# The cracked cork mosaic/living drip wall/pond method...How to



## Dendro Dave

Ok so I've been doing this method off and on in some tanks for the last few years without incorporating a pump/drip wall...and now I've started doing that. I've talked about the basic method on here lots of times but I don't think I've ever made a thread about how to do it so here goes...

Basic concept...
Silicone and/or foam pieces of cork in a pattern that makes it look as if its been "shattered". Keep the cracks between each piece around an inch or less. (pieces thicker then most cork tiles are best for holding moss) and then jamming exoterra forrest moss and/or sphagnum moss into the cracks. You can also add peat, coco bark, and other stuff. The idea is to keep this moist through misting or drip wall and allow living moss to take over the cracks, probably eventually the cork also. The cracks provide places to root plant cuttings. You can also foam/silicone in pots or pieces of cork tubes as planters.

2 choices- First you can just silicone pieces of cork right to the back glass, you can also incorporate pieces of drift wood into the design if you'd like. 2nd You can first silicone a coco mat or something like epiweb to the glass then silicone/foam cork into place over that. This may have the benefit of keeping more water in the actual wall and allow for a thinner dammed off drainage area (which I'll explain). Especially with the coco mat is probably not wise to add heavy drift wood directly to the mat as eventually the mat will pull away from the glass. You can cut the mat to go around drift wood pieces siliconed to the glass. 

In my first tanks with no drip wall the drainage dam wasn't needed but now that I'm doing drip walls I needed something to keep the drip from saturating the entire substrate or at least getting it wetter then I wanted given the plants I'm using. 

This basically consists of a dam around 2 inches high running the length of the drip wall at its base, usually filled with gravel. This is so the water runs straight through the wall and into the false bottom or leca/hydroton layer. This has the added benifit of decreasing the leaching of tannins into a pond area if your pond shares its reservoir of water with the false bottom as mine often do. If you do that and fill it from the pond area and don't over mist you wont get as much tannins in your water, nor as fast an accumulation.

Ideally you will plumb your drip wall in before adding the moss. It can be done after if you forget but it is harder to hide. For my drip walls I am using Tom's lifting pumps with the out put line going to a "T" at the top middle of the wall and 2 lines coming off the "T" with holes punched in them. Intake line is hidden in background and goes to pond section. If your pond is large enough you can use the Tom's prefilters to extend pump life and help prevent clogs. If not you can wrap the end of tube in some kind of filter material and rubber band it, glue it into place...whatever. Basically you just want to prevent large particles from entering the pump.

Ok on to the pics...I think these are pretty self explanatory after the info I've just given but if there are any questions, fire away. I did add some further comments though.








20H, Has a tree fern tile siliconed into place with small fern and moss growing meant to spread through the background








This one clearly shows the plactic strip used as a drip wall dam. Its a lil to short in middle, I'll have to fix it. Basically you just want to slope the substrate up from that towards the center of the tank so it isn't visible. In this pic its a 10gal, and I used a coco mat on the back glass first, so I may be able to get away with piling the substrate right up against the drip wall since most of the water will run down the back glass and coco mat and only a small/slow amount will wick into the main substrate. Drip wall is run on timer and usually just enough to keep the wall moist, not soaked. 

This pic also shows pretty clearly how I do my ponds usually. Unless it is a large pond in a large tank I don't see much point in completely separating it from the false bottom especially since doing it this way greatly slows down evaporation and how often you have to add water to the system. It may look sealed off but water will run or wick through to fill the pond. If I actually managed to completely seal it without trying I'll poke holes through the foam base under the shore so water flows into the pond.

Unfortuately the only old tank I still had running using the basic method was an overgrown 10gal where the plants had mostly blocked light from hitting the background so I didn't have good growth, plus with no drip wall without frequent misting it dried out. Here is a new hex that is starting to grow in and if you use your imagination you should be able to get an idea of the potential effect (It should eventually be a solid mass of green except for some visible cork and all the flowers from plant types I used)....








I did not use the full drainage dam idea here hence the extra tannin load and rapid rate of tanning leaching. I did put extra gravel around the edges under the drip wall but it wasn't enough. This tank is currently being completely flushed several times and large amount of activated charcoal used to clear the tannins to an acceptable level. 

Please keep in mind that all these tanks are new, and only seeded with small moss samples and not fully planted at best...LoL they will be awsome...eventually 

Questions?...Comments?


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## bobzarry

Dave if you ask yourself honestly, you will know that your not happy with those results. You should pack that whole thing up and ship over to me so that I can hide that shameful exhibit from you.


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## gbeauvin

Very cool! Do you have to do it as a drip wall for the moss to grow? I was planning to try to set up some sort of recycling rain system for afternoon showers, but wasn't planning to have any other water features in my viv (20H vert). I have a pile of cork bark that I bought at the aquarium shop that I think would look pretty cool like this.


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## gbeauvin

Can I just attach broms directly to the cork bark with this method, or would I need to embed some pots too? (sorry for the newbie questions... never done a viv before)


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## Dendro Dave

You don't have to have a drip wall but I think it is best or else you have to mist frequently and/or have your tank so sealed up that there is very little air flow and the glass will likely be fogged all the time which I don't like. If you are going to have some kind of rain bar, depending on the way you do it you could have part of the drip happen over the back wall which would basically have the same effect as a drip wall. I word of caution with rain systems though...You can only run them for a very short time without saturating the tank. A hand mister or misting system takes a small amount of water to do its job. A rain bar will probably dump a much higher volume of water in the same time period a mister would. So without some drainage system set up and a really well draining substrate it is easy to over saturate your tank. 

As for broms depending on the species some may be best mounted in pots or planted into the moss cracks rather then mounting them directly to the cork because unless you pump a lot of water through your drip wall the cork surface in many places will still be dry or just barely damp at least until the tank grows in and moss and stuff cover everything then the water can wick into the cork from all those things more readily. If you mount directly to the cork it might be worth wrapping the roots in some sphagnum moss to hold enough moisture.


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## gbeauvin

Dendro Dave said:


> I word of caution with rain systems though...You can only run them for a very short time without saturating the tank. A hand mister or misting system takes a small amount of water to do its job. A rain bar will probably dump a much higher volume of water in the same time period a mister would. So without some drainage system set up and a really well draining substrate it is easy to over saturate your tank.


Thanks for the advice, Dave. My plan has been to put a bulkhead in the "bottom" of the viv (end of the 20H tank) and use a 10-gallon sump down in the stand below the viv, so once the water got through the substrate it'd simply drain down into the sump immediately (leaving 1/4" or so of standing water in the bottom, unless i put a standpipe on the bulkhead and then however tall the standpipe was). I come from an aquaria rather than herp background, so this sort of appeals to me .

I don't want to hijack your thread, so I guess I'll start another on fast-draining substrates .


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## Dendro Dave

Ok a member PM'd me recently asking about how I did drip walls and wanted me to post the info, so I'm just going to quote it here as an addition to the info already given...the crappy blueprint might be especially helpful. If there are any questions feel free to ask especially since I'm not including the OP's PMs some of the info may seem out of context, but I'm lazy so here ya go...




Dendro Dave said:


> Ok to be honest I'm having a little trouble following and not sure on some of what you're asking. I'll give it a shot... OK one of the pics has a view of a clear plastic divider I siliconed into place on the false bottom top about an inch away from the back wall. This one, its clear so it is a bit hard to see...
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> Basically you just fill in that gap with gravel, and slope the substrate up a bit from that point so it isn't visible, also using plants, rocks, wood to hide it since it is only about an inch wide its pretty easy to hide and you won't see a 1 inch strip of gravel running the length of the back in the viv. Really if a little shows and you use nice gravel it is fine, just looks natural.
> 
> For the Dam...
> Whatever you can find that will work, plastic, glass, just something that will stand up to being buried. Yes, the dripwall water is shared with the drainage layer or false bottom. Yes If I understand correctly you will need a second pump to run a waterfall...probably regardless of whether or not the pond/waterfall part shares its water with the false bottom because the Tom's pumps are so low flow, they are only good for running one feature each without a complicated series of valves and making sure everything is level or sloped just right...to much hassle. I would not bother trying to separate the pond and/or waterfall water reservoir from the false bottom in smaller tanks because evaporation will happen so fast you'll constantly be topping off the pond or waterfall. The shared method allows you to go much longer between top offs. In a large viv with a deep wate rfeature it can be worth separating them so the water stays clear and everything looks much nicer, but not in small tanks IMO. Not sure what you are saying or refering to about the "4 or 5 inches is quite a bit of space" statement.
> 
> Here is a diagram of a side view that should pretty much serve as a how-to in and of itself  .....
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> Eh I can't make the pic bigger...hard to see but there is a purple line there as the "Dam", rest still looks readable/visible I think. The output line will be really short, since it is just going from the pump sitting on tank top or hanging on back outside glass to the top of the drip wall where the "T" is. so the output line goes to the T, then on the 2 parts of the T left over you attach a section of line roughly half as long as the drip wall, so the 2 together cover the entire length of the wall. Drill little holes, or melt them into the line ever 2-4 inches probably...try to do only just enough holes so that the water will still spread enough from the point it enters the wall to keep everything moist. I say drill or melt because the airline almost seems to reseal itself when you just poke holes in it. Hope this helps, let me know if further questions


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## Saviorself

Great diagram dave. A couple real nice plants to cover that gravel that would do well with the moisture, crypt lucens, anubias nana petite, anubias nana, anubias cofefolia.


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## Okapi

Bumping this up so newer froggers can see


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## insaneglitchx

So this may sounds like a stupid question. I am currently working on an ExoTerra terrarium. I really want to do this cracked cork bark mosaic style as a background. I have already covered the back wall with black silicone. I have begun to break some cork bark into the pieces that I want, and will soon be placing them onto the back, and one of the walls, of my terrarium. I don't want to try and grow live moss, but I really like the look of the second picture. So, how exactly do you get the sphagnum moss to stick between the pieces of cork bark? Do I stick it to wet silicone on the background?


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## Pumilo

insaneglitchx said:


> So this may sounds like a stupid question. I am currently working on an ExoTerra terrarium. I really want to do this cracked cork bark mosaic style as a background. I have already covered the back wall with black silicone. I have begun to break some cork bark into the pieces that I want, and will soon be placing them onto the back, and one of the walls, of my terrarium. I don't want to try and grow live moss, but I really like the look of the second picture. So, how exactly do you get the sphagnum moss to stick between the pieces of cork bark? Do I stick it to wet silicone on the background?


I'm afraid you have problems already. Fresh silicone does not stick well to old silicone. Your cork bark should have been stuck to the silicone while it was still wet. I'm not sure why you put silicone all over the back but that could be a problem. You may have to scrape off the silicone so you have clean glass to attach to.
Normally you will leave 1/2 to 3/4 inch gaps between you pieces of cork bark. Then you take damp sphagnum moss and just stuff it in. The moss is not actually attached, just stuffed in.


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## insaneglitchx

Pumilo said:


> I'm afraid you have problems already. Fresh silicone does not stick well to old silicone. Your cork bark should have been stuck to the silicone while it was still wet. I'm not sure why you put silicone all over the back but that could be a problem. You may have to scrape off the silicone so you have clean glass to attach to.
> Normally you will leave 1/2 to 3/4 inch gaps between you pieces of cork bark. Then you take damp and just stuff it in. The moss is not actually attached, just stuffed in.


I siliconed the back wall so I wouldn't have tons of ugly great stuff/silicone/eco earth/moss/cork bark randomness seen from any angle. If I do end up having trouble getting additional silicone to stick to the original covering, I could try and use great stuff instead. So if there is nothing really keeping the moss attached to the wall, won't it start falling out like crazy shortly after stuffing it in?


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## Pumilo

Not if your gaps are kept narrow enough and you pack it tight enough. You really pack it in there. Later, plant growth will lock it into place even more.


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## insaneglitchx

Pumilo said:


> Not if your gaps are kept narrow enough and you pack it tight enough. You really pack it in there. Later, plant growth will lock it into place even more.


Awesome! I was really having a hard time trying to figure out how to get moss to stick to silicone or great stuff without letting any of the adhesive show. I was even considering using fishing string somehow. The stuffing makes a lot more sense now that I see how small the spaces are supposed to be. Thanks!


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## Pumilo

Unfortunately, that's also why I worry about the strength of your bark bonding to the wall. Because you really stuff it in there.
Ed has posted a method where you use clay, like a clay background, between the cork pieces. Then you smash some sphagnum into it. I haven't tried that one myself, but thought it worth mentioning.


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## insaneglitchx

Well darn. That's why I became a member of this forum I guess. This is my first attempt at ever creating a realistic terrarium. I just hope it's not too late to fix things. I really liked the look of people's set ups when they siliconed the walls. I just didn't know that silicone didn't stick well to itself.


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## phender

You can use Great Stuff to hold the bark on wall, then use silicone and coconut coir to cover the GS. That's was I did. I think it looks good. I just used sphagnum where I wanted plants.

Here're a couple pics.


















Here it is planted. I have since added leaf litter, rearranged a few things and had some growth so it looks a lot better, but you get the idea.


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## Dendro Dave

Thanks guys for fielding these questions since I haven't been around much lately. Couldn't have said it all better myself. One thing I'll add though is that the thicker the pieces of cork the more space between them you can usually get away with. I tend to keep the spaces an inch or less though. I think a good rule of thumb is no more space between the pieces then the pieces are thick (up to around an inch...stick to around an inch even if the pieces are thicker). The extra thickness allows you to jam more moss in and have the compression/friction whatever hold it in place.

Btw nice viv Phender. That is a good example of how I do these other then I just jam the moss in instead of the coir and in the larger spaces I'd put more pieces of cork to make more "cracks" to hold the moss. Its hard to get the moss to stay in larger open areas like in the lower left side near glass, and top center area in his viv, but totally fine for Phender's variation since it doesn't rely on compression to hold anything in place.


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## Pumilo

Good to see you back Dave! I love this method and didn't want to see it fade away. I originally used it only as a way to use up some extra scrap bits I had left over after resizing cork for about 10 other vivs. I like it so much I'm planning on busting up some cork for my next vivs.
A tip on breaking up your cork. The thicker pieces can be impossible to break. If you simply cut them, the straight edge doesn't look as natural. If you cut halfway through the back (I have used my table saw and also a Dremel tool for this--the Dremel lets you do a rougher, more jagged line), then you can break the piece. This leaves a little more natural looking edge.
I like to place my viv on it's back and lay out all the pieces to see just how they are going to fit. Then I silicone them in one by one. As Dave mentioned in another thread, remember that you don't need to waste cork towards the bottom. Your false bottom, substrate, and leaf litter will take up about 5 inches so you don't need to go all the way down.
Oh, and Dave, you could too have said it better. You would have somehow brought space aliens or a team of trained dragonflies into play!


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## insaneglitchx

I used great stuff to stick all of my cork bark to the walls, and it seems to be holding quite well. I've trimmed the great stuff back, and I'm ready to stuff in the sphagnum moss. So, does it matter whether the moss is wet or dry when I stuff it in?


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## Pumilo

insaneglitchx said:


> I used great stuff to stick all of my cork bark to the walls, and it seems to be holding quite well. I've trimmed the great stuff back, and I'm ready to stuff in the sphagnum moss. So, does it matter whether the moss is wet or dry when I stuff it in?


I do it wet, on the theory that doing it dry may be breaking it up into smaller pieces that are more likely to fall out. Get it wet and squeeze the excess moisture out.


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## Venutus1

Dave, this inspires me to set up a 65 hex I have doing nothing.
Great work. The moss looks great.
I am solidly in the Dendro Dave fan club now. 

Todd


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## cowboy232350

After reading up on this I feel confident to give this a shot!


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## Dendro Dave

Ok sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but I dug this up because of another thread and realized I had never posted a pick of the hex grown mostly grown in so figured I'd do that now (The tank went to friends I haven't seen in awhile...it may look like crap now)...and some people really like this method but the thread is old so many may not have seen it and get some benefit from it....I hope.

Anyways here are a couple shots of the hex (sorry many have you have already seen it, I know). More pics/video in the gallery/youtube links below in my signature of this tank/construction and much much more.


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## Kudaria

I'm glad you did resurrect it. I was actually waffling about whether or not to buy some hygrolon to use in my viv build because I want to have moss growing between the cork pieces but this looks so much easier than trying to figure out how to attach the hygrolon and cork.


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## Dendro Dave

Kudaria said:


> I'm glad you did resurrect it. I was actually waffling about whether or not to buy some hygrolon to use in my viv build because I want to have moss growing between the cork pieces but this looks so much easier than trying to figure out how to attach the hygrolon and cork.


Thanks... I'll actually be trying to mix some hygrolon in the next one I build this way. So you might experiment with that.


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## Kudaria

Hmm not too sure about how to do that, especially as this is my first terrarium/vivarium.

I figure I'm breaking the KISS principle enough by going with a internal fan for interior air circulation and getting more creative than just a fern tree panel for the background.


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## Charlie Q

Kudaria said:


> Hmm not too sure about how to do that, especially as this is my first terrarium/vivarium.
> 
> I figure I'm breaking the KISS principle enough by going with a internal fan for interior air circulation and getting more creative than just a fern tree panel for the background.


I used the cork bark mosaic for my first and only viv. i did not include a drip wall or anything fancy, but the silicone, cork and sphagnum were super easy to apply.


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## Dendro Dave

Kudaria said:


> Hmm not too sure about how to do that, especially as this is my first terrarium/vivarium.
> 
> I figure I'm breaking the KISS principle enough by going with a internal fan for interior air circulation and getting more creative than just a fern tree panel for the background.


Well actually I think I had "epiweb/ecoweb" in my head because it is hard to make the sphagnum stay in place in gaps more then an inch wide usually, so if you want an area with more green in some places instead of putting a cork piece there as part of the mosaic just put a piece of epi/eco web. Then if need be you can pack sphagnum into any gaps just like you would between 2 cork pieces, only this time it is a cork piece and an epiweb piece you are packing the moss between. 

But...
You can also use shaped pieces of pvc, or foam, panels or some type, or even real wood fully or partially wrapped with some hygrolon in places to help things grow there. Basically it is just one more tool to help you do something where that something may not be easily achieved with other methods... It's up to you to be creative 

I'd recommend researching the hygrolon threads to see what others have done with it to give you some ideas. I've been to poor to actually start experimenting with it so far, but I'm sure I can find some uses for it


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## Dendro Dave

Charlie Q said:


> I used the cork bark mosaic for my first and only viv. i did not include a drip wall or anything fancy, but the silicone, cork and sphagnum were super easy to apply.


If you hand mist regularly or better yet have an automated misting system that hits the back wall you probably wouldn't need a drip wall. The moss and stuff will soak up and/or wick up enough water from misting and the substrate unless maybe you have some super super moisture loving plants back there.


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## jacobi

I've actually had a problem with this method. The sphagnum moss came back to life and is taking over my background


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## Dendro Dave

jacobi said:


> I've actually had a problem with this method. The sphagnum moss came back to life and is taking over my background


Wow you can't even keep dead moss dead? ...FAIL. Quit the hobby now


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## rigel10

jacobi said:


> I've actually had a problem with this method. The sphagnum moss came back to life and is taking over my background


Any pics and tips?


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## Charlie Q

Dendro Dave said:


> If you hand mist regularly or better yet have an automated misting system that hits the back wall you probably wouldn't need a drip wall. The moss and stuff will soak up and/or wick up enough water from misting and the substrate unless maybe you have some super super moisture loving plants back there.


I do hand mist regularly, and it does work fine, my sphagnum is also coming back to life all over the background. =)

I also have some crypts, vines, and some other random plants on there. everything is doing great.


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## jacobi

rigel10 said:


> Any pics and tips?


Not really tips per se, but I hand mist heavily daily or every other day, and have a lot of ventilation.


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## jacobi

Whoops. This didn't attach to my post.


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## atp0726

Hmm...so it sounds like a drip wall might not be necessary? I am planning my first viv and I really like this mosaic method, however I am not sure I want to add the drip wall feature. Reason being, I am planning to have a fairly thick layer of foam so that I can have pots buried in the background and I think I will have to make the drainage section wider than I would like using up valuable real estate for planting in my 18x18 bottom. 

My other question is for long term success of the background I am planning on using black silicone, letting it dry and then applying the foam. Before the foam dries I was planning a attaching the cork tile pieces. Does this sound good or is it overkill?


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## Jeremy M

I've been planning on setting up a viv using this method, but incorporating strips of Hygrolon laid down behind the sphagnum. I'm thinking that one wouldn't even need to glue the fabric down to the glass as the sphagnum should hold it in place. Hopefully this would increase the moisture content all the way up the wall, though I'm not sure that the hygrolon would be powerful enough to wick all the way to the top and supply moisture to all of that sphagnum. This may actually be one of two scenarios that Hygrolon's competitor Aquamat may do better than it with its supposedly larger water wicking and retention abilities (the other for simply attaching to flat glass to raise humidity in a tank or open-air environment (probably with some creeping fig thrown on it as well, because it's ridiculous not to grow _some_ type of plant on such a material)). At the very least, using one of these materials should lengthen the timespan of how long the moss will stay moist after misting, or prevent it from fully drying out.

I'd love someone else to try this, as I would only be able to do a small portion as an experiment, and probably not even enough to determine if it's worthwhile or not.


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## Dendro Dave

Since this thread recently got referenced again, and when I looked at it realized I never added some of the Hex construction pics I figured I'd do that instead of forcing everyone to my Flickr account...



















Kinda the only shot I think of the intermediate stage between construction and grown in, so I'll include it even though it sucks...










Take that back here is another a bit further along...









And if you wanna dig through all the pics, here they are...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Refer to earlier posts or the Flickr to see the finished product 

Sorry no actual updates since the viv went to friends years ago, but they said it is still running last time I heard. 


Someone has probably thought of it, but next time I use this method I wanna try covering the glass in spyra, or hygrolon and then attaching the cork so the moisture wicks into the background keeping it moist with less need of misting or a drip wall. If anyone has done this in the original way without foaming in the mosaic I'd like to see/hear how it worked for you. I see no harm in it at least, but I think it will likely improve on the original method. Maybe it will stop people from feeling the need to foam in the mosaic! ...still looks nice, but don't be afraid people. Cork/glass/sphag, that is all you really need


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## edaxflamma

Dendro Dave said:


> Someone has probably thought of it, but next time I use this method I wanna try covering the glass in spyra, or hygrolon and then attaching the cork so the moisture wicks into the background keeping it moist with less need of misting or a drip wall.[...] I see no harm in it at least, but I think it will likely improve on the original method.


Oh man 100% yes. I just picked up a bunch of it myself and will be doing this with my next viv one way or another.

I would imagine it could be a nice addition to a clay background as well. With the clay I would imagine you could lay down your first level of clay, stick the synthetic medium to it and recover the synthetic with clay. Creative use of egg crate could prevent the slippage of the clay layers and the synthetic media would wick up through the clay layer while also covering the eggcrate. Might improve the longevity of the background.


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## skijumpersc

I'm thinking of doing this method, it seems simple and it comes out great, my question is though, how would you go about attaching broms to the cork mosaic wall?

Also, I love the mossy carpet, what kind of moss is that?


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## baskis

skijumpersc said:


> I'm thinking of doing this method, it seems simple and it comes out great, my question is though, how would you go about attaching broms to the cork mosaic wall?
> 
> Also, I love the mossy carpet, what kind of moss is that?


You can jam the woody stolon in the cracks between the cork or use toothpicks to hold it in place, or florists wire. It's quite a good background for plant growth.


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## Dendro Dave

skijumpersc said:


> I'm thinking of doing this method, it seems simple and it comes out great, my question is though, how would you go about attaching broms to the cork mosaic wall?
> 
> Also, I love the mossy carpet, what kind of moss is that?


If your broms have a stem, which most kinds used in frog vivs do; then you can just drill an appropriate sized hole the stem.

Low temp hot glue, quick set epoxy, gorilla glue (which is basically the same material great stuff foam is make from I think... only it doesn't expand.

If you do some fake rock work with painted great stuff foam,or the black pond/waterfall foams out there, you can easily put some mounting holes in the foam.

Baskis's ideas should work too...

A cool way to do this background is also to silicone pieces of drift wood to the back glass, then create your cork mosaic around those pieces and the rest of the background... That way you get a nice 3d background for the frogs to climb, increased surface area for microfauna to live/breed in, on and around, and if misted regularly most of the good woods for vivs will grow moss.

IF you mean the moss in that Hex: that originally started out as a moss that came from T&C plants and vivaria, which I'm not even sure they are still around, but then a micro liverwort that is so small it looks like moss took over. 

I hope to eventually sell it regularly but I keep putting off making a large growing area just for that micro liverwort...

Best thing to do with mosses and liverworts is to just try a bunch of them till you get something that works. Keep vitamin and calcium powders off them as much as possible, and try not to use to much tap water.

Also many mosses actually need more light then people realize... Outside they are a shade plant usually, but the shade outside is actually as bright if not brighter then our vivs often... We just don't see it that way because our eyes adjust to the brighter parts outside, or inside ambient lighting... So vivs appear brighter in our house then they actually are compared to the shade outside usually.

For fluorescent lights on standard sized aquariums about 2-3 watts per gallon is usually enough for moss... 

For leds you tweak the numbers a bit and you'll probably want 1-1.5 watts per gallon.

PAR is the better way to figure it out, but a lot of people don't understand PAR or haven't even looked into it much. So the watts per gallon guideline I feel is still useful to get people in the general ballpark.

If you do know PAR then I think the values for low, med, and high light aquatic plants are a starting point.. So I think you'll want about 25-50 PAR at the floor, and then of course the further off the floor you plant something the more likely it will be hit buy much light, so the PAR will be higher closer to the light.

Most people having trouble growing moss or some plants at the floor under light their tanks for some of the plants they wanna grow, or don't plant the right plants in the right places in the viv.

Basically it's possible to over light a tank and burn plants, especially if you plant lower light requiring plants near the top... But mostly IMHO that happens a lot less then people just not lighting a tank well enough to grow what they are trying to grow, and where they are trying to grow it.


I know you didn't ask about lighting, but that info may come in handy if you want mosses to do well in your tank.

Try as many as you can get your hands on, and try them all over the tank so that at least some will likely end up somewhere they like and then from their start filling in the rest of the tank... Basically survival of the fittest... For mosses 

Moist long fiber sphagnum moss is a pretty good growing medium for most mosses... Also dead mosses, like cushion moss mounds that die will actually become home for other mosses eventually... usually.

DB user Manuran sometimes sells a micro liverwort similar to mine, and actually I got some from him and mixed it with mine, so Its probably impossible for me to tell them apart now or separate them.

He actually has an AD up right now that you may wanna check out.. I don't think the micro liverwort he is selling is the one like I have, and that I got from him before, but a different kind... Still low growing and a nice moss substitute though....

Here's his Ad...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pl...5010-low-growing-tropical-moss-riccardia.html

Might be worth asking if he has some small portions of any other micro liverworts. Mine and his that was very similar to mine grew rapidly and spread easily once they became established.

There is the chance though they will out compete other mosses though, like my micro liverwort did with the T and C moss... it just took it over completely.

Wet drift wood is one of the best places to get micro liverworts established, then they will spread from there.

I do recommend leaf litter over a full moss carpet now, especially for beginners... Leaf litter is so useful in a viv; it just gives you a larger margin for error in your husbandry, but You can still have sections of moss carpet too.


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## skijumpersc

Dendro Dave said:


> If your broms have a stem, which most kinds used in frog vivs do; then you can just drill an appropriate sized hole the stem.
> 
> Low temp hot glue, quick set epoxy, gorilla glue (which is basically the same material great stuff foam is make from I think... only it doesn't expand.
> 
> If you do some fake rock work with painted great stuff foam,or the black pond/waterfall foams out there, you can easily put some mounting holes in the foam.
> 
> Baskis's ideas should work too...
> 
> A cool way to do this background is also to silicone pieces of drift wood to the back glass, then create your cork mosaic around those pieces and the rest of the background... That way you get a nice 3d background for the frogs to climb, increased surface area for microfauna to live/breed in, on and around, and if misted regularly most of the good woods for vivs will grow moss.
> 
> IF you mean the moss in that Hex: that originally started out as a moss that came from T&C plants and vivaria, which I'm not even sure they are still around, but then a micro liverwort that is so small it looks like moss took over.
> 
> I hope to eventually sell it regularly but I keep putting off making a large growing area just for that micro liverwort...
> 
> Best thing to do with mosses and liverworts is to just try a bunch of them till you get something that works. Keep vitamin and calcium powders off them as much as possible, and try not to use to much tap water.
> 
> Also many mosses actually need more light then people realize... Outside they are a shade plant usually, but the shade outside is actually as bright if not brighter then our vivs often... We just don't see it that way because our eyes adjust to the brighter parts outside, or inside ambient lighting... So vivs appear brighter in our house then they actually are compared to the shade outside usually.
> 
> For fluorescent lights on standard sized aquariums about 2-3 watts per gallon is usually enough for moss...
> 
> For leds you tweak the numbers a bit and you'll probably want 1-1.5 watts per gallon.
> 
> PAR is the better way to figure it out, but a lot of people don't understand PAR or haven't even looked into it much. So the watts per gallon guideline I feel is still useful to get people in the general ballpark.
> 
> If you do know PAR then I think the values for low, med, and high light aquatic plants are a starting point.. So I think you'll want about 25-50 PAR at the floor, and then of course the further off the floor you plant something the more likely it will be hit buy much light, so the PAR will be higher closer to the light.
> 
> Most people having trouble growing moss or some plants at the floor under light their tanks for some of the plants they wanna grow, or don't plant the right plants in the right places in the viv.
> 
> Basically it's possible to over light a tank and burn plants, especially if you plant lower light requiring plants near the top... But mostly IMHO that happens a lot less then people just not lighting a tank well enough to grow what they are trying to grow, and where they are trying to grow it.
> 
> 
> I know you didn't ask about lighting, but that info may come in handy if you want mosses to do well in your tank.
> 
> Try as many as you can get your hands on, and try them all over the tank so that at least some will likely end up somewhere they like and then from their start filling in the rest of the tank... Basically survival of the fittest... For mosses
> 
> Moist long fiber sphagnum moss is a pretty good growing medium for most mosses... Also dead mosses, like cushion moss mounds that die will actually become home for other mosses eventually... usually.
> 
> DB user Manuran sometimes sells a micro liverwort similar to mine, and actually I got some from him and mixed it with mine, so Its probably impossible for me to tell them apart now or separate them.
> 
> He actually has an AD up right now that you may wanna check out.. I don't think the micro liverwort he is selling is the one like I have, and that I got from him before, but a different kind... Still low growing and a nice moss substitute though....
> 
> Here's his Ad...
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pl...5010-low-growing-tropical-moss-riccardia.html
> 
> Might be worth asking if he has some small portions of any other micro liverworts. Mine and his that was very similar to mine grew rapidly and spread easily once they became established.
> 
> There is the chance though they will out compete other mosses though, like my micro liverwort did with the T and C moss... it just took it over completely.
> 
> Wet drift wood is one of the best places to get micro liverworts established, then they will spread from there.
> 
> I do recommend leaf litter over a full moss carpet now, especially for beginners... Leaf litter is so useful in a viv; it just gives you a larger margin for error in your husbandry, but You can still have sections of moss carpet too.


Wow, awesome answer Dave, thanks!

I'm going to attempt the driftwood plus cork mosaic. I've got a lot of leaf litter I plan on using, but in one of the other threads I saw your link to your imgur with all your tanks and I got inspired to get a bit more moss growing on the floor in addition to the leaf litter since they looked so awesome. 

I'm looking at getting either a 24x18x18 or a 24x18x24. I've got a 24" finnex planted 24/7+ that I plan on using. I think its maybe not quite as bright as I'd like, but the other thing I liked that I see most of your tanks have is the 3d landscaping. Im gonna try to make the ground have a nice hill in it so that some of the plants are in the higher par range. I might also use your pond technique for one of the front corners.


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## Dendro Dave

Thanks and you're welcome 

One way you can have your cake and eat it too, is to basically do moss at the front glass, and kinda make pit of leaf litter, maybe with a large piece of drift wood partially buried in the substrate, then surround that wood center piece with the leaf litter, and ring the pit of leaf litter with moss.

That'll create a nice area for the frogs to forage, but if the pit of leaf litter is lower then the moss surrounding it, it should kinda create the illusion of a larger moss carpet then you actually have, at least until you stick your face right up to the tank.

Cork tubes are another good option for creating a climbable 3d background for the frogs, and then do the cork mosaic around them... Also using them on the floor partially buried, and/or with long fiber sphagnum or other substrates piled over them, creates hills and valleys on the floor, but since the frogs can go in and through the tubes, and hop on and over them: you basically increase the useable surface area for the frogs, and create more places for microfauna to thrive in.

You can cut the tubes down their length and silicone the edges to the glass and that will create a half moon shaped tunnel the frogs can go in, and it will stick out far enough they can also climb on the outside of the 3d background.... then do your cork mosaic around them with wet long fiber sphag jammed in all the cracks...

Try keeping the cracks/spaces between the cork mosaic/puzzle pieces around half an inch and you shouldn't have much problem with the moss falling out. 

Get a truly miniature vining plant like Ficus pumila [repens] quercifolia
Creeping Fig and that will grow in the sphag filled cracks and anchor everything in place and look really cool.









Since I got the pic from a site that sells it, I'll link to them....
Ficus pumila [repens] quercifolia - Glasshouse Works

But you can probably get it from Josh's frogs, NE herp, glassbox tropicals or other sponsors, or businesses more connected to the hobby. 

If your finnex isn't enough to light the tank on it's own, and you don't wanna sacrifice having dawn/dusk FX, you might try one of the new Aqueon Optibright +'s 

You want the + model, not the regular one.... they do a 30 minute ramp, and you can make them come on during the finnex's really long ramp period so that you get something more like full sun for longer in the day... I love the 24/7's and their colored dawn/dusk fx, but the ramp periods are so long that you only get about 6ish hours of true full sun... Another option around the same price is a beamswork on a ramp timer. The buttons on the fluval ramp timer are kinda a pain, but they do work and are 2 channel, yet still cheaper then currentusa's single channel ramp timer, and of course their dual, and pro models also.

So that's basically how I'm lighting my racks that I'm putting together. A finnex 24/7 or the vivagrow knock off version of the 24/7 in the back of the tank, and then an optibright + in the front... or vise/versa.

That allows me to tweak my dawn/dusk to get a longer/brighter viewing period, but still get my color tinted dawn/dusk FX and moon light.

If you do that though with an optibright plus or other light that has a moonlight, I'd recommend keeping that moon light channel off, or if you can't shut it off completely, set it's timer so it goes off before the light ramps down at dusk, because the finnex or the vivagrow knock off's moonlight can't be shut off when you run the automated 24/7 mode.... and 2 lights with moonlight on are probably going to be to bright, and may disturb the circadian rhythms of of the animals.

The problem with all these led strips is that the automated ones that are affordable are only bright enough when suspended high enough to get full coverage if the tanks are shorter, and not real deep from front to back.... If you set them right on the glass, they are so directional that you don't get full coverage, and end up needing a 2nd light to fill in the rest of the tank and get enough light to all the plants....

The exception is some of the cheap but high powered beamswork... Those you can get in enough wattage to cover an entire tank for pretty cheap and use a ramp timer as long as the fixture is within the ramp timer's specs... I think most of the ramp timers will handle about 60 watts per channel, but don't quote me on that... 

But that should be plenty if your tank is only 24 inches long. You loose the tinted dawn/dusk FX and moonlight, but they are the best chance to light an entire tank with 1 fixture, still get a sunrise/sunset and do it for much cheaper then fixtures like the Sat+ PRO, or Ecoxotic E-series.

But I think a 24/7 and optibright + combo is probably the cheapest way to get full coverage and adequate intensity if you need two fixtures for full coverage and adequate intensity that will give you a tinted dawn/dusk effect with no need to add a ramp timer.

Two optibright +'s on slightly different automated schedules might be cool too... I guess I should try that since I recently got several optibright + fixtures 

They don't have the weather FX, but I don't really like the push button weather FX because if you can't automate them they are just a novelty that you probably won't ever use except to impress someone who comes over and checks out your vivarium.

You can add $15 lavolta music controller, a cheap section of led sticky strip and anytime you play audio near by the light will flash like lightning... so You can get a $10 blue tooth speaker to set on or near the tank, and just pull up a storm video or sound loop from the internet or stored on your phone, and you get a sound responsive storm FX...

If you have a spare smart phone, or buy a cheap used one off ebay and get and mp3 alarm clock app on it: you should be able to sync the sound to play at the same time your mist/rain system goes on, and depending on the app you might be able to adjust the duration and stuff... I haven't actually done it yet, so I can't be sure there is an app that has the right options to do it as perfectly as imagine... But that or just playing audio from something with a speaker near the lavolta music controller are better ways to do storms then the push button FX on some of these lights IMHO.

For anyone wanting to do better weather simulation these threads might be useful...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/168890-dendro-daves-vivarium-tech-finds.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...um-storm-weather-fx-idea-resource-thread.html


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## waterbed fred

bobzarry said:


> Dave if you ask yourself honestly, you will know that your not happy with those results. You should pack that whole thing up and ship over to me so that I can hide that shameful exhibit from you.


 And then YOU should ship it to ME in an unmarked box just in case anyone traces this hideous monstrosity to you. then you can plead "Plausible deniability" and claim it was lost in shipping to you. I'm willing to go that far to help you. Heh Heh Heh............


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## skijumpersc

Dendro Dave said:


> If your finnex isn't enough to light the tank on it's own, and you don't wanna sacrifice having dawn/dusk FX, you might try one of the new Aqueon Optibright +'s
> 
> You want the + model, not the regular one.... they do a 30 minute ramp, and you can make them come on during the finnex's really long ramp period so that you get something more like full sun for longer in the day... I love the 24/7's and their colored dawn/dusk fx, but the ramp periods are so long that you only get about 6ish hours of true full sun... Another option around the same price is a beamswork on a ramp timer. The buttons on the fluval ramp timer are kinda a pain, but they do work and are 2 channel, yet still cheaper then currentusa's single channel ramp timer, and of course their dual, and pro models also.


Cool, I was totally unaware of these Optibright fixtures. I think that sounds like a good solution, especially if I end up going with a 24 high exoterra.

Do you know if they're 6500k? I've been doing some research, but no one has their color listed, not even the aqueon website


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## Dendro Dave

waterbed fred said:


> And then YOU should ship it to ME in an unmarked box just in case anyone traces this hideous monstrosity to you. then you can plead "Plausible deniability" and claim it was lost in shipping to you. I'm willing to go that far to help you. Heh Heh Heh............


I was lost for sec since that original comment was from 2010 LOL.... But it turns out my friends had kids awhile back, and haven't kept up the viv and/or lost interest in it, so awhile back they said I could come get it... I just haven't gotten around to cleaning my car out and driving to Oklahoma city to pick it up yet. 

So eventually It may end up coming home, and getting restored to it's former glory. ...and then I'll just keep it 



skijumpersc said:


> Cool, I was totally unaware of these Optibright fixtures. I think that sounds like a good solution, especially if I end up going with a 24 high exoterra.
> 
> Do you know if they're 6500k? I've been doing some research, but no one has their color listed, not even the aqueon website


They appear to be and because of the RGB's you can change the color temp some. I have the light over a 10gal next to my bed and the color temp appears to be about the same as any other 6500k lights I've used, or the finnex 24/7 which is 7000k I think.

So you have the 6500 or whatever they are on channel 1... a few blue moon lights on channel 2, and some RGB's on channel 3... 

And You can set the on off time independently for each of the 3 channels... and then the 30min dawn/dusk is supposed to be automatic.

I asked in the comments of Aqueon's older optibright fixture if all the light channels ramped up and down on the optibright + and they said they did.... You can see the comments here (Same avatar of my fox in the sink I use on this forum)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfgnE1tHkak

But even though I have one on a tank near my bed I don't think I've caught the rgb or blues ramping yet... not sure since it might have been during the time the whites were on and thus not very noticable. I keep screwing with the settings also, and I think the light has to run through the rest of the previous lighting schedule before the new settings take effect... So that's effected my ability to catch the light running it's automated schedule.

At the very least though you should be able to set the rgb and blues to come on after the whites and go off before the whites, and the whites should do the 30min up/down ramp if the others don't. That should hide the hard on/off of the blues and rgb's if they don't ramp like the whites should... but according to Aqueon they should ramp themselves as the whites do.

For the moment I have mine set so the moonlights run most of the day because they aren't enough to skew the color temp to an unpleasing degree IMO, and should help with plant growth a little. Then they are scheduled to go off a lil after 2am to give the tank some full dark period.

I am still unsure how to set the rgb's on the optibright+ to stay on the color I want....

What seems to work is while the minutes are flashing for the RGB's off time, hit the color button you want a few times and then hit the "set enter" button and that finishes off the 3 channel timer programming since the RGB's are the last channel you program before returning to the clock.

The other way that may work is to push the rgb scroll button (Says rgb with a circular arrow going around "rgb") to 100... 25, 50, and 75 make the rgb's cycle through the different colors, but for 100 it says "Color will stop scrolling and be set to the color you selected" ...and I assume as the light runs through the automated program it will use that color, and ramp it up/down if Aqueon's info is correct.

Or it may be as simple as just hitting whatever color you want on the controller and that's the color the automated program will run till you change it. I'ts kinda odd because there are ON/OFF buttons for each lighting channel also, and I'm not sure how that effects your automated program. Turning say the RGB's off may leave them off forever, or just until the automated schedule reaches the part where the RGB's are supposed to come on again... I"m not sure. All these new automated led fixtures are cool, but seems each one has it's quirks, and sometimes you have to let the 24 hour cycle run before you see whether or not the light is doing what you want it to do. Although there isn't really much to tweak on a finnex 24/7 or vivagrow knock off, because you either like it's automated schedule and decide to use it... or you don't.

Setting the RGB's to white, red or purple along with the blue moonlights will give you the best light for plants (as green is the most useless to the plants), but the compromise I've set mine to is either to run the Orange or yellow RGB setting along with the blue moon light channel.

This combines to kinda replicate that weird lighting you see at dawn or dusk, when the sky is kinda blue or purplish and the sun and/or clouds are red and/or orange.... IF there is any over lap where your blues are still on while your rgb's are on, this looks much better to me then using the Red color setting, because if that over laps with the blue moonlights you just get a purple tank. The yellow or orange settings seem like a good compromise between getting more red out of the fixture for better plant growth and to offset the blues to keep the color temp pleasing to they eye.

Setting the RGB's to full white gives you the brightest light for viewing and best light for plants, but there's probably plenty of blue in there already with the 6500k whites on, and especially if you run the moon lights during the day too... So if you run the RGBs on white also, it's a different shade of white then the normal white leds and it will throw the color temp off a bit, especially with the blue moonlights on to the point some people may not like it... So that's why I'm using the orange or yellow setting, while running the blue moonlights most of the day. 

Here is one of the few video's I've been able to find on the optbright + because they are so new. *This guy didn't even know that the lights were supposed to ramp up/down when he bought them: so take what he says with a grain of salt.* Also in one part of the video he kinda makes it sound like you can't set the RGBs to come on a specific color, but what I think he means is you can't make the rgbs turn the red on, then a few minutes later turn the green on, then a few minutes later turn the blue on... Which you can't... that'd make this a 5 channel light instead of 3, which is unlikely at this price point... But yes you can make the RGBs run any of the colors that there is a preset button for, and supposedly they should ramp up/down like the other channels....





*So... much of this post will make more sense if you actually have the light and instructions, but there it is.* Eventually I may create a thread on this fixture with this info and whatever else I can come up with and more videos if I find some... or get off my butt and make one.

Kinda derailed my own thread LOL


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## martini5788

I'm so glad you're back dendrodave because I have a question about the aqualifter. I have a spare one lying around and I am planning to use it for a drip wall in my 50 gallon build that I am currently working on. How long do they last? The one that I use on my saltwater tank for a top off system is still going after a year but it isn't running all the time. I will also have a small pond in the tank as well, not very large 6"x8" in a triangular type shape( if that makes any sense haha). I plan on having the drip wall be directly behind the pond area. The goal is to have 3 different tubing set up and silicones behind the cork. 1. In the pond itself but covered with mesh, 2. In another part of the drainage area on the opposite side of the tank 3. Split into a t drilled into the cork. I wanted to do this so that if the drip wall ends up not working I can still have some circulation in the pond itself and the drainage area. Another question, could I use a single piece of larger cork for the drip wall or is the mosaic the best approach? I have a large piece of cork that I wanted to use instead of the mosaic but will do the mosaic if necessary. Sorry to resurrect and old post but its an awesome thread and was hoping that you would respond, fingers crossed! Thanks again! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GOSKN5

Does anyone have any suggestions on filling larger gaps between the cork? If covering a larger space without buying a TON of cork.. what other options can fill the space and look nice? 

I thought about just a solid colored background or even some cocoa fiber siliconed to fill the space? Assuming of course no room for frogs to climb behind.. anyone ever done that?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Isaac

Thank you for sharing this method. I built a vivarium around 3-4 years ago using this technique, with a drip wall. I ran a submersible aquarium pump for 30 minutes, once a day to every other day. It saturates the background, and has made plant growth excellent. Recently, I was pulling some oak leaf creeping fig off of the background, which has absolutely taken over, and pulled a number of the cork pieces off. 

I did use a significant amount of silicone, so was somewhat confused as to why the cork separated. It looks like the cork degraded where it met the silicone, and caused the failure. I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem. 

In order to fix this, the first approach I could think of would be to use significantly more silicone, so even if the boundary degrades, the cork will have a better chance of being mechanically locked to the wall. However, I used a bunch of silicone and was attempting to do this when originally set up, so don't think that is the best solution. I was thinking a better fix may be to add some additional hardware which won't degrade, to anchor the cork bark even further. Does anyone have any experience with a similar failure, or have some experience that may translate to a different solution? 

I'd like to try this method again to fix the tank, because of how great the results have been so far. If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. If not hopefully this is useful for someone else.


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## minorhero

Isaac said:


> I'd like to try this method again to fix the tank, because of how great the results have been so far. If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. If not hopefully this is useful for someone else.


Just spit ballin but you could try using stainless steel screws and stainless steel washers. If they are screwed into the wood (but not through the wood) from behind they would provide little nubs that could be buried in silicone. Metal isn't the best bond to silicone but if surrounded it might hold once the wood decays.


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## Encyclia

Sorry you had this problem. I have had pretty good luck with my cracked cork mosaic backgrounds. The most I have had to to is to stick some more sphagnum in the gaps over time as I dragged it out doing something similar to what you were describing. It's not impossible to pull hard enough to get the cork out in my tanks, but it's pretty hard. I just make sure I am not hauling on the cork itself. The only difference I can think of is that maybe your cork was wet or dusty or something when you put it in in the first place? I guess it also could have been expired or low-quality silicone, but I am just guessing. If you used the stuff we are supposed to use (non-organotin based curing silicone - GE Silicone I or equivalent not Silicone II), not expired, it was mounted between two clean surfaces (cork and glass), and it cured properly, you shouldn't have any problem with the cork pulling off. Out of maybe a dozen tanks I have at my house, some of which are over 5 years old, I have never had a piece of cork come off the back wall completely. 

If I was to try to fix that situation, I would probably pull out the cork pieces that feel sketchy, get rid of all the silicone left with a clean razor blade (and maybe clean it with something? Doug can tell you), and start again. Use more silicone this time and maybe shave down the contact points of the cork until you have a flatter, larger area for the silicone to grab. Finally, and maybe this is the ticket, really ram the sphagnum into the gaps hard with your fingers. Get as much sphagnum as possible into each gap. That way, when you are done, you should have a single, relatively solid unit that shores itself up across the whole background and lends stability to all the pieces of cork. 

Best of luck,

Mark



Isaac said:


> Thank you for sharing this method. I built a vivarium around 3-4 years ago using this technique, with a drip wall. I ran a submersible aquarium pump for 30 minutes, once a day to every other day. It saturates the background, and has made plant growth excellent. Recently, I was pulling some oak leaf creeping fig off of the background, which has absolutely taken over, and pulled a number of the cork pieces off.
> 
> I did use a significant amount of silicone, so was somewhat confused as to why the cork separated. It looks like the cork degraded where it met the silicone, and caused the failure. I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem.
> 
> In order to fix this, the first approach I could think of would be to use significantly more silicone, so even if the boundary degrades, the cork will have a better chance of being mechanically locked to the wall. However, I used a bunch of silicone and was attempting to do this when originally set up, so don't think that is the best solution. I was thinking a better fix may be to add some additional hardware which won't degrade, to anchor the cork bark even further. Does anyone have any experience with a similar failure, or have some experience that may translate to a different solution?
> 
> I'd like to try this method again to fix the tank, because of how great the results have been so far. If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. If not hopefully this is useful for someone else.


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