# New to dart frogs!



## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm new to posion dart frogs, but I'm not new to keeping amphibians, reptiles, fish, et cetera. I've been doing some research on keeping these frogs, and I have to say that they seem like they would be a pleasure to keep.

I fell in love with this frog and I would absolutely love to have at least one, if not two of these. Apparently, it's a Tinctorius black and white morph that I have not been able to find for sale anywhere online. Here's a photo -










I have a very nice 15 gallon tank just waiting for two frogs.


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## Roots (Mar 7, 2008)

ZeeZ said:


> I'm new to posion dart frogs, but I'm not new to keeping amphibians, reptiles, fish, et cetera. I've been doing some research on keeping these frogs, and I have to say that they seem like they would be a pleasure to keep.
> 
> I fell in love with this frog and I would absolutely love to have at least one, if not two of these. Apparently, it's a Tinctorius black and white morph that I have not been able to find for sale anywhere online. Here's a photo -
> 
> ...


It is Dendrobates Tinctorius "Powder Blue"


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## Zoomie (Jul 3, 2011)

They are way better looking in person. A number of our members and sponsors here breed them here and they are stunning !


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Powder "grey" morph. Powder "Blue"s have blue some coloration to their legs.


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

Quick responses here! Much quicker than most boards I'm on.

Does anyone on here sell this grey morph? Also, would a 15 gallon be enough for three?


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## Roots (Mar 7, 2008)

mordoria said:


> Powder "grey" morph. Powder "Blue"s have blue some coloration to their legs.


Yes, you could call them "Powder Grey" but they are not recognized as a seperate color morph - blue and grey legs occur in the same population.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

ZeeZ said:


> Quick responses here! Much quicker than most boards I'm on.
> 
> Does anyone on here sell this grey morph? Also, would a 15 gallon be enough for three?


15 is a little small for a trio. A 20 long would be good. A 40 breeder would be even better. It's important to know that female tincs can be extremely aggressive. If you start with froglets, you need to be prepared to separate if you end up with more than one female.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Its a fun an addicting hobby. How are you setting up your tank? I think a 15 is good for your 1st viv. A 40B is a little to big for a beginner to me depending how you are setting it up. However you can get a 40B from petco for $50.


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

JasonE said:


> 15 is a little small for a trio. A 20 long would be good. A 40 breeder would be even better. It's important to know that female tincs can be extremely aggressive. If you start with froglets, you need to be prepared to separate if you end up with more than one female.


I'm okay with just one or two. I was only wondering. I have a 40 breeder, but it's going to be a community aquarium for several fairly rare fish species. I also have a 20 long, but again, that will be for my Blue Crayfish. I have two 20 high gallon tanks, one is for Japanese Fire Belly Newts with several uncommon Danio and Rasbora fish, and the other is my Red Cherry Shrimp and Oto fish tank. I have two 10 gallon tanks, one is a divided male Betta tank, and the other is a Leopard Gecko tank. So I do keep a wide variety of animals.

Is there a way to tell if the tinc is a male or a female? 



B-NICE said:


> Its a fun an addicting hobby. How are you setting up your tank? I think a 15 is good for your 1st viv. A 40B is a little to big for a beginner to me depending how you are setting it up. However you can get a 40B from petco for $50.


It's actually not my first vivarium. I just have space limitations right now or otherwise I would have huge vivariums. I'm just new to dart frog keeping.

I'm going to go with black aquarium gravel as substrate with either silk plants since the shelf that this 15g will be on doesn't have room for a UV light to provide UV for real plants, just a LED strip to provide light. It will have wood caves, peat moss or sphagnum moss, etc. The top is a full glass top with plastic at the back to provide a full covering and close to 100% humidity for the frogs.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

ZeeZ said:


> I'm okay with just one or two.
> 
> Is there a way to tell if the tinc is a male or a female?


I believe the recommended space for tincs is 10G/frog. Also keep in mind that the species appreciates horizontal space much more than vertical space.

Males usually have much bigger/wider toe pads than females for most tinc morphs.

Read up =]:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/14606-dendrobates-azureus-tinctorius-novice.html
Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Dendrobates tinctorius "Powderblue"


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

ZeeZ said:


> I'm okay with just one or two. I was only wondering. I have a 40 breeder, but it's going to be a community aquarium for several fairly rare fish species. I also have a 20 long, but again, that will be for my Blue Crayfish. I have two 20 high gallon tanks, one is for Japanese Fire Belly Newts with several uncommon Danio and Rasbora fish, and the other is my Red Cherry Shrimp and Oto fish tank. I have two 10 gallon tanks, one is a divided male Betta tank, and the other is a Leopard Gecko tank. So I do keep a wide variety of animals.
> 
> Is there a way to tell if the tinc is a male or a female?


Yes there is, but not until they are close to a year old. The differences are subtle and usually hard for someone new to darts to pick out. You could save yourself any headache by just asking around for a sexed pair.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

ZeeZ said:


> I'm okay with just one or two. I was only wondering. I have a 40 breeder, but it's going to be a community aquarium for several fairly rare fish species. I also have a 20 long, but again, that will be for my Blue Crayfish. I have two 20 high gallon tanks, one is for Japanese Fire Belly Newts with several uncommon Danio and Rasbora fish, and the other is my Red Cherry Shrimp and Oto fish tank. I have two 10 gallon tanks, one is a divided male Betta tank, and the other is a Leopard Gecko tank. So I do keep a wide variety of animals.
> 
> Is there a way to tell if the tinc is a male or a female?
> 
> ...


First off, a just gravel substrate is irritating and could cause stress. You need either the ABG mix (check out joshs frogs or NEherp), Leaf litter over that, and a hydroton or egg crate false bottom to collect water. Also darts need almost 100% humidity, so gravel is not an option. ALSO, silk plants aren't helping you too much with humidity either. You need live plants if you want to give your frogs a natural habitat. Plant's don't need UV light either. Just a regular CFL or strip light, and better yet LEDS are fine for the plants, and frogs don't need UVB, and I don't think they benefit from UVB.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Neontra said:


> Also darts need almost 100% humidity


Sorry, but this is not the case. I cycle my frogs down in the winter months and the humidity drops as low as 65-70%. There is water available in case I cross the line.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

frogfreak said:


> Sorry, but this is not the case. I cycle my frogs down in the winter months and the humidity drops as low as 65-70%. There is water available in case I cross the line.


I know, but I like to keep mine at high humidy, so if there is a problem, the humidty wouldn't be my first concern, and I don't like the dry look of a viv. Really, you can keep darts at 70% + Humidity, but I would get worried if it got too low.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't want to appear as I'm being rude, but reducing humidity and food intake generally stops/slows the frogs from breeding, which is a very important part of husbandry. Breeding takes a lot out of the frogs and a rest period is needed. I'd like to see my frogs year round and have a wet looking viv, but they need to chill at some point.

Best


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

frogfreak said:


> I don't want to appear as I'm being rude, but reducing humidity and food intake generally stops/slows the frogs from breeding, which is a very important part of husbandry. Breeding takes a lot out of the frogs and a rest period is needed. I'd like to see my frogs year round and have a wet looking viv, but they need to chill at some point.
> 
> Best


That is interesting, thank you for telling me. I might do that when and if winter comes lol....


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

hypostatic said:


> I believe the recommended space for tincs is 10G/frog. Also keep in mind that the species appreciates horizontal space much more than vertical space.
> 
> Males usually have much bigger/wider toe pads than females for most tinc morphs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the additional information! Would there be any different species that would be okay with a single tinc in the 15 gallon? 



Neontra said:


> First off, a just gravel substrate is irritating and could cause stress. You need either the ABG mix (check out joshs frogs or NEherp), Leaf litter over that, and a hydroton or egg crate false bottom to collect water. Also darts need almost 100% humidity, so gravel is not an option. ALSO, silk plants aren't helping you too much with humidity either. You need live plants if you want to give your frogs a natural habitat. Plant's don't need UV light either. Just a regular CFL or strip light, and better yet LEDS are fine for the plants, and frogs don't need UVB, and I don't think they benefit from UVB.


In that case, then that's what I'll do. I actually prefer live plants to silk/fake plants, they're just more appealing as well as natural. I was going off this site for the substrate -

Poison Dart Frog Care Sheet



> Poison dart frogs do well on many types of substrate. Several soil mix recipes exist, but my personal experience leads me to the conclusion that a nonorganic substrate is ideal in the wet conditions of a poison dart frog terrarium. Organic substrates rot or sour fairly quickly, and this can cause the tank to take on a swampy smell and begin to culture fungus gnats. One of the worst substrates in this regard is ground coconut husk, which rots in a matter of months.
> 
> My breeding facility has been using one-eighth-inch natural aquarium gravel in tanks for many years. This substrate looks natural when the tank is decorated with plants, dried leaves, cork-bark hide spots and patches of moss.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

ZeeZ said:


> Thanks for the additional information! Would there be any different species that would be okay with a single tinc in the 15 gallon?


The general consensus is that you should not mix different species of dart frogs in a small vivarium, as this causes stress to the animals which might lead to the loss of an animal (which is not ideal). This is especially true with tincs, as they are very territorial, which is why they have such a big space requirement to be happy. _D. leucomelas_ is a better "group frog", and I think you would be able to put 2 in your tank.
Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Dendrobates leucomelas



ZeeZ said:


> In that case, then that's what I'll do. I actually prefer live plants to silk/fake plants, they're just more appealing as well as natural. I was going off this site for the substrate -
> 
> Poison Dart Frog Care Sheet


A planted vivarium creates a more natural environment for your frogs, and if you have sufficient vegetation/hiding spots your frogs will feel a lot more safe, so they'll come out more and you'll be able to see them more.
In order to combat mold most people employ microfauna in their vivs in the form of isopods and springtails, which eat mold. They also make tasty snacks for the frogs.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Gravel, still, is'nt ideal. Search up "ABG" . It takes years to break down, plants go wild in it, and it drains just as well as gravel. For a 15 gallon, 2 gallons of hydroton should go on the very bottom, then a screen separator, then 2 gallons of the ABG mix. That website, in my opinion, doesn't have the best information. Commercially available substrates like "Eco earth" and stuff like that do not drain, and just become water logged. the ABG goes like this
1 part peat (Either chunky, fine, etc. Chunky I think is best)
1 part spagnum moss
1 part horticulture grade charcoal, fine/medium or aquarium charcoal
2 parts tree fern fiber, course
2 parts fine/course orchid bark

From others experience, I've never heard a case of it breaking down yet, and I know that Pumilo's son, Frogboy has had it in a salamander viv for years and it's in near-perfect condition.


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

hypostatic said:


> The general consensus is that you should not mix different species of dart frogs in a small vivarium, as this causes stress to the animals which might lead to the loss of an animal (which is not ideal). This is especially true with tincs, as they are very territorial, which is why they have such a big space requirement to be happy. _D. leucomelas_ is a better "group frog", and I think you would be able to put 2 in your tank.
> Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Dendrobates leucomelas
> 
> 
> ...


Any other recommended species? Otherwise, just one "gray" morph of the powerblue tinc is fine with me. I finally went to the local reptile expo in Raleigh, NC and saw some dart frogs in person. I didn't realize that dart frogs were this tiny! Granted, most looked like froglets, but I got a better understanding of the vivariums that they live in just by looking at the display cases they had at the expo. How would I go about acquiring the isopods and springtails?



Neontra said:


> Gravel, still, is'nt ideal. Search up "ABG" . It takes years to break down, plants go wild in it, and it drains just as well as gravel. For a 15 gallon, 2 gallons of hydroton should go on the very bottom, then a screen separator, then 2 gallons of the ABG mix. That website, in my opinion, doesn't have the best information. Commercially available substrates like "Eco earth" and stuff like that do not drain, and just become water logged. the ABG goes like this
> 1 part peat (Either chunky, fine, etc. Chunky I think is best)
> 1 part spagnum moss
> 1 part horticulture grade charcoal, fine/medium or aquarium charcoal
> ...


I recently acquired two Fat Tailed Geckos and Eco earth for them. However, their Eco earth needs to be dry, which isn't the case with dart frogs. So I'm going to go with the ABG, which is what those of you who are clearly more experienced than I at keeping these frogs use. What exactly is a hydroton? Egg crate like they use for flourscent lighting? I also saw a fogger for sale at the Reptile Expo, but I could not see anything in the tank, so I'll just stick with misting the vivarium.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

ZeeZ said:


> Any other recommended species? Otherwise, just one "gray" morph of the powerblue tinc is fine with me. I finally went to the local reptile expo in Raleigh, NC and saw some dart frogs in person. I didn't realize that dart frogs were this tiny! Granted, most looked like froglets, but I got a better understanding of the vivariums that they live in just by looking at the display cases they had at the expo. How would I go about acquiring the isopods and springtails?
> 
> 
> 
> I recently acquired two Fat Tailed Geckos and Eco earth for them. However, their Eco earth needs to be dry, which isn't the case with dart frogs. So I'm going to go with the ABG, which is what those of you who are clearly more experienced than I at keeping these frogs use. What exactly is a hydroton? Egg crate like they use for flourscent lighting? I also saw a fogger for sale at the Reptile Expo, but I could not see anything in the tank, so I'll just stick with misting the vivarium.


Eco earth, i've senn, can easily become water logged even worse than peat moss can. I'm loving my ABG mix, it has that natural feel too it. I think I added too much cypress bark, but eh, who cares, right? Hydroton os an expanded clay pellet used in hydroponics. It absorbs water somewhat, and as for eggcrate, the stuff you use for lighting is what you want. i prefer hydroton because it's really easy to use. Just dump and your done! Foggers are just fine, but don't have the affect misters do. Fog will raise the humidity for a while, but really doesn't water your plants or keep things moist.


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

Just a very quick comment...

Obviously more space per frog is ideal. But I have to say... I know many dart frog breeders that have very successfully bred tincs (and even histos) in 10 gallon tanks. As long as the tank is well planted, lots of pothos and things of that nature, a small tank like a 10 gallon is adequate. I dont see anything wrong with a pair of adult tincs in a 10. If you have the space and can give them more well then of course thats much better!!

By the way... WELCOME!!! It's great to see, hear and talk to new people in the hobby. Be careful!! It's addicting lol. One minute you have a pair of tincs next thing you know you have bakers racks in your spare bedroom and looking for space to put the third!!

This is a great community with a lot of very knowledgeable and helpful members!! Good luck with everything!!


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

Neontra said:


> Eco earth, i've senn, can easily become water logged even worse than peat moss can. I'm loving my ABG mix, it has that natural feel too it. I think I added too much cypress bark, but eh, who cares, right? Hydroton os an expanded clay pellet used in hydroponics. It absorbs water somewhat, and as for eggcrate, the stuff you use for lighting is what you want. i prefer hydroton because it's really easy to use. Just dump and your done! Foggers are just fine, but don't have the affect misters do. Fog will raise the humidity for a while, but really doesn't water your plants or keep things moist.


I read somewhere that Hydroton is available at most hardware or lawn stores, is this right? That reminds me, does the water that I use to mist the frogs have to be dechlorinated?



Feelin Froggy said:


> Just a very quick comment...
> 
> Obviously more space per frog is ideal. But I have to say... I know many dart frog breeders that have very successfully bred tincs (and even histos) in 10 gallon tanks. As long as the tank is well planted, lots of pothos and things of that nature, a small tank like a 10 gallon is adequate. I dont see anything wrong with a pair of adult tincs in a 10. If you have the space and can give them more well then of course thats much better!!
> 
> ...


Really? Now I don't feel so guilty about wanting a pair of tincs in a 15 gallon if breeders are breeding them in 10 gallons. They're much, MUCH smaller than my pair of Fat Tailed Geckos, which are in a 10 gallon. I fully intend on having the dart frog tank planted with plenty of plants. All of my aquatic tanks are or will be planted with the single exception of the Blue Crayfish tank, but only because the Crayfish will destroy plants.

Trust me, I know it's addicting! I'm sure my three roommates think I'm absolutely insane for having not one, not two, but SEVEN tanks. I'm about to add an eighth, but that one will be in the outside storage room as I'll be breeding crickets, mealworms, etc, in it so pinheads will be available for the dart frogs as well as 2/3-adult crickets for the two geckos. I'm sure the fish will also appreciate pinhead crickets as an occasional treat.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

ZeeZ said:


> I read somewhere that Hydroton is available at most hardware or lawn stores, is this right? That reminds me, does the water that I use to mist the frogs have to be dechlorinated?
> I'm about to add an eighth, but that one will be in the outside storage room as I'll be breeding crickets, mealworms, etc, in it so pinheads will be available for the dart frogs as well as 2/3-adult crickets for the two geckos. I'm sure the fish will also appreciate pinhead crickets as an occasional treat.


Hydroton can be a little hard to find. Try searching for hydroponics stores in your area (though some nicer nurseries may carry it). 

Yes it needs to be dechlorinated. Some people use treated tap water, others use reverse-osmosis, some use bottled spring water, and others use bottled distilled water...the list goes on. I use bottled distilled water and it works great for me. 

Have you ever tried to breed crickets before? Most people give up because it smells nasty. If you set up 2 propogation tanks and switch every now and then you may be able to combat the smell. Fruit flies would be a much better (and less stinky) choice.

You can make a simple substrate using sphag/coco/orchid bark as substrate and it will be fine, especially if you have a deep enough false-bottom. It may not last as long as ABG, but it will work. Adding shredded leaves makes it much better.


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

fieldnstream said:


> Hydroton can be a little hard to find. Try searching for hydroponics stores in your area (though some nicer nurseries may carry it).
> 
> Yes it needs to be dechlorinated. Some people use treated tap water, others use reverse-osmosis, some use bottled spring water, and others use bottled distilled water...the list goes on. I use bottled distilled water and it works great for me.
> 
> ...


Dechlorinating isn't a big deal since I already use it for my fish tanks. I assume it's the exact same thing you guys use for dechlorinating your dart frogs' water. 

No, I haven't tried breeding crickets yet, but that's another reason why it will be in the outside storage room. I don't think my roommates would exactly appreciate escaped insects running around the house. I read that there are methods on cutting down the smell with breeding crickets, but having two tanks would be better as well, there's certainly room for two in the storage room. I've already purchased 1,000 crickets from the reptile expo. I'll add wingless fruit flies to the list of breeding insects, as I always prefer to offer variety to my animals. 

Thanks for reminding me about the leaves. Recently I was at my mother's house and there are already a TON of fallen leaves on the ground there, not much here in the city at my house. How would I go about preparing them for use in the tank? I want less maintenance since I have so many tanks, so I'll go with ABG for the substrate.


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

Your roomates must LOVE you lol!!


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

There are many ways to prepare the leaves. Here is what I do:

1. Collect leaves from an area that you know to be free of fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, etc...(remember that wind/water can carry these)
2. Soak the leaves in a 10% bleach solution for 30 mins.
3. Rinse the leaves very well (this is important).
4. Put the damp leaves in the oven at 260F for 30 mins.

For mixing into substrate I use maple and oak. For leaf-litter (the top layer) I use magnolia and live oak. Other people use different types of leaves for both applications, this is just what works for me.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

a few things to mention...

gravel is perfectly fine as a base substrate layer. MOST of my 30 or so tanks have gravel drainage layers. hydroton and false bottom designs are NOT the only way to go, but they may have some advantages (mainly weight).

having a viv that is kept too wet, is not good as it creates an environment more conducive to the production of potentially harmful bacteria for example.

while it is possible to feed darts food items other than fruit flies, as a staple, none compare to the of the flies. they are a necessity IMO.

james


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

When I got my first darts frogs, I tried to avoid the fruit flies and go with crickets. It took me about a week before I realized it wasn't going to work. If you want to keep darts, you have to culture fruit flies.


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

Feelin Froggy said:


> Your roomates must LOVE you lol!!


I'm not sure what they really think. One of them is definitely interested in all of the things I keep. He enjoys observing them. The other two don't seem to really care. Oh, well.



fieldnstream said:


> There are many ways to prepare the leaves. Here is what I do:
> 
> 1. Collect leaves from an area that you know to be free of fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, etc...(remember that wind/water can carry these)
> 2. Soak the leaves in a 10% bleach solution for 30 mins.
> ...


Thanks for the instructions! There are plenty of magnolia trees around here. I think they're the local city's representative tree. Do the leaves have to be fallen ones or can they be collected live?



james67 said:


> a few things to mention...
> 
> gravel is perfectly fine as a base substrate layer. MOST of my 30 or so tanks have gravel drainage layers. hydroton and false bottom designs are NOT the only way to go, but they may have some advantages (mainly weight).
> 
> ...


The 15 gallon is already heavy as is, and I really don't want to add more weight to the wood table that's already holding a 40 gallon breeder and a 20 long tank both filled to the top with water. I know it might not be that much weight, comparing gravel to the hydroton... Do I place the hydroton on the bottom, then the lighting egg crate on top, then ABG and leaf litter on top of that? 



JasonE said:


> When I got my first darts frogs, I tried to avoid the fruit flies and go with crickets. It took me about a week before I realized it wasn't going to work. If you want to keep darts, you have to culture fruit flies.


Then I will start culturing fruit flies now. I'm still in the process of acquiring the necessary supplies to create the tank and setting it up. I just very recently bought a LED strip that also has a moon light mode. I'm also in the process of setting up three tanks and getting them ready for new inhabitants. 

So I do have time to get the cultures right before I get any dart frogs.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

ZeeZ said:


> I'm not sure what they really think. One of them is definitely interested in all of the things I keep. He enjoys observing them. The other two don't seem to really care. Oh, well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never heard of a false bottom quite like that. Usually it's done by adding the clay balls, mesh screen, substrate mix, then leaves moss or by doing all eggcrate and topping with substrate/leaves/moss, but you could certainly try it! Hydroton doesn't feel THAT much lighter than gravel, probably about half as much. I've heard the light stuff is expanded glass.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Neontra said:


> I've heard the light stuff is expanded glass.


if your talking about "egg crate", its made of a styrene based plastic

LECA (hydroton) is Lightweight Expanded Clay Aggregate and so made of clay

there is the possibility to use something like rockwool cubes somewhere in a substrate system which could be made of glass, but i havent seen it used much.

normally theres a drainage layer on the bottom, leca or gravel or bioballs etc, OR a false bottom made of "egg crate" then a divider like window screen, then substrate, then leaf litter.

james


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

Neontra said:


> Never heard of a false bottom quite like that. Usually it's done by adding the clay balls, mesh screen, substrate mix, then leaves moss or by doing all eggcrate and topping with substrate/leaves/moss, but you could certainly try it! Hydroton doesn't feel THAT much lighter than gravel, probably about half as much. I've heard the light stuff is expanded glass.


Why not? I mean, the Hydroton serves the same purpose as gravel, doesn't it? As in a means to drain. 



james67 said:


> if your talking about "egg crate", its made of a styrene based plastic
> 
> LECA (hydroton) is Lightweight Expanded Clay Aggregate and so made of clay
> 
> ...


The egg crate would hold water more than the window screen divider, is this why it hasn't been done the way I suggested?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

its not meant to hold water. its there purely to separate your DRAINAGE from your substrate.

the drainage layer should never be full of water. if water get above the drainage layer and in to the substrate, the substrate will be saturated and kill the plants.


@@@@@@@@@ leaf litter
@@@@@@@@@
XXXXXXXXXXXXX substrate
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
_______________ screen
OOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOO LECA
//////////////////// max waterline
OOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOO LECA

james


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

JasonE said:


> 15 is a little small for a trio. A 20 long would be good. A 40 breeder would be even better. It's important to know that female tincs can be extremely aggressive. If you start with froglets, you need to be prepared to separate if you end up with more than one female.


I am having this senario happening now. With a lot of help and guidance from the wonderful members here, I currently have the bully QT'd from its 20L.


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

I also believe that LECA (hydroton) not only provides a layer to supress saturating your substrate layer but also serves to balance ph and promote good bacterial growth in the viv. Which is important for plant development and microfauna growth.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

ZeeZ said:


> Why not? I mean, the Hydroton serves the same purpose as gravel, doesn't it? As in a means to drain.
> 
> 
> 
> The egg crate would hold water more than the window screen divider, is this why it hasn't been done the way I suggested?


Like james said, you don't want it full. 3/4 full max. I reason I said it hasn't been done is because you would either be wasting 12$ on a) hydroton OR b) eggcrate. Some people have though done an eggcrate false bottom and filled that with hydroton, most likely for micro fauna.


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## spoggy (Aug 10, 2011)

Hey ZeeZ!

Welcome to DB! Great group and lots of information here. Hope you stay a long time.

Steve


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

Neontra said:


> Like james said, you don't want it full. 3/4 full max. I reason I said it hasn't been done is because you would either be wasting 12$ on a) hydroton OR b) eggcrate. Some people have though done an eggcrate false bottom and filled that with hydroton, most likely for micro fauna.


How so? I wouldn't mind keeping microfauna in there. So it sounds like the window screen divider is the best bet to divide the leca from the ABG substrate.

Would a mini waterfall or something of the sort help maintain humidity and cut down on how much I have to mist daily?

Thanks for the welcome!


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

I think what they are trying to get across is that you do not need both the screen and the leca. 

Most people use one or the other. 

i.e. eggcrate and screen with nothing underneath (except drained water)

or LECA with the ABG sitting directly on it. No need for eggcrate here as there is no room for substrate to fall into it, the LECA will keep the drainage water and substrate separated. 

The over all goal is to allow excess water from misting to drain to the bottom of the tank so it can be siphoned off after it starts to build up.
You don't want the substrate sitting in the drained water. So once you notice that the drainage water is getting close to either the eggcrate or the top of your LECA layer, you siphon it off. 

If you were to use both, it would be like putting a stool on chair to sit. You can sit like that, but you really only need one or the other....

If you like the idea of the LECA aiding microfauna, then don't worry about the eggcrate..


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

ckays said:


> I think what they are trying to get across is that you do not need both the screen and the leca.
> 
> i.e. eggcrate and screen with nothing underneath (except drained water)
> 
> or LECA with the ABG sitting directly on it. No need for eggcrate here as there is no room for substrate to fall into it, the LECA will keep the drainage water and substrate separated.


Just to clarify...you *do* need screen between substrate and hydroton, so it would be hydroton, screen, then substrate. 

Zeez: essentially what everyone is trying to say is that you use either plastic eggcrate with pvc risers, *or* LECA. They both serve the same function.


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

100% of my vivs are set up exactly as James graphic above is set up. You DO want to use a piece of screen or some kind of filtration layer to keep your ABG, or whatever soli mixture you decide to use. I personally use my own mix made from ground wild collected mosses, peat moss, New Zealand sphangnum moss, and ground up leaves. Whatever you go with make sure you DO NOT put your soil mixture directly on top of the LECA (hydroton) balls. That will just lead to soil errosion and other problems you dont want!!

That said, just take a look at James graphic and thats how you should set up your layers. There are many ways to tinker in this hobby but honestly that method has worked for me and many others on here for a long time. It's self sustaining and other than the rare water change and misting there isnt much other up keep on the tank!!

One other thing. Keep a photo log. Its always fun to look back at projects you've done in the past. Wish I had pics of my first vivs. They weighed a TON (lots of gravel) Even tried melting and bending plexi to create a water fall or something LOL... Good times! 

Good luck... and for sure ask all the questions you want! Don't by shy and most of all have fun!!!


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

So do you just lay the screen on top of the LECA?

This a little counter intuitive to me.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

ckays said:


> So do you just lay the screen on top of the LECA?
> 
> This a little counter intuitive to me.


Yes you need a screen layer because you want to keep the substrate out of the hydroton. If you don't keep them apart then the hydroton is useless because there is essentially no drainage layer. The substrate particles will eventually fill in between the pieces of hydroton and form a solid layer, which fouls the substrate because airflow is greatly reduced or even eliminated. So yes you do just lay fiberglass screen, weedblock cloth, or needlepoint material (I prefer this) directly over the hydroton.


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

Fair enough. 

Not something I have come across in the seemingly thousands of threads i have been going through on tank construction. 

Thanks for the clarification.


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

Exactly... What fieldnstream said!! Lol


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification! I have plenty of needlepoint mesh things, as I use them in my aquariums for projects. I do keep a photo log, I enjoy looking back at the animals I've kept in the past.

Today I saw something called Hydro Balls by Zoo Med while I was purchasing driftwood for my 40 gallon community aquarium. Is this what you guys mean by LECA?

Zoo Med Hydro Balls

It was $7... Cheaper than what you said, $12 for the hydroton.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

same stuff, but MUCH more expensive. 

a local hydroponics store will have bags for around $1 per pound

james


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Yes, they are basically the same thing except for size/color. Some people like the hydroballs, but I don't. They are much smaller than hydroton and for some reason they always break down into clay-sludge in my tanks (maybe its the water?). $12 of hydroton=about 5+ bags of hydroballs. I think the only upside to hydroballs is the color, I really prefer the brown to the brick red of hydroton. I know at least one of the sponsors has free shipping on hydroton, so its something to check out.

looks like james beat me to it...


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

Wow, that's a big difference.


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## ZeeZ (Sep 2, 2011)

Nobody answered my question about if the leaves had to be collected already fallen and dead or if they could be collected live.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

fallen and dead

james


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Yeah I've tried browning live leaves that I collected, and I would only recommend dead/dried leaves. Make sure you clean *anything* that you'll add to the viv, or you might introduce something undesirable by accident.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

The only time I dry fresh leaves is when I want leaves to add to the substrate. Since they disintegrate more quickly when fresh-collected it works really well. But for LL using fallen leaves is a much better choice (they last much longer).


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