# one froggy died



## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

hey,  one of my green and black frogs died.. Looking at him ..i wish i caught it sooner? He was eating good ... But when i took him out he was fatter then i remember him. Is white fuzzy mold ok? Im scared my other are gonna perish .. i have no idea what to do ?????


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

he was eating alot! always welcoming the next prey to come along... wish i knew what i did wrong? temp is at 83 humidity at 85-87% light it timed for 12 hours.... Only thing i introduced differently was herptavite bout 3 days ago??


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

83 degrees is too hot...shoot for 75 degrees. Mold is never good.


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

my other 2 frogs look just as fat .. but they have been eating good.. what should i do ?


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## johnnymo (Jul 20, 2007)

are they really that sensitive to temps? i find it hard to believe it never reaches 83 degrees in their costa rican habitiat. I dont think thats what killed your dart but you definitly do want to bring that temp down to something comfortable like 74-78.


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

checked it .. and the temp is like 78... But its the hottest part of day..I know put fan in front on the viv. Concerned about other frogs


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## Raymond (Aug 26, 2006)

ppayes said:


> 83 degrees is too hot...shoot for 75 degrees. Mold is never good.


Almost every tank I've created, seen, heard about, etc. had a 'molding' period soon after being completely setup. Some vivs can have mold linger, or pop up later. I've never had it, or heard about it, being a problem. 

Also, 83 degrees is a little bit on the warm side, but I don't think that is what killed the frog. 

78 degrees is just fine, I wouldn't bother even trying to cool the tank down if that is the maximum temperature during the day. 

Where did you get the frogs, and how old are they? 

You say when you took the frog out, it was fatter then normal? Is this after it was dead? There could have been a bloating problem, which is usually a symptom of another disease. If that is the case, then I would start to worry. Can you post pictures of the dead animal?

Also, if possible, you might want to try to get a specialist to run a necropsy on the frog.


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

im attempting to get a pic of the other ones. They were out of the water on 6-11 and purchased through josh frogs.what causes bloat? I used distilled water, does stress cause them to bloat?


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## Android1313 (Dec 15, 2006)

> But when i took him out he was fatter then i remember him.


If he was fat and eating, I guess it could be stress, or disease?
How long have you had it? what size/kind of enclosure?
Whats the expiration date on the herpavite?

Sorry to hear about your loss! 
It sucks to lose a frog.


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

expiration was something 2009. lil smudged... i had my frogs in a 12x12x18 enclosures. Each frog had thier territory i had them bout 2 1/2 to 3 weeks .. other are pretty fat too.. one looks to hiccup. I'm getting them out of the tank and quarantining them .


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## monkey (Sep 8, 2006)

*water*

The distilled water would explain the bloat.


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

ok .both frogs are out .. into thier starter house ... what should i do with the bigger viv? I allready took out thier huts, film canisters, anything i can rinse off. Biggest thing is the grape wood water fall.. Should i take that all apart? It would mean total rip apart....still waiting for camera batteries to charge up for some pics


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

distilled water isnt the best for them ? thought i read some where thats the best .. i added frog vivarium treatment to the water as well


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

There's something about distilled water being "too pure" for amphibians, I'm a little fuzzy on those details, but if there were any impurities in the water at all (substrate, leaves, even gravel), then I think it's unlikely that the water is the culprit. Sometimes frogs just die. The reasons arent always clear.


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

the others are in thier original shoebox starter box. Well see how they are in the am  cross fingers..


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

> The distilled water would explain the bloat.





> There's something about distilled water being "too pure" for amphibians, I'm a little fuzzy on those details, but if there were any impurities in the water at all (substrate, leaves, even gravel), then I think it's unlikely that the water is the culprit. Sometimes frogs just die. The reasons arent always clear.


The use of distilled water is perfectly fine for healthy frogs. Consider that you are supplementing them with vitamins/minerals anyway.

Stressed frogs, the stress coming from either temperature extremes, cagemate interactions, reaction to shipping, etc, can see a rapid decline in their immune system that makes them vulnerable to infection.

A 12 x 12 x 18 is too small for 3 auratus, particularly if one factors in potential stress due to shipping/transport, temperature, etc.

Frogs die for a reason though that reason isn't always well understood. However a perusal of the Dendroboard will yield multiple examples of where multiple frogs were put together in a small enclosure only to have one or more of the frogs decline in health. While there is some debate about how small is too small (or put another way, what is the limit of frog density), the reality is that these frogs are highly territorial and have interactions that we only poorly appreciate at times.

Isolating the frogs to their quarantine setups is a good step. I suspect that your Exo Terra is not the problem except for the fact it isn't optimal for 3 auratus.

Good luck.

Bill


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

the one that died was the most active, biggest eater.. but i think i found what happened. My boy was trying to help out and told me he caught some ants for them... Not sure of how many or where they came from might have been what happened


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

well Went to check on the other kept in their shoebox encloser and anoth one perished .Something big happened and wiped out 2 frogs.. The third looks lean and fine. I got some pics now that my camera battery is charged up.








any idea what is going on?







..biggest thing is .. Ive had these guys for 3 weeks and then boom all of a sudden .Do you think the ants had something to do with it? Heat? I just dont want this to happen again .These frogs were awesome . Very beautiful creatures and i feel like a a$$ for letting them die.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

What are the temps you've had these frogs at? They can only take 83 as a short spike at best, they prefer it, and need it to be healthy, about 10 degrees lower.


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

well while im at work i have no idea. i didnt have a fan on them ..but when i got home some time 83-85 ... You think maybe they got stressed outy from the heat ?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Unless your room temperature stays in the low to mid 70s at the hottest, you're not going to be able to keep them alive. It sounds like it's a given they died from heat. A fan will take it down only a couple degrees, you need to have a 10 degree lower temperature range for them... In the caresheet, their range is given as 70-80F and you don't want to get it higher than 80....


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

can any body second that that seems to be "the " problem . definatly warrants a fix but wondering if that would kill um


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

I second Corey's comments. While some dart frogs (pumilio) can tolerate sustained temperatures above 80 degrees, most of them need temperatures substantially lower than 83-85. 

A more remote possibility is that the ants fed to the frogs had been exposed to chemicals that harmed the frogs.

However I suspect that heat is the culprit here.

Bill


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

i had my kids take a walk and show me where they found those ants . Its in front of a house and on the sidewalk .. there is just a huge pile of them ..more then i ever seen. Worst news is.. im left with no frogs.. all perished .. All the same way .. not moving , hard breathing, bloated, taken all the information i seen im figuring the heat stressed um out and caused their body to shut down ??? i decided not to put my ac in cause of high electricity bills and such now im kicking my self.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Distilled water would not cause bloat. While it may not be ideal due to lackof minerals it would not cause any adverse effects. Many people us that or RO only. I use RO for misting all of my tanks and only my tadpoles get remineralized RO.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Depending on what the species of ants, some can be very aggressive and bite. Ants are normally not a good food source for your frogs.

You main issue maybe the heat as mid 80s is a bit high for extended periods of time.


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

so you think its safe to try again if i get the heat lowered? is there any tricks on cooling the tank but still keep humidity high. not really fond on making my gas and electric company any richer and putting ac in the house...


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I think that both heat and pesticide residue on the ants are plausible explanations - but would lean towards the heat as the culprit.

The one thing that you mentioned was that the room was 83-85 - so what about the tank? Do you have a light fixture on the tank? If so - what kind? It is very possible with room temps at 83-85 that the viv was near 90. Also - does the viv receive any direct sunlight?


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

catman25 said:


> is there any tricks on cooling the tank but still keep humidity high. not really fond on making my gas and electric company any richer and putting ac in the house...


There are a couple of options. If you have a basement - you can keep the tank down there - as the temps are usually a bit cooler. You could also reverse cycle the lights - so that they come on in the evening, and turn off first thing in the morning. Electric rates are lower then, and you don't have the added heat of the lights when ambient temps are at their greatest.

I do keep my frog room A/Cd (the only room in the house) - as it just makes it easier to control the conditions. Summers in CNY are too unpredictable to risk it without A/C IMO.


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## lovnchely (Jul 17, 2007)

I have a question.... if you reverse cycle the lights will the frogs sleep during the day or night? The one thing that I love about the darts is the fact that I can watch them... they are out and somewhat active while I am up. 

Steph


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

They will sleep when the lights are off... so on a reverse cycle, it would be during the day.


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## bstorm83 (Jul 16, 2007)

I just recently lost one of my frogs to what appears to be bloat. However i have 3 and the one that died looked always to be a bit more rounder. i had him for 2 months and just the other day he was acting weird and then yesterday i found him with coins on his eyes. The other two frogs look perfectly fine and i have no idea how it could of happened. my tank usually hovers at around 78 degrees. on hot days goes to 80-82 max but only for a short period. But i don't think it could be heat because the other two are just fine! any ideas?


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Keeping your frogs in the high 70s and allowing for spikes to the low 80s is somewhat like playing with fire...you don't get burnt all the time but eventually...any additional stress could tip the balance.

Bill


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