# Captive Hybrids - Devil's Advocate



## SmallScaleDan (Nov 16, 2008)

I understand that we, in the mainstream, serious part of the dart frog hobby, are wholeheartedly, and vehemently against captive propagation of hybrids and even mixing different localities of the same species. 

I have myself, and I've heard others, admonish newbs from making mixed species tanks to avoid this issue.

I have read posts on this board where people make comments like,"It's a tragedy," and, "It's a sad day for the hobby," when someone offers a crossed locality frog like "agreja" for sale, BUT

I don't think I've ever heard a really convincing argument from anyone as to why it is so bad. I know what my opinion on the subject is, but I would like to hear from all of you. 

As an exercise in healthy thinking, I'll argue against certain assertions (playing devil's advocate) to help clarify our point of view. 

I hope you'll choose to participate, or at least read along... 

So to kick things off: 

Why is it such a big deal to cross two frogs together in captivity? Wouldn't it be cool to make more, weird looking frogs to keep? Hit me with your best shot. Don't be shy.  


Thanks, 

Dan


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

ok, the reason to separate frogs is to preserve there NATURAL evolution in color patterning. The purity of the locales have developed over years due to natural dividers in the rainforest. Mixing them up just annihilates the natural color differences that have evolved over hundreds of years. It would not be "cool" to make new colors bc 
1. nature makes plenty of cool patterns 
2. over time all the frogs would be 1 mixed pattern and you would have no idea where in the world your frogs come from.

The same reason people dont just breed their pure bred dogs. If you mixed all the dogs together, you wouldent have any diversity.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Dan do your home work and read the many threads on this and you will see reasons over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
for not doing it.
Now wouldn't that be cool.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

mordoria said:


> I don't think I've ever heard a really convincing argument from anyone as to why it is so bad.


REALLY?

ok, the reason to separate frogs is to preserve there NATURAL evolution in color patterning. The purity of the locales have developed over years due to natural dividers in the rainforest. Mixing them up just annihilates the natural color differences that have evolved over hundreds of years. It would not be "cool" to make new colors bc 
1. nature makes plenty of cool patterns 
2. over time all the frogs would be 1 mixed pattern and you would have no idea where in the world your frogs come from.

The same reason people dont just breed their pure bred dogs. If you mixed all the dogs together, you wouldent have any diversity.


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## ICS523 (Mar 10, 2012)

this is the best explanation I could find, it was originally posted by Manuran on another thread:



> If I were to guess why the dartfrog hobby is so different, I would say it is due to parts of it's origins. Many of the early hobbyists came from specialty aquarium groups, such as the killifish hobby. If you know anything about the killifish hobby, they are even more specific as to where a particular fish is from. This was due to the difficulty in acquiring killifish back in the earlier days. First, there were very few commercial collections of these fish and if you screwed up and lost the purity of the stock, it could be a long, long time before someone went back in and collected more. Secondly, the taxonomy of many of these fish were in question at the time, so it was a puzzle as to where one species ended and the next began. The end result was that a killifish from the puddle on the right shouldn't be bred with what looked to be the same species from the puddle on the left. Now, that's definitely an exaggeration, but generally how it worked.
> 
> In the early days of this dartfrog hobby (and even now to some degree), the same issues existed. Getting breeding stock of dart frogs was not an easy task, and if you lost (or ruined the purity of) the stock, it would be a long, long time before you got the chance to replace it. Also, I think to a small degree we in the hobby have always wrestled with where the lines are drawn, not necessarily between species, but more where one population ends and another begins. So, historically there has always been a very conservative approach to the problem and the hobby was very reluctant to mix much of anything. Now that the hobby has grown, matured, and educated itself, it turns out that these attitudes were helpful and have served us well. Especially now that some of the issues facing us are even more complicated.


anyway here is a link to that thread:http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/85165-ideology-behind-not-mixing-morphs.html

the fact that the gene pools in this hobby are not a muddy mess of different species probably help the frogs out in the wild.
if it was hard to get pure stock, many frogs even the common ones would have to be continually smuggled to obtain clean un hybridized frogs.

be careful what you say about hybrids some of these guys are cold hardened hobbyist who get annoyed SUPER easily on these threads!


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

Dan,

I'm assuming you were probably reading the thread on Dart Den about the hybrids in Vegas. I was too because it was like watching a horrible soap opera or wrestling, just couldn't look away.

There are definitely plenty of threads that state the reasons why mixing shouldn't be done. I've only been coming to this site since Feb and I've seen probably 10-12 threads with really good explanations popup, and that's not counting just searching for the topic myself.

That being said the most important reasoning in my opinion is this:

We are working with CITES II species, which makes the import/export of frogs highly regulated or even illegal depending on the country of origin. This is a good thing since over-collection of wild frogs could lead to their eventual extinction- there are cases of this occurring with parrots or other highly sought-after animals for the pet trade.

If we muddle the genetic lines of captive frogs we are essentially creating a higher demand for wild caught specimens. Whether that be immediate or sometime down the road collectors will want animals that represent the wild populations. If a country or region is closed to export then the frogs will either be unavailable to the hobby or (even worse) they will be smuggled out of their native country and into ours. 

Smuggling can directly lead to endangerment and eventually extinction. These frogs have to deal with enough problems in the wild, let's not add rampant and wide-spread smuggling to the list.

Keeping genetic lines pure will keep the need for importing frogs to a minimum, there's no better argument for not mixing than that!


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## jruffing46 (Jul 10, 2008)

Oh geeze...I think a can of worms just opened.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

I dont want no Mutt frogs!


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Dan, I appreciate you taking a thoughtful approach to asking this question. However it has been asked over and over and over again. Please do a search and read the multiple, multiple threads on this topic. Then if you still have any questions feel free to come back and post an opinion or a question. This topic has been covered ad nauseum on this forum in the past, and again just recently.


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

The main problem is that people can't manage to keep hybrids to themselves. They almost always get out in the population and eventually mislabeled. 

The spider keeping hobby is an excellent example of this. It's almost impossible to say which _Avicularia sp._ you have for sure. _Brachypelma_ and _Theraphosa_ are also are big problem. It is very difficult to impossible to straighten out a genus once it is muddied.

People give hybrids to other people. People are always the problem no matter how good their intentions are.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm sorry, but this is utterly ridiculous. They very way you begin this it is very clear that you expect a negative thread filled with arguments. In fact you state that you want to *play* "Devil's Advocate". 
A "Devil's Advocate", by definition, is one who takes up one side of an *ARGUMENT*, *for the sake of argument*. devil's advocate - definition of devil's advocate by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. Devil's advocate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
The fact that you state up front that you wish start a big argument, that you are well aware will be a big argument, does not make it OK, fun, or "an exercise in healthy thinking". 
This has been done over and over again. 30 seconds spent searching, will give you many, many hours of reading and research materials.
It cannot be made any clearer that the very reason you started this thread is for your own enjoyment, to watch the fireworks.
I'm of the opinion that with your clearly stated intent, this thread is trolling and should be shut down.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> I'm sorry, but this is utterly ridiculous. They very way you begin this it is very clear that you expect a negative thread filled with arguments. In fact you state that you want to *play* "Devil's Advocate".
> A "Devil's Advocate", by definition, is one who takes up one side of an *ARGUMENT*, *for the sake of argument*. devil's advocate - definition of devil's advocate by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. Devil's advocate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> The fact that you state up front that you wish start a big argument, that you are well aware will be a big argument, does not make it OK, fun, or "an exercise in healthy thinking".
> This has been done over and over again. 30 seconds spent searching, will give you many, many hours of reading and research materials.
> ...


EXTREMELY well said. Why doesn't a moderator just close it now, before a fight hatches out of the shell that is waiting for something like this to
happen?


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## ICS523 (Mar 10, 2012)

not trying to start something, but doesn't he have the right to ask questions???

I mean yeah, he probably could have done some more research first, but he probably just wanted to know WHY there is such distaste for hybrids (a legitimate question).
you may notice that most of the negativity on this thread started with people replying, not the topic itself. I really dont understand why people are so unhelpful on threads like this. shouldn't we try and educate people instead of making them feel bad. anyways, I think his intentions were sincere and its not fair to punish people just for asking questions.


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## Daleo (Jan 31, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> I'm sorry, but this is utterly ridiculous. They very way you begin this it is very clear that you expect a negative thread filled with arguments. In fact you state that you want to *play* "Devil's Advocate".
> A "Devil's Advocate", by definition, is one who takes up one side of an *ARGUMENT*, *for the sake of argument*. devil's advocate - definition of devil's advocate by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. Devil's advocate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> The fact that you state up front that you wish start a big argument, that you are well aware will be a big argument, does not make it OK, fun, or "an exercise in healthy thinking".
> This has been done over and over again. 30 seconds spent searching, will give you many, many hours of reading and research materials.
> ...


I don't think this was the intention of the post. I think the better word for argument is discourse. I agree that this is a topic well discussed. In the end, do it if you want. Free will, whatever... But don't expect anyone serious about the hobby to buy the hybrid frogs. The frogs are beautiful enough as it is. It's not a matter of can they be mixed, but should they be mixed.


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## SmallScaleDan (Nov 16, 2008)

To all of you who think that because a subject has been covered on a forum in the past it is off limits: 

Forums are dynamic, and conversations are what makes them work. If we just mark all topics off of a list, we'll run out of topics. If you are bored with the conversation, don't participate. 

I feel I have something to add to the conversation that may not have been considered. I feel I have a way of approaching it that might make people think about it in a different way. I don't want to change anyone's mind. I like the no hybrid approach, but I would like to offer the chance to look at the hybrid thing with an open mind. 

I will not be bullied into submission, and I will state my argument in a FRESH thread. Again, I'm not trying to make anyone hate me, I just want to talk about this. You have every right to not open this thread and not respond. Thanks. 


Ok. To respond to the people who have made arguments... I am doing this as "devil's advocate" and to, yes, intentionally start a discussion.... I have never, and don't plan to ever hybridize frogs in captivity. I'm just being open minded. 


David or "Mordoria" stated: 

"The reason to separate frogs is to preserve there NATURAL evolution in color patterning. The purity of the locales have developed over years due to natural dividers in the rainforest. Mixing them up just annihilates the natural color differences that have evolved over hundreds of years." 

"Devil's Advocate" would say: I totally agree with this statement, but it doesn't say why it is WRONG to interbreed. It says why it is wrong to interbreed if your preference is to preserve wild types. Because of this, your argument is a matter of preference. It's like saying I don't like coffee, and you can't like it either. 

Mordoria went on to say: 

" It would not be "cool" to make new colors bc
1. nature makes plenty of cool patterns
2. over time all the frogs would be 1 mixed pattern and you would have no idea where in the world your frogs come from.
The same reason people dont just breed their pure bred dogs. If you mixed all the dogs together, you wouldent have any diversity."

Devil's advocate response: 

By using the domesticated dog as an example, you have unraveled your own argument. No domestic dog is a naturally occurring form. They are all the result of selective breeding, crossing of localities, crossing of established breeds etc. All of that "hybridizing" has not created one color form of dog. On the contrary, it has created many, very different forms. There is no reason to think that crossing frog localities and selectively breeding for traits in the offspring wouldn't have the exact same effect. 
It is common practice with Goldfish, cats, horses, etc. etc. etc. 

This is acceptable in the breeding of the plants you all keep in your vivariums why not the frogs too? 


ICS523, by way of quote and re-statement said,

If I were to guess why the dartfrog hobby is so different, I would say it is due to parts of it's origins. Many of the early hobbyists came from specialty aquarium groups, such as the killifish hobby. If you know anything about the killifish hobby, they are even more specific as to where a particular fish is from. This was due to the difficulty in acquiring killifish back in the earlier days. First, there were very few commercial collections of these fish and if you screwed up and lost the purity of the stock, it could be a long, long time before someone went back in and collected more. Secondly, the taxonomy of many of these fish were in question at the time, so it was a puzzle as to where one species ended and the next began. The end result was that a killifish from the puddle on the right shouldn't be bred with what looked to be the same species from the puddle on the left. Now, that's definitely an exaggeration, but generally how it worked.

In the early days of this dartfrog hobby (and even now to some degree), the same issues existed. Getting breeding stock of dart frogs was not an easy task, and if you lost (or ruined the purity of) the stock, it would be a long, long time before you got the chance to replace it. Also, I think to a small degree we in the hobby have always wrestled with where the lines are drawn, not necessarily between species, but more where one population ends and another begins. So, historically there has always been a very conservative approach to the problem and the hobby was very reluctant to mix much of anything. Now that the hobby has grown, matured, and educated itself, it turns out that these attitudes were helpful and have served us well. Especially now that some of the issues facing us are even more complicated." 

"Devil's Advocate" response: 
This is an origins argument, and it explains why the hobby is what it is, but it doesn't state why it is WRONG for Exotics Pets Las Vegas to sell inter-locale crosses. 
Buried in this argument is the indication that the hobby has changed. While I agree that it wouldn't make much sense to get a rare species in that few people have, and immediately cross it with a leucomelas. I also agree that back in the day, crossing frogs would have been a strange way to start, but I don't think that leucomelas populations, wild or captive, will be effected by crossing leucs with tincs given their huge numbers in captivity today. 

Also, from a taxonomy standpoint: Most herpetologist would not take a captive animal seriously from a taxonomic standpoint regardless of how pure it's breeding is. Captive animals are simply not useful to them. Trust me, my adviser in college was one of them.  

He/she went on to say: 

the fact that the gene pools in this hobby are not a muddy mess of different species probably help the frogs out in the wild.
if it was hard to get pure stock, many frogs even the common ones would have to be continually smuggled to obtain clean un hybridized frogs."

Devil's Advocate: 
This is an interesting argument that I think requires some research to prove it out. My initial thought would be that, on the contrary, the fact that the hobby values locale specific animals would INCREASE the frequency of wild caught animals. For example: People who breed cornsnakes are generally interested in one thing: what they look like. As a result, people rarely seek out wild collected corns for breeding. Lampropeltis alterna breeders value locality over almost anything else, even appearance. As a result they ONLY BUY LOCALITY ANIMALS, and they even go to West Texas to collect them. The only way to know you have a pure, locale specific snake, is to get it directly from the locale. In this way, people valuing pure frogs may actually put more pressure on wild populations. 

Finally he/she said:

"be careful what you say about hybrids some of these guys are cold hardened hobbyist who get annoyed SUPER easily on these threads! "

I would respond, not as devil's advocate, and say... just don't participate. There are plenty of other threads to read and respond to. 

Next we have MATT Dev30ils.... Who restated the captive collection argument. I already responded to that above.  

We then saw Mordoria make another appearance when he elegantly stated: 
"I dont want no Mutt frogs! "

I really have no response to that.  

Finally, as of my last reading of this thread... 

We have LizardLicker... (great screen name btw)  

"The main problem is that people can't manage to keep hybrids to themselves. They almost always get out in the population and eventually mislabeled.

The spider keeping hobby is an excellent example of this. It's almost impossible to say which Avicularia sp. you have for sure. Brachypelma and Theraphosa are also are big problem. It is very difficult to impossible to straighten out a genus once it is muddied.

People give hybrids to other people. People are always the problem no matter how good their intentions are."

Devil's advocate respons: 

I think this is the best argument I've heard yet! Irresponsible hybrid producers may mislabel animals, intentionally or unintentionally, and introduce them into the captive population to mix with other frogs. 

However, I think this is an argument for buyer beware rather than an argument for why it is wrong to keep and breed hybrids. If you are a person who wants pure bloodlines and nothing else, you should only purchase from well respected, vetted frog producers who can be trusted not to make these sorts of mistakes. 

Further, you should keep good personal records of the origin both genetically, and spatially of your frogs, so that you don't "forget where they came from." 

However, it still isn't an argument for why it is WRONG to hybridize. It is still a preference. Just like coffee. 

There were no further constructive comments on this thread, so I'll wrap it up there. After a few more are posted, I'll continue. 

Thanks, 

Dan


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## SmallScaleDan (Nov 16, 2008)

To respond in advance to your argument to shut the thread down to avoid and brawl... If we all conduct ourselves in an adult manner, that won't happen. It is possible to discuss things, even contentious things, without being rude. 

You will find that I never have, and never will make accusations, treat people badly, call names, use foul language, but I will vigorously vet statements passed off as fact. 


However, if my discussion isn't welcome here, I will withdraw. Sorry to cause so much trouble. 

Dan


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

SmallScaleDan said:


> David or "Mordoria" stated:
> 
> "The reason to separate frogs is to preserve there NATURAL evolution in color patterning. The purity of the locales have developed over years due to natural dividers in the rainforest. Mixing them up just annihilates the natural color differences that have evolved over hundreds of years."
> 
> "Devil's Advocate" would say: I totally agree with this statement, but it doesn't say why it is WRONG to interbreed. It says why it is wrong to interbreed if your preference is to preserve wild types. Because of this, your argument is a matter of preference. It's like saying I don't like coffee, and you can't like it either.


Actually Mordoria, DID state why hybrids are unacceptable. 
These population are separated in the wild and have no interaction with each other and no natural integration between the populations in the wild. It's not just the natural "color difference" that we would be screwing up. All of these locations are evolving into their own separate species in the wild, they are evolving a totally distinct set of genetics different than their counterparts in a different population. By mixing or hybridizing in captivity you are mixing those genes, something that doesn't happen in the wild. You are taking creation into your own hands. There certainly is a moral issues that comes with that. 

Dan, IMO you ARE trying to stir the pot just for arguments sake. You have been a member of this forum since 2008. Though you don't have many posts to your credit (one wonders why that is) you have undoubtedly seen this argument play out many many times before. So why are you starting it anew? Let me be the first to tell you, if it's an argument you seek, an argument you will find.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

ICS523 said:


> I really dont understand why people are so unhelpful on threads like this...


That's because you have been here since Mar 2012 (not meant to be a shot at you AT ALL). I've only been here 5 years and I am sick to death of the topic and where it ultimately goes...I can only imagine how the old-timers feel. It's not an excuse to be rude, but if you look you will notice they very rarely weigh in on this any more...I think "unhelpful" describes it well.

I appreciate the OP and his efforts to keep the dialog mature and civil. I've probably seen 10-12 of these threads approached that way and a handful of times it's worked. The problem is IMO you're approaching the issue incorrectly. You will never prove that hybrids are RIGHT or WRONG because that's a moral judgement. In the end, hybrid or not, you are talking about a single frog. What could possibly be morally WRONG about a frog?

The question you should be asking (well...researching) is "Are hybrids good or bad for the hobby?"

I think that answer can be found much more clearly.


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## SmallScaleDan (Nov 16, 2008)

boondoggle- I'm not researching. I know where I stand. I just want to discuss. 

I have been reading this forum for years, yes. I have been keeping and breeding darts since 2001. I have started posting recently partially because I have high quality plants, frogs, and terraria that I would like to advertise in the classifieds, but I didn't have enough posts. 

I'm not a newb, and I'm aware this is a contentious subject. I wanted to voice some thoughts I had. I chose this forum, because I thought the people here were capable of a higher level of discussion. If I just wanted to "see fireworks" I would go to Kingsnake.com and start this thread. I don't need the attention. (My many years of never posting are proof of that) 


I want to have the discussion again in my style, because the big personalities on the forum have always overpowered any reasonable argument for hybridization. 

My contention is that their argument is one of preference and not one of right or wrong. I'm fine with that. I prefer pure lines. 

However, I think it is WRONG to say that someone who prefers hybrids is morally screwed up, or bringing the downfall of the hobby, or causing the sky to fall. 


What Rusty just said is a perfect example. 

My question about Rusty's argument is: What does captive breeding have to do with wild populations. Your argument only works if you then release the hybrids you create to the wild. breeding hybrids in captivity doesn't affect wild populations at all. 

Also, there is more to consider about breeding than simply crossing different localities. All of us "pull eggs." and artificially raise eggs and tads. Do you think that has no effect on the evolution of the frog? Of course it may, but in a captive environment it doesn't matter, and neither does hybridizing. 

As far as the playing god portion of your argument.... 

Don't we do that already? By removing them from the jungle, placing them in artificial environments, feeding them fruit flies, and removing all selection pressure? 

Again, I'm not saying we should all start hybridizing. I will not be hybridizing, or buying hybrid frogs. I just want to present a solid, scientific argument, and give the hybridizers the benefit of the doubt. 

Dan


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

SmallScaleDan said:


> To all of you who think that because a subject has been covered on a forum in the past it is off limits:
> 
> *<snip>*
> 
> ...


The part I highlighted is a little flawed (in my humble opinion) in terms of us as hobbyists. Herpetologists have access to wild animals for their research and can often go to the natural habitat. As hobbyists, we often don't have the same access. We rely on captive bred animals. 

It should be our goal as hobbyists to ultimately stop taking animals from the wild. To do this we need a good population of captive bred animals. The danger of any hybrid is that eventually the "pure" line, or what we started with, is lost. 

I have raised, and bred, spiders for years. This _has happened_ in that hobby. There are many _Avicularia spp._ that look similar to one another. People think they have one thing when they really have a mix of a couple things. As I mentioned in my earlier post, this also happened with the _Theraphosa_ genus. For a great while, we thought that _Theraphosa blondi_ and _Theraphosa apophysis_ were all we had in the hobby. Later we found that there was another, _Theraphosa sp. burgundy_ which I believe was later changed to _Theraphosa stirmi._ The spiders _stirmi_ and _blondi_ are very similar as adults. Who knows how many of those spiders were crossbred unintentionally. 

Admittedly, the last example is more difficult to prevent. However, is stresses the importance of due diligence. If you are going to breed animals you bear the responsibility of determining exactly what you have. Sadly, this is often lost in the hobby. 

The danger is somebody will crossbreed some frogs. Then they will sell, or give a couple to a friend. Then, in turn, that friend will give a couple away again to someone who knows nothing about them. They will call the frogs something that they "think" they are but can't remember for sure. In all things eventual... The population gets muddled with no real assurance of what you have. Again, this has happened and can absolutely happen again. 

Hybrids, in and of themselves, are harmless if they are kept _separate_. This is nearly impossible because we, as humans, are flawed. Instant gratification often outweighs critical thinking and rational decision making. 

Someone who wants to buy a _Dendrobates auratus_ should be able to buy what we started with in the hobby.... Not be forced to compromise because of careless curiosity. 

If you want a hybrid, ok. However, you should take it upon yourself to breed it. It should NEVER leave your collection. It MUST remain separate from other frogs. You simply cannot trust other people to do the right thing.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

SmallScaleDan said:


> boondoggle- I'm not researching. I know where I stand. I just want to discuss.
> 
> I have been reading this forum for years, yes. I have been keeping and breeding darts since 2001. I have started posting recently partially because I have high quality plants, frogs, and terraria that I would like to advertise in the classifieds, but I didn't have enough posts.
> 
> ...


You're right Dan, I'm going to start a project right now to hybridize a blue whale and a bottle nose dolphin. Ohh and how about a Golden Eagle and a Goldfinch. 
SO where do you plan to get rid of your hybrids, exotic pets in Vegas? Perhaps Ball Pythons are a better project for you. With them you can create all the different, weird, unnatural, disgusting, color variations you want and no one cares. Dart frogs are a different story entirely. 
Yes Dan, I am very much AGAINST creating any color variations/hybrids that doesn't exist in the wild. That includes all those disgusting ball pythons, parrot cichlids etc. We aren't talking about dogs here, dogs are domesticated. We are talking about wild type dart frogs. Dogs and darts are not analogous. BTW thanks for outing yourself as a hybridiot. I'm glad you chose this topic just for the reason of expanding your post count so you could place a classified ad. Very classy thing to do. Good luck with trying to sell anything now.

Done with this nonsense...and another name goes on the "Pay no mind" list.


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

SmallScaleDan said:


> My question about Rusty's argument is: What does captive breeding have to do with wild populations. Your argument only works if you then release the hybrids you create to the wild. breeding hybrids in captivity doesn't affect wild populations at all.


Dan,

You clearly didn't consider the argument I made earlier. Hybrids DO affect wild populations because it creates an export stress on them. Demand for more wild caught animals to replace those pure lines lost to hybridization will affect wild populations significantly, especially if smuggling is involved. 

It is naive and/or ignorant to think that just because our captive animals can never be returned to the wild that we still don't affect wild populations in any way.


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## SmallScaleDan (Nov 16, 2008)

Wow. I'm now being accused of being a hybridiot.... As I clearly stated, I have never hybridized a frog species in captivity. I have never bought a hybrid frog, and I will never sell a hybrid frog. 

I guess I was wrong. I thought we could discuss this in a civil manor, but if I'm going to be attacked personally for having a discussion. I will withdraw. 

I will end with this:

In the thread on the "agreja" 

one of our members admitted to contacting Exotic Pets Las Vegas... A pet store.... and giving them guff for selling hybrids. This, I believe, is out of a feeling of moral superiority garnered from the contention that it is WRONG to keep and breed hybrids rather than it just being a preference. 

I think that this sort of thing could be avoided if we looked at it with an open mind. Hybridizing is something that we choose not to do, and to seperate ourselves from, not something that makes a person evil. 

Your own highly respected member Ed wrote this, which I feel sums up my argument very simply and eloquently, 

" People have to remember that hybrid frogs wouldn't be a problem if
1) people didn't attempt to identify frogs to morph or population based on how they look visually
2) participated in programs that tracked the lineages of frogs....."

With that, I withdraw. I think this post might make a good cautionary sticky. 

Dan


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

SmallScaleDan said:


> boondoggle- I'm not researching. I know where I stand. I just want to discuss.


Got it. No researching. 



SmallScaleDan said:


> I'm not a newb, and I'm aware this is a contentious subject. I wanted to voice some thoughts I had.


I didn't think you were (In your bio you describe yourself as an expert)



SmallScaleDan said:


> I chose this forum, because I thought the people here were capable of a higher level of discussion. If I just wanted to "see fireworks" I would go to Kingsnake.com and start this thread. I don't need the attention. (My many years of never posting are proof of that)


I can appreciate that. 



SmallScaleDan said:


> I want to have the discussion again in my style, because the big personalities on the forum have always overpowered any reasonable argument for hybridization.
> 
> My contention is that their argument is one of preference and not one of right or wrong. I'm fine with that. I prefer pure lines.
> 
> However, I think it is WRONG to say that someone who prefers hybrids is morally screwed up, or bringing the downfall of the hobby, or causing the sky to fall.


I'm not sure what you mean by the "big personalities" exactly, but the reason I made reference to the previous threads is because these days, most of the only people that will comment/argue vehemently this subject are newer in the hobby. You will get a lot of passion and a bit of dogma, but not decades of experience speaking. Those threads exist, but would take the search function. Playing devils advocate and shooting down moral judgements will boost a thread count, but I don't think it ads much to the discussion.

But you are absolutely correct...the sky won't fall and there is no way to argue a moral RIGHT/WRONG debate over hybrids. I think "bringing the downfall of the hobby" might be overstating it, but the argument has been made pretty conclusively that it much more likely to damage the hobby overall than benefit it.

Anywho, I hope it's a good discussion.


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

My post wasn't meant to be directed at any one person. I did not word it very well, for that I apologize. It was meant as a general statement across multiple hobbies. 

I agree with what Ed said completely. His words were much more efficient than my long-winded post at the bottom of page two....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SmallScaleDan said:


> My question about Rusty's argument is: What does captive breeding have to do with wild populations. Your argument only works if you then release the hybrids you create to the wild. breeding hybrids in captivity doesn't affect wild populations at all.


 
Actually this isn't true.. Your argument is only looking at one side the equation. You are ignoring the following issues 
1) that the captive populations overall aren't being managed to prevent it from going extinct (which would then require new imports to restart it)
2) sufficient space doesn't appeat to be available that hybrids and pure populations can be managed to prevent extinction (again, if pure populations go extinct then it would require new imports)
a) that hybrids would not further drive boom and bust populations (again furthering demand for wild caught frogs) 
3) hybrids would not end up mixed into the established populations rendering them less desirable (again driving demand for wild caught animals). 

Simply harvesting frogs from the wild without any form of conservation funding is documented to be a net negative, so to simply declare that the only potential negative to the frogs in the wild is from releasing hybrids is at best very naive and at worst simple distortion of the facts. 



SmallScaleDan said:


> Don't we do that already? By removing them from the jungle, placing them in artificial environments, feeding them fruit flies, and removing all selection pressure?


On what evidence are you claiming that fruit flies as the diet (or part of the diet) is part of artificial selection? 
The claim that we have removed all selective pressures is incorrect. There are selective pressure one of which is adaption to captivity but again, if people chose to manage the genetics of the captive population, it wouldnn't be an issue. 



SmallScaleDan said:


> Again, I'm not saying we should all start hybridizing. I will not be hybridizing, or buying hybrid frogs. I just want to present a solid, scientific argument, and give the hybridizers the benefit of the doubt.


There have been multiple posts with solid scientific support for the reasons why hybridization in the captive population is a risk... for example if you search outbreeding depression, you will get multiple references including studies done on wild anurans from seperate locations. However it should also be noted that by attempting to ignore other factors such as increased demand for wild caught animals due to percieved desirability of muddied genetics as insufficient to meet the criteria of your position requires scientific proof as to why you can dismiss it. Attempting to dismiss it through simple statement isn't a scientific argument...... 

Some comments

Ed


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## zach77 (Feb 8, 2012)

My question is: WHY HYBRIDIZE AT ALL??

I was enjoying the Ranitomeya and Andinobates poster that I purchased from Chris Miller earlier this year. It features beautiful pictures of species from those 2 genus. There are 100+ amazing frogs on that poster. Granted, some of them may not be possible to add to a collection, but that still leaves many frogs that I could own. I don't know how many total species of PDF there are, but it would nearly impossible to have the money/space to own even the majority of these wonderful creatures. Why can't everyone be happy with the lovely animals that we've been given and quit worrying about creating something new? 
This reminds me of a couple that keeps having kids, even though they don't have the means to do it, but because they're respective reproductive organs work and it sounds like a good idea.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SmallScaleDan said:


> Your own highly respected member Ed wrote this, which I feel sums up my argument very simply and eloquently,
> 
> " People have to remember that hybrid frogs wouldn't be a problem if
> 1) people didn't attempt to identify frogs to morph or population based on how they look visually
> 2) participated in programs that tracked the lineages of frogs....."


This should also be kept in the correct context, which was that attempting to shoot the vendor over his ad was misdirected and before that can/could be done, the hobby should look at themselves before throwing the first brick.. 

Your position is ignoring a lot of science and real world issues... as I noted above, we have outbreeding depression, we have lack of participation to sustain the captive populations (basically because people believe breeding like to like is sufficient), continued demand for wild caught animals (which is going to get worse now that Asia is entering into the demand market), boom and bust cycles resulting in loss of genetics, and how those issues are further impacted if a culture demanding the new color hybrid becomes entrenched. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

As I stated in the other thread on the Agreja "hybrid", it isn't the seller that correctly identifies the frog as an inter-morph cross that should be concerning to us.

On the very same page, another seller is offering frogs identified as Regina D. tinctorius, but clearly look to have features of other morphs. The person that buys these "hybrids" is the one that can negatively affect the hobby.

All the vitrole here only tends to convince "mixers" to mis-identify their crosses as true morphs in order to sell them. I'm not suggesting that it is right to lie, but just look at all the [email protected] you get for telling the truth.

I am a good frogger. I have been in the hobby for 15 years and keep detailed records of my frog collection. I also keep a number of inter-morph crosses for my own pleasure that are not for sale to anyone else. If anyone has a problem with this, I have to say that it is their problem and not mine.

Good luck and happiness to everyone who loves frog enough to have endless fights about them!

Richard.


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## Krenshaw22 (Apr 21, 2011)

Did you ever think that if hybrids took over and muddied all the pure lines of frogs that if something caused extinction in the wild populations the hobbyist could be called back and with breeding efforts bring the wild population back, but that is entirely impossible if we have hybrids running around. Why not enjoy all the endless color variants and patterns with the pure wild bloodlines, plus nothing starts a great conversation when someone asks where the frogs are from in the wild but if its a hybrid you cant so there KEEP THE HYBRIDS OUT THEY RUIN STUFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just look at the reptile hobby its garbage and only way I would get back into it is if I had the wild color variant of any I decided to purchase.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Krenshaw22 said:


> Did you ever think that if hybrids took over and muddied all the pure lines of frogs that if something caused extinction in the wild populations the hobbyist could be called back and with breeding efforts bring the wild population back,


In all probability given what is currently known about novel pathogens, it won't happen as the hobby frogs are never going to be suitable for repatriation... In addition, since the hobby doesn't manage the population to maximize genetic potential, significant captive adaptations have occurred further rendering the captive population as unfit for repatriation. 
This is one of the main drivers for in-situ conservation programs since those programs significantly reduce the potential novel pathogen threats. 

This is a digression from the thread... 

Some comments

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't understand why a 'devil's advocate' would be upset or surprised by contentious replies. Isn't that the point of a 'devil's advocate'?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogface said:


> I don't understand why a 'devil's advocate' would be upset or surprised by contentious replies. Isn't that the point of a 'devil's advocate'?


Good point, Kris. What happened to the open invitation to, "Hit me with your best shot", from the first post?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Good point, Kris. What happened to the open invitation to, "Hit me with your best shot", from the first post?


I doubt the level of vitriol was expected but it should be noted that the level of vitriol in this thread is much less than that seen even several years ago.... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> I doubt the level of vitriol was expected but it should be noted that the level of vitriol in this thread is much less than that seen even several years ago....
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed


I've certainly seen worse. Personally, I just thought the whole approach of "let's make a game of the hottest subject on DB" was...poorly thought out for anyone who's been around for a while. Particularly when it is backed up with the admission of trying to push his post count up, in order to be cleared for the classifieds.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Well, it is a good topic to get your post count up...provided you answer most of the responses. 

Ed


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> I doubt the level of vitriol was expected but it should be noted that the level of vitriol in this thread is much less than that seen even several years ago....
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed


Yes Ed, removing some of the more combustable members of our audience is likely a contributing factor to that.
My response was based on this once a month question, if a subject is removed by 6 months or more brinigng it back up is sometimes good as new info can influence current thinking but this subject matter is rehashed every 2 to 3 weeks these days and for someone to start this thread specifically wanting current opninion is merely someone wanting to see the flame wars start and as far as I am concerned has very little respect for our hobby. 
I say mods close it down so it goes away.


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## SmallScaleDan (Nov 16, 2008)

To be clear, since you all seem to be persistent in making false accusations about me. 

*
I do not keep or breed any hybrids.* 

*
I did not create this post to get my post count up. *


As I stated very clearly, I started posting on this forum after lurking for 5 years or more to get my post count up to be cleared for classifieds. 

I had more than the necessary 25 when I made this post. 

I started this, mistakenly to have a discussion. It was not a game. I'm not interested in fireworks. I'm frankly surprised at how poorly some of you handled it. 

I was wrong. I have apologized. I have withdrawn. Please stop attacking me personally, and making false statements about me. 

I am a good guy to have around, trust me. It would be a real waste to drag my name through the mud and drive me away. 

Dan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

markpulawski said:


> Yes Ed, removing some of the more combustable members of our audience is likely a contributing factor to that.


Hmm.. that is probably true but didn't many of them self-remove themselves? Natural selection in action  

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SmallScaleDan said:


> I am a good guy to have around, trust me. It would be a real waste to drag my name through the mud and drive me away.
> 
> Dan


The thread had/has begun to move towards levity.. Helping that will help defuse any issues... 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

same as it ever was, same as it ever was 

Ok, I believe the OP when he said he just wanted discussion. OP please understand that lots of these folks are just tired of discussing it. Nothing personal. Let's discuss something else. What kind of frogs do you have or want?


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## SmallScaleDan (Nov 16, 2008)

What does a snail say when riding on a turtle's back? 



Answer: WEEEEEEEE



How's that for levity?


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

Deleting my comments as the discussion has apparently dissolved in the time it took me to type my response


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

I'm agreeing with frogface, people are tired of hybrid threads. Although this thread had the potential to be a very enlightening conversation the older (2010 and lower join date) DB community is fed up with hybrid threads. There are 100's if not 1000's of threads about this topic, so one more after all these isn't going to produce any fruitful results. In my opinion before members are registered there should be a section saying "please keep hybrid threads to a minimum and use the search function at the top right corner of your screen for any questions". Now unless any knowledgeable member will pipe in and and give a few reasons to not interbreed morphs/species that are backed up with FACTS, please, lets put this thread to sleep 

D


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## bryandarts (May 16, 2011)

mordoria said:


> i dont want no mutt frogs! :d


absolutely agree!!!!!


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Although the issue has dissolved I have something brief to say.

Dan,

You said that you had a unique perspective on this issue that might open all our minds. With that said, I don't know why you wouldn't start this thread off with that information instead of saying "give me arguments against hybrids so I can refute them." The reason this is a sensitive subject is because it's often discussed and no new information is provided. The same is true in this thread. I haven't seen a single argument from you that I haven't seen elsewhere. If you have new information then go for it, but don't ask us to provide you with places that it will be appropriate to insert said information.

If you're now posting to get your name out there so you can sell your stuff I'd say you're doing yourself a disservice. Threads like these can turn people off to vendors.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

What about using ball pythons as an example, and how wild ones are still being captured to strengthen the mutilated genetics of all the inbred morphs..?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> What about using ball pythons as an example, and how wild ones are still being captured to strengthen the mutilated genetics of all the inbred morphs..?


If you look at the CITES export data, there hasn't been a real drop in the number of ball pythons exported in years.. so the idea that the demand is for ourbreeding due to issues, isn't correct.. Instead, it is because the captive bred hobby has been unable to supply the demand for baby ball pythons.. From what I remember off hand, the price for the bush babies is still basically what it was back in the 1990s.... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendroguy said:


> I'm agreeing with frogface, people are tired of hybrid threads. Although this thread had the potential to be a very enlightening conversation the older (2010 and lower join date) DB community is fed up with hybrid threads.


One of the nice things is that it didn't explode into 20 some pages within hours of the first post... Luckily, these threads seem to be getting shorter and shortere... 

Some comments

Ed


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Dendroguy said:


> There are 100's if not 1000's of threads about this topic


175 to be exact


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

So, I don't get it?.. what's wrong with hybridizing dart frogs?, LOL... 
Peter Keane


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

I'm by far no expert on this topic but as your average frog keeper, I have a few thoughts.

It can go either way. By introducing hybrids into the hobby you will either see the price of hybrids going way down and end up like salamanders where you can buy them for a couple bucks, leading to 'mommy I want this pretty frog' and the number of uneducated owners and frogs that died from ignorance will increase exponentially. While seeing the prices of pure strain frogs sky rocket and the hobby as we know it would rise into the ranks of the elite with weak and/or mislabeled specimens trickling down to inroduction hobbiers who cannot afford outrageous prices and would remove several informative keepers and breeders from our futures. 

Or

You will see the hybrids being sold for top dollar so the elite will see a shiny rainbow gem and add it to their collection then all of the elite's yuppies will start going after frogs driving up the price and down the quality to meet with mass demand. (much like knock off Gucci purses etc.) the pure breds will continue to be exported or smuggled and their prices will drop to compete with the inflated hybrid price and the increase of ignorance faulted deaths will increase in the pure breds adding to the demise of wild populations. 

Not to mention miss-care and deaths can add to a slew of problems we already deal with like diseases and parasites as well as possible introduction to the wild like the python in Florida.

I'm aware I am generalizeing but this tends to be the design if the decline of several things... Paris Hilton and her dog now all of the poorly bred pocket dogs for people to strut about with in their purses... The majority of the population is very materialistic and the frogs will become nothing more than a possesion. 

~Sue


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

boabab95 said:


> 175 to be exact


I was close enough 

D


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

IMO I think the only reason people would hybridize dart frogs is for money. Look at reptiles (ie: leopard geckos, snakes, etc). People just want to come up with the new fad so they can make money. Theres a new color of corn snake out now thats thousands of dollars for the babies.

I myself would like the frogs natural. There's a picture in the Jewels of the Rainforest book of a smaller pumillio trying to mate with a Tinctorius and the post from the author under the pic says "no comment"..LOL I could only imagine what somone would want to charge for that.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

oh wow thats quite the photo there 



JaredJ said:


>


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ya know... you can't blame a guy for trying


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> I myself would like the frogs natural. There's a picture in the Jewels of the Rainforest book of a smaller pumillio trying to mate with a Tinctorius and the post from the author under the pic says "no comment"..LOL I could only imagine what somone would want to charge for that.


Except amplexus of this type doesn't occur in Oophaga so the interpretation that is an attempted mating attempt is incorrect. A correct interpretation is that this part of an attempt by the pumilio for territorial defence via wrestling...... See Biology of Amphibians by Duellman and Trueb (Amazon.com: Biology of Amphibians (9780801847806): William E. Duellman, Linda Trueb: Books) for a discussion on amplexus.... 

Many TFH books do not have adequate fact checking to ensure that the correct information is being supplied to the hobbyist... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

haha, then he picked the wrong frog to wrestle with.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

ed said:


> except amplexus of this type doesn't occur in oophaga so the interpretation that is an attempted mating attempt is incorrect. A correct interpretation is that this part of an attempt by the pumilio for territorial defence via wrestling...... See biology of amphibians by duellman and trueb (amazon.com: Biology of amphibians (9780801847806): William e. Duellman, linda trueb: Books) for a discussion on amplexus....
> 
> Many tfh books do not have adequate fact checking to ensure that the correct information is being supplied to the hobbyist...
> 
> ...




tfh?

<~~~~~~~~~~~>


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> tfh?
> 
> <~~~~~~~~~~~>


The publisher of the book


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

JaredJ said:


> haha, then he picked the wrong frog to wrestle with.


Actually, I've read a few anecdotal accounts on this board and others of pumilio drowning much larger frogs like tincs when housed together.


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

I also know cases where Tinctorius or Auratus were drowned by Pumilios.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

SmallScaleDan said:


> I am a good guy to have around, trust me. It would be a real waste to drag my name through the mud and drive me away.
> 
> Dan


Aren't we over the limit for self important frog flippers from Kansas? Two is two too many!!


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm new so maybe many noons have this perspective?

I'm into preserving habitat and species, its priceless. I've seen these frogs in central and south america, and met a tribe in the amazon that still used them for their arrows. I'm no expert but point is I appreciate them...

Serious conservation minded keepers, zoos and institutions are breeding and attempting to preserve the species. This group of people check DNA, history and many other variables before breeding. Billy bob breeder co., i would assume has 2 frogs with a history but not DNA all the time and those are sold all over the country, are they 100%?

They there is the noob that buys one at PETCO on a whim, the 12 year old that gets a hand full for Christmas..... if these breed and are sold on Craigslist will they pollute the original population? Shouldn't the resposability rest on the institutions and serious breeders to keep these out of their populations? You really can't expect the 12 year old to keep his red and green frogs from getting nasty can you? Or the single parent that bought them and works 80 
hours a week? 

Which is doing more damage?
The noob or the breeder possibly putting 1000's of hybrids out there?

And will or should any of these get into the pure part of the population?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

outofreach said:


> Serious conservation minded keepers, zoos and institutions are breeding and attempting to preserve the species. This group of people check DNA, history and many other variables before breeding.


Since when has DNA analysis been part of the hobbyist breeding programs? With respect to dendrobatids and zoos (at least in the USA) any breeding programs that use DNA analysis (and even for many other breeding programs, the Zoos don't use DNA analysis, they simply track degree of relatedness from the founders)... Zoos tend to only resort to DNA analysis when there is a question about cryptic species or subspecies (such as what was done with the Galapagoes tortoises to identify outcrosses and remove them from the breeding program). Currently the only dendrobatid conservation breeding program (in the USA) (which was out of NAIB) is no longer being emphasized since D. azureus was reduced to being just another color variation of tinctorius. 


Some comments

Ed


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Like I said I'm a noob and making noob assumptions, its a noob perspective.
And as a noob I would assume, maybe incorrectly, that those trying to preserve the species would take extra steps. I am not making an argument, I am nowhere near as knowledgeable as you and probably 95% of people on this board. A noob assumption would tell me those steps would need to be taken to preserve the natural make up. A noob assumption would also tell me that that inbreeding will happen and I would hope that the natural make up of these frogs is preserved elsewhere, with those more experienced. Me personally with the limited knowledge I've gained here will attempt to do my part.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

I don't think the hobbyists are doing much to 'preserve' the species really. I'm sure they are cared well for though but as was pointed out in another thread, it's not like they are breeding in large enough numbers to release in the wild or even could. I think when someone speaks of preservation they would point out UE and what they are doing by purchasing land and captive farming, etc.

The frogs are dissappearing at an alarming rate and to keep their beauty pure means alot to me. I've always wondered why NAIB had exhibits with multiple species in them when everyone frowns on that, but then again they are NAIB.

I don't like the thought of dart frogs being the next designer fad. I mean, look at bearded dragons. I think they are beautiful reptiles as they are, but now there are white ones, pink ones, orange, yellow, etc. None of these probably exist in the wild. hell, the breeders have even gone as far as breeding the texture out of their skin. The new thing now is smooth leatherbacks, transparents, clear nails, etc. They almost don't resemble a real beardie anymore. It's sad.

What would be next with frogs, hypos? Tangerines? patternless?


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

Responsible hobbyists CAN do something to preserve the species. Only buy CB animals. By lessening the demand for WC animals you are in-turn preserving the species.

Species preservation, to the general hobbyist, is not about wild release, it is about supplying current hobbyists and new hobbyists with responsibly CB animals.

Hobbyists should also support organizations that are working on wild species preservation, ie: TWI/ASN, UE, Devin Edmonds conservation group in Madagascar.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Aren't we over the limit for self important frog flippers from Kansas? Two is two too many!!


Calm down there. I know Dan. He is a good guy. I suspect he was just trying to hear opinions on the matter. It has been discussed at length, yes, and folks have directed him to relevant arguments. No need to bite his head off for a question.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Golden State Mantellas said:


> Responsible hobbyists CAN do something to preserve the species. Only buy CB animals. By lessening the demand for WC animals you are in-turn preserving the species.
> 
> Species preservation, to the general hobbyist, is not about wild release, it is about supplying current hobbyists and new hobbyists with responsibly CB animals.
> 
> Hobbyists should also support organizations that are working on wild species preservation, ie: TWI/ASN, UE, Devin Edmonds conservation group in Madagascar.


Yeah but which is the greater evil....illegal importing or habitat destruction?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

JaredJ said:


> I don't think the hobbyists are doing much to 'preserve' the species really. I'm sure they are cared well for though but as was pointed out in another thread, it's not like they are breeding in large enough numbers to release in the wild or even could.


My understanding (feel free to correct me if I state the wrong, Ed) is that even if darts were being bred in large enough numbers to release in the wild, the populations of frogs we have in our glass boxes aren't suitable for a reintroduction project.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Especially if there's no wild left to release them into.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SmackoftheGods said:


> My understanding (feel free to correct me if I state the wrong, Ed) is that even if darts were being bred in large enough numbers to release in the wild, the populations of frogs we have in our glass boxes aren't suitable for a reintroduction project.


Correct.... for multiple reasons ranging from exposure to novel pathogens, unknown locality origins, as well as founder effect, genetic drift, directed selection........ 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Yeah but which is the greater evil....illegal importing or habitat destruction?


 
They are equally the same from the standpoint of the viability of the populations of the frogs. Illegal importing more properly called smuggling isn't sustainable and can lead the extinction of a population or species as can habitat destruction.... In fact the fewer there are of an animal the greater the value placed on it so smugglers go through greater lenghts to get it.. 

This is nothing more than an attempt to spin it to justify having illegally collected frogs in a person's collection.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Especially if there's no wild left to release them into.


As it currently stands with how people manage the captive populations of frogs, it doesn't matter if there is habitat left for the frogs or not... They are unsuitable for repatriation for all of the reasons I noted above.... 

As it currently stands in the hobby, very few people engage in attempting to sustainably maintain the captive populations and many people percieve wild caught frogs or frogs that are more closely descended (fewer filial generations) to wild caught frogs as more desirable... further driving imports and smuggling... 

We can even see this in how the hobby percieves the filial number system... many people believe that a frog with a low F number (example F2 or F1) are more closely descended to wild caught frogs which is incorrect. A filial number is the number of generations from a specific breeding (I had a question pm'ed to me recently asking about how to lable a cross between two different F numbers (specifically


> if an F2 and F4 pairs breed, the offspring would be consider F3 or F5?


to which the correct answer is it would be F1 since it is the first generation from that cross) and nothing more....... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

outofreach said:


> Like I said I'm a noob and making noob assumptions, its a noob perspective.
> And as a noob I would assume, maybe incorrectly, that those trying to preserve the species would take extra steps. I am not making an argument, I am nowhere near as knowledgeable as you and probably 95% of people on this board. A noob assumption would tell me those steps would need to be taken to preserve the natural make up. A noob assumption would also tell me that that inbreeding will happen and I would hope that the natural make up of these frogs is preserved elsewhere, with those more experienced. Me personally with the limited knowledge I've gained here will attempt to do my part.


For a new person, your making some very specific assumptions and generalizations which you are not stating as questions but as facts... this is why I flagged what you are writing.. and you repeat the supposed questions as statments in your response.... 

In general, DNA analysis isn't needed for a population to be managed for the long term in the hobby. So no, those steps are not necessary to preserve the natural make up of the frogs. Inbreeding isn't inevitable if the population is managed for genetic diversity.. 

Unless you are going to attempt to manage the populations for genetic diversity and not participate in directed selection (breeding the "prettiest", "fine spotted", "bluest" etc together instead of looking for the most distantly related (and participating with others who are tracking thier frogs genealogy) then your not managing the population in a sustainable manner.... 

Some comments

Ed


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

SmallScaleDan said:


> I have been reading this forum for years, yes. I have been keeping and breeding darts since 2001. I have started posting recently partially because I have high quality plants, frogs, and terraria that I would like to advertise in the classifieds, but I didn't have enough posts.
> Dan


You've been breeding darts since 2001? I've been to numerous shows in the area where Emerald Exotics have had a booth, and I've never seen dart frogs on your table. So, you bred but didn't sell at any of the shows you vended? It's funny, huh? You suddenly show up here to sell for the first time since being a member for a few years? You have ads for frog breeding set ups on craigslist for every area on this side of Kansas.(http://ksu.craigslist.org/pet/3233309685.html)? Curious. After all this time breeding, you just decided now was the time to start selling froglets and equipment? Rather odd.


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## SmallScaleDan (Nov 16, 2008)

This post keeps hanging around, so I thought I would drop in on it, and I'm so sorry to see that the personal attacks on me continue.  I really like this forum, and I'm so sorry to see this sort of behaviour on here. 


To answer your question Jason: (By the way I looked at your site, and you have some nice frogs and setups, and you're very close by! Junction City is just a hop skip and a jump away.) 

I have only recently begun working for Emerald Exotics caring for their collection. I was hired for this position because of my vast experience keeping and breeding dart frogs, hognose, geckos, and designing terraria. 

These are the areas that Emerald Exotics would like to focus on moving forward, so they hired a person with that sort of experience. They have not sold a lot of frogs prior to this year, but they will be producing and selling a lot more moving forward now that they have me on board. I have worked for them officially for just over a month. I have helped out at their tables in the past as a friend. Were you at the Manhattan show? Did you stop by and say hi? I talked with some other dart people there, but I don't recall talking to you... If my experience and knowledge are in question, talking with me would be a quick way to test that out. 

On the subject of the craig's list ads. We decided to move out a bunch of old tanks and terraria to make room for new things, and our new designs. We posted all of those on craig's list at very low prices. We don't sell animals on Craig's list. Just tanks. Those tanks are just old, used tanks that Emerald Exotics has used in the past for gecko breeding, etc. Our new designs are quite different. Our facility has limited space, so we needed to make room for the creation of our new tanks. The rack of ten gallon tanks was purchased from a local frog breeder who was heading out of the country. they were in disrepair and dirty, so we cleaned them up, planted them, seeded them with springtails, and put them up for sale. They are still for sale, although, we're thinking of just keeping them for thumbnail breeding tanks now. Is there a problem with selling these racks? 

Your original message seems to imply that we have never sold terraria before. That is false. Emerald Exotics, and myself separately have sold terraria for frogs, geckos, chameleons, and snakes at every reptile show we have attended for at least the last five years. We have designed, and are designing, cages for nature centers and reptile zoo's. Moving forward, I'm sure you'll see a lot more of that from us. 

I'm not sure why the personal attacks continue. I bowed out of the conversation. I apologized for bringing it up. 
I am feeling harassed by some of the people on this board, and I think that harassment is misplaced. I just want to participate, be educated, help to educate, and provide high quality frogs, plants and products to the members of this board. 

Has anyone ever received a sub-standard animal, plant or piece of equipment from me or Emerald Exotics? Do you have any tangible evidence that we aren't what we say we are? Any frog person who would like to come tour our facility is welcome to. 

I am truly sorry for starting this thread. It was a mistake. I will only ask this one more time: Please stop attacking me and the company for which I work. Please judge me by the quality of my frogs, plants, and terraria, and not by my hypothetical discussion of hybrids. 

Dan


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

I'm sorry people continue to attack you and your company, if it makes any difference from what I have read you seem to be a respectable fellow. If you can look past the more rude people here Dendroboard is quite q nice community

D


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## ICS523 (Mar 10, 2012)

yeah dendroboard was so helpful to me. so it kind of bugs me when I see rudeness. for some reason people go bad when there's more than one species living together.


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## SmallScaleDan (Nov 16, 2008)

It's been good to me too! I've learned so much here over the years. It is a great tool, and a good way to waste a couple of hours, but when people don't follow the user agreement about libel and harassment, it starts to lose its luster. 

dan


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

I would like to volunteer to be the punching bag.

If at anytime you want to call someone a f%$$&%, as+(#%, $%$ or anything else for that matter please direct at me. A%$muncher, f$%# stick, fat, ugly, stupid work as well.

I'll make it easy 

Could I get some advice on getting my leucs and yellowbacks to breed? I currently have 12 of them in a 5 gallon tank with a screen top. I'm keeping the humidity at about 37% and the temperature right at 84 degrees. They seem kind of skinny but I am feeding them pinky mice almost weekly. Right now the tank is a gravel bottom with nothing else in it, but I plan on pulling weeds from the yard and trying to get them to grow in there. I was thinking of using Velcro to stick them together to try and force the mood. 

Thanks in advance for any help


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

JaredJ said:


> *<snip>*
> 
> I don't like the thought of dart frogs being the next designer fad. I mean, look at bearded dragons. I think they are beautiful reptiles as they are, but now there are white ones, pink ones, orange, yellow, etc. None of these probably exist in the wild. hell, the breeders have even gone as far as breeding the texture out of their skin. The new thing now is smooth leatherbacks, transparents, clear nails, etc. They almost don't resemble a real beardie anymore. It's sad.
> 
> What would be next with frogs, hypos? Tangerines? patternless?


I am fairly new to frogs and other amphibians. However, from what I can see from digging around.... This is already happening. 

I am not knowledgable enough to justify, or refute, breeding for a specific trait. I would just like to see people know as much as possible about what they are breeding before they decide to breed it. And even more importantly..... Before they decide to distribute the offspring.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

You know, I think you make some sense. But why stop at frogs? Hybridizing species that have large genetic differences can cause developmental problems such as infertility and abnormal growth. So it makes much more sense to hybridize species with greater genetic similarity. Therefore, I propose making a chimp-human hybrid, since we have ~98% genetic similarity. Now THAT would be a cool animal!


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

hypostatic said:


> You know, I think you make some sense. But why stop at frogs? Hybridizing species that have large genetic differences can cause developmental problems such as infertility and abnormal growth. So it makes much more sense to hybridize species with greater genetic similarity. Therefore, I propose making a chimp-human hybrid, since we have ~98% genetic similarity. Now THAT would be a cool animal!


Have you ever been to Walmart? 








JK..... I go to there quite often myself..


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> They are equally the same from the standpoint of the viability of the populations of the frogs. Illegal importing more properly called smuggling isn't sustainable and can lead the extinction of a population or species as can habitat destruction.... In fact the fewer there are of an animal the greater the value placed on it so smugglers go through greater lenghts to get it..
> 
> This is nothing more than an attempt to spin it to justify having illegally collected frogs in a person's collection....
> 
> Ed


Yeah...ive always wondered how those that have what would be considered illegal frogs justify their keping them? Are they trying to supply the hobby or just fellow froggers? Or is it just bragging rights?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Yeah...ive always wondered how those that have what would be considered illegal frogs justify their keping them? Are they trying to supply the hobby or just fellow froggers? Or is it just bragging rights?


Since they are smuggled, you can't just start breeding and selling the offspring since USF&W does monitor sites and the penalities for the Lacy Act can be significant... see for example http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/articles/springsteen_lacey.pdf.. all of this applies to frogs as well.. And since rare frogs can easily be worth $350 or more each, the higher level of penalites can be triggered... 

Those who want the smuggled animals, typically want them for the status of having rare frogs (among friends typically), and/or pokeman syndrome, and/or are using the justification/rationalization you mentioned above, which is the idea that they are "saving" them from extinction (which is actually the opposite since a smuggled/collected frog is dead to the wild population)... 

Some comments

Ed


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Just spent a few minutes cleaning this thread up from reported off-topic/personal posts... _PLEASE_ keep it on topic. It's a difficult topic to discuss, but we have to keep things civil.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Is there really that much of a demand for WC species that are common in the hobby? Is it just for new genes?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Is there really that much of a demand for WC species that are common in the hobby? Is it just for new genes?


anytime a new morph or population becomes available there is a rush of people to get them.... In addition, if you search for poor quality frogs, you should find several threads discussing how wild caught frogs look better and are larger than captive frogs when the problem is likely due to how people keep the frogs....

Ed


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

JaredJ said:


> Is there really that much of a demand for WC species that are common in the hobby? Is it just for new genes?


I often see people selling WC frogs. It seems especially common with pumilio.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Yeah I see that with pums but I believe that terribilis is illegal to export now. What about auratus etc? I've seen that in Hawaii, auratus are in everyones backyard. They are considered pests now because they breed so well there.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Yeah I see that with pums but I believe that terribilis is illegal to export now. What about auratus etc? I've seen that in Hawaii, auratus are in everyones backyard. They are considered pests now because they breed so well there.


Terribilis have never (to my knowledge) been legally exported from Colombia. The animals in the hobby are descended from frogs exported from Europe. The EU animals were either from confiscated animals that were given to an institution and the offspring passed back to the hobby or animals that were laundered as legal. 

New animals are still imported from the EU from time to time.. 

Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> Terribilis have never (to my knowledge) been legally exported from Colombia. The animals in the hobby are descended from frogs exported from Europe. The EU animals were either from confiscated animals that were given to an institution and the offspring passed back to the hobby or animals that were laundered as legal.
> 
> New animals are still imported from the EU from time to time..
> 
> Ed


Oh wow, I thought they were legal at one time. Well crap, then I wonder how many frogs were illegal back then. Probably alot.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Oh wow, I thought they were legal at one time. Well crap, then I wonder how many frogs were illegal back then. Probably alot.


 
Some of the frogs, that are listed as never having been exported legally may be legal through a technicality. In Europe, frogs confiscated from smugglers can be donated to a zoo or in some cases, hobbyists. The adults are not supposed to be sold or traded but the offspring may be regarded as legal by the confiscating country. In those cases, legal CITES paperwork can be issued for those frogs, allowing for them to be exported to other countries. Now, not all countries will accept that paperwork as legal, and can refuse entry or even confiscate the frogs. Terribilis were one of the ones that were confiscated and then released to the hobby with paperwork allowing them to be transacted between other countries. There are frogs that not all countries accept as legal, for example Excidobates mysteriosus, which not all countries in the EU consider legal neither does the United States (this is a critically endangered frog with only three known populations...). One of the frogs we see in the US, is also considered illegal but is also in a grey area are the Brazil nut dart frogs, Adelphobates castenoticus. This frog was legally brought in on a scientific research permit prohibiting release of the frogs to any other institution or pet trade. The frogs were bred by the researching facility and some offspring were transferred to the Audoban Zoo, and off spring from there were sent into the pet trade. USF&W attempted to round up the way ward frogs and did recover a number of them but some have remained circulating in the hobby. If you ask USF&W, they will flat out tell you that possession of them is illegal but have yet to confiscate any further frogs. I suspect that if you get in trouble for something else and have them in your possession, they would be added to the charges. The reason for this is that under the Lacy Act, not only are the original animals or plants illegal, but all of the subsequent offspring are illegal and each interstate transaction simply re-enforces the illegality. 

Some comments

Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> Some of the frogs, that are listed as never having been exported legally may be legal through a technicality. In Europe, frogs confiscated from smugglers can be donated to a zoo or in some cases, hobbyists. The adults are not supposed to be sold or traded but the offspring may be regarded as legal by the confiscating country. In those cases, legal CITES paperwork can be issued for those frogs, allowing for them to be exported to other countries. Now, not all countries will accept that paperwork as legal, and can refuse entry or even confiscate the frogs. Terribilis were one of the ones that were confiscated and then released to the hobby with paperwork allowing them to be transacted between other countries. There are frogs that not all countries accept as legal, for example Excidobates mysteriosus, which not all countries in the EU consider legal neither does the United States (this is a critically endangered frog with only three known populations...). One of the frogs we see in the US, is also considered illegal but is also in a grey area are the Brazil nut dart frogs, Adelphobates castenoticus. This frog was legally brought in on a scientific research permit prohibiting release of the frogs to any other institution or pet trade. The frogs were bred by the researching facility and some offspring were transferred to the Audoban Zoo, and off spring from there were sent into the pet trade. USF&W attempted to round up the way ward frogs and did recover a number of them but some have remained circulating in the hobby. If you ask USF&W, they will flat out tell you that possession of them is illegal but have yet to confiscate any further frogs. I suspect that if you get in trouble for something else and have them in your possession, they would be added to the charges. The reason for this is that under the Lacy Act, not only are the original animals or plants illegal, but all of the subsequent offspring are illegal and each interstate transaction simply re-enforces the illegality.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Wow. Then how the heck do those people that have mysteriosus in the US get them?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Quietly ....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Wow. Then how the heck do those people that have mysteriosus in the US get them?


People who are friends enough of someone who has them. They are apparently relatively easy to breed there is just a small market of where they can go... 

Ed


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

JaredJ said:


> Wow. Then how the heck do those people that have mysteriosus in the US get them?


There is a phrase called, "brown boxing." Some people will take the risk and have illegal animals shipped directly to them. They don't have the proper permits, it is completely illegal, and some people have had charges brought against them for it. This method is also unfortunate because many times, many animals are lost during the trip. 

However, some animals are worth a lot of money to the right people. To some, it is worth the risk. I have seen ads posted by a few in other hobbies for animals that they had absolutely no permits for importing. 

Crazy and foolish, but it happens.


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

Let's be honest.

This is how a lot of different frogs got introduced into this hobby and are thriving now in captive.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

PumilioTurkey said:


> Let's be honest.
> 
> This is how a lot of different frogs got introduced into this hobby and are thriving now in captive.


Thriving or not that isn't really the point.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> Thriving or not that isn't really the point.


And we can even debate the "thriving" point since if they were thriving they wouldn't need more frogs to supply genetic variation due to bad population management on the part of the hobby.... 

The whole thriving thing is often mentioned as part of the whole "conservation through captive breeding argument" which is badly flawed... 

Some comments

Ed


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

by thriving I meant species like Mysteriosus or Terribilis. They are easily available in Europe by now.


Didnt mean that from a conservation viewpoint, since in my opinion this hobby is about keeping nice-looking frogs and not about conserving them.
That is just an argument for getting new frogs in.


But this hobby did start with taking wild frogs out of their habitat into a glass cage. So smuggling and keeping exotic animals cannot be separated even if you dont like that.


And in my opinion breeding captive frogs won't have any big impact on smuggling new frogs or "importing them from farms". People will always look for new morphs or will assume that wc frogs are bigger and better.



but this is derailing the actual topic now.


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