# Alternative Feeders for Darties



## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

Hello All

Well, I feed my frogs on a diet of melo, hydei fruit flies, dusted of course, with bean beetles when I can get them. However... I believe a varied diet is essential to long life of any creature, and I want my frogs to have the best that I can provide.

To that end... can we make a list of good alternative feeders other than what I mentioned?

Please specify if it is for larger or smaller frogs. For example, could larger frogs like Tincts or Terriblis eat Black Soldier Fly Larvae? BSFL? 

I have already tried tiny chopped up earthworm, but not with much success. My Cobalts - Grom and Tiddlemuncha did not approve and did not eat the wriggling bits LOL.

Looking forward to your suggestions!


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

There are no 'alternatives' to supplemented (with Repahsy) fruitflies. 
These always should be the main dieet since the supplements will provide everything the animals require to maintain their health. 

All other insects are 'additions' to their dieet, but should never be their main scource for nutrition. Rather the occasional sidedish.

Once a week all my frogs receive either ; aphids, springtails and when on hand : meadowplankton or thermobia domestica (firebrats?).


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'm pretty sure the jury is out on whether a varied diet is necessary for the long term well being of all animals, or of a certain species. Some of that belief is fallacious anthropomorphization (generalizing from the diet of an omnivore -- humans -- to that of a relative dietary specialist). There are also plenty of counterexamples among captive animals. 

Darts may be one of those counterexamples, in part because of their natural diet but also because of the fairly uniform deficiencies among captive raised feeder insects. An educated decision on what feeders to add to the diet might be made by looking to the available data on nutrient analyses (such as here: Nutrition of Common Reptile Feeders), although AFAIK there really isn't any information on how much of anything other than calcium is needed by frogs.

There is also the increased risk of pathogens to consider when expanding the range of offerings. Adding another prey item to the menu increases that risk (by how much, I don't think we know).  A parasitological evaluation of edible insects and their role in the transmission of parasitic diseases to humans and animals

Do keep in mind that bean beetles are anecdotally linked to an increased incidence of cloacal prolapse. My tincs didn't care for them the couple times I offered, but they do eat rice flour beetle larvae. Rice flour beetles are a troublesome feeder to deal with, though, because of the difficulty in separating out the adult beetles (and so I haven't offered these to any of my thumbnails) -- I just happen to have them around anyway for feeding other herps that are too small to take much else. FWIW, the species I do feed the larvae to (_Hemidactylus imbricatus) _do pretty poorly on Hydei -- another reason not to infer prey choices from one species to another.

All darts kept in typical vivs get at least some springtails and isopods, so they're already getting more of a variety than many other captive herps.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

As mentioned above, there are no alternatives to fruit flies in a Captive Dart Frog care/food regimen.

there are possible "supplemental' feeder insects.

Not coming down on you, but the proper terminology is essential here.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I'm pretty sure the jury is out on whether a varied diet is necessary for the long term well being of all animals, or of a certain species.


I think dart frogs do just fine on a varied diet or just dusted fruit flies and what ever they find crawling around in the leave of the tank.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Tijl said:


> when on hand : meadowplankton


So, I'm not the only one that still does that? It used to be a fairly common practice. I'm not saying it is with out it's risks. But, it is interesting to watch their prey selection.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

bulbophyllum said:


> I think dart frogs do just fine on a varied diet or just dusted fruit flies and what ever they find crawling around in the leave of the tank.


I have to disagree since this is not the case as a 'varied' diet(*) won't get them all the essential vitamines and minerals the animals actualy require to thrive long term. The term varied diet has also quite the possibility of interpretation. 

'just dusted fruitflies' is also a poor choice of words I think. Proppet supplementation is probably the most important part of keeping frogs healthy. Again, long term.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

bulbophyllum said:


> So, I'm not the only one that still does that? It used to be a fairly common practice. I'm not saying it is with out it's risks. But, it is interesting to watch their prey selection.


Yeah, tbh I know quite a few frog keepers who feed the animals occasionaly meadowplankton


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Tijl said:


> I have to disagree since this is not the case as a 'varied' diet(*) won't get them all the essential vitamines and minerals the animals actualy require to thrive long term. The term varied diet has also quite the possibility of interpretation.
> 
> 'just dusted fruitflies' is also a poor choice of words I think. Proppet supplementation is probably the most important part of keeping frogs healthy. Again, long term.



Sorry. What I was trying to convey was, Dart frogs will be just fine on properly supplemented fruit flies. Or properly supplemented fruit flies and what ever handful of other feeders you decide to mix in as long as properly supplemented flies are the staple.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tijl said:


> Yeah, tbh I know quite a few frog keepers who feed the animals occasionaly meadowplankton


This seems to be more common in Europe. 

There was a discussion a while back (that I can't seem to find now) about whether that practice might entail a pathogen risk. The article on parasites of edible insects that I linked above was a pretty strong counterargument to the idea that captive raised insects are cleaner than wild collected.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

How can there be any doubt about the benefits of a varied diet when the _heavily_ restricted captive diet is what necessitates supplementation in the first place? 
I don't keep dart frogs but I conducted an experiment years ago with Rana temporaria froglets where they were fed either on dusted fruit flies or exclusively on non supplemented meadow plankton and the froglets receiving only wild collected meadowplankton grew far larger, faster and were far more vigorous than those fed on dusted fruit flies and I've observed the same in other species too.
I'm not suggesting people could or should avoid supplementation for captive animals but I think it's obviously worth providing a varied diet. Studies on wild dart frog gut contents mention things like "83% Formicids,11% Acari" but it's easy to overlook that these figures represent a very diverse range of prey species.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Louis said:


> How can there be any doubt about the benefits of a varied diet when the _heavily_ restricted captive diet is what necessitates supplementation in the first place?


Supplementation is not necessitated by a variety-restricted diet. Supplementation is necessitated by a diet of captive raised (in the typical ways; whether those insects could be raised in a way that addresses some of those deficiencies is an interesting but distinct question) insects whether of one species or many. All captive raised feeder insects have basically the same deficiencies (bad Ca/P ratio, lack of vitamins A and D), and so varying the diet of captive raised insects cannot remedy those deficiencies.

The example given above regarding fruit flies vs meadowplankton is an example of captive vs wild insects, not one vs many species of insects since the insects in the varied condition were of a categorically different nature than that in the unitary condition.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Louis said:


> How can there be any doubt about the benefits of a varied diet when the _heavily_ restricted captive diet is what necessitates supplementation in the first place?


Your argument doesn't hold water. All herps need supplementation in captivity. There are many lizards, snakes, and larger frogs that can be offered a large variety of prey items and foods and they all still need supplementation outside of what those food sources offer.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Varied prey insects = 100% unnecessary for optimal health of dart frogs

Quality superfine dusted calcium (and vitamins) at every dusting is necessary

There are Dart Frogs from the 90's still alive and breeding on nothing but properly dusted FF. There are several generations...many generations of large frogs -terribilis breeding on just FF

There is always the urge to wonder if an animal is _ok_ eating nothing but a cheeseburger every day for 12 years. It's a human urge to wonder this...


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Supplementation is not necessitated by a variety-restricted diet. Supplementation is necessitated by a diet of captive raised (in the typical ways; whether those insects could be raised in a way that addresses some of those deficiencies is an interesting but distinct question) insects whether of one species or many. All captive raised feeder insects have basically the same deficiencies (bad Ca/P ratio, lack of vitamins A and D), and so varying the diet of captive raised insects cannot remedy those deficiencies.
> 
> The example given above regarding fruit flies vs meadowplankton is an example of captive vs wild insects, not one vs many species of insects since the insects in the varied condition were of a categorically different nature than that in the unitary condition.


Doesn't this then suggest that you could totally elliminate the need for supplementation in captivity by sufficiently gutloading feeders? That if you were to take something with an ideal Ca/P ratio, or close to it like solider fly larvae, and feed the larvae a sufficiently varied diet, you would no longer need to dust them before feeding? I struggle to believe thats the case. Your point is a good one but I still suspect a combination of both diversity of prey species _and_ quality of the prey species diet influences the need for supplementation. 
There's absolutely no doubt whatsoever that dart frogs are eating a really significantly more varied diet in the wild.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

JasonE said:


> Your argument doesn't hold water. All herps need supplementation in captivity.


I raised dart frogs for years with out supplements. About 10 months out of the year my frogs got 100% meadow plankton and wild collected termites. During the 2 coldest months here in Georgia they got undusted fruit flies.

It was in the 90's when we were still sorting out vitamins and it was easy to over/under do it with what ever combo of reptile vitamins people recommended at the time.. 

I think what constitutes a varied diet is where the issue lays. 4 different kinds of captive raised feeder is not the same as 1000's of different kinds of bugs from the yard with varying gut contents.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JasonE said:


> All herps need supplementation in captivity


Reptiles that eat whole (rodent, bird, lizard) prey do not need and should not be given -- contrary to another bandwagon gaining steam in certain corners of herpetoculture -- additional supplementation. Rodent prey has sufficient-to-ideal levels of Ca, P, and D, and actually has excess Vitamin A.



Louis said:


> Doesn't this then suggest that you could totally elliminate the need for supplementation in captivity by sufficiently gutloading feeders?


In theory yes, but in practice gutloading rarely works. See the last section here for info and citations.



Louis said:


> Your point is a good one but I still suspect a combination of both diversity of prey species _and_ quality of the prey species diet influences the need for supplementation.


Amphibians are accepted to require a calcium to phosphorus ratio of about 1.5/1 in their overall diet. This is why we supplement calcium: because most CB insects have little calcium and a higher level of phosphorus. Take a look at data on feeder insect Ca and P levels (such as here), and try to figure out a varied diet of insects that will sum to that ratio. For most herps (darts, for sure) it can't be done -- there's nothing to 'suspect' -- it is simple math. And that's just calcium; finding a combination of CB feeder insects that will fulfill all the basic vitamin/mineral needs of any insectivorous herp species simply isn't mathematically possible, and it isn't even close.

Here's a study that looked at nine feeder species (eight insects, and earthworms) and found these percentages of samples overall to be deficient in the following: calcium (100%), vitamin D3 (100%), vitamin A (89%), vitamin B12 (75%), thiamin (63%), vitamin E (50%), iodine (44%), manganese (22%), methionine-cystine (22%), and sodium (11%). It doesn't matter how many different species of deficient CB feeder insects a keeper rotates in -- the need for supplementation remains.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Reptiles that eat whole (rodent, bird, lizard) prey do not need and should not be given -- contrary to another bandwagon gaining steam in certain corners of herpetoculture -- additional supplementation. Rodent prey has sufficient-to-ideal levels of Ca, P, and D, and actually has excess Vitamin A.


You are correct. I never supplemented my snakes but I did make sure my rodents were raised on high quality feed and got lots of greens and veggies.

When it comes to darts, we know what's safe and what works. Nothing can take the place of regular feedings of dusted fruit flies. Your frogs should be getting plenty of springtails, isos, and mites from their vivarium to munch on along with flies


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Socratic Monologue said:


> This seems to be more common in Europe.
> 
> There was a discussion a while back (that I can't seem to find now) about whether that practice might entail a pathogen risk. The article on parasites of edible insects that I linked above was a pretty strong counterargument to the idea that captive raised insects are cleaner than wild collected.


I also feed meadow plankton on a regular basis. I noticed that the benefits are not necessarily health/supplement related, but mostly behaviourally as it greatly enhanced the feeding response for my Mantella. They would do ok on fruit flies and aphids but never gained much weight because they quickly lost interest shortly after feeding. The greater range in motions of different bugs in meadow plankton keeps them interested until everything is eaten.



Philsuma said:


> Varied prey insects = 100% unnecessary for optimal health of dart frogs
> 
> Quality superfine dusted calcium (and vitamins) at every dusting is necessary
> 
> ...


Considering your post above concerning correct terminology, I would be careful about saying that a varied diet is 100% unnecessary for *optimal* health of dart frogs. For the record I totally agree that correct dusting at every feeding is absolutely necessary. I would further add that a varied diet is definitely not necessary for *adequate* health of dart frogs, but given that a lot of frogs in captivity are smaller and are more "fragile" compared to their wild counterparts, we cannot rule out that diet plays a role in this (there are also lots of genetic and environmental arguments for this, but we don't have any research to differentiate between them).



Socratic Monologue said:


> Supplementation is not necessitated by a variety-restricted diet. Supplementation is necessitated by a diet of captive raised (in the typical ways; whether those insects could be raised in a way that addresses some of those deficiencies is an interesting but distinct question) insects whether of one species or many. All captive raised feeder insects have basically the same deficiencies (bad Ca/P ratio, lack of vitamins A and D), and so varying the diet of captive raised insects cannot remedy those deficiencies.
> 
> The example given above regarding fruit flies vs meadowplankton is an example of captive vs wild insects, not one vs many species of insects since the insects in the varied condition were of a categorically different nature than that in the unitary condition.





Socratic Monologue said:


> Reptiles that eat whole (rodent, bird, lizard) prey do not need and should not be given -- contrary to another bandwagon gaining steam in certain corners of herpetoculture -- additional supplementation. Rodent prey has sufficient-to-ideal levels of Ca, P, and D, and actually has excess Vitamin A.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Concerning the Ca/P ratio, some feeder bugs such as isopods, mites and amphipods do have a better ratio but lack in other areas. Firebrats however can be raised to have both a good Ca/P ratio and proper vit D levels, but are lacking in vit A (see here). But this definitely does not mean that those should become staples or that supplementation is no longer necessary. Just wanted to point out that some feeders can be raised to have better ratios compared to many commonly used staples.

As a side note, I believe that springtail nutrient compositions are relatively unknown, and they might also have higher Ca/P ratio. I also wonder wether some of the micro roach species could have good gutloading results considering their eating habits and body/gut size ratio.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

Hello all:

THANK YOU for your excellent, scientifically approached explanations! I currently live in the sub-to-urban environment where anti-pest sprays and other chemical loading occurs from a variety of human activity. Thus, meadowplankton is not an option.

I really appreciate all your information! I dust with supplements at every feeding, and "gut load" my fruit flies as well by growing them on Repashy Superfly medium, which I am sure contributes some micrometric to their benefit as a feeder. I also offer bean beetles occasionally to my Tincts and springtails.

I will continue to feed as I have been with FF mains and occasional other feeder! I am curious, if anyone has had success feeding black soldierfly larvae to their dart frogs and what is the smallest species of frog would actually be able to eat them. I have no experience with BSFL.

Thanks!
Drach


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Drachenblut said:


> and "gut load" my fruit flies as well by growing them on Repashy Superfly medium


That's not gut loading. Repashy Superfly cannot gut load anything. I believe Ed is on record here somewhere having said that FFs effectively cannot be gutloaded, and I have no reason to doubt that.

I realize you put it in scare quotes, but animals die because novice keepers think they're gutloading when they're not, and I don't want anyone to read this and see what they want to see. 

Kind of curious about the BSFL question, too. Do darts actually give something like these any notice?


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## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> That's not gut loading. Repashy Superfly cannot gut load anything. I believe Ed is on record here somewhere having said that FFs effectively cannot be gutloaded, and I have no reason to doubt that.
> 
> I realize you put it in scare quotes, but animals die because novice keepers think they're gutloading when they're not, and I don't want anyone to read this and see what they want to see.
> 
> Kind of curious about the BSFL question, too. Do darts actually give something like these any notice?


I haven't tested any larvae with my frogs yet, but my tincs are at least very intrested in anything that moves. One chased and tried to eat a root tip when I went to rearrange a plant, and that was with my hand in the enclosure 3 inches away, so I imagine at least some frogs with a strong feeding response might attempt to eat them, especially if the soldier fly larvae are still very small. I would be cautious and excercise prudence in judgement though with regards to size of the frogs relative to the larvae, as I would be concerned that microphages like darts may have trouble swallowing if the larvae were to big.


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## Amphibicast (Jan 15, 2021)

Two quick comments.
1. All my frogs will take black soldier fly larvae with the exception of my very picky tincs and I’ve found them to be a practical supplemental feeder.
2. As far as gutloading goes - fruit fly maggots are the ones ingesting the media- so I like to finish off older cultures by placing them in the vivarium for frogs to graze on. The remaining maggots are going to pack the most punch as a supplemental feeder assuming they are drawing nutrition from the media. In addition, the mites are also another supplemental food source. This way they are getting the nutritional benefit of every life stage of the culture without adding much else. If gut loading is a thing it’s going to happen at the maggot stage.

Now a long comment.
Fruit flies are and have been the closest thing we have to an ideal staple feeder for dart frogs and similar species. Countless individuals have existed successfully in captivity for decades with little else. However, we must acknowledge that we will never be able to duplicate the variety and volume of prey items consumed by wild frogs. Which begs the question- if fruit flies are the perfect feeder why do we have to supplement the hell out of them for our frogs to thrive? Obviously to make them as nutritionally complete as possible (the same way we add minerals to bread flower and vitamin A to milk.) So, effectively we are recreating wild variety not via the feeder but via the supplements we add to the feeder.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

ease of breeding is the hallmark of the fruit fly....not nutrition. We are NEVER going to come close to the variety of prey insects they eat in the wild. Better to acknowledge that quickly and move on - never trying.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Philsuma said:


> ease of breeding is the hallmark of the fruit fly....not nutrition. We are NEVER going to come close to the variety of prey insects they eat in the wild. Better to acknowledge that quickly and move on - never trying.


And in addition: Even if we could replicate the variety, you can never replicate the variety of food sources that wild microfauna have access to, so you would likely still have the same issue in needing to supplement.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> That's not gut loading. Repashy Superfly cannot gut load anything. I believe Ed is on record here somewhere having said that FFs effectively cannot be gutloaded, and I have no reason to doubt that.
> 
> I realize you put it in scare quotes, but animals die because novice keepers think they're gutloading when they're not, and I don't want anyone to read this and see what they want to see.
> 
> Kind of curious about the BSFL question, too. Do darts actually give something like these any notice?


Thank you for your information! I did use scare quotes specifically and especially to express doubt about its validity and to criticize its use, because I was unsure. I understand novice keepers might interpret it incorrectly, so thanks for the correction. 
This being said however, forgive my confusion but I understood that the Repashy Superfly was designed to provide an optimal, highly nutritious food for FF maggots to eat, and thus develop into healthy fruit flies that in turn would pass that nutrition taken in to the dart frogs in question? If not defined as "gut loading" what would be the proper term for this? Something akin to "raised on high nutrition" or "nutritionally infused"? I know it's not nearly enough, and supplementation is needed, but I am still curious about the terming.

I am thinking of trying the BSFL with my Cobalts and Sips. They will at least try virtually any small feeder offered thus far, and even attempt to eat the dwarf white isopods that are part of their bio active enclosure.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Very little media nutrition stays with the adult fruit fly. There are attempts to gut load FF with liquid vitamins (mostly European breeders) literally minutes before feeding them to frogs - who has time for that? And as stated above, there seems to be a small window for the larvae to have a tiny amount of media in it's gut - using the word tiny here. Bottom line, there is nothing that can take the place of quality superfine dusting supplements. A hobbyist will never succeed without a comprehensive dusting regimen.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Drachenblut said:


> If not defined as "gut loading" what would be the proper term for this? Something akin to "raised on high nutrition" or "nutritionally infused"?


The proper term for culturing fruit flies on Repashy Superfly is 'culturing fruit flies'. Nothing more, unless a person is trying to make money by selling a regular thing with a not exactly untrue but very misleading and hyperbolic description, in which case I hope you make a fortune. Repashy SF is just another FF media -- a good one, perhaps the best one, but it is just food for flies. It is mashed potatoes with Calcium Plus in it (about 3% CA+, by my estimate based on the listed calcium content of each product).

On 'gutloading' (in all of what follows, emphasis is mine):

“gut loading” [is] where the cricket* is fed a high calcium diet so that the calcium contained in the crickets’ gastrointestinal tract provides sufficient calcium for the reptile* (Allen and Oftedal, 1989, Ferguson et al, 1996, Allen, 1997, Anderson 2000, Hunt, et al, 2001, Finke 2003). These diets are usually fed 24 to 72 hr prior to the use of the cricket as food since *these high calcium diets are not suitable for growth and reproduction of the cricket*." (Finke 2004) 

From what I believe is the origin of the idea of gutloading (Bilby and Widdowson, 1971), in a study on the diets of nestling blackbirds and thrushes:

"The gastro-intestinal tracts of the birds contained large amounts of Ca. Their food consists of caterpillars, adult insects and earthworms, none of which have much Ca in their tissues but their gut contents may contain much Ca. It is suggested that it is the gut contents of these invertebrates that provide nestling birds with Ca."

On the relevance of all this to dart husbandry:



Ed said:


> Why do I always feel drawn into the gut loading issues... .
> 
> The official definition has always been* a diet intended to adjust the calcium/phosphorus ratio in the feeder insects* however the hobby took the ball and ran with it in thier own fashion.





Ed said:


> There is a difference between gut loading which in the hobby indicates that there is an attempt to increase the nutritional value of the insect above a certain baseline by including certain nutrients in the diet. *In the scientific literature gut loading specifically refers to attempts to adjust the calcium to phosphorus ratio of an insect through diet*. Unfortunately fruit flies are exceptionally adept at excreting calcium above a certain baseline and cannot be adjusted in this manner. As for other nutrients, the flies have an fairly rapid gut transit time (less than 6 hours) so any nutrients in the digestive tract are excreted fairly quickly which is also a problem. As I noted above vitamin A and D3 are not maintained in the digestive tract in a manner that can benefit the frogs (rhodopsin in the eyes of the flies can be converted back to vitamin A). *These are reason why the idea of gut loading the flies is a problem and should not be counted on to be effective* as people do with roaches and crickets.


Note that gutloading is rarely effective even in crickets and roaches:

"while commercial cricket waters are an effective means of supplying moisture to feeder insects, neither of the “calcium-fortified cricket waters” nor the calcium-fortified high moisture commercial cricket food are suitable for gut loading crickets with sufficient calcium to meet the needs of insectivorous reptiles and amphibians." (Finke 2004)


"...it is surprising that only one of the four commercial gut loading diets tested resulted in crickets containing adequate calcium for insectivorous reptiles and amphibians. Three of the four products had label claims suggesting their use as a suitable calcium source for gut loading crickets however only one of the commercial products tested (T-Rex® Calcium Plus FoodTM for Crickets) was effective in increasing the calcium content of crickets." (Finke 2005)

Specifically on "gutloading" FFs with Repashy Superfly: The SF label lists 0.5% calcium content. From Mader's Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery (p.211):

"feeding mealworms and crickets a 3% [_six times the Ca content of Superfly -- _SM] Ca DM diet with a 2.8 Ca : P ratio for 72 hours resulted in a mean Ca : P ratio of 0.19 for mealworms and 0.26 for crickets (i.e., *negative Ca : P ratios*)"[/QUOTE]


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## Dr. Manhattan (Oct 28, 2016)

On the subject of meadow plankton, do any of you who go out and collect get funny looks from people or laughed at by the wife and daughter whilst trying to swipe at some grasshoppers that are too fast for your butterfly net ? Asking for a friend.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Dr. Manhattan said:


> On the subject of meadow plankton, do any of you who go out and collect get funny looks from people or laughed at by the wife and daughter whilst trying to swipe at some grasshoppers that are too fast for your butterfly net ? Asking for a friend.


I know a purely hypothetical question when I read one.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

Hey there! Semi-revivibg my thread. I wanted to get your opinions on two different new feeder ideas I had, with pros and cons.

#1 - Ants: Tetramorium immigrants to be precise, the common pavement ant. Small enough for Ranitomeya. Would these be a good supplemental feeder for variety in diet (normally feed with springtails, Melos and Hydei flies dusted with Repashy Calcium Plus).
Would eating ants of this kind cause the frogs to begin to exude any kind of toxin (not desired)

#2 - Very Small Black Soldier Fly Larvae - For bigger frogs such as Tincts and Terriblis
- I understand they are an excellent and highly nutritious feeder

#3 - Peanut beetle adults and larvae - I have tried this with success with my D. Tinct. 'Cobalt' pair. Both like the larvae and adults. Seperating the larvae from the peanut hulls and dust is time consuming. Otherwise great feeder. Anyone else doing this?

Cheers
Drachenblut


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Drachenblut said:


> Hey there! Semi-revivibg my thread. I wanted to get your opinions on two different new feeder ideas I had, with pros and cons.
> 
> #1 - Ants: Tetramorium immigrants to be precise, the common pavement ant. Small enough for Ranitomeya. Would these be a good supplemental feeder for variety in diet (normally feed with springtails, Melos and Hydei flies dusted with Repashy Calcium Plus).
> Would eating ants of this kind cause the frogs to begin to exude any kind of toxin (not desired)
> ...


Why would you bother with any of these, when you can easily and cheaply culture fruit flies?


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

Chris S said:


> Why would you bother with any of these, when you can easily and cheaply culture fruit flies?


Primarily because I already have them on hand and merely wish to offer a varied diet to my frogs, if I can. I wouldn't bother if I had to invest any significant money into it l. I should also note I am only dealing with 6 tanks of frogs, so my quantity of feeders does not need to be large


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

My tincs didn't take BSFLs when offered. Fewer than half of my geckos eat them (though some love them); they don't seem universally palatable.

The defensive secretions of adult _Ulomoides Dermestoides _are proven to cause "significant" damage to cells via DNA damage.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> My tincs didn't take BSFLs when offered. Fewer than half of my geckos eat them (though some love them); they don't seem universally palatable.
> 
> The defensive secretions of adult _Ulomoides Dermestoides _are proven to cause "significant" damage to cells via DNA damage.


Wow! Excellent article, thank you for sharing this knowledge! I shall completely avoid feeding these adult beetles to any of my animals! The larvae may be fine though.

I just did some testing today and it seems my D. Tinctorius Cobalts LOVE the BSFL as do my Ameerga bassleri Chrome & Greens! I shall see if my Lygodactylus geckos have a love of them shortly too!


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## tangled (May 13, 2019)

@Drachenblut @Socratic Monologue
Do either of you culture black soldier flies indoors? If so, what are you feeding them to keep the stink down? And what kind of setup (images?) Are you using to keep everything contained and heated. 
I've been told that coffee grinds as a starter substrate and oranges for food are a low-stink indoor food for them.
My outdoor culture takes forever to get started each spring after dying out in the winter.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I don't culture them -- I add them onto my regular orders from Rainbow Mealworms.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

I do not culture them either. I do not have enough frogs of sufficient size to warrant culturing them. I get them from obie's worms for $4 for 100


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## tangled (May 13, 2019)

I use them for my food scraps and then we have a Couch's Kingbird that hangs out on the powerline above the bin and picks off the flies.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

How exactly do you culture them outside? And that is really cool about the bird! I would love to see your culture indoors and also possibly outside.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

Any clue if dermestid beetle species are good feeders (as larvae or as beetles) They are super easy to rear on cheap fish flakes. But as someone with taxidermized inverts and Buckets of dried goods I would never bring them into the house again.


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## tangled (May 13, 2019)

Drachenblut said:


> How exactly do you culture them outside? And that is really cool about the bird! I would love to see your culture indoors and also possibly outside.


I use a Rubbermaid tub, about 40 gallons. I drill a 1 inch hole on the side near the bottom and run a 1 inch pcv pipe riddled with holes along the length of the tub and out the hole for drainage. On the sides, I have pvc gutters (like those for your house) cut and riveted to the side as their ramp to climb up and out when they're ready to pupate. Then you just need to have the lid slightly elevated instead of snapped down. They recommend cardboard or similar for the flies to lay eggs on, but it's not necessary. We have the flies in nature here so I can just start dumping food and they'll come. Alternatively, you can buy bsfl and start the culture that way. To harvest, put your least favorite plate in the mush and a piece of food on it and the larvae will crawl on the plate. You can use a bucket system to sort sizes. A base bucket with no holes and then another bucket with holes in it to set in that bucket the base bucket. Just drill the holes to the size larvae you want. For our frogs, the holes would be about 1/32" or 1 mm maybe. They'll squeeze through a hole slightly smaller than their relaxed diameter. 

I can post a picture of one of my tubs tomorrow, but it's not running this year. Also, I don't have an indoor culture because I'm not sure how I would handle the dead flies as I wouldn't be harvesting all the flies it would produce. I was considering indoor culture when I had chameleons. I no longer keep chameleons. 

There a a ton of videos on YouTube about their culture. It's really easy. You could probably do it in a tub with no drainage or ramps. They can climb the walls too. The ramp just guides them to your collection point. For the effluent, you could probably just tilt the tub over when it gets too wet.


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## tangled (May 13, 2019)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> Any clue if dermestid beetle species are good feeders (as larvae or as beetles) They are super easy to rear on cheap fish flakes. But as someone with taxidermized inverts and Buckets of dried goods I would never bring them into the house again.


The larvae are good for spiders. Not sure of that's useful here though. :-/


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

tangled said:


> The larvae are good for spiders. Not sure of that's useful here though. :-/


Fish like em, I know that. or could it be that they smelled like fish meal... or could it be that fish don't really care all that much... probably the latter. We only feed insects to our fish as occasional offerings.. good quality fish pellets like Hikari are just better.

I wonder if milkweed bugs (reared on sunflower) would be palatable to frogs. I heard from someone who used to rear them, that some pathogen or whatnot has a habit of killing them and so you need to start with ones free of that "whatever it was, I forget" Carolina Bio and similar supply company's look like the only ones that are selling ones raised on sunflower RN. Just something I might try in the future.

[Edit] I think the thing was a flagellate
[EDIT EDIT] yeah now I'm pretty sure... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1550-7408.1962.tb02660.


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## tangled (May 13, 2019)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> Fish like em, I know that. or could it be that they smelled like fish meal... or could it be that fish don't really care all that much... probably the latter. We only feed insects to our fish as occasional offerings.. good quality fish pellets like Hikari are just better.
> 
> I wonder if milkweed bugs (reared on sunflower) would be palatable to frogs. I heard from someone who used to rear them, that some pathogen or whatnot has a habit of killing them and so you need to start with ones free of that "whatever it was, I forget" Carolina Bio and similar supply company's look like the only ones that are selling ones raised on sunflower RN. Just something I might try in the future.
> 
> ...


Getting to the 3rd generation of milkweed bugs was difficult for me. I was trying to raise a diurnal feeder for the chameleons and as the population of milkweed bugs increased, so did humidity and mold. It became a mess for me. They aren't difficult to get the eggs to hatch and tear to adults in low numbers, though. I've order from Carolina as well as some school science supply company that sells on Amazon as well.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

tangled said:


> I use a Rubbermaid tub, about 40 gallons. I drill a 1 inch hole on the side near the bottom and run a 1 inch pcv pipe riddled with holes along the length of the tub and out the hole for drainage. On the sides, I have pvc gutters (like those for your house) cut and riveted to the side as their ramp to climb up and out when they're ready to pupate. Then you just need to have the lid slightly elevated instead of snapped down. They recommend cardboard or similar for the flies to lay eggs on, but it's not necessary. We have the flies in nature here so I can just start dumping food and they'll come. Alternatively, you can buy bsfl and start the culture that way. To harvest, put your least favorite plate in the mush and a piece of food on it and the larvae will crawl on the plate. You can use a bucket system to sort sizes. A base bucket with no holes and then another bucket with holes in it to set in that bucket the base bucket. Just drill the holes to the size larvae you want. For our frogs, the holes would be about 1/32" or 1 mm maybe. They'll squeeze through a hole slightly smaller than their relaxed diameter.
> 
> I can post a picture of one of my tubs tomorrow, but it's not running this year. Also, I don't have an indoor culture because I'm not sure how I would handle the dead flies as I wouldn't be harvesting all the flies it would produce. I was considering indoor culture when I had chameleons. I no longer keep chameleons.
> 
> There a a ton of videos on YouTube about their culture. It's really easy. You could probably do it in a tub with no drainage or ramps. They can climb the walls too. The ramp just guides them to your collection point. For the effluent, you could probably just tilt the tub over when it gets too wet.


Sadly I live in a condo, so this likely wont work for me, but very cool!


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