# Species identification!



## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

So I went to Repticon today and the guy that sold me this frog couldn't remember the name of it. He said he has the breeders information so I intend on getting a more detailed origin when i can later but to me it looks like a Green Sipaliwini.


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## TropicalDartFrogs (Feb 21, 2012)

I agree with you. Looks like a green sip to me.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Why would you buy a frog from someone who was so poorly versed in the frogs he's selling that he can't even tell you the species. If he can't tell you the species he's certainly not going to be able to tell you anything about line, the parents, maybe not even the age of the frog. Obviously who ever you bought this from is a flipper as he had to look up the "breeders information" 
IMO absolutely nothing good can come from purchasing frogs from people like these, the absolute dregs of the frog hobby. Sure it may have cost you more time to seek out an actual breeder, but the end result would have been much more positive and very much worth the extra effort.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

The species is tinctorius.


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Believe me it took me some time to decide to buy it, he said once he had some time he would email me all of the information but I was still hesitant. The only frogs I own are UE lines and one pair from Saurian Enterprises. I bought him without expectations of breeding anyways since the guy didn't have on hand information so who knows if he will even email me like he said. I just think he's a pretty little guy that would look nice in my display. 
But the guy who sold it to me owns Discovery Pets, he has a legitimate business. I understand its kind of ridiculous for him to be selling something he can't remember the proper name of, it's very unprofessional on his part, but explain to me what a flipper is? Bc I don't see a problem with people who own a retail business buying from a breeder for resale, obviously these people (who typically own full line pet stores) usually aren't nearly as well versed in the frog world as the breeder and have no intentions on trying to breed themselves, they just want to sell them. I know, I know there are all kinds in this world, so the worst is possible and I agree it isn't a good thing when people who aren't experienced sell to a completely inexperienced person but I'm pretty sure if that inexperienced owner found eggs in their tank they would start researching eventually. Either when the eggs and tads keep dying from the improper methods or just to do it right the first time and they will see a forum like this. Where it's plastered everywhere not to breed different morphs together and not to breed frogs from unknown origin. IMO most people genuinely care about the pets they have and will do the right thing. And there's no really stopping the people that don't, and those people that don't are in every hobby everywhere. So I don't see a problem with having bought my frog from the ill educated Discovery Pets guy. I have enough sense to not breed it.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

First guess would be a sip, but I could also see a cobalt come out of that depending on the age. I know some frogs can drastically change colors over the first months of them OOW.


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

I believe it's about 4 months OOW


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## jcgso (Oct 10, 2008)

I have to agree with Rusty on this. I'm a breeder selling at the shows. There are frequently vendors who have bought darts wholesale at the end of shows, then resell at the next show. Typically they know nothing about the frogs. Try to buy from breeders who know what they are selling and the best way to care for the animals.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Whitneyd88 said:


> Believe me it took me some time to decide to buy it, he said once he had some time he would email me all of the information but I was still hesitant. The only frogs I own are UE lines and one pair from Saurian Enterprises. I bought him without expectations of breeding anyways since the guy didn't have on hand information so who knows if he will even email me like he said. I just think he's a pretty little guy that would look nice in my display.
> But the guy who sold it to me owns Discovery Pets, he has a legitimate business. I understand its kind of ridiculous for him to be selling something he can't remember the proper name of, it's very unprofessional on his part, but explain to me what a flipper is? Bc I don't see a problem with people who own a retail business buying from a breeder for resale, obviously these people (who typically own full line pet stores) usually aren't nearly as well versed in the frog world as the breeder and have no intentions on trying to breed themselves, they just want to sell them. I know, I know there are all kinds in this world, so the worst is possible and I agree it isn't a good thing when people who aren't experienced sell to a completely inexperienced person but I'm pretty sure if that inexperienced owner found eggs in their tank they would start researching eventually. Either when the eggs and tads keep dying from the improper methods or just to do it right the first time and they will see a forum like this. Where it's plastered everywhere not to breed different morphs together and not to breed frogs from unknown origin. IMO most people genuinely care about the pets they have and will do the right thing. And there's no really stopping the people that don't, and those people that don't are in every hobby everywhere. So I don't see a problem with having bought my frog from the ill educated Discovery Pets guy. I have enough sense to not breed it.


So you ask what a flipper is and what's wrong with a flipper. Well a flipper can be defined as someone that doesn't breed the frogs they sell but rather buy in wholesale quantities to resell them. The problem is that in many cases in order to make money the flipper buys the frogs and quickly "flips" or sells them as quickly as possible. As hobbyists we follow (or should follow) strict QT protocol to limit the exposure of our existing frogs to any pathogens from newly purchased frogs. The flipper, with their need to move frogs out quickly to make a profit, rarely follows these QT procedures. You can bet there is all kinds of cross contamination. Remember a flipper has a constant movement of frogs in and out of their hands. How can one ensure they health of any of those frogs???

There are people in the frog hobby that never venture on to a forum such as this and have no clue about flippers and how they operate. Those are the victims the flippers prey on. Anyone who is on a forum such as this tends to be a slightly more advanced hobbyist and should never give money to a flipper. If you do, IMO you're just as much a part of the problem as the flipper themselves. Any purchases you make just serves to further entrench the ugly elements of flippers into this hobby. All one needs to do is a little research. Look at some ads from some of the flippers on this forum. Look at the photos of the skinny frogs they have for sale. Do some investigation. Read this thread perhaps http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/thunderdome/68794-taron-langhover.html
You'll find *breeders* are the ones that are *passionate* about frogs, and *flippers* are just out to make a *buck*.
Breeders will ask questions of the buyers, make sure they are ready for a frog purchase. Make sure the proper housing has been set up, make sure dietary supplemention is in place. A flipper is just there to take your money and move on to the next sucker. 
Now....do you still see nothing wrong with flipping?


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Saurian enterprises and understory enterprises are very respected, they have all of their information on their websites about the frogs they sell and how to care for them, but they don't interview you before selling you one! Just throwing that out there. 

Of course it is wrong for someone in the retail business to buy their frogs wholesale and not follow proper QT procedures and not have the proper knowledge. I most definitely agree with you on that and completely see your point! I'm new to the hobby myself, I've been in it a year now, and I shouldn't have supported that guy but I have no intentions on breeding it, what if it was sold to someone else who, like you're saying, doesn't research anything they do and they ended up breeding it! Those people are everywhere and in every hobby no matter what you do!

But what about the small business pet stores? There are responsible passionate pet store owners out there still although they are few and far between. I happen to personally know a few of them although they are not in my area, they are wonderful people that follow proper QT procedures and do buy their frogs and other animals wholesale to resell for a profit and do properly educate their customers. Are you saying that's wrong too? 
In my area, Pensacola, there is only 1 pet store that is not a corporate business! Just 1! And they can't even sell reptiles and amphibians anymore bc the owner with the proper licenses recently died! At least we have one thing going for us, every corporate pet store I've ever been in does not sell dart frogs, at least down here in the south east, so that's good! In fact I have very rarely ever seen them in any pet stores! I just think its a bit extreme to shun the good, experienced small business pet store owner. One day, many years down the road of course, I hope to open my own store front, and breed the frogs that I sell. I also want to sell saltwater fish as I have been in that hobby for over 8 years now, and other reptiles. So a specialty store, not a full line. But I certainly hope none of the bearded dragon, ball python, and leopard gecko breeders don't consider me a "flipper" although your definition of flipper seems to be anyone working in retail that doesn't breed their own animals that they sell.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Whitneyd88 said:


> Saurian enterprises and understory enterprises are very respected, they have all of their information on their websites about the frogs they sell and how to care for them, but they don't interview you before selling you one! Just throwing that out there.
> 
> Of course it is wrong for someone in the retail business to buy their frogs wholesale and not follow proper QT procedures and not have the proper knowledge. I most definitely agree with you on that and completely see your point! I'm new to the hobby myself, I've been in it a year now, and I shouldn't have supported that guy but I have no intentions on breeding it, what if it was sold to someone else who, like you're saying, doesn't research anything they do and they ended up breeding it! Those people are everywhere and in every hobby no matter what you do!
> 
> ...


Whitney, I'm sorry we're going so far off topic on your ID thread. I apologize. If you'd rather discuss this in private I'm fine with that. But at the same time this is good info for all frog keepers and it should be shared to make all aware of the problem.
When I'm speaking of "flippers" I'm not speaking of pet stores. Much in the same way a grocery store doesn't grow the food that they sell. Pet stores usually purchase very small quantities of dart frogs to resell. In most cases you'll never find dart frogs in "corporate" pet stores. Why? They have their corporate formulas. They sell only the most popular things and order them in predetermined quantities to maximize profit. You'll never go into a PetSmart and see a dart frog. Those corporate stores are a completely different topic, with their "animals experts" that are 16 yr old kids who have passed a multiple choice test. It really is a shame that most of the "Mom and Pop" pet stores have been forced to close by the big corporate superstores. 
Flippers purchase much bigger quantities, and try and move them out as fast as possible. They don't QT frogs for 30 days before putting them up for sale. They don't do fecal tests, they don't treat afflicted frogs. In some cases they barely feed the frogs. Proof is in the pics...look at the skinny, emaciated frogs. They offer them for sale as soon as they have them or in many cases before they even have them. 
Both Saurian and UE have great info on the websites. If you were to call them or email them and ask them specific questions they would be happy to help you and give you specific answers. They certainly can tell you what species you're buying unlike the flipper you purchased from. Flippers can't hold a candle to UE or Saurian. The comparison is not even close. 
Very few pet stores or retailers breed all the animals they sell. It's near impossible to do. There is a huge difference between a pet store that buys 5-6 frogs and maintains them till they sell, no matter how long that may take. Versus a flipper that may buy 30 frogs at a time and hauls them to shows all over the country to sell them to anyone wish cash in their hand.

Whitney, please don't think I'm picking on you. I'm not. This is all about educating you and others who support flippers financially.


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> They don't QT frogs for 30 days before putting them up for sale. They don't do fecal tests, they don't treat afflicted frogs.


Breeders don't quarantine, run fecals, and treat before they sell their frogs either.

Just sayin.



Sean


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Sean I was just dealing with generalities here. I'm sure if we look hard enough we could find exceptions to every statement. 
But since you brought it up, where do you think you would find healthier frogs? From a flipper of hobbyist/breeder?
Who would actually be more likely to know what species they are selling?
A flipper or hobbyist/breeder?

This whole thread started because the flipper didn't even know what species or morph they were selling. Please explain to me how that benefits the buyer, or the hobby?


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Oh I definitely wasn't trying to compare SE & UE to flippers at all, they are wonderful, I was just saying they don't ask buyers any questions before agreeing to sell their frogs to you.
And I completely agree with you now Rusty, and I have no problem with this discussion being public. The way you put it before you explained it just seemed as if anyone who sells something they don't breed is a flipper. 
And the guy who was selling them at Repticon only had 3 frogs there. I feel I should tell you everything that happened. I forgot about Repticon this weekend until my coworker said she was going and I was stuck at work. She doesn't know anything about frogs, she likes geckos. So I told her to see if there were any frogs there. I wasnt really planning in buying any, ive never been to a Repticon before so i was curious. When she saw the 3 frogs there (literally the only ones at the show) she asked him how much they were and then he started asking her questions. He didn't even tell her a price on them bc she said her friend wanted to know and he was asking her if I knew how to care for them and had the proper set up but he wouldn't sell them to her. The guy was kind of arrogant too. So I went up there when I got off work and he had two Vitattus and then the one tinc who's name he said he couldn't remember but the breeder was from Maryland and he would give me the info in an email. So it wasn't as sketchy as it could have been I suppose. He seemed to know what he was talking about otherwise. So it wasn't like "oh yeah that, I don't know what it's called give me your money" lol!


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

The frogs I have purchased from Understory are the biggest, brightest, healthiest, and happiest of my collection. I find Understory to be an excellent source to buy dendrobatids from.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Whitneyd88 said:


> Saurian enterprises and understory enterprises are very respected, they have all of their information on their websites about the frogs they sell and how to care for them, but they don't interview you before selling you one! Just throwing that out there.





Whitneyd88 said:


> Oh I definitely wasn't trying to compare SE & UE to flippers at all, they are wonderful, I was just saying they don't ask buyers any questions before agreeing to sell their frogs to you.


I don't understand why you keep bringing this up. Saurian and Understory choose to provide care information on their website instead of asking if you have the experience or knowledge required to keep dart frogs. 
How does this have anything to do with the fact that your typical flipper does not provide this information, nor ask if you have any knowledge of how to keep them?
As a hobbyist/breeder myself, I make sure people know how to keep their new animals alive. Most people appreciate that. The alternative, selling to someone who will kill the animal before nightfall, doesn't help the breeder, the frog, or the customer. I fail to see why this is an attractive option.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Flippers purchase much bigger quantities, and try and move them out as fast as possible. They don't QT frogs for 30 days before putting them up for sale. They don't do fecal tests, they don't treat afflicted frogs. In some cases they barely feed the frogs. Proof is in the pics...look at the skinny, emaciated frogs. They offer them for sale as soon as they have them or in many cases before they even have them.


There are real problems with this position.. As I've noted before and I'll note again, there are a lot of people who purchase and turn over frogs at shows, swaps and meets and consistently sell a good healthy animal and for those that ask can tell them the information. I can think of a number of people who do/did breed fair numbers of frogs, but also purchase others frogs to bring to shows/swaps etc. They can tell you about the frogs including where they got them but they are also "flippers"... 

When speaking in generalities like you consistently do on this specific subject, you are tarring a lot of notable people with a bad rap.... I can also name at least one "flipper" not mentioned in this thread that not only takes the time to quarantine, treat and establish the frogs but has refused to ship frogs to me until they saw that the frogs were established and feeding. 

Yes, there are dealers, who do not take care of the frogs they aquire nor do they care what thier origins are..... There are also hobbyists/breeders who don't care where thier frogs come from or if they are in great shape as long as they can own the newest hottest rarest frog(s).... We have also seen cases where "hobbyists/breeders" sold or shipped frogs in an irresponsible manner.. we also see hobbyists giving misinformation or dogma to others.... 

When you post these rants, you may be making trouble for those people who are good and responsible breeders, who sell other people's frogs to for one reason or another.. Think about it... People who don't know any better read your rant and then find out that so and so was selling someone else's frogs.. Oh no, they are a flipper.. we shouldn't buy from them because they don't take care of thier frogs because they are flippers... 

Put down the koolaid.. 

Rant done. If you want to discuss this off forum, I'll be happy to chat with you over it, but I'm done with this thread. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

The frog in the photo does not appear to be in the best health, IMO.

Richard.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Ed, I have to speak in generalities...otherwise it's vendor feedback.


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Breeders will ask questions of the buyers, make sure they are ready for a frog purchase. Make sure the proper housing has been set up, make sure dietary supplemention is in place. A flipper is just there to take your money and move on to the next sucker.


I was simply stating that SE and UE are great breeders but they don't ask questions before selling them. That's all, nothing more.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Whitney, for you and everyone else I apologize once again for this becoming a quagmire of a thread. Not everyone that resells frogs is a flipper. Flipping is kind of a nebulous and every changing word. For example, someone, you or I or another hobbyist that would purchase a quantity of frogs 10 or 12, to raise for bit and get a couple of pairs out of the group and sell off the remaining frogs. Is that flipping? Most certainly it is not. 
A lot of the definition of a flipper can be described by the information they can provide on the frogs they sell. Whitney in your case the seller could not even provide a species name. If they can not provide basic information, such as species/morph, line, history of the frogs, in some instances import dates, then be cautious they may be a flipper. There is a difference between a flipper and a reseller. 

Another good example is someone who buys some newly imported frogs and then QT and treats them and then would resell the now parasite free frogs. They are doing you a service. Taking responsibility of treatment off your hands.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Ed, I have to speak in generalities...otherwise it's vendor feedback.


So, if I am reading between the lines correctly, you have a problem with one person(flipper) specifically, but are trying to turn it into a blanket statement that covers everyone who resells frogs?


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

The species is Dendrobates tinctorius, and the morph is Green Sipaliwini. I agree that it doesn't look healthy- someone needs to take a look at it.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Many well respected and reputable dealers and breeders (some of which were already mentioned in this thread) are also "flippers" that buy frogs wholesale from other breeders and then sell them retail. I know this because I've sold them frogs. Just basic wholesale vs. retail economics. I do agree that they should know what species/morph they're selling but just keep in mind that the whole pedigree of dart frogs is a relatively recent (and beneficial) trend. 

Oh and actually on topic...looks like a green sip to me as well.


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> The species is Dendrobates tinctorius, and the morph is Green Sipaliwini. I agree that it doesn't look healthy- someone needs to take a look at it.


Someone already said that.


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

How does he look ill? Here's another angle of him. He has a belly and eats well.


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## pdfDMD (May 9, 2009)

Politics aside, I think it's just a young frog and, based on the two photos provided, I see no glaring health problems. I've noticed that sometimes young tincs are a bit scrawny like a puppy when young but will fill out in adulthood. Make sure you're dusting the fruit flies with good, fresh supplements (< 6 months old, and I personally recommend Repashy products) and you're little guy is eating well and things should work out well for you. Cheers!


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

I agree with the above post, looks like a fairly normal juvenile tinc. I've seen lots of captive tincs that are obese.


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

Looks fine to me as well. The very first photo, in your original post, I saw no signs of health issues there either. Methinks certain individuals got into a negative mode and kept that demeanor through the duration of this entire discussion. Just shrug it off and enjoy your frog nonetheless.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Read this thread perhaps http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/thunderdome/68794-taron-langhover.html


Thats soooooooooooooooo weird, this thread is suddenly not available?


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

Lol, good its not just me. I thought I did something wrong.


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