# Free Range Tricolor Tads



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

So I made the decision to have my tricolors tank raise their own. I'll provide the tad food and they do everything else. Que sera, sera. I'll pull froglets later on.

So far it's been a great experience! I got to watch Dad guard the eggs, load up the tads for transport, crow like a rooster when he had them them all loaded, and climb on down through hostile territory toward the pond. 

The problem is I have no idea if any tads actually made it into the pond or not and I don't want to dump in tad food if nobodys home. Dad's decent had to go throught the territories of two others, one definite male. Even though Dad is the biggest male, the others defend their spots, including the pond area. Dad and tads were chased off once before. This morning Dad had no tads on his back. 

My pond area is covered in duckweed, which I thinned out some before the eggs hatched. The water has some aquatic plants and is not clear enough to see through to the back where there is a gravel ramp that Dad likely used. 

So my newbie question is what should I do to verify the little tads made it into the pond? or Should I not worry about it and just sprinkle in the tad food? 

Thoughts?
EricG.NH


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## nyfrogs (May 1, 2005)

erick i think if their is pants and duckweed and algae you wont need to feed the tads very often if evr maybe i am wrong? it wont hurt to put some food in once in a while. as for verifing that the tads are actually in there i really dont know what to do


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

eric
you got tads! great.

the parent group yours came from raised most of their offspring in the in tank pond, and I prefer it that way. less SLS when I let them do it, although SLS is prominent with tricolors so be aware.

I dont think you need to feed them for at least a few weeks but what i would do is add some almond leaf crumble in there. they eat it and the algae that grows on it.

once they get larger you will see them at the surface and then I would start feeding them tad bites. I doubt you could pollute the water with reasonable feeding as the biological filter/bacterial load in there is substantial.

just keep the water level high and they will do great.

keep me posted.

Shawn


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## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

Drowned fruit flies, which in my experience are impossible to avoid with standing water, will also provide forage.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Eric,

Let them be for the moment or add some leaf crumble as Shawn suggests....if tads were deposited in the water you will see signs in time as tricolor tads grow very rapidly.

Good luck and congrats. I suppose I should thank my lucky stars that while I have 2.2 breeding groups they don't seem to have the same competition going that others describe....

Bill


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Well at least one tad made it. I saw him buzzing around eating stuff off a plant root in the pond.

Are Indian almond leaves better then oak? I've got a ton of oak around.

*BH wrote...*


> I suppose I should thank my lucky stars that while I have 2.2 breeding groups they don't seem to have the same competition going that others describe....


So far the comp has been a good thing. The small group dynamics are one of the most interesting things to observe and they seem to have established a pecking order and successfully defend their own spots. I was warned about tricolor territoriality and set up their viv with many hides, escapes, and levels. What threw out the balance was when I traded one of three males for a female. She's assumed the most terrestrial level where the second most dominate male hung out, and of course spends all her attention on the largest, most vocal male. She really shut him up though, now that he has more eggs to tend to. Yea that's right, I found another clutch this AM. :shock: No rest for the weary.

The next subordinate male is the one who is now out of place. He literally has been climbing the walls with all this breeding activity. I've been watching him and I think he's settled into a spot in the opposite corner from the nursery. 

While four in a 20H vert is OK, IMO, the settling out periods are longer with a smaller tank. This seems to be true anytime there is a change. 

My last/youngest is still TBD so I may end up at 2.2 afterall.

Thanks for the help,
EricG.NH


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## Kiari43 (Mar 6, 2006)

Congrats and best of luck!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Oak or wild almond will do, tho I prefer wild almond. One thing I recommend in addition to what was already mentioned is to boil the leaves. I make tadpole tea concentrate, then use the left over leaf skeletons for hungry tads. This softens up the leaves so they will be consumed much easier and sooner. This is better in ponds with tadpoles already in it, but with ponds that don't have tadpoles, letting leaves soften up over time is ok.

The leaf detritus is a better food source if you're not sure how many tads and how much they are eating as it doesn't mess up water quality too much for the uneaten bits like other foods do. In a well aged pond, you may not need to add any other food items other than the leaves, tho if more tads are deposited and you get worried, toss in some tadpole bites... but sparingly. Make sure they are eaten within an hour.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Eric,

I just wanted to say that I loved your descriptions of your frogs' behavior and interactions. It sounds like an absolutely fascinating dynamic to observe. Looking forward to hearing more about this group.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> I just wanted to say that I loved your descriptions of your frogs' behavior and interactions. It sounds like an absolutely fascinating dynamic to observe. Looking forward to hearing more about this group.


Well you asked for it...  
After the first small clutch was laid, the big male went silent and the second male started to call a lot more. He found this spot in a pocket on a huge african mask alocasia leaf. Because the leaf was so huge, it pressed almost completely flat against the top on the viv except for this small pocket. I have no idea how he got there. His calling and now "exclusive" spot was driving the female nutty. She apparently didn't drop her whole clutch and was still very round and "packin". It was fun watching her try to climb but finally made it up to a perch about six inches away from the pocket. After several preparatory wiggles she finally took the Lover's Leap........Not even close!! She probably cleared two inches and landed in the pond after dropping through some philodendron. 

She was fine and went on to drop the second clutch back with the first male on the "easier" side on the viv. I ended up trimming those big leaves.

Frankly, if I couldn't enjoy the experience of raising these animals I wouldn't do it. My space is limited but right in my family room and office. That's why I only raise species that do well groups, are bold, and have great calls. I only have to turn my head while typing this to see whats going on in most of my tanks.

EricG.NH


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

What a great story! I guess the imperative to be literally the "top guy," in terms of height, can backfire. 

When I had my 2.1 trio of intermedius, their interactions were also fascinating...the dominance interplay between the males and the female's willingness to tryst with both...

I couldn't agree more about watching these guys in detail. My frogs are in my living & dining rooms, and there are a couple of fish tanks & a bird in the kitchen. I'm just sorry the goats have to be in the barn...  

Sure can eat up the hours, though...

Any further glimpses of the tads?


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

A couple of the tads were nice enough to swim up to the front of the little pond. They've about doubled in size in five days and are about 3/8in long.










EricG.NH


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Sweet pic! They sure look right at home!


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Looks like there are 5 growing tads in my pond. They're getting big and the largest look like they'll be popping rear legs soon. They are very aggressive feeders and wipe out big pieces of flake fish food in no time. They've been in the water 4 weeks now. Pond temps are a little on the cool side. 

My little female has decided to shack up with the second tier male who has been standing watch since Sun over the lady's fourth clutch. After the first small clutch with the "top frog" made it into the pond, a second with the same male went moldy and unfertilized. Then there was a third that was fertilized but molded over as well. Fingers are crossed on this new clutch. 
I guess she decided it was time for a change, hooked up with the mid level male, and laid this latest clutch right up front where I can watch how it does. 

So here's my question:

If this latest clutch does well and the new tads are transported to the pond, is there a risk that they will be eaten by the larger/older tads already in there?

EricG.NH


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Not all that likely unless they were unhealthy in the first place. The tadpoles are already very active and ready to feed when they hit the water, and easily can swim away from other tads. The larger tads are also not heavily cannibalistic like more commonly available dendrobatids in captivity, and I've had several different sized tadpoles from different clutches in the same pond without many problems that I could tell (no nipped tails, etc).


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Eric,

I will echo Corey's experience with different sized tricolor tads in the same enclosure with no problems. Plus the only time I've seen tricolor tads feed on a fellow tad is when said tad died leaving a carcass. At that point it ceases to be a tadpole in their mind and just becomes food.

Bill


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Thanks for the help! Hopefully I'll get a good clutch of tads in the water.

Let 'em ride!!

EricG.NH


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## summitwynds (Jan 22, 2006)

Got a quick question... how long do tricolor tads stay in the water? (ie: how long does it take to morph?) I have 4 small tads, 3 larger tads and dad is carrying around 6 or 7.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

summitwynds said:


> Got a quick question... how long do tricolor tads stay in the water? (ie: how long does it take to morph?) I have 4 small tads, 3 larger tads and dad is carrying around 6 or 7.


varies I think more based on temps and diet, but IMO they are relatively quick....as short as 6-8 weeks, but I have had some go 3 months in colder weather....

those my babies breeding for you already :shock: fantastic.

S


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## summitwynds (Jan 22, 2006)

Yes, those are from the tri's I got from you. Didnt take long did it? I have a short video (Quicktime) here: http://web.mac.com/summitwynds/iWeb/sites/tadpoles.html

I will be adding to the video in the morning --- 

Just this evening I got one of the dads carrying around some tads and he proceeded to put some of them in the pond. And I got the whole thing on tape!! It was way too cool.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I had seven total go into the water from my first clutch. All five of the next large clutches all went bad. I'm going to try fresh suppliments even though mine still have a year left.

The 6-8 weeks is what I saw as well. Two of the strongest morphed in 6 and are beebopping around the viv just fine. The other five have been slower with two of those five coming out with SLS. The last ones are closer to 10 weeks now. My tank temps are on the cool side these days. 

While I'm still in favor of the free range approach it does have it's drawbacks. A morphed froglet with SLS can still hop around pretty good and can be a pain to catch in a planted viv. I'm going to reconsider a modified approach something along Aaron's(frogfarm), which still emphasises that the stronger will survive. I view this as very important to the hobby.

EricG.NH


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## summitwynds (Jan 22, 2006)

http://www.summitwynds.com/frogs/tadpoles2.mov

Got over 30 minutes of video edited down to about 4 minutes. Its too bad it has to be so small for the web as the details are amazing. You can see the tads wriggling on his back. He dropped 3 of them (there's 7) into the water on this trip.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Eric - two things jumped out at me in your post... 

You said your supplements still have a year left... were you talking the best used by date? The rule with supplements is to write down what month you opened them... and toss them after six months. At that point vitamins have started to break down and/or oxidized, stuff along those lines, and its use to you has degraded.

My other thing is what you mean by Aaron's approach? Aaron has a couple approaches... depends on what species or situation you are talking about. Raising the tads in tank is an example of the stronger will survive... they have limited space and food and need to compete over it. 

Try pulling the tads just before they pop legs, when the elbows are clearly showing and the hind legs are pulled up in a frog resting position. Depending on how your tank is set up you might still have a froglet or two hiding out, but you'll have less of them. I'm puzzled by the "SLS can still hop around pretty good" comment - SLS froglets often couldn't hold their own bodies up, much less hop around with enough coordination to be a pain.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Corey,

I've seen a few cases of SLS with SIs where the froglet was still pretty mobile, albeit sort of scooting along pushing itself with its hind legs while the head was plowing into the ground. Somewhat weird looking and not like other cases of SLS where the froglet to your point has problems with moving period.

Bill


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I may very well have had some of these cases, and not known it, but I had very little in the way of SLS in my anthonyi. Either way, if they morphed out in the parent tank or morphed out in the froglet tank, siblings or parents would have made short work of them..


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> You said your supplements still have a year left... were you talking the best used by date?...


My Herptvite has an expiration date of Feb 2008 but I've had it and my ReptoCal for about a year. Didn't know about the 6 month recommendation. New vits are on the way. 

I liked Aaron's latest approach he posted a few weeks ago. He has a communal container with several couple inch high pvc tubes, one for each tad. If the tad develops strong front legs, it's able to climb up out of the tube. In my setup the edge of the pond is a gravel ramp. All of the morphs, with or without SLS are able to get up out of the water. Those with SLS still have strong rear legs and can hop away pretty well. I've caught and euth-ed three of the SLS froglets with a long coffee ground scoop, by coaxing them to jump into it. My pond also has some ficus around it for cover. Way too much work IMO.



> Either way, if they morphed out in the parent tank or morphed out in the froglet tank, siblings or parents would have made short work of them..


I haven't noticed any disappearing acts, yet. As they started coming out of the water, all of the adults were down at the pond checking them out. It was my understanding the adults don't consider them "threats" while they're still young and small. What kind of behavior can I expect with the adults and the SLS froglets? 

EricG.NH

P.S> I euth-ed the SLS froglets with a 5% ethanol swim, followed by a 50%. It seems to work OK. I wanted to preserve some of the SLS and the oragel I had, made the ethanol cloudy. I tried to get some formalin at my local vets and they either don't have enough or won't give it up directly. Is the ethanol bath still an acceptable method and can anyone recommend another route for a small qty of formalin?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

That's the set up I thought you were referring to... it's great for D. tinctorius groups who deposit tads one per water body, but not good for frogs that deposit their tads together, those that have communal tad communities (Allobates, Epipedobates, Phyllobates for example). In the case of these frogs, you might have the problem of the tadpoles not being deposited because the body of water isn't big enough. I love Aaron's set up for tincs, but its not appropriate for other species groups... which is why he only uses it for members of that species group.

For an equivalent, try morphing your tads in a gladware container or similar. Often the froglets will climb right up out of the containers... but beware that there is also a stronger likelihood of drowning... usually if the container has corners they will climb up the corners and out... SLS froglets in theory wouldn't be able to do this... I've never euthanized any froglets or tadpoles... with froglets raised together in a tank there is heavy competition for food many times and that's usually what does the less strong frogs in... Mind you I probably keep my froglets at a higher density than many, so it really does become each frog for itself, which is also why I have to be careful about size... a frog significantly larger would decimate the tank... 

The adults don't recognize them as threats in their mature world... and by that it basically means they are not breeding competition. They are moving objects that could possibly be food, and thus are explored, but generally are too large, so its more something to check out type deal. SLS froglets have even less of a chance against adults for food than with froglets their size... easily shoved out of the way if they aren't scared off.


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