# Thinking about going big...



## Mitch

I'm thinking about selling off most of what I have on the frog rack (tanks + frogs and all) in order to build a *big* vivarium. I'm just considering this now so don't get all upset haha. The viv would be a corner tank and I'd completely "pimp" it out... everything would be automated and such. I'm thinking about the pros and cons right now of this and I'd like your opinions. 
Pros:
-Much less care (from 4ish hours a week to less than one)
-A large vivarium has a nice impact on the room 
-I can do more with this viv than any other I have ever built
-I can do everything right this time with more experience under my belt than before
-It would be friggin' awesome... just like Grimm's Peninsula 
Cons:
-I won't be able to keep all my species of frogs 
-It could get boring only having one viv

Also, since I keep 5 species now I'd obviously have to sell some off before I do this. I'm thinking of doing some "responsible" mixing since this viv would be 100+ gallons... maybe, say, leucs+vents, or azureus+imi's... something along those lines. Not sure about that yet. I just don't want to get rid of all my frogs! 

Please help me out here!


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## frogfreak

Mitch said:


> I'm thinking of doing some "responsible" mixing since this viv would be 100+ gallons...


I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but what makes you think that a 100g tank is *big*? I just finished a 75g for a 2.1 group of Tincs. It doesn't look all that big to me. I'd go bigger if I could.


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## CVB

When I think big, I think something along the lines of 24 to 36" tall, 72" wide, 24 to 48" deep sitting two or three feet off the floor with plumbing in a cabinet under and routed behind (or through the floor of) the tank. That is in the neighborhood of 300 to 500 gallons, depending on configuration, and gives you an enormous amount of floor space.

For a room corner you could pretty easily get something triangular or trapezoidal in footprint so it draws view from the center of the room rather than parallel to the walls. Could be very nice, particularly if you combined an enormous amount of floor space with a good vertical element.

I feel like tanks over about 45x17x20 (Baker's Rack full length tank) should be approached from the assumption that they are for displaying the contents in a permanent fashion. Large tanks are not easy to move, place on racks, or make major design changes after initially established. It is wise to plan very carefully, use high quality components, and make every part of the tank accessible in some way, because inevitably any piece you cannot reach will break and ruin your work. That said, large tanks over unparalleled planting flexibility, since you can introduce species impractical for smaller tanks, and you can create varying conditions throughout the tank, such as large shadowed canopies, landscaping tiers, natural sloping, and other things that are just beautiful when done well.

If you're not one to get bored with a single species, or you have a couple species that are safe for cohabitation, it could make an excellent way to share your hobby with visitors; the humid, bug culture-packed, narrow-walkway frog room of many hobbyists is pretty intimidating to unfamiliar eyes.


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## GRIMM

Do it! Just make sure to keep a small tank or two just incase you buy more plants or need to move frogs for a while. Just be aware of the costs. If you are a perfectionist with ocd tendencies like me, the price gets up there pretty quick $$$

A lot of the larger european vivs seem to mix leucs with tri-colours. Im thinking it has to do with both having nice calls, being bold, and not being able to interbreed. Im not totally sure of all the reasons why this is the mixing "norm" so additional research could be a good idea. I just wouldnt flaunt it here to avoid the typical arguments.


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## Mitch

frogfreak said:


> I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but what makes you think that a 100g tank is *big*? I just finished a 75g for a 2.1 group of Tincs. It doesn't look all that big to me. I'd go bigger if I could.


Never said it'd be 100g. I said over 100g, and that could be up to 300g. Depends on what I can fit in that corner. It can be the size of a bakers rack for all I know. I'm just thinking here... no real plans yet. 



CVB said:


> When I think big, I think something along the lines of 24 to 36" tall, 72" wide, 24 to 48" deep sitting two or three feet off the floor with plumbing in a cabinet under and routed behind (or through the floor of) the tank. That is in the neighborhood of 300 to 500 gallons, depending on configuration, and gives you an enormous amount of floor space.
> 
> For a room corner you could pretty easily get something triangular or trapezoidal in footprint so it draws view from the center of the room rather than parallel to the walls. Could be very nice, particularly if you combined an enormous amount of floor space with a good vertical element.
> 
> I feel like tanks over about 45x17x20 (Baker's Rack full length tank) should be approached from the assumption that they are for displaying the contents in a permanent fashion. Large tanks are not easy to move, place on racks, or make major design changes after initially established. It is wise to plan very carefully, use high quality components, and make every part of the tank accessible in some way, because inevitably any piece you cannot reach will break and ruin your work. That said, large tanks over unparalleled planting flexibility, since you can introduce species impractical for smaller tanks, and you can create varying conditions throughout the tank, such as large shadowed canopies, landscaping tiers, natural sloping, and other things that are just beautiful when done well.
> 
> If you're not one to get bored with a single species, or you have a couple species that are safe for cohabitation, it could make an excellent way to share your hobby with visitors; the humid, bug culture-packed, narrow-walkway frog room of many hobbyists is pretty intimidating to unfamiliar eyes.


Thanks for the advice! I'll take that all into consideration. 



GRIMM said:


> Do it! Just make sure to keep a small tank or two just incase you buy more plants or need to move frogs for a while. Just be aware of the costs. If you are a perfectionist with ocd tendencies like me, the price gets up there pretty quick $$$
> 
> A lot of the larger european vivs seem to mix leucs with tri-colours. Im thinking it has to do with both having nice calls, being bold, and not being able to interbreed. Im not totally sure of all the reasons why this is the mixing "norm" so additional research could be a good idea. I just wouldnt flaunt it here to avoid the typical arguments.


I have vivarium OCD too. I like the euro-mixing concept, but I have much more research to do!


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## frogfreak

Mitch said:


> Never said it'd be 100g. I said over 100g, and that could be up to 300g. Depends on what I can fit in that corner. It can be the size of a bakers rack for all I know. I'm just thinking here... no real plans yet.


DOH! Sorry Mitch, I should learn to read better.


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## Mitch

frogfreak said:


> DOH! Sorry Mitch, I should learn to read better.


It's okay, I do it all the time!


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## vivlover10

If I did it I would probably get bored after a month and be like " next tank!" and relize that I can't build anymore. But go a head if your not like me. Plus for me I need more than one speices! The addiction!!!!! I don't no anyone ( forget about the people that left the hobby unvoulintaraly sp.) that got away from the addiction! 

I would stick to the rack but that's me.


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## PeanutbuttER

I think a single large display viv would be awesome. That's on my list of "someday" things to do. I agree though that one viv could be hard, but it sounds like you've come to terms with the addiction


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## fieldnstream

I recently cut my collection down considerably, from around 25 tanks (I know not that many compared to lots of people on here) to just 2. I have to say that doing so has allowed me to focus a lot more on what I have kept and feels more rewarding. Instead of just glancing at each tank every day, I spend much more time really getting to know the frogs that I still have. Having one awesome tank to focus on might just be an incredible experience. Good luck with whatever you decide. Full disclosure: I am hoping you decide to build a killer huge tank for me to drool over.


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## Dendroguy

I,used to have a big corner tank...untill the doorknob happened
Anywho,I'm thing about a largeish 3*3 foot cube tank,with a fairly large,fast moving stream in the middle separating my group of P.aurotaenias from a group of vents or imis,I think this would be a real learning experience for you,and if you posted a construction journal,the whole Dendroboard community


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## dravenxavier

I think it sounds awesome. Not sure if you're a plant guy, but put plenty of branches/vines across a big tank, and you can shift your collecting tendencies from frogs to something like miniature orchids. Given enough surfaces in a really large tank, if you're selective with your orchids, you can take forever just adding to it. At least, that's probably what I'd end up doing... haha.


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## Mitch

vivlover10 said:


> If I did it I would probably get bored after a month and be like " next tank!" and relize that I can't build anymore. But go a head if your not like me. Plus for me I need more than one speices! The addiction!!!!! I don't no anyone ( forget about the people that left the hobby unvoulintaraly sp.) that got away from the addiction!
> 
> I would stick to the rack but that's me.


I don't think I'd get bored! If the tank is large enough there'd always be something cool to look at.



PeanutbuttER said:


> I think a single large display viv would be awesome. That's on my list of "someday" things to do. I agree though that one viv could be hard, but it sounds like you've come to terms with the addiction


Yup, the addiction has been in full force for a while now and I've learned to deal with it. 



fieldnstream said:


> I recently cut my collection down considerably, from around 25 tanks (I know not that many compared to lots of people on here) to just 2. I have to say that doing so has allowed me to focus a lot more on what I have kept and feels more rewarding. Instead of just glancing at each tank every day, I spend much more time really getting to know the frogs that I still have. Having one awesome tank to focus on might just be an incredible experience. Good luck with whatever you decide. Full disclosure: I am hoping you decide to build a killer huge tank for me to drool over.


Yea, it was a much different experience when I had only 1 tank compared to my 5 now. I'm liking this idea more and more!


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## Mitch

Dendroguy said:


> I,used to have a big corner tank...untill the doorknob happened
> Anywho,I'm thing about a largeish 3*3 foot cube tank,with a fairly large,fast moving stream in the middle separating my group of P.aurotaenias from a group of vents or imis,I think this would be a real learning experience for you,and if you posted a construction journal,the whole Dendroboard community


Sorry about the doorknob incident. This tank will be nowhere near the door . I'd love to have a big thread for all of DB to see!



dravenxavier said:


> I think it sounds awesome. Not sure if you're a plant guy, but put plenty of branches/vines across a big tank, and you can shift your collecting tendencies from frogs to something like miniature orchids. Given enough surfaces in a really large tank, if you're selective with your orchids, you can take forever just adding to it. At least, that's probably what I'd end up doing... haha.


Oh, I'm a big plant geek!  I just don't have enough room to keep buying plants now. But with this tank... I would!


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## Ross

I say go for it.

Focusing on one huge project can leave you with something truly awe-inspiring.

This is one of my favorite corner displays.


















A vivarium half the size of that one could have serious potential. 

The topic has been discussed on DB before, but the American hobby seems to be lacking in large "Euro-style" displays; the emphasis stateside tends to be on collecting a variety of different species in single-species enclosures, which typically means compromising on living space for frogs.

If you do decide to take this route I doubt you will regret it. Just make damn sure you do it right the first time.


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## EvilLost

Mitch said:


> I'm thinking about selling off most of what I have on the frog rack (tanks + frogs and all) in order to build a *big* vivarium. I'm just considering this now so don't get all upset haha. The viv would be a corner tank and I'd completely "pimp" it out... everything would be automated and such. I'm thinking about the pros and cons right now of this and I'd like your opinions.
> Pros:
> -Much less care (from 4ish hours a week to less than one)
> -A large vivarium has a nice impact on the room
> -I can do more with this viv than any other I have ever built
> -I can do everything right this time with more experience under my belt than before
> -It would be friggin' awesome... just like Grimm's Peninsula
> Cons:
> -I won't be able to keep all my species of frogs
> -It could get boring only having one viv
> 
> Also, since I keep 5 species now I'd obviously have to sell some off before I do this. I'm thinking of doing some "responsible" mixing since this viv would be 100+ gallons... maybe, say, leucs+vents, or azureus+imi's... something along those lines. Not sure about that yet. I just don't want to get rid of all my frogs!
> 
> Please help me out here!



I'm with you on everything you said, except the "big" part....100Gal is not very big at all...

when you say big I picture something with dimensions in the 4-6'++ range


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## SmackoftheGods

Mitch said:


> I'm thinking of doing some "responsible" mixing since this viv would be 100+ gallons...


I'm going to echo. 100 gallons isn't _that_ big. I know you qualified later that it _could_ be bigger, but "100+" implies that it _may_ be 100 gallons and it _may_ be bigger.

Next, "'responsible' mixing?" Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you've been a hobbyist for about a year. I understand that people throw out vague descriptions of what's required for a truly responsible mixed viv like "ledges," "visual barriers," "niches," et cetera, but with what I understand to be your limited experience as a dart frogger, what makes you think you've developed the necessary skills to create a responsible mixed tank? I understand this thread has avoided the "flame war" thus far because the word "responsible" was used, but I think the phrase "responsible mixing" deserves to be evaluated before presenting an opinion.

All that said, I am a strong advocate of taking better care of a few species than mediocre care of a bunch of species. If you can find a species that you absolutely love and won't get bored with, I'd highly encourage you to trade your smaller vivs for a single large one.



Ross said:


> I say go for it.
> 
> Focusing on one huge project can leave you with something truly awe-inspiring.
> 
> This is one of my favorite corner displays.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A vivarium half the size of that one could have serious potential.
> 
> The topic has been discussed on DB before, but the American hobby seems to be lacking in large "Euro-style" displays; the emphasis stateside tends to be on collecting a variety of different species in single-species enclosures, which typically means compromising on living space for frogs.
> 
> If you do decide to take this route I doubt you will regret it. Just make damn sure you do it right the first time.


That viv is a truly spectacular one. However, it looks like it's really a paludarium and that the base is entirely filled with water. Considering that azureus are being kept in this tank I have to wonder if, despite the awe-inspiring aesthetic quality of this viv, this is best suited for the inhabitants.

The argument comes up from supporters of the European way of doing things that larger tanks provide more "living space" for the frogs and are often better suited. However, I think the tank posted is a prime example of one that doesn't provide proper living space. Really, a smaller viv that is better designed to the needs of the frog is likely to be a better choice than that massive, well-scaped viv that has a base filled with water.... While large "Euro-style" vivs may provide more overall space, that is hardly adequate grounds to assume that, even for a single species enclosure (much less a mixed-species enclosure), these vivs are better suited than smaller vivs specifically designed for the inhabitants (rather than designed for aesthetic appeal).

Some thoughts....


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## Markw

Agrees, but it IS a stunning paludarium. Beautiful. I think it'd be great fun for you to do a large viv, though.

Mark


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## Mitch

God, I knew this would turn into a flame war. I also never said I'm absolutely going to mix. It was just an idea. This whole project is just an idea! 

Ross, that is one amazing viv. Thanks for the advice too!

I measured out the space I would have for this viv. I think I could fit something like 4'x2'x2', if this would be a horizontal tank. That's 119.86g, which is not very big, but is fairly large (for what I'm used to). Guys, don't get angry and say "GAH THAT'S TINY YOU SHOULD ONLY HAVE ONE FROG IN A 500G VIV!!!11!." I could also do a huge vertically oriented tank, since the cieling is over 7' high. Just throwing ideas out here...


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## Mitch

Also, Jake, some of the stuff you said in that post is obnoxious. Please take your anger out elsewhere.


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## Azurel

I kinda find it funny that in darts a 100g depending on it's dimensions is considered not that big. Where in reefing big starts at 100g.....Not to mention looking at all of these frog racks with small vivs can anyone say that a 100g tank is "not that big"? I mean really?

I say go for it Mitch find a frog that you can't live without and do a big viv. Not to mention plants are just as a big addiction as the frogs it seems....With them in most cases being cheaper I have had to tell myself no many times on buying plants, so a big viv would allow you to get some plants that you can't or couldn't use cause of the smaller vivs.


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## SmackoftheGods

Mitch said:


> Also, Jake, some of the stuff you said in that post is obnoxious. Please take your anger out elsewhere.


Umm... I felt like I kept a pretty level head.... No where did I call you stupid or a retard or a "hybridiot," no where did I say you absolutely cannot mix, that your legitimacy among the frogging community is in jeopardy, that it's just like a noobie to think that after a year (and I still don't know if that amount of time is accurate, I asking that question out of genuine interest) to think that he now has the experience to mix. If you can't handle a mild post like mine then, considering the other characters we have around the forum, why did you bring up mixing at all? I see nothing wrong with asking questions and evaluating ideas.

Also, you should probably keep in mind that you're posting in a public forum and that threads with controversial content will inevitably lead to backlashes. Although, again, I feel like I provided a pretty mild and level headed post, especially when compared to some.... So please, enlighten me about where I "flamed" you.


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## dravenxavier

There are mixed tanks here that get great support. The two combinations he suggested in the OP are fine mixes that, given the proper size vivarium, would provide little competition for space, and no possibility of hybridization.

For the size, you said you could do 4x2x2...but if you really can do tall, go for it, especially if you're trying to mix something more arboreal. maybe 4x2x4? Besides, the bigger you go, the more space you have for plants!


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## motydesign

i would say build the huge tank, but go BIG! do 300 at least! then if you have a little room, do a nice rack of three or 4 20gal Longs(thats only a 1'X5' foot print needed) and then you only have 1.5 to 2 hours a week of work and keep your current frogs.


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## SmackoftheGods

dravenxavier said:


> There are mixed tanks here that get great support. The two combinations he suggested in the OP are fine mixes that, given the proper size vivarium, would provide little competition for space, and no possibility of hybridization.


Yes, the frog choices that were mentioned were pretty close to the ideal if a mixed tank must be done. But there's more to mixing than picking the right frogs and having a big tank. A 900 gallon viv that is poorly scaped still may not be adequate for the frogs mentioned....


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## Mitch

Azurel said:


> I kinda find it funny that in darts a 100g depending on it's dimensions is considered not that big. Where in reefing big starts at 100g.....Not to mention looking at all of these frog racks with small vivs can anyone say that a 100g tank is "not that big"? I mean really?
> 
> I say go for it Mitch find a frog that you can't live without and do a big viv. Not to mention plants are just as a big addiction as the frogs it seems....With them in most cases being cheaper I have had to tell myself no many times on buying plants, so a big viv would allow you to get some plants that you can't or couldn't use cause of the smaller vivs.


I completely agree with the tank size thing. Also, with the plants, a larger tank has much more options. Huge broms can work well and could look awesome. See here: 










Other nice Euro tanks can be seen here.



dravenxavier said:


> There are mixed tanks here that get great support. The two combinations he suggested in the OP are fine mixes that, given the proper size vivarium, would provide little competition for space, and no possibility of hybridization.
> 
> For the size, you said you could do 4x2x2...but if you really can do tall, go for it, especially if you're trying to mix something more arboreal. maybe 4x2x4? Besides, the bigger you go, the more space you have for plants!


4x2x4 would be a great size too! That'd be crazy... 



motydesign said:


> i would say build the huge tank, but go BIG! do 300 at least! then if you have a little room, do a nice rack of three or 4 20gal Longs(thats only a 1'X5' foot print needed) and then you only have 1.5 to 2 hours a week of work and keep your current frogs.


If I build this tank then it'd be just the one tank and nothing else. Good idea, though.


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## boombotty

Wow, there are some Nice vivs on there. I am not a big fan of mixing, but it seems like mixing is the norm over "there." Some of the vivs seem to be mixed the "wrong" way, as having tincs, leucs, and galacts. I think if mixing, something like vents and a larger terrestrial frog would be the way to go, which I'm sure you've heard.

I'd say go with a large viv, you can do so much more with that than lots of small tanks on a rack.


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## flapjax3000

Large tanks are awesome. I just finished a 125 for a group of 1.2 and wish I could provide that for all of my species. It is a bit of work and costly though. Typically not including the cost of the tank you have to realize that custom lights and a rack have to be built. Plus circulation/drainage etc. Just those alone cost me close to $500. Also where you build it is where it is going to be forever. They are not really easy to move.

Larger tanks also improve your plant choices. You can finally use large vining plants, broms and aroids without causing it to seem overgrown.

I still would not suggest mixing even using a terrestrial and arboreal combination. A large adult Azureus could easily trample a newly morphed vent since the offspring need access to the leaf litter to get to the microfauna. Usually one species will outcompete he other. Why not just have a larger group of one and see how they interact? Its a good chance to witness mate selection if you have a 3.5 or better. They can call/fight and still have room to get away if stressed. Also with a tank like that you would most likely want to do something special. I personally would go with my all time favorite. Good luck and have fun.


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## VicSkimmr

SmackoftheGods said:


> However, I think the tank posted is a prime example of one that doesn't provide proper living space. Really, a smaller viv that is better designed to the needs of the frog is likely to be a better choice than that massive, well-scaped viv that has a base filled with water....


Hardly, just that one small section where you can see the azureus sitting has more land area than 90% of the tanks on this forum that house azureus. I'm kind of surprised that you would make that argument.


I vote go big, but choosing which frogs to put in there will be a very difficult decision. I think you'll find that all of them have certain qualities that you want to have and some that you dream of putting in there won't be as suitable as you'd like.

R. benedicta come to mind. They're amazing looking and do well in groups but are notoriously shy and aren't adept at raising their own young.


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## vivlover10

VicSkimmr said:


> Hardly, just that one small section where you can see the azureus sitting has more land area than 90% of the tanks on this forum that house azureus. I'm kind of surprised that you would make that argument.
> 
> 
> I vote go big, but choosing which frogs to put in there will be a very difficult decision. I think you'll find that all of them have certain qualities that you want to have and some that you dream of putting in there won't be as suitable as you'd like.
> 
> R. benedicta come to mind. They're amazing looking and do well in groups but are notoriously shy and aren't adept at raising their own young.


I have to disagree with you on this one the benedicta, fants, summersi, and retics are the kind of frogs that will benefit from dim light, overgrown tanks and lots of hiding spots I mean lots. I got that info from a man who no's his frogs. most people have these lighting fixtures that give lots of light for the plants not the frogs. His benedict are out daily as well as his fantastica, summersi, and retics. 

Mitch; the big tank would be sweet!!!! i would love to see some huge broms the size of oven or something! Hope you can find something BIG!!!!I was just at a reptile store and saw the new exo's they are huge for and exo!!!!!!


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## arielelf

There is a nice Exo-Terra that is 3 feet tall and 3 feet wide and 18 inches deep. Its not exactly huge but it is very convenient. I got the 2' wide x 3' tall model and love it. I wish I had more space in my office for the 3' wide model. 
You have more depth to play with in your space but the easy opening doors and the ease of venting in really awesome. I guess it would work out to be about 100 gallons.


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## arielelf

I forgot to include a link to it,
here it is:
Exo Terra : Natural Terrarium Large / Advanced Reptile Habitat


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## SmackoftheGods

VicSkimmr said:


> Hardly, just that one small section where you can see the azureus sitting has more land area than 90% of the tanks on this forum that house azureus. I'm kind of surprised that you would make that argument.


That one small section appears (and I can't say for sure, just what it appears to me to be) to be a vast majority of the usable space for an azureus in that tank. That small section also doesn't appear to be more than 18" square (again, since I don't have measurements on the tank I can't say for sure, only what it appears to me to be). Other than those few who keep their tincs in 10 gallon tanks I'd say that's about average compared to what most people over here keep their azureus in. What I'm _not_ seeing is leaf litter, or coco huts, or any of those nifty hiding places that benefits frogs (even tincs). What I _am_ seeing is a pretty precarious ledge over a foot of water. I understand that PDFs can swim and that most drownings occur from aggression in standing water features, but I'd still be pretty concerned about that....


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## VicSkimmr

That's true, it could be better, but I bet Mitch could set up a good large tank that suited frogs perfectly.


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## ryan10517

mitch are you planning to buy the tank pre-made or make it yourself with plywood and fiberglass and epoxy like the deeb's 300 gallon paludarium or something along those lines?


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## Mapp

The other day I found a 7'x32"x32" maple display case with a glass front and top for free on Craigslist. A few coats of epoxy and you have a 370 gallon viv. If I were you, I'd keep my eye out for things like this in classifieds and second hand stores.


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