just like giving a dog a heartworm pill(well similarly). If they have worms then you are caring for you pet when you get rid of them, not doing preventative. you are also caring for them when you switch tanks so the infection doesn't build since lung and hookworm aren't like heartworm. Death is not a given.
But if you wash your hands before going from tank to tank your practicing preventative care. 
I don't think that statement is true.


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## OrangeTyrant (May 12, 2011)

Heart worm pills aren't preventative either, you're just killing the larval stage before it matures into the harmful adult heart worm. You're killing any larval heart worm your dog or cat has picked up in the last 30 days. They're sometimes called heart worm preventatives only because the drug prevents maturation, but it's a misnomer really, and is still a dewormer. 

Also, this continued talk of dogs vs. frogs is very much apples to oranges as the drugs and their dosages, protocols, health, basic biology, and even owner demographic is so very different.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Preventative care IS TESTING! You keep modifying the topic to fit a different argument. You're suggesting prophylactic care. ONCE AGAIN: Testing testing testing testing! that is what this thread is about. That is my peeve. People do not do test. Testing is responsible. With testing you may stop a problem before it happens. If you don't test you will never prevent, possibly even detect in time, disease. 

Your logic is: if we can't treat some things or, some things may not lead to death or, it's hard to find a qualified Vet or, the vet may not see anything anyway or...infinitum ad nauseum. Then: we shouldn't test at all? This makes no sense whatsoever.





Roadrunner said:


> I didn't see edit #2.
> 
> Is there a heartworm like drug to prevent hook and lungworm? If there isn't then there isn't preventative care able to be taken. Unless your talking about people who panacur once a year. They are practicing preventative just like giving a dog a heartworm pill(well similarly). If they have worms then you are caring for you pet when you get rid of them, not doing preventative. you are also caring for them when you switch tanks so the infection doesn't build since lung and hookworm aren't like heartworm. Death is not a given.
> But if you wash your hands before going from tank to tank your practicing preventative care.
> I don't think that statement is true.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

NO! dogs vs. frogs makes complete sense when used in the context I originally suggested. You can not win a discussion by changing its premise to something foolish, then saying: "see it's foolish"!

This is about dog owners testing and doing preventative care and frog owners (some of which are the same dog owners i'm referring to) do not. Dog poop, frog poop, human poop, bat poop, goat poop doesn't make a difference. It's all poop!!! I want people to test it in frogs to HELP slow the spread of disease instead of purpetuate it.



OrangeTyrant said:


> Heart worm pills aren't preventative either, you're just killing the larval stage before it matures into the harmful adult heart worm. You're killing any larval heart worm your dog or cat has picked up in the last 30 days. They're sometimes called heart worm preventatives only because the drug prevents maturation, but it's a misnomer really, and is still a dewormer.
> 
> Also, this continued talk of dogs vs. frogs is very much apples to oranges as the drugs and their dosages, protocols, health, basic biology, and even owner demographic is so very different.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

People: Preventative care is NOT treatment without testing. That is Prophylactic care. Preventative care is when you go for a test. Any test that will help slow the spread of disease!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> You'll never learn to stop asking me for references are you? I'm going to start asking you for your real life experiences to correlate what you read.


I asked because it was the first time I had heard about it and it turns out I was right to ask for the reference. 



Roadrunner said:


> t's about puppies but I have read about it in pigs and heard verbally from a vet.


So why do you think that dogs and pigs are a better model for what hookworms do in the frogs than say cats? The reason I flagged your statement earlier is because encystment in muscle tissue for later infection is not universal. For example, it does not happen in felids and unlike dogs, you don't get this happening and kittens are not infected before birth. So to go and state that this occurs in frogs as a fact is incorrect and not supported by anything in the literature. This is why anecdotal information doesn't trump the literature. 
As I've said before and I'll say it again, when I see a behavior or occurrence in animals, I look to see if it is documented in the literature before I assign an interpretation to the observation.... That way, I'm able to correctly interpret what I've observed in the correct context and by doing so avoid letting my imagination get the best of me. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

And I'm trying to point out that yelling at someone for not testing is uncalled for. you can't detect something if it's not detectable(being shed). Considering it's not that easy to find parasites and they may not harm the animal you're trying to say that fecals are preventative and I don't think they are necessarily. That is what's being discussed. Your the one who made it look like fecals are mandatory and will always help. I'm saying that's not necessarily the case. If you only get one and it's clear it can be very misleading. Not to mention pcr for rana and chytrid are different and fecals don't cover possibly the 2 most detrimental. So you're saying you have to be rich and be in contact with a vet and a lab to care for dart frogs? Test, test, test, costs money. Maybe they shouldn't be $20ea if they require that much care.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

That's worked so well for you in the past. how many things have you misinterpretted or have found that a study you cite is out of date? Or the literature just isn't there yet. And that's probably why your wrong in some of your interpretations. Maybe vets already know this and haven't written a paper. It does conform with my experiences for clearing hookworm as opposed to lungworm, and others. Sorry.

So I take it you've necropsied thousands of frogs and never found hookworm where it shouldn't be?

It's kinda like when you said some coccidia are worse then other and then backtracked on that. When are you going to realize science doesn't have all the answers and you may be wrong? Talking to a vet who has seen hooks in a lot of tissue it's not supposed to be in can sometimes give you personal info that isn't out there. you even said that coccidia can't be cured only suppressed and that may be wrong also?


Ed said:


> I asked because it was the first time I had heard about it and it turns out I was right to ask for the reference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

OrangeTyrant said:


> Also, this continued talk of dogs vs. frogs is very much apples to oranges as the drugs and their dosages, protocols, health, basic biology, and even owner demographic is so very different.


We really need to say "kind of" to this statement. The reason is that much of the nutrition and treatments in frogs and other herps was adapted from the small animal medical practices as there are few if any targeted drugs for treating herps being developed through research as opposed to adapting developed drugs for the frogs. 
For example, the use of fenbendazole in frogs was originally based on the dosages and effects it had is small animals and when it worked it was written up in a journal and became more widespread in practice. 
This is similar for the nutritional needs of frogs was understood. For example, the need for vitamin A to D3 and E are effectively the same as that determined for domestic animals and fit into the 10:1:0.1 vitamin A to D3 to E ratios found in domestic species. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> Or the literature just isn't there yet.


Which means that you can't make the claim as factual since there is no evidence that it happens in that way. As I noted how do you know that puppies are the correct model as opposed to felids? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> And I'm trying to point out that yelling at someone for not testing is uncalled for. you can't detect something if it's not detectable(being shed). Considering it's not that easy to find parasites and they may not harm the animal you're trying to say that fecals are preventative and I don't think they are necessarily. That is what's being discussed. Your the one who made it look like fecals are mandatory and will always help. I'm saying that's not necessarily the case. If you only get one and it's clear it can be very misleading. Not to mention pcr for rana and chytrid are different and fecals don't cover possibly the 2 most detrimental. So you're saying you have to be rich and be in contact with a vet and a lab to care for dart frogs? Test, test, test, costs money. Maybe they shouldn't be $20ea if they require that much care.




I have to admit I was surprised to see you making the argument that inexpensive animals are disposable as the testing would cost more than the animals in question were worth... 

The argument here is really what is optimal for the care of the animals in question. The optimal care is that checking to make sure the frogs aren't actively shedding parasites on some schedule whether it is annually or biannually gives a person the ability to get ahead of the problem. 

Actually I would argue that annual testing for chytrid and ranavirus are not required provided you are not adding new animals to the individual's collection and are not collecting or using fresh materials from outside. If you practice proper quarantine where the new frogs are housed in a seperate location away from the established collection then testing of the new animals should be sufficient. 

If you and your vet know what is in the collection even though it's not currently causing symptoms of disease then if something does start to sicken a frog then the keeper and the vet are ahead of the game as opposed to trying to play catch up. 
people often forget that they don't need a fecal from each individual animal when doing surveillance program they just need one fecal from that cage. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

And this conversation is over for me. You haven't changed one bit. I've learned arguing with you is a waste of my time and I have better things to do. I've said my peace.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

people can take it or leave it. I'm not as obsessive as you to need people to believe me. I put info out there to help people make decisions, nothing more nothing less. You can't prove your right either. Have a nice day!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> That's worked so well for you in the past. how many things have you misinterpretted or have found that a study you cite is out of date? Or the literature just isn't there yet. And that's probably why your wrong in some of your interpretations. Maybe vets already know this and haven't written a paper. It does conform with my experiences for clearing hookworm as opposed to lungworm, and others. Sorry.


I've misinterpreted more than a few things but because I tend to check whether or not the observation is valid before I speak, I tend to also correct it before I shoot off my mouth. As I've noted more than once in the past, I also modify my position as more data becomes available in the literature... for example, beta carotene usage in anurans.... 

You keep having an issue with studies and understanding the validity.... since your again arguing anecdotal versus documented. 

People often forget that the age of a study doesn't mean that it is out of date unless there is new data that provides either further clarity or disproves the original study. So any claims in this respect are without merit. 



Roadrunner said:


> So I take it you've necropsied thousands of frogs and never found hookworm where it shouldn't be?


I'm not the one making claims about what it does in frogs... you are making a statement as if it is a known fact using dogs to support the argument while ignoring the fact that that hookworm doesn't behave that way in all animals. I'm not the one who has to supply proof that it happens that way in frogs, you need to document your position. 




Roadrunner said:


> It's kinda like when you said some coccidia are worse then other and then backtracked on that.


I think you need to recheck your memory....... 



Roadrunner said:


> When are you going to realize science doesn't have all the answers and you may be wrong? Talking to a vet who has seen hooks in a lot of tissue it's not supposed to be in can sometimes give you personal info that isn't out there. you even said that coccidia can't be cured only suppressed and that may be wrong also?


And here we have you ignoring that hookworm larvae migrate through the tissues to either enter the lungs or the digestive tract. *This is very different than making the claim that it encysts in the tissues only to reactivate and become infectious later on...*. 

And for the coccidia infection... as I've repeatedly said, the current common treatments don't clear the infections and the only way to be sure a frog doesn't have coccidia is to necropsy it.. however once the information on ponazuril became available, I've repeatedly noted that it might be possible to clear the infections but that possibility is based on the clearance of coccidians from bearded dragons and we don't have a study in frogs yet... So you should check your memory again.... 

As I've repeatedly stated and noted in the past, if new data comes out that is supported via a study, I'm open to changing my position...


Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> people can take it or leave it. I'm not as obsessive as you to need people to believe me. I put info out there to help people make decisions, nothing more nothing less. You can't prove your right either. Have a nice day!



I don't have to prove I'm right. I'm not the person presenting unsupported potentially bad information as a absolute fact. I called your "fact" into question and you responded with an argument based on dogs. I asked what proof you had that it followed the dog model versus the cat. You then made accusations that science doesn't have the answers without providing any proof that your claim is factual... 

The only reason I provide proof of my thoughts whenever possible is because there is too much bad information and myths wandering around in this hobby.... 


Some comments 

Ed


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Roadrunner said:


> Maybe they shouldn't be $20ea if they require that much care.



So, your arguments rests on the fact that because they are $20 they are not worthy of care? Please tell us then. At what cost does it become important? Clearly, as far as you're concerned, life is worth less than a $20. IS the value of a life universal in your book, or is a $50 dollar bird different to a $50 spider?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Look up the coccidia thread, or treatment for parasites, or one of those threads, I posted your statements there in the past where you flip flopped. You also told me it was easy for insects to carry in chytrid. Now you're saying you don't have to test for it if no new animals come in? Youre all over the place. So now you want me to have the vet come in and document what he said on this site to satisfy your obsession. Your ridiculous. And that's why I'll stop the conversation every time you jump in. What makes you think your entitled to have people dig up the "proof" for you when they don't get their info from the "literature". 

And ask the people who buy the disposable pets how much they'd have to pay to make it worthwhile for them to do fecals on an animal? But don't discount it till you've found out whether it's the disposable price that keeps people from testing.


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## dam630 (Dec 11, 2009)

Puppies and kittens can usually be obtained for free, yet we spend hundreds of dollars getting them checked out at the vet, updating vaccinations and so forth.
So, why not do the same thing for a frog?
It seems to me that the average cost per vivarium (up to 4 frogs) is roughly $50 to get tested for chytrid and ranavirus. That seems like a pretty fair cost for peace of mind and it is something that should be thought of prior to the purchase of a frog. I see people spending hundreds of $$$ on even the most simple vivariums and then not want to go the extra mile and spend $50 to ensure there is no spread of disease. That just does not make sense to me. 
If you can not afford to setup a proper living environment, purchase the proper foods and supplements, purchase the frog AND get it tested then may I suggest you get a puppy or kitten instead.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> Look up the coccidia thread, or treatment for parasites, or one of those threads, I posted your statements there in the past where you flip flopped.


Nice attempt at deflection.... 
So lets look at your supposed proof.... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...ase-transmission-split-mixing-discussion.html 
Your claiming I flip flopped but as I've repeatedly noted over the years that as the science changes, I evaluate whether or not to move with it.... So your claim that I'm flip flopping has no value. If you note in the thread where your claiming, I linked in the science that demonstrated that change.... and you instead were the person who was making claims and refusing to read the science... not quite the smoking gun you think it is...... As I said before you need to check your memory as your not recalling things correctly... 




Roadrunner said:


> You also told me it was easy for insects to carry in chytrid. Now you're saying you don't have to test for it if no new animals come in? Youre all over the place.


Dude, really? 
Actually I'm not all over the place, you are as you continually misinterprete my points.... As I noted in the past and in multiple threads, people should be working on keeping cross contamination down between enclosures. If all of the animals in the collection are free of chytrid and the cages are tight, then why would you have to test unless you have new animals come into the collection? 




Roadrunner said:


> So now you want me to have the vet come in and document what he said on this site to satisfy your obsession. Your ridiculous. And that's why I'll stop the conversation every time you jump in. What makes you think your entitled to have people dig up the "proof" for you when they don't get their info from the "literature".


Aaron, you made a claim and presented it as a fact and then backed it up with bad science. As I've noted, what makes you think that hookworms in frogs don't act like they do in cats? 
I had to laugh at your attack at my right to call people out when they post bad information... I think it has something to do with an amendment... something like the first amendment just like you have the right to put bad information out there and misquote things, I have the right to challenge it.... 

I called the fact into question and instead of being able to defend it, you start trying to deflect the point and turn the argument on me... I can't help it if your throwing bad information out as fact. 



Roadrunner said:


> And ask the people who buy the disposable pets how much they'd have to pay to make it worthwhile for them to do fecals on an animal? But don't discount it till you've found out whether it's the disposable price that keeps people from testing.


As you clearly noted in your post, your the one labeling them disposable. Not me or the majority of other people in the thread so don't start trying to push it off on someone else. 

As for your claim to not want to participate in threads when I stop by, you've said that in multiple threads and here we are again.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Sorry, flip flopped was wrong wording. You were wrong because you weren't up on the science. the paper you changed on came out before you changed your mind. Your not a scientist or a teacher or a Phd. I don't think you have the background to judge. Your not "in any field" Just because you say that they act like cats instead of dogs holds no bearing. you have no proof,it's my word(and a vets) against yours and you turn it into a witchhunt. That's what I mean about you thinking your the ultimate truth because you can cite one or 2 papers on a subject. anyone can be a dick according to the first ammendment, that's a given.

I wouldn't ask a vet to come here to satisfy a stupid argument, which you missed the point on that hookworm are harder to get rid of than lungworm and offtracked the whole conversation so you could "look" smart on a minute part of teh statement that didn't even matter. Whether or not they encyst they ARE harder to get rid of than lungworm. You picked on it for nothing other than to "look" smart. you still can't prove they don't encyst.

I don't know why but you had said insects can make it into enclosures from outside and carry chytrid and coccidia. now your saying if the tanks are sealed it's allright?

That last post was for the other person who called out on price. And I'm not labeling them disposable, obviously the people not doing fecals on $20 animals are.

But hey I can't help that your crazy and have some problem every time I post and hide behind some "not in the literature" excuse. it's so easy to see. there are all sorts of halftruths and mistruths on this site(some by you at the time) but you seem to stick with a few select people like flies on shit. you don't see me ever following you around here, even though I don't agree with your 1 reference paper truths. Your an internet bully and hide behind "defending truth". Well that was 5 minutes I'll never get back. Not saying your always wrong or don't help but you seem to have a king of the hill attitude around here. Why couldn't you just say it isn't in the literature that they do but I guess everything out there isn't in the literature and let people decide, why do you have to make it an all or none win?

in other words what's you problem with me. Everyone knows I post from past experience and talking with hobbyists and vets. I never cite science papers or say it's other than my observation or second hand knowledge. If you don't believe me look it up for yourself but don't try and get me to play the same game as yours because it's not the ultimate truth you argue it is.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Maybe that's the problem, you think I present things as fact. you know I don't read many scientific papers, at least on frogs, and I relate my experience and don't cite papers for it. Don't think of it so much as fact as observation by someone doing this for 17 years. I'm no threat to you Ed just the opposite side of the coin. I go by observation and experience and you go by reading papers. But if youre going to continue to not let anything I post stand unless I cite papers for it i'll just leave and you can run the site how you want?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ya know I forgot about this one.
The last argument we had you jumped on the fact that my dad died because of gov't and corporate neglect and said I was irrational because of it. Now your a psychologist too? You couldn't help yourself but to attack a personal post and then have the gaul to say I'd never post something like that, proving u know what it would incite if hit on. Purposefully pushing buttons and sidetracking the thread about me from a sidepost about my experience. Although there are millions of reasons not to trust the gov't whether or not that was one of them. Missing the point just to push my buttons. You did it earlier in the thread when you were mistaken thinking I posted what I quoted from JP. Then you didn't ask JP the same question you asked when you though I stated it. It's see thru Ed.

And once again I'm out for a while. That's right, there was a reason I read and didn't post. Sometimes you have to make mistakes to remember why you do what you do. Thanks for the reminder Ed.


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

is there currently a lab that someone can send their fecals? i just called a local vet who sees reptiles and such and they will not do a fecal without an $89 exam first. i would like a more affordable option if possible. i don't have my frogs yet, but i want to be ready.


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## dam630 (Dec 11, 2009)

http://www.vetdna.com/application/forms/reptilesubmissionform.pdf


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## darkspot716 (Sep 4, 2008)

wow. I feel like im watching the scenen in anchorman with all the newscasters fighting. Anyways if I wasnt an expert before Im closer now after reading and absorbing all of this information. Ill be testing all all of my tanks that have inhabitants by means of swab...if anybody still cares

but thanks for the loads of information in this very NON basic husbandry thread


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

dam630 said:


> http://www.vetdna.com/application/forms/reptilesubmissionform.pdf


On this form, what should i request?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I don't believe the point was ever right or wrong. I do not require anything from anyone. Further, I am not surprised there are a majority who do not test. What does surprise me is the percentage of those people who assumed they were doing sufficient work to be considered effective despite never checking themselves. It is illogical to think something must equal better than nothing. In some cases, something way well be worse! Not to mention, the dangers that exists when this is taken as a false sense of security. Nothing can be deduced from saying "free" of anything. Frog, or otherwise. One can only be as safe as they are knowledgeable. Who care's if something is "Protozoa Free" and "100% natural" if it carries Ebola?



darkspot716 said:


> wow. I feel like im watching the scenen in anchorman with all the newscasters fighting. Anyways if I wasnt an expert before Im closer now after reading and absorbing all of this information. Ill be testing all all of my tanks that have inhabitants by means of swab...if anybody still cares
> 
> but thanks for the loads of information in this very NON basic husbandry thread


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## dam630 (Dec 11, 2009)

ColleenT said:


> On this form, what should i request?


Chytrid Fungus (B.dendorobatidis)

and

Ranavirus


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

and OmgRotflmmfao @ H.s. ssp ballandchainus



dam630 said:


> Chytrid Fungus (B.dendorobatidis)
> 
> and
> 
> Ranavirus


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## dam630 (Dec 11, 2009)

She is actually in your neck of the woods at the moment...
visiting her mom in Bonita Springs (just south of Ft.Myers)


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

dam630 said:


> Chytrid Fungus (B.dendorobatidis)
> 
> and
> 
> Ranavirus


thank you, but i meant for the fecal? is it parasites they look for?


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

The link to the lab that was provided is for genetic screening for BD and RV - they will screen fecal samples, but swabbing is the preferred method for BD/RV (there are different methods for optimally swabbing for each). 

http://www.sandiegozooglobal.org/images/uploads/Chytrid_Sampling_Guidelines_2013.pdf

http://www.sandiegozooglobal.org/images/uploads/Ranavirus_Sampling_Guidelines.pdf

For fecal screening you will need to use a vet and submit samples for a float. I'll PM you the name of a vet I use. Good luck and welcome to the hobby!


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

when buying frogs or tadpoles do you ask the breeder if parent frogs had been tested for anything? does it not matter until you get the frog home?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ColleenT said:


> when buying frogs or tadpoles do you ask the breeder if parent frogs had been tested for anything? does it not matter until you get the frog home?


Hi Colleen,

It really doesn't matter if the breeder tests or not as you should quarantine and test all new additions. One of the reasons you should quarantine is because a negative fecal or fecals tells you little or nothing about the parasite load of the frog(s). All it tells you is that nothing was detected at the time of the test or tests. A frog with a competent immune system could have multiple parasites but not shed any of for significant periods of time. For some like coccidians, traditional treatments may not clear the infection, just put the frog in remission with the infection being documented at necropsy through histopathology. This is why it isn't important if the breeder does fecal checks or not... even if they do checks on a regular basis, it is not an indication that the frogs do not have parasites or can skip quarantine. 

The reason the vets want to see the frogs at the time of fecal testing is so they can assess the condition of the frog. This can be important for example, if the fecal isn't fresh enough problems could be missed by just examining the fecal and not the frog and the fecal. For example, frogs could lose weight and have issues due to an overgrowth of normal gut protozoans which can cause inflammation of the gut tissues impacting nutrient uptake and causing loss of appetite. This is easily treated but if the fecal has sat for any length of time, the protozoans can die off or encyst. It is also not uncommon for a frog with an active coccidian infection to not show coccidia in the fecal. The diagnosis maybe made due to the presence of blood cells and a lack of other parasites as well as the symptoms the frog may be showing. 
As a further issue, in many states, the vet has to have formed a relationship with the client before prescribing the medications for the animal. The easiest way this is accomplished is by having the animal brought to the clinic. If you ask, you maybe able to bring multiple animals in for the same visit fee which in turn results in a less expensive overall bill. 

One of the things that is often overlooked is that any competent vet tech that routinely reads fecals will be able to determine if there are parasites in the fecal samples. They are used to seeing things like nematode eggs and larvae.. or hookworm eggs and larvae or coccidians... in the stool and have a good idea what should and should not be present.... In these cases a vet that is willing to work with you on the testing and the treatment goes a long way towards better care as opposed to mailing or sending off fecal samples... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

It doesn't tell you nothing if the breeder gets a negative test, it tells you they didn't manifest an infection at the time. And contrary to what some think that is definitely something. I find it logically messed up that people seem to think that hobbyist should test every 6 months but the same hobbyist should not be asking their breeder if they have tested. If hobbyist are suppose to test every 6 months then they should ask the breeder and always get an answer right? Because the breeder is testing every 6 months as well right? And at the very least you have learned if the breeder takes care of the frogs to the level you expect of yourself. You also have 1 more point of data on top of any testing you will do yourself.


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

i have recently been reading and as i understand it, you want to keep the parasites from invading your vivarium, or you would have to rip it down completely and clean with bleach water to get rid of all parasites. So you need to get rid of all parasites while frogs are in QT.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Colleen,



ColleenT said:


> i have recently been reading and as i understand it, you want to keep the parasites from invading your vivarium, or you would have to rip it down completely and clean with bleach water to get rid of all parasites. So you need to get rid of all parasites while frogs are in QT.


This depends on the parasite in question. Some parasites like Rhabdiform nematodes can persist in the enclosure pretty much permanently so these parasites you either want to deal with before they go into the enclosure. 

Others depending on the recommendation of your vet may be to simply monitor and deal with if there is a problem. For example, some kinds of parasites that require more than one host. If the host to vector it to the frogs is absent then the infection is going to be under control as long as it isn't causing symptoms in the animal in question. In the latter cases, it can actually be more harmful to the animal when attempting to clear the infection than it is to monitor it until it causes symptoms. 

This post by one of the big league amphibian specialist vets is a good read... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...5-regular-treatment-parasites.html#post298624 
(It's a shame he passed away not too long ago) and it indicates the direction some of the more cutting edge vets are moving/have moved. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pubfiction said:


> It doesn't tell you nothing if the breeder gets a negative test, it tells you they didn't manifest an infection at the time. And contrary to what some think that is definitely something.


Like what? All it tells you is that there wasn't anything detected in that fecal which depending on how the fecal was collected and then treated before reading could be totally valueless as a data point. All it tells you is that nothing was detected at that time. 



Pubfiction said:


> I find it logically messed up that people seem to think that hobbyist should test every 6 months but the same hobbyist should not be asking their breeder if they have tested.


So you find it a problem that the optimal care suggestions are to test but that the results of one or more of those tests should not be used to determine the presence or absence of parasites in frogs that are being sold? This is despite the documentation that a negative fecal or fecals does not mean that the animal in question is free of parasites that can be passed via the digestive tract? 




Pubfiction said:


> If hobbyist are suppose to test every 6 months then they should ask the breeder and always get an answer right? Because the breeder is testing every 6 months as well right? And at the very least you have learned if the breeder takes care of the frogs to the level you expect of yourself. You also have 1 more point of data on top of any testing you will do yourself.


No, its clear you either don't understand or accept or both the reason behind why a person should check their own collection as opposed to using whether or not a breeder has ever detected in their tests as a "test". Even if it is positive then it doesn't mean that the froglets are/were infected with the parasite(s). Some parasites cannot vector vertically and the physiology of the tadpole is not conducive to the presence/survival of all parasites. For example some tadpoles infected with certain pinworm species expel all of those worms at metamorphosis while the digestive tract is undergoing the changes associated with metamorphosis..... so if the person had good husbandry practices does it matter if the frogs were infected with a parasite that requires more than one host to complete the life cycle before being infectious to the frog or can only infect either larval or adult life stages (but not both) of the frogs? 

Whether the breeder had/did not have a parasite show up in a fecal or fecals should not be used as an indication for quarantine (and this is before we get to routine fecals to check for parasites post quarantine). Regardless people should check and monitor their animals. as it can prevent larger issues down the road. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

Ed said:


> Hi Colleen,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


isn't that what i just said? to get rid of the frog's parasites while it is in QT and that way the enclosure is not infested?


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

ColleenT said:


> isn't that what i just said? to get rid of the frog's parasites while it is in QT and that way the enclosure is not infested?


For the most part, yes that is what you said. Ed elaborated on the point, but also brought up the importance of knowing when to treat. Sometimes treatment can be much more harmful than helpful. 

Always listen to your vet's advise as they are the experts.

John


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

yes, i agree. i never said anything about not using a vet.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

ColleenT said:


> yes, i agree. i never said anything about not using a vet.


I know, It was more of a reminder to everyone

John


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