# Too much microfauna freaking out my frogs



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

My Lorenzos have been behaving strangely, lately. Hiding more, hanging out more in their film canisters up on the glass, rather than down in the tank. Not eating flies but maintaining their chubby little bodies.

I think I've figured out the problem. The tank is crawling with springs and isos. Really, they are all over everything. 

I've read up on the Co2 bombing and will keep that in mind as plan B. However, I'd rather not 'unseed' the whole tank if I can help it. So, I was thinking of putting a container of mushrooms in there to draw them out and remove a good bit of them. 

Does this sound like it would work to thin down the population? Something other than mushrooms that they might prefer to the substrate (bark, clay, moss, LECA, leaves)? Oh maybe cucumbers too. 

Ok, I'm off to make my way through the snow and ice to get some 'shrooms (and some food for me). 

If anyone has any ideas, please let me know.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

you may be prompting a boom by providing them with more food. Co2 is probably your best bet, and i really doubt with a single "bombing" you'll kill all of the springs buried in the substrate.

james


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks James, you're probably right. Ok I'll grab the ingredients for the bomb while I'm out.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Sounds like nothing a couple of pumilio couldn't handle  too bad you can't throw a couple in there for a week


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

ChrisK said:


> Sounds like nothing a couple of pumilio couldn't handle  too bad you can't throw a couple in there for a week


LOL yea, and I've got just the ones to do it, too.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Yea Kris....seriously.....bottle that stuff and send up to all the pumilio junkies. Don't bomb it.

Worst case....take it out and put it all in a rubbermade and continue to feed it!

Spring time, you will make a lot of new friends with it!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

How about this:

I put the lorenzos in a temp tank. Flood their tank above the substrate and suck out the critters and make a gigantic culture. Lower water and let substrate drain. Put lorenzos back in.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If the tank is less than a year old (particularly if it is less than 6 months old) then you are probably seeing the huge boom due to a massive supply of food for the invertebrates. If you give it some time, you will see the population crash back down again. It may go through a couple of cycles like that but it will balance out. This isn't uncommon. 

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree with Ed, but this doesn't mean that the microfauna can't drive the adult tincs crazy. When I've had this happen, I'll take the adults out, put a large group of froglets in the tank (leucs and azureus work really well for this), and they'll consume the overage in pretty quick order. Eventually the tank becomes re-inhabitable for the adults.

Good luck with them, Richard.


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## spoonowl (Aug 11, 2010)

i had the same problem with my tank that houses 4 leucs a few weeks ago and i was getting really worried as well. i just added barely enough flies to give the frogs some vitamins and calcium as well and after 2 weeks the frogs have reduced the springtail/woodlice population back to normal if not reduced ammount. hope that helps,
daniel

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/61369-excessive-feeding.html


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks guys

Ed, this tank is right around 6 months. I did it in the end of June or beginning of July.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Thanks guys
> 
> Ed, this tank is right around 6 months. I did it in the end of June or beginning of July.


Nuking the tank with a CO2 bomb (I wonder if I just made some terror watch list), will just disrupt the cycle but not remove the nutrients that are allowing this boom and bust cycle... 

There are a couple of ways to slow it down.. one is stop feeding the microfauna (if you are feeding it), the second is remove some of the leaf litter and the third is to actually let the tank dry out a little... 

Since your frogs are doing well (just changing thier behaviors a little) I would just watch them at the moment and let the system cycle. I think Brent Brock posted some good stuff on boom and busts in terraria in the frognet.org archives. 

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I was just checking my group of 3 sub-adult Lorenzos and all three are sitting in the foliage up to about six inches off the floor. While many of my tinc froglets sit in the foliage for the first couple of months, they almost all become terrestrial before about 5 months or so.

So maybe Lorenzos just like being off the ground more than other tinctorius morphs.

Richard.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Woodsman said:


> I was just checking my group of 3 sub-adult Lorenzos and all three are sitting in the foliage up to about six inches off the floor. While many of my tinc froglets sit in the foliage for the first couple of months, they almost all become terrestrial before about 5 months or so.
> 
> So maybe Lorenzos just like being off the ground more than other tinctorius morphs.
> 
> Richard.


You mean like this?




































They are climby little things. Not as much now as when they were younger. Now they spend more time on the ground (well not as much right now). They do have a log in the background that they like to sit on top of or get inside of. 

I love these frogs 

edit: Sorry I have to use every opportunity to post their pics.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, Mike K gave me a group of tads to raise up a while back. Honestly, from the photos I had seen (before seeing Mike's frogs), I wasn't very impressed by the Lorenzo morph. Now I can't see why they aren't more popular. Like all the other dwarf tinctorius that I have in my collection (Bakhuis, Oyapock, French Guyana Dwarf Cobalts), they fit really nicely into the smaller vivs, are VERY active, and really pretty striking little frogs.

Hope you solve the issues with them, Richard.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

richard, you like that female with the yellow legs???

i thought it was a bacterial infection at first since the spots weren't yellow but whie/cream, they only turned the bold yellow after mike got her.

pictures also dont do the "ghost" patterning justice. it can only be seen clearly when a light is focused directly at the frog (like a flashlight)

james


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi James,

Yeah, those are pretty frogs! The Lorenzos seem to have quite a bit of variety to them. I'd love to see a specimen of the "Black Ghost" Lorenzos that are on Marcus' "Tropical Experience" site. I also see a definite "kinship" between the Brasilian Yellowheads and the Lorenzos, a very reduced BYH can look quite a bit like a Lorenzo.

Given that is of Brasilian origin, I wonder how many initial importations there were. It would be great to work out how many bloodlines there are in the hobby.

Take care, Richard.




james67 said:


> richard, you like that female with the yellow legs???
> 
> i thought it was a bacterial infection at first since the spots weren't yellow but whie/cream, they only turned the bold yellow after mike got her.
> 
> ...


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

as of now, there are 2 bloodlines as far as i know (possibly one) and until mike, bill schwinn, was the ONLY one producing them with any sort of regularity. they seem to have smaller clutch sizes than other tincs.

the "ghosts" are out there and very pretty IMO, they are usually not released to the general hobby and either held back or traded secretly. dont expect to see any for sale in the near future 

james


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I keep playing Barry White for my pair and hoping for a ghost. I didn't realize other people found the Black Ghosts to be as beautiful as I do. 

My female, pictured above, hasn't colored up much more than in those early pictures. I only see her pointy yellow nose when she hides in the tank.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

people find anything thats rare beautiful  cant beat an all black tinc though!

james


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## gio (Nov 9, 2010)

wow i had a similar problem


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## berrymilan (Aug 16, 2010)

You should change their feed i think, :S but m not sure about it.


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

Is everyone feeding too much or do you have such great terrarium conditions?

My frogs exterminated any living creature in my terrariums.

especially keeping a spingtail population inside a Pumilio terrarium alive is almost impossible to do


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I haven't seeded this tank in a while (don't know how long. Maybe a month or so?). I don't feed the bugs. The substrate is mostly orchid bark with some moss, a little LECA, coco fiber, peat. There is a leaf litter but it's wearing out and I need to put more in there, as soon as the snow melts and I can find the leaves again. 

The background is clay and there is some clay in the substrate too.

Here's what I've decided to do: Since these frogs are well fed, I'm going to stop feeding flies for a few days and let them get the microfauna population down themselves. If this, combined with the cycling of the bugs, doesn't work, I have the makings for CO2. 

I also have snails in there so the CO2 wouldn't be a terrible thing


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The problem with nuking the tank is that you disrupt the break-in cycle. Once you reseed the tank, you will probably see this happen all over again. In new systems, the microbial community is provided with a huge buffet of materials that are available for breakdown/sequestering. This in turn provides a huge food source for invertebrates like springtails and isopods which results in huge booms in thier populations particularly under ideal conditions. 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Well, I think I figured out the problem.

The substrate was looking a little worn out, so I removed it to freshen it up a bit. It was saturated! The substrate consists of bark, moss, leaves, peat. Mostly bark. I thought it also had LECA in it but none to be seen. It was a soggy mess. The leaves on top were disguising it. So I've got it out, drying. I'll be adding charcoal and LECA and maybe some pebbles to it. 

There was very little microfauna actually in the substrate. It appears they all came up for some fresh air. 

Hopefully, after getting the substrate freshened up, the bugs will go back down where they belong.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If it's saturated now, it will quickly saturate again. While it's torn apart, you should simply replace it with ABG mix. You can get it from Josh's Frogs.
Doug


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> If it's saturated now, it will quickly saturate again. While it's torn apart, you should simply replace it with ABG mix. You can get it from Josh's Frogs.
> Doug


Yea, that looks like good stuff! Unfortunately, I'm tapped out as far as online purchases, at the moment. Have to use what I've got around the house. So I let it dry a bit, and then added dry bark, crunched up charcoal, and tree fern fiber. Now it's coco fiber, bark, charcoal, tree fern fiber, peat, leaves, a little bit of sphagnum moss and other moss, a little bit of clay. I topped it off with a thick layer of maple leaves and topped that off with a thick layer oak leaves. It looks much healthier. 

I'll post a pic 


eta: ta da!


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

you still have a drainage layer under that correct? if not the substrate will just get soaked again by wicking moisture up from any water in the bottom.

james


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yea, actually a false bottom; eggcrate and PVC. The water is about 1" or so below the substrate. The gravel you see in the front in the picture is just a thin layer in front to hide eggcrate. 

I think what happened is a combination of letting the leaf litter get worn out (misting going directly into the substrate) and me misting the crap out of the tank for want of Lorenzo babies. 

It seems much better now and the Lorenzos have settled in. Nice, thick, brand new leaves.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

This looks ok, doesn't it? The clay showing is not part of the substrate. It's just along the glass there. I used clay to seal the gaps. No silicone inside this tank. The previous substrate was only as high as the clay. 

When I went in to take these pictures, he was in the coco hut, calling his little yellow head off


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