# thumbs vs regular



## Guest (Feb 18, 2004)

Did anyone else noticed that no one really wants the regular darts anymore? I guess everyone want to go with thumbnails. I wonder what will happen to the hobby in a year, because i was just on patrick's website and he is selling intermeidus for $125. Those guys used to go for $75 a few months ago. 

Just thinking outloud so i can make a post on this forum Dont pay any attention to me :?


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

The Hobby goes in waves as I understand it, new and rare things are popular, while the prolific become to common and "blahzay" (sp?). I love the thumbs because of their breeding behavior and they are smaller so I can keep more of them in my limited apartment space. I know that I am still really into "normal" darts, and I am also really interested in the Epipedobates species and those aren't very popular. With all the potential imports and recent success with the thumbs, I wouldn't be too surprised to see their prices drop in a year or two... and if no one is working with the "normal" frogs, then the few that are will have a huge demand and make a lot of money  lol.

I haven't seen intermedius for $75... even a few months ago, maybe for $100. The pumilio prices have gone up, but it is the good old rules of supply and demand.


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## MarkJ (Feb 15, 2004)

I do have craving for blue jeans pumilio but right now other than that there are so many regular frogs I want. But thats me haha yeah I do remember even 2 years ago when more people didn't want vents and such and they were cheap but yeah. I wouldn't mind any thumbs though!


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2004)

that is true tho. I like thumbs mainly because i can fit more vert tanks in my place then regular tanks. I also like small animals to me its just amazing how they live. I think that was the main reason i went into darts. I saw them at a pet store and it was amazing to see these beauitful little frogs jumping around. Kinda like your first love  , well not really but you get the point. 

Anyone remember their first time seeing darts?


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2004)

Jaso said:


> Anyone remember their first time seeing darts?


Hell Yes!!! First darts, not pictures in a book, that I got to see where Brent's and Greg's. Both of them keep some dart up at K-state. After looking at Blue-Jeans, Fants, Imitator, and retics, I followed Brent to his house and then added Bicolor, G/B auratus, Vittatus, and Vents, to the list. From there the rest is history!
Now I do like the thumbnails and Egg feeders, but 2 years ago I sold my breeding trio of g/b auratus and was very sad the next week. It seemed like I was missing SO MUCH, had to get more after about 2 months couldn't stand it anymore. The darts do go in waves, retics used to be common and ran $50, but now look, people are going crazy from them and the price is $150 if you can get them.

Benjamin


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## AlexanderStubbs (Feb 18, 2004)

Hi,

There are still people selling quinq group frogs at reasonable prices. It is only the more commercial establishments that charge such a large amount of money. The people who charge more are just more visible to people who cannot find the frogs elsewhere. This is why they can charge such a high price. If you talk to hobbyist, not commercial breeders, then the prices go down quite a bit. At some of the Washington State Dendrobatid Group meetings frogs are about two thirds of their “market” value. I am not saying that commercial establishments are bad, but the prices are market driven. People will pay that much money, and wait on a six month list so the breeders can charge it.

Alexander


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*price issues*

I know that we try to keep consistant pricing on our frogs. We do not have huge price swings on them and usually sell them plus or minus $5 depending apon how many we have of them. 

I think most of the private breeders do have a more consistant price.

Melis


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

The thumbnail frogs are much harder to breed and raise to adults than the tinctorius, leucs, auratus, etc... The froglets are very small and often food other than fruitflies is needed, you can't (or shouldn't) send them home with people until they're half grown and thriving, and frankly they produce in smaller numbers than the above mentioned types. 

Reticulatus are one of the hardest frogs to breed and raise to adults. The reason they used to be cheap is because they came in in great numbers wild caught, and when that stopped the few people breeding them felt weird charging very high prices for a "cheap" frog. However, they only lay 2-3 eggs at a time, the froglets are very prone to spindly and morph out very small, so they should be a 150.00 frog.

Christina


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Prices are crazy for some, I think its a matter of contacts. I am hoping to meet some people at IAD, I really want to start getting some more thumbs, but they are so hard to find.



Jaso said:


> Did anyone else noticed that no one really wants the regular darts anymore? I guess everyone want to go with thumbnails. I wonder what will happen to the hobby in a year, because i was just on patrick's website and he is selling intermeidus for $125. Those guys used to go for $75 a few months ago.
> 
> Just thinking outloud so i can make a post on this forum Dont pay any attention to me :?


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2004)

I can say in my experiance raising g/b auratus and imitators that I can get a clutch of auratus eggs of up to 12 from my female and the most I have gotten from my imitators is 2.So that justifys why they cost so much more and you have to wait.I have fed my newly morphed out imitator froglets just melanogasters and they have grown fine.
What I do is keep a few of my fruit fly cultures that are getting old around.They seem to produce smaller flies.
I have had alot of enjoyment watching all my frogs and hearing their calls so that is one way I judge on the species I keep.
Hearing my Bicolors or my Vittatus calling is so cool.Even my male auratus's call is nice if you get close and my son's stereo is'nt cranked.
Hearing Korn and my auratus isn't going to happen,LOL
Mark W.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

I understand about low reproduction rates and fighting spindly leg, etc. etc. However, I must say that $150 per frog is really a substantial amount of money for any animal. For crying out loud, my AKC registered Great Dane cost $100!

Don't misunderstand me, I am sensitive to the fact that breeders put a substantial amount of work into taking frogs from WC status to establishing CB lines. Breeders have to recoup costs from the inevitable losses that will ensue in establishing these lines, plus the time costs. 

However, I'm trying to be realistic . . . after a few generations of CB are established, there will be lines that emerge which reproduce with more regularity and greater proliferation. Not to mention the fact that most thumbs grow at a rather rapid rate and can still eat springtails upon morphing (not that difficult to culture).

In other hobbies, WC specimens sell for far greater prices and the CB individuals a few generations later begin to sell for far lower prices. It's interesting how this works differently in this hobby. I think it's largely due to the somewhat small reproductive rate of some of these frogs, the culture of the frog hobby, and the obvious fact that a good portion of the buyers of the CB offspring are acting more like collectors than breeders. 

Just some insights and opinions, but I can definitely understand Christina's emotion when she is constantly juggling little tads, eggs, and froglets and constantly worrying if her frogs are going to regularly produce (or if the breeding stock will mysteriously take a turn for the worse).


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

Yes, 150.00 is a lot for a frog, I mentioned the retics because I think that's one of the few that are worth it. I think the pumilio can command that kind of price because the amount of work, plants, lighting and time is so great. Most of our house/electricity bill is devoted to frog keeping, so sometimes I question Todd as to why we don't charge more.... 

We've spent soooo much on frogs that came in from importations from Europe, that it's hard to be too sympathetic when these frogs are available in America from American breeders (what I mean is that frogs that have to go through importation get highly stressed and often die, nothing against European frogs or breeders). We've payed thousands of dollars and ended up with 2 or 3 animals, where now if you buy 4 frogs for 600.00, you probably will have 4 frogs 6 months from now, especially if you buy from a reputable person.

I do hear you though, but I do want to stress that breeding frogs is not a big money making propostion.

Christina


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2004)

I was talking to a guy awhile back that has been in this hobby for awhile and he was telling me about when people first started breeding mint terribilis.He told me that the first year they were availiable at IAD they were ,if I remember right,close to $200.00 and people were buying them like crazy.He didn't buy any and after a few years they were going for about $50.00.Just thought I'd share that with you all.
Mark W.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Law of supply & demand!!!*

Christina,

It is awesome to have your input on this forum! 

I have heard some of the horror stories about shipments from overseas; the high prices, and high mortality rate. The LAW of supply & demand is one that will never change. Prices will also change depending apon what is considered 'hot'. 

Homer - if breeders such as Christina & Todd continue to be successful, more of the harder to breed frogs will make it into the hobby. As they do, the law of supply & demand take over and we will get lower prices. How many people do you think would consider you and I crazy for spending that much money at Hoosier Orchid for that awesome jewel orchid?

Later,

Melis


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2004)

ok first off homer is crazy  second i perfer linkin park over korn any day of the week. 

The law of supply and demand will always regulate the price of frogs. I know that some of our most common frogs sell for crazy amount of prices in europe just because its not common over there. Ive also heard of histrionicus selling for $400 a piece here in the US. Now, i dont know if they are legal or not, but that was between the breeder and seller. 

I am happy that there are people around like christina bringing in the rare species from europe just so we can have them in our hobby. So good job there christina. Its nice to see that a lot of people are selling thumbnails now thought.


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## AlexanderStubbs (Feb 18, 2004)

I think that breeders are justified in charging what they can get for frogs. The people who are breeding the thumbnails in numbers right now have put out hundreds, just the past few years. Yet, amazingly it seems that there are still just a handful of people producing them. It seems fair (in the case of reticulatus) that those who held onto a frog for it’s beauty, not value, should be able to reap the benefits later on. When they bought the frogs as wild caught animals there was little possibility of financial gain because they were "common." I think that it is good that those who held onto the retics (and kept them in the hobby) are able to cut their losses and distribute them to other hobbyists at some financial gain (or at least break even). If more people began to breed these frogs the price would invariably fall, but it seems to fall to the same few people to keep these frogs in the hobby. I think that we would all agree that more people should have kept the blue jeans pumilio that were once common, yet now it seems that no one can obtain them.

I also do not think that saying “most thumbs grow at a rather rapid rate” is a particularly valid point to justify dropping the price. Breeders hold back their frogs (thumbnails) for months before selling them. I just purchased a fairly large number of frogs from Todd and Christina and I believe that the youngest were around two months out of the water, I am sure they could have been sold after two weeks, to someone who was in a position to pay far more than me. In my opinion it seems a little weird that we are complaining about the price of frogs when there are so many people just waiting to pay it, and in many cases complaining about how long they must wait, so I think that breeders could charge much more without even having to advertise.

Alexander


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*good points*

Alexander,

You make some good points. Not every breeder likes to hold onto the frogs that long. I have a friend who's requirement for selling frogs is that they are eating. 

We prefer to hold onto ours for 2 months or so before selling them.

Melis


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

I hope I wasn't misunderstood in my earlier post. It's not that I don't think that some of those frogs are worth the money, as I do understand supply and demand . . . and I am willing to pay good money for quality animals that I "just can't live without." It's paying those prices that ensures that serious breeders will continue to make the investment in establishing CB lines in the hobby.

The better part of my post was really to point out that the prices of WC frogs are very low comparative to the prices of some species of Killies or other imported animals (that's in an average dollar per animal WC to CB price compared over the respective hobbies). Additionally, those prices tend to stay higher for a longer period of time. I did not mean to insinuate that breeders are making a killing in this hobby--they simply aren't.

From the above observations, we can assume some things driving the price: 1) lower reproductive rates in frogs than their fish analogs; 2) higher demand by other hobbyists; 3) lower success rates from the average hobbyist. The culture of frogging is somewhat intriguing, as many hobbyists have frogs that are for display/watching only, while hobbyists in other animal groups love the display of their animals but would not think of buying unless there is a chance of future breeding. If more people were successful in breeding these frogs as hobbyists, the numbers would definitely go up, even if comparative reproductive rates are lower in individual frogs.

My main point was that the average hobbyist is really not having a good deal of success with these animals, or else the prices would have to drop. That indicates to me that a number of people paying the high prices for frogs are perhaps buying beyond their skill set, or are disinterested in breeding and raising future lines. That's not necessarily bad, but it does keep the prices high for everyone, and poses some risk to those frog lines in the hobby. If, for some reason, a particular breeder out of a handful loses a large chunk of their population of a species due to disease or just by getting out of the hobby, there is an increased chance that a species could be lost to the hobby, or that at least one gene pool is severely crippled. That's why I opted to forgo a chance to buy some pumilio for cheap last year . . . I thought a more experienced hobbyist should take them rather than myself.

Sorry to ramble. I was really just thinking about the comparative prices of different frogs and what that said about the culture of our hobby and the seriousness with which we take it. I just thought it would stimulate some thought and coversation . . . I wasn't trying to make any digs at breeders or other hobbyists, just point out some things as I observed them.

Yes, I am crazy, I'll admit it! :lol: However, I like to think there is some method in my madness and that there is the occasional pearl in the drivel I write. :wink: For those of you still reading, thanks for sticking with me. :roll:


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*a good point about the pumilio*

Homer - that is a really good point about you passing up the pumilio in order to let a more advanced hobbist have a chance. I know that Sarah & I have done the same thing.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: a good point about the pumilio*

I have only recently felt secure enough in my frog husbandry practices to start working with frogs that are more rare.

I strongly feel that folks should work with more available frogs until such time as they "get it".

Please do not misunderstand me. This isn't about beginners or long time vets or anything in that regard.

It's about people who really know how to take car of their animals through thick and thin.

It's not easy.

s



melissa68 said:


> Homer - that is a really good point about you passing up the pumilio in order to let a more advanced hobbist have a chance. I know that Sarah & I have done the same thing.


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