# we should start a breeding program for frogs from Ecuador...



## yellow dart frog man (Mar 8, 2011)

Has anyone ever thought about starting a big conservation program for frogs from Ecuador. I think we should because Over 45% of the animals there are becoming endangered or Critically Endangered. I mean each member of the group could own one breeding pair of frogs from Ecuador, and each member will have a different species. Then we could ship all the frogs to someone in Ecuador and he could release them in the wild. I think this is a good idea. What do you all Think???


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

i think half the frogs imported will die and people are untrustworthy and would not give the frogs back and would sell them.... in my opinion though there always are some honest people though.


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## zach77 (Feb 8, 2012)

Wikiri Selva Viva - Living Forest


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

On top of it, those frogs are not going to be suitable for release into the wild... the hobby does not meet the criteria to produce frogs for release... see the whole discussion starting here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...e-bred-conservation-efforts-2.html#post576511 

Some comments 

Ed


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

kind of what ed said. the problem with releasing captive is even though you think you are doing right you might be introducing a new strain of desease that could make the frog you are saving exstinct. 
sorry for the mispellings need spell check on this forum


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

I get spell check on here. ??? anyways yeah, conservation in Equador is already happening with WIKIRI. What you want to do is ambitious, but the frogs we keep could introduce new diseases to areas not exposed, which opens up a whole new can of worms.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

To add to what has already been said, you could still form a group that works with Ecuadorian species for the purpose of keeping viable populations of them in captivity. You could use ASN to track everything, and still keep your idea of everyone in the group being in charge of a species. This would be a good idea to ensure Wikiri imports are managed properly.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

pa.walt said:


> sorry for the misspellings need spell check on this forum


Sorry for the hijack, but this forum does not need a spell checker... you need a browser addon. 

For Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/spell-checker/

For Chrome: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/spell-checker-for-chrome/jfpdnkkdgghlpdgldicfgnnnkhdfhocg

For Safari: Apple - Safari - Learn about the features available in Safari.

For Internet Explorer: ieSpell - Spell Checker add-on for Internet Explorer


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

JPccusa said:


> Sorry for the hijack, but this forum does not need a spell checker... you need a browser addon.
> 
> For Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/spell-checker/
> 
> ...


when i am on dart den there is a spell checker icon. here i have never seen something like that. thanks for the info


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## Noel Calvert (Jan 8, 2013)

pa.walt said:


> kind of what ed said. the problem with releasing captive is even though you think you are doing right you might be introducing a new strain of disease that could make the frog you are saving extinct.
> sorry for the misspellings need spell check on this forum


1: What diseases are you speaking of? 
2: Are there treatments for them in captivity? 
3: Could breeding pairs not be certified disease free through quarantine & treatment procedures prior to introduction into a conservation breeding program? If not, clear & specific reasons why not would be appreciated.


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## Noel Calvert (Jan 8, 2013)

Hello Everyone:
Noel Calvert of GueCal Vivero Colombiano S.A.S.

I am very interested in this discussion with one very important difference. I live in South West Colombia. I am currently in the process of purchasing land to create a privately owned Botanical Garden & natural reservation. On these pieces of land I would very much like to address the issues that are being spoken about here regarding conservation of these frogs & possibly other amphibian types.

Here is how I think my location, interests, & land could benefit this discussion as well as actually be an affective way of repairing the problem in real time instead of some imaginary predesignate future when something may or may not pass.

1: Through groups like this, I interact with hobbyists interested in this conservation effort.
2: I request frog donations in the form of specific species as land becomes suitable to introduce them.
3: I pay shipping, or ideally come retrieve the frogs personally.
I slowly reintroduce these frogs into the land without interfering at all with their future survival beyond providing suitable natural habitat.
4: Observation of the various populations for 3 to 5 years.
5: At the end of the 3-5 year time span , retrieval of many of the frogs for transport & reintroduction into their specific natural habitats.

Important things to note about this would be:
1: The frogs need to have been observed exhibiting natural behavior such as parental chores if the species is known to do that.
2: Only natural phenotypes...
no morphs as those do not appear in the wild (I think), & therefore would not meet the needs for conservation of the actual species.
3: Quarantine & treatment of frogs before introduction into the program will be required to prevent introduction of captive born disease.
4: Extreme care needs to be taken packing the frogs for shipping as this would be a conservation effort, and we do not want dead frogs from shipping rather than natural selection processes during the population growth stage.
5: Complete as possible genealogy of said frogs to try to avoid siblings being consigned for this effort.
6: If you have a positive comment to help with this effort or to facilitate its success, then please comment about it... However if the comment is simply how this would never work for whatever reason, please keep that to yourself... This is about solutions, not pessimism.
7: I am personally in negotiations with the environmental protection agency here, so this effort would be manageable through them.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Noel Calvert said:


> 1: What diseases are you speaking of?
> 2: Are there treatments for them in captivity?
> 3: Could breeding pairs not be certified disease free through quarantine & treatment procedures prior to introduction into a conservation breeding program? If not, clear & specific reasons why not would be appreciated.


Did you read the thread that Ed suggested in post #4 of this thread?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Noel Calvert said:


> 3: Quarantine & treatment of frogs before introduction into the program will be required to prevent introduction of captive born disease.


This, in and of itself can create further problems. Novel forms of pathogens having been exposed to medacines may be worse to wild populations than the origional.


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## Noel Calvert (Jan 8, 2013)

aspidites73 said:


> Did you read the thread that Ed suggested in post #4 of this thread?


Of course I read it, and I addressed the issues presented. I am here in the part of the world where these beloved animals come from, and soon to be in a position to do something about their decline. I am simply asking for some interest and a bit of support with that. Obviously i am not here trying to kill the populations of frogs currently in the wild. I am interested in solutions rather than sitting on my hands like the rest of the world.


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## Noel Calvert (Jan 8, 2013)

aspidites73 said:


> This, in and of itself can create further problems. Novel forms of pathogens having been exposed to medicines may be worse to wild populations than the original.


I am more interested in quarantining with a wild caught control group to prevent introduction of pathogens at all.


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

Fine effort, but how do we know the ecosystem can support the extra frogs? Nobody really fully understands why most of these populations declined, what if whatever caused them to decline is still an unresolved issue?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Noel Calvert said:


> Of course I read it, and I addressed the issues presented. I am here in the part of the world where these beloved animals come from, and soon to be in a position to do something about their decline. I am simply asking for some interest and a bit of support with that. Obviously i am not here trying to kill the populations of frogs currently in the wild. I am interested in solutions rather than sitting on my hands like the rest of the world.


Noel, I do believe you are sincere and want the best for your area of this rock we call Earth. I, too, share this interest, and would be more than happy to help support a program that does similar things to what you are proposing. My biggest concern with what you are proposing is the fact that you are putting your largest effort into something that would do minimal, if any, help to wild populations. Possibly even hurt them. By purchasing and rehabilitating land you are doing a great service to your wild flora and fauna. Please do not muddy this with an attempt at captive sustainability of wild populations. Again, I believe you have the best intentions in your mind. I also believe you may not truly understand the scope of what you're proposing. If you are a research biologist, or similar, please accept my apology. If you are not, you (and I) are not qualified to "address the issues presented" as you stated. Please remember this: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

One last point: I am slightly offended by your suggestion that I, as part of "the rest of the world" am sitting on my hands doing nothing. You (and I) are far from the only ones who have similar concerns.


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## Noel Calvert (Jan 8, 2013)

CJW said:


> Fine effort, but how do we know the ecosystem can support the extra frogs? Nobody really fully understands why most of these populations declined, what if whatever caused them to decline is still an unresolved issue?


Great question. 
So lets find out the situation in the habitat where the frogs are naturally found, and if there is a problem needing resolved other than over-harvesting we can try to figure out how to resolve the problem.

I actually am in with the crowd who believes chemical contamination may be a huge factor... The thing most do not realize is the chemical contamination does not necessarily have to be directly in the habitat. It can also affect the habitat if it affects any resource entering the habitat including rainwater, air, or insect populations being eaten by the animals in question. Even an invasive plant entering the habitat could affect the frogs by interfering with their normal lifestyle. Some insects such as monarch butterflies migrate thousands of miles bringing whatever they encountered on the way with them though granted these are not a food source for the frogs. They are simply an example. Ants on the other hand are a food source, and range very long ways collecting for their nests.

I do not intend to work alone on this. I am simply trying to get the hobbyist population involved directly in the conservation efforts of their own hobby trade.

If the problem cannot be resolved at the natural site, my natural reserve with new populations of frogs will still be there, and will be protected as long as my reserve exists.

I am very pleased there is so much interest in at least discussing this project, and possibly in getting involved with it. 

That makes me optimistic about being able to proceed with the effort very soon.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Noel Calvert said:


> I do not intend to work alone on this. I am simply trying to get the hobbyist population involved directly in the conservation efforts of their own hobby trade.


If we, as hobbiest, are not involved directly in conservation efforts, then what do you consider Tesoro de Colombia, Wikiri, Understory Enterprises, etc. etc.? Further, you can't intend to "not work alone on this", for you are pre-dated by the very causes you seem to believe you are starting


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## Noel Calvert (Jan 8, 2013)

Aspidites73:
I intend to work with any and all the people interested in supporting efforts such as this. I never said that I was starting anything. I found this page due to my interests in providing live plants to your hobby, and became aware of other efforts through this page as well as Tesoros de Colombia. Please do not make assumptions or let this effort degenerate to bickering about non-issues. Maybe I should have said "MORE INVOLVED" 

Also, I intended to mean the people in positions to make legislation relating to conservation... Slip them a few hundred thousand dollars & they say "What frogs?" I meant no insult to you personally.


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