# NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Although quarantine does not only belong in the beginner's section I think this should be posted here.
The first four "my first frog" threads I just read show frogs dropped right into a set-up non-quarantine viv. I am curious as to how many froggers quarantine , how they do a proper quarantine, and if there are still (must be) those out there who either have never heard of proper quarantine or just don't see the up-side to it. 
This is quite probably the biggest beginner mistake (although not one limited to newbies) and also quite possibly the biggest cause of pre-mature Dart deaths.
Comments?

Rich


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I've never quarantined any of my frogs in the sense that they are placed into a bare enclosure that is easily cleanable, etc. I personally think it's much less stressful to place the frogs straight into the enclosure I have prepared for them.

I have my doubts with the hyper-quarantine methods of a sterile and stark tub/enclosure with wet or damp paper towels as 'substrate' as I think it heightens the risks of bacterial infection, etc. The cons outweight the pros IMO.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

skylsdale said:


> I've never quarantined any of my frogs in the sense that they are placed into a bare enclosure that is easily cleanable, etc. I personally think it's much less stressful to place the frogs straight into the enclosure I have prepared for them.
> 
> I have my doubts with the hyper-quarantine methods of a sterile and stark tub/enclosure with wet or damp paper towels as 'substrate' as I think it heightens the risks of bacterial infection, etc. The cons outweight the pros IMO.


Let me start with your "hyper-quarantine" concerns and go from there.
My quarantine containers consist of 1.5 gallon (my froglets go into the same tubs which I have used exclusively for over five years now) round tubs from Josh. I never lose any quarantined frogs (and I quarantine all my new frogs no matter who I get them from) to bacterial infections caused by enclosure issues. My tubs all have a very nice thick layer of leaf litter, many plants , and stress frogs no more than any other container that has ample spots to hide. Chasing a sick frog around a fully planted 90 gal is not a good time for either a sick frog or a chaser. Quarantine is one of the absolutely accepted and practised procedures by Zoos, aquariums, universities, ASN/Treewalkers (which you are a member of Ron) and museums. Using a permanent viv as a quarantine enclosure is not considered proper quarantine. The ASN stance on quarantine is posted under "good threads for beginners" here.
Now to the cons of not quarantining.
Each and every frog that comes into a collection has the possibility of being diseased. Each and every frog can pass along this disease to other frogs in same enclosures and all diseased frogs can pass along said disease to a fully planted viv. Anybody who can look at a frog for a bit and proclaim it "happy and healthy" has an instant job at the psychic hotline because I know of nobody capable by conventional , scientific ways.
So, if your concerns are death by bacterial infection worry no longer. If you are hoping for the best because you buy from"reputable dealers" just understand that each and every sick or diseased frog I have owned (and I have owned a few) have all come from "reputable dealers". If you buy frogs from me, quarantine and run fecals. There is not one breeder out there who can proclaim with certainty that all of their darts are in-fact "happy and healthy".

Rich


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

While quarantine is important - I have little doubt that there are bigger mistakes made by beginners. Inappropriate temperatures and improper supplementation would get my vote for the 2 biggest mistakes made by beginners. 

If a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs, places them into a completed tank and provides appropriate husbandry conditions - the chances are very good that those frogs will live quite content for a significant period of time. Is there a chance the frogs overall longevity is compromised due to the presence of a parasite? Certainly. But is there a chance they will live as long as a pair of frogs that were not quarantined - but housed in the same manner? Yup. (and I agree that there are different ways of measuring success and longevity may not mean success in every ones eyes).

The same can't be said if the frogs are placed in a tank in a room that can experience extremely high temps or be exposed directly to sunlight, or for people who get frogs and feed them without offering calcium. In those cases - you will have a dead frog in less than a years time (and most likely less than 6 months).

I am certainly not advocating that quarantine is without utility, and I fully support and fully practice quarantine. However - if a newbie is going to make a mistake - I would much rather see them not quarantine than not understand and not meet the *MINIMAL* essential husbandry.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

rozdaboff said:


> While quarantine is important - I have little doubt that there are bigger mistakes made by beginners. Inappropriate temperatures and improper supplementation would get my vote for the 2 biggest mistakes made by beginners.


While usual room temps are similar to dart acceptable temps and it can take months for supp issues to show (time in which supp posts can be read) contaminating a full viv happens almost instantly. But I agree that those are two biggies also.





rozdaboff said:


> If a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs, places them into a completed tank and provides appropriate husbandry conditions - the chances are very good that those frogs will live quite content for a significant period of time. Is there a chance the frogs overall longevity is compromised due to the presence of a parasite? Certainly. But is there a chance they will live as long as a pair of frogs that were not quarantined - but housed in the same manner? Yup. (and I agree that there are different ways of measuring success and longevity may not mean success in every ones eyes).


First off , if a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs and places them into a completed tank they are not providing proper husbandry conditions. 
Please don't say that there is a chance that a diseased frog will live as long as a disease free frog. This has been thrown out there before and I know of very few froggers who even have the possibility of having ran a scientific test to prove that diseased frogs live as long as healthy frogs. But I can only guess they do not.



rozdaboff said:


> I am certainly not advocating that quarantine is without utility, and I fully support and fully practice quarantine. However - if a newbie is going to make a mistake - I would much rather see them not quarantine than not understand and not meet the *MINIMAL* essential husbandry.


I am glad you support quarantine. But proper quarantine is the essence of proper husbandry, not to be placed in some sub-section of husbandry issues.
Feel free to change the title if this is the only issue.........  


Rich


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## beachbabe18509 (Oct 29, 2007)

Still being new to the hobby I think quarantine is easily overlooked early on, but not one of the biggest mistakes.. My first two frogs went straight into a "permanent" enclosure, and have been their seemingly healthily and happily for over 6 months, looking back it was probably not the best choice but one I made with the little information I had gathered prior to their arrival. I didn't think it was neccesary because the had been housed together prior to my aquisition of them and because I had no other frogs i fear contamination too. However I recently aquired a third frog and plan on moving all three to a larger tank, the 2 originals are in their tank and the new comer is in a sterilite tub with plants, leaf litter and a coco hut, this is her "quarantine" Im having fecals done on all of them before they move in, and the new frog will have been isolated for over a month so I can attest to her appearance of health to back up the results of the fecal(assuming all goes well).

I think quarantine becomes an issue when adding to an existing collection, something most newcomers to the hobby don't have, and hopefully by the time they do they will understand the neccesity and not make the mistake.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Amanda, 
The fact that two ,or any other number frogs, are housed together before you bought them just means that they both are most likely either "clean" or not. If they are/were not "clean" then the time in quarantine before you dirty the viv is the time to test and clean up the frogs.

Rich


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## beachbabe18509 (Oct 29, 2007)

Rich,

I realize that now and luckily, and didn't blindly throw everyone into a new tank together I guess that was my point. I started them off in a bare minimuim ten gallon thinking this would be an adequate lifetime home, I kept reading and researching and realized it by no means was. I also realized I probably should have quarantined and tested them, but I didn't and at that point I did realize I should have the tank they were in would have been like you said dirty. I got a bigger tank, and will test them before moving to the new tank, if they turn up dirty there is another sterilite waiting so I can get them into a clean environment for treatment before they move to their new home.

I guess I was just trying to clarify on the thought process of a newb and why they think quarantine wouldn't be neccesary. I know for any and all future purchases I plan on quarantining and getting fecals done before allowing them into a permanent set-up. I think a "First Frog Horror Story" topic should be added to begginer disscussion to help people realize some of the results of not following the guidelines established by expeirenced froggers. I know reading posts of those who attempted to save a frog after letting something go without catching it early enough really helped me understand the neccesity of quarantine.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Rich Frye said:


> Please don't say that there is a chance that a diseased frog will live as long as a disease free frog. This has been thrown out there before and I know of very few froggers who even have the possibility of having ran a scientific test to prove that diseased frogs live as long as healthy frogs. But I can only guess they do not.


"Diseased" and "disease-free" is a different argument. Diseased would indicate an "interruption, cessation, or disorder of body functions, systems, or organs" (Stedman's Medical Dictionary). I stated:
"If a beginner acquires a pair of CB frogs, places them into a completed tank and provides appropriate husbandry conditions - the chances are very good that those frogs will live quite content for a significant period of time. Is there a chance the frogs overall longevity is compromised due to the presence of a parasite? Certainly. But is there a chance they will live as long as a pair of frogs that were not quarantined - but housed in the same manner? Yup."

But - let's say that the unquarantined frogs have the possibility to have some sort of parasite. And the unquarantined frogs are "sterile". Will the unquarantined frogs have the possibility to live as long as the sterile frogs. Yes - as we have no evidence to suggest otherwise. Is there a possibility that the unquarantined frogs (all other variables being the same) will die earlier? Yes. And is there a possibility that the unquarantined frogs will live longer than the sterile frogs? Yes. You are very right, the scientific tests haven't been done; and because of that - all options are possible and legitimate. 

If you feel that the unquarantined frogs will die sooner, that is your opinion, which you are absolutely entitled to. But if the foundation for your argument is the lack of evidence, you must accept the fact that there is the same possibility for the other outcomes. However - if you were to say that you were going to compare frogs infected with lungworm (_Rhabdias_ sp.) with frogs that were not infected - then that would be a different story. There is plenty of evidence that shows the pathologic effect of lungworm infection.

Quarantine alone is of little use if you do not know what to look for in a sick frog, and if you don't perform testing to determine the parasites present in the animal. And you are never going to be able to test for everything. So there is always a risk. 



> But proper quarantine is the essence of proper husbandry, not to be placed in some sub-section of husbandry issues.
> Feel free to change the title if this is the only issue.........


If this is the way that you feel, and you feel that the hobby is lacking - a much more productive way to approach the issue would be to draft a sheet that explains how you feel quarantine should be done, what to look for, and how to look for it. Making a blanket statement that you feel that "NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made" is all well and good, but I don't see how that helps.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> Let me start with your "hyper-quarantine" concerns and go from there.
> My quarantine containers consist of....


You never actually addressed my concerns...you instead turned to talk about _your_ quarantine methods, which I actually have no concerns about.

Would you mind addressing the actual quarantine method I have concerns about?



> Quarantine is one of the absolutely accepted and practised procedures by Zoos, aquariums, universities, ASN/Treewalkers (which you are a member of Ron)....


And which also functions under the assumption that everyone who joins has plenty of room for improvement and learning.



> But proper quarantine is the essence of proper husbandry, not to be placed in some sub-section of husbandry issues.
> Feel free to change the title if this is the only issue.........
> 
> If this is the way that you feel, and you feel that the hobby is lacking - a much more productive way to approach the issue would be to draft a sheet that explains how you feel quarantine should be done, what to look for, and how to look for it. Making a blanket statement that you feel that "NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made" is all well and good, but I don't see how that helps.


Agreed.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

I was quarantining my frogs in a 12g tank with Creeping fig covering a small layer of soil, leaf litter, coco hut, extra corkbark, driftwood. I was misting 2 times a day and couldn't keep the humidity up and the temp down so I decided to take the QT tank downstairs to a cooler part of the house. I broke the tank on the way down the stairs and had no choice but to put my frogs in the display viv. I had to do something quick and go to the ER. (14 stitches from the glass). When I got home I saw a nice big pile of poop on a piece of leaf litter and knew it was too late if they were infected with something. Now their display tank has become their very large QT tank. (my husband is caving on a bigger tank ) I brought poop samples to a local vet who claimed he did an exam on the frogs ($140 and just looked at them) and said the poop was clear. Since I got a feeling this vet wasn't real up to speed on frog poop or frog health I am now collecting enough to send to Dr. Frye. I think QT tanks are a definate must simply for the fact that trying to find collectable poop in a 37g tank with dark soil isn't easy to do. QT tanks are also great for observation and to learn what is normal and what isn't.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

rozdaboff said:


> If this is the way that you feel, and you feel that the hobby is lacking - a much more productive way to approach the issue would be to draft a sheet that explains how you feel quarantine should be done, what to look for, and how to look for it. Making a blanket statement that you feel that "NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made" is all well and good, but I don't see how that helps.


It is the way I feel Rob. I wasn't joking.
Gotta run , and I will answer the concerns later Ron, but think about this Rob, all the "stickies" and "great posts for beginners" and "PLEASE READ THESE POSTS BEFORE BUYING YOUR NEW FROGS, PLEASE, PLEASE", seem to fall by the wayside next to the thread headlines, hit counts, and the little spinning whirlygigs stateing that this is a "HOT" thread. 
It helps beginners read about quarantine. All angles.

Rich


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just to touch on a earlier thread.. Not all parasite are automatically deleterious to the host, for example, pinworms in a number of species have been shown to increase nutrient availability (this has been documented in bullfrog tadpoles) by assisting in the breakdown of cell walls. 

And to head off Rich saying that pinworms have not been found in dendrobatid frogs.. they have been found in D. parvulus (I don't have time to run down where this is with the new nomenclature (see http://www.jstor.org/pss/3279281 for the reference) and D. histrionicus (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14550481). 
There is more information in this thread beginner-discussion/topic21772-90.html 

While quarantine is important especially with respect to lungworms and hookworms as these can directly infect the frogs and build up to super populations (and cost a lot of money in having to strip down and redo enclosures), the presence of some parasites do not automatically mean the end of the world as our understanding of these parasites is also evolving. 

Ed


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## Dangerously (Dec 19, 2007)

I agree on QT'ing. Having been in the herp hobby for about 40 years I've learned the hard way about quarantine. Snakes infested with mites and internal parasites - most probably WC, but sold as CBB and "parasite-free", etc, etc. Even health-looking animals from well-known breeders can occasionally have parasites. And parasites can come from food as well.

Herp shows especially worry me, as I've seen how fast mites can spread through an entire collection of snakes.. a couple mites at a show that end up on your clothing somehow (brushing up against someone that has handled an infested animal is all it would take) can make it into your enclosures and the fun begins. I would imagine other parasites can do the same, and aren't as readily identified. Luckily dart frogs are usually in isolated containers at shows, but snakes, and lizards especially seem to get repeatedly held, then the person walks to the next table and handles that lizard, and so on.. so there's definitely a chance for parasites to spread that way. Or maybe I worry too much. 

I do feel I owe it to the animals in my possession to take the best care of them possible. It's tough at times, though, because they can't tell me if they hurt or when they don't feel good. And sometimes by the time their behavior changes (if it changes) it can be quite serious.

So, yes, QT. Biggest beginner mistake? It'd be on the list of "Top ## biggest", but like any hobby there are a multitude of "big" mistakes that can be made. As mentioned earlier, improper caging conditions (lack of hide spots, etc), improper temps, large temp changes - things like that can stress a frog and weaken it as well. I've seen a lot of young beginners that think herps are to be handled, and I think this is a big mistake as well. In general this stresses most herps, (is this thing going to eat me???) and can eventually cause problems that ripple through the animals health. This list could go on & on.. but I think you get the idea.

Maybe we need a beginner "checklist" of things to do. Such as: Selecting a frog type (do not buy the frog yet!), Proper viv sizing, proper viv setup, temp stability, culturing food, purchasing a frog, quarantining and fecals, adding animals to the viv, etc. I know I left some things out, but just an idea. Looking at that list this could almost be a book. There is enough great material on this board that a nicely laid-out checklist could have a selection explained with an intro paragraph and linked to relevant threads.

I'm too long-winded tonight.. punchin' out! :wink:


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I also quarantine all new arrivals, in about the same way Rich has described.

Ironicly, I never lost a frog until I began quarintining, but then the frogs I had before (that went straight into the viv) are generally very hardy (auratus, imitator nominat), the frogs that I have lost while in quarantine were amazonicus, reticulatus, bi-color, tarapoto imitator, yellow fantasticus and nancy pumilio. lost exactly one of each, and I usually buy in groups of five (mostly "advanced frogs").

I don't blame the quarantine process, or the breeders I got them from...natural selection?
Then again, I do feel that it is way less stress on the animal, being in a 10+gallon tank, vs a 190 oz tub that gets picked up once maybee twice a day.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

I do some kind of “light” QT.
As I understand the proper way to quarantine is to have your frogs in sterile containers for about 90 days, changing them to a new sterile container every week to prevent re-infection.
I have small tanks I also use for raising froglets. They have a piece of treefern on the bottom for drainage, one small bromeliad (because frogs just seem to feel much more secure when they can hide themselves and observ the environment from inside a bromeliad) some film canisters and a thick layer of leaves.
These small tanks allow me to monitor the frog more closely (very easy to see if they are eating, which is much more difficult in a big full-grown tank) and act faster when something seems wrong with them (losing weight, …).
I move the frogs to their permanent enclosure after a few weeks when they show no problems.
I know this is not the way I am supposed to do it, but I agree with some previous posters saying that bare quarantine tanks can be very stressful for some frogs and they often do very poorly in them. I also experience that it can be very difficult to maintain the right climate (humidity & heat) in these small tanks and the variety of food in the big tanks is incomparable to the microfauna in the small tanks.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

While I agree with the general idea of Quarantining I think you can not overlook the "stress" factor when doing so which in the end can make the frogs more susceptible to various things. A move either from a show or shipping is stressful and then to place the frogs into a small container with limited hiding spots creates a bigger problem than adding them straight to a tank.

Quarantining is some sense is not for the beginner as many times the beginner would be more successful with adding the frogs directly to a large home. One must also look at the overall aspects of a beginner from cost, setup, and etc. Fact is after all of things required to get going into a hobby like this I am not sure Quarantining is at the top of the list. 

Thoughts on what I think is are at the top of the list in order.
- Temperatures
- Food
- Tank setup
- Supplements


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

NathalieB said:


> I do some kind of “light” QT.
> As I understand the proper way to quarantine is to have your frogs in sterile containers for about 90 days, changing them to a new sterile container every week to prevent re-infection.


Actually unless there is a positive fecal sample and the frogs are under treatment this is not required. The quarantine enclosure can be a simple set up with some sphagnum moss and even plant cuttings. The fecal should be collected from a clean container such as shoebox lined with moistened unbleached papertowels (most dendrobatids will pass a fecal within a couple of hours). Many institutions use 30 days or 3 clean fecals whichever is longer for thier quarantine period. 

Ed


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

As to the concerns about stressing due the the fact the quarantine container is bare. I don't know who is suggesting quarantining with those absolute bare conditions, but a clean paper towel 'substrate' with a decent amount of pothos or the like, and at least a hide per frog works wonderfully. I happen to lay leaf litter in the 1.5 gallon tubs. I have about 45 frogs, juvis, froglets, ect. , many of which are considered tougher morphs to work with, in these 1.5 gallon tubs and really don't think I have ever lost any to bacterial infections due to paper towel substrates. The whole quarantine set-up costs a total of less than $5. It is a fairly stress free thing actually. A frog is by itself with zero competition for food or anything else. The quarantine tub is opened about twice a week for feeding, just like other frogs out of quarantine. The tubs are not shaken , bumped, tossed, or mollested in any way , so as to stay stress free. I know of many people who have placed their frogs into what was a very nice looking set-up only to have to tear it down later after finding their frogs not to be doing so well. At this time the sick frogs are *really* stressed and sick to boot. If you want to treat you need to capture the sick frogs and place them into something very similar to a 1.5 gallon quarantine tub, test, treat, test, ect. So, is it a better idea to place them in quarantine *before* they start showing signs of being sick or after? The whole idea of quarantine is to make sure the frog is healthy for introducing it to a clean tank or clean tank-mate. Testing is the only way to confirm if the frog is healthy. Not everyone can test for everything out there, but there are some fairly cheap "big bang for the buck" tests available. And for those who say they are fortunate to have never acquired a sick frog , that is a good and lucky thing.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

so how long do you keep them in this quarantaine set-up?
And what do you test for? all possible parasites? chytrid?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

NathalieB said:


> so how long do you keep them in this quarantaine set-up?
> And what do you test for? all possible parasites? chytrid?


I usually keep them in this set-up for three clean fecals. Parasites are a major test concern, but fecals can also detect some infections. I have not really got too many WCs in recently so the chytrid test is not something I worry about too much. I am getting a decent amount of frogs coming in soon and I will be testing those for chytrid. It (time spent) would also depend on whether or not I think the viv the quarantined frog will go into is ready or not. These frogs can live very long periods of time in a 1.5 gallon tub.

Rich


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

Hey Rich,
Do you use the containers with or without the holes punched on the sides?
Thanks,
Scott


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

boombotty said:


> Hey Rich,
> Do you use the containers with or without the holes punched on the sides?
> Thanks,
> Scott


Hey, 
Without. There is enough air for the frogs to live weeks without opening. Much as when I ship deli cups. I like the FFs, springs and such to stay in the tub :wink: .

Rich


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## SeattleSlaw (May 13, 2008)

Ok, as a total newbie I've been reading everything I can get my eyes on in the newbies section (& more). There's nothing quite as fun as a new obsession...

So it seems agreed: quarantine is a good thing. Wanting to do it right, can you please:
1) Post some pics of your quarantine set ups. I keep hearing about the 1.5 gl ones and I'd like to know what usually goes inside.

2) Suggest a good test kit or 2 to test the fecals?

3) Maybe discuss a few of the most common diseases/afflictions, their causes and their cures, so we newbies can know what to look for and what to do about them?

Thanks, people. This has been a great learning experience & I don't even own a single froggy yet.

Alan


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

SeattleSlaw said:


> 2) Suggest a good test kit or 2 to test the fecals?


+1. Are there test kits available?

Like Alan, I'm preparing to get my first frogs and it seems to me that not quarantining new frogs is more of an issue for intermediate keepers, not newbies.

Immature frogs purchased from a breeder would have already been exposed to each other so quarantining such frogs would seem a preventative measure after the fact.

I'm planning on buying 5 specimens from a breeder, what would be the advantage of separating them from one another once I receive them?

As per not quarantining new frogs before introducing them to your other frogs, yes, makes total sense to me. But adding new frogs to vivaria is something American hobbyists rarely do in the first place, no?


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

erik one of the purposes of quarantine is to keep your viv that you probably spent much time and money on from becoming contaminated. if that happens it must then be disassembled, stearalized, and put back together. costing more time and money. 
sean


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## Leap (Mar 19, 2008)

I didn't quarantine. So far it hasn't turned out to be a mistake per se, but I will quarantine from here on out. My only reason for not quarantining was that I simply hadn't read that. As much reading as I did before jumping in, I somehow skipped over proper quarantine. Yeah, that could've been any other important process that I skipped. But what matters to me is that my frogs are alive and well, happily hiding about until they here fruit flies hitting the leaves.


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

Good point on keeping a viv uncontaminated.

I can get my frogs sooner and take my time building a viv if I just use a plastic container.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

How about when a vendor imports say a 50 frog lot? How are they breaking up that lot for QT, fecals, and possible treatment? One per container, two, three. 

I guess I have a hard time believing they would put one frog per container and do multiple 50 frog fecals. That would eat into their profit margins pretty quickly. Are there vets out there that give discounts to vendors for large numbers of fecals?


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## beachbabe18509 (Oct 29, 2007)

I could be very very wrong, but I was under the impression that if frogs are housed together they are more than likely all going to have the same icky stuf in their system, so if they came in together, they probably have all the same bad stuff


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

this is a problem with some vendors they dont quarantine, they dont fecal, and they dont treat.
it seems to me you get what you pay for. some of the sponsers here do import frogs and may be a bit more expensive than your lfs or kingsnake wholesaler but if you talk to them or even read the descriptions of their imports they will tell you how long in quarantine and what treatments have been done. i doubt if many fecal before they sell as that would get ridiculous which is why it should be done by you the frog owner.
we are dealing with living breathing things that can suffer and perish. we are not buying a toaster online (wich may actualy get researched more by some buyers) take your time, find a breeder/dealer you trust and smartly and informatively make your purchase. 


then quarantine.

sean


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> I could be very very wrong, but I was under the impression that if frogs are housed together they are more than likely all going to have the same icky stuf in their system, so if they came in together, they probably have all the same bad stuff


Probably true.



> ...some of the sponsers here do import frogs and may be a bit more expensive than your lfs or kingsnake wholesaler but if you talk to them or even read the descriptions of their imports they will tell you how long in quarantine and what treatments have been done. i doubt if many fecal before they sell as that would get ridiculous which is why it should be done by you the frog owner.


I'm not sure if prophylatic treatments are a typical strategy with large imports or not. It may certainly make sense for some highly likely conditions. I'm not sure it makes sense to just blindly treat for them all. 

I'm kinda hoping that those sponsors that do import large numbers of animals, will chime in here and share their strategies for dealing with this.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> I'm not sure if prophylatic treatments are a typical strategy with large imports or not. It may certainly make sense for some highly likely conditions. I'm not sure it makes sense to just blindly treat for them all.


Operate under the premise that any new acquisition is harboring a heavy parasite load and take appropriate steps to treat with the advice of a vet with appropriate quarantine protocols. Shotgun prophylactic treatments are never a good idea.

Jason


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

SeattleSlaw said:


> Ok, as a total newbie I've been reading everything I can get my eyes on in the newbies section (& more). There's nothing quite as fun as a new obsession...
> 
> So it seems agreed: quarantine is a good thing. Wanting to do it right, can you please:
> 1) Post some pics of your quarantine set ups. I keep hearing about the 1.5 gl ones and I'd like to know what usually goes inside.
> Alan


Alan
I believe these are the 190 oz. containers to which Rich was referring. This is my quarantine rack - perhaps not ideal, as it's in my frog room. Each container is a "mini-viv" with a charcoal drainage layer, a layer of spagnum, and a pothos or philodendron micans cutting. I always leave a small area without substrate or charcoal for a pond (easier to suck out excess water). Some of the more shy species also have a couple magnolia leaves for hides.









Jim


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> Operate under the premise that any new acquisition is harboring a heavy parasite load and take appropriate steps to treat with the advice of a vet with appropriate quarantine protocols.


Jason, I agree this is the smart thing to do for a hobbiest's new aquisitions. But how would you handle a large number of wholesale frogs? If you imported 50 pumilio for resale, what strategy would you execute for their QT, test, and treatment? One per QT container, initial fecals for all, treat as necessary, follow up fecals till clear? And how about Chytrid tests? Would you test them all or a just a sampling? Some of these strategies seem like they would be very cost prohibitive. 

Unfortunately, economics probably has a lot to do with, to what degree these animals are tested and treated. Behavior may be a concern as well. Putting four pumilio in one small QT container, certainly has risks.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

pl259 said:


> > Operate under the premise that any new acquisition is harboring a heavy parasite load and take appropriate steps to treat with the advice of a vet with appropriate quarantine protocols.
> 
> 
> Jason, I agree this is the smart thing to do for a hobbiest's new aquisitions. But how would you handle a large number of wholesale frogs? If you imported 50 pumilio for resale, what strategy would you execute for their QT, test, and treatment? One per QT container, initial fecals for all, treat as necessary, follow up fecals till clear? And how about Chytrid tests? Would you test them all or a just a sampling? Some of these strategies seem like they would be very cost prohibitive.
> ...


I know that I have much more than 50 adult frogs. Each and every one has had fecals either per animal or per enclosure/group ship/whatever animals were held together. Knowing that most ships/froglets/whatever frog I have traded for over the years will most likely be held with others. I do this to a certain extent and would also guess that if one , two, three, of my new group of 50 that came in have critters , then most will likely have nasties. Putting four frogs together in Q has no more risk (unless they really were ALL caught, packaged, and held by themselves, hahahaha) if done right than two. You can treat four the same as one or two. Cytrid is another matter and while a very substantial potential threat has not been turning up in the HUGE numbers that many other parasites regularly do.
So, bottom line for wholesalers, it is quite possible to sell large groups of frogs that have been tested and treated. It is up to the dealer to take it upon his/herself to do this. Just as it is for them to find out where the frogs they sell come from. Unfortunately this does cut into the almighty $ and takes a little time and care to be done properly.

But to get this back to where I initially thought the major help was needed, wether or not you are an old pro or a brand spankin' new frogger it is ALWAYS best to do a proper quarantine with each and every new group of frogs obtained.

Rich


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Wow, can't believe that I've missed this thread so far. I would just like to throw my hat in with the camp that heartily endorses QT. Unlike Rich, I have lost a few frogs during quarantine. A few years back I lost about a dozen pairs/juvies (bastis, bri bri, imitators, and GL panguana) due to something that came in on an individual or a group. At this point in time I was foolish enough to keep all my QT frogs on the same rack, and use the same dusting container, and neglect glove changes between temporary enclosures. A couple of spot histologies on the frogs I lost didn't reveal anything, but a little extra effort could have certainly saved several of those individuals. Fortunately the loss was nothing compared to what might have happened had I foregone quarantine entirely and introduced the frogs to the rest of my collection.

I do have one question for the people that use the plastic 190oz tubs; I have used them in the past but removing the lid was always so loud and resonant that the inhabitants would go nuts whenever I needed to feed. Is this not a problem anymore, or is there an easier way to take the lid off?


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> I do have one question for the people that use the plastic 190oz tubs; I have used them in the past but removing the lid was always so loud and resonant that the inhabitants would go nuts whenever I needed to feed. Is this not a problem anymore, or is there an easier way to take the lid off?


I've found that you don't need to COMPLETELY seat the lid to keep QTed animals safe and inside. A light push and the lid stays put.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

> I've found that you don't need to COMPLETELY seat the lid to keep QTed animals safe and inside. A light push and the lid stays put.


Will it keep flies in as well?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Unfortunately I have found that each time I have purchased decent numbers of the 190 tubs the lids fit a bit different. I did have one group that I thought to be a bit too tight, but they seemed to loosen a bit after use. I have also found it not needed to totally remove the tops when feeding.

Rich


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> Jason, I agree this is the smart thing to do for a hobbiest's new aquisitions. But how would you handle a large number of wholesale frogs? If you imported 50 pumilio for resale, what strategy would you execute for their QT, test, and treatment? One per QT container, initial fecals for all, treat as necessary, follow up fecals till clear? And how about Chytrid tests? Would you test them all or a just a sampling? Some of these strategies seem like they would be very cost prohibitive.


On large scales, this is not cost prohibited. It is when smaller vendors try and do this with 10-20 animals, that it becomes more expensive. Currently, I'm at close to 95% survival rate from getting them from the importer through quarantine. So, getting in 10 and losing 2 would still be within the realm of statistical variance.

At 50-100 animals, my quarantine price is less than $10 a frog (and a month of feeding before they are listed). I then get hatemail from vendors that my prices "devalue the frogs" and emails from customers asking for volume discounts for sexed pairs with calling males.

Also, on a related topic. Those that sell frogs immediately after they get them from the importer are forced to charge high prices because some/many die in shipping. On the otherhand, those that quarantine have much better success (near perfect) shipping and therefore, charge less for quarantined/treated animals.


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

Instead of starting a new thread, I'll ask here:

I have tadpoles from eggs a breeder gave me. Is there a need to quarantine and test the frogs?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

> I have tadpoles from eggs a breeder gave me. Is there a need to quarantine and test the frogs?


Did you rinse the eggs or use a Methylene blue sol'n on them? Surface contaminants can be problematic once the tads hatch, so assuming that you didn't clean the eggs, the froglets could be infected by anything that the parents had.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

The eggs were treated with meth, however I did not remove them from the leaf they were on.
To my knowledge, the parents don't have anything (that are known to show in current vet fecals) that typically transmit through the egg stage (coccadia for example).
Shouldn't have anything to worry about, but makes me wonder the following question:
Can fecals be done on tads in question? I wouldn't see why not, but then, I'm by no means a vet.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

I always quarentine, and I get fecals on all darts and any non- dart frogs I think may have some sort of pathogen. Quarentine for me is usually at least 2 months, depending on if I am introducing them into a group of frogs. Usually any time I plan on breeding them I also get fecals done (on darts and non-darts, and geckos).


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> Alan
> I believe these are the 190 oz. containers to which Rich was referring. This is my quarantine rack - perhaps not ideal, as it's in my frog room. Each container is a "mini-viv" with a charcoal drainage layer, a layer of spagnum, and a pothos or philodendron micans cutting. I always leave a small area without substrate or charcoal for a pond (easier to suck out excess water). Some of the more shy species also have a couple magnolia leaves for hides.


Hey Jim,
I don`t mean to be critical but quarentining over plants you`ll be using and next to ff cultures isn`t quarantining. In the frog room is acceptable if no other option but that close to things going into the viv is more towards giving them a rapid transfer area. More for chytrid than anything else. I don`t think hookworm, lungworm, coccidia etc would be carried by ff`s to transfer into your feeding containers but chytrid would probably make it.


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

frogfarm said:


> > Alan
> > I believe these are the 190 oz. containers to which Rich was referring. This is my quarantine rack - perhaps not ideal, as it's in my frog room. Each container is a "mini-viv" with a charcoal drainage layer, a layer of spagnum, and a pothos or philodendron micans cutting. I always leave a small area without substrate or charcoal for a pond (easier to suck out excess water). Some of the more shy species also have a couple magnolia leaves for hides.
> 
> 
> ...


Aaron
Yeah, I took that when my vet asked me for a pic of my QT, and she took me to task about the proximity, too.  Homer Simpson moment: "Hmmm, where should I put these plants I got from a different nursery ... I know, I'll quarantine them ..." 

The ff cultures brings up a whole new issue I hadn't thought about. I use separate cultures for the frogs in QT, and put apple cider traps under the QT rack to catch any escapees, but what about cross contamination from QT tub to QT tub? I normally dispense flies from the culture(s) into a disposable cup, and don't let the cup come into contact with the tubs as I dispense the flies into the tubs. What are the chances of contaminating one tub from another by using the same fly cultures? What is the 'best practice' for feeding in QT?

Jim


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I believe there are actually 2 main purposes of quarantine and Aaron is the only one I saw even touch on the second purpose.

The first purpose is to place the animals in an environment where they can be observed for symptoms of conditions or disease that would warrant treatment. What constitutes "warranting treatment" has been debated but that is the purpose anyway. It does seem that the discussion is focused on parasites while fungal, bacterial, and viral diseases have been only glossed over. Since chytrid tends to be asymptomatic in warm environments, it probably isn't safe to assume that it isn't important. We don't know the prevalence of chytrid in captive collections, and there are many possible vectors for its introduction. Materials brought in to the vivarium may have chytrid. And just because a frog is captive bred does not mean it has not had direct or indirect exposure to a wild caught animal. So I would suggest that proper quarantine would not just focus on one subset of possible diseases.

The second purpose of quarantine is to isolate new acquisitions to prevent the introduction of disease into the larger collection. Again, what do we do about fungal, bacterial, and viral diseases which may be transmitted in multiple ways from tank to tank?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

bbrock said:


> I believe there are actually 2 main purposes of quarantine and Aaron is the only one I saw even touch on the second purpose.
> 
> The first purpose is to place the animals in an environment where they can be observed for symptoms of conditions or disease that would warrant treatment. What constitutes "warranting treatment" has been debated but that is the purpose anyway. It does seem that the discussion is focused on parasites while fungal, bacterial, and viral diseases have been only glossed over. Since chytrid tends to be asymptomatic in warm environments, it probably isn't safe to assume that it isn't important. We don't know the prevalence of chytrid in captive collections, and there are many possible vectors for its introduction. Materials brought in to the vivarium may have chytrid. And just because a frog is captive bred does not mean it has not had direct or indirect exposure to a wild caught animal. So I would suggest that proper quarantine would not just focus on one subset of possible diseases.
> 
> The second purpose of quarantine is to isolate new acquisitions to prevent the introduction of disease into the larger collection. Again, what do we do about fungal, bacterial, and viral diseases which may be transmitted in multiple ways from tank to tank?


I agree with you Brent. It is quite important to keep your quarantines very much away from anything that may come in contact with frogs already quarantined. I really don't want people to think that quarantine is only for running fecals. You can detect more than just parasites or protozoa in fecals. It should be noted that symptoms of some bacterial, fungal, and viral infections can be caught (many times visually) via proper quarantine before fecals have been run. What "we do about" them would depend upon exactly what baterial, fungal, or viral infection they had and how far along the infection had progressed.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bump, due to all the pics I see of new frogs going right into a fully stocked viv...


Rich


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

I recently had 2 of my frogs tested for both chytrid and tbc. Luckyly they both tested negative, but talking to te vet at the university got me thinking very hard about the way I quarantine.
According to him there are quite a lot of chytrid and tbc-infections in private collections. In many cases this is not even known by the owner as the frogs seem to cope with it (but they are infecting all the frogs they come in contact with). Often only the weak frogs or very youg frogs die from the diseases.

A recent testing by the london zoo at a dutch frogday did reveal that 8 of the 78 tested frogs tested positive for chytrid. These frogs that tested positive came from 2 seperate breeders, I don't know howmany different breeders where tested (I hope London zoo will make this information available at the end of the project). I don't have any more specific information, and this is probably non-scientific generalizing, but: thats 10% of the tested frogs! and I can imagine the percentage is higher with wc/imported/smuggled frogs.

As I have a collection of 100+ frogs, the idea of bringing in one of these diseases gives me nightmares.

I am now going to set up a quarantine-area in my basement , *far from my collection* (I used to have my quarantine tanks in the same room) for *2-3 months* (I used to only do it for a couple of weeks). 
A chytrid-infection is more likely to show itself when the temperatures are lower (apparently higher temperatures kills it/makes it inactive) so *lowering the temp* in qt-tanks is not a bad idea.
I am also thinking about *testing* one frog of each new group on chytrid and tbc, just to be safe.
Althoug chytrid is cureable (tbc isn't I was told), just imagine having to set up the treatment-protocol for an entire collection (This probably would also kill a lot of the offspring and the weaker frogs) and the 25euro for the test suddenly doesnt seem that big a deal anymore. Especially when you know that "a healthy LOOKING and ACTING frog" doesn't mean they aren't infected.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

I asked the guy I have just bought frogs from about quarantining (he has 12 yrs expeirence) and he says he doesnt and he has had no trouble with his at least 40 frogs (mainly breeders)that he keeps.In think I would take that advice from him considering how skilled he is in the hobby.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

moothefrog said:


> I asked the guy I have just bought frogs from about quarantining (he has 12 yrs expeirence) and he says he doesnt and he has had no trouble with his at least 40 frogs (mainly breeders)that he keeps.In think I would take that advice from him considering how skilled he is in the hobby.


40 frogs and a single hobbyist's advice is a pretty small cross-section to base your opinions on.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

There are many others that dont side with quarintining.I am not taking that advice just from him,but from other people on this board,and my own personal opinion.I was just trying to say:Hey this guy has a lot of experience and he has never quarintined.Just trying to prove a point...


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> There are many others that dont side with quarintining.I am not taking that advice just from him,but from other people on this board,and my own personal opinion.I was just trying to say:Hey this guy has a lot of experience and he has never quarintined.Just trying to prove a point...


Oh man, I can see where this is going....

The decision to quarantine is, of course, a personal one- and I have made it part of my husbandry practice to QT all new acquisitions and run fecals and treat accordingly. I also work with the new acquisitions last. It's cheap insurance, if you ask me. Why risk wiping out your entire collection because of an introduced nasty from a $15 imported auratus? That's a lot of time and money down the tubes.


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## morselchip (Jul 17, 2008)

Would a few people be willing to post their qt containers? I have my new froglets in a 15g tank with sphagnum, a pothos, and the wandering jew they arrived with. They seem to be doing well so far- I'm just not sure if my qt tank is too well planted! They have plenty of places to hide and don't seem the least bit shy.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Here's a pic of my first qt. tank, haden't added the leaves yet. There are two types of qt set ups: one is to observe the frogs and collect fecals from and the other is for treatment. The treatment set up is much more simplistic and sterile because it needs to be able to clean easily and frequently, so live plants aren't used. I use an inch of baked leaves in my treatment qt and throw out the leaves when I disinfect the cage. 

http://www.freewebs.com/kapoktree2/quarentine.htm


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

moothefrog said:


> There are many others that dont side with quarintining.I am not taking that advice just from him,but from other people on this board,and my own personal opinion.I was just trying to say:Hey this guy has a lot of experience and he has never quarintined.Just trying to prove a point...


Here is a very simple question.
Can you tell me the up-side of not doing a proper quarantine? Because many can tell you many down-sides to not .

Rich


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

> There are many others that dont side with quarintining.I am not taking that advice just from him,but from other people on this board,and my own personal opinion.I was just trying to say:Hey this guy has a lot of experience and he has never quarintined.Just trying to prove a point...


I'de be interested in that the answer as well... It's like life insurance or car insurance, it's a huge gamble, sometimes it works out fine but a lot of times it doesn't. But sooner or later you're bound to get sick frogs.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

There is no upside or downside.CB frogs may have parasites,but as long as they have and keep a strong immune system he will fight off the parasite.There is no use in taking away the balance of nature.This is my opinion and I do not wish to argue about it.I was going to quarintine my auratus,then I thought against it.


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## herper99 (Mar 21, 2008)

moothefrog said:


> There is no upside or downside.CB frogs may have parasites,but as long as they have and keep a strong immune system he will fight off the parasite.There is no use in taking away the balance of nature.This is my opinion and I do not wish to argue about it.I was going to quarintine my auratus,then I thought against it.


 :shock: 

I understand that you have your opinion, and you are entitled to it. However, you took away the "balance of nature" when you decided to keep dart frogs in a small vivarium. We are not talking about a natural setting here. Even if we were, remember, lots of frogs (and other organisms) die in the wild too. There is a struggle for existence for all organisms. However, when we decide to keep them, they become our responsibility. Much of what we do with our frogs adds undue stress and pressure. There is only benefit in quarantine.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Well said herper, this is not a natural setting and we do need to take preventative measures to ensure they survive. If you get a fecal done the vet should tell you the harmful and non harmful pathogens. There are some parasites that are fine, but there are many that aren't. And why risk it? I think it comes down to the trouble of doing it, because even if there was one positive about doing quarantine I think we owe it to the frogs to do it. I know you do not wish to argue it, so we will debate it. All friendly criticism, but I am really wondering what your reasons for not doing it are. You still didn't say.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

otis07 said:


> Well said herper, this is not a natural setting and we do need to take preventative measures to ensure they survive. If you get a fecal done the vet should tell you the harmful and non harmful pathogens. There are some parasites that are fine, but there are many that aren't. And why risk it? I think it comes down to the trouble of doing it, because even if there was one positive about doing quarantine I think we owe it to the frogs to do it. I know you do not wish to argue it, so we will debate it. All friendly criticism, but I am really wondering what your reasons for not doing it are. You still didn't say.


My reasons for not doing it,is because I dont think you need to do it.The only time that parasites would harm or kill the frogs would be if the frogs immune system collapsed.I WOULD quarintine WC animals because they are sucseptible to there immune system collapsing because of the change of enviroment.All humans have parasites,even deadly ones like cancer.Every day cancer passes through your body,but if you have a strong immune system it will fight it off. ALL animals(including humans) have parasites,some deadly some not.Frogs immune systems fight soff parasites every day in the wild.A little stress will not cause a frog to die,unless it is so stressed that its immune system collapsed.Bigger frogs do not get as stressed as little ones,so the little ones (thumbs and pums ect)should be kept in a bigger viv with alot of plant cover.If you do this you probably shouldnt run into problems.I am still a beginner,someone thats not and doesnt quarintine,please pitch in.


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## herper99 (Mar 21, 2008)

otis07 said:


> All humans have parasites,even deadly ones like cancer.Every day cancer passes through your body,but if you have a strong immune system it will fight it off.


 :shock: Uhhhh.... First of all, cancer is not a parasite. It is a disease caused by the abnormal growth and reproduction of cells, usually due to mutagens (things that cause mutations in your genes), or heredity.



otis07 said:


> The only time that parasites would harm or kill the frogs would be if the frogs immune system collapsed.


This is completely untrue. I don't know who told you that, but they were wrong. By definition, a parasite is a harmful organism. Some (although not all) parasitic organisms left untreated can kill a perfectly healthy frog in a matter of weeks. As for humans, we do have other symbiotic organism that are both commensalistic as well as mutualistic. 



otis07 said:


> I am still a beginner,someone thats not and doesnt quarintine,please pitch in.


I doubt that you will find many experienced people on here that will agree. Again, you have the right to do as you wish, but you should be informed. And quite frankly, as somebody new to dart frogs, you should be taking the advice of the more experienced people on the board. I am not just talking about myself. Look back and read this entire thread. There are some very experienced keepers who are trying to give you good advice. If for nothing else, for the health of the frogs and the stability of our hobby. Don't be afraid to take advice. We all have to admit sometimes when others know better.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

I agree with you herper, moothethefrog is the one we're debating. 



> All humans have parasites,even deadly ones like cancer


Cancer isn't a parasite, and you can't cure it by doing quarentine so that does not relate to what we are talking about. Cancer is an growth of foreign matter inside the body, not something you can catch like parasites. 




> A little stress will not cause a frog to die,unless it is so stressed that its immune system collapsed.


I beg to differ, I have had frogs die of parasites that act perfectly healthy for a year or two and then suddenly secomb to parasites even when they are being kept the same way they have been. I got the given frogs necrepsied by my vet and they died of internal parasite build up. This only happened once, but that was enough for me to change my methods of quarentining and treating. I hope you will not have to have this happen for you to realize. 



> I am still a beginner,someone thats not and doesnt quarintine,please pitch in.


Please know that I am also, but that I also consider most people beginners, so it's sort of a vague generalization. But please take the advice of people slightly more experienced with these frogs so you don't have to learn for yourself. If you ask any of the zoos, aquariums, breeders, or twi members I am very confident that they also quarentine. That is good enough proof for me that quarentine is needed and will benefit the frogs.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Cancer is a parasite in the same sense that a fetus is a parasite. Luckily, most people can completely clear the fetus in about 9 months. :wink:


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Never thought of it that way, but I gues if there's fetus in fetu or parasitic twin...


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## herper99 (Mar 21, 2008)

otis07 said:


> I agree with you herper, moothethefrog is the one we're debating.


Yeah, I'm not sure why it quoted you as saying that. That was weird.



markbudde said:


> Cancer is a parasite in the same sense that a fetus is a parasite. Luckily, most people can completely clear the fetus in about 9 months.


I can see your reasoning. Yes, technically a fetus can be considered a parasite because it is a living organism that is using the resources of the host. However cancer is completely different (kind of), because while it does cause harm, cancer is not an organism. A parasite by definition is an organism that lives in or on another (the host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

I have no problem quarintining,I am just trying to understand the benifits.Benifits:You dont have to take the risk of your frog dying ( didnt know a little stress could cause a frog to die),your frog is happier because the parasites are not bothering him.Maybe I should stop comparing a frog to a human lol.I thought a little stress would not cause any harm,because we humans have parasites and stress and we do fine.Then I thought about the size difference.If it really make you all feel better (and the frogs) I guess I should quarintine any future frogs I get.I thought that if some small hobbiests have no trouble not quarintining,Then why should I?Also,I do consider cancer a parasite because it sucks the life out of you,despite what the dictionary says.I have a question,Do parasites cause frogs stress?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

moothefrog said:


> I have no problem quarintining,I am just trying to understand the benifits.Benifits:You dont have to take the risk of your frog dying ( didnt know a little stress could cause a frog to die),your frog is happier because the parasites are not bothering him.Maybe I should stop comparing a frog to a human lol.I thought a little stress would not cause any harm,because we humans have parasites and stress and we do fine.Then I thought about the size difference.If it really make you all feel better (and the frogs) I guess I should quarintine any future frogs I get.I thought that if some small hobbiests have no trouble not quarintining,Then why should I?Also,I do consider cancer a parasite because it sucks the life out of you,despite what the dictionary says.I have a question,Do parasites cause frogs stress?


if you consider cancer a parasite cuz it sucks the life out of you(even though cancer i not a parasite), what do you think it is doing to the darts then? :?: a proper quarantine will not stress darts out, but having parasites or anything else will ,if not treated, eventually causing death. death to your darts, and even your future collection. Of course parasites cause the darts stress. kristy


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

Death :shock: .Wow,Im quarintining


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## piznipy (Aug 19, 2008)

Ok heres a really noobie question. what is quarantine? lol but I'm serious. I'm going to assume it means keeping the frogs separate so disease doesn't spread. but what exactly? is it some sort of Herp expert term? how would I go about making a sucessful quarantine? would i have to do it if I only got one frog? and as for the list idea by dangerously, not only would that make my day but that would make my year of acclimating to the stable terrarium. 

would Dendrobates Azures be a good frog to start with? do different frogs prefer different plants? the most i want to get is two frogs for a 20 gallon tank. is that ok? sorry lots of questions but this is my only source for answers.


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## piznipy (Aug 19, 2008)

wow butchered the spelling of the frogs name. hence my noobiness. i meant Azureus.lol


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## herper99 (Mar 21, 2008)

piznipy said:


> Ok heres a really noobie question. what is quarantine? lol but I'm serious. I'm going to assume it means keeping the frogs separate so disease doesn't spread. but what exactly? is it some sort of Herp expert term? how would I go about making a sucessful quarantine? would i have to do it if I only got one frog? and as for the list idea by dangerously, not only would that make my day but that would make my year of acclimating to the stable terrarium.
> 
> would Dendrobates Azures be a good frog to start with? do different frogs prefer different plants? the most i want to get is two frogs for a 20 gallon tank. is that ok? sorry lots of questions but this is my only source for answers.


Hi Piznipy. Welcome to the board. This is a good place to start for getting info. Use the search tool to go through different threads. Yes, quarantine means keeping your frogs separate while observing and having fecal tests done. Many people use the plastic Sterlite tubs that range in size from 12 - 50 quarts. You will find better info when you do a search. 

Azureus isn't a bad choice to start with, but if you only have a 20 gallon, a pair of leucs or auratus might be better. But, don't buy any frogs until you have a proper vivarium set up and established with live plants suited for a viv. Again, you will find lots of good info on all the threads. Start in the beginner thread, read everything, then work through the general. You will find many of the same questions you have. Good luck.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Moothefrog:
wow, finally one of us got through lol. :wink: it's just silly i had to be the one to change your mind, cuz rich frye knows a whole lot more than i do, but i am doing everything in my house properly according to asn protocols before i introduce any new darts into my dart room, even from high known professional breeders. put it this way, i bought a pair of darts from a very professional well-known breeder and quarantined and fecaled, only to find out they had a very heavy load of lung worm and hookworm which can be a pain in the butt to ge rid of and is deadly if not treated soon enough. It does not matter who you get the darts from moothefrog. I believe i know exactly who the breeder is that you got some of your darts from as you mentioned his name in a previous post, and although i highly respect him, i did have a pair with a minor bacterial infection in the fecals and also some were great and clean.So no mater what breeder you get your darts from, i am going to say all should quarantine and fecal per asn. I am holding a very clean shop at my house since my first beginner mistakes. we've all been there, done that. Nothing goes into or near my dart room until i get three consecutive fecals clean and they have been in quarantine for three months. Even as tempting as it is to want to get the breeding started if you have proven breeders, i would rather quarantine and do my fecals and be patient, so i can offer healthy offspring in the future, as well as keep my darts stess-free as you say, and live a healthy life, and also contribute to the conservation of these wonderful darts. 
As for proper quarantines, i do this: when i get in a pair I may put the pair in the largest sterilite bin i can buy or one frog per 190 oz container. Inside them includes sanitized pothos cuttings, sanitized leaf litter, sphagnum moss seeded with springtails( you should change out sphagnum moss if you seed it with springs every 3 weeks, lasts longer and safer when seeded) and a makeshift plastic sanitizable cocohut. If you are treating the darts for something, then the substrate is damp paper towels and whatever the treatment plan is per dr. frye( vet whom i believe is the best we have in the U.S. and specializes also in darts and dart medicine). This is the safest, most inexpensive and easiest route to go. Some might use actual tanks, but i find this way to be the best and the fact that they can be stacked and reused if sanitized properly is a plus. They are placed away from my clean collection in a whole different room and away from any of the ff and other feeders i use in a separate room. Hope this helps for the newbie(welcome to the board  ) that was curious what quarantines consisted of. Maybe i am a bit cautious, but believe this to be the best practice when it comes to quarantines and doing fecals. If a fecal comes back positive, i treat and start all over again till i get three clean fecals. Kristy


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## keekalmatter (Aug 9, 2008)

are there fecal tests that you can buy, or is it something you look for?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

dr.frye is an excellent dart vet and you can actually send in fecals of your darts to him overnight delivery or two day but making sure it does not arrive on a wed. or the weekends when i believe he is out of the office. He runs them for 18.00 i believe per group of darts and of course you pay the overnight shipping or however you choose. I do overnight myself personally. [email protected] thats his email and he answers emails very promptly usually and also has great advice. He does do over the phone consults as well and i believe those run a dollar per minute but you'll have to email him and ask about prices. he does prescribe medications via internet/phone if needed or just to have on hand just in case(first aid kit for your darts) or just for future use. kristy


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## keekalmatter (Aug 9, 2008)

oh ok
I figured it would be something like that.
Thanks, I'll probably send him an e-mail as I get closer to getting my frogs.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

you're welcome and he'll give you the details on how to package up the fecals properly and when to send. kristy


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Here's an article I did on quarentine and treatment, it should help.
http://www.freewebs.com/kapoktree2/quarentine.htm


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I've been thinking of responding to this thread as I see alot of good points being made.

First I'll state I'm very new to PDF's as I haven't even gotten them yet I'm still setting up the viv and working out all the details including the fumbles I've already made...

However I am not new to keeping and caring for living creatures in any sense of the word.

Even though I have not practiced alot of quarantine I can tell you it will save you alot of headache. About the only quarantine I've done so far are plants that appear to have pests that may not just "wash away" and a stray cat we brought in when we already had 2 cats.

One of the biggest mistakes I have seen in this sense is in pet stores (including the one I used to work in). Very rarely did we quarantine. Once in awhile if the animal looked sick or there was other reason for suspicion. However one of the most quarantined animals were lizards (we didn't have many frogs). I also remember we used to get massive infestations of mites throughout the reptiles and rodents. We would have to clean and bleach ever infested cage daily. My boss also had a very good pesticide that seemed to have absolutely no effect on the animals however I WILL STRESS THAT WE HAD VERY VERY FEW FROGS and therefore would NOT recommend it. We used to use the "No Pest" strips you can buy in the grocery store. The trick was to cut them into smaller pieces about 1" so that they weren't extremely strong.

However this is a very good example of what happens when you don't quarantine. I was about to just stick the Riccia Moss I just got in the tank I'm building thinking it was not likely to have anything in it that would hurt anything. Second one I opened had a snail on the paper towel. A very tiny one. So now it is sitting in my kitchen in a bowl with water and no access to the sides sealed with saran wrap with a tube going into it feeding C02. No idea if this will work but it's worth a try. I'm just glad I hadn't even taken it out of the plastic containers yet.

I've got 2 extra 20 gallon tanks so I'm considering making these into makeshift quarentine tanks (if I get more than 2 frogs) I'm starting to think only 1 as more than 2 frogs might start breeding too much for me to take care of.

Just thought I would chime in on that. Quarantine will not fix all of your problems but it has the potential to save you alot of headache if something is wrong. Cleaning a quarantine tank of mites and rebuilding your vivarium after sterilizing it are 2 very different things.

EDIT: I did forget to add that it is NOT the biggest mistake made by a long shot. I inhereted a Water Dragon years ago. Someone that was a friend of my friend dropped it off at his house on their way to move to Florida saying they couldn't take it with them. It was in horrid condition and no wonder why! It was a WATER Dragon in a 10 gallon desert setup! All sand, nothing to climb on, and a soda cap of water. It only went downhill from there. I wasn't supposed to have pets in my apartment and so had to refuse it at first. No not even lizards were allowed. The friend of mine got a nice big tank for it and gave it a large bowl for water and some bark but in all was totally uninterestedin taking care of it. As it's health started to decline I started to go to my friends a few times a week to feed it. Then the light went out and my friend didn't replace it. No heat, no light for weeks. 

I finally said the hell with my landlord and brought it home much to the unhappiness of my boyfriend at the time. The Water Dragon was so emaciated and lethargic it could have been mistaken for a dead corpse. I spent the next few months force feeding it Stimulap and Crushed Wax Worms. Last I saw it as I dropped it off at a reptile rescue center 2 hours or so from here since I had become homeless at the time she (the water dragon was female) was fat, sassy, and very happy and healthy.  

So not quarantining worst mistake? No. Not by a long shot. But it is a very good practice.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

otis07 said:


> Here's an article I did on quarentine and treatment, it should help.
> http://www.freewebs.com/kapoktree2/quarentine.htm


the site is good and is do-able about the q-t tanks....although it seems a bit easier to use the 190 0z tubs(stackable) and/or lightweight sterilite bins(both methods cheaper) versus actual tanks which can get heavy and awkward when you need to sanitize it for the next treatment....i would also offer a bit more hiding places such as sanitized pothos cuttings...i also like to make makeshift cocohuts so they can retreat to one with a hole in it like our cocohuts in our permanent vivs, only plastic and sanitizable for the next round of treatment. i try to make mine as stress-free for the darts as i can. kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

dwdragon said:


> I've been thinking of responding to this thread as I see alot of good points being made.
> 
> First I'll state I'm very new to PDF's as I haven't even gotten them yet I'm still setting up the viv and working out all the details including the fumbles I've already made...
> 
> ...


so what would you say is the worst mistake, other than not being prepared with food etc? I would put not quarantining and fecaling as one of the biggest mistakes of all. I have gotten in darts from well-known breeders with various parasite issues. luckily treatable and curable. I know i want my darts to live a long life as they should and parasites being very common. kristy


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

i usually use the 190 oz tubs, but for the tincs it was too small. but i agree completely, they are way easier to use. and i am not sure why there was no leaves in there, i always put oak leaves in and just replace them when i clean, that pic must have been inbetween cleaning i guess, i need to update it though.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

otis07 said:


> i usually use the 190 oz tubs, but for the tincs it was too small. but i agree completely, they are way easier to use. and i am not sure why there was no leaves in there, i always put oak leaves in and just replace them when i clean, that pic must have been inbetween cleaning i guess, i need to update it though.


sounds more like it. the website is pretty by the way. wasn't trying to get down on you either as you had everything down pat and what you said could have been just between cleanings :wink: the 190 0z tubs do work for tincs and many have used them, just may be a bit more stressful than say a bigger sterilite bin. the ten gallons work as well just the same but are a bigger job to clean out due to their heavyness, whatever top you have on it, and awkward trying to rinse out a bleach solution fully. the down side to sterilite bins, they need to be weighted down to prevent ff escapees. i use barbells from the hubbies weightlifting equipment which he hasn't used in quite some time lol..shame on him! :wink: I use this as a rule of thumb when it comes to my quarantines for treating, one dart tinc size or less per 190 0z container with damp paper towels, makeshoft plastic cocohut, and sanitized pothos cuttings, or if they seem to stress i use the sterilite bins, also offers a not so clear view so they arent so stressed by the openness of the clear 190 0z tubs. two thumbs per tub. one dart bigger than thumbs per 190 0z and sometimes upgrading to a sterilite bin. Ten gallons would work just as equally, only a bigger pain in the butt due to weight, but maybe easier for a male than a woman  yeah i admitted it! males do have some extra leeway lol kristy


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

kristy55303 said:


> so what would you say is the worst mistake, other than not being prepared with food etc? I would put not quarantining and fecaling as one of the biggest mistakes of all. I have gotten in darts from well-known breeders with various parasite issues. luckily treatable and curable. I know i want my darts to live a long life as they should and parasites being very common. kristy


Kristy, quarantine wouldn't do any good for a dart from someone puts in a totally wrong environment or tried to feed vegitables to would it?

I've found people who jump into owning a "pet" without one iota of knowledge about how to care for the species they got to be the absolute biggest and worst mistake ever. It causes long term serious suffering for the animal if it even lives. Yes, people do this with what some people would consider to be expensive animals mostly birds and repiles. I can't tell you the horrors I saw come into the pet store because people were tired of the animal "always being sick" "can't afford the food" "my boyfriend doesn't like it" etc etc etc. And these animals had to be nursed back to health and at times taken to the vet by my boss. Thankfully I had a very caring boss who actually cared about the animals and not just the money which is probably why he went out of business. 

On top of my personal experience with the Water Dragon here's another one for you....

A couple came into the pet store and asked if we would help with their injured Rosey Tailed Boa. They were too stupid to figure out that hours on a metal dash board with the heater on would burn the crap out of the snake. My boss told them to bring the snake in and get the hell out of his shop before he called the police. The guy had the balls to ask if he could have the snake back when it was healed. I thought my boss was going to kill him. We put salve and antibiotics on the boa for months. She finally shed the last of the burns off and was healthy the last I saw her as she was still at the shop when I stopped working there. Kinda hard to find someone to buy an already 8ft boa in a small town.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

i think she was generalizing, most people who know how to research how to properly quarentine are also going to research how to house and feed them as well. i suppose not all people, but i would guess the majority of people would. 

kristy, i have changed my qt. practices from then, now when i use use the 10 gallons i use two; take the frogs out of one and put them directly in the other and then i have time to thoroughly clean the other. the glass lids i just soak in baking pan, a 10% bleach solution and then rinse thoroughly. 



> i use barbells from the hubbies weightlifting equipment which he hasn't used in quite some time lol..shame on him


you gotta get on him about that :wink:


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Otis, I understand why everyone says that not Quarantining is the biggest mistake. But I wouldn't say by beginners. I would put it as one of the worst mistakes made by someone with experience or knowledge. 

However, If we want to name #1 worst mistake it would be common sense. I think quarantine falls under this catagory as well.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

dwdragon said:


> Otis, I understand why everyone says that not Quarantining is the biggest mistake. But I wouldn't say by beginners. I would put it as one of the worst mistakes made by someone with experience or knowledge.
> 
> However, If we want to name #1 worst mistake it would be common sense. I think quarantine falls under this catagory as well.


otis lol on the barbells :wink: atleast they are being used! he he and your quarantines are fine, just heavy for me :wink: 
dwdragon: research is done first, set up a viv with proper husbandry in mind ...get it seeded with isopods/springtails, culture your ff(staple food) get your darts and quarantine and fecal. it is a lot of wasted time not doing so, wasted money, and what about the conservation efforts? its for beginners too. thats why the thread is there. It is a huge mistake IMO. like i said its my opinion and i believe a lot of others agree.. it is after all....in the begiiners section of this board. kristy


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Kristy,

I think that is the point being missed in my posted.

I do believe not quarantining is a huge mistake. The same as I thoroughly rinse every plant and steralize logs and rocks and every other piece that has gone in the tank.

However, I'm pointing out that it's not the worst.

I look at it this way. If you play russian roulette with 1 bullet you are gambling. This would be not quarantining. There are other mistakes that load every bullet in the gun and then pull the trigger. That's a certain death not a chance.

To be honest yes mentioning the other mistakes in this board is probably not really needed. If the person got this far they probably have the common sense to know they need some knowledge. But unfortunately I can tell you from experience probably 40 - 50% of people who have animals in their care rarely look that far and unfortunately it's the animals who pay.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

otis07 said:


> Here's an article I did on quarentine and treatment, it should help.
> http://www.freewebs.com/kapoktree2/quarentine.htm


imho what you are describing here is how to quarantine animals you already have and apear sick.
It is also very important to quarantine new frogs that are looking healthy because they can infect the rest of your collection. I think having the fecals tested is not enough. It's not because they don't have parasites that they cannot infect your tanks and collection with other nasty (probably much more dangerous) things like fungus, virusses , bacterial infections, ...
Many of the diseases can take a long time to develop so a quarantine periode of a few days isn't enough.
And even after 2 months of quarantining you can still not be sure you don't introduce anything in your collection, but you will have eliminated at least a big part of the risk.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

you are correct, the articile is on how to quarentine when treating sick animals. i explained in the beginning that there was two reasons to quarentinel; diagnosing an animal, and treating it.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

First off, threads with headlines like "please quarantine please" do not get the read/attention that "NOT Quarantining is Quite Probably the Biggest Mistake Made" , so , if you guys want to argue the semantics of my title , go right ahead. 
The fact of the matter is that 90%+ of those who buy frogs for the very first time are told what to feed the frogs, have some idea of what type container to put them in ,what temps are OK, and are even now coming around to the idea of not mixing species. But, but, but, this is not the case with 90%+ of beginners with quarantine. In-fact there are many, many non-newbies who know pretty much exactly what will keep their frogs alive as far as food stuffs, habitat , and the like, but still do not quarantine, and still, still, refuse to test their animals to make sure that they are not spreading disease around to everybody they sell their stuff to.

Rich


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I know it seems silly to point out that it may not be the biggest mistake. 

I fully understand what you are saying as I stated in a previous post we didn't even quarantine in the pet store which is likely what led to the death of about 1/2 our large lizards including several 4ft or longer Iguanas and a Burundi (spelling?) Nile Monitor which I had die in my lap as I was trying to warm it up in the sun and force feed it electrolytes.

Just as you feel strongly about quarantine and not mixing species I feel strongly about emphasizing 1 topic too much and especially for beginners. The only topic I would shout at the top of my lungs with a megaphone for a beginner would be to read everything you can, ask as many questions as possible, and make sure to wait atleast 3 - 6 months while constantly researching after getting the idea you want a specific animal.

With that advice they would likely find everything needed including quarantine although the practice of quarantine when you have more than 1 of something has always seemed kind of like a DUH! thing to me. It also makes complete sense for a beginner that has no other animals when you are setting up a mini environment as apposed to just a cage with some toys and a bird in it or a cat litter box.

That is unless you enjoy wasting money and time on more animals and supplies as you totally rip the 1 environment apart and rebuild it because the animal died of a disease or other reason that infected the environment. And then pray to the "I made a foolish decision lords" that you only had the 1!


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I think we are mostly on the same page. 
But, ones man's "DUH!" towards quarantine, is another pet shop's (pet shop, as in we think they should know what they are doing) "WUHH??"
Simply put, everybody quarantine , every time, from every breeder you buy or trade frogs from or to.

Rich


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## flybuster (Feb 27, 2009)

i didnt read all 10 pages someone may have touched on this . yes when i add a frog to any of my existing vivs i qt and send fecals but i recently bought a 4 year old proven pair and put them straight into a new clean viv without qt still sending out fecal on both as soon as i catch my female in the act.i think this may be te exception to the rule .i agree with whomever said if one has it they both do "after this long" i would lose maybe 100 bucks if i had to rip the viv down and start over. so in this case do you still recomend a seperate qt? and further stress adult frogs who just moved for the first time since tads.


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## Nate (Jan 5, 2009)

If I was buying frogs from some internet site or they were being shipped to me, of course I would quarantine them! But as I will be buying them from Pete Mertens whom I am sure I can trust + I have asked about how often he gets fecals done and the last major outbreak of anything, he has answered truth fully and I don't see why I should quarantine a little frog when it just stresses him and his/parents fecals were great. (I know someone is going to give me a reason quarantine them...)


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## beachbabe18509 (Oct 29, 2007)

Peace said:


> If I was buying frogs from some internet site or they were being shipped to me, of course I would quarantine them! But as I will be buying them from Pete Mertens whom I am sure I can trust + I have asked about how often he gets fecals done and the last major outbreak of anything, he has answered truth fully and I don't see why I should quarantine a little frog when it just stresses him and his/parents fecals were great. (I know someone is going to give me a reason quarantine them...)


I purchased a frog last year from a very reputable breeder who told me the frog I was purchasing had recently come back with a clean fecal and what not, but I still qt and sent out fecals and low and behold, hookworms, yes they are an extremely common parasite, and not hard to treat, but my other frogs didn't have them, had I just plopped her in the tank they would have gone in with her....

I don't believe you would be sold a sick frog purposely but, It's just better to be safe than sorry because if you find out later, then you have to rip the viv apart and start over...


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Peace said:


> If I was buying frogs from some internet site or they were being shipped to me, of course I would quarantine them! But as I will be buying them from Pete Mertens whom I am sure I can trust + I have asked about how often he gets fecals done and the last major outbreak of anything, he has answered truth fully and I don't see why I should quarantine a little frog when it just stresses him and his/parents fecals were great. (I know someone is going to give me a reason quarantine them...)


 
Wow. Been awhile since this one has been added to. I am overjoyed to see that people are digging through the archives. Well done.
I consider myself a very reputable breeder. I care about my frogs, others' frogs, and the hobby very much. I have a brother who runs all my fecals, necropsies, and any other testing he can do for free. I test all my frogs no matter who I get them from . Every time. I have no alterior motives in telling everybody to quarantine . As a breeder , if your frogs die, I sell more frogs. From a simple business point of view. This is not about business. 
If you purchase frogs from me, get fecals done and go through a thorough quarantine. Every time. There are too many possible (unknown and known) ways that parasites and other disease that does not show for possible months , if not years, can and will contaminate frogs. Pete is a great guy and produces very nice frogs. Quarantine and test each group of frogs you get from him, me, or _any other breeder out there today_ . It is that simple.
I found that during testing the very most diseased frogs I have ever received, and one of the top five most diseased frogs my brother had ever had the displeasure of running a necropsy on , two days after my frogs arrived, came from a breeder that many froggers here would consider one of the very biggest names, and I suppose therefore thought of as one of the very most reputable breeders, in the hobby today.
Quarantine every frog, every time. period.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

flybuster said:


> i didnt read all 10 pages someone may have touched on this . yes when i add a frog to any of my existing vivs i qt and send fecals but i recently bought a 4 year old proven pair and put them straight into a new clean viv without qt still sending out fecal on both as soon as i catch my female in the act.i think this may be te exception to the rule .i agree with whomever said if one has it they both do "after this long" i would lose maybe 100 bucks if i had to rip the viv down and start over. so in this case do you still recomend a seperate qt? and further stress adult frogs who just moved for the first time since tads.


 
If you have no qualms about possibly ripping apart a contaminated tank, then by all means put them right in and use it as a quarantine tank. I have actually used sparsely planted small vivs in such a way.But four year old breeders that look and act perfectly healthy have been known not to be. 
But , if you are worried about stress due to a lost mate, then have no fear. Darts are not social creatures and actually, when not driven to breed do best by themselves. There is a lack of stress when not being constantly harassed for sex...I've been told
.

Rich


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## flybuster (Feb 27, 2009)

lol, ive heard that to...and yes thats exactley it sparsley planted enough for comefort but not expensive. viv is kept in my office not with the rest of my frogs seperate cultures and sprayers just didnt seperate them. if a fecal came back bad of course i would seperate treat and retest the negative. i would like to hear your oppinions about this .... a four year pair or any tankmates for that matter regardless of age do you think they would share parasites or is there a possibilty of one infected and one not. more specifially purchased pairs than bred..knock on wood ive never had problem.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

flybuster said:


> lol, ive heard that to...and yes thats exactley it sparsley planted enough for comefort but not expensive. viv is kept in my office not with the rest of my frogs seperate cultures and sprayers just didnt seperate them. if a fecal came back bad of course i would seperate treat and retest the negative. i would like to hear your oppinions about this .... a four year pair or any tankmates for that matter regardless of age do you think they would share parasites or is there a possibilty of one infected and one not. more specifially purchased pairs than bred..knock on wood ive never had problem.


If one has 'x' it is about 100% certainty that the mate has 'x' also.

Rich


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## flybuster (Feb 27, 2009)

i agree thats why im not fully on board with seperate qt as long as the rest of the frogs remain safe. it just seemed unnecessary"in this case" but by all means qt any frog before adding them to another viv with "clean" animals...always


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Yes I quarantine but feel this subject is like "beating a dead horse" all should do it but it should be left to the individual if they want to or not and if they run into problems just a small part of them will be due to the quarantine method. Hey my opinion.

Do not want to step on any toes here but feel this subject is just too much.
Rich I am aware of your knowledge in this hobby and appreciate the specialization of your brother and all he does to educate all of us as well your addition to the knowledge, breeding and advice. 

-Beth


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

I am a huge believer in quarantining/having fecals done on my frogs. This is in part due to the fact that a year and a half ago I bought a breeding trio of Giant Orange's for $600. I had never considered qt'ing or testing but soon after i got them they started showing signs that they were not healthy. I sent in fecal samples and learned they had coccidia, not necessarily a death sentence, but if you were relying on the frogs to justify why you had gone all in/overboard with frogs to your wife it might as well have been. I could never sell the offspring (if there ever were any) and the stress of their recent move / my less than perfect qt'ing/treatment caused they all ended up dying. So then I tested the rest of my collection and learned that another unsexed pair of GO's had coccidia as well. While I will never know if they came that way from the original breeder, I had not been very careful when moving from one GO tank to the other because I had intended to pair one male from the trio with a probable female I already had. Bottom line I will never know, but my one tank of Coccidia may have in effect doomed alomst $900 worth of frogs to a lifetime of incurable coccidia...

Point of this story is simply that as excited as we all get when we get new frogs, there are some simple common sense steps that we should strongly consider. You should think about your long term plans too. Because if you experience any kind of breeding success and eventually post an ad for frogs the first question I'll ask you (and hopefully others) is if you have had them tested.


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

Although I generally agree that quarantine is part of proper husbandry procedures I think there is one thing you are overlooking...

That is: they are new. I'm not saying this to imply they will make mistakes, of course that will happen. But what I mean is that usually somebody who is new or has just gotten their first set of frogs wants to "see them in action" already and does not want to spend 2 weeks QTing them. Yes, I agree with you it isn't necessarily right but I'm pretty confident to say that breaking that aspect of human psychology will be pretty difficult....esp for how much time+research a (properly informed) beginner must do just to get the frogs.

Not to mention that most people who only have a few frogs at most (beginners right?) will not have extra tanks nor will they even *care* enough about taking the frogs to the vet. Especially at those prices! I'm pretty sure the standard beginner mindset is that "i bought these from a reputable breeder so they are healthy". I find that once someone gets to the point where they are considering doing fecals, they tend to already be past the point of "beginner" and at the very least at a solid "hobbyist" level.


I'm not saying its right, I'm just trying to be realistic....


but at its core, you are absolutely right. the problem is implementation and getting the masses to behave...


EDIT: there is always the fact that newer / non-serious animal keepers tend to wait until its too late / after the fact to take their animals to the vets even when they KNOW they should..


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## SavannaZilla (Jan 19, 2011)

> Although I generally agree that quarantine is part of proper husbandry procedures I think there is one thing you are overlooking...
> 
> That is: they are new. I'm not saying this to imply they will make mistakes, of course that will happen. But what I mean is that usually somebody who is new or has just gotten their first set of frogs wants to "see them in action" already and does not want to spend 2 weeks QTing them. Yes, I agree with you it isn't necessarily right but I'm pretty confident to say that breaking that aspect of human psychology will be pretty difficult....esp for how much time+research a (properly informed) beginner must do just to get the frogs.
> 
> ...


I agree with all that is said. Most newbies wouldn't even think about doing fecals or QTing. I have to confess that with my first frogs, I just put them in the tank. But, I haven't gotten any in a while, and the ones that I have are tads growing up. Should I still quarantine them? I just don't know, because they are in my care already.


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