# Blue jeans pumilio



## choco (May 1, 2009)

How much would you expect to pay for an individual (both WC and CB)? 

How much for a probable pair?

Thanks much!


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

the price for these guys are about $600-$800


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

Wow, thanks Julio! I must be really lucky then as I'm getting a better deal. I guess it pays to go through the same individual for most of my frogs. ^-^


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If your getting a lot better deal (say less than $400 a frog) then you are probably not getting true Costa Rican Blue Jeans but one of the similar morphs that are coming in out of Panama and have been sold for as low as $60... 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Ed said:


> If your getting a lot better deal (say less than $400 a frog) then you are probably not getting true Costa Rican Blue Jeans but one of the similar morphs that are coming in out of Panama and have been sold for as low as $60...
> 
> Ed


i agree, you better ask for pics, or you are gonna wind up with mancreeks.


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

Oh, believe me I am! Unless they're bright red with nice shiny blue legs, its no deal.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Even if they are those colors, that doesn't mean they're blue jeans pumilio.


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

In that case, what would you consider proof then?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

That they aquired them back in the late 1980s/early 1990s or proof that they got them from someone who has BJ pumilio that got them back in the 1980s or early 1990s. 
There have been multiple ads on kingsnake advertising BJ pumilio when the pumilio being offered are not true BJs but a similar morph that was recently imported. So there are not a few people out there that believe they have BJs but were taken in by bad advertising... 

Ed


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

They would have to descend from animals exported from Costa Rica back in the 80s or 90s - there are very few people working with those pumilio. 

Many importers/wholesalers/resellers call any pumilio with dark legs and a reddish body a 'blue jeans' pumilio. Currently, the man creek/almirante morph from Panama fits those criteria. Man creek leg coloration can range from grey to blue to almost black.

*oops - Ed beat me to it!


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

Why do they have to be descended from the 80/90's? Have there been no more imports since that time at all? How do we know that what we perceive to be a blue jeans from then is any more true then ones that they're importing now? Was there such good data collection then, but none done now?

Thank you for replying and explaining. I'm trying to learn as much as possible in order to make the most educated decision that I can.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Costa Rica has not allowed exports of dart frogs since then - that is why the obligate egg feeders from that country are so rare in the trade. Historically, the hobby has not had good luck with sustaining obligate egg feeders in captivity. 

The pumilio currently being imported into the hobby are being exported from Panama. That is why Panamanian morphs, such as Man Creek, Almirante, Solarte, Bastimentos and the like are typically less expensive.

If you like the frogs, and feel you can provide the proper husbandry, then go for it! Just please don't pass them or any future offspring off as something they are not.


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

I wouldn't try to sell something for anything other then what it is. If I do not know what kind they truly are, then that is what I will say. 

Is it possible that there are WC blue jeans being illegally imported and sold into the frogging trade?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Yes it is possible but its not probable that they would appear here in the USA unless it is part of a sting operation. The smuggling trade is more profitable to ship them to Japan or Europe. If they were smuggled into the USA they probably wouldn't be offered up to random froggers.... 

There have been multiple repeated attempts to pass off imported Panamanian frogs as Costa Rican Blue Jeans and this advertising is actually pretty common which is why I and the others are so skeptical. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Zach has it correct, there have been no imports from CR since the fairly early 1990s. 

Ed


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

That makes a lot of sense. I wonder why the individual I'm working with is attempting to sell off these frogs for what they're not. He's an intelligent individual and I know he's been into frogs/amphibians and reptiles for a long time. It does make me wonder what else he may have pulled on others, or on myself. *sigh* 

Dishonesty is a quality I find to be very repugnant, especially when its something that could potentially harm something, in this case, the frogging community. If someone were to purchase fake blue jeans and unknowingly attempt to sell them/their offspring as thus, it could potentially completely dilute the few true blue jeans we have left. And that would be a sad thing indeed.


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

Is there any place on Dendroboard where dishonest vendors are listed, or is it "you just know if you know" kind of policy?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I remember going to a local breeder's home and looking at all his frogs for the first time (this is during the very beginning of my career as a frogger) and I asked him if he had any blue jeans. He told me he did, and showed me and sure enough he had red frogs with blue legs. I exclaimed "awesome! I saw these guys on my trip to Costa Rica" and he then had to inform me that they're actually Man Creeks, not true Costa Rican blue jeans.

Blue Jeans seems to be an umbrella word to entice newer individuals to their morphs which include the Man Creeks, Almirante, True Blues and even, on occasion, Black Jeans. This is all to say that just because he's advertising them as Blue Jeans doesn't mean he's necessarily intentionally being misleading. Ask him for locality information, make sure you ask if they're "True Costa Rican Blue Jeans." If you're getting them for 100 - 150 he'll probably tell you they're actually Man Creeks. If he's selling them for around that price and he tells you they are True Blues... they're still probably Man Creeks.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

choco said:


> I wonder why the individual I'm working with is attempting to sell off these frogs for what they're not. He's an intelligent individual and I know he's been into frogs/amphibians and reptiles for a long time.


If this vendor has been in the hobby for a long time then it is possible he has "true" blue jeans. Now that you have been provided with the back story on them you should discuss the topic with the vendor, check his sources, and see what he says before claiming dishonesty. Good luck.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Ask for SVLs. There's a bit of a difference between Costa Rican Blue Jeans and the Almirante/Man Creeks.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

So to clarify, true blue jeans are over $400-500 per frog if you can find one in the first place? Just a question, how many people do you think have them in the US?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

JoshH said:


> So to clarify, true blue jeans are over $400-500 per frog if you can find one in the first place? Just a question, how many people do you think have them in the US?


Yes....

I think most of those people who do have True Blues are more inclined to keep that under wraps to keep from being horded with e-mails about waiting lists and pictures and husbandry information. One thing's for sure, it's not a lot.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Well Costa Rica or Nicaragua, and you should be getting them CB from a known long-time keeper/breeder of them specifically (that's all you SHOULD be able to get anyway)


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Just to stir the pot, was there some ICZN declaration that orange frogs with blue legs from Costa Rica were officially "Blue Jeans" and that orange frogs with blue legs from Panama were never to be referred to as such? 'Cause if so, I must have missed the memo, and it's possible whoever has these frogs missed it as well. And, assuming this memo did go out, did it say what orange frogs with blue legs from Nicaragua were to be labeled, or whether all orange frogs with blue legs from anywhere in Costa Rica were "Blue Jeans," or just certain ones, and if so, which certain ones?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

as it hasn't been mentioned above, one reason there are so few true CR bluejeans is because they have proven to be extremely fragile even as pumilio go. the poster just signed up and is asking questions about a morph that is very rare and very seldom seen for sale even to experienced froggers. i dont know your background and im not trying to make assumptions but based on the questions you are asking , even if they are true bluejeans, would you want to risk the very hefty amount of money, on a frog that has proven difficult even for those with experience, on a first or near first frog? 

i think one thing to remember is a golden rule (in my book) when it comes to purchasing nearly anything... if it seems too good to be true (for example if the frogs in question are being sold under the already discussed low price of $400) then it probably is.

james


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Catfur said:


> Just to stir the pot, was there some ICZN declaration that orange frogs with blue legs from Costa Rica were officially "Blue Jeans" and that orange frogs with blue legs from Panama were never to be referred to as such? 'Cause if so, I must have missed the memo, and it's possible whoever has these frogs missed it as well. And, assuming this memo did go out, did it say what orange frogs with blue legs from Nicaragua were to be labeled, or whether all orange frogs with blue legs from anywhere in Costa Rica were "Blue Jeans," or just certain ones, and if so, which certain ones?


No more than there was an official label that a cat was a cat and not a dog or a gold fish. If I purchased a blue and black auratus from you and you send me a standard green and black and make that claim, it would be the same issue. 

Ed


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

Corpus Callosum said:


> If this vendor has been in the hobby for a long time then it is possible he has "true" blue jeans. Now that you have been provided with the back story on them you should discuss the topic with the vendor, check his sources, and see what he says before claiming dishonesty. Good luck.


I have talked this over with the vendor. He told me that he was sorry about the misinformation, but that he generally clumps all of the pumilio from that region together. I told him that I won't be purchasing them for that reason, as I am specifically looking for a blue jeans.


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

james67 said:


> as it hasn't been mentioned above, one reason there are so few true CR bluejeans is because they have proven to be extremely fragile even as pumilio go. the poster just signed up and is asking questions about a morph that is very rare and very seldom seen for sale even to experienced froggers. i dont know your background and im not trying to make assumptions but based on the questions you are asking , even if they are true bluejeans, would you want to risk the very hefty amount of money, on a frog that has proven difficult even for those with experience, on a first or near first frog?
> 
> i think one thing to remember is a golden rule (in my book) when it comes to purchasing nearly anything... if it seems too good to be true (for example if the frogs in question are being sold under the already discussed low price of $400) then it probably is.
> 
> james


James, the reason I asked what they're price is, is because I was under the impression that this might be low, I was guessing somewhere around $250-300 based on an earlier post I had read in the archives.

I am aware that they are the one of most difficult to house, let alone try to breed. I've done as much research as I can on these guys, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a whole lot on their specific upkeep, though I did find some things about experiments people have done to get healthy tads.

I did know there was a lot imported in the beginning, but I did not know that importation had completely stopped. I was under the impression that there were a few still imported on occasion. I was wrong about that, which is why I came here to ask and to seek information.

I may be new to dart frogging compared to many of you, however I very much want to learn. I would prefer to learn from others already established, however many seem to be very busy with their own lives (which is entirely reasonable) and so I haven't been able to really learn hands on with them.

I do read, and have read quite a bit, however I'm the type of person who learns best by example and by seeing what needs to be done, or talking to it with someone face to face. For all the internet provides, it does not give us that the real world experience.

On a side note, I raise local tadpoles to frogs (various species) to up their chances, especially when its been as hot as it has, and their pools dry up. Most of the ones I get are from roadside puddles that are quickly fading since that various wild area has been demolished and turned into cementville. Once they morph, I then fatten them up and release them in the area where I found them, but try to find the pockets of forest that remain. I've been raising these guys for approximately 17 years, and in that time I've only lost 3 tadpoles and 5 froglets.

I may be new to darts which require a different amount of care and planning, but I've been involved with frogs for the majority of my life. I do the best I can to prepare for the kind I want in my home, no matter what it is. 

It may be many years before I am able to find someone who even has a blue jeans for sale, but if it is later or now, I am prepared to take them and do the best I can by them. If I was given them unexpectedly I would set up a temporary enclosure that meets there basic temp/humidity and lots of hiding needs. After which I would put a call out here on dendroboard and in my own community for the best advice on building them their own enclosure, to make them as happy as possible. I would like a breeding pair, but if I even had one, I would be happy. I've always liked blue jeans, even before I knew what they were. I'm fortunate enough to have enough funds saved up to both purchase them and anything that they need, because I've planned for it.

Other frogs I've purchased have always been intentionally with the knowledge that they were what I wanted, and that I could afford them, that I had the room for them, and the housing for them. These wild caught pumilio were offered to me by an individual I had purchased my first auratus from, he knew I was looking for a blue jeans and so offered them to me. Its unfortunate that they are not what he claimed them to be, and upon further inspection of other events I will not likely be dealing with him again in the future, however I am happy with the tadpoles I raised from his lot from last year (all of my frogs are happy, fat and thriving under my care, so I must be doing something right).

I do not buy any frog unless I have what they need on hand and the cash to purchase them with. For my blue jeans I have approximately $1,500 saved up for both them and their enclosure, and that money is not going anywhere else, no matter how tempted I am by another frog or setup. If I want a different species, you know what? I'm going to save up for that one too. I find this the only way I can be responsible for my own actions and not be an impulse buyer with more animals than I know what to do with, as I don't want any of my frogs to breed for the most part and will pulls eggs if necessary. The only two species I've thus far considered that I truly want to breed because I like them so much, and I'm curious about watching them reproduce, are red bastimentos and blue jean pumilios (if I can ever find a pair). 

I'm sorry if this has gotten overly impassioned and long, however this is how I feel on the subject. I love frogs. I always have, always will. Whether my local tree frogs or the rarest tropical specimen on the planet, they're important to me. My frogs I treat as the jewel treasures they are, and as a the shy hiding part of my family. They're my pets contained in their own little kingdoms that I get to watch and enjoy. Thats their purpose for me, and mine is to keep them happy and healthy.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

please dont take offense, but it still sounds like BJs migt not be the best choice, more importantly those that do have them are VERY unlikley to give them to someone without pumilio experience, and even more unlikley to give them to someone who would be putting them in temp containers. they are very fragile, as i stated, and in the past i have heard of trouble from simply moving from one enclosure to another.

it seems so fammiliar to lehmanni to me, MANY others (in that case) have tried to establish prolific breeding, but have been fruitless, and now, eventhough we have driven their range down to a TINY area there are still those that choose to procure smuggled animals because they think that they can do what the vast majority of people cant.

and BJs are different, from that situation, yes, but in either case they are TOO rare and fragile for someone with a low level of experience, especially in pumilios to attempt.

i used to keep BJs a decade ago, and i can tell you that they were not hardy by any means. 

its sad really to see how many came in and how many still exist due to their overwhelming popularity and the fact that so many people were ill informed and inexperienced. 

james

ps 1500 is enough to get a nice pair of a number of other frogs. christobal pums, have sky blue legs and some peppering on the backs and legs. they, although not a beginner frog, would be a much better choice.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Interesting thread. One question though... when we generally hear about species being fragile or difficult to breed (blue jeans in this case) I'm curious how much of that has to do with the manner in which they were collected/imported. For example, if Pepper were to bring in a species like silverstoni (sp?), which has always been deemed difficult by hobby standards, would it fare better now because of (a) better import techniques and (b) better husbandry? Just curious.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

When you say "vendor".....I am going to guess this was / is not a "sponser" or seller on this forum, as they would most likely be well aware of the correct nomenclature of the frog in question - in this case the highly coveted blue jean pumilio morph.

Be aware that it is easy to find Wild caught pumilio advertised on various exotic animal boards and classified ads. They are even sometimes refered to as "farm raised", but are all basically wild caught and sold to an importer.

The true blue jean morph is unlikely to be imported anytime soon...if ever, and even then, the amount would be small and very expensive.

The supply and demand for these has caused importers to look for a suitable replacement that is as close to the same color and pattern as possible - hence the main creeks, Almirante and various other grey legged morphs. Unscrupulous dealers and importers will go so far as to label, advertise and sell these frogs as "Blue jeans" and this is damaging to the hobby, and actual fraud in my opinion.

If you see a $60.00 pumilio, especially one that someone is calling a Blue jeans, be prepared to be supremely disapointed and for the frog to die.

The mortality rate for imported Pumilio is well over 60%. That's why the acclimated and long term captives command such a high price.

Like in any exotic animal hobby, whatever the species - look to the private breeder and captive born animals first and foremost. They are going to provide you with the best chance of success, enjoyment and customer service.


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

james67 said:


> please dont take offense, but it still sounds like BJs migt not be the best choice, more importantly those that do have them are VERY unlikley to give them to someone without pumilio experience, and even more unlikley to give them to someone who would be putting them in temp containers. they are very fragile, as i stated, and in the past i have heard of trouble from simply moving from one enclosure to another.


I am not planning on putting them into a temporary enclosure, I would only do that IF I was offered a pair unexpectedly. In 6 months to a year I'm planning on beginning a vivarium for them with specific questions for others regarding them. I'm hoping in the time from now until then that I am able to find someone who does in fact have a breeding pair who would be willing to tell me how I can best succeed in creating their habitat. After the viv is built, I'm willing to wait another year or more if necessary so that it is stable and well grown in before obtaining a blue jeans. This is a long term goal, not I need it NOW. This all started because I thought I had and unexpected chance at a pair which turned out to be false. I'm okay with waiting, it will give me time to learn and prepare more.

To note, I do have some pumilio experience, limited as it is with my bastimentos, which I will be expanding on in the next several years.



> ps 1500 is enough to get a nice pair of a number of other frogs. christobal pums, have sky blue legs and some peppering on the backs and legs. they, although not a beginner frog, would be a much better choice.


I may one day like to add this morph to my collection, however they are not what I really want. If you're going to go for you're dreams, I say go for it, even if you're aiming for the moon. With enough time and preparation, and a little little luck, you can get there.



stemcellular said:


> Interesting thread. One question though... when we generally hear about species being fragile or difficult to breed (blue jeans in this case) I'm curious how much of that has to do with the manner in which they were collected/imported. For example, if Pepper were to bring in a species like silverstoni (sp?), which has always been deemed difficult by hobby standards, would it fare better now because of (a) better import techniques and (b) better husbandry? Just curious.


I've wondered the same myself, but considering how few there are in the hobby itself, I think its more safe to assume that blue jeans in particular are extremely fragile.



Philsuma said:


> When you say "vendor".....I am going to guess this was / is not a "sponser" or seller on this forum, as they would most likely be well aware of the correct nomenclature of the frog in question - in this case the highly coveted blue jean pumilio morph.


Correct!



> Be aware that it is easy to find Wild caught pumilio advertised on various exotic animal boards and classified ads. They are even sometimes refered to as "farm raised", but are all basically wild caught and sold to an importer.
> 
> The true blue jean morph is unlikely to be imported anytime soon...if ever, and even then, the amount would be small and very expensive.


I understand this in its entirety now, and I'm very glad and thankful to everyone who has written me, and for those who have taken the time to explain.



> Unscrupulous dealers and importers will go so far as to label, advertise and sell these frogs as "Blue jeans" and this is damaging to the hobby, and actual fraud in my opinion.


I agree entirely.



> ...look to the private breeder and captive born animals first and foremost. They are going to provide you with the best chance of success, enjoyment and customer service.


I find this to be exceptionally good advice. This has been mostly what I have done, except the first time I bought my tadpoles from a gent up in Monroe (the same offering the 'blue jeans'). My other darts have come from a few other local breeders that I've really enjoyed getting to meet and that I look forward to dealing more with in the future.


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

All right, frog history!

Back in the late 80s early 90's Costa Rican frogs were imported from Nicaragua in potpourri shipments of herps. They were $8 to $12 each depending on how many you bought. The frogs were placed into one box with some packing type filler like newspaper or foam. No cups or wet moss or insulation in some cases. One shipment the frogs were packed in pink toilet tissue that stuck to them, and took a long while to rinse off. All the shipments I unpacked had a funky smell of the excreted toxins. The normal standards and packaging methods of shipping frogs contributed to most of the frogs dying shortly after landing here. After crawling around on each other most were probably toxed out.

Most of the shipments contained one type of frog with few contaminants or odd looking specimens. Either blue jeans or black jeans being most of the shipment. There were some with speckled bodies or more blue on the side from the belly area. Anyone who ever has a chance to unpack a shipment will be astonished by the variability of frogs from one place, being it auratus, tincts, pums; much differant than the 4 frogs you buy.

Like most other frogs when they become available they were everywhere for a short time. The people who buy them and breed them can't sell them because the price is low and it's not worth the effort, so they start to fade. Just look at moraspungas, panguanas, vittatus, blue auratus, mint terribilis. 

Eventually the imports stopped and over time the US population became fairly small and not all in one place. Eventually we started to pull frogs from differant collections and get them together for breeding. In the last few years we have strengthened the numbers here in captivity. Now that the frog is making a turn for the better we will start placing them into collections of proven froggers that are committed to the long term success of the frog. This will give them the best chance of longevity in captivity.

My personal experience with them is that they are the same as other pumilios. I keep around 20 pairs of varying morphs all the same set up etc. That being said frogs are variable in their productivity from pair to pair. I have one pair of mancreeks that outproduces my other 4 pairs. All on the same diet, etc. This is also true of other species in my collection.

If you are contemplating working with a rare or expensive frog start with a the most similar species/morph you can get. This will give you a chance to learn about the frog and gauge your success. When I lived in FL I had no problem breeding nominant fantasticus, once I moved out here to CA, no eggs in years. Is it lack of rain (barometric pressure flux) or just too warm, my point is where you live may affect your frog experience. Just something to consider in the grand scheme.

Get your frogs registered on Frogtracks and become a member of TWI and register your frogs by becoming a steward. Once you begin your frog journey and become a postive member, new opportunities will come in time.

Good luck
Eric


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Great input, thanks Eric.


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

Applaud! Thanks Eric, great post.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

EricM said:


> When I lived in FL I had no problem breeding nominant fantasticus, once I moved out here to CA, no eggs in years. Is it lack of rain (*barometric pressure flux*) or just too warm, my point is where you live may affect your frog experience. Just something to consider in the grand scheme.


Sorry for the 'jack but this is something I always wondered about......I just about believe this very theory. 

Great input and "time capsule" stuff Eric. Thanks for taking the time to post.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Ed said:


> No more than there was an official label that a cat was a cat and not a dog or a gold fish. If I purchased a blue and black auratus from you and you send me a standard green and black and make that claim, it would be the same issue.
> 
> Ed


Rubbish! The same issue would be if you purchased a green and black auratus from me and I sent you a green and black auratus, but from a different locale than you expected. And, anyways, where in Costa Rica is the blue jeans morph from? If I sold you a Blue Jeans and sent you a Nicaraguan animal would that be fine? If so, why? People would (rightly) have a cow if I mixed Loma Partida and a Popa North, despite the fact that they resemble each other more than the variation contained within the "Blue Jeans" morph.

Nobody disputes that the pumilio from Isla Bastimentos are different from the pumilio of Isla Popa, but nobody even gives a flying rats rear about whether the auratus from these two islands different because they're auratus and they look the same, but there may be as much genetic differentiation between the two auratus as between the two pumilio.

The fact is "Blue Jeans" is a garbage can morph (like several auratus morphs, and probably several Tinc morphs), and garbage can morphs can be very confusing, especially to people who aren't necessarily plugged in to the hobby as much as the denizens of DB or Frognet. Nobody gets their knickers in a twist about mistaking one green and black auratus for another, or one yellowback tinc from another, but because it's typographa (pumilio) everybody has to get up on their high horse and shout _Je Accuse!_ whenever someone gets all mixed up about "Blue Jeans." Labeling every orange and blue Oophaga typographa "Blue Jeans" isn't a statement of morphological purity on our part (as a hobby), it's a statement of the vast gulf of knowledge (some of which will likely never be recovered, like exactly where the heck some of these frogs came from) on our part.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I cannot disagree with any of that either......


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

I find it interesting how posts can run away, sometimes far away, from the main/beginning topic. I generally like this though, as it enable me to learn more from others and their differing opinions.

Each of you have a point about the local, and I especially find it interesting in regards to auratus (I think this could apply to many leucs too). Where are they all from? I have three auratus which are all vastly different, two are green and blacks, but even they appear to be different locals in their own way, while the third is a bronze and green froglet with parents of unknown origins.

Thinking/pondering, oh how it warms my heart


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

For the most part, anyone with blue jeans is going to provide offspring to other hobbyists who are already working with them. Most of those with blue jeans have been in the hobby for quite some time and have worked together over the years exchanging bloodlines, etc. These are far from being established in the hobby IMO. The main reason a hobbyist new to dart frogs will in general not get the chance to work with them is because the odds are against most new hobbyists sticking with it for more than a couple of years. Nothing against the new hobbyists, but that's just the way it has been and will always be. Let me repeat, there is nothing wrong with that and I'm not putting anyone down, it is what it is. If you are new to the hobby and really want to work with "true" blue jeans, stick around for 10 years or so and I can almost guarantee you will get your chance.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

choco said:


> I find it interesting how posts can run away, sometimes far away, from the main/beginning topic. I generally like this though, as it enable me to learn more from others and their differing opinions.
> 
> Each of you have a point about the local, and I especially find it interesting in regards to auratus (I think this could apply to many leucs too). Where are they all from? I have three auratus which are all vastly different, two are green and blacks, but even they appear to be different locals in their own way, while the third is a bronze and green froglet with parents of unknown origins.
> 
> Thinking/pondering, oh how it warms my heart


By the way, nothing I said should be taken to mean that the frogs you were offered were anything other than what they almost certainly are, Man Creeks (aka, random orange/red and blue Panamanian imports).


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

In time it seems the more I learn about this hobby that is not so much how much you know, but who you know in many respects in regards to availability of some of the rarer morphs and information shared. While I understand this as it is in general human nature, I also find it saddening that those that may be newer but going nowhere are more excluded unless they are in the know to the more well known individuals.

I plan on being in this hobby for an exceptionally long time and I do not might waiting. My concern with a few species that I would like to one day have in my own collection is that along with the many frogs dying in the wild, the captive collections blood lines will dilute down the line even more, as there is already massive inbreeding. I'm afraid that by the time the opportunity arises that someone goes, "oh, you've been in this long enough now that I don't think you'll screw up with this delicate morph" that there won't be any of said morph left except some of the very old and very weak (from mass inbreeding and lack of natural selection) in ten to twenty years. But then this also depends on how many generations are going on between now in then. I'll just have to wait and see, and hope for the best.


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

Catfur said:


> By the way, nothing I said should be taken to mean that the frogs you were offered were anything other than what they almost certainly are, Man Creeks (aka, random orange/red and blue Panamanian imports).


I already understand that they're not the Costa Rica blue jeans, that was evident by the end of the first page, but thanks.

I may be newer, but I'm not dense. Having virtually the same thing said in a variety of ways, I hope I would get it.

I case no one knows, I also started another short little one here with pictures of said poor sad frogs: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/identification-forum/43119-name-frog.html


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

choco said:


> In time it seems the more I learn about this hobby that is not so much how much you know, but who you know in many respects in regards to availability of some of the rarer morphs and information shared. While I understand this as it is in general human nature, I also find it saddening that those that may be newer but going nowhere are more excluded unless they are in the know to the more well known individuals.
> 
> I plan on being in this hobby for an exceptionally long time and I do not might waiting. My concern with a few species that I would like to one day have in my own collection is that along with the many frogs dying in the wild, the captive collections blood lines will dilute down the line even more, as there is already massive inbreeding. I'm afraid that by the time the opportunity arises that someone goes, "oh, you've been in this long enough now that I don't think you'll screw up with this delicate morph" that there won't be any of said morph left except some of the very old and very weak (from mass inbreeding and lack of natural selection) in ten to twenty years. But then this also depends on how many generations are going on between now in then. I'll just have to wait and see, and hope for the best.


Well, in that case, there are plenty of under appreciated frogs that one can work with. One of the reasons I like working with Mantella, for example, besides how totally rad they are, is that few folks are successfully breeding them and they are almost all seriously threatened in the wild. There are also plenty of other underappreciated species that you can cut your teeth on while waiting to acquire blue jeans. As someone new to the hobby, about 1.5 years, I can attest that it isn't so much how long one is in the hobby but rather what one does in the hobby (successful breeding, contributing to knowledge of husbandry, etc.) that facilitates access to species that are perceived to be difficult and/or are rare in the hobby. Make sense? I, for example, would only sell/trade golden mantellas to folks with some mantella experience and/or success breeding other species. Its not about time in the hobby (though I suppose you need some time to acquire, raise and breed) but rather about the reputation that you obtain from contributing to captive populations and/or successful husbandry knowledge.

Just my two cents...


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

With all due respect, and I mean that. I don't expect someone to sell me some rare morph. Nor would I want one. I would like to have some serious experience under my belt before I would want to take on a resposibiltiy like that. These people have been in this hobby for years and are only trying to protect the species. Makes perfect sense to me. They're not intentionally trying to punish people that have been in the hobby a short time. How can one say I'll be in the hobby for ten years. Nobody can say that for sure.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

choco said:


> In time it seems the more I learn about this hobby that is not so much how much you know, but who you know in many respects in regards to availability of some of the rarer morphs and information shared. While I understand this as it is in general human nature, I also find it saddening that those that may be newer but going nowhere are more excluded unless they are in the know to the more well known individuals.


While that may PARTLY be true, there could be much more to it. I started keeping darts in the mid '90s - at the time the hottest thing going were azureus at about $200 each and anyone who was anyone had them. I couldn't care less, I was totally into histrionicus and pumilio no matter what anyone said - histrionicus could be found at the time at about $40 each but pumilio couldn't really be found. I got myself a group of histrionicus (which happened to be all males) and kept them until the last one died in around '01. Around '96-'97 I kind of lost touch with the dart keeping world because at the time it wasn't always such a nice place, so I wasn't up on any news or anything. I decided to start keeping them again fairly recently, and found out that pumilio were readily had so I got some right away, and found out that histrionicus could no longer be had, which was a shame because they still were in my 2 favorite species - but guess what has been presented to me between then and now, probably because of my past with them?
Checking out some of the man creeks around (preferably from someone you would hook up with on here) might be a good idea because there are actually some that look a lot more brightly colorful in their reds and blues than some of the blue jeans that are around sometimes, and some of those blue jeans can be pretty subdued in their brightness. Just look around and see what you find.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

choco said:


> In time it seems the more I learn about this hobby that is not so much how much you know, but who you know in many respects in regards to availability of some of the rarer morphs and information shared...


Well, you can only gain so much knowledge from reading books, etc. and a lot of information on the internet needs to be taken "with a grain of salt" to say the least. There is no substitute for experience working with these animals. As you learn more through experience, going to shows, communicating with other hobbyists, you get to know people. Who you know and how much you know often go hand in hand at least in this hobby. It's not like some secret club but as I said before, as you gain experience those "who you know" people will be more accessible.



choco said:


> I plan on being in this hobby for an exceptionally long time and I do not might waiting. My concern with a few species that I would like to one day have in my own collection is that along with the many frogs dying in the wild, the captive collections blood lines will dilute down the line even more, as there is already massive inbreeding. I'm afraid that by the time the opportunity arises that someone goes, "oh, you've been in this long enough now that I don't think you'll screw up with this delicate morph" that there won't be any of said morph left except some of the very old and very weak (from mass inbreeding and lack of natural selection) in ten to twenty years. But then this also depends on how many generations are going on between now in then. I'll just have to wait and see, and hope for the best.


Inbreeding is a part of these animals natural history, yes additional bloodlines are a good thing (search on this and it has been discussed ad nauseum), but inbred dart frog bloodlines are not "old and weak" for the most part, they are not like dogs. Just some more info to chew on. Good luck and I hope you are around for "an exceptionally long time". In the meantime you should work with some of the panamaniam forms, some are even nicer looking than some of the true blue jeans.


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## fishdoc (Apr 24, 2007)

jumping into the fray...

first and foremost, i love my mancreeks!!

Second, locality, genetic purity and integrity... 

Two species can look virtually identical, and be very very different genetically- these are crytic species, ie mimics in some cases.

Two species or populations can look totally totally different, and be virtually indistinguishable genetically.

Those are important considerations when we consider what morphs are "pure," and which should not be bred to each other. I know I bought auratus, and darned if some aren't blue and black and some aren't green and black. Now is that because the breeder messed up, or it because green and black auratus have a genetic variant that produces blue? Until such time that 1) long term breeding has documented the genetics of each species and morphs, such as the past centuries with pigeons or 2) each species is explored by genetic analysis and species boundaries are determined based on genetics, the best we can do is try and not breed two morphs together, ie man creeks, blue jeans, almirante. However, that may have already happened, which is why pedigree information is so very important and reputable breeders that maintain records are so valuable. I don't think vendors are truly being dishonest, its just best guess from the time the unwrapped the pink toilet paper carries on through multiple venues until, all in all, its just a best guess. Those of us that are novice's, well we just have to hope for the best and rely on threads like this to avoid the pitfalls. Now, an important question, is there a dichotomous key developed for any of these frogs? Are there morphometric data anywhere? I'm pretty sure not a lot has been done from a genetic perspective, but I will explore that...first google scholar paper:

Phenotypic and Genetic Divergence in Three Species of Dart-Poison Frogs With Contrasting Parental Behavior 
K. Summers, E. Bermingham, L. Weigt, S. McCafferty, and L. Dahistrom 
From the Smithsonian Tropical Research institute Apartado 2072, Balboa, Republic of Panama
Department of Biology, East Carolina University Greenville, North Carolina 

Address correspondence to the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute, Unit 0948, APO AA 34002–0948, USA

Abstract

Why some species exhibit remarkable variation among populations while closely related species are relatively uniform remains unclear. The strawberry dart-poison frog (Dendrobates pumilio) exhibits spectacular color and pattern polmorphism among populations in the Bocas del Toro archipelago of Panama. In contrast, two other sympatric species of dart-poison frog, Phyllobates lugubris and Minyobates sp., show little color or pattern variation among island populations. Here we demonstrate that the color and pattern variation among populations of D. pumilio is not matched by higher levels of mitochondrial DNA sequence divergence relative to P. lugubris or Minyobates sp. Thus, neutral divergence in allopatry is unlikely to have caused the geographical differences observed in D. pumlilo. We suggest that strong sexual selection associated with female parental care in D. pumilio, which contrasts the male parental care of P. lugubris and Minyobates sp., may have driven divergence in coloration and pattern in D. pumillo.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Stir, stir and then stir some more... 



Catfur said:


> Rubbish! The same issue would be if you purchased a green and black auratus from me and I sent you a green and black auratus, but from a different locale than you expected. And, anyways, where in Costa Rica is the blue jeans morph from? If I sold you a Blue Jeans and sent you a Nicaraguan animal would that be fine? If so, why? People would (rightly) have a cow if I mixed Loma Partida and a Popa North, despite the fact that they resemble each other more than the variation contained within the "Blue Jeans" morph.


No, the problem would be if you advertised a green and black from a specific local and then sent me a green a black from a different local. If you advertised a generic green and black, then you can send me any green and black and I got what was advertised. This is why I responded that if you advertised a cat and sent me a dog or a goldfish, I would have a right to get upset. 

Blue Jeans in the hobby means, a frog that orignated in CR and was exported from Nicaragua (as noted above) during the 1980s and 1990s while Nicaragua was exporting herps to the USA and not a frog that appears similar to that frog and originated from Panama. While there is currently no formal committee that has a system of internationally accepted nomenclature, there is a accepted nomenclature in the hobby that has specific expectations based on certain names. Tinctorius is a good example of these expectations. 




Catfur said:


> Nobody disputes that the pumilio from Isla Bastimentos are different from the pumilio of Isla Popa, but nobody even gives a flying rats rear about whether the auratus from these two islands different because they're auratus and they look the same, but there may be as much genetic differentiation between the two auratus as between the two pumilio.


If no one gives a rat ass, then I guess I should tell the people over at TWI that they shouldn't bother with the auratus PMP and history as they are obviously wasting thier time.... And I think if you review my position on that topic you'll find that I do give more than a rats ass about it.... and have even spoken out on reassigning morphs based on visual appearence. 




Catfur said:


> The fact is "Blue Jeans" is a garbage can morph (like several auratus morphs, and probably several Tinc morphs), and garbage can morphs can be very confusing, especially to people who aren't necessarily plugged in to the hobby as much as the denizens of DB or Frognet. Nobody gets their knickers in a twist about mistaking one green and black auratus for another, or one yellowback tinc from another, but because it's typographa (pumilio) everybody has to get up on their high horse and shout _Je Accuse!_ whenever someone gets all mixed up about "Blue Jeans." Labeling every orange and blue Oophaga typographa "Blue Jeans" isn't a statement of morphological purity on our part (as a hobby), it's a statement of the vast gulf of knowledge (some of which will likely never be recovered, like exactly where the heck some of these frogs came from) on our part.


Actually it will only become a garbage can morph (ie describing a generic pattern of pumilio) if people choose to allow it to become one. If you and the rest of the hobby let the dealers get away with labeling any reddish pumilio with blueish legs as blue jeans then yes it will become a garbage can but currently, it describes specific imports...

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

I'm definitely no expert but I kind of agree with both Ed and Catfur -
If some vendor tried to sell me a Panamanian frog as a Blue Jeans I would probably tell him he might as well walk up to me and try to smack me in the face -
Within the Costa Rican frogs that are classified as Blue Jeans, isn't there so much variability that there are/could be multiple morphs being called Blue Jeans?


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Ed said:


> No, the problem would be if you advertised a green and black from a specific local and then sent me a green a black from a different local. If you advertised a generic green and black, then you can send me any green and black and I got what was advertised. This is why I responded that if you advertised a cat and sent me a dog or a goldfish, I would have a right to get upset.


So, Green and Black doesn't refer to a specific locality (even one as broad as a whole country), but Blue Jeans does, despite the fact that both are clearly based on a visual description, and the average joe importer/frog jobber is supposed to know this how (besides the scads of angry e-mails they probably get)? If all you had was the basic dart frog books that have been out for a long time, and weren't plugged into the hobby, why wouldn't you think that an orange frog with blue legs wasn't a blue jeans?



Ed said:


> Blue Jeans in the hobby means, a frog that orignated in CR and was exported from Nicaragua (as noted above) during the 1980s and 1990s while Nicaragua was exporting herps to the USA and not a frog that appears similar to that frog and originated from Panama. While there is currently no formal committee that has a system of internationally accepted nomenclature, there is a accepted nomenclature in the hobby that has specific expectations based on certain names. Tinctorius is a good example of these expectations.


I'm aware of what frogs this hobby assigns to the name "Blue Jeans," but are we certain that those frogs supposedly from Costa Rica via Nicaragua didn't come from Nicaragua, or elsewhere (I've read old reports of pumilo being found all the way up into Honduras)? If the origin of your frogs is "supposedly smuggled out of one country by locals and exported in shipments of miscellaneous herps from another country" you have *ZERO* claim to any statement of purity.



Ed said:


> If no one gives a rat ass, then I guess I should tell the people over at TWI that they shouldn't bother with the auratus PMP and history as they are obviously wasting thier time.... And I think if you review my position on that topic you'll find that I do give more than a rats ass about it.... and have even spoken out on reassigning morphs based on visual appearence


The fact that people jump up and down howling on message boards whenever someone misidentifies some Man Creeks as Blue Jeans, but practically nobody even notices when someone fails to apply a locality designation to the Green and Black auratus (even one as broad as Nicaraguan Green and Blacks), says all that needs to be said about the relative importance people (as a whole) place on O. pumilio/typographa vs. D. auratus. Not saying that we shouldn't be working to change attitudes, just stating what is.



Ed said:


> Actually it will only become a garbage can morph (ie describing a generic pattern of pumilio) if people choose to allow it to become one. If you and the rest of the hobby let the dealers get away with labeling any reddish pumilio with blueish legs as blue jeans then yes it will become a garbage can but currently, it describes specific imports


It's a garbage can morph now, that doesn't mean that they should be indiscriminately mixed with any red/blue pumilio, or that we should call everything red and blue "blue jeans." But you can't, in good conscience, call a morph with ZERO origin data beyond "several Central American countries" anything other than a garbage can morph. Just like you really can't call R. ventrimaculata anything other than a garbage can taxon (or D. quinquevittatus back in the day). Typographa is not a single morph in Costa Rica, and frogs with orange bodies and blue legs are reported from a number of locations throughout the country, along with frogs of differing descriptions from locations interspersed within (like Bri Bri, or Limon), that's what I would call garbage can, you must have a pretty specific definition of garbage can not to.

I'm not saying to stop segregating Blue Jeans out from Man Creeks, or that they aren't worth preserving in the hobby. I just want people to get down off of their high horse and stop condemning people making easy mistakes. I also wish that people would assign value to frogs a little more rationally, and stop assuming morphological purity based on perceptions of value. And just because I am painting "people" with a broad brush doesn't mean I include you in specific (or anyone else in specific), when I say people in the general sense.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Catfur said:


> I just want people to get down off of their high horse and stop condemning people making easy mistakes.


I would also agree with that, but anyone in the business of selling dart frogs that calls man creeks "blue jeans" knows exactly what they're doing


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

ChrisK said:


> I would also agree with that, but anyone in the business of selling dart frogs that calls man creeks "blue jeans" knows exactly what they're doing


Given that a significant fraction of the importers/jobbers haven't got the foggiest clue what they are doing period (beyond moving product in/out), assuming deception in the face of demonstrated, pervasive, and continuing incompetence and ignorance is a bit far, I think.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

choco said:


> That makes a lot of sense. I wonder why the individual I'm working with is attempting to sell off these frogs for what they're not. He's an intelligent individual and I know he's been into frogs/amphibians and reptiles for a long time. It does make me wonder what else he may have pulled on others, or on myself. *sigh*





choco said:


> I have talked this over with the vendor. He told me that he was sorry about the misinformation, but that he generally clumps all of the pumilio from that region together. I told him that I won't be purchasing them for that reason, as I am specifically looking for a blue jeans.


I really agree with your evaluation of jobbers, but I still think an experienced dart frog seller would need to be an extreme example of your opinion to be making that "innocent" mistake.


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

stemcellular said:


> Interesting thread. One question though... when we generally hear about species being fragile or difficult to breed (blue jeans in this case) I'm curious how much of that has to do with the manner in which they were collected/imported. For example, if Pepper were to bring in a species like silverstoni (sp?), which has always been deemed difficult by hobby standards, would it fare better now because of (a) better import techniques and (b) better husbandry? Just curious.


I would say yes, very much so... A lot of these frogs came in late 80's early 90's and they were sent up to the states mostly in aquarium fish shipments where they were housed in same bags.. The shippers did not know much about these frogs as they would send bags of these with auratus and blue jean pumilio together and about 90% of the blue jeans came in dead..(toxin release).. The luckier ones were sent to Reptile Distributors in and throughout Florida whereas they were seperated then put on the "Available" lists. I purchased mine for $25-$35 each in hopes of staying away from wholesalers who offered these for like $10 each and these were made to move.. so they grabbed a handful that you ordered and put them in a plastic cup (small deli cup) 5 frogs cramped in each .. not great shipping method and you'd be lucky if 1 or 2 would survive a week in your vivarium.. Today with the advanced knowledge and members from this board.. I'm sure the "delicate" phrase for this frog will disappear..(As this is where the label came from back in the day along with histrionicus and lehmanni all available around the same period and most likely due to stresses from holding and shipping) Once established they are not at all shy, eat well.. even call, court and lay eggs well.. but we learned maybe too late to let the parents care for them exclusively.. everyone tried to keep them going on the European method of removal of tadpole and feed egg yolk or bee pollen protein, species egg substitution, etc.. This is what was stated the thing to do with the literature available at the time.. Now if given a second chance at these frogs I'm sure these would establish in the hobby... They are by no means rare in Costa Rica.. I saw this frog the most in my visit there, they were everywhere.. Peter Keane

Also to anyone lucky enough to be offered F1 true Blue Jean pumilio they are definitely more orange than the red parent as adults.. 

PS> Great job with the mantellas...


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Peter Keane said:


> I would say yes, very much so... A lot of these frogs came in late 80's early 90's and they were sent up to the states mostly in aquarium fish shipments where they were housed in same bags.. The shippers did not know much about these frogs as they would send bags of these with auratus and blue jean pumilio together and about 90% of the blue jeans came in dead..(toxin release).. The luckier ones were sent to Reptile Distributors in and throughout Florida whereas they were seperated then put on the "Available" lists. I purchased mine for $25-$35 each in hopes of staying away from wholesalers who offered these for like $10 each and these were made to move.. so they grabbed a handful that you ordered and put them in a plastic cup (small deli cup) 5 frogs cramped in each .. not great shipping method and you'd be lucky if 1 or 2 would survive a week in your vivarium.. Today with the advanced knowledge and members from this board.. I'm sure the "delicate" phrase for this frog will disappear..(As this is where the label came from back in the day along with histrionicus and lehmanni all available around the same period and most likely due to stresses from holding and shipping) Once established they are not at all shy, eat well.. even call, court and lay eggs well.. but we learned maybe too late to let the parents care for them exclusively.. everyone tried to keep them going on the European method of removal of tadpole and feed egg yolk or bee pollen protein, species egg substitution, etc.. This is what was stated the thing to do with the literature available at the time.. Now if given a second chance at these frogs I'm sure these would establish in the hobby... They are by no means rare in Costa Rica.. I saw this frog the most in my visit there, they were everywhere.. Peter Keane
> 
> Also to anyone lucky enough to be offered F1 true Blue Jean pumilio they are definitely more orange than the red parent as adults..
> 
> PS> Great job with the mantellas...


Thanks Peter. I pretty much assumed that could be the case after talking to a few Mantella importers that have been around for some time. Apparently, mortality used to be about 80-90% whereas now its quite low (though never lower enough I suppose).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Catfur said:


> So, Green and Black doesn't refer to a specific locality (even one as broad as a whole country), but Blue Jeans does, despite the fact that both are clearly based on a visual description, and the average joe importer/frog jobber is supposed to know this how (besides the scads of angry e-mails they probably get)? If all you had was the basic dart frog books that have been out for a long time, and weren't plugged into the hobby, why wouldn't you think that an orange frog with blue legs wasn't a blue jeans?.


I refer you to Leenders, Twan; 2001, A Guide to the Amphibians and Reptiles of Costa Rica; Zona Tropical Publications for the description of the general population of CR O. pumilio along with the assigned common name.... 

I also wish to point out according to the literature, the enormous variation seen in Panama over relatively short geographic range is not noted in northern populations such as Costa Rica see 
Pröhl, Heike; Hagemann, Sabine; Karsch, Jan; Höbel, Gerlinde; 2007; Geographic Variation in Male Sexual Signals in Strawberry Poison Frogs (Dendrobates pumilio); Ethology 113 (9): 825-837. 
The color variation referred to as CR blue jeans is a stable color variation over the range of Costa Rica and is documented at least in the literature as being the primary pattern in that country. If you are an importer/exporter and do not know the value of the product you are offering then you aren't going to be in operation long-term. If you read through my posts above, I never called it false advertising and was giving the seller the benefit of the doubt by bad advertising... 




Catfur said:


> I'm aware of what frogs this hobby assigns to the name "Blue Jeans," but are we certain that those frogs supposedly from Costa Rica via Nicaragua didn't come from Nicaragua, or elsewhere (I've read old reports of pumilo being found all the way up into Honduras)? If the origin of your frogs is "supposedly smuggled out of one country by locals and exported in shipments of miscellaneous herps from another country" you have *ZERO* claim to any statement of purity..


I don't see how this is germane to maintaining the line of CR Blue Jeans as its own line as it is basically the same as many other imports of other dendrobates. We know that they came from a limited number of imports, over a known period of time from a know country, this is more than we know from some other imports that were established by imports from say Europe.... Based on your argument, we should forget maintaining them seperate and just mix in any "blue jean" type pumilio of unknown provence. 




Catfur said:


> It's a garbage can morph now, that doesn't mean that they should be indiscriminately mixed with any red/blue pumilio, or that we should call everything red and blue "blue jeans." But you can't, in good conscience, call a morph with ZERO origin data beyond "several Central American countries.


We have better information than that... they were over a specific period of time, specific imports and are identifiable via defined descriptions see above references. 
.[/QUOTE]


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Catfur said:


> Given that a significant fraction of the importers/jobbers haven't got the foggiest clue what they are doing period (beyond moving product in/out), assuming deception in the face of demonstrated, pervasive, and continuing incompetence and ignorance is a bit far, I think.


Many years ago, I worked for a pet store and the volume I dealt with was sufficient that I was purchasing directly from the jobbers in jobber quantities and I have to say that they were very on-top of the identifications of what they had in stock. There were a small handful of times that I was surprised to discover a novel species. Most of the misidentifications were deliberate as the names have to match those on the import documents. 

Ed


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Ed said:


> I refer you to Leenders, Twan; 2001, A Guide to the Amphibians and Reptiles of Costa Rica; Zona Tropical Publications for the description of the general population of CR O. pumilio along with the assigned common name....
> 
> I also wish to point out according to the literature, the enormous variation seen in Panama over relatively short geographic range is not noted in northern populations such as Costa Rica see
> Pröhl, Heike; Hagemann, Sabine; Karsch, Jan; Höbel, Gerlinde; 2007; Geographic Variation in Male Sexual Signals in Strawberry Poison Frogs (Dendrobates pumilio); Ethology 113 (9): 825-837.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

thank you for stating this. i have kept CR BJs and always understood that the term Bluejeans (in this case) is as specific as lets say el dorado. although the locale has not been tagged on the name it doesnt mean that it isnt a true morph, more importantly, the term bluejeans has been improperly used to describe any frog with this color. this is like someone saying that any yellow pum is a el dorado, that isnt the case and we all know that, but that doesnt mean that the true el dorados are fake or a "trash can" morph.

real bluejeans are a true morph. 

on a side note i believe that under current conditions many more would likely survive than was the case 10-15 years ago, however these are from MANY accounts very fragile regardless of the quality of import. in the same way that other frogs are not hardy. but i believe that this is something we shall never really know, unless someone changes CR's regulations on export. 

james


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Peter Keane said:


> Also to anyone lucky enough to be offered F1 true Blue Jean pumilio they are definitely more orange than the red parent as adults..


I forgot to address this before, the use of astaxanthin appears to color the blue jeans morph up to the same vivid reds as seen in the natal populations. It even works well on long term established captive adults that have lost the original intensity. 

Ed


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Peter Keane said:


> ...
> Also to anyone lucky enough to be offered F1 true Blue Jean pumilio they are definitely more orange than the red parent as adults..
> ...


Actually depends on the individual frogs, I have f2's and f3's that are still fire engine red. Also have f1's and WC's that are orange. But you are right, most red's fade in time.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

rmelancon said:


> Actually depends on the individual frogs, I have f2's and f3's that are still fire engine red. Also have f1's and WC's that are orange. But you are right, most red's fade in time.


Could UVB and/or supplementation be affecting those?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

ChrisK said:


> Could UVB and/or supplementation be affecting those?


In my case no, but yes those could help enhance the colors.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

UVB is probably not going to help with bright colors...exposure to UVB (and UVA) will stimulate melanin production in the frogs... 

Ed


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Ed said:


> UVB is probably not going to help with bright colors...exposure to UVB (and UVA) will stimulate melanin production in the frogs...
> 
> Ed


I just remeber seeing the E. silvertoniei that Ron had free range in the Botanical Gardens and being amazed at how red they were, compared to what I had seen in others' collections. I know we talked about it and they weren't being supplemented and he surmised that it was maybe from all the natural sunlight they got. I was assuming this was from some type of UV a or b.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Rob,

Its more probable that the frogs were ingesting some carotenoid from the invertebrates that were also free ranging in the area as they were feeding on the detritus from the wide variety of plants. While we don't know the entire role the pterins are playing in the frogs (as pterins are not dietarily derived), thier role in protection against UV light appears to be very minimal (see for example Photophysics and Photochemistry of Pterins in Aqueous Solution - Accounts of Chemical Research (ACS Publications)). The primary protector for UV protection is melanin which is present in the frogs typically as a layer underneath the bright pigment layers in the skin while having specialized structures that allow it to expand across the xanthopores and iridiopores as needed. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Doesn`t greenhouse glass block UV rays?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Below is a shot of one of Brent's pumilio I took recently. He attributed most of the intense coloration to astaxanthin supplementation. UVB, although important as well toward the health of the frogs, doesn't seem to contribute that much towards intense coloration.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Doesn't Brent rarely feed or supplement though, relying on in-tank microfauna populations?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Off and on, Chris...but they still receive occasional flies dusted with some supplements (I don't want to speak too much for him as I don't know his specifici routine...but a search should easily be able to provide that information for anyone interested as he has spoken about it many times before).

What I do know is that he attributed most of the intense red coloration to astaxanthin supplementation. The UVB seemed to encourage a much healthier looking/acting frog, but alone doesn't seem to do much in the way of encouraging intense red pigmentation.

Also, given the amount of wild collected microfauna he has collected and added to this tank and the substrate and continually reproduce, this could be contributing as well (as Ed mentioned above).​


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

I would be interested in whether he has replaced the Solacryl at any time also since it's supposedly less UV-transparent after a couple of years (or if that "fact" itself has been tested with UV reptile bulbs instead of tanning bulbs), if the Solacryl basically isn't working anymore then we KNOW the light isn't contributing -


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Hi guys,

Ron alerted me to this thread. I can say with a great deal of confidence that Naturose will color up blue jeans fantastically and that UVB has little effect. Over the years I've tried a variety of carotenoid supplements with these guys and still wound up with orange frogs. I've had UVB on them for nearly a decade. Then Ed introduced me to Naturose and WOW. What a difference.

I have changed the Solacryl in that vivarium before and the current Solacryl is about 2 years old. If I remember right, I believe that Solacryl used in tanning beds is suppose to be replaced every 2 years. Given that tanning bed bulbs are stronger than our reptile bulbs, I think it is safe to assume that our Solacryl remains UV transparent for a longer period of time. But someday I hope to have a UVB meter to actually measure it.

Finally, one small clarification. I actually do supplement my pumilio quite a bit. I try to dust with Naturose about every 3 or 4th feeding and dust with a multivitamin and mineral powder at other feedings. I think like most people, I get in a hurry and often feed undusted flies. But in a large viv the frogs are consuming a lot of things other than freshly dusted flies and I only feed the large viv about once every one to two weeks. So the feedings are infrequent, but I do try to dust.

Bottom line, if you want bright red blue jeans, supplement with naturose. It works great.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Cool Brent thanks a lot, I was actually gonna email and/or Frognet you about some of that stuff but it's good it got posted on here for more to see


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

I can vouch for how red bbrocks blue jeans are. They are gorgeous.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Hey guys,

I've read through this whole thread now and there is a significant gap in the blue jeans history. There were significant numbers of 'blue jeans' exported from Nicaragua in 1999-2001 with 1999 and 2000 being the peak. As far as I can tell, most of the blue jeans still in the US originate from those exports. These exports were advertised as 'farm raised' which back then meant somebody had protected or 'enhanced' habitat on private land and collected the frogs from there. Supposedly these frogs were of Nicaraguan origin but many people say they look identicle to the animals found around La Selva CR. However, those same people have not visited the Nic/CR border so can't speak to the morphology of the frogs found in that region. The best info that I have gathered is that black legs are known a little farther north in Nicaragua but the morph of the borderland frogs is not known. Which means these frogs are probably from the La Selva area but the possibility still exists that they are from Nic. If anyone is familiar with the pumilio along the border, I'd love to hear about it.

During that last exportation spurt, blue jeans showed up in pet stores at insanely low prices. I believe most hobbyists got their animals from Incredible Pets in Florida though because they carefully coordinated shipments and then screened the animals briefly before sending them on to the end consumer. I paid $25 each plus shipping for mine. It seemed like a lot of money at the time.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Strange, there's a pic of me somewhere (probably at my father's) of me standing at the border of CR/Nicaragua in my teens wearing fatigues. If I only knew then what I know now right?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Cool 
blue jean vid

YouTube - Strawberry Poison Dart Frog


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## frogmasterbonk (Mar 5, 2009)

Just get a Man Creek and call it a day. They look just the same you would just be buying the name.


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