# Suspended Eggs



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

My R. sirensis have deposited a clutch of 2 eggs suspended on the top side of a small tupperware cup. Is this common with Ranitomeya? I am utilizing evaporative anti-fungal techniques. I was told that the oak leaf's tannins, through evaporation and humidity, will help control fungal infections of the eggs. Has anyone used this method(as oppossed to Meth Blue)?

Will these tads(if viable) drip into the water below, or will they need a form of transport? Once they drop(if they drop) will be seperated and reared singly. A friend of mine from the Cleveland Zoo suggested that the tads WILL drip out and down into the water when ready, but this seemed to me a prodominately tree frog strategy... Maybe I am ignorant of all the methods utilized by darts, but I thought all darts took part in transportaion of tads... I thought this was kind of a defining trait... Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

JBear


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

JBear, I'm also interested to hear about this tannin method. 
I remember learning about evaporation, and how if you took a bowl of saltwater and left it on the counter the water would evaporate but the salt does not. So if you went back in a week and some water had evaporated the remaining water would be even saltier than in the beginning because there is less water in the bowl but the same amount of salt as when you started. So if this is true the water will evaporate but leave the tannins in the water? I'm interested in hearing more about this.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

The way I see it is salt is heavier than water and will eventually seperate without flow. Tannins are a property of the water once sufficiently leached. This would cause the same stained water to rise with tannins, but salt to sink and seperate... I may be dead wrong... All my thanks for the quick reply and the interest!

JBear


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

We're digging ourselves into a hole, now we need a frogger and a chemist to answer this question.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Salt does not separate, the NaCl form a bond with the H20 (after separating, but I'm not going into that, too tired). Tannins are suspended in the water, they are not dissolved. Its possible the tannins could have a higher density at different depths but I highly doubt it, particularly at room temps or above, and considering the small quantities of water in question. However, evaporation would leave behind a higher concentration of solutes and particles, relative to total water quantity. I hope that helps.

Jake


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jacobi said:


> Salt does not separate, the NaCl form a bond with the H20 (after separating, but I'm not going into that, too tired). Tannins are suspended in the water, they are not dissolved. Its possible the tannins could have a higher density at different depths but I highly doubt it, particularly at room temps or above, and considering the small quantities of water in question. However, evaporation would leave behind a higher concentration of solutes and particles, relative to total water quantity. I hope that helps.
> 
> Jake


So are you saying some tannins will ascend as by means of evaporation, but in no real measure? I understand that the salt will not simply seperate and I appreciate the clarification/correction! I just want to be able to provide the best care for the eggs as possible..

All my thanks!

JBear


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

I don't entirely understand the method you refer too. However, as water evaporates, it will not carry tannins with it. 

Jake


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

jacobi said:


> Salt does not separate, the NaCl form a bond with the H20 (after separating, but I'm not going into that, too tired). Tannins are suspended in the water, they are not dissolved. Its possible the tannins could have a higher density at different depths but I highly doubt it, particularly at room temps or above, and considering the small quantities of water in question. However, evaporation would leave behind a higher concentration of solutes and particles, relative to total water quantity. I hope that helps.
> 
> Jake


That's not correct. Water doesn't form bonds with either the sodium or chloride ions. Solvation is not a chemical reaction it's a physical property. The water will evaporate and leave the salt behind


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jacobi said:


> I don't entirely understand the method you refer too. However, as water evaporates, it will not carry tannins with it.
> 
> Jake


I was told as the water is stained and evaporates it will be carried up as particles/droplets that will in turn rest on the eggs providing humidity and fungal protection(Cleveland Zoo rep). I am not saying this is true, or that I whole heartily believe this... This is why I am questioning it. Why will the tannins not be carried upward through evaporation when the whole body of water is tanned. I don't see where it(water) would rise without stain(tannins). I understand you do not want to go into a long winded response, and I will likely not follow it entirely, but I don't understand why the water would lose it simply through evaporation.

I thank you so much for the help!

JBear


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

jbherpin said:


> My R. sirensis have deposited a clutch of 2 eggs suspended on the top side of a small tupperware cup. Is this common with Ranitomeya? I am utilizing evaporative anti-fungal techniques. I was told that the oak leaf's tannins, through evaporation and humidity, will help control fungal infections of the eggs. Has anyone used this method(as oppossed to Meth Blue)?
> 
> Will these tads(if viable) drip into the water below, or will they need a form of transport? Once they drop(if they drop) will be seperated and reared singly. A friend of mine from the Cleveland Zoo suggested that the tads WILL drip out and down into the water when ready, but this seemed to me a prodominately tree frog strategy... Maybe I am ignorant of all the methods utilized by darts, but I thought all darts took part in transportaion of tads... I thought this was kind of a defining trait... Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> JBear


Tannins aren't going to be carried via evaporative action. The humidity will be controlled, yes. Extra antifungal properties, no. If you want to use tannins to advantage, invert that Tupperware so a very small layer of tannin water can be in contact with those eggs.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> I was told as the water is stained and evaporates it will be carried up as particles/droplets that will in turn rest on the eggs providing humidity and fungal protection(Cleveland Zoo rep). I am not saying this is true, or that I whole heartily believe this... This is why I am questioning it. *Why will the tannins not be carried upward through evaporation when the whole body of water is tanned. I don't see where it(water) would rise without stain(tannins).* I understand you do not want to go into a long winded response, and I will likely not follow it entirely, but *I don't understand why the water would lose it simply through evaporation.*
> I thank you so much for the help!
> 
> JBear





frogparty said:


> *Tannins aren't going to be carried via evaporative action*. The humidity will be controlled, yes. Extra antifungal properties, no. If you want to use tannins to advantage, invert that Tupperware so a very small layer of tannin water can be in contact with those eggs.


I am sorry, but I don't understand why not. Like I said, I am not disputing this, just seeking some understanding/education...

JBear


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Because as water evaporates, the hydrogen bonds between water molecules are broken, releasing individual water molecules to the air. It's the same principle as boiling, just with a smaller percentage of the molecules becoming aerosolized. 

The addition of ANYTHING to water changes boiling point, freezing point. Its called a COLLIGATIVE PROPERTY. It doesn't matter WHAT YOU ADD. It only matters HOW MANY MOLES of that substance you add. A mole is 6.022 x 10 to the 23rd molecules ( Avogadro's number) as the first water molecules evaporate, the resulting solution is more concentrated, increasing the boiling/evaporation point, meaning it will take more energy to allow other molecules to break hydrogen bonds and evaporate. The tannins are left behind in solution while what water molecules can evaporate. 
Does that make sense?


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

All my thanks, it made perfect sense(surprisingly)! I can't thank you enough for explaining this to me! 

Moving on to the other question, will the tads simply drip down, or will they be better reared in a non suspended way? Should I get some Meth Blue, or is it simply not needed? 

JBear



frogparty said:


> Because as water evaporates, the hydrogen bonds between water molecules are broken, releasing individual water molecules to the air. It's the same principle as boiling, just with a smaller percentage of the molecules becoming aerosolized.
> 
> The addition of ANYTHING to water changes boiling point, freezing point. Its called a COLLIGATIVE PROPERTY. It doesn't matter WHAT YOU ADD. It only matters HOW MANY MOLES of that substance you add. A mole is 6.022 x 10 to the 23rd molecules ( Avogadro's number) as the first water molecules evaporate, the resulting solution is more concentrated, increasing the boiling/evaporation point, meaning it will take more energy to allow other molecules to break hydrogen bonds and evaporate. The tannins are left behind in solution while what water molecules can evaporate.
> Does that make sense?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I wouldn't let them drip down. I'd use a razor or slurpee straw and transfer them to a petri dish where you can put a SMALL amount of tadpole tea or methylene blue solution in contact with the eggs. I personally don't use either anymore because good healthy eggs usually don't need it, but thats a personal choice


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

frogparty said:


> I wouldn't let them drip down. I'd use a razor or slurpee straw and transfer them to a petri dish where you can put a SMALL amount of tadpole tea or methylene blue solution in contact with the eggs. I personally don't use either anymore because good healthy eggs usually don't need it, but thats a personal choice


I will scrape them in the morning and place them in a Petri dish. I will place the Petri dish into a small resevoir of water and let humidity keep them moist. If they go bad, oh well,* I am not a seller, I am a giver*, lol. 

On a side note, what are the risks of allowing them to drip down? Perhaps the gelatinous membrane would become too lax and allow the tad to slip prior to full development? (not the plan-again, for sheer educational purpose)

Thanks for the insight and help!

JBear


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

they might drop prematurely. Its not natural for dart eggs to suspend like that. Vertical, yes, inverted, no.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> ... *this seemed to me a prodominately tree frog strategy... Maybe I am ignorant of all the methods utilized by darts, but I thought all darts took part in transportaion of tads... I thought this was kind of a defining trait*... Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> JBear





frogparty said:


> they might drop prematurely. *Its not natural for dart eggs to suspend like that. Vertical, yes, inverted, no*.


This was my exact point...I have never heard of this. Why would they choose to deposit in this orientation? Are the eggs doomed due to the suspended nature? The only thing I can think of was that the old viv was spoiled(see here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/705388-post32.html ) and they were trying to keep the eggs as far from the substrate as possible... Does that seem at all reasonable?

JBear


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

First of all, when they brake out they may fall down but I feel like they could also get stuck to the top. Either way when they brake out they should be moist enough to live until you can help them out. As long as you don't ignore them for a week or anything.

And second, thanks a bunch Jason for bringing back horrible memories of chemistry and reminding me I have one level left to take next quarter...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

You're welcome Adam.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

frogparty said:


> That's not correct. Water doesn't form bonds with either the sodium or chloride ions. Solvation is not a chemical reaction it's a physical property.


I have had textbooks refer to the hydration shell as a hydration bond. That's what I was referring to.



Jake


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

solvation forms no actual bonds.... therefore its not a chemical reaction. 
Hydration bonding facilitates the seperation of ions, but they arent true bonds and they are transient
The ions remain unchanged and upon removal of the solvent return to normal, thats how yu know it isnt a chemical reaction


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

One of the 2 eggs looks a bit smaller. Is this common. Thanks!

JBear


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

frogparty said:


> solvation forms no actual bonds.... therefore its not a chemical reaction.
> Hydration bonding facilitates the seperation of ions, but they arent true bonds and they are transient
> The ions remain unchanged and upon removal of the solvent return to normal, thats how yu know it isnt a chemical reaction


So I shouldn't use the term "bond" unless its a chemical reaction? I understand the mechanics extremely well, I confuse myself over the terms. And apologies to the OP for the shift from your original question...

Jake


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Thats right.


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