# Fly Media



## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

Just curious who is all using what media currently? I am still using the repashy super fly.. However, I am looking to order a LARGE quantity of it.. Mainly thinking about a 5 gallon bucket to just have on hand.. Is the media like our supplements and do the vitamins and what not "expire" within 6 months to a year? What are some things I should make note of in keeping a large quantity of media at hand. Also, I have noticed with my cultures using both coffee filters and excelsior they only last about 2 weeks.. Meaning, set up on a friday.. they are booming by the following friday.. and than done by the next. Cant seem to get more than a few feedings out of each culture... Its worked thus far but just curious if there are any suggestions. Thanks!


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## fluffysmom (Jan 14, 2014)

I currently use the media sold on snailtail.com. It had produced lots of FFs and continued production for 2 months sometimes.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I'm using a combo of Flymeat's and Josh's with added SuperPig. I figure if I squeeze some chicken blood on it, run around it three times with a bone in my nose while doing a chant, I will maximize my production. Thoughts?


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## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

fluffysmom said:


> I currently use the media sold on snailtail.com. It had produced lots of FFs and continued production for 2 months sometimes.


Same. I get terrific fly yields from it. Snailtail is the only media I've used and I've been given no reason to switch.


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

IM using Superfly, I find Boiling the water really mixes it better & helps prevent premature drying out.  It doesnt mold over at all & although it can be a bit pricey you use only 3 level tablespoons to make a big culture when you boil water..I have a lot of frogs so its key for me to have media that will give me 2 large booms per culture or at least 4 weeks minimum.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nismo95 said:


> Just curious who is all using what media currently? I am still using the repashy super fly.. However, I am looking to order a LARGE quantity of it.. Mainly thinking about a 5 gallon bucket to just have on hand.. Is the media like our supplements and do the vitamins and what not "expire" within 6 months to a year? What are some things I should make note of in keeping a large quantity of media at hand. Also, I have noticed with my cultures using both coffee filters and excelsior they only last about 2 weeks.. Meaning, set up on a friday.. they are booming by the following friday.. and than done by the next. Cant seem to get more than a few feedings out of each culture... Its worked thus far but just curious if there are any suggestions. Thanks!


Any vitamins in the mix will degrade over time due to oxidation, you would need to either store it in some way that it won't be exposed to humidity, oxygen, heat, or light (some buckets are transparent and let some level of light penetrate). 

The length of time your cultures last is highly unlikely to have anything to do with the media. It's due to the genetics of your flies. See the thread here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/42419-genetics-ff-culturing.html

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

InvertaHerp said:


> Same. I get terrific fly yields from it. Snailtail is the only media I've used and I've been given no reason to switch.


How about a probable insufficient level of carotenoids? Looking at the media, it appears to be a Carolina Biological Supply CO variation. Those medias recipes typically do not contain sufficient carotenoids. A blind fruit fly in a culture isn't at much of a disadvantage.... 

The length of time the media is functional has less to do with the quality of the media and more to due with the genetics of the flies and moisture content of the media. 

I'm always disappointed when people are touting production as a desirable quality of a media. Virtually all of the medias will have good production provided the flies aren't genetically selected for intolerance to environmental conditions in the cultures. In addition, production doesn't indicate in any way that a quality fly is being produced. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> I figure if I squeeze some chicken blood on it, run around it three times with a bone in my nose while doing a chant, I will maximize my production. Thoughts?


I do the same but usually sacrifice a banana along with it.


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

Ed with That being said about carotenoids not being abundant in most medias & Vitamins breaking down under different conditions theyre sujected to within cultures, what media do you use or recommend?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> I'm using a combo of Flymeat's and Josh's with added SuperPig. I figure if I squeeze some chicken blood on it, run around it three times with a bone in my nose while doing a chant, I will maximize my production. Thoughts?


I've found that following feng shui rules when making the cultures and orienting them in a line to true north gets me around the need to do all of the above. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tincman said:


> Ed with That being said about carotenoids not being abundant in most medias & Vitamins breaking down under different conditions theyre sujected to within cultures, what media do you use or recommend?


For a long time I used a Carolina Co Media recipe (and Carolina media from time to time) but added carotenoids to the media mix myself. Before the data came out about frogs having issues with beta carotene I added spirulina to the media at a rate of one teaspoon to 1/2 pound of media. (see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/8534-spirulina-your-cx-media.html) 
After the issues with frogs and beta carotene came out, I substituted astaxanthin for the spirulina and had good results with it including deepening of red and orange colors. Later on I switched over to the Superfly as it provided the best carotenoid variation. See my review here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/67766-repashy-superfly-7.html#post608267 

Does that help? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Hi Ed. In the post you referenced above you stated:

"...The reason is that on analysis, the larvae do not appear to store other carotenoids, however small amounts of carotenoids adhered to or ingested by the larva may be carried to the consuming animal. The adults do not store carotenoids in excess of those needed for the formation of rhodopsin and the quantity of carotenoids in the digestive tract is suspect due to the rapid turnover of the gut contents (approximately 6 hours). This gut transit time is so rapid that unless the flies are immediately consumed, they may be able to void their entire gut contents.... "

Do you still recognize the above statement as fact after the release of Carotenoid Supplementation Enhances Reproductive
Success in Captive Strawberry Poison Frogs? Forgive me for not re-reading the entire study. Frankly, you are able to draw a better conclusion than I on this stuff and I'm hoping you will just give me the Cliff notes. I added SuperPig to the fly media I was using because of that publication. Did I do the right thing?

I will try SuperFly next.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Hello Ed,

So due to frogs inability to readily process beta carotene you see no advantage to the inclusion of spirulina in the FF media or in the diet of the frogs? I'm sure the pigments and other nutrients in it have some benefit(I am long out of phycology so my pigment knowledge is fairly cloudy now). Sometime I or someone else will need to research and write a thread on this stuff. My understanding is that carotenoids is a broad term for various pigments of which astaxanthin is a subgroup.


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## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

Ed said:


> For a long time I used a Carolina Co Media recipe (and Carolina media from time to time) but added carotenoids to the media mix myself. Before the data came out about frogs having issues with beta carotene I added spirulina to the media at a rate of one teaspoon to 1/2 pound of media. (see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/8534-spirulina-your-cx-media.html)
> After the issues with frogs and beta carotene came out, I substituted astaxanthin for the spirulina and had good results with it including deepening of red and orange colors. Later on I switched over to the Superfly as it provided the best carotenoid variation. See my review here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/67766-repashy-superfly-7.html#post608267
> 
> Does that help?
> ...


So snailtail isn't good? I have a bunch of media and don't particularly want to buy more right now.


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

Thanks Ed, Ive also been using Superfly for a while now, but I havent always added the carotenoids. I have been doing it more consistently now.. Hopefully I can duplicate your results with deeper reds & healthier frogs overall.


Ed said:


> For a long time I used a Carolina Co Media recipe (and Carolina media from time to time) but added carotenoids to the media mix myself. Before the data came out about frogs having issues with beta carotene I added spirulina to the media at a rate of one teaspoon to 1/2 pound of media. (see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/8534-spirulina-your-cx-media.html)
> After the issues with frogs and beta carotene came out, I substituted astaxanthin for the spirulina and had good results with it including deepening of red and orange colors. Later on I switched over to the Superfly as it provided the best carotenoid variation. See my review here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/67766-repashy-superfly-7.html#post608267
> 
> Does that help?
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> Do you still recognize the above statement as fact after the release of Carotenoid Supplementation Enhances Reproductive
> Success in Captive Strawberry Poison Frogs? Forgive me for not re-reading the entire study. Frankly, you are able to draw a better conclusion than I on this stuff and I'm hoping you will just give me the Cliff notes. I added SuperPig to the fly media I was using because of that publication. Did I do the right thing?


I still recognize the fact but it has to be qualified.. It occurred to me awhile ago that the data could be skewed due to the type of media that is being used to feed the larvae. So the fact that little in the way of carotenoids were detected is valid, but the conclusion has to be qualified because you can't detect what isn't in the media for the flies in the beginning. 

I would suggest using as diverse a source of carotenoids as possible in the media.. you can stay with your current media and simply add Superpig to the mix or you could track down sources for each to make your own custom blend.... There are six carotenoids that are most commonly detected in anurans. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

InvertaHerp said:


> So snailtail isn't good? I have a bunch of media and don't particularly want to buy more right now.


It's fine if your "metric" is production but "production" isn't really a valid metric since it is heavily impacted by other things like environment and gentics of the flies. 

You can keep using it, just bump up the carotenoid content and make sure your using a supplement with a good variety of carotenoids. I think I was pretty clear on this in multiple threads going back close to a decade now.... As I noted above, it appears to be deficient in the carotenoids that benefit the frogs or even prevent the flies from emerging without sufficient levels of rhodopsin. 

As I noted above, recommending a media based on production is really pretty useless as this ignores the most nutritious fly..

I should also note that they make claims on adding things like vitamins and minerals to the media. It would probably be in your interest to find out what is added as some of these can be a problem. I'm going to suggest reading the link to Repashy's review I provided earlier to give you some indications *of what you need to look for*.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Sorry to pester you another question Ed. I hope you consider my question. Do you add SuperPig to SuperFly or do you believe it is the best it can be with what we know today.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> Sorry to pester you another question Ed. I hope you consider my question. Do you add SuperPig to SuperFly or do you believe it is the best it can be with what we know today.


People need to keep in mind that I'm still manipulating diet and carotenoid content I feed my frogs... I use the Superfly but instead of trying to further increase the carotenoid in the fly media, I manipulate the amount in the dusting supplement. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

I was just going to mention that it would make a lot more sense to me to supplement via dusting rather than entursting fly to eat and pass on the vitamins i am after...

Much more control with this method...


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

ckays said:


> I was just going to mention that it would make a lot more sense to me to supplement via dusting rather than entursting fly to eat and pass on the vitamins i am after...
> 
> Much more control with this method...


 It makes even more sense to do both. Right?


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## fluffysmom (Jan 14, 2014)

I would imagine that using too much of any supplement would be bad just like it is for people


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

ecichlid said:


> It makes even more sense to do both. Right?


Not to me. Too much uncertainty in what the fly is passing on, if anything. No means of quantifying what the vitamin levels I am actually providing are through the flies. 

Through dusting I can at least control the amount and balance of vitamins I am dusting with. Granted this is imperfect too. Flies can clean themselves before being snatched up etc, but it in my mind, it gives me a much better level of control. 

My goal is not to get as much of a vitamin in the frogs as possible so I don't see a need to do both. As mentioned, there can be too much of a good thing.


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## dsaundry (Sep 29, 2011)

Repashy for me as well.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ckays said:


> Not to me. Too much uncertainty in what the fly is passing on, if anything. No means of quantifying what the vitamin levels I am actually providing are through the flies.
> 
> Through dusting I can at least control the amount and balance of vitamins I am dusting with. Granted this is imperfect too. Flies can clean themselves before being snatched up etc, but it in my mind, it gives me a much better level of control.
> 
> My goal is not to get as much of a vitamin in the frogs as possible so I don't see a need to do both. As mentioned, there can be too much of a good thing.


There is a difference here between vitamin and carotenoid. Some carotenoid can have pre-vitamin activity in that they can be converted to vitamin A but there is actually a pretty good picture of what the flies will pass on with respect of the fat soluble vitamins (see references here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/67766-repashy-superfly-7.html#post608267_ . For example, vitamin D (D and D3) is used by the flies as a building block for cholesterol and vitamin A is pretty much only found in the eyes in the form of rhodopsin. The metabolic need of the flies for vitamin A is really very small. This is contrasted to vitamin E (tocopherols) which can be stored by the flies to potentially hundreds of times the level in the media. This is why I don't suggest people put their old vitamins into the media as it can result in variations in the uptake ratios of A to D3 to E. 

This however needs to be contrasted with the carotenoids. Many carotenoids aren't toxic even in high doses for example, beta carotene, and lutein, while others like beta cryptoxanthin require high doses before toxicity is noted. One of the reasons it requires such a high dose to reach toxic levels is because there is a limited amount that can be absorbed orally. It requires fats to be present before it can be absorbed. 

This is before we take into consideration that carotenoids play multiple roles in anuran metabolism including vitamin A activity (for some not others), pigmentation, and anti-oxidant as a result, it is going to be hard to overdose the frogs on things that are pretty much non-toxic, and won't disrupt vitamin/mineral absorbtion. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I don't see any additional control in the amount of supplements with dusting versus ingestion, for exactly the reasons you cited. In fact, I would say there is less control with dusting.

I want to feed the healthiest flies as possible to my frogs. To say you don't because you can't control it like you can with dusting appears to me to be flawed logic.

From what I have been told, in the wild, these frogs are eating ants and mites which are rich in the stuff that SuperPig supplies.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> From what I have been told, in the wild, these frogs are eating ants and mites which are rich in the stuff that SuperPig supplies.


I don't think we can make the claim that the ants and mites are rich in carotenoids as of yet (at least I can't find a lot of information to that effect) see for example http://users.utu.fi/sayrhe/Eeva_JCE.pdf 

I think the problem has a lot more to do with the demands that are placed on the frogs in captivity including hugely expanded reproductive cycles as compared to the wild. People forget that carotenoids are important in the provisioning of the egg but egg formation and deposition is driven by calories and fat stores which as a result means that eggs can be deposited with insufficient nutrients resulting in reduced viability. 
In the wild reproductive periods are relatively short (in some dendrobatids males may only hold territories for a few weeks at a time) which allows a long period to replenish nutritional reserves spent in reproduction. In captivity, large amounts of relatively calorie dense foods are provided in large pulses at short intervals. These pulses historically have been deficient in the carotenoids which had no small part in why captive bred and long-term captive frogs were considered inferior to wild caught frogs because of the loss of color intensity. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Thank you for the correction Ed.


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## ForbiddenFrogs (Feb 5, 2013)

NEherp every time simply the best


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