# Dying frog, help please!



## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

Hi

I had 2 tincs and 2 leucs in a 20 gallon. 1 tinc and 1 leuc are 9 months, and the other 2 are 4 months old.

I left them for vacation last fri with a culture in the tank and had my brother check on them on wed, at which point all 4 were healthy and happy. I just got home and found the young leuc dead and the older one dying. There were plenty of flies, and humidity was good. The two tincs are apparently doing real well.

I moved the big leuc to a small tupperware container with some moist moss in it and gave him food. He is very lethargic, and not even attempting to eat. He is still fat as always, but cannot even really support his own weight. What else can I do for him?

 

Tom


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

You can give him a pedialyte soak. Get the unflavored baby pedialyte and let him soak in it, that should perk him up a bit. If there is something else seriously wrong it won't help, but if it perhaps aggression or something that he just couldn't eat and now he has gotten too weak, that should give him the extra little energy boost that he needs to be able to catch the flies again on his own


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

He died overnight. :-(

Guess I'm lucky to still have the two tincs.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2006)

Why is it that I see pedialyte baths recommended so often? Does it ever seem to fix a frog? I understand it might perk 'em up a little by giving them a little sugar, but what else can this possibly cure?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Mixing is not normally a good idea and its very possible the tincs stressed the leucs.


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## v_traves (May 14, 2005)

I agree with Kyle on this one. Tincs are very territorial and aggressive. I have heard of females drowning each other and/or wrestling until the weaker one stresses to death. This is why so many of us don't recommend mixing species. Given the relatively small area in a 20 gallon for 4 frogs, I would guess the Tincs either didn't allow the leucs to eat or stressed them to death. I have had problems with my various leuc groups and have had to seperate in some cases where dominant frogs wouldn't allow other frogs in the tank to eat, and leucs are supposed to do well in groups, unlike Tincs.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Leucs are good groupies and get along together. Tincs are territorial and don't get along with even each other, except in mated pairs, let alone another species. These two species were definitley not mixers. I know some people, including some very experienced zoo type workers claim to do some successful mixing of different species, I don't think any beginner in the hobby should consider attempting it. When you know a hell of a lot, and have kept the individual species separately with success, maybe- By that time, you will know better and won't even want to try it unless you need to make some kind of display for the public.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

are you really 71 years old? BTW, sorry to hear about the frogs, I was actually thinking about mixing, (I am a beginner) and I have decided not to do it based on your experience. Good luck!


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

this has been moved to the General Health & Disease Treatment section.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

Pedialyte? Any takers?


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Locke said:


> Why is it that I see pedialyte baths recommended so often? Does it ever seem to fix a frog? I understand it might perk 'em up a little by giving them a little sugar, but what else can this possibly cure?


Pedialyte doesn't fix anything but can provide a bit of a boost/breather to a frog while the underlying cause of the issue is being investigated and other remedies considered....

Bill


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pedialyte may not be the best choice as the osmotic differential may cause the frog more stress. It would be better to use calcium glubionate or calcium gluconate solutions. 

See http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... e&start=30

snip "Some thoughts to ponder on the differences between pedialyte versus force feeding. 
(most of this data is being taken from Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, Reptile Medicine and Surgery, other sources will be cited as needed). 

Other than tube feeding snakes, frogs are in my experience the next easiest herp to force feed as needed (chelonians and caecilians being the hardest). I would suggest that two people be used for this procedure as this makes it even easier. One person simply restrains the frog and the second person feeds the frog. Simply getting the food into the back of the mouth will cause the frog to swallow the food. (credit cards are invaluable when used to open the mouth on very small frogs). 

When using items like pedialyte to help with the frogs, an important point to remember is that the supplement lacks, protiens, fats, and vitamins. It also lacks calcium (see analysis on http://rpdcon40.ross.com/pn/PediatricPr ... enDocument 

It also has an osmolality of 270 mOsm/kg while an isotonic amphibian ringer's solution has a osmolality of 229 mOsm/kg. This could cause further stress on the amphibian as it now has to expend energy maintaining its osmotic equilibrium. This may be a problem with frogs that have lost significant amounts of weight. 

When looking at the standard (resting) metabolic requirements (SMR) of frog at 25 C (assume a three gram frog as this is an intermediate sized frog between thumbnails and larger dart frogs) then the metabolic needs of the frog is as follows 
at 77 F (25 C) 0.174 (3) raised to 0.84 to get 0.438 ml O2/hr. 
then (0.438 ml O2/hr)(0.0048 kcal.ml O2) (24 hrs/day) = 0.5 kcals/day to support resting metabolic rate. Now an inappetant frog will have a resting metabolic rate probably at least 50% greater than the SMR which translates into 0.75 kcals/day. If the frog is thin or has lost a lot of weight, then the SMR may need to be multiplied by as much as 8 times giving a SMR of 4 kcals/day. 
If we assume that a frog can absorb 50% of the glucose (given that whether or not then can absorb any is unknown at this time but there is anecdotal evidence that at least some can be taken up) then depending on condition the frog will need to be soaked in a pedialyte bath that ranges between 11.25 mls to 60 mls to meet the SMR for energy (remember three gram frog). 
(0.75 kcal/day)(1 ml/0.1 kcals) = 7.5 mls/day + (7.5)(0.5)= 11.25 mls of pedialyte 
(4 kcal/day)(1 ml/0.1 kcals) = 40 mls/day +(40)(0.5) = 60 mls/day 

If being tube fed for example with feline clinicare (0.92 kcal/ml) then only 
(0.75 kcal/day)(1 ml/0.92 kcal) = 0.81 ml/day is needed to supply the needs of the frog (already assuming a 50% increase in the metabolic needs). This can be given more than once over the course of a day if needed to prevent gorging the frog. Clinicare also supplies, protien, fat, D3 and vitamin A (this is one of the reasons we use it at work). 

Pedialyte has its uses but it also has its limitations and this needs to be taken into account when working with sick frogs." endsnip


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