# Substrate question



## RicknMO (Aug 11, 2016)

Hey Everyone. Newbie here. I am in the process of setting up my first vivarium for dart frogs. I was at the local nursery and found.......BushDoctor coconut coir potting soil. I was wondering if it was safe for my dart frogs.


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## Andy27012 (Jul 23, 2016)

Some one with more experience will chime in, but I'm going to say no due to the fact it looks to have nitrogen and phosphate added to the mix (fertilizer) which is fine for a terrarium but neither safe nor needed for a vivarium with frogs.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

RicknMO said:


> Hey Everyone. Newbie here. I am in the process of setting up my first vivarium for dart frogs. I was at the local nursery and found.......BushDoctor coconut coir potting soil. I was wondering if it was safe for my dart frogs.


Seems like it has added chemicals I wouldn't use it. Besides coco coir is terrible substrate. It stays pretty soggy and doesn't drain very well. 
I would look into getting some ABG mix or some sort of dart frog substrate from a vendor.


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## Xylem (Jan 10, 2015)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Seems like it has added chemicals I wouldn't use it. Besides coco coir is terrible substrate. It stays pretty soggy and doesn't drain very well.
> I would look into getting some ABG mix or some sort of dart frog substrate from a vendor.


+1 to abg.... pricey, but works great. my god I've never seen plants grow so fast, lol


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Xylem said:


> +1 to abg.... pricey, but works great. my god I've never seen plants grow so fast, lol


ABG mixes aren't expensive by any means $5 per gallon bag isn't that much

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## Xylem (Jan 10, 2015)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> ABG mixes aren't expensive by any means $5 per gallon bag isn't that much
> 
> Sent from my Samsung GALAXY Note4 using Tapatalk


plus $8 shipping. Which makes it pricey if you only have the space/time to do a smaller tank, and only need 1-2 bags.

And it's REALLY expensive if you happen to want to buy it with an Amazon gift card. 

https://www.amazon.com/Joshs-Frogs-..._3?ie=UTF8&qid=1470952289&sr=8-3&keywords=abg


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Xylem said:


> plus $8 shipping. Which makes it pricey if you only have the space/time to do a smaller tank, and only need 1-2 bags.
> 
> And it's REALLY expensive if you happen to want to buy it with an Amazon gift card.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Joshs-Frogs-..._3?ie=UTF8&qid=1470952289&sr=8-3&keywords=abg


It's expensive because you're going through Amazon. I'm not even sure why they sell it for $15.99 when it's only $7.99 on the website. Besides their ABG mix is not real ABG mix. They use growstones instead of tree fern fiber. That formula was not developed by Atlanta Botanical Gardens so therefore it is not a ABG mix.
Glassbox tropicals and New England herpetoculture have true ABG mix for sale. 

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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

If you're concerned about prices New England herpetoculture seems to be the cheapest

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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Also just so you know it doesn't take $8 to ship one bag of ABG so if you're buying numerous backs at that price of $15.99 you're overpaying in the long run

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## RicknMO (Aug 11, 2016)

Thanks everyone. One of the ingredients is Bat guano. So I am guessing that is bad for frogs.


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## Xylem (Jan 10, 2015)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> It's expensive because you're going through Amazon. I'm not even sure why they sell it for $15.99 when it's only $7.99 on the website. Besides their ABG mix is not real ABG mix. They use growstones instead of tree fern fiber. That formula was not developed by Atlanta Botanical Gardens so therefore it is not a ABG mix.
> Glassbox tropicals and New England herpetoculture have true ABG mix for sale.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung GALAXY Note4 using Tapatalk


That's Josh's frogs on Amazon.

I buy mine from the Josh's frogs website. Which even there, is $8 shipping.

[edit] Checked josh's frogs, order total for a single bag of ABG is 17.57. $8 for the bag, $9.58 shipping to Arizona.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Xylem said:


> That's Josh's frogs on Amazon.
> 
> I buy mine from the Josh's frogs website. Which even there, is $8 shipping.
> 
> [edit] Checked josh's frogs, order total for a single bag of ABG is 17.57. $8 for the bag, $9.58 shipping to Arizona.


Looks like everybody's shipping is going up.

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## DunderBear (Feb 5, 2016)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Looks like everybody's shipping is going up.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung GALAXY Note4 using Tapatalk




You guys think you have it rough haha. In Canada ABG mix is 15$ per gallon and the cheapest shipping for one bag is 15$.


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## Andy27012 (Jul 23, 2016)

If you know a couple of other people in your area who need substrate you can make your own for not too bad, but to do this you have to make it in much larger quantities then one tank would need and split the cost across three or four people at least.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Or you could use a clay substrate, with many of the ingredients purchased from local pottery supply sources or you could go with Turface which can be purchased from a John Deere supplier (or a similar product). Both of these can enable the frogs to uptake calcium from the substrates as well as being pretty permanent as a substrate. 

In addition to fertilizers you want to watch for the words "wetting agent" which helps the material hydrate for planting but shouldn't be used in with amphibians. The addition of manure or guano should also rule it out. If you want an inexpensive coco fiber look for the compressed blocks sold for animal use. The only problems with the compressed blocks is that they can have a high salt content but this can be corrected by rehydrating it with RO/DI water and then flooding it and pouring off the excess water several times. 

some comments 

Ed


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## austin (Dec 6, 2013)

For some reason I was under the impression that the frogs could not get calcium from turface? I thought some of the other clay substrates being used allow dietary calcium to be consumed via contacting micro fauna like springtails before the frogs eat them. Apparently I am missing something. Ed, can you please give me a quick explanation and bring me up to speed on this?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

austin said:


> For some reason I was under the impression that the frogs could not get calcium from turface? I thought some of the other clay substrates being used allow dietary calcium to be consumed via contacting micro fauna like springtails before the frogs eat them. Apparently I am missing something. Ed, can you please give me a quick explanation and bring me up to speed on this?


It has a high cation exchange ability and Turface MVP has mobile calcium ions that are released as it exchanges for other cations. The part you are missing is that the frogs can actively uptake calcium from substrates via their drinking patch if the calcium ions are mobile. 
This is why soaking frogs in a solution of 2.2% calcium gluconate/glubionate in conjunction with D3 nutritional support is used to treat MBD. 

some comments 

Ed


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