# Crickets & Superworms for phyllobates terribilis



## danggrianto (Jan 2, 2019)

Anyone feed their frog crickets /superworms?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I've done mealworms in the past for tincs but they have to be small enough or tincs can choke on them.

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/351492-breeding-gryllodes-sigillatus.html


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I've read of folks feeding crickets to darts. Crickets are so miserable to deal with, though, that it would have to be the frog's golden birthday or something for me to get involved in that. 

I've offered my leucs mealworms of an appropriate size (i.e. 1/4") -- they were not at all interested.


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## Apoplast (Mar 17, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Crickets are so miserable to deal with, though, that it would have to be the frog's golden birthday or something for me to get involved in that.


Really? Interesting. I'd not have categorized them that way. I have a colony of _Gryllodes sigillatus_ from which I planned to use the day old crickets as dart feeders. The _Gryllodes sigillatus_ are generally a bit smaller than _Acheta domesticus_, and the ones that have just hatched are maybe as large as 1/16". The only problem with a cricket colony, as far as I can tell, is that you end up with way more crickets than you can use. They eat a bunch of leftover fruit, and cheap feed though. Plus, their old egg crate is great for compost and isopods colonies, imbued with the extra fertility as it is when no longer needed. 

I think I am going to start trying to see how pea aphid rearing goes. I suspect they make great dart feeders, but I have a feeling they might be a bit of a nuisance, both for maintenance and as potential pests on the houseplants. We'll see.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Well, miserable compared to other staple herp feeders such as mealworms, superworms, roaches, and fruit flies. I've not raised my own crickets, though, so that may be a big difference.

Crickets smell more -- well, when they die off they smell, though this may be more of an issue with purchased crickets rather than home-raised ones; mealworms are like this, in that purchased ones die much more readily than those raised at home, IME. Shipping is hard on insects, I think.

On that note, crickets die. I can hold superworms (and mealworms, to a lesser extent) for months in good condition, but crickets not so much. Roaches, I can buy small and raise to size with no losses (or they are easily produced on scraps, like you describe for crickets).

Crickets are more of a nuisance when they escape. Dubia roaches die pretty quickly in northern homes, as do FFs, but crickets hang around and chirp for a good while.

And fruit flies? Fruit flies are so easy to culture it is silly. For less than a dollar a cx of FFs makes thousands (I don't know -- how many?) flies; crickets of any size are 10 for a buck retail, something around 30 for a buck in 1000 count box quantities.

I'd enjoy reading about how you culture your crickets; maybe my mind could be changed about their relative merits.


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## jtherr (Nov 2, 2017)

I have fed crickets to tincs before without any issue. I did it as more of a bigger meal before I went out of town for a few days. I don't do it frequently due to the cost, as I don't breed/culture my own. The Gryllodes sigillatus species is much easier to work with as the smell is so much better than Acheta domesticus in the few shipments I've had over the years. 

My issue with crickets is that they are not useable for most dart species once they are 1/8" unless you have some big terribilis. The Gryllodes sigillatus pinheads are perfect though size wise and the frogs seem to enjoy them.


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## Flyschwacker (Apr 23, 2020)

I used to ocassionally feed pinheads but they didn't ship very well and I didn't care much for raising them either. Never tried worms. According to some of the data available at the time there was actually less fiber fat and calcium compared to flies to make it worth the smell, however I reached out to a couple suppliers way back when and Ghans was kind enough to entertain me by shipping eggs as a experiment and I believe I posted the contact info success rate etc on here under the username flybuster.


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## Apoplast (Mar 17, 2020)

I agree with what everyone has said about crickets. They smell. Or at least they do when they die, or their frass gets wet. They do not ship well, especially the small sizes. They can be noisy, though _Gryllodes sigillatus_ are much less so. And I'll add to their down sides that they also take up way more room to culture than other dart feeders. You won't be fitting a colony neatly in a cubby next to the dart viv like FF cx.

However... I don't particularly care for the smell of FF cx either, and roaches can get down right stinky depending on the type. My cricket culture hasn't really made much aroma, and this is apparently down to the way i learned to keep them. Plus, I just have it set in the basement, next to the boiler for warmth. So, it is out of the way even if it did smell. 

On that note, it's far enough out of the way that even when they do sing, I don't know it. When I do catch them calling, this species has a pretty feeble volume. Plus, they don't seem to want to live outside of the colony in my house when I do get the occasional escapee. 

The fact that they don't ship well seems like a check in the plus column for keeping them rather than relying on sourcing them. Also, I agree they are too expensive retail. My starter colony was like 2.5¢ an individual initially. Not bad, but they grow happily on fruit scraps (they like some veg too, but don't seem to favor leafy greens that I've found), and chick feed. You know he chick feed that is is $12 for a 50lbs bag. They also do very well with rabbit food, though that can run you a few dollars more a 50lbs bag. You can also go the high calcium route and given them the Fluker's stuff. Regardless it's all pretty cheap.

Plus, _Gryllodes sigillatus_ seem to hold onto supplement dust for days and days. I've found them in a gecko cage 2 days after feeding (probably tossing in too many at a time - I know), and they were still white. I feel as though the _Acheta domesticus_ can clean themselves off more rapidly or more effectively.

They definitely take up space. A couple large totes with a couple smaller ones at a minimum. 

i feel like the biggest check in the pro column is that they produce. A lot. With that minimal setup you can get a few thousand hatchling crickets a week. If I were just feeding darts, I wouldn't know what to do with that many. But they grow fairly quickly once they get going, and if you have other herps that would like to chase a cricket, it becomes worth it. I even know a guy who feeds his crickets them the scrap feed from his chickens and then feeds the surplus crickets he creates to his chickens. I just feed extras to the birds around here, and freeze and toss the rest into the compost pile. Kind of a waste, but I don't know what else to do with that many crickets. My next door neighbor raises _Acheta domesticus_, and he was looking into selling his surplus to a local pet shop. Different species. Same problem. Crickets make lots more crickets. All that from food scarps, cheap feed, and about 20-30 minutes a week of time. It's a feeder I can count on.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Apoplast said:


> I just feed extras to the birds around here, and freeze and toss the rest into the compost pile. Kind of a waste, but I don't know what else to do with that many crickets.


https://time.com/3830167/eating-bugs-insects-recipes/

Now you know.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Oh, and because this is Dendroboard and we cross all our Ts and dot all our Is, I'll mention that freezing (except by liquid N2 immersion) is not an AVMA approved method of euthanasia for invertebrates except in conjunction with e.g. CO2 overdose:

https://www.purdue.edu/research/regulatory-affairs/animal-research/docs/2013_AVMA_Guidelines.pdf

The guidelines do go out of their way to say that this is a gray area, though, so take this for what you will; I think most people here have frozen a FF or two.


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## Apoplast (Mar 17, 2020)

Rain Frog - Great thread you linked to! I think I can improve my success greatly by applying some of your techniques. And will.

Hi SM - I've eaten crickets - occupational hazard when working with entomologists. I'm happy to leave them for others in the future.

In terms of the AVMA, I think this is one of those cases where the regs are more for the benefit of those doing the euthanasia than for those to be euthanized. LN causes a burning sensation in animals. True a cricket dropped in LN wouldn't feel that pain for long, but it would be a sense of total body burn at the end. That is why the IACUC board at my institution allows tropical arthropods (below a certain mass) to be placed in the freezer. They do not suffer the same way even though the process is longer. As someone who has had hypothermia (long story for another time) I can say that even we endotherms probably would prefer the slow death in that case to being flash frozen.

I realize there is an air of levity in your post, but I do try to consider my impact. Silly perhaps. But I do. I try to live to the virtues I would like to espouse, and needlessly imposing suffering is not one of them. So, I understand the motives behind the guidelines. However, I am also a biologist and a realist. We are animals ourselves (and not detritivores), and thus no matter your dietary choices, to live a healthy life we must be the cause of death to other organisms. In the case of our husbandry of Anurans, we must provide living sacrifices to maintain our captives. This could be termed cruel, or seen as an extension of the natural process. I could go on, but with your philosophical training I'd probably have my argument handed to me. I suppose I simply wanted to explain that I have thought a bit about the paradox of any person wishing to minimize suffering while remaining alive, and I've grown comfortable with the conflict.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

In many ways I've begun to enjoy raising crickets as a feeder. I get more production than I do with my fruit flies. I've even had to cut back on tubs for crickets to lay their eggs and move pinheads outside the incubator to slow their growth. Originally with just 36 crickets, I have thousands of many different ages, but probably five hundred or less breeding adults. They're so much hardier and less aggressive than Acheta and live for months. The nice thing about Gryllodes is that they will eat their dead if you let them die of old age so I have far less smell and phorid fly outbreaks than I did with Acheta. 

The only thing I hate is cleaning and changing out water dishes. But their frass is excellent fertilizer and I got a bountiful grape harvest last year.


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