# natural gas smell in my vivarium



## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

My setup has a slight natural gas smell to it. the tank has a water feature that runs over some wood. Is this something that should concern me?


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## Youngherp420 (May 3, 2011)

I could be wrong but I think it is natural smell


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## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

my other vivariums smells more like soil, so I want to make sure...


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## Youngherp420 (May 3, 2011)

hopefully someone will confirm this so no need to worry


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you are smelling an odor like natural gas then what you are smelling is an additive to allow you to detect that gas. What you are smelling is probably a hydride from anaerobic decomposition, this means that one or more of the following are occuring, 1) the substrate is too saturated resulting in anaerobic decomposition, 2) the water in the false bottom is not circulating enough and has become stagnent/anerobic.... Something in the tank is oversaturated and is not functioning as it should. 

Ed


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## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

Should I be concerned for the health of my frogs? The water feature overflows slightly onto part of the soil, where some of my aquatic plants are thriving.

I just want to know if it is a problem?


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

I have no clue how Ed knows this stuff...


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

i think Ed might actually be my herpetology/evolution prof from college... except that his name was doug lol but they have the same type of intelligence and even in the same field! although my prof was more of a snake/lizard guy


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## BethInAK (Jul 12, 2011)

Mitch said:


> I have no clue how Ed knows this stuff...


i have begun to consider that I might be wrong and that God does exist...


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## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

Anyone know if I should be concerned for the health of my frogs?

My stock is coming in today so this is kind of a pressing matter do me!


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

How is your tank vented?


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

EntoCraig said:


> Anyone know if I should be concerned for the health of my frogs?
> 
> My stock is coming in today so this is kind of a pressing matter do me!


I don't have a clue, but I would be worried too...doesn't sound like a good thing. Until you hear back from someone who knows what they're talking about (i.e. Ed ) I would take the safest route...just in case. Place them in a sterilite or something similar with some damp sphagnum moss. Better to be safe than sorry.


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## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

johnachilli said:


> How is your tank vented?


None of my tanks are vented. They all have glass lids. 

I could probably rig up a vent so that potentially harmful gas does not build up... 

I'm surprised no one can answer my question... I can't find anything online. :/


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

I would trust Ed on this one...

do you have a pump installed for any water circulation? does the ground feel soggy instead of moist? 

If i were you I would try to fix it by installing a water pump if you don't already have one, or drain some of your water. since there are no inhabitants yet leave the lid open for a few hours to help air it out. maybe reseed with springtails (if you don't have these yet, you should get them when you get a chance

good luck!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> If you are smelling an odor like natural gas then what you are smelling is an additive to allow you to detect that gas. What you are smelling is probably a hydride from anaerobic decomposition, this means that one or more of the following are occuring, 1) the substrate is too saturated resulting in anaerobic decomposition, 2) the water in the false bottom is not circulating enough and has become stagnent/anerobic.... Something in the tank is oversaturated and is not functioning as it should.
> 
> Ed


My eyes and brain did not connect the dots properly last night. It should have read that you are smelling a *sulphide, *and not a hydride. 

H2S production is the result of anerobic decomposition because the oxygen is not getting down into the substrate. A number of plants can subsist in this sort of substrate because they pump oxygen into the root zones so the health of the plants cannot be used as an indicator. 

H2S is heavier than air and will collect in the lower portions of an unventilated enclosure. Toxicity is within the same ballpark as hydrogen cyanide. It is something that should be avoided in enclosure as along with the toxicity it is signaling that there is a serious disruption on how well the substrate is working. Anaerobic substrates lose much of thier capability to process nitrogenous wastes properly, prevent good conditions for the microfauna, and there are anecdotal reports of severe foot infections of frogs kept on undrained surfaces. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mitch said:


> I have no clue how Ed knows this stuff...


They teach most of this stuff in school... you just have to remember it. 

Ed


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## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

Ed, thanks! The water is saturating a small portion of the soil. The water itself is circulating fine. I am going to remove the saturated part and add some rock barriers and additional drainage in the area. This area has deep soil, but it is covers with moss. I will also add some ventilation.

I'm not familiar with the toxicity of gasses. Should I be worried for the health of my frogs?

The rest of the tank is not overly saturated at all... Just this particular spot.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would suggest avoiding anaerobic conditions as much as possible. 

Ed


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## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

Yes, I plan to make some slight changes to this spot... However I really need to know if my frogs a in serious jeopardy or not as it is right now.

Select one:
YES
or
NO


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Ed said:


> My eyes and brain did not connect the dots properly last night. It should have read that you are smelling a *sulphide, *and not a hydride.
> 
> H2S production is the result of anerobic decomposition because the oxygen is not getting down into the substrate. A number of plants can subsist in this sort of substrate because they pump oxygen into the root zones so the health of the plants cannot be used as an indicator.
> 
> ...


 My guess is YES!

*Cyanide = Extremely Poisonous / Deadly*


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

Ed said:


> They teach most of this stuff in school... you just have to remember it.
> 
> Ed



LOL what were you a triple major in organic chemistry, herpetology, and botany???


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## Steve88W (Jan 21, 2011)

He slept at a Holiday Inn last night...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

EntoCraig said:


> Ed, thanks! The water is saturating a small portion of the soil. The water itself is circulating fine. I am going to remove the saturated part and add some rock barriers and additional drainage in the area. This area has deep soil, but it is covers with moss. I will also add some ventilation.
> 
> I'm not familiar with the toxicity of gasses. Should I be worried for the health of my frogs?
> 
> The rest of the tank is not overly saturated at all... Just this particular spot.



Unless you have a false bottom in your system that allows for a seperation between the water and the bottom of the substrate, removing and replacing the area where the surface is saturated will not change the problem as the whole lower area of the substrate maybe saturated and anaerobic. If the area outside of the water feature doesn't drain havbe a drain or other method to prevent the water from stagnating then you will need to figure out some method to fix the stagnation. 

A properly set up enclosure should never smell like hydrogen sulphide.

Ed


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

if you have a pond area or something you could try putting an aerator like in fish tank... maybe it will aerate your soil and water better and help? just an idea, don't have a clue if it would work or not...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DendroRachel said:


> LOL what were you a triple major in organic chemistry, herpetology, and botany???


Not really, I just keep applying what I learned to better understand stuff around me... the basics are taught to everyone, it's simply if they choose to remember it and look further. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DendroRachel said:


> if you have a pond area or something you could try putting an aerator like in fish tank... maybe it will aerate your soil and water better and help? just an idea, don't have a clue if it would work or not...


 
The best option is to determine where exactly the odor is originating. A small area of anaerobic substrate is probably not the only source but instead is a symptom. I would would look at how the area outside of the water feature drains/recirculates as that is probably where the main issue is going to be found. 

Ed


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## BethInAK (Jul 12, 2011)

Ed said:


> Not really, I just keep applying what I learned to better understand stuff around me... the basics are taught to everyone, it's simply if they choose to remember it and look further.
> 
> Ed



While this may be true, Ed, I think not everyone is as smart as you are. The amount of stuff you know is astounding. I'm sure its work being as knowledgable as you are, but not everyone can get there. you are unique and special. especially since you are willing to share what you know to help us.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

BethInAK said:


> While this may be true, Ed, I think not everyone is as smart as you are. The amount of stuff you know is astounding. I'm sure its work being as knowledgable as you are, but not everyone can get there. you are unique and special. especially since you are willing to share what you know to help us.


 
Not really... I'm just curious about things.. and if you are interested in it, it makes it easier to remember... 

My wife would say I'm unique but that is mainly in relation to how mature I act at times.... 

Ed


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

"I have no special talents, I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DendroRachel said:


> "I have no special talents, I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein


I am not even comparable. I've had the pleasure to have spent time with some truly gifted people at several times in my life and I have absolutely no illusions of where I am on the scale. 

Ed


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## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

Ed said:


> Unless you have a false bottom in your system that allows for a seperation between the water and the bottom of the substrate, removing and replacing the area where the surface is saturated will not change the problem as the whole lower area of the substrate maybe saturated and anaerobic. If the area outside of the water feature doesn't drain havbe a drain or other method to prevent the water from stagnating then you will need to figure out some method to fix the stagnation.
> 
> A properly set up enclosure should never smell like hydrogen sulphide.
> 
> Ed


Yeah i have a false bottom. I fixed the offending area and plan to some ventilation. Everything was built as it should be so I am hoping this particular area will solve my issue. I have also lowered the amount of water in the system. Hopefully it will all clear up.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Lowering the water level is probably the best option. 

Ed


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## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

Ed said:


> Lowering the water level is probably the best option.
> 
> Ed


Ed, thanks so much for your help. AND EVERYONE for that matter!

You and I are a lot alike, as I love the scientific side of this hobby and love to learn how and why it all works the way it does.

Thank you for your time.


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

Ed said:


> I am not even comparable. I've had the pleasure to have spent time with some truly gifted people at several times in my life and I have absolutely no illusions of where I am on the scale.
> 
> Ed


"scio me nihil scire or scio me nescire" : "I know one thing, that I know nothing" - Socrates (via Plato of course)

lol I could do this all day Ed...


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

So, what did you end up doing for ventilation???

IMO around 10percent of the lid should be vent. I would never fully encapsulate a viv with glass  That is just asking for anaerobic decomp, and the production of such byproducts.

Also, i'm sure it helps in aerating the soil if you have microfauna such as isopods and springtails burrowing through the soil. Plenty of us in utah have cultures of several varieties on hand. 


On a further note,
On the scale of toxicity, HCN (cyanide) is 2 times more toxic than H2S in terms of ppm. To a human 100ppm of H2S is considered IDLH (immediately dangerous to life and health). However, it can be detected by the human nose at concentrations of .47ppb (far from the danger zone). In terms of amphibians, I have no idea the toxicity. On one hand they have much less mass then us, then on the other hand, they have a much lower rate of respiration than us. Just make sure to post no smoking signs in the viv, as it is a flammable gas


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

Mantellaprince20 said:


> So, what did you end up doing for ventilation???
> 
> IMO around 10percent of the lid should be vent. I would never fully encapsulate a viv with glass  That is just asking for anaerobic decomp, and the production of such byproducts.
> 
> ...


I agree that all tanks should have at least some ventilation. Not only will it help anaerobic conditions it will also help with heat buildup and IMO will result in an overall healthy vivarium.


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## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

Im going to have holes Drilled in the lid with vents. I will setup a small fan as well. 

I would love some additional Isopoda and springtails. PM me and we will figure something out.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mantellaprince20 said:


> On a further note,
> On the scale of toxicity, HCN (cyanide) is 2 times more toxic than H2S in terms of ppm. To a human 100ppm of H2S is considered IDLH (immediately dangerous to life and health). However, it can be detected by the human nose at concentrations of .47ppb (far from the danger zone). In terms of amphibians, I have no idea the toxicity. On one hand they have much less mass then us, then on the other hand, they have a much lower rate of respiration than us. Just make sure to post no smoking signs in the viv, as it is a flammable gas


There is a wide variation in differing animals on how toxic hydrogen sulphide actually is.. for example 100 ppm is 100% lethal to canaries, mainly lethal to guinea pigs but not to rats. It depends as well on the how the animals breath as hydrogen sulphide acts on several different systems. Anurans respire heavily throgh thier skins and H2S is known to be an irritant to mucousal cells at even very low levels. (this actual does a better job of explaining toxicity in various vertebrates http://www.sulfide-life.info/mtoble...ings/reiffenstein 1992 annu rev pharmacol.pdf) 

If the soil is saturated as opposed to compacted then terrestrial microfauna are not going to be able to open it up and prevent further anaerobic decomposition. 

Ed


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## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

I figure lowering the water lvl, and adjusting the water feature plus adding the buggies should cover me. The vent will be added as well.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

While you're in the mood of making some fixes in your viv... a better draining substrate, like a clay substrate or something would hold less water than straight coco or something. (I can't remember if you said what type of substrate you're using.)


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## EntoCraig (May 17, 2011)

Did a massive rebuild of this tank several months ago. The cobalts have been happy and healthy for months!


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

EntoCraig said:


> My setup has a slight natural gas smell to it. the tank has a water feature that runs over some wood. Is this something that should concern me?


I know Im extremely late onto this particular scene but charcoal in the substrate like that which is provided through ABG mix would definitely help, if your running a water feature mKe sure you can access it readily, for me this is a false wall in an 18x18x24 exo, more to come, and I. No expert but have went through the "cycling" of fish tanks often and imagine its a similar bio process, with my tanks, fish lizard and now frog I insist on getting everything right BEFORE putting animals into it! Are you using springtails and isopods? unless you post pics of your setup and specs nobody can truly help you, if your new look on the help topics forums, i have multiple tanks and no frogs, would rather make sure the tanks are perfect now and succeed later with frogs, my trial tanks will help me establish a larger tank down the road, go big or go home, but make sure you do it right the first time! and my other tanks will serve as quarantines and supplemental tanks lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The charcoal in the substrate will only remove the smell for a relatively brief period of time (and virtually not at all if the substrate is saturated) before becoming saturated with various organics. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

That would remove the symptoms but not treat the underlying problem here.


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