# Polystyrene Rock Wall



## Nath514 (Jul 8, 2012)

I have seen so many posts about how Polystyrene may be unsafe for amphibians and so many posts with backgrounds made of it. I want to make a background but don't want to use GS like I did for my last one. I was going to use Polystyrene, covered in grout and then sealed with drylok. Should I go another route, whats the current stance on the subject as many of the threads I found are from many years ago.


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## morg (Jul 28, 2012)

I have a couple made with layered styrene. But, I made sure to purchase the sheet at Lowe's that said it is safe and no chemicals are leachable.

It will have a blue name plastic layer that you peel off before using.


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## Nath514 (Jul 8, 2012)

Hmm I bought some regular insulation sheets from Home Depot. I may have to go out and look for the type you used.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Polystyrene IS a known endocrine disruptor. Now, is there PROOF that it will definitely harm your frogs, or affect breeding, sex ratio's, lifespan, muscle formation, bone formation, bone density, etc.
No. There is no proof. There is no institution spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to find the long term effects of exposure to polystyrene. This would take years of study over many, multiple pairs of breeding frogs.
Straight up, this research will most likely never be done.
Therefor, it is up to each of us to decide what the dangers may be. Now polystyrene is a know endocrine disruptor. This can cause cancer, death, affect muscle and bone formation, influence sex ratios, change hormone levels, affect breeding, and block egg formation (birth control pills are CONTROLLED endocrine disruptors). There is really no way of knowing what it may be doing to your frogs that you cannot see. This would be a totally uncontrolled exposure. 
Now in dryer viv conditions, this may not be a problem. Our vivs, however, are very moist and humid. This makes conditions ripe for leaching chemicals.

What it all boils down to is this. Styrofoam/polystyrene MAY cause problems. It has been proven to have the potential to be a problem. There are safer choices available. Personally, I will always choose the safer choices. There is NO polystyrene in any of my builds and there will never be.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Is there a reason that you don't want to use the safe, high density foam used in computer component shipping? That is the material that some of our early rock wall builders cited as the proper material. Look up Melas on DendroBoard and check out his rock wall builds.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the concrete or grout is said to adhere to high density foam better than it does to styrofoam.


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## Nath514 (Jul 8, 2012)

What are some of the safer alternatives you use?



Pumilo said:


> Polystyrene IS a known endocrine disruptor. Now, is there PROOF that it will definitely harm your frogs, or affect breeding, sex ratio's, lifespan, muscle formation, bone formation, bone density, etc.
> No. There is no proof. There is no institution spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to find the long term effects of exposure to polystyrene. This would take years of study over many, multiple pairs of breeding frogs.
> Straight up, this research will most likely never be done.
> Therefor, it is up to each of us to decide what the dangers may be. Now polystyrene is a know endocrine disruptor. This can cause cancer, death, affect muscle and bone formation, influence sex ratios, change hormone levels, affect breeding, and block egg formation (birth control pills are CONTROLLED endocrine disruptors). There is really no way of knowing what it may be doing to your frogs that you cannot see. This would be a totally uncontrolled exposure.
> ...


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

When I use sheet PS, I get the kind with the plastic membranes on the outer surfaces, and just cover any exposed material with silicone, epoxy etc. The foam not being in contact with water should significantly reduce potential for any harm.


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## Nath514 (Jul 8, 2012)

I think I will be safe enough, the polystyrene will not be in contact with water, will be covered in several layers of grout which in turn will be covered in several layers of drylok. If anyone has another building material that can be used to make rock walls then I am all ears. I didn't see any sheets with a plastic membrane at my home depot but I will look again.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Myself not having the Patience nor the Artistic Ability I Use precast Rock walls and Rocks.
There are several board members who make them but the Company I use because for me they are easiest to get is Universal Habitats

You can see two in this picture


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Nath514 said:


> If anyone has another building material that can be used to make rock walls then I am all ears.


http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/?pfid=2078


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Nath514 said:


> What are some of the safer alternatives you use?


I'm a big fan of cork bark mosaic backgrounds, myself. But for rock wall construction, all of that information is in Melas threads on rock walls I mentioned earlier.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...281-30gallon-tall-w-artificial-rock-wall.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...-latest-rock-wall-tank-18x18x24-exoterra.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35697-rock-wall-3-now-modular.html
Polyethylene Foam, Roll, Tubes, Polyethylene Closed Cell Foam Sheets


melas said:


> Here you go!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nath514 (Jul 8, 2012)

I think I will take a trip to lowes and see if they have anything that will work. All I could find at home depot was styrofoam sheets. I would live to avoid paying for shipping on a sheet of foam if I can.


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## Eiffel70 (Aug 10, 2012)

I think an art supply store would probably have them.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Or the dumpster behind any good computer parts supply store.


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## Nath514 (Jul 8, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Or the dumpster behind any good computer parts supply store.


I do love a good dumpster dive!


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Polystyrene IS a known endocrine disruptor. Now, is there PROOF that it will definitely harm your frogs, or affect breeding, sex ratio's, lifespan, muscle formation, bone formation, bone density, etc.
> No. There is no proof. There is no institution spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to find the long term effects of exposure to polystyrene. This would take years of study over many, multiple pairs of breeding frogs.
> Straight up, this research will most likely never be done.
> Therefor, it is up to each of us to decide what the dangers may be. Now polystyrene is a know endocrine disruptor. This can cause cancer, death, affect muscle and bone formation, influence sex ratios, change hormone levels, affect breeding, and block egg formation (birth control pills are CONTROLLED endocrine disruptors). There is really no way of knowing what it may be doing to your frogs that you cannot see. This would be a totally uncontrolled exposure.
> ...


I always wondered about this because it seemed like people who were having success breeding difficult species were using natural vivs with no foam or backgrounds. I never thought there was a connection.


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## Nath514 (Jul 8, 2012)

Lowes was a no go

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Did you check the blue foam in the siding aisle? or is that bad stuff? I've seen builds with it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

JaredJ said:


> Did you check the blue foam in the siding aisle? or is that bad stuff? I've seen builds with it.


Styrofoam is styrofoam. The white, crumbly kind most of us think of as styrofoam is polystyrene. The heavier duty pink kind and the baby blue kind are all polystyrene.

You'll know the right stuff when you see it. It's not solid, like styrofoam is. Instead, it is more like a matrix of air bubbles. It is very heavy duty. You can twist it and it just springs back into place. It's deceivingly heavy duty. It's feather-like, like styrofoam, but you cannot tear it. It slices readily with a good sharp knife.


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## TheDragonfly (Jun 12, 2012)

What are your complaints against using great stuff? I just finished some rock work with gs and drylock.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

TheDragonfly said:


> What are your complaints against using great stuff? I just finished some rock work with gs and drylock.


If you mean me, I didn't voice any complaints against using great stuff. Great Stuff is NOT polystyrene and does not have the same risks associated with it.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Styrofoam is styrofoam. The white, crumbly kind most of us think of as styrofoam is polystyrene. The heavier duty pink kind and the baby blue kind are all polystyrene.
> 
> You'll know the right stuff when you see it. It's not solid, like styrofoam is. Instead, it is more like a matrix of air bubbles. It is very heavy duty. You can twist it and it just springs back into place. It's deceivingly heavy duty. It's feather-like, like styrofoam, but you cannot tear it. It slices readily with a good sharp knife.


Oh, it's cellular.. got it. And that stuff will hold grout?


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## Nath514 (Jul 8, 2012)

What about the green foam from arts stores that is extremely hard. You can often find it at stores like Micheal's. I was told a while ago that this was safe.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Floral foam is BAAAAAD stuff!


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## Nath514 (Jul 8, 2012)

JaredJ said:


> Floral foam is BAAAAAD stuff!


Guess I will stay away from that then!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Floral foam is full of formaldehyde. It is an irritant to eyes, skin, and respiratory tract. Prolonged exposure causes cancer. Here is an MSDS for it. http://www.fdionline.net/fdi/public/files/msds/SO-Oasis_Floral_Foam_2009.pdf


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## Scooter88 (Aug 17, 2012)

I'm so glad I read this thread before I spent any more time (or money) into making my first background. 

I have to admit that I'm a little bummed but I'd rather have healthy frogs. 

I did take a look at something called "flex seal" (a spray-on sealant) that might be useful for covering up the polystyrene parts. It sounded good at first but then I saw the small print "This product has not been tested for use in potable water systems"....oh well, guess I'll stop trying to fix my mistake and just do it right from the onset heh.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

If your idea is to seal in all the chemicals of polystyrene, you could try a layer of silicone ALL AROUND IT (or maybe even Titebond III or Gorilla Glue). I still think that the foam Doug mentioned earlier would be cheaper and safer, IMO.


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