# Ventilation / recirculation poll



## Carinya (Apr 26, 2008)

I am planning my viv construction and am leaning toward a sealed viv with internal recirculation. In an ideal scenario, how would you handle ventilation to promote frog/plant health as well as manage condensation/fog on the glass for viewing?


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## Carinya (Apr 26, 2008)

bump for a couple more votes.

Just a note, this is not necessarily supposed to represent your current viv, but your ideal scenario.

thanks, everyone.


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## MzFroggie (Mar 22, 2008)

Well I read alot before building my first viv and on Saurian.net it said that frogs don't really need ventilation.They get fresh air when you open up the cage to do whatever.I hope that helps..That is what I do with all of my froggies and haven't had any problems..


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

personaly i think the ultimate would be a fresh air temperature /humidity controlled vent system. im sure it could be done but i dont have time to build one right now. something like the tropic aire system bu ton a larger scale. http://www.backyardstyle.com/shop/index ... page-18202 

so all you engeniers out there get to work.

sean


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Keep in mind: ventilation and recirculation/air movement are two different things. What you want is air movement/recirculation in the viv. The plants will appreciate this, the frogs will prefer it, and it will help prevent pockets of CO2 from building up. Brent has mentioned many times that orchids (and their health in your viv) are a good barometer for the quality of your viv environment. Conditions that create healthy orchids = conditions that create healthy frogs.

Ventilation means you are bringing in air from outside the viv...which is most likely much lower in humidity (and can serve in dropping humidity). In my case, humidity in a room can be around 20%. If this air was vented into a viv, it could very likely cause the frogs to hide and remain in more humid areas (under wood, in the leaf litter, etc.).

I think the best situation for the frogs is to have a sealed vivarium with some sort of decent air movement.


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

great descriptions of the differences ron. 

ive read alot of brents stuff on co2 buildup and it made me change the ways i do things now. 

if you have any links to his co2 posts i think it would be great to post them here. i dont think many people see this as a big of a problem as it really is.

my problem is im hessitant to build out a recirculating fan system in fear of equiptment failure. lets face it cpu fans are not the most reliable peices of machinery under the best circumstances. so for now i opt for simple VENTILATION over circulation. 

ive switched to terrariums from aquariums because i like the fact that the entire viv is refreshed when the whole front is opend up. but at the same time alot of humidity is lost. 

what i would like to have is ventilation at the top of the viv with incoming humidified air at the bottom (possibly even below the leaf litter). this would circulate, ventilate, humidify, and remove co2 build up. does this sound like something that could be simply built and be reliable at the same time? 

sean


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> what i would like to have is ventilation at the top of the viv with incoming humidified air at the bottom (possibly even below the leaf litter). this would circulate, ventilate, humidify, and remove co2 build up. does this sound like something that could be simply built and be reliable at the same time?


The "simplest" way I know people have accomplished this is by humidifying their entire frog room and then allowing for ventilation within the tanks. But that still doesn't allow for air movement...which could theoretically be taken care of if the fronts/tops of the enclosures were screen, and then using recirculating fans in the frog room itself--the air movement would pass through the screen and into the viv.

I don't have any links to any of Brent's discussions on the topic...but in the second issue of Leaf Litter there was a great article by a Dutch hobbyist about CO2 buildup in vivariums. 

My personal enclosures actually don't have any fans or ventilation, and I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the moisture and damp environment this creates. As you said, CPU fans aren't the most reliable or best method (and add them to aquariums where you have to remove the top isn't the easiest thing to retrofit)...but even so, I think the added benefits FAR outweigh the inconvenience.


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

yeah thats a great article as well

anyways that why i like the idea behind the tropic aire thing since it supossedly blows humidified ar through a viv. i just think that its paticular design is a bit small for pdf keepers.

one of these days im going to try to construct something similar but on a bit of a larger scale.

as it is now i have passive ventilation (partial screen top) and rely on temp differences to circulate the air, but i definately would like more circulation than that.


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

For those of you with fans inside the viv, what kind of life do you get out of them? I am running an air pump into my 60 gallon currently, but want to convert to fans. I don't however what to drop $$$ just to burn through fans lose from humidity.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Been running a 2 dollar computer fan from newegg in one of my tanks for 11 months now, tank is usually at 80-100 percent humidity, still running fine.


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

personally, I think that if you have a sealed off viv, with your lights on top it is going to get pretty toasty in there regardless of what the room temp is. I think that some thing like this- http://www.dendroboard.com/parts-construction/topic39455.html is a great idea, but it would be nice if you could some how have a fan in the little system that is sucking in "new" humidified cool air. 

As for fan life, I think that they are highly underestimated, unless they are actually IN your viv, they wont die for quite awhile.


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## asilsdorf (Sep 7, 2005)

My latest viv modification gives me recirculation with variable ventilation. I started with a vertical viv. with a screened vent on the front top. Later I added a fan to force ventilation and try to clear condensation. However, the fan forced ventilation lowered the humidity too much. Now I have added a duct over the vent and fan to make it a recirculation system and the duct has a variable vent in it to draw in fresh air.

I plan to try this on a couple other vivs in the future and also to add a speed controller to the fan. Currently the fan goes on and off with the lights.


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

I have a typical top opening 60 gallon tank that I am going to convert from external air pump via airline tubing to internal fan air circulation. If someone that has used the ADDA waterproof fans wouldn't mind PMing me or posting a link to the site where they go them I would really appreciate it.


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

If someone with electrical knowledge wouldn't mind taking a stab at this problem I would be grateful.
I am going to get four of these fans http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDet ... VyQA%3d%3d I want to find a way to power the fans and possibly regulate the speed of them as a group. I am going to mount them on the inside of my glass top possibly using neo magnets so that I can remove them easily. This project is for this tank










Ideas would be greatly appreciated.


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

On all of my latest tanks I have been using both systems . A fan for internal air circulation and a fan for the for glass condensation . They are both on timers and do not run all the time so there is no problem with the humidiy in the tanks . You can have the glass fan come on when you are there to watch them and have it off when you are at work or whenever. Or in the winter when the humidity is low you can have the fan run not as much . I run the circulation fans between an hour to an hour and a half four times a day . None of the fans run at night , the timers get power when the lights come on. 
The fans are both outside of the tanks for ease of replacement if needed . I have some of my fans , just cheap computer fans , that are over two years old . I just bought 20 - 50mm fans for $ 16.00 + shipping . So if they quit who cares .

The plants in my tanks with the internal circulation do grow better . There are some that say you don't need it for the frogs but since the plants do better it should make the frogs do better . Or for egg feeders if your broms are not rotting and needing replaced frequently you will not loose as many tads or froglets . 

Here is my latest setup . This is a wide tank so I have two fans in each chamber , for my verts I usually use only one fan each .The fans if they go bad can be replaced easily since they just drop in . A simple piece of tape will seal them in . I use clear plexiglass so as not to shield any light from getting into the tank. The fans are in the humid air but since they are not inside the tank they are not getting wet so they should last longer . The front , black painted chamber is for the glass clearing , it pulls air in through the bottom of the front screen below the doors and out through holes under the fans . The back chamber just recirculates the in tank air , it pulls air in through a screened vent hole on one side of the tank , through the chamber and then blows it out into the other side of the tank .


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## morselchip (Jul 17, 2008)

Would so many fans make the tank 'windy'? And has anyone decided/figured out how much air movement is too much? (on that same vein). I really like the look of that recirculating system- might steal the idea for my next build if that's ok


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## alifer (Oct 24, 2005)

I put together my Vent viv back in 06 with internal air circulation using a CPU fan and it's still running fine with the original fan. I like to run my fans at 1/2 the rated voltage to cut the noise level way down. My build link is below for more info. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/10974-nano-cube-24g-vent-viv.html

-Rick


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

I choice other because I have both sealed vivs and vivs with partial screening on them. I also use fans on top of the tanks for cooling the light mainly so I do not know if that counts as anything, otherwise I would say its 50/50 with my setups. Generally the verticals have screening and the horizontals are all compelety sealed for the most part. 

I do howver notice more calling and activity in the completey sealed tanks.


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## jausi (May 14, 2008)

I just build my first terranium/viv and I was wondering if I shuold use a $5 fen that they sell in walmart instead of those cpu fens to make the air move around, is that a good idea??


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## ChrisATX (Oct 7, 2008)

Mac said:


> ] is a great idea, but it would be nice if you could some how have a fan in the little system that is sucking in "new" humidified cool air.


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...70-gallon-rainforest-orchidarium-journal.html


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## madadi (Oct 27, 2008)

coolerguys.com has some PC fans with ceramic bearings that are supposedly better in high humidity environments.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

i really like the idea (i think it was brent's but i could be wrong) of completely sealed tanks with a fan mounted inside a pvc fitting with screen on the ends, rolled in silicone and substrate to disguise it (i would do the same with the power cord to make it look like a vine), and just dropped into the tank for recirculation, im building a couple of new tanks now and really considering doing it that way for the air quality, one side reason i like it so much is i think it could keep fumes out since i'm in a building in ny, they paint the hallways sometimes etc, as well as cooking fumes, would a sealed tank really be a LOT safer from that stuff?


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## capitale (Nov 7, 2008)

ChrisK said:


> i really like the idea (i think it was brent's but i could be wrong) of completely sealed tanks with a fan mounted inside a pvc fitting with screen on the ends, rolled in silicone and substrate to disguise it (i would do the same with the power cord to make it look like a vine), and just dropped into the tank for recirculation, im building a couple of new tanks now and really considering doing it that way for the air quality, one side reason i like it so much is i think it could keep fumes out since i'm in a building in ny, they paint the hallways sometimes etc, as well as cooking fumes, would a sealed tank really be a LOT safer from that stuff?


To be honest, the idea of a completely sealed viv raises a red flag for me... especially if your viv is really packed with plants. For one, plants need a fresh supply of CO2 (and O2 at night) that is replenished by gas exchange with the outside air. People that have greenhouses go to great lengths to facilitate ventilation for this reason.
Also, I would imagine keeping your temp down in a sealed viv would be difficult -especially if you have a warm house. The best way to cool a tank is through evaporation. When your RH reaches 100% and there is no way to release some humidity, you lose a huge amount of cooling capacity by inhibiting evaporation and you run the risk of turning your tank into an oven. This is even more of an issue if you have an acrylic tank. IMO 100% humidity is a bad thing for a lot of plants too. With constant 100% humidity, you can stress plants with root systems because they can't transpire as easily and increase the change of root rot.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

I have a sealed viv with recirc system and with I had added some ventilation. In fact, sometimes I partially disconnect the recirc system to allow some fresh air into the viv. 
Here it is recirculating in a completely sealed system:









Here it is letting in just a little room air:









And here it is blowing in 100% room air (I only do this during an emergency overheating situation)









And here is how I sealed up the top. Those caps are sitting on weatherstripping ran along the inside lip of the viv.









Also, with a completely sealed viv the glass is always completely covered in precipitation. It takes about 30 seconds after I wipe the glass of for it to steam up again. Contrary to what is sometimes reported, if you have 100% humidity, no matter how fast you fan blows it will always act to steam up the glass, not to clear it up. Also, I do worry about buildup of CO2 at night. I think a couple of vent holes at the top would help out a lot.
-mark


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## loogielv (Nov 28, 2008)

pigface said:


> Here is my latest setup . This is a wide tank so I have two fans in each chamber , for my verts I usually use only one fan each .The fans if they go bad can be replaced easily since they just drop in . A simple piece of tape will seal them in . I use clear plexiglass so as not to shield any light from getting into the tank. The fans are in the humid air but since they are not inside the tank they are not getting wet so they should last longer . The front , black painted chamber is for the glass clearing , it pulls air in through the bottom of the front screen below the doors and out through holes under the fans . The back chamber just recirculates the in tank air , it pulls air in through a screened vent hole on one side of the tank , through the chamber and then blows it out into the other side of the tank .


 is it possible to get a drawing or paint pic of how this works showing the air flow? or just anythign at all to help explain it? i'm sorta lost, but very intrigued.

As far as the fans, there's a very easy and cheap way to handle all the problems everyone is concerned with. 
Very small fans (typically used on the new video cards) are stupid cheap and will barely blow air. You could add 1 for probably $1 and i bet it would barely effect anything other than air flow. Even if you add 2 or 3 you'd still only be at about half capacity of some of the monster fans I see people putting on their vivs. It's just overkill.

I for one would never do a fully enclosed viv. I would however, consider have only one inlet for my little fan to pump outside air into the viv, and the only way the hot air could escape is through the same inlet, fighting against the airflow back into the viv. Adding an outlet fan to suck tank air outside might be good, might not. I'd experiment, but I have no doubt that you can have your cake, and eat it too with about $3 in fans. And if they break? Seriously? who cares?

by 20 fans at once, and you've spent maybe $50 and you're good for the next 85 years i bet. 

In seriousness, buy 5 fans and you've spent $10 and i guarantee you're good for 5 years.

Heck, if you want a surefire way to get some free old fans, call up computer repair shops and ask them if you can have some. Best Buy, CompUSA (or the non out of business equivalent), actual pc repair shops. Even call up your friends that work in a large corporation and have them ask their IT dept for a few.

edit: as i typed that, i realized i have 17 fans throughout my house (i'm a computer nerd and in the IT industry, so it stands to reason, but still) any pc nerd that has old computers, has old fans. If you pay $4 for a fan, you're overpaying.

second edit: that's not even to mention the waterproof fans you can get. if it's such a concern (and it seriously shouldn't be) grab a waterproof one for like $20 i think. you can even completely submerge them (dont do that


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## jausi (May 14, 2008)

*


[B said:



Even call up your friends that work in a large corporation and have them ask their IT dept for a few.

Click to expand...

*


[B said:


> QUOTE][/B]
> 
> heheheh
> thats i good idea, !!!!
> ...


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## Fish_lover0591 (Dec 16, 2006)

I have a great idea for people who want circulation inside their viv  Will post sketch later


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## Fish_lover0591 (Dec 16, 2006)

Basically the fan moves air from the back of the tank to the mid / front. I think it might be helpful. Only problems I see is going to be drilling if you have a glass top. I need to build one first & work out issues. The size isn't correct! I won't know how big it is till I make one  The part the base will be made out of is plexi maybe, the pipe will be clear acrylic most likely and i'm not sure what fan I will use yet. I also need to figure out how to power it easily. Edit: May use pvc pipe. / Need your ideas whether this is a good idea.


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## Fish_lover0591 (Dec 16, 2006)

No comments on my idea?


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## Fish_lover0591 (Dec 16, 2006)

bump  .


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

I voted the most intensive form. Ventilation can almost never be overdone. Fresh air is good for the frogs, beneficial for the climate in the tank and an absolute must for some of the more delicate plants. 

My tank has two fans and three strips and the frogs and plants thrive. I can't understand people keep frogs in aquaria with little or no air running through the tank. Some can hardly see their frogs because of alle the moisture building up. Not a good thing.


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## jausi (May 14, 2008)

Hi guys, 

i just got my fans but after reading many threats for different setups i got a little confuse, i’ve saw many place the fans out side and other in side, my question is:
1) wich is the best option for the viv and frogs?, 
2) if the fans are out side the humidity will drop a lot??
3) what is the point of having the fans inside?? Keep humidity??

Right now my tank is 99% humidity at night and around 87% to 85% during the day, the temp during the day is 80 f to 85 f and at night goes down to 76 f with out fans.

How much will the humidity and temp will go down if i add two fans?? Either inside or outside


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## raimeiken (Dec 24, 2006)

013 said:


> I can't understand people keep frogs in aquaria with little or no air running through the tank. Some can hardly see their frogs because of alle the moisture building up. Not a good thing.


completely agree


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## foxfish (Nov 13, 2008)

I have done a bit of experimenting with fans & humidity levels.
My present set up has two fans running throughout the day, one draws air from the top of my water filled sump which in turn has vent holes in the lid & an aquarium air pump in the water, this seems to supply fresh but humid air.
The second pump is fixed inside the viv lid amongst the six light tubes & points straight at the front glass, I have a 15 x 300mm screen above the lights to let out the air drawn from the sump.
As I grow quite a lot of java & rica moss + anubis & java fern I need humid conditions, about 90% in the day time light period & 100% in the dark.
However I have found the more terrestrial plants dont enjoy these conditions very much but if I leave the internal fan running though the night (ie 24hours) the humidity drops to about 70% by morning.
I find alternating the fans can make quite a lot of difference but I am still experimenting to find the ideal.


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## viktor (Jan 27, 2009)

Here is my set up.

I bought a lot of 20 small fans on ebay for $10, a $30 timer from mistking, and two power supplies from radio shack for $15 each. I hooked up all the fans in parallel to the power supplies and plugged them in into the timer. The fans come on for 5 minute intervals throughout the day. The power supplies are adjustable from 3V to 12V, so I can control the speed of the fans with the voltage. I drilled a 2 inch holes in the acrylic that covers my tanks and screwed the fans on top of the holes. So the air comes in from the top.
I used a data logger to see how much the humidity drops when the fans are running. The humidity drops about 10-20% while the fans are one for the 5 minutes, but once the fan shuts off, the humidity goes right back up.
This setup works great for me.

I think the frogs and plants benefit greatly from ventilation. I don't agree with the opinion that the frogs do not need ventilation. There is air movement in any natural setting you can find a frog.


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