# Weak and getting weaker (Beginner)



## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Hello everbody! 

I just made an account here after lurking for a longer time now since I'm having an emergency here.
I have two tincs which have been getting along rather well so far. One of them is about a year old and is doing fine. 

The other, younger one is rather tiny and has been doing alright as well. But since the last couple days hes stopped eating and just now he stopped moving at all, even when provoked. I just transfered him into a seperate box which I use for transport. I put some fruit flies in there as well, so he might eat again.

Can anybody help me with caring for him? Any suggestions or help are appreciated!


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

When I picked him up for transfer he still had some movement in him, and now in the box he is at least able to keep his head up. He has his legs stretched as far back as possible and in hasn't been reactive very much for the last day.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

As a first aid measure of support a micro managed spoonful of unflv pedialyte in a very shallow petri like container has been a standard in care. Its not problem specific, much like fluids care is applied in other animals, including ourselves in emergency situ.

Some will say amphibians ringers is better, but not always possible to make or order in a timely way.

Many stores carry it. On public forum im impelled to suggest it be optionally applied, in other words making sure he can leave the soak on his own volition.

There is a list of history questions at the forefront of the health problem section serving as protocol when asking for help, as well as providing encl and subject photo and or vid.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Thank you very much! If he makes it through the night I'll try my best to find an open store (everythings colsed here on sunday). I will attach pictures as soon as I can.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?
Tincs, one for about 2 months and the ill one for about a month. Got them both from a licensed dealer here. 

2. What are your temperatures -day and night - highs and lows ? Are the enclosure lights too hot ?
Between 75 during the day and 70 at night.

3. What is the Humidity like ? - Percentage or guesstimate. What type of Water are you using? Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top.
Im using my tap water (mountain region) and have an average of 85% humidity. Last couple days my tank had higher as well. Tank has ventilation at the top and one at the front

4. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it ? What superfine powdered supplements are you using and are they fresh ?
Food is fruit flies, I dusted them only once so far with calcium and vitamins. 

5. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently ? Tankmates / other frogs ?
Only one other frog in there, theyve been getting along really well so far

6. Any type of behaviour you would consider 'odd' ?
Last days he had been hiding, yesterday he started getting towards the glass front and started staring at me. Hes been lying around for most of today now. 

7. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?
Only touched him today to move him out of the tank

8. Can you take pictures of EVERYTHING ? The frogs, the enclosure ? Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.
Pics will be provided as soon as I figure out how I do it.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)




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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

This is his current emergency housing (without the lid of course). I sprayed him once again with some warm water, he moved a little after a couple of pumps. 

Regarding the Pedialyte: Is it something I can buy in a pharmacy? These are the only places open right now and tomorrow (I'm situated in central Europe). 

Big thanks to any help!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Yeah dont spray him with warm water. Just room temp. What is warm water to our 
mammalian hand can be a stressor and hazard.

When frogs are compromised their regulatory functionality is also compromised. ie; Killing them with water kindness. So dont drench the frog. A Q contact75 % with a shallow pedialyte puddle has saved WC darts that looked like your frog.

ARAV veterinary connect is imperative.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

It would be nice to put a tent of leaf in there or close replicant.

Pharmacies carry it. Sometimes unflv is harder to come by. After you open it put it in the fridge. Pour amount needed in a paper or plastic cup a short time before use to knock the chill off.
It needs to be changed a few times a day whether it looks soiled or not but not so often that your preventing rest disturbing the frog with regular container manipulation.

Find ARAV vet near you.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Thank you so so so much for your help!

Update so far: I managed to score the local equivalent of pedialyte and applied some onto him with a dropper (quite a lot actually, like 60ml) and also got some calciumcarbonate since everything else is out of stock here. I'm currently mixing a solution of that as well and plan to apply it with a dropper. He has shown movement and tried to escape, this issue that I have been able to observe is the following:
He is dragging his legs behind him and can't jump properly - is it a clacium deficit?
Also opened his box up a bit since I sprayed way too much water in there.

My big question is: Is dropping the solutions onto him enough or does he need a proper puddle? 
In case of the puddle: Is filling a bottle cap enough?

Thanks once more for the help!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Quaksi said:


> 4. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it ? What superfine powdered supplements are you using and are they fresh ?
> Food is fruit flies, I dusted them only once so far with calcium and vitamins.


To clarify: you have only dusted their prey once in two months? If so, it is a calcium deficit, and will need vet care to correct. Dusting is typically done on all prey items at every feeding, especially for younger growing animals. 

Since you're in the EU I assume you're using Dendrocare or Repashy Calcium Plus?


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Yes that is correct. I was instructed to do so by the local 'specialist', thanks for clarifying that. 
Finding an available vet over here is next to impossible, but I will try to use my contacts at the veterinarian university!
Once again thank you very very much for the help!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Sometimes a gentle tilt to the Q container cleared on one end a couple inches, using a small slat or book edge for a narrow gulley of shallow water or ped, works well. You just wipe out the water with a paper towel and replace. I have found that uniform contact overwetting does not have as good outcomes as managing gradients that will allow a dart frog to find a respite away from uniform wetness as long as he is still mobile and shows organized movement. Even if weak.

Thats been my experience. Cant say for others


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Alright then! I have managed to secure a contact with the responsible doctor for amphibians at the university and will contact them tomorrow (its 11:30pm here), assuming the little fella is still alive by then!

Just so that I understand your comment correctly (English isn't even my second language): Should I clear out some space in the container on one end and put some pedialyte into it while keeping the container permanently in a tilted state?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I have found the most succes with not treating a deficiency until electrolites are stabilized.
The course of events i have been trained and used is carefully applying Levels of support. 

Fluids
Calories
Vitamins and Calcium.

If you apply the second and third before the first has a chance to create its platform you tax the organs responsible for their metabolism. 

Calcium, vitamins and proteins require work from kidneys and liver.

Just what i have found to work well.

A good period of regaining fluids balance. Which is case by case. Im uncomfortable getting more detailed in this format.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

I get your point. In this case I will further dillute the pedialyte and give the little frog the chance to soak in it on its own accord. Luckily I waited for your reply before applying the calcium! I will be heading off to bed soon, hoping that he will make it until the expert can see him. 
Its been a long night for me now, once again thanks for all the kind help!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I cant give you a dose but i will just say that diluting it too much defeats the purpose. However i dont know what your using.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Last post for now (sorry for all the spam) 

I followed the instructons and set up the box with a puddle. While doing this he started moving again, more than all day so far, and is currently sticking on the wall of the box. 

My fear is way smaller now since seeing the little fella climbing around a little bit.

To clear up the things I left unanswered due to my panic:

-I am using Normolyt right now as the local equvalent of pedialyte.
-For supplements I am using Terravit, both vitamin and calcium

I wish a great day (or night) to all of you!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

60 ml is overkill extraordinaire, my worried friend. 

He just needs to soak his tummy. If you make the moss wet with it, it encourages bacteria.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Well thats goood news. Theres alot of other guys here to fill the spaces about supplements brands. I chose to focus on the 'Stat' of restorative ER. Its a common tendency to go on full force attack and inundate with resources but patience, delicacy and observing effect has presented be the best approach. It really has.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

As long as the slant of puddle doesnt surpass his shoulders it should be ok. You want to be able to wipe it out with a pad of paper towels.

The great thing about tipped puddle is that its easy for them to access and easy to maintain.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

You did good work. No matter what may happen, how you got everything you could together and explained everything, your work was good.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

I just checked on him and he was reactive to some degree, so he made it through the night. 
Next step is getting him help from the vet and getting him the calcium he needs!


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Update: He is now at the university and they will try to nurse him back to healthy. He is still able to move around on his own from time to time, so feeding him with a special pastry. He will also get a calcium bath and his own UVB light there. The costs are 250€ (about 280 USD) so far for the whole treatment. The nurse will get a specialist to come by tomorrow and check on him. She described him as skin-and-bones with a substantial chance of dying, but it seems that theres also the possibility of him making a recovery.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Thats fantastic to hear, you come back here with that there frog, ok?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I think it will be helpfull for you to post some photo's of your enclosure since it's my guess I has a lot to do with the poor condition of the frog. Also the supplements you've been using die the frogs.

When I see the 'quarantine tank' I already get the chills tbh..


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

I will hope for the best! I scheduled a twice daily call with the vets. 

In the pics uploaded now I'll show you the main tank, you can even spot the larger frog thats still left in there.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

While the frog is away receiving clinical care its a hand of perfect timing to make changes. 

Theres alot of stuff that the best meaning ppl get because its promoted for frog, even dart frog husbandry - with graphics of a dart frog on packaging and everything, who would think untrustworthy?

Dyes on moss, who knows what effect they chronically have? An unescapable sensate stressor is enough for me to pass. Fountains that light up and force a nocturnal tree frog to seek relief from its dry bark existance by soaking in an abstraction of twisted day and night cycle? Sprays with colorful jungle scenes that magically address nutritional needs with the press of a finger. And so much more.

I always find it vibrant and exceptional when someone cares enough about a little guy that they are willing to be vulnerable, inconvenienced, and make sacrifices with money, time. Add a circle of others wanting wellness for that same little guy, one of thousands that is cared for like this.

Its the best and you are too.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

We can supe that up for ya ( ;


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

I hope I catch your drift, any help would be appreciated! Luckily money is not an issue here. So far I have:

-a floor mostly covered with moss
-a tree bark hiding that both frogs used to occupy together
-a stone with holes drilled into, which used to be a favourite with the large one still left here
-a coconut house that hasn't been used at all
-some live plants, all non-toxic for the frogs
-a tree stump, which sadly keeps on getting mouldy, no matter how often or long I put it in the oven

Furthermore I have an automatic pump coupled to an hygrostat and some fans which I occasiaonally use, since they tend to significantly lower the humidity after a couple of minutes.

What else can be done to help the remaining one and prepare everything for the hospitalized one for when he returns?


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

The large one, which had gotten fatter since arrival, lost some weight as well in the last week or so. Tomorrow I will get new earth and moss and remodel the whole housing. Anything else I should get? He still eats (last saw him doing so yesterday) and is moving around quite frequently. Any good ways of fattening him up while he still has the power to do so?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

It sounds like you might have to start from the beginning, however not knowing how much time you have you may not be able to use conventional adhesives in building a draining soil level.

Personally i dont think you should press it as far as detectible fumes. Not when he has returned from a homers odyssey of novel stressors.

Mitigating stress for fragile herps is an art form. Its halmarks are precaution and the prudent side to err.

So there may be a kind of halfway house modality to go with. 

Im on my way to work in wifeys car. 

You are in good hands with whos comin by


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Cheers mate! I took time off work for tomorrow and will only have to head in on tuesday this week. What can be done?

A seperate tiny tank for the little friend? An what about remodeling for the large fella?


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

My decision so far: Tomorrow I'll put the large one into the transport box (I know it's horrible but it's an emergency measurement) and remodel the tank by installing two new side walls of cork and adding a layer of puffed clay underneath the new earth and moss which I will be getting as well. Anything I have been missing out?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Earth and Moss are terrible substrate for dart frogs, your enclosure is simply to wet and not suited for them. 

The lamp inside the terrarium is an absolutely 'GET IT OUT NOW!'


I sugguest you look up topics for how to setup terrariums for dart frogs fast. This tank is a deathtrap and will never be good for them.

I can give you a link of how I basicly setup my tanks : 70x50x65cm Vivarium Build.

Keep in mind that for Tinctorius you want a lot more dry spots and leaflitter! No water feautures for them.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Tijl said:


> Earth and Moss are terrible substrate for dart frogs, your enclosure is simply to wet and not suited for them.
> 
> The lamp inside the terrarium is an absolutely 'GET IT OUT NOW!'
> 
> ...


Alright then! I will follow your advice! Looks like I've been duped by the local 'expert'. What is your recommendation for setting up the ground? I had a look through your thread and have a few questions coming up:

-where did you aquire your gravel?
-same for the leafs, in the woods?
I will be able to implement all the changes, the more detailed the suggestions, the more efficient I can work. 

Thanks already for all the input!


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Your local aquarium or terrarium shop will have everything.

It shows in the build report. Pondfoam used as drainage layer. Than gravel and leaflitter. Make sure you can always drain all water. 

Leaf just come from trees, i prefer magnolia I'm sure there are frog stores selling them aswell.


Also , don't use UV(b) lamps please. I've been keeping and breeding Tinctorius for 10 years perfectly without.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

I see. The issue I have is the following: the only frog store over here is where I got all the bad advice reagrading the setup. They don't really carry much stuff, most of my stuff I got from amazon. 

Regarding the UVb lamp: Is there anything to replace it or should I just drop it alltogehter?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Use regular T5 lamps or LED


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

As someone who has used them i would never apply it like that. Its a dimensional and controversal topic.

Your vet is using it to therapeutically expedite processes of bone and tissue development.

Do not use a led light or any light internally as well.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Good points! I will post the new set up as soon as it s finished. If possible, I will try to apply the lights (my choice fell on LED) externally above the tank. Still praying for the hospitalized friend, since I got no call until now I take it as a good sign.

Tomorrow will be an early wake up and some rushing around all over the county. I managed to find some real specialist who should be able to help me with some emergency improvements.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

No news on the little fella so far, I guess he must be doing alright then. 
To remodel the entire tank I got some puffed clay, above which I will put a layer of soil which, on top of which I plan on putting some pine bark and finishing it off with leafs which I'm about to go out and collect. 
Anything I've been missing?


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Finally got the call from the university and its some mildly good news. 

My little friend was able to eat two fruit flies yesterday, although with assistance. I have to pick him up tomorrow and will get taught how to help him fatten up again by force feeding him some calories rich pulp.
I was also told to keep them seperated in clear plastic containers without any furniture or plants, only a soaked ground so that it is easier to judge if and how much they have been eating. Doing this also allows me to easily collect some poop samples which I will send into a lab in Germany. 

Still hoping for a christmas miracle!


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

You mentioned that you use tap water. Unless you know the make-up of the water I would lean towards using distilled water if you have a local store that carries it.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

I just got the call, he did not make it through last night  They are suspecting severe illnesses, I‘ll have him tested. Now it’s all about nursing the other back to health!


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Sorry to hear.

The advice on keeping him on a soaked ground is probably the worst advice they could give. Imo the soaky ground is what is (was) the big part of the problem for your frogs.

I can show you how I keep my offspring to give you an idea. They staat in that tank from when they hit land until they are 6months old and ready for a new home : 



After 9-10 they have to be separarted or paired up to prevent agression. But the habitat stays the same..

What do you use as supplement?


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Thanks for the advice! 

I got an autopsy done, apparently he was already full of worms when I got him and according to the vet there wasn't anything I could have done for him anyway  

I got some anti-worm serum to aplly every two weeks, just got done with the first one. Now I'll collect some poop samples and send them in weekly. It looks like the remaining one has been eating today, since there aren't that many flies left. He will remain in quarantine for at least two weeks now (I'll be cleaning out his new huge quarantine box daily). That will give me time to redo the whole viv.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

For supplements I'm currently using the multivitamins from TerraVit and some calcium powder without any additional stuff from Reptiland.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I want to point you out that worms are a sympton for stress. So you are doing good in completely redoing the enclosure 👍


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

You did what you could and you followed directions expediently and communicated the circumstances clearly and intelligently. You went out of your way in a difficult time and even had a gross necrop. That is more than what happens to thousands and thousands of his kind.

I cannot count the times being called on to help that the struggle has been for clients to hmm and haw, about getting things they need or making excuses of time and money. Yet they have more than one car, the latest devices, etc etc etc. 

I would advise you search function Rapashy supplements on dendroboard. Cal Plus, Vitamin A and Superpig are the trio that is has proven out to simplifying ones choices to a trustworthy ideal. 

Im still rather taken aback by your attitude and engagement.

Very few shops approach aquisition and set up as the curated experience it needs to be. 

Its a DIY and Im sure you will be great at it.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Well, it looks like the supp you are presently using has a retinoid A as opposed to many usa brands that use beta carotene to avoid toxic overdose with larger taxa + copious use.

Which is good until you can get Rapashy. But you may want to double check ingredients. 

There are specifics of powder retention and every feeding application that unlike other powders, was researched by Rapashy.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Thank you all for the great help and the reassuring words!

I had a check on the fella in the quarantine box and it looks like he has been eating most of the flies I gave him yesterday. Couldn't find any poop so far but I'm trying not to stress him out too much. He's been active as always, hiding in the coco hut during night and hopping around during the day. 

This is a huge relief for me. I managed to get off work until the 11th of January so I can help the little fella gain weight and finsih redoing his viv.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Update: He absolutely annihilated the flies and is currently hunting again as I gave him some more recently. Also had good luck at collecting some poop samples. He seems to be doing way better than two days ago already.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Inthink it might be wise to post a shot of the quarantaine tank


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

I will post one tomorrow as his room is in 'nightmode' right now and I don't want to stress him out. 
It is really bleak actually, but the vet insisted on me doing it this way so it can be easily cleaned out daily to avoid reinfection. Currently I have two large plastic boxes with airholes, where the ground is covered in slightly wet towels. Furthermore theres a coco hut and a water plate in each of them. 
I was told to clean them out daily, so I'll just transfer the frog into the cleaned out tank every day and collect samples from the used one as well as putting the coco hut into the oven for some time to kill off any parasites or other dangers to his health.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Had the great chance to watch him hunt earlier and my girl insists that he already put on weight, though my eyes are too bad to judge that. I'm currently dusting the flies everyday to get him back on track, when should I stop doing so?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Quaksi said:


> I will post one tomorrow as his room is in 'nightmode' right now and I don't want to stress him out.
> It is really bleak actually, but the vet insisted on me doing it this way so it can be easily cleaned out daily to avoid reinfection. Currently I have two large plastic boxes with airholes, where the ground is covered in slightly wet towels. Furthermore theres a coco hut and a water plate in each of them.
> I was told to clean them out daily, so I'll just transfer the frog into the cleaned out tank every day and collect samples from the used one as well as putting the coco hut into the oven for some time to kill off any parasites or other dangers to his health.


I would recommend not to transfer him at all. this will only stress him out more. I would only place LEAFLITTER in the querantinebox and keep the cocohut and the waterplate. If the frog does not use the waterplate, you are better of losing it.

There is a very very slim chance of anny form infection imo,rather there is only stress from living in incorrect setups. So basicly hostile enviroment for the frogs since the first day you put them into their setup..

I think your vet is giving you not much of good advice an it already cost you a fair amount of money. If you keep putting our frog to stress ( what your vet advices ) I think you will be losing this one aswell.

But ofcourse this is just my thoughts I base on my experience with Tinctorius, I would love to hear from other experienced keeprs on this topic.

as KMC already said, you are just trying to take best care possible so there is no blame or annything like that. 
I think your doing everything you can,so I aplaud you for that.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Thank you very much once more for your input!

Regarding the vets advice: It was based on the assumption that he has a worm infection as well which should be the reason for his recent weightloss. The way she explained it to me, the worms are in his poop and through this being just about everywhere, will spread to just about everywhere. In two or three days I am planning on shipping the first sample. 
Next thing will be another treatment with the anti-worm serum in 13 days and then the shipment of another sample after that. 
Regarding your input about the box: I was thinking the same, so I brought it up and she insisted on me doing it her way. From what I can judge for the two days he's been in the boxes, he seems to be moving around more than he used to and seems to be eating rather well, though I will only really allow myself to get my hopes up in two days, granted he keeps improving.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I hope it keeps improving, too. 

Curious: what kind of worms, and what drug for treatment?


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

I checked on him this morning and his legs have gotten a bit fatter and he is moving around again, though he didn't eat most of his flies tonight (still proud of the ~30 he ate in the last two days). 

I have no printed record of the exact kind of worms, but the vet mentioned nematodes. Current treatment is an Ivomec-solution which can be applied orally or absorbed through the skin. 

I will be collecting leafs today and transfer him to a box with leaflitter as soon as I have enough samples to send in.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Quaksi said:


> I will be collecting leafs today and transfer him to a box with leaflitter as soon as I have enough samples to send in.


Would be a good idea to sterilize the leaves before you add them to the tank to avoid introducing any hitchhiker’s or additional stress factors. I do this by washing in very hot water and then microwaving them, however others bake them in the oven first


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

Of course I will. Tomorrow I'll transfer him to the leaflitter box and hope for the best. I decided that even if he has worms, beating them will be easier if he is doing well in an environment that he feels comfortable in. I will try to feed him some more, didn't have much of a chance watching him today but he doesn't look deathly ill so far.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

So this is his current quaerantine housing, I wll finish it in about an hour with some more hiding spots. Plants will be added as soon as the stores reopen over here. 

Little fella is climbing around a lot and seems rather aware of his surroundings. Will feed him later today and see if he goes hunting.


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

When putting him into his new housing he was very active and I had a hard time catching him. Now after a quick search he seems to have found a comfortable spot, where he is sitting and trying to clean himself. I have not observed this behaviour before (though it is really cute to look at!), there is nothing worrysome about it, right?


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## Quaksi (Dec 19, 2020)

So here he is on his favourite spot. He got stronger and is moving around way more, especially after dropping the fruit flies into his tank. I'm daring to be slightly optimistic, although his front legs are really skinny (always been) he is capable of hunting and shows coordinated movement.


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