# Opinions on used tank purchase & cleaning



## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

Looking for your opinions on a used tank purchase (before I get told that this forum does not like people posting & I should search first, let me explain) 

I know a used tank should be bleached with a 10% solution, now here's the but...... To that. 
I purchased it from a pet shop, they are a high end shop & everything looks clean & healthy (it had thumbnails in it) I asked about the tank history & they said it was an old display tank, I could see they are going to all new exo-Terra tanks. I said I will probably bleach it and the girl said not to, we discussed why & she said she did not know how bleach would react to the foam background (the grey great stuff) it has driftwood foamed right in, it has a water feature foamed right in, the substrate is mixed into the foam. It is a beautiful tank, & I am concerened about bleaching it myself.

Just looking for opinions,
Thanks,
Dan


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Usually when you bleach a tank, you do it with just the bare glass. It does not work with a finished tank, you may have to rip out the greatstuff and start from scratch if you want to properly sterilize it.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Apart from anything else, bleaching the wood is not a good idea. Chlorinated organics and all that...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Is this tank a good deal that you can't pass up? My concern is that even thought it has been in a high end pet store, that store has had all sorts of critters moving through it, including those that lived in the tank.

If you want it for the background, personally, I wouldn't do it. The recommendation, from most, would be to gut it and bleach the empty glass tank. In fact, most of us do this when we are re-using our own tanks, when we know exactly what has been in it before.


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

Ooooo....... I hope not ! Even though I was afraid that might be the answer, I'm not at all artistic & struggle with stuff like that. The whole reason I bought it was for the beautiful background. 

Even though I kinda know that is the correct thing to do, Thats why I figured I'd ask & see how the replies shake out. If a few say they would take a chance that will help build my courage to give it a go.

That or ideally I would hear from someone who has bleached a setup like this & knows it can be done & how long to let it air out after the bleaching. 

Dan

Edit: Yes it was a good deal that I didnt pass up, I'm pretty confident only dart frogs were kept in it as the store has a special section just for darts & the way it is set up it is pretty much a high humidity dart tank. But I do agree on the bleaching as I too bleach all my tanks if I change frogs in it.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Could setting it out in the sun (w/ or w/o a black bag), spraying it down with rubbing alcohol and rinsing it, ... or soaking it in a salt water mixture do the trick?

Opinions Everyone?


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

Gamble said:


> Could setting it out in the sun (w/ or w/o a black bag), spraying it down with rubbing alcohol and rinsing it, ... or soaking it in a salt water mixture do the trick?
> 
> Opinions Everyone?


I was wondering that same thing as I placed it in the trunk of my hot black car that was sitting in the sun, glad you added that potential option to this question.
Dan


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

Could I flood the tank with water & then use some sort of aquarium cootie killer medicine ? 
Dan


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## Froggyplush (Oct 28, 2011)

Use boiling water should just about kill anything don't they use water when sterilizing


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Froggyplush said:


> Use boiling water should just about kill anything don't they use water when sterilizing


Sure, but whats the potential of cracking the glass???


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## Ivan M (Apr 11, 2012)

Just to give you a heads up, I just ripped out the GS background I had since I really did not like how it came out. If you go this route get a straight edge razor to scrape the sticky stuff on the actual glass, it's the easiest and I believe the only way to get it all out to start over. I did mine today to a 40 gallon. Straight edge was the magic.


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

Creating a background doesn't have to be artsy... I just put down the foam and "mash" my materials (cork & tree fern) into it... 









Smother the foam once set with silicone (I use black or brown GE2 100% silicone) and mash in dried coco fiber...









Once the plants grow in, most of the background is hidden anyways... Here is a tank that I just started planting:









I'd say just rip out the old background and build your own... Besides, it's fun to build backgrounds... Also, when people ooh and ahh at your tank, you can let them know that you created that little patch of jungle heaven 

-Christian


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

You make it sound so simple ! Very nice ! 

My problem is I like organization, I make things symmetrical and try to line things up just right. When in all reality nothing is symmetrical & in order in the wild. 

Dan


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Get one of your local froggers to come over and advise you on design or do it for you. Most love making tanks.


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## Froggyplush (Oct 28, 2011)

Your in the mix master dude!! Use a lemon maybe the citric acid will kill anything there


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

i would let it dry out completely then use multiple wash/ swab down cycles to minimize what remains in the tank. things you could use would include betadyne, and iodine containing solution, or hand sanitizer. do a small area first to check for staining. then you need to rinse dry repeat at least 3 times. after that i would set up and leave for a few months before putting a cheap frog in as a test. sorry to sound harsh but you would not want to loose something rare/expensive. nothing that wont destroy the background will eliminate everything that may be sitting in spore form in the tank. but just like a surgical scrub you aim to to eliminate a large percentage and then by repeating it you may get down to the level where any pathogen may die out. another thing to consider would be inoculating the viv on start up with a wide spectrum soil innoculant like subculture m. purists will tell you to rip it all out. most likely you can safely clean the tank and keep frogs in there.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

> after that i would set up and leave for a few months before putting a cheap frog in as a test.


But then he'd have to sanitize it again.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

skanderson said:


> after that i would set up and leave for a few months before putting a cheap frog in as a test.


Its not like the "cheap" frog is going to burst into flames...


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

frogface said:


> But then he'd have to sanitize it again.


Xactly......


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

You could also consider using this tank just for plants.


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## TURQ64 (Apr 21, 2012)

I'm a large scale aquarist; here's what I'd do to keep it as is, minus cooties..Fill with water, add Potassium Permanganate @ 7.6 mg (a pinch)/gallon..turns purple as all heck, major oxidiser, kills all known bacteria, and most molds...Drain after 12 hours,rinse a time or two,dry, and there you go..animal safe, all nasties dead...PP is sold in hardware stores to recharge iron filters...a great sanitizer


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## aledr2004 (Sep 6, 2011)

I personally would say its entirely your decision whether to sterilise or not.

I would rebuild because i like making stuff. If you dont then i would say it depends on how expensive the frogs are that you plan to put in and if you are willing to risk losing them. How great that risk is i dont know and i dont believe anyone else can tell you. If youre willing to take a gamble then put your frogs in and hope they'll be ok. 

Whatever you decide to do good luck.

Aled


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

TURQ64 said:


> I'm a large scale aquarist; here's what I'd do to keep it as is, minus cooties..Fill with water, add Potassium Permanganate @ 7.6 mg (a pinch)/gallon..turns purple as all heck, major oxidiser, kills all known bacteria, and most molds...Drain after 12 hours,rinse a time or two,dry, and there you go..animal safe, all nasties dead...PP is sold in hardware stores to recharge iron filters...a great sanitizer


This is the type of thing I was hoping to hear ! I don't see why something like this wouldn't work. The tank had healthy frogs in it, now I could see if the store had chytridiomycosis or some other disease going on in it everything should be destroyed & not even cleaned in my mind, but this is not the case.

I'm going to try this method, Thanks for all the advice everyone !
Dan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TURQ64 said:


> I'm a large scale aquarist; here's what I'd do to keep it as is, minus cooties..Fill with water, add Potassium Permanganate @ 7.6 mg (a pinch)/gallon..turns purple as all heck, major oxidiser, kills all known bacteria, and most molds...Drain after 12 hours,rinse a time or two,dry, and there you go..animal safe, all nasties dead...PP is sold in hardware stores to recharge iron filters...a great sanitizer


The problem with this method is that it only kills what it comes into contact with and bacteria, parasites, mold etc that are sheltered in cracks and crevices or behind organic materials will not be killed or impacted. The best practice recommendation is to discard since you cannot be sure you killed the parasites or pathogens. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dan d said:


> This is the type of thing I was hoping to hear ! I don't see why something like this wouldn't work. The tank had healthy frogs in it, now I could see if the store had chytridiomycosis or some other disease going on in it everything should be destroyed & not even cleaned in my mind, but this is not the case.
> 
> I'm going to try this method, Thanks for all the advice everyone !
> Dan


 
The fact that the frogs were healthy (or looked healthy) doesn't mean that they didn't carry parasites or pathogens that would impact later inhabitants. Potassium permangonate doesn't kill some forms of coccidia, and it will only kill things it can contact. Parasites or pathogens that are sheltered in or behind organic materials will not be killed or infected. 
There are parasites such as lungworms (Rhabdius) that have a free living non-infectious stage and can result in super infections that can kill frogs as soon as they are immunocompromised....

Ed


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## TURQ64 (Apr 21, 2012)

Ed said:


> The problem with this method is that it only kills what it comes into contact with and bacteria, parasites, mold etc that are sheltered in cracks and crevices or behind organic materials will not be killed or impacted. The best practice recommendation is to discard since you cannot be sure you killed the parasites or pathogens.
> 
> Ed


Nothing beats a 'new' tank..But in regard to the OP's question, if it gets wet,which is hard not to do fully submerged, it will be dead,including major parasites if it comes in contact with the PP...all organics will be affected, and only higher life forms have the potential to live..A PP flush is the first round of disinfecting most aquatic systems, plumbing, and filter media..It's even recommended to do a PP bath to 'etch' new biomedia for colonization..That's fairly strong oxidation, IMO...

But as Ed said, nothing beats fresh...I don't always have the luxury...Gary


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

TURQ64 said:


> Nothing beats a 'new' tank..But in regard to the OP's question, if it gets wet,which is hard not to do fully submerged, it will be dead,including major parasites if it comes in contact with the PP...all organics will be affected, and only higher life forms have the potential to live..A PP flush is the first round of disinfecting most aquatic systems, plumbing, and filter media..It's even recommended to do a PP bath to 'etch' new biomedia for colonization..That's fairly strong oxidation, IMO...
> 
> But as Ed said, nothing beats fresh...I don't always have the luxury...Gary


But the OP isn't sanitizing just a tank. It's got a background in there. I don't think it can be assumed that all parts will come in contact with the PP.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TURQ64 said:


> Nothing beats a 'new' tank..But in regard to the OP's question, if it gets wet,which is hard not to do fully submerged, it will be dead,including major parasites if it comes in contact with the PP...all organics will be affected, and only higher life forms have the potential to live..A PP flush is the first round of disinfecting most aquatic systems, plumbing, and filter media..It's even recommended to do a PP bath to 'etch' new biomedia for colonization..That's fairly strong oxidation, IMO...
> 
> But as Ed said, nothing beats fresh...I don't always have the luxury...Gary


Since the tank has drift wood and substrate foamed and attached to great stuff all over the tank, there are a lot of nooks and crannies that not only can shelter parasites and pathogens, but organics that they can get behind. For the KMNO4 to be effective it has to penetrate everything. This is impossible since depending on the crack or crevice, the shape could retain air preventing KMN04 pentration (this can be demonstrated to occur with a sponge filter.. submerge it and it retains air pockets unless they are mechanically removed) or could have a plug of organics (substrate, soil, dirt, fecal material) that prevents the KMNO4 from penetrating. This is why soaking the organics in disinfectents is known to be insufficient as a method for disinfection. 

Cryptosporidium serpentis is an example of a coccidian that is resistent to pretty much all disinfectants other than straight household ammonia, and live steam or autoclaving. 

Ed


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> Cryptosporidium serpentis is an example of a coccidian that is resistent to pretty much all disinfectants other than straight household ammonia, and live steam or autoclaving.
> 
> Ed


Does this mean that boiling water and/or a diluted ammonia solution won't work for Crypto? Edit: Also, how long can it survive on an otherwise clean, dry surface?


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## aledr2004 (Sep 6, 2011)

Reading this debate you would think this was a forum discussing the care of premature babies not frogs! This guy asked for the best way to sterilse his background but clearly doesnt want to destroy it. 

cars can run you down so you should really avoid all roads and any open spaces in case things fall on you from above, and if you really must leave the house be sure to wear a full biohazard suit.

He clearly doesnt want to rip the tank apart, just the best way to mitigate the risks without destroying the background he bought.


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

aledr2004 said:


> Reading this debate you would think this was a forum discussing the care of premature babies not frogs! This guy asked for the best way to sterilse his background but clearly doesnt want to destroy it.
> 
> cars can run you down so you should really avoid all roads and any open spaces in case things fall on you from above, and if you really must leave the house be sure to wear a full biohazard suit.
> 
> He clearly doesnt want to rip the tank apart, just the best way to mitigate the risks without destroying the background he bought.


Well said ! 

Sometimes I get the feeling that you need a sterilized lab for frog raising, I have raised frogs for 5 years now & when I started (prior to finding this forum and realizing you needed a hospital lab) I put my first frogs in a tank that used to have a wild cought tree frog in it, everyone did just fine ! (no need for the flamethrowers as I would never do that now) 

I wonder if anyone here ever gives it any thought where their sphagnum substrate come from ? Or maybe you sterialize that somehow, I guess I deserved to get flamed for that statement as I don't sterilize my sphagnum, cork or pin oak leaves. 

I'm scared now for saying that. Lol
Dan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

aledr2004 said:


> Reading this debate you would think this was a forum discussing the care of premature babies not frogs! This guy asked for the best way to sterilse his background but clearly doesnt want to destroy it.


So the implication from the first sentence is that best practices for long term health and care of the animals shouldn't be followed whenever they are impractical.... The standard that is being discussed is the minimal best practices as outlined in the literature.. For example Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, 2001, Kreiger Press... 
In addition, we have seen multiple cases of cross taxa emerging pathogens from exposing reptiles and amphibians to non-native species that are not only a problem for the captive populations but wild populations as well.. a short list includes ranaviruses, insect iridoviruses, chytridmycosis, Mycoplasma agassizi....... Allowing cross infection is a real and serious threat that is being ignored for the sake of convience.. 

And when it was pointed out that the sterilization is not practical or effective for that enclosure has searched for someone to agree with him, that is a good idea to just use it. 




aledr2004 said:


> cars can run you down so you should really avoid all roads and any open spaces in case things fall on you from above, and if you really must leave the house be sure to wear a full biohazard suit.


Totally ignoring that there are considerable laws and regulations as well as best practices on how to walk across a road to protect a person from being run over (and to protect the driver when an idiot violates them and gets hit...). 



aledr2004 said:


> He clearly doesnt want to rip the tank apart, just the best way to mitigate the risks without destroying the background he bought.


And as has been pointed out repeatedly in the thread, the only way to truly mitigate the risks is to discard all of the organics. If he is going to ignore them simply because it is inconvient then it is going to be on his head if something happens to his or if he sells frogs to another person's collection. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dan d said:


> Well said !
> 
> Sometimes I get the feeling that you need a sterilized lab for frog raising, I have raised frogs for 5 years now & when I started (prior to finding this forum and realizing you needed a hospital lab) I put my first frogs in a tank that used to have a wild cought tree frog in it, everyone did just fine ! (no need for the flamethrowers as I would never do that now)
> 
> ...


There is significant difference between using cleaned dry sphagnum moss than reusing a tank that has held multiple different taxa of wild caught and/or captive bred frogs. Attempting to compare the two is an apples and oranges comparision. 

As for the leaf litter comment, the same comments hold as for the sphagnum moss. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dane said:


> Does this mean that boiling water and/or a diluted ammonia solution won't work for Crypto? Edit: Also, how long can it survive on an otherwise clean, dry surface?


Straight house hold ammonia (no further dilution), steam are recommended. The spores can remain viable exposed for up to six months in some trials. 

Ed


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