# Swamp paludarium



## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Hi all!

This is my first post and my first venture into vivariums. I've been into planted aquariums before but I've been wanting to do something with both a land section and a water section for a long time. Plants will be the focus, but I hope to be able to keep some kind of amphibia as well in addition to the fish.

My build will not be a traditional vivarium build, and I hope that you will be able to help me along so that I don't screw up too badly. My tank is 100x60x40 cm and I'll be using a 150 l sump together with it. The main idea is to have a open system, with no visible technology, that simulates a peat moss biotope. I'm rather flexible about the biotope though, it's more the natural look and the general feeling I'm after.

The setting I'm trying to emulate is when a small creek meets the swamp. Water will be pumped from the sump, flow across the land section and empty into the water section. Mosses, grasses and carnivorous plants will dominate the land part and floating plants and peat will dominate the water part. I'll probably either go with killifish or wild-caught Bettas and galaxy rasboras for the water part. I have no idea if there is any amphibian that could deal with this type of environment (constantly wet, open, low pH, probably rather low humidity). Could you please give me some suggestions? A "non-gaudy" type of small frog or toad would be optimal.

As of now I have ordered the tank and built the stand. There will be a lot of technology involved later on, but I'll let that be another post. Right now I'm waiting for plumbing parts and then I'll begin on the hardscape.

Thanks!


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I was obviously too stupid to figure out how to add images in the text. Help me out please


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## Alegre323 (Sep 2, 2011)

subscribing. cant wait to see how its gonna turn out


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## Alegre323 (Sep 2, 2011)

Rasmus said:


> I was obviously too stupid to figure out how to add images in the text. Help me out please


you have to upload them with any hosting site (flickr, photobucket,etc...)
then generate tag codes

it uses


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I'll try to post regularly then  I was able to add the thumbnails without using a hosting site, seem weird if you couldn't also add them to the text..

Anyways, the images show how I've drilled the tank for plumbing to the sump, the sump(s) I'll be using and the current look of the whole thing. The sump will host a large filter, pumps for oxygenation, heater, UV, RO and breeder "tanks" for raising fry or tadpoles. Ok, I have no idea about how to raise tadpoles, so say fry  In addition, the sump will act as a refugium where I raise microfauna and shrimp for feed for the fish and (maybe) the land dwelling guys. Depends on if I can find something that can eat stuff in the water.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

That is one sexy, clean looking tank. Is it ADA?

And Im not sure what your design ideas are, but maybe this one will inspire you a bit. Its definitely one of my all time favorites, it has a very nice shoreline, and has similar dimensions to your tank. Not quite a swamp, but the majority of the substrate is definitely under water.










When you say you want this to be an "open" system, I take it you wont be adding a top to this tank. If so, I dont think there are many amphibian options that wont climb out of the tank, especially not in the dart world.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Nope, the tank is custom made. That sure is a stunning tank, but only partly along my line of thinking. For one it's a rainforest tank and I'll be aiming for a subtropical swamp. That will probably not be possible due to lack of a chiller, but it's that look I'm after. So no orchids, bromelias and so on. I'm also aiming for the "life among death" feel of a swamp where decaying plant matter is a prominent feature. The submerged feel to that tank is spot on though. Thanks for sharing!

You're right about the no top part. I was afraid that the climbing would be a large issue. What about some small toad? They are lazy, right?


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## tgregoire (Jul 21, 2010)

Grimm that is a stunning paludarium, almost as crisp and clean as your recent build. Everyone here can always count on you for inspiration! 

Rasmus, I'm very interested in your thoughts, I think you are going to have a pretty hard time with a few aspects of your plan but that is the fun of this hobby. I really enjoy a crisp clean tank, if you could make yours as crisp as that palu and Grimms recent build, but still do your thoughts of the life among death, this tank will be stunning and best of all something out of the ordinary, and it will also give Grimm a run for his money , ( which will hopefully spark a new project for Grimm so we can all enjoy his in-depth amazing build threads  ). Good luck!


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Haha, given that this is my first attempt at this vivarium thing I'm afraid that your trust might be somewhat misplaced. But thanks for the confidence vote! I'm hoping that this tank will be a bit different at least. I will for example not build a background as I have seen most people do. Since I've been into aquascaping for a while, maybe I have picked up something there about how they approach the whole thing. Then there is good different and bad different..


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

GRIMM said:


> That is one sexy, clean looking tank. Is it ADA?
> 
> And Im not sure what your design ideas are, but maybe this one will inspire you a bit. Its definitely one of my all time favorites, it has a very nice shoreline, and has similar dimensions to your tank. Not quite a swamp, but the majority of the substrate is definitely under water.
> 
> ...


Is this one of yours?? Would love to be able to get more information on it--I love the appearance...firebellies would be great in it along with Neons...


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Judy S said:


> Is this one of yours?? Would love to be able to get more information on it--I love the appearance...firebellies would be great in it along with Neons...


Haha hell no, I wish I had hardscaping skills like that...Just google "ADA Aquascaping Contest Seah Ming Chuen" and you should find a good link.

And Ramus, I have faith in this build too. Not to many people have clean centerpiece tanks like that and then massacre the inner design lol. Plus Swedes are awesome at mostly everything lol

As for frogs, wouldnt something jumping around completely flatten delicate sundews, bladderworts, and other cps? Maybe try one that is completely aquatic. The only species that comes to mind are those african clawed frogs. They are super bland as far as looks though....Have you concidered those awesome little crabs as a land animal? A member here by the name of Mellowvision has an amazing little crab palu that could help you also.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Uhh, those African clawed frogs are an eyesore. The bloated yellow ones even worse. Hmm, maybe I should take it easy with my frog bashing on my first day at the frog board 
You have a valid concern though, especially since sundews are on the top of my list of plants I want to grow. I will have to choose the fauna with respect to that. That's why I'd like a small toad. I view them as crawling more than jumping. I think I'll grow bladderworts submerged, but I don't think those will be as sensitive as the sundews anyways. I'm also worried about how the decay theme will affect the carnivorous plants due to nutrient reasons. RO is your friend, but maybe not good enough. But hey, this could go in a million directions, I'd be surprised if it ends up anywhere near what I'm imagining


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I missed the part about the crabs. They are real cute and funny, but they are a bit off biotope (as far as I know). Also, amphibious crabs would kill my fish. But I'll keep it in mind! Thanks


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## FIT BMX (Jun 10, 2011)

Here is the best bog tank I've ever seen!!!


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Not exactly the look I'm going for, but very interesting! Is it possible to find any more info on the tank? Thanks!


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

GRIMM said:


> Haha hell no, I wish I had hardscaping skills like that...


HAHAHA, such a lie Grimm, I just had a good laugh!


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Rasmus said:


> Uhh, those African clawed frogs are an eyesore. The bloated yellow ones even worse. Hmm, maybe I should take it easy with my frog bashing on my first day at the frog board


If they arnt overfead, Asian floating frogs (Occidozyga sp.) look like miniature bullfrogs. They are small too, so they wouldnt trample your plants as bad as a larger species. See the size of the frog compared to the duckweed in this photo:

















Ive never owned them, but have always thought they would be cool to have.


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## FIT BMX (Jun 10, 2011)

Here is the link.
Emersed aquatic plants with carnivorous plant layout - Plant Physiology & Emersed Culture - Aquatic Plant Central


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Thanks to the both of you! The frogs look great on those pics. I like the natural/dull look of them, which I think will fit with what I'm planning. I wasn't able to find any videos of them though. The "floating" part might indicate that they have the same spread-legged-and-dead-in-the-water behaviour as African clawed frogs, which is not really what I want. Has anyone kept them who can tell me a little more about their behaviour?

I haven't gotten the pvc stuff yet, but I've started to think about the hardscape. I would like to know how good the expanding foam stuff adheres to the glass. Since it will be submerged there could be quite a lot of uplift. Does it stick to silicon? If so, maybe it would be good the smear the glass with silicon first?


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Finally! My package with plumbing stuff was lost but now it's found. I know what I'll spend this weekend doing!

I've siliconed small T-shaped pieces of acrylic to the bottom and sides of the tank to prevent the foam from "unsticking" (hey, this is not my first language ) because of its buoyancy. Now I'll start with connecting the sump and playing around with the overflow. This is one happy puppy!


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

So, now I'm almost done with the plumbing. Both the inlet and the outlet should be a couple of centimeters lower though. I haven't done anything with the sump yet. I thought I'd play around with the flow and so on for a while to see if the sound is unbearably loud. If so then I'll have to come up with something creative.

When I filled it up with water both the gaskets that are against the glass were leaking. Any guesses as to how that could be? Should you grease them? Maybe I'll just have to tighten then more firmly. I have to say though, 10 liters of water is never as much as when it's on your living room floor!


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## Azriel (Jun 15, 2011)

Rasmus said:


> So, now I'm almost done with the plumbing. Both the inlet and the outlet should be a couple of centimeters lower though. I haven't done anything with the sump yet. I thought I'd play around with the flow and so on for a while to see if the sound is unbearably loud. If so then I'll have to come up with something creative.
> 
> When I filled it up with water both the gaskets that are against the glass were leaking. Any guesses as to how that could be? Should you grease them? Maybe I'll just have to tighten then more firmly. I have to say though, 10 liters of water is never as much as when it's on your living room floor!


Just tighten the gaskets more. Did you just hand-tighten? You'll probably need to use a wrench to get the leaking to stop. I can't wait to see more progress, it sounds like a neat idea you have!


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I had put the rubber ring on the wrong side  It should not be on the side with the screw-nut. I knew this, but I'd hoped to get away with it anyways because it made disassembly easier if I ever wanted to change anything. Now everything is pressure tested and it works fine. The gaskets are a bit scary though! It's enough that you accidentally bump into the pipes in the sump for them to get loose. I'm thinking about putting silicone around them or otherwise I'll never be able to sleep at night. At least around the inlet, as it will be inaccessible after I have applied the foam.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Lessons learned:
-The foam never stops expanding
-It's rather more fluid than I thought


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Yikes that is a lot of foam. If you applied all of that at the same time, take caution. Huge amounts like this have been known to crack and explode glass. The outside cures way before the middle, and it continues to expand putting pressure on the glass. If it isnt already fully cured, try poking some holes into the foam just incase.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I got a bit carried away..  I will poke some holes in it just to be sure. Thanks for the suggestion. 

I feels like it sticks really poorly to the glass though. It gets this leathery feel to it, but I doesn't stick. Or is that something that happens later? Otherwise this thing will most definitely float and I'll have to come up with some other solution.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Rasmus said:


> I got a bit carried away..  I will poke some holes in it just to be sure. Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> I feels like it sticks really poorly to the glass though. It gets this leathery feel to it, but I doesn't stick. Or is that something that happens later? Otherwise this thing will most definitely float and I'll have to come up with some other solution.


It shrinks a bit, after it's done expanding, and, I've found that it sometimes pulls off the glass when it's put on thick. The good news is, if this happens, you can just pull it off and try again.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I ended up cutting a large hole in it and that was probably a good thing! It had cured almost totally for about 10 cm and then there was a large void and uncured "non-foamy" stuff in the bottom. That could very well have ended badly when that slowly began to cure and expand under a hard shell. Good catch there! I have a trial and error approach to stuff like this, but that is only fun when the error doesn't end in a call to your insurance company


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## FIT BMX (Jun 10, 2011)

Looks good!
I hate using that foam it's a pain in the neck!!
And from experience never ever get it on your jeans or in your HAIR!! It really sticks!


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

After waiting for a week or so for my little foam mishap to resolve itself, I'm now back on track. I found a rotten birch log which I foamed into place. It's not perfectly shaped, but I think it's fine. I'd preferred something a little more branched, but on the other hand I'd like to keep it as natural looking as possible. I want to get far away from the fancy-redmoor-root-turned-upside-down-to-look-like-a-tree-look.

I then carved the foam. There is a creek running through the crack in the log and then there are flooded areas towards each side. It's difficult to see as everything is rather flat and I have a crappy camera. The submerged section of the foam might look very prominent now, but as there will be 5-10 cm of substrate in the water section I don't think it will look weird.

I'll be away for a while so I felt it was ok to submerge the foam and then let it dry before applying drylock


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Back from my trip and everything was dry. I applied some plaster to fill in the voids in the foam and to enable the paint to adhere better further on. I had used three different kinds of foam (just because I bought them in different stores) and one kind resulted in really big and brittle bubbles. It can be seen in the under water pic in my previous post. As someone warned about the foam had shrunk a little as it dried and had pulled of the glass. Do you think I'll have to fill it or is it ok if there is a small amount of stagnant water there? I'm a bit worried about bad smell as it is already


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

I really think you are heading in the wrong direction.....
do you even know what kind of wood that is or if it's viv safe?
what do you plan on putting in here?
and please use the IMG coding...









how long did you wait before you put water in?


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

thats ASPEN... thats no good....


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I don't know what you refer to when you say "viv safe", but it's birch so it won't leak terpenes if that it what you mean. It has also been submerged for a long time and is already rather rotten. If viv safe means that it could be in the tank for years without falling apart or that it's sterile, then it's definitely not viv safe!

I'm not set on the fauna yet, but maybe fire-bellied toads if the environment will fit them. I don't quite get your question about the water, but I guess it was two weeks or so.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

You generally want to try to avoid putting collected things into a viv without sterilizing them first, so that's why people are asking about that wood. "viv-safe" is essentially something that is sterile, and won't cause harm to the tank from leaching, or bringing in hitchhikers of various sorts. If you just placed a rotten piece of aspen or birch in that you found outside there could be any number of parasites, bacteria, pests etc. that can cause troubles for you down the road. Especially if you plan on introducing animals to the enclosure at some point.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I don't want to sound arrogant but I kind of mistrust the whole idea of everything from the outside being detrimental. It's the same thing in freshwater aquarium while saltwater swears by their live rock/sand. I don't want to do the argument-by-authority-thing, but I'm a biochemist working in microbiology and I think the risk is small of a Swedish log that will have been out of contact with amphibians for a number of weeks will be dangerous for tropical frogs. If anything I think that all animals benefit from contact with a large microfauna. I don't want to risk hurting any animals, but I also think there is value in challenging old truths. If you have data to support your claim I'd be very interested in reading more about it.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Rasmus said:


> I don't want to sound arrogant but I kind of mistrust the whole idea of everything from the outside being detrimental. It's the same thing in freshwater aquarium while saltwater swears by their live rock/sand. I don't want to do the argument-by-authority-thing, but I'm a biochemist working in microbiology and I think the risk is small of a Swedish log that will have been out of contact with amphibians for a number of weeks will be dangerous for tropical frogs. If anything I think that all animals benefit from contact with a large microfauna. I don't want to risk hurting any animals, but I also think there is value in challenging old truths. If you have data to support your claim I'd be very interested in reading more about it.


In your post you said you weren't sure of the definition for "viv safe" so I provided you with one. I didn't realize I was going to have to provide evidence as to why it is generally safer to start with as many sterilized items as possible. I wasn't trying to start an argument, just providing a brief answer to something you said you were unsure about. 

I have no idea where you collected your rotting log from. Was it pulled out of an impaired wetland? Was it in a pristine stream away from any urbanized areas? Is the area it was collected from ever exposed to pesticides and herbicides? Do you know that the area is free of chytrid? If you don't want to risk any animals, then why are you? You might not ever see one negative affect from that log...or maybe you will. People use "viv-safe" ingredients to remove as many unknown variables as possible to prevent any potential problems down the road. You aren't alone in being a biologist on here; due to the nature of the hobby there are plenty that frequent this board and maybe some will chime in as well. 

There are hundreds of publications out there about amphibians and herbicides, diseases, etc; many which can persist in the environment for long periods of time...here's a few

Johnson, M.L., R. Speare. 2003. Survival of Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis in water: Quarantine and disease control implications, Emerging Infectious Diseases 9: 922-925

Relyea, Rick A. 2005. THE LETHAL IMPACT OF ROUNDUP ON AQUATIC AND TERRESTRIAL AMPHIBIANS. Ecological Applications 15:1118–1124. [doi:10.1890/04-1291] 

Hayes, Tyrone B. et al. Pesticide Mixtures, Endocrine Disruption, and Amphibian Declines: Are We Underestimating the Impact? Environ Health Perspect. 2006 April; 114(S-1): 40–50.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Oops, I realize that I came off as way more confrontative than I intended (and in an annoying way). It was written from a bar stool  I never intended to start an argument and I'm very grateful for all your input. I'll get back with some kind of response tomorrow.. Cheers!


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

No worries, sorry if I sounded pissed! I've been following the progress of your tank, I hope it turns out well for ya.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Just a heads up, celestial pearl danios/galaxy rasboras prefer the pH to be pretty high.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Ok, that was a short don't-drink-and-type-lesson  I realize a came off as an ass. Sorry for that. However, I still think it's an interesting question, and I plan on continuing to use non-sterilized outdoor stuff in my tank. There will be a number of months before I might add any frogs though, and I'll do my homework carefully before that. Don't you also agree it's a bit weird that live rock is so praised in the saltwater hobby while vivarium/freshwater people want to sterilize everything? Are there maybe some disaster stories here on the forum where people got problems from non-sterilized stuff? I'd be interested in hearing about them in that case.

Regarding this particular log it was taken at a mountain in an area with no risk of herbicides or pesticides. The only influx of water was rain. We don't have chytrid here. There will of course be some background of endocrine disruptors from ftalates or whatever, but that will be true for any wood. Also, that would not be affected by heat treatment. I realize that there are some parasites that can survive outside the host for extended periods of time, but on the other hand your inhabitants should also benefit from a lager variety of "snack animals" as well as a more diverse bacterial flora.

Regarding the galaxy rasboras my understanding was that since the first type location was slightly alkaline it was assumed that high pH was necessary. Later on they found the fish in a variety of locations with pH ranging from low 6 to 8 something. I have personally bred them in 6.2 without problems and I know of people why have gone much lower. I'm aiming at a pH of about 6.3 or so, so I think it will be fine. Thanks!


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## drutt (Oct 4, 2011)

håller med dig....


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Det glädjer mig


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

If you use wood you found from outdoors, you risk exposing the frogs to a variety of biological factors to which they have no natural immunity, either bacterial, viral, fungal etc. Chytrid is just one example. The comparison to saltwater tanks is not quite fair because the main concern with contaminants in a saltwater tank are minerals, and possibly chemicals, which for the most part can be filtered. the live cultures in live rock are also frequently, to an extent, found in many of the ecosystems the salt water tank's inhabitants come from, and the inhabitants are frequently from different geographic locations, whereas the range of PDF's are mostly fairly local and isolated. Notice that very few PDF keepers keep multi species tanks. Then you have another factor, which is that PDF's tend to be bred and sold and swapped and what have you with a fairly high frequency as in the right setup they can be fairly prolific, as opposed to salt water tank inhabitants, where most people buy them and dont breed them (which is not to say that people dont, but in general...), and the introduction of ANY foreign biological could be passed on to many hobbyists.

Anyway. Phew. If I had been saying that out loud that probably would have been in one breath lol


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Leaving the discussion aside for a while I need a bit of help with an issue. I applied epoxy today and I found that there was one spot that didn't cure. It turned out that there was water leaking from there. I think what happened was that there was some residual water left somewhere and after the rest of the epoxy cured (together with heat from some lamps) pressure built up inside the foam thing which pushed out the water. I then used an injection needle and found that there was indeed some water inside the foam. I tried many places but only found water in this one spot. My question is if it's ok to apply a second layer of epoxy even if that means locking in some water. Is the purpose of the epoxy to make everything 100% watertight or mainly to reduce the surface of foam/drylock that can leak stuff?


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Covered the whole thing in silicon mixed with peat and sphagnum. Waiting for the peat to sink. It's very swampy!


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Rasmus said:


> Covered the whole thing in silicon mixed with peat and sphagnum. Waiting for the peat to sink. It's very swampy!


Man this is looking really cool. Keep up the good work. BTW are you going to keep the water that high permanently? (the height in the last pic)


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Any updates? How are things going?


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

At the moment it looks like this  It was finally starting to grow in and then the whole thing detached and floated to the surface. I will rebuild it during Christmas as I felt that the land part was a little too low and that I didn't make good use of the whole tank. Sucks a little, but it's the building part that is the most fun anyways


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Rasmus said:


> At the moment it looks like this  It was finally starting to grow in and then the whole thing detached and floated to the surface. I will rebuild it during Christmas as I felt that the land part was a little too low and that I didn't make good use of the whole tank. Sucks a little, but it's the building part that is the most fun anyways


Sweet thanks for the update. Sorry to hear that it 'broke' apart. Good luck with the rebuild, I can't wait to see what comes next. 

Watch out for that Hydrocotyle leucocephala, it gets pretty rampant...keep it under control! But it is a great plant. Are those Drosera at the left? I love carnivorous plants, wish I had a place to grow some.


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## Lbacha (Sep 7, 2011)

The hardscape floating is the biggest concern I have with the build I'm working on right now as well, it is going to be a rock stream scape (With the ability to raise and lower the water level from 4" to 12") all my rocks are foam and as we know foam likes to float, my plan is to attach them to a sheet of eggcrate the size of the bottom of the tank with wireties through the foam, I'm then going to insert it into the tank and silicone glass strips along the edges to hold it in place, I have also considered drilling 3/8" holes in the bottom of the tank and screwing the whole thing down with either acrylic or stainless steel bolts with rubber washers, I will then put screen over the eggcrate and put about 2-3" of substrate over it to also help hold it down. Hopefully this helps you.

Len


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I've had hydrocotyle in aquariums before, so I've seen how much of a pest it can be. But this tank is easy to do pruning in so I think it will be fine. Yup, that is drosera. It doesn't show in that crappy picture, but it's really beautiful with those glistening drops. I plan to have more of them, just wanted to see if I could keep them happy first.

I plan to rebuild the hard scape using styrofoam instead of foam. Do you think it's ok to silicone the pieces together and then to the bottom? It will be even larger than this one, so at least 100kg of lift. 

If anyone is interested, what happened for me was that I had siliconed t-shaped pieces of acrylic to the bottom and they were then imbedded in the foam to keep it down. However, it turned out that silicon doesn't adhere well to acrylic and they got loose. If I were to do it with foam again I would do the same thing, but with glass t-pieces instead.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Eventhough it didn't quite work out with this build I could maybe say a few words about what I did. 









After the peat sunk it looked something like this.









A few neon tetras had the privilege of having the tank for themselves.









How my finger turned out after manually smearing epoxy and silicone everywhere.









Planted some drosera in sphagnum. It took several weeks for it to grow in and get happy.









I smeared the trunk with moss that I took from a bonsai tree in a garden shop. All kinds of funny things started to grow after a couple of weeks.









Overview when it's newly planted. Didn't take any more pictures and then the little accident came along


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Rasmus said:


> If anyone is interested, what happened for me was that I had siliconed t-shaped pieces of acrylic to the bottom and they were then imbedded in the foam to keep it down. However, it turned out that silicon doesn't adhere well to acrylic and they got loose. If I were to do it with foam again I would do the same thing, but with glass t-pieces instead.


A similar thing happened to me with my paludarium build. I didn't know that silicone doesn't permanently bond to acrylic, and I used it for the partition in the paludarium. Then people on the forum told me it was going to leak...so I changed my plan and decided to drill holes in the partition and use it just as a structural way to hold the land area up, but to have it wet like a bog. It's turned out great so far.

I wish there was more info around for people to find out that acrylic and silicone don't work together, before it's too late


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Ok, here goes The swamp 2.0.









Bought some styrofoam 









Used two tubes of silicone for attaching the foam, but I still have a bad gut feeling about this.. I'll give it a try though.









The water will be at about this level.









Covered it in some cement-based thing which I don't know the English word for.

Does anyone know how long the cement will raise the pH if you don't use some acid to speed the process? How much will it help to cover it with epoxy? It can still leak water from underneath.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Did the peat thing and just started planting. Nothing has started to grow yet, but this is how it looks right now.
The black towards the back is moss that hasn't taken off yet. The sphagnum will be covered with various types of sundews.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Hmm, noticed that the background looks black. It's not, it's very peaty. I think it's an artifact from iphone's take-several-shots-with-different-exposure-thing.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

I really like version 2.0...best of luck to you


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Thanks! It was a bit tedious to restart just as it was taking off, so it's fun to finally start planting now.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Some more pictures..

There are only galaxy rasbora and lampeye in the tank at the moment, but I've ordered a pair of Betta uberis. Still looking for an amphibian which will fit my tank..


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## MrMonterrubio (Sep 29, 2011)

Looking great.


I might even steal the idea of the underwater peat moss substrate.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Thanks. Just beware that it might lower your pH quite substantially (to less than 6)


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## FIT BMX (Jun 10, 2011)

The rebuild looks great!!!


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## MrMonterrubio (Sep 29, 2011)

I will run a lot of tests before deciding between Peat Moss or Aquasoil.


I totally love your tank men. I'm doing a swamp tank too, check it out and give me a couple of recomendations.


I think that your tank needs (badly) a newt or a salamander.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I would so very much like to have a newt, but sadly it gets too warm in my tank (about 23 degrees at least). The thing about bog plants (of which I don't have a lot right now, but I'm ordering) is that they require so much light. High on light and low on nutrients is kind of their thing. So in order to grow sundews, which is what I'm planning to do, I have to have several fluorescent tubes and that makes it too warm for newts/salamanders. 

I've been keeping my eyes on your build as well. Looking great! Maybe you also want to think about the light/nutrients/temperature-thing if you want your swamp to contain bog plants (such as many carnivorous plants) and newts.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Finally got around to raising the lamps. I'm already much more happy with how it looks! Stuff is slowly growing in as well..


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Rasmus said:


> Finally got around to raising the lamps. I'm already much more happy with how it looks! Stuff is slowly growing in as well..


Looks awesome! In my opinion, you should add some kind of small reed or rush type plants either in the land, or growing emergent, or both. Something emergent from the water (roots/stems in water, leaves growing above) would tie things together a bit more and make it more dynamic and balanced. But still, it looks amazing and I love it!


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## Azriel (Jun 15, 2011)

That looks pretty nice!


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Thanks! I totally agree about the reeds, but I haven't been able to find anything that doesn't grow meters high. Any suggestions? I have some hydrocotyle verticillata from version 1 that almost died but I managed to save one small leaf. That one will grow emerged with the roots in water, but a reed would of course look much better. Does anyone know a store where I could find a good selection of sundews and that ship international? Would be very much appreciated!


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Oh, by the way. The small orange plant on the previous pictures is a lily pad. I think that will help some with the tying-together-part once it flowers.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

You could search around at a variety of carex species that won't grow multiple meters in height. Carex grayi will grow between 1-2 feet, same with Carex hystericina, as well as Carex intumescens. I'm not sure about the availability in Europe, but you can buy them over here as bare root plants or as seeds. I'm sure there's plenty of European species that would stay around that same height as well.

You could also check out some horsetail species. Dwarf horsetail (Equisetum scirpoides) stays under a foot and is pretty neat looking. Looks like a variety is even on amazon http://www.amazon.com/Dwarf-Horsetail-Equisetum-scirpoides-striatum/dp/B002XARHYW and some other places


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I really like the dwarf horsetail and I've found a retailer in Sweden. However, it says that it likes lime rich soils which is very far from my RO water. Do you think that will be an issue? My real favorite is dwarf cattail, but it grows a little too high. I think I will give it a try anyways though. Thanks for the suggestions!


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Rasmus said:


> Thanks! I totally agree about the reeds, but I haven't been able to find anything that doesn't grow meters high. Any suggestions? I have some hydrocotyle verticillata from version 1 that almost died but I managed to save one small leaf. That one will grow emerged with the roots in water, but a reed would of course look much better. Does anyone know a store where I could find a good selection of sundews and that ship international? Would be very much appreciated!


That Hydrocotyle species, in my opinion, is not good for tanks. It grows too fast. It also likes high humidity. In my experience, in low humidity (open top tanks like yours) the leaves will usually brown around the edges anyway.

I don't know any reed type plants off the top of my head other than maybe one of the larger Eleocharis species...but to grow emergent they can't be in deep water. There may be some smaller Juncus species but I'm not sure if they grow in warmer conditions or not.

I think you should contact a user on this forum named Hydrophyte..their page is here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members/hydrophyte.html
That user works a lot with ripariums where a lot of the plants are emergent, and I bet they could suggest some species and sources.
Here is one of Hydrophytes nice threads http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/41905-few-my-planted-ripariums.html

Finally, for carnivorous plants and suppliers, I would join, explore and post on Terraforums Terra Forums Carnivorous Plant Discussions - Powered by vBulletin

And I just found this nursery which only ships seeds internationally but you might want to check it out Carnivorous Plants | Carnivorous Plant Nursery


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Wow, thanks a lot. I know that hydrocotyle grows well emersed in my tank (at least in version 1). The water feature and the warm water keeps the humidity high. I will take a look at your other links.


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

on carnivorous plants, if you are considering NEPENTHES, be VERY CAREFUL OF WHO YOU BUY FROM


There are TONS of nurseries/stores that sell Nepenthes and they will all say "in a 3" pot"...but many MANY of them sell tiny plants.


I did a fair bit of research and imho buying from other users on the CP forums (just google nepenthes forums) is the best way, but there are a few good greenhouses too. I would HIGHLY recommend asking for a picture if its your first time doing business with them esp if you plan to buy multiple plants. 

I almost bought from a random nursery with good prices, but I ended up paying (barely) more and getting plants that were 4x larger and had already developed 6" pitchers on them instead !


EDIT: Although looking at your setup, SARRACENIA is probably a better choice. Nepenthes do not like sitting in water and are prone to root rot whereas Sarracenia are often grown with the pots sitting in 1"+ of water.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Thanks, but I'm only planning to keep sundews there as far as carnivorous plants go. Maybe some bladderworts in the water. I have a Venus flytrap there now, but that's only out of frustration that no store I've been to has been stocking sundews


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

Meadowview has good sundews if you need more. You might want some Australian sundews such as drosera binata or drosera adeleae. As far as pitcher plants go, if you ever decide you want some, I know one of the best places to buy them from (in my opinion)


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

If you don't already have it in there, try some live sphagnum moss. that would look awesome! Again, just suggestions because sphagnum moss grows well with sundews and other carnivorous plants, but again, Meadowview has gallons of live sphagnum moss for around 15$!


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I think D. binata is very beautiful, but i think something lower would look better. Do you know of any such sundews which doesn't need hibernation?


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I've ordered live spagnum, but I'm beginning to suspect that I was ripped of because I haven't received anything and they don't answer my mails. But it's definitely something I want!


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

brinkerh420 said:


> If you don't already have it in there, try some live sphagnum moss. that would look awesome! Again, just suggestions because sphagnum moss grows well with sundews and other carnivorous plants, but again, Meadowview has gallons of live sphagnum moss for around 15$!





Rasmus said:


> I think D. binata is very beautiful, but i think something lower would look better. Do you know of any such sundews which doesn't need hibernation?


d. adeleae and d. capensis are smaller and don't need dormancy. Meadowview is where I order from for the sphagnum moss , but I don't think they shp out of the country


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## MrMonterrubio (Sep 29, 2011)

About the plants you are looking for, that you want them to emerge from the water... I also recomend the Dwarf Horse tail. Easy to care, easy to trim, slow growing.

Apart from that one, I haven't used any of the following, but I'm planning to use some of them for my Swamp Tank.

The Spike Rush acording to this page, it only grows 12" 

I also like the DWARF UMBRELLA PALM but it is a fast growing one.

Maybe the Thalia Dealbata may also workout for you

Here are other candidates Typha minima, Mimosa pudica, Dwarf Papyrus, Dwarf Variegated Sweet Flag, an Otawarii Dwarf Bamboo, or a Simon Bamboo, for a one with flowers go for the Orontium Aquaticum, or the LYSIMACHIA NUMMULARIA, and finally the Water Celery

These are the plant I have already investigated for my tank, so depending on wich ones I can actually find here on Mexico, I will choose the winner.

Hope this helps, pal.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Thanks a lot all of you for your help! I have found a number of plants I'm interested in, but I can't seem to find a shop which ships plants (not seeds) to Sweden/EU any during the winter. Either sundews or pond plants. Any help is much appreciated!


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## carbonetc (Oct 13, 2008)

It isn't really necessary to buy live sphagnum unless you need a lot of it right away. Dried sphagnum that you buy at a nursery (cheap) will come back to life pretty quickly in the right conditions.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

That was what I was hoping mine would do! Doesn't seem to work though. Maybe the conditions are wrong, but I can't see why in that case. 216W of fluorescent light over the tank and the moss ranges from totally soaked to rather dry depending on the position in the tank. RO and acidic water. I bought one of these heat-treated solid blocks of dried sphagnum because that was all I could find. Does it still tend to come back to life?


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## mitcholito (Dec 30, 2011)

Rasmus said:


> That was what I was hoping mine would do! Doesn't seem to work though. Maybe the conditions are wrong, but I can't see why in that case. 216W of fluorescent light over the tank and the moss ranges from totally soaked to rather dry depending on the position in the tank. RO and acidic water. I bought one of these heat-treated solid blocks of dried sphagnum because that was all I could find. Does it still tend to come back to life?


Those sphagnum blocks are heat sterilized and will not start to grow.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Ah, I was afraid that would be the case. I've ordered some new dried but not sterilized moss now. 

I've got fry! My lampeyes have been naughty behind my back and here is the result. I'm not sure they will last though, because they are too brave for their own good when they are swimming right at the surface.

I also got an African dwarf frog. It was not my first choice, but it was the only amphibian I could find which I thought would do well in my tank. I like the bland look which I think fits well with the theme, but I don't like the way it floats in the water. To be honest it was a bit of an impulse buy and something I might regret further on.

The Venus flytrap is doing well, but I might throw it out when I finally get my hands on some sundews (maybe late 2016 or so). Damn this cold country and bad shipping!


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Hm, the one with the fry disappeared. It's cool that they have their blue eyes eventhough they're just 2mm long.


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## MrMonterrubio (Sep 29, 2011)

African Dwarf Frogs are great pets.


I had some of them like 2 years ago, they are very sociable, so you might want to get a couple more frogs.


Your tank is awesome, man


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Have you seen this one? 

Emersed aquatic plants with carnivorous plant layout - Plant Physiology & Emersed Culture - Aquatic Plant Central


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

I saw that a few months ago. It was like terrarium of the month or something. The plants are all mature and they all look great. It is so lush in there...


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## Lbacha (Sep 7, 2011)

If you are looking for some high quality miss that will revive try the new Zealand uncut sphagnum that www.repotme.com has it almost looks like its right out of the bog still moist and everything, it's a great jewel orchid medium as well and base for growing out aquatic mosses emersed.

Len


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Yeah, someone linked to that tank earlier in this thread. It's a stunning tank, but not exactly what I'm going for in this build. It's too green and artificial looking I think. I'm going for a more natural look.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Rasmus said:


> Yeah, someone linked to that tank earlier in this thread. It's a stunning tank, but not exactly what I'm going for in this build. It's too green and artificial looking I think. I'm going for a more natural look.


Whoops. I thought I read the whole thread. Weird. Must have missed it. You're going for a more temperate look?


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Exactly. I will probably have to use mainly tropical species, since I wouldn't like to deal with dormancy, but the look I'm going for is a temperate bog. If I ever get around to fixing cooling I'd like to do a Swedish swamp biotope.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Any updates? I like this build and hope you keep posting updates!

By the way, there's been discussion lately that temperate mosses do not require a dormancy. I think I read that it has to do with overall lower temperatures throughout the year in general, as opposed to a specific colder period. It probably depends on the moss species as well.

I just gathered a bunch of temperate moss samples to try in my paludarium, so we will see how they do. I have a (unsubstantiated) theory that temperate mosses need more air movement than tropical ones.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I've been busy with other stuff and haven't really been giving the tank any love at all. Which was partly why I moved from aquascaping to vivs; the ability to neglect them for a couple of weeks without disastrous consequences. The Venus flytrap flowers and I was very happy to see that one sundew made it from version one. I guess it went into hibernation when it dried out. I have gotten my dried-but-not-sterilized sphagnum and it's been in the tank for a week, but nothing yet. Maybe it takes longer for the spores to come alive?


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Hmm, can we only upload really small pictures now or have I reached some kind of limit?


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

And now I can't figure out how to edit posts. Stroke or weird forum?  Anyways, here are the pictures a little larger.


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

1. You can't edit after 30 minutes or something like that.

2. If you want a temperate look, but no dormancy, get some hybrids if you can. Some sundew like D. Intermedia "cuba" 




3. My sphagnum was planted about 4 weeks ago and just sprouted some new moss. So, you might need to wait a little bit longer.

4. Your venus flytraps look awesome! Great, big flowers and everything. Good Job 

Will


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

A very late thanks for your input  The tank is just slowly growing in, with some new additions and some setbacks. I've never had such a low maintenance tank. Change some water every three weeks and feed the fish 1-2 a week (there is quite a lot of microfauna for them to eat). Here is an update on what has been going on.









The Venus flytrap flowered beautifully but sadly it seems to be feeling very tired afterwards. I don't really mind though, since my long term plan is to have only sundews.

















The sphagnum came alive after a month, just like you said.

















The weather here finally allows for shipping of plants!! I've added some amphibious and floating plants and I'm waiting for them to grow in. This also means that I can start to order sundews.









My frog escaped (what happened to "fully aquatic"?!), which I'm feeling bad about. Got a pair of dwarf gouramis instead. I like them, but I'm also a bit annoyed with myself for not trying harder to find the Betta uberis I've been dreaming about.









The other moss has finally grown in nicely.









And an overwiew. It's annoying that it's impossible to get good overview shots with my phone. The water part always looks so dark and the photo is not at all representative.

All in all I'm rather happy with the tank now that I've started with the amphibious plants. Next step is the sundews. On the other hand I can see why people do rainforest tanks and non-open tanks because there is not that much room to play with here. It's very 2D if you understand what I mean. Therefore I'm slowly starting to think of using this tank as the aquatic part of a large more classical riparium. We'll see..


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

I'm liking this thing, it looks really cool! I like how natural it looks with all the peat and detritus, and the log and land just "melting" into the water. Some nice plants in there as well. The picture looks good to me- I think the darker water area in the pic adds a mysterious feel to it. If you have adobe photoshop you could blend two photos together so you have one exposed for the land area and one exposed for the water area, and you combine them into one. But you would need to stabilize your phone and make sure both pics are exactly the same angle. That's what I did with my paludarium photo.


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

Nice! I also love the flow of the land in the water. Good job nursing that sphagnum back to life!

If you are still looking for sundews, you could probably order from seeds from places around the world. (California Carnivores, rarexoticseeds.com, etc.) 

Looks like everything is doing nice, and the VFT's will get tired after blooming because of the energy it takes. I just clip my VFT flowers off before they bloom.


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## FIT BMX (Jun 10, 2011)

Looks great!!


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Thanks all of you! 
Will the flytraps get back to health or will they just wither away now?


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

They should get back to health, but remember how much energy they just used. You might want to try to get some ants from outside (The bigger ones) and feed the VFTs.


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

> The Venus flytrap flowered beautifully but sadly it seems to be feeling very tired afterwards. I don't really mind though, since my long term plan is to have only sundews.





> They should get back to health, but remember how much energy they just used. You might want to try to get some ants from outside (The bigger ones) and feed the VFTs.


Yea VFTs use up A LOT of their energy in flowering. Something else to consider is dormancy period though. If you do want to attempt to keep your VFT you need to give it a dormancy period. If you end up doing that you will probably want all temperate sundews as well.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

I see. I've tried to feed them frozen fish food, but I'm not sure if it's working. They close but then they reopen rather fast and the never get rid of the residues. Do I need to feed them if I don't let them flower? I don't want to do the dormancy thing if I can get avoid it. I'm not super into the plant thing (yet) and to me it's more important that it looks nice and is relative low maintenance.


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

The insects need to be live! Venus Flytraps have evolved to wait until there is movement inside the trap to secrete digestive juices.

You don't need to worry about dormancy for a while because they flower in the spring. You still have another few months until it will start to die back.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Rasmus said:


> I see. I've tried to feed them frozen fish food, but I'm not sure if it's working. They close but then they reopen rather fast and the never get rid of the residues. Do I need to feed them if I don't let them flower? I don't want to do the dormancy thing if I can get avoid it. I'm not super into the plant thing (yet) and to me it's more important that it looks nice and is relative low maintenance.


First of all, you don't NEED to feed them. Second, you can cut the flower spike off before it develops, which will save the plant a lot of energy. And third, as the above poster said, Venus fly traps need live prey to eat. If you look at the innner part of the trap/leaves carefully, you will notice several 'hairs'. These are sensitive trigger hairs, and it is the CONTINUOUS movement of the prey, once the trap has closed, which signals the plant to seal the trap and release digestive enzymes. Its quite cool. In fact, in order for the trap to be triggered, those hairs need to be touched a couple of times within a time period. This aids in preventing wind blown objects from triggering the trap and wasting valuable energy. 

Jake


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

jacobi said:


> First of all, you don't NEED to feed them. Second, you can cut the flower spike off before it develops, which will save the plant a lot of energy. And third, as the above poster said, Venus fly traps need live prey to eat. If you look at the innner part of the trap/leaves carefully, you will notice several 'hairs'. These are sensitive trigger hairs, and it is the CONTINUOUS movement of the prey, once the trap has closed, which signals the plant to seal the trap and release digestive enzymes. Its quite cool. In fact, in order for the trap to be triggered, those hairs need to be touched a couple of times within a time period. This aids in preventing wind blown objects from triggering the trap and wasting valuable energy.
> 
> Jake


EXACTLY!
They don't need to be fed although it can be very beneficial to the plant if you have insects at your hand anyways.

Two of the six hairs much be touched within 20 seconds of each other for it to close. (Inner trigger hairs not the ones that close on each other.)


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Ok, thanks. I'll try to feed them some live ants to see if they start to look better. I knew that the hairs have to be touched in order for the trap to close, but I didn't know that continuous movement was needed for secretion.


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## MrMonterrubio (Sep 29, 2011)

Thins viv is a winner.

It looks so natural. The moss looks amazing, Which tipe of moss you used?


About the frog, sorry to hear that, but maybe the frog id hiden somewhere.

Sometimes it pased 1 month before I could see my frogs in my tank


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Thanks! The moss on the log and behind it is mix of ground up mosses that I've collected outdoors and the light green is dried sphagnum from a garden store.


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