# need an orchid for a particular spot



## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

okay this may sound like an insane description but just bear with me. I'm looking for an orchid that has leaves that are long and slender and emerge from the roots/center of the plant in sort of a radial fashion. i also want the leaves to have a downward arch midway through the length of the leaf. the thing is, with the exception of the arched leaves, i know masdevallias are a lot like that but this spot gets a lot of light. 

as far as size goes, figure no bigger than 6-8". I am asking because the pictures on these sites are all flowers, and while that's great, let's face it, they aren't blooming 100% of the time, so the leaves are an important factor as well.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Lol I was thinking I was a pro reading the first details at the start. "Oh I got this one in the bag, try a masdevallia" NOT! .........I got nothing....

Where is this plant going to be exactly? Maybe posting a pic might help. Are you mounting it near the top, or is it in the middle of the substrate without any shade?


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

If it's going in a well drained but moist area maybe you could try out one of the smaller long petal Phragmipediums. I've seen these in a few bugs doing well. I'll search around and see if I can find a species name for you. If you're growing it on a bg or mounted maybe a small Maxillaria. They have the downward arch you're looking for.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

This one may not be arching the way you want, but it likes bright light. If you google image it, there are some pics of the foliage.
Andy's Orchids - Orchid Species - Masdevallia - ayabacana


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

GRIMM said:


> Lol I was thinking I was a pro reading the first details at the start. "Oh I got this one in the bag, try a masdevallia" NOT! .........I got nothing....
> 
> Where is this plant going to be exactly? Maybe posting a pic might help. Are you mounting it near the top, or is it in the middle of the substrate without any shade?


I'll upload a picture later, but it's going to be about a foot away from a 26W CFL bulb rated at 6500k.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

oh, and this is being mounted.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

Andy's Orchids - Orchid Species - Pleurothallis - tribuloides

Something sort of like that (which I have), except much larger leaves


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## glass frog (Dec 19, 2011)

Look into some of the scaphosepalem type and they flower a lot if they are happy.


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

What about Ornithophora radicans? It's a mini (~7" leaves) that arch and is very floriferous.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

glass frog said:


> Look into some of the scaphosepalem type and they flower a lot if they are happy.


Scaphosepalum microdactylum at Santa Barbara Orchid Estate

Kinda cool, but doesn't say anything about lighting


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

Spaff said:


> What about Ornithophora radicans? It's a mini (~7" leaves) that arch and is very floriferous.


hmmm...not a bad idea!


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## antoniolugo (Apr 8, 2011)

IOSPE PHOTOS maybe this one, but I think is to small for what you are looking for.


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## glass frog (Dec 19, 2011)

dfrmav said:


> Scaphosepalum microdactylum at Santa Barbara Orchid Estate
> 
> Kinda cool, but doesn't say anything about lighting


they can take it


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Something from the genus Ornithocephalus


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## dope.fatboy (Nov 7, 2011)

To be honest, at one foot a 23 w cfl is basically no light at all. You would have trouble growing anything but the lowest light orchids (and even if it grew you're looking at a heck of a time trying to bloom it). I personally have six 54 w T5s and STILL don't have enough light for some species (that is, by comparison around 25 to 30 times the light output you'll have). My advice is to get the lowest light orchid you can. A quick google search will get you an idea of the true light output of a 23 w cfl and you can compare that light output to recommendations on sites like Andy's Orchids.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

dope.fatboy said:


> To be honest, at one foot a 23 w cfl is basically no light at all. You would have trouble growing anything but the lowest light orchids (and even if it grew you're looking at a heck of a time trying to bloom it). I personally have six 54 w T5s and STILL don't have enough light for some species (that is, by comparison around 25 to 30 times the light output you'll have). My advice is to get the lowest light orchid you can. A quick google search will get you an idea of the true light output of a 23 w cfl and you can compare that light output to recommendations on sites like Andy's Orchids.


FWIW, I just visited Andy's with a light meter. Much to my surprise many of his orchids (even ones that are rated 1500-2500 foot candles on his website) were blooming just fine at 100-200 foot candles (about 1000 to 2000 lux). 
It is possible that your difficulty getting your orchids to bloom may have to do with not getting enough temperature variation. Many orchids need a cooler temperature period to set flowers.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm really glad you brought that meter. With the amount of plants packed into those greenhouses I'm surprised any light gets through at all!


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## dope.fatboy (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm actually an orchid grower who happens to keep frogs, not the other way around. I personally don't have trouble blooming most of my plants (I can never seem to get them all though!).

Seriously, a 23 w cfl is practically nothing. Andy's may be getting some plants to bloom at lower intensities (although not much. and measuring light intensity in a greenhouse is a lot trickier than in a vivarium), but they certainly aren't getting "high light" orchids to bloom with that little light. So, even though there are variations in success I wouldn't recommend anything but plants that like very low light. This is all of course, to say nothing of the long term health of the plant.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I wouldn't recommend trying. I figure that it's better to grow an orchid well and enjoy it's blooms than have it sit there and do nothing (or worse, die).


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

glass frog said:


> Look into some of the scaphosepalem type and they flower a lot if they are happy.


scaphs don't do well in bright light, imo. I tend to keep them in what would be considered general Masdi conditions


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

phender said:


> FWIW, I just visited Andy's with a light meter. Much to my surprise many of his orchids (even ones that are rated 1500-2500 foot candles on his website) were blooming just fine at 100-200 foot candles (about 1000 to 2000 lux).
> It is possible that your difficulty getting your orchids to bloom may have to do with not getting enough temperature variation. Many orchids need a cooler temperature period to set flowers.


one thing to consider here is that in a green house you're not going to have a fixed output 12-14 hours a day. It's going to constantly vary


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

dope.fatboy said:


> I'm actually an orchid grower who happens to keep frogs, not the other way around. I personally don't have trouble blooming most of my plants (I can never seem to get them all though!).
> 
> Seriously, a 23 w cfl is practically nothing. Andy's may be getting some plants to bloom at lower intensities (although not much. and measuring light intensity in a greenhouse is a lot trickier than in a vivarium), but they certainly aren't getting "high light" orchids to bloom with that little light. So, even though there are variations in success I wouldn't recommend anything but plants that like very low light. This is all of course, to say nothing of the long term health of the plant.
> 
> I'm not saying it can't be done, but I wouldn't recommend trying. I figure that it's better to grow an orchid well and enjoy it's blooms than have it sit there and do nothing (or worse, die).


Can a plant actually die from low light? I thought the worst that could happen was wonky, and slow, growth


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> Can a plant actually die from low light? I thought the worst that could happen was wonky, and slow, growth


YES......Depending on how low of light are we talking? They tend to rot very easily also if they are being severly deprived of light (this is why creeping fig is a orchid/plant killer, it blocks the plants and out competes for light)


Kind of late to jump on here, but I agree with dope.fatboy. a foot away from a CFL is not verymuch light. That is pretty much how I grow all of my FULL SHADE plants, including many masdevallias, stelis, restrepia, trisetella, scaphosepalum, etc etc. As long as you have the temperature, I think something like Masdevallia herradurae would work nice, very floriforous, however not that amazing of a bloom. they are easy to find. Really though, most species in the list I just put will work fine as long as you follow their temperature requirements.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Mantellaprince20 said:


> YES......Depending on how low of light are we talking? They tend to rot very easily also if they are being severly deprived of light (this is why creeping fig is a orchid/plant killer, it blocks the plants and out competes for light)



I always chalked the increased rot up to the stagnant and wet conditions that usually accompany a plant being in a dark place, or being overcrowded or out competed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I have plenty of orchids growing a foot away from 26w cfl bulbs. Admittedly there are two or three bulbs per fixture. Lower light pleuros should flourish, while higher light plants will die. Many bulbophyllums are shade lovers as well, so dont count them out.

What size viv is this? Anything bigger than a 18 gallon in my opinion needs more than 1 26 watt bulb


Masdevallia herradurae is a warm growing masdie, and would do better up towards the top of the tank in higher light and warmer temps.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

frogparty said:


> I have plenty of orchids growing a foot away from 26w cfl bulbs. Admittedly there are two or three bulbs per fixture. Lower light pleuros should flourish, while higher light plants will die. Many bulbophyllums are shade lovers as well, so dont count them out.
> 
> What size viv is this? Anything bigger than a 18 gallon in my opinion needs more than 1 26 watt bulb
> 
> ...


it's an 18x18x24 exo terra with 2 26w 6500k bulbs.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

here's my tank as it stands now, which will be modified once i get new orchids. the masdevallia below the elephant ear was placed there yesterday because its leaves started turning yellow and i thought it was getting too much light. i've lost about 6 leaves on it since i got it, and a few more (towards the stem) are turning yellow. curiously, it's only the bottom leaves...

the primary areas i'm looking to cover are the central trunk (where the orchid with tons of roots is temporarily placed), the trunk behind the elephant ear (under the arch), and the top of the arch near the bromeliads. any recommendations?


photo | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

ok thats what Im running in mine. A foot is a bit low down, but almost all the pleuros should work out ok. Im getting good results with B. lasiochilum, B. plumatum, any of the Restrepias, Pleurothallis allenii and Scaphosephalum rapax at those light levels


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

dfrmav said:


> here's my tank as it stands now, which will be modified once i get new orchids. the masdevallia below the elephant ear was placed there yesterday because its leaves started turning yellow and i thought it was getting too much light. i've lost about 6 leaves on it since i got it, and a few more (towards the stem) are turning yellow. curiously, it's only the bottom leaves...
> 
> the primary areas i'm looking to cover are the central trunk (where the orchid with tons of roots is temporarily placed), the trunk behind the elephant ear (under the arch), and the top of the arch near the bromeliads. any recommendations?


The rapid yellowing and drop of leaves indicates root rot to me. 
Which masdie is this again? could be too hot I guess. It would be heat, not light causing the drop


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

frogparty said:


> The rapid yellowing and drop of leaves indicates root rot to me.
> Which masdie is this again? could be too hot I guess. It would be heat, not light causing the drop


Masdevallia scabrilinguis. Got it from Andy's. I figured it might be root rot because when I removed it from the mount, it fell RIGHT off. I removed a lot of the soaking wet sphagnum and was surprised to see very little roots for a plant that size.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

let me know if the photo won't work. spent the last 10 minutes trying to figure this out since the file was too large to upload here.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

doesnt work...use photobucket


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

Pictures by Ben_Zieman - Photobucket


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

frogparty, this may be asking a lot, but given that the pictures on Andy's site kind of suck as far as figuring out size, would you mind posting pictures of the orchids that you own that you recommend for the three spots I'm looking to fill in? Thanks!


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I can take a few. My Ornithocephalus is in spike now too. Otherwise Id reccomend Restrepias for that spot, none of mine are blooming now.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

frogparty said:


> I can take a few. My Ornithocephalus is in spike now too. Otherwise Id reccomend Restrepias for that spot, none of mine are blooming now.


which spot? I want to put something under the red brom on that trunk, something on the trunk behind the elephant ear, and possibly something up top where it's brighter.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

Also I may move the big masdie back under the red brom. I have a bare spot on the other side of the wood that might take a plant but it's at the bottom near the substrate. Any ideas? Looking at getting 3 or 4 Orchids basically and three will be far from this light and one will be close to it.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

circle the places on that pic where you want to put stuff exactly and Ill make some reccomendations.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

frogparty said:


> circle the places on that pic where you want to put stuff exactly and Ill make some reccomendations.


http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z425/Ben_Zieman/photo-1.jpg

I know it looks really ghetto. The bottom rectangle is not where the lowest one is going - it's going on the opposite side of the wood but at the same level as that. Gets the same amount of light as that spot, though. The masdie that is currently near the elephant ear WAS under the red bromeliad (where the current orchid with tons of roots is currently tied), and I may move it back since light was likely not the culprit for dead leaves.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

frogparty said:


> The rapid yellowing and drop of leaves indicates root rot to me.
> Which masdie is this again? could be too hot I guess. It would be heat, not light causing the drop


I would say heat is your issue with M scabrilingis. It is a cool to cold grower, masde'scan be extremely sensitive to temperature. I killed dracula lotax in 2 days a1 80degrees! Heat stress is typically indicated by rapids leave loss and yellowing


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

Mantellaprince20 said:


> I would say heat is your issue with M scabrilingis. It is a cool to cold grower, masde'scan be extremely sensitive to temperature. I killed dracula lotax in 2 days a1 80degrees! Heat stress is typically indicated by rapids leave loss and yellowing


it's not rapid leaf loss though. i've lost my 6 or so leaves since i've had the plant, which arrived in like october. plus andy's says they're heat tolerant.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

Foot-Candles = Lumens ÷ (4 × Pi × d²)

I found this online. My bulbs have 4000 lumens so 1 foot away (the "d" in the equation) gets like 318 foot candles. I don't know how it works with two of the same bulb but even if it doubles the foot candles, I'm still good to go. Tallest point in my tank gets 1273 footcandles, which should be okay for most of what I want. 

Moral of the story: the guys saying my bulbs put out zero light were correct. Not that I didn't believe you, but it helps to have hard numbers so you know where to place plants.

[edit] This also means that for some areas, I need orchids that will bloom with approx. 300 footcandles of light...


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## penfold (Nov 20, 2010)

That formula is for a bulb with no reflector. 4*pi*r² is the surface area of a sphere, which would be the entire area surrounding a bare bulb. A reflector will concentrate the light in a smaller area, increasing the number of foot-candles.

But I don't think your lumen rating is correct (unless you're adding two bulbs together). 26w CFL's are typically rated at 1700-1800 lumens.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

The site that I ordered them from rates them at 4000. I'll post a link later. In any event, what do you think the range of foot candles is in my tank from top to bottom?


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

I just took a measurement with a light meter 12" under a 26W CFL in a dome reflector with a piece of clean glass in between and got a reading of ~300 foot candles, so your calculations were pretty good. Two bulbs won't double the output because they are not focusing their light in the same place, but there certainly will be some overlap. 

It sounds like you already know but light intensity follows the inverse square law. If you are twice the distance from the light source, the light is only one quarter as bright, 3 times the distance means one 9th as much light.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

Oh wow thanks for testing that. That is great news! And yes I figured after my calculations that the light varied by distance in such a manner. 

The main question now becomes, are there any orchids that will do well with only 300 foot candles of light?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

jewel orchids?


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

dfrmav said:


> Oh wow thanks for testing that. That is great news! And yes I figured after my calculations that the light varied by distance in such a manner.
> 
> The main question now becomes, are there any orchids that will do well with only 300 foot candles of light?


most of your lower light orchids will work well in these conditions, provided they aren't getting shaded from above. any warmth tolerant masdevallia will be good (i'm still pushing M. herradurae  ), most of your lower light pleuro's, any warmth tolerant dracula's (radiella is doing good for me), and most of what has already been listed. Keep in mind with orchids, typically the less rigid their leaves are the less light they need. If you get some of those really thick NON bendable leaves like ornithocephalus, sophronitis, cattleya, they need A LOT of light. Good luck and keep us posted on your choices 

ed parker


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

Mantellaprince20 said:


> most of your lower light orchids will work well in these conditions, provided they aren't getting shaded from above. any warmth tolerant masdevallia will be good (i'm still pushing M. herradurae  ), most of your lower light pleuro's, any warmth tolerant dracula's (radiella is doing good for me), and most of what has already been listed. Keep in mind with orchids, typically the less rigid their leaves are the less light they need. If you get some of those really thick NON bendable leaves like ornithocephalus, sophronitis, cattleya, they need A LOT of light. Good luck and keep us posted on your choices
> 
> ed parker


Haha thanks Ed. Good to know about the leaves and other options. I'm going to check out andys site later for some of your recommendations. I am getting herradurae for sure lol.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

zBrinks said:


> jewel orchids?


already have two in the bottom of the tank, but thanks . might actually place a third in this one spot...


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