# RO water, Distilled, what do you use? What is the best?



## Chicago Frog Man (Mar 5, 2009)

I have read so much on water, I was wondering if anyone had any current or new insight on what is best for our frogs? I have been using Distilled water, but then I got an RO system installed a few weeks ago, and was going to start using it. Then I read on Quality Captives website that you should "never use Reverse Osmosis water because it is so pure it is constantly striving to equalize itself with it's environment and that it will actually take much needed minerals right out of the frog eventually killing the frog." (paraphrased the quote). What about mixing RO water with Distilled? Half and half mixture? What do you use? What do you believe is best? Thanks for everyone's input!


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I just buy distilled water from the store. If I had an RO system, I would just use it for drinking and cooking and buy the distilled water for the frogs. Sorry I can't truly advise you on the RO water situation---I always thought that since they are always being fed supplements that it wasn't that big a deal to use RO water---anyone else have thoughts on this?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

RO and distilled are the same - just get some RO right and add it to the water (about 1/8-1/10 of a teaspoon per gallon).


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> RO and distilled are the same - just get some RO right and add it to the water (about 1/8-1/10 of a teaspoon per gallon).


They're not exactly the same, just comparable. Check out this link for more info:
Distilled vs Deionized Water

R.O. systems don't effectively remove all the ions, they just bind them to other ions, but distilled water removes all ions. 
Either way, you're getting a good product, but distilled is perhaps a bit higher quality unless you're using a really fancy R.O. system. Here's an excerpt from the article:
_I'm not knowledgeable about the engineering aspects such as the cost of one
compared to the other. However, as the names imply deionized water is water
that has been passed through a column or membrane to remove ions present. If
it is of the type used in homes, it is not truly a de-ionizer, removing all
ions, but rather an ion exchange column that exchanges polyvalent ions such
as Mg++ and Ca++ for Na+ ions. A de-ionizing column will not remove nonionic
organic substances from the water.

In contrast, distilled water is actually boiled in a still and the
condensate collected and distributed. Distillation removes both ionic and
nonionic organic contaminants.

Either method will require periodic regeneration, in the case of a
deionizer, or cleaning in the case of a still. I think you will have to
weigh the cost of maintenance and the required capacity needed before making
your decision._
That's my take, anyway...


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

"Same" with regard to vivarium use. Sorry, should have clarified. In both cases you should add RO right in the correct amount before use.


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## Dean (Mar 1, 2008)

I use what they get in the wild clean rain water no problems so far and I just had 3 tads morph into healthy frogs I also have two imi's tads developing also in rain water.

Dean


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Zoos and other institutions are moving away from using rain or tap water. I would suggest reviewing the following article on rain water contamination... 

Pesticides in Rain in Four Agricultural Watersheds in the United States -- Vogel et al. 37 (3): 1101 -- Journal of Environmental Quality

there can be issues that may not be visible to the eye ranging from endocrine disruption to delayed metamorphosis.... 

Ed


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## Chicago Frog Man (Mar 5, 2009)

Ed, What kind of water do you use? Thanks for your input!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reconstituted RO water.... 

Ed


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## Dean (Mar 1, 2008)

I believe the rain water was collected in heavy agricultural areas I'm not saying I don't possibly have some of these chemicals but being surrounded by ocean I feel the quality is pretty good and I also don't start collecting until it has been raining for awhile.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dean said:


> I believe the rain water was collected in heavy agricultural areas I'm not saying I don't possibly have some of these chemicals but being surrounded by ocean I feel the quality is pretty good and I also don't start collecting until it has been raining for awhile.


On what basis are you assuming that your rainwater is only originating around you? 

Ed


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## Dean (Mar 1, 2008)

I'm just saying I have no problems using rainwater I not a meteorologist. I'm not saying it's the best water it's what I use.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Its better to say that you have had no visual issues when using rainwater, the fact that it contains endocrine disruptors which can have the greatest effect on gonadal development when exposed in minute levels is a real concern. 
see Environmental endocrine disruption: an effects assessment and analysis.

and for those that are getting SLS when using tap/rainwater should check out 

http://www.epa.gov/ncer/science/endocrine/pdf/wildlife/r827398_gardiner-030105-final.pdf

and for humor 

Nicholas Kristof | July 1, 2009 | ColbertNation.com

Ed


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Be careful in assuming that your rainwater is local evaporation. I've done research were I was correlating local wind vectors (within 150km) to water conditions(mainly sub-surface pressure) surrounding an inlet on coastal Georgia. The best results that I found is that 78% was local. It actually dropped as low as 34%. This means that at any given time 22% to 66% of conditions in the inlet were determined by factors outside of a 150km radius. While this will not have the same values for evaporation and rainfall, it does show that conditions far outside your area can affect you. I'm sure living on Long Island you have been through Newark. Just imagine if anything from that city could possibly be misted throughout your vivarium!

Ed, what kind of work do you do? You seem quite educated in the science field.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm the Lead Keeper/Primary Amphibian Keeper for the Philadelphia Zoo but my background is biochem andI used to work as a chemist in Pharmaceuticals Manufacturing and before that in R&D with Zeolite catalysts before I got the job at the Zoo (as well as working in the pet industry before that). 

Ed


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Would reconstituted RO (using a conditioner) eventually clog misting lines?

If so, would just using RO or DI'd RO be ok for misting?

-Nish


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

RO is fine for misting.

Honestly we've used RO for frogs for awhile now... I know quite a few people who ONLY use RO water (even in tank bottoms!)...

I would NOT use it in tad rearing - but otherwise honestly from experience my frogs are developing well... all very fat and happy... all on RO water. 

RO right helps tho.


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## Chicago Frog Man (Mar 5, 2009)

MeiKvr6,

What kind of water would you use for tad rearing if not RO? Thanks!


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Chicago Frog Man said:


> MeiKvr6,
> 
> What kind of water would you use for tad rearing if not RO? Thanks!


dechlorinated tap + tadpole tea + a couple drops of meth blue


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

MeiKVR6 said:


> dechlorinated tap + tadpole tea + a couple drops of meth blue


What about the microbial cysts, chloramine and chemicals present in tap water besides chlorine? Tads have shown to develop more slowly in tap water that is heavily contaminated, and I think a water test done by a lab would be in order first. I would not use tap water if I had other options.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

earthfrog said:


> What about the microbial cysts, chloramine and chemicals present in tap water besides chlorine? Tads have shown to develop more slowly in tap water that is heavily contaminated, and I think a water test done by a lab would be in order first. I would not use tap water if I had other options.


You honestly think the "average user" on this forum is going to get their tap water lab tested? I 100% agree that would be best - but I doubt that'll really happen too often on here. I personally know our water is chlorinated - no chloramine.

By dechlorinated I mean filtered/dechlorinated... I prob used the wrong word. We use every filter on the R/O system minus the last carbon filter and the RO membrane itself. So what I prob should have said is carbon filtered, 5 micron filtered, dechlorinated water. 

Will the average user even go that far? Prob not. Should they? Sure!

Aged Brita water will prob be the most common.  It's better than nothing.


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Ed said:


> and for humor
> 
> Nicholas Kristof | July 1, 2009 | ColbertNation.com
> 
> Ed


Thats funny, but not.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

MeiKVR6 said:


> You honestly think the "average user" on this forum is going to get their tap water lab tested? I 100% agree that would be best - but I doubt that'll really happen too often on here. I personally know our water is chlorinated - no chloramine.
> 
> By dechlorinated I mean filtered/dechlorinated... I prob used the wrong word. We use every filter on the R/O system minus the last carbon filter and the RO membrane itself. So what I prob should have said is carbon filtered, 5 micron filtered, dechlorinated water.
> 
> ...


I think everyone that uses tap water should use a filter, and I've found that faucet-mounted filters take out more contaminants than pitcher filters with the possible exception of lead. The PUR faucet filter is pretty effective but comparable to the Britia faucet filter. After doing this it is better than using rain water or unfiltered water, but still is not as good as RO-reconstituted or distilled water. It's still not totally sterile since some trace contaminants are still there. 
(And as far as the 'average' user goes, I think that since there are so few frog keepers compared to users of tap water that we should be judicious in who we sell to, in that we try to ensure they will be responsible froggers. I try to do this by checking their past posts here on DB. I'm not going to know if they will get their water lab-tested, but I think it should be as necessary as quarantining in terms of good frog husbandry.)
Running the water through several filters is a great idea, certainly more than I have the means to do right now. I am just buying distilled water since that's the best I can do at this time.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

nish07 said:


> Would reconstituted RO (using a conditioner) eventually clog misting lines?
> 
> If so, would just using RO or DI'd RO be ok for misting?
> 
> -Nish


Yes,
Using straight RO/DI for misting is fine. 

Ed


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

I plan on sticking to distilled water, but was curious about some tap water issues. Is'nt chloramine is a bond between chlorine and ammonia? Would using a dechlorinator release more ammonia into the water by breaking the bond? I know high levels of ammonia are deadly to fish, but how do pdf's react to it?


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

I use straight RO. The issue with using anything with minerals in it is that it wil build up like you wont believe, especially if you're a heavy mister. Then you have to go in there with a striaght edge razor and scrape all of it off the glass while keeping an eye on the frogs, not fun. While straight Ro is an issue for truly aquatic animals like fish and newts, IMHO frogs are exposed to so little of it it doesn't make a difference, and it is almost exactly like the rain that they are exposed to in the wild.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

bobberly1 said:


> I use straight RO. The issue with using anything with minerals in it is that it wil build up like you wont believe, especially if you're a heavy mister. Then you have to go in there with a striaght edge razor and scrape all of it off the glass while keeping an eye on the frogs, not fun. While straight Ro is an issue for truly aquatic animals like fish and newts, IMHO frogs are exposed to so little of it it doesn't make a difference, and it is almost exactly like the rain that they are exposed to in the wild.


Not if your glass is already covered in moss/algae. . Just had to throw that in... feel free to resume.


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> Not if your glass is already covered in moss/algae. . Just had to throw that in... feel free to resume.


haha, all too true, i find it near impossible to keep mine clean. The real issue was back when i used tap water as well as that flaming hot 30W spiral flourescant. To raise the humidity, I would spray the top of the viv, which would quickly evaporate and leave the residue, Since the viv dried out failry quickly, I had to do that a lot, and it built up like crazy.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

bobberly1 said:


> haha, all too true, i find it near impossible to keep mine clean. The real issue was back when i used tap water as well as that flaming hot 30W spiral flourescant. To raise the humidity, I would spray the top of the viv, which would quickly evaporate and leave the residue, Since the viv dried out failry quickly, I had to do that a lot, and it built up like crazy.


Just add some ficus and you will never see into your tanks again. that's the way i roll...along with spring water for misting and DI (w/RO right) for tads, breeding holes.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

flapjax3000 said:


> I plan on sticking to distilled water, but was curious about some tap water issues. Is'nt chloramine is a bond between chlorine and ammonia? Would using a dechlorinator release more ammonia into the water by breaking the bond? I know high levels of ammonia are deadly to fish, but how do pdf's react to it?


As far as I know, dechlorinators do not effectively remove the chloramine compound, just chlorine. Also, aging water only allows the chlorine to evaporate, not the chloramine. Some water utilities use chloramine, some use only chlorine and some use ozonation instead to purify the water. Your water utility will give you a free report on what's in the water, and how they purify it if you ask them---you may be surprised to see the many, many contaminants present in small amounts such as arsenic, lead, turbidity, etc. 
(If you're in some cities such as San Antonio, TX, you're getting the best water straight out of the tap since they purify by ozonation.) 
Yes, chloramine is chlorine and ammonia put together, and it's not good for the frogs. I don't know just how toxic---maybe someone else could chime in in regards to that. Ammonia would cause chemical burns at high enough levels if it was present singularly in the water.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Found this bit on just one of the many pollutants found in drinking and/or spring water. This pesticide, atrazine, is is very common in drinking water:



> Ecologically Relevant Atrazine Doses Disrupt Sex Differentiation: African Clawed Frog Xenopus Laevis. Atrazine, a widely-used herbicide, permanently demasculanizes and feminizes frogs at levels much lower than typically found in the environment, even though it does not affect growth rates, metamorphosis, and mortality, said Tyrone Hayes, University of California at Berkeley. Male African clawed frogs exposed to 1 part per billion and higher doses of atrazine during larval life had a permanently smaller larynx, an important muscle used to call for and attract mates, than the controls. The 1 ppb exposure also produced a plethora of intersex animals with random combinations of testes and ovaries. The demasculanization (smaller larynx, loosing breeding glands) and the feminization (gaining an ovary) is probably the result of atrazine increasing levels of the enzyme aromatase, which converts testosterone (male hormone) to estrogens. The abnormalities occur as estrogen concentrations rise and testosterone concentrations fall during critical times in the developing frogs. In the Midwest, frog eggs could easily be exposed to the low-level atrazine concentrations that were found to permanently alter the animals. Eggs are laid and start developing in spring at the same time that atrazine is applied to - and runs off with spring time rains from - agriculture fields. Hayes' research group is currently sampling leopard frogs in several Midwestern states (heavy users of atrazine to control weeds on corn, soybeans, and other crops) to clarify if these or other health affects occur in the wild and in different species.


Also, largely due to mass marketing, many believe bottled water to be more pure than tap water, and this is often not true---always check the label to see how it was cleaned. Moreover, with spring water and bottled water that is not filtered, water-safety regulations are sometimes actually more lax than with city water---bottled water is often tested for contaminants about half as often as is city water.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flapjax3000 said:


> I plan on sticking to distilled water, but was curious about some tap water issues. Is'nt chloramine is a bond between chlorine and ammonia? Would using a dechlorinator release more ammonia into the water by breaking the bond? I know high levels of ammonia are deadly to fish, but how do pdf's react to it?


Some dechlorinators are also able to neutralize the ammonia. Keep in mind that ammonia is really only a problem in alkaline water. In acidic waters more and more of it is protenated and converted to ammonium which is non-toxic. 

Ed


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Sorry to bring this back up, but this thread keeps saying RO or RO/DI water as if they are the same. What is is that is used? RO water is quite different than DI water. I am finally getting a RO/DI system and just wondering if I should even use the DI unit. It will be used for misting.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

For the purposes used in the hobby a they are essentially the same (and there is post in the thread above that explains the difference). Whether or not you use the polishing filter is going to depend on the level of removal of the RO system. If you are getting a resulting TDS of around 1-2 ppm then you may not want to use the polishing system. Knowing what is in your local water supply will also help with the decision.. for example if the local water company adds silicates to the tap supply to reduce corrosion of the pipes, then a significant proportion of the solids that pass the filter are probably silicates which are harmless. 

Ed


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Thanks Ed!


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

While it's fun to compare the micro-differences between different water types, it's mostly a semantic discussion because it's over complicating how it affects our frogs. I've been using regular tap water for quite awhile and my frogs are doing great. BTW, using tap water was recommended to me by a herpetologist at UC Berkeley.

Has anybody lost a frog because they used distilled water vs. RO water?


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