# How does this work?



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

This is an old pic from the Audubon Zoo back when I lived in NOLA. Snakie no eatie?


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## galexie (Jun 29, 2006)

Its hard to tell, but is that an Auratus to the left of the snake?


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## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Yep that is an auratus. if I remember right there were about 5 visible auratus. I dont remember what kind of snake the snake is. Maybe some of the other herpers out there can ID it? I cant remember if this was some kinda biotope thing they had goin on. Im sure this whole exhibit is no longer set up.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

*Re: mixing snakes with darts...*

not sure what snake it is, but i just recently went to the national aquarium and they had about 2 or 3 tanks set up with darts in the bottom, and things like lizards or vipers hanging out on the top part. they also had tanks with tincs, azureus, auratus, and leucs together, and i didn't see any sick frogs or aggression. i don't think i would do that, but it just goes to show sometimes it can work, i just don't know how.


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## leucofrog (Dec 16, 2006)

my snake wouldve gobbled him right up :shock:


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

I've asked the same question I was told that although it seems like it works it really doesn't. They simply rotate out the sick and stressed frogs with new ones from the back. Its sad but I suppose with limited space thats their only option to get all the different frogs on display at once.


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## tedrock (Jul 11, 2007)

wouldn't the snake naturally know that something bright normally is poisonous? isn't that why the frogs are bright in the first place so predators know "don't eat this"? i know they aren't poisonous in captivity but does the snake?


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## Red Eye (Jan 8, 2007)

I think the snake wouldn't even recognize the frog as a food item. It's too small, it would be like a single french fry for a human for a meal. Could be wrong, but thats my opinon.

Red Eye


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The snake also looks to be one of the Lachesis who do not eat frogs..... 

I have kept frogs long term with snakes, for example RETFs with Emerald Tree Boas and the two do not pay any attention to one another... 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There has been work done on size of prey items versus the size of the snake and while it does work to some extent there are notable exceptions which make it more of a guideline than a rule. 

If the institution is rotating out frogs or replacing them from off exhibit consistantly then there is some husbandry aspect that probably should be considered and resolved. Multispecies exhibits can and do work and can be stable for a very long time (years to decade) as long as attention is paid to details and the animals are chosen to fit the available niches in the exhibit as opposed to simply choosing animals and seeing what does work (although when moving onto uncharted territory, there is always some experimentation in this respect). 

Ed


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but someone here asked about mixing snakes with darts, so I did a search and found this thread. I can shed some light on this particular case, as I am good friends with the keepers at the Audubon zoo aka Audubon Nature Institute. They definitely do not simply rotate out the stressed / sick frogs in that particular habitat. If I remember correctly they have a few specimens of a single kind of horn viper with a colony of D. auratus Costa Rican morph. Now my mother works at the zoo and as a result I have spent many many years there and most of that time was in the reptile and amphibian building. Those exact same frogs have been there since I was 10 and are still there now I am 27. I have watched those frogs for countless hours and entire days sometimes and they actually seem to use the snake for protection. They would all hop into the main coil of the snake when they felt alarmed, and it became obvious that the snake could care less of their presence. They hopped right on his head countless times and the snake never even twitched. Now the size of the enclosure is huge by our standards about 10 ft long by 7 ft wide and 8 ft tall. Oak leaf litter floor with a few logs and some planted ficus trees but only a few. So most of the tank is wide open floor space. The frogs spend most of their time near the snake and when not by the snake they just hop around hunting in the leaf litter. 

Also Audubon zoo only mixes froglets in the same enclosure, and they have a few people on hand that are very knowledgeable of dart husbandry needs. There is no questioning that facility's standards, there is a reason they are considered one of the best nature institutions in the world.


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## sandiegoleu (Jun 2, 2009)

well thats good to know. would be cool if you had pictures.

i was thinking on my next build, so get a large tank and setup some luec with a pair of crested geckos or even a green tree python.

just want to hear more success stories though


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## longliveledzeppelin (Jul 4, 2009)

the portland zoo has darts with etb and reptile mag says its ok but only etbs or atbs not gtp and u need a tall tank


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would have strong hestitations in housing juvenile Emeralds with anurans.. while they have not been shown to predate on anurans, neonates do eat lizards and small lizard eating snakes will often eat frogs. 

Ed


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

longliveledzeppelin said:


> the portland zoo has darts with etb and reptile mag says its ok but only etbs or atbs not gtp and u need a tall tank


I know I'm an old foggy. I'm all of 45 and never text message Seriously, do you know how hard it is to figure out what these short forms mean. Is it really that hard to spell the whole word? This doesn't even look like a sentence anymore.

etb, etbs, atbs, gtp HUH!


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## sandiegoleu (Jun 2, 2009)

i thought if i did do something with an emerald or green tree, i would do a tall tank since they need it and require higher heat. in the 80's i believe.
so i thought metal halides for plants, then i thought too much heat, stress snake out with light and no gradient for it to move(heat rises). so i decide to stick with crested geckos. almost the same requirements as darts. only food is different and they are nocturnal.

just havent seen to mouch info out there for me to ask. everyone just has opinions


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfreak said:


> I know I'm an old foggy. I'm all of 45 and never text message Seriously, do you know how hard it is to figure out what these short forms mean. Is it really that hard to spell the whole word? This doesn't even look like a sentence anymore.
> 
> etb, etbs, atbs, gtp HUH!


While I'm also pretty old (43), I got the idea 

ETB = Emerald Tree Boa
ETBS = Emerald Tree Boas 
ATB = Amazon Tree Boa...

While a 20 gallon or 33 gallon long aquarium would be too low for emeralds or amazons it really depends on what you mean by a tall tank.. 
In any case, even in a tall tank the snakes are going to be mobile and hunt at night. They are not totally stay in one place animals. 

Ed


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

Ed said:


> While I'm also pretty old (43), I got the idea
> 
> ETB = Emerald Tree Boa
> ETBS = Emerald Tree Boas
> ...


Don't forget gtp = green tree python 

This post SERIOUSLY makes me miss my etb. She was ball python tame and I could take her out whenever and never had her strike...A power outage while on vacation (winter vacation), cost her her life. I hope to one day find another nice one! On a side note I also had an extremely tame atb who would only strike at you if you reached in the tank. Once out he wasn't even head shy! Some luck I must have...


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## sandiegoleu (Jun 2, 2009)

ya for me, a tall would be 4 foot. i wanted to get a 3'*3'*4', but was too expensive, guy wanted almost 600 to make, so im holding and seeing if ill just do it myself.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

boogsawaste said:


> Don't forget gtp = green tree python
> 
> This post SERIOUSLY makes me miss my etb. She was ball python tame and I could take her out whenever and never had her strike...A power outage while on vacation (winter vacation), cost her her life. I hope to one day find another nice one! On a side note I also had an extremely tame atb who would only strike at you if you reached in the tank. Once out he wasn't even head shy! Some luck I must have...


I also had an ATB and it had the same behavior, only struck on initial hand in the tank, once out very friendly. The thing about tree snakes most people hope to be able to hold them and expect them to be tame, which in itself is rare, but what surprised me the most when I got mine was how freaking rock hard it's body is. Talk about solid muscle!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

My amazons will bite you if you are working them in the cage, and are sort of okay once they are out of the cage but if you move too quickly they will still tag you.. a friend of mine was careless and got tagged between the eyes by one of them.. 

Ed


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

Ed said:


> My amazons will bite you if you are working them in the cage, and are sort of okay once they are out of the cage but if you move too quickly they will still tag you.. a friend of mine was careless and got tagged between the eyes by one of them..
> 
> Ed


Ouch, hit in the face by one would really suck! My amazon never struck at me out of the cage but gave me that "look" they give when I moved really fast. I never 100% trusted that snake though. On the other hand my emerald couldn't care less about what you did.

I agree about sticking to older snakes when attempting this. I've seen it done with emeralds in the past (forget where), and it looked pretty nice. If I remember correctly the tanks were fairly large also.


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