# How do you get your ABG mix? (or other substrate?)



## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

For some of the terrariums I've made, and especially one I've been working on now, I've needed a lot of ABG mix, and it's hit my wallet pretty hard. The least expensive I've seen (per gallon) is NEHERP's mix, but that's excluding the cost of shipping. On Amazon prime, with free shipping, some 1-gallon ABG mix bags can get close to $20.

That's significantly more expensive than buying potting mixes and other soils less suited to tropical plant / animal life in vivs.

I wanted to open this up for users to say how they get their substrate in general, but I was also specifically wondering whether users who use ABG mix get it pre-packaged or mix it together themselves. From what I have read, pre-packaged usually is the less expensive option for most functions. But I'm curious to hear from users firsthand.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kinstrome said:


> That's significantly more expensive than buying potting mixes and other soils *less suited* to tropical plant / animal life in vivs.


Emphasized the interesting part.

I made my first batch of "ABG" (note the scare quotes). It didn't turn out as I'd hoped, mostly because I thought I could cut corners (didn't use tree fern to "save money" [quotes again], didn't shred sphagnum fine enough, etc). Penny wise, pound foolish. 

I buy mine from Glassbox, and like it. If a person buys all the ingredients from a frog vendor, I don't see the cost savings. If a person hunts up ingredients (smashing up BBQ charcoal...), perhaps there's some cost savings.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

It's not just cost - there's also the convenience factor. I think that if you buy in large enough bulk, you can probably do it cheaper (those margins for all of the vendors have to come from somewhere, right?). However, the question is how much time and effort do you want to devote to this part of your build? When I was making more of it, I bought a blender from a thrift store to shred the sphagnum, I drove over the charcoal I bought from Home Depot with my car to smash it up, then I had to mix it in a big ol' trash can. I got absolutely filthy doing that because of all the dust in the air. After a while, I decided it wasn't worth it even if I was making a couple of bucks on each gallon I sold. I am not doing this for a living. It's just a hobby. I don't need to spend my time this way, so I don't. Let the professionals do it and just be thankful you have time and space to do other things rather than make ABG is my advice.

All of the above was before I found Turface as an alternative, as well. I use Turface MVP or Turface All Sport in all my builds now. It grows plants well, it is dirt cheap and seems to be nearly permanent. You are going to be obligated to maintain a leaf litter layer over it, but you should probably be doing that anyway even if you use ABg  I would check to see if there are any local places that sell it or pick some up at a show. It is relatively heavy to ship, but not impossibly so. It is used for baseball infields, so you might check at landscaping places to see if they sell it. It should run between 15 and 25 bucks for a 50 pound bag. That 50 pounds goes a long way, too. Anyway, it's another option to check out if ABG is proving too expensive (as it did for me).

Mark


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> It's not just cost - there's also the convenience factor. I think that if you buy in large enough bulk, you can probably do it cheaper (those margins for all of the vendors have to come from somewhere, right?). However, the question is how much time and effort do you want to devote to this part of your build? When I was making more of it, I bought a blender from a thrift store to shred the sphagnum, I drove over the charcoal I bought from Home Depot with my car to smash it up, then I had to mix it in a big ol' trash can. I got absolutely filthy doing that because of all the dust in the air. After a while, I decided it wasn't worth it even if I was making a couple of bucks on each gallon I sold. I am not doing this for a living. It's just a hobby. I don't need to spend my time this way, so I don't. Let the professionals do it and just be thankful you have time and space to do other things rather than make ABG is my advice.
> 
> All of the above was before I found Turface as an alternative, as well. I use Turface MVP or Turface All Sport in all my builds now. It grows plants well, it is dirt cheap and seems to be nearly permanent. You are going to be obligated to maintain a leaf litter layer over it, but you should probably be doing that anyway even if you use ABg  I would check to see if there are any local places that sell it or pick some up at a show. It is relatively heavy to ship, but not impossibly so. It is used for baseball infields, so you might check at landscaping places to see if they sell it. It should run between 15 and 25 bucks for a 50 pound bag. That 50 pounds goes a long way, too. Anyway, it's another option to check out if ABG is proving too expensive (as it did for me).
> 
> Mark


When you use Turface does do you still use a false bottom or does this work as a substrate and drainage material?


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I was actually interested in knowing that, myself.

It may be evident from the abundance of threads I make, that there is still much I don't know about plants and terraria. I don't really understand what properties different soil / substrates have that make them more or less suitable to grow such-and-such plants.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kinstrome said:


> It may be evident from the abundance of threads I make, that there is still much I don't know about plants and terraria. I don't really understand what properties different soil / substrates have that make them more or less suitable to grow such-and-such plants.


The culture of some plants in some groups (potted orchids are a good example) can be very dependent on the specifics of the potting mix. This can be a complex decision requiring a lot of knowledge of the species at issue.

Frog vivs are more one-substrate fits-all. They generally require a moisture-retaining, well-draining, non-compacting and (most importantly) long-lasting mix. Anything dry, soggy, dense or prone to breakdown won't work, but it isn't so much a matter of such-and-such a plant than it is a matter of the viv environment itself.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Hmm. Well, I don't particularly care for frogs --- I prefer pets that I can pick up and cuddle with --- so ABG mix doesn't have that particular advantage to me. I Turface fits all the useful parameters for tropical plant-growing, I wish I had known about it before I invested in so much ABG mix (17+ gallons).

My plant growing ignorance runs deep, though. For a long time, I didn't really understand at all how plants could derive sustenance without some kind of substrate (be it earthen soil or organic matter). I believed this in spite of living around Spanish Moss, a tillandsia without substrate.

Even now, I still have that old Elementary School logic in my head, that plants consume light plus water plus soil to grow. I suppose that that's not way off track, but it's oversimplified...


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I think you are being too hard on yourself! Discovering how to maintain a good vivarium (frogless or frogful) is a journey  It may seem like folks that post on the board sprung from the Internet fully formed and knowledgeable, but that is just not the case. All of us learn as we go and I hope that I have a lot more learning ahead of me because there are still so many things I don't know.

If you are talking about having a tank that you never plan on having frogs in, that changes the dynamics a little, but not that much. You still want a substrate that will provide the plants with nutrients they need. ABG or Turface can do this. The massive advantage you have IF you never plan on having frogs is that you can use fertilizers without worrying about the frogs. You could even use pesticides, but you may someday want to sell the tank or try frogs out and I wouldn't do that if you have used pesticides in the tank. ABG is a great option and you shouldn't feel bad about having used it for your builds so far. It does a good job at growing plants and is good for 10 years or more depending on the formula. If you want to build more tanks in the future, keep Turface in mind, but don't worry about having used ABG in the meantime. It has worked for decades and continues to work for a majority of the hobby (I am guessing). 

Just enjoy your plants!

Mark


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I don't mean to sound self-critical, I was more meaning to convey that I am indeed interested in knowing if there are other substrates I could use to grow plants well in. Turface is less expensive than ABG mix, so if there isn't a drop-off in its ability to grow terrarium-suited plants, it would be a nice substitute.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

ABG isn't a requirement for a thriving vivarium. There are many other recipes that will produce similar results. I've been using and selling my own mix for about 15 years and it works great, without the expense of tree fern fiber. Getting the ratios right can take some experimentation, but I mix (by volume) coco peat, sphagnum peat, coco husk chips, sand, hardwood charcoal, and long-fiber sphagnum.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

PhylloBro said:


> When you use Turface does do you still use a false bottom or does this work as a substrate and drainage material?


I still use an egg crate false bottom with fiberglass screen over it (I silicone this to the sides). Turface is a bit too fine-grained to act as a drainage layer, in my experience.

Mark


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I'd really like to see a list of what specific plants people are growing in turface, and which ones have thrived long-term. I've had some plants do well in it, but some plants really don't like it at all. For example, I have yet to find a monolena, geogenanthus, or pilea that likes turface. Some begonias I tried didn't like it, either. So far, Begonia thelmae, my jewel orchids, Mikania guaco, Syngonium erythrophyllum, and Alocasia regulina like it. 

Which plants have done well in turface, for those of you who've tried it, and which plants did poorly in it?


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## dmb5245 (Feb 7, 2014)

Encyclia said:


> It's not just cost - there's also the convenience factor. I think that if you buy in large enough bulk, you can probably do it cheaper (those margins for all of the vendors have to come from somewhere, right?).


I'd be willing to bet that bagged substrates are big money makers for vendors. You could mix literal tons of discounted bulk on next-to-nothing labor costs, it has an infinite shelf-life, and everyone needs a couple bags. I know a local vendor who sells his own brand and he pushes it pretty hard, which tells me he makes a nice margin from it. But as an individual consumer, I can't touch those economies. So I buy the marked up bag and smile knowing it probably funds his breeding and plant projects.

People come for the plants and animals, but grab substrate on the way out. "Do you want ABG with that?"


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

dmb5245 said:


> I'd be willing to bet that bagged substrates are big money makers for vendors. You could mix literal tons of discounted bulk on next-to-nothing labor costs, it has an infinite shelf-life, and everyone needs a couple bags. I know a local vendor who sells his own brand and he pushes it pretty hard, which tells me he makes a nice margin from it. But as an individual consumer, I can't touch those economies. So I buy the marked up bag and smile knowing it probably funds his breeding and plant projects.
> 
> People come for the plants and animals, but grab substrate on the way out. "Do you want ABG with that?"


You are probably right, but I never got to the scale where it was worth my time 

Mark


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

When i went to purchase a bag of Turface all sport it gave me a pop up for the CA prop 65 mandatory warning. 

Proposition 65 requires businesses to provide warnings to Californians about significant exposures to chemicals that cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

PhylloBro said:


> When i went to purchase a bag of Turface all sport it gave me a pop up for the CA prop 65 mandatory warning.
> 
> Proposition 65 requires businesses to provide warnings to Californians about significant exposures to chemicals that cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm.


Yep, Turface is largely crystalline silica. Don't smash it and inhale the dust.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yep, Turface is largely crystalline silica. Don't smash it and inhale the dust.


I have seen in other threads people recommending this exact one for its smaller particles. This one and MVP. With water wouldnt it dissolve causing some of it to be absorbed by frogs?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

It doesn't seem like there is too much to worry about here. According to the SDS (https://www.turface.com/sites/default/files/_media/resource/turfacer_mvpr-_blm001.pdf), it composed of 3-5% silicates. The rest is heat-treated clay. 

Here are a couple of other tidbits from the SDS: 

Chemical Stability: Turface is stable under all normal conditions. _(editorial by me: normal conditions shouldn't be too different from what we expose the stuff to in our vivaria. The stuff is designed to be used in baseball infields.)_

ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Naturally occuring, inorganic, crystalline, absorbent, clay minerals, such as Attapulgalite and Montmorillonite, are used in a wide variety of commercial, industrial, and consumer applications. Calcium bentonite and sodium bentonite clays, which are composed mostly of monmorillonite, have been listed for many years as Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS) by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for use in human food and animal feed.
-------
I am not a chemist or environmental toxicologist so I can't comment beyond the above, but I think that we would find that SiO2 is present in a lot of other things that we routinely use in our vivaria (sand and rocks, for one) and in higher percentages. I don't want to circulate false information, though, so if anybody else can shed light on whether this is a problem, please let us know. As SM said, certainly don't crush it up or breathe the dust that comes out of the bag. It wouldn't hurt to rinse the stuff out before using it, but which of us wouldn't do that anyway? 

Mark


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

The fact that most of it is considered generally safe in animal and human food is kinda comforting and it does say under normal conditions it is chemically stable but I dont think a vivarium is a normal condition. Especially with some of the people who do routine daily round the clock misting schedules. That seems like it would lead to a lot of errosion, leaking the substances into the vivarium. 3-5% is a low percentage but im not smart enough to know whether thats low or high and what levels are dangerous but I think just the amount of exposure would increase the risk


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Woodswalker said:


> I'd really like to see a list of what specific plants people are growing in turface, and which ones have thrived long-term. I've had some plants do well in it, but some plants really don't like it at all. For example, I have yet to find a monolena, geogenanthus, or pilea that likes turface. Some begonias I tried didn't like it, either. So far, Begonia thelmae, my jewel orchids, Mikania guaco, Syngonium erythrophyllum, and Alocasia regulina like it.
> 
> 
> 
> Which plants have done well in turface, for those of you who've tried it, and which plants did poorly in it?


This is something I'm interested in seeing as well. I've found a place not too far from me that should sell turface, I'm interested in seeing what people have had success growing in turface


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

fishingguy12345 said:


> This is something I'm interested in seeing as well. I've found a place not too far from me that should sell turface, I'm interested in seeing what people have had success growing in turface


I'll third that. Heck, I'd like to see a list of this for all substrates, for all types of background / epiphytic mounting, and probably for some other parameters types, too.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Kinstrome said:


> I'll third that. Heck, I'd like to see a list of this for all substrates, for all types of background / epiphytic mounting, and probably for some other parameters types, too.


You may want to switch your focus from what will benefit your plants to what will benefit your frogs. They are not the same thing.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

PhylloBro said:


> You may want to switch your focus from what will benefit your plants to what will benefit your frogs. They are not the same thing.


I don't believe he is planning on having frogs in the tank, at least for now.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> I don't believe he is planning on having frogs in the tank, at least for now.


Oh okay. Rereading that it came off kinda snarky too so sorry for that not my intention.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Yeah, I'm not a frogger. Understandable misunderstanding. I just hang around because this is the best site (as far as I know, anyway) for terrarium information. 

The only animals I own are snakes. And they'll probably never be in planted terrariums, just artificial setups that mimic terrariums.


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## Khamul (Jan 16, 2018)

Dane said:


> ABG isn't a requirement for a thriving vivarium. There are many other recipes that will produce similar results. I've been using and selling my own mix for about 15 years and it works great, without the expense of tree fern fiber. Getting the ratios right can take some experimentation, but I mix (by volume) coco peat, sphagnum peat, coco husk chips, sand, hardwood charcoal, and long-fiber sphagnum.


Does the sand not sift down through the mix to the bottom? Thats what im imagining


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Khamul said:


> Does the sand not sift down through the mix to the bottom? Thats what im imagining


Not really. It sticks to the peat, and serves to keep the mix loose.


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## TheRainforestExhibit (Dec 3, 2018)

I just made about 100 gallons worth of ABG Mix for The Rainforest Exhibit!

I had to use a kiddie pool to mix it in! All of the supplies, except for the Lump Charcoal came from sustainable sources from Acadian Supply, LLC.

I am also actually considering making my own to sell.

I made enough for the 750 Gallon Exhibit, the 75 Gallon vivarium, and the two 30 gallon vivariums. I have enough to add to them if needed.

As soon as the vlog goes up I will let you know.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yep, Turface is largely crystalline silica.





Encyclia said:


> It doesn't seem like there is too much to worry about here. According to the SDS (https://www.turface.com/sites/default/files/_media/resource/turfacer_mvpr-_blm001.pdf), it composed of 3-5% silicates. The rest is heat-treated clay.


Thanks for clarifying, Mark. I searched hastily, and found the SDS for "Turface Professional Mound Clay", which is 40% crystalline silica. Sloppy of me, and I'm sorry to have mislead anyone.


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## SoloSK71 (Dec 25, 2018)

*Silicon Oxide (relevant sections from MSDS)

9 PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES

Appearance:
Form: Solid in various forms
Color: Transparent or white
Odor: Odorless
Odor Threshold: Not determined
pH: N/A
Melting Point: 1710 C
Boiling Point: No data
Flash Point: N/A
Evaporation Rate: N/A
Flammability: No data
Upper Flammable Limit: No data
Lower Flammable Limit: No data
Vapor Pressure: No data
Vapor Density: N/A
Relative Density (Specific Gravity): 2.2 - 2.6 g/cc
Solubility in H2O: Insoluble
Partition Coefficient (n-octanol/water): Not determined
Autoignition Temperature: No data
Decomposition Temperature: No data
Viscosity: N/A

10 STABILITY AND REACTIVITY

Reactivity: No specific test data available.
Chemical Stability: Stable under recommended storage conditions.
Possibility of Hazardous Reactions: Hazardous polymerization will not occur.
Conditions to Avoid: No data
Incompatible Materials: Strong hot alkali solutions, hydrofluoric, fluorosilicic and phosphoric acids.
Hazardous Decomposition Products: None expected.*

There is no issue with the use of this in terrariums, provided you don't stick your face in the bag and take a couple of deep sniffs of the dust.

Solo


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

No, these are the relevant sections:

2 HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION 

Other Hazard Information: Under normal handling and use, exposure to solid forms of this material present few health hazards. If subsequent operations produce dust or fumes, these may irritate lungs, eyes or skin. *Long-term exposure to respirable crystalline silica dusts may cause silicosis or cancer.*

11 TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION

Likely Routes of Exposure: Inhalation, skin and eyes.

Symptoms of Exposure: May cause irritation if dusts or fumes are inhaled or swallowed. Dusts may irritate skin and eyes. 

NTP: Silica, crystalline (respirable size): K - *Known to be carcinogenic*


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## dmb5245 (Feb 7, 2014)

Socratic Monologue said:


> No, these are the relevant sections:
> 
> 2 HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
> 
> ...


So the hazards are dust related? I've never used the stuff myself, but this sounds like a non-factor in a humid vivarium.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Thanks for clarifying, Mark. I searched hastily, and found the SDS for "Turface Professional Mound Clay", which is 40% crystalline silica. Sloppy of me, and I'm sorry to have mislead anyone.


No worries. Makes a lot more sense that you were looking at a different product. I couldn't figure out where the disconnect was and you nailed it. I appreciate you letting me know we were looking at two different things. 

Mark


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

dmb5245 said:


> So the hazards are dust related? I've never used the stuff myself, but this sounds like a non-factor in a humid vivarium.


Yeah, I see this as an issue of there being hazard, but not much risk (sorry, I map wildfire threat for a living...). Yes, if you crunch the stuff up and inhale a bunch of it over a really long period of time, it isn't a good thing. I don't think that's the way most of us are going to use Turface, though. I think that this is an added reminder to me to give the stuff a rinse before I use it (not the easiest because it is pretty light and not as easy as gravel to get the water back out). However, once you have the fine particles out, I think the remaining product is so inert and sturdy that you aren't likely to be making more dust over the long term. That's the way it works in my vivs, anyway. So, I think there is a potential for a problem to occur, but only if you are dead set on using the stuff the wrong way. I think the same argument could be made for any safe (non-organotin, do a search on this board) silicone that we use in our tanks all the time. It's potentially hazardous!!!! IF you put your frogs in before it cures. But we aren't going to do that. So, if you use Turface the right way, I don't see any risk to our animals beyond the background risk we are exposing our animals to by bringing them out of their native habitat. 

Just my $0.02,

Mark
(P.S. Our definition of hazard at work is that IF a fire would occur, the outcomes would be grim. It becomes high risk when the likelihood of a fire occurring is also high. There are lots of places that are unlikely to have a fire, but if the wrong weather day and drought situation occurred, look out...)


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## SoloSK71 (Dec 25, 2018)

I would add that I am currently mixing large amounts of this, horticultural charcoal, tree fern fibre, Miller sphagnum, etc. to make ABG mix and I use a large volume sprayer before I start and throughout for dust control. I still wear a mask, goggles and gloves but I notice a LOT less dust all over the workspace when I am done since I started doin this.

Solo


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