# roach warning



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ok. I've been feeding out roaches for two months. The new food item has been very helpful getting my frogs to breed.

However, my mantellas were always slow to go after the roaches. (they are the same with fruit flies too). Many escaped into the substrate.

My roach trap wasn't not catching them fast enough, so I decided to dry ice my tank.

Guess what. IT DIDN'T WORK. I even put a male lateralis in a dish to see if the roach would die. It fell asleep, but after about an hour, it woke back up. :shock: Many of the nymphs did too.

I only gassed the tank for about three hours though. I ended up having to flood the tank and that killed them all.

I wasn't trying to rid the tank exclusively for roaches. I was also getting rid of snails and slugs which DO go after my mantella eggs.

I needed to redo my mantella tank anyway, but let this be a warning for those trying the dry ice method.

As far as the tricolor's tank, I don't think I'm having the same problem with a roach infestation.

Just as bad, I have found a lot of escaped adults. Once I found one in my springtail culture. Most are males because they are thinner and can squeeze through the lids of tubberwares. How they climb out, I don't know.

I have the roaches in a new container now, thank goodness.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Most are probably males, because males have wings (hint, hint).


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

yeah the males can't really fly well, but i have seen one jump and get a little air and flutter down. i have only fed roaches in a dish and haven't had one escape yet, plus my container i made sure is practically air tight besides the screen i put in.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> Most are probably males, because males have wings (hint, hint).


I'm aware of that fact, Clay. However, the "roach propaganda" on websites state that they cannot fly. I started to suspect they can though when I fed a beheaded male to my Bombina. I saw it flutter its wings.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Ignore the roach propaganda, if it has a full set of wings, it almost certainly can use them. This goes for all roaches. Female Orange Heads aren't supposed to fly either, especially not when fully pregnant, and I have proved to my satisfaction otherwise. Ditto for female Giant Cave Roaches.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

In my experiance mantella's and roaches do not mix even smaller type will devour there eggs.I once watched in horror as a roach was munching on some bernhardi eggs since then no more roaches for my manti's.
(I didnt watch long but I couldnt tell what it was until closer inspection.)

Just a thought.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

there's a possibility that the low viability of my last clutch was influenced by predation. Snails were all over the egg mass. The roaches I think were too small to be an egg threat, but the snails could have suffocated them.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Catfur said:


> Ignore the roach propaganda, if it has a full set of wings, it almost certainly can use them. This goes for all roaches. Female Orange Heads aren't supposed to fly either, especially not when fully pregnant, and I have proved to my satisfaction otherwise. Ditto for female Giant Cave Roaches.


err...I've tried throwing orangeheads up in the air and their wings are pretty much useless. I guess yours just really wanted to fly!


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## wimpy (Dec 14, 2006)

Are the different feeder roach's all kinda the same as German roach's? I understand that they are different species but what I mean is, are they also home invasive types? The kind that if they get loose, where you see one, there is a thousand? I've been kicking the tires about setting up some cultures but my SO might rebel if i can't show the difference.

Wimpy


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The idea behind feeder roach species is the idea that if they get loose they will not become established as a pest. This is why they are tropical species... so unless you live in areas that are close to or are tropical, they won't be a pest species.

There are a HUGE variety of roaches, and comparing them all to german roaches isn't fair! There are plenty that are so different from the german's, you'd be suprised they were related! Key things like rarely flying and using glass climbers allow them to be much easier to control if you take the right procautions. Like every feeder, some will get out tho, just keep that in mind, especially if you live with others that might not be so forgiving if they get loose. Like most most of the critters we feed them to, roaches can be escape artists.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Blatta lateralis - the Turkistan Cockroach is the only commonly kept feeder roach that is a pest species, or closely related to a pet species (they are in the same genus as the Chinese Water Bug/Oriental Cockroach - Blatta orientalis). Turkistan cockroaches are a noted pest species in many places in the world, but like Oriental roaches, they only infest wet places like damp basements and sewers. Unlike the Oriental cockroach the Turkistan cockroach requires higher temperatures to breed, so is less likely to infest your home than the Oriental roach. Additionaly, Blatta spp. are unable to climb smooth surfaces like glass and smooth plastic, and are therefore much easier to confine than glass climbing roaches like Lobster roaches, Madagascar Hissing roaches, and German roaches. The males are capable of limited flight though (the female Turkistan roach is wingless).


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Catfur said:


> Unlike the Oriental cockroach the Turkistan cockroach requires higher temperatures to breed, so is less likely to infest your home than the Oriental roach.


I'd like to add an observation:
I have a proven group of breeding roaches in one of my PDF tanks, and they were proven before my AC went out as well, so they don't really need that high of temps to reproduce. (the tank reaches 77-78F max at the top of the tank).

As for the dry ice gassing, I would have left the tank filled with CO2 with the tank darkened for a good day or so. Either way, when you do so, I would recommend combing the tank for ones that merely "fell asleep", as when I gassed one tank (for more than a day) most were dead, but I did find one that was waking up.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

once again Brian, I think it's just (like you once said) just "roach propaganda."

I will admit though, Blatta lateralis don't do very well outside their cage. Escapees that I have found have been sickly.

Luckily, now with the new screen top (with my rice flour beetle culture as weight), I haven't found any escapees.

And just as a safeguard, I sprayed roach kill in my room. I managed to catch a dying female in my room. :wink: 

Brian, what are your "proven" roaches eating, other than the hydei? While roaches have the potential to harm a frog, I feel as if they are more willing to eat something else since many survive and grow from the nymph stage.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

They've munched on some of the leaves, and to my knowledge, they have left any eggs alone.
I don't plan on keeping the tank how it is, just haven't got around to gassing it yet.

The fact that I've seen them eat flies, and that I've seen a roach carry a kibble of dogfood that probably weighed more than the roach did, tells me they probably wouldn't think twice about trying whatever is on hand.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> I will admit though, Blatta lateralis don't do very well outside their cage. Escapees that I have found have been sickly.


I had a mass escape of them a while back (they can easily climb some rubbermaids). I was changing my filters in my humidifier and found probably 20 in there. Luckily the garbage can was close, so the whole unit when in the bag.

I've caught a grand total of 2 with the "coffee grinds and water in a glass jar up against a wall" trap (google it - it is THE roach trap of choice in arizona). I bought 20 some roach glue traps and haven't caught any in any of them (been about a month - got them right after I found all of them in the humidifier).

Anybody have a good source for boric acid traps?


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

Crap, I believed the "roach propaganda," and I just ordered a bunch of Blaptica dubia to culture for my frogs (white's, malaysian painted, and FBT).

I can certainly see the problem of escapees OUTSIDE the vivs ... as will my wife, who loves frogs, but bugs, not so much.

Is the problem with them escaping IN the viv that they then grow too big for the frogs to eat?

If so, that may not be as big a concern for me, as even at full size I don't think the White's or Malaysians would have any problem overpowering them. The White's can easily tackle a full-size superworm, as can Jabba, the biggest Malaysian.

Jim


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Oooo...

Blaptica dubia get a whole lot bigger than a superworm. They get about 2" long and roughly an inch wide, with a tubby one about 7/16" thick. I think that a full grown dubia wouldn't be able to hide very well in a lot of tanks, though. B. dubia also isn't likely to start an infestation in your house, like Blatta species could potentially do. (Blatta spp. and Blaptica dubia aren't even in the same family of roach).


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

Catfur said:


> Oooo...
> 
> Blaptica dubia get a whole lot bigger than a superworm. They get about 2" long and roughly an inch wide, with a tubby one about 7/16" thick. I think that a full grown dubia wouldn't be able to hide very well in a lot of tanks, though. B. dubia also isn't likely to start an infestation in your house, like Blatta species could potentially do. (Blatta spp. and Blaptica dubia aren't even in the same family of roach).


2"! That's bigger than the "proaganda" indicated ... although I doubt any would reach that size in the viv, as the White's are voracious, and anything that peeks its head above the substrate does so at great risk.

I decided to order these after comparing them with Blatta, but I was concerned that, although a different family, they might lead to the same problem that required gassing the tank to get rid of them. Which, I still assume the problem is that they grow too big for the frogs, and stress them?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I wonder what this roach propaganda was that you were reading? Might need to make it more roach species specific!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I do not keep dubia, but I will say, for bigger frog species, roaches are a decent food source, provided that you have a good lid on the tanks because I have had my fair share of adult B. lateralis males escape from my bombina vivarium. 

They drown faster too than crickets, sometimes too quickly before my firebellies get them.


The "infestation" scenario is more of a problem for naturalistic vivariums because roaches can hide/breed/ eat whatever...and so can crickets. Meaning, they can eat frog eggs, stray fruit flies, springtails, your orchids, bury their eggs under the soil and leaves, whatever.

I'm sure if my tricolor tank wasn't so well planted, they'd eat all the roach nymphs before they grew to a size to make them inedible. 

As for what Brian said about reproduction, yes, my lateralis will breed (slower though) at lower temps, even down into the high 60s. 

Apparently, they do NOT do as well exposed to high temperatures (they do better with a cool spot and basking spot for some odd reason), considering how they died in the mail when I sent some to Corey (and the temps didn't peak above 90 for long).

Jehitch, just make sure you keep a good, tight lid on your colony. I have not suffered any more escapes since I put them in a ten gallon tank with a screen lid (plus my rice flour beetle culture as a weight).

For trapping them, get a shallow shoebox and fill with about an inch of vegetable oil. Get a small yogurt container with cat food and place it in the center, surrounded by a "moat." Line the sides of the shoebox on the outside with paper so they can climb into the trap.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

A note on B. latterallis:
Even in my Phyllobates tanks, stray roaches have managed to hide out and grow quite well.
I fed quite a few to my peacock day geckos, (which I no longer have) and there are no survivors (that I see) in that tank.


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> I wonder what this roach propaganda was that you were reading? Might need to make it more roach species specific!


I think the fault is my ability to mentally convert metric to imperial. Or perhaps to imagine the volume of a 2" roach. My white's gobble down 2" long superworms like a snack. But something an inch wide, and nearly a half inch thick ... that's a lot of bug.

The breeder said, 

"Ideal for most insect loving reptiles and amphibians. As feeders roach carry a much higher meat to shell ratio than other feeders. They do not hop around, smell, or die in a short time. Also, roaches are very easy to breed compared to other feeders.

"We do not sell any roaches considered “pests”. These roaches live in tropical environments and need the right conditions to survive (see our care sheet). Typical households are to cold for most species and they will usually die quickly without heat, food, and water.

"Blaptica dubia (a.k.a. Guyana orange spotted roach) is found throughout Central and South America including French Guyana. This species ranges in size from 42-50mm. B. dubia is a very popular feeder roach in Europe and has been increasingly popular in the U.S. This is my favorite roach by far. Very good breeders, long-lived, calm, and very little odor make this an excellent roach. If you’re looking for a feeder, look no further. Another thing I really like about this species is while mature males get full wings (but don't fly ), females only have little stubs making them one of the easiest roaches to sex. Also, this roach is very mellow compared to the blaberus species. Often during cleaning nymphs will play dead and this species is very easy to handle. These roaches usually reach adulthood in 3-5 months and then will live another 12-24months.

Anyone disagree with the above? I need to convince my wife they won't survive if they escape!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I have an update:

I found two 1/2" roach nymphs scurrying around in my tricolor tank last night. They are the only survivors I have seen, unless more are in hiding.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Yeah, I have dubia and the adults would be quite a mouthful for a Whites treefrog(except maybe the male dubia who are pretty slender). That being said, large roaches are perfect sized for small African bullfrogs and horned frogs. You could simply feed out nymphs...and maybe get a tarantula to take care of the big uns.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I don't think the roach "propaganda" was incorrect... there are just a couple factors - mentioned directly or certain things implied - that many people just don't think about much. 

First is the pest bit... the likelihood of them turning into a pest, as stated, is really low... unless you live in the tropics, but then again they'd be native at that point anyways  This does NOT mean they won't get out tho... they may not live for long, but unless you've got them in a reall tight cage, you'll have a least a couple of the little guys running around... just like any other feeder.

Second... the meat to shell ratio. This is the biggest thing about roaches that people seem to underestimate the meaning of. Higher meat to shell means more bang for your buck, more mass to the bug for it's length. Length is really misleading because MASS is more important than length, but not as easily measured by most since you'd need a REALLY expensive scale to weigh small bugs! Case in point - freshly hatched lateralis are basically the same length as hydei... but have significantly more mass to them (wouldn't be suprised if it's about double or more). This means you need to feed less of them comparitively, and also have to take into account that they are truely a larger bug, and those able to take hydei may not be able to handle the larger bulk of roaches.

Due to the size difference, I'd try and aim for feeding the same MASS as other foods you're feeding, and try subadult nymphs.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I'd like to see something try to swallow one of these...

(but seriously, they might be good feeders for horned frogs and the like)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> I'd like to see something try to swallow one of these...
> 
> (but seriously, they might be good feeders for horned frogs and the like)quote]
> 
> ...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

One of my all time favorite roaches! I managed to get a pair and was breeding them at one point... fed out the baby nymphs when I had them. I've seen some tree monitors tear up adults when the older adults where phased out of a colony  The fact that the roaches were the size of their head was not a deterant since they just ripped them to peices anyways... and bearded dragons like the half growns...

As a feeder, their reproduction is way too slow. As pets whose babies you feed off for occassional treats, they are great


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ed,

The last clutch of Mantella eggs were covered in snails. I subsequently had low hatch rates despite they did not eat the yolks. They probably smothered the clutch or their mucus interfered with their development.


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