# Diet question



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Apologies I think I posted this in the General discussion thread also, but what are everyone's thoughts on feeding a cricket-only diet to larger app like tincs, leucs etc.?


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I had to do it for significant periods and it was okay.
But FFs are surface oriented and of a stable, perfect size. 

They are also perpetual in having your own _independent supply._

Unless you have alot of room to breed crickets, as stages grow quickly out-of-size for the darts. 
In a small operation, you could get crash and be screwed.

There is more security in breeding your own flies.


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Assume unlimited supply. I'm more thinking from a nutritional / productivity perspective


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Also. In a cold snap all the pins in an order can arrive dead, or if they die within the day after being chilled. And its not infrequent that it happens. To shops as well.


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Again, assume unlimited supply 🤣


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Your stewarding of crickets disappearing in the terra detail and scavange, grow, will be an additional chore.

There is no advantage i can think of unless its an opinion piece, imo lol


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I dont think they are a bad food. They just have drawbacks.


----------



## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

They may also start to eat some of the plants and if some survive your darts and grow will live in your viv until they expire. I do hope you like chirping...


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Ok, so to anybody else, I'm asking from a nutritional point of view, and the effect it would have on various factors such as growth rate, fecundity, survival of tadpoles, "strength" of froglets, etc


eMCRay said:


> They may also start to eat some of the plants and if some survive your darts and grow will live in your viv until they expire. I do hope you like chirping...


Thanks for replying, but you're not answering my question. Any thoughts?


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I trust no one has the information you are looking for, since no one would do this long term, for the reasons already mentioned and others too.

Your question is being answered, but just not with the answer you want.


----------



## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Caparu said:


> Ok, so to anybody else, I'm asking from a nutritional point of view, and the effect it would have on various factors such as growth rate, fecundity, survival of tadpoles, "strength" of froglets, etc
> 
> 
> Thanks for replying, but you're not answering my question. Any thoughts?


Neither are a "staple" for darts in their wild habitat (that would be ants and a broad range of other jungle bugs).

I don't believe anyone has run a controlled experiment of the impact of FFs vs. crickets since no one I know of uses only crickets as a staple. Personally, I mix FFs with the occasional hand-fed (with tongs) worm.

What I can say is that the hobby broadly has had good success and thriving animals including all the issues you pointed out above. If your animals are having those issues, the issue is unlikely to lie in the fact that they are not eating crickets.

There is however a multi-decade history in the hobby / with breeders of frogs on a FF staple with above "in-situ" (wild) lifespans / juvenile survival and likely growth. Is that due to the FF staple vs. other factors? Likely not, but again there is no study of a wild frog eating only FFs.


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Basically all it shows me is people have no idea. Well, that and the actual question won't get answered. Which, after how many years of dartfrog breeding, seems shocking. If you don't know the answer, simply don't comment? But if nobody knows the answer, as I say, I find it very surprising.

Nobody has any quantitative idea of how feeding a single food source (in this case I chose crickets) cf. a varied diet affects fecundity? Nobody has an idea of how a varied diet affects egg survival, froglet survival, ultimate offspring size, etc.? 

Maybe I am just on the wrong website, and it's only been an hour or so, so time will tell....


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

eMCRay said:


> Neither are a "staple" for darts in their wild habitat (that would be ants and a broad range of other jungle bugs).
> 
> I don't believe anyone has run a controlled experiment of the impact of FFs vs. crickets since no one I know of uses only crickets as a staple. Personally, I mix FFs with the occasional hand-fed (with tongs) worm.
> 
> ...


Again, what you are saying is you don't know


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Well the leaders of the discipline, as well as any museums and zoological gardens connected to academia use FFs. So I guess that could be a No to the questions you posed.

No advantage, with more micromanagement.🙂


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

And this from someone who _had to use them and enjoys micromanaging._


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Just to put into context I was a herp Curator of a major zoo and have done over a decade of research in the tropics, mainly Amazonia. 









(PDF) The effect of diet on growth and metamorphosis of Triprion petasatus (Anura: Hylidae) tadpoles


PDF | Diet is an important factor that influences tadpole growth, development, and ultimately metamorphosis. Nevertheless, it has been poorly studied in... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net





Look at the above as an example. Granted, it's a study looking at tadpole diet, but you can see how various factors are affected.

The reason I posed the initial question is a colleague works in a commercial environment that breeds herps and inverts on a large scale. The main frog keeper insists on only feeding dendrobates crickets, of which they have an unlimited supply. The frogs are kept in what be classed as a more sterile/zoo back of house/large scale breeder type set-up that is not some human interpretation of their frogs environment (i.e. the typical heavily planted terrarium). My colleague wonders if fecundity would be improved by a more varied diet, as do I. It seemed a rather simple question, does feeding only crickets verses only FF's have any negative effects on health/breeding/fecundity etc.

I am guessing this simple question won't be answered here. But doesn't it seem an interesting question to you guys to even see how feeding say ONLY FF's vs. say FF's and hand fed worms affects your animals? Or FF's vs FF's/springtails/Phoenix worms/crickets/etc? There are THOUSANDS, literally tens of thousands of keepers out there with more than one terrarium set-up. So many opportunities for some basic science to even trial a larger scale study?

Anyway, no worries, thanks for people's time.


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I suggest any further replies in this thread be relegated to the extremely narrow (though shifting!) focus that the OP seems to find acceptable.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Because there most likely isnt a disparity, that measure out significantly between The Bodies (_Sans gut tract variables) _between the two arthropod subjects.

as far as i know (not much by your standards, i know) diptera has got it goin on as far as its nutritional profile for darts.


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> I suggest any further replies in this thread be relegated to the extremely narrow (though shifting!) focus that the OP seems to find acceptable.
> [/QUOTEN


It isn't narrow, and isn't shifting. You will note I have asked the same question multiple times. I have merely had to expand my question to put things into context or even remotely get an answer pertaining to my question. But hey, join the club in posting when you clearly have nothing to contribute!


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Caparu said:


> what are everyone's thoughts on feeding a cricket-only diet


That was the original question. Directed to everyone, asks broadly for 'thoughts' and simply about feeding exclusively crickets.

Don't like the responses? Don't read them.


----------



## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Caparu said:


> Again, what you are saying is you don't know


What I am saying is that there isn't a clear-cut scientific study that I am aware of - so the question remains unanswered from a purely scientific perspective.

From an empirical perspective it the hobby has not had observable issues stemming from feeding only FF compared to what one might expect in tadpole / froglet or frog rearing. I'd expect the same applies to crickets given neither crickets or FF part of their natural diet, although there are less observations.

Now, to your expanding questions - there are clear benefits to varying diets (in frogs and other animals), which I believe has been supported by a range of studies (mostly around farm animals - not aware of any specifically on darts). For those and other reasons, many of us try to provide some variance in diets with occasional treats (worms, crickets, aphids, bean beetles, etc.) within the realm of possibility / reasonableness. So if you / your friend are trying to provide your frogs with the best-possible care, then that would be an approach you can take.


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> That was the original question. Directed to everyone, asks broadly for 'thoughts' and simply about feeding exclusively crickets.
> 
> Don't like the responses? Don't read them.


Firstly I've kept herps for almost 40 years and have never had a single issue getting crickets. But fair enough, if someone sees that as an issue, I said assume unlimited supply. TWICE. Basically, discount supply issues. It's 2021, not 1980.

Secondly, if crickets are going to eat plants it doesn't matter if you are feeding half crickets, half FF's, survivors will still eat the plants. They will also chirp. So the point is null and void.

Thirdly, they will also disappear in your terrarium whether fed exclusively or not, so the point is null and void.

But I return to my conclusion, you don't have the remotest idea if feeding crickets exclusively has an effect on your frog health. Imagine if you will, someone finds out that feeding crickets actually doubles clutch size. Or increases survival. Etc. Do you not even have the remotest inkling to know about these things??


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

As a herp curator of a major zoo, you should be aware that such studies have not yet been done, i would think.


----------



## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Caparu said:


> Firstly I've kept herps for almost 40 years and have never had a single issue getting crickets. But fair enough, if someone sees that as an issue, I said assume unlimited supply. TWICE. Basically, discount supply issues. It's 2021, not 1980.
> 
> Secondly, if crickets are going to eat plants it doesn't matter if you are feeding half crickets, half FF's, survivors will still eat the plants. They will also chirp. So the point is null and void.
> 
> ...


You seem to be looking for a very specific answer, which is difficult to provide with the initial, vague prompt. The extra detail was helpful.

How about we make this productive since we have an excellent cricket-only data point from your friend. What are their clutch sizes / survival rates / other outcomes? We can then benchmark whether that is within "normal" ranges.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

It wouldnt incite double clutches, etc.

There isnt enough difference in their bodies.


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

eMCRay said:


> What I am saying is that there isn't a clear-cut scientific study that I am aware of - so the question remains unanswered from a purely scientific perspective.
> 
> From an empirical perspective it the hobby has not had observable issues stemming from feeding only FF compared to what one might expect in tadpole / froglet or frog rearing. I'd expect the same applies to crickets given neither crickets or FF part of their natural diet, although there are less observations.
> 
> Now, to your expanding questions - there are clear benefits to varying diets (in frogs and other animals), which I believe has been supported by a range of studies (mostly around farm animals - not aware of any specifically on darts). For those and other reasons, many of us try to provide some variance in diets with occasional treats (worms, crickets, aphids, bean beetles, etc.) within the realm of possibility / reasonableness. So if you / your friend are trying to provide your frogs with the best-possible care, then that would be an approach you can take.


Thanks for trying to answer the question but you are stating the obvious. 

Stating the hobby has not had any "observable issues" is like the snake community stubbornly clinging onto the fallacy that their animals don't require UVB because Mr. Ballpythonbreederman hatches thousands of snakes every year. They haven't thought about fecundity and the long-term health of their animals.


ANYWAY, let's leave it here.... feel free to slag me off, because I literally don't give a


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Kmc said:


> As a herp curator of a major zoo, you should be aware that such studies have not yet been done, i would think.


I thought I would ask here because I figured there'd be some knowledge. No dramas. Thanks for your, erm, help


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Kmc said:


> It wouldnt incite double clutches, etc.
> 
> There isnt enough difference in their bodies.


I actually started another thread about carotenoids....feel free to chip in


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I trust no one has the information you are looking for, since no one would do this long term, for the reasons already mentioned and others too.
> 
> Your question is being answered, but just not with the answer you want.


I actually started another thread about carotenoids....feel free to chip in


----------



## Caparu (Mar 18, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> I suggest any further replies in this thread be relegated to the extremely narrow (though shifting!) focus that the OP seems to find acceptable.


I actually started another thread about carotenoids....feel free to chip in


----------



## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Caparu said:


> Thanks for trying to answer the question but you are stating the obvious.
> 
> Stating the hobby has not had any "observable issues" is like the snake community stubbornly clinging onto the fallacy that their animals don't require UVB because Mr. Ballpythonbreederman hatches thousands of snakes every year. They haven't thought about fecundity and the long-term health of their animals.
> 
> ...





Caparu said:


> Imagine if you will, someone finds out that feeding crickets actually doubles clutch size. Or increases survival. Etc. Do you not even have the remotest inkling to know about these things??



In my other response I suggested we see if there are observable issues since it seems we do have data points. Many folks here exclusively / almost exclusively use FFs. Your friend exclusively uses crickets. Can you tell us anything about your friends clutch sizes, survival, etc? Then we might be able to determine if there is something warranting further investigation.

Re: your snake example, you'll find bad husbandry advice for lots of hobbies - including this one. That's not to say that there has been progress - and we're certainly open to figuring out if there are ways to benefit our animals.

Since we like data points: personally I keep some geckos that many would say do not require UVB to survive, but I want my animals to thrive, so I provide it anyway - mostly because they are diurnal and would have it in their natural habitat. Same with my darts - I take extra steps to provide occasional variation where possible.


----------



## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Caparu said:


> But I return to my conclusion, you don't have the remotest idea if feeding crickets exclusively has an effect on your frog health. Imagine if you will, someone finds out that feeding crickets actually doubles clutch size. Or increases survival. Etc. Do you not even have the remotest inkling to know about these things??


There is no evidence to suggest any food source can double the clutch size of Dendrobatidae. Each species is genetically predisposed to typical/average clutch sizes, obviously with some observable min-max ranges. If we know clutch sizes in captivity already replicate those in wild populations, how could you possibly double the clutch size, simply by feeding a different food source? What link could there possibly be between those?

Survival rate is also something that I don't think has still been properly documented in captivity, but it is well known that lifespan is likely increased vs wild populations. This likely has more to do with food availability and lack of predation, rather than a specific diet.

As for nutritional value, if you are very curious, just do some searches on the two food sources (crickets and FF's). Both have readily available nutritional values that you could compare.

Here are some articles on nutritional values. The last one actually has a comparison of crickets to fruit flies. I would say, generally, there is not a huge difference in nutritional value (but crickets generally seem to have slightly more macro and trace minerals). This is offset by proper supplementation, I would imagine.

Nutritional Value of Fruit Fly Species

Complete nutrient content of four species of commercially available feeder insects fed enhanced diets during growth

FEEDING CAPTIVE INSECTIVOROUS ANIMALS: NUTRITIONAL ASPECTS OF INSECTS AS FOOD


There is the additional factor of what the feeder animals are being fed, as that will also determine a degree of their nutritional makeup when they are consumed. I would suggest that typical FF media is a much more stable, and nutritionally sound staple diet than most commercially available cricket foods. That does not mean that high quality diets could not be supplied by any means - just that availability to such is likely more complicated and expensive.

In addition, studies on how fast each of these food sources are consumed may also be of interest and importance. Certainly the longer they go without being eating, the less supplementation values they will have, as both insects are adept at removing powdered dust over the course of time. It may also be of note how much supplementation is ingested with each feeding method. I would suggest that ~10 melanogaster ingested would provide a higher dosage of supplementation than a 2 or 3 pinhead crickets, but that is only an assumption.


----------

