# Raising feeders in vivariums



## Dartfish (Dec 16, 2016)

Jey im going to be constructing a 50 gallon viv soon and i remembered seeing someone with a viv thqt had feeders breeding in the tank like crickets, mealworms, dubias. Has anyone here ever done something like this and jow did they go about accomplishing it


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

I've never seen or heard of anyone doing that. I just don't see how it's possible unless you compartmentalize them in the tank especially in something like a 50g. I think your production would suck and the extra load on your system would hurt the primary animal your trying to feed them to.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

I think this is coming from the "bioactive" crowd. It would be nice to have a self feeding vivarium but I would never try to push it that far with dart frogs.

I saw a post on FB the other night about a guy who had fruit flies breeding in his "boiactive" vivarium  I asked how he planned on supplementing his dart frogs and the reply was literally a bunch of nonsense. 

Anyway, I'd keep a healthy distance from the bioactive folks. Follow a system that works and has been proven and then *maybe* experiment from there. The bioactive herpers are just replicating what we've been doing in this hobby all along but they're pushing certain boundaries that can be a bit infuriating to see them keep animals in them.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

What kind of frogs are you building for ? For dart frogs in general I would say the foods you listed would not be their favorites!

I thought these threads, now a decade or so old might be interesting.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/320162-raising-feeders-vivariums.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/3995-new-set-up.html


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## Dartfish (Dec 16, 2016)

Oh its not for dart frogs! Sorry i shouldve specified im doing the 55 gallon for lizards and may be doing a 30 gallon for some species of tree frog which is why i was curious about it, i remember seeing someone had a tank with anoles and curly tailed lizards etc that had dubias a mealworms breeding in the tank tank and as they would reproduce the lizards would eat some but not enough to where young were still surviving to adulthood in the tank


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## Dartfish (Dec 16, 2016)

Thankyou for the responses i just wanted tp get others opinions so i dont set up the viv and mess it up or worse harm the animals


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dartfish said:


> Thankyou for the responses i just wanted tp get others opinions so i dont set up the viv and mess it up or worse harm the animals


You would have problems with the mealworms as you would have to include a grain based food for them to breed and reproduce. You'd be at severe risk of setting up a massive grain mite culture which may not harm the lizards directly but would be a significant risk of allergic reactions for you and anyone else in the house. 

Keep in mind that crickets and dubia roaches will both predate on other organisms for protein sources... as an additional factor, a number of roaches in the Blattidae store excess protein in the form of uric acid in their fat bodies. This can be an issue for lizards that have issues with sufficient water. 

In addition, this does not solve the issues with nutritional deficiencies for required nutrients like calcium, vitamin A, etc. If the lizards did not consume sufficient dusted insects you would have problems with disease. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

This is not proven but just my random thoughts if you are feeling experimental. I have accidental experience in that 


I think an approach that would be close is to try and have a manageable clean up crew that is unlikely to crash. I have a crested gecko tank and the spring tails and isopods in that tank are always in great shape because there are no frogs eating them. Now its a big enough amount of substrate that I am pretty sure that if all I had was a pair of frogs in there they would always have access to as much food as they wanted. 

So in order to pull this off I think what you need is to tackle the 2 major drawbacks. 

First is supplements will the frogs get enough vitamins and other nutrients like calcium? I don't know for sure but there are people who try to make calcium supplemented substrates, you might also be able to supplement with calcium I definitely notice when I put things like cuttlebones in tanks the invertebrates will swarm it, even just a pile of excess supplements that fell out of a fruit fly feeding. That said there are anecdotes of frogs surviving for as long as a year in abandoned vivariums and we have to assume they are surviving on the clean up crew or random bugs wandering in. 

The other issue is most people want to pack the most frogs in a tank they can and make the most efficient use of the space. In a system like this you would probably be trying to do the opposite which is having a lot of substrate to support a large invertebrate population which would consume space, and putting a very few frogs in a much bigger space. I would stick 4+ inches of ABG in if I was trying this and have an 18x24 minimum footprint for a pair of frogs. 

Outside of that you just need to keep the invertebrates sufficiently fed. Adding leaf litter does plenty enough for my crested gecko tank and they are also eating the gecko food. And leaves that break down faster are better in this regard then the common leaves we try to put in that slowly breakdown. I can put maple or ginko leaves in a tank and make a spring tail boom happen in a couple weeks. You may also put in bugburger or other products. '

You can get fruit flies breeding in tanks but you have 2 huge drawbacks. 1 you get flying flies, and 2 smell.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

port_plz said:


> Anyway, I'd keep a healthy distance from the bioactive folks. Follow a system that works and has been proven and then *maybe* experiment from there. The bioactive herpers are just replicating what we've been doing in this hobby all along but they're pushing certain boundaries that can be a bit infuriating to see them keep animals in them.


Many of those in the "bioactive" community have no clue as to what they are doing but are following recommendations by rote that are not based on reality. I've seen everything from claims that the invertebrate fauna will remove any need to clean the enclosure and the plants will deal with the nitrogen cycle to its a set up and forget it scenario. Sadly I've even seen some vendors pandering to that segment of the reptile and amphibian hobby where the sales pitch includes those kinds of claims. (But then we also see it here, have mushrooms? add springtails?....). 

Now for the rest of the rant... 

Pretty much anything is "bioactive".... there are microbes on everything so I can make the claim that the kitchen counter is bioactive as organisms are doing their thing there... or the inside of your shoe... to anything that involves a substrate whether or not you've seeded it has plants in it. If someone starts going on about "bioactive", you need to double check any information provided as there is sure to be some BS in it.... 

Its the latest trendy buzzword in the vein of pyramid power or crystal healing... 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pubfiction said:


> First is supplements will the frogs get enough vitamins and other nutrients like calcium? I don't know for sure but there are people who try to make calcium supplemented substrates,


Calcium is easy, the problem are the other required nutrients like vitamin A, carotenoid variety, even micronutrients like zinc. This is part of the problem with such a low diversity in the microfauna....as well as the problems with the vast majority of substrates used in the hobby, they do not and cannot mimic the real environment. This also ignores the nutritional demands provided by the conditions based on the environment supplied by the hobbyist. One of the reason we see deficiencies of vitamin A in frogs (as one example) is because we force them to be in breeding condition pretty much year round. This applies to many of the animals kept in terraria... they do not get the down time of a dry season or cool season where they can acquire nutrients and store them.... 

Don't forget under sub-optimal conditions many herps including frogs can reduce their caloric needs to a very very low level which can play a large part in their ability to survive long periods of neglect. Consider some of the records of amphibians surviving while starving like Sirens ssp lasting more than 5 years or axolotls taking close to two years to finish starving (see for example Prolonged Inanition in Siren lacertina on JSTOR). This is part of the reason why I keep saying these kinds of animals are tougher than many give them credit... 



Pubfiction said:


> I would stick 4+ inches of ABG in if I was trying this and have an 18x24 minimum footprint for a pair of frogs.


More realistic ecological calculations would probably require several square meters before you reached a sufficient supply of invertebrates. This is because the level of overfeeding in the hobby causes people to under estimate the actual amount of space required. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Dartfish (Dec 16, 2016)

Thats really interesting about the sirens, ive heard amphiumas can do the same thing though the one i had took some time to actually attempt to eat


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## Dartfish (Dec 16, 2016)

One other question, if i decide to go with mountain horned dragons for the 55 gallon will any of the earthworms i feed him cause problems in the viv? Ive heard they break things down too fast in a vivarium.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Dartfish said:


> One other question, if i decide to go with mountain horned dragons for the 55 gallon will any of the earthworms i feed him cause problems in the viv? Ive heard they break things down too fast in a vivarium.


Well it depends on your substrate, but probably not unless your creating a compost in there. It also depends on the worms. Most won't survive you can grab readily. I have a couple bins of Alabama jumpers I feed and fish with. They do really well in a warm climate. I had European nightcrawlers, but they turned to mush in a heat wave. Some use African nightcrawlers. Red wigglers are great composting, but produce a yellow slim defense. The Canadian nightcrawlers (what most people feed) won't survive unless in the fridge.

If I were to keep a mountain lizard. I would start a separate breeding colony of dubias and call it a day. You can keep a large amount of crickets as you want and grab some Canadian nightcrawlers as needed. Dubias are relatively clean and quiet. They also have a long digestive tract that's great for gut loading.


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## Dartfish (Dec 16, 2016)

I tried dubias a failed miserably with them lol. I had them for monthes and no breeding and then learned i need heat so a used a heating pad, no luck so i placed a heating pad on the side of the tank to keep it warmer and when i came most were dead or on their way out the door i managed to save maybe six older nymphs and a male and i just threw them in one of my empty terrariums and i occasionally toss a piece of fruit in there for them but ive given up on them. I do have a red wiggler bin in my backyard


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

I'd put a little thought into this subject but never tried any variation of it. My thought was to have an "overflow"channel made of some sturdy tube material (PVC maybe?) that created a functional bridge between the invertebrate grow out tank and the animal's enclosure. Not technically a setup with the feeders "in" the cage but with the same desired effect. 
For dubia, I would use a standard opaque plastic tote with a few egg crates (no egg residue!) in the bottom. Cut a hole in the tub near the bottom and another in the side of the cage to install your bridge. You probably want some kind of reducer so that none of the adults can access the main enclosure. Hardware cloth comes to mind. I never heated my dubia roaches (temps low to mid 70s) and I essentially ignored them except to drop a few veggie scraps twice a week. They were unstoppable breeders. One problem that occurs to me is that if your main animal enclosure is humid, it could create issues with mold for your dubia colony. I guess it depends somewhat on your feeder husbandry as well.
Fruit flies would be trickier but I think it could be done if you designed a fitting for the top of a standard fly cup that allowed flies to climb out of the culture and through the "bridge". Make cultures as usual and switch cups as the new culture has it's first boom. You'd still theoretically have to employ a fruit feeding station to draw flies into the enclosure. 
The above statements are all entirely theory and things I've made note of so maybe I can do a real test in the future. I'm certain that there are glaring problems there, but it's fun to think about ways to change up the feeding system. The biggest factor might be regulation. You'd have no accurate gauge for an animal's food consumption. I know too many feeders can stress frogs and that may be true of other critters as well... 


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dartfish said:


> One other question, if i decide to go with mountain horned dragons for the 55 gallon will any of the earthworms i feed him cause problems in the viv? Ive heard they break things down too fast in a vivarium.


Don't seed the tank with them and they aren't a problem. Personally I'd toss an enclosure out if it ended up with a red worm colony in it as they do trash it fairly efficiently. 

As a side note, I generally don't suggest using Eisenia (redworms) for most vertebrates see Kobayashi, Hideshi, et al. "Toxicity of coelomic fluid of the earthworm Eisenia foetida to vertebrates but not invertebrates: probable role of sphingomyelin." Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part C: Toxicology & Pharmacology 128.3 (2001): 401-411. 

some comments 

Ed


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## AAronCap (Jan 14, 2018)

Ed said:


> Many of those in the "bioactive" community have no clue as to what they are doing but are following recommendations by rote that are not based on reality. I've seen everything from claims that the invertebrate fauna will remove any need to clean the enclosure and the plants will deal with the nitrogen cycle to its a set up and forget it scenario. Sadly I've even seen some vendors pandering to that segment of the reptile and amphibian hobby where the sales pitch includes those kinds of claims. (But then we also see it here, have mushrooms? add springtails?....).
> 
> Now for the rest of the rant...
> 
> ...


Someone asked me about Dubia Roaches on another forum and I was searching around to see the opinions of others and this was also for some tree frogs they were going to have the roaches in with. I think some insects work better then others such as springtails, isopods, banded and common crickets, various earthworms, snails, in some cases millipedes and earwigs. 

I do not believe roaches would be ideal to house in a setup because they can have a massive population boom and would be very difficult to stop if a large enclosure is constructed with many choices for feeders the selected animals may not get to eat as many roaches compared to the other insects which could become a problem. Their young can also scale glass and some fly. They could potentially escape and if you have a large population boom you could have a lot of them escape. Just thoughts on why roaches would be a little more concerning. 

As for the comment I highlighted above I have no experience with dart frogs but I love your setups. I keep native species and I do not look at it as bioactive I look at it more as ecosystem with the insects I selected above safe to keep in an enclosure. I agree with you there is a growing problem of people not wanting to actually have animals they just want to do as little as possible and say it's bioactive. Even though I promote insects to breed in my setup I still every feed provide the same amount of crickets even if they are in the setup. Most get eaten or die by the end of one week. It's kind of sad that people won't even provide feeders. I have watched my toads hunt all the Isopods in a month. Hundreds of Isopods and 3 toads. So I can understand your frustration about people who are saying bioactive setup just to get out of hard work and caring for their pets. 

I would just like to encourage you not to lump all keepers together that want to promote using clean up crews and calling them bioactive. My focus is on native species so my enclosures have native isopods and earthworms and for other keepers who read my posts and such I say bioactive to bring attention to include the clean up crew because I see a lot of people just starting out and they may not know they can add these and their importance. A true ecosystem not speaking on dart frogs but for a native setup done right with of course adding substitutions for captive crickets and other feeders along with the appropriate plants requires a long time of planning and research. It also involves being willing to spend what's needed and to understand what is inside the enclosure and how they will work together and even how to make adjustments when something doesn't work. Even if there are only a handful of people who do it the way it's intended I would just like to encourage you to give credit to the people who are doing it right so it doesn't cause conflict with non dart frog keepers. As I said I don't speak for everyone else I'm in a small minority in the native species side but I have spent years researching and improving as I go on. I have consulted many well educated keepers and some biologists for advice and I know there are some others who do it right. 

I hope the thoughts on the roaches and about the differences with keepers who are doing it right and those who are trying to do very little was distinguished and an informative post. 

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## tropfrog (Sep 6, 2018)

I am confused that People think bioactive equals a tank that you dont add food to. Or that the bioactive is BS. I am not sure what the definition of a bioactive tank is over where you are. But here in Europe basically any pdf tank with substrate that is fed with springtails is by definition a bioactive tank.

Bioactive is just a way to replicate nature. It is not a non-maintenance approach. It is a low maintenance approach. The plants do use a lot of the wastes in the bioactive tank. But you really need to drainage a bioactive tank as well and The drainage water is The primary nutrition export.

Br
Magnus


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

tropfrog said:


> I am confused that People think bioactive equals a tank that you dont add food to. Or that the bioactive is BS. I am not sure what the definition of a bioactive tank is over where you are. But here in Europe basically any pdf tank with substrate that is fed with springtails is by definition a bioactive tank.
> 
> Bioactive is just a way to replicate nature. It is not a non-maintenance approach. It is a low maintenance approach. The plants do use a lot of the wastes in the bioactive tank. But you really need to drainage a bioactive tank as well and The drainage water is The primary nutrition export.
> 
> ...


Magnus,
I think you are spot on with what you say. The problem, I think, is how the term bioactive is used by a lot of people. As long as people use the term iin the same sense that you are, I think it's fine. It's when people make miraculous claims about specific soil fungi and no-maintenance setups that I start to get really skeptical. These claims usually surround products that are exorbitantly-priced all too often, too. I think that Ed is right in many cases that people are at least mistaken if not out-right fraudulent in how they characterize the benefits of "bioactive" setups. If a claim sound too good to be true, it probably is 

Mark


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## AAronCap (Jan 14, 2018)

tropfrog said:


> I am confused that People think bioactive equals a tank that you dont add food to. Or that the bioactive is BS. I am not sure what the definition of a bioactive tank is over where you are. But here in Europe basically any pdf tank with substrate that is fed with springtails is by definition a bioactive tank.
> 
> Bioactive is just a way to replicate nature. It is not a non-maintenance approach. It is a low maintenance approach. The plants do use a lot of the wastes in the bioactive tank. But you really need to drainage a bioactive tank as well and The drainage water is The primary nutrition export.
> 
> ...


There are people who believe bioactive setup means I add some feeders and some of this and that and it's all done. Then they just think they can sit back and watch without any work involved. I hope what I was saying was misunderstood. A bioactive setup contains a clean up crew. There are some cases where few feeder insects can be introduced and can add another dimension to the enclosure with a predator and prey relationship. This would be good for larger setups for larger species. I agree that there are people who are trying to make enclosures now saying bioactive and meaning they won't do maintenance or use feeders. But I also wanted to make the point that there are people who do it right with having a bioactive setup but still do maintenance and release feeders. I hope if I was not clear that this helps. 

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