# Reporting a bad pet store



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

I just wanted to ask peoples opinions of wether i should report my local pet store owner or not. (and if i did, who to?). I periodically use a pet store near my house for pinheads if my fruitflys run low or when i order new ones and re-start the cultures. (I once heard from a Dutch guy that after 6 months production lessens and so does the size of the produced fly). Anyway, i digress. The place I go sells PDF's. He sells them as froglets and most if not all are tiny, maybe only a few weeks from getting on land. On average about 7-8 millimetres. Evety time i go there the tanks are dry, the water bowls are empty and the frogs are very malnourished and the only food they seem to have are crickets three times there own size. I would buy all his stock and rescue them but with his prices ($80 for a tinct, $70 for azureus) i can't afford to. His other stock seems to be mostly ok though his lizards are often seen drowned in thier oversize waterbowls (and the decomposition tells me they're not having a quick dip) etc etc. I have spoken to him about the way he looks after the PDF's and he really isn't bothered, he just sees the big $ sign. Has anyone ever reported anything like this before and do you think i should report the guy??? :x


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Honestly - I don't think he's legally doing anything wrong, so there are no legal ramifications (in reality even by his way of thinking, its his loss - bad care means more deaths which means less sales - and yes I have used this to get my managers to let me do what I wanted at the pet store I worked at).

Others you could "report" to are animal rights group - sure to give him hell, but will only use it as ammo to keep these critters from being pets in the first place. 

Do not buy the animals out of pity, you're only encouraging him by giving him sales, the animals will only be replaced with more. If he loses animals by having them die on him, as horrid as it sounds, he's less likely to carry them in the future.

This is the sucky part about these critters starting to go mainstream in the herp hobby, more are becoming available to resellers, and popping up in stores that either don't know, or don't care about the care of the animals.

On the matter of restarting the fruit fly cultures, I find that interesting... I've definately had FFs going for more than 6 months with no real issues in production. The smaller fruit flies only occur near the end of the cultures' lives. I'd like to hear a bit about that from Ed's Fly Meat - I believe they've had lines going for years, and I haven't seen a change in size or production buying those flies repeatidly, from the same stock, since basically 2001.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Thanks Cory, everything you said makes sense. Unfortunaltly I have to go there every now and again and i come out so depressed! it is a shame he is the only pet store in vegas that does true pinheads. Guess i could order on line.. 

Thanks again.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Nah, ordering online is kinda pointless - true pinheads don't seem to ship well (dehydrate really easily and need stable temps), and some companies sell crix as "pinheads" that are more like 1-2 weeks old - smaller than their next size up, but bigger than is useful to us!

Easier to get a couple dozen adults and breed them yourself, or, unfortunately, keep buying from him.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

If he's got decomposing lizards in the cages, thats a sanitary problem as well as cruelty to animals. I'm pretty sure cruelty to animals is illegal. Its also a health hazard for his customers to have rotting animals in open view of the public. Call the health inspector.

I guaruntee if he had dogs or cats in cages with no water and food they couldn't eat, he'd be in jail. I don't really see a difference.

Call your local police dept. and ask them what they think you should do. You could call PETA, but I hate those bastards.

I'm not sure how you could work in the Better Business Bureau, but they would also tear him a new one.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It has to do with specific animal regulations - the regulations for herps, if in the law, are usually very loose. He can easily say they were sick when he got them and they died. Cruelty to animals charged depend on the state/county, and usually are geared more towards mammals such as dogs, cats, and horses. We might not see a difference, but the law does. Herps have harder care, so usually herp death can just be passed off as that.

Calling PETA - like other animal rights groups, I don't think is a good idea. Remember, most of these groups are against us having these animals AT ALL. Sure, they will rip him a new one. Then use it to fuel legislation to make "exotic" animals illegal in that area. Don't fuel their fire.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2006)

Are you sure they are decomposing? Water dragons could appear to do that when they are perfeectly healthy. Water dragons need a huge water bowl. And they submerge themselves to 'hide' when they are stressed. Also they only poop in the water, nearly never on land. So say, the water is cloudy from poop and appears to have parts of flesh floating in it (Super worm parts), it is shedding, and it is hiding so it appears to be compleatly lifeless underwater. Water dragons could sleep all night under water. So that shows they could hold their breath quite a while. Just an idea.

[Shrugs]


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I just wanted to make a minor comment on the ff thing as I agree with the other comments on the store issue. 

I had been using the same line of ffs for over 4 years, and they just recently stopped producing. As much as it sucks I guess thats a good run. I ran multiple types so I just had to switch to one type until I get some new blood. Now has anyone had any luck refreshing a line like this say by mixing to sets of the same offspring together.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Now the weather is warming up here and the crickets are coming out again i will be breeding in my garage again.. I had to stop it in the house because 1) my wife was put off by the smell and 2) my wife freaked when my son had shown all his mates the adult crickets in the container, left the lid off, the crickets escaped and my then 1yr old daughter was found eating a handful she had caught. It also didn't go down very well when i responded in defence by saying that i thought it was great that our daughter obviously has lightning reflexes that young as it would be hard to catch that many so quickly!.. needless to say i have to wait for warm weather and space in the garage now.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

having malnurished animals with food they can't eat is neglect, which is also illeagle. if not properly takin care for, it can be considered animal abuse/neglect, which are pretty much illeagle everywhere.

thiers a site i found a while ago called http://www.pet-abuse.com
they have a database of abuse reports from all over the country and offer tons of info on how to go about reporting people/businesses to the proper authorities so a proper case can be filed against them by the proper authorities. Here is the page that details how to go about reporting a petshop for neglect/abuse of animals


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

Steve said:


> Now the weather is warming up here and the crickets are coming out again i will be breeding in my garage again.. I had to stop it in the house because 1) my wife was put off by the smell and 2) my wife freaked when my son had shown all his mates the adult crickets in the container, left the lid off, the crickets escaped and my then 1yr old daughter was found eating a handful she had caught. It also didn't go down very well when i responded in defence by saying that i thought it was great that our daughter obviously has lightning reflexes that young as it would be hard to catch that many so quickly!.. needless to say i have to wait for warm weather and space in the garage now.


Tell her it's a source of protien. 8)


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Thanks Zaroba.. thats exactly what i was after.. i will post my results as and when. Thanks everyone.

Steve


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Steve,

PETA type groups aren't what you are looking for here, I would recommend the following:

1. SPCA or Humane Society groups (not the national ones, but the local ones in LV). They often have a relationship with law enforcement and know the local animal cruelty laws. Many of them have been through an accreditation/certification process. Not only that, they often serve as expert witnesses and prepare evidence for courts.

Maybe: http://www.nevadaspca.org/
Or: http://www.lvvhumane.org/

2. Roll your own and look up the laws as Zaroba suggested above and see if you can find somebody with enforcement ability that is interested in the issue.

3. Better Business Bureau may or may not care, but you could ask.

I would go with #1 first, myself as it may save you a lot of time if they have enforcement officers they already know the laws.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

kyle1745 said:


> I just wanted to make a minor comment on the ff thing as I agree with the other comments on the store issue.
> 
> I had been using the same line of ffs for over 4 years, and they just recently stopped producing. As much as it sucks I guess thats a good run. I ran multiple types so I just had to switch to one type until I get some new blood. Now has anyone had any luck refreshing a line like this say by mixing to sets of the same offspring together.


I usually try to keep no less than 3 seperate cultures of the same fly type (all producing but at slightly seperate intervals). That way when their about half way into prodution you can take 10 or so from each culture and reintroduce once possibly divided gentics and restrengthin a dwindling line, or to just simply maintain and reasure the viability. There is no way to prevent furthur inbreeding into an already inbred creature, for that reason I still suggest buying fresh cultures at least once a year. There is no proof I know of to exist to substantiate the claim that poor genetics of the food can be reflected upon your frogs overal product-ability. But many variants play role, such as if the flies aquire a degrading trait through extensive inbreeding (sometimes because of enviromental restraints, such as cups) like a physical retardation of motivation it will indirectly effect the health, production and personality of the frog, they will literally become a couch potatoe version of a frog. Stimulation by having to chase or hunt directly effects overall health physically and mentally.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> It has to do with specific animal regulations - the regulations for herps, if in the law, are usually very loose. He can easily say they were sick when he got them and they died. Cruelty to animals charged depend on the state/county, and usually are geared more towards mammals such as dogs, cats, and horses. We might not see a difference, but the law does. Herps have harder care, so usually herp death can just be passed off as that...


I'm not sure where you worked, but at the big pet store chains I worked in as well as the smaller ones, animal cruelty is animal cruelty. Lizards, dogs, cats, hamsters, whatever, its all the same. Trust me, I had a bout with PETA on this issue once already. I'm still pissed about it.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> It has to do with specific animal regulations - the regulations for herps, if in the law, are usually very loose. He can easily say they were sick when he got them and they died. Cruelty to animals charged depend on the state/county, and usually are geared more towards mammals such as dogs, cats, and horses. We might not see a difference, but the law does. Herps have harder care, so usually herp death can just be passed off as that.



harder care is no excuse at all. thiers care sheets for pretty much every pet available. of all people, a petshop would surely have the money to set up a habitat to suit the animals needs to survive.

he could say they were sick and died, but that is also neglect. the animal still suffers when it could be treated by a vet and givin medicine.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Frogtofall said:


> KeroKero said:
> 
> 
> > It has to do with specific animal regulations - the regulations for herps, if in the law, are usually very loose. He can easily say they were sick when he got them and they died. Cruelty to animals charged depend on the state/county, and usually are geared more towards mammals such as dogs, cats, and horses. We might not see a difference, but the law does. Herps have harder care, so usually herp death can just be passed off as that...
> ...


I believe that Corey was speaking to the legal as opposed to ethical considerations of the situation. Unfortunately and to her point, there is often a gradient in how animal cruelty regulations are applied.

Bill


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Bill,

What I'm saying is that where I've worked, it applied the same to everything. It didn't matter what kind of animal it was. It could be a rat or $2000 bird.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

At this time, unless there is some specific local or state regulation specifically covering reptiles AND amphibians, there are no laws about cruelty to herps. (I am not getting into the ethical considerations here but am speaking specifically about the legal aspect of it. ) The ASPCA will investigate a report of cruelty but unless as I stated above a local or state regulation covering reptiles and Amphibians, they cannot enforce the regulation. 


Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I was sticking to the legal aspect - ethics wise I think it would be clear where I stand (with most of the people on this board) but to do anything about it you need to have something in the legal system to act on. Thus basically what I was getting at is what Ed stated above.


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