# Carnivorous Plants in the Vivarium



## Sticky Fingers (Sep 28, 2011)

Does anyone have any carnivorous plants in their viv? Mainly sundews or Pitcher plants. 
Will pdf's trample the plants or will the plants irritate the frogs?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Please use the search function on this one. Utricularia are the only carnivorous plants I reccomend


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## Sticky Fingers (Sep 28, 2011)

oooooooooooook...


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## Hornet (Sep 29, 2010)

most cp's are unsuitable for vivs, the only ones i can think of that would work are the "3 sister" drosera, utricularia and nepenthe's. The drosera's may be able to trap and kill frogs but im not sure about nepenthes, not sure if the frogs could escape from their traps or not. Utrics are perfectly safe though


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

Here's a picture of a viv I planted 2 years ago, the pitcher plant at the top quit producing pitchers due to the substrate not being moist enough. I started watering it everyday about 2 weeks ago and now have a pitcher opening. I just purchased a parrot, & a purple pitcher plant along with a bladderwort for some new viv's I'm going to plant over the holidays.
Good luck!
Brian


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## Sticky Fingers (Sep 28, 2011)

Thanks for the info everyone. I will definitely read up on all species that are suggested. Im just trying to get all my ducks in a row as im about to break down my 90gal and prepare it for my viv.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

frogparty said:


> Please use the search function on this one. Utricularia are the only carnivorous plants I reccomend


Pinguicula should be ok as well.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

But sticky and frogs will track substrate all over them and they look awful in no time


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Sarracenia species are not suitable for vivariums. They need full sun and seasons in order to prosper.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

If living frogs/other animals are involved (particularly when mixing species that evolved in completely different parts of the world) I usually do not recommend anything other than some of the semi-terrestrial bladderworts in terrariums for a few reasons - basically comes down to cultural conditions and food sources. The rare case would be certain treefrogs and some of the pitcher plants which do interact in the wild (and the frog even raises tadpoles in the pitchers!) but you have to have the RIGHT pitchers (specifically the ones that trap falling debris, not digesting living things caught in the trap) and the RIGHT frogs!

Many CPs may not get the conditions they need long term to thrive... some prefer extremely high light and low nutrients (to the point of wanting RO/distilled/rainwater). Most frog tanks are moderate to low light and have nutrients in the tank which feed other plants, feed microfauna, or just results of frogs eating some food  That cuts out a lot of sundews and native pitches (particularly the light issue). I only keep sundews around on my frog shelf to get loose flies, they are not actually IN the tank.

Other issues I've had is that frogs in a confined space can knock the living daylights out of plants! I had some seeds germinate of native sundews in a tank of native marsh frogs. They did great until the native frogs squashed the daylights out of them. They are not the fastest growing plants and just could not keep up with the damage. Unless you had small frogs and big plant you could have a squishing problem....

... of course then your CPs may eat your frog. This is particularly troublesome with plants with large active traps. Think fly traps and tropical pitchers that work so hard to attract live things to eat. Pitchers are evolved so that things to in do not come back out. When you have living things capable of their own movement it gets pretty crafty, and then frogs are TOTALLY on the menu. If they can trap a well developed treefrog, a PDF is easy pickings. If the frog can fit in the pitcher, there is a danger. Fly traps don't often last long because of cultural conditions, but also because if the frogs keep setting off the traps those leaves eventually die and if the plant can't replace them that can kill them right there.

I can't really speak for Pings as I've had bad experiences with them outside of a terrarium, much less in one. One I did see in a tank ended up not lasting long because the frogs kept tracking debris all over it and it eventually died because of either bad conditions or being trampled. It had to be in it's own separate area because it's substrate had to be different than the rest of the tank. 

The only CPs I can think of off the top of my head that even occur in the same niches where our little lovelies live tends to be the bladderworts... they can handle the nutrients, lower light levels, and traffic. There are a number of cool sundews - but they tend to be in areas of broken tree canopy that is often scrubby and not good PDF habitat.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

If you want a dynamic carnivorous plant/ animal enclosure get some Nepenthes, and Geosearma crabs. You could probably add some smaller communal mantids to an enclosure like this as well


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Oooooooo now that would be cool! Don't you have to get certain Nepenthes though?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Yeah probably bu it shouldn't really matter. The pitchers probably just can't have a constricted waist so the crabs can enter and exit. Think Gymnaphora or similar


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

So it sounds like the open topped (and wide mouthed) detritus eaters then? I imagine with all the sorts of bristles and caps and ridges and hairs some of the more "predatory" ones have they'd not be a good crabby home LOL. Well, they'd be it's home until it died... 

But back to in PDF terrariums - I still have to show some love for the Utrics! If you've got a bit of a wet spot in your terrarium to start them in (or a clump of LFS - some are epiphytic!) you can go biotope if you want to or even just get an extra splash of color when they bloom! If the frogs knock the blooms down they just send up more  and they will seed in the tank and grow where they enjoy the conditions. Can't go wrong  They just aren't as visually exciting I guess? I always get asked what the little flowers are....


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

KeroKero said:


> I can't really speak for Pings as I've had bad experiences with them outside of a terrarium, much less in one. One I did see in a tank ended up not lasting long because the frogs kept tracking debris all over it and it eventually died because of either bad conditions or being trampled. It had to be in it's own separate area because it's substrate had to be different than the rest of the tank.


I used to keep several species of pings in a CP terrarium, which in a fit of brilliance (I was 14) decided to try to breed some Lymnodynastes dumerilli which I had caught in a creek which ran through my Dad's property. They both thrived. Interestingly, the frogs (of which 2 of the originals are still alive almost 14 years later) and the pings thrived. I didnt have much substrate for the frogs to track around, and I had managed to somehow get sphagnum moss to grow like a bushfire. Had to be trimmed twice a month. The frogs favourite place to sit in the tank was on the leaves of the Pinguicula primuliflora. I took them out twice a day to check their skin for damage by the digestive enzymes when I first noticed this but they were fine. Plants thrived coz the frogs defecated on the leaves, which the pings seemed to be able to digest. It was quite fascinating.


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## Sticky Fingers (Sep 28, 2011)

frogparty said:


> If you want a dynamic carnivorous plant/ animal enclosure get some Nepenthes, and Geosearma crabs. You could probably add some smaller communal mantids to an enclosure like this as well


That is something i may consider for my shallow tank. Its 4'x4'x15". That should make a really cool bog set up. 

Thanks all!


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## 31drew31 (Nov 14, 2010)

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet as I didn't read the thread, but there are a number of utricularia that grow naturally in brom cups. U. humboldtii being one I know of offhand.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Yeah epiphytic utricularias have been mentioned. But not a particular species. They are pretty rad


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I figured since the original post was talking pitchers and sundews that a list of Utricularia wasn't needed, but can post some species if there is interest. The yellow flowered species from African tend to have really tall flower spikes but some of the most popular (and dare I say weedy in some cases) are smaller and tend to be south american. I am particularly fond of when the "angry bunnies" pop up in my tanks... the best ones for terrariums are semi-aquatic so starting them near a pond and letting them spread works great!


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I would like to see them in a paludarium setting where you can see the trap roots free dangling in the water. Like planted on an overhanging piece of wood with a hole in it or something. Now Im thinking of doing a crazy viv. Orchids, Nepenthes, Geosearma crabs and some non aggressive mantis like Acanthops or something. hmmmmm need....more...room for tanks!!!! hahahaha


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Hmmm... in that application I'd probably recommend an actual aquatic species (but please dear god not gibba - once you have it, it NEVER leaves, it's like duckweed below the surface!!). The semi-aquatics I've had aren't always free floating, but under the water they may still have their traps below the substrate rather than just free floating like true aquatics, though I imagine they could... That application makes me think Aldrovanda vesiculosa would be more interesting as it's larger and has larger traps, but then again there are Utricularia down in florida eating cane toad tadpoles  It popped up on a youtube search earlier!

You could just have a pond in the front of the tank (drainage layer opened up to expose the water level) that would work just fine for an aquatic Utric as long as it got enough light and you had some infusoria for them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tadpole captures are reported for a number of Utricularia that are either full aquatics or ones that can grow partially submerged (like U. cornuta for example). Even if they can't capture the entire tadpole, there are lots of reports of partial captures (such as a tail tip) which is then digested damaging or killing the tadpole. 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

wow. The traps on these species are obviously more powerful than I thought! I suppose with a non frog paludarium the risks would be small...just couldnt have any cherry shrimp! I remember seeing beautiful utric. plantings with a square planter seated on a glass vase, and seeing the long free suspending root traps of the Utric. showcased beautifully. Then you just need some brine shrimp for feeders and youre good to go! I might have to look into doing one of these now that I think about it.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> tadpole captures are reported for a number of Utricularia that are either full aquatics or ones that can grow partially submerged (like U. cornuta for example). Even if they can't capture the entire tadpole, there are lots of reports of partial captures (such as a tail tip) which is then digested damaging or killing the tadpole.
> 
> Ed



Ed have you seen any literature on the control of cane toads by aquatic utricularia? I remember reading about some time ago, but not sure where and cant find anything specific. 

I did find this. This video shows a tadpole with its tail stuck in the trap. I wish the entire thing had been documented.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> wow. The traps on these species are obviously more powerful than I thought! I suppose with a non frog paludarium the risks would be small...just couldnt have any cherry shrimp! I remember seeing beautiful utric. plantings with a square planter seated on a glass vase, and seeing the long free suspending root traps of the Utric. showcased beautifully. Then you just need some brine shrimp for feeders and youre good to go! I might have to look into doing one of these now that I think about it.


You actually don't have to feed them unless you want to.. the copepods and other small things that colonize the water will supply at least some of the food for the bladderworts.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

double post


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> Ed have you seen any literature on the control of cane toads by aquatic utricularia? I remember reading about some time ago, but not sure where and cant find anything specific.
> 
> I did find this. This video shows a tadpole with its tail stuck in the trap. I wish the entire thing had been documented.


The tadpoles can become trapped but the amount captured isn't enough to really control or even reduce the cane toad populations. Keep in mind that thousands of eggs are deposited by one female.. when you realize the numbers of eggs deposited into a breeding spot, it indicates a total overwhelming of any of the potential predators (including plants)> 

Ed


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