# Anyone bought from this site?



## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Exotic Reptiles For Sale!
They have Pumilio Blue jeans for 80 bucks. I'm wondering if they are legit or not. Also i'm new here and this forum seems great. Thanks.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

They are likely O. pumilio from a Panama local, such as Mancreek, Almirante, etc. True Blue Jeans are from Costa Rica, which no longer exports frogs.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Curly,

Welcome! I haven't seen any adult captive-born Blue Jeans offered (mostly captive-born froglets/juveniles from wild-collected parents). The babies sell for about $250, so this site doesn't sound like something I would pursue.

You would be better served getting to know some of the members here and buy your frogs directly from the person who bred them, not some buy and sell mega-petstore.

Take care, Richard.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

curlykid said:


> Exotic Reptiles For Sale!
> They have Pumilio Blue jeans for 80 bucks. I'm wondering if they are legit or not. Also i'm new here and this forum seems great. Thanks.


welcome.....there's plenty of people on here who can give you sound advice and steer you in the right direction to purchase frogs. Blue jeans for only $80 probably have a Hollister tag on them!


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Its BS. I have sent them three emails asking about them and their lineage and they wont respond. I told them if they could prove they are in fact true blue jeans Id take them all.
Also told them its a slap in the hobby's face to mislead new hobbyists on what the frogs are. It leads to hybridization and many other issues.

Michael


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

poison beauties said:


> Its BS. I have sent them three emails asking about them and their lineage and they wont respond. I told them if they could prove they are in fact true blue jeans Id take them all.
> Also told them its a slap in the hobby's face to mislead new hobbyists on what the frogs are. It leads to hybridization and many other issues.
> 
> Michael


wonder why you didn't hear back...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

This thread appears to be advertising spam...._VERY_ interesting 1st post


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Good point Phil. They surely aren't happy with my replies. Gave them my email, phone number and offered to help as well but nothing. They clearly wish to mislead people.
Just another reason I say our hobby is now more of a congregation of business's. Once the money maid is valued more than the frogs is too late.


Michael


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Search fauna classifieds. It's worth a look.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Third times a charm or they dont like the feedback on here......

Michael,

These are very valid concerns for someone of your Dart Frog knowledge caliber. Just for the record, I am the middle man so I actually do not see or interact with any of the live merchandise sold on my website. However, just today my Dart Frog supplier sent me further information on the specific type of Blue Jeans frog this is. The list they provided was: "Man Creek, Almirante, Basti, Cauchero, and Cristobal". I will be making this notation on my website shortly to avoid any potential confusion between the true Blue Jeans Pumilio Dart frog and the numerous subspecies that go by the name "Blue Jeans."

Thank you,
Robert Crespo
Exotic Reptiles For Sale!


I offered to help out and explained the obvious issues with this situation so will let you know what I get back.

Michael


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

They are clearly getting from Strictly 

Strictly Reptiles - Wholesale Reptiles and Amphibians


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> They are clearly getting from Strictly
> 
> Strictly Reptiles - Wholesale Reptiles and Amphibians


Yep, just checked their price list. $40 ea in 6 lots. Auratus are like $12


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Yeah i was really weary of them. I knew it couldn't be a blue jeans but had to be sure. Thanks for the warm welcome!


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

At least the guy admitted he didn't know what the hell he was selling. You sorta gotta hand it to the guy. Robert Crespo notices a niche market for exotic pets. Realizes you can't get much but overpriced anoles, green iguanas, and ball pythons at pet chains. Hires a web designer from a college campus for $15/hour and sets up a google adsense account and a paypal account. Once his site is up and he's established his drop ship contracts with a wholesaler, he just sits back and collects checks. He never has to touch a single animal or fill a single order. His website automatically routes orders to the supplier. Maybe once a week he answers some customer e-mails for a few hours to keep people like us off his back. Automated income. Smarter than me working for the man every day.


I feel like the real lack of morality is with the breeder(s) supplying his customers. Certainly bypasses any and all responsibility for ensuring the darts go to someone who knows how to care for them. By the way, where was the logic in naming a business "strictly reptiles" then selling amphibians and arachnids all kinds of crustaceans??? seems they're taking the more liberal interpretation of the word "strictly" ...

okay ... rant over. whew.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

btcope said:


> At least the guy admitted he didn't know what the hell he was selling. You sorta gotta hand it to the guy. Robert Crespo notices a niche market for exotic pets. Realizes you can't get much but overpriced anoles, green iguanas, and ball pythons at pet chains. Hires a web designer from a college campus for $15/hour and sets up a google adsense account and a paypal account. Once his site is up and he's established his drop ship contracts with a wholesaler, he just sits back and collects checks. He never has to touch a single animal or fill a single order. His website automatically routes orders to the supplier. Maybe once a week he answers some customer e-mails for a few hours to keep people like us off his back. Automated income. Smarter than me working for the man every day.
> 
> 
> I feel like the real lack of morality is with the breeder(s) supplying his customers. Certainly bypasses any and all responsibility for ensuring the darts go to someone who knows how to care for them. By the way, where was the logic in naming a business "strictly reptiles" then selling amphibians and arachnids all kinds of crustaceans??? seems they're taking the more liberal interpretation of the word "strictly" ...
> ...


I'll get out the hobby and just read books before I sell him, or anyone like him a _single_ frog.....


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

poison beauties said:


> It leads to hybridization and many other issues.


Technically it doesn't lead to hybridization...unless having frogs of unknown provenance compels people to cross two completely different _species. _ Hate to be a stickler, but we have to be careful about the words we use: sometimes terms are used on here too flippantly and things are miscommunicated that could have been averted had the correct meaning been used/known in the first place.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I actually looked at the add when this thread first appeared and after a generic name it said in parenthesis the Man Creek Almirente etc description, which is more info than most vendors of this type offer. Anybody looking for a specific type of Pumilio SHOULD recognize these names, if he takes good care of his animals there is no reason for complaint here.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

markpulawski said:


> I actually looked at the add when this thread first appeared and after a generic name it said in parenthesis the Man Creek Almirente etc description, which is more info than most vendors of this type offer. Anybody looking for a specific type of Pumilio SHOULD recognize these names, if he takes good care of his animals there is no reason for complaint here.


Wow Mark....

You don't see any problem with the misleading picture and the fact that they splash the word "blue Jeans" around in an obvious attempt to cash in on the one , pumilio buzz word?

If we don't slam this kind of blatant, false advertising, then the bar is truly set low to the ground.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Phil when I see Stawberry Blue Jeans and then followed by (Man Creek Almirente) which to me says specifically what they are then no I don't see anything misleading. Do you think if this guy was trying to pass these off as Costa Rican Blue Jeans he would have mentioned the site names in the add?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

skylsdale said:


> Technically it doesn't lead to hybridization...unless having frogs of unknown provenance compels people to cross two completely different _species. _ Hate to be a stickler, but we have to be careful about the words we use: sometimes terms are used on here too flippantly and things are miscommunicated that could have been averted had the correct meaning been used/known in the first place.


And how do you know this? Ive been to many of theses herp shops over the years delivering my cb monitors and pythons NOT FROGS and they are almost always mixed in the vivs. How can you say it doesn't lead to hybridizing. Crossing them together whether tincs, pums, auratus of different locales is bad enough but Ive seen this with completely different species over the years. You don't think people just buy one do you? Let me know when the hobby looks at crossing pum locales as being better than hybridization and I will bail on this hobby no worries. I
I have been talking to him since the first response. Those pum of MANY locales or subspecies are mixed in the vivs. They are not being kept separate so how can you say they are not being split off into mixed pairs or groups. Too Much of a risk for me.
Like I said I offered him all the help he wanted even down to him asking me what he should call them if they are not Blue Jean pumiio.

Michael


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

pumilio are the strawberry poison frog, not blue jeans poison frog.


markpulawski said:


> Phil when I see Stawberry Blue Jeans and then followed by (Man Creek Almirente) which to me says specifically what they are then no I don't see anything misleading. Do you think if this guy was trying to pass these off as Costa Rican Blue Jeans he would have mentioned the site names in the add?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

markpulawski said:


> Phil when I see Stawberry Blue Jeans and then followed by (Man Creek Almirente) which to me says specifically what they are then no I don't see anything misleading. Do you think if this guy was trying to pass these off as Costa Rican Blue Jeans he would have mentioned the site names in the add?


The hobby has recognized that the word "Blue Jeans" is entirely a Costa Rican morph (possibly soon to accept Nicaraguan) and should never be used with any Panamanian animals.

Even the Academic community uses the colloquial "Strawberry Poison Dart frog" solely" with never a reference to the words "blue jeans"

We have got to try to put a stop to all this "Blue Jean" mislabeling. It's bad for the hobby and new people trying to spend their money correctly.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> The hobby has recognized that the word "Blue Jeans" is entirely a Costa Rican morph (possibly soon to accept Nicaraguan). . .


 Up until a couple years ago, I believe the vast majority of the 'blue jeans' pumilio in the hobby were of Nicaraguan origin - before the CR animals came in from the EU. I really wish 'blue jeans' would stop being used as a 'morph' designator - the red/blue theme is one of the most widespread color combinations in O. pumilio, and to the vast majority of people, a 'blue jeans' is a red frog with blue legs, nothing more.

How many red/blue pumilio occur in Costa Rica or Nicaragua? Under the current 'naming scheme', wouldn't these all be considered 'blue jeans'?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

zBrinks said:


> Up until a couple years ago, I believe the vast majority of the 'blue jeans' pumilio in the hobby were of Nicaraguan origin - before the* "CR"* animals came in from the EU. I really wish 'blue jeans' would stop being used as a 'morph' designator - the red/blue theme is one of the most widespread color combinations in O. pumilio, and to the vast majority of people, a 'blue jeans' is a red frog with blue legs, nothing more.
> 
> How many red/blue pumilio occur in Costa Rica or Nicaragua? Under the current 'naming scheme', wouldn't these all be considered 'blue jeans'?


Fixed your post for ya....

Blue Jeans and Black Jeans, still seem to be a useful morph designation IMHO...those morphs are never found in Panama, for instance, so we have a decent geographic line boundry that helps us there.....


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Fixed your post for ya....


 It wasn't in need of fixing, if we're going to base conclusions on the best available information, which is done with every other frog in the hobby . . .



Philsuma said:


> Blue Jeans and Black Jeans, still seem to be a useful morph designation IMHO...those morphs are never found in Panama, for instance, so we have a decent geographic line boundry that helps us there.....


 But these 'morphs' cover a wide variety of different locales - it would be like calling all black and yellow tinctorius from Suriname "Bumble Bee Tincs" or something similar.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

WHy not just call them by their name. ManCreek Pumilio, Almarinte Pumilio, Tinc. Regina, Tinc. YellowBack.
New hobbyists will never learn if we dont completely drop the old saying. We need to push the KS dealers to do the same. 

Michael


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Until we get loacale data from where they were collected the next larger grouping we have is blue jeans. Almirante, man creek, etc. are specific locales and should never be lumped in w/ the blue jeans that were brought in years ago. W/ these last imported from EU should be split off and classified as from where they were collected, since it should be known. Eventually we'll have the lumped blue jeans classification and the site specific locations from the groups that have been brought in since. Confusing, a little, but I can't think of another way to classify them w/out dumping anything that came in w/out site specific data. 

If you allow blue jeans to mean any red and blue pumilio, why not just call them red and blue pumilio. Blue jeans does have meaning if the panama red and blues aren't lumped in w/ anything from costa rica.




zBrinks said:


> It wasn't in need of fixing, if we're going to base conclusions on the best available information, which is done with every other frog in the hobby . . .
> 
> 
> 
> But these 'morphs' cover a wide variety of different locales - it would be like calling all black and yellow tinctorius from Suriname "Bumble Bee Tincs" or something similar.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Its done because the term blue jeans to most hobbyists means rare and money. That is simple. If actual Blue Jeans were 30 dollar frogs they would call the Almirante or Cristobal Pumilio. Its all about money


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Aaron I know what the community calls a Pumilio and both names have been used over the years, when Blue Jeans was coined there were no Panamanian blue & red Pumilio coming in, the name Blue Jeans is meaningless when it comes to ID of a site specific frog....as is Strawberry frog, an all blue strawberry a green and black strawberry, Blue Jeans from Nic, many spots in CR, Panamanian frogs. Strawberry frog also was also the descriptor of Blue Jeans as many were red with black speckling like seeds in a strawberry so both names refer to 1 morph as back then Blue Jeans and Black Jeans were interchangable.
Like it or not Blue Jeans is a generic name for a blue and red Pumilio to most out there and yes a % of us consider Blue Jeans a true Costa Rican Pumilio and that % of people would research what they are getting, when someone selling Blue Jean as Man Creek & Almirente I have no doubt they are offering Panamanian frogs and not trying to deceive anyone.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

That "madagascariensis" I'm pretty sure is a baroni 

Now now, let us realize that we have matured from average pet owners with one or two frogs to real hobbyists, so we are "elitists" at this point. Don't be so critical  While yes, I want beginners that get into the hobby actually know what they're getting, but I think you dart frog people are spoiled rotten  with all the locale, morph, and bloodline information.

I've known many mantella keepers that bought one species to end up getting something totally different. Blushing, or Isalo Massif expectata were "contaminants" in shipments of standard expectata and ebenaui, which we formerly called "betsileo." At one time, people mislabeled pulchra as cowani, or milos as aurantiaca. 

Very few wholesalers can tell the difference between baroni, mads, and some forms of pulchra.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

poison beauties said:


> And how do you know this? Ive been to many of theses herp shops over the years delivering my cb monitors and pythons NOT FROGS and they are almost always mixed in the vivs. How can you say it doesn't lead to hybridizing.


Because, by very definition of the word, it's not. A hybrid is the result of two seperate SPECIES...like crossing a llama with an alpaca or rainbow trout with a cutthroat trout. The mixing of animals that are the SAME species but from seperate locales or populations is called outcrossing. No, I don't agree with the purposeful act of either in the Dendrobatid hobby...in that we agree. My problem was your interchanging of two terms.



> You don't think people just buy one do you? Let me know when the hobby looks at *crossing pum locales* as being better than hybridization and I will bail on this hobby no worries.


Again, that's called outcrossing. My point is that you can't discourage people from doing something you yourself don't seem fully knowledgable about (i.e. using the term of one action to describe another).

We are actually in agreement about the issue, but I think you are failing to see my point: 

You have a problem with someone mixing frogs and selling them to people without the proper labels (you claim its irresponsible and damaging). I am saying the same thing: you are using terms and communicating problems to people without the proper labels, which can lead to even more confusion and damage.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes I did leave out the term out crossing in my post. Glad to see it was a wording issue and not a wish to promote anything like that. 
I explained this in detail to the Manager or Owner Robert Crespo and told him Id be glad to help if he needed any other info.
On the grounds of not being knowledgeable on counter productive breeding for this hobby's best interest I mis worded it yes but I do know plenty about it.

Michael


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

So what do you suppose we call costa rican blue jeans? Also strawberry was red bastimentos pumilio, not blue jeans. Both names have been used to represent certain frogs . Back then we only got costa rican blue jeans and that's all that was called blue jeans. IMO blue jeans refers to a certain pumilio and shouldn't refer generically to red and blue pumilio unless we're talking frogs that came in back then from cr. And there are no site specific cr blue jeans, so how do we break those down? I remember blue jeans and black jeans from back then(not interchangeable) and remember bastis being strawberries, not blue or black jeans.



markpulawski said:


> Aaron I know what the community calls a Pumilio and both names have been used over the years, when Blue Jeans was coined there were no Panamanian blue & red Pumilio coming in, the name Blue Jeans is meaningless when it comes to ID of a site specific frog....as is Strawberry frog, an all blue strawberry a green and black strawberry, Blue Jeans from Nic, many spots in CR, Panamanian frogs. Strawberry frog also was also the descriptor of Blue Jeans as many were red with black speckling like seeds in a strawberry so both names refer to 1 morph as back then Blue Jeans and Black Jeans were interchangable.
> Like it or not Blue Jeans is a generic name for a blue and red Pumilio to most out there and yes a % of us consider Blue Jeans a true Costa Rican Pumilio and that % of people would research what they are getting, when someone selling Blue Jean as Man Creek & Almirente I have no doubt they are offering Panamanian frogs and not trying to deceive anyone.


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## calebrez (Dec 9, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> The hobby has recognized that the word "Blue Jeans" is entirely a Costa Rican morph (possibly soon to accept Nicaraguan) and should never be used with any Panamanian animals.
> 
> Even the Academic community uses the colloquial "Strawberry Poison Dart frog" solely" with never a reference to the words "blue jeans"
> 
> We have got to try to put a stop to all this "Blue Jean" mislabeling. It's bad for the hobby and new people trying to spend their money correctly.


I agree. I am new into the hobby and find everything absolutely captivating. The ability to have the detailed information on the frog purchased is invaluable. I hope to make the leap into the "blue jeans" they are absolutely beautiful. If I am going to spend the money I want to make 100% sure of what I am really getting. I hope that makes sense lol


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> So what do you suppose we call costa rican blue jeans? Also strawberry was red bastimentos pumilio, not blue jeans. Both names have been used to represent certain frogs . Back then we only got costa rican blue jeans and that's all that was called blue jeans. IMO blue jeans refers to a certain pumilio and shouldn't refer generically to red and blue pumilio unless we're talking frogs that came in back then from cr. And there are no site specific cr blue jeans, so how do we break those down? I remember blue jeans and black jeans from back then(not interchangeable) and remember bastis being strawberries, not blue or black jeans.


Actually Aaron you are wrong Strawberry was not Basti's, it was speckled Black Jean Pumilio, back then Panama rarely if ever exported frogs and from memory only to institutions for research. Almost all of the original Basti's in the hobby came in through the Florida Keys, not legally mind you, that's why there were only 1 or 2 people producing CB Basti's up until the end of the 90's. And the mixes at the importers were Black Jean & Blue Jean, sometimes one, sometimes the other and sometimes together, they were rarely if ever differentiated by the south Florida importers, most of which if not all brought in & exported through Nicaragua. From the early 90's on I was at these importers 2 - 3 times per year and never did they have Panamanian frogs. Blue & Black Jeans were differentiated by the same people that brought in the Basti's & the Salt Creek & the orginal Yellow Basti's along with a few Auratus morphs during the early to late 90's.
You can call Costa Rican red & blue frogs Blue Jeans and most knowledgable people would expect that is what the name represents. Some people here thought the vendor was trying to scam people by calling frogs Blue Jeans when in fact he ID'd them as Almirente and Man Creek specifically. I called them Strawberry Blue Jeans because it what the ad called them then with specific names after that. I was referring to Strawberry Blue Jeans as a generic name as that is what the ad in question stated.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

The person who brought in the O. pumilio from the EU told me that he had been to the locality of the frog in Costa Rica (which I took to mean that they were collected at that locality). While not wanting to derail this thread into yet another discussion about the legality of those frogs, it would seem prudent to keep frogs from that importation completely separate from any others that might be labelled as "Blue Jeans". These could be called "Costa Rican Blue Jeans/2010 EU Imports" or some such. They clearly represent a distinct cohort from the other frogs labelled similarly.

Just my opinion, Richard.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

^^ Agree

I keep my 2008 import year Eldorado group seperate from my 2009 import year Eldorado group even though they both came from SNDF.

It's just - Best Practice.....based on what we have.


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