# Cull or not to cull......



## VancouverBetta (Sep 25, 2009)

Having my 1st tads I can see the variance in development to their siblings. Currently have 20 Auratus tads from 5 different clutches all at various stages. There are a couple tads that are much smaller than others of that given clutch. Should I cull these tads now or is their a chance they will still develop normally just at a slower rate?

Also, when you change your supplement regimen, how long does it take to work through a frog's system and start affecting results?

Cheers!


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

just let them be and let them morph out, just cause they are smaller does not mean they are bad tads, supplements can take a few days to a few weeks to take effect on a frog if you are refering to breeding


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Yep, don't cull based on perceived issues of robustness. They can be misleading and ultimately contribute to selective line breeding. Now is a frog has SLS and can't support itself, then that's another issue.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Well......honestly.....I'm 6"2" tall and I had recommended culling all the short people years ago....then I married a 5' 1 beauty and I changed my mind. Now I say cull all the fat people 

JK of course....to all you vertical challenged and girthy froggers out there. 

Betta, 
in all seriousness I think I would agree with leaving the tads. I have found that sometimes communal rearing will lead to some tads being smaller then others so if not already done you can grow out the smaller ones separate.

Also you may consider tossing the containers they are in if they are plastic...just in case they are 'leaching' some unknown chemical. 

Another consideration is that they just might be smaller then their sibs...like my silly examples above. Not all sibs are perfectly uniform.

Best,


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

sports_doc said:


> Well......honestly.....I'm 6"2" tall and I had recommended culling all the short people years ago....then I married a 5' 1 beauty and I changed my mind.


LMAO Shawn

I'm 6 5" and the wife is 5 4". hahaha

I wouldn't cull just because they're a little slower developing. I'd wait and see what happens if/when they hit land.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

frogfreak said:


> LMAO Shawn
> 
> I'm 6 5" and the wife is 5 4". hahaha
> 
> I wouldn't cull just because they're a little slower developing. I'd wait and see what happens if/when they hit land.


Yep, even when I suspect SLS I don't make the call until they hit land, because I have been wrong in the past. Incidently, I'm 6'5 and my wife is 5'4...I'm sensing a trend.


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## VancouverBetta (Sep 25, 2009)

Well I am 5'8 and can kick u 6'5ers asses! Ya, not really, but sounded good.

These tads are not communally raised actually, and this one is a lot smaller! I will try and get a comparison pic to post....


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I wouldn't cull. In nature a dying tadpole is, in some sense or another, natural selection at work. However, here in captivity attempts at simulating natural selection are futile. All you'll be doing is artificially selecting for tads that grow out faster when there's really no evidence that those tadpoles would not have survived in the wild.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I have had tads sometimes develop much slower. For me usually, it happens if they hatch from the eggs late for whatever reason. For example, I had a clutch of 4 leuc eggs, 2 hatched at 15 days and the other two took their time before hatching at around 22 days. The first two out morphed at a normal, quick time. However, the slower two morphed out at 3.5 months- a good 5 weeks later than the others. All ended up growing fine, so I would wait to see what happens. I did have one time where a tad was very small, developed some gas bubble in his stomach and stayed a tad without any legs for about 7-8 months before he finally died. I don't know what happened with him, but it's only happened to me once.
Bryan


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

I'm becoming a big fan of grow out tanks with clay substrate, tons of leaf litter, micro organisms and feed flies one or two times a week. Just throw a couple froglets in there and what happens happens. In fact what often happens is that all the froglets make it, grow quickly and do better than the 'sterile' grow outs I used to use.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Boondoggle said:


> Yep, even when I suspect SLS I don't make the call until they hit land


Exactly. It's not worth the risk.

edit: I'm 6'1" - Kate is 5'2" - Definitely a trend on dendroboard.


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## VancouverBetta (Sep 25, 2009)

*SLS???*
All 3 look same.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

he looks fien to me!


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

You should wait until they atleast morph... Keep in mind that there are different levels of culling. To end a life is the last option referring to major genetic or defomed issues and to seperate a frog from the breeding population should be considered first when you see a minor defect. 
6'3'' tall,wife is 5'2''. It seems to be a trend?
Michael


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## VancouverBetta (Sep 25, 2009)

Ya I wasn't going to make any drastic decisions too soon for sure. Especially since these are my 1st out-of-water frogs! Just wanted to get advice on if it looks like SLS as some have suggested they are. They morphed in 57 days from hatching date. Is that too soon for Auratus? Maybe the temps were too high and caused rapid development & SLS? When I look at online pics of SLS they resemble mine.

Here are pics from today;




























1 of the 3 is no longer using its left arm! Its stuck underneath it and just hops as best it can without the use of the arm. I thought the arm was gone but no, its actually there. It did pop and was in use previously.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

those last few pics do look like SLS to me, the arms are way too thin.


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## VancouverBetta (Sep 25, 2009)

So that last pic showin the froglet not using 1 arm is still like this 2 days later. Should I put it down and if so, how? In fish keeping we use the freezer as the most humane way....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is an article on caudata culture.com that I would normally link to but each time I try to post a link I get a database error. 
freezing is not acceptable. I would suggest checking out the article there...
Ed


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## VancouverBetta (Sep 25, 2009)

Ed said:


> There is an article on caudata culture.com that I would normally link to but each time I try to post a link I get a database error.
> freezing is not acceptable. I would suggest checking out the article there...
> Ed


Thanks I found it

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/euthanasia.shtml


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## VancouverBetta (Sep 25, 2009)

So they been out of water for 5 days now and they don't seem to move very well. Doesn't look like they can hold themselves up with their fronts. They rarely move and don't climb the sides at all.
Can someone tell me is a 57 day morph out time too fast for Auratus? Does this seem like SLS?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

They will usually morph around the 60 day mark, however it sounds like they have sls from what you are describing


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

If they are having mobility issues, cull them. That looks like SLS.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

looks like SLS to me. Time to get yourselfsome orajel


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## VancouverBetta (Sep 25, 2009)

Aw dammit. Hopefully the next batch will do better!


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## ktewell (Dec 17, 2009)

Good luck 

I'm having the same issues as you right now. My first auratus froglets are morphing out with SLS. Hopefully both of ours will have success very soon!


Kevin


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