# 175G Amazon Biotope Paludarium build log (pics + description)



## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

*Intro*

Here's the build log of my overly-ambitious, very expensive, potentially unrealistic but very enjoyable project. The goal was to create a display Paludarium that united the worlds of aquascaping and vivaria, in an environment famous for accommodating both practices. I have always loved the Amazon as a region. The wealth of aquatic, semi-aquatic and terrestrial flora from the area combined with the range of exotic fauna available in captivity made the biotope option irresistible (if tricky at times).

As with many, the project was partially born out of lockdown boredom, but having kept Dartfrogs, fish and many other pets in the past, I had a good idea of what I would need to do from the outset. That being said, I'd like to think I have seen a comprehensive amount of videos and articles about Paludaria, and the considerations when building them. I didn't put a time limit on this project, as I realised that this might take far longer than initially planned. I also need the animals living in here to thrive, breed and have enough space to do so comfortably, and taking the time to ensure I had as much research as possible (as well as enough money!) was crucial.

In terms of the animals, I aim to have 1 of 3 Ranitomeya (Amazonica, Variabilis Southern or Vanzolinii), but am also considering Amazon Milk Frogs or Glass frogs. Underwater, I'm looking to add some tetras, a couple Apistogramma and some dwarf catfish. All of this is up for change and I will have the tank running a while before anything live is added to ensure I have all bases covered.

I will include what went well, what the challenges have been so far, and any recommendations for someone wanting to create a similar build in the future. My plan is to make a longer video with all the video clips I have taken (time-lapse heavy), so keep your eyes out for that if interested!

*Tank*










As modelled by my lovely cat Maya, here is the tank as it arrived. It is a 120cm L x 90cm H x 60cm D (48"x36"x24") custom, with 2 fully removable sliding glass panels on the top, a side sliding panel (only the front 30cm moves), and 3 holes (top left, bottom left, bottom right) as the features. While I didn't know the exact build design (as this would be partially dictated by the hardscape and materials I would be able to acquire) the holes at the back was very deliberate for providing a neat way of attaching an external filter. The access to the inside has been an absolute in pain honestly - getting in through the top would be sufficient in many builds, but due to the height of this tank it makes doing intricate work at the bottom very difficult. The side door helps a lot for the left part, but it makes the bottom right corner the trickiest part to work on. Nonetheless, I am happy with the design, as the overall aim was to have a clear front glass panel - a true display tank.

*Background*










As for the background, I went for the tried and tested expanding foam method. Messy, but effective. I tried to create a ledge to add some more 3D space and levels for the arboreally-oriented frogs inhabiting the tank. The main issue I had here was lumping it on at once: next time I will let the bottom layer dry before adding depth. Because I created a big lump, the deeper part of the ledge still hadn't cured when the rest with a single layer was fully hardened. This didn't make a huge difference in the end but was messy and presumably made it less firm. As for the next build, I will be sure to cure the base layer, before adding extra layers of foam to the bottom - this will add the sense of depth and a smooth gradient will make planting epiphytic plants directly into the background easier. I would also like to foam in some plant pots next time, again for easier planting, but the option of rooted plants.

*Hardscape*










Earlier I talked about 3D space, and this was the main brief for creating the hardscape. I wanted to create a jungle gym with as much enrichment as possible. If I was to lose valuable space to a water feature, it was crucial to utilise every inch of vertical and horizontal space. This of course provides a lot more areas where the frogs might be out of view, but with the size of the viv I have it hopefully will allow more animals to comfortably live in there than a smaller enclosure. Plus, from what I understand, the more hiding spaces the animals are allowed, the bolder they become, conversely.

I placed the tank on its back and foamed the wood into the background, supporting it with anything I could find to stay at the right height. A quick-drying brand of expanding foam, usually firm enough in an hour, was very important here. It meant that the foam would quickly take the strain off the supporting object or the tape holding the wood in place. This helped when trying to install multiple pieces at once and the unavoidable brushes and knocks of wood that is still curing. Of course there were some casualties and re-foamings but by and large this part worked surprisingly well.

*Top view*










This image shows in part the depth I was going for. I tried to vary the positions of the protruding wood, giving branches at each elevation and depth. Overall, a deeper tank would have been even better, and helped with the water feature. When creating a viv with a significant water feature, I really found that bigger is better, and was very happy I went for this size over anything smaller.

*Filter connection*










With all of the foam and substrate mixing done, I installed the pipes of the external filer. I went for an Oase Biomaster Thermo 350 (1,100L/hr), anticipating a lot of things blocking the flow and perhaps reducing it. I expected the open area for fish to be around 15-20G depending on the height that works without wetting the substrate, so this filter should provide ample flow and some of the best filtration. I also hoped that the in-built heater in this filter would help regulate the temperature in the rest of the viv. Almost all tropical fish will be happy at 24 degrees Celcius (75 Fahrenheit), and that is what I plan to roughly keep my tank at during the day. Perhaps here is a good place to address the controversial water feature aspect of Paludaria. As far as I am aware, there are a good few potential warnings associated with water features and dartfrogs and in vivariums in general. I don't think I have absolutely eliminated any risks, but believe I have in some way or another mitigated each major risk factor:

"The water will wet the substrate" - I have used sponge filter media to separate the substrate from the water level. Invariably there will be some wicking, but I don't believe this will fully wet the soil. Either way, I will test this to make sure it doesn't happen, and can always ensure the water level is low enough that it won't be anywhere near touching.

"Dartfrogs can't swim" - A tricky one for sure - and I can't fully ensure that frogs won't drown. From my experience speaking to Ranitomeya breeders I reached out to online and came across in person, water features are not an issue for these more arboreal frogs, and keepers advocated for having one if done correctly before I mentioned my desire to have one. As we all know, Ranitomeya can climb up glass, and so swimming to the edge of the water feature shouldn't be a huge issue, and I will be incredibly careful to build up the river bank area to allow for an easy climb out of the water that way if necessary. There will also be some emersed plants growing by the edge, which should aid the traversal. The frogs inhabiting the tank will all be group-friendly, eliminating the risk of wrestling matches between territorial species resulting in a watery demise.

"It's a waste of space" - Of course, the frogs themselves won't benefit from the water, but by providing at least 55 Gallons (120cm x 60cm x 35cm) minimum area of *usable* space, I hope that a group of 5-8 small, community-friendly Ranitomeya should have ample room to climb and go about their days. I would also lose 6 inches (15cm) of the entire bottom of the tank to a drainage layer, so adding 5-10cm on top of that and repurposing the drainage layer into a water feature to house more fish doesn't seem a terrible trade off to me. Ultimately, more space for the frogs is better, but I feel I am not overcrowding either frogs or fish here.

"Fish can transfer disease to frogs" - Again, a harder risk to mitigate, and I have read papers/articles that warn of pathogen transfer to the sensitive frogs. I don't believe that the frogs will interact with the water area often, or hopefully ever, so I do not perceive there to be frequent rendez-vous between the animals, but I will quarantine animals and buy from the most reliable sources possible to minimise the risk.

I welcome any further discussion and disagreement on this, and ultimately won't add any animals if there are glaring errors. I am more than happy to make changes if there are serious risks and do not want to be too headstrong here. I am a returning dartfrog and frog keeper, but still classify myself as a beginner. "Worst" case, I will greatly reduce the water level to a few cm so it more mirrors a visible drainage layer or a corner pond to easily drain the viv.

*First stage of planting*










And now for the fun part - the plants! Over the course of building this viv I have become a massive plant nerd and will provide a list of the plants used so far. As for the engineering here, I boiled and washed old candle glasses and used them to separate the egg crate from the sponge filter media. I placed a weed mesh over the top of this, and fed the filter's tubes through the back, creating holes in the membrane for them to pass through. The outlet of the filter runs down the left side of the viv and the inlet is under the right hand side. The gap in the middle will be almost totally filled with solid material and leaf litter, but I aim to have a very narrow and shallow creek element leading to the back to add to the depth. I first added bromeliads, some terrestrial plants, and some moss. It was really difficult to plant anything in the soil I had, and the soil itself kept falling down. I had to then address this...

*Planting part 2*










The main change here, was adding some egg crate and another layer of weed mesh to create a lip that would keep the soil in. This gave me much more depth in which to plant. I added a philodendron subhastatum, as well as more plants, and that large root-style piece of driftwood. I am torn about keeping it in, as I feel it adds a lot of dynamism to the tank but it takes up a huge amount of space, and can be quite overpowering. We will see how that goes, but I'm sure another aquascaper will take it off my hands if I end up not using it! At this point I did a successful water test, filling it up high and finding that it didn't have an adverse effect on the terrestrial plants by making the soil wet.

*Planting Part 3*










At this stage, I added leaf litter, seed pots, and some springtails & isopods to start the tank becoming... *bioactive*! I love aesthetic the leaf litter provides and while from all accounts the frogs will barely spend any time on the ground as adults, giving the option can never hurt. Here I added more plants and played around with designs. The Marcgravia umbellata on the right hand side was a highlight for me. I also added a Mistingking starter system here and have it on twice a day to keep humidity high.

*Final planting stage... for now*










Here is how the Palu currently looks. I wanted to leave it so that the expensive cuttings of creeping plants (marcgravia, solanum, and philodendron verrucosum) would grow during my period away from the tank. I added lots of moss to the sides, but will likely remove that from the wood pieces, and replace it with low-growing tropical moss (as I did in some places) when I can propagate more of it. I also added lots of pupping broms, with the hopes that they will form their own canopy and give the frogs egg and tadpole deposition sites for when they hopefully breed. In the centre middle hidden behind some broms is a Marcgravia Spa, and behind the root piece (you can just make out one leaf) is a small Philodendron Verrucosum species from Mindo, Ecuador. I hope to see a lot more of these plants in a few months' time once the viv has grown in.

*Lighting*

For lighting I used cheap 20W floodlights from eBay, and became acquainted with electrical work to connect some in series. In total I bought 8, and will see if these work well for plant growth and frog visibility.

*Humidity*

I used a Mistking starter here, with an extra double nozzle for the middle and an extra single nozzle for the side.

*Filtration*

Oase Biomaster Thermo 350.

*Ventilation*

I leave both the side door and one top panel partially open for ventilation, but plan to add an inlet and outlet fan, with a small section of mesh made to measure in the top.

*Next Steps*

I now have ~2 months until I will be back home and ready to even think about frogs. At that point I will build up the river bank and start creating the aquascape. Until then I'll

*Wait * - for the plants to grow, and viv to establish.
*Read* - as much as I can about Ranitomeya, Paludariums and anything else. As well as any lovely comments from you!
*Plan - *contact breeders, line up potential frogs, think about any more creative solutions to problems that my creation poses.
*Create* - a video detailing this process in a more visually-appealing format!

If you actually read all or even part of that essay - well done! I welcome discussion and constructive criticism as well as any further clarification about anything at all. I have a presentation that I am happy to share with pics and lists of all the plants, fish, and frogs I have considered using in the Paludarium. I also have a budget tracker which is much more painful to look at but nevertheless informative. I'm happy to share anything with anyone, so just drop me a PM. Cheers!

*Plant list*

Philodendron Verrucosum sp. Mindo
Philodendron Micans
Monstera Adansonii
Alocasia Amazonica

Vriesea Hieroglyphica x 2
Vriesea Era x 2
Vriesea Fenestralis
Neoregelia Felix x Midnight
Nidularium Species x 4

Marcgravia Umbellata
Marcgravia Spa
Solanum Ecuador
Peperomia Emarginella
Peperomia Prostrata
Peperomia Rosso x2
Callisia Repens Mini

Begonia Listada
Biophytum sp. Ecuador x 3
Solanum Uleanum x2

Heliamphora Sun Pitcher


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## CR.NM (Jul 2, 2021)

What kind of moss did you use in the background?


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## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

CR.NM said:


> What kind of moss did you use in the background?


I just bought carpet moss from my reptile and amphibian stores online and stuck it on with gorilla glue, plus a small metal pin to secure it initially. Toothpicks also work. Low-growing tropical moss will give a better growth for vivs but for now I wanted to see the coverage. I may end up replacing it in future.


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## papaburt4 (Apr 26, 2021)

I think from the frogs perspective you should add another piece of hardscape to connect the two patches of land. They can navigate the swirly branch if need be but if anybody gets bumped off or falls into the water it could be fatal.


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## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

papaburt4 said:


> I think from the frogs perspective you should add another piece of hardscape to connect the two patches of land. They can navigate the swirly branch if need be but if anybody gets bumped off or falls into the water it could be fatal.


Thanks for this suggestion. I do think the stream will be incredibly shallow and a lot more narrow than it looks here but you’re right - adding extra wood and elements to aid traversal certainly won’t hurt. Cheers


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## Pepepepe (Aug 30, 2020)

you probably know that ranitomeya aren’t great swimers so I would add more land and easy ways to get out of the shallow water just in case one falls in, maybe a bank of sand with really shallow water and branches going out of the water area with easy access


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## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

Pepepepe said:


> you probably know that ranitomeya aren’t great swimers so I would add more land and easy ways to get out of the shallow water just in case one falls in, maybe a bank of sand with really shallow water and branches going out of the water area with easy access


For sure, that is the most important design brief for when I build the bank up. Will likely foam wood in and use drylock, with branches as you say and a gradient up to the top. Thanks


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## Schledog (Apr 28, 2020)

Beautiful tank. Although I personally wouldn't do a pauladium, you seem to have put a lot of though into building this and seem to have a solid plan. I don't keep any and so I'll let you do your own research instead but I have heard that Epidobates are more tolerant with water and are associated with streams in the wild. Perhaps consider those if you aren't set on Ranitomeya.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

maby consider hourglass tree frogs they can probably swim better than any dart


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## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

Schledog said:


> Beautiful tank. Although I personally wouldn't do a pauladium, you seem to have put a lot of though into building this and seem to have a solid plan. I don't keep any and so I'll let you do your own research instead but I have heard that Epidobates are more tolerant with water and are associated with streams in the wild. Perhaps consider those if you aren't set on Ranitomeya.


Thanks for the kind words and understanding haha. Yeah I think they are great - love their colours, breed like rabbits, and I love their call. But the people I live with aren't as keen on constantly loud frogs sadly. I'll rethink and perhaps pitch again because you're absolutely right - from what I've read this more directly mimics their habitat. Cheers


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## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

IshouldBEinSchool said:


> maby consider hourglass tree frogs they can probably swim better than any dart


I would much prefer darts to tree frogs as darts are diurnal, and I'm not as keen on the nighttime activity. If the water feature is too much for darts when I've finished it, I'll either fill it in or reduce it to keep darts, or as you say consider other species like Milk frogs or tree frogs that are 100% arboreal.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Some corrections of factual misinformation:



Paluscape said:


> "Dartfrogs can't swim" - A tricky one for sure - and I can't fully ensure that frogs won't drown. [snip] As we all know, Ranitomeya can climb up glass, and so swimming to the edge of the water feature shouldn't be a huge issue


Dart frogs -- some species, anyway -- can swim pretty well. The 'can't swim' argument is typically a red herring. 

Climbing up glass and climbing up wet glass are two different matters. All my frogs can climb glass to some extent, though some cannot at all when it is wet, and for all species I keep they have more trouble when the glass is wet.




Paluscape said:


> "Fish can transfer disease to frogs" - Again, a harder risk to mitigate, and I have read papers/articles that warn of pathogen transfer to the sensitive frogs. I don't believe that the frogs will interact with the water area often, or hopefully ever, so I do not perceive there to be frequent rendez-vous between the animals, but I will quarantine animals and buy from the most reliable sources possible to minimise the risk.


Dart frogs deposit tadpoles in water. Those frogs will be interacting with the water very often.

Quarantine is done to give time for pathogen-carrying animals to become symptomatic. This doesn't work if the animals in QT are asymptomatic carriers, as with many of the relevant pathogens in this situation, and so doesn't minimize the risk at all. 

"Most reliable sources" -- all fish in the ornamental trade have had contact with all other fish in the ornamental trade throughout the chain of custody from WC locality or SE Asian breeder through west coast US wholesaler to store, through shared holding systems and the lack of disinfection procedures between batches. All ornamental fish should be assumed to be carrying a wide range of pathogens (I worked in the fish trade as a lower level manager for something more than a year, and was involved in a couple transshipments (never again...), and got the opportunity to tour a wholesaler). 

All these same concerns hold for all species of cohabited animals; it isn't a matter of "sensitive frogs" it is a matter of novel pathogens overrunning naive immune systems. Heck, this could even happen to humans.


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## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Some corrections of factual misinformation:


First of all, thank you for your response - can always count on Dendroboard for a some comprehensive information. And Cunningham's Law works very well here 



Socratic Monologue said:


> Dart frogs -- some species, anyway -- can swim pretty well. The 'can't swim' argument is typically a red herring.
> 
> Climbing up glass and climbing up wet glass are two different matters. All my frogs can climb glass to some extent, though some cannot at all when it is wet, and for all species I keep they have more trouble when the glass is wet.


To be clear, I don't think that Dart frogs become pieces of lead when they touch the water, but by searching this forum you would be forgiven for thinking that was the case - I was preempting that response and trying to allay concern even if that were the case. From my understanding of keeping Dart frogs, frogs, toads, crabs etc... Darts are arboreal or terrstrial, but nonetheless amphibians.

So the take away here is that the route in and out of water has to be very simple and from the land section and not the front glass? To reiterate, the plan is not to have these frogs (darts or other) falling in often if at all, with no overhanging branches. Although the possibility of this happening is still there.



Socratic Monologue said:


> Dart frogs deposit tadpoles in water. Those frogs will be interacting with the water very often.


I understand this, but I surely pools in the many bromeliads already there or film canisters I provide will be preferred for egg-laying outright over slow-flowing water? The Darts listed are all non-obligate egg-feeders, and so I would be pulling any eggs or tadpoles (if they somehow got to that stage).



Socratic Monologue said:


> Quarantine is done to give time for pathogen-carrying animals to become symptomatic. This doesn't work if the animals in QT are asymptomatic carriers, as with many of the relevant pathogens in this situation, and so doesn't minimize the risk at all.


I realised after posting that the main mitigation plan here was pathogen testing and then treatment - presumably this would be a much more effective way of minimising risk?



Socratic Monologue said:


> "Most reliable sources" -- all fish in the ornamental trade have had contact with all other fish in the ornamental trade throughout the chain of custody from WC locality or SE Asian breeder through west coast US wholesaler to store, through shared holding systems and the lack of disinfection procedures between batches. All ornamental fish should be assumed to be carrying a wide range of pathogens (I worked in the fish trade as a lower level manager for something more than a year, and was involved in a couple transshipments (never again...), and got the opportunity to tour a wholesaler).


Point taken. I am based in the UK, despite what the flag is saying, but I presume the process is the same. I set up a community fish tank over the summer to become more acquainted with that world, and I can see the lack of care in the wholesale fish trade as well. I will have to think more about this.



Socratic Monologue said:


> All these same concerns hold for all species of cohabited animals; it isn't a matter of "sensitive frogs" it is a matter of novel pathogens overrunning naive immune systems. Heck, this could even happen to humans.


I understand that yourself and others will not likely ever support cohabitation and I do understand the reasons for this. Ultimately I want to give the animals a good life and won't introduce them to the tank if I am too anxious about things going wrong. My plan is to set up a separate tank when I am home (just darts, no water!) and only introduce them if I'm happy to do so and the tank has been running long enough. I will keep Darts, and I will attempt to make this Paludarium, but Darts won't necessarily live in the Paludarium. If the water aspect is too much of a hassle (more than it already is a challenge) then I will remove or massively reduce it and turn into a normal viv.

I do appreciate making corrections rather than anything getting personal or spiteful - and the information you have provided is really useful. Cheers.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Some of this is going to leave the realm of mere 'correction of factual misinformation', which is always hard to stay bound by.



Paluscape said:


> So the take away here is that the route in and out of water has to be very simple and from the land section and not the front glass? To reiterate, the plan is not to have these frogs (darts or other) falling in often if at all, with no overhanging branches. Although the possibility of this happening is still there.


Well, my point was that the fact that Ranitomeya can climb glass isn't necessarily relevant to them climbing wet glass. 



Paluscape said:


> I understand this, but I surely pools in the many bromeliads already there or film canisters I provide will be preferred for egg-laying outright over slow-flowing water? The Darts listed are all non-obligate egg-feeders, and so I would be pulling any eggs or tadpoles (if they somehow got to that stage).


Preferred? Probably. But that's not equivalent to "used exclusively". IME thumbs will deposit tads in an atypical (from their POV) body of water even when there are broms and canisters available.

"Non-obligate egg-feeders" is an ambiguous term -- it either is synonymous with 'facultative egg feeders' or 'not obligate egg feeder' (i.e. not an _Oophaga_). The three species you mentioned (_R. amazonica, R. variabilis, _and_ R. vanzolinii_) are indeed not obligate egg feeders. Vanzolinii is a facultative egg feeder, and the former two are known to produce surprise froglets in the viv (whether those tads survive through detritus feeding or sibling cannibalism isn't usually known in any specific case). 



Paluscape said:


> I realised after posting that the main mitigation plan here was pathogen testing and then treatment - presumably this would be a much more effective way of minimising risk?


Well, I suppose theoretically a person could have the fish swabbed for the really worrysome pathogens -- B.d and ranavirus. Many intestinal parasites of fish are typically diagnosed by necropsy. 

For most of of the known transmissible pathogens, finding a lab able to test may be a challenge, as would justifying the thousands of dollars in sampling and testing costs. Asymptomatic pathogens are harder to test for, as (A) even for known pathogens it is largely unknown which taxa are possible carriers and (B) asymptomatic cases don't test well if the pathogen isn't being actively shed. This is all aside from the fact that there are certainly many hundreds of pathogens that are undiscovered.

The main worry here isn't even so much that one group of frogs (or fish; transmission goes both ways, of course) dies -- this is statistically fairly unlikely anyway (and when it happens, it is very, very unlikely to be diagnosed). The larger worry is that every time species mixing in captivity occurs, that is one more conduit for novel pathogens into captive populations, pathogens that are either detrimental to the species they jumped to, or will be when they eventually jump through an unaffected carrier species to some susceptible species in the future. 

Relative to their captive population numbers, ornamental fish don't return to the intermingled captive pool to nearly the same degree as do darts. Darts are more expensive, and live longer, and are generally viewed as less "disposable" so keepers sell their frogs when they are, to put it bluntly, done with them. There's relatively a lot more small-scale semi-commercial breeding of darts than fish, too. So the almost universally accepted but detrimental practices of fish keepers (cohabitation of different and especially allopatric species) have the potential to harm captive frog populations even more widely. 

Dart frogs are approached, by some keepers at least, much like some of the extinct in the wild locales (and species) of Rift Lake Cichlids, and for the same sorts of reasons -- if we wreck the captive populations, that's all we get.


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## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Some of this is going to leave the realm of mere 'correction of factual misinformation', which is always hard to stay bound by.


To me that's fine - this is discussion after all and it would be unwise to see anyone's words here as canonical - of course keeping frogs in glass houses is itself considered inhumane by many. So opinions are still welcome here as well as correcting what may be factually wrong!



Socratic Monologue said:


> Well, my point was that the fact that Ranitomeya can climb glass isn't necessarily relevant to them climbing wet glass.


To be clear, I was trying to say that glass shouldn't be considered a main avenue out of water, as, as you said, wet glass is harder to climb. Maybe we are saying the same thing here 



Socratic Monologue said:


> Preferred? Probably. But that's not equivalent to "used exclusively". IME thumbs will deposit tads in an atypical (from their POV) body of water even when there are broms and canisters available.


This is interesting to me and I wasn't previously aware of this. Could you elaborate? Was it a water feature? Moving water? Thanks.



Socratic Monologue said:


> "Non-obligate egg-feeders" is an ambiguous term -- it either is synonymous with 'facultative egg feeders' or 'not obligate egg feeder' (i.e. not an _Oophaga_). The three species you mentioned (_R. amazonica, R. variabilis, _and_ R. vanzolinii_) are indeed not obligate egg feeders. Vanzolinii is a facultative egg feeder, and the former two are known to produce surprise froglets in the viv (whether those tads survive through detritus feeding or sibling cannibalism isn't usually known in any specific case).


Understand the confusion, I meant it literally, i.e. not Oophaga. Again, I was not aware of Amazonica or Variabilis creating surprise froglets. Anywhere you could direct me to understand more? Would love to know whether this was from not monitoring them or something else!



Socratic Monologue said:


> For most of of the known transmissible pathogens, finding a lab able to test may be a challenge, as would justifying the thousands of dollars in sampling and testing costs. Asymptomatic pathogens are harder to test for, as (A) even for known pathogens it is largely unknown which taxa are possible carriers and (B) asymptomatic cases don't test well if the pathogen isn't being actively shed. This is all aside from the fact that there are certainly many hundreds of pathogens that are undiscovered.


Ok, yeah on further investigation this seems less realistic than I initially thought. Makes sense.



Socratic Monologue said:


> The main worry here isn't even so much that one group of frogs (or fish; transmission goes both ways, of course) dies -- this is statistically fairly unlikely anyway (and when it happens, it is very, very unlikely to be diagnosed). The larger worry is that every time species mixing in captivity occurs, that is one more conduit for novel pathogens into captive populations, pathogens that are either detrimental to the species they jumped to, or will be when they eventually jump through an unaffected carrier species to some susceptible species in the future.


Hmm yes this is a much deeper consideration and of course I'll think a lot more about this. It's one of those where it's easy for me to think that having 10 fish in the same tank as some dart frogs is unlikely to bear the next b.d. pandemic but at the same time if we all had a very blasé attitude about keeping in general then standards can slip. I really understand the mantra and ethos of you and others on Dendroboard and do get that you want to preserve the species as best as possible. I do care a lot about the long-term health of frog populations and the crossover between hobby and conservation, so I will have to think long and hard about this. But at the same time, "best practice" would presumably require full quarantine and testing of every single animal, alongside sterilisation of pretty much anything in contact with the frogs and overall is unrealistic for anyone to carry out? This is a bit of a ramble but overall I guess it's informed me more on some of the smaller and more intricate issues of mixing, even across species that don't interact. I will definitely think more about reducing the water feature to a shallow element in a corner, integrating the drainage layer (this seems a much better way of conducting drainage to me anyway) with no fish.



Socratic Monologue said:


> allopatric species


I get the concern here, but it really isn't difficult to find solid evidence of fish that live together in nature, and then cross-reference that to a species of PDF (here I took Ranitomeya Amazonica "Blackwater", and the fish are from small flooded forests around the Rio Tigre, like the frogs) to be accurate with stocking. I think it's fair to say I wasn't going for some fantasy viv with Betta fish from Thailand, Dart frogs from South America and chameleons from Africa, but instead 3 fish species likely to be present in the same areas as the darts. Perhaps I didn't express well enough the intention to do a biotope to the best of my ability from plant species to animals. From the last few pics you can see that I replaced Biophytum Sensitivum with Biophytum Sp. Ecuador to be a more realistic representation of South America and the Amazon Basin. 



Socratic Monologue said:


> Dart frogs are approached, by some keepers at least, much like some of the extinct in the wild locales (and species) of Rift Lake Cichlids, and for the same sorts of reasons -- if we wreck the captive populations, that's all we get.


I do understand this, while I have more recently kept tropical fish, prior to this I had a tank of Costa Rican Auratus (no water, no other species!) and definitely do understand not mixing locales etc etc and I admire the dartfrog hobby being so rigorous and holding members to high standards.

All that being said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I certainly won't be too stubborn and go ahead with initial plans if the evidence leads me to conclude it's a bad idea. So again, thanks for the good and positive discussion here and taking the time to address specific aspects of the build. Always important to remember we're all on the same team of creating great homes for animals and them to live long, healthy lives - and grow the captive population. Cheers.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Paluscape said:


> This is interesting to me and I wasn't previously aware of this. Could you elaborate? Was it a water feature? Moving water? Thanks.


Sure. 2.2 sirensis in a viv with a small depression in one corner "to make it easier to siphon out the water" (NB: this is not remotely an easier method, even when it doesn't cause issues). Tads were deposited in the water, tads swam under the barrier into the Matala, tads morphed there, I removed one with more trouble than I'd like to repeat, at least one more died under there while I watched (couldn't remove it).



Paluscape said:


> Understand the confusion, I meant it literally, i.e. not Oophaga. Again, I was not aware of Amazonica or Variabilis creating surprise froglets. Anywhere you could direct me to understand more? Would love to know whether this was from not monitoring them or something else!


I think the cause is that they have evolved to hide their eggs and tads from predators, and they're quite good at it. I almost never see where my thumbs lay (though I let them raise their own, so I don't look too hard).




Paluscape said:


> I get the concern here, but it really isn't difficult to find solid evidence of fish that live together in nature, and then cross-reference that to a species of PDF


That misses the point already made that all species that have been previously cohabbed (e.g. all aquarium fish in the commercial chain of custody, and more and more darts until we collectively get wise about cohabbing) can be carrying (with or without symptoms) unnatural pathogens, as well as a point not yet mentioned here that CB animals (our darts) are immune-naive to all pathogens they've not been exposed to, whether those pathogens occur in their natural range or not.

More generally, I think the amount of mental gymnastics necessary to justify husbandry methods that don't benefit the animals being cared for is itself a red flag that a lot of keepers simply see as a stop sign. If an enclosure design or stocking plan involves a number of points at which it is necessary to "minimize risk" perhaps a design or plan with less risks already baked in would be more reasonable. The number of captive species for which allospecific cagemates are a net benefit rounds to zero; when approaching animal care from the POV of optimal conditions for the target animal, cohabbing with other species almost never appears as a relevant option.


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## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> More generally, I think the amount of mental gymnastics necessary to justify husbandry methods that don't benefit the animals being cared for is itself a red flag that a lot of keepers simply see as a stop sign. If an enclosure design or stocking plan involves a number of points at which it is necessary to "minimize risk" perhaps a design or plan with less risks already baked in would be more reasonable. The number of captive species for which allospecific cagemates are a net benefit rounds to zero; when approaching animal care from the POV of optimal conditions for the target animal, cohabbing with other species almost never appears as a relevant option.


Yeah through a few comments here, I have better ideas about the direction of the build, and as a principle I am understanding the "less is more" approach for sure. Now I'm thinking a small pool as the water feature and Santa Isabels as the animals could be a great idea for stocking. I'm 1000s of miles away from the tank for a good few months yet so there is no danger of anything going in prematurely 

Not too sure "mental gymnastics" is an accurate description of what I thought was productive discussion, but to each their own!

Thanks for talking about your own experiences, it gives more context to what is being said.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

Cool build. I love the scale of it.

Consider that a pool of water can be part of a simulated wet season. Its becoming apparent to me that controlling breeding via simulated seasonality maybe desirable with SI's.


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## TeddytheFinger (May 8, 2019)

I can't keep moss alive for the life of me.i have a misting system and it always dies! Your tank looks amazing btw


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

Sorry if I missed, but who built your custom tank?

Thanks,
Tim


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## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

TimsViv said:


> Sorry if I missed, but who built your custom tank?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tim


I'm based in the UK, but it was just an aquarium building company


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