# Wild-caught



## tb1 (Apr 6, 2009)

Apparently, a friend of mine has some wild-caught O. Pumilio from Costa Rica that he was able to personally export into the U.S for research. He has a variety, a few are light lime green with blue back legs and front 'hands' and some red with light brown spots [looks like BriBri]. He says that according to his research export contract he can sell these when he is done. They are all proven pairs so I'm thinking about buying them, but I want to make sure that it would be legal. Do I have to have a permit to keep these, breed these or sell their offspring as F1? How much would they be worth, per frog, in the first place? I'm new to dart frogs, though I've kept my own about a year and have kept other frogs over the past 11 years or so. Any input on this would be appreciate.

Thanks


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

I would ask to see a copy of his 'research export contract' and make your own determination about the situation. If he refuses to show it to you then you know the answer. 

Bill


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Agreed...and hey, get some pics if you can?


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## tb1 (Apr 6, 2009)

I appreciate the input. I'll make sure he's not just trying to make a quick buck, but he's more of a trusted colleague than a friend. I just wanted to get some more information as to legal stuff, as I'm not aware of any details and neither is he. I have two pictures of them on a different computer, which I will post. Also, I wasn't aware of a green and blue pumilio in CR, but he says he collected them there - anybody aware of this morph? [I'll get a picture up later] Also, are these guys worth more because of being wild caught?

Thanks again


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

tb1 said:


> Also, I wasn't aware of a green and blue pumilio in CR, but he says he collected them there - anybody aware of this morph? [I'll get a picture up later] Also, are these guys worth more because of being wild caught?
> 
> Thanks again


A green pumilio with blue legs? Could be Cayo de Agua or maybe Popa. Check out Oophaga pumilio Morphguide and www.DendroBase.de for some help nailing it down.


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

These 2 sites might help you. 
Permits - Import and Export
Welcome to CITES


You can see what a USFWS import form looks like here.
Permits - Import and Export


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## tb1 (Apr 6, 2009)

Thanks,
Though I'm not too concerned with Import / Export and CITES, since everything is here already. He filed a "Solicitud de Permiso para Realizar Investigaciones" with SINAC-MINAET or roughly translated, "Application for Research" that included a request to collect and export a certain pre-determined number of specimens, which he eventually did export.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I know that a similar situation has occured with WC pumilio from Panama exported for research - F1s from the wc adults were aquired by a private breeder, and sold into the hobby. As to how they were aquired/difference in legality due to country of origin/ethics/etc, I have no idea.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would suggest checking the CITES import permit. If the import was for research purposes then the import permit may prohibit selling them into the pet trade. If the permit does prohibit it, then it is possible that the sale would be illegal and a potential felony under the LACY act (as the sale would violate the conditions under an international treaty) for not only those frogs but thier offspring. 
A further complication is that the sale may be in violation of the College's IUCAC policies and approval.

As a further note....... on legality, I would suggest reading through the filings on the recent Operation ShellShock (available on request from NY Game Commission) 

Ed


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

If I understand correctly... as it is legal to possess WC PDFs... obtaining them and keeping them would not be illegal for you...

If he has acquired them for research only and resale is not permitted... any broken law would be to his consequence only. The worst thing that can happen to you is they may be confiscated and you would have to argue with him about a refund.

Although I do not promote/support throwing laws to the wayside, it seems to me that any risk would be on his side and the potential of "getting caught" would be minimal...


On a side note - In the fish trade it is commonly frowned upon to house WC specimen and not use them for breeding purposes. It just seems selfish to remove an animal from the wild for no reason other than one persons pleasure. Although adding WC animals to breeding programs is often essential to refresh the gene pool. That being said, if you get them... I hope you breed them and distribute the F1 offspring.


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## tb1 (Apr 6, 2009)

I agree - I think that keeping wild-caught frogs and not breeding them or anything else that reduces the availability of desired species only promotes smuggling, which can destroy natural populations. So yeah, if I do get these I do plan on breeding and selling them as F1 offspring.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Toby_H said:


> If I understand correctly... as it is legal to possess WC PDFs... obtaining them and keeping them would not be illegal for you...
> 
> If he has acquired them for research only and resale is not permitted... any broken law would be to his consequence only. The worst thing that can happen to you is they may be confiscated and you would have to argue with him about a refund.


If it is a violation of the CITES permit then by buying the animals you would also be violating the LACY Act. 



Toby_H said:


> Although I do not promote/support throwing laws to the wayside, it seems to me that any risk would be on his side and the potential of "getting caught" would be minimal...


The risk of getting caught may be minimal but the effects of getting caught would not.... A potential outgrowth of the sale would be if the Costa Rican goverment finds out then they may make it difficult for other researchers to remove animals since they would view this a profiting on thier wildlife. Even the perception of this is a big problem for researchers in Central and South America. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

tb1 said:


> I agree - I think that keeping wild-caught frogs and not breeding them or anything else that reduces the availability of desired species only promotes smuggling, which can destroy natural populations. So yeah, if I do get these I do plan on breeding and selling them as F1 offspring.


Just remember.....a reputable hobbyist is prepared to tell anyone asking exactly where he obtained his animals.

If you have any doubts as to the legal OR ethical methods behind the origin of any given animal.....you should not obtain it or patronize the owner.

and there's always this.....sketchy dealings with frogs / animals have an interesting way of circiling back into the hobby(we are a small and vocal community). You always run the risk of ruining your reputation with bad decisions.


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

It sounds like I did not understand the legalities of it correctly… if by purchasing them you are in fact ‘breaking the law’ I would have to change my original casual approach…

Thanks Ed and Philsuma for bringing up additional consequences that I did not consider.


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## tb1 (Apr 6, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Just remember.....a reputable hobbyist is prepared to tell anyone asking exactly where he obtained his animals.
> 
> If you have any doubts as to the legal OR ethical methods behind the origin of any given animal.....you should not obtain it or patronize the owner.


I totally agree, which is why I say, 'if' I get these - I still have more research to do. I'm simply inquiring here as to whether or not a permit is needed to have WC specimen, breed them and sell the offspring, with the assumption that they were legally obtained in the first place. Thanks for the insights and warnings though =]

I attached some pictures of two of the frogs. It surprises me, because they are both from Costa Rica, but any green morphs I've found online are from Panama, like Cayo de Agua
Cool looking frog though


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

tb1 said:


> I totally agree, which is why I say, 'if' I get these - I still have more research to do. I'm simply inquiring here as to whether or not a permit is needed to have WC specimen, breed them and sell the offspring, with the assumption that they were legally obtained in the first place. Thanks for the insights and warnings though =]
> 
> I attached some pictures of two of the frogs. It surprises me, because they are both from Costa Rica, but any green morphs I've found online are from Panama, like Cayo de Agua
> Cool looking frog though


Because its not a pumilio....... its a granuliferus.. be prepared to get emails and pm galore for people wanting to buy them...
Brian


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

the plot thickens!!!!!!!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Are there "sting" operations for frogs?

Do Law Enforcement officers monitor lists and forums like this one?

As Sarah P. would say: Youbetcha


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tb1 said:


> I totally agree, which is why I say, 'if' I get these - I still have more research to do. I'm simply inquiring here as to whether or not a permit is needed to have WC specimen, breed them and sell the offspring, with the assumption that they were legally obtained in the first place. Thanks for the insights and warnings though =]


Legally obtained doesn't mean that they or thier offspring can be legally sold or possibly even have thier ownership transferred. while its possible the CITES research permit would list the researcher as the owner, I would expect to see the institution where he is performing the research as the owner....

I suspect if you contacted CR (Or even Brian Kubicki down at the Costa Rican Amphibian Research Center (Costa Rican Amphibians) and ask about it. Brian may be able to get you the answer. 



Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Are there "sting" operations for frogs?
> 
> Do Law Enforcement officers monitor lists and forums like this one?
> 
> As Sarah P. would say: Youbetcha


look up operation shell shock for a recent one..... 

Ed


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Ed said:


> Legally obtained doesn't mean that they or thier offspring can be legally sold or possibly even have thier ownership transferred. while its possible the CITES research permit would list the researcher as the owner, I would expect to see the institution where he is performing the research as the owner....
> 
> I suspect if you contacted CR (Or even Brian Kubicki down at the Costa Rican Amphibian Research Center (Costa Rican Amphibians) and ask about it. Brian may be able to get you the answer.
> 
> ...


i just wanted to chime in here about brian..i haven't talk to him in years but he was alway more then willing to answer questions like this or any other frog related question..one of the nicest guy I have come across in my time in this hobby...it would be worth your wild to e-mail him.
Brian


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## tb1 (Apr 6, 2009)

Thanks again for the comments, though the pissy downer ones aren't so much appreciate.



Ed said:


> I suspect if you contacted CR (Or even Brian Kubicki down at the Costa Rican Amphibian Research Center (Costa Rican Amphibians) and ask about it. Brian may be able to get you the answer.


Thanks for the input on that. I'll keep him in mind for contact before I actually consider taking these into my own care. =]

Regards


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

tb1 said:


> Thanks again for the comments, though the pissy downer ones aren't so much appreciate.


Take it with grain of salt..no one here is a bad person its just that some times our passion come off strong...
Brian


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## tb1 (Apr 6, 2009)

Brian Ferriera said:


> Take it with grain of salt..no one here is a bad person its just that some times our passion come off strong...
> Brian


I do =], they're just not appreciated
Are Brian as in Brians' Tropicals btw?


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Nope..i get that allot  
Brian


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

"Pissy downer" / Real life

They are kinda the same.


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## TonyT (Feb 16, 2004)

Would be hard to pass them up. Kinda like waving crack in front of and addict, he knows it's wrong but ....................................LOL

TonyT


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Bah! I saw that blue-legged "pum" and thought "yes! someday I will own a pair of those!" 
Then I read Brian's comment:


Brian Ferriera said:


> Because its not a pumilio....... its a granuliferus.. be prepared to get emails and pm galore for people wanting to buy them...
> Brian


......and so were her hopes and dreams dashed in that moment . Why couldn't you just let me live the dream Brian?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Three pages of posts and not one person even suggests that it is un-ethical to participate in the rape of the natural populations of these frogs that we (supposedly) love so much. Listening to folks talk about this subject at the central NJ meet recently, it seems that people will use whatever sounds reasonable to them to justify buying wild stolen animals. I heard comments such as "the rainforest is being destroyed, so we need to save these frogs", and "since they are coming in anyway, we should do our best to raise them and breed them", or "we need new bloodlines to keep the hobby going strong", even "we need to keep these animals in the hobby in case they are extirpated from the wild"!!

If you had suggested breeding two of these morphs together, you would be getting flamed royally on this site. But, by suggesting something that many of these guys find no ethical issues with themselves (as I believe many people here have purchased wild stolen animals or the progeny produced by wild stolen animals), you get complicit support from the other nature rapers out there.

Whether it is legal or not, you should really sit down with yourself and ask if this is really something you want to be personally associated with. I hope you make the right decision.

Richard in Staten island.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Just remember.....a reputable hobbyist is prepared to tell anyone asking exactly where he obtained his animals.
> 
> If you have any doubts as to the legal OR ethical methods behind the origin of any given animal.....you should not obtain it or patronize the owner.
> 
> and there's always this.....sketchy dealings with frogs / animals have an interesting way of circiling back into the hobby(we are a small and vocal community). You always run the risk of ruining your reputation with bad decisions.


Gee Richard....I thought I took a good run at it.....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I thought I made some comments in that vein as well..... 

Ed


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

Ouch Woodsman… kind of harsh…

The frogs originally asked about in this thread had already been removed from the wild “for research”… So the OP who is considering acquiring them will not remove any additional frogs from the wild, it simply gives a good home to some that have already been removed…

As for another point you made… every animal in captivity has been removed from the wild or is the descendant of an animal that has been removed from the wild… So to keep exotics as pets is to support the removal of animals from the wild in one fashion or another…

I’m very new to the wonderful world of frogs but I have been a fish keeper/breeder for years. My view on keeping wild caught fish has always been that it is wrong to remove a fish from the wild to keep as a pet, but it is acceptable to keep them to add strength to a breeding line. This is a very common perspective in the fish world.

I would also like to add that I do not own a single wild caught fish, or other animal. As I breed only as a hobby.

Should we also consider the reality that the vast majority of animals born in the wild fall prey to predation. Therefore removing a few juvenal frogs is much more likely removing the future meals of a larger animal than it is removing part of a breeding population.

While I completely support your ambition to preserve nature… I cannot agree that the conversation at hand is challenging such preservation…


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Toby,

Suggesting that the majority of juveniles only fall victim to predation anyway is a new one for me. I think people will come up with almost any kind of justification to behave badly. In order to make this kind of argument for removing animals from the wild implies that we already know the detailed population ecological perameters of dart frogs in the wild (which we certainly do not). Unlike many species of frogs in the temperate zone (that can produce progeny in the thousands or tens of thousands), it is clear that Dendrobatid frogs do not have this type of reproductive strategy. Species that produce smaller numbers of progeny that the parent invest with a great deal of after-care (K-selected species), are more like mammals and birds than higly reproductive species that provide minimal after-care for their progeny (r-selected species).

So saying that most of them are going to die anyway is not a persuasive argument for wild collecting. Currently, there isn't really even the hint that the dart frog hobby represents any interest in real conservation of the species in the wild (consider the luke-warm interest in the work of the TWI/ASN), so we shouldn't expect anything other than that hobbyists will act selfishly to acquire the "latest and greatest" frogs that they are desirous of keeping. Many species of plants and animals have already become extinct at the hands of "hobbyists".

One only has to witness the extinction or local extirpation of a species to develop "harsh" attitudes on the subject. I stand by my statements. Richard in Staten Island.


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

I’m not extremely educated on the wild nor even captive breeding habits of dart frogs, but from what I understand they have around 6 eggs at a time, and have eggs a few times per year… at least in the wild…

So that’s around 25 young per year per pair… adults live an average of 6 years in the wild… so that’s around 4 breeding years…

So the average adult pair could be assumed to have approx 100 offspring in their lives. If more than 2 of those offspring survived to reproduce similarly then the overall population is increasing…

Therefore I think it is logical to accept that “the vast majority of animals born in the wild fall prey to predation.” I feel 95+% is the vast majority…

In this conversation we have been discussing whether or not someone should take steps to acquire a pair of frogs that are already in captivity and have been used for research… I honestly feel that suggesting this is “raping nature” is an obvious exaggeration of reality and you are being unnecessarily harsh to the Original Poster. 

I do not disagree with your passion for conservation, I disagree with your harsh rudeness to the Original Poster in this thread. Misplaced anger/frustration will usually cause more harm than good.


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

To play the devils advocate here . . . how do you "stand by your statements" with a signature like this . . . 



Woodsman said:


> Richard Lynch (Giant Orange, Regina, Citronella, Suriname Cobalt, Powderblue, Alanis, Azureus, Patricia, Oyapok, Green Sip, tinc Nominat, Leucomelas).


everyone of these animals came from a wild ancestor. I'm sure these were all the "latest and greatest" frogs at some point . . . anyone who keeps an animal as a "pet" is doing so for selfish reasons. I'm curious as to how you are reasoning yourself out of this "group"? 



Woodsman said:


> But, by suggesting something that many of these guys find no ethical issues with themselves (as I believe many people here have purchased wild stolen animals or the progeny produced by wild stolen animals), you get complicit support from the other nature rapers out there.


Perhaps you should define "wild stolen animals" as I'm curious about how this term is actually being used.

I personally own no wild caught frogs but obviously ALL of my frogs are the progeny of wild ancestors (though many generations hence) . . .


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

excellent melas
I also would like to point out I have no wild caught animals and never will. I support captive breeding whole heartedly.I own no wild collected plants either, and with over 100 orchids in my collection, as well as lots of carniviorous pants like venus flytraps which are notoriously illegally over harvested that says something.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Ed, 

I certainly appreciate the discussion of the legal issues pertaining to wild collected animals. I was trying to get at something a bit more basic, that there should be an established ethic amongst the dart frog hobby community to not support the taking of wild animals. How many wild collected animals does one see at any reptile show across America, offering legally-collected animals at bargain prices. Personally, I would love to have a giant Red-footed Tortoise, but knowing that they are removed from the rainforest in huge numbers, that most don't survive the tranist, and that purchasing these animals from dealers only fuels the continued carnage (even if it is "legal").

I'm sure you know what I mean. Take care, Richard.



Ed said:


> I thought I made some comments in that vein as well.....
> 
> Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> I certainly appreciate the discussion of the legal issues pertaining to wild collected animals. I was trying to get at something a bit more basic, that there should be an established ethic amongst the dart frog hobby community to not support the taking of wild animals. How many wild collected animals does one see at any reptile show across America, offering legally-collected animals at bargain prices. Personally, I would love to have a giant Red-footed Tortoise, but knowing that they are removed from the rainforest in huge numbers, that most don't survive the tranist, and that purchasing these animals from dealers only fuels the continued carnage (even if it is "legal").
> 
> I'm sure you know what I mean. Take care, Richard.


Most don't make it out of the country and are eaten as bushmeat.... In fact the vast majority don't make it out as they are readily consumed.. 

There are really only a few main paths the intial paths one can take on this topic..

1) establishing a captive population will require initial imports of animals. This can take a number of years to develop husbandry practices that enable captive breeding at a level that exceed the mortality rate of the captive animals (and in some species depending on how they are marketed, may never be reached.. (check out the numbers of C. orientalis and B. orientalis imported, through the link here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/40687-bad-press.html ) for an example in the hobby, we have been importing auratus and pumilio intermittantly for more than 20 years now... 

2) establishing a do not purchase any wc animal regardless policy... this would mean that the hobby would reject the establishment of new species regardless of origination 

3) establishing a policy that allows for sustainable harvesting under a certified process to ensure habitat is maintained 

I'm getting tired and I know there are a couple more scenarios but I just can't think of them off hand..... but this should get the conversation started...

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

You will note from my signature that none of my frogs are the current latest and greatest. In fact, many of the frogs that are of interest to me are becoming threatened with loss from the hobby as more hobbyists do seem to be drawn the the latest and greatest. You should also recognize that there is certainly a profit motive at work in the hobby as it exists today. Many froggers want to raise frogs that can be resold for the highest amount. This is not at all unique to the PDF community, but many good frogs are at risk of loss from the hobby becasue they don't offer the great profits that many of the newest thumbnails and egg-feeder offer (at least for now).

And (of course) all species dart frogs arose as imports from nature at some point. I hope you aren't offering this as yet another justification for continuing the practices that have resulted in numerous species having become extinct in the wild.

As for "wild stolen animals", I believe that even currently "legally-imported" animals should not be purchased, as there is very little good science being conducted on the population numbers of these species in the wild and the sustainability of the trade. Numerous species that were taken legally in the past have become seriously depleted (Atelopus species, D. lehmani, etc.), ultimately requiring the complete curtailing of any legal taking. Of course, almost any species that is desired by the hobby will be smuggled out of the wild, which is why conservationists support current proposed legislation that would limit the transpostation of all amphibians.



melas said:


> To play the devils advocate here . . . how do you "stand by your statements" with a signature like this . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Toby_H said:


> I’m not extremely educated on the wild nor even captive breeding habits of dart frogs, but from what I understand they have around 6 eggs at a time, and have eggs a few times per year… at least in the wild…
> 
> So that’s around 25 young per year per pair… adults live an average of 6 years in the wild… so that’s around 4 breeding years…
> 
> ...


Hi Toby,

I'm not totally clear on what you are saying in this post and the previous one so if I answer your point incorrectly, I'm not doing it deliberately... 

There are a couple of points when we start discussing the removal of offspring.. it depends on the rate of recruitment.. and removal of either a single adult or offspring via artifical means can doom a population (the best studied references are for chelonians specifically box turtle and blanding's turtles where the removal of a single animal can render it non-viable in the long run). This is a hard thing to understand as the population can persist for a long time particuarly when long lived animals are involved (which is one of the main reasons turtles are the best example). So if you have a species where the rate of recruitment is low and offspring production is relatively low, then removal of any offspring can significantly impact recruitment. 

Also assuming a maximal average rate of reproduction is a problem as it gives one a false sense of security. Instead one should look at much more modest levels of reprodution and survivorship.. (for example see SpringerLink - Journal Article, 
Paternal care and the cost of polygyny in the green dart-poison frog : Deep Blue at the University of Michigan, )
as this paints a better picture as it includes the potential of losing a whole clutch or more (remember recruitment rates are an average for the population.. some pairs may produce multiple offspring and some none at all..) 

I'm getting tired and starting to ramble.. maybe I'll be more awake tomorrow and finish this up.. 

Ed


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

Woodsman said:


> You will note from my signature that none of my frogs are the current latest and greatest.


Actually I did note that . . . 



Woodsman said:


> You should also recognize that there is certainly a profit motive at work in the hobby as it exists today.


Are you suggesting that this is a bad thing? Do you give all of your offspring away for free then? What about all of the benefits that have occurred in the hobby due to this "profit motive" - readily available feeders, plants, frogs, INFORMATION - all because someone is make some money doing what they love . . . can this have some ill effects? Sure, but it's not all doom and gloom.



Woodsman said:


> And (of course) all species of dart frogs arose as imports from nature at some point. I hope you aren't offering this as yet another justification for continuing the practices that have resulted in numerous species having become extinct in the wild.


If you take the time to read my entire post above you'll see that I do not own ANY wild caught frogs - I was merely pointing out the BLATANT contradiction in your stance. Saying that people shouldn't own animals that are the progeny of wild caught ancestors while you currently own half a dozen species/morphs of the same. . . the logical contradiction that this creates is stifling . . . 



Woodsman said:


> As for "wild stolen animals", I believe that even currently "legally-imported" animals should not be purchased, as there is very little good science being conducted on the population numbers of these species in the wild and the sustainability of the trade. Numerous species that were taken legally in the past have become seriously depleted (Atelopus species, D. lehmani, etc.), ultimately requiring the complete curtailing of any legal taking. Of course, almost any species that is desired by the hobby will be smuggled out of the wild, which is why conservationists support current proposed legislation that would limit the transpostation of all amphibians.


That's a great stance. It has merit and I don't necessarily disagree with you. What I DO disagree with is your attempt at a soap box that amounted to a stone assault on your glass house . . . we are all guilty of selfishly keeping these frogs in tiny glass boxes for our own amusement. There are very few in the hobby who are doing research to any real benefit for wild populations . . .


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I think its a problem and yes I do give all my offspring away and have been doing so for a number of years now. I propose that if you don't make your living from the frogs then you give away half of the frogs you produce. They'll be lots of takers and qualifiied one too. You really want to expand our hobby - be generous. 

Attributing all those things to profit in incorrect. 

Think about it.

Best,

Chuck



melas said:


> Are you suggesting that this is a bad thing? Do you give all of your offspring away for free then? What about all of the benefits that have occurred in the hobby due to this "profit motive" - readily available feeders, plants, frogs, INFORMATION - all because someone is make some money doing what they love . . . can this have some ill effects? Sure, but it's not all doom and gloom.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

chuckpowell said:


> I think its a problem and yes I do give all my offspring away and have been doing so for a number of years now. I propose that if you don't make your living from the frogs then you give away half of the frogs you produce. They'll be lots of takers and qualifiied one too. You really want to expand our hobby - be generous.
> 
> Attributing all those things to profit in incorrect.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Chuck, I will have to remember that next time you bring Frog Day to Arizona. I've never recieved free frogs.


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

Dude if your buddy is willing to sell you proven breeders WC or CB or whatever and hes done with his research and you would like to add them to your collection i see no harm in it what so ever. and i will be one to say hell if you dont want them ill buy them. his paper work for importing and exporting isnt any of my business i see it as someone posting frogs and if i have a interest and their healthy i will purchase i like to keep life simple. i will also say that i am a proud owner of WC animals i have in the past, do now and prob will continue into the future. and i ppl can slander it all they like i see just on this site alone that ppl import export frogs all the time and hand them off to their well expierenced friends to get them well established into captivity. so anyone that says wild caught is a no no.. is speaking out agenst the highly expierence vendors and breeders that do this. iv owned wild caught monitors snakes ect... and they have thrived in captivity.
but after saying my piece i will bow down to the more expierenced froggers to duke this one out.
-Derek


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Derek,

If you think the paperwork on suspect animals are none of your buisness then you might want to read through all of this... I strongly recommend that you contact the appropriate parties and get the full transcript.. it describes the investigation through kingsnake etc.. 

Black Market Animal Trade Busted - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation 

They are out there and they are setting traps for those who chose to violate the laws.. in this case, if it is a violation then it is a federal violation..

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey Derek,

Have one of those highly experienced vendors hold a Passenger Pigeon or Carolina Parakeets for me (both species became extinct because collectors had to have the very last ones in the world stuffed and put in their collections). It's sad to hear that you believe in wild collections, as they really do hurt wild populations and take advantage of countries that do not have strong protections against taking endangered species.

Remember, Japan kills thousands of whales every year under an approved "research" protocol, but all of those whales end-up becoming high-priced whale meat dinners in the finest restaurants in Tokyo. Endangered species are a dirty business and most of these importers are dirty people.

Good luck building your collection (I have some captive born darts if your interested). Richard.



DCreptiles said:


> Dude if your buddy is willing to sell you proven breeders WC or CB or whatever and hes done with his research and you would like to add them to your collection i see no harm in it what so ever. and i will be one to say hell if you dont want them ill buy them. his paper work for importing and exporting isnt any of my business i see it as someone posting frogs and if i have a interest and their healthy i will purchase i like to keep life simple. i will also say that i am a proud owner of WC animals i have in the past, do now and prob will continue into the future. and i ppl can slander it all they like i see just on this site alone that ppl import export frogs all the time and hand them off to their well expierenced friends to get them well established into captivity. so anyone that says wild caught is a no no.. is speaking out agenst the highly expierence vendors and breeders that do this. iv owned wild caught monitors snakes ect... and they have thrived in captivity.
> but after saying my piece i will bow down to the more expierenced froggers to duke this one out.
> -Derek


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

The Lacy act. Some thumb their noses at it, saying that the sentencing guidelines are too lienient. I wouldn't chance it.


Not frog related, BUT if you want an education in Reptile smuggling in SoFL as well as a great read:


"*The Lizard King*" by Bryan Christy. It's at all the Barnes and Nobles and Borders.



...respect Jim Morrison (RIP)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> The Lacy act. Some thumb their noses at it, saying that the sentencing guidelines are too lienient. I wouldn't chance it.
> 
> 
> Not frog related, BUT if you want an education in Reptile smuggling in SoFL as well as a great read:
> ...



I would have to say it is a very white washed and glamorized education in Animal Smuggling as I have either met in person (either purchasing an animal from, dealing with for a pet store, with most of the major players on the non-enforcement side..) (for example, I bought my first boa from Udell at Martins back in the 1970s...) 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ed said:


> I would have to say it is a very white washed and glamorized education in Animal Smuggling as I have either met in person (either purchasing an animal from, dealing with for a pet store, with most of the major players on the non-enforcement side..) (for example, I bought my first boa from Udell at Martins back in the 1970s...)
> Ed


...well....Christy did have to write the book with a slight dramatic flair, to sell it.

I met him (Christy) and talked for a while. Seemed like a nice guy and was quick to point out that a made for TV movie was in the works as well as another book.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

While some of the characters are somewhat legendary with thier exploits... the method in which it was glamorized to me is a problem..
None of the major characters would provide the information unless it was presented in a "better" light so we can be sure that it wasn't truely factual. 

I can understand making money via journalism sort of thing but I have a hard time recommending it as anything other than a easy read. 
The idea of it being a made for TV movie, means I sure as heck won't watch it as it will get pasturized and bent further out of true.... 

I've had to unpack smuggled animals and identify them for the USPS Postan Inspectors and USF&W (like Arizona Blackrattlesnakes shipped via the US mail with thier rattles taped over so they don't rattle...) so I have a little bit of a clue...

Ed


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## Dragonfly (Dec 5, 2007)

I own no wild-caught and find it hard to think of the frogs, birds, spiders and all who have been smuggled in. I would not own wild caught. 

Buying something stolen that you know is stolen is tantamount to endorsing and stealing. 

If the law doesn't prevent one from legally obtaining an animal who is legally obtained as well as ethically obtained...

But often the answer to the question is if you have to ask it then you know there is something wrong. If you are in doubt then you should be out of the transaction.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ed said:


> While some of the characters are somewhat legendary with thier exploits... the method in which it was glamorized to me is a problem..
> None of the major characters would provide the information unless it was presented in a "better" light so we can be sure that it wasn't truely factual.
> 
> I can understand making money via journalism sort of thing but I have a hard time recommending it as anything other than a easy read.
> ...


Glamorized....you picked the right word there. I agree.

Did Christy and Van Nostrands agree to the content and editing? Probably, as you say, as well....


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Glamorized....you picked the right word there. I agree.
> 
> Did Christy and Van Nostrands agree to the content and editing? Probably, as you say, as well....


Is that Dr. Van Nostrand your speaking of from Seinfeld?

Unfortunately, the mass public doesn't care to hear a fully detailed and account on such topics and a watered down story tends to fill the demographics to get the story out to more people.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jubjub47 said:


> Is that Dr. Van Nostrand your speaking of from Seinfeld?


Not really......

Google Image Result for http://www.reptilechannel.com/images/article-images/lizard-king-book-f-200.jpg


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Not really......
> 
> Google Image Result for http://www.reptilechannel.com/images/article-images/lizard-king-book-f-200.jpg


I know. I was just making a callback to my favorite tv show


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> Hey Derek,
> 
> Have one of those highly experienced vendors hold a Passenger Pigeon or Carolina Parakeets for me (both species became extinct because collectors had to have the very last ones in the world stuffed and put in their collections). It's sad to hear that you believe in wild collections, as they really do hurt wild populations and take advantage of countries that do not have strong protections against taking endangered species.
> 
> ...



Dont get me wrong Richard i for one do love the envirement lol i dont litter in fact i yell at everyone else around me. i do believe we should protect endangered species and that they should be protected carefully. i guess i should of made my statement a lil more clear. i would not purchase any animals on the endangered species list or near endangered just because i feel its no good at all. i dont need something to tell me whats right or wrong i can decide that for my self lol and hence why everybody here can have those wonderful lil debates on all these wonderfully touchy topics. all im saying if someone was selling some WC animals that i was interested in and the price was right my questions would be how long have you had them where did they come from have they been treated ect.. not.. were they imported do you have paper work importer lic. ect.. thats all.. by no means am i out hunting silv back Gorillas or something like that lol. i am simple a exp herper just comming into the frog trade and learning all that i can from the top players in the game. normally if im going to make a purchase i reach out to the local frogger buddys that i value their opinion and they explain to me the do's and donts and i go from there. but like stated befor iv seen wc animals for sale through vendors private breeders/importers ect... in my opinion the more ppl breeding Wc frogs the more cb f1's and f2's are being produce which will establish them in the trade and there will no longer be a need for that type of frog wc anymore lol. but thats just me.
-Derek


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Have one of those highly experienced vendors hold a Passenger Pigeon or Carolina Parakeets for me (both species became extinct because collectors had to have the very last ones in the world stuffed and put in their collections). It's sad to hear that you believe in wild collections, as they really do hurt wild populations and take advantage of countries that do not have strong protections against taking endangered species.


Just a minor nit to pick, but both the Passenger Pigeon and Carolina Parakeet became extinct because it was vogue to slaughter the birds in the thousands on organized shoots and exploited them as a cheap food source(Passenger Pigeon) or considered vermin and hunted relentlessly(Carolina Parakeets), not because of collectors.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jason,

Nice nit you found there....not at all small......


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

When the two species became endangered (as a result of the activities you've mentioned), the remaining birds became sought after for museum collections and individuals. Last year I saw a mounted Passenger Pigeon offered for sale on Ebay. I'm pretty sure it sold for tens of thousands.

So we're both right, Jason. Take care, Richard.




flyangler18 said:


> Just a minor nit to pick, but both the Passenger Pigeon and Carolina Parakeet became extinct because it was vogue to slaughter the birds in the thousands on organized shoots and exploited them as a cheap food source(Passenger Pigeon) or considered vermin and hunted relentlessly(Carolina Parakeets), not because of collectors.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

woodsmen, why is it that everytime i read an interesting thread you are being so rude about the same thing?? if you want to b***h about environmental problems then write our government about the 1000s of environmental issues that far out weigh this hobbies. cause im going to school for herpetology and environmental science, so i get where your coming from. but nagging at a bunch of people who want nothing more than to keep great animals while protecting them in the wild isnt going to solve anything.

and i would like to add a good example of a time it was great that people took the last wild population of an endangered animal, the black mained lion. because they took them from the wild they are still being bred today (went extinct in 1930's). if they hadnt then they would have been hunted as well. or even how they recently took atelopus zeteki from the wild and they breed like crazy in zoos.......gone in the wild though.

and lastly, the reason for importing these frogs and breeding them, is to get the captive population high enough that they will stop getting smuggled. sounds pretty good to me.



sorry i hijacked the thread! if you know that the frogs are legal then by all means buy them and breed them! however, because that one is granuliferus i would recommend letting someone extremely experienced buy them. that way they have the best chance of surviving and propagating in the hobby.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> When the two species became endangered (as a result of the activities you've mentioned), the remaining birds became sought after for museum collections and individuals. Last year I saw a mounted Passenger Pigeon offered for sale on Ebay. I'm pretty sure it sold for tens of thousands.
> 
> So we're both right, Jason. Take care, Richard.


the loss of the carolina parakeet was multifocal and can only be attributed to a combination of habitat loss, collection for fashion, pet trade and shooting as a pest species but it should be noted that it was considerd a minor pest as it also destroyed some weeds that were problematic for farmers. 

If you really want to look at a final extinction event caused by collection (note I stated final as when it was too rare to collect for food, it was collected to make sure it was in museum collections) look at the Great Auk. 
Check out the wikipedia discussion on the Greak Auk......


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DCreptiles said:


> Dont get me wrong Richard i for one do love the envirement lol i dont litter in fact i yell at everyone else around me. i do believe we should protect endangered species and that they should be protected carefully. i guess i should of made my statement a lil more clear. i would not purchase any animals on the endangered species list or near endangered just because i feel its no good at all. i dont need something to tell me whats right or wrong i can decide that for my self lol and hence why everybody here can have those wonderful lil debates on all these wonderfully touchy topics. all im saying if someone was selling some WC animals that i was interested in and the price was right my questions would be how long have you had them where did they come from have they been treated ect.. not.. were they imported do you have paper work importer lic. ect..


There is a reason I keep suggesting that you get a copy of the transcript on Operation Shellshock... the original operation started with the offering for sale of a red salamander... 
Very close to the exact type of scenario you are looking at with respect to a wc animal etc.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

To the person who dinged we with a negative because I keep mentioning operation shell shock and chooses to not discuss the point on the forum.... 

I have repeatedly mentioned it as it has a direct bearing here.. if you bothered to get the whole transcript you would have see how important it is to have paperwork stipulating the source of the animals... I will further point out the relevance below... 



DCreptiles said:


> i would not purchase any animals on the endangered species list or near endangered just because i feel its no good at all.


Obviously there is some misunderstanding here about the endangered species list (or a red herring..).... for the purpose of discussion at hand can you name any dendrobatids that are protected under the ESA? So the purchase of any endangered or threatened dendrobatid would not violate the ESA.... 




DCreptiles said:


> all im saying if someone was selling some WC animals that i was interested in and the price was right my questions would be how long have you had them where did they come from have they been treated ect.. not.. were they imported do you have paper work importer lic. ect.. thats all..



This is why I had pointed out operation shell shocked repeatedly... the poster indicated that they weren't interested in whether or not the frogs were illegally imported all they cared about was that wc frogs were available.. that is the direct statement above.. 

To the person who dinged me this is your quote "You are impying an illegal animal purchase. I don't think "endquote...

If you followed the thread from the beginning there were significant legal issues raised about the ability to sell the frogs regardless if they were legally imported or not. A legal importation may still be illegal to sell if it is on a research permit that prohibits the sale of the frogs and thier offspring.. the institution named on the permit may prohibit the sale.. which would be theft then under the policies and make them illegal to sell despite being legally imported.... 

As to why shell shock is important.. if you bother to aquire a full copy then you would see that paperwork showing the legal ability to sell animals is a requirement.... 


Ed


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