# Noob Q's



## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

Hi -
I've been reading the boards off and on for a coupla weeks - One of my reef buddies (I'm a nano-reefer in case anyone's wondering about my screen name ) introduced me to PDF's during a visit to his place. He actually told me about this board

Anyway, I'm beginning to get the hankering for building a 10g vert viv for a couple of little frogs - I've searched and found lot's of great threads concerning this area. 

One thing though that I fail to see is, Where does the power cord (from pump ) exit the viv on a vert? Do you guys dill the tank or run it out the vent?

I was at a petswap last weekend looking at vivs, but I never thought to pay attention to this.

This is probably the first of many potentially stupid q's that I'll post as I further research this hobby. I promise that I will try and use the search fuction so that I do keep repeating commonly asked questions.

Thanks! 
Yankee


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## masterbreed (May 9, 2006)

for a pump id drill a hole


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## titan501x (Dec 7, 2006)

i second that, drill a hole.

nice name, hahahaha :lol: . did u mean it to be like that or did you make the name then notice it later?


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

Thanks for the replies

As for my screenname - I'm first and foremost a saltwater reef guy - Yankeereefer is the name I use on nano-reef.com and reefcentral.com

For me it's just easier to keep track of who I am  

I have some diamond tip dremel bits - I've been avoiding trying to drill tanks, but here goes another reason to give it a shot!

YR


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I was pondering the same question back in July when building my first vert. I opted to skip the pump and just have a small pond in each tank. Before that choice, I was going to run the wire up the back, over the top in the corner, then out the top side corner of the vent frame. I was also going to silicone in a piece of tubing either whole, halved, or quartered, as a conduit to run and hide the wire in.

EricG.NH


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## hoyta (Jan 18, 2006)

*yeah*

i'd say skip the pump all together on a 10 gallon. they don't have that much space in the first place. as said before, stick to a small pond, or something along those lines.
good luck, and welcome! i'm actually starting a 65 reef soon. damn initial cost is killing me


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

Wouldn't a pond require some kinda pump for circulation (to keep water from becoming stagnant)?


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## titan501x (Dec 7, 2006)

yankeereefer said:


> Wouldn't a pond require some kinda pump for circulation (to keep water from becoming stagnant)?


put a bubbler in it.


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## O2 Plastics (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: yeah*



hoyta said:


> i'd say skip the pump all together on a 10 gallon. they don't have that much space in the first place. as said before, stick to a small pond, or something along those lines.
> good luck, and welcome! i'm actually starting a 65 reef soon. damn initial cost is killing me


They're not that expensive unless you're keeping sps. Lighting is the biggest expense in the hobby.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I use a hinged glass top on almost all of my tanks, the back of which is fitted with a plastic flap that can be cut out to fit any wiring or tubing. Even if you don't use a pump, you still need to put in a bubbler tube somewhere if you want a water pond of some sort, as well as tubing to sump it out and replace the water when needed. Being a reef guy, you should be familiar with the hinged glass tops with the fitted plastic flaps. They work very well on dart tanks, too.


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

This was going to be a vertical tank and for aesthetics, I don't want to run the wire out the front of the tank.

I like the vertical setup (for space saving), but I really want waterfall, drip wall or other water feature. I may just drill it or make the tank a horizontal viv and run it out the top.

I was using the 10g size cause I have 2-3 of 'em sitting around - I may have to upgrade to get what I want or (as it seems) to partially satisfy my addiction. It happened this way with my nano tanks

YR


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## titan501x (Dec 7, 2006)

if you drill, DO NOT DRILL THROUGH THE BOTTOM!


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

titan501x said:


> if you drill, DO NOT DRILL THROUGH THE BOTTOM!


Thanks, I know about tempered glass - If I go vertical, I'd drill through the top (which, horizontally would be the side)

YR


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## fleenor1 (Feb 18, 2005)

If you go with a pump and drill the glass I would cut the plug off of the cord. That way you won't have to drill that big of a hole in the glass if you don't want to. It is only about $2 to get a new plug end at Home Depot and they are simple to re-connect.

That is just my 2 cents....

Later,
Brad


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## titan501x (Dec 7, 2006)

fleenor1 said:


> If you go with a pump and drill the glass I would cut the plug off of the cord. That way you won't have to drill that big of a hole in the glass if you don't want to. It is only about $2 to get a new plug end at Home Depot and they are simple to re-connect.
> 
> That is just my 2 cents....
> 
> ...


or, if ur good, u can just reattach the same cord.


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## mascencerro (Jan 17, 2007)

yankeereefer said:


> Hi -
> I've been reading the boards off and on for a coupla weeks - One of my reef buddies (I'm a nano-reefer in case anyone's wondering about my screen name ) introduced me to PDF's during a visit to his place. He actually told me about this board
> 
> Anyway, I'm beginning to get the hankering for building a 10g vert viv for a couple of little frogs - I've searched and found lot's of great threads concerning this area.


So, I'm not the only one that is from NR that recently got into pdf's 

I got interested in them looking at Six's pics of their vivs and thought, that is dang cool. I'm also building a 10 gal, was vert then decided to to horizontal after toying with front face for too long. When I get aquainted enough and get a little time in, I'll probably order an insert for another 10 and turn it on end, but for now I'm staying laying down.


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

mascencerro-

I logged on this morning to check this thread and saw your name - I thought "that looks familiar!"  

I saw some of the others viv's on NR too - Then I met up with a local to swap frags and he had PDF's - Little did I know it then, but I picked up another addiction.

I'm still undecided between vert / horizontal, but like with my nano, I'm just gonna hang back, read, post and learn here before jumping in.

I found another great local resource last weekend after a frag swap - Turns out we have a "pet expo" every other weekend at our fairgrounds. Tons of snakes, lizards, amph's, etc. Met a local PDF breeder / viv builder - I spent probably an hour chatting with him.

G'luck with your PDF journey - KIT
See you on NR!
Yankee


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Wouldn't a pond require some kinda pump for circulation (to keep water from becoming stagnant)?


Yes it will become stagnant, but as you will find out, you'll be siphoning the water regularly enough that it won't be a concern. 



titan501x said:


> if you drill, DO NOT DRILL THROUGH THE BOTTOM!


That's rarely the case on a 10g tank. 

For the pump, take a piece of 4" PVC and quarter it, silicone it into a corner of the tank. Now you can drill a hole the size of the PVC (yellow area) and have a nice access hole to get to the pump and the cord.

From the top:


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

rather than start another thread with noob questions, I'll continue here

1) Is the compressed coco-stuff what you use for backgrounds or substrate or both? I'm talking about the "bricks" you have to soak

2) I'm investigating substrate mixes - Would the above + jungle mix and sphagnum be a sufficiently draining substrate? This "mix" and leaf litter would be placed on top of a divider, followed by a layer of leca/hydroton on top of a false bottom (maybe)- Does this sound like I',m on the right track?

3) Wood - I'm confused, I've read that grape wood, breaks down and molds, so I've been looking at malaysian wood or "ghost" wood (on Black Jungle) - None of the LFS's around me have anything decently shaped that;s not grape. Should I expect problems if I use it?

4) Don't flame me too hard (I'm a noob in the beginner's forum) - Does anyone use fake wood (I've seen the "build a tree" threads)? I have seen some stuff in the LFS (for reptiles or fish) that would look pretty cool - I could even config. a water feature thru one of them.

Thanks
YR


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

1. I've never used the coco bricks for a background, but have used the tightly compressed coco panels that don't come apart. They are expensive and hard to find, and eventually break down after 3 years or so, but do a nice job holding bromes while they last. I also like tree fern bark panels, especially for drip walls. 

2. The "organic" jungle mix and brown sphagnum works very well for me, as do other organic composts. 

3. Grape wood does break down rapidly in my experience--I just let it do this. Cypress knee lasts a long time, as do other hard woods like mountain mahogany, manzanita, Osage orange, and I have one mountain hemlock root collected in the Sierras years and years ago from an uprooted, sandblasted tree that seems indestructible. This last, is probably not an option for anyone. 

I don't see anything wrong with using the "phony" branches except they DON'T break down or harbor fungi and mosses, and I like things that do. This is just my personal preference. 

4. Sometimes an answer can be perceived as sharper than intended. I get in trouble for this sometimes when I'm actually trying to be satirical or funny with no idea that it is coming off as sounding rude. I don't think most people intend to flame, and the truly nasty folk eventually get put down themselves for it.


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

Thanks Patty

As for the compressed bricks - I was going to soak them (to expand it), then dry it and crumble / rub it into Great Stuff / Silicone

I also like the cork panels - Is this different than the tree fern bark panels you mentioned?

Does the "real" wood actually contribute much the biological processing of plants, poop, etc.? I didn't consider this part of the equation. If I have good enough drainage and good substrate, would that be sufficient to make up for the "false" ornamentation (wood)

Thanks for the reassurances concerning flaming - I post on other boards / forums and sometimes people get out of hand - Folks forget the days that they were noobs themselves - I know forum frequenters dislike repeatedly answerig the same questions - I try and read the forums and use search features whereever possible. Bad attitudes and misconstrued posts can be discouraging for new hobbyists at times. Personally, I tend to have pretty thick skin and a dry sense of humor, so personal attacks don't really bother me.

Thanks again


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I use the crumbled coco bricks on my backgrounds and break them up dry into a bucket while watching the tube. Saves the whole drying thing. I also mix in other things like chunk coco, chunk peat, cypress mulch, long fiber coco, tree fern, or whatever else I have lying around. I'll usually take one of the above and smush it in first, with a layered, horizontal feel and pour on the ground coco to fill things in. 

For wood I've been using mostly cypress, purchased from ebay. I've also used ghost wood, and cork rounds with good success. 

EricG.NH


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Cork bark is actually my very favorite background. I buy it inexpensively in bulk from "the cork store," which site has recently been down, but there are other outlets for it. I only wash the cork, don't sterilize it, and it almost invariably grows some interesting little ferns and mosses if it's kept pretty wet. I've actually used it for a water falls, as well, as it doesn't deteriorate at all. Tree fern bark panels are different from cork. There's a bark layer at the top and then a stiff wiry mesh hangs down from there, about 2 inches thick. The consistency is much like osmunda fiber, which perhaps it is, I'm not sure. Black Jungle usually has these that fit nicely into tanks. They can be siliconed across the back ground, then water dripped down through the fibers from punctured tubing. Java and other mosses will grow on it eventually, and some vines will climb it. The effect is quite pretty. 

I don't think that natural wood is essential for the break-down and cycling. I just like it better because it does support growth of various sorts besides algae. It just depends on what you want.


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## brettlt (Oct 5, 2006)

1. That is what I used over the "Great Stuff." Other people mix in things with the coco fiber for the background, but I did not. I think it looks good.

2. That is basically what I did. I have 3.75" of water, 1/2" air, including the thickness of the eggcrate, then 1" of Leca, then about 2" of my substrate mix, which consists of coco fiber, milled spagnum moss, chopped up oak leaves, natural charcoal, and some sand. I think it is working out well. Next time I would probably use closer to 2" of water.

3. Cypress seems to break down the least followed by ghostwood, Kampas/Malaysian driftwood. At least these are the most common. Grapewood seems to break down fairly quickly. (But some people don't mind the wood breaking down.) I used cypress and Kampas. Cypress from ebay, and Kampas from Josh's Frogs, a sponsor. I like that Josh has rulers next to his driftwood to help determine size and shape.

4. I think it is perfectly acceptable to use fake wood if it looks good. Depending on where it is used it may well be covered with plants within a year or two and you will not be able to see it anyways. But there are some very nice fake pieces now being made. I considered this, but did not find any that fit my application.

Along those lines, I have seen some "cute" enclosures that used children's toys, like a Robin Hood forest playset. It was neat, but I would not personally do it. 

I guess the most important thing is to make it how you want it, while of course providing what the frogs need. You are the one who be looking at it everyday.


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

Here's another few noob questions concerning water features:

I plan a water feature (stream or drip wall) in my 10g vert - They don't have to drain into a pool / pond, right? I can have it run into the substrate or, probably better yet, a rock or pebble landing (which in turn, drains to the false bottom)

I understand that there is a divider between substrate and leca layer, but what about the leca and false bottom?

How far below the false bottom is the water level kept?

Thanks in advance
Yankee

I meant to mention as well - Got the hasp and hinge for my tank today! Woohoo! Talk about taking it slowww


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

yankeereefer said:


> I plan a water feature (stream or drip wall) in my 10g vert - They don't have to drain into a pool / pond, right? I can have it run into the substrate or, probably better yet, a rock or pebble landing (which in turn, drains to the false bottom)


Correct, but not into the substrate as it will get too soggy.



yankeereefer said:


> I understand that there is a divider between substrate and leca layer, but what about the leca and false bottom?


If you're using a false bottom, no LECA is needed. They're (LECA and False Bottoms) just two different ways of accomplishing the same thing - drainage.



yankeereefer said:


> How far below the false bottom is the water level kept?


I try to keep it at least 3/8" or 1/2" below if possible.


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

RGB said:


> If you're using a false bottom, no LECA is needed. They're (LECA and False Bottoms) just two different ways of accomplishing the same thing - drainage.


No Leca / Hydroton? So (from bottom up) eggcrate false bottom, substrate divider then substrate?


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

RGB said:


> yankeereefer said:
> 
> 
> > I plan a water feature (stream or drip wall) in my 10g vert - They don't have to drain into a pool / pond, right? I can have it run into the substrate or, probably better yet, a rock or pebble landing (which in turn, drains to the false bottom)
> ...


Correct, but not into the substrate, as that will get too soggy.


> This is generally true, but I do have one corner bow vivarium with a drip wall/falls that actually goes into some rocks directly over the substrate on one back panel. However the bottom of this vivarium is a marsh planted with all bog or water tolerant plants, and has a couple of shallow rocky pools. It is very wet all of the time, with lots of Java moss, but is however, raised somewhat above the false bottom so the water constantly drips through and isn't stagnant. It also has one drier wall with bromes and vines on cork bark, so the frogs have several choices of where to go. I have P. vittatus in this, and they spend most of their time in the very saturated part. This does work, but you have to choose the plants that are in the very wet substrate carefully, or they WILL rot. I also used a lot of long brown sphagnum in this substrate, which also seems to help keep the soil fresh and not ever stinky. It's been set up about two years or more now, and is doing fine.
> 
> On the other hand, RGB's advice is probably the better way for you to go with a first tank.


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

yes


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

housevibe7 said:


> yes


yes what?


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

Sorry, patty beat me on the send button. Yes as in no leca on top of the eggcrate. One or the other.


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

What about using leca / lava rock on top of the eggcrate (beneath substrate) for landscaping to add height / depth?

Also - I built a screen vent last night and got my glass cut - Should these (or at least the stationary bottom) be installed and leak tested before attempting to work on the background?

Logic says yes, but I figured I'd ask and be better safe than sorry.

YR


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

yankeereefer said:


> RGB said:
> 
> 
> > If you're using a false bottom, no LECA is needed. They're (LECA and False Bottoms) just two different ways of accomplishing the same thing - drainage.
> ...


She's saying yes to the post of yours I've quoted above. A false bottom is used in place of a drainage layer (Gravel or LECA [Hydroton is a brand name, LECA is a generic descriptive term]). So you're correct, from the bottom up you have a false bottom, substrate divider, then substrate.


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

yankeereefer said:


> What about using leca / lava rock on top of the eggcrate (beneath substrate) for landscaping to add height / depth?
> 
> Also - I built a screen vent last night and got my glass cut - Should these (or at least the stationary bottom) be installed and leak tested before attempting to work on the background?
> 
> ...


TTT


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

*More Noob ?'s*

Got a piece of wood tonight for my 10g vert- It's a pretty neatly shaped piece of malaysian wood.

Wood Questions:
- Is this gonna leach much as it gets wet from misting? 
- Do I need to change water out much during the tank's cycle? (because of any leaching)
- Will it (leaching) cause any harm to any mosses / plants that I have in the viv during cycle phase?
- What's the best way to affix this wood to the glass? Great Stuff?, Silicone then Great Stuff or just silicone?

Film Canisters:
I've seen some viv's with these attached ith suction cups - I've seen others with the little canisters in the GS background - 
-For those in the GS, are they put in while GS is wet / expanding, or cut in after the GS is cured? 
-Should the canisters be removeable? Is this possible if installed while GS is "wet"?

Bark "Tubes": 
- Are these okay to use (semi wet environment) - They're from ExoTerra I think - They're like half of a hollowed out tree trunk - I guess they're hidey holes for lizards, snakes and such

Lastly, I found some coco fibre "sheets" at the pet store - They're about 1/4" thick - They're supposed to be "mats" for hermit crabs to climb on - I was considering siliconing some of these to the sides of my viv, but was worried they wouldn't be thick enough - Thoughts?

I'll likely be attaching the wood tomorrow night and then following up with substrate addition Sunday maybe. I am fortunate to have an amph/rep swap every other weekened, perhaps I'll find more interesting stuff - I'd like to find a nice piece of cork to put on the back wall.

I'm probably gonna skip the h2o feature I originally planned - I'm gonna go with a 3 or so inch layer of lava rock (Can't find leca or hydroton around here) - screen divider, then Orchid Bark mix topped with sphagnum or other green moss 

Thanks for putting up with my noobness - Any futher pointers would be sorely appreciated!

YR


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

I can't add too much here but I think:

Most people sillicone wood to the tank walls and then put great stuff around it. If the wood has any weight to it the great stuff will pull away from the tank wall. If it's anchored first with sillicone the night before it's not going anywhere. If the wood is small you can put it in the great stuff immediately after you spray it. Just make sure the tank is laying flat and let it settle and dry. Also you only have one shot. Make sure you know exactly how you want the wood to look, because teh GS will stick to anything and everything. Great stuff is your best friend and worst enemy, usually in the same 5 minute stretch.

Before I put any wood in a tank I'll scrub it and then boil it. After that's done I wouldn't worry about it in the tank, the stuff that you'd worried about would have been boiled and scrubbed away so leaching isn't an issue. 


Canisters in wet great stuff aren't going anywhere. I think most people like to have them accessible so you may want to stay away from that.

Hope this helps a little...


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## JBR (May 8, 2006)

when I attached my piece of wood I just cut the wood so that it was flush and greatstuffed it to the side. I turned it on it's side so the weight would be pushing it down. It has been attached to the side for over a year now with zero movement.









here is a picture of the tank just after it was set up (it looks completely different now)


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

JBR: I'm going to try your method myself on my new project--a 180 gallon. 

YR: The wood leaching won't hurt anything, but when I have a water feature, I usually run it for about three weeks, do a few water changes, just until the foam has dissipated and the water lightens up a bit. It will be pretty brown at first. But now if you've decided against a water feature, you don't have to worry about that part. 

The bark tubes or half rounds are O.K. Unless they are cork bark rounds, which I don't think you are referring to, they will eventually discolor a bit where they get wet, but in my experience, they last quite a while and are innocuous. 

I've used the thin coco sheets on the background, usually behind cork or something else, and they will tend to peel away, and aren't thick enough to be very helpful in holding plants. However, since I bought a lot of this stuff in bulk, I do use it between the drainage layer and the substrate as another kind of filter. 

Lava rock is an excellent drainage material, although it is a bit sharp to incorporate in the soil where the frogs may contact it. I live in a volcanic area, where there is an abundance of all kinds of lava rock of various consistencies. I have built falls and made "cliffs" from the "ropey" lava, which is smoother, and use the cinders and sharper rocks for drainage a lot. The porosity of it harbors nitrifying bacterial colonies, and I believe keeps the tanks "sweet."


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## yankeereefer (Jan 24, 2007)

Thanks for the tips -

The lava rock will be beneath the substrate and out of the frogs reach - I may buy a pkg of the coco sheet and add as a filtering / protective layer as you suggested.

Got some cork bark this morning at the reptile swap - If any of y'all are close to or visit the Chicago 'burbs, I highly recommend swap held every other weekend at the DuPage Cty Fairgrounds - Google Lee Watson's Reptile Swap or PM me

Installed the cork with silicone this afternoon anfter spending an hour or so trying to get it to fit nicely with the manzanita wood I bought the other day - Gonna pickup some GreatStuff and substrate mix tomorrow to fill in and frog proof some of the gaps

Is it OK to just use sphagnum in some of the gaps? I want to be able to stick moss or plants in some of the holes later.

I'll post some pics once the silicone dries and some of the filler work is completed.

YR


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