# First breeding - Help, please!



## Thekla (Aug 2, 2019)

Hi!

So, I'm quite new to dart frogs. I got my first two frogs (D. tinctorius Brazil) in April this year. They grew surprisingly well considering they were (and still are) my first frogs and I got them as froglets. 

They're still in their first viv which is an Exo Terra Habisphere (18x12x12"), but a couple of months ago I came to the conclusion that this wouldn't do any longer as they grew a lot in these past months. So, I started to build a new viv (32x16x18") which is finished by now, but still cycling (3 weeks in). 

The thing is I thought I had more time, but apparently they just started breeding. I didn't even know I actually had bought a pair, I suspected it though as the differences (different size of toepads, the slightly smaller build of the male, etc.) became more obvious with every day. 

They always got on very well except for one morning, two days ago, when they suddenly started chasing each other rather violently. That was kinda scary, and from all I read it looked like aggressive behaviour at first. But when I came back home from work they sat together peacefully as if nothing had happened. Later in the evening they even got a room together, meaning they both went into the coconut hut, in turns but also together. 

This morning I witnessed the male depositing water through the top hole into the hut. After that, I contacted the breeder to ask how old they actually were (I didn't ask specifically, when I bought them, because, well, I'm a newbie and I didn't know any better ). He told me they went oow Nov/Dez last year, so, they might be very well young adults by now. 

Now, I'm unsure what to do. I suspect a clutch of eggs inside the coconut hut which doesn't have a petri dish underneath yet. Also, because of that very inconvenient enclosure, I can't really access the hut and get the eggs out. 

The new viv (in which I had planned for multiple breeding sites) isn't quite ready yet. 

Do I leave the eggs with their parents and hope they'll bring the tads out when I put some water pools (e.g. small petri dishes) in there? What about eggs that might go bad? Could they be harmful in any way? I'd appreciate any advice on how to proceed from here. 

Thanks a lot in advance!


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## highcountryherps719 (Apr 27, 2011)

Dart frogs are amazing parents and instinctively know how to raise their young and appropriate sites to deposit eggs. Add some spots for the male to deposit tadpoles in shallow water (in a spot where you can reach them). I'd try the Petri dishes or even film canisters placed slightly tilted on the bottom. I've even had froglets pop up in tanks that I never knew were there to begin with. Best of luck and keep us updated!


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

I haven't seen bad eggs wipe out the healthy eggs, though I imagine if the right type of bacteria or fungus attacked them, it could happen. 

From what I've researched and seen myself, it's a total gamble when leaving eggs in the tank for the parents to handle. If you really care about seeing development from egg -> tadpole -> frog, then I would pull the eggs. Otherwise, don't plan on seeing them survive. If they do, it's quite a delight!

I have a hypothesis that our tendency (in this hobby as a whole) to remove eggs and grow them ourselves eliminates natural selection for good parenting in dart frogs. My data set is much too small to be worth anything, so it'll remain a hypothesis for the foreseeable future.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

macg said:


> I have a hypothesis that our tendency (in this hobby as a whole) to remove eggs and grow them ourselves eliminates natural selection for good parenting in dart frogs. My data set is much too small to be worth anything, so it'll remain a hypothesis for the foreseeable future.


Interesting thought. It certainly is true in some animals; domestic chickens have had 'broodiness' (another term for sitting on a nest of eggs) bred out of most lines of most breeds. 

Some frog species don't have much in the way of parenting skills to begin with, beyond choosing tad deposition sites. This skill is probably limited in captivity more by viv design than anything, I would guess.

I wonder if there's any evidence of this loss of skills going on in facultative egg feeders in _Ranitomeya_. They might lose the ability to relocate tads. Also, I've read that individual _Ranitomeya_ tads have a preference for consuming eggs once they've begun feeding on them (so, they'll eat prepared foods readily unless they've received a nutritive egg, in which case they tend to reject prepared foods), and so with generations of artificial raising the offspring may even lose the taste for eggs.


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## Thekla (Aug 2, 2019)

Well, for the time being, I'll leave it to the parents to hopefully do whatever there's to be done. 

It's rather amazing and cute how they take turns in watering the eggs, and surprisingly they do it both from above through the top hole in the coconut. The male also goes inside and supposedly guards the eggs. 

From what I read it takes about 14-18 days for the tads to hatch, am I right?
By then I intend to offer two shallow petri dishes (about 2,25" in diameter) and maybe something that's similar to a film canister but slightly larger (2,5" tall and 1,5" in diameter). Do you think that'd be okay?

And what kind of water should I put in? I normally use tap water treated with Reptisafe for the little pool I have in there. Or would it be better to use some kind of tadpole tea already?

Oh, and I'm well aware of the fact that this and the following clutches might probably not hatch due to the inexperience of the young parents.  I just want to be prepared for the unlikely case they do it right the first time. 

I'll keep you updated. This is rather exciting even though nothing might come out of it.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Thekla said:


> Well, for the time being, I'll leave it to the parents to hopefully do whatever there's to be done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm a first timer as well. I put my tads into cups with tadpole tea in them. We'll see how they turn out.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

'chasing' is most likely not breeding behaviour.

I have never seen or heard of 'distance watering' of eggs and while remotely possible, it just doesn't seem plausible. They walk on the eggs in some cases too, and it possibly aids in the hatch rate, so that would be another case I would doubt the distance watering.

Check the cocohut. You won't 'put them off' like disturbing a bird nest. You may not have eggs / breeding pair.


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## hungrymonkeyx3 (Apr 20, 2014)

Seriously the parents will care for their own. You don't have to worry. Let nature take its course. You can depend on them.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

hungrymonkeyx3 said:


> Seriously the parents will care for their own. You don't have to worry. Let nature take its course. You can depend on them.


Well, tincs don't actually engage in any parental care as such. They care for the eggs, and deposit the tads, but there's more to it than that, and even those primitive behaviors (egg dropping, I'm thinking of) might not be possible in the confines of a _very_ small (12 x 12 footprint, if I'm reading the OP right) viv.


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## Thekla (Aug 2, 2019)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I'm a first timer as well. I put my tads into cups with tadpole tea in them. We'll see how they turn out.


*If* I get any tads out of the viv, I'll put them into tadpole tea, of course. I meant if I should put tadpole tea already in the shallow dishes in the vivs in which the tads hopefully will be deposited by the male.



Philsuma said:


> I have never seen or heard of 'distance watering' of eggs and while remotely possible, it just doesn't seem plausible. They walk on the eggs in some cases too, and it possibly aids in the hatch rate, so that would be another case I would doubt the distance watering.


Okay, but why would they drop water down the hole then?  I've never seen them do this before. 



Socratic Monologue said:


> a _very_ small (12 x 12 footprint, if I'm reading the OP right) viv.


It's actually 18"x12" of floorspace.  But as I said before, I know it's getting too small for them. The new viv is much bigger, but still cycling. For the time being, I have to deal with that inconvenient Habisphere. It's really difficult to access because of the small opening at the top.


But my questions still stand: 



Thekla said:


> From what I read it takes about 14-18 days for the tads to hatch, am I right?
> By then I intend to offer two shallow petri dishes (about 2,25" in diameter) and maybe something that's similar to a film canister but slightly larger (2,5" tall and 1,5" in diameter). Do you think that'd be okay?
> 
> And what kind of water should I put in? I normally use tap water treated with Reptisafe for the little pool I have in there. Or would it be better to use some kind of tadpole tea already?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Thekla said:


> *If*
> It's actually 18"x12" of floorspace.  But as I said before, I know it's getting too small for them. The new viv is much bigger, but still cycling.


Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't even aware of that particular product. It does look less than convenient to use.

I'm not sure about this whole 'cycling' thing. Other than the plants putting on some bulk (which can proceed nicely with frogs in there) and isos and springs establishing (ditto, really), I'm not aware of anything that has to happen _sans_ frogs. If it were me (note that I take Philsuma's implication seriously -- that there is aggression at play here), I'd move those frogs into their new digs now. 

Pulling eggs is as easy as pulling tads, if you have eggs.


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

This could certainly be aggression. I've never kept tincs before, so I'm less familiar with their possible behavior patterns. However, my auratus have demonstrated some really interesting breeding behavior. I have 1.2.0 together, and both females (never simultaneously) will incessantly follow the male around, sometimes getting partially on top of him, sometimes just dancing around him, etc. The day I see "the chase", it's pretty much guaranteed that pair will breed that day. 

Any other time they leave each other alone (other than some minor female aggression I noted when I first introduced them to their new tank). It's a very unexpected ritual.


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## Thekla (Aug 2, 2019)

Somehow, I doubt it was aggressive behaviour. I never saw that chasing thing before last Friday, and I never saw it afterwards either. It seems that since last Friday they became even closer... they sit together, they eat together - peacefully-, they even sleep together in the coconut hut, all without any signs of aggression whatsoever. Would they do that, if they're bothered by each other? 

As for the cycling of the new tank, wherever I read about setting up vivs (here, Josh's Frogs or Neherp, just to give some examples) it was always said to let them cycle for at least a month, and the longer the better. My first viv cycled for about 2 1/2 months, and I thought it acclimated well. I never had any problems apart from super-fast growing plants. 

My question now would be: What's the average cycle time you guys give your vivs before introducing the inhabitants? 

As for the breeding, I've no further hints yet whether there're are any eggs or not. I guess I'll just let nature takes its course for now.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Thekla said:


> My question now would be: What's the average cycle time you guys give your vivs before introducing the inhabitants?


If I don't already have frogs in holding, then I leave the viv set up until I get the frogs (I don't quarantine routinely, since I don't mix old with new frogs, and have no problem at all with tearing down a 'display' viv if needed). If I have the frogs already (I'll buy groups of thumbs, then hold them separately until I can sex them), then I have in the past set up a viv, had a cup of coffee, and then put the frogs in. So, about 15 minutes to 'cycle'. 

I know that there's this 'cycling' idea, and that people promulgate it; what I don't know is if there is anything behind it other than voodoo magic. I'm not opposed to voodoo magic, but I like to call things what they are. 

On the aggression: animals become more territorial as they mature; you said yours were froglets in April, so the timeline fits. And no, they don't fight every minute of every day. Sometimes they'll work out their issues, and sometimes (usually?) the subordinate one will die from the stress (which can look like 'no reason at all').


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

lift that coco hut. I'd like to know if they were watering eggs from the hole in the top. Seriously it would benefit the hobby. Check under the hut.

I dunno if you mentioned it, but ya wanna put something clean and smooth for them to lay on - they will select a clean leaf but I use petri dishes, ash trays (clean of course) and glass candle plates. Glass is the best for under the hut.

check dat hut.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

any updates on eggs or 'distance watering'?


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## Thekla (Aug 2, 2019)

Well, the only update I have is that I was mistaken. 

There weren't any eggs when I rehoused them, so, no clever frogs that water their off-spring from above. 

Anyway, I'm still hoping for some eggs in the future because my male has started calling about a month ago (so freakin' cute!).
And yes, I have several petri dishes for them hidden in the viv.


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## Lucano (Aug 21, 2017)

Post some pics!


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