# Vertical Space vs. Floor Space



## chriscullari (Sep 21, 2020)

Hi all!

So I put together my first paludarium and it's been cycling for about a month. Everything is taking root and I'm really happy with the look, but I didn't end up with as much open floor space as I thought I would. It's about 6x7 inches of mossy space and I'm planning on extending it a few inches with one of Zilla's mushroom feeders.

Even still, is this enough space for two thumbnail dart frogs? Which species or morphs will make the best use of the vertical space? 


















Any advice would be appreciated! Looking forward to becoming part of the community.

- Chris


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## chriscullari (Sep 21, 2020)

Whoops! Pics at the links below:

https://imgur.com/a/XKNanR2
https://imgur.com/a/PRqD05R


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

I have one of these where I grow out my broms (12x12x24) and it's a neat set of dimensions. 

It doesn't look like you have enough easy access for frogs to get out of the water if they happen to fall in. Also, just FYI, I'm not sure that you have enough light getting down to the water area for the stem plants, so expect some melt.


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

chriscullari said:


> Whoops! Pics at the links below:
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/XKNanR2
> https://imgur.com/a/PRqD05R


Its a pretty tank! But probably not a good choice for dart frogs. Floor space is too limited and the vertical space is not huge either. Its tempting to stick big water features in a vivarium for frogs because in our minds frogs are associated with water. But the reality is that dart frogs don't do particularly well with large water features. They can be incorporated in large enough vivariums but as you found out, having a water feature large enough to grow aquatic plants and have some fish will take up so much space as to make it essentially impossible to safely keep frogs in standard sized vivs.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

chriscullari said:


> Hi all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Chris, that tank is very aesthetically pleasing. 

But... It's not well suited for dart frogs. 

The water for the paludarium looks to take up a lot of the floorspace for the frogs and what floorspace is left is covered in moss that will likely be far wetter than the frogs want, discouraging them from using that space. 

Personally speaking, I wouldn't put any dart frogs in this tank as it currently is set up. I'll admit to a love of more space for my frogs, my Ranitomeya are in 18x18x24" or larger tanks (And no water features). 
In my experience, the more floorspace the frogs have then the more interesting behaviours you'll get to see from the frogs. 

My Ranitomeya sirensis group are in a 36x18x24" tank, they are routinely jumping from log to log to hunt/forage. 

Also, leaf litter is one of the most important things for the top of the substrate.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

minorhero said:


> Its a pretty tank! But probably not a good choice for dart frogs. Floor space is too limited and the vertical space is not huge either


I have to beg to differ. In the case of thumbnails, I've seen a ton of people, including breeders keep them in these tanks without water features. The overall space seems to be adequate for a pair or trio. In any case, larger spaces will always be appreciated and used, but for a pair I wouldn't see this as an absolute no. Then again, I have no experience with thumbnails and I'm basing my response on what I've read and seen in a lot of GB dart frog groups.



minorhero said:


> Its tempting to stick big water features in a vivarium for frogs because in our minds frogs are associated with water. But the reality is that dart frogs don't do particularly well with large water features. They can be incorporated in large enough vivariums but as you found out, having a water feature large enough to grow aquatic plants and have some fish will take up so much space as to make it essentially impossible to safely keep frogs in standard sized vivs.


This I agree on completely. If you're looking for more then a puddle for the frogs to have and have more than floating plants in, you're going to need something huge. From what I can tell to have a nice display that's a full on ecosystem you're going to need something that is at least 4 foot front to rear (~120cm), 6 foot wide (~180cm) by 3 feet tall (~90cm). Even then you're looking at a water feature that is no more than 6-10" in the deepest (most likely front of the display) area and that will still have to slope up on the sides and to the rear and include a lot of hardscape to prevent drownings. With that space you could house some small fish and inverts, but you'd still be limited to the stocking in water and then would have to provide the appropriate PAR lighting to penetrate that deep into the enclosure to provide submersed plants what they need. As much as this would be a beautiful display, the overall design for the enclosure, plus water filtration and flow and lighting would be a high cost endeavor.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I agree -- beautiful display, but unsuitable for any dart frog.

It isn't so much the space (because frogs don't use _space_) it is the fact that there are no surfaces in the tank the frogs can really use -- no leaf litter, no good hiding spots, etc. There are also not going to be any microclimate choices for the frogs to choose between. That size viv is very marginal even set up with the needs of the frogs in mind; set up as a paludarium, it is simply not sufficient.

I'd display it just like it is -- it is really pretty.


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## chriscullari (Sep 21, 2020)

Thanks for all the replies.

Follow up question: if I took the water out, made a separate aquarium, and then dedicated the rest of the floor space to leaf litter/hiding spots/etc, would that make for a more suitable arrangement?


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

chriscullari said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> Follow up question: if I took the water out, made a separate aquarium, and then dedicated the rest of the floor space to leaf litter/hiding spots/etc, would that make for a more suitable arrangement?


I'd look into other builds here on the forum. Creating a background with various surfaces for the darts to perch and be able to cross thermal and humidity gradients would be ideal. 

Start by creating a drainage layer first, be it either raised eggcrate (my preferred setup) or with another drainage material (see Josh's Frogs, Glassbox Tropicals or NEHerpeteculture for off the shelf bagged materials) is another route. From there you can lay down ABG mix and plant that ground area and provide leaf litter and you should be set.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

chriscullari said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> Follow up question: if I took the water out, made a separate aquarium, and then dedicated the rest of the floor space to leaf litter/hiding spots/etc, would that make for a more suitable arrangement?


Yes, although some other issues are:

Ventilation -- a full screen top is too much of a good thing.

Plant cover -- few of of the plants you've used in this build are very usable by frogs.

Lighting -- looks overly bright, though that could just be the photo.

It is best to start by learning about frogs, the species, and their needs, and only then build a viv. Thumbnails can be challenging to keep, at least in comparison to what people usually consider 'beginner' species. Honestly, if it is an option I would keep what you have there -- since it is nice -- and build a frog viv after you've chosen a species (and decided you really want to take that leap). 

A far better size for any species would be 18 x 18 x 24 or thereabouts.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes, although some other issues are:
> 
> Ventilation -- a full screen top is too much of a good thing.
> 
> ...


So much yes on this post!

Few comments here:

Ventilation -- You can either find precut panes to lay over the screen top at NEHerpeteculture, or you can have glass cut/cut your own glass to silicon in place of the factory screen lid. Replacing it is the best option as these screens will, no matter who says otherwise, rust and overtime disintegrate. A glass top will hold in more humidity, but in turn requires a bit more work as if you go with a misting solution (say MistKing) you will have to drill it for the spray nozzles. No fret, not hard to do, just take patience. You will also have to add an area of ventilation for gas exchange in the viv so the front vents can be an intake for air and with convection due to the lights, air can escape from the top to prevent the viv from being stagnant. This will reduce nasty smells as well as provide a better environment for the darts and plants.

Lighting -- The lighting you have will in the long run be a problem. I have these lights for other reptiles I keep and they are built for one thing, to put light and heat down into an enclosure. A glass lid like we discussed before with these fixtures will turn them into a baking vessel. I'd highly recommend going with an LED light strip. You can either find a horizontal light fixture and get an LED (screw in incandescent style) replacement bulb, or go on Amazon and order an Aquarium LED fixture and it will be more than enough. Either way, better options and cheaper to run.


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## Androgynoid (Sep 3, 2020)

Tihsho said:


> So much yes on this post!
> 
> Few comments here:
> 
> Ventilation -- You can either find precut panes to lay over the screen top at NEHerpeteculture, or you can have glass cut/cut your own glass to silicon in place of the factory screen lid. Replacing it is the best option as these screens will, no matter who says otherwise, rust and overtime disintegrate. A glass top will hold in more humidity, but in turn requires a bit more work as if you go with a misting solution (say MistKing) you will have to drill it for the spray nozzles. No fret, not hard to do, just take patience. You will also have to add an area of ventilation for gas exchange in the viv so the front vents can be an intake for air and with convection due to the lights, air can escape from the top to prevent the viv from being stagnant. This will reduce nasty smells as well as provide a better environment for the darts and plants.


Just throwing this out there, but NEHerp is looking into a new supplier for their glass/conversion kits, so for the time being they're unavailable (and have been for awhile).

I've noticed that Zilla has started providing inserts for the screen on their front-opening terrariums (not that buying a whole new one is a good option for OP). You may be able to get a piece of glass custom cut and polished for a decent price, but that's entirely dependent on your local glass suppliers


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

Tihsho said:


> I have to beg to differ. In the case of thumbnails, I've seen a ton of people, including breeders keep them in these tanks without water features. The overall space seems to be adequate for a pair or trio. In any case, larger spaces will always be appreciated and used, but for a pair I wouldn't see this as an absolute no. Then again, I have no experience with thumbnails and I'm basing my response on what I've read and seen in a lot of GB dart frog groups.


Not a reference to this style of exo-terra as this exact tank as currently setup.

To the OP, yes draining the water and controlling humidity/ventilation and it could be quite a nice tank for frogs. I would try to find some wood that can add to the tank to take advantage of the vertical space you have so the frogs can climb up and explore epiphyte plants stuck to the wood. Broms are really good for this.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

As I mentioned in one of my posts above, I've got one of these enclosures that I was using to grow out some bromeliads and with some additional parts sitting around I figured I'd tinker with the enclosure with a thought that I might put in a pair or trio of thumbnails. When I popped out the top to do some measurements for a glass pane, I realized that the design for the lid of a ZooMed enclosure is a bunch different than how ExoTerra does theres. ZooMed's mounts with a injection plastic frame where the ExoTerra's mount with a spline and some epoxy. For retrofitting glass, the ExoTerra lid setup I find to be much more superior. Rather than hack up the lid I just decided to cut some of my spare glass to sit above the screen and left about a 1" strip of screen uncovered to provide air flow. I'll see how things go and let you know, I'm mainly concerned with the screen rusting over time, but we will see. I know ExoTerra screens don't hold up well to moisture, time to test out ZooMeds.


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