# New baby on the way, worried about frog toxicity



## Giga (Mar 31, 2011)

Me and my wife are about to have or first baby, and I'm worried that I should get rid of my dart frogs. The viv is on my livening room and am worried that some how the baby would touch something that would have been contaminated from the viv? How worried should I be?


----------



## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

i would not worry at all i have a 2 year old who is always in my frog room with me with no issues. I have had my frogs for many years before my kid was born and she has not paid any attention to them until now.


----------



## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

CB Dart frogs are not (ever) toxic in captivity...


----------



## Giga (Mar 31, 2011)

Not sure why this is in the beginner section now as I'm not a beginner, anyway you didn't have an issue with and new born or anything?


----------



## Giga (Mar 31, 2011)

MeiKVR6 said:


> Dart frogs are not (ever) toxic in captivity...


I'm just worried that a newborn immune system is relative weak compared to an adult I just don't want any problems if I can avoid it


----------



## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

I have two kids, never had an issue. This is a good opportunity to teach them (as he/she ages) about hand washing, etc. Any salmonella risk will be a minimum since our vivs are more like fish tanks than anything usually encountered in the herp side of the hobby. 

You'll probably find that as the baby grow, staring into the tanks will be a great pass-time.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Household cleaning products are more of a danger to your baby than the frogs. As long as you keep things sanitary, I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Hey, it's better for you to be safe than sorry.  All I meant was that darts are not any more of a threat than any other amphibian/reptile pet. Standard precautions (locking the vivarium, keeping things sterile, keeping all accessories out of reach, etc...) have been enough for all the hobbyists I've met with kids.

Congrats on being a parent, by the way!

Edit: Jacobi & Harpo beat me to it!


----------



## Giga (Mar 31, 2011)

Yeah because I really love dart frogs but would gladly give them up for my daughter, still need to decide on what I want to do. Would love for feedback still.


----------



## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

MeiKVR6 said:


> Dart frogs are not (ever) toxic in captivity...


Not true. You don't know what type of frogs that Giga has. They could be WC and still in captivity. That would then stipulate that they are still toxic. I think a good question to ask him is, does he have any WC frogs, if not then he should be fine. If however he has WC frogs (pumilio or tincs) then he might want to have that particular tank moved to a space the baby would not be able to reach until she is capable of understanding the concept.


----------



## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

VenomR00 said:


> Not true. You don't know what type of frogs that Giga has. They could be WC and still in captivity. That would then stipulate that they are still toxic. I think a good question to ask him is, does he have any WC frogs, if not then he should be fine. If however he has WC frogs (pumilio or tincs) then he might want to have that particular tank moved to a space the baby would not be able to reach until she is capable of understanding the concept.


by the time the baby is able to walk or ever get to a tank on her own the toxins should not be present any longer.


----------



## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

This is a completly persoanal note, My wife and I had a cameleon and african spur torts in the house in a large turtle box, our son at the age of 6-8 months old got salmonella blood poisning which had us in the hospital for 10 days, whether or not true once the doctors heard we had reptiles thats what they pinned it on. I dont think it was from the cameleon or turtles, but after that experaince the turtles got moved out side and the cameleon was sold. Once my son turned 2 I got dart frogs and they are in a seperate room. With yours being in the living room, your daughter once she starts walking will put everything in her mouth. This is all personal experience and you will probably get 20 people on here saying they have kids and never had an issue, but having your 7 month old in the hospital having blood taken everyday for 10 days is not fun.


----------



## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

shrum said:


> by the time the baby is able to walk or ever get to a tank on her own the toxins should not be present any longer.


Lets discuss this. Say he opens his viv and his frog jumps out or even hes just doing routine maintenance and a leaf falls on the ground. Baby is crawling over and happens to put the leaf in mouth. Toxins introduced. 

Sure this is not very likely but rather then just sugar coating this because some people have had this experience or that experience, I am giving logical possibilities, because as a parent (I am not, but have many friends that are) you lose track of what your doing at times. When you have a child you have to worry about every and all contingencies even if the probability is extremely low.

Not trying to be rude shrum, just want to make a point that anything can happen.


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

As long as you are feeding fruit flies or the regular feeders in the hobby you shouldn't worry about the frogs themselves being toxic. I don't think you would have your infants handling the frogs with their bare hands anyway, so I wouldn't imagine this would be an issue.

I think of greater _potential_ concern would be potential pathogens that are living in the frog room. Things like molds that might be growing in your fruit fly cultures or in your actual viv, which could be releasing toxic spores into the air, or other unknown pathogens that might be lurking in some moist corner. I wouldn't imagine however, that there is anything floating around in your frog room that wouldn't be floating around your garden for example.

When in doubt, consult your pediatrician. I would ask when it is acceptable to expose your child to pets/plants/etc.

I personally wouldn't worry about anything. Thousands of years ago, people were born into a world full of dirt, pollen, and pathogens, and their immune systems were designed to try to cope with all of that. I believe that there is growing research that's finding that people that are not exposed to these potential allergens at an early age are more likely to have "faulty" immune systems, and are more prone to develop allergies and asthma (eg, people that grow up on farms exposed to plants and animals almost never have allergies, compared to people that grow up in cities).

Sooooo, when in doubt, consult your pediatrician. Most times they'll tell you that you have nothing to worry about


----------



## Ebiforest (Jan 25, 2013)

For her piece of mind, I got rid of all my frogs/fish/reptiles when I had my first born. My wife was paranoid about salmonella because the media was scaring the public. It was okay with me, I know I will be back eventually.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I wouldn't worry about toxins but all of us, babies and adults alike, are at risk for contracting zoonotic infections. Keep things clean but be aware that there are risks. Lots of hand washing, imo, every time you contact a tank, for frog related item.


----------



## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

hypostatic said:


> .....
> I personally wouldn't worry about anything. Thousands of years ago, people were born into a world full of dirt, pollen, and pathogens, and their immune systems were designed to try to cope with all of that. I believe that there is growing research that's finding that people that are not exposed to these potential allergens at an early age are more likely to have "faulty" immune systems, and are more prone to develop allergies and asthma (eg, people that grow up on farms exposed to plants and animals almost never have allergies, compared to people that grow up in cities).
> ......


While I totally agree with you point, this is not the greatest analogy since infant mortality was about 80% thousands of years ago.


----------



## cosmo (Apr 27, 2010)

I have 2 little ones and the only thing i did was make sure the vivariums are put up high enough where they cannot reach them and shelf is attached to the wall so they can not knock it over. They frogs are not toxic in captivity the reasons why i put tanks up high so curious little ones wont help the froggies escape or to pull them over on themselves.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Quite frankly, if you have a vivarium that a child can knock over, you have not set it up right.


----------



## Giga (Mar 31, 2011)

What do you guys think because my viv had frogs in it and I guess I'm not gonna get new frogs for now. It's been 5 months since my past frogs past away is the viv still a concern?


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Giga said:


> What do you guys think because my viv had frogs in it and I guess I'm not gonna get new frogs for now. It's been 5 months since my past frogs past away is the viv still a concern?


Are you keeping the baby in the terrarium?


----------



## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

I thought mostly everyone said the viv is NOT a concern as long as you follow "standard precautions (locking the vivarium, keeping things sterile, keeping all accessories out of reach, etc...)."
What else do you need?

If you don't put the child inside the viv, it should not be a concern.


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Aw for the love of... Let's just stop--please. This is not a philosophical issue, where "more input" is somehow relevant. 

Toxicity is usually not a concern with CB dart frogs. But any small pet can be a danger to a child, as kids can and do put things in their mouths (hence, the turtle 4" regulation). 

--Children should not be around any pet(s) unsupervised;
--As Jacobi, said, just practice good sanitation. Wash hands, etc.

Think of it this way: Fire-bellied toads do not lose their toxicity. Would I give them up? No--it would be similar to asking can a kid be around a bird cage, a snake tank, an aquarium (yes, there is a kid out there that put a neon in his/her mouth...). Just use common sense and safety protocols--hand washing, locked cages, etc.

2) On another note, salmonella: Look, it is true that young children do not have developed immune systems. But the real deal is that unless the kid is making out with the reptiles, the odds of salmonella transmission are actually quite low; food stuffs are a much more likely vector for transmission. But again, there is no acceptable reason for young children to be around reptiles (or any other pets) unsupervised. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

VenomR00 said:


> Not true. You don't know what type of frogs that Giga has. They could be WC and still in captivity. That would then stipulate that they are still toxic.


Touché. Edited post to reflect that point. While the vast, vast majority of available frogs today are CB, I agree we shouldn't assume.


----------



## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Both of my girls were raised from day one with, Frilled Dragons, Bearded Dragons, Dart Frogs, Chameleons and never showed any ill effects. . They were very hands on as well.. My oldest will be 21 this year and although she is a pain in the rear...........they never got sick.


----------



## rahunt2 (Jan 4, 2009)

I am not a parent nor a medical professional but I think your average trash can could have as many potential pathogens as your average dart frog container, actually there are likely more. One thing to consider is that I always have fruit flies running around my house and they would seem the most likely vector of concern to me. They get into everything and could carry potential disease.


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

phender said:


> While I totally agree with you point, this is not the greatest analogy since infant mortality was about 80% thousands of years ago.


I concur. I'm sure the high mortality rate was in no part from putting things in their mouths that should not have gone in there. And I believe infant mortality was still pretty high until the 1800s or something when science was discovering about microbes and their link to disease.

Anecdotally, I've been raised in a city environment, with parents that were extremely worried about cleanliness and microbes, etc. I have my fair share of allergies, and I get sick extremely easily. My girlfriend was brought up in a much more... liberal environment; I think she's told me that she's eaten her fair share of dirt. She has no allergies and I think she's gotten sick maybe twice in her life or something.

A little LESS anecdotal, here is a study that explores treating asthma with hookworms (Experimental hookworm infection: a randomized placebo-controlled trial in asthma - Feary - 2009 - Clinical & Experimental Allergy - Wiley Online Library). Oh and I totally recommend listening to this podcast by Radiolab, it's really great stuff and I promise you'll be entertained (Sculptors of Monumental Narrative - Radiolab)

TO THE OP:
I'm sure you've already read up on this, but in case you haven't you should look into baby-proofing everything. As previously mentioned, you should plan for the unexpected. And you should definitely plan on things being put into your kid's mouth. If you want to be extremely cautious you could wipe down the living room (and any object that you might have touched after messing with something frog-related) with lysol or something. I would recommend asking your pediatrician about baby-safe disinfectants (also keep in mind that while it might be baby-safe, it might not be frog-safe). It's also general good practice to wash before, after, and in between tanks/flies to prevent cross-contamination.



Giga said:


> I'm just worried that a newborn immune system is relative weak compared to an adult I just don't want any problems if I can avoid it


Speaking of which (and this might be badly off topic so if it's inappropriate any mod is welcome to delete this section), if there ARE any potential pathogens in your house and you and your spouse haven't shown any symptoms of being afflicted by them, then your immune systems have most likely produced antibodies against them (assuming, again, that the pathogens are present). It's been known for some time that breastfeeding transfers immunity to babies, so if your infant is breastfeeding she might have some resistance to frog-room-stuff transferred to her. You can consult your pediatrician about it, and here are some articles/pages for your reading pleasure:
Innate Immunity and Human Milk
http://kellymom.com/pregnancy/bf-prep/how_breastmilk_protects_newborns/
How Breastfeeding Transfers Immunity To Babies
ScienceDirect.com - Annals of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology - Breastfeeding Provides Passive and Likely Long-Lasting Active Immunity


----------



## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I would worry more about touching the toilet seat or an old kitchen sponge and forgetting to wash your hands than anything coming out of your terrarium.

As he/she gets older, just make sure whatever it is placed on is nothing something that could be tipped over (i.e. fall on them) when they are learning to walk/bouncing off the walls. 

Our kids have been raised surrounded by numerous terrariums and aquariums and we have never had a problem.


----------



## ForbiddenFrogs (Feb 5, 2013)

I have a new born, 2 months old and over 70 PDFs and haven't had any problems


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

ForbiddenFrogs said:


> I have a new born, 2 months old and over 70 PDFs and haven't had any problems


That's way too many frogs for your babies health. Send me 25 or so


----------



## ForbiddenFrogs (Feb 5, 2013)

will have a lot stuff otw soon, and every week I get at least 4 to 6 more PDFs I don't have im addicted to them, and the baby just watches um at them its cute


----------



## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

My neighbor just had to ditch his entire collection because he discovered his 6 month old was allergic to mites!

Not toxic, but definitely something to look into!


----------



## Giga (Mar 31, 2011)

I have done of research I just wanted people experience


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

jacobi said:


> Quite frankly, if you have a vivarium that a child can knock over, you have not set it up right.


Quite frankly, you have never seen a toddler and/or an exo terra stand. 

Anyway, as others have said... Just sanitize things and be smart about it. Keep the tanks out of reach and (as with everything else in the house) take extra steps to anchor/secure things. 

As weird as it sounds, I think a couple of the threads where people talk about cat proofing may be worth a read.

Obviously, there are going to be extreme cases like the aforementioned mite allergy, but you can't really do anything to prevent that. You can get a mite infestation in your kitchen pantry, so that isn't really a dart-frog/pet exclusive problem (though they can exacerbate the problem).


----------



## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Id be worried about the baby introducing unknown pathogens to the frogs, so make sure to boil it or put it in an autoclave before letting the frogs get near it. They can be nasty little creatures.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

carola1155 said:


> Quite frankly, you have never seen a toddler and/or an exo terra stand.


With all due respect, I have seen many toddlers. More than any one person here on the board, unless they work in a nursery, kindergarten, etc. 

And I don't use Exo-Terra stands. And never will, if they are as unsafe as you make them out to be. 

My point wasn't to start an argument, or attack or point fingers in any way, it was simply to point out that if a toddler can knock over a terrarium, on whatever stand it's resting, one has not taken the care they should have taken when dealing with curious children and tens of pounds of dangerous glass panes.


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I didnt think you were pointing fingers or anything... I'm just saying that properly set up terrarium and childproof terrarium are two totally different things. 

the exo stands are fine and functional, but would I trust them around kids? not unless they were anchored somehow.

That being said, I have a couple 12x12x18s that could probably get knocked off their desk by a little monster... does that mean they arent properly set up? nope.
As I mentioned in the rest of my other post... the important thing is just to take all the normal precautions you take with every other item in your house when you have kids.


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Look, the reason I do not feel that other “people’s experiences” are relevant is quite simple—accidents can and do happen. Ever since the 19th C, people with SS have been keeping collectibles; ever since the 20th C middle-class people have been doing same. Books, paintings, sculpture, antiques, toys, sporting goods, aquaria; all can cause accidents--as can tools or household implements. What is so hard about this? I mean—and I am not trying to be a wise guy—shall I not have windows because a toddler can fall out? Not use cleaners? No electrical sockets? Not let the kid play outside because of the (remote) possibility of abduction? Not ride bicycles? How about airplane travel? All of these things have caused accidents or tragedies. Life goes on. Having a planted tank is probably among the safer hobbies for a whole family—certainly statistically safer than (again, not being a wise guy) guns, venomous snakes or a swimming pool--or even a dominant-breed dog or a horse.

Just be careful! And congratulations


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Let me try an analogy: I do not know how many here remember that, during the 1980s, there was a period of time when pics of missing children were posted on milk cartons for everyone to see. The news and John what's-his-name (Walsh?) made it seem as if there was a #@&!* epidemic of abductions.

Know why it abruptly stopped? Because there was no epidemic; turns out that at least 2/3 to 3/4 of the missing kids were the result of _ongoing custody battles_. No epidemic of white middle-aged Glengarry Glen Ross guys in Cadillacs prowling about schoolyards. 

Yet, for a few years, people wee gripped with fear (To this day, it seems that Halloween has yet to recover). The moral is, do not base policy on individual anecdotes. What may have happened to someone else might truly suck--but that is not by itself a rational reason to alter one's own behavior.


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Giga said:


> I'm just worried that a newborn immune system is relative weak compared to an adult I just don't want any problems if I can avoid it


I don't think these types of toxins are immunogens anyway so your immune state is unlikely to matter. The only real good argument would be the baby is just smaller so a smaller dose could be lethal. And as others said there are tens to hundreds of items in your house that will harm or kill your baby. You just have to keep them away. Just make sure you wash your hands well and use surgical gloves going in the vivarium and you will be fine. If you want to be careful don't buy any new wild caught frogs. And don't forget your baby isn't going anywhere for months lol its just going to lay there and cry.


----------



## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

MeiKVR6 said:


> CB Dart frogs are not (ever) toxic in captivity...


Are you sure this is true? I remember reading about a doctor who had the poor idea of testing this out on one of his terribilis and got pretty sick.

I think it was a post by ed kowalski (sp) and referencing a post on a yahoo news group


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I have an almost 3 month old at home and have 16 species of darts, springs, isopods, flies, etc... I've had no problems.

Just follow safe husbandry practices and you'll be safe.

1.) Wash hands before and after working with your collection, flies, bugs, etc. Sometime my son will require attention while I'm working with my frogs, cleaning, feeding, etc. I will take that extra couple minutes to wash my hands and forarms before tending too him.

2.) Disinfect and safely dispose of wastewater.

It will take a bit of practice for you to get down working with your frogs and kid at the same time, multitasking will be involved, but you'll get it.

I frequently have my son in our office which doubles as my frog room. He loves the lights, sounds, and warmth. One of his favorite things to do is sit in his swing and watch me and the frogs. 

Just be sensible and you shouldn't have anything to worry about. In fact, I'd suggest that a child who grows up in a home with pets/darts will be better off than one that isn't. They've already proven that babies that grow up in homes with at least 1 dog are LESS likely to develop allergies and have a better immune system than those that dont.


----------

