# Please Help Save the Pumilio



## Guest (May 7, 2004)

This is Dr. Frye writing under my brother's identity. I am breaking the rules here! I think Joe will understand. I beg his forgiveness if not.

The shipment from Panama has been seized, and is sitting in Miami under the custody of Fish and Wildlife!

The importers and exporters (I am not one of these - I have no financial involvement) have the ability to give up custody of the Pumilio, and the Fish and Wildlife have the ability to release them into my custody.

Glen and his Partner may not be willing to do this due to them most likely losing their investment. I am asking if anyone would be willing to make donations however large or small to pay Glen his investment. If he recieves what he paid for the Pumilio, he very well might release them into my custody.

I know this is highly optimistic to assume anyone might be willing to invest money just to save these frog's lives, BUT I HAVE TO ASK! If we do not get these frogs away from fish and Wildlife, they will all die in their shipping containers in the next day or two.

Please let me know if you are interested. Please contact any animal rights organizations you are aware of. I have contacted 6 this morning and PITA is getting involved. Please call anyone you know that can help.

We need to try to save the life of these frogs!!!! They will most likely end up in the custody of Zoos. I will care for them as needed. Please help in any way you can. call congressmen/women. Call your local PITA agency. Call fish and wildlife. PLEASE HELP.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

May I respectfully suggest you contact NAIB and/or ABG?

Scott
Sanford, Maine


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

is it possible to get a recipt on my charitable donations to submit to the Federal Government for tax purposes?


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

*My Order*

So when am I going to get the pumilio I ordered from Glenn Novotny? Is he going to cancel my order? Is this some kind of joke or FRAUD?

Someone please explain what's going on?


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

i think that is a very reasonable request s-holden


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

OK, just to be certain I understand. Please, please, please correct me if I am wrong. Glen will accept donations to cover his investment, or else the frogs get left in a warehouse & die? Huh?

If Glen releases his hold on them, and Fish & Wildlife turns them over to Dr. Fry… Then what’s to stop Dr. Fry from eventually returning them to Glen? Or to those that have prepaid for the frogs? Am I being naive here?


:?:


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## Patrick Nabors (Feb 22, 2004)

The pumilio have been refused entry to the United States by an agency of our government, The US Fish and Wildlife Service. This is apparently due to some paper work type technicality, making it temporarily illegal to import any thing from Panama along with seven other countries. This is a US rule, and has to do with CITES. (Convention on Trade in Endangered Species, I believe) It has nothing to do with Glenn, or anyone else in the animal end of this deal. The way Fish and Wildlife has been acting the last year or so, it would not surprise me if this is a deliberate attempt to block this shipment. 
This ruling was released on Wednesday, so bad timing. The frogs, as best I can see it, will not be held anywhere, but returned to Panama. (On this I am not sure, but it is what is typically done in these cases.) This is unfortunate, as a percentage will doubless die due to the double shipping, but I doubt enough time will elapse to allow any intervention. I would be surprised if they are not in Panama by tomorrow morning. 
It will most likely be some time before the importation is attempted again, but thats just my guess. 
Patrick


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Or what's tom stop Dr. Frye form keeping thme and getting "free" frogs?


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

> "Or what's tom stop Dr. Frye form keeping thme and getting "free" frogs?"


My guess? Respect in a very small community. I don’t think that would be the risk. I would trust the government a lot less that any individual in this mess.


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

I do not _understand_, but not because you spammed my board under your brother's handle. Glenn's customers and the rest of the community should not be Glenn's insurance policy. What is this, frog hostage? Glenn and his partner need to grow a set, take the hit, and not ask the customers who have already paid $125-$225 per frog to cover his losses. I think this is absolutely absurd, and _he_ will have to live with the knowledge that his neglect killed 160 of the worlds most beautiful and rare animals.


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## skinnybonedog (Feb 18, 2004)

*My gosh!*

Derek,

I can not believe you said this

"Or what's tom stop Dr. Frye form keeping thme and getting "free" frogs?"

What the hell is wrong with you people who are saying stupid things? What you are making me think, as someone who would sell frogs not be willing to let my animals go to certain people who are being so petty...should all watch the words flying from the keyboards because what you say can not be taken back.

Tammy


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

*Fraud Scam alert*

I want my money back!!! I don't care about the frogs they are going to die anyways! My HARD EARNED money is more important than 160 doomed destined frogs! I knew from the beginning this shipment is too good to be true. Now I feel like a victim of mail fraud and scam here. I better get my money back or all hell is going to break lose! I'm going to file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, Atorney General, Consumer affairs, Postal Inspector, Federal Trade Commision and the law enforcement about this. If I'm not going to get the pumilio I paid for then NOBODY is going to get them too, not even Doc Fried or John Glenn! Way to go, send them ALL back TO PANAMA!!!!!!!!


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

I think everyone needs to calm down. The best thing to do right now is to look out for the welfare of the frogs and ATTEMPT to get them into the hands of people who can take care of them. I think Tracey and Patrick are trying to help. I called F&W and only got voicemail  . 

The reality is that these guys will either be shipped back or sent to someplace like the National Aquarium in Baltimore or The Atlanta Botanical Gardens. They will probably not be released for sale. Anyone remember the yellow and black frogs at the Aquarium (sorry can't think of their names right now). Weren't they from a ceased shipment?

I highly doubt anyone (Glen, Dr. Frye, or anyone else involved in this effort) would try to 'take' anyone for money. I think someone posted that this community is too small for that to happen. And it is. Give everyone some breathing room. Lets get the frogs taken care of. Call F&W and register a complaint! But do it for the welfare of the frogs. Forget the money..............


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

davejoyce, you should calm down, apparently you already received your pumilio, they must have snuck out of the containers and found their way to your house. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1116

Lucky you to have received such smart frogs. 

Nice attitude, by the way.


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## AZDR_A (Mar 20, 2004)

I think a lot of people are jumping the gun here! Accusing Dr. Frye of trying to get them for himself, or any other hidden agendas on anyones part at this time is just wrong. It's very sad that a good majority of those frogs are probably going to die if they are shipped back to Panama. 

I am sure that Glen will be in touch with all of you that purchased some of these animals, give him a little time. 

Don't start making threats and a big stink when you don't know all the details and you have not had any confirmation from Glen. I have been in a very similar situation years ago with a Terriblis shipment and i did loose almost $500.00 and never got my money back from the importer!!! It SUCKS!!!! But you live and learn. 

But please do not make accusations that could cost people like Dr. Frye his reputation. It's a nice thought about getting a collection going and trying to save the frogs, but i agree with Patrick on this one, it's going to happen fast and there is not enough time.


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

You said "forget the money"??? I spent $1000 on these frogs. Yep that's right ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS with 3 zeros at the end, NOT $100!!! How am I going to forget the money??? I won't be able to sleep until I get my money back! If I don't get my money back, then I'm getting out of this hobby and flushing my entire dart frog collection down the toilet just like the $1000 I lost to John Glenn!


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## Patrick Nabors (Feb 22, 2004)

[I knew from the beginning this shipment is too good to be true. Now I feel like a victim of mail fraud and scam here. I better get my money back or all hell is going to break lose!] 
I assume you saw all the folks posting that you should only invest what you could afford to lose? Thats the way it goes with importations. However I think you are wrong to just assume that you wont get your money back, I am sure Glenn will refund the money. Although.....I thought he wasnt taking any money up front? 
And I think it is mighty callous to say that you dont care about the frogs, you shouldnt be keeping frogs with that attitude! 

Patrick[/quote]


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## AZDR_A (Mar 20, 2004)

davejoyce-

You are obviously not in this for the frogs. Just by saying "If I don't get my money back, then I'm getting out of this hobby and flushing my entire dart frog collection down the toilet just like the $1000 I lost to John Glenn!" tells me all i need to know about you! I have been in the Dart Frogs hobby for over 8 years! This is not the place for you. I don't know how many times people have to say it but in the end the important thing is the frogs. May I also suggest in the future, ask around and get more info before giving someone $1000.00 for frogs.[/quote]


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## tkavan01 (Mar 17, 2004)

I love greed, if glen is willing to let the frogs die in a warehouse with the fish and game folks then i'm sure that will stick in everyones mind for a long time, and make them think long and hard about ever buying anything from him, or being involved in any deal he brokers...
i know he is a business man and wants to not lose his money, but is it really the hobby's responsibilty to make up for his loss?


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

But davejoyce, i thought you already received your pumilio, what gives?


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

I was under the impression that no one was being charged for the frogs until they safely arrived anyways and there was a live arrival guarentee, so if Glen is an honest dealer, no one will be losing their money. I wanted the frogs but I know how dicey these kinda shipments can be so I decided to wait and see how this one went first, thank goodness for my instincts on this one.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Unfortunately this is not the first time, and likely not the last that this will happen. It appears that USFW has a major agenda against permitting "exotics" into this country. I am speculating here but some of it probably started with good intentions of keeping/regulating animals like lions and tigers out of peoples apartments as "pets" and has grown into an all or nothing situation. This is going to continue until someone figures out how to hold USFW accountable for their actions, which is by no means going to be easy. It seems obvious to me that the welfare of the animals and the intentions of CITES are not what is foremost in the minds of those in charge at USFW. I hope others will post their ideas on how to address these issues. I have family in state government and am in the process of trying to find someone in national government that has any pull in regards to contacting and dealing with USFW. I encourage everyone to look at the permit and import/export process as described on the USFW web site: http://permits.fws.gov

And a quick message to the administrators of this board - if davejoyce's posts are not a clear violation of the rules of this board, they should be. He is wasting peoples time with false posts.


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

*davejoyce*

Davejoyce,

Flush your dart frog collection down the toilet?

Yes, I think that is an extremely productive and mature way to deal with this situation. I think that your present dart frog collection is to be held culpable for this entire fiasco. Therefore, you should punish them. And why don't you include those runaway pumilio while you are at it? 

Comments like these will not win you any sympathy from this board.
Believe it or not, some people are actually in this field for the love of it.

It's a frustrating thing, I can only imagine. But do you know for a fact that you've lost the money? As was earlier started, perhaps you have not even been charged? Why don't you calm down and wait to see how things pan out, seeing as it is probably the only thing you can do at this point. Maybe we will even see a positive outcome, who knows?

Ken


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## Randy (Mar 18, 2004)

Just to reiterate, Glenn was NOT taking any money up-front, so to my knowledge, no hobbyists lost their money. Glenn, his partner, and the pumilio are the ones who took the hit here.


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

*please help save the pumilio*

Personally, I think Davejoyce is full of pumilio poop. I don't think he even ordered any pumilio. First he lied about already having his pumilio - caught in lie #1. Now he's making these outrageous statements about flushing his frogs because he "lost" his money. Caught in lie #2 - Glenn didn't actually take money from anyone. Anybody smell what he's standing in? Sounds like a scream for attention to me. I suggest quit responding to his posts - he reminds me of some students I teach that will do anything for attention. 

As for Dr. Frye's suggestion of making donations....... something smells bad here also. Donations are not going to release those pumilio. You think that USF&W gives a &$%@ about whether Glenn "releases" them to the gov't? They don't need his permission, otherwise they wouldn't have been seized in the first place. Those frogs will likely die in their containers, if they haven't already with the recent temps. :x 


Brian Corey


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

OK, I have facts. The shipment has been seized by F+W. My brother was in no way trying to take money, personaly, for anyone. Glenn is no longer involved in the shipment, he has relinquished his claim to them. My brother is on a plane as we spaek to try to take care of these frogs. A huge problem being the fact that the office, now in charge of these frogs, may quite possibly, be closed on weekends, this is what the message says when we call. We have contacted a number of Zoos, Aquira, ect. to try in advance to find homes that the F+W will release the frogs to. My brother's first and foremost mission is to SAVE THESE FROGS. We were not in any way , shape , or form, trying to take payment, bribe money , or anything of the such. Money is not even an issue now. We are just hoping to be able to get to them before Monday, as I think we all know, that would be too late. I appretiate the help and support offered, please PM me with any helpful thoughts. Thanks in advance,

Rich Frye


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

I have to add, the F+W does not just release seized animals to anyone. This may me a huge task to find enough qualified , true , experts to release all of these frogs to. There are MANY hundreds of "cheaper less desirable" frogs with this shipment as well. Please trust me when I say that my brother is there to try to save these frogs. Thanks again,

Rich


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

*shipment problems*

A few months ago I posted regarding a tinctorius shipment that we broght in and had to eventually send back to Suriname. All of our paperwork was properly filled out, the frogs were shipped properly, and the exporter was and still is a recognized breeder by the Suriname government. Upon recieving the shipment it was put on restricted release, this means we were able to take the animals and care for them but not sell any of them. A few days later F&W informs us the tincts must be returned to Suriname. Their reason was that CITES was suspect that Suriname was cheating on the quotas for the tincts. THat was it, just words, no paperwork from CITES, the exporter contacted CITES and they were not aware of any current problems with Surinames's quota system or any abuse there of.

This situation with the pumilio is typical. Just like Patrick alluded to, F&W are on a "witch hunt" to close down exotics, this includes all dart frogs.

THis should be a sobering example to all of us in the dart frog communtiy to be diligent with husbandry and make every effort to preserve and responsibly maintain the species we currently have in captivity. If you cannot care for your frogs get them to people who can. Soon there may be no frogs coming into the US. Then we all lose, and the cost is much more than just dollars.

THanks
ERIc


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

"skinnybonedog", got a problem, send me an e-mail, expect the same magnitude back though. I have no idea what your problem is? It's a scenrario which could happen. I posted this before I had talked to Marcus Breece who I called about some forgs and we talked about the pumilio for a while. He said he was about 30 minutes waay and they were kept in the shade under an area and said they'd probably live if they were hgealthy and returned by tonight. This issue is getting everyone uptight, and I sure don't appreciate the comment from "skinny whatever". It was all a confusion and I was asking a question. Chill man.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I have just read this thread and can not believe this. I passed on this shippment for these very reasons, but what can we all do to deal with this government agency. Someone please give me NAMES, NUMEBRS! I will can write or whatever it takes. Any agency that would cause the death of animals they aim to protect is OUT OF LINE! If people do not speak up this type of thing will go on. 

As for Dr. Frye flying down to try to save these frogs I think that is very very admirable, and I hope he can save some. Though with the current information it does not sound good. 

I do also question how this issues did not come up before shipping? Why was this government group not checked with first before the shipment was arranged? It sounds like they have been a issue in the past and that it should have been common knowledge to check with them first.

Please, Please keep us updated. I don't feel it nessessary to donate to Glen for his losses, but I would donate to keep the frogs alive! 

Lets go get this darn agency, I hate the fact that things like this happen with tons of government agencies. Created for a good purpose, and then so poorly managed they hurt the things they are out to protect!


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

I can't beleave so many folks bought into this. It was fishy to began with and almost any well know breeder said it didn't sound right but hoped it went well. I have read that they were smuggled on and on. This whole things sounds strange and if money was given up front it would be allot of cash folks. 125 per frog and 200 = 25k just for them not including one's that went for 200 and the other kinds of frogs. Is there any true documention saying these frogs came in that is public veiw? If they are I hope they live but its sad folks wish to risk money and living creatures lives like this.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Does anyone have the statement from USFW that explains exactly why the animals were confiscated?


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

Just let me assert something beforehand. I have ABSOLUTELY no stake in this and this is just my entirely unbiased opinion.
Firstly, you guys need to slow down. If your going to try and donate, go right ahead, there is the possibility that these frogs will get saved and go to all of you. However there is also the possibility that the donations come too late or they go to the zoo. Either way you need to step back. If the frogs die they die. You need to relax and give the guy some time. If he doesn’t pay you then you can get a lawyer, write the letters to him, charge him with fraud and compensate for your damages. But there is still a good chance that this guy is an honest business man and gives you your money back. So relax.
Secondly, davejoyce, I’m a little confused. At 4:40 yesterday you posted talking about the shipment you just got from Glenn Is there something I’m missing?

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1116

Just wondering.


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

if any one wants to come to dendroboard chat to futher the discussion im in there now was eating dinner when few folks pop'ed in.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You're missing a lot of stuff about Dave Joyce. Everyone is.

It's most likely a sudonym (sp?) for someone thinking it is fun to lie through their teeth and cause havoc.

He's posted on Kingsnake about having CB Blue Jeans for sale (http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=438071,438083). Then back here he posts to ask how loud Pumilio are. If he's selling Blue Jeans, you'd think he'd know?

Then there are the instances you site, of him having received what wasn't even in the country yet and him having paid for what hasn't been billed yet.

Bottom line - if the moderators won't remove him, we can at least ignore him.

s


furizzl said:


> ... Secondly, davejoyce, I’m a little confused. At 4:40 yesterday you posted talking about the shipment you just got from Glenn Is there something I’m missing?


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## Guest (May 7, 2004)

Just to touch on one final topic. There are NO donations being taken. This was something that we were bouncing off the wall to save these frogs. If anyone has any concerns at all about what we were trying to do,or are trying to do, please feel free to PM me with any question, thanks again,

Rich Frye


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## Guest (May 8, 2004)

For those of you who are unsure -the shipment of pumilio, auratus ,and rubyeyed tree frogs from Panama did hit US soil. The timing was quite unfortunate as licenced importers recieved the public notice of the ban from Panama and the 7 other countries in Africa at almost the same time.Wether the timing of the ban's release is a coincidence or not we will probably never know. It comes after the most recent CITES meeting in Tiawan less than 2 weeks ago where alot of displeasure was voiced concerning the particapating nations including Panama that were not enacting legislation supporting CITES rules. Unfortunately from my experience calling USFW as well as the excitement about the shipment of pumlio will do little to help save these frogs. You have to remember the inspectors responsible for the present fate of these frogs are law enforcement officers-thier sole duty is to enforce the law. The public notice did not come to importers from the USFW office in Miami but from the main office in Atlanta Ga.and was enforced at all ports of call in the US.The agent in charge, Inspector Rice has sole discresion as to the fate of the shipment as long as Glen has signed an abandonment form-this has happened and at this point it is up to the inspector to determine the best course of action. I can assure you the donation of monies to cover any expence does not enter the reason an importer or his agent would sign an abandonment form. The insentive is based on legal responsibility, if the importer or his agent do not release the shipment by abandonment he assumes more responsibility for the severity of any infraction in the permit process. I can not stress enough how important it is not to call the USFW office this will not help your cause. These guys are reasonable and will do the right thing if allowed. Dr. Frye is a respected Vet. and should have no problem in obtaining the release of the frogs if he can demonstrate they will go to either a legit research venue or educational facility-they ,by nature of this shipment can not be sold nor can any legal compensation be recieved from them except from thier offspring. I was on the phone with inspector Rice this morning and his normal attitiude of helpfulness was more than stretched thin most likely because of this situation and the numerous calls he had already fielded. For all concerned, especialy the frogs it will be best if we wait and see the final results of the USFW decision and offer any help with supplies and support possible.We can only hope the decsion will be in time for thier survival. This was a gamble on Glen's part but I think everyone will have to let the smoke clear before you pass judgement. There was some concern among the importers involved that this might be a problem shipment but most believed it would not be more than a conditional release until cofirmation of thier ID was issued. It seems that pumilio will still elude the dart frog community and we can expect that after this it may be years before Panama is again considered a possible source for thier legal import.


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## Guest (May 8, 2004)

I am just curious, after reading the following, I was wondering if they could be "given" away. Could they be given to the top breeders to work with, to study, do research and educate...... you know what I mean.



> Dr. Frye is a respected Vet. and should have no problem in obtaining the release of the frogs if he can demonstrate they will go to either a legit research venue or educational facility-they ,by nature of this shipment can not be sold nor can any legal compensation be recieved from them except from thier offspring.


They would be the most experienced people to work with them and then the breeders could recoup some of their expenses for taking care of the wc frogs by _selling their offspring _thus getting healthy animals into the hobby and to those that desire them.



> by nature of this shipment can not be sold *nor can any legal compensation be recieved from them except from thier offspring.*




Anyway, I was just wondering.
Rhonda


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## Guest (May 8, 2004)

As of right now , unless the exporter in Indonisia relinquishes control of the shipment, we fully believe that these frogs, including the Auratus and Tree Frogs, will be sent back to Panama shortly.

Rich Frye


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

OK, as to the question of the education aspect that is pretty out their for most herps. This can be seen in the sale of turtle under 4inch shell length. My internet has been down for most of the afternoon so this post is kind of late. I called my Congressman, Ray LaHood, office this afternoon. To my dismay you will find out most members of congress leave at around 4pm(Eastern Time) but his office was still their and my formal call was dictated and faxed to his office and they were not for sure if he would come back with the Rumsfeld thing. I personally know members who have worked on his Champaign and I am assured this was faxed. Were it went, I can only hope and pray he has a chance to see it. I was asked to bring a formal letter so this will be affirmed and faxed to his office Monday and have been make a few phone call to members of the Central Illinois Herpetological Society. We are the largest group out side of Chicago. My goal in this is to change the way these animals are bought in that they might have a better survive rate instead of the great chance of them die like these pumilios fate may bring them. I encourage all of you to email you local representative and senator about this matter. For every 1 letter they see it as 10 people with these same feelings, and in the wake of last years Monkey Pox it is an even greater up hill battle. I personally have run for public office, City Council at age 19 in my city and publicity is key. Enough people talk and write things do change. An idea given was to contact PETA, even though they do not like seeing them as pets as for they tend to get the word out quickly. Get in contact you’re your Herpetological or Zoological Club/ society many folks are trying to reform state laws and willing to help write letters and make phone calls. We can only hope this get to stay and have a chance to live. 

Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## Guest (May 8, 2004)

The frogs from this shipment are, dead or alive, now back in Panama. This outcome, from what we know, was not caused by any one individual , it would seem that the powers that be did not want this shipment to go through, period. It is a sad day, a shame, and it makes me appretiate the species that we have in the U.S. even more. I would love to hear exactly what the bottom line was for the "turn around" , we may never know. As of right now almost everyone has been speculating up to this point. There are way too many unanswered questions. I hope that the frogs were indead shipped back at around 8:00 PM last night, a quick turn around would be about the ONLY possative note to this nightmare. Anyone wishing to discuss this matter with me, feel free to PM me. Thanks,

Rich Frye


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

So they do not have to offer a reason or anything? Is there anything people can do to sotp this from happening again?



The ReturnOfJ105 said:


> The frogs from this shipment are, dead or alive, now back in Panama. This outcome, from what we know, was not caused by any one individual , it would seem that the powers that be did not want this shipment to go through, period. It is a sad day, a shame, and it makes me appretiate the species that we have in the U.S. even more. I would love to hear exactly what the bottom line was for the "turn around" , we may never know. As of right now almost everyone has been speculating up to this point. There are way too many unanswered questions. I hope that the frogs were indead shipped back at around 8:00 PM last night, a quick turn around would be about the ONLY possative note to this nightmare. Anyone wishing to discuss this matter with me, feel free to PM me. Thanks,
> 
> Rich Frye


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Basically if they get any information on the shipment that it may violate any treaty such as CITES or violation with any health concern they can. Since Monkey Pox in Prairie Dogs and Gambian Rats last year things have gotten tighter. Like I said in my previous post. Write your Congressmen! They truly think for every letter this is 10 people behind it and get with a local Herpetological Society. May of use are trying to change these absurd actions and rulings. Did you know that the sale of turtle under 4 inches in carapace length is a FDA decision? Permits for breeding exotic mammals, dogs, importing/exporting wildlife and to keep some exotic mammals is controlled by the USDA. Most endangered species (native to the USA) are regulated by the Department of Natural Resource. Just some food for thought. We have all these government agencies governing the pet trade industry and the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing. Most people do not realize that because of the incident last year with Phil’s Pocket Pets that Gambian Rats, Prairie Dogs, striped mice, and Dormice are no longer available as pets. Chicago wanted to ban all exotics. Wisconsin is currently thinking of banning exotic. Galesburg, IL does not allow exotics pets. What next? Is our hobby is at risk? *I believe it is!* Most legislators would rather ban all than have to deal with trying to say what dangerous and what can be kept as pets. 

Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## rbrightstone (Apr 14, 2004)

*save pumilio*

If you really want to change government interference in these things, there is only on way to do it. Remove both democrats, and repulicans from office. Vote libitarian, whose main goal is to simplify government, and get them out of our lives. We will never get anywhere because it would take everyone in the herp hobby to really grab their attention. This type of stuff will continue to get more out of hand as time goes on,unless we do something now. Good luck to everyone involved.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

WOW! What a mess, anyone with information on this actual shippment please post it here. Lets HAMMER these idiots with letters!

Here is a website to get your congressmen or womans names:
http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm
There is a link at the top where you can type in your address.

Does anyone who called PETA have an info from them? I have not been a fan of them in the past, but they are very powerful.

Another thing to help is VOTE! 




JJuchems said:


> Basically if they get any information on the shipment that it may violate any treaty such as CITES or violation with any health concern they can. Since Monkey Pox in Prairie Dogs and Gambian Rats last year things have gotten tighter. Like I said in my previous post. Write your Congressmen! They truly think for every letter this is 10 people behind it and get with a local Herpetological Society. May of use are trying to change these absurd actions and rulings. Did you know that the sale of turtle under 4 inches in carapace length is a FDA decision? Permits for breeding exotic mammals, dogs, importing/exporting wildlife and to keep some exotic mammals is controlled by the USDA. Most endangered species (native to the USA) are regulated by the Department of Natural Resource. Just some food for thought. We have all these government agencies governing the pet trade industry and the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing. Most people do not realize that because of the incident last year with Phil’s Pocket Pets that Gambian Rats, Prairie Dogs, striped mice, and Dormice are no longer available as pets. Chicago wanted to ban all exotics. Wisconsin is currently thinking of banning exotic. Galesburg, IL does not allow exotics pets. What next? Is our hobby is at risk? *I believe it is!* Most legislators would rather ban all than have to deal with trying to say what dangerous and what can be kept as pets.
> 
> Later and Happy Frogging,
> Jason Juchems


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Yes... they're "very powerful". And remember - they do not want *you* to keep frogs.

s


kyle1745 said:


> ... Does anyone who called PETA have an info from them? I have not been a fan of them in the past, but they are very powerful.


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

> Yes... they're "very powerful". And remember - they do not want you to keep frogs.
> 
> s


Or any other animal .... including pet dogs and cats. Read the mission statement and bylaws carefully.
Ed


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I know they are a bunch of freaks... 

Simple as this, whats the life span of a outdoor cat? 1-2 years Indoors they are 9-10! Hmm which has a better life! Go figure.

I just wondered if they got a response.



Scott said:


> Yes... they're "very powerful". And remember - they do not want *you* to keep frogs.
> 
> s
> 
> ...


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

The plus of PETA is their media responce and their lawyers ability to get people into the animals for care. The draw back is like Scott said, they do not want animals as pets. So they will want the animals released. In a case such as this were the animals are going to end up returned any way it can sometimes help. Its no garantee but still look at the lives of the frogs. Does anyone know of any other animals shipment turned away? I know many West African countries are now exporting baby ball pythons this time of year. 
I personally am not a big fan of PETA. 
This post has been edited.


Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I hope someone closer to the current issue posts some more info soon.

We also need to see if this could cause issues with other shipments. There are rumors of a more this year, but are they going to stop all of them?



JJuchems said:


> The plus of PETA is their media responce and their lawyers ability to get people into the animals for care. The draw back is like Scott said, they do not want animals as pets. So they will want the animals released. In a case such as this were the animals are going to end up returned any way it can sometimes help. Its no garantee but still look at the lives of the frogs. Does anyone know of any other animals shipment turned away? I know many West African countries are now exporting baby ball pythons this time of year.
> I personally am not a big fan of PETA.
> This post has been edited.
> 
> ...


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

*update*

First I would like to post this e-mail from Dr. Frye, as it as some good information on the subject. I think he may have read how fired up I was on the topic here and sent me the e-mail bellow:



> First and foremost, I would like to officially apologize for causing a commotion on Joe Hickson’s forum Dendroboard on Friday, May 7th. I wrote a message without Joe’s permission, and the message was hastily written and I am certain it caused a lot of confusion and some paranoia. I also made that post under my brother’s user name without his permission. I had the best intentions when I made this post, but I was wrong to due so, and I apologize. I had no right to involve the Dendroboard community in this fiasco.
> 
> I hope most of you will understand that I made this post with the best of intentions. I was only trying to save the lives of the pumilio. As soon as Fish and Wildlife seized the shipment, it became clear that these frogs were not (under any circumstances) going to become anyone’s private property.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (May 11, 2004)

I think we need to relies a few things from this shipment

1st The days of the $25 pumilio, $30 histroe, $40 retic's are long gone...we will probably will not see them for that price ever again...we had our chance to work with and breed this frogs years ago..but very very few people did.

2nd I think its safe to say that the importing of frogs is getting hared ..and I think we have one frog to blame for this mysteriosus.. Fish and game had been on a hunt for these this year..they stopped a shipment or 2 of them and now their doing this to the pumilio. This is what happens when we allow frogs we now are out right illegal in here..where paying the price now. I really truly think that fish and game is going to start coming down hard. 

We can not rely on the importing of frogs to bring us more and better types..we need to get out butts in gear and establish what we have already.
Brian Ferriera Jr
Plympton , Ma


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## Guest (May 11, 2004)

Nicely put there Brian! This should show folks that when things look too good to be true they are. The waiting list are long nasty, but really your going to probably get a healthy frog, who was bred for hobbist. Not snatched out the wild and put in a box to fly around the world. Folks getting bent out of shape cause they didn't get no frogs should rethink this hobby. These are my thoughts on this whole thing.


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## Guest (May 11, 2004)

*The Story COntinues*

Dr. Frye just got off the phone with Glen. Glen called the farmers to see how many Pumilio survived the flight back to Panama. Glen discovered that the frogs were never shipped. He told Dr. Frye that they are still in Miami. They are sitting untouched in their original shipping containers. No food. No treatment of any sort. Dr. Frye asked me to let everyone know. If you know any politicians of consequence, please let them know of the frogs' plight. Dr. Frye is too disgusted with the whole fiasco to do anything.


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## Guest (May 11, 2004)

That is really sad....
too bad for the frogs.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: The Story COntinues*

I also just got the an e-mail stating the same thing. This is just outragous! Sorry but this is uncalled for! 



inbloom said:


> Dr. Frye just got off the phone with Glen. Glen called the farmers to see how many Pumilio survived the flight back to Panama. Glen discovered that the frogs were never shipped. He told Dr. Frye that they are still in Miami. They are sitting untouched in their original shipping containers. No food. No treatment of any sort. Dr. Frye asked me to let everyone know. If you know any politicians of consequence, please let them know of the frogs' plight. Dr. Frye is too disgusted with the whole fiasco to do anything.


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## Guest (May 12, 2004)

How can someone go home and sleep knowing that 160+ lives are simply wasting away in a box. Who wins here? US, Panama, rainforest, anyone? I guess it keeps responsible people from attempting this again in the future, but what does that do?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I agree, I have e-mails out to a number of people, and plan to contact some more. Hard to call some places this late.

I am interested in trying to get the true story on this issue, and going after whomever caused the death of all of these frogs. Not sure if anyone is interested in helping, but we can at least try. 



hicksonj said:



> How can someone go home and sleep knowing that 160+ lives are simply wasting away in a box. Who wins here? US, Panama, rainforest, anyone? I guess it keeps responsible people from attempting this again in the future, but what does that do?


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## Guest (May 12, 2004)

Has anyone considered contacting the news media??? Papers, TV etc???

Amazing how many things get done when there is public pressure being put on them. Not to mention it is easy to sweep under the table when only the hobby and a few individuals are aware. Public outcry can often move mountains so maybe it could feed a few frogs!


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Would have to contact the FL media I would guess. But we need more facts first.



Wildtymes said:


> Has anyone considered contacting the news media??? Papers, TV etc???
> 
> Amazing how many things get done when there is public pressure being put on them. Not to mention it is easy to sweep under the table when only the hobby and a few individuals are aware. Public outcry can often move mountains so maybe it could feed a few frogs!


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Wasnt this thread asking for help to get them out of the custody of the fish and wildlife? We need to forget the money and remember that there are hundreds of animals that are gonna die if we dont help Dr. Frye, he asked for donations, so you should donate! If you are truely a dart frogger you would rather see them survive and loose some money, then save money and have so many animals die a pointless, unatural, death. Do what you can right now, like he said call PITA, i think they would get on the F&W, more then anyone.

Ryan


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ryan,
At this point it is too late if they have not done anything with them. I have e-mailed them and called them, but have yet to talk to anyone. 



Ryan said:


> Wasnt this thread asking for help to get them out of the custody of the fish and wildlife? We need to forget the money and remember that there are hundreds of animals that are gonna die if we dont help Dr. Frye, he asked for donations, so you should donate! If you are truely a dart frogger you would rather see them survive and loose some money, then save money and have so many animals die a pointless, unatural, death. Do what you can right now, like he said call PITA, i think they would get on the F&W, more then anyone.
> 
> Ryan


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## Guest (May 12, 2004)

I think it is too late to do much about these poor guys. I think we should not let these guys die in vain and petition to have new law/guide lines put in place so F&G stop treating ainmals so bad. Maybe even create group that deals with smuggled creatures. I know every one here is about frogs but I bet this kinda of thing has happen to many other creatures. Since it is not there job to keep things alive and help them some one should have that job. I mean the gov has groups of people that do just about every thing. Why not a group to support the lives of smuggled animals why there fate is decided. I mean if folks want WC frogs and glen sold out that means demand is high. So that means more of the same will probably be happening. I also still drinking coffee and probably not fully awake forgive grammer and typos.


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

Ryan, 

Just who do you think a donation should go to? and for what? money has nothing to do with getting those frogs back home or into someone's hands. Yes, people who ordered frogs should give it up... they're not getting frogs, but also, they didn't have to put any money up front. They've lost NOTHING but the frogs are losing their lives. Donations are an absurd idea, they were to start with, and still are. Wanna help? Start calling your congressmen and representatives. 



Ryan said:


> ...there are hundreds of animals that are gonna die if we dont help Dr. Frye, he asked for donations, so you should donate! If you are truely a dart frogger you would rather see them survive and loose some money, then save money and have so many animals die a pointless, unatural, death. Do what you can right now, like he said call PITA, i think they would get on the F&W, more then anyone.
> 
> Ryan


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## Guest (May 12, 2004)

not to point out the obvious, but havent the frogs already been returned? over and done with? finito? 

Just wondering....


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You've not been keeping up with things, eh? Go reread the 4th page (last coupla posts would do).

s


drunknmunky said:


> not to point out the obvious, but havent the frogs already been returned? over and done with? finito?
> 
> Just wondering....


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## Guest (May 12, 2004)

*PETA.....*



Ryan said:


> Do what you can right now, like he said call PITA, i think they would get on the F&W, more then anyone.
> 
> Ryan


Let's face it
PETA has their hooks into F&W. There is no question about it. This Panama shipment seizure is exactly what PETA wants. 
PETA is systematically trying to shut down the herp trade in North America, and this is where they are starting. A few frogs dying.... to PETA..... are collateral damage. I am sure they are willing to sacrifice some frogs that *in their minds *would have died anyway. 
PETA.... perhaps at the inception of this now ridiculous organization... their hearts were in the right place. But, like any extremist group, they have lost sight of thier actual goal, and are hell bent on making life difficult for everyone who is not a stanuch supporter of their cause. Remember people... PETA does not want ANY of us to have any pets whatsoever. There are a few PETA supporters in some of my lectures. And to put it lightly, they are a couple cans short of a six-pack. In their half-baked dreams..... it is *their* belief that dogs and cats should run freely in the streets just like in their acid-induced fairy tales. In the words of my good friend Remeus..... "Let's be realistic here" It is these sorts of people who support PETA. They are for the ethical treatment of animals... fine... but the millions of cats in North America....running loose in the streets.. which are a non-native species.. is ridiculous. Domestic cats are one of the top killers of native songbirds in North America already, but they fail to comprehend that. So.. this proves my point that there are many uneducated acid-head buffoons supporting PETAs warped ideals, and warping them further.
Now for F&W. Here is an organization that truly chaps my buttocks. It is without a doubt that PETA has their dirty little paws into mix. 
But... in my opinion... F&W are the American Gestapo of the new millenium. What exactly were they attemting to accomplish in the past situation? Well... it is clear now that the only thing that will come out of this abomination will be a ridiculous number of rotting pumilio carcasses. 
But let's get to the Suriname business. Apparently F&W will seize any Suriname shipments that land on American soil. This includes shipments that *are not* destined for US buyers that may be on a stop-over. Does this seem ridiculous to anyone else? This is clearly F&W over-stepping their boundaries. What business do they have in a shipment that is not staying in their country in the first place and may be headed to Europe or Canada, especially if the CITES paperwork is there. It is not their business..... period. They are absolutely over-stepping their boundaries... and I would love to see someone give a complaint and get an international lawyer involved. 
Things are getting worse. People want to take our priviledge of dart frog keeping away from us. We have to do something about it before it is too late. These are truly frightening days.


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## Guest (May 12, 2004)

*Pumilio shipment*

I got my money back from Glenn so I don't give a crap on what happens to the pumilio, I GOT A LIFE!


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## Guest (May 12, 2004)

The problem with the fish and wild life is that they have to much power...the states can go over their heads and stop them..but in most jurisdictions they have a "their they expert" attitude about them and stay away..a few story I have about my locale fish and game

Me- Hi I live to know what I have to do to get a permit for a sugar glider
USFW- We don't issue permits for sugar gliders under any circumstances
me-WHY?
USFW- Because I said so!

The next conversation was my boss calling about getting a degu (I was working in a pet store at the time)

My boss- Hi I like to now if petstore can carry degus.
USFW- Well I never heard of them so their illegal..

I have more story's..I actually gotten in some pretty bad verbal fights with them over the phone..their a interesting group of people
I wont even start on peta I post at the PETA-sucks boards so that should tell you what I think of them 
Brian


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## Guest (May 12, 2004)

*Re: Pumilio shipment*



davejoyce said:


> I got my money back from Glenn so I don't give a crap on what happens to the pumilio, I GOT A LIFE!


You obviously don't because you keep spaming the boards. 
Brian


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

Ok, i think we need to start the banish davejoyce thread.


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## Guest (May 12, 2004)

I 'm With Aaron on that one !


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## Guest (May 12, 2004)

Brian Ferriera Jr said:


> .....their a interesting group of people
> I wont even start on peta I post at the PETA-sucks boards so that should tell you what I think of them
> Brian



Actually I think we should support PETA :roll: 

*P*eople *E*ating *T*asty *A*nimals :lol: :wink:


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## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

Amen Aaron!! What is with this davejoyce guy?! :roll: Since he doesn't even seem to give a crap about frogs anyway, does anyone know if he really even owns any at all? If he does I feel sorry for his collection.

-Shelley


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

Brian Ferriera Jr said:


> The problem with the fish and wild life is that they have to much power...the states can go over their heads and stop them..but in most jurisdictions they have a "their they expert" attitude about them and stay away..


Our experience with F&W has been entirely different. 

KY now requires a travel permit everytime a shipment of 'wildlife' is brought into the state. KY F&W has bent over backwards at times in order to get my permit to me in time for the reptile show every month.

I found out about the new law and requirements on a Tuesday night before a show. I was on the phone with F&W on Wednesday. I asked questions in regards to what I had to do to comply and clarification of the new law. They answered my questions and faxed me a permit application. I sent the application and a check overnight to them. They recieved it about 10:00 Thursday. By 3:00 on Thursday I had my permit in my hand.

I find that they are extremely helpful and knowledgeable. In addition they are more than willing to look up an answer to a question if they don't know it.

KY in the past required a vet check as well as the permit. F&W along with the herp community worked together to get the law changed. Now a vet check is no longer required. (F&W can be a friend if you work with them.) 

I have a few stories about F&W from the raids that happened in the midwest last summer too. Some are good and some are bad. One was an animal that was misidentified and the vendor fined -- could be remedied by better education of the officials. Some individuals didn't have animals put away when F&W came in and weren't allowed to put them away right away. If you think of it from F&W's perspective though they had no idea what was under everyone's table and their agents security was as important as the work they were doing to protect endangered and threatened species. And then some of the individuals involved were guilty and deserved the charges filed against them.

Work with them and not against them. You'll get farther.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Nice post, as I have had time to think about the issue, I think there is a lot of information missing. It should be public information and I think we first need to find out for sure if the frogs were left to die. I happen to have a family member who is a retired vet from a major animal medical company and they are contacting a few friends (directors of zoos and etc) to see if they have heard anything about the shipment. Since there is a a chance they were sent to a zoo for care. 

Until we have some information there is not much we can do. The way I understand it the proper forms were filled out for this shipment. So there has to be more to it. For all we know they bundled pounds of drugs in the shippment. Granted I doubt it, but we just do not know.

If we can find out the frogs did die then it is a matter of contacting the Florida government, and other local groups to voice complaints. It will continue if people do not complain.




froglady said:


> Brian Ferriera Jr said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with the fish and wild life is that they have to much power...the states can go over their heads and stop them..but in most jurisdictions they have a "their they expert" attitude about them and stay away..
> ...


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

Like Sarah said Fish and Wildlife are not necessarily the bad guys all of the time. I was upset over what happened with this shipment, but atthe same time we do not know all of the facts so who are we to judge and lay blame? There was always a good chance that something like this could happen. I was not happy with the fact that the shipment was advertised and sold out before it was even shipped. Given past problems with importing dart frogs, maybe broadcasting this one all over the internet was not the best idea in the world. We do not know if the frogs died or even necessarily where they are. Yes the frogs were placed in a bad situation, but was releasing rare frogs into the hands of any person with $125 a good situation either?


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## Guest (May 13, 2004)

The frogs were sent back immediately, according to an Dr. Frye's earlier post - they were definitely sent back by 6pm the next day and he hoped that they were sent back by 8pm the same day that they came in (his first post was at 1pm). 

If the majority of these frogs were wild-caught, then F&W had an obligation not to let the shipment go through. The question is - what was the survivability rate and would that rate have been greater if suitable institutions could be found for all of the frogs in question - not only the pumilio, but the auratus as well? How long would it have taken to find qualified homes for all of the auratus, and then they still would have to be shipped to them, and who cares for them in the meantime? 

The U.S. is a key player in the illegal trade of wildlife and wildlife parts, from tiger bones and bear gall bladders to pancake tortoises and parrots. Some wild populations have been decimated by illegal collection for the pet trade, where 10 animals are caught for one to survive to the pet market and then the vast majority of those die within a short time in their new 'homes'. I have no doubt that many in F&W are incompetant bufoons, but F&W, International agreements such as CITES, and national and local laws are what we have to work with, so what do we do with that? 

Everyone's mad, but why? What *should* have been done? First we should figure out what happened, then what would have been ideal, and then we can decide who to contact to make sure it doesn't happen again. Perhaps if Glenn was told that the shipment wouldn't be allowed on US soil it never would have left Panama? Things could have been straightened out without harm to any animals?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

To repeat (2nd time now)... that was his initial information.

He then found out (and it *is* posted in this thread, please reread all of it) that they *did not go back immediately*.

No one knows what has happened to them, if they've *ever* even been given a second glance again.

s


JK said:


> The frogs were sent back immediately, according to an Dr. Frye's earlier post - they were definitely sent back by 6pm the next day and he hoped that they were sent back by 8pm the same day that they came in (his first post was at 1pm).


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## Guest (May 13, 2004)

Yes, you are right. 

That changes everything.


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## Guest (May 13, 2004)

This post is turning allot of people who ASSuME things about others. I said it once before and say it again. Where is the proof stating that there was indeed frogs in the shipment. Posting on here saying blah blah this doesen't prove any thing other then there might be some thing going on. So far you got a pet store selling things they don't and never had. You got a vet trying to save frogs he can't see or touch. You also got allot of angry people who didn't get there FARM raised frogs. It also looks as "IF" indeed the frogs did make it to FL and was taken by our GOV then it will be up to them to deal with and i doubt any frogger on here has pull to do any thing other wise. So why not try to stop this from happening again? no? we rather try to save frogs that died for nothing and keep pushing an issue that we truly don't know any thing about. I think trying to get rules put in place and maybe forming a group to deal with smuggled creatures and treat them and deal with them like they should. Who is with me? or would you like to bicker about wether there farm raised or if you can do some thing to stop the current frogs from dying or going back to there country>?


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## Guest (May 13, 2004)

*YAY!!!*

YAY!!!!!!!! 3 cheers to Beriss, I totally agree with Beriss's great post!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: YAY!!!*

Wonderful - so why do you spread more bogus info than *everyone ELSE put together*?

Idiot.

s


davejoyce said:


> YAY!!!!!!!! 3 cheers to Beriss, I totally agree with Beriss's great post!


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

if we get enough people to sign a petition, could davejoyce be banned?


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## Guest (May 13, 2004)

was that attack on me or dave? or both?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Certainly wasn't you John.

I don't necessarily agree with you 100% but at least you think it through and say something sensible.

As opposed to DJ.

s


Beriss said:


> was that attack on me or dave? or both?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Does anyone know for certain whether or not the frogs in the shipment were WC or indeed farm raised? Has anyone ever been to the farm or met the exporters where these animals came from? Is everyone simply making assumptions that there are no "farms" for raising frogs in Panama? Has USFW met the exporters or been to this farm? As for me, I don't know the answers to any of these. If anyone has some real proof either way, please chime in.


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## Guest (May 13, 2004)

*Answer*

We don't even know if such shipment even existed since there's no proof at all, just hearsay. To me I believe there wasn't a pumilio shipment of any kind to begin with. The seller, Glenn Novotny haven't even replied or bother to jump into our discussion despite of all the confusion and unanswered questions. Now that seems highly suspicious to me don't you think so too?



rmelancon said:


> Does anyone know for certain whether or not the frogs in the shipment were WC or indeed farm raised? Has anyone ever been to the farm or met the exporters where these animals came from? Is everyone simply making assumptions that there are no "farms" for raising frogs in Panama? Has USFW met the exporters or been to this farm? As for me, I don't know the answers to any of these. If anyone has some real proof either way, please chime in.


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## Guest (May 14, 2004)

:lol: See DJ agree'ed with me and i had to reread what i wrote and thought i might have mis said some thing, then you insulted DJ and thought you might included me in it. So i thought i said some thing bad to offend ya.


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