# Mixing With Green Sips please look!



## mavhammer45 (Apr 7, 2011)

I have a 40 gallon vivarium. Would it be a bad decision to house a leucomelas and a green sip. The vivarium is well plants with plenty of ponds and hiding spots. Could someone leave a answer thanks. I would only have 1 of each.


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm not sure what a "green sip" is but the general rule is:

If you have to ask, then you shouldn't do it.




That is not necessarily to say they can't be housed together, but it takes an extremely advanced keeper with indepth knowledge of the individual species. 

Do a search there are a TON of threads on mixing species and in particular there is one very large one that goes into very good detail about factors to consider (space usage, cross contamination, stress induction, breeding locations, etc, etc, etc)


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

No, not a good idea. The search function will bring up more discussion on mixing than anyone would ever care to read.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

NO, and its just not the fear of producing hybrids. Mixing can lead to the spreading of parasites and such from one group to the other as well as chytrid. 

Michael


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## mavhammer45 (Apr 7, 2011)

They are both males.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Sounds like you've already made up your mind, so why bother asking?


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Could you insert a subtle glass barrier and divide it into two vivs that look like one?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> NO, and its just not the fear of producing hybrids. Mixing can lead to the spreading of parasites and such from one group to the other as well as chytrid.
> 
> Michael





mavhammer45 said:


> They are both males.


I don't understand why the fact that they are both males would somehow stop the spreading of parasites or chytrid.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

mavhammer45 said:


> They are both males.


good thing poison beauties already addressed that its not just about hybrids.


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

both of them being males does not solve the problem of aggression in fact it probably adds to it as well as stress/dominance


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

First let me be clear that I do not support mixing. However, logic must prevail when someone asks why. Would there not be the same risk with putting two frogs of the same species/morph from different vivs together? Any two darts frogs that did not grow up together could exchange parasites or diseases. There is no greater risk of this, that I am aware of, between species that between two Green Sips or two Leucs, etc.

If I was new to the hobby and was given that as the sole reason not to put two males of different species together, then I'd be confused. As I understand it, a logical reason not to mix, even if it is safe for the frogs and no breeding will occur, is that it can confuse others new to the hobby into thinking it's ok when they come to your house and see the viv. Most people automatically think of it in terms of a fish tank. That is why zoos that display darts in mixed tanks do not help the hobby IMHO. 



Pumilo said:


> I don't understand why the fact that they are both males would somehow stop the spreading of parasites or chytrid.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

JimO said:


> First let me be clear that I do not support mixing. However, logic must prevail when someone asks why. Would there not be the same risk with putting two frogs of the same species/morph from different vivs together? Any two darts frogs that did not grow up together could exchange parasites or diseases. There is no greater risk of this, that I am aware of, between species that between two Green Sips or two Leucs, etc.
> 
> If I was new to the hobby and was given that as the sole reason not to put two males of different species together, then I'd be confused. As I understand it, a logical reason not to mix, even if it is safe for the frogs and no breeding will occur, is that it can confuse others new to the hobby into thinking it's ok when they come to your house and see the viv. Most people automatically think of it in terms of a fish tank. That is why zoos that display darts in mixed tanks do not help the hobby IMHO.


I think that most of the time, with someone new to the hobby, when they get two frogs of the same species, they are going to have been raised together. They are going to purchase them from the same source. Why would they want to pay for shipping twice in order to get them from 2 different bloodlines? Especially if they are not interested in breeding. So *generally*, putting two frogs of the same species together will mean that they were raised together. But putting two frogs from different species together pretty much assures that you are grouping frogs that were NOT raised together. i.e. different pathogens and parasites.
Plus, and maybe this is old school, but I was always told that putting frogs together from different locations, could introduce frog A, to a pathogen or parasite from Location B. Frog A's population could have little or no natural defense against said pathogen.
I thought it was good advice that Michael gave him but in his next post the op completely ignored and discarded it.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> NO, and its just not the fear of producing hybrids. Mixing can lead to the spreading of parasites and such from one group to the other as well as chytrid.
> 
> Michael



How is this anymore of a concern than when housing the frogs in general?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

If I have to explain this in too much depth it will make you look dumb so hows this.......If you have a group of frogs raised together they are already all likely infected with the same parasite, coccidia, chytrid or whatever. That said your choices are test and treat or dont. When you add in a second group it adds to the risk of one group contaminating another. It just adds to the risks. That said you can also end up with a parasite load or chytrid through not being sterile with your husbandry maintanance as well as adding new plants, soil and food.

Michael


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> If I have to explain this in too much depth it will make you look dumb


I'll tell you what, instead of taking your frustrations out on me, for being a general waste of matter, why not just answer the question?






poison beauties said:


> so hows this.......If you have a group of frogs raised together they are already all likely infected with the same parasite, coccidia, chytrid or whatever.


Ahh, see, my pointy-headed friend, you specifically raised this issue in relation to mixing frogs, not simply the introduction of new individuals to an already existing group. Hence my question about this being any different than what one would need to deal with, when introducing new frogs, of a similar type


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Can we take the beginer section out of the new posts lists like the lounge? Every other post is mixing or something like it.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Funny, but it still stands as a bigger risk. When you add a frog to an existing viv without testing it you are risking your frogs health. And this gos for adding new frogs of the same species as well. Its not just mixing, its adding a new group of frogs to an Existing one.
There is also talk of stress with introducing new frogs to existing vivs. That said it doesnt fair well for ones already infected. and to add to it would make it worse.

My entire point is it adds to the risk. By bother with it?

That said testing and proper quarentine is the only way to deal with it.

Maybe the beginner section needs more attention. More banners or just ban mixing threads this way neither side can get it started. THere is enough info on it here for the new hobbyists to make their choice. I'd be more than happy to write a full post on the risks of it for you to sticky.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Funny, but it still stands as a bigger risk. When you add a frog to an existing viv without testing it you are risking your frogs health. And this gos for adding new frogs of the same species as well. Its not just mixing, its adding a new group of frogs to an Existing one.
> There is also talk of stress with introducing new frogs to existing vivs. That said it doesnt fair well for ones already infected. and to add to it would make it worse.
> 
> That said testing and proper quarentine is the only way to deal with it.


Again, you specifically raised the issue in relation to mixing, not the general introduction of new individuals. And still haven't outlined why it would be any more of a concern, besides stating "I said so"


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Monkey you seem to have a crush on me or something. Lets end this bicker style flirting your doing and walk away. I proved out my thoughts on the 10 gallon issues you hit me with as CO2 being the killer to the idea 10's are just as good as larger vivs.. Im not trying to keep on with it. Im just offering help to someone who asked.

I said it gos for both. Its the basic introduction of new frogs to a viv. The only risk I could see as mixing would for a toxin, parasite or something not common to one species natural habitat being introduced to another as many frogs here go untested and most are imported.. Again I havent had it happen but its more than possible. 

I wont repost here in this thread.

Michael


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Monkey you seem to have a crush on me or something.


clearly, it's almost as if I was under the impression that this was a discussion forum, and trying to flesh out a topic. But clearly having a crush on you makes more sense...




poison beauties said:


> Lets end this bicker style flirting your doing and walk away. I proved out my thoughts on the 10 gallon issues you hit me with as CO2 being the killer to the idea 10's are just as good as larger vivs.. Im not trying to keep on with it. Im just offering help to someone who asked.


what are you even talking about?



poison beauties said:


> I said it gos for both. Its the basic introduction of new frogs to a viv. The only risk I could see as mixing would for a toxin, parasite or something not common to one species natural habitat being introduced to another as many frogs here go untested and most are imported.. Again I havent had it happen but its more than possible.


No, you originally raised it in relation to mixing, and still have not explained how it actually represents some unique danger in those circumstances



poison beauties said:


> I wont repost here in this thread.


clearly a loss for us all...


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

These are all very good and logical points. We probably should have a sticky thread entitled "The Problems with Mixing Frogs" or something and lay out all the reasons in one place. Then if someone posts a question, we can post the sticky thread link.

Sometimes I've seen (not on this particular thread) a genuinely interested new person essentially told (paraphrasing here) "Don't mix because I said so."

On the other hand, the veterans shouldn't have to explain all the technical reasons every time there is a question.



Pumilo said:


> I think that most of the time, with someone new to the hobby, when they get two frogs of the same species, they are going to have been raised together. They are going to purchase them from the same source. Why would they want to pay for shipping twice in order to get them from 2 different bloodlines? Especially if they are not interested in breeding. So *generally*, putting two frogs of the same species together will mean that they were raised together. But putting two frogs from different species together pretty much assures that you are grouping frogs that were NOT raised together. i.e. different pathogens and parasites.
> Plus, and maybe this is old school, but I was always told that putting frogs together from different locations, could introduce frog A, to a pathogen or parasite from Location B. Frog A's population could have little or no natural defense against said pathogen.
> I thought it was good advice that Michael gave him but in his next post the op completely ignored and discarded it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Has anybody else noticed that in the last week or 2, there have been a LOT of new threads on mixing? They are almost all posted by a brand new member. Do you think it's just a crazy coincidence or are there one or two people out there, registering from different computers, just to start a flame war?? Just wondering.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Has anybody else noticed that in the last week or 2, there have been a LOT of new threads on mixing? They are almost all posted by a brand new member. Do you think it's just a crazy coincidence or are there one or two people out there, registering from different computers, just to start a flame war?? Just wondering.


though most of the recent mixing posts read like troll bate, the issue would be with the people that can't discuss the topic maturely. 

PS they are more likely using a proxy


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> PS they are more likely using a proxy


Ahh, that would make more sense. I'm computer impaired so it's not the first thing that came to mind.


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Okay Ive read soo many mixing threads the last few weeks that while I agree it may be someone intentionally starting flame wars. However I am starting to really get sick of this BS!

What Im also noticing amongst veteran froggers is that right someone puts in their 2 cents and all of a sudden theres a total war starting with members. This is not the way to unite and move our hobby forward. Logical discussions are fine thats the way progress occurs. but the attacking HAS TO STOP!!!!! It is getting super old people. Its also pretty petty and immature.

Jim I think youve had the best idea so far. Maybe a chat at some point in DB Chat people can start getting ideas together in a mature logical manner without it becoming a headache to the main portion of the board?
Then with the agreed upon info and ideas a sticky could be written up


Just my idea on this situation


Todd


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Actually, Michael mentioned it first, but I'm always willing to accept a compliment. 


Dartfrogfreak said:


> Jim I think youve had the best idea so far. Maybe a chat at some point in DB Chat people can start getting ideas together in a mature logical manner without it becoming a headache to the main portion of the board?


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I don't understand why large vivs divided by glass aren't more popular for those who want to see several species or morphs in one scene. I believe it was on DB, but I remember someone who had three Exos side by side and created backgrounds and even branches that were designed to give the appearance that it was one continuous viv. He/she cut a sizeable branch and then glued the cut ends to match up between the two vivs. It looked spectacular. Someone could glue two sheets of glass into a 75, for example, and have three decent sized separate sub-vivs. They could even share a misting system and have a common drainage feature.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

JimO said:


> I don't understand why large vivs divided by glass aren't more popular for those who want to see several species or morphs in one scene. I believe it was on DB, but I remember someone who had three Exos side by side and created backgrounds and even branches that were designed to give the appearance that it was one continuous viv. He/she cut a sizeable branch and then glued the cut ends to match up between the two vivs. It looked spectacular. Someone could glue two sheets of glass into a 75, for example, and have three decent sized separate sub-vivs. They could even share a misting system and have a common drainage feature.


I think that thread was this and used 10 gallons: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/66387-3-tanks-one.html 

It's a cool thread and I have actually had a 40 gallon split in half for years now housing two breeding groups of leucs or leucs on one side, auratus on the other. I have even toyed with the idea of hiding the divider with rock ledges, or a tree buttress or something, but for now it's just a clear glass divider. 
Bryan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> How is this anymore of a concern than when housing the frogs in general?


 
In reading backwards I think this is the first post on this I ran across.. there is a increased risk with using frogs from seperate geographic regions. There is a greater risk of a novel pathogen jumping from one to the other resulting in problems. This can be seen across a number of taxa and it is only in the last decade are we starting to get an idea of the magnitude of the issue with herps in general and amphibians in particular. 

As some examples across several taxa, we can look first at Mycoplasma infections in North American chelonians as we have now seen pandemics in the native Gopherus species and are now seeing it in native Terrapene, which is believed to have originated through the practice of keeping native Gopherus with other chelonians and then releasing them. 
Viruses of the iridovirus complex coevolve with natal populations but if translocated to a novel population or species cause mass mortality event (across multiple taxa, including invertebrates, fish, reptiles and amphibians). 

So there is a real risk of mixing animals from disparate locations and unfortunately we are only seeing part of the picture at this time. 

Ed


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I would be willing to bet Mavhammer45 has the same IP address as the member "New". Dont feed the troll people.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

GRIMM said:


> I would be willing to bet Mavhammer45 has the same IP address as the member "New". Dont feed the troll people.


I have no intention as feeding the troll(s). I was simply answering a question in the thread by a regular member... 


See also http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/70190-rash-trolls.html#post614106 

Ed


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

That definitely wasnt directed towards you Ed, just everyone as a whole.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

thanks for the explanation, ed


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## morphman (May 20, 2011)

Not intended to single Grimm out here just my general opinion as I'm like most here and gettin sick of this childish crap.




GRIMM said:


> I would be willing to bet Mavhammer45 has the same IP address as the member "New". Dont feed the troll people.


 
Whether this is true or not the fact remains that most people know that if you're looking for a good heated argument then start a mixing thread on DB. The aggresiveness with which this topic is handled can make for a very amusing thread for "trolls". I personally dislike the attitude in these threads and by the time I get to the end of a thread that I hoped would have some good feedback ; it is either closed (too heated) or the discussion is so unhelpful and out of context that the real questions are never answered.

We have enough information on the negative aspects of mixing to last a lifetime but there is hardly any info on the benefits. ( yeah I know the benefits are for looks only and don't benefit the frogs....etc) The thing is that people are finding out that it " mixing " CAN be done with lots of research and it looks great. I know for me the aesthetic appeal was the first thing that drew me to this hobby. We need to acknowledge that there is a lot of newcomers are drawn to the look of the natural vivs and generally "more" is better for a newcomer. To these newcomers it doesn't get more "natural" than having multiple species in the same tank and interacting peacefully. I have always wanted something like that and always will.

I hate hybrids and I do not support anything that will harm the hobby including mixing but I still hope one day to build a viv with darts and some pygmy chameleons and day geckos but untill I find enough information with positive feedback and actual examples, I wouldn't think of doing it. I'm beginning to think that the information I hope to find is not going to be on D.B. Don't get me wrong; some members have put in huge amounts of their personal time to post threads for others to benefit from and that's how I learned most of what I know about PDF. I will always be gratefull for that and they have my respect.

But....... IMO

It is not mandatory for Senior members to throw their 2 cents in especially if they are "so tired of repeating the same thing". Let the newbies duke it out and then guide them to some useful threads. Why stress yourself ?? You've done your part and provided the information time and time again. Do you "like" the argument. The thread Ed provided about this topic should be enough to give anyone an idea of how it can be done with pros, cons and examples.

How does everyone else know so much about this when almost none of them have even tried it ?? I mean who are you anyway !?! Don't assume !! That newbie might not know a lot about PDFs but they might have WAAAAAY more experience than you give them credit for. I have raised everything ffrom a chimpanzee to a tarantula for about 30 years now and sometime it pisses me off that some punk wants to talk shit cause they've had PDFs for a few years. I have lived both sides of the story. I am from Africa and I used to be that little boy that goes to catch animals to sell without having an idea what I'm doing to the environment and I am now the consumer on the other side of the world who pays for all that. I never talk to people teh way some members approach this subject and I have seen things that would more than upset a few people. I found out that people react very badly to aggressive approaches and they might do stuff just to feel vindicated and that does not help the hobby and I'm not just talking about in Africa. I've also lived in Europe and in Asia and I've had pets there too.

When I'm on D.B I avoid the subject and people should keep in mind that this community has a right to defend it's ideals but newcomers need time to figure that out. We should do as some members suggested and ban "mixing" threads altogether to avoid these sad outcomes. This way it's clear to everyone where the community stands and nobody gets offended. We can also include a sticky for anyone that wishes to share any positive feedback about their own experiences. We can call it " Exceptions to the Rule"!!

My apology to the OP for doing like almost everyone else and HJ his thread with this loooong post but I finally had to get it out. 
Good luck


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

morphman i get where you are coming from, but the fact is these threads go no where now because they have been re hashed so many times. when i first got on here, they were infrequent, and people were helpful in them. now, people are so sick of them. you havent been on here very long, so youve only seen the fighting. but youve been on here long enough to know about the search feature, which you should use to find some old mixing threads.



why dont we just make a sticky about mixing? im sure Ed could type up a pretty amazing post that would suffice for anyone wanting to mix (that hasnt already made up their mind about it). im sure everyones getting tired of typing up the same explanations every week anyway.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

morphman said:


> But....... IMO
> 
> How does everyone else know so much about this when almost none of them have even tried it ?? I mean who are you anyway !?! Don't assume !! That newbie might not know a lot about PDFs but they might have WAAAAAY more experience than you give them credit for. I have raised everything ffrom a chimpanzee to a tarantula for about 30 years now and sometime it pisses me off that some punk wants to talk shit cause they've had PDFs for a few years. I have lived both sides of the story. I am from Africa and I used to be that little boy that goes to catch animals to sell without having an idea what I'm doing to the environment and I am now the consumer on the other side of the world who pays for all that. I never talk to people teh way some members approach this subject and I have seen things that would more than upset a few people. I found out that people react very badly to aggressive approaches and they might do stuff just to feel vindicated and that does not help the hobby and I'm not just talking about in Africa. I've also lived in Europe and in Asia and I've had pets there too.


You have a point but this is the DartFrog hobby. Facts, opinions and experience based on other herps doesnt pertain to this hobby. Many of us have much more experience in breeding reptiles than frogs but the key to keeping these forums atleast on track is to stay on topic. There are factors to this hobby that do not compare to other herps. There is way too much unknown here as well as a lack as a group to advance knowledge.

We need not to continue mixing threads but if someone comes up with a new take or idea on it post it up, I want to hear it. I think at most if its going to happen we need a proper sticky on the pros and conns to it so we can just refer them to it and delete the OP. I would hope this is what we could agree on.

Michael


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

morphman said:


> We have enough information on the negative aspects of mixing to last a lifetime but there is hardly any info on the benefits.


Perhaps because there are no benefits, a mixed tank is a neutral factor at best, but much more likely to be detrimental. Notice that a well done mixed tank in the hands of an experienced frogger does not really generate controversy (Energy's ex-reef, the Hillstream tank, the recent Ameerega/thumb tank). Basically, if someone has to ask "can I mix X and X together?" they are nowhere near ready to try it.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

thedude said:


> morphman i get where you are coming from, but the fact is these threads go no where now because they have been re hashed so many times. when i first got on here, they were infrequent, and people were helpful in them. now, people are so sick of them. you havent been on here very long, so youve only seen the fighting. but youve been on here long enough to know about the search feature, which you should use to find some old mixing threads.
> 
> 
> 
> why dont we just make a sticky about mixing? im sure Ed could type up a pretty amazing post that would suffice for anyone wanting to mix (that hasnt already made up their mind about it). im sure everyones getting tired of typing up the same explanations every week anyway.


then just ignore it


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> then just ignore it


right, as everyone else is doing? convince everyone to ignore them, or just make a sticky...what sounds easier to you? not very helpful...


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

thedude said:


> right, as everyone else is doing? convince everyone to ignore them, or just make a sticky...what sounds easier to you? not very helpful...


Is everyone else complaining about how they are bothered by them? I mean, it's not like you're lawfully, or biologically, compelled to reply to every post on the forum. So if you're sick of such threads, and they annoy you, doesn't it make sense to just ignore them?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

thedude said:


> im sure Ed could type up a pretty amazing post that would suffice for anyone wanting to mix


 Like this? 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

morphman said:


> I still hope one day to build a viv with darts and some pygmy chameleons and day geckos but untill I find enough information with positive feedback and actual examples, I wouldn't think of doing it. I'm beginning to think that the information I hope to find is not going to be on D.B.


 
I really can't begin to stress the whole novel pathogen issue enough.. It really is a bigger problem than many people realize and the information is just starting to come in with herps.. 
As an example of cross taxa issues, there are epidemics of seals dying from canine distemper (Mass die-Off of Caspian seals caused by canine distemper virus.), to lions dying from canine distemper (AGRIS repository search result) sea otters dying from toxoplasmosis (http://www.otterproject.org/atf/cf/{1032ABCB-19F9-4CB6-8364-2F74F73B3013}/RISK PAPER-MILLER.PDF) to outbreaks of iridovirus in mixed collections of chelonians (see http://www.emc.ncsu.edu/faculty/people/lewbart_greg/doc/boxturtle_ranavirus_devoe.pdf). I've already mentioned mycoplasma and ranavirus. 

If you are going to consider mixing, then please be responsible and use animals from as close a geographic region as possible, ideally one that is the same. 

There is more data now about this than when I wrote my first thread on dendroboard and it isn't a good picture. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

zBrinks said:


> Like this?
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html


 
My first thread on Dendroboard!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

zBrinks said:


> Like this?
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html


yes like that


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Then again its kind of hard for those who like to help to avoid threads whether mixing or not that say ''please look'' in the title.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Then again its kind of hard for those who like to help to avoid threads whether mixing or not that say ''please look'' in the title.


so ll your willpower is overcome by the expertly employed phrase "please look"?


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## morphman (May 20, 2011)

poison beauties said:


> You have a point but this is the DartFrog hobby. Facts, opinions and experience based on other herps doesnt pertain to this hobby. Many of us have much more experience in breeding reptiles than frogs but the key to keeping these forums atleast on track is to stay on topic. There are factors to this hobby that do not compare to other herps. There is way too much unknown here as well as a lack as a group to advance knowledge.
> 
> * At the same time a lot of the information is the same and that is the attitude I was talking about!! I don't need anyone to tell me that as there are many hobbies that are also concerned with the same issues when it comes to "mixing". What are these factors you speak of ?? What is the track you want to follow?? Who is with you ?? What are you talking about ?? Like you said there are too many unknown so why don't we let those with actual experience comment and that will advance the knowledge base. Repeating the same rant does not. After 30 years it's kind of an insult for you to tell me that PDF are different and a bit ignorant to think that facts,opinions and experiences in other hobbies do not pertain to PDFs. Have you kept anything else ?? Also I never mentioned "breeding" cause that's a different topic.
> 
> ...





Ed said:


> I really can't begin to stress the whole novel pathogen issue enough.. It really is a bigger problem than many people realize and the information is just starting to come in with herps..
> As an example of cross taxa issues, there are epidemics of seals dying from canine distemper (Mass die-Off of Caspian seals caused by canine distemper virus.), to lions dying from canine distemper (AGRIS repository search result) sea otters dying from toxoplasmosis (http://www.otterproject.org/atf/cf/{1032ABCB-19F9-4CB6-8364-2F74F73B3013}/RISK PAPER-MILLER.PDF) to outbreaks of iridovirus in mixed collections of chelonians (see http://www.emc.ncsu.edu/faculty/people/lewbart_greg/doc/boxturtle_ranavirus_devoe.pdf). I've already mentioned mycoplasma and ranavirus.
> 
> If you are going to consider mixing, then please be responsible and use animals from as close a geographic region as possible, ideally one that is the same.
> ...


 Ed,
I've read the old and new and I just wish more people would take that approach instead of "No! Not good! Don't do it" You provided some of the only links I found with successfull examples of mulispecies tanks and what it took to create them. 

As for being responsible I don't think many people would spend years researching something if they didn't plan on being responsible. I've been researching PDF for 4 years now and still haven't bought any and it's not because I can't get them. My intention with the chameleons and geckoes will prbably not work for reasons you stated about the geographic locations and pathogens. If it wasn't for your thread I don't know where else to get this kind of info. Like I said I won't be doing it till I'm satisfied I know enough and that may never happen.




poison beauties said:


> Then again its kind of hard for those who like to help to avoid threads whether mixing or not that say ''please look'' in the title.


 I think it's great you want to help but if it's a mixing thread then what is you expect to see when you "please look"?? Also why keep repeating the same things when you can just referr them to any one of the threads already in existance. I guarantee you that after reading a few threads they will have a very good idea on where the community stands. Honestly I saw other threads with some good valid questions that have been posted longer than this thread but the response is overwhemingly in favor of this thread. I can name a few people who will pay for you to spend as much time as you did respondidng to this thread if you can help educate them with other questions.
Save your energy for that and the hobby will appreciate it 

OP sorry again but this thread is actually turning out.......... OK. 
Only good intentions here even if it came out a bit rough.


Cheers


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## morphman (May 20, 2011)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> so ll your willpower is overcome by the expertly employed phrase "please look"?


Where do you come up with this stuff man. FUNNY !! LMAO.

cheers


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

morphman said:


> Ed,
> I've read the old and new and I just wish more people would take that approach instead of "No! Not good! Don't do it" You provided some of the only links I found with successfull examples of mulispecies tanks and what it took to create them.
> 
> As for being responsible I don't think many people would spend years researching something if they didn't plan on being responsible. I've been researching PDF for 4 years now and still haven't bought any and it's not because I can't get them. My intention with the chameleons and geckoes will prbably not work for reasons you stated about the geographic locations and pathogens. If it wasn't for your thread I don't know where else to get this kind of info. Like I said I won't be doing it till I'm satisfied I know enough and that may never happen.


If you want to consider a multispecies enclosure with dendrobatids as the base species, then you should look at animals within the same region as those frogs. 

As an example, you could consider D. ebraccatus with one of the appropriate auratus morphs, and if you could set up the correct niche(s) possible a small snale like some of the Sibon (some may eat treefrogs), or a small pair of gonotodes or spharodactylus. You'll need a good bit of height and some research on spot basking areas and dryer areas versus damper areas. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> I really can't begin to stress the whole novel pathogen issue enough.. It really is a bigger problem than many people realize and the information is just starting to come in with herps..
> As an example of cross taxa issues, there are epidemics of seals dying from canine distemper (Mass die-Off of Caspian seals caused by canine distemper virus.), to lions dying from canine distemper (AGRIS repository search result) sea otters dying from toxoplasmosis (http://www.otterproject.org/atf/cf/{1032ABCB-19F9-4CB6-8364-2F74F73B3013}/RISK PAPER-MILLER.PDF) to outbreaks of iridovirus in mixed collections of chelonians (see http://www.emc.ncsu.edu/faculty/people/lewbart_greg/doc/boxturtle_ranavirus_devoe.pdf). I've already mentioned mycoplasma and ranavirus.
> 
> If you are going to consider mixing, then please be responsible and use animals from as close a geographic region as possible, ideally one that is the same.
> ...


This is what I was talking about earlier in the thread, although I had no science or precedents to back it.
Are there any Sci Fi nuts out there? This is an old concept in science fiction. Man discovers life on another planet. Man establishes friendship. Man goes back to Earth to announce findings and gather supplies to help new "alien" friends. Upon return, man finds entire planet wiped out by the common cold. They had no natural immunity to our alien pathogens.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Awful green things from outer space.. .turned into a game so you can relive the horror.. 


Ed


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## morphman (May 20, 2011)

Ed said:


> If you want to consider a multispecies enclosure with dendrobatids as the base species, then you should look at animals within the same region as those frogs.
> 
> As an example, you could consider D. ebraccatus with one of the appropriate auratus morphs, and if you could set up the correct niche(s) possible a small snale like some of the Sibon (some may eat treefrogs), or a small pair of gonotodes or spharodactylus. You'll need a good bit of height and some research on spot basking areas and dryer areas versus damper areas.
> 
> Ed


 Thank again Ed for the helpful information  I think I am at least a few years away from doing a mix tank with PDF as I don't have much experience keeping them and until my experience level with them is at least at par with my experience with the other future coinhabitants.

cheers


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## Atmus (Mar 3, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> This is what I was talking about earlier in the thread, although I had no science or precedents to back it.
> Are there any Sci Fi nuts out there? This is an old concept in science fiction. Man discovers life on another planet. Man establishes friendship. Man goes back to Earth to announce findings and gather supplies to help new "alien" friends. Upon return, man finds entire planet wiped out by the common cold. They had no natural immunity to our alien pathogens.


"Whoops, my bad! Well, at least we get a free planet out of it."


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I think that thread was this and used 10 gallons: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/66387-3-tanks-one.html
> 
> It's a cool thread and I have actually had a 40 gallon split in half for years now housing two breeding groups of leucs or leucs on one side, auratus on the other. I have even toyed with the idea of hiding the divider with rock ledges, or a tree buttress or something, but for now it's just a clear glass divider.
> Bryan


Thanks! The tanks are doing great.


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