# Epic dart frog vivarium



## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

I have my paycheck on my way and would like to buy dart frogs. A month ago I thought 2 vertical setups, but I recently had my room redone and really any size tank is good. First off, what's the good size for a beginner like me? The max length is about 8 feet. Budget is not really too much of an issue, as my bonus says $2811.00 on it. I would like a pretty simple (for me) to maintain build. I've seen these cool misters, what would you recommend to me for a large tank of this size? 

I've seen MANY builds and was wondering what the best background for a large tank like this would be.

If you haven't figured it out already, this tank must look amazing because it's for my house to show off to my buddies and for me to drool over 

A water feature would be cool, but don't know how one would work out. Certainly like a waterfall with little platforms and moss would look amazing. 

Also, plants. I don't know where I can order a mass amount of plants for a vivarium. 

Any recommendations for frogs? 

Thanks!


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ok, no offense but I'm confused? Have you ever had dart frogs? I'm only asking because it sounds like you haven't but you want a tank up to 8ft and are willing to dump $2800 on it. 

Is this something you really want to do or just something you want to do to impress people?

Do you have experience raising fruit flies? Will you have issues with escapees?

In any case, you should probably start with something a little more reasonable and possibly bigger frogs like tincs or terribilis maybe.

Just saying....


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

JaredJ said:


> Ok, no offense but I'm confused? Have you ever had dart frogs? I'm only asking because it sounds like you haven't but you want a tank up to 8ft and are willing to dump $2800 on it.
> 
> Is this something you really want to do or just something you want to do to impress people?
> 
> ...


No, but I had a 90 gallon reef for a while there. I also own 2 really expensive gaming computers that cost $2 grand each. I really want to do this because I have always loved amphibic herptoculture and cloud forests.

I've never kept fruit flies, but I am not worried about escapes. My wife on the other hand might, but I'll convince her hopefully. It doesn't necessarily need to be 8ft LOL but something big would be awesome. I had a 90 gallon reef that was 5 feet long.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Where are you located? Checking out a local frogger's setup and getting a feel for what all is involved with keeping dart frogs my not be a horrible idea before you take the plunge.


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

i'm in Grand Junction, Colorado


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

How you start off is certainly your choice. You could start big or start small. Obviously a smaller start means less costly mistakes if/when any are made. If you've read through a lot of build threads, you'll see that most certainly mistakes are made. I started with a 150 gallon because it's what I already had. Mind you, I did months of researching and planning before I started and still felt like the biggest rookie on the block. I still do. I'm still logging on, reading and learning more from here everyday.

The great thing about this hobby is that there is such a wealth and variety of information to learn about it. Such as, all the needs of the variety frogs, the variety of plants, how to build the backgrounds, the bottoms, the substrate, which silicone, how to maintain humidity, and it goes on and on. All the information is on here through reading threads, the search function, and asking questions.

I believe what many people worry about is that people new to the hobby will rush in to it and make a mistake on any of the above mentioned items and risk killing these beautiful frogs. 

Simply put, it is one helluva an awesome hobby, but it deserves it's due respect of research and planning. My suggestion would be if you really want to go big, then take your time(tough as hell), read/research a LOT, plan, replan, ask questions, and plan again. Lol.

I don't mean to discourage you at all. Like I said, it's an awesome hobby and you'll love the frogs! Just take your time and keep us posted on your build! We love pics! Keep in mind, these terrific people on Dendroboard will help you, but they care about the frogs more! So treat them right! Lol.

Good luck and enjoy!

P.S.-I'm still a rookie, so take my advice for what it is. You'll learn the experienced vets on here that know their business! Hopefully they'll chime in and give you more seasoned advice.


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

kitcolebay said:


> How you start off is certainly your choice. You could start big or start small. Obviously a smaller start means less costly mistakes if/when any are made. If you've read through a lot of build threads, you'll see that most certainly mistakes are made. I started with a 150 gallon because it's what I already had. Mind you, I did months of researching and planning before I started and still felt like the biggest rookie on the block. I still do. I'm still logging on, reading and learning more from here everyday.
> 
> The great thing about this hobby is that there is such a wealth and variety of information to learn about it. Such as, all the needs of the variety frogs, the variety of plants, how to build the backgrounds, the bottoms, the substrate, which silicone, how to maintain humidity, and it goes on and on. All the information is on here through reading threads, the search function, and asking questions.
> 
> ...


Thanks for typing that up! You are certainly right about maybe starting small so if something goes wrong, it won't be too much of an issue. i've been logging on about every day since early August, and reading over pages for about 30-60 minutes every day. I haven't asked many questions though.

One thing i will not do is rush. I've learned from past experiences with my other hobbies that rushing always turns into an issue, so i will certainly take my time. Maybe do something like one of those Exo terra's and work off of that.

Thanks for all of your guy's imput!


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

You're very welcome. You are welcome to start big if you want. If you take your time, research, and plan carefully, then anything is possible! 

Like I said, I started with a 6 ft./150 gallon. I don't regret it at all. I love it! I'm just now building small tanks so I can have a few other frogs. If you've been reading on here for a while, then I'm sure you've stumbled across more than one ugly thread where someone new has asked about mixing several darts in one tank. Generally speaking, you don't do it. Few exceptions, but definitely not for beginners like you and I. Most experienced froggers don't do it for many reasons. 

So, the good and bad of a large display tank is you can only have one type of frog, but you can have a large group of them. For example, I have 12 Leucs. They are great in groups, bold, and very active. Other frogs do not do well in groups at all. 

Two approaches. Research the frogs and build the viv for them or decide the type of viv you want and get the appropriate frogs for it. (go for approach #1...lol)


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## crested (May 15, 2011)

From a couple of the posts you've made in the past, it appears you've been reading up and have some knowledge regarding supplementation and experience with plants?

It's really up to you how large a tank you want to tackle, but to be honest you'll be very surprised how quickly you'll blow through that $2800 after you buy the tank, misting system, lighting and build it out... let alone get into plants, frogs etc. 

If you're looking for something big & challenging, but manageable, I'd suggest something in the 100 gallon size range. 

There are no doubt 'challenges' to utilizing water features and many options for creating and managing them. Make sure you thoroughly scope out some others experience on here with those and fully incorporate and flesh out plans for this before getting to far along. (learnt this one the hard way myself)

Personally, I used the foam and silicone method for building my background, however from reading things over in the year since I started mine, I think I would go with the foam/tightbond III method in hindsight for its ease of working with and applying the substrate/background material


Check out the threads below: those are two should provide some great inspiration!

1) http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/65988-peninsula.html

2) http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/76581-pumilos-75-corner-viv.html

The two posts below will likely help you with your FF's and Springtails/Isopods
1) http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/66991-how-culture-isopods-woodlice-springtails.html

2) http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/79277-need-help-keeping-constant-supply-ffs.html

As for keeping FF's from freaking out the wife, try a pool of Apple Cider Vinegar and some drops of dish soap nearby the tank to attract & drown them. Reality is though, you will have escapees!

As for plants, check out some of the sponsors, you'll find some great ones there!
Dendroboard.com - Sponsors


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Tt


Chirkk said:


> I also own 2 really expensive gaming computers that cost $2 grand each.


What does this have to do with keeping frogs? ...
Other than you feeling like bragging about you spending money on "really expensive gaming computers"
Not to mention telling us how much your bonus check was. 
Seems to me that youre "showing off" just a little. 
It doesnt matter how much money you have. Money wont buy you the knowledge it takes to keep these animals healthy and alive ... so if thats your intentions/reasoning, then maybe youre choosing the wrong hobby.

If i have you pegged wrong, i apologize... but you know what they say about first impressions. 

I suggest using this website to start learning.
(Im happy to see youre beginning the effort).

Pick up some beginners guides to dart frog keeping,
(They helped me immensely when i first started ... heres a good book from one of the members/sponsors: 
http://www.poisonfrogs.net)

And start culturing your fruit flys now in order to get the hang of it.
(If you cant keep flies alive, you definitely wont be able to keep dart frogs alive... they are your frogs life line)

In the long run, You will be better informed & have a better grasp on what it takes...
Some people have given you some good info and a good starting point.

Welcome to the hobby! 
Feel free to ask myself or anyone else any questions you might have.
Good Luck and i wish you the best.

PS. I suggest you start showering your wife with gifts NOW, bc once she has that first fruit fly crawl on her while shes watching tv, shes going to lose it. I promise you! 

Its not the knowledge or experience that will end this hobby for you prematurely... its the angry wife. 
Youve been warned!


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

Crested makes a fine point about how quick the money goes. Here's a thread someone started that gave some examples. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/85944-construction-cost.html I found mine in there that showed I spent over $900, but if you look at a lot of my costs, I got away very cheap. For example, my tank and filters was only $50! I bargain shopped and went with what I had available.

I just read Gamble's post. I agree with what he said. He took a more blunt and straight forward approach. Lol. I was trying to be a little more gentle about it. Like I said, the members value and care for the hobby and frogs very much. Many hope and expect to see it given a certain amount of respect(at least that's my perspective on it).


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

kitcolebay said:


> I just read Gamble's post. I agree with what he said. He took a more blunt and straight forward approach. Lol. I was trying to be a little more gentle about it. Like I said, the members value and care for the hobby and frogs very much. Many hope and expect to see it given a certain amount of respect(at least that's my perspective on it).


Yea sorry about that! 

Anyone here that knows me in real life, will tell you that im a pretty straight forward and blunt person. Im one of those people who will say whats on their mind minus the sugar-coating. I may come across as an a**hole sometimes, but i do mean well. 

BUT i did edit it & tone it down a LITTLE bit ...


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

The thing I cringe at is the wow factor. There are so many people that wow at something and want it only to have it fizzle out and then they let it go. I've seen it with reef tanks, frogs etc.

Just an example, I fly r/c helicopters.









I've always loved helicopters. I actually need 20 more hours and a final to get a private pilots license, unfortunately that's almost 6 grand. Anyway, with the r/c helis we would all meet at the field on the weekends and fly. The single most hated question was "how much do they cost". If you have to ask, you shouldn't be flying them. R/C helis are difficult to fly and require your utmost attention and you have to do six things at once. There was actually a guy at a fly-in who was hovering to close and had the rotor blades hit him in the neck killing him.

Point is, most people wanted to buy them because they thought they looked cool and most of the people who did found out how hard they are and how much they cost to repair after a crash and quickly sold their stuff.

Frogs shouldn't be like that. They should be something that should be cared for as long as possible. They aren't disposable. Hell, look at posts about people selling frogs because they are going off to school. Honestly, IMO, if they knew they were going to go to school then why did they get them in the first place.


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

JaredJ said:


> The thing I cringe at is the wow factor. There are so many people that wow at something and want it only to have it fizzle out and then they let it go. I've seen it with reef tanks, frogs etc.
> 
> Just an example, I fly r/c helicopters.
> 
> ...


I usually keep my hobbies for as long as I can, or at least 5 years. I really don't do much (I finished school, have a bachelors degree) and my job isn't time consuming. As I mentioned, I kept a reef. I had it for about 6 years, before I decided that I wanted to jump into something else. 

To Gamble, sorry if I came off as a bragger, I was just trying to point out that money really isn't a constraint. When I first went into reefing, I made all these crazy posts about how I can save money, but as my work got me more income, I decided to go all out and not cheap out on anything. i learned that the hard way when my first reef was a failure (I ended up killing tons of coral, and fish too.) and I don't want to mess anything up.

I will say that any hobby I jump into (that is, after my first reefing incident) I try to research as much as possible, and try to be really patient. Basically what i'm aiming for is not something that is eye pleasing, but also a perfect habitat for keeping dart frogs and plants. i've seen many posts (even some that are 5 years old on here) where people forgot something or did something wrong and had to redo it. 

Thank you for the link, I will start reading up on it right after I finish typing this post.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

1 went from 10g to 20l to 20h to 15 to 20xh to 10g verts to a 29 and I have a big empty exo that will be in the works in 2013.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

I would say start small, I'm a noob and didn't.

I'm only a couple months in and have 20 frogs with more pricey ones on the way. Went from 0 to 12 tanks now with some still under construction. Frogs are all healthy and happy but I have spent 2 or 3 times more money and countless more hours then I needed to. Even if money isn't a big obstacle it still kind of sucks. The things you would do different after a couple builds in are huge. 

I bought 2 monsoons that suck and just ordered the advanced mistking and 16 nozzles.
Bought hydroton at pet store for little bag then figured out you can get the huge dog food size bags at hydroponics store for $35. Bought rack then needed stronger one. Lots of wasted effort. It goes on and on.... luckily my frogs are doing good


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Chirkk said:


> I usually keep my hobbies for as long as I can, or at least 5 years.


You do realize that dart frogs can live 10 - 20 yrs if properly cared for, right?
They will outlive your dog, your cat and quite possibly even your marriage 



Chirkk said:


> To Gamble, sorry if I came off as a bragger


Its all good, no offense taken



Chirkk said:


> i learned that the hard way when my first reef was a failure (I ended up killing tons of coral, and fish too.) and I don't want to mess anything up.


Hence why we are all stressing the importance of learning first to avoid this. Its taken many if not most of us, months and months (sometimes years) of learning before we actually purchased our first frogs




Chirkk said:


> I will say that any hobby I jump into (that is, after my first reefing incident) I try to research as much as possible, and try to be really patient. Basically what i'm aiming for is not something that is eye pleasing, but also a perfect habitat for keeping dart frogs and plants. i've seen many posts (even some that are 5 years old on here) where people forgot something or did something wrong and had to redo it.


Smart decision. Patience is key in this hobby and it will pay off in the long run. I am also an impatient person & ive had to pay the price numerous times. Dont be that person.

Might i also suggest, (like what zbrinks stated to an extent), besides visiting others homes to see their setups, if possible, try to find a mentor; someone who has been doing this for a LONG time. Mine has been in the hobby for 20+ years; (Mike Novy). Their knowledge & experience will be invaluable to you. I thought i knew alot, but didnt realize how little i truly knew until i had a mentor and learned from him.



Chirkk said:


> Thank you for the link, I will start reading up on it right after I finish typing this post.


Glad to hear it!


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## tfox799947 (Jun 4, 2012)

If I knew then what I know now....Here is my 2 cents.
I had no idea how addicting frogging could be, it is sort of like M&Ms--you can't have just one.
So I would start with a nice rack, shelf or built in wall unit. Then if you want more terrestrial frogs, get a 40 breeder and start there. I now have 6 tanks going and my first one is by far the most uncreative build (I was new and didn't read enough). My last on is the coolest (I think). I guess what I am trying to say is there is such a learning curve and it can't be done by all reading. You learn from your experience, what works and what doesn't.
But anyway, by starting of with rack/shelf space you always have room to get more tanks and more morphs.
I just bought a fishtank stand that would hold 2-75 gallon tanks, but I have 2-20 gallon verts, a 20 gallon horizontal on the top shelf and a 36x24x18 and a 10 gallon grow-out tank on the bottom. I think it is a nice setup, maybe not as epic as a 8 foot tank, but a lot more flexible and if done correctly can make quite a statement.
Good luck with all your decisions and have fun spending that bonus check.
Christine


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## scooter64 (Aug 9, 2011)

Let me add my 2 cents here. I became interested in raising dart frogs well over a year ago and have no previous knowledge in how to properly care for them and am now just starting to build my tank. There is so much to learn in this hobby to maintain a healthy habitat for your frogs I would suggest banking your check for a while until you are confident you can properly care for your frogs. I know how it is to be anxious to get something up as soon as possible and it has been hard for me at times to pull in the reigns and resist that tempation to do some impulsive things. Remember, all the money in the world cannot ressurect a dead frog(s) or undo the aggravation when you realize you should have done something differently and now have to do it over. I must have changed my mind a thousand times about how to set up my tank, what species I want to keep, what equipment to buy, what plants I am going to put in, and list goes on and on. Take your time, read every sticky on every forum, ask questions, and I believe you will be much happier in the long run. As Alton Brown would say, "your patience will be rewarded". Best of luck to you...


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

Gamble said:


> Tt
> 
> What does this have to do with keeping frogs? ...
> Other than you feeling like bragging about you spending money on "really expensive gaming computers"
> ...


I kept my mouth shut this time!!!!!!! But, to the OP, after 10 years of experience, my strongest advice would be for you to start out small with a vivarium that you feel confident that you can maintain. Plant that vivarium and keep it going for a few months and if all is going well, then introduce yourself to some pdf's.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Tinctoc said:


> I kept my mouth shut this time!!!!!!!


LOL.
I was waiting to hear from you! 
I figured you wouldve jumped all over that one.


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Tinctoc said:


> I kept my mouth shut this time!!!!!!! But, to the OP, after 10 years of experience, my strongest advice would be for you to start out small with a vivarium that you feel confident that you can maintain. Plant that vivarium and keep it going for a few months and if all is going well, then introduce yourself to some pdf's.


No offense meant, but when I saw that you had posted on this thread my first thought was 'ooohhh, this will be good." Nice self control


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## Lifeguard (Jun 30, 2011)

I would say start with a simple 10 gallon setup with some brave frogs like leucomelas or something. But read into whatever frog you get before buying one. I still hand mist all my tanks. After a while if you decide you like it still and want to invest more then upgrade. I am currently letting my 75 gal fill in before I introduce my leucs into it.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

tfox799947 said:


> I had no idea how addicting frogging could be, it is sort of like M&Ms--you can't have just one.


That's another point. I've seen many posts where someone decided to get frogs, then set up 5-10 tanks and bought a bunch. Then they realize...holy crap this is alot of work.

They should start with a couple or a pair/group, one tank maybe. Then start adding little by little.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

i started keeping frogs just about 1 year ago, but had been planning on getting them for about a year before that. my first viv set up was a 58 corner that i used as a temporary holding tank while my big viv was being built. my big viv is 9x4x5 feet so it is in the range of the biggest viv you are contemplating. i had someone else do the carpentry and glass work but i did all the plumbing and sealing and interior build out of the viv. minus plants and frogs the build cost of my viv as probably approaching 2 grand but that is a really crude estimate. as far a planting and frogs the sky is the limit on what you can spend. i have enjoyed my large viv and think it is doing very well. this fall i am starting another project. my woodworker will be building me a furniture quality rack system that will hold 5 vivs and all the equiptment for them. it will be around 72 inches long. the nice thing about a more modular approach is that you can keep more species without mixing them and keep conditions different in different vivs. its good to hear you are reading alot. see what inspires you and what would look good in the space you are placing it. people who are not in the hobby always seem more impressed my one large tank or viv than by several smaller ones. please feel free to ask any questions that i could help with. steve


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

I'll hop on the bandwagon here . I know it's not what you want to hear right now, believe me I get it, but... in almost every case it's never a good idea to start off really big. Get yourself a 10 or 20 gallon. Take your time setting it up. Get a pair of frogs. See how they and the plants do. Odds are you'll love them. After a few months you're still sure you want a big show tank. Go for it. In the three to six months you took with your first tank you will have read a lot and gained some first hand experience that will prepare you for the fun and challenges of setting up a big show tank. I'm currently setting up a six foot long 125 gallon display viv myself. After two decades of herp experience and a solid nine years of setting up dart frog vivs this one is still giving me challenges! By all means start right away, life is short. Just start slow, start small, and gain experience. Then get that big tank! Good luck!


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## djone2 (Mar 8, 2012)

If you are going to go big, go ahead. I know the smart thing to do is to start with a small tank and make sure it does well before moving on to bigger things, but from what I can tell, you want to go big now and you are pretty set on it. So go for it.

However, I do recommend instead of doing a huge tank, do a number of smaller ones side by side. ie instead of doing an 8ft long tank, do 4 2ft long tanks side by side. If you want this to be a centerpiece for your room, my guess is that you will want more than one type of frog. If you get a huge tank, you will be limited to one species of frog, and trust me, you will have that itch to get a different species (do not mix them, lest you wish to invoke the furor of the forum). If you want to get creative, you can do a continuous design that goes from tank to tank which will give it the appearance of being one tank or you can do different themes for each tank


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## Nath514 (Jul 8, 2012)

djone2 said:


> If you are going to go big, go ahead. I know the smart thing to do is to start with a small tank and make sure it does well before moving on to bigger things, but from what I can tell, you want to go big now and you are pretty set on it. So go for it.
> 
> However, I do recommend instead of doing a huge tank, do a number of smaller ones side by side. ie instead of doing an 8ft long tank, do 4 2ft long tanks side by side. If you want this to be a centerpiece for your room, my guess is that you will want more than one type of frog. If you get a huge tank, you will be limited to one species of frog, and trust me, you will have that itch to get a different species (do not mix them, lest you wish to invoke the furor of the forum). If you want to get creative, you can do a continuous design that goes from tank to tank which will give it the appearance of being one tank or you can do different themes for each tank


I think the continuous idea would look really neat, I would love to see someone with a whole wall of many tanks that all flow one to the next!


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

Nath514 said:


> I think the continuous idea would look really neat, I would love to see someone with a whole wall of many tanks that all flow one to the next!


I actually saw a cool few threads just like that, but i'd have to find them again.


Thanks everyone for the input! I will continue to do work and hopefully get the tank setup (minus any frogs) and let it settle in for a month or so. Will buy frogs though and keep them in multiple smaller setups to let them get a little accumulated and get in the habit of the day to day chores.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

That'll do donkey, that'll do...

-Shrek


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

I wanna do a quick update, been keeping these buggers for a few years now and everything i going great and I love the hobby! Thanks for all your help guys

Got an 80 gallon setup, 3x 20 gallon setups, and a masterpiece 160 gallon setup, all run under a mistking and with beautiful enclosures

Also, drop acid not bombs! Stay trippy


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Dont be shy, post pictures 😁


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