# 125 gallon moss wall questions



## Saviorself (Jun 29, 2010)

This tank is being set up to house a family of Leuc dart frogs.

I have ecoweb mounted to the back of my tank for my background. I did not setup a drip wall for this. I plan to use a mistking misting system. After doing a little digging this is what I came up with but want to be 100% sure before I started.

It seems java moss seems to be the moss of choice, which is widely available on the planted aquarium forums. Has anyone had any luck with other mosses like Christmas moss, Taiwann Moss or Flame moss? (those are a couple of my aquarium favorites)

To break this stuff up I wanna toss it into a blender and liquify it? Would throwing in some sphagum and peat help thicken this mixture? I dont want to use butter milk as ive read it smells horrible.

My light fixture is a 6ft t5ho fixture. For bulbs I am using Geismann mid day 4x39 watt and Geismann flora 4 x 39 watt. The fixture can run all or half the bulbs would I be ok with running half of them or would I need to run all of them?

To get this stuff established I would imagine it would need extra misting to keep it from drying out so I am thinking I may start the wall before adding any substrate or other plants. Thought about using a hand mister filled with some of my aquarium water too for some extra nutrients for the moss while it establishes. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

When I ran my reef set up I would have a dawn, mid day and dusk light period.

you can get real complicated with it, or an easy way to do with this system is run one fixture from say 7am-7pm and run the second set from 12pm-5pm

that way the 7am-12 would be dawn per say, 12-5pm would be your mid day, and then 5pm-7pm your dusk. you can play with the hours as to what you like. keep in mind possible heat issues as well running 2 fixtures instead of the one and so forth. 

have fun and enjoy it.

PS..im pretty sure that herpkeeper control system will allow you to run various combinations with the light fixtures, from single bulb to two or 3 at a time and so forth.




Saviorself said:


> My light fixture is a 6ft t5ho fixture. For bulbs I am using Geismann mid day 4x39 watt and Geismann flora 4 x 39 watt. The fixture can run all or half the bulbs would I be ok with running half of them or would I need to run all of them?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Saviorself said:


> This tank is being set up to house a family of Leuc dart frogs.
> 
> I have ecoweb mounted to the back of my tank for my background. I did not setup a drip wall for this. I plan to use a mistking misting system. After doing a little digging this is what I came up with but want to be 100% sure before I started.
> 
> ...


For mosses those other mosses will probably work as long as you have mist system hitting the back wall or a drip wall. I've heard of some people growing them terrestrially. I personally am not a fan of java moss, I would try getting a hold of several types of mosses and trying them all. That way they can find the spots most suitable to them and at least 1 or 2 are likely to do well. You can throw some java moss in the mix to just to be safe. You can mix most mosses in water and a blender then spread that over the wall. Sphagnum and peat are optional, probably wouldn't hurt though. Many mosses can reproduce from any live cell, they send out a film that covers the substrate (kinda looks like algae) and then the moss develops from that. Can try some black jungle tropical moss, and maybe hit up other vendors for mosses. Mounted plants often have mosses growing with them. Pillow mosses for some reason in my experience don't like being broken into small pieces...you can try it but I don't think you'll have as much success as with more typical mosses. 

Check out this thread I did, a list of plant vendors, many of the ones that carry moss are labeled as such...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/feedback-questions/55466-can-plant-seller-list-sticky.html

You might wanna consider a drip wall as it may be difficult to get good coverage with the mist system especially once plants grow up and start blocking the spray. 

As for the lighting I'm not familiar with those brands, or what color temp those bulbs are. 6500k is the standard for vivs. Most multi bulb fixtures will still run even if not all the bulbs are in it. The only issue I can think of is this might direct more power into the bulbs and they may run brighter/hotter and not last as long but my guess is they are designed so that doesn't happen.

Starting the wall growing isn't a bad idea, just make sure you are good about misting it frequently and keeping the area humid. As for aquarium water, I guess you can but mosses don't need many nutrients, but as long as you are sure the water is safe I suppose it wouldn't hurt.


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## Saviorself (Jun 29, 2010)

I appreciate the in depth response. The geismann bulbs are like the lexus of t5ho bulbs. The middays are a 6500k and the floras are a red spectrum grow bulb. Quite common in planted aquarium setups.

As for the different mosses I figured I could just mix them all in the blender abd whatever happens to grow grows and at least I will havr even coverage.

I was opting for the misting system because I didnt want to drill a hole in the tank for an overflow. I do plan to use ro water. My assumption was with enough nozzles and proper placement as long as my humidity didnt dip they shouldnt dry out. I did plan on several broms and what not on the wall as well.

Thanks again for the input.


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## the_deeb (Apr 21, 2008)

Java moss is easy to grow, but personally, I'm not a huge fan of the leggy look that it tends to get. I've been experimenting with xmas moss, flame moss and mini riccia on my ecoweb dripwall. All of them seem to be establishing, but it's been pretty slow.

All the mosses seem to grow much better on organic surfaces than on the ecoweb. They also grow better on sponges and foams. I think the problem is that the coarse weave of the ecoweb really doesn't hold much moisture by itself. The moss growth that I have seen on the ecoweb mainly seems to take off when a sufficient layer of dead moss has accumulated and the live moss starts growing on top of that. I think the layer of dead moss provides some organic matter and acts to wick more moisture from the ecoweb. Based on that observation, I would think that including some sphagnum to add some organic matter to the ecoweb might help the moss to grow better.

I've found that the mini riccia is doing well in areas with really bright light near the top of the wall. I'm currently using 4 X 54W T5HO (2X Giesemann Midday and 2X 10000K fishneedit bulbs). It's' growing on the Ecoweb but the growth is nowhere near as lush as it is on the clay sections of my tank. I think the xmas moss is my favorite so far in terms of growth habit and it seems to require a little less light than the riccia. It's also been growing pretty slowly. The flame moss is a recent addition and seems to be growing the best so far. I think that the upright growth habit is cool, but looks a little odd - it makes for a nice accent in a few spots but I don't think I'd want it to be the predominant moss on the wall. My tank has only been set up for a few months and the moss is only just starting to establish itself, so I'm hoping that it will really start to fill in over the next few months.

I didn't use the blender technique. I just took a handful of riccia/moss and smeared it over the ecoweb. The rough texture of the Ecoweb snagged up the moss strands very well and gave me pretty good coverage. 

As I mentioned before, the ecoweb really doesn't seem to hold much water by itself. I set mine up as a constant high flow dripwall for the purposes of growing some of these "aquatic" mosses. I would worry that misting by itself may not provide enough water. 

Hope that helps.


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## Saviorself (Jun 29, 2010)

the_deeb said:


> Java moss is easy to grow, but personally, I'm not a huge fan of the leggy look that it tends to get. I've been experimenting with xmas moss, flame moss and mini riccia on my ecoweb dripwall. All of them seem to be establishing, but it's been pretty slow.
> 
> All the mosses seem to grow much better on organic surfaces than on the ecoweb. They also grow better on sponges and foams. I think the problem is that the coarse weave of the ecoweb really doesn't hold much moisture by itself. The moss growth that I have seen on the ecoweb mainly seems to take off when a sufficient layer of dead moss has accumulated and the live moss starts growing on top of that. I think the layer of dead moss provides some organic matter and acts to wick more moisture from the ecoweb. Based on that observation, I would think that including some sphagnum to add some organic matter to the ecoweb might help the moss to grow better.
> 
> ...


I definitly appreciate the personal experience here. What would you say roughly your gallons per hour flow is for that drip wall? I am not opposed to doing a drip wall I just really didnt want to drill a hole in the tank but its definitly still a possibility if thats what I have to do.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

If you want a drip line but no overflow you can use a toms vacuum pump. The intake line would go in the false bottom, the pump sits on top of the tank or hangs off the back, sucks the water up, then out an output line, that could go to a T at the top of the tank with 2 lines running off the T with holes poked in them so it drips water down the back wall from the holes. That water flows down into the false bottom, where it gets sucked up and dripped down the wall again. Closed system, no overflow needed. Really all you need is some foam rubberbanded around the end of the intake line to prevent large particles being sucked into the pup or the tom's prefilter which serves the same purpose. It might be good to have a cut out section of the false bottom you can get into so you can fiddle with the pre-filter if you need to at some point.

Here are the product links....
Tom Aquatics Aqua-Lifter Dosing Pump
Tom Aquatics Aqua Lifter Suction Pre-Filter


Ok the ambien is kicking in, so i better go before ....this gets to trippy


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## Saviorself (Jun 29, 2010)

How deep of a false bottom do you recommend for that pump? Or I guess a better question is how high of a water lvl do I want to keep in tje false bottom And is that gonna be enough flow to cover a 5 ft length?


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

I bet if you got a really nice clay based soil and mashed it into the ecoweb, you would have a very nice and sturdy growing medium for the moss and it would take off because of the added organic nutrients in the clay. Would be worth a shot


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Saviorself said:


> How deep of a false bottom do you recommend for that pump? Or I guess a better question is how high of a water lvl do I want to keep in tje false bottom And is that gonna be enough flow to cover a 5 ft length?


Since those pumps are vacuum pumps and not like more typical water pumps they will run as long as the hose is in water of any level...because it actually sucks the water in using a vacuum like sucking on a straw, not an impeller or whatever like other pumps. They are very low flow though like 3.5 gph, which means they are fine for small drip walls, or waterfalls but you usually need as many pumps as water feature you want to run...1 won't do it all. 

As for covering 5ft...If you set the T's up good, and do well punching the right size holes in the tube at the proper intervals you may get it to stretch 5 ft, but I'd assume on using 2 pumps maybe 3. The longest wall I've ran so far with one is a 20H and the back 3 panels of a 35gal hex. The trick is getting even flow down both sides of the T, valves may help with that...and getting the water to drip sufficiently through the holes punched in the line while still continuing to travel down the line. Also I noticed that when punching holes in air line the line has a tendency to almost self seal, so instead of just pushing a sharp pin or small nail through them you need to heat it to melt a small hole that won't close or use a tiny drill bit and actually drill a hole in the line every few inches. Since your tank is so large you may want to go with a more conventional pump with a fairly high gph rating that can operate in a few inches of water. 

As for depth of false bottom that depends on how shallow the pump will run if you decide against the tom's pumps. It also depends on if you want a pond, and how deep you want the pond. I generally make my vivs so the pond water is shared with the false bottom water so my pond is as deep as the water level in the false bottom. In large tanks I usually do 4-6inch high false bottoms so my pond will be at least 3-5 inches deep even after a couple weeks of evaporation. I keep the false bottom nearly full and am just careful not to over mist and flood the substrate (Just mist enough to get the surface of plants and soil wet, and you'll be fine...no reason to completely saturate every thing every time you mist). 

Even if you don't go that route and completely seal the pond off from the false bottom it is good to keep the top of your pond at about the same height as the average water level in your false bottom, this cuts down on wicking so the water in pond doesn't basically climb up the walls and into the soil (yes it can actually do that  ) If they are both at the same height the soil near the level of the water will already be so moist not much water will be able to wick into it, what does occur will happen slowly. The soil above that will be progressively drier, and if your pond water was at that higher level would allow for much greater and faster wicking action...which is bad because its not such a big deal if the lowest layer of soil is wet while the top layers remain dry but if the water enters at the top layer it saturates all layers and you basically end up with a flooded tank instead of a moist tank that is constantly releasing humidity into the air through the substrate in a controlled way. Flooded sure you still get the humidity but you've just killed a lot of plants and created conditions that may be unhealthy for the frogs, at the very least you've killed off a lot of micro fauna they could have fed on. So moist good...flooded bad. Good luck


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

I can only tell you that in My Experience that my Moss Wall did not take off until I actually added a pump to keep the flow Constant.

First I tired on a Sealed Tank with Condensation from In tank water only. Stayed Wet but very littke growth

Second I tried a Routine Misting in the Sealed Tank..Same as above 

Finally I moved the Drip wall to another Tank and then Finally I added a Pump and that is when took off.

Here are the Pictures

Here is the Original Experimental Moss Tank 



Here is a Picture of the Wall When I first Moved it into the Tank September 29,2010



And Here it is Today Dec 31st 2010




As others have said When the plants started to grow out they block lower plants and not enough Water and light gets to those areas.

I think My next drip wall will be spread out with several planting areas and Covered With stones and Wood. That Way the plants can grow in in several areas instead of compete with each other.. Also the Lighting will be father away from the wall help all the wall get better light.

On this wall I covered the edges with clay and along the top with Clay.


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## Saviorself (Jun 29, 2010)

I appreciate the photos. I think Im going to opt to go with mini oak leaf vines. Seem to be slow growers and have nice small leaves. I would have liked to gone with the moss wall but I really dont want to have to deal with a drip wall and adding a drain to the tank. Thanks for all the input guys.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

There is no Drain in My Tank.

If designed right there is no need for a Drain.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

jpstod said:


> There is no Drain in My Tank.
> 
> If designed right there is no need for a Drain.


Hallelujah!!!....someone else has seen the light  Unless you are running a sump for a large water-feature I don't see the point either except to drain the tank to make them easier to move but burying a small piece of hose in the substrate to shop vac or siphon out the water can accomplish that just as easily. Its simple people, don't over mist. No need to saturate a vivs soil every misting to the point water drips through the substrate and into the false bottom. If your false bottom needs topping off then cool, knock yourself out but otherwise chill


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## Saviorself (Jun 29, 2010)

One of the problems with the drip wall I read was you cant have any of the substrate touching the drip wall because it will soak up the water. Where I had originally planned for it I couldnt see any other way of doing it that the soil wouldnt be touching.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Saviorself said:


> One of the problems with the drip wall I read was you cant have any of the substrate touching the drip wall because it will soak up the water. Where I had originally planned for it I couldnt see any other way of doing it that the soil wouldnt be touching.


I've been building substrate dams in my latest tanks so I could have a dripwall that wouldn't saturate the substrate. Maybe this will help...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...-mosaic-living-drip-wall-pond-method-how.html


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Putting some gravel at the base of the drip wall will prevent the substrate from wicking up the water.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Mitch said:


> Putting some gravel at the base of the drip wall will prevent the substrate from wicking up the water.


Ya, which is basically all I'm doing. I just use the dam to make sure the gravel stays in place. Things tend to shift over time in the substrate, plant roots will push gravel away and those areas could fill with substrate. Re-planting may mess up the separation, etc..etc... Also it makes the separation even more effective at not leaching tannins into the pond if you have one.

I didn't do a good job of structuring the gravel at the base of the drip walls in my hex and keeping the substrate out of the area so for the last month the viv has had 2 socks full of activated charcoal and a water pump pushing water through them to leach the majority of the tannins out of the viv. After a water change it would look ok for a couple weeks, but by around a month the water was just getting so dark it was a bit much for my tastes considering IMO the viv is nice and large enough to deserve a nicer looking pond  

The charcoal filled socks seem to be working though, and I've been over filling the tank while they are in there so that tannins still trapped in the lower substrate layers will leach out also and get sucked up by the charcaol. Shop vacing all the water out every couple of weeks seemed to barely put a dent in the overall tannin load as within a week the water would start getting really tea stained again, so hopefully this will be more successful. The test will be once I finally remove the socks and see how long it stays clear, and how clear it remains over time. I plan on refilling each sock with charcoal at least one more time and leaving them in for a month after that before I'm ready to see how things turn out. Right now I'm just waiting for the current socks charcoal to loose its charge and stop sucking up tannins.


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