# Lost two Luecs



## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

Well, I'm a newb both to this site and to the hobby and you can imagine my sadness and disappointment in myself when I thought I was doing good and not to much more then one month after I got them one of them dies and then the second one followed a week later. I got my whole setup from black jungle, it's a small Eco-terra; heat stays at about 74 during the day and around 68 at night and a humidity that never seems to get above 70%. I used distilled water for spraying and for watering the substrate; I used bottled water for the dish but after the first one died I switched to useing pond water for everything for lack of better idea and it seemed there was no straight consenus among the boardmembers. I fed them daily with FFs and dusted with rep-cal and dendrocare. They had seemed to be getting skinning but my family reassured me that they where fine; I had seen them eat before so I dident think that was the problem, so I think it was either the water or the humidity that was the problem but that just a guess so if you guys could help me figure out what happened that would be awesome, this has been a depressing turn of events to say the least. I want to make a 120% sure I know what I did wrong to make sure I don't make the same mistake again way before I even think of getting more. So any advice you guys can give would be awesome and if you need anymore info just let me know and I'll add some pics of when a
I got them and right before there death.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

You said that your humidity never seemed to get above 70%? What level did it tend to stay at? Your going to find that a range of 80%+ is going to achieve best results with lows occasionally dipping to 70% or so. Do you have the screen tops covered with anything?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Also, did you see them eating a lot?


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Sorry about your loss. I am new to this too and I had a group of five terribilis and lost two of the them and almost lost two more though I was able to get them to pull through. I know how you feel and it sux but once you figure this out you will be a better frog keeper for the experience. And I agree, get that humidity up even if that was not the cause. It should be higher or at least steady at that level.


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## Fyre (Oct 4, 2008)

I am so sorry to hear about your loss. I know that it is tough being new to the hobby and when it seems all is well, you find out it is not. I am also new but from what i've learned in my research pond water probably would not be a good choice for your terriarium. You have no way of knowing what you may be intoducing to the viv environment without testing the water.

You might consider switching to using water from the vending machines you can purchase in grocery stores. The water is usually filtered by reverse osmosis, is pretty cheap, about 29 cents a gallon or so. Cheaper if you bring your own jugs. I use it for my vivs. On the vending machine it will tell you via sticker how often it is maintained. Make sure it is current (within a month or so) and that it is filtered with reverse osmosis.

Hang in there!


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

They seemed to eat, I'm mean do the FF just die after a day of being in the tank? Because there only ever seemed to be a few left in there by the time I next fed them. Yes I covered them with those plastic binder sleeves but dident seal them off and the level stayed at 70% constantly only going up by two in the mornings. I think the hydrometer is messed up though because after they died I bought a fogger in case it was the humidity but after plugging it in and trying it out last night the level did not increase despite the tank being filled with fog so I put another one in there that I use for my plant room and it said 80%+ but it tops out at 80. Could that be broken? I got it from black jungle and could the lack of humidity slowly kill them? I'm pretty sure it wasent a food issue because if it was I would expect them lasting a few days not a month plus. This is just very dishesrting, I thought I had covered all bases, darn.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

Hung I'm not sure if I've seen those machines and I only turned to pond water because I dident know what to do and I thought the water I was useing from the store was the problem.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

sorry about your losses, but im asking everyone else is it okay when your misting your frogs to use like water from the sink?


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

In most areas no, i dident use them for mine because i knew it was filled with clorine and cloramines. Hers the two pics (bare with me please there from a camera phone so there not very good) the first is when i first got them and you can see one of the leucs on top of a piece of wood, the other is after the first one and its hard to make out but he has sunken torso and protrudeing hip bones.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

I know you guys probaly see this kind of thread all the time and are tired of them but any help and guidance would be very much appreciated; I just need to find out what stupid move I did to make myself go wrong; I just want to be able to have these awesome creatures in my home and see them live there life happily ( and maybe even give me see tads too! LOL). I was trying some diffrent things with my new fogger and I found out that the hygrometer that was in the tank was not working and I noticed with the fogger off it was only 62% humidity! I put a diffrent one in there andnitmsjowede that figure. Plus the fogger seems to have no cycles so is constantly one or off and even on the lowest setting completly onscures the tank but when turned off the humidity quickly drops off.


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Have you had fecals done to make sure the frogs are do not have anything?


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

heatfreakk3 said:


> sorry about your losses, but im asking everyone else is it okay when your misting your frogs to use like water from the sink?


Depends. There are lots of other nasties that can be in your tap water as well. Safest bet is to use bottled distilled or drinking water or get yourself a RO/DI filter and filter your own water. Higher startup cost but cheaper over the long run.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

I had thought about getting them done but dident and looking in retrospect by the time I got the test results back it would of been to late anyways. I dident use tap but like I said before I used bottled for the dish, distilled for mist and substrate watering. I thought you were not supposed to use distilled or r/o water for everything because of some water equalization jazz that happens between the water and the frogs body.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your Leucs.

If you are new to frog keeping, go simple with your first viv.

Disconnect that fogger / humidifier and go with good ole' fashion hand misting once a day. Use a glass covered top.

Use aged tap water. No need to buy an $$ RO system. Distilled and RO water are helpful as the don't leave mineral deposits and obscure your viewing glass BUT it certainly can damage tads and frogs as it tends to pull chemicals out of the organism as it seeks equlilbrium.

Go simple....simple water (aged tap)....simple humidity (glass top)

Good temps and food...

Once you have success, and I am sure you will, a more complex Viv will be easy.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

I dident have the fogger when they where alive I just had plastic binder sheets over the top and hand misting but it wasent enough seeing it never got above 70% humidity (I found out recently that it was actually less and the hydrometer I bought with the tank was not working right). If I put glass over it instead will it put the humidity where it should be? What about plastic that's been sealed at the edges?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Glass is sturdy and better to fit and even slide to adjust should you wish more ventilation, but you can use plastic or even celophane in a pinch. A cut glass top from Lowes or Home depot is pretty cheap though.

A lot of people are really getting obsessive about humidity gauges lately. Most of the cheaper dial ones are almost never accurate and some are downright bad. I have never used them

Just hand mist the viv once a day...thats all. Sometimes I only mist my Leucs twice a week! It really doesn't have to be eve close to dripping wet.

Oh...I am assuming you have a false bottom of some sort right?


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

yup, i have a whole setup from black jungle. Well the one i bought with the tank is digital but it seems to be not accurate at all! Im not sure though, could the humdity level in there slowly kill them? what other culprits could have done it assumeing it wasent any sort of bacteria or disease; the temps seemed to be fine (that seemed to read fine) and i made sure i put plenty of flys in there (i even thought i might have been putting to much in there!) i mean most of them seemed to disapear by the next day, im just so confused and saddened by this event.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I would say disease or some other issue over humidity.

What size froglets were they? Quarter size, dime size or bigger?

Age as sold to you?

You say the 2 were the only occupants?

Calcium and vitamin powder?

Exact temps?


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

They where about nickel
Size and where about 5 weeks old, yes I dusted the FFs with vitamin powder every feeding and the temps usually stayed between 68 at night and 72-74 during the day, a few times it reached I


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

About 75 but that is a rare event.


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## Ronm (Oct 1, 2006)

most likely it were parasites that killed them. Try to get your hansd on a microscope and check once a while.
Ron


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Very hard to even guess on this based on what's provided.

I can't find anything glaring........it could be parasites or disease.

Other than a necrospy at a vet and fecals from new frogs...

Just be sure to use a light bleach solution on that entire tank and throw out the substrate.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

Isent there any safe biological based way to clean the substrate? I mean don't get me wrong I'm not trying to cut corners or anything but I spent alot of time and money on putting this tank together and I'd hate to ruin it after all the plants are established. I still do have the body of the last frog but I don't know how good it would be for a necrosy even though it's been stored in a cool environent. Is there anyway for me to collect a soil sample and have that tested for bacteria? I did notice on two occasions (once when the last frog was still alive and then again after he died) rather large looking (compared to FF larvae) worm like larvae that I notice where actually maggots of the Diptera family and just figured they where large FF larvae or one of the harmless worms that come in on plants that I've seen you guys talk about on here every once and awhile, but could they have been the problem? I tryed collecting the first one but it quickly dried up and died; the other time was when I turned on the fogger and I saw one slithering on the glass.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

The dead frog is useless now, and should be discarded.

You would need to immediately put the body in formalin or some other liquid preservative...even Vodka or alcohol. 

And don't freeze it either....freezing destroys tissue and complicates things. Necropsies are on the expensive side usually only done with large collections.

The worm / larvae theory is strange but without pics....very hard to comment on as well. Unless you saw the worm on or in the frog, I would not put too much speculation into this at this time.

The soil sample would be cost prohibitive to get analyized. Commercial available soil mix from any given pet store isn't too expensive is it? ( I make mine and am not up on the current prices).

The total soil replacement and tank cleaning would be,without a doubt, the most cost effective and reasonable broad range step in trying to remove any multiple issues and quesswork. Its the best percentage of trying to eliminate anything with what you have presented.

It does suck, tearing down a viv....but sometimes it's gotta be done.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

Alright, thanks for all your help I'll keep you all up to date on my situation.


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

I spent about $25 for the stuff I made my substrate out of and that gave me enough to do my 75g tank twice. I think for the cost of substrate ingredients better safe than sorry. Also, next round of frogs get fecals tested as soon as the frogs arrive or even see if the seller of the frogs will send out a sample if you pay for the tests. Dr. Frye charges $18 per group of frogs and is pretty much the go to guy around here for those that send their samples out for testing. You can also get any necessary meds from him as well.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

ya, I guess so it's just hate to disturb the plants now that there all well-rooted but I guess there's not much choice, still trying to get a hold of black jungle to talk about my loss. A quick qestion, I know whiteworms go after springtails but do they also prey on FF? If so could it have been to an exstent that there wasent enough food for the luecs? I ask because I have spotted one twice, once before the last one died, one after.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

What major city are you near?

Help is sometimes closer than you think.

The white worm issue is still speculation in my opinion. I wish I knew some really sharp bug guys, but I don't.

The worms I have in my cultures and tanks don't seem to be predacious but I must admit, I haven't studied them for any length of time.

I don't consider them bad or good at this point....I'm dealing with them.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

Alright, I was seeing if it was a possible problem. I live about 30 miles at the most from bosten.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Did you mail order the Black Jungle items/ frogs or did you go to their store?


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

I went strait to there store, I wanted to personally take the frogs home.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

You are lucky to be so close....I talk to Rich everytime he comes to the MARS show in MD and I'm sure he sells nothing but healthy frogs.

Please keep us posted on your viv and anything you uncover....


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

I have no doubt that he only sells healthy frogs, I'm just perplexed by what happened, I just wish he would answer his phonell calls, it's been about 3 days since I left a meassage. I had a qestion, is there a such thing as too much supplement? I dusted the FFs every feeding and it was unavoidable to get acess supplement in the tank, I tryed to wash it away with my spray bottle the best I could but there was always a little residue, could that have been a problem?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Supplement residue in the tank? Not likely to cause any problems IMO...I just wash my excess into the substrate all the time.

Are you suppliments the right kind and not out of date?


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

They looked like the right kind, rich personally handed them to me and no, at the time of there decline and death they where still good. Do you know of a better way to Contact him?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Did you try the store phone number?

If you get an employee and not Rich, they should be able to help as well....but I would actually call during the day before 3pm.

I don't have Richard on speed dial anymore...lol


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

Ya, I called the store number and left a message but no return call. Maybe I'll call again Tuesday after the Monday holiday.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

So I called black jungle again and got rich on the phone (I guess they where away the previous week) and like you guys on the dendroboard he said It could have been anything but I guess I made a major bone head move by putting the tank to a radiator and a window (although I thought it was enough off to the side) could that have killed them? I feel very stupid right now for not asking that qestion when I bought them. I think I'm going to move the tank into my dineing room and place it up against the inside wall faceing the kitchen; there is a north faceing picture window in the room so would that be trouble? This comes as a big surprise because at the time I thought the thermonater and hydrometor was working fine, although now it seems not just the hydrometor, but the thermomator was also not working right. I'm just not sure where to go from here... I'm kinda at a loss of words.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Average room temperatures of @ 70F is fine for most dart frogs.

If you get up into the low 80's in the summer and the mid 60's in the winter...that is managable.

What you don't want is a big drop in temp at night during the winter...like going from 75 F to 60 F every night.

People with cold houses, drafts, needing to heat their house with a space heater or fireplace......I would re-think dartfrog keeping.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

No, I have an oil heater, so maybe it just needs to be set higher at night? I thought at 68 it would of been fine. If I do like rich says and move the tank to an inside wall, that would help right? I hope you not suggesting I quit dart frogs, I really really want to be in this hobby; look at me I sound like a 12 year old, LOL.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

No...I would rather not dissuade anyone from keeping dart frogs.

I just added that heat condition as a general caveat. If you have mostly steady temps of 68F, I would look to other issues for your loss.

Vivs are better off located away from windows due to direct light and possible winter draft temp fluctuations.

Did you notice any change in the amount of FF intake? Were they were eating and hunting down flies with every feeding?


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

They seemed to be, unless most of them escaped the cage, as I've heard Eco-terras are notorius for doing or do they usually last very long after you put them in? Or do they die off rather quickly? So far I think the most crediably reason for there premature death. I wanted to express my gratiude to you for being ylthe only one responding to this thread and walking me through potential reasons for my darts deaths, thank you.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

You are quite welcome. 

I'm just sorry that I couldn't close in on an issue that may have contributed to the loss of your frogs.

Make sure you sterilize the tank ect before putting new frogs in that exo.

Good luck and I'm sure you'll do fine.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

Alright, well I'm thinking I'm going to move the viv to that inside wall in my dineing room and I'll keep you updated if anything new happens.


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

Well yesterday I moved the viv. To a inside wall in my dining room (it looks great), cut a piece of plexiglass to snuggly fit the top of my Exo-terra and took the screen top and the pieces of binder plastic that I was useing before and set it aside. After putting the plexiglass was on I sealed up the small holes with black electrical tape; there was also a hole cut in it for the fogged hose. Right after putting the new top on the hydrometer said 52% because the top had been off for awhile, I started the fogger and put it on the lowest setting it quickly fogged up and soon the plants and glass where covered with mist, pretty much soaked and the meter still only went up to 70% I would think the meter tops out at 70 but I've see it get to 74. I left it on over night and the temp. Dident change to much about 75 degrees dureing the day and 72.5 at 6 this morning, so I've got the temps to hold steady but for some damn infernal reason I can't get the humidity over 70% it certainly looks like it's over that amount but the meter never goes above I even put a non-digital one in there to along win the digital and it read the same! I just don't understand it, if I put any more moisture in there it's gonna be a fish tank!


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