# INIBICO PROJECT -PERU



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I was just looking at the update on Sean Stewart's web site and was wondering if anyone can enlighten me regarding what a A. azureventris (orange stripe) is. I did some quick checks on google, but couldn't find anything on it. 

This project sounds really cool! It will be nice to get some new 'blood' into breeding lines.

Melis


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I check that site daily to see if they are in yet. I wish he had a list, but undersytand why he doesn't.



melissa68 said:


> I was just looking at the update on Sean Stewart's web site and was wondering if anyone can enlighten me regarding what a A. azureventris (orange stripe) is. I did some quick checks on google, but couldn't find anything on it.
> 
> This project sounds really cool! It will be nice to get some new 'blood' into breeding lines.
> 
> Melis


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*be patient*

Kyle - Since his project is very long term, I don't think anyone will need to rush to be 1st in line. I am sure Sean will be over run. 

We should try and get together in the future when we try to order frogs. It looks like our tastes are pretty similar and with you living so close, it would be nice to be able to split shipping charges. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: be patient*

Very good idea, let me know.



melissa68 said:


> Kyle - Since his project is very long term, I don't think anyone will need to rush to be 1st in line. I am sure Sean will be over run.
> 
> We should try and get together in the future when we try to order frogs. It looks like our tastes are pretty similar and with you living so close, it would be nice to be able to split shipping charges.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

*E. azureventris*

From what I understand it is E. azureventris not A. azureventris, but then again Shulte may have changed this since he has been working with them and has found some reason or another to classify them differently. They are a very cool small-medium sized frog from what I have heard, but like to lay in broms and stuff like the thumbnails (second hand info, could be wrong  ). I have been looking for some for a year... no luck. Anyone that has some isn't breeding them, mainly because everyone seems to have all males! The one person I know that has breed them, lost their female... so doesn't look like they will be hear until a shipment comes in. I am very excited about these frogs coming (as well as the others). Here is one picture:










I can't find the others right now, but if I do I will post them. They are very cool looking to me, and they have a blue/black belly from what I hear.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*your pic didn't come through!*

your pic didn't come through


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## DKiM128 (Feb 16, 2004)

I have that same problem too, the picture doesn't seem to appear.

But checking the url, Here it is http://community.webshots.com/s/image5/ ... dzu_ph.jpg


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2004)

Here is another picture of one.... It's from Wildsky










Benjamin


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*URL doesn't work either....*

Says I don't have access.



DKiM128 said:


> I have that same problem too, the picture doesn't seem to appear.
> 
> But checking the url, Here it is http://community.webshots.com/s/image5/ ... dzu_ph.jpg


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Interesting....*

Kinda looks like a cross between an imitator and a juvinile terribilis.... Interesting little frog.



Bgreen said:


> Here is another picture of one.... It's from Wildsky
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

I think that is the more yellow lined morph, and that there are orange striped ones as well as maybe even a red striped one! The top stripes (ones that run from vent all the way around the nose) are the ones that are of different colors. The picture I posted is from Ron Jung's Webshots photo gallery, and I know I have had trouble viewing stuff from other peoples Webshots links (same problem that you are having Melis)... but for some reason I can view his and the image shows up here for me as well. Sorry about that, and I still haven't found the other images.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: Interesting....*

Very cool looking frog, I need some of those....



melissa68 said:


> Kinda looks like a cross between an imitator and a juvinile terribilis.... Interesting little frog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

More than a couple froggers I know well agree on this... we will pass and let the people who are more likely to have success work with the initial shipment(s).

I'm only now reaching the point where I feel I should be taking on more difficult frogs (pumilio... etc.). And I've been keeping frogs for 6+ years (more likely 7 if I think about it a bit).

I'll leave the WC frogs to the "experts". And I mean that sincerely. 

The reasons... The frogs are more likely to survive, the frogs are more likely to thrive and therefore... the frogs are more likely to breed thus making it more likely that there will be future generations at a more reasonable cost.

I urge you all to consider this... and pass unless you feel you're really ready to work with (possibly) difficult WC frogs.

Sincerely,

Scott
Sanford, Maine


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

*E. azureventris*

I bred this species back in the early 90s and couldn't give it away, the thought still makes me nausous. Nowadays you could have a waiting list for this one. 

I had a 2.1 trio of these in a 15 gallon tank with a screen top. I covered half the top with a thin piece of plexiglass. The frogs had a piece of driftwood, pothos plant, and a water dish. The substrate was peat/leaf litter mixture. The frogs laid eggs on the plant leaves usually as high as they could. Clutches around 10-15 eggs every 3-4 weeks. Sometimes I would just find tadpoles in the water dish. They have a fairly loud trill, I could hear it down the hall with my door closed. The female is larger than the male, as most Epipes are. Males about 1" females a bit longer in length but beefier in body. The colors of the stripes vary including orange, yellow, gold, green and blue. I do not know if this color variabiltiy is something seen in only cb animals or if it exists in wild populations. I have been told by someone who studied them in the field that these frogs can change color depending on their mood; not like a chameleon but a bright frog could become dull, more of an intensity change. If you have worked with tricolor, which is an easy frog to breed provided you can feed them; azureventris is very similar and very hardy. I hope to be able to offer some of these later this year or possibly next spring. If Sean is able to bring them in I would encourage anyone interested in this species to work with them, even if you are relatively new to dendrobatids.

Thanks
Eric


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: E. azureventris*



EricM said:


> ... If Sean is able to bring them (E. azureventris) in I would encourage anyone interested in this species to work with them, even if you are relatively new to dendrobatids.


Eric... you feel this way even though they'd be WC and possibly full of worms and/or parasites?

s


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

*E. azureventris*

I would think they would be ok to work with if you have had some experience with breeding frogs, but I wouldn't get them for your first frog or second... as they will be new, or should I say a comeback, frog to the hobby. So it would be best if experienced people got them and breed them for the future. I have heard mixed reviews of this frog. Eric says its pretty easy to keep, but I have heard from others that it is a little touchy and hard for it to put on a good healthy weight (not questioning you Eric, but I feel you are better at keeping Epipedobates and have more experience with them then most of us, so they would probably be easier for you no matter what ). So it seems not to be hard to keep, but maybe harder to keep 100% healthy or in breeding condition? You also have to consider that they are being bred in fairly good numbers by Shulte so hopefully a couple shipments would come in, thus securing their niche in the US hobby.

I would love to hear more about this color changing ability, and also if there is any info on wild distributions and its correlation to the different color morphs (if any). I bet the blue or orange ones look spectacular!


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

*possible parasites?*

Scott,

Emphatically Yes!

Rainer's project is about collecting tadpoles in receptacles placed in the frog's natural habitat. The tadpoles are raised in captive conditions, morphed out and grown up to a stable size. So the frogs that may eventually make it to USA will be in very good shape.
There is no way to guarantee any frog is parasite free, even cb. I don't know anyone who does monthly fecals. Maybe Dr. Frye can give some insights to any cb frogs he has found parasites in? Plus if the tadpoles are collected, there is a chance that all the parasites that are normally ingested from a terrestrial frog may be avoided. The less time the larvae spend in the wild the less chance for parasites. 
I've been keeping darts for almost 15 years and have had pretty good luck with wc frogs, especially when they were cared for by someone with half a clue prior to being shipped, if the exporter can provide correct husbandry to frogs come in very good shape. You always need to quarantine. If you do not have a quarantine space away (as in a differant room) from your collection then stay away from wc. It is not worth the risk. I am not sure if the frogs coming in from Inibco are going to be screened for parasites or not. Sean Stewart please feel free to chime in on this one.

If this species is imported it's an easy frog to work with based on my experience with it. Obviously it's a personal choice and if you are not comfortable with wc there are plenty of awesome cb frogs to choose.

Just some thoughts
ERic


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Eric,

I'd say the only real advantage to the farming project is that there will be someone who actually gives a hoot on the other end (you say this too) packing the "shipment".

Farm Raised *is* Wild Caught though. Do not kid yourself. 

It's a slightly better version of Wild Caught, but it is WC.

s


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I agree for the most part, though some people like myself would take the proper care of the frogs and consult the proper people before hand. I do understand the concern, and if only a few were coming I may agree more. I'm hoping to get a few, but we will have to see.



Scott said:


> More than a couple froggers I know well agree on this... we will pass and let the people who are more likely to have success work with the initial shipment(s).
> 
> I'm only now reaching the point where I feel I should be taking on more difficult frogs (pumilio... etc.). And I've been keeping frogs for 6+ years (more likely 7 if I think about it a bit).
> 
> ...


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: possible parasites?*

Eric,

I thought I had seen Dr. Frye make a statement regarding parasite loads he had seen in captive born animals. He posted an ad at frognet.org and stated the following: _"Did you know that 80% of CAPTIVE BRED dart frogs in the US have 3 or more internal parasites? 96% have at least one."_ the url is http://www.frognet.org/cgi-bin/ads/ads.cgi?dispitem&forsale&1077222366&For+Sale 

It seems like regardless of where you get your animals you will have parasites. 

Melis



EricM said:


> Scott,
> 
> Emphatically Yes!
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2004)

I thought I would pass along my long winded  experience with wc frogs. My third set of frogs were a pair of wc kalhua & cream auratus. I was in the hobby for about a year, and could of used a little more time. I have no clue where the pair was collected, but they were absolutely beautiful. My male has the distinct patterns of a green and black, with the green replace by a nice creamy color, and has speckles of blue and green all over. The female was even nicer!

They were both very healthy and fat when I got them in and stayed that way for a couple months. After that, I started to notice that they were both loosing a little weight. I increased their food, but they still continued to loose weight. At this point I should have started to really worry, but they weren't really skinny and seemed to act totally normal. I again increased their feedings but still couldn't put weight on them. I got nervous at this point, called Dr. Frye, and sent him 2 fecals.

Believe it or not, they had no parasites, but had really high bacteria counts. Dr. Frye prescribed medicine and sent it right to me. They day before it arrived my female died. A week later my male was putting on weight like a champ. All I needed from the very beginning was a little metronidazole!

So the moral of my story . . . I have no clue. Maybe, if I had previously had a sick frog or a friend to talk to about this, I wouldn't now be pulling my hair out looking for an adult female k&c for my male. I was too nervous for a while to post anything on kingsnake or frognet, because I really didn't know anyone. This is one of the reasons why I created dendroboard.

I think there are four necessary elements for anybody who what’s to keep wc darts (or maybe even darts in general). First, a complete understanding and ability to produce food and a lot of it. Someone living in a remote location cannot afford to wait a couple days for flies cause their petco culture crashed. Second, a complete understanding of making vivs tailored to specific species. I have heard so many stories of frogs escaping, getting trapped, and dieing from inadequate conditions. Third, a set of friends to call when something doesn't look right. Finally, a vet who knows frogs (Dr. Frye!). I think these are just the basics, but can be attained in short time if there are resources. Hopefully these resources are here


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## 4thecrue (Feb 18, 2004)

One thing I may add to this is I totally agree that most of these frogs should be left to the experienced froggers only. Although I have visited Seans home and i know he does perform fecals on most of his frogs. Now I dont want to put things out there that arent true but he may be doing fecals on these frogs before he passes them on. Just a thought and maybe Sean will clear this up for us.

Damon


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## seanstew (Feb 12, 2004)

*Peru Frogs*

Thanks to all who remain optimistic regarding the Peru Project. Just to clarify some info out there that has been recently posted...the frogs from Peru will be collected from our artificial breeding containers as tadpoles. They will then be transported to green houses and raised "in captivity." The tads are not susceptible to Chytrids and since the frogs will be raised in terrariums they will not be exposed to parasites as they would if wild collected. They should not harbor any parasites. To be sure, when they are shipped to the USA they will be quarantined and screened for parasites (fecals and skin assay for Chytrids). We have a vet on staff, as well as, I have a lab on site to run some assays. We are serious about quality control, legality, local data and conservation. We want this to succeed over the long run. Afterall, the wild populations are at stake here. This is not a wild caught ranching venture. This is novel!

Thanks,

Sean Stewart
http://www.herpetologic.net


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Sean,

I'm glad to hear you'll be doing testing on your end also. That gives me much more faith that the project will work. 

s


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## Will (Feb 15, 2004)

If anyone is interested in some reading, I found INIBICO -Peru proposal a while back. It gives the details about how the frogs will imported. 

Here is the link:


http://www.gefweb.org/Documents/Medium- ... t_Frog.pdf


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: Peru Frogs*

Very cool, I can not tell you how much I hope this project really takes off. 




seanstew said:


> Thanks to all who remain optimistic regarding the Peru Project. Just to clarify some info out there that has been recently posted...the frogs from Peru will be collected from our artificial breeding containers as tadpoles. They will then be transported to green houses and raised "in captivity." The tads are not susceptible to Chytrids and since the frogs will be raised in terrariums they will not be exposed to parasites as they would if wild collected. They should not harbor any parasites. To be sure, when they are shipped to the USA they will be quarantined and screened for parasites (fecals and skin assay for Chytrids). We have a vet on staff, as well as, I have a lab on site to run some assays. We are serious about quality control, legality, local data and conservation. We want this to succeed over the long run. Afterall, the wild populations are at stake here. This is not a wild caught ranching venture. This is novel!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2004)

*Thanks*

Thank you so much for the nice compliment hicksonj. Metronidazole sure can do wonders, especially for wild caught frogs.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

That sounds so awesome! I cant wait till it takes off!

Ryan


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Personally I can not wait for this frogs to be introduced into the hobby! I can not wait until I can get my name on the list for a few frogs. New frogs with info on exactly were they are from and new bloodline to start working with. Wow what a big event to happen to the hobby when the first frogs come to the states. Nice work Sean.
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2004)

I just hope when they do come in the frogs will go to people that really want to work with the species and not just get them for bragging right or something like that.
Mark W.


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## AlexB (Feb 15, 2004)

true... we should leave those imported to the breeders. and then the rest might have a chance of getting some.  still the thought of having different bloodines frogs especially fantasticus really makes me excited.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

From the sound of past talks on this topic it sounds like these will be in better shape then WC, as they are farm raised and not just picked from the ground or trees.


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