# Leaf Litter Debate



## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm just curious what people think makes a good leaf for leaf litter??

I've noticed the two most popular leaves used are oak and magnolia... Why?

Is it because they last longer in the viv? Look better? Aren't toxic? Promote mold growth for micro fauna? 

Just want to get to the bottom of what makes the perfect leaf... I'm using sea grape leaves now after I was told by some other Florida froggers that they work great. So far so good... They look good and should hold up well...

Again, I want to hear your opinions and facts!!

JP


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## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

I like live-oak leaves, they are thick like magnolia leaves, but much smaller. They take forever to decompose.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

i use what ever i can get. If it breaks down fast, its food for the bugs. I mostly have a mix of pin oak and mag leaves in all my tanks. But I add apple/pear and some other random stuff.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Good leaf litter is non-toxic, holds up in the viv a decent amount of time (not forever - want the leaves to break down some and provide springtail food!), and creates some areas for the frogs to hide - ie live oak works, but the leaves are very small, and don't provide near the hiding places/visual barriers as larger leaves, such as southern magnolia. 
Also, good leaf litter is collected off the ground from an area that pesticide/herbicide/insecticide free. Leaves expel chlorophyll and other pigments in preparation to fall off the tree - leaves lacking these pigments tend to last longer in-viv and mold less. 
Personally, for new vivs, I prefer to put down a later of faster-decomposing leaves (such as northern magnolia), followed by a layer of a longer-lasting leaves (such as southern magnolia - my all time favorite leaf for vivaria). This seems to promote a healthy population of springtails. I then add leaves once or twice a year, as they decompose.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I like LL that looks "exotic" or tropical....i.e....not oak ect.

The other above info , I also agree with.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

besides all the extremely good advice above
ive found it really makes a viv look "finished"


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## speedsport (Sep 11, 2005)

This is kind of on topic. How do you safley clean leaves you get? 

Also are there any leaves that ar toxic?


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

The leaves I'm using... the sea grape leaves, I've been getting from the tree itself before they land on the ground... On top of that a warm water bath with a scrub with a fine bristled brush... Then my personal leaves are nuked for 1 min... It doesn't affect the color or shape I just like to do it to kill any insect eggs that might be on there...

JP


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

I like to use mag leaves their large and provide a lot of cover for froglets and take a while to break down so as theydo break down I add more and it gives a healthy cycle. When I gethe leaves I soak them in boiling water let them air dry then hit them with the nuke. Might be over kill but better safe then sorry


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I use beech,they are readily available to me, stay on the tree once dead, so I can collect them w/o ever havig them touch the ground, they havea nice copery color and oval shape, and dont break down veryfast. I have been putting them between moist non bleached paper towels and nuking for 3 minutes


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

I use magnolia leaves, big and small. I first wash them off in the sink with mild soap and bake them in the oven 200 degrees until they dry out, about 15minutes or so. It also adds a nice smell to the kitchen when I take out the leaves.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

In addition to magnolia, I also like to use rhododendron leaves when I'm looking for leaves that are a bit smaller. They look tropical and have the same qualities as magnolia in terms of breakdown time, etc..


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

I really like indian almond leave leaves they look cool and have anti bacterial properties, but they break down fast and they cost $$$$.

Mostly I use southern Mag because they last the longest.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Colleen53 said:


> I use magnolia leaves, big and small. I first wash them off in the sink with mild soap and bake them in the oven 200 degrees until they dry out, about 15minutes or so. It also adds a nice smell to the kitchen when I take out the leaves.


Please don't wash them with any detergents... virtually all detergents leave residues which since they are surfactants can be irritating (and potentially deadly) to frogs and tadpoles.... Washing Food: Does it Promote Food Safety?


Also for the vast majority of potential issues with gathered leaves can be dealt with by simply throughly air drying them for several weeks. Boiling, baking or microwaving is not necessary and these practices can significantly speed up the rate of degredation by breaking down the cell walls. Unless you are going to treat everything including live mosses in this manner then you really aren't doing anything to protect the frogs as live plants, attached soils and collected branches (particuarly those with crevices and holes) are going to be a much greater risk for introducing unwanted organisms into the enclosure. 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I microwave, pressure cook or bleach bath EVERYTHING that goes in my vivs. I dont mind if they break down a bit faster, I can always get more


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are downsides to the sterile idealogy that has become entrenched.. I have to find the reference but at least metamorphic frogs that are kept as sterile as possible actually have a much worse response to exposure to parasites as metamorphs and adults then frogs that were kept "dirty"... In otherwords, some is good.. all is probably bad... 

I need to find that reference. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I agree wih Ed.......I think we can actually do "too much".....from sanitizing, bleaching, microwaving......the thought of only using distilled or RO water because there "may be _harmful things_ in the tap water".

A lot of unnessary hysteria IMO.


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

That brings up another question Phil... Does anyone mist with tap water? I don't want to start a huge debate about it, mostly becuase there have been so many here. I'm just wondering if anyone deos?

Also, very good point... I don't think anyone can have a TOTALLY sterile environment. Live plants and even fruit flies can introduce all kinds of things... You can't microwave a brom, can you? 

JP


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

There are people bleaching broms with a light % solution.....not me.

I am going to get an RO system going one of these days but ONLY for misting - to keep mineral deposits from screwing up my glass viewing pane and to keep the mist king unit from getting gunked up.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You can mist with tap but there is a lot of variations in tap water and if there is a decent level of dissolved materials in your tap then you will have clogged mist heads and salt deposits on glass and leaves. In addition, if you are using a non-flow through terraria you can get salt buildup where evaporation can occur at high points on the substrate or drip walls. I would have some concerns given that some tap systems can have high levels of phosphates. 


There is a difference between taking reasonable precautions versus becoming paranoid.. plants that were in other enclosures should never be used in with a different frog due to the risk of pathogens.. nor should wood or cork be resused as these cannot be effectively disinfected unless autoclaved until the entire piece reaches a sufficient temperature (which is going to take a long time, think hours...) 

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Can I assume then from your responses that misting with tap water will NOT have a negative effect on the frogs. I'm pretty sure our tap water is pretty good with the everglades aquafer being VERY pure!! In fact many of the bottled water companies get their water from the aquafer.


I'm sure that w/o testing the PH there's no real way to tell for sure. You should know Phil... How's the water in south Florida?

JP


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## laylow (Apr 6, 2009)

Since I dont have an RO system I mist only distilled water. Its about a buck a gallon. For the same reasons as phil I dont want the minerals on the glass and plants. So far so good. 

If you really want RO water but dont wanna spring to buy the whole system, most local fish places have good systems and are happy to sell water out of their systems for little to nothing!! Ive gotten RO anywhere from 35 cents a gallon to free. I just bring in a 5 gallon jug and have it filled!!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

snooknfrogs said:


> You should know Phil... How's the water in south Florida?


 
Wellllll.........since you asked

It's not like the "liquid rock" that we have up here in PA 

BUT

IMO, the minerals in the water up north are GOOD for raising tads.

Florida water is...well...different. You should have it tested and see what you think. I heard of a weird occurrance of a lot of people getting cancer in the greenacres town south of West Palm beach and presumably the water table is "bad" from years of jets dumping thier excess fuel nearby in the late 1950's ect ect......scary stuff even just rumours.

Do you really trust the Everglades underground water? Ever been to Clewston when they are burning the cane' ?


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Haha... I fish in Clewiston A LOT!!! I've been out there fishing and come back with a boat full of soot and ash!! Nasty... It's too bad that the same people that own all the cane fields are the same people running the south Florida water management district.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snooknfrogs said:


> Can I assume then from your responses that misting with tap water will NOT have a negative effect on the frogs. I'm pretty sure our tap water is pretty good with the everglades aquafer being VERY pure!! In fact many of the bottled water companies get their water from the aquafer.
> 
> 
> I'm sure that w/o testing the PH there's no real way to tell for sure. You should know Phil... How's the water in south Florida?
> ...


If you are getting municple tap water then you can get a analysis from the water company. This is a good idea as the water company treats the water to reduce corrosion and precipitation in pipes. This varies from area to area and can include the addition of additive like silicates (not a problem for frogs) to phosphates (potentially an issue). 
Tap water is usually okay but as some Zoos learned the hard way, you really need to check what is in the tap water. 

If I remember correctly a lot of Florida ground water is high in phosphates.. 

Ed 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snooknfrogs said:


> The leaves I'm using... the sea grape leaves, I've been getting from the tree itself before they land on the ground... On top of that a warm water bath with a scrub with a fine bristled brush... Then my personal leaves are nuked for 1 min... It doesn't affect the color or shape I just like to do it to kill any insect eggs that might be on there...
> 
> JP


Can I ask without offense, why you are taking so much precautions with the leaves but are feeding termites that are collected from outside? 

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm not concerned at all! I go get them outside, rinse them off, nuke them for a min or so and throw them in the viv... I collect moss outside for my vivs, some plants, driftwood, and like you said termite's! 

I was asking about the water because I've seen a lot of debate about it and was curious what you guys thought  My original question was just about which leaves are good to use and why...

I like to clean stuff up a bit but though... The variable's that need to be controlled and can be controlled I like to control LOL! 

Hey Ed. I asked a question about feeding termite's in the food and feeding section... Can you take a look at it and make a comment? Thanks

JP


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snooknfrogs said:


> I'm not concerned at all! I go get them outside, rinse them off, nuke them for a min or so and throw them in the viv... I collect moss outside for my vivs, some plants, driftwood, and like you said termite's!


Then why the nuking? I did post a couple of comments on termites.. as well as a crosslink to this thread.. 

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Probably because I read on here that's what to do...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I believe the...."do what you can" theory to a certain degree.

After all....I don't think we can cleanup or sanitize termites.

the LL debate is still on as to whether to use preventative messures and if so...to what degree.

I think, a few years ago, there was a large faction of people who thought very little of the advantages of even using any LL at all ! There were also a lot of.....pillow moss people  that thought lush carpets of moss was the proper substrate.

At least we turned THAT husbandry corner and made LL a necessary component.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snooknfrogs said:


> Probably because I read on here that's what to do...


Should question why... there is enough voodoo in this hobby already.... 

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Between the two threads you're confusing me more than I was before I started this... 

In one hand your telling me just throw dirty leaves andd stuff collected "roughly" into the viv and don't worry about it... Don't nuke, nuke, wash, don't wash......... 

Then you're telling me don't use field swept bugs because they can have all kinds of problems (which I'm sure can be bad in cultured insects as well)...

All I wanted to do is get a simple answer and get some feedback on what to use and why...

So I ask the question, simply. What leaves are good to use? Should you clean them or not?...

JP


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

JP,

Like Ed said.....there is a lot of conjectue and speculation....trial and error in this hobby.

NOTHING is easily answered......there are 50 different FF recipes and 5 different kinds of water, for example.

Let the debates go on for a while...research in the meantime and in the end....you will have an informed idea of what course of action you will take.

It just...won't.....be.....easy......most of the tme


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

And it wouldn't be as much fun if it was!!!! 

I just want to be a good steward for the hobby! As a person that sells things on this site to people in our hobby I feel an obligation to provide things that will HELP the hobby! Not ever be a detriment to it! 

I started keeping dart frogs a loooong time ago, back in the mid 90's. After the hurricane's hit here I left the hobby the last 5 or so years now and the amount of new information and idea is astounding! Then we didn't have good website's like this that we could debate and help further the hobby through sharring great information from VERY knowledgable poeple! 

I appreciate all opinions and love the facts!!!

JP


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

All I can say is that do everything in your power to prevent snails and slugs from getting into your viv (and millipedes and centipedes and nemerteans). I learned that lesson the hard way.
-Mark


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Thanks Mark!!! That's an answer to one part of my question!! 

What, then, do you use?

JP


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

no doubt!!!!! nothing spoils my viv gazing than finding a dracula bud munched by a fu-ing slug


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

markbudde said:


> All I can say is that do everything in your power to prevent snails and slugs from getting into your viv (and millipedes and centipedes and nemerteans). I learned that lesson the hard way.
> -Mark


Not all centipedes are a problem.. Geophilidae centipedes are actually slug and snail predators.. and are very small to boot. 
Nemerteans are a problem.. but again well drying materials that need to be dried works well and the greatest probability of Nemerteans getting into the enclosure are going to be from contaimated soil or live plant materials. 
Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snooknfrogs said:


> Between the two threads you're confusing me more than I was before I started this...
> 
> In one hand your telling me just throw dirty leaves andd stuff collected "roughly" into the viv and don't worry about it... Don't nuke, nuke, wash, don't wash.........
> 
> ...



I think I have been clear on minimal treatment that leaves the leaf's integretity in place as much as possible is the best route to go.. Simple drying deals with most of the problems.. 

Most of the rest is because I asked the question why is it so important to disinfect/sanitize leaves for leaf litter but the same people will dump wild collected insects and associated debris into the tank.... 

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Like in the other thread... 

Do what works and do the best you can to have the healthiest animals possible!

Thanks for your input Ed (and everyone else)!!

JP


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I will continue to boil the leaves for now. Spiders and snails in the viv is my biggest concern. It has nothing to do with the frogs. Just don't want webs all over the place. It doesn't matter if the leaves break down quicker. There's oak trees all over the place here


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## Wug (Mar 1, 2009)

Are rhodedendron leaves ok? They are nice thick leaves, shaped like magnolia leaves but a little smaller. I think would hold up well in a terrarium. But I know they are poisonous. That kinda put me off from using them.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Wug said:


> Are rhodedendron leaves ok? They are nice thick leaves, shaped like magnolia leaves but a little smaller. I think would hold up well in a terrarium. But I know they are poisonous. That kinda put me off from using them.


About rhododendron leaves


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Leaves I have used and were happy with include: photinia, rhododendron, elm, sycamore, oak, magnolia. Maple tends to be too brittle and not last long, but I intend to try some native Bigleaf Maple (Acer macrophyllum) leaves this fall and see how they hold up.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

I just keep the leaves dry for a few weeks then use them, my tanks are dirty.


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## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

If nothing else the maple leaves are great on isopods. They love them as I have to keep replacing them when they eat them up. My isopods just thrive with maple.


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## nurse3766 (Apr 8, 2010)

i collect leaves and bake them at 225-250 for 20-30 min. 
the main reason i do this is to prevent introducing fungus into my tank.

225 is above boiling point for water and should kill almost anything on the leaves.


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## FrogsNdogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I picked up a bag of smaller magnolia leaves from josh at the DuPage reptile swap. they look great in a viv with a smaller footprint wherein the huge mag leaves can be a bit overpowering.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

i use gamble oak and guava leaves, they both break down at a medium rate and i have access to lots of them. the guavas also sometime curl an form nice little tubes for the frogs to explore.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

I use maple leaves for my bottom layer, and tulip poplar for my top layer. The maple leaves break down fast and the springtails really love them. The tulip poplar leaves dont seem to be rotting at all. Its been about 3-4 months and they are still holding up.


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