# Cross breeding



## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Why is it frowned upon do you guys mind me asking? (I'm not planning on doing it just curious!) it was next on my list to research. Would it raise the chances of genetic mutations that could harm the frog? Or do people just want to leave nature be? By LexiandScott
I was bored so I made this thread credit to them, but I wold also like to know


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

mfsidore said:


> Why is it frowned upon do you guys mind me asking? (I'm not planning on doing it just curious!) it was next on my list to research. Would it raise the chances of genetic mutations that could harm the frog? Or do people just want to leave nature be? By LexiandScott
> I was bored so I made this thread credit to them, but I wold also like to know


Actually,
I believe, she thought just cross breeding was bad, and wanted to know why line breeding was also bad.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

I copied and pasted the exact quote from her haha


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

This post.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/127737-what-hell.html#post1496833

Lead me to believe she already knew cross breeding was bad, and now she would like to also know why line breeding is bad.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Yeah that one


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## Riptide (May 15, 2013)

As a noob to frogs I've been wondering why cross breeding and line breeding are so frowned upon. It is extremely common in the breeding of reptiles so what makes breeding for traits in frogs so much different?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Folks.

*Research.*

Lots of it.

It's *ALL HERE* on DB.

*Research.*

*THEN* ask your questions (because they'll likely be answered when you research).

Thank you.

s

[FYI - this is not the reptile hobby ... ]


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## ndame88 (Sep 24, 2010)

Riptide said:


> As a noob to frogs I've been wondering why cross breeding and line breeding are so frowned upon. It is extremely common in the breeding of reptiles so what makes breeding for traits in frogs so much different?


Why would you intentionally change what nature has already made PERFECT?

A very large majority here on DB do not consider our hobby to be like the reptile hobby and we like it that way. Please do a search on cross breeding or mixing, you will find days worth of threads on the topic.

Good Luck


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## sdlyager (Jan 30, 2012)

One-of-a-Kind Frog May Help Conservation | Amphibians & Chytrid Infections | LiveScience

There are ups and downs to everything


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

sdlyager said:


> One-of-a-Kind Frog May Help Conservation | Amphibians & Chytrid Infections | LiveScience
> 
> There are ups and downs to everything


Just because it has 'Science' within the name (livescience) does not make it real science. Where is the peer reviewed, and published data? Further, your statement "...ups and downs to everything" is meaningless. One cannot have something (eg. UP) without its negative (DOWN). If there were no UPs, you wouldn't have a way of defining down. If the world only had TALL people, would you still call them tall, or at that point, simply, people? Furthermore, it is always nice to have an original thought, first. Then, support it with extant data. What are you trying to say here? Does it have anything to do with the price of eggs in China?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

ndame88 said:


> Why would you intentionally change what nature has already made PERFECT.
> 
> Good Luck


There are very few things in nature that are perfect. Everything is an adaptation. Perfection implies no need for evolution, yet evolution is obvious. I dare say, the things closest to perfect are the things that destroy, what I believe you meant, beauty.(read bacteria, virus, etc) Ironically, said things work beautifully!


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## sdlyager (Jan 30, 2012)

aspidites73 said:


> Just because it has 'Science' within the name (livescience) does not make it real science. Where is the peer reviewed, and published data? Further, your statement "...ups and downs to everything" is meaningless. One cannot have something (eg. UP) without its negative (DOWN). If there were no UPs, you wouldn't have a way of defining down. If the world only had TALL people, would you still call them tall, or at that point, simply, people? Furthermore, it is always nice to have an original thought, first. Then, support it with extant data. What are you trying to say here? Does it have anything to do with the price of eggs in China?


It was simply an example of what can be accomplished with Hybridization. Honestly, with something as simple as that, do you really need published data etc. This is done everyday. Its not something so far fetched that we need proof do we? Just an example.

So, by hybridizing, we are able to understand the genetics better of two frogs that are close to or are extinct by being able to reproduce off spring. Which, unfortunately, has nothing to do with the price of eggs in China


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## dartboard (Jan 30, 2011)

The simple answer is that there is such an amazing spectrum of colors/patterns with dart frogs that it awesome to preserve this in the hobby.

Most, not all, reptiles tend to be a rather bland natural color that the hobbyist then spruce up and change... ball pythons probably being the main culprit. 

For right or wrong, the dart frog community has developed as very very pro natural and non altered genetic lines. There is still quite a bit of selective breeding that goes on. Not really a way to stop people from buying what they view is the prettiest version of a species and then breeding those pretty versions to make more of that version

Im sure there are some that mix, but currently the far majority of the hobbyist like to keep it non-mixed


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

sdlyager said:


> It was simply an example of what can be accomplished with Hybridization.


My point is that if it is not science, and done via the scientific method, any accomplishments are merely curiosity. How do we even know if some of those traits were brought out by confounding variables like environment? We can't. All that we know is a guy who says he works for an official sounding firm, says he bred 2 frogs together. That is it.

PS: I like the Chinese egg reference, back at me. Many have simply expressed confusion when faced with that question. :thumbUP:


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## sdlyager (Jan 30, 2012)

aspidites73 said:


> My point is that if it is not science, and done via the scientific method, any accomplishments are merely curiosity. How do we even know if some of those traits were brought out by confounding variables like environment? We can't. All that we know is a guy who says he works for an official sounding firm, says he bred 2 frogs together. That is it.
> 
> PS: I like the Chinese egg reference, back at me. Many have simply expressed confusion when faced with that question. :thumbUP:


I can agree that "scientific study" and selective breeding are certainly two different pools/fights. But we can't attack hybridization without at least recognizing that there is a time and place for it. Just maybe not in our homes


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

I think another factor in the hybrid -v- natural debate is the fact that most hybrids will be created by accident or other-than-organized methods. It's the same difference between buying a Labradoodle from an accredited breeder or getting a free dog from a guys who's poodle got banged by the Labrador next door. 

(I am pro natural BTW.... and very anti Labradoodle. This is just one of the elephants that I see people often hint at but not point out directly when having this debate). 

I suppose that brings in another hypothetical topic for discussion: Let's say a company follows the guidelines in creating a defined standard for a defined hybrid with documentation and glass table policy with it's breedings, origins, etc.....does that change anything? If the hobby standards do not change and said hybrid is kept in isolation as many of the natural lines are, does the topic for debate shift to talk of general mindset and preference in terms of what people like to keep?


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## LexisaurusRex (Aug 8, 2013)

Yes I knew cross breeding (different morphs and such) was bad and could potentially cause problems. I was wondering why line breeding or selective breeding to get certain patterns and colors would be bad.


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## LexisaurusRex (Aug 8, 2013)

Thanks harpo that was a great breakdown with many valid points. 
Edit:
I don't know about you guys but I would find it fascinating to see what could be done to the gene pool outside of nature and the hobby in a purely scientific setting (if everything is humane). 
There's been huge strides in medicine from frog toxins. I read of a pain killer 200x more potent than morphine theyve created from dendrobates toxins. What if they can breed a frog to cure cancer? But that's an entirely different ball field.,..

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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Please no one dis LexiandScott for I wonder the same question


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Harpo said:


> I think another factor in the hybrid -v- natural debate is the fact that most hybrids will be created by accident or other-than-organized methods. It's the same difference between buying a Labradoodle from an accredited breeder or getting a free dog from a guys who's poodle got banged by the Labrador next door.
> 
> (I am pro natural BTW.... and very anti Labradoodle. This is just one of the elephants that I see people often hint at but not point out directly when having this debate).
> 
> I suppose that brings in another hypothetical topic for discussion: Let's say a company follows the guidelines in creating a defined standard for a defined hybrid with documentation and glass table policy with it's breedings, origins, etc.....does that change anything? If the hobby standards do not change and said hybrid is kept in isolation as many of the natural lines are, does the topic for debate shift to talk of general mindset and preference in terms of what people like to keep?


OK, I'll play. "John" is well aware that the frogs he just purchased are hybrids. He purchased them a company that follows the guidelines in creating a defined standard for a defined hybrid with documentation and glass table policy with it's breedings, origins, etc... 
1) John raises them responsibly and they never get confused or accidently/on purpose mixed into a pure blood line. All appears to be fine.
2) John is tired of frogs, or maybe he got a promotion and simply doesn't have time for them. He's got a week to rehome them and he fails to do so. Hybrid frogs now go up on Craigslist or dropped off at a local pet shop because no way is John going to destroy them. They now have every chance of being mixed into a pure blood line, possibly permanently damaging that bloodline.
3) John is stricken with a long term illness and somebody else has to make decisions on distributing his collection. Did John have his tanks well labeled that it was a crossbreed? Does the person who tells a pet store to come and get them, even care? 
4) Let's look at number one again. John raises them successfully and has offspring. Does John destroy the offspring? (doubtful...could you?) So John strives to find new, responsible owners to take care of his cross bred frogs. John sets up 3 of his friends with hybrids. Now we have not just John who could accidently lose control of the line, but also 3 others. 

And then they tell 3 friends

and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends

and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends

Haha, I couldn't resist the "3 friends" commercial there, but do you see what I'm getting at? Once they get out there, what keeps them from finding their way into the general population? Keep in mind that they may look very similar to a pure lineage frog. It's just too easy for them to slip back into the general population, and the longer they are out there, the easier it is for them to contaminate one of the parent lines.

If they get crossed into the general population, and that population is muddied, it may be gone forever. That morph may be extinct, protected, on simply not collectable from that country. Who's fault would the loss of that species to the hobby, be? Is it John's fault? A friend of a friend of John's let them into the general population. Does that mean John allowed the mixed blood to get out of his control? What about the initial creator of the morph? He apparently did not police his creations very well, but then is policing them any of his business or concern? 

Personally, I will NOT be doing any crossbreeding. Accidents happen, and *if a crossbred frog slips out of my hands, it slips out of control. It does NOT slip out of my responsibility.*


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Oops, I meant to say, 
"if a crossbred frog slips out of my hands, it slips out of *MY* control..."


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

*


Pumilo said:



OK, I'll play. "John" is well aware that the frogs he just purchased are hybrids. He purchased them a company that follows the guidelines in creating a defined standard for a defined hybrid with documentation and glass table policy with it's breedings, origins, etc... 
1) John raises them responsibly and they never get confused or accidently/on purpose mixed into a pure blood line. All appears to be fine.
2) John is tired of frogs, or maybe he got a promotion and simply doesn't have time for them. He's got a week to rehome them and he fails to do so. Hybrid frogs now go up on Craigslist or dropped off at a local pet shop because no way is John going to destroy them. They now have every chance of being mixed into a pure blood line, possibly permanently damaging that bloodline.
3) John is stricken with a long term illness and somebody else has to make decisions on distributing his collection. Did John have his tanks well labeled that it was a crossbreed? Does the person who tells a pet store to come and get them, even care? 
4) Let's look at number one again. John raises them successfully and has offspring. Does John destroy the offspring? (doubtful...could you?) So John strives to find new, responsible owners to take care of his cross bred frogs. John sets up 3 of his friends with hybrids. Now we have not just John who could accidently lose control of the line, but also 3 others. 

And then they tell 3 friends

and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends

and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends
and then they tell 3 friends

Haha, I couldn't resist the "3 friends" commercial there, but do you see what I'm getting at? Once they get out there, what keeps them from finding their way into the general population? Keep in mind that they may look very similar to a pure lineage frog. It's just too easy for them to slip back into the general population, and the longer they are out there, the easier it is for them to contaminate one of the parent lines.

If they get crossed into the general population, and that population is muddied, it may be gone forever. That morph may be extinct, protected, on simply not collectable from that country. Who's fault would the loss of that species to the hobby, be? Is it John's fault? A friend of a friend of John's let them into the general population. Does that mean John allowed the mixed blood to get out of his control? What about the initial creator of the morph? He apparently did not police his creations very well, but then is policing them any of his business or concern? 

Personally, I will NOT be doing any crossbreeding. Accidents happen, and if a crossbred frog slips out of my hands, it slips out of control. It does NOT slip out of my responsibility.[/QUOTE

Click to expand...

*


Pumilo said:


> I don't know Doug. I get it and agree with you, but realistically you are saying "John's neighbor's lab banged his poodle" in a more elaborate way.
> 
> Lets use dogs again. The crossbreeding as you describe in the dog hobby ruins/dirties the lines. If through planning, standards, etc....could this not follow the same standards as the dog hobby in terms of hybrids? I mean, come on.... if someone is breeding/keeping Afghan Hounds do you think they are going to let the neighbor's unfixed dog (that they rescued from the local hack on Craigslist) anywhere NEAR their PRIZED specimen(s)? Of course not, but accidents happen and as you admit none of us are immune to goofs.
> 
> ...


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

Do any of the old timers have a history/links of how the PDF standards started? I imagine this is some awesome conversation/philosophy if their was a dialogue. I can easily see how it may have happened on its own. 

Fascinating, really, either way.


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## DendroKurt (Mar 19, 2013)

Would it be ok in the frog community to cross a bill schwinn line patricia with a Patrick nabors patricia? Same species same collection point slightly different patterns... I


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

DendroKurt said:


> Would it be ok in the frog community to cross a bill schwinn line patricia with a Patrick nabors patricia? Same species same collection point slightly different patterns... I


It would be encouraged. 
BTW, Bill said his Patricias are actually from Glenn Novotny, which I believe were WC imports.


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## DendroKurt (Mar 19, 2013)

Excellent! By the way Kevin that little patricia I got from you is doing great! Thanks for such a nice yellow and healthy patricia!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Harpo said:


> Shall a pro-hybridizer choose to ever market their Frankenstein, wouldn't the pro-naturalizers want a say in what goes? After all, it protects that side of the hobby as well.)


How would me saying, "OK, let's lay down some rules for crossbreeding and handling the sales of them", possibly protect the natural side of the hobby? That would be me saying that it's ok after all.
How would it possibly protect anything? All the rules and regulations in the world would have absolutely no bearing on the possible circumstances I presented. If someone is sick, in a coma, dies, or just gets sick of the frog hobby, those frogs are NOT labeled in any way and they CAN get back into the hobby.
I'm sorry but I'm not walking down that road. If I wasn't clear, I am against crossbreeding, hybridizing, and selectively breeding for colors and patterns. 

When people start selling cross bred frogs, no rule I try to make will keep that frog out of the general population. That frog is out there and anything could happen. At that point, it is too late for me to voice my opinion. My chance to be "more productive", is right now. So in case I wasn't clear, I am against crossbreeding, hybridizing, and selectively breeding for colors and patterns.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> How would me saying, "OK, let's lay down some rules for crossbreeding and handling the sales of them", possibly protect the natural side of the hobby? That would be me saying that it's ok after all.
> How would it possibly protect anything? All the rules and regulations in the world would have absolutely no bearing on the possible circumstances I presented. If someone is sick, in a coma, dies, or just gets sick of the frog hobby, those frogs are NOT labeled in any way and they CAN get back into the hobby.
> I'm sorry but I'm not walking down that road. If I wasn't clear, I am against crossbreeding, hybridizing, and selectively breeding for colors and patterns.
> 
> When people start selling cross bred frogs, no rule I try to make will keep that frog out of the general population. That frog is out there and anything could happen. At that point, it is too late for me to voice my opinion. My chance to be "more productive", is right now. So in case I wasn't clear, I am against crossbreeding, hybridizing, and selectively breeding for colors and patterns.


You were very clear and have been in any writing of yours that I have encountered.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you when you say that you have no power of influence. 

Doug, I am simply saying that its very possible that the hobby will see many instances of hybrids.... and probably sooner than later. PDF keeping in general has gotten SO much more user friendly in the past decade. This invites waves and waves of new hobbiest....thus increasing the chance for things to get out of hand before we even realize it. 

Anything can already happen with current locale standards, that's all I am saying. I respect and agree with your stance. However I disagree with strict militant opposition... if you do not set the standard for those people that stray in thought, then they will set their own standard and/or live by their own wayward opinion of "whats the right thing to do". I think its silly to think that by saying "don't do that!" and then looking away that it simply won't run astray. Already we see threads of pet stores all over having a "hybrid-for-sale" tank. And (a) REPUTABLE pet store(s) for that matter.

Why not educate those potential buyers into standards? Why not educate the pet stores? Sure if someone is willing to search the hell out of DB, other sites and Google you will find the answers..... but I am sorry... average folks will not do this. I think people should be told bluntly "if you house frog A and frog B together and babies happen, (whatever the standard) should be done". This should be stickied, essayed and page devoted across the online media format. 

Of course the come back is "why not educate them before they buy them?". I agree. But as the number of hobbiest begin to grow it so does the potential for any David-Tyree-Type (reef) hybrid to all of a sudden enter the hobby. That's when it gets hairy.... and you power for influence is blown out of the water. 

I am not asking for you to any way suggest to anyone that it is ok. I would love for someone old school to finally say the hobby is much bigger than it was 5..10...15 years ago. 

It might be a good idea to readdress some theory or atleast remarket the existing theory.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

*How would me saying, "OK, let's lay down some rules for crossbreeding and handling the sales of them", possibly protect the natural side of the hobby?*

I suppose restating the rules for husbandry to include separation of hybrids, even within hybrids, would better describe where I am going with this..... and honestly the benefits to the natural side are obvious to me when an average hobbiest accidentally buys a dart from another average hobbiest....but hobbiest A is a standard locale keeper and hobbiest B is a less than standard keeper with hybrids included in the stock. 

Right now this is not a huge problem, I would imagine, but it can get out of hand if people don't atleast discuss it.


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

I think Pumilo pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm sure at one point all of us have wondered what the product would be of hybridizing different sub-species of frogs but really, variables such as those mention by Pumilo have potential to wreak havoc on a hobby that has decidedly taken a strong stance against hybridizing.

My understanding of why is because a lot of the habitat that these frogs come from is being destroyed and there is real potential for certain dendrobatids to go extinct. The idea of not hybridizing frogs is to keep the frogs the same as you find in nature, in case, at on point they don't exists in nature. This way they could be studied, enjoyed by posterity and perhaps on day even reintroduced.

Harpo: I might be completely missing your point but I think that comparing domestic dogs, an animal that has been created by man by selective line breeding and hybridizing over generations to achieve different traits, to our hobby is like comparing apples and oranges.

The motivation and intentions between hybridizing and not hybridizing these two different animals are and have been completely different.

Yes people line breed to achieve certain traits in frogs while staying in the same subspecies. Is this encouraged? While it may be accepted by some I don't think it's encouraged. 

From my understanding maintaining as much genetic diversity while not mixing frogs that would be found in different locales is the best practice. Line breeding does not encourage genetic diversity.


"Shall a pro-hybridizer choose to ever market their Frankenstein, wouldn't the pro-naturalizers want a say in what goes?"

Yes, I think the pro naturalizers would say euthanize the Frankensteins and stop hybridizing. 

Bottom line is if your going to hybridize your frogs and don't want to catch grief don't tell anybody, keep them in your basement like those poor girls in Cleveland and duct tape a post it to the Frankensteins tank that says; "In case of my immediate death it is imperative that these frogs be buried with me"


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

BrainBug said:


> I think Pumilo pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm sure at one point all of us have wondered what the product would be of hybridizing different sub-species of frogs but really, variables such as those mention by Pumilo have potential to wreak havoc on a hobby that has decidedly taken a strong stance against hybridizing.
> 
> My understanding of why is because a lot of the habitat that these frogs come from is being destroyed and there is real potential for certain dendrobatids to go extinct. The idea of not hybridizing frogs is to keep the frogs the same as you find in nature, in case, at on point they don't exists in nature. This way they could be studied, enjoyed by posterity and perhaps on day even reintroduced.
> 
> ...


I do disagree with your disagreement of the dog hybriding. Dogs as we know them were bred for specific traits, period. Thus in that light it applies to any species of animal we breed for any reason possible....even PDF locale breeding, as you describe, in the hope of assisting nature as needed in the future. 

I do however share a similar romancing of the Noah scenario.... and may our Arc be built by Hagen! WITH Euro ventilation!

Seriously though..... do you think every single person with a hybrid down the road will subscribe to that last paragraph? I think we are clinging to idealogy to expect that. Especially in this economy. $20-a-froglet goes a long way when you need it. 

Again, I am not saying Lets Go Hybrid The Devil Outta These Buggers. But I am also not going to suggest that someone in the future won't see an opportunity to create a budget friendly hybrid and cash in on it.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

LexiandScott said:


> Yes I knew cross breeding (different morphs and such) was bad and could potentially cause problems. I was wondering why line breeding or selective breeding to get certain patterns and colors would be bad.


In case no one else address this question -- both line and selective breeding are "bad" because you delete genes from the gene pool in the process, and you're left with less genetically diverse individuals. This is the same problem with inbreeding, where you'll get less healthy populations arising from the lack of genetic diversity.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

hypostatic said:


> In case no one else address this question -- both line and selective breeding are "bad" because you delete genes from the gene pool in the process, and you're left with less genetically diverse individuals. This is the same problem with inbreeding, where you'll get less healthy populations arising from the lack of genetic diversity.


I'll add... much to the demise of Brainbug  that this is VERY evident in the general hobby of dog breeding. From hip dysplasia (Bernards, various Mastiffs, Rotts, etc) to skin disease (Blue Pit, English Bulldog, etc) to general psychosis (Dalmation, Chow Chow, etc). This can easily be a case study in relation to the dart hobby and what-could-be.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Oh yes, the effects of line/selective breeding is clearly seen in dogs. Talk to any vet, and they'll tell you how most (if not all?) dog breeds suffer from health problems due to the way they were "designed".

Seeing as we know much more about the genetics of dogs than we do of dart frogs and we still end up with dogs that have a long list of health problems, it would be irresponsible and foolish to do this with dart frogs and to expect a different outcome.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

hypostatic said:


> Oh yes, the effects of line/selective breeding is clearly seen in dogs. Talk to any vet, and they'll tell you how most (if not all?) dog breeds suffer from health problems due to the way they were "designed".
> 
> Seeing as we know much more about the genetics of dogs than we do of dart frogs and we still end up with dogs that have a long list of health problems, it would be irresponsible and foolish to do this with dart frogs and to expect a different outcome.


Many though may see the risk and calculate it as worthy, don't you think? *edit "many" may be the wrong word here...how about "a lot" or "enough"

To those people I go back to my original questions. Is it worth acknowledging these folks and atleast saying "we don't like what you are doing, but please consider doing it like_ this_". As stated, I see a productive value.

I have another angle.... strictly for conversation. (Please, any math majors, engineers, old school hobbiests or biology pros jump in *NOW*). What about limited import population? Wasn't the original import of UE Tarapotos ~12 individuals? I am unsure of the exact number nor am I certain of the male to female ratios.....nor the tank placement of these individuals nor the standards followed by the initial breeding population to ensure diversity, etc........

Is inline breeding based on current local standardization not prevalent in the current gene pool of local standards? Well....maybe not _defined_ inline breeding, but is there not at least a severely restricted gene pool in the hobby?

How about specific yearly imports? 

(I don't mean to challenge anyone here.... _I literally do not know and I am curious_. Do these limited import populations in fact yield similar statistical concerns in terms of health and genetics?)


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Harpo said:


> You were very clear and have been in any writing of yours that I have encountered.
> 
> I wholeheartedly disagree with you when you say that you have no power of influence.


I never said that. Please do not put words in my mouth. I am well aware that there are some who value my opinions. I am practicing my power of influence right now. 
Do you know what happens if you tell a child, "Do not take that cookie, but if you do, at least have some milk with it."? The child eats the cookie. Do you know what happens if you put the keys to your car on the table and tell a 16 year old boy, "Do NOT take my car...but if you do, make sure to gas it up."? The boy drives the car.
So I can meekly suggest that I don't much care for crossbreeding, while I tell them it's ok if they follow my rules...Or I can shout it from the mountaintops and try to teach before it's too late.

Quite frankly I'm a little irritated that you continue to push this, when you absolutely refuse to even address what I have said. Here it is again.
*HOW DO YOU CONTROL THE FROG IN JOHN'S HANDS?* 
I'm serious. You pushed the issue, so answer the huge question in front of you.
How do you control the frog in John's hands? I have spelled this out in black and white, and in great detail. There is absolutely NOTHING you can do to control the circumstances of everyday life. What are your rules going to do when John dies? 
Don't you see that everybody is not going to follow whatever rules you propose? Quite frankly, I think it's naive to think that everybody will religiously track these crossbreeds and make sure they are accounted for. You do realize that many people don't even have a clue as the lineage of their current frogs, right? Does it make any sense at all to you that people already confuse bloodlines and lose track of lineage? Besides that, of course, you continue to refuse to address how even a full set of 10,000 rules and regulations regarding crossbreeding, will ever address the circumstances I originally presented.
The FACT of the matter is that NOBODY can control what happens to a crossbreed once it is created.

Do you know that I know more than a little about the coral hobby? I'm fairly sure you are referring to Steve Tyree, and you obviously know absolutely nothing about him. The Steve Tyree collectors corals sold by Dynamic Ecomorphology were ALL 100% natural morphs collected in the oceans, and propogated in captivity by his coral co-op of dedicated hobbyists. Do your homework before dragging Tyree into this crossbreeding mess. Have you even read any of Steve's books before accusing him of flinging crossbred corals all across the country?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Biologist "pro" here

There is indeed a much reduced genetic pool for each species In the hobby. See founder effect:
Founder effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This presents a problem in managing our captive species because in small populations with limited genetic variance, we see that undesirable traits show up at a much higher frequency than in the wild. One example is albinism, which is a bad trait to have. Albino dart frogs are usually weaker, and sometimes don't even survive to adulthood in captive care. You'll notice that albino frogs show up in captivity rather frequently, but you might never find one in the wild.

I'm not too familiar with the math on how this works, but I've posted before on the same subject of how albinism occurs at a greater frequency in captivity even though it causes decreased fitness in individuals. I've used a program called PopG to illiterate this. I don't have the resources at the moment to plot it all out, but you can tinker with e program yourself to see how small populations affect negative traits showing up:
PopG Genetic Simulation Program


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Oh, and here's a link to the topic I was talking about
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/71685-baby-albino-vanzolini-7.html


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> I never said that. Please do not put words in my mouth. I am well aware that there are some who value my opinions. I am practicing my power of influence right now.
> Do you know what happens if you tell a child, "Do not take that cookie, but if you do, at least have some milk with it."? The child eats the cookie. Do you know what happens if you put the keys to your car on the table and tell a 16 year old boy, "Do NOT take my car...but if you do, make sure to gas it up."? The boy drives the car.
> So I can meekly suggest that I don't much care for crossbreeding, while I tell them it's ok if they follow my rules...Or I can shout it from the mountaintops and try to teach before it's too late.
> 
> ...


Doug, when you read my posts with irritation then my posts will be read as pushy and combative. My questions present realistic conversation. I am not pushing anything.

I have not put any words in your mouth. I generalized what you appeared to be saying. Sorry to upset you.

Thank you for the correction on Tyree's first name. I referred to him in the sense of his "Limited" and "Exclusive" edition that Limited Edition surely does provide and market VERY well. You are right I should not have used the word "hybrid". 

Lastly, to answer your big question is simple. You are right, you can not control. You can only influence. That's my answer and has always been my answer. Sorry to be so pushy, man.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

hypostatic said:


> Biologist "pro" here
> 
> There is indeed a much reduced genetic pool for each species In the hobby. See founder effect:
> Founder effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...





hypostatic said:


> Oh, and here's a link to the topic I was talking about
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/71685-baby-albino-vanzolini-7.html


Thank you for the links. I am going to read these later today.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

ithink i get it.....


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Harpo, how will your "rules" address the majority of the hobby that isn't active on forums?? They get their frogs via websites, or reptile shows. They keep and breed their frogs with very little to no interaction with the "organized hobby" How are your rules going to control their hybrids and crosses? How are you going to prevent them from entering the hobby and tainting pure blood lines?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Close to Closing Time here ....

s


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Harpo said:


> I have not put any words in your mouth. I generalized what you appeared to be saying. Sorry to upset you.





Harpo said:


> you say that you have no power of influence.


I get that you were generalizing, but you generalized wrong, and you put words in my mouth. I never stated that I have no power of influence. When you put it that way, I am offended because it comes across as me simply giving up on what I believe. I am not. You simply don't care for my anti-crossbreeding tactics.

You caught that I was irritated, good. It irritates me because you claim to understand. You backpedal over and over again saying YOU are all for natural, but let's just TALK about crossbreeding. Talking about it has been done to death, and you keep admitting you aren't even really for it. So yes, I'm irritated to be doing the same thing again, especially when it seems so "Devils Advocate". I don't look at mixing threads as a game, sorry. I chose my words poorly when I said "I'll play".

Harpo, have you ever even considered that the pro-mixers HATE MY GUTS? What in the world makes you think they would hold any value at all, to any rules that *I* came up with? It would be a huge exercise in futility and a colossal waste of my time. Then, in the end, do you know what people would remember? "Doug is OK with crossbreeding after all. As long as we follow his rules, everything is OK."
In any world, on the best of days, with all the planets lined up, how would that not be hypocritical of me? 
Harpo, if I did that, I would lose all respect on the board. Shoot, I couldn't even respect myself anymore. I would completely and totally discredit myself and every word I've ever uttered on here.
Harpo, do you remember this comment?


Harpo said:


> I think its silly to think that by saying "don't do that!" and then looking away that it simply won't run astray.


I am NOT looking away and running away. I am fighting tooth and nail for what I believe in. I'm sorry you don't see it that way, but trust me, I AM exercising whatever little influence I may have.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Hybrid frogs have been around for years, probably decade, but well over a decade (see Wall's big coffee table book). 

There is no way to make a "rule" that people will follow - any rule in our hobby. People are going to do as they please and if there's money in it, someone will follow the money. We, as a hobby, just need to learn to live with it. Pick your frog sources carefully, take your time and if you have to pay a little more to get something your confident in then do it. Common sense is the key to this problem because its not going away. 

In addition, we need to work on our vocabulary. Crossing an azureus with a power blue is not a hybrid. A hybrid is breeding different species together. Also there are no subspecies of Dendrobatid - there are morphs. Morphs have no taxonomic status. 

Education is the key but check what you learn - there's a bit of bad information out there and not enough people willing to take the time to clean it up. 

Best,

Chuck


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

Harpo said:


> I do disagree with your disagreement of the dog hybriding. Dogs as we know them were bred for specific traits, period. Thus in that light it applies to any species of animal we breed for any reason possible....even PDF locale breeding, as you describe, in the hope of assisting nature as needed in the future.
> 
> I do however share a similar romancing of the Noah scenario.... and may our Arc be built by Hagen! WITH Euro ventilation!
> 
> ...


I disagree with your disagreeing of my disagreeing of the dog hybridizing. That some animals are bred for specific traits to meet human needs, often selfishly has nothing to do with a hobby that is trying to keep the animals as close to natural as possible for stated selfless reasons (although, yes, most of us primarily keep frogs for our own enjoyment.)

Yes, many dog breeds have known health issues and they are still bred and bought because it is and has been an accepted practice.

What Pumilo is saying that once you make rules for something you are giving approval to do that thing. 

People kill people too but that doesn't mean that rather then keeping it a crime we should set up proper guidelines for murder.

Our hobby is a kind of a niche hobby. Chances are people who are in it and breeding and trading frogs will, if not when getting into the hobby certainly when networking to sell offspring, find out that mixing morphs is frowned upon. You have to have faith that people will do the right thing and anybody who is already knowingly doing the "wrong" thing probably wouldn't pay regard to said rules anyway.



Harpo said:


> I'll add... much to the demise of Brainbug  that this is VERY evident in the general hobby of dog breeding. From hip dysplasia (Bernards, various Mastiffs, Rotts, etc) to skin disease (Blue Pit, English Bulldog, etc) to general psychosis (Dalmation, Chow Chow, etc). This can easily be a case study in relation to the dart hobby and what-could-be.



Your just emphasizing a point that I brought up and another guy restated. Go back and read both posts.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

I think my original thought has gotten lost in misinterpretation by some readers of this thread. 

I simply meant the hobby is growing like crazy right now. I do not think it's a far off thought to one day see a designer hybrid/morph/or otherwise for sale...or even a full blown market place. I never said I agree with this. I do however fully acknowledge that this may one day exist, and in that spirit only I pose the following idea for your thought: Why not develop an additional declaration or standard that says to the hybriders "you stay on that side and we will stay on this side. We do not like what you do, but God man if you are going to do it at least have the common courtesy to organize yourself so WE do not have to guess as to what the hell you have been doing over there". 

That's all I'm saying guys.

If this part of the hybrid conversation has been talked to death Doug, I missed it.

*Trust me, there is no backtracking in where I stand. * And there was certainly no desire to irritate you or raise your blood pressure. 

I never meant rules for enforcement or policing.... it's more in line with befriending you best enemy in a effort to keep a better eye on him. 

People of the current standard are so strong in their beliefs for good reason. I subscribe to this reasoning. It's troubling to me, though, that the current standard subscribers would in no way want to atleast have a hand in how the other teams plays. This is in an effort to create advantages for your own current game plan by giving foundation to theirs. This does not give any credit or acceptance. It's a matter of protecting the bottom line that we have in our standard. 

I am just thinking outside the current box of thought. I thought it may be a good conversation and different from the current dialogue.

There is no way to prevent future mixing or introduction of any species, let alone hybrids. I get where Doug and Jon are coming from and I think we all have a similar end-game in mind, just very different theories on how to get there. Let me please add that I respect both of you as hobbyist. You both, along with a great number of other hardcore people set the bar in this hobby.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

BrainBug said:


> 1. I disagree with your disagreeing of my disagreeing of the dog hybridizing.
> 
> 2. What Pumilo is saying that once you make rules for something you are giving approval to do that thing.


1. Best line of the thread.

2. This is where things went batty. Doug and I disagree in that he says it gives approval, while I say it gives acknowledgement. Again, my angle all stems on theory of where the hobby could go. 

Brainbug, I appreciate the mediation. Honestly, that one sentence can sum up the conversation. 

If any of the others want to add to the conversation or give a closing, I am happy to hand over the reigns on this. Have a great Sunday folks.


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

Harpo said:


> I simply meant the hobby is growing like crazy right now. I do not think it's a far off thought to one day see a designer hybrid/morph/or otherwise for sale...or even a full blown market place. I never said I agree with this. I do however fully acknowledge that this may one day exist, and in that spirit only I pose the following idea for your thought: Why not develop an additional declaration or standard that says to the hybriders "you stay on that side and we will stay on this side. We do not like what you do, but God man if you are going to do it at least have the common courtesy to organize yourself so WE do not have to guess as to what the hell you have been doing over there".


That is essentially giving approval. What you would be doing is creating a lot of new people in the hobby who will immediately start mixing frogs in an attempt to breed. If you where brand new to the hobby and went to an expo and saw one vendor selling frogs, separated by morph and the vendor tells you not to mix tanks and certainly not to breed different morphs and then you go talk to another vendor who tells you "that's just one school of thought but a lot of us really like to mix tanks and create hybrids because you never know what your going to get." What would sound better to you? 

That it is currently taboo is what keeps situations like that from being a common occurrence.

Again, why would these people who are already doing something they know is frowned upon follow the rules. To me it seemed quite clear, even before finding this forum, just from reading the first paperback dart frog book I bought at the local pet store, that the "rule" was do not mix frogs.

The point is that by setting guidelines like that while you may not be accepting the practice you are making it more acceptable. Is that really where you think the hobby should be going?


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

> That is essentially giving approval. What you would be doing is creating a lot of new people in the hobby who will immediately start mixing frogs in an attempt to breed. If you where brand new to the hobby and went to an expo and saw one vendor selling frogs, separated by morph and the vendor tells you not to mix tanks and certainly not to breed different morphs and then you go talk to another vendor who tells you "that's just one school of thought but a lot of us really like to mix tanks and create hybrids because you never know what your going to get." What would sound better to you?


That is what I see a lot as it is. A lot of times newer people will come to the board, post about a mixed tank, hear that they shouldn't do it, yet wait or repost the same questions numerous times until someone says it can be done.. or they leave the board to never come back. Who knows what they decide to do after that. They may listen, they may not. If they do not listen.. then they will most likely end up with hybrid frogs. Those will try to make their way back into the hobby.. so people are very cautious about who they buy from, for good reason. 

When I was newer, I had the same thoughts. I wanted a nice, colorful tank with different types of poison dart frogs. Upon reading numerous threads, finding out that it isn't a good thing to do, I changed my mind and went with a nice tank of leucomelas. I wanted to add some different colors to my frogs.. so here came viv 2 for my oyapoks. Now I want to add something different.. so here comes build 3. If I had read that some of the more respected members on here had given up and gave the 'Eh, do what you want' response.. that would have been different. I'm happy that people feel so strongly about this hobby and their frogs to not advocate for mixing. I think that I made the best choice for the frogs and would never go back on that.. regardless if it became 'accepted' or not.

We spend so much time making a natural environment for our natural frogs.. to mimic what they would find in the wild. With hybrids.. who knows what they would really need.. what would be best for them.. because after a while, no one even knows what they are anymore.

This isn't touching on any particular post by anyone (other than the quoted portion).. just my opinion that I wanted to add to the topic.


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