# Would you buy WC Lehmanni?



## markpulawski

Like him? Hate him? No matter how you answered he sure made us all think about the ethics of our hobby. Smuggling to the brink of extinction, well we've heard it from Mark Pepper and now Fred. Make your own decisions but I for one appreciate the heck out of Fred's comments.
Now the question, would I buy a group of Lehmanni if they were sitting in front of me....god I hate this answer but yes I would. That's the problem, how do I fix it?


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## poison beauties

Not that I can give a definate on whether I would buy such frogs but I do think the only truely helpfull thing we can do to keep this species alive is to breed the ones we have here in captivity even if they are iffy on the smuggled or not issue as we cant be sure on many of them. It is not our fault they are disapearing in the wild as they are shipped more heavily to the east than here I would think and the average hobbyists wont know a smuggled frog or line from a legally imported one. I personally think WE can't fix the problem, Its got to be done at ground zero where they are smuggled out.

Michael


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## Julio

most of it lies in the prob that we have very little self control when it comes to buying frogs i am pretty sure i woudl buy some Lehmanis if they were in my face as well.


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## slipperheads

Buying endangered species for the win!


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## SmackoftheGods

I'm in the same boat, Mark. I like Fred. I don't necessarily agree with all of his solutions (like creating a mandatory database of all legal frogs), but I do like people calling attention to the issue. Same time, I'd probably buy a lehmanni or a histrionicus if it were put in front of me....

The only solution I can come up with is to have a sustainable population of legal frogs. I think that if we get these frogs into the right hands it may just be a realistic goal in a few years too....


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## Julio

you will always be presented with the dilemma of shoudl i buy them and try and hope to get them to breed so there are more in the hobby or should i not and let them be harbored in horrible conditions or however they are being kept and let them waste away. back in the late 90s when all the bastis were coming in, how many of those really made it, even today with all the pumilios which legallity imported in large numbers, most animals importers house them in improper conditions and most of them perish.

Marcus from SNDFis across the street from a herp distributor and he goes in there from time to time to buy some pumilios just to save them from the conditions they are kept in.


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## james67

markpulawski said:


> Like him? Hate him? No matter how you answered he sure made us all think about the ethics of our hobby. Smuggling to the brink of extinction, well we've heard it from Mark Pepper and now Fred. Make your own decisions but I for one appreciate the heck out of Fred's comments.
> Now the question, would I buy a group of Lehmanni if they were sitting in front of me....god I hate this answer but yes I would. That's the problem, how do I fix it?


what, that group of 2.4 yellows i gave you wasnt good enough? 




poison beauties said:


> I would think and the average hobbyists wont know a smuggled frog or line from a legally imported one. Michael


i think that the people with the $$ and idea that they have the capabilities to care for a potentially $1000+ frog know full well what they are getting. wether or not they want to believe its WC is another question, but as far as lehmanii go, i dont think there is any ability to say "well i didnt know that these adult frogs were WC"

i dont believe that we should take the blame here and i think that this constant inquiry into the moral values of the hobby's stance on smuggled frogs is counter producticve at best. conversely we cant deny some responsibility, but i truly believe that on the world market it seems US froggers have a better time keeping away from questionable frogs than some europiean and asian hobbyists.

james


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## ChrisK

I kept trying to make myself like him, but he kept talking me out of it


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## poison beauties

james67 said:


> i think that the people with the $$ and idea that they have the capabilities to care for a potentially $1000+ frog know full well what they are getting. wether or not they want to believe its WC is another question, but as far as lehmanii go, i dont think there is any ability to say "well i didnt know that these adult frogs were WC"
> 
> james


The only problem with this is the average hobbyists arenot offered these wc frogs but they do see the offspring for sell now and then. When a smuggled line is laundered into a legal one its hard to track them and guarentee they are legal or not. Most dont go this far as once they are up for sale here CB they are considered fair game for many.
And as for WC its pretty easy to spot, I have had a few wc frogs and still do. Alot if not all never fully heal and have scaring, necrosis such as missing toes and they alot of them end up with nose rubs and other Identifyable markings to tell.

Michael


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## ChrisK

markpulawski said:


> how do I fix it?


You don't, in that case those specific frogs' lineage are doomed unless someone with the skills takes them and breeds the shiit out of them. It's not like you could make a _logical_ statement by turning down lehmanni - maybe a political one but it wouldn't be logical


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## poison beauties

ChrisK said:


> You don't, in that case those specific frogs' lineage are doomed unless someone with the skills takes them and breeds the shiit out of them. It's not like you could make a _logical_ statement by turning down lehmanni - maybe a political one but it wouldn't be logical



I agree, If you have the experience needed to breed and care for these frogs it would be I think the responcible thing to take them and do it as to prevent them from disapearing completely. While I have not knowingly excepted anything smuggled or even had any of these frogs listed above I would think they have to be put somewhere once here because if not they are dead and do no good for the future of their species. We can not stop them from getting smuggled out and once they do their only hope is a hobbyst who can properly care for them. Its a lose lose situation.

While I dont condone in any way buying from smugglers somthing has to be done with these rare frogs when they get here. Its not like F&W can properly care for them and if sent back they would never make it back to thier locales alive so what do you do? I say keep the species alive.

Michael


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## Boondoggle

Didn't hate him. I thought his point of view was interesting and I might feel a lot like he does if I were in Columbia seeing species disappear first hand. The problem is he approaches the situation as if it were black and white. It's a complex issue with a million shades of gray. He kept screaming "illegal", but legality means different things to different governments. He never did address the issues of what to do about legal histo's, quasi legal frogs, offspring of said frogs, where he would draw the line.

Registration and databases don't seem plausible as only law abiding citizens would take part in those programs, and they are not the problem. The only thing I can see really working is conservation through commercialization, and that's a sticky situation fraught with peril.

Would I buy the lehmanni? No I would not. Ethically I couldn't...but not because of the obvious reasons. I wouldn't buy the lehmanni because I am not confident I could breed them. Now the experienced guy with many years of difficult breeding success behind him...Legal, illegal, smuggled, whatever, if the frog is endangered and already in this country, then I want the frog in HIS hands, and I want them breeding.


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## Afemoralis

markpulawski said:


> Now the question, would I buy a group of Lehmanni if they were sitting in front of me....god I hate this answer but yes I would. That's the problem, how do I fix it?



I think there should be a lot of slack cut for people in a position of ignorance; those who don't know that the frogs are smuggled, or critically endangered. I say this believing that when folks are given the information they need to make the right choice for conservation, they will.

When people knowingly support smuggling or the sale of critically endangered wild-caught frogs it is a different thing. Not good for the frogs, the habitat, or the hobby. And while appreciate the honesty in the statement that started the thread, I think it means that the hobby, but more importantly the frog populations I am concerned about, are done for.

I would have an easy time saying no to smuggled frogs. And I'd love to have everyone else who feels the same way say so. Take a stand. This one is easy. It's about what is right and what is wrong. No gray. Say so.

Afemoralis


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## poison beauties

Then what should happen to what is smuggled in? These frogs are so rare that everyone counts. If noone accepts them they die.

Michael


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## Julio

poison beauties said:


> Then what should happen to what is smuggled in? These frogs are so rare that everyone counts. If noone accepts them they die.
> 
> Michael


that is the catch 22, shoudl we turn our heads and let them perish, or buy them and try and breed them?


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## poison beauties

Julio said:


> that is the catch 22, shoudl we turn our heads and let them perish, or buy them and try and breed them?


I dont think there is any option, we should collect and preserve them once they are here. They will go ''atleast a few species'' extinct in the wild and then whats here is whats here. the species needs to be preserved.
Now I think that smuggling should be stopped but it need to happen where it starts. We can say no to the frogs but they will die. We cant stop it from here.

Michael


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## Boondoggle

Afemoralis said:


> It's about what is right and what is wrong. No gray.


Then maybe I don't understand the question. When you say "smuggled frogs", are you referring to only frogs that were physically smuggled across borders, are you referring also to their offspring? How about frogs whose captive population is 90% smuggled but 10% legit? If that 10% makes it impossible to identify the smuggled population, would the species be better off banned? Should it be? If offspring of smuggled frogs should be banned, does that still hold true if they breed prolifically? What if they have already bred prolifically? What if they have bred prolifically, but it's in a different country? Does the amount of time that the species has been in the hobby play a part? What if the animal is not actually endangered, does that make a difference? If the country that the frogs are moved to legalizes them, are they still smuggled, or are they now legal? If the answer is "smuggled", what should be done with them? Should they be confiscated and euthanized? Is the argument that "sometimes animals whose habitats are doomed should be saved" completely invalid. Is the issue a legal or ethical issue? Ethically, wouldn't it be better if none of kept PDF's?

Unless you answered "yes" or "no" to every one of these questions, then it IS an issue with varying degrees of gray. The best way to fail at solving a complex problem is to treat it like a simple one.

I think we all agree that if we had our way, none of these animals would be endangered in nature, and they all would be available in the hobby...but to approach the issue like that would be unrealistically idealistic. So would a blanket "just say no" program. It doesn't address any of the questions above. 

...and for the record, because of my personal feelings on conservation I intentionally do not purchase WC animals, let alone smuggled ones.


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## Afemoralis

poison beauties said:


> They will go ''atleast a few species'' extinct in the wild and then whats here is whats here. the species needs to be preserved.



Why preserve them? If they are collected to the point of going extinct in the wild, then the lineage is dead. No chance of "reintroduction", no "genetic diversity" arguments, none of it... at that point all the conservation arguments in the world don't work. You have driven the species to functional extinction and are keeping it alive out of pure herpetoculturist vanity. At that point just go breed "snowflake" or "candy corn" dendrobatids... your "rescued" endangered frog has become just a trophy.

If you are concerned about what happens to smuggled rare frogs, then you get the smugglers/sellers busted. You get TWI or another group to have a plan and network in place to get the frogs from the feds and keep the dehydrated, scarred and damaged frogs stabilized and breeding. You sure don't purchase anything from the dirtbags who have gotten them into the country- it continues the cycle. YOU ARE THE MARKET IN THIS COUNTRY. IF YOU DONT BUY THEM THERE IS NO MARKET.

I'll step out of this conversation now, I'm rehashing what should be obvious, and I'm not trying to insult anyones intelligence. If you want to buy smuggled frogs you know how it happens- but don't make any claims of doing it for conservation or the well-being of the frogs.

Afemoralis


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## Afemoralis

Boondoggle said:


> Then maybe I don't understand the question. When you say "smuggled frogs", are you referring to only frogs that were physically smuggled across borders, are you referring also to their offspring?


My arguments are based around WC, smuggled frogs- which I think people in this thread are saying they would still buy. I admit to hefty amounts of gray on the other issues that you raise.

Afemoralis


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## Boondoggle

Afemoralis said:


> Why preserve them? If they are collected to the point of going extinct in the wild, then the lineage is dead. No chance of "reintroduction", no "genetic diversity" arguments, none of it... at that point all the conservation arguments in the world don't work. You have driven the species to functional extinction and are keeping it alive out of pure herpetoculturist vanity. At that point just go breed "snowflake" or "candy corn" dendrobatids... your "rescued" endangered frog has become just a trophy.


What you are saying is that an animal is lost in nature, but saved in captivity then it valueless. I think the Arabian oryx, Pere David's deer, Guam rail and European bison would disagree (all reintroduced species). I realize frogs are trickier and reintroduction isn't the goal, but to consider them valueless and only herpetoculturist vanity at that point? I respect your opinion on that, but it's a pretty extreme one. Two words...Mountain Chicken. 



Afemoralis said:


> If you are concerned about what happens to smuggled rare frogs, then you get the smugglers/sellers busted. You get TWI or another group to have a plan and network in place to get the frogs from the feds and keep the dehydrated, scarred and damaged frogs stabilized and breeding. You sure don't purchase anything from the dirtbags who have gotten them into the country- it continues the cycle. YOU ARE THE MARKET IN THIS COUNTRY. IF YOU DONT BUY THEM THERE IS NO MARKET.


I agree with everything you just said there.



Afemoralis said:


> I'll step out of this conversation now, I'm rehashing what should be obvious, and I'm not trying to insult anyones intelligence. If you want to buy smuggled frogs you know how it happens- but don't make any claims of doing it for conservation or the well-being of the frogs.


Well, before you go, can you at least acknowledge my previous post since you sort of did quote me.

*Edit: Sorry, you did acknowledge me while I was typing the above.


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## sbreland

markpulawski said:


> Now the question, would I buy a group of Lehmanni if they were sitting in front of me....god I hate this answer but yes I would. That's the problem, how do I fix it?


Mark,
Congrats for saying what just about everyone here is thinking but most don't have the GUTS to admit. Sometimes the hypocritical discussions here of people preaching while they look over at frogs IN THEIR COLLECTION that they are preaching against just pisses me off. Congrats for once again proving that you are an honest man and if everyone could be as honest as you just were maybe we could get somewhere with this. As far as how to kick the little devil off your shoulder... well, I don't know that very many people ever will be able to...


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## poison beauties

Afemoralis said:


> Why preserve them? If they are collected to the point of going extinct in the wild, then the lineage is dead. No chance of "reintroduction", no "genetic diversity" arguments, none of it... at that point all the conservation arguments in the world don't work. You have driven the species to functional extinction and are keeping it alive out of pure herpetoculturist vanity. At that point just go breed "snowflake" or "candy corn" dendrobatids... your "rescued" endangered frog has become just a trophy.
> 
> If you are concerned about what happens to smuggled rare frogs, then you get the smugglers/sellers busted. You get TWI or another group to have a plan and network in place to get the frogs from the feds and keep the dehydrated, scarred and damaged frogs stabilized and breeding. You sure don't purchase anything from the dirtbags who have gotten them into the country- it continues the cycle. YOU ARE THE MARKET IN THIS COUNTRY. IF YOU DONT BUY THEM THERE IS NO MARKET.
> 
> I'll step out of this conversation now, I'm rehashing what should be obvious, and I'm not trying to insult anyones intelligence. If you want to buy smuggled frogs you know how it happens- but don't make any claims of doing it for conservation or the well-being of the frogs.
> 
> Afemoralis


Ok, First of all when the hell did I make a claim that BUYING these frogs from smugglers is for conservation? If you want to go toe to toe on this we can. Fact: the frogs will not stop coming in until the country of origin stops them from getting out. I have said in EVERY post I do not condone smuggleing in any way though I did state the frogs should be collected. I would turn in any smuggler and believe it or not I would turn in the frogs as well. Personally I have too much to lose from dealing with anything of that nature nor would my personality let me. I do not think any organization could benefit the issue by taking the frogs and puting them into breeding programs. These rare frogs need to go straight into the hands of highly experienced quality breeders who have first hands knowledge of these frogs and their needs, I could give a few names if you like,
and second of all your statement of IF YOU DONT BUY THEM THERE IS NO MARKET. is bull as they will still come and seek new buyers not to mention other countries where it is easier to sell them. There is NO stopping this problem from here, It has to start at GROUND ZERO where the frogs live. There are other factors that play into the endangerment of these species as well so yes we need to cherish everyfrog that makes it here legal or not as we very well could be keeping this species from going extinct in the future. As for reintroduction? Dont be stupid. Their habitats are disapearing and our breeding practices for the most are not in the right management for this anyways. Anything produced here should be cataloged and put out to other quality breeders or zoo's to work with and keep the species alive.

Michael


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## skylsdale

Laundered animals are in the hobby...it is what it is (and people give each other virtual high fives on here all the time for obtaining them, and many folks probably don't even know that the species they're keeping was never legally exported from the host country).

But starting at this point in time we can decide to go a different direction. Stay away from knowingly suspect WC frogs, or European imports of knowingly suspect frogs.

As far as purchasing lehmanni (or any other species), knowing it was illegal, and perhaps even knowing that the species was probably extirpated in the wild, I think the justification of "well if I don't buy them, they'll die anyway...so I might as well" is misguided. People on this board have been chastened for using the same logic for purchasing frogs at pet stores. If you keep buying the frog, REGARDLESS of your personal reasons, you keep creating the demand and the market for the seller. Period. Once one population/species is gone in the wild, they'll just move to collecting another one.


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## Boondoggle

poison beauties said:


> ...There is NO stopping this problem from here, It has to start at GROUND ZERO where the frogs live.


You think talking froggers into boycotting smugglers is tough? Try convincing impoverished people that's the world needs the rain forests more than they need their next meal. I don't see that working either. I don't think corrupt third world governments are going to help much either. I just don't see that as realistically happening.


poison beauties said:


> As for reintroduction? Dont be stupid.l


Yikes. That ramped up the hostility. Afemoralis didn't advocate reintroduction in any of his posts. In fact I think the only one that said anything that could be interpreted as advocating reintroduction was me. I was speaking hypothetically.


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## sbreland

*This post is not directed at anyone in particular.... it's directed to everyone*
If we all want to be honest with each other then why don't we all admit that there is NOTHING that can be done to stop smuggling except guide our own morals on the situation. I believe it's the host countries problem but seriously, with a gajillion (however much that is) kilos of coke going out of Colombia a year, do you think frogs are REALLY their priority? Do you think that some debate on a frog board is going to persuade them to jump on this situation? Do you think the local that is barely able to feed his family is going to be persuaded by ANY bleeding heart story when the promise of a payday and food on the table is in front of him? Do you think that EVERY hobbiest and dart frog keeper in the known world reads Dendroboard and is going to be persuaded to not buy lehmanni if they are "likely" smuggled in? Do you think that everyone even cares? Here's the point... I don't care what you do but you will never stop smuggling... period. Smuggling (in one form or another) has been around for THOUSANDS of years... what makes you (not directed at anyone in particular... just the community as a whole) think you are going to change the world and magically end it? Most people think that killing whales is a pretty bad idea but does it still happen?? YES! Point is this, you can't control what other people do... from the campiesano (sp?) to the kid at the local frog show you CANNOT and will not control their actions... period. The ONLY thing you can do is set your own moral standards and be true to them and hopefully your examples will rub off on someone and spread. This arguement is noble, but for God's sake, let's be realistic here...


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## poison beauties

Let me say before I state anything that I did not and do not wish to turn this hostile like both of freds threads... I was tired and while Im sure some of it was directed towards me I could have replied abit more respectable. To late now, so I will move on.
Talking froggers into boycotting these frogs is a good plan but it wont stop them from coming. Once they are smuggled out they will come here and other countries whether we want them or not. There will allways be someone new wanting these frogs so whether its hard to stop smuggling at the source or not that is where it must be done to completely end the problem. The fact is many frogs will be extinct soon enough due to other situations and that only puts pressure on us to start a successfull breeding program with what is here and it needs to be started with the most experienced breeders around not a newly formed group as these mentioned species are prized by many as the best of the best and it there was ever a frog to use as a learning example as to what all of these issues and more lead to then these are the frogs to do that. Keeping them alive in captivity and puting them within view to the many people who enjoy them will serve as a visual aid as to what is disapearing in the wild.. 
I personally would not buy a smuggled frog and I will turn in anyone who offers them to me knowing they were illegally obtained. There are alot of factors to this issue and to be honest I think many of these frogs will disappear before anything concrete is done to stop smuggling for good.
I have made my opinions on this and will not reply any further. Sorry to heat up your thread Mark.

Michael


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## markpulawski

OK here's the rub, would I buy a group of lehmanni if they were sitting in front of me, yes. I certainly have the ability to keep them alive, perhaps even breed them. Would I send e-mails to people in Europe, saying I want lehmanni, find them and ship them as say...."toys", no I would not. Would I put out feelers saying I want lehmanni, someone find a supply, no I would not. Who knows, maybe 6 months ago i would have (trust me I did not), but hearing the things Fred said made me think enough about my actions to at least say..."don't seek out these animals, don't create a demand to fill" as we know some here in US are doing and who knows perhaps Fred has gotten them to think as well.
We have all heard horror stories about what the germans did to the Vanzo population, Standard Lamasi, Varadero, Summersi etc and now 1000 of this and 1000 of that out of Colombia, so much so that now the order says 1000 but I can only find 8. Will I get rid of the Vanzo's i did not get from Mark Pepper or the Standard Lamasi group I have, no but I will hopefully breed the heck out of them so there will be no need for more smuggling and hopefully remnant populations out there may be able to recover (and yes I know these will continued to be smuggled, especially since i hear St lamasi are very scarce in Europe again).
Mark Pepper's model works so well, if people are are paying $1000 each for lehmanni & $500 - $600 for Histo's man would that model accelerate. It's really too bad these species can not be managed that way in other countries as there would be huge incentive $$ wise to preserve and maintain these species and their habitat.

1 final thought....do I think these frogs are doomed, under the current circumstances yes. If there was a plan in place to ensure the viability of habitat and species would I support it, ABSOLUTLEY.


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## iljjlm

sbreland said:


> Point is this, you can't control what other people do... from the campiesano (sp?) to the kid at the local frog show you CANNOT and will not control their actions... period.


*This reply is not directed at you, I just used your quote*

Indirectly you can control their actions (kid at the frog show, not the campesino). If you see any lehmanni at a show, you can almost be 100% sure they are smuggled. I say almost 100% because I do not know if they were ever brought into the US legally. If they were, the ones that still have them from decades ago and are able to breed them would not sell them at a show. They would sell/trade them to other experienced breeders that they know. Anyways, back the person selling them at shows. I or I hope you(everyone who does not believe in smuggled frogs) would find the shows director and report that the vendor if selling smuggled animals. I would then think that they would be removed from the show. 
Now the kid at the local frog show cannot buy a smuggled frog.

Dave


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## Roadrunner

They won`t keep bringing them here if they make no money. Has anyone ever been to Colombia? How do you propose they keep all those animals from being smuggled out of the country? The only way to stop it is from shunning people who buy from suspect sources and turning in people who are currently selling recently smuggled frogs or their offspring. I coudl`nt keep frogs from being smuggled off my property and it`s only a couple acres.


poison beauties said:


> Ok, First of all when the hell did I make a claim that BUYING these frogs from smugglers is for conservation? If you want to go toe to toe on this we can. Fact: the frogs will not stop coming in until the country of origin stops them from getting out. I have said in EVERY post I do not condone smuggleing in any way though I did state the frogs should be collected. I would turn in any smuggler and believe it or not I would turn in the frogs as well. Personally I have too much to lose from dealing with anything of that nature nor would my personality let me. I do not think any organization could benefit the issue by taking the frogs and puting them into breeding programs. These rare frogs need to go straight into the hands of highly experienced quality breeders who have first hands knowledge of these frogs and their needs, I could give a few names if you like,
> and second of all your statement of IF YOU DONT BUY THEM THERE IS NO MARKET. is bull as they will still come and seek new buyers not to mention other countries where it is easier to sell them. There is NO stopping this problem from here, It has to start at GROUND ZERO where the frogs live. There are other factors that play into the endangerment of these species as well so yes we need to cherish everyfrog that makes it here legal or not as we very well could be keeping this species from going extinct in the future. As for reintroduction? Dont be stupid. Their habitats are disapearing and our breeding practices for the most are not in the right management for this anyways. Anything produced here should be cataloged and put out to other quality breeders or zoo's to work with and keep the species alive.
> 
> Michael


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## Roadrunner

What I see is a lot of people trying to justify their lack of research into buying frogs of suspect origin. It`s like saying" someone is going to buy them and I want them so if everyone doesn`t stop buying them, I don`t want to miss out." I for one am waiting till they come in legally. This argument is basically trying to make people give up. Even though it looks bleak at times I`ll never give up the idea that smuggling can be stopped, it just takes effort and education. This board has divulged tons of info on how to keep and breed darts and look how many can do that now. All this boards has to do is decide they want to do the right thing and it can be accomplished. Maybe not every hobbyist in the US but enough to change things. If they are afraid of getting caught or loosing money, we win and they stop. Since no names can be mentioned though, it unfortunately has to be done by vendor inquiry.



sbreland said:


> *This post is not directed at anyone in particular.... it's directed to everyone*
> If we all want to be honest with each other then why don't we all admit that there is NOTHING that can be done to stop smuggling except guide our own morals on the situation. I believe it's the host countries problem but seriously, with a gajillion (however much that is) kilos of coke going out of Colombia a year, do you think frogs are REALLY their priority? Do you think that some debate on a frog board is going to persuade them to jump on this situation? Do you think the local that is barely able to feed his family is going to be persuaded by ANY bleeding heart story when the promise of a payday and food on the table is in front of him? Do you think that EVERY hobbiest and dart frog keeper in the known world reads Dendroboard and is going to be persuaded to not buy lehmanni if they are "likely" smuggled in? Do you think that everyone even cares? Here's the point... I don't care what you do but you will never stop smuggling... period. Smuggling (in one form or another) has been around for THOUSANDS of years... what makes you (not directed at anyone in particular... just the community as a whole) think you are going to change the world and magically end it? Most people think that killing whales is a pretty bad idea but does it still happen?? YES! Point is this, you can't control what other people do... from the campiesano (sp?) to the kid at the local frog show you CANNOT and will not control their actions... period. The ONLY thing you can do is set your own moral standards and be true to them and hopefully your examples will rub off on someone and spread. This arguement is noble, but for God's sake, let's be realistic here...


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## MeiKVR6

Here's an example - I've been trying to find a legitimately captive bred Scaphiophryne gottlebei for a while now. I don't think they've actually been successfully bred in captivity yet and I accept that. They ARE critically endangered and therefore I can't in good conscious buy one that's WC - _regardless of it's legality_. If some government body said it was LEGAL (these are sold openly in the USA, anyways) I still wouldn't just because it's in my opinion wrong. That's why even tho I could get one TOMORROW - I won't!

Conservationism has many, many, many shades of gray. There's no clear cut answer. The only "wrong" answer is strict government intrusion (forced registrations, lists, confiscations) in the USA and other end-markets. Then we'll end up with illegal and likely DEAD frogs. Those that are being bred in captivity could potentially be indirectly euthanized by law. (Think: How do you sell/move an illegal frog when it's actually punishable?)

Supply & demand...
Buying an illegal frog from a smuggler: Wrong. Direct Supply/Demand.
Buying an illegal frog from a smuggler with intentions of breeding: Still creating a demand... Although once bred in captivity the demand will go down.
Buying offspring from a smuggled parent: Still arguably creating a demand for the initially smuggled animal - but once it's bred - the demand WILL go down for smuggled animals... Right?

At what point does the frog's offspring become "OK"? F1? F2? Never? The entire line is doomed to illegality? 

The problem is NOT the demand in my opinion - there will always be demand. Same school of thought - "don't buy a dog from a pet store". Yeah the enthusiasts and real dog lovers might get the picture - but the everyday "I wanna dog" guy?  He's heading over to puppy mill central to get himself a puppy! It's impossible to fight the idiot who says, "That frog I saw on the 'net is gorgeous - where can I get one?!?!" So the logical step is to stop the smuggler/supply - not the consumer/demand.

Here's a way to look at it: Should we condemn people who buy these frogs with _good intentions_? Do you hate the guy who takes great care of his puppy-mill dog? Hell no - you give the dog a nice pat on the head and go about your day. 

Edit: That doesn't mean we should stop spreading the word about all this. It's our job to try and educate those who don't know to try and slow demand 'till the supply can be stopped.


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## ETwomey

I can't believe some of the logic being spouted forth in this thread. Sea, thank you for coming in and trying to make it obvious, but apparently people aren't reading.

If you buy a WC lehmanni, you are supporting smuggling, case closed. Maybe you think you are doing a noble thing and that you are somehow going to breed the hell out of this species (when no one else can) and eliminate all need for future smuggled specimens.

Forget it. Delusions of grandeur. All you are trying to do is justify what you know to be wrong.

All you are doing is saying to the smugglers "Hey guys, keep doing what you're doing, because people are buying your frogs."

...

In the Iquitos market here in Peru, you can find redfoot tortoises alive and upside-down awaiting slaughter, pygmy marmosets chained to tables, and any number of wildlife travesties you could imagine. Part of me wants to buy these animals and set them free. But the logical part of my brain realizes that if I buy a pygmy marmoset I just created a demand, and the trappers will go out the next day and catch one, or two, more to fill that demand I just created. Come on guys, this one is easy.


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## MeiKVR6

^^^

Lets be really unrealistically optimistic and say that 99% of the people think like you and I do - and they won't buy the animals because they understand they've created a demand. It only takes 1% of consumers to create a demand. Do we go after and punish the arguably unaware 1% who bought the animals? Or the many of smugglers/poachers who did the illegal deed to begin with?


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## Roadrunner

BOTH! And then they`ll never do it again and they`ll tell other people what they know.


MeiKVR6 said:


> ^^^
> 
> Lets be really unrealistically optimistic and say that 99% of the people think like you and I do - and they won't buy the animals because they understand they've created a demand. It only takes 1% of consumers to create a demand. Do we go after and punish the arguably unaware 1% who bought the animals? Or the many of smugglers/poachers who did the illegal deed to begin with?


----------



## swampfoxjjr

This forum, and any internet based forum where strangers who share a common interest congregate, should be a place to share knowledge and experience and get better as a group. Do you all know what you have done over the last month? Have you stopped smuggling? Have you even come close to bettering the "morals and ethics" of this community?

Absolutely not. Instead, you have created a blacklist of extremely experienced keepers and breeders. Instead, you have further isolated an already hesitant group of people who have an untold wealth of knowledge on obligate egg feeder care. Are we all better for it? Did your baseless accusations accomplish a single thing?

You all have left this hobby in a deeper hole than it was already in. Those of you who called fish and wildlife on your fellow enthusiasts are DIRECTLY responsible for the legislation that is going to put all of this forum's sponsors out of business. For what; so you can ride a moral highhorse on a faceless internet forum. For the good of amphibians worldwide? Please. Where are the bulk of the Histrionicus and even Lehmanni going? The answer is Europe and now Asia. How do you plan to stem the flow of animals to countries you have less than zero impact upon?

In all honesty, 98% of the people on this forum don't have a clue how to even go about acquiring these animals. Your supply and demand arguments are absolutely ridiculous. You are talking about such a tiny subsegment of this country's population. If the Petsmarts of the world were selling these animals you MIGHT have an argument but at present it is just a ridiculous thing to say.

In closing, the last month of crusading by the members of this forum has accomplished one single thing. You have fostered and bolstered the already significant segment of this hobby that has no further stomach for dealing with this board. You have added more members to the underground where the real work and knowledge of the dendrobatid hobby is being done. Congratulations. You should be thrilled.


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## poison beauties

frogfarm said:


> BOTH! And then they`ll never do it again and they`ll tell other people what they know.


The problem is catching them.... Its kept quiet for the most part. I will tell you what though, Posting the info on who has been caught with what and the punishments handed out would go further to teach than just words of wisdom. I personally dont know of local situations where smugglers have been caught with these frogs.

Michael


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## MeiKVR6

frogfarm said:


> BOTH! And then they`ll never do it again and they`ll tell other people what they know.


I can't say I disagree - however what happens to the illegally smuggled frogs? The government gives them to...? Underfunded Zoos? Or... Private institutions? Then they are branded "legal" although the wild populations are decimated? The REAL problem isn't fixed. The problem isn't these frogs being sold in the USA - the problem is where they are coming from. The smugglers caught in the USA get what? 1 year probation? "OOoooohhhh the USA threatens us with a $600 fine and 100 days community service - we better not smuggle the $10,000 worth of animals!" It's crap!

Our government will never give anyone any real punishment for buying potentially smuggled animals - or especially offspring of potentially smuggled animals. While that might be good - it's unrealistic. If they DO choose to do something like that - they'd likely take a nuclear weapon to fix a problem that requires a set of tweezers. (Forced registrations, permits, regulations of ALL exotic pets, etc...) If we could see a law address this single issue without the government overstepping the line - I'd agree completely. Even then - we'd be forcing some good breeders with excellent intentions underground and away from the mainstream where their knowledge is really needed.


----------



## Ed

swampfoxjjr said:


> Absolutely not. Instead, you have created a blacklist of extremely experienced keepers and breeders. Instead, you have further isolated an already hesitant group of people who have an untold wealth of knowledge on obligate egg feeder care. Are we all better for it? Did your baseless accusations accomplish a single thing?


I have a lot of doubt that the recent discussions pushed a lot of those with a lot of experience in egg feeders any further from this or any other forum. If they had chosen to not participate before now, they are still going to not participate. 



swampfoxjjr said:


> You all have left this hobby in a deeper hole than it was already in. Those of you who called fish and wildlife on your fellow enthusiasts are DIRECTLY responsible for the legislation that is going to put all of this forum's sponsors out of business.


Are you putting this forth as an opinion or a fact? If you are passing it off as a fact then there isn't any proof that this is the case and it is pretty much fear mongering. There has been sufficient legislation to deal with any illegal animals already on the books that includes fairly draconian penalties (look at the Lacey act penalities). The other legislation that has people up in the air is being funded by multibillion dollar groups like Defenders of Wildlife and HSUS... 



swampfoxjjr said:


> In closing, the last month of crusading by the members of this forum has accomplished one single thing. You have fostered and bolstered the already significant segment of this hobby that has no further stomach for dealing with this board. You have added more members to the underground where the real work and knowledge of the dendrobatid hobby is being done. Congratulations. You should be thrilled.


See my comment above. In this scenario, the only apparent viable alternative is to turn a blind eye to any and all problems or else the really experienced will go underground and avoid all contact with the forum.. All fear mongering does is prevent freedom of discussion. 

Zoos have been dealing with these problems for a long long time and so far the only scenario that has been found to work to date starts on the ground in the country of origin. 
This has to occur in several states 

1) country of origin has to begin to enforce thier laws and allocate the resources towards this enforcement 
2) the affected population has to be shown that the indiscriminate harvesting of the animals or destruction of the habitat is a net loss for them. 
3) a system has to be set up that allows the affected population to benefit as a money making industry off of either the ecosystem as a whole or the animal in question under regulated circumstances (this can be totally sponsored by the country alone or by a joint collaboration of outside interests or a combination of both the country and outside interests). Examples are ecotourism, or some form of controlled export of products (not necessarily the animal itself but related materials (say blowguns etc..) 
4)outside affected countries have to step up enforcement of the illegally trafficked materials and/or animals 

5) In this case and this case only, some form of sustainable harvest. This can be captive bred in a controlled situation or a sustained harvesting of wild frogs or both but it must be controlled and it also needs to benefit the locals where the frogs live in some way or the result is that there is still pressure to smuggle the frogs or cut down the habitat. 

Ed


----------



## swampfoxjjr

Thanks, Ed. I will miss these responses from you. It has been a pleasure reading your work over the years. Always factual and logical.


----------



## sbreland

swampfoxjjr said:


> This forum, and any internet based forum where strangers who share a common interest congregate, should be a place to share knowledge and experience and get better as a group. Do you all know what you have done over the last month? Have you stopped smuggling? Have you even come close to bettering the "morals and ethics" of this community?
> 
> Absolutely not. Instead, you have created a blacklist of extremely experienced keepers and breeders. Instead, you have further isolated an already hesitant group of people who have an untold wealth of knowledge on obligate egg feeder care. Are we all better for it? Did your baseless accusations accomplish a single thing?
> 
> You all have left this hobby in a deeper hole than it was already in. Those of you who called fish and wildlife on your fellow enthusiasts are DIRECTLY responsible for the legislation that is going to put all of this forum's sponsors out of business. For what; so you can ride a moral highhorse on a faceless internet forum. For the good of amphibians worldwide? Please. Where are the bulk of the Histrionicus and even Lehmanni going? The answer is Europe and now Asia. How do you plan to stem the flow of animals to countries you have less than zero impact upon?
> 
> In all honesty, 98% of the people on this forum don't have a clue how to even go about acquiring these animals. Your supply and demand arguments are absolutely ridiculous. You are talking about such a tiny subsegment of this country's population. If the Petsmarts of the world were selling these animals you MIGHT have an argument but at present it is just a ridiculous thing to say.
> 
> In closing, the last month of crusading by the members of this forum has accomplished one single thing. You have fostered and bolstered the already significant segment of this hobby that has no further stomach for dealing with this board. You have added more members to the underground where the real work and knowledge of the dendrobatid hobby is being done. Congratulations. You should be thrilled.


Bingo... I'd like to pick out certain sections that are absolutely correct, but you hit it on the head with EVERYTHING.

Look, Aaron, you reemphasize my point with what you say... the only way to make any difference is to change you OWN personal ethics. You made the change... good. Now you will not buy any potentially smuggled frogs... BUT, you will never change everyone's. This board represents such a small subsect of this hobby and it mostly only represents this country... as stated, how many illegally obtained WC histos are coming in directly from Colombia to the US? Don't know, but I guess the answer is close to none. Now coming in from Europe after being sent out of Colombia... there's a more likely scenario. Tell me exactly how your moral crusade is great for you and those that you influence, but you will NEVER influence the people in Europe or Asia, so how much good are you really doing?? Do the right thing for you... do the right thing for the frogs and MAYBE someday this attitude will spread far enough to make a difference... but don't count on it. SUPPORT 100% efforts like Mark's and encourage efforts like it to be undertaken in Colombia (yes, I know logistically it's likely impossible, but people said the same about Peru before Mark... it just takes time and effort). The answer to "How do we stop smuggling" is... don't be an idiot, you never will. There will ALWAYS be a demand because your message will NEVER reach everyone so the demand will always be there. Thinking that you can stop the American hobby's demand is about as logical as saying you could swim down in the ocean and put your thumb in the oil leak and it will all be over with... ridiculous. It's not going to happen... you're going to miss way too many people, plus, you forget that there are people that DON"T WANT to hear this arguement or agree with you... you aren't going to change them. As for the arguement about the lehmanni on the table at the frog show... jesus, can we be a little less literal and realize this is never happening?? If I must spell it out so it's easier to see the point, here ya go... these frogs come in by a variety of channels and are often only released to the elite froggers in the country (who most could give a shit about this board so never hear your arguement and wouldn't care anyways) or they are offered to the importers friends. The red heads last year are an anomaly and are DEFINITELY not the norm... it just happened because someone bought more than they were able to get rid of behind the scenes. Now, who do you think has more influence on these potential buyers, you who they've never met or only know through this frog board with your preachy ideals or their friend who they've known for awhile and trust. I know the answer... do you have your rose colored glasses on tight enough to deny it? Look man, change yourself (which it sounds like you've done) and change your friends... in turn they will change their's and so on but it will be a SLOW process and then you will have a large subsect of the American hobby on your side, but there will ALWAYS still be those there who are not. It's a fact and no matter how hard you want to deny it that doesn't change it. Aaron, this post isn't completely directed at you but anyone who thinks this way. The rose colored glasses are cool but unrealistic and that's what my previous post said... lets be reaslistic. Support Mark and his projects and any others that appear and keep your personal morals strong... that's the key. If you want to change the world all the luck to you but think about how well the guy knocking at your front door preaching religion is received... not very well. I respect you Aaron and the changes you made but I just can't and won't agree with the rose colored glasses approach about 55% of the people on here seem to take. I believe in the efforts being done down there but there will always be a problem and that's a fact... you can't reach everyone.


----------



## Ed

MeiKVR6 said:


> I can't say I disagree - however what happens to the illegally smuggled frogs? The government gives them to...? Underfunded Zoos? Or... Private institutions?


It depends on where they are discovered and confiscated. If it is at the border the shipment is refused, the country of origin is notified and it is sent back while those who are trying to smuggle them in are questioned and possibly detained. 

If it is after they have gotten into the country then they can be confiscated and held at a Zoo. In the USA this does not make them legal as USF&W has to release them or thier offspring (and this often doesn't happen). There are animals in Zoos that are the property of USF&W and they and thier offspring have been that way for decades. 



MeiKVR6 said:


> The smugglers caught in the USA get what? 1 year probation? "OOoooohhhh the USA threatens us with a $600 fine and 100 days community service - we better not smuggle the $10,000 worth of animals!" It's crap!


The goverment breaks it down into a couple of different subsections. If you read through the flow chart and article and substitute frog everywhere it says wood you will see the risk and penalties http://www.eia-global.org/lacey/P6.EIA.LaceyReport.pdf 

for example if you are aware that frogs from country x are illegal and still get them from country y, regardless of paperwork then you are open to signficiant fines. Anyone who is active in the hobby or present in the hobby for any real period of time is going to have a hard time proving that they were not knowledgable.. 

Ed


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## markpulawski

Certainly with the species we are discussing here you are absolutely right, breeding enough to sustain anything or anyone is unrealistic, breeding them to just get a handful may even be too optimistic. Looking at the bulk of the species available in the hobby, thank goodness they are mostly easily bred as I would estimate that 50% are of unknown or illegal backgrounds, would the smugglers be wiping out BY Tincs, Terribilis if they bred like Histo's or Lehmanni..probably. I did not say it was right when I said if lehmanni were laid out in front of me I would buy them, even with the understanding of the circumstances. Now multiply that by the thousands in Asia and Europe in the hobby with no regard for the circumstances, what do we do. 
A program of sustainability, is it possible, is it too late already I don't know. What I do know for a certainty is that I am glad Fred came on this board and made the points that he did. When I went to Colombia in the mid 90's i suggested to some people that we buy the land where the Lehmanni exist and try and conserve the forest there (at that time about half was pasture), I was told you would be throwing away your money as those around that land would continue to turn it into pasture with no regard as to who owned it. I hope that has changed since, certainly the demand for these animals will always be there as long as human nature exists.

QUOTE=Ric Sanchez;476453]I can't believe some of the logic being spouted forth in this thread. Sea, thank you for coming in and trying to make it obvious, but apparently people aren't reading.

If you buy a WC lehmanni, you are supporting smuggling, case closed. Maybe you think you are doing a noble thing and that you are somehow going to breed the hell out of this species (when no one else can) and eliminate all need for future smuggled specimens.

Forget it. Delusions of grandeur. All you are trying to do is justify what you know to be wrong.

All you are doing is saying to the smugglers "Hey guys, keep doing what you're doing, because people are buying your frogs."

...

In the Iquitos market here in Peru, you can find redfoot tortoises alive and upside-down awaiting slaughter, pygmy marmosets chained to tables, and any number of wildlife travesties you could imagine. Part of me wants to buy these animals and set them free. But the logical part of my brain realizes that if I buy a pygmy marmoset I just created a demand, and the trappers will go out the next day and catch one, or two, more to fill that demand I just created. Come on guys, this one is easy.[/QUOTE]


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## Ed

Hi Mark,

It is still possible but it will only work if the Colombian goverment gets involved on the ground level. It can be successful up until the last area is clear cut. The current problem is that there isn't any real risk to the smugglers taking the frogs out of the country, the locals only see them as a one time quick buck and see not other value in the frogs. 

Ed


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## fred

I see that i'm honored to be named in a thread..

Well, I actually don't care much about what people think of me, and I was quite done with this forum, specially when I hear things like: 'Noone outside these borders orders us around'..
It was never my intention, or even in any way possible for me to order anyone around here.

I will give only one reaction here, cause i don't want to get involved into the same uncivilized shouting like the other two threads.

Why is the keeping of illegal frogs in Holland (and Belgium) reduced to maybe some individuals, while there have been a lot in the past?

Simple: because now there is a registration system that shows where the frogs are coming from and also the clubs give education.
There is a 'social control', and everybody who doesn't keep the rules, can loose his/her collection of frogs and more..

Apparently the system works, let see why:

1. the first reason why people want to keep smuggled rare frogs is to make money. (breeding and selling).
2. the second reason why people want to keep smuggled rare frogs is to show them off to others who don't have them. 

These two reasons dissapear when you're not allowed to keep them, and when the community doesn't accept it.

The true hobbyist who is really interested in the these frogs, wil never keep them at the expense of the wild populations, and waits untill they are offered in a legal and respondsible way.

Offcourse there allways will be a illegal market, but it is very well possible to reduce this market to a minimum.

Example is Holland; neighbour country of Germany where it is very easy to buy illegal frogs..

Goodluck further with your discussion, i'm gone now, cause i don't want to order anybody around.


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## markpulawski

Zoos have been dealing with these problems for a long long time and so far the only scenario that has been found to work to date starts on the ground in the country of origin. 
This has to occur in several states 

1) country of origin has to begin to enforce thier laws and allocate the resources towards this enforcement 
2) the affected population has to be shown that the indiscriminate harvesting of the animals or destruction of the habitat is a net loss for them. 
3) a system has to be set up that allows the affected population to benefit as a money making industry off of either the ecosystem as a whole or the animal in question under regulated circumstances (this can be totally sponsored by the country alone or by a joint collaboration of outside interests or a combination of both the country and outside interests). Examples are ecotourism, or some form of controlled export of products (not necessarily the animal itself but related materials (say blowguns etc..) 
4)outside affected countries have to step up enforcement of the illegally trafficked materials and/or animals 

5) In this case and this case only, some form of sustainable harvest. This can be captive bred in a controlled situation or a sustained harvesting of wild frogs or both but it must be controlled and it also needs to benefit the locals where the frogs live in some way or the result is that there is still pressure to smuggle the frogs or cut down the habitat. 

Ed 

perfect Ed...perfect

ps Fred don't leave, passionate discussion may lead to results.


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## MeiKVR6

Ed said:


> The goverment breaks it down into a couple of different subsections. If you read through the flow chart and article and substitute frog everywhere it says wood you will see the risk and penalties http://www.eia-global.org/lacey/P6.EIA.LaceyReport.pdf
> 
> for example if you are aware that frogs from country x are illegal and still get them from country y, regardless of paperwork then you are open to signficiant fines. Anyone who is active in the hobby or present in the hobby for any real period of time is going to have a hard time proving that they were not knowledgable..
> 
> Ed


Not to go off on a tangent here but according to that chart - WORST case scenario of "POSSIBLE imprisonment for UP TO 5 years". No mandatory minimum. Money doesn't matter since you can't squeeze blood from a rock - if you've sunk to smuggling you probably don't have anything near $500,000.00 so it's irrelevant. That makes more sense for corporations (as stated in the lacey act) since they've actually GOT money. How many US legal corporations are smuggling frogs? Or maybe now I'm looking at this too optimistically for once?  Are there honestly legitimate companies in the USA doing this?

Otherwise quoting from the Lacey Act:
"...It is important to note that the Lacey Act does not impose U.S. law on other countries. “Illegally sourced” is defined by the content of
sovereign nations’ own laws. The law applies equally to plants taken, harvested, transported, or exported in violation of the relevant laws
of any of the 50 U.S. states..."

South American smugglers have no danger from the US government and the Lacey Act since they aren't an American company. Are the bulk of smugglers American or South American? Are there any numbers on this? It's Columbia - NOT THE USA that needs to enforce the law here. Why are we expected to clean up someone else's mess? (Oops was that too political?  )

Same logic: Do you go after the druggie or the drug lord?


----------



## Ed

If they come to the US at any point they are at risk of being arrested etc. It is 5 years for each violation.. 

If you think that smugglers outside the USA are not at risk of problems I suggest you review the case of Anson Wong... He never entered the USA but violated the Lacey act by laundering animals and smuggling them into the USA.. until he was arrested in Mexico and extradited to the the USA to serve his sentence. Keep in mind that wildlife smugglers are also often prosecuted on other laws as well such as money laundering. If they have assests that can be frozen either in the US or via other countries this can also often occur. 

Ed


----------



## Boondoggle

Ed said:


> 1) country of origin has to begin to enforce thier laws and allocate the resources towards this enforcement
> 2) the affected population has to be shown that the indiscriminate harvesting of the animals or destruction of the habitat is a net loss for them.
> 3) a system has to be set up that allows the affected population to benefit as a money making industry off of either the ecosystem as a whole or the animal in question under regulated circumstances (this can be totally sponsored by the country alone or by a joint collaboration of outside interests or a combination of both the country and outside interests). Examples are ecotourism, or some form of controlled export of products (not necessarily the animal itself but related materials (say blowguns etc..)
> 4)outside affected countries have to step up enforcement of the illegally trafficked materials and/or animals
> 5) In this case and this case only, some form of sustainable harvest. This can be captive bred in a controlled situation or a sustained harvesting of wild frogs or both but it must be controlled and it also needs to benefit the locals where the frogs live in some way or the result is that there is still pressure to smuggle the frogs or cut down the habitat.


Congratulations Ed, you have posted the only balanced comprehensive realistic plan of attack in three threads on the subject. This makes sense.

Just a quick note to Fred. I know the methods of registration work in Holland, but to suggest that they would work in the U.S. is another matter. To approach the problem realistically you have to take in to account American culture which has traditionally placed a HUGE amount of importance on personal freedoms. We are taught from an early age that personal freedoms are the cornerstone of our nation. I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying it's wrong, but the fact is that Americans, as a whole, are generally going to resist something like this to a degree that would surprise someone from a more socialized nation. Again, no value judgment either way, but we need a solution that works realistically not just ideally.


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## MeiKVR6

Ed - well that's good news, at least.  Hopefully Columbia starts getting a little more aggressive enforcing smuggling then.


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## edwardsatc

MeiKVR6 said:


> It's Columbia - NOT THE USA that needs to enforce the law here. Why are we expected to clean up someone else's mess? (Oops was that too political?  )Same logic: Do you go after the druggie or the drug lord?


Really, are you kidding me. Was this meant to be funny? Foreigners go into their country and steal their native fauna and it’s a mess that they created. Holy crap! If foreigners were coming here to the U.S. and driving our natives species to extinction would you be blaming Americans? If I come and steal the frogs from your house, is it _your_ fault?

If the efforts of _many_ countries can’t stem the flow of drugs out of Colombia , what makes you think that a government, that is overshadowed by drug cartels and organizations such as FARC, can gain any control over the smuggling of frogs? Have you ever been to Colombia? I have lived and worked there. From a government standpoint, frog smuggling is the least of their worries.

Three threads and 60+ pages and all I have seen is lame ass justifications for keeping frogs that are of smuggled origins. 

Experts in the field have weighed in (see below) and been totally dismissed. 


Ric Sanchez said:


> I can't believe some of the logic being spouted forth in this thread. Sea, thank you for coming in and trying to make it obvious, but apparently people aren't reading.
> 
> If you buy a WC lehmanni, you are supporting smuggling, case closed. Maybe you think you are doing a noble thing and that you are somehow going to breed the hell out of this species (when no one else can) and eliminate all need for future smuggled specimens.
> 
> Forget it. Delusions of grandeur. All you are trying to do is justify what you know to be wrong.
> 
> All you are doing is saying to the smugglers "Hey guys, keep doing what you're doing, because people are buying your frogs."
> 
> ...
> 
> In the Iquitos market here in Peru, you can find redfoot tortoises alive and upside-down awaiting slaughter, pygmy marmosets chained to tables, and any number of wildlife travesties you could imagine. Part of me wants to buy these animals and set them free. But the logical part of my brain realizes that if I buy a pygmy marmoset I just created a demand, and the trappers will go out the next day and catch one, or two, more to fill that demand I just created. Come on guys, this one is easy.


Evidently hobbyists know better than those standing in the rainforest fighting the battle to keep these frogs in their natural environments (obviously said with sarcasm).

For the first time in many, many years in the hobby, I am considering getting out of it. While I’ve always realized that most frog owners/buyers are not conservation minded, the lack of conservation ethics displayed in these three threads are both appalling and embarrassing to me as a frog enthusiast and scientist.

I’ll never claim that I haven’t had frogs that may be questionable in my collection. But I will also not try to justify their existence in my collection with any of the cockamamie excuses/justifications used in these threads. All frogs in my collection were obtained purely for my own satisfaction. I can’t change the past, but I can do my part by making good ethical decisions in the future.


----------



## MeiKVR6

edwardsatc said:


> Really, are you kidding me. Was this meant to be funny? Foreigners go into their country and steal their native fauna and it’s a mess that they created. Holy crap! If foreigners were coming here to the U.S. and driving our natives species to extinction would you be blaming Americans? If I come and steal the frogs from your house, is it _your_ fault?...Three threads and 60+ pages and all I have seen is lame ass justifications for keeping frogs that are of smuggled origins.


So in theory if a foreigner comes into the USA and breaks *our *laws - it's their country of origin's problem?  We should expect that country to fix the issue that happened on OUR land? Just because a country has a ton of problems - doesn't make it OUR problem or responsibility. 

So to answer your question - If foreigners were coming to the US and driving our native species to extinction... Hell yes I'd blame OUR country for not enforcing OUR laws and protecting OUR fauna. How would it be the other country's responsibility? 

And to clairity - I have *no* questionable animals in my collection - nor will I as I've posted earlier. I am morally against all of this (you and I are likely on the same page!) I'm only against the US government taking rash steps against exotic animals in the USA. Nowhere did I say anything about supporting this stuff. In fact - I'd support simple legislation in the USA as I mentioned earlier.


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## Philsuma

To expect Columbia to devote critical resources to stop FROG.......FROG trafficing is laughable.

I think they have bigger fish to fry:

1. An armed political insurrection.
2. A well funded narco terrorist problem.
3. Hostile countries on 2 borders. 

Please stop saying Columbia has to do something and educate yourselves.

Asking Columbia to "do something" is like telling the kid with no shirt who sleeps in the street to clean up his act, stop stealing and start "acting better" so he won't upset the rich people in a far away country.

WE have the ability and resources to do something. Not Columbia. It's an American problem.


----------



## MeiKVR6

^^^ I agree something needs to be done - I agree we have the ability. I do not agree that it is our responsibility to enforce another country's law outside of our border.

I've had enough e-arguing today.  Off to Sunday lunch with Kate. I think we're on the right track tho - something has to be done. Now to figure out what!


----------



## sbreland

Philsuma said:


> To expect Columbia to devote critical resources to stop FROG.......FROG trafficing is laughable.
> 
> I think they have bigger fish to fry:
> 
> 1. An armed political insurrection.
> 2. A well funded narco terrorist problem.
> 3. Hostile countries on 2 borders.
> 
> Please stop saying Columbia has to do something and educate yourselves.
> 
> Asking Columbia to "do something" is like telling the kid with no shirt who sleeps in the street to clean up his act, stop stealing and start "acting better" so he won't upset the rich people in a far away country.
> 
> WE have the ability and resources to do something. Not Columbia. It's an American problem.


Here's the funny part and what EVERYONE seems to be missing... it IS Colombia's responsibility to fix this... they just are not going to. They don't let the frogs get out of the country then problem solved... period, but unfortunately we all know they aren't going to do that. As mentioned by Phil, me, and numerous others, they have bigger problems and most likely are not going to deal with this but does this take the responsibility away from them and no longer make it their issue?? Hell no. Look, just because they aren't going to do anything doesn't mean it still isn't the root of the problem, it just means they aren't going to do anything. Everyone is so black and white here and in a totally gray conversation where there really is no right solution because most of what MUST be done will never happen. Colombia MUST protect their resources (frogs)... not gonna happen, at least not like it needs to be done. All froggers must know the dangers and consequences of smuggling and smuggled frogs AND BE ON THE SAME PAGE... not gonna happen, there are just WAY too many people (here in the US and abroad) that will never hear the message or don't want to subscribe to this train of thought. Sorry, don't want to sound pessimistic but show me one shred of proof that says this could ever be stopped. Mark has been working hard in Peru on making the situation better but does smuggling still happen... YOU BET! There are Peruvian frogs coming out (or came out) all the time, despite the UE operation. Personal ethics people... that is the answer. Be true to yourself and set your own example... it's the best way you can help. Ed has the next best plan of action outlined earlier but as many have stated, good luck getting Colombia on board with that.


----------



## fred

Ok; In Colombia is a very strong control at the airports, and also everything that gets exported isn't easy, because of some reasons..and it aint frogs..if there's anything else, (like frogs) it gets detected.
And this happend before..the collection from the Zoo are allmost all confiscated frogs.

From Colombia it is possible to go to Venezuela, equador, Peru, Brasil, or Panama, and smuggle the frogs further from there.
What to do about that?
And, from the most of these Country's also frogs get smuggled..so who's to blame?

Another thing; I have allways been very interested in plants, specially carnivorous plants and orchids, etc. , this is also a hobby, and was also my work.

There are a lot of protected (cites list) plants in the USA, like Sarracenia (carnivorous), Cypripedium (orchid); these are just two examples.

These kind of plants are protected, but they still get smuggled out of the USA and sometimes get confiscated at borders of European country's. 
Is that the fault from the American Government?
Or the people who make a business to get them out of the country?

Boondoggle; Holland is one of the most free country's in the world; you don't get sued by a lawyer for every wrong word you say, marihuana is allowed and there are many coffeshops where you can buy it (that's why so many famous moviestars like to walk around in Amsterdam, smoking without being bothered), you can say F..k on national tv or radio without ending up in jail, walk nuded on the beach, and much more.
If the system we have in Holland works, it has nothing to do with a lack of freedom we have..


----------



## Ed

Philsuma said:


> To expect Columbia to devote critical resources to stop FROG.......FROG trafficing is laughable.
> 
> I think they have bigger fish to fry:
> 
> 1. An armed political insurrection.
> 2. A well funded narco terrorist problem.
> 3. Hostile countries on 2 borders.
> 
> Please stop saying Columbia has to do something and educate yourselves.
> 
> Asking Columbia to "do something" is like telling the kid with no shirt who sleeps in the street to clean up his act, stop stealing and start "acting better" so he won't upset the rich people in a far away country.
> 
> WE have the ability and resources to do something. Not Columbia. It's an American problem.



Phil,

Unless (and until) Colombia does something on thier end, any attempts outside the country are doomed to failure as the start of the chain will continue to exploit the quick buck and/or destroy the habitat. 

There have even been massive attempts by outside agencies like the debt for nature swaps that have periodically been tried over the years. Look at the failure of the ones set up for Madagascar and other countries. In all cases, the failure starts at the ground in the country of origin. 

If they cannot or choose to not enforce the regulations, then it will fail. That is history of conservation programs talking. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Ok; In Colombia is a very strong controll at the airports, and also everything that gets exported isn't easy, because of some reasons..and it aint frogs..if there's anything else, (like frogs) it gets detected.
> And this happend before..the collection from the Zoo are allmost all conviscated frogs.
> 
> From Colombia it is possible to go to Venezuela, equador, Peru, Brasil, or Panama, and smuggle the frogs further from there.
> What to do about that?
> And, from the most of these Country's also frogs get smuggled..so wh0's to blame?


If Colombia is not going to engage in a conservation program to protect their own wildlife, which includes educating the locals, policing reserves, policing air ports and/or your borders (try profiling potential smugglers and searching thier luggage before they leave the country) regardless if it is at a border or an air port, then any outside efforts are doomed to failure. There to date has only ever been one model that works and it requires heavy involvement in the country of origin. 




fred said:


> There are a lot of protected (cites list) plants in the USA, like Sarracenia (carnivorous), Cypripedium (orchid); these are just two examples.
> 
> These kind of plants are protected, but they still get smuggled out of the USA and sometimes get confiscated at borders of European country's.


You are aware that with the exception of three species of Sarracenia, all are listed as CITES II, and in addition virtually all species of Sarracenia are available in the common trade in the US as either captive produced seed, seed grown, tissue cultured or artifically propegated, so virtually none are being harvested illegally for the trade? I can get seeds of at least two the three CITES I Sarracenia legally from the ICPS for less than $5 a packet.. and grow as many of them I choose... These plants have been artifically cultivated in massive numbers for more at least a decade (and probably at least two decades). I can purchase tissue cultured pitcher plants at my local big box hardware store. 

For the correct listing see The Carnivorous Plant FAQ: What carnivorous plants are covered by CITES?

Of all of the CITES II species, I can get both seed, seed grown plants, and/or propegated plants sent to my house. All of these can readily be exported and I suspect that confiscations are due to improper paperwork more than an actual attempt to smuggle them.... 

In addition, advances have been made in the culture of Cypripediums allowing for propegated plants to be produced... This is one of the sources of smuggled plants as paperwork for propegated plants are not complete or properly set up. 

I have to say that we do seize and prosecute people that try to smuggle plants and animals out but it is one thing for someone to try and smuggle propegated materials than to simply collect a lot of wild collected materials. 

I have to also point, that none of us are on European forums pointing figures claiming that all of the plants of those groups must be from illegal sources... 

Ed


----------



## Boondoggle

fred said:


> Boondoggle; Holland is one of the most free country's in the world; you don't get sued by a lawyer for every wrong word you say, marihuana is allowed and there are many coffeshops where you can buy it (that's why so many famous moviestars liek to walk around in Amsterdam, smoking without being bothered), you can say F..k on national tv or radio without ending up in jail, walk nuded on the beach, and much more.
> If the system we have in Holland works, it has nothing to do with a lack of freedom we have..


I wasn't trying to besmirch Holland or understate it's freedoms. I was trying to gently help you understand cultural differences that you don't seem to take into account, that ramp conversations up to "why would I let a foreigner tell me what to do in my country?" levels, so as to avoid those triggers.

Legalized narcotics, nudity and profanity were not the freedoms I was referring to. In fact I wasn't referring to any freedoms specifically at all, just Americans concepts of freedom. If you continue to approach Americans on an American forum without taking that into account, you will continue to elicit the same knee-jerk responses. What I am telling you is that the American market is going to be VERY resistant to mandatory regulation...not, as you seem to assume, because they are pro-smuggling. It's because they are anti-regulation.

Now you can take that into account or not, that's up to you. I'm not trying to get in any Nationalistic "my country is better than yours" debate. I'm trying to tell you why there are people here who agree with you in principle, but are still arguing with you.


----------



## markpulawski

Phil stop saying Columbia.....its colombia


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## Philsuma

markpulawski said:


> Phil stop saying Columbia.....its colombia


sorry Marc........


----------



## fred

Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia, Brasil, Equador, and what more..
All these country's have their endangered species listed in Cites, that's an international agreement.

Citizens from any county of the world smuggling species or buying smuggled species from the list are respondsible and should be hold by the country where they bring the species in.

This is the respondsability from the authorities there; they are respondsible for what their citizins bring in their country.

Does anyone here really think you can seal off a whole country?

Boondoggle; so that means you have no regulations overthere? because the people don't like it? i doubt that..

I was going to stay out of this, and that's exactly what i'm going to do now.


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## ChrisK

It's amazing how Ed continually posts hard facts and historical citings, yet people totally disregard them and post totally contradictory statements about "the only way it will work"


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## Boondoggle

fred said:


> Boondoggle; so that means you have no regulations overthere? because the people don't like it? i doubt that..


Nope, that would be taking my statement and then applying it's principle to it's most extreme example, making it ridiculous. You can do that with any statement.

Why would I lie to you about this?

I guess we will just agree to disagree about American culture. Remind me to tell you all about Dutch culture sometime...oh wait, that would be silly as I don't live there. I live here...in America...immersed in this culture.

I'm out.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia, Brasil, Equador, and what more..
> All these country's have their endangered species listed in Cites, that's an international agreement.
> 
> Citizens from any county of the world smuggling species or buying smuggled species from the list are respondsible and should be hold by the country where they bring the species in.
> 
> This is the respondsability from the authorities there; they are respondsible for what their citizins bring in their country.
> 
> Does anyone here really think you can seal off a whole country?
> 
> Boondoggle; so that means you have no regulations overthere? because the people don't like it? i doubt that..
> 
> I was going to stay out of this, and that's exactly what i'm going to do now.


The problem is that this ignores the problem that conservation programs do not work unless it dealt with from the ground up.. for example, in 1992, a majority of air lines refused to transport wild caught birds, did the smuggling of wild caught birds stop? No.. 
You only see a reduction in smuggling when the country of origin engages in the steps I outlined above. Until such a time as the local populations see a real value does smuggling become reduced and stop.. 
The person collecting the smuggled animal for sale typically realizes a very small part of the total profit available in the smuggling chain. If there was a greater profit to handle it otherwise then there would be no incentive to make it convient for the smugglers. 

In any case I've said virtually of this at least once before.. see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/17544-smuggling-9.html for example. 

I will continue to say it, unless education and protection starts on the ground floor it won't be a successful program and will be doomed to fail. 

Ed


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## pl259

Back to the demand side of the problem...(changed the quote to add 'WC")



markpulawski said:


> Now the question, would I buy a group of WC Lehmanni if they were sitting in front of me....god I hate this answer but yes I would. That's the problem, how do I fix it?


You start by first answering the question "Why do you want them?" 

Is it...
Because they're cool?
Because no one else has them?
Because you can make money from them?
Because ???

I would not buy WC Lehmanni. Myself, I only buy CB animals. I buy ones I like, which more times than not, don't satisfy many of the above.

P. Vittatus are a great example. I truely love the species. 
Do other people have them? Yup. Can you make money off them? Nope. 

If Lehmanni were established and CB offspring were around, would I? Maybe. I'd need to know more about the species first. 

The husbandry skills in the hobby have grown a lot over then last few years. I'd like to see legal exports from stabile populations first. I'm in no hurry. Then have these go into the hands of selected keepers. If they breed, sell the offspring with a portion of the sales going back to conservation efforts at the country of origin.


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## Philsuma

ChrisK said:


> It's amazing how Ed continually posts hard facts and historical citings, yet people totally disregard them and post totally contradictory statements about "the only way it will work"


Ed is generous, erudite, inspiring and tireless with his postings but I'm sure he would be the first to tell you that his opinions and information is far from the end-all, be-all for this topic.

Some people are acknowledged by our Judiciary as expert witnesses. Some of us may have even authored a book. Many have most likely submitted a peer reviewed paper. "Facts" and cites are data complied by a viewpoint for a particular reason.

Doesn't mean all or any of us have to agree _totally_ with what they say, pack up, end the discussion.


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## ChrisK

Philsuma said:


> Ed is generous, erudite, inspiring and tireless with his postings but I'm sure he would be the first to tell you that his opinions and information is far from the end-all, be-all for this topic.
> 
> Some people are acknowledged by our Judiciary as expert witnesses. Some of us may have even authored a book. Many have most likely submitted a peer reviewed paper. "Facts" and cites are data complied by a viewpoint for a particular reason.
> 
> Doesn't mean all or any of us have to agree _totally_ with what they say, pack up, end the discussion.


OK, so then how about anyone citing some historically successful examples of animal smuggling/conservation that are arguments to his successful and unsuccessful examples?


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## Web Wheeler

Ed said:


> Zoos have been dealing with these problems for a long long time and so far the only scenario that has been found to work to date starts on the ground in the country of origin.
> This has to occur in several states
> 
> 1) country of origin has to begin to enforce thier laws and allocate the resources towards this enforcement
> 2) the affected population has to be shown that the indiscriminate harvesting of the animals or destruction of the habitat is a net loss for them.
> 3) a system has to be set up that allows the affected population to benefit as a money making industry off of either the ecosystem as a whole or the animal in question under regulated circumstances (this can be totally sponsored by the country alone or by a joint collaboration of outside interests or a combination of both the country and outside interests). Examples are ecotourism, or some form of controlled export of products (not necessarily the animal itself but related materials (say blowguns etc..)
> 4)outside affected countries have to step up enforcement of the illegally trafficked materials and/or animals
> 
> 5) In this case and this case only, some form of sustainable harvest. This can be captive bred in a controlled situation or a sustained harvesting of wild frogs or both but it must be controlled and it also needs to benefit the locals where the frogs live in some way or the result is that there is still pressure to smuggle the frogs or cut down the habitat.
> 
> Ed


I agree with this, Ed. However, since Columbia has allowed only a small number of Dendrobated frogs to be legally exported, ever, I suspect there might be resistance to this model of conservation. I would have to say that, from what Fred has described, the status quo has been a dismal failure in Columbia with regards to conservation of Dendrobated frogs.


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## edwardsatc

*Re: Fred*



MeiKVR6 said:


> So in theory if a foreigner comes into the USA and breaks *our *laws - it's their country of origin's problem?  We should expect that country to fix the issue that happened on OUR land? Just because a country has a ton of problems - doesn't make it OUR problem or responsibility.
> 
> So to answer your question - If foreigners were coming to the US and driving our native species to extinction... Hell yes I'd blame OUR country for not enforcing OUR laws and protecting OUR fauna. How would it be the other country's responsibility?
> 
> And to clairity - I have *no* questionable animals in my collection - nor will I as I've posted earlier. I am morally against all of this (you and I are likely on the same page!) I'm only against the US government taking rash steps against exotic animals in the USA. Nowhere did I say anything about supporting this stuff. In fact - I'd support simple legislation in the USA as I mentioned earlier.


We are on the same page.

I'm not trying to put the responsibility on any country - the responsibility is on individuals, such as hobbyists, to do the right thing. Do I think smuggling is going to stop - heck no! Do I think Colombia needs to take action - hell yes. I just don't think that _blaming_ Colombia is rational thought. The _blame_ lies on those of us who collect frogs for our personal enjoyment. Without a consumer (insert hobbyist) there would be no smuggling.

It's seems as though there is an attitude out there that, since these countries can't or won't control smuggling, anything that has made it out should be okay and retained within the hobby.

My real point was that folks just keep pointing the finger elsewhere to justify the keeping of frogs that they know darn well shouldn't be here. To me it's laughable, embarrassing and a black eye to all the ethical hobbyists out there.

One of the other biologists in my department read the original thread. What do you think his impression of the Dart Frog hobby is?

Anyhow I'm out of here. These threads were beaten to death way before I weighed in.


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## Ed

For some reason, the entire issue of smuggling animals that are in limited numbers in the wild is being seen as a new issue. The problem with the smuggling of the frogs is a pretty good parallel to the crisis in parrots seen from the 1970s through the very early 1990s. The main thing that stopped the smuggling was enactment and enforcement of legislation in the country of origin... This was overall the greatest single factor in reducing the smuggling. 

For an example, if my memory serves me correctly grey cheeked parakeets were imported in large numbers for about 5 years in theh 1980s.. somewhere more than 50,000 birds were imported. At this time, less than 5 breeders are working with this species in the USA.. what happened to the thousands of birds...?

Ed


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## Ed

This may also be of interest 

Powered by Google Docs

Ed


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## MrBiggs

No, I would not.


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## Malaki33

This seems to be just a continuation of the illegal frogs thread. That all being said let me ask you all this. Why is it you think that Colombia is one of the few countries that doesn't allow trade of any of its frogs? Is it because they want to protect them? Is it because they want to be different, or can it be that maybe the country (government) is making a boat load more money from the smugglers. Sound impossible? Ludicrous? Or is it indeed a possibility? Any country that really wants to can put things into place to significantly deter smuggling, yes it will happen, it can't all be stopped, but it can be reduced significantly by sinking the right amount of dollars and other resources into the effort. I agree with Ed, and any history book you read will show, that efforts must take place on the ground in the affected countries to have any real impact on the act of smuggling. We can indeed take steps here, but we (America) are but a small part of the demand. Other countries consume more in the way of exotic hobbyists.


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## edwardsatc

Malaki33 said:


> or can it be that maybe the country (government) is making a boat load more money from the smugglers. Sound impossible? Ludicrous? Or is it indeed a possibility?


Ludicrous. But not as ludicrous as some of the justifications I have seen offered in these threads.

Side Note: Since 1981 when Colombia entered CITES they have reported 11 live specimens of _D. histrionicus_ being legally exported. The other 5865 (4805 to US) _D. histrionicus_ legally exported under CITES were from Ecuador. Does anyone really think that the Colombian morphs in the hobby are really from the 11 legal specimens?


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## sbreland

Malaki33 said:


> Why is it you think that Colombia is one of the few countries that doesn't allow trade of any of its frogs?


What are you basing this comment on because it's absolutely not true. Panama is allowing exports now and Peru has allowed legal exports by UE and INIBICO ONLY (to my knowledge) but aside from that name another country that does allow trade and export. Costa Rica... No. Colombia... No. Ecuador... no. French Guyana... No. Nicaragua... No. Brazil... no. Venezuela... No. Does that make the point or should we keep going??


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## markpulawski

The NEW title of this thread was not the intent of the thread, instead it was congrats to a new thought provoking addition to our board....I assume the aforementioned title felt this was a slam against him, if so I am sorry, in actuality I was really happy to see the comments and the fresh perspective. Please remove the ENTIRE thread or my name, or CATFUR pull your padlock out so we can now forget this.


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## Julio

markpulawski said:


> The NEW title of this thread was not the intent of the thread, instead it was congrats to a new thought provoking addition to our board....I assume the aforementioned title felt this was a slam against him, if so I am sorry, in actuality I was really happy to see the comments and the fresh perspective. Please remove the ENTIRE thread or my name, or CATFUR pull your padlock out so we can now forget this.


so he comes in here and starts controversy among the community and now wants to cry about the fact everyone is gonna talk about him... 

if you are not gonna take the criticism, dont' bother posting Fred (cry baby)!!!!


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## markpulawski

Julio I am making an asumption, no one told me anything about why this thread title was changed, maybe the person said nothing and the title was changed for other reasons. The new title was a sidebar to the point I was making and I now consider it emberrasing and quite honestly insulting. Please close or delete this thread, though i will say that Ed made points in this thread that were truely outstanding and I applaud him for it.
mark


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## Ed

Thanks Mark,

Ed


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## pl259

I changed the title because, whether you intended or not, it invited criticism of another member. The final part of your OP was a query to the board, so I changed the title to reflect that. Sorry you feel so insulted about it. If you want to suggest another title that doesn't directly name a member, I'll change it.

I see no need to delete the thread as there is plenty of worthy content, regardless of the title.


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## ChrisK

edwardsatc said:


> Ludicrous. But not as ludicrous as some of the justifications I have seen offered in these threads.
> 
> Side Note: Since 1981 when Colombia entered CITES they have reported 11 live specimens of _D. histrionicus_ being legally exported. The other 5865 (4805 to US) _D. histrionicus_ legally exported under CITES were from Ecuador. Does anyone really think that the Colombian morphs in the hobby are really from the 11 legal specimens?


Were any Colombian morphs exported from Ecuador?


----------



## Julio

well its sensorship no matter how you look at it, so much for freedom of speech


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## skylsdale

ChrisK said:


> Were any Colombian morphs exported from Ecuador?


That would have still required exportation from Colombia to Ecuador (country-to-country). Or do you mean smuggled across the border from Colombia and then exported out of Ecuador?


----------



## ChrisK

skylsdale said:


> That would have still required exportation from Colombia to Ecuador (country-to-country). Or do you mean smuggled across the border from Colombia and then exported out of Ecuador?


Well I guess it could be that scenario or possibly Colombian morphs that were in Ecuador before Colombia stopped exportations and possibly the spill-over morphs that are on the border, any of those scenarios could make it a huge number difference


----------



## skylsdale

ChrisK said:


> Well I guess it could be that scenario or possibly Colombian morphs that were in Ecuador before Colombia stopped exportations and possibly the spill-over morphs that are on the border, any of those scenarios could make it a huge number difference


You would have to look at the gap in years between when Colombia stopped exports and when Ecuador halted them, and then even more specifically, which species have populations that cross the borders between the two countries and from those, whether any were collected and legally exported from Ecuador during that gap.

I don't think it to be very plausible.


----------



## ChrisK

skylsdale said:


> You would have to look at the gap in years between when Colombia stopped exports and when Ecuador halted them, and then even more specifically, which species have populations that cross the borders between the two countries and from those, whether any were collected and legally exported from Ecuador during that gap.
> 
> I don't think it to be very plausible.


Yeah I was hoping that now or sometime in the future that someone in "the know" about it would say what they knew one way or the other, the guy I used to get my histrionicus from for example. I'm sure the exports weren't morphologically documented on any CITES type documents.


----------



## Catfur

edwardsatc said:


> Side Note: Since 1981 when Colombia entered CITES they have reported 11 live specimens of _D. histrionicus_ being legally exported. The other 5865 (4805 to US) _D. histrionicus_ legally exported under CITES were from Ecuador. Does anyone really think that the Colombian morphs in the hobby are really from the 11 legal specimens?


Were dendrobatids listed as CITES II as far back as 1981? If not when were denrdrobatids added to appendix II?


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## edwardsatc

Catfur said:


> Were dendrobatids listed as CITES II as far back as 1981? If not when were denrdrobatids added to appendix II?


Histrionicus was listed as Appendix II in 1987.


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## edwardsatc

ChrisK said:


> Were any Colombian morphs exported from Ecuador?


There are no records in the CITES database for exports from Colombia to Ecuador.


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## Roadrunner

Well, from some of the retorts in this thread, people seem quite intimidated by the social policing thing and I`m sure it would go a long way. Asia and other countries are not my problem. I can`t do anything over there. THIS is my country and I`ll never give up hope that my actions can reduce or eliminate smuggling here in the US. Also, I don`t have to change everyone`s attitude just the few I interact w/. Hopefully, if others do the same, it will spread. As I said, you need to do both, prosecute smugglers and you can`t praise people for dealing in smuggled and suspect frogs.



sbreland said:


> Bingo... I'd like to pick out certain sections that are absolutely correct, but you hit it on the head with EVERYTHING.
> 
> Look, Aaron, you reemphasize my point with what you say... the only way to make any difference is to change you OWN personal ethics. You made the change... good. Now you will not buy any potentially smuggled frogs... BUT, you will never change everyone's. This board represents such a small subsect of this hobby and it mostly only represents this country... as stated, how many illegally obtained WC histos are coming in directly from Colombia to the US? Don't know, but I guess the answer is close to none. Now coming in from Europe after being sent out of Colombia... there's a more likely scenario. Tell me exactly how your moral crusade is great for you and those that you influence, but you will NEVER influence the people in Europe or Asia, so how much good are you really doing?? Do the right thing for you... do the right thing for the frogs and MAYBE someday this attitude will spread far enough to make a difference... but don't count on it. SUPPORT 100% efforts like Mark's and encourage efforts like it to be undertaken in Colombia (yes, I know logistically it's likely impossible, but people said the same about Peru before Mark... it just takes time and effort). The answer to "How do we stop smuggling" is... don't be an idiot, you never will. There will ALWAYS be a demand because your message will NEVER reach everyone so the demand will always be there. Thinking that you can stop the American hobby's demand is about as logical as saying you could swim down in the ocean and put your thumb in the oil leak and it will all be over with... ridiculous. It's not going to happen... you're going to miss way too many people, plus, you forget that there are people that DON"T WANT to hear this arguement or agree with you... you aren't going to change them. As for the arguement about the lehmanni on the table at the frog show... jesus, can we be a little less literal and realize this is never happening?? If I must spell it out so it's easier to see the point, here ya go... these frogs come in by a variety of channels and are often only released to the elite froggers in the country (who most could give a shit about this board so never hear your arguement and wouldn't care anyways) or they are offered to the importers friends. The red heads last year are an anomaly and are DEFINITELY not the norm... it just happened because someone bought more than they were able to get rid of behind the scenes. Now, who do you think has more influence on these potential buyers, you who they've never met or only know through this frog board with your preachy ideals or their friend who they've known for awhile and trust. I know the answer... do you have your rose colored glasses on tight enough to deny it? Look man, change yourself (which it sounds like you've done) and change your friends... in turn they will change their's and so on but it will be a SLOW process and then you will have a large subsect of the American hobby on your side, but there will ALWAYS still be those there who are not. It's a fact and no matter how hard you want to deny it that doesn't change it. Aaron, this post isn't completely directed at you but anyone who thinks this way. The rose colored glasses are cool but unrealistic and that's what my previous post said... lets be reaslistic. Support Mark and his projects and any others that appear and keep your personal morals strong... that's the key. If you want to change the world all the luck to you but think about how well the guy knocking at your front door preaching religion is received... not very well. I respect you Aaron and the changes you made but I just can't and won't agree with the rose colored glasses approach about 55% of the people on here seem to take. I believe in the efforts being done down there but there will always be a problem and that's a fact... you can't reach everyone.


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## fred

Markpulawski,

Just to let you know;
I have no problem with my name on this thread, i don't care about that, and had totally nothing to do with the removal and changing of the title.

Julio, 
You're kind of comment is exactly why i don't like to write here anymore, calling people 'cry baby' doesn't belong in a healthy discussion, the same like 'noone outside these borders orders us around'..

Having a discussion on a forum is very difficult; words are getting easily mistaken, talking face to face gives a totally different picture of a person who you're talking with.
Very important is to stay at the point, otherwise it gets a mess. (i'm also not allways good at it, and sometimes let myself being dragged away from the subject).

Don't understand me wrong; I also see some very positive posts here, and I highly respect the people who try to go against all the negativity. 

Ed, 

I see you're one of the people here who can stay at the point, and you have some very good points, but i don't agree with you that the main problem lies in the country of origin.
Besides; Colombia does work on conservation, protection, education, etc., and i'm sure other country's are doing too.

If people will not or can not buy them, there is no need to smuggle frogs.

Is it possible to stop everybody from buying illegal frogs? no, offcourse not, but it is possible to discourage them a lot.

And like you said; education is very important, but in the first place the hobbyists need to be educated about etics and respondsibility's this hobby brings.

Goodluck with the disussion, don't close it.


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## poison beauties

> [
> but i don't agree with you that the main problem lies in the country of origin.
> Besides; Colombia does work on conservation, protection, education, etc., and i'm sure other country's are doing too.
> 
> If people will not or can not buy them, there is no need to smuggle frogs.
> 
> Is it possible to stop everybody from buying illegal frogs? no, offcourse not, but it is possible to discourage them a lot.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Like you said you cant stop the buying of smuggles frogs everywhere. While the US can do their part the only true way to stop smuggling is for your country to stop it where it starts. Once those frogs leave their natural habitat its too late.
> When you try to prevent others from voicing fact or opinion, that is we we have issues with you. Thats it. I think you are headed into the right direction with the whole spreading the word issue. And you do pass your self off as a bit of a ''cry baby''.
> 
> Michael


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## ChrisK

Fred,

Is there any way for you to tell us exactly which programs you are aware of that are handling managing the histrionicus/lehmanni populations there (habitat protection, breeding etc) because many people here would probably want to help with it. For some reason you never answer that question but it's one people want to know about.


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## Ed

Fred,

I have pointed out that Colombia has rights under treaty to engage other countries in enforceing antismuggling programs (such as the Biological Diversity treaty, of which not only is Colombia and Germany signatories, but so are Colombia's neighboring countries). I have seen no evidence that Colombia has any interest in enforcing its rights along these lines. 

I have also pointed out that protection needs to start on the ground, which now (late in the discussion you claim is now occuring well after attempting to point fingers at other issues) yet based on your descriptions of the numbers of the frogs being smuggled is a strong indicator that little to no action is really being taken on the ground by Colombia other than prohibiting (not enforcing the prohibiotion) collection. I have strong doubts that there is really any action being taken by the Colombian goverment based on the numbers you reference as being collected and exported (thousands, in thousand lot shipments (see post #92 in this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54624-illegal-frogs-forum-10.html ). Particularly since a large number of frogs apparently came out of "protected" reserves. Where were the rangers? Why wasn't the area patrolled? If thousands are being prepared for shipment why isn't it being flagged by customs? That is a large shipment of frogs to go out and evade the goverment.. 

There is a long history of attempts to stop or reduce smuggling. The only way it works is through the steps I outlined (and followed up with the interesting link on the economics of smuggling wildlife) which drives up the price and reduces demand. 

Ed


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## fred

Ed,

With all respect, I have to react on this.
Are you serious with these questions?:

'where are the rangers', 'why wasn't the area patrolled', 'why isn't it being flagged by customs'..

Have you ever been in Colombia or another surrounding country in a tropical rainforest? 
Do you know how big the area's are and how many options there are to go into the frog area's without seeing anybody or being seen?
These are no parks where people walk there dogs and feed the ducks on a sunday afternoon....
How do you want to protect frogs in a jungle by rangers and patrolling? (by the way, there is a lot of patrolling going on on allmost every road, for different reasons), and they will intercept people with anything not legal, including frogs..
How can 'shipments' being flagged by customs if they probably go through another country?

I heard before that f.e. frogs from Peru where smuggled in fish exports from Manaus, Brasil..

Like you can read in one of the other threads there is a small reserve in Tollima, with a ranger to protect two very rare ranitomeya species, and still these frogs appear on the market in Germany..

The only places where the frogs are reasonably save at this moment is in very dangeres area's where even most of the natives don't dare to come because of the guerilla.
And even from those area's sometimes frogs appear in Germany, and later some other country's who let them go through their customs and even legalize them..


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## Ed

Fred,

Other countries with heavy jungles are able to patrol them and reduce or stop poaching and smuggling. It is pretty well established in the literature.. how do you explain the reduction in smuggling out of Brazil for example? If the level of protection is as great as you are now avering how are in your words thousands of frogs being collected and exported as you have stated? (see reference in the above post). 
In fact, in 1993 a famous herpetologist (Obst) was shot and severely injured in Madagascar after being mistaken for a poacher..... 

Ed


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## rmelancon

fred said:


> ...Is it possible to stop everybody from buying illegal frogs? no, offcourse not, but it is possible to discourage them a lot.
> ...


Discouraging the majority of the hobby, even if you could do that in the US, forget about Japan and other EU countries, will not stop demand and therefore will not stop smuggling. Getting 100% buy in from all hobbyists, across the globe, is not being realistic. So without 100% buy in, there is still demand and there will still be smuggling. As has been reiterated many times, the country of origin has to stop the smuggling, protect the habitat, etc. You will never stop demand. Let me say that again, you will NEVER stop demand, just like you will never stop the demand for drugs. The sooner you accept that and realize that you must stop the supply (or create a legal sustainable supply), the sooner you can make a real difference in the outcome. In the case of Lehmanni, a legal sustainable supply is out of the question so you are left with stopping the smuggling in the country of origin. 

And getting to the question of the thread, would I buy WC Lehmanni... it would depend on the circumstances, but probably not. Having experience and knowing several who have experience with them, I don't know that I would have the proper setups to have success with them to justify the price I know they would command. If I decided not to, it would not be because I thought in declining I would somehow be saving them in the long run or contributing to the conservation of them in the wild.


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## rmelancon

Mark, I think I know what you are trying to get at in your original question. Feel free to correct me if I am way off.

We keep frogs is glass boxes for our own personal benefit and enjoyment. This is exploitation of wildlife. Many who are in the hobby have varying degrees of "conservation mindedness" for lack of a better term. Some have none. So it is an interesting struggle, to me anyway, between being conservation minded, which would not really involve keeping frogs in glass boxes, and exploiting them for personal enjoyment.


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## pl259

fred said:


> Just to let you know;
> I have no problem with my name on this thread, i don't care about that, and had totally nothing to do with the removal and changing of the title.


To clarify things about my change in the title, it was done with no inputs from fred or anyone else. Mark's OP was well stated and unbiased. It too had nothing to do with the change in the title. 

The reason for changing the title was to attempt to avoid this thread escalting into another personal slam fest and keep things focused and constructive. This thread came right after the closure of the other two threads, which had degraded into something personal. The original title directly named one of the persons at the center of that issue, and in my judgement invited a continuance of the same negative behavior, that closed the first two threads.

With this in mind, I'll happily change the thread's title to whatever makes sense, inline with the overall general content and direction of this thread.


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## Ed

rmelancon said:


> We keep frogs is glass boxes for our own personal benefit and enjoyment. This is exploitation of wildlife. Many who are in the hobby have varying degrees of "conservation mindedness" for lack of a better term. Some have none. So it is an interesting struggle, to me anyway, between being conservation minded, which would not really involve keeping frogs in glass boxes, and exploiting them for personal enjoyment.


It is possible to support conservation through the keeping of frogs in glass boxes however unless the keeping of the frogs supports at least 2 (and ideally all three) of the following, we really are not keeping them in a manner that supports conservation...

1) education of wide audience (including the locals from where the frogs originate)
2) conservation of the animal's habitat 
3) sustaining wild populations or captive populations that have been managed in a manner to allow for reintroductions 

Ed


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## fred

Hi Ed,

It seems to be just a matter of attention from the smugglers/ hobbyists.

You can see there have been a lot of smuggling from country's like Costa Rica, Equador, Peru, Brasil, and more, also Colombia, now and then.
The last few years in Colombia some area's got more accessible then they where before.
Immediatly the poachers took there chances.

Which country's with heavy jungle are making patrol and are able to stop smugglers with this?
Peru? Equador? Panama? Costa Rica? Brasil? still frogs are coming in from there too..

I would say Costa Rica must come most close with protection then; a small country with jungle turned into tourist parks now with walking paths, and stil frogs get smuggled, like 'blue jeans' and different granuliferus colour morphs ('grannies' like you call them overthere on the forums where they are for sale)

Madagascar; how much rainforest is left over there..last what i heard it was about only about 5 %.

One more example: about the tiger that's about to get extinct; protection in what way ever possible didn't help, stil in China the bones, skins and teeth are for sale.
Recently the whole route of smuggling has been exposed by an undercover operation, and the Chinese government ignores the whole matter and does nothing against it, and the poaching goes on..


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## JimO

In response to the OP's question, for myself, I would not buy an animal that is endangered and illegally caught and put up for sale. I might be able to rationalize it by thinking that I'd put great effort in breeding the animal to create a potential pool for future re-establishment of wild populations. However, I'm not qualified or equipped to breed endangered species and wouldn't want the responsibility.

As far as individuals not being able to control themselves, think about this. Assuming you'd never get caught and had the facilities to keep them, would your conscience allow you to purchase a snow leopard, cotton-top tamarin, giant panda, hawksbill sea turtle, etc.? If not, then why a dart frog? Does the size of the animal make any real difference? The novelty would wear off eventually and we'd be on to the next new morph.

Frankly, it distrubs me that people who love and appreciate dart frogs and who are serious about their conservation would say yes to the question as posed - you know it's endangered and that it is WC illegally, and smuggled to the purchaser.

It's one thing to buy CB specimens from sources that might have smuggled frogs in their lineage, most of which might have been illegally smuggled but might not have been endangered at the time. However, it's an entirely different matter indeed to purchase any WC endangered species.

I'm not judging anyone, but if the members of Dendroboard would do that, then who wouldn't? Other than those involved in real conservation efforts, the members here make up one of the largest groups of people in the world who have a vested interest in preserving healthy wild dart frogs populations. Most people don't even know they exist or don't care. And many of those who collect them for sale are poor and trying to feed their families, so they can't afford to be concerned about conservation.

I also challenge anyone who would say yes, to pause and think the next time you are outraged when you hear about a rhino being killed for its horn or monkeys being sold as "bush meat". Given the limited success of breeding programs for many species/morphs, if sustained breeding cannot be achieved, then it's really not much different.

Just my 2 cents


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## Ed

JimO said:


> As far as individuals not being able to control themselves, think about this. Assuming you'd never get caught and had the facilities to keep them, would your conscience allow you to purchase a snow leopard, cotton-top tamarin, giant panda, hawksbill sea turtle, etc.? If not, then why a dart frog? Does the size of the animal make any real difference? The novelty would wear off eventually and we'd be on to the next new morph.


Just a small clarification.. cotton top tamarins and snow leopards are legally available in the USA as cb animals. There are even breeders that hold legal golden lion tamarins..


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## JimO

Ed said:


> Just a small clarification.. cotton top tamarins and snow leopards are legally available in the USA as cb animals. There are even breeders that hold legal golden lion tamarins..


Understood. How about blue whales?


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## Ed

fred said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> It seems to be just a matter of attention from the smugglers/ hobbyists.
> 
> You can see there have been a lot of smuggling from country's like Costa Rica, Equador, Peru, Brasil, and more, also Colombia, now and then.
> The last few years in Colombia some area's got more accessible then they where before.
> Immediatly the poachers took there chances.
> 
> Which country's with heavy jungle are making patrol and are able to stop smugglers with this?
> Peru? Equador? Panama? Costa Rica? Brasil? still frogs are coming in from there too..
> 
> I would say Costa Rica must come most close with protection then; a small country with jungle turned into tourist parks now with walking paths, and stil frogs get smuggled, like 'blue jeans' and different granuliferus colour morphs ('grannies' like you call them overthere on the forums where they are for sale)
> 
> Madagascar; how much rainforest is left over there..last what i heard it was about only about 5 %.


Fred, 

I have repeatedly provided citations and links supporting my statements, while you have not. I'm not going to go through the efforts at this time and I suggest you look for other countries that have successful models. 

I am going to contrast this statement from the reference I cited above (post 92 in the relevent thread 



fred said:


> Months ago, a foreign smuggler started again to buy many frogs. First, as we understand, were asked 400 lehmanni . The collectors were unable to catch such amount, because they just did not find all those frogs, and supplemented this shippment with histrionica. While there, we were advised that again they are preparing a shipment, presumably of 1000 frogs.





fred said:


> How do you want to protect frogs in a jungle by rangers and patrolling? (by the way, there is a lot of patrolling going on on allmost every road, for different reasons), and they will intercept people with anything not legal, including frogs..
> How can 'shipments' being flagged by customs if they probably go through another country?


If there are the patrols are as prevelent and diligent as you state in the above quote, how are the frogs being transported anywhere? A ****** with a foriegn accent looking for frogs should be fairly noticible. If knowledge that a smuggler is trying to fill an order, where are the relevent authorites? How do the frogs get across the borders to be exported from a foreign country if there is the level of patroling, alertness etc that you indicate? I suggest reading through the link on the economics of smuggling... your statements are not supported by the literature on the economics of smuggling.... 

And again, why doesn't Colombia take action under the agreements signed by the various involved countries? 

The statement that all of the Zoo's frogs originated from confiscations does not supply any proof that there is any real effort to preven the smuggling. 

There are some discrepencies in the statements when combined without any corroborating evidence, makes it hard for me to believe that there is any level of interest in stopping the smuggling in Colombia. 

Ed


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## Ed

JimO said:


> Understood. How about blue whales?


Nope, those are off the list.. the marine mammal act would also put some serious crimps in thier ownership.. 

Ed


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## ChrisK

Ed, just like with my perfectly rational and relevant questions, I seriously doubt you're going to get any logical answers from him, probably just more redirection, finger pointing, and opinion on what others should be doing, while stating that it's impossible for any action to be taken THERE.


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## iljjlm

I think the ways that Ed pointed out make sense on how to stop *some* of the smuggling. I also believe that it should be the buyer's responsibility to not buy smuggled frogs. 
Here are some quotes from an article in the Spring of 2007 Leaf Litter Magazine. The article is titled "The Smuggling Crisis" by Mark Pepper, Evan Twomey, Jason L. Brown. 

" Those who knowingly purchase illegal frogs are every bit as guilty as the smugglers themselves and by doing so are directly encouraging this trend to continue. There is no justification for these practices. No one wins, not the frogs, not conservation, not the hobby, and certainly not the local communities. Supporting these smugglers is directly supporting the extirpation of these frogs from the wild and making it much more difficult for the sustainable projects to succeed."

"The best way to prevent smuggling
is to avoid purchasing illegal frogs."

If you want to read the full article I believe you can find it on Dendrobates.org.

Dave


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## skylsdale

Ed said:


> It is possible to support conservation through the keeping of frogs in glass boxes however unless the keeping of the frogs supports at least 2 (and ideally all three) of the following, we really are not keeping them in a manner that supports conservation...
> 
> 1) education of wide audience (including the locals from where the frogs originate)
> 2) conservation of the animal's habitat
> 3) sustaining wild populations or captive populations that have been managed in a manner to allow for reintroductions


This is worth having repeated.


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## fred

Well, Ed,

It seems that you ignore the examples I give.

In general;
I have no interest in proving someone wrong, or get my right; just important is to make the people understand it is wrong to buy smuggled, protected and endangered frogs.

I may assume that we are all serious hobbyists here and committed to what happends with the frogs we love so much.

REMEMBER: THESE FROGS ARE ONLY BEING SMUGGLED AND WIPED OUT OF THEIR HABITAT BECAUSE OF US HOBBYISTS.

Or does anybody else have another reason?

Are they being smuggled for medicine or religion, will they be turned into powder increases potency?

No, just for our hobby.

Start taking your own respondsibility, don't blame it on others.


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## ChrisK

I should buy a crystal ball and start charging money.


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## poison beauties

Then except the fact that the solution starts in the locale territories of these frogs. We can refuse them all we want but once they are removed from their habitats the damage is done. Do you have any proof of what is being done to stop it at the start of the problem? The smugglers physically taking them out of their habitats? Anything on these grounds? 
There is plenty of proof on our end that this is not condoned by most of our hobby, it is posted in many places on many forums. once again we cant control other counties from buying them but you can, Stop letting them out!
There will allways be more individuals who will buy them as they get rarer so the only definate way is in the hands of the frogs native countries.

Michael


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## skylsdale

poison beauties said:


> Stop letting them out!


We do need to realize it's not that simple. This just hit the Associated Press: The Associated Press: Malaysian airport staff rescue smuggled tortoises

This wasn't due to highly trained dogs, skilled top secred endangered species ops teams, etc...it just came down to someone working at the airport noticing that something was moving around in the luggage. Had they not, the smugglers would have made it out with _hundreds_ of endangered tortoises. Sometimes even proper infrastructures fail...and if there were purchasers on the other end for those tortoises, it would make it more tempting for the smugglers to attempt it again.

Will we _completely _stop the collection and demand for these sorts of animals? Realistically, probably not. But that doesn't mean we can't curb or at least drastically reduce it...and part of that comes down to the consumer/hobbyist.


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## Ed

Some of the participents in this thread are acting like this is a novel problem affecting wildlife, when in fact this is nothing new... for example wild psitticines were exported both legally and illegally in large numbers up until about 1992. (One of the ones that really parallels the frog hobby is in a five year period during the 1980s, over 50,000 grey cheeked parakeets were exported to the US (Some were rexported). Now in 2010 there are approximately 5 breeders in the entire US working with this species and no breeders in at least several EU countries working with this species). However crackdowns by the countries of origins really impacted the smuggling. 

The smuggling problem has become sufficiently well known that there are now economic predictions of it (which by the way support the idea that smuggling really only flourishes when it is relatively easy to smuggle the product versus the potential profit that can be realized). See the google link above. 

All of the models that have shown success in reducing and controlling smugging and poaching require education of the locals and some ability for them to make money that does not impact the animals involved. Otherwise the poaching and smuggling will continue and the habitat destruction will not stop (for example some of the large protected areas in India are failing because the locals are cutting down all of the trees for cooking and heating (this is also common in other countries). In Latin America, this is also a problem to a lesser extent but you also get locals clearing the land for farming and/or pasturage. 

This has held true whether it is a protected bush hog in Liberia, a fruit bat in Rodrigues, a tiger in India, or a toad in Puerto Rica or even a frog in North America.. 

Models that are nice feel good measures are issues like the sustainable seafood cards that get passed out.. despite many years of press and discussion behind those cards, there was little change in the rate of fishing for those species. It took closure of the fishing grounds before the rate of usage dropped (and even then some still show up on menus). 

I've been working in a conservation organization for almost 20 years now and have spoken to the people directly involved and have seen not only the discussions, but the models that have worked and given that they work for multiple taxa in multiple countries... 

Ed


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## Ed

skylsdale said:


> Will we _completely _stop the collection and demand for these sorts of animals? Realistically, probably not. But that doesn't mean we can't curb or at least drastically reduce it...and part of that comes down to the consumer/hobbyist.


Hi Ron,

There are some strong indications that voluntary reductions don't really impact the harvests.. look at some of the sustainable seafood recommendations, swordfish for one example.. 


Ed


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## skylsdale

Ed said:


> Hi Ron,
> 
> There are some strong indications that voluntary reductions don't really impact the harvests.. look at some of the sustainable seafood recommendations, swordfish for one example..


Good points...and after sitting back and looking at other examples, I realize the truth to that.


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## iljjlm

poison beauties said:


> Then except the fact that the solution starts in the locale territories of these frogs.


I think you mean *A* solution not *THE* solution starts in the locale territories of the frogs. Not buying smuggled frogs is also part of the solution.

A lot have said that smuggling cannot be stopped. If this is true than frogs will still end up in this country illegally. If we as hobbyists don't buy the frogs that will minimize the amount of smuggled frogs even more. 

I believe Australia was mentioned as a good plan to mimic in reducing smuggling. Do animals still get smuggled out of Austalia?



poison beauties said:


> There is plenty of proof on our end that this is not condoned by most of our hobby.


Do we know who buys the smuggled frogs in this country? Please let me know so I won't buy anything from them. Thanks

Dave


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## sbreland

fred said:


> REMEMBER: THESE FROGS ARE ONLY BEING SMUGGLED AND WIPED OUT OF THEIR HABITAT BECAUSE OF US HOBBYISTS.


Jesus Christ, are you serious?! Really??? So it's just the US hobbiest that are at fault here. It has taken me awhile to finally hit this but I think I finally figured out the problem here... fred has a personal issue with the US (Americans) and our way of life. Everything in these threads screams it but I just missed it until now. How bout dealing the blame to EVERYONE, which is where it belongs. I guess I forgot that the US makes up the bulk of the smuggled frog market and people in Asia and Europe have no fault or responsibility. WTF? Seriously, because of the US's import practices and laws we probably represent the smallest subsection of the problem because the frogs simply aren't coming here in numbers. Do some come? Yes, but not NEARLY as many as come in to other countries so don't even try to say US hobbiest are the root of the problem.



fred said:


> Start taking your own respondsibility, don't blame it on others.


fred, I think it's about time you start taking your own advice... 


Ed, 
You're a smart guy so I don't have to point this out but I will... fred doesn't have ANY affiliation with ANY government organization or any wildlife organization and that is why he won't answer what's going on down there... he has no clue. It would be like me trying to answer what exactly is happening in the USFW offices at JFK airport and what their plans are... I have no idea. fred is a well intentioned individual with little or no contacts to people that could REALLY make a difference, that's why he doesn't answer. He is well intentioned but apparently misinformed about what kind of protective measures his country could/has/ and are taking.


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## edwardsatc

I think he meant _us_, not US.

That said, I do agree that his efforts are probably misdirected.


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## Ed

iljjlm said:


> I believe Australia was mentioned as a good plan to mimic in reducing smuggling. Do animals still get smuggled out of Austalia?
> 
> Dave


I brought up Australia, and the answer is yes, there is still smuggling out of and into Australia but the number and types is fairly small.. The smugglers are often arrested before they get onto the plane and Australia has been known to put suspected individuals under surviellence once they get off the plane... 

Ed


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## iljjlm

sbreland said:


> Jesus Christ, are you serious?! Really??? So it's just the US hobbiest that are at fault here. It has taken me awhile to finally hit this but I think I finally figured out the problem here... fred has a personal issue with the US (Americans) and our way of life. Everything in these threads screams it but I just missed it until now. How bout dealing the blame to EVERYONE, which is where it belongs. I guess I forgot that the US makes up the bulk of the smuggled frog market and people in Asia and Europe have no fault or responsibility. WTF? Seriously, because of the US's import practices and laws we probably represent the smallest subsection of the problem because the frogs simply aren't coming here in numbers. Do some come? Yes, but not NEARLY as many as come in to other countries so don't even try to say US hobbiest are the root of the problem.


I believe he said us as hobbyists not US hobbyists. At least logically it makes sense.

Dave


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## iljjlm

Ed said:


> I brought up Australia, and the answer is yes, there is still smuggling out of and into Australia but the number and types is fairly small.. The smugglers are often arrested before they get onto the plane and Australia has been known to put suspected individuals under surviellence once they get off the plane...
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed. Do you know what their group/department/division is called that runs this? I would like to look up some more info on this, but do not know where to start looking. Thanks

Dave


----------



## sbreland

iljjlm said:


> I believe he said us as hobbyists not US hobbyists. At least logically it makes sense.
> 
> Dave


Since fred has said many times that he is not a hobbiest and has no frogs I'll go with he meant United States and not "us" until otherwise clarified and even then would still have my doubts...


----------



## iljjlm

sbreland said:


> Since fred has said many times that he is not a hobbiest and has no frogs I'll go with he meant United States and not "us" until otherwise clarified and even then would still have my doubts...


Glass half full kind of guy. Got ya. Maybe Fred will post again so we will know for sure.


----------



## poison beauties

iljjlm said:


> I think you mean *A* solution not *THE* solution starts in the locale territories of the frogs. Not buying smuggled frogs is also part of the solution.
> Dave


You apparently did not read or understand the setence you quoted of mine.
I said the solution STARTS in the country of origin and only there can it truely be fixed. While we can say no to these smuggled animals but once they are out its too late as far as stopping the smuggling as the frogs will not make it back to their natural habitat, Ed is right, they will still smuggle them out as they always have. They will just seek new buyers. This has been the only income for many smugglers so they will not stop until they are caught in the country of origin. Even then it may never end but if Colombia stepped up their game as other countries have it may help atleast keep these frogs around abit longer. Most are in danger from other circumstances as well and will never be saved in the long run.

Michael


----------



## rmelancon

Ed said:


> It is possible to support conservation through the keeping of frogs in glass boxes however unless the keeping of the frogs supports at least 2 (and ideally all three) of the following, we really are not keeping them in a manner that supports conservation...
> 
> 1) education of wide audience (including the locals from where the frogs originate)
> 2) conservation of the animal's habitat
> 3) sustaining wild populations or captive populations that have been managed in a manner to allow for reintroductions
> 
> Ed


Agreed, but for most hobbyists 1 and 3 are definitely not done and number 2 is only done if you make donations to foundations or I suppose buying frogs from Understory may qualify. 

Keeping frogs and other animals at an institution such as a zoo meets all of your criteria, and I agree they do a lot to promote awareness and ultimately support conservation. I would venture to say that your average hobbyists is doing very little for conservation through keeping frogs. Maybe I am alone in the realization that my keeping/breeding frogs as a hobby is doing little to help conserve them in the wild. That's not to say that I can't do other things in support of conservation but the hobby of keeping frogs at home is not one of them.


----------



## Ed

iljjlm said:


> Thanks Ed. Do you know what their group/department/division is called that runs this? I would like to look up some more info on this, but do not know where to start looking. Thanks
> 
> Dave


I normally just check the updates here TRAFFIC - Wildlife Trade News 

Ed


----------



## sbreland

rmelancon said:


> Keeping frogs and other animals at an institution such as a zoo meets all of your criteria, and I agree they do a lot to promote awareness and ultimately support conservation. I would venture to say that your average hobbyists is doing very little for conservation through keeping frogs. Maybe I am alone in the realization that my keeping/breeding frogs as a hobby is doing little to help conserve them in the wild. That's not to say that I can't do other things in support of conservation but the hobby of keeping frogs at home is not one of them.


IMO, 100% spot on. Most of us are kidding ourselves if we think that keeping frogs in tanks is anything related to conservation. The one thing that kills me about these arguements is people so often forget that in order to keep these frogs in captivity they've already undermined true "conservation" because they supported the frogs being taken from their natural habitat. Let's be honest and quit BSing each other... we keep these frogs because we like them and they have a lure to them, NOT because we are dedicated to their conservation. OTHER efforts (like supporting TWI/ASN or UE) SUPPORT conservation but keeping frogs at home for our enjoyment does not...


----------



## ChrisK

rmelancon said:


> Maybe I am alone in the realization that my keeping/breeding frogs as a hobby is doing little to help conserve them in the wild.


Actively breeding and distributing them indirectly supports conservation at least a little since it reduces the demand for importations, at least IMO


----------



## Ed

ChrisK said:


> Actively breeding and distributing them indirectly supports conservation at least a little since it reduces the demand for importations, at least IMO


Hi Chris,

This is only true if a sufficient number are produced to offset demand.. otherwise it does not do anything to reduce imports. The consistent imports of D. auratus are a very telling clue in this case. 

In additon, in other species this has not been the case... see my comments on grey cheeked parakeets above.. in a 5 year period more than 50, 000 were imported and in a little more than ten years from the last import (and these birds should live for considerably longer than ten years) there are only 5 breeders in the US working with them.. down from a imported population in the literal thousands. 

Ed


----------



## iljjlm

poison beauties said:


> You apparently did not read or understand the setence you quoted of mine.
> I said the solution STARTS in the country of origin and only there can it truely be fixed. While we can say no to these smuggled animals but once they are out its too late as far as stopping the smuggling as the frogs will not make it back to their natural habitat, Ed is right, they will still smuggle them out as they always have. They will just seek new buyers. This has been the only income for many smugglers so they will not stop until they are caught in the country of origin. Even then it may never end but if Colombia stepped up their game as other countries have it may help atleast keep these frogs around abit longer. Most are in danger from other circumstances as well and will never be saved in the long run.
> 
> Michael


What came first the chicken or the egg? Are you going to go down there and do anything about it? 
Am I? No. I don't speak the language of the locals. I don't know anybody from that country. Nobody would probably listen to me because I am not from that country. Just like Fred is not from this country(people here seem to not listen to him) and Fred is not from Colombia. Why would they listen to him there. I do donate money to organizations that help with conservation. Do I know exactly what they do with it? No. So what can I do here, in the USA, to help. By not buying smuggled frogs. It is easy. You just say no. You could also report the people who offered you these frogs to the authorities. 

Mark Pepper, Evan Twomey and Jason L Brown wrote an article in Leaf Litter magazine. Under the heading of "What can be done?" they said "The best way to prevent smuggling is to avoid purchasing illegal frogs." Are they wrong?

Dave


----------



## Ed

iljjlm said:


> Mark Pepper, Evan Twomey and Jason L Brown wrote an article in Leaf Litter magazine. Under the heading of "What can be done?" they said "The best way to prevent smuggling is to avoid purchasing illegal frogs." Are they wrong?
> 
> Dave


This falls under voluntary methods for an individual to reduce smuggling or unsustainable harvest in any form, the problem is that this model by itself does not really reduce the level of smuggling or any other form of unsustainable harvest. For it to even be successful in the smallest amount, it requires a massive level of education and buy in by the hobby worldwide. If the buy into the plan isn't sufficient then it ends up being an ineffective program at large but it can be very satisfying on a personal level as you can say you haven't purchased any of the smuggled individuals. 

The problem is that in general these models have a poor success rate in detering the harvesting etc... as I cited above, it is not uncommon to see cards listing sustainable fish choices but despite wide distributions, quota restrictions etc, I can still go into my local supermarket and see people purchasing swordfish.. or other species on the lists.. 

Any truly successful program is going to have to start at the source with education and alternative revenue generation (unless you get lucky and it has enormous cultural influence like Rana Dorado in Panama) and include the other steps I referenced above. 



Ed


----------



## ChrisK

Ed said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> This is only true if a sufficient number are produced to offset demand.. otherwise it does not do anything to reduce imports. The consistent imports of D. auratus are a very telling clue in this case.
> 
> In additon, in other species this has not been the case... see my comments on grey cheeked parakeets above.. in a 5 year period more than 50, 000 were imported and in a little more than ten years from the last import (and these birds should live for considerably longer than ten years) there are only 5 breeders in the US working with them.. down from a imported population in the literal thousands.
> 
> Ed


Well THAT'S discouraging. Hopefully with some of the harder to breed and less frequently imported frogs, CB'ing would help a little on the demand side.


----------



## Ed

ChrisK said:


> Well THAT'S discouraging. Hopefully with some of the harder to breed and less frequently imported frogs, CB'ing would help a little on the demand side.


There are ways the numbers being generated could reduce the demand at least on a more local level.. 
If everyone held onto one or two species for the long-term. I'm talking as long as possible and bred those frogs with any surplus being sold to the pet trade (regardless if they get killed or not), then that may have an impact depending on the species involved.. as it would go a long way towards keeping the popularity from fluctuating as much. 

Ed


----------



## iljjlm

Ed said:


> This falls under voluntary methods for an individual to reduce smuggling or unsustainable harvest in any form, the problem is that this model by itself does not really reduce the level of smuggling or any other form of unsustainable harvest. For it to even be successful in the smallest amount, it requires a massive level of education and buy in by the hobby worldwide. If the buy into the plan isn't sufficient then it ends up being an ineffective program at large but it can be very satisfying on a personal level as you can say you haven't purchased any of the smuggled individuals.
> 
> The problem is that in general these models have a poor success rate in detering the harvesting etc... as I cited above, it is not uncommon to see cards listing sustainable fish choices but despite wide distributions, quota restrictions etc, I can still go into my local supermarket and see people purchasing swordfish.. or other species on the lists..
> 
> Any truly successful program is going to have to start at the source with education and alternative revenue generation (unless you get lucky and it has enormous cultural influence like Rana Dorado in Panama) and include the other steps I referenced above.
> 
> Ed


I agree with the action plan you listed here and the other threads. How do we get Colombia on board with it? I have read all three threads on this topic and I am not sure if I saw any solution to that. 
Did Australia just step up to the plate and decide on their own to take care of the problem in their country? Or did they have outside influences to help them along? If they did have outside influences, who was it? Are they still around? Do you think we could get them to help with other countries?
So in the mean time, while these governmets are/are not setting up their anit-smuggling laws/practices, do we just purchase the illegal frogs and say "they are here might as well?" or do we just say no?
I understand that it might only be a miniscule thing to do (saying no), but like the story of the kid and the starfish, it is a start.
The Starfish Story - Cat Rescue Version


Dave


----------



## fred

Hi sbreland,

I said indeed:

'THESE FROGS ARE ONLY BEING SMUGGLED AND WIPED OUT OF THEIR HABITAT BECAUSE OF US HOBBYISTS.'

If you would have read some of my other posts better, you could have understand that i'm talking about 'us hobbyists', that means the hobbyists international, all over the world, including myself.

And where in my posts did i say that i'm not a hobbyist?
I said that i don't have frogs at this moment, because it's not allowed here in Colombia without legal papers....unlike in other country's..

Try to think a little more international maybe, without the 'noone outside these borders orders us around' -feeling, that is not necessary, you're country is not under any attack..

I see no answers yet to my question why frogs are being smuggled else then for us (not only USA) hobbyists..?

If there's no other reason, I think that's the reason why they are being smuggled; for our hobby, or am i wrong?

Are the hobbyists who want these frogs in their collection, and pay money for them (so the smugglers have a market), living in the country's where they are smuggled from? 
No, that's not possible, cause then they don't need to smuggle them out of that country....

So why try to put the blame to the country's where they are smuggled from?

While we are the ones respondsible they get smuggled in the first place..


----------



## sbreland

fred,
Why is it so hard for you to accept that there is DUAL blame and that it is the hobbiest AND the Colombian authorities that aren't doing anything that is the cause? I think everyone here seems to be on board with that but you and you continue to insist it's just the hobbiest and that Colombia has no fault or nothing to change in this...


----------



## fred

sbreland,

Because the Colombian government (and also other governments) allready does everything in their power to protect the frogs, including the frogs being listed on a international protection/trading list, called cites. (should be enough)

They have no interest in buying frogs from smugglers, many hobbyists do..

If you have an alarm-system in your house, good locks on your doors, and still in the night a burglar sneaks into your house and steals your car-keys and your expensive car, are you the one to blame?
Did you want him to steal your car?

Is the burglar to blame? or the one who send him to go steal your car and buys it?
Or the police, who don't have the power to watch every house and every car?


----------



## ChrisK

Putting frogs on a list is the extent of their power I guess...............


----------



## Tony

fred said:


> Because the Colombian government (and also other governments) allready does everything in their power to protect the frogs


As Ed has repeatedly pointed out, no they do not. The Colombian government has not made any attempt to enforce their rights under the biopiracy treaty, they do not have effective patrols around the areas where the frogs live, and they do not effectively halt transport of frogs out of the country. 

To use your homeowner analogy, the Colombian government has put up a sign saying "Please do not rob me" but leaves the doors and windows open and does not confront anyone who enters their house or call the police after a burglary.


----------



## Ed

iljjlm said:


> I agree with the action plan you listed here and the other threads. How do we get Colombia on board with it? I have read all three threads on this topic and I am not sure if I saw any solution to that.
> Did Australia just step up to the plate and decide on their own to take care of the problem in their country? Or did they have outside influences to help them along? If they did have outside influences, who was it? Are they still around? Do you think we could get them to help with other countries?
> So in the mean time, while these governmets are/are not setting up their anit-smuggling laws/practices, do we just purchase the illegal frogs and say "they are here might as well?" or do we just say no?
> I understand that it might only be a miniscule thing to do (saying no), but like the story of the kid and the starfish, it is a start.
> The Starfish Story - Cat Rescue Version
> Dave



Australia went to the plate itself and began to police its wildlife many many years ago (somewhere back in the 1970s (I still remember chondros and shingleback in a pet store with signs on them saying Australia is shutting down better get them while you can written on the signs) if I remember correctly.. 

There have been a number of methods that have been attempted over the years to get various contries to engage in conservation programs and to reduce smuggling including the debt for conservation swaps I mentioned earlier but all of them (including the swaps) fail if the locals and the respective goverment do not accept the programs and get work from the ground up. The model that Fred continues to accept as the only model to use, is one that does not work because of the level of education required (all hobbyists in all countries where illegal frogs can end up have to 1) be educated on all legal and illegally exported species and 2) choose to not purchase them) and the amount of buy in required globally. This is why those programs have consistently failed... and part of the reason is because after a brief period of time, the phrase illegal, smuggled, endangered all lose their meaning as the listener gets desensitized from the constant exposure. This is one of the reasons these threads pop up every so often. After they haven't been beated to death for awhile, the sensitization settles back in again and the threads reemerge.... 

The programs that have worked to date have involved either a local community or a goverment that is willing to attempt to work to conserve the animals insitu. Those program particularly when they can find funding are the ones that make a difference. 

When someone is saying that there is nothing more to be done incountry and there has been no local on the ground program of education, demonstration that of value other than that of a quick dollar, etc that the programs are doomed to fail as the incountry support does not exist. Fred provided proof that the problem is known to be occuring in country (and I am accepting on face value that the "letter" was not a fabrication) and nothing is being done about it, see post #92 http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54624-illegal-frogs-forum-10.html.. the one titled "new crisis"...


----------



## sbreland

fred said:


> sbreland,
> 
> Because the Colombian government (and also other governments) allready does everything in their power to protect the frogs, including the frogs being listed on a international protection/trading list, called cites. (should be enough)


Honestly, if you really and truly believe this then I think that proves a lot and shows us why you approach this argument the way you do. There is no possible way any logical person could say they are doing all they can and Tony's example screams of the perfect analogy. I could spend hours destroying your points until you finally admit it's a dual cause to the problem, but instead I'm going to go have a nice tasty lunch and enjoy my day. Try and enjoy yours...

P.S... and to answer your question, it's the burglar's fault so go and catch him!


----------



## fred

Hi Tony,

Are you talking about this? 

Hope for an anti-biopiracy treaty in 2010

And how does Ed know about in Colombia they have no patrols down the roads?
Let me tell you, that for example when i drive from Cali to Dagua, I get stopped, search, papers checked and totally checked out my car, at least ones, sometimes even three times before i get there.
Don't try to have frogs or other illegal animals/ things with you..

Try to go through the airport with frogs or something else and see what happends..

I don't know where all this ignorance comes from to think that all these country's where the frogs are taken from does nothing to try and stop the smugglers.

While the truth is plain to see.


----------



## Tony

fred said:


> I don't know where all this ignorance comes from to think that all these country's where the frogs are taken from does nothing to try and stop the smugglers.


If that is true, how do you explain the dismal failure the attempts by Colombia and other Latin American nations to prevent smuggling, while countries like Australia and New Zealand have been very successful?


----------



## fred

Hi Ed,

You said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
'The model that Fred continues to accept as the only model to use, is one that does not work because of the level of education required (all hobbyists in all countries where illegal frogs can end up have to 1) be educated on all legal and illegally exported species and 2) choose to not purchase them) and the amount of buy in required globally. This is why those programs have consistently failed...'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't say it is the only thing to do; offcourse habitat-destruction has to be stopped, area's have to be protected, etc.

But all of this wil not stop the smuggling..and that is a fact.
Frogs get stolen from protected area's with ranger, it doesn't matter, they find a way, and a jungle is not an easy object to protect.
They can't even protect tigers there, so what makes you think they can protect a little frog?

You say it won't work to make regulations and register the frogs in the hobby, so it gets very difficult to keep illegal frogs out in the open?
You say it won't work to educate people who are suppost to keep out illegal frogs from the country by the cites-rules?
You say it won't work to educate the people in the hobby?
Did you actually try it? 

In Holland we do....and it works.
Don't ignore that..

In the past there have been many people in Holland keeping illegal frogs; there have even been smugglers who took the frogs from nature.
The frogs where being exposed in the open, just like here on this site, but not anymore.
If there are still illegal frogs around in Holland? probably, but for sure not a fraction from what it was in the past.
And for Holland they are very easy to get from Germany; just cross the border, there's no stop or control anymore, and buy your illegal frogs there.

Only Back in Holland, tell nobody about it, and don't show them around, and if you get offspring, don't sell them in Holland.
Get my point?

It is a fact that it is possible to reduce the amount of illegal frogs seriously in the hobby.


----------



## Afemoralis

Tony said:


> If that is true, how do you explain the dismal failure the attempts by Colombia and other Latin American nations to prevent smuggling, while countries like Australia and New Zealand have been very successful?



Islands?

-Afemoralis


----------



## Topete

there is only so much we can do... and we all know that most if not all governments are corrupt. When one gets a big enough bite they look the other way 

one great thing is that we are not being hypocrites and we admit to our faults. If one person lays a million bucks in front of you as a gift, would you ask if it's laundered money? or go spend it?

god knows i would buy a lambo


none the less smugglers and buyers can only be blamed to a certain extent, after that we can probably all see or have seen that the governments and their strict laws are the ones that make the changes.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Hi Tony,
> 
> Are you talking about this?
> 
> Hope for an anti-biopiracy treaty in 2010
> 
> And how does Ed know about in Colombia they have no patrols down the roads?
> Let me tell you, that for example when i drive from Cali to Dagua, I get stopped, search, papers checked and totally checked out my car, at least ones, sometimes even three times before i get there.
> Don't try to have frogs or other illegal animals/ things with you..
> 
> Try to go through the airport with frogs or something else and see what happends..
> 
> I don't know where all this ignorance comes from to think that all these country's where the frogs are taken from does nothing to try and stop the smugglers.
> 
> While the truth is plain to see.



Fred, 

then how do you explain how the following statement does not contradict the above statement (I already referenced it in post #105 in this thread) 



fred said:


> Months ago, a foreign smuggler started again to buy many frogs. First, as we understand, were asked 400 lehmanni . The collectors were unable to catch such amount, because they just did not find all those frogs, and supplemented this shippment with histrionica. While there, we were advised that again they are preparing a shipment, presumably of 1000 frogs.


If there is that much interest in the travel of people, how did with foreknowledge that it was occuring, did that many frogs make it out of the country? 

Fred, I have referenced the correct treaty a number of times in several thread, and you have yet to address the it. Try Biological Diversity Treaty.. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> You said:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 'The model that Fred continues to accept as the only model to use, is one that does not work because of the level of education required (all hobbyists in all countries where illegal frogs can end up have to 1) be educated on all legal and illegally exported species and 2) choose to not purchase them) and the amount of buy in required globally. This is why those programs have consistently failed...'
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I didn't say it is the only thing to do; offcourse habitat-destruction has to be stopped, area's have to be protected, etc.
> 
> But all of this wil not stop the smuggling..and that is a fact.
> Frogs get stolen from protected area's with ranger, it doesn't matter, they find a way, and a jungle is not an easy object to protect.
> They can't even protect tigers there, so what makes you think they can protect a little frog?
> 
> You say it won't work to make regulations and register the frogs in the hobby, so it gets very difficult to keep illegal frogs out in the open?
> You say it won't work to educate people who are suppost to keep out illegal frogs from the country by the cites-rules?
> You say it won't work to educate the people in the hobby?
> Did you actually try it?
> 
> In Holland we do....and it works.
> Don't ignore that..
> 
> In the past there have been many people in Holland keeping illegal frogs; there have even been smugglers who took the frogs from nature.
> The frogs where being exposed in the open, just like here on this site, but not anymore.
> If there are still illegal frogs around in Holland? probably, but for sure not a fraction from what it was in the past.
> And for Holland they are very easy to get from Germany; just cross the border, there's no stop or control anymore, and buy your illegal frogs there.
> 
> Only Back in Holland, tell nobody about it, and don't show them around, and if you get offspring, don't sell them in Holland.
> Get my point?
> 
> It is a fact that it is possible to reduce the amount of illegal frogs seriously in the hobby.


Fred, 
I wish you would read the references etc posted and stop attempting misdirections. You consistently refuse to actually address the points. By your own words, we are not discussing small quantities of the frogs, we are discussing shipments that are a thousand frogs.. (See the quote in the above thread) that was known to be occuring.... this is very different than any of the examples you try to use as a comparision... 


The real upshot from what you just posted is that Holland has increased enforcement. Okay that has reduced the visible trade in the illegal frogs. If you believe that has eliminated the trade in illegal frogs in Holland, then you are being naive and unrealistic. The only way to eliminate an illegal trade starts on the ground in the country of origin. 

Ed


----------



## james67

i think the key point here is that as ed has said , one of the most important changes is allowing the Colombian citizens to see that there is more value, monetarily, in keeping the frogs where they are then letting the smugglers take them. 

this is something that can only be changed in the country of origin, period.

james


----------



## fred

Hi Ed,

As long there is a demand, there will be a supply.

That's how it is. 

Educate the hobbyist and the demand for illegal frogs will go down.

On small scale in Holland (I do know something about this, because I've been in the hobby there from the eighties and seen it change), and on big scale world wide.

Nobody will ever be able to protect the frogs in the country's of origin against smuggling.


----------



## Ed

Again... 

Powered by Google Docs

Ed


----------



## Philsuma

edwardsatc said:


> I think he meant _us_, not US.


 
Apology over mistaken attitude - should be in order.......


----------



## poison beauties

fred said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> As long there is a demand, there will be a supply.
> 
> That's how it is.
> 
> Educate the hobbyist and the demand for illegal frogs will go down.
> 
> On small scale in Holland (I do know something about this, because I've been in the hobby there from the eighties and seen it change), and on big scale world wide.
> 
> Nobody will ever be able to protect the frogs in the country's of origin against smuggling.




You are missing the fact that once they are even taken from thier natural territories its too late, they are in the process of being smuggled. Once they are picked up and put into a container the natural order of things has changed. Every female picked up or male is the end of a line in nature. Even if the catcher is caught and the frogs are dumped out in the jungle that is just as bad as they are not where they belong. This could cause territory issues and even hybridizing if they were released in another locale. There will always be people that buy rare and illegal critters no matter how much we preach its wrong. The only permanent fix is a local one of the frogs original origins.

Michael


----------



## frogface

> Would you buy WC Lehmanni?


No, I would not.


----------



## NathanB

> Would you buy WC Lehmanni?


I'm pretty sure I couldn't afford it


----------



## ErikHa

I would never ever buy WC Lehmannii and frankly despise hobbyists that do. Because there is no 'good' reason to do so. 

As stated by Rob Melancon we are kidding ourselfs when we think the frogs we breed can be used to repopulate areas. These animals are far to weak to last long in the jungle. Then there is the simple fact that the Lehmanni getting smuggled into the countries are riddled with parasites, viruses and bacteria. They simply can not be bred instantly. 

Then there is the argument of 'saving' the frogs. What are we saving? Not the natural population. Instead we're damaging it by buying the Lehmanni. 
I think at best people buying these frogs are satisfying their own greed. 

Frankly i find some of the users comments here to be harsh on Fred. How many of us live in Colombia? How many have visited the country regularly? 
Yet some think they know all about this country by Googling and reading dissertations... 
I for one value the information from a local much more than from someone who's sitting behind a pc on the other side of the world. 

My assmumptions are that smuggling frogs is no billion dollar industry. It's not ruthless criminals that dominate this form of crime. I reckon it's mostly crazed hobbyists that go to these countries, disguised as tourists. Perhaps they use locals to find the frogs. 
They might bribe some officials, my point is: these are people we know. Let's get rid of these part-time criminals before they do any more damage.


----------



## pl259

Welcome to the board EriK.

There are some great points being raised in this thread. Despite evidence to the contrary, I feel there is reasonable value in demand side solutions. I'd like to hear more first hand information about the rules, regulations and enforcement in the Netherlands. Your english is very clear and easy to understand. Please share with us some of your country's history, relative to this issue.

Thanks,


----------



## Roadrunner

So breeding frogs in captivity does NOTHING to curb the demand for WC frogs?


sbreland said:


> IMO, 100% spot on. Most of us are kidding ourselves if we think that keeping frogs in tanks is anything related to conservation. The one thing that kills me about these arguements is people so often forget that in order to keep these frogs in captivity they've already undermined true "conservation" because they supported the frogs being taken from their natural habitat. Let's be honest and quit BSing each other... we keep these frogs because we like them and they have a lure to them, NOT because we are dedicated to their conservation. OTHER efforts (like supporting TWI/ASN or UE) SUPPORT conservation but keeping frogs at home for our enjoyment does not...


----------



## ChrisK

frogfarm said:


> So breeding frogs in captivity does NOTHING to curb the demand for WC frogs?


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...-would-you-buy-wc-lehmanni-13.html#post476899

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...-would-you-buy-wc-lehmanni-14.html#post476912


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## iljjlm

I was looking up what Australia was doing to help with animals not being smuggled out of their country. In a bunch of articles that I have read from the Sydney Morning Herald, it sounds like they do a pretty good job trying to stop the smuggling. They still say that a lot does get through. Another common theme is most of the mules are paid for by the Drug and Arms dealers. I remember hearing something this being the case in Colombia also. Anyone know more about this? If that is true I don't think the Colombian government can do anything to stop the wildlife smuggling. That's because they are probably never going to stop the drug trade in Colombia. They are outmanned and lack the funds to do this (plus most might be currupt{intentionally or threatened}).

Back to Australia.
One thing they did when the got stricter on their laws/enforcement was made anyone who wanted to keep wildlife(did not mention dogs/cats/livestock) had to buy a licence. With this they have meet requirements for the type of animals they keep and allow inspections. Some states/territories have banned completely the keeping of wildlife. Here is a link to the requirements for the State of Victoria(which is one of the more relaxed states. They do allow some animals to be kept without a licence, but it is very few.
http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/CA256F310...pplication+for+a+Private+Wildlife+Licence.pdf


The way all these laws and what not are trying to get passed here, maybe one day, the US will have the same laws/rules that Australia does. 

Dave


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## rmelancon

frogfarm said:


> So breeding frogs in captivity does NOTHING to curb the demand for WC frogs?


Unfortunately, no. Check the posts ChrisK pointed out. At best it has a very localized effect. Ed and others have pointed to many cases that give examples. I used to think that I could affect demand by breeding large numbers, but now I know it to be a very small effect. In the global scheme it is negligible. Don't take this the wrong way, breeding them for the hobby has it's merits.


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## Tony

rmelancon said:


> Unfortunately, no.


How many Azureus have been imported in the last 10 years?


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## iljjlm

Tony said:


> How many Azureus have been imported in the last 10 years?


Legally or illegally?


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## Tony

iljjlm said:


> Legally or illegally?


I know the almighty AZA had to import more because they mismanaged their stock, but as far as I know none have been imported for the hobby. They are probably the most commonly bred PDF, why would any hobby imports be necessary? How lucrative could it possibly be to smuggle a $30-50 frog? As far as I can tell they are a success story, habitat is protected and captive bred to the point that some now call them "rat frogs."


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## rmelancon

Tony said:


> I know the almighty AZA had to import more because they mismanaged their stock, but as far as I know none have been imported for the hobby. They are probably the most commonly bred PDF, why would any hobby imports be necessary? How lucrative could it possibly be to smuggle a $30-50 frog? As far as I can tell they are a success story, habitat is protected and captive bred to the point that some now call them "rat frogs."


The key here is that the country of origin has done what is needed to protect the habitat and managed what has been legally exported. Again it relies on the country of origin doing the right thing.


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## Tony

rmelancon said:


> The key here is that the country of origin has done what is needed to protect the habitat and managed what has been legally exported. Again it relies on the country of origin doing the right thing.


Isn't that what most of us have been arguing in favor of? Controlled harvest to establish the species in captivity along with habitat protection? Granted eggfeeders, and O. lehmanni in particular, are not as easy or prolific as D. tinctorius, but don't you think it would be better for Colombia to allow legal exports through an organization like Understory instead of prohibiting them then turning a blind eye to unsustainable smuggling? Why continue down a road that leads to failure instead of trying to emulate past successes?


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## ChrisK

Tony said:


> Isn't that what most of us have been arguing in favor of? Controlled harvest to establish the species in captivity along with habitat protection? Granted eggfeeders, and O. lehmanni in particular, are not as easy or prolific as D. tinctorius, but don't you think it would be better for Colombia to allow legal exports through an organization like Understory instead of prohibiting them then turning a blind eye to unsustainable smuggling? Why continue down a road that leads to failure instead of trying to emulate past successes?


No it's more like a clear split - some of us agree with that totally, others are insisting it's the hobby's responsibility to control the illegal exports from Colombia


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## poison beauties

Its simple, Colombia has to do their part to fix this. It happens to be the most work and I doubt they will take it on.

Michael


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## iljjlm

I think a lot of people are looking at this as if it is only Colombia's fault. Yes, Colombia needs to step up to the plate and inforce their laws more. They also need to set some sort legitimate "Farming" operation so the people that have to have these frogs have an option to buy them legally. They also need to educate the people of Colombia so they can help and not just hand out these frogs to anybody with some money. All this will take time and it won't stop all the smuggling. In Peru there is a legitimate farming operation and frogs still get smuggled from there. 
Here is where it is not just Colombia's fault to solve the problem. From what a lot of people posted here, some people in Germany are major smugglers. What is Germany doing to stop the import of smuggled frogs? If they busted more people coming back into their country that would slow down the importation of smuggled frogs. Australia has a list of people that are known smugglers and are then watched coming and going from their country. Germany can do this. Heck, we can do this. 
Also we can stop buying them. Yes this is only a small way to stop the smuggling, but it is still a way.

Dave


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## Tony

I agree with you, it will take a cooperative effort by Colombia, other governments, and hobbyists, but the change must start in Colombia. You and I can refuse all the smuggled lehmanni we want, they're still going to go to somebody. Legalized exports may not stop smuggling 100%, but it would be a really good start.


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## ChrisK

Looks like Colombia could get involved in the "German" aspect also if they had the desire to:



Ed said:


> Fred,
> 
> I have pointed out that Colombia has rights under treaty to engage other countries in enforceing antismuggling programs (such as the Biological Diversity treaty, of which not only is Colombia and Germany signatories, but so are Colombia's neighboring countries). I have seen no evidence that Colombia has any interest in enforcing its rights along these lines.


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## Baltimore Bryan

One of the biggest problems with the "if there is no demand from hobbyists there will be no need to smuggle them" line of thought is that the USA hobbyists are generally not the problem when it comes to illegally smuggling shipments of these frogs. I don't know where exactly they all go to, but it seems that many of these frogs are going to Germany or other European countries and Asia, with very very few, if any, illegally entering into the USA. So, even if all of the hobbyists here in America refused illegal frogs, that doesn't stop the problem at all. They will just go somewhere else. And even if this thread could (theoretically) reach every frog keeper in the world, it wouldn't change everyone's mind. Unfortunately, setting a good example by refusing illegal frogs can only do so much and there will always be demand by somebody who just doesn't care much about them and is greedy. I am not directly blaming Fred or Colombia here, but I agree that efforts to stop smuggling have to start in Colombia. By no means am I saying that it is easy to catch every smuggler in the act in the rainforest, but if you think that's tough... imagine trying to convince every hobbyist not to buy them and to prevent everyone in the world from getting them into their countries once they are out of Colombia...
Bryan


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## poison beauties

It is our responcibility to practice and preach the ethics of this hobby but we cant stop the smuggling. We are a small percentage of where the smuggled frogs go to. Once they ae collected in the wild its too late. It has to start in the counrty the frog resides in.
This debate is going in circles. Our fault their fault. Im going to bail on this and state that everyone can help to benefit the issue but the country of origin is responcible. Once they are picked up and moved its too late. It matters not where the frogs end up.

Michael


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## jubjub47

Tony said:


> How lucrative could it possibly be to smuggle a $30-50 frog?


Well auratus are still one of the most imported frogs and that's well within their price range. I've also heard that due to the high importation numbers they are one of the most smuggled as well.


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## sbreland

Can anyone explain to me a logical reason why this discussion is still going on? Rehash, rehash, rehash...


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## pl259

sbreland said:


> Can anyone explain to me a logical reason why this discussion is still going on? Rehash, rehash, rehash...


Schools out for the summer  Happens this time every year!


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## Boondoggle

I never thought I would miss mixing threads...ugh.


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## Roadrunner

If azureus were still over $500ea they would still be smuggled.


rmelancon said:


> Unfortunately, no. Check the posts ChrisK pointed out. At best it has a very localized effect. Ed and others have pointed to many cases that give examples. I used to think that I could affect demand by breeding large numbers, but now I know it to be a very small effect. In the global scheme it is negligible. Don't take this the wrong way, breeding them for the hobby has it's merits.


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## fred

Hi rmelancon,

A quick reaction on permalink 166;

Recently Suriname (country of origin of azureus) gave quota, and many D. tinctorius have been exported legal with papers, to all different country's.

Before that it is a long time ago that Suriname gave out quota.

However, the 'export' from D. tinctorius never stopped; even new morphs came in the hobby; f.e. 'Matecho'. (without papers)..

So in all these years without quota, you could still buy wc tinctorius, mainly they where smuggled to Germany, and sold to other country's from there.

Tell me, in what way is Suriname doing the right thing?? i don't see much of a difference..


Hi Bryan,

A quick reaction on permalink 173;

In the first place I gave a reaction on this forum because I was surprized about how easy people here think about keeping illegal frogs.
They show them openly on this forum, and they are talking about keeping them, and that they are for sale.
And I'm not just talking about frogs from Colombia, but also Equador, Costa Rica, etc.

Hobbyists are in contact with each other, so they can educate each other in this.

So people;
Just don't accept other hobbyists to keep illegal frogs and put our hobby in a bad light, and for sure don't make heroes out of them..
If they have no place to show them off, or sell them, then it will have a deep impact on the whole smuggling problem.
It's the only way.


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## Tony

fred said:


> In the first place I gave a reaction on this forum because I was surprized about how easy people here think about keeping illegal frogs.
> They show them openly on this forum, and they are talking about keeping them, and that they are for sale.
> And I'm not just talking about frogs from Colombia, but also Equador, Costa Rica, etc.


I have some legal Costa Rican frogs, it isn't fair to assume a frog is illegal just because the country of origin does not currently allow exports. I have no problem showing them openly because they are perfectly legal and legitimate, as I'm sure many of the others you like to point out are.


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## Julio

Fred, 
there have not been any legal export of Azurues in a long time and the recent quotas that were issued for tinct export were not for azurues.


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## Tony

Julio said:


> Fred,
> there have not been any legal export of Azurues in a long time and the recent quotas that were issued for tinct export were not for azurues.


Are they still considered a distinct species by Suriname and/or CITES?


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## Julio

as far as I know yes!!


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## ChrisK

fred said:


> In the first place I gave a reaction on this forum because I was surprized about how easy people here think about keeping illegal frogs.
> They show them openly on this forum, and they are talking about keeping them, and that they are for sale.
> And I'm not just talking about frogs from Colombia, but also Equador, Costa Rica, etc.
> 
> Hobbyists are in contact with each other, so they can educate each other in this.
> 
> So people;
> Just don't accept other hobbyists to keep illegal frogs and put our hobby in a bad light, and for sure don't make heroes out of them..
> If they have no place to show them off, or sell them, then it will have a deep impact on the whole smuggling problem.
> It's the only way.


Well I was just going to keep all info on the red heads to myself after being witch-hunted on here, but in light of that quote right there I'm tempted to update the breeding thread with just a photo here and there once in a while, there's no way I'm going to bow down to intimidation tactics which is what fred is suggesting, and obviously what his intent was when he started harrassing me in the breeding thread, especially when the frogs are obviously and proved 100% legal, and I urge anyone else with legal frogs not to be intimidated.
If fred wanted to go after people who own obviously illegal frogs, there are plenty of frogs showcased that were never exported from their countries of origin legally - histrionicus are not one of them.


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## puckplaya32

ChrisK said:


> .. especially when the frogs are obviously and proved 100% legal,


Did i miss when this happened? There is a difference between proving them legal and being unable to prove they were brought in with falsified paperwork.


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## ChrisK

puckplaya32 said:


> Did i miss when this happened? There is a difference between proving them legal and being unable to prove they were brought in with falsified paperwork.


Yeah it happened many many months ago so you did miss it. The froglets' paperwork was 100% LEGAL - if you have some evidence to the contrary then please present it - otherwise I would appreciate not publicly having false legal accusations made in my direction


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## puckplaya32

ChrisK said:


> Yeah it happened many many months ago so you did miss it. The froglets' paperwork was 100% LEGAL - if you have some evidence to the contrary then please present it - otherwise I would appreciate not publicly having false legal accusations made in my direction


I know all about "Froglets" imports didnt miss a thing just chose to not purchase those suspect frogs, and i m not here to make false accusations. However you do not know whether the paperwork was falsified at all or not, nor the circumstances of how the exporter acquired the frogs. That goes for all the imports of highly suspect animals this particular importer brought in.


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## ChrisK

puckplaya32 said:


> I know all about "Froglets" imports didnt miss a thing just chose to not purchase those suspect frogs, and i m not here to make false accusations. However you do not know whether the paperwork was falsified at all or not, nor the circumstances of how the exporter acquired the frogs. That goes for all the imports of highly suspect animals this particular importer brought in.


You were not there and did not see the paperwork for each froglet so you DID miss it, and calling legal frogs illegal is making false accusations. I can PROVE they're legal (even though I don't need to), you can not PROVE they're illegal.


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## puckplaya32

ChrisK said:


> You were not there and did not see the paperwork for each froglet so you DID miss it, and calling legal frogs illegal is making false accusations. I can PROVE they're legal (even though I don't need to), you can not PROVE they're illegal.



You cannot prove they are legal whether you want to or not, just cause the paperwork was accepted does not mean they are legal (as has been reiterated many times over the past few threads). Not once did i say they are illegal, thus i never made an accusation whether it be true or not. I do have emails from your importer expressly stating he does not know whether they are captive bred or not, this could present grounds for falsification of the import paperwork.


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## pl259

I think its safe to say Chris, that you have more paper work stating the legallity of your froglets than most everyone else. I don't have paper work on a single one of my frogs.


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## ChrisK

puckplaya32 said:


> You cannot prove they are legal whether you want to or not, just cause the paperwork was accepted does not mean they are legal (as has been reiterated many times over the past few threads). Not once did i say they are illegal, thus i never made an accusation whether it be true or not. I do have emails from your importer expressly stating he does not know whether they are captive bred or not, this could present grounds for falsification of the import paperwork.


You don't know who any of my importers or breeders are unless I state who they are, as far as you know someone (maybe a friend who lives in another country) bred these frogs and someone else (me) imported them, which in any case is none of your business, and I CAN prove they're legal, which is more than I NEED to do, conversely anyone else would need to PROVE they're NOT legal for them to be proved illegal, anything else is called SPECULATION (such as claiming falsified paperwork).


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## Tony

It's sad to see all the jealous people in here trying to tear down a guy who is having some success with histos.


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## puckplaya32

Damian need more, Chris? Its not tearing him down, i m glad hes getting tads but thats the easy part with histos. Getting them to feed and morph out is where the challenges are. The point I brought up is Chris cannot make the claim that they 100% proven legal with only CITES import paperwork.


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## ChrisK

puckplaya32 said:


> The point I brought up is Chris cannot make the claim that they 100% proven legal with only CITES import paperwork.


OK so how about you tell us how to prove them 100% legal?


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## puckplaya32

ChrisK said:


> OK so how about you tell us how to prove them 100% legal?


Start tracing their lineage back to the original import, if you run into "I dont know where they are from" or into a smugglers name than you cannot prove they are 100% legal. If this happens than you are likely dealing with animals that werent legally imported, especially with animals of this rarity. People tend to remember where they get uncommon things from. And before you go on to reiterate the previous threads on this as you always try to do, there are many species that are like this (they cant be proven legal).


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## ChrisK

puckplaya32 said:


> Start tracing their lineage back to the original import, if you run into "I dont know where they are from" or into a smugglers name than you cannot prove they are 100% legal. If this happens than you are likely dealing with animals that werent legally imported, especially with animals of this rarity. People tend to remember where they get uncommon things from. And before you go on to reiterate the previous threads on this as you always try to do, there are many species that are like this (they cant be proven legal).


Paperwork is the ONE way that frogs can be proven legal so I actually went further beyond what most hobbyists do to get legal frogs - can you say the same of the Adelphobates listed in your signature since no Galacts, Castis etc were ever legally exported, so YOUR frogs are definitely illegal right?


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## puckplaya32

ChrisK said:


> Paperwork is the ONE way that frogs can be proven legal so I actually went further beyond what most hobbyists do to get legal frogs - can you say the same of the Adelphobates listed in your signature since no Galacts, Castis etc were ever legally exported, so YOUR frogs are definitely illegal right?


No wrong again Chris, legal export paperwork from the country of origin with no conditions to release to the public is the ONE way that a frog can be proven without a doubt legal. So if you can without a doubt trace your animals to one of these legal exports, than you can PROVE it otherwise it is just a guess. Are you really that dense? I ve already told you in another thread that I dont own any of those frogs anymore, perhaps you should reread the other threads to gain a better grasp on the Lacey act and how it applies to our animals. F&W accepting a shipment does not mean the animals are legal, the animals could be reviewed anytime for 5 years afterwards and be deemed illegal, as well that time frame starts over with all offspring produced and any tranfers of ownership. If F&W were to review the importers paperwork and discover a falsification anywhere then it is very well possible all animals from that import could be deemed as illegal.


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## puckplaya32

No I did not call you dense for claiming to try and buy legal frogs(dont buy it, too convienent of a response for someone who tries to portray themselves as experienced). True captive bred histos/sylvaticus have just as high of demand in Europe if not more so than here, so why would they be sold at a discount versus the price people ask and receive for true captive bred animals. I called you that for the fact that you obviously remembered our previous discussion(since you just quoted the point of it) yet tried to portray yourself as you did not on the previous post. And as I said in other threads as I am sure you remember quite vividly too, is there are few people in the hobby who dont have frogs of questionable origin or can prove without a doubt that theirs are legal(its just the way this hobby has developed, I wish it wasnt that way but the things of the past cannot be undone without serious consequences to the hobby). Again back to the point of my posting in the first place without your little tangent, you cannot 100% PROVE your frogs are legal just as many cannot including the frogs I previously kept so you probably shouldnt go around claiming so.


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## fred

The trail of where a histrionicus is coming from, is very short and easy to follow back.

So if a histrionicus or sylvaticus or granuliferus is legal, this is very easy to proof..just a handfull of people have been breeding with those..

And the young frogs don't show up now and then in numbers all at the same time and every time of year another morph..

All pointing to the same 'breeders'..

If you want to be sure if you have a legal frog or not, just check it out if you really care about the frogs, and that they are not being wiped out because of you.


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## kyle1745

I just removed nearly 3 pages of worthlessness from this thread. I am going to say this one time, and that's it. 

Calling out the legality of other members animals stops here, and now. 

Discussing the legality of the animals is fine, but calling out other members is not. We are not here to police the world and or the hobby and I will not allow self proclaimed experts to do so at the expense of others.

If anyone has any questions please contact me.


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## kyle1745

I have read the majority of this thread and since there is some good conversation here I will leave it open as long as everyone can remain civil.


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## ErikHa

Tony said:


> It's sad to see all the jealous people in here trying to tear down a guy who is having some success with histos.


Tony, you claim the gorgeous Agalychnis annae was legally exported. How did that come about? 
As far as i know these are highly endangered species that only inhabit a small mountain slope in Costa Rica, a land that prohibits export of wildlife. They are being wiped out by chythrid to boot. I'm not questioning the legality of these frogs but i am insterested for which project they have been distributed amongst American keepers. I have yet to learn of such a project.


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## Tony

ErikHa said:


> Tony, you claim the gorgeous Agalychnis annae was legally exported. How did that come about?
> As far as i know these are highly endangered species that only inhabit a small mountain slope in Costa Rica, a land that prohibits export of wildlife. They are being wiped out by chythrid to boot. I'm not questioning the legality of these frogs but i am insterested for which project they have been distributed amongst American keepers. I have yet to learn of such a project.


Mine are descended from the last legal imports (in 2003 if I remember correctly), captive bred by Todd and Christina.


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## froglady

We've actually been offered illegal frogs before and flatly turned the person down. Now in all fairness looking back at it, it was before a raid at the Columbus show, we never saw the animals (they were supposedly in the car on a Summer day - if they were real, they were likely dead or dying because of the heat), and it was likely F&W just trying to see if we would bite. 

It's not worth getting caught. A lot of people got into a lot of trouble because of that raid. A couple of people did jail time. Many people on probation. Some can't even touch reptiles for years. It's not worth it. Just my 2 cents.


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## Ed

Tony said:


> Mine are descended from the last legal imports (in 2003 if I remember correctly), captive bred by Todd and Christina.


I think yours have a longer history than that... if I remember correctly, several people noticed that the annae that had been present in the hobby (and were legally imported and released) had pretty much disappeared. They engaged in a serious effort to track down the last of the frogs (running ads on kingsnake and other venues) and gathered up the last of the frogs in the hobby. From those frogs, the first breeding that had occured in years were done and offspring from those were redistributed into the hobby. It is from those distributed frogs that yours were eventually descended. 

Ed


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## Tony

Ed said:


> I think yours have a longer history than that... if I remember correctly, several people noticed that the annae that had been present in the hobby (and were legally imported and released) had pretty much disappeared. They engaged in a serious effort to track down the last of the frogs (running ads on kingsnake and other venues) and gathered up the last of the frogs in the hobby. From those frogs, the first breeding that had occured in years were done and offspring from those were redistributed into the hobby. It is from those distributed frogs that yours were eventually descended.
> 
> Ed


You are correct Ed, I should know better than to trust my memory. They are descended from a group that was legally brought in for research in the mid 90's. Todd and Christina received tadpoles from that project in 2006, which are the parents of my frogs. Thanks to Christina for setting me straight.


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## sbreland

It's interesting to me when people take the approach that the frog keeping hobby started in the early 2000's (or later) and that nothing that happened before that matters. It's almost like anything that happened before 2000 is a fairy tale... That's just one of the problems with these arguements... if you don't take into account the WHOLE history you don't get the whole picture and deciding just to forget about things in the past doesn't mean that it didn't happen (ie legal histo and lehmanni exports).



ErikHa said:


> Tony, you claim the gorgeous Agalychnis annae was legally exported. How did that come about?
> As far as i know these are highly endangered species that only inhabit a small mountain slope in Costa Rica, a land that prohibits export of wildlife. They are being wiped out by chythrid to boot. I'm not questioning the legality of these frogs but i am insterested for which project they have been distributed amongst American keepers. I have yet to learn of such a project.


----------



## fred

Hi sbreland,

I'm around in this hobby for quite a while, the first frogs I had was around 1975 when I was thirteen y.o., so I think I can say I take the whole history into account..

The're have been some imports from frogs like histrionicus, lehmanni, granuliferus, sylvaticus (also called histrionicus in those days) in the eighties, the problem was allmost nobody could breed these egg-feeders, so these imports where a dead-end.

Years and years these frogs got smuggled to supply the hobby; special from the nineties up til now it keeps on going.
Like it was a bottomless pit.
That's how lehmanni got wiped out.

Other frogs like D. tinctorius, terribillis, etc. are easy to breed, and they are stable in the hobby from the moment they where brought in.
That's the difference.

Everybody who is around a little bit longer and has a little experience, knows this.


----------



## Ed

sbreland said:


> It's interesting to me when people take the approach that the frog keeping hobby started in the early 2000's (or later) and that nothing that happened before that matters. It's almost like anything that happened before 2000 is a fairy tale... That's just one of the problems with these arguements... if you don't take into account the WHOLE history you don't get the whole picture and deciding just to forget about things in the past doesn't mean that it didn't happen (ie legal histo and lehmanni exports).


Yes,
which is why there were references provided early on in this and other threads to CITES quotas which should have demonstrated quite throughly that there were legal exports in the not too distant past, yet that information.... 

Ed


----------



## markpulawski

ErikHa said:


> Tony, you claim the gorgeous Agalychnis annae was legally exported. How did that come about?
> As far as i know these are highly endangered species that only inhabit a small mountain slope in Costa Rica, a land that prohibits export of wildlife. They are being wiped out by chythrid to boot. I'm not questioning the legality of these frogs but i am insterested for which project they have been distributed amongst American keepers. I have yet to learn of such a project.


Actually the Annae were brought in for research purposes only, permission for commercial activity for them was NOT given. A friend of mine recently checked their import status and confirmed this, he was very surprised that any had shown up outside of institutions, so beware everyone and be careful.


----------



## Ed

markpulawski said:


> Actually the Annae were brought in for research purposes only, permission for commercial activity for them was NOT given. A friend of mine recently checked their import status and confirmed this, he was very surprised that any had shown up outside of institutions, so beware everyone and be careful.


Mark,

What was the import date for those frogs? I am aware that this species has been present in the country since at least the 80s. 

Ed


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## Jeff R

Yawn! Seriously? Is this thread and the other hundreds like it being fueled by the same 10 or 12 people who think others want to here their "expert" opinion? Over and over it goes argued by the same people. Ed's the only one that ever sights factual evidence. He can't be the only college grad here. Didn't any of you listen to your professors? Sights your source otherwise NOBODY has to believe your word of mouth opinions.


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## fred

Here is a little bit more fuel..
I have no time to translate it, maybe someone else can do it?

Anyway, take notice that the frogs are taken of the nature-reserves..!!

See the next link:

Fundación ProAves: conservación de aves y sus hábitats en Colombia - Tráfico ilegal de especies en Colombia


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## slipperheads

I just threw this into a translater, but you get the point:

Thursday June 24, 2010. 



> Colombia by their location in the tropic, on the equatorial zone, favors the presence of an extensive variety of climates and ecosystems, as for example the forests of fog, humid forests, marshes, mangrove swamps, etc., each one with specific characteristics that permit the establishment of a great diversity of species.
> 
> The great biological diversity of the country locates it among the first in biodiversity of the world, occupying the first position in birds and amphibious and the second in flora and butterflies. Unfortunately for Colombia its diversity has been white of the illegal traffic of wild fauna, activity that after the drug trafficking and the traffic of weapons is one of the most profitable economic actions and that damages of great way the populations of wild species, considering that currently, almost 2000 species of fauna, they are found in danger of extinction. In Colombia, the illegal traffic of species affects to 234 species of birds, 76 of mammals, 27 of reptiles and 9 of amphibians (Ministerio de Ambiente, Vivienda y Desarrollo Territorial), occupying the second place in traffic of species to global level (Caracol Radio).
> 
> The illegal traffic is like a pyramid, begins with the rural ó native who they take charge of extracting the species of its natural habitat, and to deliver them an intermediary that transports them and he negotiates whether inside our country ó carries out the contact with international dealers who finally take charge of carrying out the sale abroad.
> 
> 
> 
> Images of internet.
> 
> The situation is more criticizes due to that the people that trafican with biological species does not do it with techniques that guarantee the welfare of the animals, just as reflects itself in the cases of seizure, where the malnourished animals are found, doped, frozen, with fractures and in general with the consequences that implies its secret transportation inside the most unimaginable media: motor, accounts receivable, rims, shoes, cylinders, etc., causing That between the 50 and 80% of these species, they dwell in the long and arduous crossing. It exposed the previous thing, the panorama that has is the following one, an extractive pressure of wild species exists product of the demand of individuals and/or products to attend an illegal commerce to national and international level, situation that is aggravated if the quantity of animals is considered that should be extracted for comply with this demand under the conditions previously exposed, being becoming another cause of extinction of species.
> 
> Recently the report of the unauthorized extraction of the poisonous romper suit was presented (Oophaga histrionicus) in neighborhood of the nature Preserve of the Birds THE Pangan, area protected located in the western face of the western mountain range, in the foot of mount nariñense and that belongs to the municipality of Barbecues, Nariño, a rich zone in endemic species that are being focus of the unscrupulous dealers of wild fauna. The private case of extraction of amphibians belonging to the family dendrobatidae, is motivated not alone by the showiness of its species but also by the medicinal properties of the substances that in its skin. In the case of the romper suit (Oophaga histrionicus), is known that secret an alkaloid espiropiperinídico, the histrionicotoxina, which blocks the broadcast neuromuscular, for which has been investigated for the production of medicines, and advances in the knowledge on its application in the processing of the Alzheimer, the syndrome of Down and the miastenia serious, nevertheless, is also required as pet by collectors of species generally of foreign origin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is necessary that the people we become aware of the damage that him is done to the ecosystems supporting the traffic and illegal commercialization of species, with this not alone behavior itself this exhausting one of the global patrimonies of the humanity, but the most important assets than has the country. It should begin to reflect and to understand that the wild animals cannot live in captivity, they are not conditioned to do it, they need their space, their food and to interact with individuals of their same species. Thus therefore, many we believe that still we are to time to brake this illegal market that has irreversible long-term and incalculable effects in terms of loss of our biological diversity.
> 
> It knows the Reserve of Amphibious Golden romper Suit


----------



## sbreland

fred,
It's amazing to me that you're still at this. We know that there is smuggling going on... we've established that. We've also established that until Colombia does something to quell the problem it's NOT going to change yet you still trumpet smuggling on here like it's everyone else's fault BUT Colombia's. Let's try a little example that's not quite the same, but works. Costa Rica. Now years ago collection and export was legal and as I remember hearing some were concerned about overcollection (not sure if this was a realistic fear or just fear) so Costa Rica closed it's borders. Good... step 1. Next they enacted LAWS (ie, read that the government getting involved) about removal of natural resources and ACTUALLY enforced them. They also developed the idea of Eco-tourism and habitat conservation. Does habitat still get destroyed? Sure, but not NEARLY as bad as before. They also made efforts to stop smuggling... sure some STILL get out but the numbers are down dramatically when the attempt is really made. The result?? LOTS of natural habitat preserved and in some places the densities of Blue Jeans pumilio are so so thick that you have to be careful where you step. Now is this any different than Colombia?? Well, admittedly yes, there are differences but you can see that the model DOES work when a country takes a concern with it's OWN issues and doesn't expect the rest of the world to be it's police and enforce it's laws. Fred, perhaps you should read the thread about the Brazil conservation project... maybe that will give you the motivation to actually DO something as well as the proof it can be done instead of coming on here making Colombia's problems everyone elses fault.


----------



## ChrisK

Looks like he was just trying to get the thread restarted, so I was considering posting a reply with something like "Wait, you mean animals get smuggled out of Colombia?!?! "


----------



## Roadrunner

Great post Fred. I liked the video and the guy from the Netherlands was speaking English but I couldn`t understand the park ranger they were paying for to police the area. Did anyone catch what species was in the video?


----------



## Philsuma

Jeff R said:


> Yawn! Seriously? Is this thread and the other hundreds like it being fueled by the same 10 or 12 people who think others want to here their "expert" opinion? Over and over it goes argued by the same people. Ed's the only one that ever sights factual evidence. He can't be the only college grad here. Didn't any of you listen to your professors? Sights your source otherwise NOBODY has to believe your word of mouth opinions.


Academics are one thing....but this is the exotic animal hobby......hobby.....

There are no cites or published info. If you want to know how importing and smuggling "works", you are either gonna have to accept an opinion or two.....or not. 

This isn't academia......


----------



## Afemoralis

That is the best quote to ever make it to Dendroboard:



§lipperhead;481447 said:


> It knows the Reserve of Amphibious Golden romper Suit



I think Amphibious Golden Romper Suits (AGRS) need to be given out as awards to folks in TWI/ASN.

I totally want one. I can just hear it now: 
"You look so dashing in your Amphibious Golden Romper Suit!"

"Yes, well, I'm off to save the frogs. Please don't step on my cape."


Cheers,

Afemoralis


----------



## Ed

Philsuma said:


> Academics are one thing....but this is the exotic animal hobby......hobby.....
> 
> There are no cites or published info. If you want to know how importing and smuggling "works", you are either gonna have to accept an opinion or two.....or not.
> 
> This isn't academia......


But it does not mean that academia does not apply nor do research skills not apply.. for example the Biodiversity Treaty comments I made earlier that have yet to be addressed.. 

Ed


----------



## puckplaya32

frogfarm said:


> Great post Fred. I liked the video and the guy from the Netherlands was speaking English but I couldn`t understand the park ranger they were paying for to police the area. Did anyone catch what species was in the video?



Yes its a good video and post. The frog shown is R. dorisswansonae. Is there only one ranger for the whole preserve?


----------



## skylsdale

Afemoralis said:


> I think Amphibious Golden Romper Suits (AGRS) need to be given out as awards to folks in TWI/ASN.
> 
> I totally want one. I can just hear it now:
> "You look so dashing in your Amphibious Golden Romper Suit!"
> 
> "Yes, well, I'm off to save the frogs. Please don't step on my cape."


Ha! I'll see if we can get a batch custom-made before Microcosm rolls around. The key, of course, will be finding the perfect shade of gold-colored fabric. Maybe something with a metallic sheen?


----------



## ChrisK

Afemoralis said:


> That is the best quote to ever make it to Dendroboard:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Amphibious Golden Romper Suits (AGRS) need to be given out as awards to folks in TWI/ASN.
> 
> I totally want one. I can just hear it now:
> "You look so dashing in your Amphibious Golden Romper Suit!"
> 
> "Yes, well, I'm off to save the frogs. Please don't step on my cape."
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Afemoralis


I'm at work and almost laughed a little too loud


----------



## fred

Hi sbreland;

Thanks, I take that as a compliment.

Only i don't see what your point is with Costa Rica; blue jeans pumilio's and granuliferus are still being smuggled..

Hi frogfarm;

The reserve you're talking about is in Tollima, the species there are Ranitomeya tolimense and R. dorisswansonae, two endangered species.
There is one ranger, and the frog-club (DN) in Holland pay his salary.

The habitat is safe now, but this doesn't mean the frogs are safe like you can see.
There goes the theory that it's only a matter of habitat-protection; these frogs where allready for sale in Germany just after the reserve was realized..

Ed; 

Like you can see it is impossible to seal off and protect a small peace of left-over forest, do you really seriously think it is possible to seal off a whole country.....?

Like I said before: the only reason these frogs get taken from their habitats is because of the hobbyists.

Slipperhead;

Thanks for the translation, only I see there is a little commotion about a 'amphibious golden romper suit'..

Afemoralis; it is not a big deal when someone step on your cape; you get a bigger problem when you actually think you can fly whit the suit..

But maybe it is a good plan to give one to the rangers..the native people are quite superstitious, if they see something walking around in the bush like that, they will run away and tell the Germans to go and catch the frogs themselves the next time..


----------



## Ed

Fred,

That is what the biodiversity treaty was meant to deal with.. obviously despite being a signatory, Colombia has no interest in enforcing thier rights under the treaty (and as I noted Germany is also a signatory..). 

I am also going to refer back to the discussions above where you claim that the areas are heavily patrolled and searched.. exports were known to being set up and as a result there is a lot of discrepency in what you have reported occuring and the protections supposedly occuring in country. 


Ed


----------



## sbreland

fred said:


> Hi sbreland;
> 
> Thanks, I take that as a compliment.
> 
> Only i don't see what your point is with Costa Rica; blue jeans pumilio's and granuliferus are still being smuggled..


Ummm.... wow. Just wow. I really can't think of anything else to say but this is obviously pointless.


----------



## fred

Hi Ed;

I must admit that i didn't study this 'biodiversity treaty' very well, so i will do that when i have a litte more time.

Only thing i'm saying that it is impossible to seal off a country, specially if it's full with jungle wich knows no borders..

There is indeed a lot of police and military patrolling the roads here, but off roads it is looking for a needle in a haystack.

Hi Sbreland;

That's what i'm saying; it is pointless only to protect habitats and do nothing against the smuggling..


----------



## Philsuma

Whatever species that will bring the most money, the quickest, will be targeted.

Another factor the logistics. A friend or relative with a house in the countryside of a particular country. A working knowledge of an "easy" airport to get away with stuff, for example.

Additional airport guards? Frog sniffing canines? We already know the skeletal structure makes frogs impossible to detect with most x-rays or similar scanning machines. 

Kids are risking serious jail time to become drug mules everyday and we can barely put a dent in that. I just don't see how we are going to keep the frogs out... or in....or, in and out.....or both.


----------



## fred

Hi Philsuma;

You're right, that's why it is so important to educate the hobbyists in your club, registrate all the frogs everybody's keeping, breeding and selling.
Keep up the bloodlines etc.

It all starts (or ends) with and because of the hobbyists.

To start with it should not be possible to show around with illegal animals, (this wil only motivate others to do the same) 
If it is so easy, others will be thinking about doing the same because it is obviously possible and they can get away with it..

As long people turn the ones who keep protected, illegal animals into some kind of local heroes, there is something seriously wrong with the attitude in this hobby.


----------



## ChrisK

I'm kind of curious who these "local heros" are that are always being referenced?

EDIT: And before anyone points a finger at me..........noone has sent me my Amphibious Golden Romper Suit yet so don't be expecting any heroic action until then..........


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> Hi Philsuma;
> 
> You're right, that's why it is so important to educate the hobbyists in your club, registrate all the frogs everybody's keeping, breeding and selling.
> Keep up the bloodlines etc.


Thats a nice thought...but realistically its just never going to happen. Not on the scale you seem to want. At least in the U.S. Its to wide spread...to many kids keeping darts that could care less (though some do)...Information thats already been lost, and people who are just to lazy or don't feel like its worth it, or aren't active on any of the boards and don't really keep up with the "hobby" other then to pick up the occasional frog from a show or breeder. A lot of people just feel its enough that they personally track the info regarding their frogs and pass it on to people they distribute animals to and leave the responsibility to do the same up to that person.



fred said:


> It all starts (or ends) with and because of the hobbyists.


I think thats placing way to much on the shoulders of the hobbyist. Yes we should not condone smuggling(but what constitutes condoning? Opinions vary), yes we should avoid buying smuggled frogs, or even frogs with suspect origins. But there are still debates on whether some very common species in the hobby are technically legal. These frogs have in effect become "naturalized"....We should strive to avoid this in the future, but I don't wanna see all the galacts, azureus or any other animals where the origins have been questioned pulled from the hobby and their keepers crucified where the majority of those people were under the impression at least that the source was legit. What happened to all the Adelphobates castaneoticus? Used to be a fairly common frog..I'd see it offered all the time but after questions of its legality surfaced that frog has just kinda faded away...is that a good thing? Frankly I'm not sure. I'm sure they are still out there and some breeder may even be willing to offer them for sale publicly, but thats one example where the hobby kinda took action and many said at least in a passive kinda way (by not buying, offering, or posting pics of that frog) that "hey many of us aren't comfortable with the status of this frog in the hobby anymore" So I think its unfair to imply that we completely ignore the situation or do nothing.

As others have stated the Countries involved here have failed badly in protecting themselves and each other and making it hard to know exactly what is legal and where its legal. And then of course the smugglers and distributors who work with them share a major portion of the blame. While I applaud your concern I think you over simplify the problem, and expect solutions that are unrealistic if not out right impossible. About all the average hobbyist can do is avoid the purchase of illegal or suspect frogs and be vocal towards people who are not so responsible. Of course there is disagreement where some lines should be draw...to expect this to just disappear is unrealistic. Many just wanna stay out of the drama...and say "hey nice frog"...I personally am not comfortable condemning someone unless I'm 100% sure they were knowingly involved in the smuggling and/or purchase of a smuggled frog and usually thats impossible for the average person here reading posts to discern.



fred said:


> To start with it should not be possible to show around with illegal animals, (this wil only motivate others to do the same)
> If it is so easy, others will be thinking about doing the same because it is obviously possible and they can get away with it..


I am in some agreement here, I think we sometimes turn more of a blind eye then we should though at least on DB we have to be very careful given the rules what we say sometimes. When some guy comes out of no where and starts selling or posting pics of nearly impossible to get frogs I do think it is ok to question that person and expect more out of them then..."I know a guy who knows a guy" ...and those people should be willing to post copies of permits/papers IMO. At the very least they should expect to answer a few questions if they are going to make those kind of posts, and not be defensive about it as long as the questions are legit and the tone civil. I have seen a few fishy things, such as posts and pics regarding rare species being pulled by the poster after the sale on some forums...but I don't know all the details of whats going on there so I don't feel comfortable attacking that person, and I also prefer to stay out of much of the behind the scenes drama that goes on in this hobby. Perhaps some feel thats not right(that I'm not being a "responsible frogger" by staying out of a lot of that)...but others agree or at least understand, and thats one of my points. There are so many perspectives here its almost impossible to draw a line anywhere that everyone will agree with and act in accordance with.



fred said:


> As long people turn the ones who keep protected, illegal animals into some kind of local heroes, there is something seriously wrong with the attitude in this hobby.


I personally haven't seen much if any of this in my 6 years in the hobby. I'm not saying it doesn't or hasn't occurred but I think you overestimate its prevalence. It would be very hard for anyone not living here and not actively involved in the U.S. side of the hobby, talking with Dendro Board members and other forum members publicly and behind the scenes along with people at shows and others not active online to truly appreciate/understand many of the aspects of the hobby here and the circumstances the members of that hobby find themselves in. I've been in it for 6 years and there is still a ton of current and past things I am unaware of and even furture goings on that some know about that I'm unaware of. 

Anyways I welcome you and your opinions and especially your concern for the animals but I think many of us feel you are placing to much blame or responsibility on the Individual hobbyist while ignoring so many others who should share the burden. You've kinda presented yourself in an antagonistic manner, laying blame, provoking or inflaming others whether intentionally or not while offering few realistic solutions to any of the problems. I think your intentions are good, but you should realize presenting yourself in such a way is likely to hinder any efforts to effect the hobby or the people in it in a positive way. 

But welcome...and good luck to you


----------



## fred

Well, here's some information written in English now (without the golden romper suit).

Check it out:

Fundación ProAves: conservación de aves y sus hábitats en Colombia - Critical Alert: illegal frog traffickers in Colombia.


----------



## Taron

I wouldn't buy these guys but i would trade my first un born child for a trio.....lol


----------



## Rain_Frog

I would buy as many as possible and donate all the money from the offspring towards protecting them in the wild-- assuming these were not smuggled.


----------



## james67

red or yellow? 

james


----------



## Dendro Dave

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I wouldn't buy these guys but i would trade my first un born child for a trio.....lol


I'd trade your first un born child for a trio also!  ...maybe a pair

Maybe if we start trading children for frogs the authorities will finally step up enforcement!!!


----------



## sbreland

fred said:


> Well, here's some information written in English now (without the golden romper suit).
> 
> Check it out:
> 
> Fundación ProAves: conservación de aves y sus hábitats en Colombia - Critical Alert: illegal frog traffickers in Colombia.


Yikes... putting the actual name of a "suspect" there is pretty slippery territory. Whether or not he's actually behind this probably has not been proven yet but it didn't stop them from printing his name which opens up all kinds of slander and libel issues... if it was the US. Guess in good ol Colombia it's guilty until proven innocent.


----------



## fred

By the way, if you want to buy some more 'culture-bred' histrionica, here they are:

histrionica bullseye red/orange

I allready said on the other thread they where coming in..

By the way; did you notice they start writing more and more in English?
Probably pays-off..


----------



## Ed

Are they being offered in the US? no... 

Has Colombia complained to the US Goverment (particularly USF&W) about the illegal trade? Again no... 

Ed


----------



## fred

A little reminder here: Illegal frogs on this forum

These 'cb' bull's eyes are from the same source where the 'cb' redheads are coming from.

I'm sure many people over there allready got them offered by personal mails.
That's how it works.

By the way, here: Dart Den - View topic - SOLD the redheads where offered.

and here: Dart Den - View topic - Pumilio and Grannies ''blue jeans' and 'grannies'..

Look at the thread about 'mysteriosus' at this moment, is the same subject.


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> A little reminder here: Illegal frogs on this forum
> 
> These 'cb' bull's eyes are from the same source where the 'cb' redheads are coming from.
> 
> I'm sure many people over there allready got them offered by personal mails.
> That's how it works.
> 
> By the way, here: Dart Den - View topic - SOLD the redheads where offered.
> 
> and here: Dart Den - View topic - Pumilio and Grannies ''blue jeans' and 'grannies'..
> 
> Look at the thread about 'mysteriosus' at this moment, is the same subject.


There are no actual links there.

But I was already aware of the threads and who the posters are. 
The first poster that had the red heads...I don't know all the details surrounding him and his frogs, though I know there has been a lot of drama. I personally find it a little fishy when someone comes out of no where a few years back and all a sudden starts acquiring very very hard to get frogs, and especially when that Person later starts removing all the info out of their for sale posts but again I don't know the circumstances so beyond thinking its a lil fishy without knowing more I won't comment further.

The second post, pumilio and grannies, I am more familiar with that poster, and while I know there has been a lot of personal drama surrounding him and other people, (not me, I've always got along with him fine) my perception was always that he and his frogs were on the up and up legal wise...If there is information to the contrary and someone wants to fill me in on it in PM I'd be interested...that goes for the first poster also in case I were ever to want frogs from either.`As it stands right now I would have no hesitation in purchasing frogs from the second poster as I've never been told anything about them to give me pause. I would be less inclined to purchase from the first poster.


----------



## james67

OMG! no way! are you super cereal? 

but seriously this is, in my opinion, vendor feedback. you are obviously making a negative judgment on someone who you don't know, and who has a reasonably high standing in the US hobby as well as academia. the only thing you are accomplishing is driving people (some who have a vast knowledge of the subject and how to help populate the US community with CB animals) underground for fear of persecution from the new frog police king and his minions. please stop with the accusations and drop this. nothing has been said in the last week or so that hadn't been said before. go learn Japanese and annoy those people. i think its pretty obvious how your being received here and i can assure you its not good. the only contribution i've seen you make is accusing people and the hobby in general of supporting illegal activity. why don't you show us how its done and spend the time you are using to post defamatory comments (with NO proof) to actually go and volunteer with the conservation efforts currently in place in Columbia? 

and with that i bid you and the threads you have dragged on adieu. 
james


----------



## sbreland

Dendro Dave said:


> The second post, pumilio and grannies, I am more familiar with that poster, and while I know there has been a lot of personal drama surrounding him and other people, (not me, I've always got along with him fine) my perception was always that he and his frogs were on the up and up legal wise...If there is information to the contrary and someone wants to fill me in on it in PM I'd be interested...that goes for the first poster also in case I were ever to want frogs from either.`As it stands right now I would have no hesitation in purchasing frogs from the second poster as I've never been told anything about them to give me pause. I would be less inclined to purchase from the first poster.


Oh, no need to PM anything because fred doesn't base his accusations on fact... just whether someone has a frog or not. To him, anyone that has these certain frogs is dealing with illegal frogs because he doesn't bother himself with researching the posters history or the fact that Rich has been working with grannies for years or that his stock HAS legitimatley been around since the original imports came in. Like I said... no matter where the frogs came from... obviously if anyone has them then they are from illegal means, at least according to fred.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> By the way, here: Dart Den - View topic - SOLD the redheads where offered.
> 
> and here: Dart Den - View topic - Pumilio and Grannies ''blue jeans' and 'grannies'..


 Fred,

Is there any particular reason you have chosen to not raise the issue where the frogs listed above were sold and are instead spending all of your time on here where they were not advertised for sale? I am surprised that you are spending a lot of time on here while ignoring other sites of which you are obviously aware. 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

No, I got the grannies that were in the hobby 12 years, his current are from someplace else.


sbreland said:


> Oh, no need to PM anything because fred doesn't base his accusations on fact... just whether someone has a frog or not. To him, anyone that has these certain frogs is dealing with illegal frogs because he doesn't bother himself with researching the posters history or the fact that Rich has been working with grannies for years or that his stock HAS legitimatley been around since the original imports came in. Like I said... no matter where the frogs came from... obviously if anyone has them then they are from illegal means, at least according to fred.


----------



## Roadrunner

Probably because the people who bought them are more active on this board.


Ed said:


> Fred,
> 
> Is there any particular reason you have chosen to not raise the issue where the frogs listed above were sold and are instead spending all of your time on here where they were not advertised for sale? I am surprised that you are spending a lot of time on here while ignoring other sites of which you are obviously aware.
> 
> Ed


----------



## markpulawski

sbreland said:


> Oh, no need to PM anything because fred doesn't base his accusations on fact... just whether someone has a frog or not. To him, anyone that has these certain frogs is dealing with illegal frogs because he doesn't bother himself with researching the posters history or the fact that Rich has been working with grannies for years or that his stock HAS legitimatley been around since the original imports came in. Like I said... no matter where the frogs came from... obviously if anyone has them then they are from illegal means, at least according to fred.


Original import Grannies?? You mean the couple hundred that came through the Keys around 8 - 10 years ago? Or the European "legal" imports? Some have come in for research only but certainly not to be available for commercial activity. 
All of these populations of rare egg feeders could have easily sustained limited harvest over the years, too bad the "slash & burn" take every last animal attitude of the smugglers has taken some of these populations to the brink. I would bet the populations of many of the Pumilio taken in decent numbers by the "farmers" in Panama have since rebounded to almost normal #'s or will if left for a year or 2.


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Probably because the people who bought them are more active on this board.


There are also other forums.. and there isn't much evidence as to who ended up with them...

Ed


----------



## jubjub47

frogfarm said:


> Probably because the people who bought them are more active on this board.


Not knowing who bought them I would say that is a hard assumption to make. It's also not too fair to discuss the two cited sellers on a board where they cannot participate to defend themselves.


----------



## sbreland

good god... hasn't anyone else gotten tired of these arguements yet? I mean c'mon... I am all for a good debate (as evidenced by anyone who's known me or read my posts over the years) but seriously, this is just getting ridiculous. What are we even arguing here? What is anyone trying to prove anymore?? These threads aren't going to stop smuggling (or probably even influence it whatsoever) so why are we all killing each other and losing each other's respect with these same 3 or 4 threads?? I guess I just don't see the point... don't tell me that any of you actively involved in this are stupid enough to think that these threads will ACTUALLY change anything?? Honestly. Perhaps I sound like a killjoy but I think it's more that I'm just not seeing the point anymore... everything has been said... some agree, some disagree and that's pretty much the end of it. I don't see why this is still going...


----------



## Ed

sbreland said:


> good god... hasn't anyone else gotten tired of these arguements yet? I mean c'mon... I am all for a good debate (as evidenced by anyone who's known me or read my posts over the years) but seriously, this is just getting ridiculous. What are we even arguing here? What is anyone trying to prove anymore?? These threads aren't going to stop smuggling (or probably even influence it whatsoever) so why are we all killing each other and losing each other's respect with these same 3 or 4 threads?? I guess I just don't see the point... don't tell me that any of you actively involved in this are stupid enough to think that these threads will ACTUALLY change anything?? Honestly. Perhaps I sounds like a kill all but I think it's more that I'm just not seeing the point anymore... everything has been said... some agree, some disagree and that's pretty much the end of it. I don't see why this is still going...


Make you miss hybridizing or mixing threads yet? 

Ed


----------



## markpulawski

I just wish the title of this thread was something I had written, after it was changed I asked that it be changed to ...Would You Buy a WC Colombian Auratus, it would have given it a slightly more thought provoking slant.


----------



## sbreland

Ed said:


> Make you miss hybridizing or mixing threads yet?
> 
> Ed


Not so much, but I feel what you're saying. Ed, I appreciate the hell out of what you're trying to do here but I think it's pretty fair to say nobody is listening to you or anyone else in these threads. You have thrown out so many stats and so much evidence yet people just ignore it and keep running their mouth about their position. Nearly everyone in these threads has degraded the conversation to them screaming their personal opinions on whatever the subject is and expecting everyone else to bandwagon on with them and when everyone DOESN'T just adopt their point of view they get pissed. It's not just one person... it's damn near everyone. Ed, you've done a good job being mostly objective but 90+% of the other participants are set on their stance and aren't going to change their view in the face of ANY evidence... no matter what. That's why these threads are becoming redundant and useless... they aren't really spreading any new info anymore, they are just serving as new platforms for people to address their positions from different angles. Nothing is changing. Nothing is going to. You can't change people's minds yet most people on these threads are trying to and getting pissed when others don't... just don't see the point anymore but to alienate and piss off each other.


----------



## Ed

markpulawski said:


> I just wish the title of this thread was something I had written, after it was changed I asked that it be changed to ...Would You Buy a WC Colombian Auratus, it would have given it a slightly more thought provoking slant.


Hi Mark,

It might have calmed a few of the people down as it would be on a lower profile species.. but the underlying problems would still be the same. And as sbreland noted, the same people would have the same positions. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

sbreland said:


> Not so much, but I feel what you're saying. Ed, I appreciate the hell out of what you're trying to do here but I think it's pretty fair to say nobody is listening to you or anyone else in these threads. You have thrown out so many stats and so much evidence yet people just ignore it and keep running their mouth about their position. Nearly everyone in these threads has degraded the conversation to them screaming their personal opinions on whatever the subject is and expecting everyone else to bandwagon on with them and when everyone DOESN'T just adopt their point of view they get pissed. It's not just one person... it's damn near everyone. Ed, you've done a good job being mostly objective but 90+% of the other participants are set on their stance and aren't going to change their view in the face of ANY evidence... no matter what. That's why these threads are becoming redundant and useless... they aren't really spreading any new info anymore, they are just serving as new platforms for people to address their positions from different angles. Nothing is changing. Nothing is going to. You can't change people's minds yet most people on these threads are trying to and getting pissed when others don't... just don't see the point anymore but to alienate and piss off each other.


Thanks,

But sometimes one has to put the information out there not so much for the current readers but for those who may decide to put on waders (and maybe a respirator) and read through the threads. There is so much hearsay and incorrect information floating around out there on this and many other topics (here and elsewhere) that discussing references, statistics etc is the only way to combat it. 

With some of the discussions (like frogs in the hobby being suitable for release), I sometimes feel like the person who is saying, no there is no Santa Claus... 

Ed


----------



## sbreland

Definitely agree with you on that one... there are WAY too many people here that have their rose colored glasses affixed a wee bit too tightly...


----------



## fred

sbreland;

If you're tired of these threads: nowbody force you to read them..instead of calling people stupid, you can also just skip this thread and read something you are interested in.
Though it looks like you did find a tight friendschip here..

Ed;

You feel like the person who is saying, no there is no Santa Claus....Isn't that a little bit self-glorification?

You constantly throw around with all kind of quotes, but who says that these are the total wisdom?
Because you show a link to some kind of research, doesn't mean that is the end of it..
People can disagree with it and have another opinion, and even maybe can be right sometimes..

The truth is plain to see and very simple; frogs get smuggled for one reason: because people buy them.


----------



## ChrisK

fred said:


> Ed;
> 
> You feel like the person who is saying, no there is no Santa Claus....Isn't that a little bit self-glorification?
> 
> You constantly throw around with all kind of quotes, but who says that these are the total wisdom?
> Because you show a link to some kind of research, doesn't mean that is the end of it..
> People can disagree with it and have another opinion, and even maybe can be right sometimes..


fred,

Just FYI, Ed doesn't usually like to disclose his experience or profession on here because he WANTS people to feel like they can disagree with him. He shows the links to research papers etc as documented proof, if you can show the same as arguments to them then that's great, but don't discredit someone for going out of their way to educate people.


----------



## ChrisK

fred said:


> The truth is plain to see and very simple; frogs get smuggled for one reason: because people buy them.


ANYTHING is smuggled because people buy it, if something is desirable and for sale at a fair price it will sell. Using your logic, every marijuana smoker and cocaine user should be held responsible for the things drug cartels and their associates do - and you know full well that is the wrong way to go after the issue.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> ..
> 
> Ed;
> 
> You feel like the person who is saying, no there is no Santa Claus....Isn't that a little bit self-glorification?
> 
> You constantly throw around with all kind of quotes, but who says that these are the total wisdom?
> Because you show a link to some kind of research, doesn't mean that is the end of it..
> People can disagree with it and have another opinion, and even maybe can be right sometimes..
> 
> The truth is plain to see and very simple; frogs get smuggled for one reason: because people buy them.



Fred, 

If I thought you really were aware of the actual discussion to which I referenced I would have been offended. 

People can disagree with anything. There are people who believe that the world is flat... or that snakes bite thier tails and roll like hoops to chase people ad nauseum and deny any evidence to the contrary by retreating into belief statements. Your argument is predicated almost entirely on arguments from belief (I will happily cede that there is some smuggling) and lacks any real supporting evidence other than at best anecdotal evidence. 
The one referenced link you provided really did not provide anything other than what has been commonly known for decades.. and it provides a stong indication that the goverment of Colombia and Germany not only know about it but choose to do nothing about it... 

Your propeganda effort has been shown to have little value (via studies on similar efforts) unless it is coordinated with other actions such as but not limited to offering alternate earning situations for the locals who are actually collecting the frogs..(a lot of which has already been pointed out and discussed)

I strongly suggest you look at these references (and a number of the others I provided) for starters and learn what is really required beyond a "feel good pat yourself on the back stand on the soapbox program". 

PLoS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect

PLoS Biology: A Human Taste for Rarity Spells Disaster for Endangered Species

http://www.ese.u-psud.fr/epc/conservation/PDFs/AAEModel.pdf

I strongly suggest purchasing access to this one CJO - Abstract - The dynamics of avicultural markets as the frog market economics acutally are extremely similar. 

You are on here pointing fingers and trumpeting about a single aspect of a problem and routinely ignoring the other aspects of what needs to be done to even begin to put a brake on the situation.. 

I'm going to break some news to you.. the Zoos tried exactly what you are trying to do and discovered the hard way that it doesn't work. Until the conditions change in Colombia, nothing will change (see the references above). If you are going to work on something like this then I would expect you to have enough interest to educate yourself on all of the aspects instead of ignoring the vast majority of the issues that need work. 

I am going to ask again, why haven't you bothered to try this discussion on the other frog sites? 
How about a suggestiong to take your soap box and self appointed messiah halo somewhere else until you can show that you actually know what you are talking about. 

Ed


----------



## Web Wheeler

Ed said:


> Fred,
> 
> If I thought you really were aware of the actual discussion to which I referenced I would have been offended.
> 
> People can disagree with anything. There are people who believe that the world is flat... or that snakes bite thier tails and roll like hoops to chase people ad nauseum and deny any evidence to the contrary by retreating into belief statements. Your argument is predicated almost entirely on arguments from belief (I will happily cede that there is some smuggling) and lacks any real supporting evidence other than at best anecdotal evidence.
> The one referenced link you provided really did not provide anything other than what has been commonly known for decades.. and it provides a stong indication that the goverment of Colombia and Germany not only know about it but choose to do nothing about it...
> 
> Your propeganda effort has been shown to have little value (via studies on similar efforts) unless it is coordinated with other actions such as but not limited to offering alternate earning situations for the locals who are actually collecting the frogs..(a lot of which has already been pointed out and discussed)
> 
> I strongly suggest you look at these references (and a number of the others I provided) for starters and learn what is really required beyond a "feel good pat yourself on the back stand on the soapbox program".
> 
> PLoS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect
> 
> PLoS Biology: A Human Taste for Rarity Spells Disaster for Endangered Species
> 
> http://www.ese.u-psud.fr/epc/conservation/PDFs/AAEModel.pdf
> 
> I strongly suggest purchasing access to this one CJO - Abstract - The dynamics of avicultural markets as the frog market economics acutally are extremely similar.
> 
> You are on here pointing fingers and trumpeting about a single aspect of a problem and routinely ignoring the other aspects of what needs to be done to even begin to put a brake on the situation..
> 
> I'm going to break some news to you.. the Zoos tried exactly what you are trying to do and discovered the hard way that it doesn't work. Until the conditions change in Colombia, nothing will change (see the references above). If you are going to work on something like this then I would expect you to have enough interest to educate yourself on all of the aspects instead of ignoring the vast majority of the issues that need work.
> 
> I am going to ask again, why haven't you bothered to try this discussion on the other frog sites?
> How about a suggestiong to take your soap box and self appointed messiah halo somewhere else until you can show that you actually know what you are talking about.
> 
> Ed


Ed, it would appear to me that Fred is doing exactly what all three of your papers recommend doing! That would be to raise awareness about the current condition of the frogs he's concerned with and to implore the members here to refrain from buying possibly smuggled frogs. Let me refer you to a few quotes from your above citations:



> Because among the activities presented here, several are primarily stimulated by people interested in nature, it is important that these people are aware of and have an understanding of the potential effect their actions may have on the very species they appreciate. Consequently, informing potential ecotourists, collectors, and pet owners may in part facilitate the process of reducing the likelihood of an AAE and thus the impact on the species that are the targets of these activities.
> 
> Source: PLoS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect


and



> How to conserve biodiversity when simply declaring a species endangered catalyzes its exploitation? Since many collectors, pet owners, and ecotourists actually care about biodiversity, the authors hope that education may go a long way toward curbing these human activities. Education could even mitigate the damage of trophy hunting and luxury consumption if society stigmatized activities responsible for driving a species to extinction and people could no longer take pride in displaying such “treasures.”
> 
> Source: PLoS Biology: A Human Taste for Rarity Spells Disaster for Endangered Species


and



> Given the high costs of protecting species, conservation strategies aiming to reduce consumer demand may be a more effective solution. It is tempting to suggest
> that withholding information on species abundance from the public domain would avoid an increase in demand triggered by a rarity effect. Aside from the moral and technical difficulties of achieving this, a valuable opportunity for raising conservation funds driven by increased public awareness of a species’ plight could be lost. Nonetheless, increased regulation of the type of information available in the public domain is advisable. In Britain, information posted on the Internet by birdwatchers eager to share unusual bird sightings has been used by egg-collectors to locate and rob nests of protected species (Thomas et al. 2001). Awareness campaigns by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and local ornithological societies have proved effective at promoting greater self-regulation in the birding community when sharing information on sensitive species.
> 
> Source: http://www.ese.u-psud.fr/epc/conservation/PDFs/AAEModel.pdf


Ed, would you please explain how you can be critical of Fred for doing exactly what your own citations are suggesting he do?


----------



## ChrisK

Web Wheeler said:


> Ed, would you please explain how you can be critical of Fred for doing exactly what your own citations are suggesting he do?


Well just from an observer's perspective, it looks more like he's questioning why fred is focusing so heavily on the most ineffective and most unrealistic *angle *of the issue, along with being very accusatory, while not focusing on the angles that could have MUCH more of an immediate, and probably realistic, effect ("nipping it in the bud", as well as the fact that fred is only directing people on *this *particular forum of what *he *thinks they should do), especially since fred happens to be in that particular country - along with stating what the solutions to the issues would be without any backup CONCLUSIVE evidence of his claims, while Ed provides historical evidence of his claims. In the examples you cited, I saw "may" and "could", which doesn't seem to be conclusive at all. Of course I could be 100% wrong.

If fred really wants to make a difference on the issues he's trumpeting, maybe he should actually take action since he's actually *there *instead of pointing his fingers at people he has no evidence against (and even if he did, would make NO difference since no evidence in these particular cases would be conclusive - i.e. how would you be able to prove one person's auratus is smuggled vs. legal without pictures of that particular frog in situ, etc?). What he's doing right now will not help anything at all - as other people have told me privately, it only really creates more of an underground market for "rare" frogs.


----------



## sbreland

fred said:


> sbreland;
> 
> If you're tired of these threads: nowbody force you to read them..instead of calling people stupid, you can also just skip this thread and read something you are interested in.
> Though it looks like you did find a tight friendschip here..


Hmm... is it worth it.... nah. You're no longer worth my time fred. You're not worth anyone's time here... that's what everyone is trying to tell you. You have a good cause but a terrible approach and only seem to have one supporter (Web Wheeler) who seems to participate in all your threads and joined the site at about the same time you did... hmmmm. Anyways, I think Ed is right... your fight is with Germany, not with us... Sprechen Sie Deutsch? Perhaps you should try it...
as for my "tight" friendship... I've got a lot of friends here. If you had any history on this board you would know that Ed and I have had knock down drag out arguements before on various subjects... years ago. Despite that I still respect him for what he does for this board and for this community while I can honestly say I have pretty much lost what little respect I did have for you simply because you are content to point fingers and cry about the situation rather than actually do ANYTHING about it and considering you are in a better position to do something about it than probably anyone on this board, thats pretty sad.


----------



## Ed

Web Wheeler said:


> Ed, would you please explain how you can be critical of Fred for doing exactly what your own citations are suggesting he do?


It would help if you paid attention to the underlying premise of those papers.. as long as the economics of collecting are sufficient then smuggling and trade will not stop. To reduce/resolve the problem the economics have to change. One of the most important is to either enable the hunters to make more money in some combination that results in either not collecting the frogs (or if it can be shown to be sustainable, harvesting in a sustainable manner). 

And as for a quote from the papers I cited see quote The model predicts that as long as there is a positive correlation between a species’ rarity and its value, and the market price exceeds the cost of harvesting the species, harvesting will cause further declines, making the species ever rarer and more expensive, which in turn stimulates even more harvesting until there’s nothing left to harvest. And as long as someone will pay any price for the rarest of the rare, market price will cover (and exceed) the cost of harvesting the last giant parrot, tegu lizard, or lady’s slipper orchid on Earth. endquote. 


The arguments Fred has presented here ad nauseum have done nothing to change the end market price. If there isn't a market in the US, then there is one in Germany, if not Germany then Japan and China.. or Saudi Arabia or the Czechoslovakia or Russia, as countries stabilize with excess money to spend, demand will then occur in those countries and a new market simply opens up. 

I've repeated this information several times in this thread.. a combination of the following has to occur in-country before a change can be seen out-country

1) local economics have to change by providing the locals with alternative forms of earnings
2) locals have to be educated as to the value of the animals in either not harvesting them or harvesting them sustainably (provided data can show how to harvest them sustainably)
3) the goverment has to have an interest in sustaining the species via both in-country and out of country efforts
4) habitat has to be protected


If even one of the above is left out of the equation, then the whole process does not work. Institutions like Zoos found that out the hard way... Remember campaigns like "extinction is forever"?

As a final comment, if Fred was really interested in educating the North American population shouldn't he be spending his time on other forums as well?


----------



## fred

Well, first it is not my intention to offend anyone here, and i'll respect everybody, but some here are rusted solid in their way of thinkin' and think that long time experience will give total wisdom..non of us are guru's, with more then 30 years of experience I can still learn new things or get ideas from a beginning enthousiast who see things with an open mind.
Also i'm allways willing to learn things, that's very important in live, we are never finished learning and seeing things from another angle.

Like I mentioned before many years ago I didn't think or care to much about where my frogs where coming from, I just wanted to get that special species. 
In the years, the system changed in Holland, and people were more aware about where their frogs were coming from and it was more and more difficult to keep these rare frogs (or other animals) and we had to keep up a registration system. 

These kind of actions make you think more about it; why is it illegal? why are they making things so difficult? why are they protected? what is the problem with the frogs in the wild?

In my opinion everybody who loves nature (which hobbyist doesn't?) don't want to damage it.
But with taking all these frogs out of their habitats, we do make a lot of damage, that's not logical..
I for shure never wanted to do any damage to nature, but in the past my desire for these rare species was probably to strong to think (or want to think) about it.
When my nose got pressed on the facts, I learned it was wrong.
So in my experience (nothing scientific) people can learn not to buy these frogs.
In my experience it is also effective to make it more difficult to keep protected illegal frogs by law. (it makes people think about it)
For sure, when it is easy to keep illegal frogs, people will think that it is not to much of a problem (like I did) and there is probably no need to be worried about it.

So the ones that need to be educated are we; the hobbyists who create a market for smuggling and in that way we are respondsible for wiping out species.
Do we want really want that? is it worth it to have that special species in our collection?

Ed,

Yesterday I made a short bush trip with a friend biologist here; we walked all through the forest up to the highest point of that mountain, and could see over a big part of cloud forest, if you could experience that, you'll know it is impossible to seal off an area like that for smugglers.

'Local economics have to change? providing the locals with alternative earnings?' yes, indeed, but be real; obviously you have no idea of the situation in South America; it will take generations to change the way it is now, there will be nothing left if we have to change things from that point of vieuw.. 

Educate locals about the frogs will make them in many cases more aware of the value of the frogs; that's an opportunity to make money and many of them will take opportunity when they have the chance.
When smugglers come they will sell them frogs if it will give some money to buy food.

Sustainable harvest is a questionable strategy in the first place, it is still a big (dangerous) experiment.
And beside that, it still wil not reduce the smuggling as long we hobbyists are not getting aware of our respondsibility in this matter, and just keep on buying them.

We hobbyists are the ones that need education.


----------



## Roadrunner

Your worth my time Fred.


sbreland said:


> Hmm... is it worth it.... nah. You're no longer worth my time fred. You're not worth anyone's time here... that's what everyone is trying to tell you. You have a good cause but a terrible approach and only seem to have one supporter (Web Wheeler) who seems to participate in all your threads and joined the site at about the same time you did... hmmmm. Anyways, I think Ed is right... your fight is with Germany, not with us... Sprechen Sie Deutsch? Perhaps you should try it...
> as for my "tight" friendship... I've got a lot of friends here. If you had any history on this board you would know that Ed and I have had knock down drag out arguements before on various subjects... years ago. Despite that I still respect him for what he does for this board and for this community while I can honestly say I have pretty much lost what little respect I did have for you simply because you are content to point fingers and cry about the situation rather than actually do ANYTHING about it and considering you are in a better position to do something about it than probably anyone on this board, thats pretty sad.


----------



## Roadrunner

Well, one of them is posting here.


Ed said:


> There are also other forums.. and there isn't much evidence as to who ended up with them...
> 
> Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

Sounds like your trying to get people to stop reading because your worried they will. And they already have changed things for a few.
Stace you don`t have to read them, look away man if it bothers you or shakes your conscience.
I have no problem letting Fred vent and maybe change a few people here or give info other newbies maybe didn`t know about. 
I don`t believe that education won`t change things. I think that if the newbies coming in adopt this attitude that it can change things and since you can do all the studies you want and can`t predict the future, I say let it ride on.



sbreland said:


> good god... hasn't anyone else gotten tired of these arguements yet? I mean c'mon... I am all for a good debate (as evidenced by anyone who's known me or read my posts over the years) but seriously, this is just getting ridiculous. What are we even arguing here? What is anyone trying to prove anymore?? These threads aren't going to stop smuggling (or probably even influence it whatsoever) so why are we all killing each other and losing each other's respect with these same 3 or 4 threads?? I guess I just don't see the point... don't tell me that any of you actively involved in this are stupid enough to think that these threads will ACTUALLY change anything?? Honestly. Perhaps I sound like a killjoy but I think it's more that I'm just not seeing the point anymore... everything has been said... some agree, some disagree and that's pretty much the end of it. I don't see why this is still going...


----------



## Web Wheeler

fred said:


> Yesterday I made a short bush trip with a friend biologist here; we walked all through the forest up to the highest point of that mountain, and could see over a big part of cloud forest, if you could experience that, you'll know it is impossible to seal off an area like that for smugglers.


Fred,

Would it be possible for you to take a few photos on your next trip up the mountain and post them here? I'm sure the members of this forum would love to see photos of the actual habitat their frogs originate from. I know I would, and I don't even keep any of the frogs being discussed on this thread!


----------



## Roadrunner

Holy cow, you are doing exactly what you stated that was worthless about this thread. Every study has a chance of changing each time it is performed. Ed even referenced 2 papers stating cherry shrimp carried chytrid and then it didn`t. I`ve read enough research papers that didnt include all the variables or where strait out wrong. If people have all of a sudden acquired a conscience there is a chance for changing the outcome everyday. I don`t think we should give up as education can do a lot. I know i didn`t have the education when I got into the hobby so I brought in a shipment from Germany. I, also, was going to get some koi histos but decided I didn`t want them when I read that even that hard to get to population is even being extirpated by overcollecting. 



sbreland said:


> Hmm... is it worth it.... nah. You're no longer worth my time fred. You're not worth anyone's time here... that's what everyone is trying to tell you. You have a good cause but a terrible approach and only seem to have one supporter (Web Wheeler) who seems to participate in all your threads and joined the site at about the same time you did... hmmmm. Anyways, I think Ed is right... your fight is with Germany, not with us... Sprechen Sie Deutsch? Perhaps you should try it...
> as for my "tight" friendship... I've got a lot of friends here. If you had any history on this board you would know that Ed and I have had knock down drag out arguements before on various subjects... years ago. Despite that I still respect him for what he does for this board and for this community while I can honestly say I have pretty much lost what little respect I did have for you simply because you are content to point fingers and cry about the situation rather than actually do ANYTHING about it and considering you are in a better position to do something about it than probably anyone on this board, thats pretty sad.


----------



## Web Wheeler

Ed said:


> I've repeated this information several times in this thread.. a combination of the following has to occur in-country before a change can be seen out-country
> 
> 1) local economics have to change by providing the locals with alternative forms of earnings
> 2) locals have to be educated as to the value of the animals in either not harvesting them or harvesting them sustainably (provided data can show how to harvest them sustainably)
> 3) the goverment has to have an interest in sustaining the species via both in-country and out of country efforts
> 4) habitat has to be protected


I agree with all four of the above points. Perhaps we can start doing something about the problems Fred has alerted us to.

Starting with point "1) local economics have to change by providing the locals with alternative forms of earnings", would taking up a collection from the members here, to be used as a reward for information leading to the arrest and prosecution of anyone caught smuggling frogs, be useful? Or, perhaps donations could be used to further point "2) locals have to be educated as to the value of the animals in either not harvesting them or harvesting them sustainably (provided data can show how to harvest them sustainably)"?

These are just a couple of ideas. What do you think, Fred?


----------



## fred

I'll try to put some pictures here from the walk yesterday..tried to put pictures before, but it didn't work, maybe more luck now..


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> non of us are guru's, with more then 30 years of experience


While I don't fall into this category (I only over 23 years now that I think about it) but there were posts from a person who does have over 30 years... (Chuck Powell).




fred said:


> Also i'm allways willing to learn things, that's very important in live, we are never finished learning and seeing things from another angle.


While this sounds good, you have refused to accept references and citations... See my comments above. 



fred said:


> But with taking all these frogs out of their habitats, we do make a lot of damage, that's not logical..


Not all removals have to harm the enviroment or the frogs. 



fred said:


> When my nose got pressed on the facts, I learned it was wrong.


I certainly have not seen this side of you in this thread/discussion. Your comments below do not support this stance.. 



fred said:


> In my experience it is also effective to make it more difficult to keep protected illegal frogs by law. (it makes people think about it)


Actually the fact that it changes the market economics are more important than the "education" factor. Please read through the citations. 



fred said:


> For sure, when it is easy to keep illegal frogs, people will think that it is not to much of a problem (like I did) and there is probably no need to be worried about it.


Your statement ignores the fact that in situations like that the economics support the collection as cited in the above papers. 



fred said:


> So the ones that need to be educated are we; the hobbyists who create a market for smuggling and in that way we are respondsible for wiping out species.
> Do we want really want that? is it worth it to have that special species in our collection?


Contrary to this statement, we are not the only people creating the market. The locals and thier goverment are also creating this market by supplying the frogs at a cost that allows the market to flourish. 




fred said:


> Yesterday I made a short bush trip with a friend biologist here; we walked all through the forest up to the highest point of that mountain, and could see over a big part of cloud forest, if you could experience that, you'll know it is impossible to seal off an area like that for smugglers.


Sealing off the area isn't the only way to control the overharvesting. I am not going to repeat myself again as I've pointed out the holes in these anecdotal comments based not only on your anecdotal comments but other sources you provided several times now. 




fred said:


> 'Local economics have to change? providing the locals with alternative earnings?' yes, indeed, but be real; obviously you have no idea of the situation in South America; it will take generations to change the way it is now, there will be nothing left if we have to change things from that point of vieuw..


It took less than one generation with programs in Liberia, Rodrigues and Brazil as well as other countries... 



fred said:


> Educate locals about the frogs will make them in many cases more aware of the value of the frogs; that's an opportunity to make money and many of them will take opportunity when they have the chance.
> When smugglers come they will sell them frogs if it will give some money to buy food.


Again it took much less than a generation with other programs in other countries... if you think the locals don't know that there is a value on the frogs then you are ignoring the situation as otherwise there would not be the scale you claim of harvest is occuring for smuggling. 



fred said:


> Sustainable harvest is a questionable strategy in the first place, it is still a big (dangerous) experiment.
> And beside that, it still wil not reduce the smuggling as long we hobbyists are not getting aware of our respondsibility in this matter, and just keep on buying them.
> 
> We hobbyists are the ones that need education.


I see you have continued to ignore the facts of what is needed to change the issue and again have retreated to belief statements (It can't work because I don't think so.. ). If the economics don't change then the situation will continue unabated. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Holy cow, you are doing exactly what you stated that was worthless about this thread. Every study has a chance of changing each time it is performed. Ed even referenced 2 papers stating cherry shrimp carried chytrid and then it didn`t. I`ve read enough research papers that didnt include all the variables or where strait out wrong. If people have all of a sudden acquired a conscience there is a chance for changing the outcome everyday. I don`t think we should give up as education can do a lot. I know i didn`t have the education when I got into the hobby so I brought in a shipment from Germany. I, also, was going to get some koi histos but decided I didn`t want them when I read that even that hard to get to population is even being extirpated by overcollecting.


Hi Aaron,

I cited one paper that indicated that chytrid could be carried by freshwater shrimp, no where in the paper did it say that cherry shrimp carried chytrid.. 

Okay Aaron, 

Name two programs in which education towards abstinance actually changed the maket demand for a smuggled item... 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

Illegal entry: endangered animal smuggling is big business at U.S. ports | E: The Environmental Magazine | Find Articles at BNET
The Pacific Northwest Natural History Museum, across the street from the forensics lab in Ashland, houses a permanent display of confiscated goods. "If we didn't buy the stuff, they wouldn't poach it," says Ron Lamb, the museum's former director. "We simply can't continue to use products from endangered animals or we will be as guilty of depleting those populations as the poachers themselves."

Smuggling's Wild Side in Brazil
"Of course there are more smugglers out there than we can catch, and that is frustrating," said Lucimar Paixao, manager of the fauna division at IBAMA's Belem
office. "But we're doing the best we can with what we have."

Animal smuggling - Do you know where that pet came from? : Worms and Germs Blog

Despite being a huge industry, there are things that everyone can and should do to reduce animal smuggling:

* Don't buy animals that you know were or may have been illegally imported. Doing so contributes to the death of countless other animals for every animal that survives.
* Don't buy wild-caught animals like birds and reptiles. Wild caught doesn't mean smuggled, but it may be hard to tell the two apart. Some of the disease risks, particularly to individual buyers, are the same with legally and illegally imported wild-caught animals. These days there are good, reputable and ethical breeders of many animal species around that can supply animals. If the species is so rare that there aren't any good breeders around, then don't buy it. It might be rare because the animals don't survive well in captivity, or are hard to find in the wild. You don't want to contribute to either of those situations. In some instances, you can find both wild-caught and captive-bred animals for sale. While the captive-bred version will almost certainly be more expensive, the extra cost is not so great when you consider the overall lifetime costs of the animal. And how much money do you really save if you end up with a sick or dead animal?
* If a deal sounds too good to be true, it probably is. That animal that you're getting for such a "great deal" might have been smuggled or be otherwise unhealthy.
* If, for some reason, you are determined to get a wild-caught animal, make sure that it comes from a reputable source who imported the animal legally. Ask how it was caught, stored and transported. A good supplier should be able to tell you everything that happened from the time of capture to its arrival, or at least be able to find that out. If they don't know or don't care, walk away.

Illegal Wildlife Trade In China Undiminished By Bans And Health Threats

But that has not deterred connoisseurs of civet stew. -- Not even deadly disease deters consumption of wildlife -- "There are still people who eat them. You can get that in restaurants," said one seller who would not give his name.

Education seems to be the only way to combat these problems if the other laws and such aren`t combating them well. You can`t deny the fact that if people want them they will get them. If people don`t pay for them they won`t be bought in. I`m all for combating the problem at the root, which is the demand for the animals. I don`t see any problems at all w/ trying to hit the problem at both ends as it seems to me that is the only way it`ll work, w/ our help and not w/out it.


----------



## Roadrunner

See you`ll continue to slide the focus, if it was freshwater or chrerry doesn`t matter, only that the original paper was wrong


Ed said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> I cited one paper that indicated that chytrid could be carried by freshwater shrimp, no where in the paper did it say that cherry shrimp carried chytrid..
> 
> Okay Aaron,
> 
> Name two programs in which education towards abstinance actually changed the maket demand for a smuggled item...
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Every study has a chance of changing each time it is performed. .


So if you measured the rate of items falling enough times you would be able to overturn the laws of gravity? 

If you studied the laws of thermodynamics enough you could overturn them as well?

How about the laws of solubility in water? 

Not every study has a chance of changing as it depends on the amount of evidence not only in the study/publication but the preponderance of evidence that supports that information. 
The economics etc that were cited have a large weight behind them and are not going to change simply because someone studies it one more time.


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> See you`ll continue to slide the focus, if it was freshwater or chrerry doesn`t matter, only that the original paper was wrong


Aaron,

I didn't slide the focus. You did, by incorrectly referencing the papers and the information contained with in those papers. I was not the one who brought those papers to this party.. that was you. I have stayed on point on the problems through the whole discussion.


----------



## Ed

Aaron so which of your references indicates that a education towards abstinance reduces demand? The ones I scanned over do not indicate any such thing. 

Economics have been shown to be the only thing that works.. 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

How about the "laws" about peoples attitudes and decision making ability. 



Ed said:


> So if you measured the rate of items falling enough times you would be able to overturn the laws of gravity?
> 
> If you studied the laws of thermodynamics enough you could overturn them as well?
> 
> How about the laws of solubility in water?
> 
> Not every study has a chance of changing as it depends on the amount of evidence not only in the study/publication but the preponderance of evidence that supports that information.
> The economics etc that were cited have a large weight behind them and are not going to change simply because someone studies it one more time.


----------



## Roadrunner

Gee, everything I read says they have nothing but estimates on the # of illegal wildlife brought in, where did you get hard #`s of actual smuggling and not just people getting caught.



Ed said:


> Aaron so which of your references indicates that a education towards abstinance reduces demand? The ones I scanned over do not indicate any such thing.
> 
> Economics have been shown to be the only thing that works..
> 
> Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

uh, none of them. I was preparing that while you wrote your statement. My goal is to show that there are a lot of people calling for consumers to reduce the demand as even the practices in Brazil aren`t working and china will even smuggle w/ the risk of disease and death. I`m saying your economic model won`t work either, the root is the demand and education has to be added in and may be the ONLY thing that will eventually change this situation.


Ed said:


> Aaron so which of your references indicates that a education towards abstinance reduces demand? The ones I scanned over do not indicate any such thing.
> 
> Economics have been shown to be the only thing that works..
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> How about the "laws" about peoples attitudes and decision making ability.


I can gather from this response you did not bother to read the references ... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Gee, everything I read says they have nothing but estimates on the # of illegal wildlife brought in, where did you get hard #`s of actual smuggling and not just people getting caught.


Aaron,

This is dodging the question. Either you can support your point, or you cannot, attempting to dodge the question does not support your point. 
There are a lot of conservation programs aimed at reducing smuggling a variety of items and to date education only programs have not shown any reductions. At best you simply shift the market to another location or to another item. Look at drugs.. and all of those links you provided. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> uh, none of them. I was preparing that while you wrote your statement. My goal is to show that there are a lot of people calling for consumers to reduce the demand as even the practices in Brazil aren`t working and china will even smuggle w/ the risk of disease and death. I`m saying your economic model won`t work either, the root is the demand and education has to be added in and may be the ONLY thing that will eventually change this situation.


I suggest you read the references and the above posts as you have totally missed my argument if this is what you have taken away from it. 

Ed


----------



## fred

Ed;

You're pulling my post out of context, so I'm not going to argue with you anymore.

It looks like you want to get you're right, no matter what the subject is about, that's the only thing that counts; Your horse is much to high to step down from it and admit you can be wrong about things.

Here's a picture from the redhead habitat, I didn't visit there for a while and hope they are stil to be found there..
That's what it is all about, not about you or me being right or wrong..


----------



## Roadrunner

It proves my point that you can`t tell if they just got better at smuggling them in and not getting caught. I don`t remember where I said ONLY to do education programs but I figured why not start them out here because we can and we can`t get the columbian or german govt`s to do anything really. We can only do what we can do. We have the ability here to educate people but we really can`t go to colombia or germany and do anything now can we. I say do what you can where you can.
I`ll donate to a fund to convict smugglers.



Ed said:


> Aaron,
> 
> This is dodging the question. Either you can support your point, or you cannot, attempting to dodge the question does not support your point.
> There are a lot of conservation programs aimed at reducing smuggling a variety of items and to date education only programs have not shown any reductions. At best you simply shift the market to another location or to another item. Look at drugs.. and all of those links you provided.
> 
> Ed


----------



## Web Wheeler

Ed said:


> frogfarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> uh, none of them. I was preparing that while you wrote your statement. My goal is to show that there are a lot of people calling for consumers to reduce the demand as even the practices in Brazil aren`t working and china will even smuggle w/ the risk of disease and death. I`m saying your economic model won`t work either, the root is the demand and *education has to be added in and may be the ONLY thing that will eventually change this situation*.
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you read the references and the above posts as you have totally missed my argument if this is what you have taken away from it.
> 
> Ed
Click to expand...

Ed, I have to wonder if you got lost in all the details of your papers and missed their conclusion / recommendation? For example, as I quoted earlier, here is the conclusion of the first paper:



> Because among the activities presented here, several are primarily stimulated by people interested in nature, it is important that these people are aware of and have an understanding of the potential effect their actions may have on the very species they appreciate. *Consequently, informing potential ecotourists, collectors, and pet owners may in part facilitate the process of reducing the likelihood of an AAE and thus the impact on the species that are the targets of these activities.*
> 
> Source: PLoS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect


The other two papers you cited also seem to agree with this conclusion, which I have previously posted.

Emphasis in *bold* is mine W.W.


----------



## sbreland

frogfarm said:


> Holy cow, you are doing exactly what you stated that was worthless about this thread. Every study has a chance of changing each time it is performed. Ed even referenced 2 papers stating cherry shrimp carried chytrid and then it didn`t. I`ve read enough research papers that didnt include all the variables or where strait out wrong. If people have all of a sudden acquired a conscience there is a chance for changing the outcome everyday. I don`t think we should give up as education can do a lot. I know i didn`t have the education when I got into the hobby so I brought in a shipment from Germany. I, also, was going to get some koi histos but decided I didn`t want them when I read that even that hard to get to population is even being extirpated by overcollecting.


Aaron. C'mon, seriously, you want to go there? This conversation HAS become pointless... if you can't see that and you seriously think this is "education" for the cause you're pushing then perhaps it's time to come off the farm and see civilization again. As for your koi histo statement... unless you made a "recent" moral decision to not get kois then you must be talking about the "MJ" situation that happened where you or anyone else involved DID NOT make a moral decision about those frogs... he made the decision for you (by screwing everyone). If you're a "born again" purist and anti smuggling flag waver then I am happy for you but I can tell you that my conscience is clear and I have no problems sleeping at night... can you say the same? Anyways, like I said... this has become so painfully redundant and 'un'educational that I can't see any more point to it other than to argue because you have nothing better to do. Nothing is coming of this... nothing has and nothing will.


----------



## Roadrunner

And you keep adding to it`s pointlessness? I provided recent references to papers about ways to fight smuggling, you ssee that as useless?
I sold them before they came in as I couldn`t get the money back and cancel, and then I refunded the money to who I sold them to and took the loss anyway. That was the exact time, I think it was Ron Skylsdale, posted about the koi`s being wiped out in their native range.
Um, I sleep pretty well, I don`t know what that has to do w/ anything. Would you care to elaborate on what that means?
So, why do you feel you need to take out of your time to close this thread down since you see it as pointless? obviously you have some stake or you wouldn`t be bothered. Why do you feel the need to be accusatory at me as if you wouldv`e asked about the koi situation, I would`ve told you. No need to be hateful about it.
Yes, years ago we couldn`t get very many morphs any other way then from Germany. Well things have changed and if we don`t start cleaning up the hobby now w/ these programs being worked on or in place, they will fail from smuggling. I`d rather see the programs work then the smuggling and i`ll fight it however I can.



sbreland said:


> Aaron. C'mon, seriously, you want to go there? This conversation HAS become pointless... if you can't see that and you seriously think this is "education" for the cause you're pushing then perhaps it's time to come off the farm and see civilization again. As for your koi histo statement... unless you made a "recent" moral decision to not get kois then you must be talking about the "MJ" situation that happened where you or anyone else involved DID NOT make a moral decision about those frogs... he made the decision for you (by screwing everyone). If you're a "born again" purist and anti smuggling flag waver then I am happy for you but I can tell you that my conscience is clear and I have no problems sleeping at night... can you say the same? Anyways, like I said... this has become so painfully redundant and 'un'educational that I can't see any more point to it other than to argue because you have nothing better to do. Nothing is coming of this... nothing has and nothing will.


----------



## fred

About the story's that the lehmanni is wiped out because the habitat-loss; here is a picture of the Anchicaya-valley..

Doesn't mean it shouldn't be protected though, but just to show there is still enough beautiful nature there where the frogs could live.
If the smugglers and greedy hobbyists would have left them in peace.


----------



## Roadrunner

http://www.philjol.info/index.php/PJSB/article/viewFile/1014/925

􀂃 Dissemination of information and publicity (~peer pressure) within
professional societies and the international scientific community


----------



## sbreland

frogfarm said:


> And you keep adding to it`s pointlessness? I provided recent references to papers about ways to fight smuggling, you ssee that as useless?
> I sold them before they came in as I couldn`t get the money back and cancel, and then I refunded the money to who I sold them to and took the loss anyway. That was the exact time, I think it was Ron Skylsdale, posted about the koi`s being wiped out in their native range.
> Um, I sleep pretty well, I don`t know what that has to do w/ anything. Would you care to elaborate on what that means?
> So, why do you feel you need to take out of your time to close this thread down since you see it as pointless? obviously you have some stake or you wouldn`t be bothered. Why do you feel the need to be accusatory at me as if you wouldv`e asked about the koi situation, I would`ve told you. No need to be hateful about it.
> Yes, years ago we couldn`t get very many morphs any other way then from Germany. Well things have changed and if we don`t start cleaning up the hobby now w/ these programs being worked on or in place, they will fail from smuggling. I`d rather see the programs work then the smuggling and i`ll fight it however I can.


Aaron, 
Yes, it is pointless and yes, I do see it as useless. When you can provide documentable PROOF that this thread or ANYTHING from it has made a difference then I'll listen... til then you will always be blowing in the wind. The only reason I continue to post on this is 2 reasons... 1) I see how sick and tired damn near everyone is of this situation and hope that my pointing out that everyone is tired of it will drive the point home but now I see no matter what there will always be those that are too damn hard headed to listen. 2) when someone quotes my posts and directs comments towards me I reply... going to have to get out of that because hard headed people will always try to call you out for a fight... it's just going to take a bigger man to say, once again, "It's not worth it". Aaron... it's not worth it and hopefully one day you'll understand why.


----------



## Roadrunner

a mod did say there was useful info some 20 pages back.
And the sleeping well at night?
Trying to stop people from smuggling will always be worth it to me Stace. Although everything referenced, mine and Ed`s, say that education has to accompany cracking down at the source. So I don`t think anyone other than you thinks that discussing this openly is useless. If people are sick of it they dont have to follow(although 8,152 views is some interest.)



sbreland said:


> Aaron,
> Yes, it is pointless and yes, I do see it as useless. When you can provide documentable PROOF that this thread or ANYTHING from it has made a difference then I'll listen... til then you will always be blowing in the wind. The only reason I continue to post on this is 2 reasons... 1) I see how sick and tired damn near everyone is of this situation and hope that my pointing out that everyone is tired of it will drive the point home but now I see no matter what there will always be those that are too damn hard headed to listen. 2) when someone quotes my posts and directs comments towards me I reply... going to have to get out of that because hard headed people will always try to call you out for a fight... it's just going to take a bigger man to say, once again, "It's not worth it". Aaron... it's not worth it and hopefully one day you'll understand why.


----------



## sbreland

OHHHH... a mod said it 20 pages ago?!? Well it MUST be true then...

Yeah, I can definitely see how threads like this are good... dividing the community and causing loss of respect for people is really a great thing.

OK Aaron, you win... you have officially bored me to the point that I really don't give a sh!t what you have to say anymore (and I'm probably not the only one). One thing it's taken me a long time to accept is that sometimes there IS NO POINT in debating with someone who simply wants to argue for the sake of arguing so say what you want, you always do, and enjoy wasting your time... you won't waste anymore of mine.


----------



## Roadrunner

No comment on the sleeping at nite thing?


----------



## fred

sbreland;

It is strange that you together with a few others see these threads as useless, pointless, etc. but still you keep on sabotage and spoil these threads for other people who are seriously want to do something about the situation.

Maybe you and these few others (luckely just a few) are for some reason affraid that there actually wil be something accomplished here..?
What else can be the reason for your sabotage all the time?

If your sick of it and not interested, then just leave these threads to people who do care.


----------



## ChrisK

Hey fred where were the histrionicus in those pictures you took, were they out in the open by the water or more in the planted area?


----------



## sbreland

fred said:


> sbreland;
> 
> It is strange that you together with a few others see these threads as useless, pointless, etc. but still you keep on sabotage and spoil these threads for other people who are seriously want to do something about the situation.
> 
> Maybe you and these few others (luckely just a few) are for some reason affraid that there actually wil be something accomplished here..?
> What else can be the reason for your sabotage all the time?
> 
> If your sick of it and not interested, then just leave these threads to people who do care.


fred,
Is this some kind of accusation you are trying to make here? Yeah, I'm sure it is. How about you quit beating around the bush and come right out and say what your trying to hint here, or do you not have the guts to say it and can only find the courage to make thinly veiled accusations like this? You don't know me... you don't know who I am, where I've been, what I've done, or what I have, so take yourself and your accusations and go for a walk in the bush... maybe we'll all get lucky and you'll disappear. The only thing I'm afraid of is that I'm afraid we'll all have to keep listening to your bullshit because I GUARANTEE you that your redundant threads and accusations will produce ZERO results. Now, I'm done with Aaron and now you...


----------



## Roadrunner

Good because that`s some pretty unnecessary and nasty stuff your saying. I take it back , I don`t want to know what the sleeping at nite comment was about. And there are kids who read this so you may want to clean it up. And Stace, your the one who keeps coming back and reading, you realize you don`t have to.



sbreland said:


> fred,
> Is this some kind of accusation you are trying to make here? Yeah, I'm sure it is. How about you quit beating around the bush and come right out and say what your trying to hint here, or do you not have the guts to say it and can only find the courage to make thinly veiled accusations like this? You don't know me... you don't know who I am, where I've been, what I've done, or what I have, so take yourself and your accusations and go for a walk in the bush... maybe we'll all get lucky and you'll disappear. The only thing I'm afraid of is that I'm afraid we'll all have to keep listening to your bullshit because I GUARANTEE you that your redundant threads and accusations will produce ZERO results. Now, I'm done with Aaron and now you...


----------



## Ed

Web Wheeler said:


> Ed, I have to wonder if you got lost in all the details of your papers and missed their conclusion / recommendation? For example, as I quoted earlier, here is the conclusion of the first paper:
> 
> 
> 
> The other two papers you cited also seem to agree with this conclusion, which I have previously posted.
> 
> Emphasis in *bold* is mine W.W.


I did not get lost in the papers. As part of a total program those items change the dynamics.. however by themselves they are insufficient to change the problem and can actually increase smuggling by communicating the rariety of the species which fuels demand. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> http://www.philjol.info/index.php/PJSB/article/viewFile/1014/925
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dissemination of information and publicity (~peer pressure) within
> professional societies and the international scientific community
> 
> 
> 
> While this is specifically targeting the scientific community (which has also been a beef in Latin American countries and a major driver of the Biodiversity treaty) the following has been a key underpinning of what is required to deal with the problem in total.
> 
> More vigilant monitoring by law enforcement agencies of collecting
> efforts particularly those involving foreign scientists and institutions,
> tourists and ‘pseudo-tourists’—agencies including local police, wildlife
> monitoring offices, customs and quarantine offices should be familiar
> with relevant provisions of various laws
> • Implement stringent sanctions for habitual offenders, and possibly offer
> amnesty to first-time offenders, while keeping the doors open for lawabiding
> and above-board entities
> • Less tedious collecting permit system for projects involving Filipino
> scientists and institutions or foreign-initiated projects involving Filipino
> collaborators in order to encourage the research efforts of home-grown
> scientists which oftentimes are undermined by unscrupulous, competing
> foreign entities who collect in the country anonymously; this will
> necessarily promote the scientific study of the country’s rich
> biodiversity primarily by Filipinos and their collaborators
> • Instill a real, unequivocal collaborative scheme between Filipino and
> foreign scientists by requiring joint authorships of research results as
> dictated by ethical, practical and IPR considerations
> • Implement editorial control measures to ensure publication of
> manuscripts using only specimens which are obtained through lawful
> channels
> • Improve the overall quality and services of local repositories
> accompanied by the upgrading of professional and curatorial skills
> among the staff
> • Repatriation of relevant Philippine materials, especially those obtained
> illegally, invoking Philippine and international biodiversity laws
> 74
> Philippine Journal of Systematic Biology Vol. III (June 2009)
> While the last suggestion above may be considered drastic, this has
> obviously limited applications and only to materials which are unambiguously
> established as having been obtained through illegal means based on available
> collection circumstances (e.g., information supplied in the publication where
> materials were cited). This suggestion is meant to exclude historical materials
> deposited in foreign institutions which by virtue of their antiquity have been
> associated with such institutions and recognized within the international
> scientific community as such. However, for recently and irregularly acquired
> materials, repatriation of such may be done following some suggested steps
> which are grounded on diplomacy and civility without disregard for existing
> international laws. As the main local entities entrusted with the enforcement
> of biodiversity laws, particularly the disposition of Philippine specimens, the
> National Museum and agencies under the Department of Environment and
> Natural Resources should take the lead in any repatriation efforts. The steps
> outlined below represent a sequential approach characterized by increasing
> complexity.
> Formal communication of repatriation request to concerned scientist(s)
> and agency head citing Philippine and international laws
> Communicate with editors of journal requesting for possible withdrawal
> of published paper involving questionable specimens and subsequent
> reprimand on erring individuals
> Dissemination of information and publicity (~peer pressure) within
> professional societies and the international scientific community
> Filing of inter-governmental or diplomatic protest based on properly
> documented evidence
> Blacklisting or watch listing of target foreign scientists/collectors with
> the Philippine Bureau of Immigration and Deportation, and the
> Department of Foreign Affairs using biopiracy as possible reasons for
> deportation and denial of entry
> The rich natural heritage of the Philippines has been threatened by
> wanton destruction
Click to expand...


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Ed;
> 
> You're pulling my post out of context, so I'm not going to argue with you anymore.
> 
> It looks like you want to get you're right, no matter what the subject is about, that's the only thing that counts; Your horse is much to high to step down from it and admit you can be wrong about things.
> 
> Here's a picture from the redhead habitat, I didn't visit there for a while and hope they are stil to be found there..
> That's what it is all about, not about you or me being right or wrong..


Fred,

I have not pulled items out of context. 

you are the person who has supplied the conflicting evidence of enforcement... not me.. 
I have provided citations that indicate what needs to occur to resolve the issue as a whole as well as multiple other things that can be done to put a brake on the system (such as the biodiversity treaty, notifying USF&W of smuggling etc) and yet none of that seems to matter as much as getting on one of several forums in North American to make claims that are unsupported (such as none of the legally imported specimens could have survived much less reproduced...) ... 

the process can't in your sole opinion work in Colombia even though it has worked in other countries with significant problems like Liberia. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> About the story's that the lehmanni is wiped out because the habitat-loss; here is a picture of the Anchicaya-valley..
> 
> Doesn't mean it shouldn't be protected though, but just to show there is still enough beautiful nature there where the frogs could live.
> If the smugglers and greedy hobbyists would have left them in peace.


The pictures do not mean that the habitat shown is suitable for the frogs in question. 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

I see, print out my papers relevant points but you want us to look thru a 25 page paper to find what your referencing. 
Ok so your final point is that we shouldn`t try unless they start beefing up security in the country of origin? If education is part of every program we list, when should we try to educate? Should we try for Brazil and Australia because they are beefing up security and not try at all for Colombia, Peru, Equador, etc.? Which countries should we try to educate people about?



Ed said:


> frogfarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.philjol.info/index.php/PJSB/article/viewFile/1014/925
> 
> 
> 
> While this is specifically targeting the scientific community (which has also been a beef in Latin American countries and a major driver of the Biodiversity treaty) the following has been a key underpinning of what is required to deal with the problem in total.
> 
> More vigilant monitoring by law enforcement agencies of collecting
> efforts particularly those involving foreign scientists and institutions,
> tourists and ‘pseudo-tourists’—agencies including local police, wildlife
> monitoring offices, customs and quarantine offices should be familiar
> with relevant provisions of various laws
> • Implement stringent sanctions for habitual offenders, and possibly offer
> amnesty to first-time offenders, while keeping the doors open for lawabiding
> and above-board entities
> • Less tedious collecting permit system for projects involving Filipino
> scientists and institutions or foreign-initiated projects involving Filipino
> collaborators in order to encourage the research efforts of home-grown
> scientists which oftentimes are undermined by unscrupulous, competing
> foreign entities who collect in the country anonymously; this will
> necessarily promote the scientific study of the country’s rich
> biodiversity primarily by Filipinos and their collaborators
> • Instill a real, unequivocal collaborative scheme between Filipino and
> foreign scientists by requiring joint authorships of research results as
> dictated by ethical, practical and IPR considerations
> • Implement editorial control measures to ensure publication of
> manuscripts using only specimens which are obtained through lawful
> channels
> • Improve the overall quality and services of local repositories
> accompanied by the upgrading of professional and curatorial skills
> among the staff
> • Repatriation of relevant Philippine materials, especially those obtained
> illegally, invoking Philippine and international biodiversity laws
> 74
> Philippine Journal of Systematic Biology Vol. III (June 2009)
> While the last suggestion above may be considered drastic, this has
> obviously limited applications and only to materials which are unambiguously
> established as having been obtained through illegal means based on available
> collection circumstances (e.g., information supplied in the publication where
> materials were cited). This suggestion is meant to exclude historical materials
> deposited in foreign institutions which by virtue of their antiquity have been
> associated with such institutions and recognized within the international
> scientific community as such. However, for recently and irregularly acquired
> materials, repatriation of such may be done following some suggested steps
> which are grounded on diplomacy and civility without disregard for existing
> international laws. As the main local entities entrusted with the enforcement
> of biodiversity laws, particularly the disposition of Philippine specimens, the
> National Museum and agencies under the Department of Environment and
> Natural Resources should take the lead in any repatriation efforts. The steps
> outlined below represent a sequential approach characterized by increasing
> complexity.
> �� Formal communication of repatriation request to concerned scientist(s)
> and agency head citing Philippine and international laws
> �� Communicate with editors of journal requesting for possible withdrawal
> of published paper involving questionable specimens and subsequent
> reprimand on erring individuals
> �� Dissemination of information and publicity (~peer pressure) within
> professional societies and the international scientific community
> �� Filing of inter-governmental or diplomatic protest based on properly
> documented evidence
> �� Blacklisting or watch listing of target foreign scientists/collectors with
> the Philippine Bureau of Immigration and Deportation, and the
> Department of Foreign Affairs using biopiracy as possible reasons for
> deportation and denial of entry
> The rich natural heritage of the Philippines has been threatened by
> wanton destruction
Click to expand...


----------



## Ed

Aaron,

I pulled that out as it reinforces what I have been saying all along. I read the reference... 

The list isn't totally appliciable as it is aimed at the scientific community and not the pet trade..but some of the more important salient points are 

1) More vigilant monitoring by law enforcement agencies of collecting
efforts particularly those involving foreign scientists and institutions,
tourists and ‘pseudo-tourists’—agencies including local police, wildlife
monitoring offices, customs and quarantine offices should be familiar
with relevant provisions of various laws

2) • Implement stringent sanctions for habitual offenders, and possibly offer
amnesty to first-time offenders, while keeping the doors open for lawabiding
and above-board entities

3) Repatriation of relevant materials, especially those obtained
illegally, invoking national and international biodiversity laws

If one then includes

4) reducing the economic viability of the smuggling by providing alternative methods of income (farming, sustainable harvest (doesn't have to be frogs, look at Brazil nut trees which then act as an umbrella to provide habitat protection)) eco-tourism, hiring the poachers to be rangers (as was done successfully in a number of programs in Africa) (this is only a short list..)

5) educating the locals as to the importance of the frogs as part of thier national heritage

6) educating out country markets (which until the price changes has the least effect) but one has to target the entire market and not a small segment of it 

7) possibly limited or controlled harvest of the frogs in some manner (whether it is for an in-country breeding program for export or upon sufficient review a sustainable harvesting program).

The program has had value in countries like Liberia..


----------



## Roadrunner

Well since you completely missed my question, what countries have sufficient security for us to start educating people about smuggling? Should we focus on Brazil, Australia and not mention Colombia Peru and Equador?



Ed said:


> Aaron,
> 
> I pulled that out as it reinforces what I have been saying all along. I read the reference...
> 
> The list isn't totally appliciable as it is aimed at the scientific community and not the pet trade..but some of the more important salient points are
> 
> 1) More vigilant monitoring by law enforcement agencies of collecting
> efforts particularly those involving foreign scientists and institutions,
> tourists and ‘pseudo-tourists’—agencies including local police, wildlife
> monitoring offices, customs and quarantine offices should be familiar
> with relevant provisions of various laws
> 
> 2) • Implement stringent sanctions for habitual offenders, and possibly offer
> amnesty to first-time offenders, while keeping the doors open for lawabiding
> and above-board entities
> 
> 3) Repatriation of relevant materials, especially those obtained
> illegally, invoking national and international biodiversity laws
> 
> If one then includes
> 
> 4) reducing the economic viability of the smuggling by providing alternative methods of income (farming, sustainable harvest (doesn't have to be frogs, look at Brazil nut trees which then act as an umbrella to provide habitat protection)) eco-tourism, hiring the poachers to be rangers (as was done successfully in a number of programs in Africa) (this is only a short list..)
> 
> 5) educating the locals as to the importance of the frogs as part of thier national heritage
> 
> 6) educating out country markets (which until the price changes has the least effect) but one has to target the entire market and not a small segment of it
> 
> 7) possibly limited or controlled harvest of the frogs in some manner (whether it is for an in-country breeding program for export or upon sufficient review a sustainable harvesting program).
> 
> The program has had value in countries like Liberia..


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Well since you completely missed my question, what countries have sufficient security for us to start educating people about smuggling? Should we focus on Brazil, Australia and not mention Colombia Peru and Equador?


Aaron,

there is no need to pick and choose.. however don't expect the problem to change unless the country of origin makes changes... All that happens is the market shifts.. as far as I can tell Fred has concentrated solely on this forum in North America... so the best he can hope for is that the people on this forum don't aquire illegal colombian frogs. His message does not reach the substantial portion of the market that does not participate on this forum and to assume that people on other forums are automatically on this forum is also an error in judgement. This also ignores the market in other countries like Japan, China, Saudia Arabia, Russia, Czechoslovakia.. and so forth. 

If you want to support a program that helps prevent smuggling donate money to CRAMP or Mark Pepper.... or find a Colombian Zoo and set up a program where you can donate to them to help deal with it... 

Ed


----------



## Dendro Dave

Fred, I have a couple of requests. Perhaps if you can answer them we can do something constructive here. 

Request #1 Could you please write up and post a detailed plan of action for us American hobbyists on how we can personally combat smuggling?

#2 Could you please list all species available in the U.S. Hobby currently that you deem legal enough for us to purchase with a clear conscience? If you aren't sure whats available here I'm sure we can help you with that.

#3 Could you compile the most complete list possible of all species that are currently being smuggled to the U.S. or likely to be in the near future ?

#4 Could you compile a list of frogs that are in the hobby already but should not be considered legal by your standards? (I think this is one of the most important issues for you to address)

That way we can cross reference the lists and be as sure as possible we are in the "right".

I think we have all heard "Don't buy Illegal frogs!" and "If you didn't buy them they wouldn't smuggle them!" or statements to that effect, enough. 

We've got it. You mention Holland a lot and how it is there...Seems to me its pretty much the same here. I wouldn't be caught dead posting pics or discussing a frog here or anywhere really that I thought the majority of hobbyists would consider Illegal...and I'm fairly sure that goes for the majority of people here.

Couple more requests/questions just so we can all be clear.

#5 What constitutes an Illegal frog in your mind?

#6 What should we do with all the frogs currently in the hobby that don't meet your standards of legality? ....And how do we enforce that these actions are taken?

You seem dedicated to the cause, and have already dedicated a fair chunk of time here. I think If you can dedicate time/redirect some of your energy to answering those requests and questions we can have a more constructive line of dialog with you...and each other. 

Until then, or this thread takes a more constructive turn this video pretty much reflects my feelings on the matter....







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onRbNsxRBVQ


Thank you.
Dave


----------



## fred

Chris;

The redheads in that area live (or lived) on different places, they are (or maybe were) found on the forest floor, close to the river, or higher on the mountain in a more open area on the rockwalls where bromelia's grow, so total different habitats.
There needs to be research done to know more about them; are they different s.sp., or do they move to other places, is the behavior different, we don't know.

Yours can be coming from the forest floor, or the rock walls, or a mix, that's very hard to say.

Interesting is to see that they sometimes sit in groups together, like they have a meeting.
In the terrarium the behavior is very social too, but the females can destroy eachothers eggs though and even the very young tadpoles stil in or just out of the eggs.
They often also sleep together more high on the leafs in the shrubs on plants.

Ed; 

I'm not going to play your yes-and-no game anymore; you will win that game like on all the other threads I read here.

Like you say, you can't see on the pictures I've send if the forests are suitable for the frogs from behind your computer, that's true, therefore you have to see and experience it in reality, the same for the situation in the country, like I mentioned before.
Also that means you cannot give a strong judgement about it, allthough thats exactly what you're doing..
My words mean nothing to you, allthough I live here and have friends here who live here all their lives and are biologists here with a lot of field-experience. 

You are telling people to donate money to CRAMP or Mark Pepper, well that's ok, but i'm sure that Mark is thinking the same about the situation like I do..
It has no use when he put a lot of time and energy in there and breeds frogs to put legal on the market, while the smugglers just take them from nature and sell them before he can do that.
I think he will agree with me that the people in the hobby are the ones that should change their attitude and stop buying illegal frogs.

By the way; there are also other people then me writing on other forums; at this moment the German forum is closed because of the illegal histrionica's being offered there, so maybe a bell starts ringing there..

Hi Dave;

It's not up to me to make rules in your country..I just want to put the attention on the horrible situation that's going on at the moment.
Also I allready have read many good idea's here, so you're quite capable to come up with a good system there. (maybe even better then we allready have in Holland).
But I think it is a good idea to work together in a more international way, this will have more effect too.
Me and others from the Dutch frogclub (who are probably better in this then I am) are allways allways willing to think and work together with you.


----------



## Web Wheeler

Fred,

Do you think a reward for information leading to the arrest, prosecution and conviction of frog smugglers would help encourage locals to protect their frogs?


----------



## Julio

Part of the people aiding the smuggling are the locals who go out and catch them for the smugglers.


----------



## ChrisK

I think a good program (possibly funded by the hobby) would be hiring locals to monitor and protect the habitat and sustainably farm the frogs, while paying them more than they get for just collecting the frogs.


----------



## Ed

ChrisK said:


> I think a good program (possibly funded by the hobby) would be hiring locals to monitor and protect the habitat and sustainably farm the frogs, while paying them more than they get for just collecting the frogs.


This has been tried in other countries and it can work provided that the money is sustainable. Once the funds run dry the situation falls apart again. It has to be set up in a way (such as with a endowment) to keep the funding stable. (odd isn't it that the out of country hobbyists are looking for real solutions?) 


Ed


----------



## Ed

Fred



fred said:


> Like you say, you can't see on the pictures I've send if the forests are suitable for the frogs from behind your computer, that's true, therefore you have to see and experience it in reality, the same for the situation in the country, like I mentioned before.
> Also that means you cannot give a strong judgement about it, allthough thats exactly what you're doing..



I have strong words for you as you have consistently failed to grasp at what is required to truly change the smuggling of the frogs. That something that is pretty clear and well recognized in other countries.. you just refuse to recognize it. 

Fred, contrary to your statements, I do not have to actually see it to have an opinion on it, the real (not grey) literature is pretty expansive on what has and hasn't worked yet. Institutions have been using a model that actually works for a number of years now but you have no interest in what works. 





fred said:


> You are telling people to donate money to CRAMP or Mark Pepper


 '

I noticed you dropped the third option off of the list, any particular reason you ignored using a Colombian Zoo option? 



fred said:


> I think he will agree with me that the people in the hobby are the ones that should change their attitude and stop buying illegal frogs.


Here we go again, abstinence... in this case abstinence from frogs... so Fred can you name two programs in which abstinence as the sole option to resolve the problem unequivocally was a success? 



fred said:


> By the way; there are also other people then me writing on other forums; at this moment the German forum is closed because of the illegal histrionica's being offered there, so maybe a bell starts ringing there..


Fred, maybe you should really read what people write (as for some reason you consistently either drop out important parts of what I write or as a response it simply can't be done..). I primarily commented on the fact that you seen to be ignoring all other forums in North America to concentrate here when this is only a small segment of the dendrobatid market. If you were serious about it, don't you think you should be concentrating on other forums in North America? 

With respect to the German forum, as has been noted in the literature and elsewhere, so long as the cost of procuring the frogs remains economically viable the market for the frogs will continue. At best you can hope is for it to shift. Causing a forum to shut down in Germany does not indicate any level of success, all it means is people got mad and violated the TOS, this is not an indication of success. 

Peer pressure is a poor choice to use as a method of control.... 


Ed


----------



## Ed

ChrisK said:


> I think a good program (possibly funded by the hobby) would be hiring locals to monitor and protect the habitat and sustainably farm the frogs, while paying them more than they get for just collecting the frogs.


As I mentioned above this by itself can be fairly effective but when combined with education and the following 

1) More vigilant monitoring by law enforcement agencies of collecting
efforts particularly those involving foreign scientists and institutions,
tourists and ‘pseudo-tourists’—agencies including local police, wildlife
monitoring offices, customs and quarantine offices should be familiar
with relevant provisions of various laws

2) • Implement stringent sanctions for habitual offenders, and possibly offer
amnesty to first-time offenders, while keeping the doors open for lawabiding
and above-board entities

3) Repatriation of relevant materials, especially those obtained
illegally, invoking national and international biodiversity laws

is exceptionally effective. However this would require that Colombia actually take steps to enforce thier rights.. and set up some enforcement. 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

Not really, that is, I wouldn`t go to a Columbian frog forum to ask for money to try and save the Grey`s tree frogs around here even if they were collecting them. Also he came up w/ something that is working (although you may not see it as such) in Holland. We can only try w/ what we can actually do. A very inexpensive way is to go to other forums and try to educate people and hope it spreads and the networking helps find solutions , esp if you`ve seen success in another group. Not everyone has access to all the studies you do Ed. Some of your solutions are beyond the average scope of us average Joe`s, but we still want to try, is that so bad?
I mean I`m still fighting my town bored for city water for 5 years. Approaching, even them(town bored) , not to mention the gov`t in Col to save frogs.... I sure wouldn`t give up my campaign to save the frogs over reading a paper or 2.
And would anyone be discussing this if Fred hadn`t come here?



Ed said:


> This has been tried in other countries and it can work provided that the money is sustainable. Once the funds run dry the situation falls apart again. It has to be set up in a way (such as with a endowment) to keep the funding stable. (odd isn't it that the out of country hobbyists are looking for real solutions?)
> 
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Not really, that is, I wouldn`t go to a Columbian frog forum to ask for money to try and save the Grey`s tree frogs around here even if they were collecting them. Also he came up w/ something that is working (although you may not see it as such) in Holland. We can only try w/ what we can actually do. A very inexpensive way is to go to other forums and try to educate people and hope it spreads and the networking helps find solutions , esp if you`ve seen success in another group. Not everyone has access to all the studies you do Ed. Some of your solutions are beyond the average scope of us average Joe`s, but we still want to try, is that so bad?


Aaron,

Is it working or has it simply shifted it underground? What happened to all of the obviously smuggled frogs that were in Holland when this self imposed peer pressure went into effect? Are we to naively assume that all of the froggers in Holland held none of the targeted species? Or did they have them euthanized? Were they shipped back to Colombia? Or did those who have them simply move thier smuggled species out of sight and continue to net work with others that they know continued to hold them? 

This also doesn't explain why he disregarded the Colombian Zoo option. 



Ed


----------



## fred

Excuse me I'm not behind the computer all day, I just check when I have a few minutes..

Web wheeler and Julio;

There are people here working on protection, and in fact, the frogs are protected.
Many people here are very poor, and they will sell these frogs if they have the chance and you can't even blame them for it..
The smugglers are the ones who make the money, but go a little furter back and you come to the hobbyists who buy them, they are the true respondsible ones.
Smugglers just see a market to make money.

About catching smugglers etc., there are other people much better in these matters, so I can't say nothing about it.
But I do know that we hobbyists are respondsible that the smugglers are succesfull.

Chris; there are programs being started here, where locals are involved and get education about it, in my opinion, this will not work.

If you know the situation here on the country side, you'll understand why.
Many people have nothing, if you want to pay locals, they will do the work, and they will protect the frogs, but you can't pay everybody, so many people see money there, and some will even risk there live for it.
So if smugglers keep on offering money for the frogs, they wil get them no matter what.

That's why it needs to be stopped at the source, and that's the hobbyists.

This situation is not only Colombia, but most of South and Central America; at this moment Colombia is the target, but maybe next few months Equador, Costa Rica or Peru; it changes when it gets too hot..or when someone find a new species..

Ed; you know nothing about this and the surrounding Country's here, so i'm not going to argue it.
Don't get me wrong; you're probably a very experienced person, and you have a lot of knowledge about laws and acces to many study's, without a doubt many times very usefull, but for sure not allways everything works out.
I'll be coming back later on some other points, but have to go now..

Frogfarm,

I think it's a very good plan, to spread the word by networking.
There's allways someone who has contacts in other Country's and by network this can easily and fast go world-wide.
Have to go now, be back later..


----------



## Web Wheeler

Julio said:


> Part of the people aiding the smuggling are the locals who go out and catch them for the smugglers.


Then offering a reward to locals for information leading to the arrest, prosecution and conviction of smugglers would raise the stakes and might require the smugglers to have a 100% compliance with the locals, otherwise they get turned in.

A reward (e.g. $5,000) for smugglers combined with local education about the plight of the frogs might become a serious deterrent. Of course, there would have to be a significant penalty for poaching in Brazil for a reward to work. Perhaps Fred could comment on this?


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Ed; you know nothing about this and the surrounding Country's here, so i'm not going to argue it.
> Don't get me wrong; you're probably a very experienced person, and you have a lot of knowledge about laws and acces to many study's, without a doubt many times very usefull, but for sure not allways everything works out.
> I'll be coming back later on some other points, but have to go now..


Ahh yes, a technique that works in many other countries (Liberia, Brazil, Philippines, Rodrigues, (even Rwanda and Congo) and so forth) of the world including other Latin American countries (like Brazil) cannot work in Colombia.. because you say so.. 

Fred, you want to not only reinvent the wheel but the concept of the wheel.. 


Ed


----------



## markpulawski

would you buy a histomanni hybrid?


----------



## ChrisK

markpulawski said:


> would you buy a histomanni hybrid?


No, but I WOULD take a lehmannicus.....


----------



## fred

Web wheeler;

I think it could work for the few locals who get the reward, but it will wake up and attrack the attention from many others who don't get a reward..:'so these frogs have a value?' 
That's what I think is the risk; wake up sleeping dogs..
But some people are working in this way; f.e. a friend of me is trying to achieve things with education, though i'm very sceptical if this will work. 

Myself i'm starting a breeding farm to put the frogs on the market in a legal way, so people can get F1 with papers, but this will take some more time; i'm allready working two years on this, (far from easy here) and now i'm coming close to finally get started.
Offcourse I wil not be able to provide big numbers of frogs, (my resources are limited) but people can breed on with them; clean start.
Species like histrionica will be sold with a id-sytem, so it wil not be so easy to legalize illegal frogs with these papers, that's the plan, hope it will work and also put down the smuggling a bit.

A part of the offspring needs to be put back in their habitat; that's an obligation here, and in case of endangered species not a bad idea, I think. 

Ed;

Does this techniques really work in many other country's?
About Liberia, Phillipines, Rodriques, Rwanda and Congo I know nothing about it..(except I hear about the gorilla-massacres in the Congo once and a while)..

But from Brasil, Equador, Costa Rica, Panama, Peru, Suriname, etc. for sure frogs are still getting smuggled out..
Not because I say so, because it is like it is..I wish you where correct in this..
So what's your point?

About your question what happend with the illegal frogs in Holland; they died out in the hobby, because they didn't breed so fast like other species, and people couldn't sell them anymore, because not many people take that risk.

Offcourse here and there will still be some people with illegal frogs, but these are very small numbers and this doesn't has the impact like in the country's where people can keep what they want..
Without any form of control it gets into a total anarchy.


----------



## jubjub47

fred said:


> Myself i'm starting a breeding farm to put the frogs on the market in a legal way, so people can get F1 with papers, but this will take some more time; i'm allready working two years on this, (far from easy here) and now i'm coming close to finally get started.
> Offcourse I wil not be able to provide big numbers of frogs, (my resources are limited) but people can breed on with them; clean start.
> Species like histrionica will be sold with a id-sytem, so it wil not be so easy to legalize illegal frogs with these papers, that's the plan, hope it will work and also put down the smuggling a bit.


This all seems to make more sense now. Had you been up front about this from the get go instead of trying to be sneaky I think your reception here would have been much different. It's been pretty obvious from the jump that you had some sort of motives behind your appearance to the forums.


----------



## fred

Hi Markpulawski;

For a fact; last year there were 'histomanni's for sale from Germany..

This is a morph/ nature-hybrid arise from a cross between the redhead histrionica and the yellow lehmanni; they called these frogs 'Anchicaya's'.

They were smuggled together with the redheads from the same area last autumn and this spring.

Hi tim; 

What do you mean; 'sneakey'? 
In the first place: nothing is sure yet, just working on it, and this has nothing to do with the subject about stopping the smuggling and wiping out species with it..
So what is the difference?
I just got this week a little bit more securely about what i'm working on, should I talk about something that is nothing more then a idea?

And like I said before; stopping the smuggling should not depend on if the frogs are available or not..that's a poor excuse.

My motive is to do what I can to protect these frogs in the wild, that's through this discussions try to make more people aware of the situation, and also I'm trying to start a breeding farm to bring the frogs in a legal way in the hobby and reduce the smuggling a little bit in that way (and after all I am a hobbyist too).


----------



## poison beauties

fred;482822
Myself i'm starting a breeding farm to put the frogs on the market in a legal way said:


> I called you out on this long ago when this started. Only someone with $$$ in their eyes would have went after Chris and other hobbyists for no reason and with no proof. You must have been hoping to shut down your potential sales competition. Well you went about this all the wrong way. I knew you had an agenda and you have now shown us all it was about the money. Call me a liar.
> I asked you and others did as well about your plans there and we were all completely mislead. I can not support a plan like yours. There are those going about it the right way and then there is your way.
> If you really cared about tfe frogs and not the money you would not have included your plans to sell the frogs in your first posting about this. Why not release them all? How about donate them to responcible breeders, zoo's, institutions?
> 
> Michael


----------



## JoshK

How wonderful is it that the people or government of Colombia don't have to take responsibility for anything, it is all on the members of DB, most of which have never even seen the frogs being talked about in person!


----------



## fred

Hi Michael;

I'm not calling you a liar, but you sure do have a strange way of thinking.
Also i'm not asking you or any other people to support my plan, don't know how you get that idea..

I didn't show you nothing about money eather.
I didn't mislead nobody; there was and is nothing to mislead anybody about plans, outside of that I have nothing to explain to nobody, or do you have any investment in here? I don't think so..

To put something clear; I have put a lot of time, energy and money in what I'm working on; I'm not rich and don't care too much about money (power) because it is the source from all misery here on this earth.
Unfortunatly the system we are living in, we can't do nothing without money, and I have no tree where it grows on, so I have to work for it. 
Giving away frogs would be great, but the project would be finished before it could begin.

If I want to make money there are a lot more easy ways to do that; smuggling frogs for example..


----------



## Web Wheeler

fred said:


> A part of the offspring needs to be put back in their habitat; that's an obligation here, and in case of endangered species not a bad idea, I think


On the other hand, this might not be such a good idea because you may wind up corrupting the wild gene pool by releasing a disproportionate number of genetically similar animals, which would not have occurred naturally. Just something to keep in mind.

Good luck with your project!


----------



## jubjub47

fred said:


> Hi Michael;
> 
> I'm not calling you a liar, but you sure do have a strange way of thinking.
> Also i'm not asking you or any other people to support my plan, don't know how you get that idea..
> 
> I didn't show you nothing about money eather.
> I didn't mislead nobody; there was and is nothing to mislead anybody about plans, outside of that I have nothing to explain to nobody, or do you have any investment in here? I don't think so..
> 
> To put something clear; I have put a lot of time, energy and money in what I'm working on; I'm not rich and don't care too much about money (power) because it is the source from all misery here on this earth.
> Unfortunatly the system we are living in, we can't do nothing without money, and I have no tree where it grows on, so I have to work for it.
> Giving away frogs would be great, but the project would be finished before it could begin.
> 
> If I want to make money there are a lot more easy ways to do that; smuggling frogs for example..


I would say you definitely mislead everybody. I don't think you're naive enough to not understand that. I give you more credit than that. It's pretty clear what your frogs would be worth in this hobby after the "questionable" frogs are run through the ringer after all your conservation and smuggling talk.


----------



## james67

fred said:


> And offcourse i can't prove all of my frogs in the past where legally, this was impossible then.


i cant find it (since i think it occurred on chris's post and was since deleted) but you said very blatantly that you dont have any columbian frogs, that was something you did in holland (this post you made also backs that up, by saying in the past, as in when you kept these frogs in captivity) now im supposed to beleive one of two lies. either you do have frogs, that your trying to breed for sale, or you dont have frogs and your recent statements were a lie. so.. which is it?

honestly, if i was so inclined and i could buy legal frogs from you or get them elsewhere (legal or not) i can say with complete confidence i would get smuggled animals before i ever did business with you. what you have done here is shameful....

perhaps columbia would have better success with attempting sustainable farm raised animals if the people involved wernt accusatory and deceiving. 

james


----------



## fred

Hi web wheeler,

Thanks.

Well, about releasing frogs back in the wild, that's another discussion..
It is not my idea, but an obligation if you want to start a breeding farm here.

I case of seriously endangered species It is the only option to get them bask out there. 

If it's such a big deal? well, evolution specialized these frogs to live in that habitat, I think they wil not be changed so drastically within one or two generations.
Most populations are allready very limited and separated, that's probably how the colour morphs arise and maintain.
But like I said; that's another interesting discussion..

Jubjub;

I can't remember I talked about prices somewhere.

So out of your comment here I can assume you feel sorry if all the questionable frogs would be gone?

James;

Just missed your comment, was allmost waiting for it; kind of funny how all the people who have problems with doing something against smuggling come out now..

Well, first; I don't have frogs, because they are illegal to keep here without permits.
I am working to get these permits for about two years now, and it is possible when you start a farm, but under a lot of conditions and requirements.
So were did I lie about what?

Wat is shamefull here, is your statement here that you would buy smuggled frogs.


----------



## poison beauties

fred said:


> Hi Michael;
> 
> I'm not calling you a liar, but you sure do have a strange way of thinking.
> Also i'm not asking you or any other people to support my plan, don't know how you get that idea..
> 
> I didn't show you nothing about money eather.
> I didn't mislead nobody; there was and is nothing to mislead anybody about plans, outside of that I have nothing to explain to nobody, or do you have any investment in here? I don't think so..
> 
> To put something clear; I have put a lot of time, energy and money in what I'm working on; I'm not rich and don't care too much about money (power) because it is the source from all misery here on this earth.
> Unfortunatly the system we are living in, we can't do nothing without money, and I have no tree where it grows on, so I have to work for it.
> Giving away frogs would be great, but the project would be finished before it could begin.
> 
> If I want to make money there are a lot more easy ways to do that; smuggling frogs for example..


Now that is a stupid comment, Smuggling frogs? You have played us all and if you have no idea what your plans could produce money wise then your ot prepared enough to do this. You absolutely could give everything you dont PROPERLY release away. There are more than enough ways to get donations to a true non profit conservation plan. I read this within the first day of your posts. 
When your first post about this farm idea includes selling and a plan to get rid of the competition whether they are legal or not it speaks volumes about your intent. $$$$$
When others and I asked you about your intensions the first day you were here you should have just told us. It would have stopped a bunch of sh*t throwing and we may have acted a bit mre civil. I can not support a plan that was hidden to us for what ever the reason. Our hobby needs an open door on communication. You have talked down to Chris and so many of us that we all see it now. You talked so much sh*t that the only thing I would support from you is a total nonprofit farm whether you ask for it or not. You are a hipocrite.

Michael


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## poison beauties

Well said James,

Fred I have a question. Where will you get your founding stock? Keep in mind every frog you take from the wild kills off a genetic line there no matter what your intending to reintroduce. What if some of them die? You have contributed to the destruction of these endangered species. If you really want to save them why not buy up some property and just sit on it and protect the frogs? It would be cheap tp do and donations and research grants would sustain you. Im guessing that doesn't fatten the pockets though.

Michael


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## james67

good luck getting an answer to that Q poison beauties, i asked something similar about 10 pages back that was never addressed



james67 said:


> the only contribution i've seen you make is accusing people and the hobby in general of supporting illegal activity. why don't you show us how its done and spend the time you are using to post defamatory comments (with NO proof) to actually go and volunteer with the conservation efforts currently in place in Columbia?
> 
> james



james


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## fred

Telling you what i'm doing is irrelevant to the matter where we are talking about here.
doesn't make any difference.

Why should you be more civil?
Doesn't make any sence to me.


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## poison beauties

First you come on here preaching and blaming others. That was a mistake as your plan involves greed and that does not sit well with me. Again, We all asked you why you were hitting this subject so hard and that should have been the time to tell us your plans. Not now and not certainly only because you think its a go. You were only setting up for a prepayed wait list if you ask me. 
Had you have came on without blame and spoke of your goals to help the hobby and not split it I would have acted more civil yes. But you did not. Perhaps you should leave the farm idea to someone who is more respected in this hobby. It is already an uphill battle for you.

Michael


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## james67

what you are doing is totally relevant, in America we call this credibility. you have made it clear from your comments that you are not credible and therefore your opinions or facts dont hold the same value as someone who has proved their credibility through their honesty and open/ fair dealings. 


why be more civil? because it would be potentially much better for you. more people might support your cause if you wernt so suspect and if you had been honest in the beginning, and btw, failing to mention that you intend to breed and release animals to the hobby IS lying about it in my book.

james


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## fred

Well, for the last time; if i'm starting a breeding farm, or other things i'm maybe doing here what you don't know about, has nothing to do with the subject of these threads: to do something against the smuggling of protected frogs.

That's the only thing that is imported to me.
Someone else starting a farm; perfect! the more the better! if it's a real farm and not a cover up to catch frogs and sell them as farmbred. 

People breeding frogs at home? very good; every frog that's being bred at home doesn't have to be taken from the wild.
But don't say you buy smuggled frogs to save the species, cause you don't; you're wiping them out, smugglers have no limits and will take them up to the last one.
There is no control there.

Well, be my gast to express your frustrations here, for now this was my last mail for tonight.


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## billschwinn

Given enough rope a person will hang themselves! I felt all along there was an agenda under the facade!You are right, money can make people do bad things.


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## poison beauties

Fred,
Keep in mind you are the one who will be taking from the wild with intensions of profiting, not us. When you came on here and started a war of words you were repeatedly asked about you work or plans for Colombia. If there is another farm coming Im sure they wont try to bury the sales competition before even elaborating as to why they are doing this. You spoke too much about conservation and protecting frogs that for you to create a farm to sell even one frog seems stupid. I will honestly do my best to make sure the people I know do not buy from you. If the protection of these frogs was that big of a deal for you it would be a nonprofit farm as I said.

Michael


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## Ed

Fred,

Before you hurt the wild populations more I suggest you look into the extensive literature on pathogens, parasites and genetic problems of release programs... To get you started (although I have no expectations that you will bother to read this one as you do not appear to have read any of the others provided) 
http://nrimp.dfw.state.or.us/nrimp/information/docs/fishreports/hatch.pdf 


I am not going to bother to pass along the information that has been successfully used as you have refused any of the other relevent information to date.. 

Ed


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## Ed

poison beauties said:


> Fred,
> Keep in mind you are the one who will be taking from the wild with intensions of profiting, not us. When you came on here and started a war of words you were repeatedly asked about you work or plans for Colombia. If there is another farm coming Im sure they wont try to bury the sales competition before even elaborating as to why they are doing this. You spoke too much about conservation and protecting frogs that for you to create a farm to sell even one frog seems stupid. I will honestly do my best to make sure the people I know do not buy from you.
> 
> Michael


Not bringing this up could easily be an underlying marketing ploy particularly if he had been successful in convincing people that all of the exports from Colombia were illegal as he consistently avered (and that none of the imports could have survived or reproduced (check the early posts on this..).. This would put him in a position to be the sole supplier of "legal" frogs.... 

Ed


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## sbreland

Ok, I'm going to shock some and say that I don't really think it's about the money with fred... I think it's a credibility issue. I will say this... I think this whole sudden "I'm starting a farm" BS is just that... BS. I don't suspect he has a plan to start a farm anymore than I have a plan to build a 2000 sq ft greenhouse and stock it with frogs (think ABG style). Sure I have a plan to do that... it's called a DREAM! I have all kinds of dreams but there is a difference between dream and reality... and that's what this is. It's a cry for credibility and a cry for "I'm really doing something"... it's a cry for recognition. Sorry, I don't believe it and the "all of a sudden" revelation just stinks of proof that this is not real. Fred, we all have dreams... I even applaud you for wanting to take on something like this but I am SURE you are full of the squishy brown stuff here simply because you offer ZERO supporting facts, plans, or documentation. You mention nothing about permitting, export law, habitat/land acquirement, plans for founding stock, or any real sort of management plan. It's a great idea but I hope I'm the only one who see's that's all it is... an idea. I would put my last dollar down that we won't see this happen (at least from fred... someone else might be a different story) in the next 5 years.


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## poison beauties

I agree but it is about the money, Otherwise he would not have thrown in plans to sell the frogs and supply papers that in his goal would drown out others with these frogs for sale.
The colombia farm idea will happen, Not with fred I hope but it will eventually happen. Like I said if it were not about the money and was a true conservation idea it would be about keeping these frogs around and a little donating, not selling.

Michael


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## jubjub47

Ed said:


> Not bringing this up could easily be an underlying marketing ploy particularly if he had been successful in convincing people that all of the exports from Colombia were illegal as he consistently avered (and that none of the imports could have survived or reproduced (check the early posts on this..).. This would put him in a position to be the sole supplier of "legal" frogs....
> 
> Ed


Exactly what I was alluding to.....


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## Roadrunner

HAHAHAA!!!! And the government was behind 911 too, right?
Many people have dreams and many people are working on frog farms down there too!
I really hope some of you open up projects in other countries and build greenhouses, etc. etc. so that you can see that there isn`t very much money in it. It all gets eaten up in costs, travel, paying cites and other gov`t permits, supplies etc. HAHA like there is a lot of money in breeding frogs, what a laugh. There is a lot of money in smuggling frogs because you pay $1 and get $500 plus when you sell them and don`t have to pay permit fees or building a greenhouse, etc.. I commend Fred on taking on the dream instead of smuggling. How many of you are going to shell out $500+ for histos(the last ones I saw went for $400ea and he couldn`t get rid of all of them)? I know of 1 farm that says they MAY be able to produce 100 a year of each morph in each greenhouse. What`s that $50k or less a year/greenhouse, minus shipping, permits, greenhouse, etc. and then there is the middle men who take 50% or more. Wow you guys are just looking for any reason to skewer Fred. Not everyone is in it for the money!!!! And whoever would buy smuggled instead of from an established farm is pretty damn selfish!!!! You guys should be ashamed. And even if it is for the money, I think someone farm raising histos and lehmanni and releasing some back deserves EVERY penny they make. SMUGGLING IS RUINING THE CHANCES OF ANY FARMS OPENING UP OR EVER TURNING A PROFIT. Whether it be egg feeders or not.


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## jubjub47

frogfarm said:


> HAHAHAA!!!! And the government was behind 911 too, right?
> Many people have dreams and many people are working on frog farms down there too!
> I really hope some of you open up projects in other countries and build greenhouses, etc. etc. so that you can see that there isn`t very much money in it. It all gets eaten up in costs, travel, paying cites and other gov`t permits, supplies etc. HAHA like there is a lot of money in breeding frogs, what a laugh. There is a lot of money in smuggling frogs because you pay $1 and get $500 plus when you sell them and don`t have to pay permit fees or building a greenhouse, etc.. I commend Fred on taking on the dream instead of smuggling. How many of you are going to shell out $500+ for histos(the last ones I saw went for $400ea and he couldn`t get rid of all of them)? I know of 1 farm that says they MAY be able to produce 100 a year of each morph in each greenhouse. What`s that $50k or less a year/greenhouse, minus shipping, permits, greenhouse, etc. and then there is the middle men who take 50% or more. Wow you guys are just looking for any reason to skewer Fred. Not everyone is in it for the money!!!! And whoever would buy smuggled instead of from an established farm is pretty damn selfish!!!! You guys should be ashamed. And even if it is for the money, I think someone farm raising histos and lehmanni and releasing some back deserves EVERY penny they make. SMUGGLING IS RUINING THE CHANCES OF ANY FARMS OPENING UP OR EVER TURNING A PROFIT. Whether it be egg feeders or not.


Aaron, I don't think anyone is arguing what you're saying. Fred did mislead people with his possible motives though. Why did he have to come out and slam every possible frog and morph from Colombia, even the ones of legal origins if he wasn't trying to bolster his future product? Why not come out in the open from the beginning and announce his intentions while also discussing the smuggling issues? Both could be accomplished in a very civil manner if everyones cards are on the table. Fred's were not. Hopefully he's able to get a program off the ground. I don't think anyone thinks we're discussing the next Bill Gates here. In Colombia I'm sure that a farm of the type being discussed probably could provide an adequate living, especially if people are afraid to touch legal frogs just because they don't carry a current import permit and pay top dollar for those that do.


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> What`s that $50k or less a year/greenhouse, minus shipping, permits, greenhouse, etc. and then there is the middle men who take 50% or more. .


50K in a country where the Gross National Income runs less than 2K a year... do the math Aaron... 
labor etc is all cheaper.. (for the GNI see http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gro_nat_inc_percap-gross-national-income-per-capita)

Ed


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## Roadrunner

As Stace said, it`s a dream. There have been people working on exporting and farms are currently breeding these animals that can`t get them out of the country. It`s not like he`s going to be the only one in town doing it. Probably not even the first. And these things are hush hush. I commend him for even saying anything online at all as no one else will. And there`s that sense of entitlement America is known for "if it`s going on it`s our right to know about it". Man this was just what I needed to cheer me up tonite, thanks guys!!


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## poison beauties

Aaron, I support a true farm setup but this is clearly a money issue. If there is no real money in it why not take donations and do it all for conservation and release all but what he donates. Every frog he takes out of the wild to start a breeding colony with is hurting the wild population no matter what he intends to reintroduce. After all the talk from Fred it is clearly about the money for him.

Michael


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## jubjub47

frogfarm said:


> As Stace said, it`s a dream. There have been people working on exporting and farms are currently breeding these animals that can`t get them out of the country. It`s not like he`s going to be the only one in town doing it. Probably not even the first. And these things are hush hush. I commend him for even saying anything online at all as no one else will. And there`s that sense of entitlement America is known for "if it`s going on it`s our right to know about it". Man this was just what I needed to cheer me up tonite, thanks guys!!


Aaron, apparently you just want to argue since you're the only one who doesn't seem to understand why this is irritating. Whether it's a pipe dream, legit, hush hush, one of many is all irrelevant.It has nothing to do with the American sense of entitlement either. We as a hobby were mislead. Period. No different than if I was to join the board one day and start bashing all froggers named Aaron for having illegal frogs and then come out a month later and tell everyone that my names Aaron and I'll have the only legal frogs. Hence dropping the market on your frogs and raising the market for mine. It's pretty simple.


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## sbreland

Ok, I take it all back... this isn't boring anymore! I'm going to go get some popcorn


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## james67

frogfarm said:


> And whoever would buy smuggled instead of from an established farm is pretty damn selfish!!!! You guys should be ashamed. And even if it is for the money, I think someone farm raising histos and lehmanni and releasing some back deserves EVERY penny they make. SMUGGLING IS RUINING THE CHANCES OF ANY FARMS OPENING UP OR EVER TURNING A PROFIT. Whether it be egg feeders or not.





james67 said:


> honestly, if i was so inclined and i could buy legal frogs from you or get them elsewhere (legal or not) i can say with complete confidence i would get smuggled animals before i ever did business with you. what you have done here is shameful....
> james


that was ME. im not saying that i support smuggling, but would never give my $ to someone like fred, who, from what i've seen, has done nothing but tell us all how WE are the problem, while maintaining that he has NOTHING to do with captive columbian frogs, only to find out that well... that was a lie. i try not to give my money to liars and manipulators. id rather deal with an honest smuggler who doesnt flaunt a holier than thou appearance (i wouldnt purchase and dont have any questionable columbian frogs from smugglers) than fred the liar, that was my point. i KNOW there are breeding programs that we will ALL be more than happy to procure frogs from that will be available in the not too distant future, but again, freds farm will suffer and its his own fault.

james


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## Roadrunner

Middlemen will take over 50%(that`s the people here who import them and sell them to you), 100 frogs $400ea means 200ea to the supplier, that`s $20,000/greenhouse if everything goes well, remember these species don`t breed every year in the wild.
And if it`s anything like the INIBICO project, their costs are listed below. And they collected all their tads from the wild, they didn`t even have to care for the breeders. i understand all these costs wouldn`t go into a histo farm but there`s #`s to mull thru and see what fits

PROJECT IDENTIFIERS
1. Project name: Poison Dart Frog Ranching to Protect Rainforest and Alleviate Poverty	2. GEF Implementing Agency: IFC (World Bank)
3. Country or countries in which the project is being implemented: Peru
4. Country eligibility: Peru ratified the Convention on Biological Diversity on June 7, 1993
5. GEF focal area(s): Biodiversity	6. Operational program/Short-term measure: OP No. 3: Forest Ecosystems

7.	Project linkage to national priorities, action plans, and programs:
The project will help to achieve Peru's goals for biodiversity, which are articulated in the “Law on the Conservation and Sustainable Use of Biodiversity.” Specifically, the project will help to achieve the objectives of Articles 3 and 5, which state Peru’s desire to: (i) promote the economic development of Peru by encouraging greater involvement of the private sector in the sustainable use of biodiversity; (ii) foster education, information exchange, scientific research, and the development of human resources concerning biodiversity and the sustainable use of its components; and (iii) generate funding mechanisms in order to adequately manage biodiversity. The project is consistent with Peru’s National Strategy for Biological Diversity, which specifies the development of sustainable uses of biodiversity and scientific research as national priorities. The project is also consistent with Peru’s Strategic Biodiversity Guidelines for the Peruvian Amazon Basin which encourage research to monitor biodiversity in the Amazon. In addition, the project is consistent with Peru’s strategies for managing its forests (e.g., Plan de Acción Forestal y de Fauna 1990- 2000) and high priority biodiversity areas (FANPE-GTZ-INRENA). 

Existing Peruvian legislation permits exportation of faunal species that are listed on CITES Appendix II if they are sustainably-produced via appropriately-managed zoocriaderos (breeding facilities). The Instituto Nacional de Recursos Naturales (National Institute for Natural Resources, or INRENA) is highly supportive of this project and is expected to facilitate export permits in the near future. No GEF funds will be disbursed to the project sponsor until the initial export permits are in place.
8. GEF national operational focal point and date of country endorsement:
This project was endorsed by the GEF Operational Focal Point for Peru, Mr. Mariano Castro Sánchez-Moreno, Executive Secretary of the Consejo Nacional del Ambiente (CONAM) on October 4, 2001.
PROJECT OBJECTIVES AND ACTIVITIES
9. Project Rationale and Objectives:	Indicators:
Goal: to protect rainforest and alleviate poverty in highly threatened sites in Peru
Objectives: to promote sustainable cultivation of poison dart frogs for export, so local people can earn a better living from conserving the forest than by cutting it down	1. Local population increase their income due to frog sales
2. Decrease in deforestation at project sites
3. The business established via the MSP profitably exports poison dart frogs 
10. Project Outcomes:	Indicators:
Biodiversity Preservation	
At least 15,000 ha of rainforest is preserved from destructive practices # of hectares conserved
Land preservation strategies in place for at least 6 communities through partnerships with INRENA or local NGOs	# of communities with land preservation strategies
Increased awareness of value of frogs/forest among at least 10,000 schoolchildren and 850 adults	# of schoolchildren instructed and # of adults trained
At least 20 INRENA officials will be fully aware of sustainable frog production methods and able to monitor sustainability of frog business's practices	# of INRENA staff trained
Decrease in slash-and-burn and other destructive agricultural practices among at least 250 campesino families	# of campesinos who abandon slash-and-burn practices
Poverty Alleviation	
At least 250 campesino families bring their income to minimum wage via the frog business	# of campesinos reaching minimum wage via frog business
At least 100 campesinos earn minimum wage from local and international tourist visits to collection centers & project sites	# of campesinos who can earn minimum wage through local or foreign tourist visits
Conservation of Poison Dart Frogs	
Populations of at least 60 Peruvian poison dart frog species will be stable or increasing	Population size of selected species and variants
Illegal smuggling of Peruvian poison dart frogs will be virtually eliminated # of smugglers identified 
Additional Project Benefits	
Commercialization of additional NTFPs	# of feasibility studies carried out that lead to sustainable production of additional NTFPs
Sustainable frog production will be initiated in at least 2 other countries # of new countries using ZIRA method for frog businesses or in-situ conservation purposes
Expertise about Peruvian amphibians and their habitat will be increased among at least 30 Peruvian academics	# of academics participating in joint seminars or research
11. Project Activities Indicators:
1. Inventory of frogs and related biodiversity resources (status, threats, etc.) ($ 62,715)
2. Organizing, technical assistance and capacity building for local producers ($97,406)
3. Establishment frog production lots ($291,601)
4. Collection centers’ infrastructure, equipment and operation ($681,310)
5. Training and capacity building in national institutional counterparts ($24,190)
6. Market development and international media promotion ($137,405)
7. Model replication in other countries and with other NTFPs ($128,642)
8. Ecotourism and tourism development ($20,000)
9. Educational outreach ($31,620)
10. Project management and administration ($177,842)
11. Monitoring and evaluation of social, environmental and economic indicators ($80,000)	1. Inventories, manuals and other documents issued.

2. Local producers organized in committees and trained.
3. Frog production lots established & operational
4. Collection centers operating and exporting
5. Technical staff at INRENA trained to monitor & supervise sustainable poison dart frog production 
6. Annual sales of sustainably bred poison dart frogs & participation in frog trade associations/events
7. Poison dart frog community-based production model is replicated in other countries and with other NTFPs
8. # of tourists paying to visit poison dart frog attractions/tours 
9. # of educational talks/seminars given
10. Timeliness & quality of quarterly reports to IFC; financial audits
11. Timeliness & quality of M&E reports
12. Estimated Budget (in US$):

Project Preparation:
GEF: $ 25,000 PDF-A
Co-financing: $ 39,000 World Bank “Innovation in the Marketplace” (cash) 
TOTAL: $ 64,000

Project Implementation:
GEF: $ 788,540
Co-financing: $ 56,000 World Bank “Innovation in the Marketplace” (cash) 
$ 272,732 Frog Export Business (cash)
$ 26,131 INIBICO (in kind)
$ 351,375 Curmi (87% cash; 13% in kind)
$ 186,264 Frog Producer Associations (in-kind)
$ 55,880 INRENA (Peruvian Government) (in kind)
$ 45,000 Distributors (cash) 
TOTAL: $ 1,781,922

GRAND TOTAL: $ 1,845,922


Ed said:


> 50K in a country where the Gross National Income runs less than 2K a year... do the math Aaron...
> labor etc is all cheaper.. (for the GNI see Gross National Income (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.)
> 
> Ed


----------



## Web Wheeler

Fred,

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the majority opinion here. Regardless of the veracity of your new revelation, you need to FIRE YOUR PRESS AGENT!

If you had come here with full disclosure, you would not find yourself in this current predicament.


----------



## Roadrunner

What was the other part? He`s trying to make people get rid of all their histos so they`d have to rebuy them from him? Is that because there is so many out there that they`d have to be euthanized or else there would be no demand for them or that the ones brought in are breeding so well the competition would be worse than the other farms getting permits before fred does? I`d want any smuggled ones out of the hobby so that they wouldn`t be legitimized but that`s a bit much but what seems more plausible is not seeing them disappear before my dream of a frog farm came true. Besides, I think he`d have a good market since most of the frogs that came in were males, correct? I`d think that`d increase his business since people would`ve already started collecting them and would need to pair a bunch of unrelateds up?
I can see where y`all are comin from but it seems a bit far fetched to me.
At least w/ Save the frogs I had the quotes off his website as proof before I went off.... And it still comes down to Smuggling is wrong.


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## poison beauties

The fact is the frogs here are here whether legal or not. They play their own roll in breeding to help with demand like you said takes away from the need to smuggle. I think Fred wants them gone to place a monopoly on the histo trade. 
The amount of money he would or could make is not the issue, Its the way he has planned to do it. I would Bet my entire collection that if Fred was offered a nonprofit way to help with a farm for conservation puposes only he would not go for it. I know for a fact that if exporting was not his intent but breeding and only reintroduction was he could get funding and donations that would sustain his project. Not to mention research grants that many would provide.

Michael


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## Ed

I was going to disassemble the Inbico economic application step by step when compared to Fred's comments but I thought why bother.. it isn't appliciable as Fred has already stated that a lot of those items are not part of his goal.. educating locals according to Fred only increases smuggling... increasing thier income is impossible (according to Fred) so those aren't part of the program.. He has no need to protect large tracks of forest (as he isn't working on sustainable harvest) so that cost is also out the window.. .Those also cut way down on the costs while maximizing potential profits.. 

Out of the whole spiel posted on costs.. there are only really two figures that are important 
an expected gross sale of frogs of $272,732 Frog Export Business (cash)
(which is a far cry from the estimated 50K Aaron provided)... so in reality he could throw up a bunch of 20 by 60 foot hoop houses with AC and misting systems for well less than 5 K each.. which is a much less cash out lay (which is the second important number) than Inbico (but then Inbico had much grander plans like actually protecting the rainforest and making sure the locals earned more money (hmmm where have we heard before that should be part of the plan...) and as a result have a higher profit margin....

The profit margin Aaron is citing depends a lot on the goods and how available they are to the market. If a supplier has the only source for a product, they can force the buyers to come to them and pick and choose. This means that they do not have to set or choose a system that allows a 200% markup as they change hands. In part this is due to the higher quality of the product which reduces loss and a part of the need to exceed doubling at each step. If the supplier is well set-up they can also directly sell to a market which also allows for a reduction in markup by middlemen. 

Ed


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## Ed

poison beauties said:


> The fact is the frogs here are here whether legal or not. They play their own roll in breeding to help with demand like you said takes away from the need to smuggle. I think Fred wants them gone to place a monopoly on the histo trade.
> The amount of money he would or could make is not the issue, Its the way he has planned to do it. I would Bet my entire collection that if Fred was offered a nonprofit way to help with a farm for conservation puposes only he would not go for it. I know for a fact that if exporting was not his intent but breeding and only reintroduction was he could get funding and donations that would sustain his project. Not to mention research grants that many would provide.
> 
> Michael


I thought it was odd that he continually rejected the model known to work for local conservation but in retrospect it is now clear as to why he continually rejected that model. It would cost money.... 

Ed


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## ErikHa

It seems like some people have found the ideal scape goat in Fred. Though i agree he should have put forward his plans (i knew about them) earlier it seems some people have now found the stick to hit him with. 
Perhaps it's some weird mechanism of not having to deal with the guilt of owning, condoning or acting unaware of illegal frogs? Perhaps it's jealousy?

Right now we're trusting people who claim their 'histrionica's' are clean, even without the remotest evidence that that is the case. Okay, but why not trust Fred that he is sincere in his efforts? 
After all: what are *WE* doing to prevent frogs from being smuggled and going extinct? Not much, except citing researchpapers and presenting models...

It's sad that some feel they have the moral high ground when they are doing nothing, even condoning or participating in keeping illegal frogs, when someone who really makes an effort gets bashed for making a stance, beit poorly timed.


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## Roadrunner

60 morphs Ed, to make that much money from non egg feeders and collecting tads to boot, no adults to care for(you didn`t really look that over well now did you). Man he must`ve really got to you. All about the money. I didn`t believe your model either , Am I in on it w/ him? LOL
Ya Ed when someone feels good about what their doing it`s kinda hard to change plans and give up when you "take away their Santa Claus". But you wouldn`t know because you would have looked up the studies and decided it wasn`t worth it because you couldn`t get the gov`t to comply. I`ll tell you what Ed, If I ever give up hope the way you do because of a study and try to bash someone`s dreams because they don`t agree w/ me, you have permission to end it for me right then and there. 



Ed said:


> I was going to disassemble the Inbico economic application step by step when compared to Fred's comments but I thought why bother.. it isn't appliciable as Fred has already stated that a lot of those items are not part of his goal.. educating locals according to Fred only increases smuggling... increasing thier income is impossible (according to Fred) so those aren't part of the program.. He has no need to protect large tracks of forest (as he isn't working on sustainable harvest) so that cost is also out the window.. .Those also cut way down on the costs while maximizing potential profits..
> 
> Out of the whole spiel posted on costs.. there are only really two figures that are important
> an expected gross sale of frogs of $272,732 Frog Export Business (cash)
> (which is a far cry from the estimated 50K Aaron provided)... so in reality he could throw up a bunch of 20 by 60 foot hoop houses with AC and misting systems for well less than 5 K each.. which is a much less cash out lay (which is the second important number) than Inbico (but then Inbico had much grander plans like actually protecting the rainforest and making sure the locals earned more money (hmmm where have we heard before that should be part of the plan...) and as a result have a higher profit margin....
> 
> The profit margin Aaron is citing depends a lot on the goods and how available they are to the market. If a supplier has the only source for a product, they can force the buyers to come to them and pick and choose. This means that they do not have to set or choose a system that allows a 200% markup as they change hands. In part this is due to the higher quality of the product which reduces loss and a part of the need to exceed doubling at each step. If the supplier is well set-up they can also directly sell to a market which also allows for a reduction in markup by middlemen.
> 
> Ed


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## jubjub47

Erick, it's all in the approach that Fred took. Wanna good example to compare it with? Look at the Brazil project. They have come out from the start and laid out there intentions, discussed the issues and have the full support of the hobby. They have not come out on an offensive attack on Brazilian frogs in the hobby and have put any thoughts of exporting animals as a secondary goal that's not even going to be looked at until their project is off the ground. It's much easier to put your support behind somebody that is being up front with you.


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## Ed

ErikHa said:


> It seems like some people have found the ideal scape goat in Fred. Though i agree he should have put forward his plans (i knew about them) earlier it seems some people have now found the stick to hit him with.
> Perhaps it's some weird mechanism of not having to deal with the guilt of owning, condoning or acting unaware of illegal frogs? Perhaps it's jealousy?
> 
> Right now we're trusting people who claim their 'histrionica's' are clean, even without the remotest evidence that that is the case. Okay, but why not trust Fred that he is sincere in his efforts?
> After all: what are *WE* doing to prevent frogs from being smuggled and going extinct? Not much, except citing researchpapers and presenting models...
> 
> It's sad that some feel they have the moral high ground when they are doing nothing, even condoning or participating in keeping illegal frogs, when someone who really makes an effort gets bashed for making a stance, beit poorly timed.


So we should trust some one "who is sincere" in his efforts but not the hobbyists who have frogs that alleged to be illegal by Fred (and now you) even if "they are sincere in thier efforts". 

You have a total of 6 posts that started after Fred got on here and all have been pro-Fred or supportive of Fred regardless of the topic matter. You are trying to downplay over 20 years of progress in setting up conservation programs as well as the underpinning research that shows what is needed to actually combat smuggling to support Fred... 
Your credibility isn't looking too good at the moment either.. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner

oh, and all that money and projects were supposed to stop the smuggling of 60 morphs of dartfrogs. well inibico went belly up and there is even another project out there bringing in cb frogs from Peru and we still get "New EURO bloodlines" of veradaro and benedicta, etc.


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> 60 morphs Ed, to make that much money from non egg feeders and collecting tads to boot, no adults to care for(you didn`t really look that over well now did you). Man he must`ve really got to you. All about the money. I didn`t believe your model either , Am I in on it w/ him? LOL
> Ya Ed when someone feels good about what their doing it`s kinda hard to change plans and give up when you "take away their Santa Claus". But you wouldn`t know because you would have looked up the studies and decided it wasn`t worth it because you couldn`t get the gov`t to comply. I`ll tell you what Ed, If I ever give up hope the way you do because of a study and try to bash someone`s dreams because they don`t agree w/ me, you have permission to end it for me right then and there.


Where did he state his market model is going to only include egg feeders? He has stated he wants to farm them but hasn't ruled out the other species.... Not my model.. your quoted model edited exactly based on what Fred said were and were not possible. 

Aaron, you are really getting defensive and jumping all over a topic/study etc with out any supporting evidence other than an opinion..and a lot of accusations against me including this one which gives a strong indication that you have not only some real issues with using references to back up points


frogfarm said:


> And I`m sick of you trying to make me look bad because I can`t produce research papers,


 but that you also have personal issues with me which maybe why you feel you have to continually attack me and attempt to put me down. I have no clue as to why you feel the need to continually attempt to make me look bad and/or prove me wrong but I think you should sit down and wonder about it... 

Ed


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> oh, and all that money and projects were supposed to stop the smuggling of 60 morphs of dartfrogs. well inibico went belly up and there is even another project out there bringing in cb frogs from Peru and we still get "New EURO bloodlines" of veradaro and benedicta, etc.


So in your opinion, the reason Inbico failed was because smuggling didn't stop? That how the project and money was handled didn't play into it anywhere? 

Ed


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## markpulawski

For pages we all stated we would overwhelmingly support farm raised frog species out of Colombia, I would give accolades to anyone that could get that done....for 20 years it has been talked about. Colombia has some of the neatest egg feeders and small species that exist, also the Terrible trio.
I would fully support anyone that could make that project viable, and the day an ad goes up for legal Colombian species most everyone on this board will as well.


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## fred

Some people have a lot of frustrations going on..I pity them.

First thanks for everybody who is sending me excuses for the behavior of the ones who are in full attack here.
But don't worry about it; I doesn't bother me at all, they are only making fools out of themselfs showing their bad attitude here on the internet for everybody to see.

Well, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned anything at allabout a farm, cause it's irrelevant to what this this topic is about.
Just mentioned it for all the people here who are worth it.

I don't need to inform anything to nobody in the first place, and if I do, it is because I choose to do that.
If I would get donations from people, it is more or less an oblication to give information about what I'm doing.
I'm not asking for any donations or support in this, I'm working on my own, put my own time, money and energy in there, so I think I have the right to choose whenever or whatever information I want to give.

Besides; I never talked about prices etc., so no need for paranoid behavior.
It's clearly to see that this isn't going about anything here; the problem is what it is all about from the beginning; the battle against the smuggling..

It's not worth it to make a big deal from these people flushing dirty words, it's all out of frustrations and an attempt to attract the attention away from the subject.
More important is to keep focussing on the problem about the frogs being wiped out by smugglers.


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## Roadrunner

Hmmm, you`ve led from citing papers to making a lot of accusations because of Fred. What`s your dibs in this, are you so worried that your belief structure would be destroyed if something changes or do you have stock in wc histos? Why is it so hard for you to let others try? I think Fred already said catalog the ones already in the hobby and no more smuggled frogs from here. 
And the attitude towards smoking around your kids and in your own house has changed as for evidence from multiple friends and other people I know.
Oh, and I`m attacking you because you always want to try and destroy someones dreams. A lot of studies have been proven worng and I don`t think people should "just give up" because of your "proof". All of those studies only go by what is known about smuggling by people getting caught. Where is all the data from the stuff that makes it thru? I think those "studies" are missing about 90% or more of their data and that`s a really large margin of error. How can you tell me that smuggling hasn`t decreased because of attitudes and education when 90% of your data is missing. That`s a really large spread to make rock hard conclusions from. I simply don`t believe you have enough proof. why do you have such a hard time w/ that? Not everyone believe`s 100% in research papers. It`s like your trying to make science everyone`s religion. Now don`t get me wrong, i believe in a lot of the scientific work out there but when your missing that much data I don`t have to believe it. As Ive said before, should we just give up if we can`t get the gov`t to jump on board? Your answer was that we could educate but don`t expect it to change anything. I take that as a nasty condescending comment.


Ed said:


> Where did he state his market model is going to only include egg feeders? He has stated he wants to farm them but hasn't ruled out the other species.... Not my model.. your quoted model edited exactly based on what Fred said were and were not possible.
> 
> Aaron, you are really getting defensive and jumping all over a topic/study etc with out any supporting evidence other than an opinion..and a lot of accusations against me including this one which gives a strong indication that you have not only some real issues with using references to back up points but that you also have personal issues with me which maybe why you feel you have to continually attack me and attempt to put me down. I have no clue as to why you feel the need to continually attempt to make me look bad and/or prove me wrong but I think you should sit down and wonder about it...
> 
> Ed


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## markpulawski

Ed said:


> So in your opinion, the reason Inbico failed was because smuggling didn't stop? That how the project and money was handled didn't play into it anywhere?
> 
> Ed


What I heard was the ego of the person running the inibico project got in the way of it succeeding, so Ed your comment about how the project was handled is an accurate description as to why it failed. However i would submit that had there been no smuggling both the Inibico and UE customer lists would be 10 times longer than they were.


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## Ed

markpulawski said:


> What I heard was the ego of the person running the inibico project got in the way of it succeeding, so Ed your comment about how the project was handled is an accurate description as to why it failed. However i would submit that had there been no smuggling both the Inibico and UE customer lists would be 10 times longer than they were.


Correct but we cannot claim that the reason it didn't suceed was because of smuggling... smsuggling may have played some role but it wasn't the reason for the failure as has been alluded to by other posters. 

Ed


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Hmmm, you`ve led from citing papers to making a lot of accusations because of Fred. What`s your dibs in this, are you so worried that your belief structure would be destroyed if something changes or do you have stock in wc histos? Why is it so hard for you to let others try? I think Fred already said catalog the ones already in the hobby and no more smuggled frogs from here.
> And the attitude towards smoking around your kids and in your own house has changed as for evidence from multiple friends and other people I know.
> Oh, and I`m attacking you because you always want to try and destroy someones dreams. A lot of studies have been proven worng and I don`t think people should "just give up" because of your "proof". All of those studies only go by what is known about smuggling by people getting caught. Where is all the data from the stuff that makes it thru? I think those "studies" are missing about 90% or more of their data and that`s a really large margin of error. How can you tell me that smuggling hasn`t decreased because of attitudes and education when 90% of your data is missing. That`s a really large spread to make rock hard conclusions from. I simply don`t believe you have enough proof. why do you have such a hard time w/ that? Not everyone believe`s 100% in research papers. It`s like your trying to make science everyone`s religion. Now don`t get me wrong, i believe in a lot of the scientific work out there but when your missing that much data I don`t have to believe it. As Ive said before, should we just give up if we can`t get the gov`t to jump on board? Your answer was that we could educate but don`t expect it to change anything. I take that as a nasty condescending comment.


Aaron,

I am going to say this one time more... your personal attacks are getting in the way of any opinion or evidence you can provide and could affect your reputation. I have yet to attack you personally; (despite your repeated determination to reinterpret replies and citations as personal attacks) however you cannot say the same. 

You are determined to downplay any and all citations I provide by using the argument that any study can change.. even though we both know that this is not true and that it depends on the weight of supporting evidence (and I have even provided the occasional counter examples to studies I have provided in the past..) I have provided many things with a huge amount of supporting evidence which you also continue to ignore based on your personal opinion of "studies can change"... In short you are continually arguing from a predetermined position of belief... 

I strongly suggest that you may want to seriously think about the image your continued attacks are portraying... 


Ed


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## Roadrunner

I didn`t say it failed because of smuggling I`m saying it failed to STOP the smuggling. I also said that smuggling will be the downfall and may keep them from getting off the ground because the smugglers can get these frogs out quicker and cheaper than any farming project. Remember, smuggling is wrong. I`m not saying to euthanize any suspect animals, just to be educated about the situation and your future purchases


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## Roadrunner

Hmm, so your attacks on Fred about it being all about the money is ok? I didn`t see a research paper for that one. And I`m not worried about my reputation I`m worried about people using your argument to give up trying. I`m trying to keep hope alive. Maybe you don`t understand that. But at your request I`ll stop. I`ll visit this thread no more. 



Ed said:


> Aaron,
> 
> I am going to say this one time more... your personal attacks are getting in the way of any opinion or evidence you can provide and could affect your reputation. I have yet to attack you personally; (despite your repeated determination to reinterpret replies and citations as personal attacks) however you cannot say the same.
> 
> You are determined to downplay any and all citations I provide by using the argument that any study can change.. even though we both know that this is not true and that it depends on the weight of supporting evidence (and I have even provided the occasional counter examples to studies I have provided in the past..) I have provided many things with a huge amount of supporting evidence which you also continue to ignore based on your personal opinion of "studies can change"... In short you are continually arguing from a predetermined position of belief...
> 
> I strongly suggest that you may want to seriously think about the image your continued attacks are portraying...
> 
> 
> Ed


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## fred

Hi Aaron;

Don't worry about your image; to begin with you have my respect and I'm sure also from many others who are fighting for the good case.

It's a pity that Ed is losing the overvieuw of this topic; I think he could bring a good contribution in this..

The problem in this kind of communication is that we can't talk face to face, and words get easy misapprehend; talking face to face is totally different.
In the past I have had wars going on with people on line, and meeting them later, having a normal conversation, we could get along very well..
Also the idea's we had that seemed so different, were not so different after all..

If we worry about our reputations, we can't talk at all here on line..
What's the problem with reputations? if we are no criminals, we can talk what we want and also we can make misstakes; everybody does..

I'm not hatefull, and I don't care that people sometimes go out of their mind; sometimes I do the same, we are all human..
All these people saying all these bad words here; it doesn't mean to much to me; maybe they are very good persons in 'real life'..and maybe they don't mean it in such a bad way, but if they do, also fine by me; you can't be everybody's friend..

This was a short sidetrack; don't let nobody chase you away..


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Hmm, so your attacks on Fred about it being all about the money is ok? I didn`t see a research paper for that one. And I`m not worried about my reputation I`m worried about people using your argument to give up trying. I`m trying to keep hope alive. Maybe you don`t understand that. But at your request I`ll stop. I`ll visit this thread no more.


Aaron,

I don't care whether you visit or don't this thread or any other thread.. you have a severe disconnect with reality for some reason when it comes to me and I'll deal with it. 

Ed


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> I didn`t say it failed because of smuggling I`m saying it failed to STOP the smuggling. I also said that smuggling will be the downfall and may keep them from getting off the ground because the smugglers can get these frogs out quicker and cheaper than any farming project. Remember, smuggling is wrong. I`m not saying to euthanize any suspect animals, just to be educated about the situation and your future purchases


And who was argueing that it would totally eradicate smuggling? This was a start up operation that involved 6 villages.. expecting the uplifting of six villages to stop smuggling is ridiculous in the extreme. There are a lot of things that have to happen before a significant reduction in smuggling can occur. 

This does nothing to support your argument. 

Ed


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## fred

Ed; 

One question; you say that you know everything about this subject, so why are you not doing anything with it if it's so important to you to prove your right?
Or am I wrong, and are you actually working somewhere out there to educate natives?
That would be interesting.
Only having comments on people who actually are trying to do something is not logical to me..
Offcourse, research results can be valuable information, but it doesn't mean they are all the infinite truth..

By the way; I thank you for your ideas and information, even if I agree with it or not, that doesn't matter.

But the only way if you really want to prove your right, is to go out there and start workin on it I would say..
Here we can only get and share ideas, information and arguments, but it sure can lead to something more sometimes.

Maybe time now for everybody to start working together, instead of these useless fights?
Put your pride away, shake hands and see if there is a common interest in this.
I'm doing things my way, others do their things in another way, doesn't mean we can't excist together..

The goal is stil to do something against the smuggling of frogs and protect them against extinction.
Everybody who has totally no interest in this don't need to react on this thread I quess..


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## ChrisK

fred said:


> Ed;
> 
> One question; you say that you know everything about this subject, so why are you not doing anything with it if it's so important to you to prove your right?
> Or am I wrong, and are you actually working somewhere out there to educate natives?
> That would be interesting.
> Only having comments on people who actually are trying to do something is not logical to me..


Hi fred,

Just for your future reference so that you don't need to keep asking (and since Ed really dislikes doing this......  ):
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...9-crested-geckos-dart-frogs-9.html#post415727


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## Ed

In addition to those few things.. 
I spend a lot of time educating people on various aspects and problems and not just on here.. I've also worked on issues with not only the Puerto Rican crested toads, and Wyoming Toads Projects, but was on the Steering committee for the Cryptobranchid Interest Group (CIG) and was part of the group who voted on awarding grants for thier study, as well as helping get the initial pamphlets designed and distributed.. Then there are the aspects of TWI that include education.. ahh can't forget Project Golden Frog either.. or working with the TNC in the Pine Barrens to discuss local ecology and anthropogenic effects on the habitat as well as problems with incidental take... Did a little field work and habitat assessment on Timber Rattlesnakes in the Pine Barrens... and this doesn't include all of the conservation programs I've sat through the presentation and regular updates on ranging from Golden Lion Tamarins, to Bali Mynahs, to Rhinos, to Antiguan Racers to Gorillas to Bush pigs to leopard frogs and so forth..yada yada yada....


Basically I've been involved in wildlife conservation programs for close to 20 years... and in addition to what has been published have some direct hands on experience for what works and doesn't work... as well as fund raising for conservation causes (NAAC (North American Amphibian Conference), IAD (International Amphibian Day))... 

Ed


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## fred

Hi Ed;

That's all quite impressive and I do appreciate that you share your knowledge here with people on the forum and try to help them out.
I do the same if I can.

One thing though, is that you only can give advice, no more..I know that sometimes we want to put our mark on it to heavy, and that doesn't work..
People who don't take your advice still need to be respected (i'm also talking to myself here)

Here in Colombia are some biologists with good experience also thinking in different directions..both with study's behind them in different directions..
What works and what doesn't work..and maybe the question is also where does what work and where doesn't it..do you know what I mean?
Not every situation is the same.

Just an our ago I got a visit and talked with a friend biologist - frogspecialist here, and we talked about the lehmanni and about educating the people in that area; he knows the area and the people very well, and he said immediatly that he is absolutely sure it will not work there..while another friend biologist here is just working on a project there..
We'll see.

I've seen the situation and I think it will not work as long there is a demand for these frogs. 
There are still some histrionica morphs there..


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## markpulawski

I have a good friend going to the Cali Zoo to do an amphibian work shop in August, I can't wait to talk to him after his return. Fred perhaps you can PM me your contact info and I can pass it on to him.


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## Ed

fred said:


> Just an our ago I got a visit and talked with a friend biologist - frogspecialist here, and we talked about the lehmanni and about educating the people in that area; he knows the area and the people very well, and he said immediatly that he is absolutely sure it will not work there..while another friend biologist here is just working on a project there..
> We'll see.
> 
> I've seen the situation and I think it will not work as long there is a demand for these frogs.


Fred,

You are reinventing the wheel.. If you had bothered to pay attention to what I have been saying all along you would have already known that by itself there is no expectation for there to be any change in attempting to educate the locals without the other needed sections. Nor should there be any real expectation of change by only attempting to educate only a small segment of the North American hobby.. nor should there be when combining the two. It is only through the steps cited above (such as increased goverment policing and the use of diplomatic and treaty obligations..) that smuggling can be reduced. Otherwise you are actually feeding the whole problem by increasing demand.... 

As long as the other items are not integrated into a whole program, nothing will change. No marketing effort using only abstinence as its sole option in a market model has ever worked... 

The best you are going to achieve is watching demand increase as other countries come on line for increased demand.... 

But as you are determined to ignore not only practical experience but the tools to reduce smuggling and models which reduce smuggling, you obviously do not want to hear anything different. 

Have fun reinventing the wheel... 

Ed


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## fred

Hi Ed;

Sure in your study's and advice are very valuable ideas and lessons to learn.
Don't think I ignore it..

Like I said before, you have to experience the situation here to be able to make a judgement about it.
Besides of that; i'm an alien here, and can only pass on all kind of information to others here who can do something with it. (wich I do regulary)

I just do what I can do.

Also, don't underestimate the power of the internet..I think Dendroboard is one of the best frog-cites in the world, and I see people writing here from many places and country's.
They are in clubs and they talk with eachother.

I don't need to reinvent the wheel, you're right, but we still do need to invent something that actually really works against smuggling.

I'm not saying that I'm the one who's going to do that, I just do what I can.
If everybody does his or her part we can make a big difference I think.

It is not a difficult task; people, just don't buy illegal or doubtfull frogs is allready enough..


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## poison beauties

Fred,
You are going to create a much larger demand for the frogs by exporting them for sale. Your paper work idea will not work and as an example lets say I have the histo's you are selling. All I have to do is buy them from you and breed them. Take all the froglets from both groups and sell them under your paper work. It happens all the time. I do not have nor have never had these frogs but the only way you can truely help with keeping them around is with a 100% nonprofit reintroduction plan. There are ways to fund this and while I know you wont go this way I thought you should be well aware of what your options are. The minute you begin exporting frogs for sale you have given an open to all smuggled frogs to be legalized. Every frog you properly release benefits the problem way more than exporting for captive breeding as the problem is they are disapearing in the wild. Not here.

Michael


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## Dendro Dave

poison beauties said:


> Fred,
> The minute you begin exporting frogs for sale you have given an open to all smuggled frogs to be legalized. Every frog you properly release benefits the problem way more than exporting for captive breeding as the problem is they are disapearing in the wild. Not here.
> 
> Michael


I've heard this argument a lot...and while in the short term I don't really disagree with it, it seems to me that in the long term having an established captive bred population would eventually do more to help wild populations and limit smuggling. The potential benefits outweigh the potential risks. (Possibly at least)

Initially smugglers/distributors may hide behind the legal frogs but most people in the hobby will choose a truely legal frog over an illegal one. I'd like to think the same applies in other countries as well (more ethical people vs unethical) And many of us and I assume its similar in other countries are plugged into the hobby enough to be able to get a fairly good idea who would have the truely legal frogs vs the ones pawning off smuggled ones as legal CB. I bet most people here can rattle off the names of at least a couple of people legal versions of this frog would likely come through (Mark pepper, Marcus at SNDF, Sean Stewart etc..etc..). And they should only be allowed in through monitored channels. Joe blow shouldn't be able to go get a permit and import these just because he has a few bucks in his pocket. If Joe Blow uses the legal ones to try and cover his 100 smuggled frogs, I bet most of us are gonna be like "Ok no way this guy could get 100 of these legal when only 2 people in the country are allowed to import them and they just came in last week for the first time" I have enough faith in us that its likely Joe Blow won't find many customers here...and because of the changing circumstance he'll find fewer and fewer over time. As most are aware there is a lot of talking that goes on behind the scenes of DB and other forums. Who has what, what this and that person are up to..etc..etc...

The high prices for most of these animals will also help to limit the damage because there are only so many people at a given time willing and able to pay that price. So its unlikely you can send a huge flood of illegal animals in and sell them at the CB price. The smugglers would still be subject to all the inherent risks they currently are when actually getting the frogs out of the country which places a soft cap on the number of smuggled animals regardless if they become legal once they reach a particular country. I assume if they catch you at an airport in Germany with 200 frogs in your coat saying "oh well um they are offspring from my friends frogs down the road!" is unlikely to get you out of trouble.

Lets say someone pulls it off though, well in the long run they are only hurting their buisness...with the legal and illegal frogs now *combined* to form the total available population in the hobby we will reach a point were the CB population far outnumbers the initial smuggled frog population and that CB population will fuel the hobby and answer the demand while simultaneously driving down the price of the animals making it less lucrative to bother smuggling them. Essentially you'd be making the illegal frogs everyone has been quietly holding onto into a weapon to eventually prevent further smuggling. As it stands right now they and any off spring are just sitting there doing little if anything to combat smuggling and limit further demand.

Here is another thing to think about regarding that. Lets say a species is made legal, so smugglers go out and get 100 of them to sell perhaps cheaply...and we are like "oh no! Its our fault they took those 100 since we made them legal now". While it is true many populations would be hurt badly by that number taken from them, remember those frogs are now in the CB breeding pool helping to meet demand limiting the number of customers for future smuggled frogs...So while you had 100 frogs taken that month....maybe that number would equal or be near what would have been taken over the next year or several years...But now that there is a CB pop that number drops...possibly to 0. 

So the same or near the same number of frogs are taken either way in the long term. But...and this is a big but, something we need to consider with dwindling habitat and other threats is this: Are most populations likely to suffer such poaching better now...or later? Unless the frog is in the process of a major recovery, it seems more likely to me that most populations would better survive a loss taken now then they would later. And that loss would eventually also help to limit future losses.

Its the people that are kind of on the fence, the ones that would prefer a legal frog but are unscrupulous enough to buy an illegal one if they can't get the frog legally that will make up the difference in the long run. And remember a lot of people who currently have illegal animals are that type of person, so if their animals die they'd now have the opiton to go legal when they replace them instead of remaining in the shadows. So effectively you remove a future customer from the smugglers. We all know these animals often don't fair as well as CB. 

Also even people that don't know one way or the other are more likely to end up with CB instead of smuggled as the CB pop overwhelms the initial smuggled pop, or number of animals continued to be smuggled. So there you kinda get a shotgun effect where you are hitting a good number of people that as they enter the hobby won't be relegated to the shadows when they discover their frog is illegal. Then they in turn can help increase the CB pop and limit demand for smuggling animals.

There is likely to be more of those then people willing to just outright purchase Illegal frogs when they don't have to. At least that is my general impression of human nature  If the illegal ones sell for half price that may change the dynamics, but then it would sure make them easy to spot for everyone, and again with the combination of CB frogs the overall prices get driven down faster decreasing the stretch of time smuggling that species is a worth wild risk for most if not all involved.

I don't have any papers or statistics to back up that thinking but it seems logical and a plausible scenario to me when viewed in the long term. If there is evidence to refute that it would likely play out that way I'm more then willing to reconsider my perceptions. I understand why there is fear that legal importations of commonly smuggled frogs would in the short term hurt the frogs and help the smugglers, and how the gut reaction to that may blind us to long term benefits but I think we need to take a much longer term view here then many seem to have taken so far. 

Its kind of a variation on the give a man a fish vs teaching him to fish notion. Teach him to breed fish and he'll always have them, and most would rather breed or buy legally bred fish then stolen ones so no need for you or others to poach fish to meet that demand. I think we need to work with human nature here instead of against it. Its possible this line of thinking would apply to some frogs and not all. 

Some species that just fail to thrive in captivity and breed slowly may be more at risk from allowing the legitimization of them legally because their CB numbers will never reach a point where they can meet demand enough to out pace the influx of smuggled frogs. And I see this as the most damaging argument against my theory. So perhaps it should be on a frog by frog basis. Also the question of how much more ready for these frogs are we now were we several years ago begs serious consideration. Mystis seem to breed pretty easy, perhaps thats a frog that we can be fairly sure things would turn out like I theorize. Histos maybe not...We can't say for sure though, so we have another important question to consider. While there may be more risk to them especially in the short term if we legitimize currently illegal animals and we may not be able to breed them successfully enough to counter the illegal demand significantly in the long term there is the possibility we could which would would do a lot to end the illegal trade for them. Which possibility has the best ratio of risk vs reward? It seems to me we need to evaluate each species carefully a long with all the threats to that species not just smuggling. One frog who's habitat is reasonably safe now may benefit from legalization more then one who's habitat isnt...or vise versa depending on the species and other threats/circumstances. 

Just some thoughts, feel free to rip them apart


----------



## Ed

Hi Dave,

the basics fall out at until the rate of captive breeding offsets the rate at which demand increases (which is going to be extraoridinarily high in the beginning), the economics are going to favor increased smuggling as the smuggled animals can then be laundered into the existing population. 

Ed


----------



## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> the basics fall out at until the rate of captive breeding offsets the rate at which demand increases (which is going to be extraoridinarily high in the beginning), the economics are going to favor increased smuggling as the smuggled animals can then be laundered into the existing population.
> 
> Ed


Agreed, but does this out weigh the potential long term benefits? for all species, or just some? Which species are likely to survive this best and benefit the most in the long term? Which ones likely can't and would be put at more overall risk then opposed to just leaving the situation as is. 

Basically I'm saying this could be a tool that used wisely could benefit us and the frogs long term...but like any tool it could cause damage accidentally/purposely. Its how and when we use it that will make the difference.


----------



## fred

Hi Dave,

I just wanted to answer Michael, but you allready did it very well.

Hi Michael and Ed; If you think something doesn't work, and you think to have something that does work, you're free to try it.

Ed; why did you ask people to donate money to Mark Pepper (wich I think is a good thing) while you think his system doesn't work?
He is also breeding frogs and reduce smuggling in that way..once they are in the hobby legal, people don't need to take the risks to buy illegal ones..

Only I think it is important to be carefull with new species, unfortunatly it is not possible to talk about new species anymore, cause the smugglers wil be there soon.
So first breed them, then put it out in the open, that wil give the frogs a bit more protection.
Anyway, keep the place very secret.


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> Agreed, but does this out weigh the potential long term benefits? for all species, or just some? Which species are likely to survive this best and benefit the most in the long term? Which ones likely can't and would be put at more overall risk then opposed to just leaving the situation as is.
> 
> Basically I'm saying this could be a tool that used wisely could benefit us and the frogs long term...but like any tool it could cause damage accidentally/purposely. Its how and when we use it that will make the difference.


Hi Dave,

I agree but we won't know for sure until one of the following occurs 
1) the situation occurs and is monitored to track the effect on the wild populations
2) studies are done before it occur 
3) both occur. 

Even with species like ball pythons that are "ranched" in large numbers as well as captive bred, no follow-up studies have been done on the wild population (see the long argument in the can wc reduce cb demand thread) to see the effects on the wild populations. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

Let me phrase this another way using the scientific method for Ed  

We have a hypothesis, a desired out come, a set of variables, the basic frame work for an experiment and a certain amount of risk inherent in the experiment that effects the materials, environments where the experiment will take place...and it even has risks for the experimenter and others (us and everyone effected by what happens in the natural world or legally). 

It seems to me that that we can set up this experiment in some form for some frogs taking into account the variables and risks the best we can and have a decent chance of getting the desired outcome while limiting the risks to everyone/thing. 

But if we don't try we just have a hypothesis and a desired outcome...no results, and the same problem we had before in ALL cases.


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## Ed

how much of the related background literature do you want to read?? To look at the variables???  
There is a lot of it that applies (although some will try to say it doesn't because it isn't directly about frogs....) 


Ed


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## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I agree but we won't know for sure until one of the following occurs
> 1) the situation occurs and is monitored to track the effect on the wild populations
> 2) studies are done before it occur
> 3) both occur.
> 
> Even with species like ball pythons that are "ranched" in large numbers as well as captive bred, no follow-up studies have been done on the wild population (see the long argument in the can wc reduce cb demand thread) to see the effects on the wild populations.
> 
> Ed


No argument there...Thats exactly what I'd like to see done. I just hope we still have a chance for that to occur in most cases and aren't at a point in some where we will just have to wing it based on our best guesses and hope for the best...I'm afraid we are though, and that in some cases running this experiment now or soon may be the only hope unless things change drastically soon. Waiting has risk too ;(


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## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> how much of the related background literature do you want to read?? To look at the variables???
> There is a lot of it that applies (although some will try to say it doesn't because it isn't directly about frogs....)
> 
> 
> Ed


LOL I knew I was asking for that  And I agree that sometimes people get tunnel vision and don't understand how broader concepts initially applied elsewhere may in part or full be a benefit to their specific issue. A very annoying quirk of humanity I've had to deal with all to often ;( (Of course I'm probably guilty like most of it too...hopefully on much more rare occasions though)

I'm afraid there are far better people suited to make use of that research and run that experiment then me. At this point I feel like about all I can do is bring up some good points, ask some relevant questions, refrain from buying smuggled frogs and maybe kick a few bucks to a worthy cause. Maybe someday I'll be in a better position to get my hands dirty. I wouldn't mind seeing where these beauties come from, and maybe doing something useful while I was there. Anyone wanna buy me a plane ticket?  Or find me a job locally or one willing to pay for my move to work in the field?


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## sbreland

Dendro Dave said:


> Maybe someday I'll be in a better position to get my hands dirty. I wouldn't mind seeing where these beauties come from, and maybe doing something useful while I was there. Anyone wanna buy me a plane ticket?  Or find me a job locally or one willing to pay for my move to work in the field?


Let me get out of medical school and I'll consider it... but better not quit you day job in the meantime


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## Dendro Dave

sbreland said:


> Let me get out of medical school and I'll consider it... but better not quit you day job in the meantime


LoL this is my day job!  

Fired as black jack dealer for no call no show when I did call and talked to a security supervisor, and then called one of my supervisors at home and let them know i wouldnt be in. Casino was closed half day due to snow so other then security no one was there when I called. The supervisor I called at home didnt document the call in, and claimed he told me to call our manager or the casino back later...He did not, she ofcourse believed him over me.

He was groggy cuz i woke him up so maybe he thought he did, or he was covering his own butt...not sure. But if I would have had any idea I had not just called out properly I would have instantly been on the phone with the department manager. Basically I got screwed big time. Luckily Unemployment took my side of things. 

Saw a cool job at the OKC zoo for assistant reptile keeper with experience breeding amphibs, no degree required, but while the pay was good enough for me...12 bucks an hour isnt worth moving to another city. Sent Resume including my frog/animal experience to tulsa zoo and jenks aquarium but nothin yet. Did almost get hired by the aquarium last year when job hunting but they went with a saltwater geek despite my more varied experience and some salt water knowledge ;(

Wow way off topic...my bad


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## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> LOL I knew I was asking for that  And I agree that sometimes people get tunnel vision and don't understand how broader concepts initially applied elsewhere may in part or full be a benefit to their specific issue. A very annoying quirk of humanity I've had to deal with all to often ;( (Of course I'm probably guilty like most of it too...hopefully on much more rare occasions though)
> 
> I'm afraid there are far better people suited to make use of that research and run that experiment then me. At this point I feel like about all I can do is bring up some good points, ask some relevant questions, refrain from buying smuggled frogs and maybe kick a few bucks to a worthy cause. Maybe someday I'll be in a better position to get my hands dirty. I wouldn't mind seeing where these beauties come from, and maybe doing something useful while I was there. Anyone wanna buy me a plane ticket?  Or find me a job locally or one willing to pay for my move to work in the field?


Don't sell youself short.. one of the most important things is to accept the data as it is without attempting to modify it.. 

If we were not applying things we learned from in other species and then applying them holistically to anurans we would really be in the dark ages as advances ranging from medical treatments to nutrition to seeding enclosures would all be ignored as those were all advances made either based on other animals or other disciplines than simple captive husbandry. 

Ed


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## ErikHa

So when the market is 'flooded' with legal lehmannii, the demand for illegal lehmannii stays the same? I'd like to see a research paper on that.


----------



## fred

So let me ask you again:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed; why did you ask people to donate money to Mark Pepper (wich I think is a good thing) while you think his system doesn't work?
He is also breeding frogs and reduce smuggling in that way..once they are in the hobby legal, people don't need to take the risks to buy illegal ones..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are preaching the demand wil go up when we bring c.b. legal frogs in the hobby, instead of it brings down the smuggling..!!

I agree that If a new species is discovered, the smugglers are there very fast and bring them in before there can be cb's..
We have seen this happen many times now, but as soon there are c.b.'s with papers, the smuggling goes down, we've seen that too. (also remember this hobby is world-wide growing rapidly)

So it's only logical that if we don't buy them from the smugglers, and wait for the c.b.'s, the pressure on the wild populations wil go down.
Hobbyists are the ones who need to be educated about this in the first place.

Another thing is offcourse habitat-protection; cutting down forests for all kinds of reason, can offcourse wipe out species, we know that.
Though, when people keep on buying illegal frogs on big scale, this protection has not much effect.

By the way; also legal wild-caught frogs can do serious damage to populations.
This is very delicate in my opinion; if study's show there can be so much quota every year, and they make a mistake or see things wrong (happends a lot with study's), it can do serious damage to the populations, specially if in the same time the populations gets more pressure with f.e. bad breeding season conditions, (wich occors a lot lately) or deseases (chitrid).

We like to make everything complicated and impressive, that's when we lose the reality.
Keep it simple and clear:

The less hobbyist who buy them, the less smuggling....1+1 = 2.

The more culture-bred, the less need for wild-caught....1+1 = 2.


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## jubjub47

ErikHa said:


> So when the market is 'flooded' with legal lehmannii, the demand for illegal lehmannii stays the same? I'd like to see a research paper on that.


It's been shown in other species that no matter how much a species is imported there is still demand. Just take a look at the number of auratus brought in yearly and they are arguably one of the more established species in the hobby. I think that no matter what import quota you put on Lehmanni, the demand will still surpass it and be a factor in smuggling.


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## fred

Hi Tim,

If that's true, it only gives more reason to educate the people in the hobby and change the system to make it more difficult to bring in smuggled frogs.

Though I doubt that auratus is getting smuggled.


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## ChrisK

fred said:


> Though I doubt that auratus is getting smuggled.


You do, do you?


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## jubjub47

I'm sure that there are auratus being smuggled. Their high import quota makes them very easy to launder as nobody questions their legality. My point is still that no matter what amount of lehmanni are imported legally, the consumer demand will still be high enough to facilitate smuggling. I find it a pipe dream at best to see the day that such a slow breeding and minimally producing frog floods the market. I would love to see it happen, but I tend to look at things a bit more realistically.


----------



## Julio

fred said:


> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> Though I doubt that auratus is getting smuggled.


AURATUS are the #1 smuggled frog year in and year out, based on that statement it is pretty obvious that you bring up topics that are controversial and you dont' know what you are talking about half the time.


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## sbreland

Julio said:


> AURATUS are the #1 smuggled frog year in and year out, based on that statement it is pretty obvious that you bring up topics that are controversial and you dont' know what you are talking about half the time.


And that he hasn't looked at the citations and numbers Ed has posted here... oh, I don't know, what.. about 10 times at least?? It's has been WELL documented and presented, fred just chooses to ignore the facts like they didn't happen...


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## fred

Julio;

I have no idea why someone should buy smuggled auratus; there are so much of them to get in a legal way; maybe new morphs?..well, I believe you if you say they get smuggled..probable they do..a lot more gets smuggled then we know about.
I don't hear about this in Europe anyway.

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about like you say, that is possible; and you obviously do; so tell me; how do you know that auratus is the #1 smuggled frog?

You must have more information to make this statement, and how is this possible in the USA? isn't it time to do something about it then ?

And like I say; this only indicates how uncontrolled the situation in this hobby is.

Jubjub; you're right in that point; lehmanni will never flood the market, I even doubt if there are enough lehmanni left to safe the species..
Also histrionica wil not flood the market; but there is a possibility to get them more stable in the hobby.

Sbreland;

I thought you are sick and tired of this thread, but it seems you stil keep on reading it and fill in your useless complains where you can..

I mean can't you speak for yourself, and come up with your own usefull points, instead of using Ed's posts all the time?
He allready did that, so no point for you to repeat him..
Or can you only come up with nasty things by yourself?

I think people are more bored with your nagging then you are with this thread..

Some people do take this subject serious and try to make serious conversations, even if they disagree on some points.


----------



## Ed

ErikHa said:


> So when the market is 'flooded' with legal lehmannii, the demand for illegal lehmannii stays the same? I'd like to see a research paper on that.


That would require the supply to exceed demand.... given that into the USA alone we had imported close to 50,000 auratus over a five year period.. I think that a market flooded with legal lehmanni is not going to be anywhere in the near future....


----------



## Ed

Fred,





fred said:


> So let me ask you again:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ed; why did you ask people to donate money to Mark Pepper (wich I think is a good thing) while you think his system doesn't work?
> He is also breeding frogs and reduce smuggling in that way..once they are in the hobby legal, people don't need to take the risks to buy illegal ones..
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> You are preaching the demand wil go up when we bring c.b. legal frogs in the hobby, instead of it brings down the smuggling..!!
> 
> I agree that If a new species is discovered, the smugglers are there very fast and bring them in before there can be cb's..
> We have seen this happen many times now, but as soon there are c.b.'s with papers, the smuggling goes down, we've seen that too. (also remember this hobby is world-wide growing rapidly)
> 
> So it's only logical that if we don't buy them from the smugglers, and wait for the c.b.'s, the pressure on the wild populations wil go down.
> Hobbyists are the ones who need to be educated about this in the first place.
> 
> Another thing is offcourse habitat-protection; cutting down forests for all kinds of reason, can offcourse wipe out species, we know that.
> Though, when people keep on buying illegal frogs on big scale, this protection has not much effect.
> 
> By the way; also legal wild-caught frogs can do serious damage to populations.
> This is very delicate in my opinion; if study's show there can be so much quota every year, and they make a mistake or see things wrong (happends a lot with study's), it can do serious damage to the populations, specially if in the same time the populations gets more pressure with f.e. bad breeding season conditions, (wich occors a lot lately) or deseases (chitrid).
> 
> We like to make everything complicated and impressive, that's when we lose the reality.
> Keep it simple and clear:
> 
> The less hobbyist who buy them, the less smuggling....1+1 = 2.
> 
> The more culture-bred, the less need for wild-caught....1+1 = 2.


I'm not going to rehash any arguments for you as you obviously are not going to pay attention to any of them or the accompanying literature. I have stated my case, backed up by the appropriate references and you have repeatedly flat out refused to acknowledge that there could be any correlations by retreating into a world of unicorns singling the hallelujah chorus.. 

As for Mark Pepper's efforts.. it is because he is following a model that works which is a far cry from the wheel you are attempting to reinvent... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Hi Tim,
> 
> If that's true, it only gives more reason to educate the people in the hobby and change the system to make it more difficult to bring in smuggled frogs.
> 
> Though I doubt that auratus is getting smuggled.


And froggy went a trolling on a summers' day. ahem ahem
froggy went a trolling on a summer's day ahem ahem
met a forum on the way ahem ahem.....


----------



## DendroJoe

*The Subject is "Would you buy WC Lehmanni? " *Why is Fred in this. he doesn't own any frogs. Mind your own business. This is an USA Forum. Who are you to keep on BSing in this forum. Do you know all the laws here. I don't Think so. So keep your Columbian Butt out.... take care of the drugs problems and join Fish & Wildlife in Columbia, so you can stop Frogs and others being smuggle out. End of Story


----------



## james67

DendroJoe said:


> *The Subject is "Would you buy WC Lehmanni? " *Why is Fred in this. he doesn't own any frogs. Mind your own business. This is an USA Forum. Who are you to keep on BSing in this forum. Do you know all the laws here. I don't Think so. So keep your Columbian Butt out.... take care of the drugs problems and join Fish & Wildlife in Columbia, so you can stop Frogs and others being smuggle out. End of Story


because the title was changed from "fred like him or hate him" (or something like that) to would you buy WC lehmanii.

but lets get some things straight... 

fred MUST own these frogs (or care for them somehow) since he is supposedly starting a farming op down there

fred is dutch, not colombian, he just lives there.

james


----------



## markpulawski

DendroJoe said:


> *The Subject is "Would you buy WC Lehmanni? " *Why is Fred in this. he doesn't own any frogs. Mind your own business. This is an USA Forum. Who are you to keep on BSing in this forum. Do you know all the laws here. I don't Think so. So keep your Columbian Butt out.... take care of the drugs problems and join Fish & Wildlife in Columbia, so you can stop Frogs and others being smuggle out. End of Story


Joe one of the Mods came up with the title, this thread was originally called simply...Fred, he has every right to state his opinion, as we all do.


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## frogfreak

DendroJoe said:


> This is an USA Forum.


I thought it was an international forum based in the USA?

This is on the WORLD wide wed eh.

Give your head a shake man.


----------



## markpulawski

It's actually Kyle's forum facilitating froggers from anywhere. We all have one thing in common the health and well being of our hobby, and all of these viewpoints have exercised that perspective....no matter how incensed some of us become. Passion is a good thing (did Martha Stewart say that?).


----------



## fred

Hi Ed;

You're talking a lot about Santa Claus, Unicorns, froggy went a trollin' on a summers day, seal off country's from smugglers, educate natives who have no food and do just anything to stay alive not to sell frogs to smugglers, etc., this all belongs in the land of fairy tales if you ask me..

But enough grazyness now, just joking a little..

You still didn't answer my question; why is the farm of Mark Pepper ok (also I think it is ok), and other farms are not ok?

Aren't you being a little double here? 

I have read your quotes of study's, etc., and I thanked you for it, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with everything.

Please explain me why Mark Peppers farm can work, and other potential farms can not work..

(by the way: Mark, If you read this; I have a lot respect for what you're doing!)

Dendro Joe;

If this is a forum only for USA hobbyists, I wil keep out of it. (and they would throw me out, I quess)
But to my information it is an international forum in the USA, correct me if i'm wrong.
The point is that frog smuggling is an international issue wich concerns all of us.. (us = we; before someone feels attacked again..)
It was not my planning to write here about illegal frogs (check out the first thread: illegal frogs on this forum).

Also I think if this a USA forum, it is a democratic forum where we can discuss everything in an open and civilized manner..isn't it?

Hi James;

I allready said before that I own no frogs yet at this moment, permits are necessary for that. (allmost there)
I have no problems with people who hate me; that's their problem.
For myself I see no reason to hate anybody here; just don't agree with everything, that's all.


----------



## poison beauties

Fred,
You will not stop or even put a dent in smuggling with your plan. Once you start exporting the demand for these frogs will skyrocket as many hobbyists have not shown interest in these frogs but will the minute they can be aquired. This will increase the smuggling and your paperwork on the ones you supply will not fix the problem. You speak of other farm projects but I can guarentee you that the biggest issues in smuggling are going to be based around Colombia which puts you in the crosshairs of as you will be the only one working out of there. The minute you export demand will rise and you will make smuggling frogs here a bit easier on the people who are getting them. The frogs will come out of the woodwork right about the time the first of your imports here breed.
Perhaps you should worry about breeding for reintroduction only until their numbers are stable. There are a great number of issues that put these frogs in danger. Until the numbers rise in the wild and their territories are properly protected you have no real ethical ground or reason to export them for sale. The only reason I see you doing this is for a quick buck. There are ways to fund your project without selling the frogs that you say you are trying to protect. The problem must be taken on there.
The only problem I have with you on this forum is your unwillingness to take other's words into consideration to the level you expect us to listen to you. You have produced less proven knowledge and proof to your arguments than we have on this side, Keep that in mind. Reposting our posts and joking or opinionating them gets you no respect to your side of the argument. Wrong or right we all are trying to contribute to fixing the problem.

MIchael


----------



## Ed

Fred,
I already supplied the answer to your question (including the one about Mark) more than once but for some odd reason, you have consistently failed to grasp it.. I'm going to try a different method of teaching... research it yourself and find it if you can. If not, no loss on my part. 

I will repeat what I said in that post.. I strongly recommend for those interested in supporting a working program to donate to Mark Pepper, Brian Kubicki's C.R.A.M.P. or if you have sufficient backing to contact one of the Colombia Zoos and seeing about financing a real program. 


Ed


----------



## jubjub47

Ed said:


> Fred,
> I already supplied the answer to your question (including the one about Mark) more than once but for some odd reason, you have consistently failed to grasp it.. I'm going to try a different method of teaching... research it yourself and find it if you can. If not, no loss on my part.
> 
> I will repeat what I said in that post.. I strongly recommend for those interested in supporting a working program to donate to Mark Pepper, Brian Kubicki's C.R.A.M.P. or if you have sufficient backing to contact one of the Colombia Zoos and seeing about financing a real program.
> 
> 
> Ed


Haha, you clearly answered the question about Mark's operation about 5 posts back. I think it's time we all give up on this thread, especially you.


----------



## fred

Ed;

My English is not so good, but I should be able to find your answer, but only thing what I do find is no satisfying answer to me, just nonsens.

Another thing I do see here, is that your ego is enormous, and you rule this forum lika a true guru; you even have some followers who throw rose petals on your walking path!!

If someone disagrees with you, you become nasty, like a spoiled child, and your followers follow..
It's a pity you've lost reality and live on a pink cloud..
You should have a little more respect for others; even a beginning enthousiastic hobbyist can come up with new idea's and you can sometimes learn something there.

Don't think with throwing around your list of achievements (very modest action by the way) justifies your bad and arrogant attitude, not at all, it makes it even worse.

Do you know that some people send me emails that they don't write here, because they know they are getting to be beat down by you or one of your followers..

I'm not someone who's going to lick your feet like the of the others do; you don't impress me at all.

Don't like to talk in this way, but it seems there's is no option here to have a normal conversation without nastyness, don't like it at all.

Step of your cloud, come down to the ground, and show some respect for other people who don't agree with you, open your eyes, then we can talk again..and I can take you serious again.

Untill then your (or your followers/ clones) words mean nothing to me
Time for a beer now.
Cheers!


----------



## jubjub47

fred said:


> Ed;
> 
> My English is not so good, but I should be able to find your answer, but only thing what I do find is no satisfying answer to me, just nonsens.
> 
> Another thing I do see here, is that your ego is enormous, and you rule this forum lika a true guru; you even have some followers who throw rose petals on your walking path!!
> 
> If someone disagrees with you, you become nasty, like a spoiled child, and your followers follow..
> It's a pity you've lost reality and live on a pink cloud..
> You should have a little more respect for others; even a beginning enthousiastic hobbyist can come up with new idea's and you can sometimes learn something there.
> 
> Don't think with throwing around your list of achievements (very modest action by the way) justifies your bad and arrogant attitude, not at all, it makes it even worse.
> 
> Do you know that some people send me emails that they don't write here, because they know they are getting to be beat down by you or one of your followers..
> 
> I'm not someone who's going to lick your feet like the of the others do; you don't impress me at all.
> 
> Don't like to talk in this way, but it seems there's is no option here to have a normal conversation without nastyness, don't like it at all.
> 
> Step of your cloud, come down to the ground, and show some respect for other people who don't agree with you, open your eyes, then we can talk again..and I can take you serious again.
> 
> Untill then your (or your followers/ clones) words mean nothing to me
> Time for a beer now.
> Cheers!


Fred, I'm afraid you see it this way because you are on the wrong end of this disagreement. I believe it's very easy to feel the way you do when having a conversation of this level with Ed. The amount of detail and references that he posts can be very intimidating. If you spend any amount of time on these forums, you will see that Ed is not afraid to admit if he's wrong. Yes many members do follow what he says pretty closely, but that is due to his reputation of handing out good solid advice and information. You are really doing a disservice to yourself and your cause by not at least reading through the information that he's posted and digesting his advice. He's got a very big resume in the fields that you claim to be interested in yet you discredit and ignore everything he says.


----------



## fred

I think i'm quite done here with this thread now; it's allmost impossible to have a normal conversation, I just realized..
Pity though..

Well, I've said about what I had to say about it, let everyone draw there own conclusions.

For the guru and his clones; rule on and knock youself out..
Fine by me.


----------



## Ed

jubjub47 said:


> Fred, I'm afraid you see it this way because you are on the wrong end of this disagreement. I believe it's very easy to feel the way you do when having a conversation of this level with Ed. The amount of detail and references that he posts can be very intimidating. If you spend any amount of time on these forums, you will see that Ed is not afraid to admit if he's wrong. Yes many members do follow what he says pretty closely, but that is due to his reputation of handing out good solid advice and information. You are really doing a disservice to yourself and your cause by not at least reading through the information that he's posted and digesting his advice. He's got a very big resume in the fields that you claim to be interested in yet you discredit and ignore everything he says.



Tim,

I think Fred is simply going to ignore this as he is viewing you as one of the yes people. 


Oddly enough if Fred in the beginning had asked for clarification 'because his English wasn't so good", I would have made allowences but whether there is or isn't a lack of understanding doesn't excuse a continual reliance on false assumptions, arguments from positions of belief and repeated denials... 

I've explained the information repeatedly and in great depth.. I feel no further need to discuss issues with a person whose whole arguments are predicated on the above listed positions. 

Ed


----------



## james67

i personally disagree with your stance based on the way youve presented yourself fred, and the way you came here attacking people. ed had made valid points (many of which you still have failed to counter in any productive way), but i dont always agree with him. so dont delude yourself into thinking that everyone is sticking up for ed. 

you really could have come here had a better (less condescending) attitude and the entire conversation would have been different. i dont think anything could have changed the outcome of this thread after the ball got rolling as you had already solidified your stance, which you quite obviously believed was on higher moral ground than the rest of us. 

good luck and goodbye,
james


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Sooo,

after 3 threads ( 2 of which were locked) 96 pages and over 900 responses- what the hell is the answer?
I hate to think all this was for nothing. 

Anyway, I would not buy a WC Lehmanni.

John


----------



## sbreland

And now balance has returned to the force... let us all breathe.


----------



## ChrisK

Yeah back to the REAL business - fred, my sister is in bocas del toro right now doing marine life research, she said she would make the hour flight down there to you to pick up the group of WC lehmanni you're holding for me, she'll ask for fred the Dutchman at the zoo.......


----------



## fred

Hi John;

It is not for nothing; if there are only a few people who got the message, it's worth it, they will pass it on.


And for the clones; 

Like I said: knock yourselfs out!
Make a fool out of yourselfs a little more, you're doing a good job!

Chris; 

Maybe you can put some more pictures of those histos?

By the way, maybe you're right; c.b. farmed frogs maybe should only be send to other places where people have there hobby in order and are not going to use the papers to legalize all the smuglled animals they have at home what the system apparently approves and does nothing against it.

I'm sorry for all the goodwilling people here, but you have to open your eyes and see what people keep on give the hobby a bad name.

Goodluck everyone.


----------



## markpulawski

Fred contact me when the legal animals are ready for export, I will be happy to help distribute them in the states and be happy to put 100% of the profit back into Colombia for preservation. We will ALL be friends then.
CB Farming will not stop smuggling but it's a start and I for one will say take that step and who knows taking many steps will eventually lead us somewhere. 


This thread contains enough venom to change the name to....Would you buy a WC Terribilis


----------



## markpulawski

I would also suggest that most of us agree that there is more than one right way to do things in this hobby. Both perspectives on this subject have their merit.
Colombia, I believe in some parts of Africa poachers are shot on sight, it sure is a big place but if the risk of being killed were in the equation would someone really want to collect frogs for a dollar or 2?
And Fred is right, if tomorrow every single hobbyist said i will not buy a frog I suspect of being smuggled, smuggling would stop.
Of course both of the above steps would require changing human nature, an enormous challenge indeed!!!


----------



## jubjub47

markpulawski said:


> I would also suggest that most of us agree that there is more than one right way to do things in this hobby. Both perspectives on this subject have their merit.
> Colombia, I believe in some parts of Africa poachers are shot on sight, it sure is a big place but if the risk of being killed were in the equation would someone really want to collect frogs for a dollar or 2?
> And Fred is right, if tomorrow every single hobbyist said i will not buy a frog I suspect of being smuggled, smuggling would stop.
> Of course both of the above steps would require changing human nature, an enormous challenge indeed!!!


I don't think that anyone has said there is only one way to do things. What is being suggested though is that based on history, there is a list of criteria that must be met in the plan to achieve success. When discussions of which organizations have had success and which have not and the reasons why each have worked and not worked, Fred just discarded all information.

As for the smuggling, it's never going to end. Even with your example of Africa, some find the risk of death worth it to poach and smuggle. Things can be done to help and alleviate some of the pressures, but in reality it's a battle that will never end.


----------



## markpulawski

I agree smuggling will never end, even with the threat of death. People with little or nothing lose don't fear death..much.

But how does this sound?
Mark's Oophaga Farm, what would my catch phrase be?
oophaga, it's not just for breakfast anymore
oophagism...catch it

OOPHAGISTS...god bless you!


----------



## poison beauties

fred said:


> Hi John;
> 
> 
> Chris;
> 
> Maybe you can put some more pictures of the frogs that you're so proudly are helping to exterminate?
> 
> By the way, maybe you're right; c.b. farmed frogs maybe should only be send to other places where people have there hobby in order and are not going to use the papers to legalize all the smuglled animals they have at home what the system apparently approves and does nothing against it.
> 
> I'm sorry for all the goodwilling people here, but you have to open your eyes and see what people keep on give the hobby a bad name.
> 
> Goodluck everyone.



Fred,
The truth is once you export those frogs for sale you will be contributing to the extinction far more than any other hobbyist has. You will see. Demand will rise as more people will want them. This opens the doors for smugglers. 
Your papers are worthless once the frogs breed here. All will be laundered in.

Mark, 
I would support that plan as well but the issue is Fred seems to be in this for the money so either way he will be getting paid. You have to consider how many frogs he will ship east for a buck. His plan along with the fact that exporting for sale was as immediate as the conservation plan tells many of us that the amount of frogs he is planning to work with is going to be a chunk taken out of the wild population.

Michael


----------



## Dendro Dave

poison beauties said:


> Fred,
> The truth is once you export those frogs for sale you will be contributing to the extinction far more than any other hobbyist has. You will see. Demand will rise as more people will want them. This opens the doors for smugglers.
> Your papers are worthless once the frogs breed here. All will be laundered in.
> 
> Mark,
> I would support that plan as well but the issue is Fred seems to be in this for the money so either way he will be getting paid. You have to consider how many frogs he will ship east for a buck. His plan along with the fact that exporting for sale was as immediate as the conservation plan tells many of us that the amount of frogs he is planning to work with is going to be a chunk taken out of the wild population.
> 
> Michael


These statements are somewhat contradictory. On the one hand the implications of your first statement to Fred would seem to imply that You are against ANY new legal exports of frogs including the work done by inibico, Mark Pepper and similar programs. On the other your saying you would support such programs that seem to have more altruistic goals even if frog sales are part of it. 

Which ever your opinion you're entitled to it either way, and I'm not trying to attack you or either possible opinion...just thought I'd point out the contradiction. All intentions are good natured


----------



## fred

Exactly Michael;

That's why these animals will only be exported to country's where they have there registration or other working systems in order, so the papers can not so easely be used to legalize illegal frogs.

Country's where you can keep and show around smuggled frogs without any problems, are not and wil not be on my list.
So for that far my answer to your accusations that i'm doing this for the money. (again, I'm not even talking about prices yet..).

Best thing would be if those frogs could be offered in different country's around the world, offcourse it wil be a limited number of animals, then they could be bred on by hobbyists to work against the smuggling.

But offcourse then the controlling system in the country should be sufficient, and no 'wild-west'..

Well, I think I have been clear enough now, do with the information what you want, but for me it is really been anough now to discuss this any further.

Goodluck to you all.


----------



## poison beauties

Dave,
I personally believe none of them should be exporting out of Colombia where many of these frogs are disapearing and I believe noone other than me suggested a nonprofit conseration project to Fred down there with no exporting. There are not enough frogs in the wild to sustain them apparently so why take from the land for any reason other than reintroduction? On the other hand I believe Freds plan is to export so if it is done right and the money is put back into the project for aquiring more land and protecting more frogs along with a large reintroduction percentage of what the farm produces and not just sell them to fund Freds bank account and retirement plan than yes I would support that as we all should. There are a bunch of issues involved in this.

Michael


----------



## Dendro Dave

poison beauties said:


> Dave,
> I personally believe none of them should be exporting out of Colombia where many of these frogs are disapearing and I believe noone other than me suggested a nonprofit conseration project to Fred down there with no exporting. There are not enough frogs in the wild to sustain them apparently so why take from the land for any reason other than reintroduction? On the other hand I believe Freds plan is to export so if it is done right and the money is put back into the project for aquiring more land and protecting more frogs along with a large reintroduction percentage of what the farm produces and not just sell them to fund Freds bank account and retirement plan than yes I would support that as we all should. There are a bunch of issues involved in this.
> 
> Michael


Thats cool, I have no argument with any of that. I was just pointing out that the 2 quoted statements were kind of general and contradictory. If we were to take them at face value they would have to include all programs in all countries, Yet you also implied that you would possibly support such programs under some circumstances. Sorry If I was nitpicky  I just thought you might not have realized that and may want to restate your position more clearly.


----------



## poison beauties

fred said:


> Exactly Michael;
> 
> That's why these animals will only be exported to country's where they have there registration or other working systems in order, so the papers can not so easely be used to legalize illegal frogs.
> 
> Country's where you can keep and show around smuggled frogs without any problems, are not and wil not be on my list.
> So for that far my answer to your accusations that i'm doing this for the money. (again, I'm not even talking about prices yet..).
> 
> Best thing would be if those frogs could be offered in different country's around the world, offcourse it wil be a limited number of animals, then they could be bred on by hobbyists to work against the smuggling.
> 
> But offcourse then the controlling system in the country should be sufficient, and no 'wild-west'..
> 
> Well, I think I have been clear enough now, do with the information what you want, but for me it is really been anough now to discuss this any further.
> 
> Goodluck to you all.


The only issue is that the first buyers will probably be breeders, resellers and flippers so it will only be a little time before your frogs make it to all of the countries in which you wish to keep them from. You have no real control once they leave your hands so it matters not who you choose to sell them to.

Michael


----------



## edwardsatc

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Sooo,
> 
> after 3 threads ( 2 of which were locked) 96 pages and over 900 responses- what the hell is the answer?
> I hate to think all this was for nothing.
> 
> Anyway, I would not buy a WC Lehmanni.
> 
> John


 The only answer that this thread has provided is that many folks apparently would rather name call, mud sling, throw around false accusations, or just plain make shit up .... than have a reasonable discussion. After all, he who shouts the loudest and is the best at name calling wins. Right? (note the sarcasm) I lost a good deal of respect for several folks on this board and others just reinforced my lack of respect. 

Anyone notice how nasty this hobby has become lately? Not just on this forum either.


----------



## sbreland

edwardsatc said:


> The only answer that this thread has provided is that many folks apparently would rather name call, mud sling, throw around false accusations, or just plain make shit up .... than have a reasonable discussion. After all, he who shouts the loudest and is the best at name calling wins. Right? (note the sarcasm) I lost a good deal of respect for several folks on this board and others just reinforced my lack of respect.
> 
> Anyone notice how nasty this hobby has become lately? Not just on this forum either.


I'm sure I fit in there somewhere, but whatever, to each his own opinion... I've never been concerned with trying to make everyone happy. I stand by my values and if someone has issues with them then they are just that... their issues, not mine. I am not perfect and I may not be on the right side of every arguement (hint hint... there is never a "right" side, just the side that you believe... unless we're talking about killing dophins for sport for anyone that's seen that email... that's just wrong) but I do stay true to my values and if someone disrespects that then it sounds more like their issue than mine. 

As for the hobby getting nasty... I've always been mystified by this belief that frogging is supposed to be this touchy feely rub each others back and whisper nice things type of hobby. I don't know if you noticed, but this hobby draws from perhaps the most diverse group of people that I've ever seen and to expect them all to be happy massage weilding pacifists is simply a narrow minded view IMO. I think everyone should be who they are... from the hippie to the old grouch to the young athlete to the tattooed and pierced rocker. Everyone is their own person and to expect them all to just fit into the "everybody is nice and loving towards each other in frogging" idea just isn't practical. You have all types of personalities here now and you should expect some conflicts (maybe lots when things like this come up) and each person deals with conflicts differently. Personally I don't have a problem with the debates or the participants (even fred) but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them and just accept my happy shoulder massage.... unless you're a hot blonde female (or brunette, I'm not biased  ) and then massage away


----------



## ChrisK

fred said:


> Chris;
> 
> Maybe you can put some more pictures of the frogs that you're so proudly are helping to exterminate?


Actually yeah, I think I did put some recent tadpole pics in the breeding thread


----------



## Dendro Dave

sbreland said:


> unless you're a hot blonde female (or brunette, I'm not biased  ) and then massage away


Amen brother...Hell I'll even reciprocate


----------



## Ed

markpulawski said:


> I agree smuggling will never end, even with the threat of death. People with little or nothing lose don't fear death..much.


And this is one of the major roots of the smuggling problem in virtually every country... if there isn't a sufficient change in the profit margin starting with the hunter/gatherer/farmer then this isn't going to change the collection nor the smuggling. I find it interesting that there are actual economic demostrations on how it works and how much has to change before smuggling can be reduced. 




markpulawski said:


> But how does this sound?
> Mark's Oophaga Farm, what would my catch phrase be?
> oophaga, it's not just for breakfast anymore
> oophagism...catch it
> 
> OOPHAGISTS...god bless you!


I really like this.


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> Amen brother...Hell I'll even reciprocate


I did notice that he did not discriminate on gender but did discriminate against red heads..or those with allopecia and similar conditions....


----------



## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> I did notice that he did not discriminate on gender but did discriminate against red heads..or those with allopecia and similar conditions....


??? He said females...I meant females. And I don't descrimnate against red heads, black hair, purple, blue, green, pink and anything in between...Now allopecia may not work for me, but pretty is as pretty does....You see?

The End...without a doubt,
Peace Out.
Dave


----------



## sbreland

Ed said:


> I did notice that he did not discriminate on gender but did discriminate against red heads..or those with allopecia and similar conditions....


OH YES I DID DISCRIMINATE ON GENDER!!!  I checked and recheck that one, LOL! Redheads are not bad either... but you gotta draw the line somewhere


----------



## edwardsatc

sbreland said:


> I'm sure I fit in there somewhere, but whatever, to each his own opinion... I've never been concerned with trying to make everyone happy. I stand by my values and if someone has issues with them then they are just that... their issues, not mine. I am not perfect and I may not be on the right side of every arguement (hint hint... there is never a "right" side, just the side that you believe... unless we're talking about killing dophins for sport for anyone that's seen that email... that's just wrong) but I do stay true to my values and if someone disrespects that then it sounds more like their issue than mine.


Hmm ... sticking to ones values ...

Funny, the way i was raised, sticking to our values didn't include calling those that have a different opinion "stupid", "idiot", etc.

Nobody expects the hobby to be touchy feely ... just a bit of respect for differing opinions.


----------



## jubjub47

edwardsatc said:


> Hmm ... sticking to ones values ...
> 
> Funny, the way i was raised, sticking to our values didn't include calling those that have a different opinion "stupid", "idiot", etc.
> 
> Nobody expects the hobby to be touchy feely ... just a bit of respect for differing opinions.


Donn, I think this situation has become it's own monster. I don't believe that name calling occurred in this thread until the participants felt like they were beating their heads into a wall. Even in the other similar threads with the involvement of Fred, you see the same issue. People attempt to have a decent discussion and regardless of the data or opinion, he never changed his one track mind. It's kinda funny, the iphone video that was posted a day or so ago reminds me of a thread with Fred.....


----------



## Ed

sbreland said:


> OH YES I DID DISCRIMINATE ON GENDER!!!  I checked and recheck that one, LOL! Redheads are not bad either... but you gotta draw the line somewhere


Oops my bad....


----------



## sbreland

Ed said:


> Oops my bad....


Damn right your bad  I may be willing to live and let live but my door swings one way


----------



## Ed

I laughed hard enough that koolaid almost shot out my nose.. 
Ed


----------



## fred

Last thing I want to say about it, is that I'm very surprized to see there is not a registration-system in the hobby in the USA; I would have guessed this would be the first place where they have everything in order.

I don't mean to criticize, but the frog-hobby is quite big out there..without a system you can't expect anything else then everybody will just do anything in a disorganized way.

In my opinion every self-respecting hobby needs a system to work with; that's the way to keep much more sight on things like, bloodlines, hybridization, numbers of offspring, illegality, etc.

Very important issues I think.

It has nothing to do with violation of freedom, or 'big brother is watching you' things..just for your own benefit it is a very good thing to organize the hobby; it makes you stronger and gives a weapon against the organizations who want to forbid the keeping of frogs and it wil reduce the number of illegal frogs. 

Well, it's not my busyness further, do with it what you want, have fun burning it down, but remember that at this moment you have no system at all going on.
Goodluck.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Fred,
I think this is about the 5 or 6 time you said you were done here.
I think for the most part everyone else is.
3 weeks of this is enough.

Best of luck to you and everyone else.

John


----------



## markpulawski

Fred TWI is doing just that, they are registering frogs with lineage info trying to keep the gene pool diverse. It has been going on for only 2 or 3 years or so, the USA is a very big place geographically so it makes it very tough to try and tie it all together but it is happening. This is a several year project but it has started.


----------



## Roadrunner

So if all smuggling is the same, why don`t we see any colombian auratus smuggled in, only histos and ranitomeya, etc.?


----------



## Roadrunner

Another question, pertinent to the title of the thread, why would someone buy lehmanni for $750+ when there are banded leucs that look the same and don`t cost near as much. Or histos, when there are much more beautiful frogs out there for a lot less money?
And Mark, to help you answer your question, would you buy a wc Lehmanni if people were to look down at you for it? Or if others didn`t covet them so much, say like narrow band aurotaenia(which also aren`t being smuggled from Colombia).


----------



## ChrisK

frogfarm said:


> Or histos, when there are much more beautiful frogs out there for a lot less money?


Me personally, for some reason I just always liked egg feeders the best and had the best luck with them since back when they were really cheap and not so sought out, I just like the frogs I like no matter how much others want them or how cheap they are, it's just my luck that now they cost a lot more.


----------



## markpulawski

frogfarm said:


> So if all smuggling is the same, why don`t we see any colombian auratus smuggled in, only histos and ranitomeya, etc.?


I would imagine they have come in to Europe, I had some years ago though we were not sure what they were. They would actually look blue sometimes and then green the way the light reflected off of them. There were some coming out of the Keys a few years ago, it would be interesting to know if they are still alive, or anyone was working with their offspring. I know Brad Murray got some a few years back, anyone know if he is still around?


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Another question, pertinent to the title of the thread, why would someone buy lehmanni for $750+ when there are banded leucs that look the same and don`t cost near as much. Or histos, when there are much more beautiful frogs out there for a lot less money?
> And Mark, to help you answer your question, would you buy a wc Lehmanni if people were to look down at you for it? Or if others didn`t covet them so much, say like narrow band aurotaenia(which also aren`t being smuggled from Colombia).


Appearance does not equate to rarity or percieved value which is what drives smuggling. 

quote "Standard economic theory predicts that exploitation alone is unlikely to result in species extinction because of the escalating costs of finding the last individuals of a declining species. We argue that the human predisposition to place exaggerated value on rarity fuels disproportionate exploitation of rare species, rendering them even rarer and thus more desirable, ultimately leading them into an extinction vortex. Here we present a simple mathematical model and various empirical examples to show how the value attributed to rarity in some human activities could precipitate the extinction of rare species—a concept that we term the anthropogenic Allee effect. The alarming finding that human perception of rarity can precipitate species extinction has serious implications for the conservation of species that are rare or that may become so, be they charismatic and emblematic or simply likely to become fashionable for certain activities"endquote 

PLoS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect 

This was well referenced above and there is a lot of literature on it.


----------



## Roadrunner

Ya, but if auratus are the most smuggled frog, you`d expect to see more of them. Maybe it`s harder to get auratus out of Colombia than other countries?


markpulawski said:


> I would imagine they have come in to Europe, I had some years ago though we were not sure what they were. They would actually look blue sometimes and then green the way the light reflected off of them. There were some coming out of the Keys a few years ago, it would be interesting to know if they are still alive, or anyone was working with their offspring. I know Brad Murray got some a few years back, anyone know if he is still around?


----------



## Roadrunner

So human disposition places a greater value on species because of rarity? Isn`t that what Fred was arguing about when saying that hobbyists desire creates the problem?
And I was asking people for their personal opinion, not a study, considering that was their "argument". I don`t want arguments, just opinion on why people here would do it.


Ed said:


> Appearance does not equate to rarity or percieved value which is what drives smuggling.
> 
> quote "Standard economic theory predicts that exploitation alone is unlikely to result in species extinction because of the escalating costs of finding the last individuals of a declining species. We argue that the human predisposition to place exaggerated value on rarity fuels disproportionate exploitation of rare species, rendering them even rarer and thus more desirable, ultimately leading them into an extinction vortex. Here we present a simple mathematical model and various empirical examples to show how the value attributed to rarity in some human activities could precipitate the extinction of rare species—a concept that we term the anthropogenic Allee effect. The alarming finding that human perception of rarity can precipitate species extinction has serious implications for the conservation of species that are rare or that may become so, be they charismatic and emblematic or simply likely to become fashionable for certain activities"endquote
> 
> PLoS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect
> 
> This was well referenced above and there is a lot of literature on it.


----------



## james67

i wouldnt buy WC, but i would buy CB frogs. i agree with chris, egg feeders are just more interesting, i enjoy the challenges that come with egg feeders. they look better (body shape), have more interesting parenting behavior, beautiful coloration, and i wont deny that there is the the allure of the feeling of achievement and status of successfully keeping / breeding an animal that is rare in captivity, that just isnt there with tincs, and leucs. 

james.


----------



## Roadrunner

You should think of that differently, as you have status w/ me for continuing breeding tincs and leucs. The hardest part of breeding leucs and tincs is to continue breeding them(not meaning that they shouldn`t get a rest every once in a while). Most people either get out of the hobby or get rid of them after a while. Not many really have the sticktoitiveness to be able to do that thru boom and bust cycles. So Kudos for that!!


james67 said:


> i wouldnt buy WC, but i would buy CB frogs. i agree with chris, egg feeders are just more interesting, i enjoy the challenges that come with egg feeders. they look better (body shape), have more interesting parenting behavior, beautiful coloration, and i wont deny that there is the the allure of the feeling of achievement and status of successfully keeping / breeding an animal that is rare in captivity, that just isnt there with tincs, and leucs.
> 
> james.


----------



## markpulawski

frogfarm said:


> So human disposition places a greater value on species because of rarity? Isn`t that what Fred was arguing about when saying that hobbyists desire creates the problem?
> And I was asking people for their personal opinion, not a study, considering that was their "argument". I don`t want arguments, just opinion on why people here would do it.


Can't change human nature, most have the dispostion to want what they can't have, at least in this type of case.
If mere beauty were the driving force everyone's collection would include the big metalic green & black Auratus from Costa Rica that came in in droves years ago, they wer some of the nicest and prettiest frogs i have ever seen. Most of us can remember the pairs that Bill Samples brought in in the late 90's, they were the size of big Tincs.


----------



## Roadrunner

I didn`t say I was trying to change human nature. Just making an observation that Fred said exactly what was stated in that study, just w/ different words. I won`t really be making statements much as questions are a little harder to "argue" w/. I don`t want to cause a stir. This thread has gotten civil. Time to ask questions to do some research.
So, the colombian auratus? Considering the most smuggled, why aren`t there any around from there?



markpulawski said:


> Can't change human nature, most have the dispostion to want what they can't have, at least in this type of case.
> If mere beauty were the driving force everyone's collection would include the big metalic green & black Auratus from Costa Rica that came in in droves years ago, they wer some of the nicest and prettiest frogs i have ever seen. Most of us can remember the pairs that Bill Samples brought in in the late 90's, they were the size of big Tincs.


----------



## markpulawski

frogfarm said:


> I didn`t say I was trying to change human nature. Just making an observation that Fred said exactly what was stated in that study, just w/ different words. I won`t really be making statements much as questions are a little harder to "argue" w/. I don`t want to cause a stir. This thread has gotten civil. Time to ask questions to do some research.
> So, the colombian auratus? Considering the most smuggled, why aren`t there any around from there?


My guess would be if you are going to smuggle a frog out of Colombia, would it be a $500 Histo or a $75 Auratus... easy answer.


----------



## Roadrunner

Ya, but other countries they are smuugled out of in droves. I`m trying to find out the difference.
Is there another country that doesn`t have a more sought after species or is it that it`s hard to get them out of Colombia as opposed to other countries they are found in? It seems they have checks in place such that it`s not that easy and only the most expensive animals are smuggled.
If there is a price that they wouldn`t be smuggled under I`d like to know what it is. I already heard of histos(I think a new morph) being very hard to move at $400ea at the last. If you could smuggle 6 auratus and one histo, which are harder to find if they equate the same payoff?
Also, I think there are a LOT more people who would shell out $500/ 6 auratus rather than 1 histo. Payoff would be much better from the auratus if you breed them as the markets a lot bigger. How many people in the country really pay that much for frogs anymore if a new morph of histos is only $400ea.?



markpulawski said:


> My guess would be if you are going to smuggle a frog out of Colombia, would it be a $500 Histo or a $75 Auratus... easy answer.


----------



## lebanik

Personally I would take the Colombian auratus over the histo's/lehmanni any day. You’d be surprised to find people who still like/keep some of the hard to find/rare auratus. 
I wish I could get my hands on some of the auratus morphs that seem to have Disappeared/gotten impossible to find.

Brian


----------



## ChrisK

markpulawski said:


> Can't change human nature, most have the dispostion to want what they can't have, at least in this type of case.
> If mere beauty were the driving force everyone's collection would include the big metalic green & black Auratus from Costa Rica that came in in droves years ago, they wer some of the nicest and prettiest frogs i have ever seen. Most of us can remember the pairs that Bill Samples brought in in the late 90's, they were the size of big Tincs.


Actually one of my favorite non egg feeders are CR auratus


----------



## Roadrunner

What if people were to start posting more success w/ cbing and farming of these animals? 
What if they were only being extirpated from nature and not really going extinct? Could that interfere w/ the "Human Nature(although a lot of people around here don`t seem to have that nature in them, maybe we`re on to something there)" of things? If people knew that they were never really going to be extinct and that a couple hundred a year would be released to a wait list?


----------



## james67

thats what most seem to believe would work best, myself included. if a sustainable # were to be released, perhaps based on wait list or donations, then the animals could have a bright future. 
Scaphiophryne gottlebei are released even though they hold a CR listing. the country of export knows that the best way to combat smuggling is to allow regulated export.

even ICUN suggested that histrionica (listed as a species of least concern) could be harvested for the pet trade.
"It occurs in several protected areas. Management practices that could allow a commercial, sustainable harvest of this species should be investigated. Decree INDERENA No. 39 of 9 July, 1985, forbids the collection of Dendrobates spp. from the wild for breeding (or other) purposes."
http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/55187/0

id be willing to spend / donate $1000ea on legal CB whitefoots

james


----------



## Roadrunner

Mark, do you remember when blue Panama Canal Zone auratus were on the verge of being extinct? Did a lot get collected out and sent out before the habitat was destroyed? Are they still there?


----------



## Roadrunner

Don`t Scaphiophryne gottlebei breed in higher #`s then histos/sylvaticus/lehmanni? Are they seasonal and breed every year?

I`m not too familiar w/ ICUN, I`ll have to check out the link. Thanks.
I`m with you on the legal cb whitefoots.


james67 said:


> thats what most seem to believe would work best, myself included. if a sustainable # were to be released, perhaps based on wait list or donations, then the animals could have a bright future.
> Scaphiophryne gottlebei are released even though they hold a CR listing. the country of export knows that the best way to combat smuggling is to allow regulated export.
> 
> 
> even ICUN suggested that histrionica (listed as a species of least concern) could be harvested for the pet trade.
> "It occurs in several protected areas. Management practices that could allow a commercial, sustainable harvest of this species should be investigated. Decree INDERENA No. 39 of 9 July, 1985, forbids the collection of Dendrobates spp. from the wild for breeding (or other) purposes."
> http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/55187/0
> 
> id be willing to spend / donate $1000ea on legal CB whitefoots
> 
> james


----------



## Ed

Some thoughts for those discussing this... but is should be kept in mind that this article only offers one solution that has not been supported in economic models. 

This is the html version of the file http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/admin/pubFiles/GNH4/15.GNH4.pdf.

Page 1 
Status Symbols, Ecosystems and Sustainability Arthur Fishman 
Abstract Why is it that so many of the consumption goods we value and love are ecologically degrading? From ivory to rice cultivation in semi arid regions, examples abound of goods so highly desired, even when functional substitutes exist, as to generate ecologically unsustainable production levels that lead to extinctions and depletion of precious resources. While the reasons for the high valuation of these goods are complex and manifold, this paper suggests that one factor is a taste for rarity: the rarer an item the more humans will covet it and hence the greater will be its exploitation. Thus these products have become so sought after not in spite of, but precisely because of, their ecologically low supply. The research question This essay addresses the following question: Why is it that so many of the consumption goods we value and love are ecologically degrading? More puzzling, we continue to prize these goods even when adequate substitutes which are less damaging to the environment are available. Recent research suggests that in many cases, tragically, ecologically degrading consumption goods are valued not in spite of their negative ecological impact but precisely because the ecological unsustainability of their consumption. We introduce the concept of rarity value. This refers to an intrinsic value attributed to a good solely on account of its rarity, independently of its functionality or lack thereof. Goods which are ecologically limited in supply are thus more highly sought after. Clearly we expect the price of an item to be higher the rarer it is. This is because rarity increases the cost of acquiring the item. The rarity value thesissays more: it asserts that rarity increases the value of the item and that therefore its price increases by more than the cost of procuring it. In the case of an 'ordinary' good (which has no rarity value), there is a market for the good only as long as the procurement cost is less than the utilitarian value of the good. Also, the intrinsic value of the good to consumers is independentof the procurement cost. Thus the quantity demanded decreases as the procurement cost goes up and once the cost is high enough, demand evaporates. In the case of a good with rarity value, by contrast, each increase in production cost shifts up demand by more than the cost increase; In fact, the item is desirable precisely because it is costly to supply. Thus that no matter how high the production cost, demand never slackens but, to the contrary,increases. This hypothesized effect has been named the Anthropogenic Allee Effect by F. Courchamp et al. (2006). Rarity value and ecological degradation Following Courchamp et al. (2006), we may enumerate several avenues of nature related activities through which rarity value leads to ecological degradation. 
Collecting rare specimens An obvious example of an activity where rarity is valued is that of hobby collections, where the rarest items are the most valued and thus demand the highest prices. As the value of a rare item increases, more time, effort, or resources may be devoted to its acquisition, increasing the pressure on the species as it becomes rarer. 
Paradoxically, legal protection of endangered species, by increasing the price that the rarest species can bring on the collection market, may exacerbate this effect by providing a powerful incentive to poachers and smugglers to hunt and illegally. Scientists have been among these enthusiastic collectors of natural specimens. Following the overexploitation of the great auk, Pinguinus impennis for food and feathers, the species became very rare. As a consequence, these birds became a valuable item for collectors—among them, ornithologists and museum administrators, who were eager to acquire eggs or skins of the rare and soon to be extinct bird, thereby precipitating its extinction [seeCourchamp et al (2006) for relevant references) Even more paradoxically, a recent article suggests that scientific research warning that a species is endangered may itself precipitate a species extinction. Immediately after being described in the scientific literature, the turtle Chelodina mccordi from the small Indonesian island of Roti and the gecko Goniurosaurus luii from southeastern China became recognized as rarities in the international pet trade, and prices in importing countries soared to highs of US$1,500 to US$2,000 each. They became so heavily hunted that today, C. mccordi is nearly extinct in the wild and G.luii is extirpated from its type locality. The declaration of a species as endangered by a conservation organization provides official proof that the species is rare and therefore more valuable. Hence,paradoxically, declaring a species endangered may accelerate its extinction.Trophy hunting represents another form of collection. In the past,trophies were valued as a sign of manhood and virility, because strength and courage were required to kill them. Nowadays,however, prestige has shifted from dangerous to rare animals; since rarer species are harder to find, greater wealth is required to kill them, and greater prestige is gained by killing them. 

Luxery Items
This is perhaps the most perfidious of them all. Thorstein Veblenis famous for coining the concept of conspicuous consumption. This refers to consumption for the sole purpose of displaying wealth and/or social status and its origin is probably rooted in the evolutionary urge to attract females. Especially deplorable examples in the ecological context includes the consumption of rare species as luxury food items. When closing deals, wealthy Asian businessmen wishing to display their affluence will pay large amounts of money to eat a plate of lips of a large Napoleon wrasse, Cheilinus undulatus (a single pair of lips costs US$250). By the mid 1990s, Napoleon wrasse became the most sought-after reef fish in the world, and is currently number one on the ‘‘top ten most-wanted species’’ list published by the World Wide Fund for Nature. Populations in South East Asia are now extinct on many reefs, and very few large individuals survive in the remaining fragmented populations (see Courchamp et al (2006) for relevant references).Many other species are likely to be vulnerable due to the demand for other types of luxury items, such as exotic woods, furs, turtle shells, snake and crocodile skins, and so on. One celebrated – albeit hypothetical – historical example of luxury consumption which has been credited with bringing down an entire civilization is the story of Easter island. This island was completely deforested of indigenous palm trees, which were used to roll and transport stone from quarries at the centre of island to erect huge moai statues, which apparently were erected as symbols of status and power for by the wealthy and powerful. Thiseventually led to the complete deforestation of the island, which inturn is credited with leading to mass starvation, cannibalism, the decimation of most of the population and complete societal collapse. Jared Diamond in his book Collapse poses the question:"Who cut down the last palm tree?"; that is, why didn't deforestation stop when it became apparent that these practices were unsustainable? In light of our discussion, we can answer that precisely as deforestation progressed and tress became increasingly rare, the prestige value and hence the demand for new maoi statues increased, which accelerated, rather than retarded deforestation and eventual collapse. The dramatic decline of sturgeon populations, exploited for their caviar, is another sad example: most species are threatened and the most coveted are on the verge of extinction. The overexploitation continues unabated despite caviar’s ever-increasing price and the imminent loss of these species continued overexploitation of sturgeon species (Pala, 2005), Pikitch et al(2005), Stone, 2002, Stone, 2005). This phenomenon is consistent with the rarity value thesis: Demand for caviar has not decline, butincreased as sturgeon has become rarer. Gault, Meinard & Courchamp (2008) conducted an interesting experiment to further confirm this. In that experiment caviar from identical cans was placed in identical turins at a prestigious cocktail party. One turin of caviar was labelled 'rare', the otherwas labeled 'common'. Subjects overwhelmingly preferred thecaviar labeled rare, although the caviar in both was turins was identical in every other respect. Abalones, of which six species suffer from overfishing on thePacific coast of North America, are another illustration.Considered a delicacy in California, white abalones, the rarest ofthe six abalone species, have declined by over 99.99% due to increasing overfishing, in part illegal (the fishery was closed in1996), while at the same time, prices have escalated. Although white abalones were the first marine invertebrate on the UnitedStates endangered species list in 2001, this species could become extinct within a decade unless extraordinary recovery measure sare implemented (see Courchamp et al (2006) for relevant references) Another example is blue fin tuna. The population of blue fin tuna,coveted for Sushi, is on the verge of collapse. Jacob Lowenstein of Columbia University has been sampling New York restaurants to test whether tuna claimed to be blue fin is indeed so. He has found that other types of tuna are often falsely claimed to be blue fin,showing that consumers attach a value to it despite being unable to recognize it. He also finds that this kind of deception is less frequent in high end restaurants than in lower end restaurants. 
EcotourismThis activity provides another source for the feedback loop between rarity and increased demand. Ecotourism ventures have expanded greatly in recent years, with the public increasingly wanting to experience closeness to natural ecosystems or species.Such activities often involve encountering and/or observing rare species. Given that some ecotourism activities have been shown to generate disturbances that are detrimental to the fitness ofobserved species we can assume that rare species, especially those that are charismatic, will be disproportionately impacted upon by ecotourism. Technology and entrenched taste for rarity Often, environmental sustainability relies on “substitution” of natural goods by man-made or natural alternatives. But when rarity raises value, even perfect artificial substitutes may fail to decrease pressure of the environment. For example, in the past ecological limits turned some consumption goods into status symbols in certain regions. Until modern times, these goods could only be produced by traditional technologies that were dominated by natural conditions. Rice could not be cultivated where rainfall was deficient. Elephants could not be hunted on a massive scale. This very fact could makea product rare and thus assume the nature of a status symbol – aproduct reserved for elites - in traditional societies and cultures. When new exploitative, unsustainable means of production were introduced, they were adopted on scale to meet the high demand that persisted simply as a result of their past rarity and status symbol legacy, not necessarily because of intrinsically valuable functionality, thus leading to ecological degradation of entire ecosystems and species. For example, high power rifles became available for the hunting of elephants. Tube wells were drilled to irrigate rice fields. Demand may have also increased due to rising incomes. The high psychological valuation of these products, rooted in long-standing perception as a status symbol, became engrained into cultural norms, and was slower to adapt to changing supply as compared to the rate of introduction of exploitative technologies. As a result,production was increased, far exceeding natural rates, and at a cost to ecological stability and in an unsustainable manner. Elephant populations could not withstand massive hunting.Groundwater resources could not recharge fast enough to meet extraction rates and became depleted. As an example, consider the cultivation of water-intensive rice in Semi-Arid regions of India (e.g. Telangana). Because of the lack of water, rice was not traditionally grown in these areas. After the introduction of tube wells, rice cultivation grew dramatically,traditional crops were neglected, and groundwater aquifers were depleted. The seemingly stubborn insistence on the continued cultivation of rice and failure to substitute less water intensive grains may thus have its roots in the status role played by rice before tube well technology was introduced. 
Conclusion The above discussion suggests that market forces can not remedy these problems; indeed market forces maybe at their root. What is needed is a change of attitude, a change of consciousness. Rarity value is rooted in the entrenched perception that consumption ofecologically endangered species and products as symbols of 
status. To combat this, a new perception of status must evolve.Education must be targeted to foster the perception of such activities as a badge of shame, not of prestige. A new perception of status must evolve, which rather than glorifying wasteful consumption, honours the conservation, care and nurture of ourplanet and its ecology.

ReferencesAgnès G, Y Meinard & F Courchamp (2008). Less is more: raritytrumps quality in luxury markets. Nature Proceedings:hdl:10101/npre. 1690.1Courchamp, F. et al (2006). Rarity value and species extinction:The Anthropogenic Allee Effect. PLoS Biology 4, e415, 2405-2410.Diamond Jared (2005). Collapse: How societies choose to succeed or fail.New York: Viking Press. Lowenstein, Jacob, personal correspondencePala, C., (2005). Endangered species: ban on beluga caviar pointsto sturgeon's worldwide decline'. Science 310, 37 Pikitch, E. K. et al. (2005). Status, trend and management ofsturgeon and paddlefish fisheries. Fish and Fisheries 6, 233-265 Stone, R. (2002). Central Asia: Caspian ecology teeters on thebrink. Science 295, 430-433Stone, R. (2005). Science in Iran: the sturgeon's last stand. Science309, 1806
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Roadrunner

Wow, that conclusion seems familiar, where did I hear that before? Did someone say that earlier in this thread?




Ed said:


> Some thoughts for those discussing this... but is should be kept in mind that this article only offers one solution that has not been supported in economic models.
> 
> This is the html version of the file http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/admin/pubFiles/GNH4/15.GNH4.pdf.
> 
> Page 1
> Status Symbols, Ecosystems and Sustainability Arthur Fishman
> Abstract Why is it that so many of the consumption goods we value and love are ecologically degrading? From ivory to rice cultivation in semi arid regions, examples abound of goods so highly desired, even when functional substitutes exist, as to generate ecologically unsustainable production levels that lead to extinctions and depletion of precious resources. While the reasons for the high valuation of these goods are complex and manifold, this paper suggests that one factor is a taste for rarity: the rarer an item the more humans will covet it and hence the greater will be its exploitation. Thus these products have become so sought after not in spite of, but precisely because of, their ecologically low supply. The research question This essay addresses the following question: Why is it that so many of the consumption goods we value and love are ecologically degrading? More puzzling, we continue to prize these goods even when adequate substitutes which are less damaging to the environment are available. Recent research suggests that in many cases, tragically, ecologically degrading consumption goods are valued not in spite of their negative ecological impact but precisely because the ecological unsustainability of their consumption. We introduce the concept of rarity value. This refers to an intrinsic value attributed to a good solely on account of its rarity, independently of its functionality or lack thereof. Goods which are ecologically limited in supply are thus more highly sought after. Clearly we expect the price of an item to be higher the rarer it is. This is because rarity increases the cost of acquiring the item. The rarity value thesissays more: it asserts that rarity increases the value of the item and that therefore its price increases by more than the cost of procuring it. In the case of an 'ordinary' good (which has no rarity value), there is a market for the good only as long as the procurement cost is less than the utilitarian value of the good. Also, the intrinsic value of the good to consumers is independentof the procurement cost. Thus the quantity demanded decreases as the procurement cost goes up and once the cost is high enough, demand evaporates. In the case of a good with rarity value, by contrast, each increase in production cost shifts up demand by more than the cost increase; In fact, the item is desirable precisely because it is costly to supply. Thus that no matter how high the production cost, demand never slackens but, to the contrary,increases. This hypothesized effect has been named the Anthropogenic Allee Effect by F. Courchamp et al. (2006). Rarity value and ecological degradation Following Courchamp et al. (2006), we may enumerate several avenues of nature related activities through which rarity value leads to ecological degradation.
> Collecting rare specimens An obvious example of an activity where rarity is valued is that of hobby collections, where the rarest items are the most valued and thus demand the highest prices. As the value of a rare item increases, more time, effort, or resources may be devoted to its acquisition, increasing the pressure on the species as it becomes rarer.
> Paradoxically, legal protection of endangered species, by increasing the price that the rarest species can bring on the collection market, may exacerbate this effect by providing a powerful incentive to poachers and smugglers to hunt and illegally. Scientists have been among these enthusiastic collectors of natural specimens. Following the overexploitation of the great auk, Pinguinus impennis for food and feathers, the species became very rare. As a consequence, these birds became a valuable item for collectors—among them, ornithologists and museum administrators, who were eager to acquire eggs or skins of the rare and soon to be extinct bird, thereby precipitating its extinction [seeCourchamp et al (2006) for relevant references) Even more paradoxically, a recent article suggests that scientific research warning that a species is endangered may itself precipitate a species extinction. Immediately after being described in the scientific literature, the turtle Chelodina mccordi from the small Indonesian island of Roti and the gecko Goniurosaurus luii from southeastern China became recognized as rarities in the international pet trade, and prices in importing countries soared to highs of US$1,500 to US$2,000 each. They became so heavily hunted that today, C. mccordi is nearly extinct in the wild and G.luii is extirpated from its type locality. The declaration of a species as endangered by a conservation organization provides official proof that the species is rare and therefore more valuable. Hence,paradoxically, declaring a species endangered may accelerate its extinction.Trophy hunting represents another form of collection. In the past,trophies were valued as a sign of manhood and virility, because strength and courage were required to kill them. Nowadays,however, prestige has shifted from dangerous to rare animals; since rarer species are harder to find, greater wealth is required to kill them, and greater prestige is gained by killing them.
> 
> Luxery Items
> This is perhaps the most perfidious of them all. Thorstein Veblenis famous for coining the concept of conspicuous consumption. This refers to consumption for the sole purpose of displaying wealth and/or social status and its origin is probably rooted in the evolutionary urge to attract females. Especially deplorable examples in the ecological context includes the consumption of rare species as luxury food items. When closing deals, wealthy Asian businessmen wishing to display their affluence will pay large amounts of money to eat a plate of lips of a large Napoleon wrasse, Cheilinus undulatus (a single pair of lips costs US$250). By the mid 1990s, Napoleon wrasse became the most sought-after reef fish in the world, and is currently number one on the ‘‘top ten most-wanted species’’ list published by the World Wide Fund for Nature. Populations in South East Asia are now extinct on many reefs, and very few large individuals survive in the remaining fragmented populations (see Courchamp et al (2006) for relevant references).Many other species are likely to be vulnerable due to the demand for other types of luxury items, such as exotic woods, furs, turtle shells, snake and crocodile skins, and so on. One celebrated – albeit hypothetical – historical example of luxury consumption which has been credited with bringing down an entire civilization is the story of Easter island. This island was completely deforested of indigenous palm trees, which were used to roll and transport stone from quarries at the centre of island to erect huge moai statues, which apparently were erected as symbols of status and power for by the wealthy and powerful. Thiseventually led to the complete deforestation of the island, which inturn is credited with leading to mass starvation, cannibalism, the decimation of most of the population and complete societal collapse. Jared Diamond in his book Collapse poses the question:"Who cut down the last palm tree?"; that is, why didn't deforestation stop when it became apparent that these practices were unsustainable? In light of our discussion, we can answer that precisely as deforestation progressed and tress became increasingly rare, the prestige value and hence the demand for new maoi statues increased, which accelerated, rather than retarded deforestation and eventual collapse. The dramatic decline of sturgeon populations, exploited for their caviar, is another sad example: most species are threatened and the most coveted are on the verge of extinction. The overexploitation continues unabated despite caviar’s ever-increasing price and the imminent loss of these species continued overexploitation of sturgeon species (Pala, 2005), Pikitch et al(2005), Stone, 2002, Stone, 2005). This phenomenon is consistent with the rarity value thesis: Demand for caviar has not decline, butincreased as sturgeon has become rarer. Gault, Meinard & Courchamp (2008) conducted an interesting experiment to further confirm this. In that experiment caviar from identical cans was placed in identical turins at a prestigious cocktail party. One turin of caviar was labelled 'rare', the otherwas labeled 'common'. Subjects overwhelmingly preferred thecaviar labeled rare, although the caviar in both was turins was identical in every other respect. Abalones, of which six species suffer from overfishing on thePacific coast of North America, are another illustration.Considered a delicacy in California, white abalones, the rarest ofthe six abalone species, have declined by over 99.99% due to increasing overfishing, in part illegal (the fishery was closed in1996), while at the same time, prices have escalated. Although white abalones were the first marine invertebrate on the UnitedStates endangered species list in 2001, this species could become extinct within a decade unless extraordinary recovery measure sare implemented (see Courchamp et al (2006) for relevant references) Another example is blue fin tuna. The population of blue fin tuna,coveted for Sushi, is on the verge of collapse. Jacob Lowenstein of Columbia University has been sampling New York restaurants to test whether tuna claimed to be blue fin is indeed so. He has found that other types of tuna are often falsely claimed to be blue fin,showing that consumers attach a value to it despite being unable to recognize it. He also finds that this kind of deception is less frequent in high end restaurants than in lower end restaurants.
> EcotourismThis activity provides another source for the feedback loop between rarity and increased demand. Ecotourism ventures have expanded greatly in recent years, with the public increasingly wanting to experience closeness to natural ecosystems or species.Such activities often involve encountering and/or observing rare species. Given that some ecotourism activities have been shown to generate disturbances that are detrimental to the fitness ofobserved species we can assume that rare species, especially those that are charismatic, will be disproportionately impacted upon by ecotourism. Technology and entrenched taste for rarity Often, environmental sustainability relies on “substitution” of natural goods by man-made or natural alternatives. But when rarity raises value, even perfect artificial substitutes may fail to decrease pressure of the environment. For example, in the past ecological limits turned some consumption goods into status symbols in certain regions. Until modern times, these goods could only be produced by traditional technologies that were dominated by natural conditions. Rice could not be cultivated where rainfall was deficient. Elephants could not be hunted on a massive scale. This very fact could makea product rare and thus assume the nature of a status symbol – aproduct reserved for elites - in traditional societies and cultures. When new exploitative, unsustainable means of production were introduced, they were adopted on scale to meet the high demand that persisted simply as a result of their past rarity and status symbol legacy, not necessarily because of intrinsically valuable functionality, thus leading to ecological degradation of entire ecosystems and species. For example, high power rifles became available for the hunting of elephants. Tube wells were drilled to irrigate rice fields. Demand may have also increased due to rising incomes. The high psychological valuation of these products, rooted in long-standing perception as a status symbol, became engrained into cultural norms, and was slower to adapt to changing supply as compared to the rate of introduction of exploitative technologies. As a result,production was increased, far exceeding natural rates, and at a cost to ecological stability and in an unsustainable manner. Elephant populations could not withstand massive hunting.Groundwater resources could not recharge fast enough to meet extraction rates and became depleted. As an example, consider the cultivation of water-intensive rice in Semi-Arid regions of India (e.g. Telangana). Because of the lack of water, rice was not traditionally grown in these areas. After the introduction of tube wells, rice cultivation grew dramatically,traditional crops were neglected, and groundwater aquifers were depleted. The seemingly stubborn insistence on the continued cultivation of rice and failure to substitute less water intensive grains may thus have its roots in the status role played by rice before tube well technology was introduced.
> Conclusion The above discussion suggests that market forces can not remedy these problems; indeed market forces maybe at their root. What is needed is a change of attitude, a change of consciousness. Rarity value is rooted in the entrenched perception that consumption ofecologically endangered species and products as symbols of
> status. To combat this, a new perception of status must evolve.Education must be targeted to foster the perception of such activities as a badge of shame, not of prestige. A new perception of status must evolve, which rather than glorifying wasteful consumption, honours the conservation, care and nurture of ourplanet and its ecology.
> 
> ReferencesAgnès G, Y Meinard & F Courchamp (2008). Less is more: raritytrumps quality in luxury markets. Nature Proceedings:hdl:10101/npre. 1690.1Courchamp, F. et al (2006). Rarity value and species extinction:The Anthropogenic Allee Effect. PLoS Biology 4, e415, 2405-2410.Diamond Jared (2005). Collapse: How societies choose to succeed or fail.New York: Viking Press. Lowenstein, Jacob, personal correspondencePala, C., (2005). Endangered species: ban on beluga caviar pointsto sturgeon's worldwide decline'. Science 310, 37 Pikitch, E. K. et al. (2005). Status, trend and management ofsturgeon and paddlefish fisheries. Fish and Fisheries 6, 233-265 Stone, R. (2002). Central Asia: Caspian ecology teeters on thebrink. Science 295, 430-433Stone, R. (2005). Science in Iran: the sturgeon's last stand. Science309, 1806
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Ed

If one ignores quote "Some thoughts for those discussing this... but is should be kept in mind that this article only offers one solution that has not been supported in economic models."endquote.


----------



## markpulawski

frogfarm said:


> Mark, do you remember when blue Panama Canal Zone auratus were on the verge of being extinct? Did a lot get collected out and sent out before the habitat was destroyed? Are they still there?


Yes i do remember it being said that the blue Auratus "are likely gone in their original habitat by now", they were so rare here. I remember the first ones being imported as cb from Germany, some were very pretty and some were an ugly gray/blue. 
I would say there are least 2 other distinct populations of blue Auratus but I could not tell you what the disposition of the original one we all knew is today. There were quite a few of that one bred, and i know at least Saurian is still breeding that blue variety, I know Pat got one of the new morphs of blue as well, I am sure he has kept them seperate.


----------



## Ed

markpulawski said:


> Yes i do remember it being said that the blue Auratus "are likely gone in their original habitat by now", they were so rare here. I remember the first ones being imported as cb from Germany, some were very pretty and some were an ugly gray/blue.
> I would say there are least 2 other distinct populations of blue Auratus but I could not tell you what the disposition of the original one we all knew is today. There were quite a few of that one bred, and i know at least Saurian is still breeding that blue variety, I know Pat got one of the new morphs of blue as well, I am sure he has kept them seperate.


Mike Shrom may remember some more details on this topic. I had a brief conversation with him over it years ago but don't remember the details well enough off hand to reference them. 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

I`m ok w/ that, thanks for the link Ed.
If it is status that drives some people then this should deter at least that segment and every little bit helps. If it is a very small percentage that pays those prices and they drop off it will start to lessen shipments coming in to where some people will stop carrying them(Ive already seen this work w/ one individual). This is probably due to the poor economic climate but they do stop when they can`t make much money and are worried about loosing more animals as they sit. Sometimes taking just a week longer to move them will stop some people. I know as I talk to them personally. So, I realize the education won`t work if the economic model overpowers it as I`ve also got into arguments w/ these people and they will rationalize if they are making a lot of money. So the education and economic models are very closely related. The education can break the economics by reducing demand but the economic model can overpower the education if it`s that lucrative. There is a tipping point where, if even making money, it`s not enough for the reputation they loose from a segment of the hobby.

If Colombia starts to support that economic model then this will already be in place and may do better then if it`s not done. Maybe we can`t(of course we can`t totally) stop smuggling but every little bit helps.



Ed said:


> If one ignores quote "Some thoughts for those discussing this... but is should be kept in mind that this article only offers one solution that has not been supported in economic models."endquote.


----------



## Ed

I am sure the current economics are helping in some respect as there is less free cash that can be used for "luxury" items. 

Ed


----------



## fred

Just put this reaction on the thread about 'A PRETTY BIG HISTRIONICA CLUTCH', cause I think it is very shamefull to make fun out of illegal shipments..
I don't understand that hobbyists on this forum allow this kind of things here; your hobby is being put to shame openly, and allmost nobody has the nerves to say anything about it..
Copied it here, because it probably will be removed:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was not planning to react here anymore, and I wouldn't, but I see my name is being used, so I think I have the right to say something about it.

First; I'm not gone forever, and I'm not giving up the battle against smuggling.

Second; I would be proud, and offcourse I like to see the little frog coming out of the water (nice pictures by the way), if there where no dark clouds hanging above the extraction of where these frogs are coming from and what's the result of it in nature..

Chris, how can a right-minded hobbyist make this kind of comments? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Thanks, yeah we gotta get that international shipping network going' 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Is very sad and a shame for this hobby.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


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## ChrisK

fred said:


> Just put this reaction on the thread about 'A PRETTY BIG HISTRIONICA CLUTCH', cause I think it is very shamefull to make fun out of illegal shipments..
> I don't understand that hobbyists on this forum allow this kind of things here; your hobby is being put to shame openly, and allmost nobody has the nerves to say anything about it..
> Copied it here, because it probably will be removed:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I was not planning to react here anymore, and I wouldn't, but I see my name is being used, so I think I have the right to say something about it.
> 
> First; I'm not gone forever, and I'm not giving up the battle against smuggling.
> 
> Second; I would be proud, and offcourse I like to see the little frog coming out of the water (nice pictures by the way), if there where no dark clouds hanging above the extraction of where these frogs are coming from and what's the result of it in nature..
> 
> Chris, how can a right-minded hobbyist make this kind of comments?
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 'Thanks, yeah we gotta get that international shipping network going'
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Is very sad and a shame for this hobby.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------


fred, as usual, you're talking without knowing what you're talking about, Marcus and I were speaking somewhere else about getting a network of people with shipping permits and paperwork in contact with each other in the EU and US so that shipping frogs between the two continents would be less painstaking, and we all know that you're trying to set up your monopoly, but do me a favor and stop slandering me while you post pictures of the same frogs in mixed enclosures


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> Just put this reaction on the thread about 'A PRETTY BIG HISTRIONICA CLUTCH', cause I think it is very shamefull to make fun out of illegal shipments..
> I don't understand that hobbyists on this forum allow this kind of things here; your hobby is being put to shame openly, and allmost nobody has the nerves to say anything about it..
> Copied it here, because it probably will be removed:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I was not planning to react here anymore, and I wouldn't, but I see my name is being used, so I think I have the right to say something about it.
> 
> First; I'm not gone forever, and I'm not giving up the battle against smuggling.
> 
> Second; I would be proud, and offcourse I like to see the little frog coming out of the water (nice pictures by the way), if there where no dark clouds hanging above the extraction of where these frogs are coming from and what's the result of it in nature..
> 
> Chris, how can a right-minded hobbyist make this kind of comments?
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 'Thanks, yeah we gotta get that international shipping network going'
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Is very sad and a shame for this hobby.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------



Fred perhaps you should ask the gentleman about the details of how he aquired these, the country of origin in europe and the paper work involved before making an accusation. Having said that though I do have some concerns and did read that thread and also the thread by mworks http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/51694-my-new-histrionicus-3.html

And saw that it seems some have been shipped here possibly to DB members some came in doa and others loaded with parasites...that is circumstantial evidence for WC frogs in my mind. Then there is the possible issue of the host country never allowing these frogs outside there borders for sale to the general public. Is that the case with this morph? I'm not sure. If there are legal hists there that are now being used to grandfather in old illegal frogs or new smuggled frogs then maybe we should be concerned about these making their way here and people posting them on the board. 

Even if the paper work is legal between here and the EU do we really want to condone this if the founder stock was initially smuggled? I mean its to late for red galacts and some others here, hell I have 4 red galacts right now...but we should be able to prevent such things from occurring in the future, or we can at least discourage it. I'd love to see histrionica in the hobby but not at the costs of opening the flood gates for smuggled frogs from the EU. If these frogs originated from Germany I'd be even more concerned since it is my understanding is its pretty much anything goes over there in the frog world. Should we be boycotting frogs from Germany? ...or other countries?

If we can't be a 100% that these are legally obtained wc, or legal cb offspring from legally obtained wc parents should we really be encouraging the import of these frogs from the EU and condoning people posting them here? Something to think about...

So basically while I'm not accusing Chris of anything, I frankly don't have the background knowledge on the animals or their legal status to know much one way or the other but if Chris and others would be so good to enlighten us on the origins of these frogs and some of the legal issues around them or point me and other interested people to that info then that would be much appreciated I think. I mean are these frogs in a grey area? are they illegal or not? I'd really like a definitive answer if there is one.

Where as a hobby have we decided to draw the line? Are we saying as long as there are papers between here and the EU that the frogs are fine regardless if they were smuggled into the EU or are offspring from smuggled frogs? Or are we still deciding that? I mean I know the general stance on hybrids, mixing species and morphs and all that but I'm not really sure what it is on frogs in that situation. Can anyone tell me? Is Fred right at least about some of us turning to much of a blind eye to these imports from the EU?


----------



## ChrisK

Red head histrionicus were legally exported and bred many times, and as I already said in another thread when people wanted to know where I got the frogs, other than saying that they are legal, I would not subject any breeders to the type of witch hunt I was subjected to, sorry.


----------



## fred

Chris, here's one of your other 'jokes' (permalink 429):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
' Yeah back to the REAL business - fred, my sister is in bocas del toro right now doing marine life research, she said she would make the hour flight down there to you to pick up the group of WC lehmanni you're holding for me, she'll ask for fred the Dutchman at the zoo.......
Reply With Quote'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This shows how much you care about it.

You know as well as I do that these frogs are as illegal they can be.

For me it's really incredible that other hobbyists on this forum accept this and put up with it; their hobby is being ruined, put to shame, and the chance on real legal frogs being spoiled.

Hi Dave; 

My excuses for being a little rude here, but I allready asked him before a few times, and offcourse he can't give that information, though he can make fun of it.
And it is not a very nice thing; frogs being wiped out because of hobbyists..

Meanwhile I received more information that there are a lot more people overthere who bought these frogs from Germany and also other morphs.

Looks like the people who are telling me this are affraid to bring it in the open..
I can't do it for them, gave my word on it.

So time for other hobbyists to stand up against it and clear up this situation.
Don't accept it; is your hobby what goes down the drain because of a minority.


----------



## Dendro Dave

ChrisK said:


> Red head histrionicus were legally exported and bred many times, and as I already said in another thread when people wanted to know where I got the frogs, other than saying that they are legal, I would not subject any breeders to the type of witch hunt I was subjected to, sorry.


Would you at least tell us the country they were imported from Chris? If I missed it in another thread I apologize, feel free to link me to that thread. 

This is not directed solely at Chris... To the USA or EU, or both? Recently? What are the chances that these frogs are from past legal exports from several years ago and weren't recently smuggled, or the offspring from recently smuggled animals? 

Hopefully Chris you don't feel I'm conducting a witch hunt. But by posting the frogs here, frogs that some are unsure of the legality of here or in the EU you have tacitly opened yourself up for questioning. Also a reluctance to give many details even given the very understanble reason of not wanting to subject other breeders to a witch hunt may make some people wonder. You of course have every right not to give out details for whatever reasons. There are certainly valid reasons not to, and also shady ones.

We only have your word and the word of anyone else posting such frogs with a reluctance to give details that its all on the up and up. That doesn't give people much of a chance to form their own opinion. Anyone posting such frogs should expect questions and should understand that. I'm not saying you don't specifically, I'm just throwing that out there for everyone, especially people who may make such posts in the future.

I honestly don't know enough about you or all this to say or make the determination "Ya Chris is a good guy, his frogs are 100% legal" or "oh I don't know about him, and his frogs seem kinda questionable to me, or oh they are definately Illegal!". I'm asking questions to learn, and also to gauge the hobby's general stance on this issue. What frogs are ok, which ones and under what circumstance are they questionable? Or in a grey area...and where are we drawing the line and saying "Illegal...bad bad, shame on you!"???

Beyond the other reasons stated I'm also asking these things as an example because I feel its what Fred should have done and what others should do in the future before making an outright accusation. 

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## fred

Hi Dave, 

I just checked out the link you referred to: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/mem...ionicus-3.html , and indeed, this person also sold 'lita's', 'whitefoot', and more.., also other species like granuliferus..but he is not the only one doing it.

They can't sell them to Holland and Belgium anymore, so now they probably found a market in the US, or maybe this is allready going on for a longer time..

Meanwhile people here donate money to conservation-programs; isn't that something like bring water to the ocean..?


----------



## ChrisK

I feel the circle talk coming on again............................

You keep posting the same things time and time again.

You keep SPECULATING, and accusing people of owning illegal frogs without knowing any facts, which "may" (<---- SPECULATION) be part of your plan to create your legal histrionicus export monopoly that you were talking about, in other words "Shun any histrionicus owners!" later, "Look, I'm selling the only legal histrionicus in the world!!!!!!"

In case you didn't realize, Kyle stated a rule about not accusing people of owning illegal frogs, especially without proof.

Again, Red head (and MANY MANY other morphs) histrionicus were LEGALLY exported in the past and BRED many times, just because you don't know about all the instances (or choose to hide them or accuse them as part of your monopoly plan) doesn't mean it's not a reality. Search more if you're interested, you'll find instances of f2 (and possibly further) histrionicus.

Also, you really should stop insulting this site and it's members with all your "shameful" comments and you that can't believe what people post on here.


----------



## ChrisK

Dave, that post above is directed at fred, but like I said before I'm not going to be giving out any breeders' info, location, phone number  etc, not only for the witch hunt possibility but if they wanted to be publicly hounded they would post their frogs for sale publicly. Plenty of times I was offered frogs and asked to keep it to myself because "I don't need a million PMs or emails from people asking me for these frogs", you get the idea.

If people are going to be freaking out about frogs that were legally exported and bred, they really should be paying MORE attention to frogs that were NEVER legally exported, like galacts, BYHs, quins, castis, etc, and trying to trace where THOSE frogs came from, right?


----------



## fred

Chris,

If that's so, why is it such a problem then to show your papers or tell the people here (for sure also nature-protection organizations are reading this) where you got your frogs from?

By the way; the frogs I was showing on the pictures in the thread 'MAKING FAKE ROCKS', are c.b. offspring from confiscated frogs, being bred in a conservation-program.
The expo was about nature-protection in Colombia, and to educate people about what is going on.

And don't worry about legal frogs coming to your country, cause first you need to have a good working system overthere that clearly separates legal from illegal and this kind of practices are not possible anymore.

Just missed your last mail: about these people with their 'mailing-lists' (I allready mentioned before there are this kind of lists going around), don't want you to talk about it not because they don't want to sell their frogs or whatever, but because of other reasons..they have something to hide, and we all know what it is.
If they would have bred these frogs, they would have been proud on it, like you.

Because you're in the open with it, is the only thing that give me doubts about if you really know about the real origin of your frogs or not.

I can imagine that maybe you don't know about it, this could be because you don't have a lot of experience in this matter, or you just don't want to know it, maybe.


----------



## ChrisK

fred, I realize English is not your native language, so maybe you need to re-read what I keep saying, how I'm not going to send personal legal papers to strangers on an online forum, how I'm not going to subject others to witch hunts etc, how many times does it need repeating? Why don't you attack people with DEFINITE illegal frogs? Monopoly? How is that legal histrionicus export plan of yours coming along by the way?


----------



## Dendro Dave

ChrisK said:


> You keep SPECULATING, and accusing people of owning illegal frogs without knowing any facts, which "may" (<---- SPECULATION) be part of your plan to create your legal histrionicus export monopoly that you were talking about, in other words "Shun any histrionicus owners!" later, "Look, I'm selling the only legal histrionicus in the world!!!!!!"


 I would just point out here that a reluctance to give details by people posting such frogs does nothing to discourage speculation, and whether it is right or wrong to speculate in the absence of details, it is human nature and should be expected.



ChrisK said:


> In case you didn't realize, Kyle stated a rule about not accusing people of owning illegal frogs, especially without proof.


 I my opinion Fred went beyond speculating that these frogs might be illegal which I think should be allowed and basically made an outright accusation which I don't think should be allowed at least not with out some decent proof.



ChrisK said:


> Again, Red head (and MANY MANY other morphs) histrionicus were LEGALLY exported in the past and BRED many times, just because you don't know about all the instances (or choose to hide them or accuse them as part of your monopoly plan) doesn't mean it's not a reality. Search more if you're interested, you'll find instances of f2 (and possibly further) histrionicus.


 I am aware that many of these species came into the USA legally many years ago but I am under the impression that there is only a handful of them still alive and breeding. It would also be kinda suspect for a several of them to all pop up newly acquired by several different people all at roughly the same time. 

I'm also unsure whether or not that should have any bearing if frogs from the EU were smuggled to there before they or their offspring came here. Seems to be a pretty ethically grey area using past legal usa frogs to cover or justify potentially illegal EU frogs even if the paper work between the EU and here is legit. I'm still trying to figure out if as a hobby we are ok with this in general?



ChrisK said:


> Dave, that post above is directed at fred, but like I said before I'm not going to be giving out any breeders' info, location, phone number  etc, not only for the witch hunt possibility but if they wanted to be publicly hounded they would post their frogs for sale publicly. Plenty of times I was offered frogs and asked to keep it to myself because "I don't need a million PMs or emails from people asking me for these frogs", you get the idea.


 I sympathize as I have had some rarer animals in my collection such as darklands, golden and blushing mantella and got some of the first black bassleri imports when they were all still hard to get. I don't really understand the harm in divulging the country of origin though. As for the other details that makes more sense, but still when its in regards to frogs with questionable origins its makes it hard for people not to wonder.




ChrisK said:


> If people are going to be freaking out about frogs that were legally exported and bred, they really should be paying MORE attention to frogs that were NEVER legally exported, like galacts, BYHs, quins, castis, etc, and trying to trace where THOSE frogs came from, right?


 My opinion here, and I think it is essentially the consensus in the hobby is that happened so long ago and they are here now in such numbers there is no going back, there is no way all those people are just going to turn their frogs over or put them down if they don't have to. I however am not ok with how they got into the hobby but given the time passed and their prolification I feel we are past the point where owning them condones such things. 

I guess I'm wondering now is are we at that point with some of the histrionicus and other frogs...or do we still have a chance to stop such things from happening again? Or do we even care? I'm glad red galacts are in the hobby but I would give mine up if I knew it would prevent such things from happening in the future and/or would help to save their wild population some how. I can't speak for other keepers but I think many would feel the same way. As far as some of the more recent imports of frogs from the EU I am kinda still on the fence about how I feel regarding most of them.


----------



## NDokai

Chris, 
Congrats. Beautiful frogs. 
I think your stance on disclosing info on your source is perfectly understandable. I wouldn't post it either. Under normal circumstances, maybe. Not when there is at least one person who has already jumped to the conclusion that your frogs are illegal. There is nothing you can do to convince him otherwise, and disclosing that information would just give him another target.
I don't condone buying frogs of questionable origin, but I also believe that people should be given the benefit of the doubt.


In response to the comment about granulifera, I was under the impression that there are some legal ones in the U.S. 
Is this correct? As distinct as this species is, I would think that if they NEVER came into the country legally, people would not be so open about having and/or selling them.

Nick


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## fred

Colombia never gave permission for histrionicus to get exported, only I've heard about a few frogs for scientific research, for sure not for the pet-trade.

So how can anybody have permits??

The real speculation here are the story's about 'legal imports in the past'..

So what's there to proof for me? I'm not the one who have to proof anything; the facts are there; no export-permits from Colombia..the ones keeping these frogs are the ones who have to proof that they are legal..:don't turn the story upside-down..


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## ChrisK

So how is that legal histrionicus export program you said you were setting up coming along fred?


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## Ed

fred said:


> Colombia never gave permission for histrionicus to get exported, only I've heard about a few frogs for scientific research, for sure not for the pet-trade.
> 
> So how can anybody have permits??
> 
> The real speculation here are the story's about 'legal imports in the past'..
> 
> So what's there to proof for me? I'm not the one who have to proof anything; the facts are there; no export-permits from Colombia..the ones keeping these frogs are the ones who have to proof that they are legal..:don't turn the story upside-down..



According to Gorzula, Stefan;1996; The trade in dendrobatid frogs from 1987 to 1993; Herpetological Review 27(3): 116-123; Colombia has exported dendrobatids legally. 


Folks we've been down this road several times over and despite Fred's continued claims that Colombia has never legally exported the species in question, the literature and quotas do not support his assertion of Colombia never having legally exported frogs. For those who have not wallowed (and I am deliberately using that term) through the other threads, I suggest that they review them before continuing the discussion here..) 

This statement should not be construed to mean that these frogs are also not smuggled as there is evidence of this occuring..


----------



## ChrisK

Also, for those who aren't clear yet, or forgot why, fred only attacks histrionicus breeders and not the breeders of frogs that are DEFINITELY illegal, I suggest you read this post and the couple of pages following: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...-would-you-buy-wc-lehmanni-33.html#post482822


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## fred

Chris;

I think I've said enough about frog-farming, and it doesn't get appreciated very much here, so It's no use to talk about it further.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
You've said: 'fred, I realize English is not your native language, so maybe you need to re-read what I keep saying, how I'm not going to send personal legal papers to strangers on an online forum, how I'm not going to subject others to witch hunts etc, how many times does it need repeating?'
------------------------------------------------------------------------

So tell me; if the papers you got from these people are legal, they have nothing to hide, and we can't do them any damage..isn't it?
Then we can only praise them for breeding these frogs and bring more of them in the hobby, so what's the problem about it?

And wouldn't you want to know if they gave you false papers or not? and maybe put you up with smuggled frogs?

Wouldn't you want to know if they make you (without knowing it) help them exterminate the frogs in the wild that you like so much?


These frogs are allready here; It is great you breed with them (I really mean that), but this smuggling needs to be stopped, that's the only thing that matters.

The smugglers don't need to be punished, you and others don't need to loose your frogs (please keep on breeding), just the smuggling must stop now, before everything is gone.

That's all; stop these 'shipping-lines' from going of and on.


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## james67

dont sweat it chris... Fred is just a "party pooper" who wants nothing but to keep people from having a good time, by claiming that we all are either active in or condone sumggling, his moral compass is obviously much more accurate than ours, and this line of talk gets us nowhere.

just for you fred,
party pooper 
n
Informal a person whose behaviour or personality spoils other people's enjoyment
[originally US]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991 

james


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## fred

Hi James;

I'm really sorry I spoil your enjoyment in this matter..but you must understand that I'm not enjoyed by watching species to get extinct.


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## Brien

Damn, half of our population in the U.S. is illegal why dont we focus on them freddy.


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## james67

you really dont understand do you? a rational person would have seen by now that this conversation (if you can call it that) isnt benefiting the wild populations anymore than doing nothing at all. on the contrary, as you have presented yourself as the savior of colombian amphibians, you may be hurting conservation efforts by placing yourself in a bad light with the community. 

james


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## fred

So what do you think that would help in a better way, James?
Maybe keep on buying them from the smugglers, and encourage them to keep it coming..?

About being in a bad light; I see just all the time the same people giving their agressive defensive reactions here, I don't think you are speaking in the name of the whole community overthere, maybe it is you who is putting himself in a bad light..


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## james67

how about adding deposition sites (plastic dixie cups and zipties, or straws like was done in Panama) to areas that have been ravaged by farming, deforestation, etc? it is known that oophaga production is limited by the number of deposition sites. this way you can actually help populations rebound and have some stake in the claim that you are actually helping the animals

...or you could make ridiculous propositions, like "keep on buying them from the smugglers, and encourage them to keep it coming" aimed not at conservation but at attacking me. 

im simply saying that your attacking people, doesnt do ANYTHING to aid the wild animals, or at least i cant possibly see how it could.

and im comfortable with my standing in this community but i certainly dont speak for anyone but myself. if people dont like me, thats fine, i dont need a lot of friends online, but i feel that the ones i have are pretty damn good people. 

james


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## poison beauties

Personally Fred I think your plans are going to make the problem worse. You are going to take from the wild which will further diminish the numbers and breed them with intentions of exporting them. Why not release all offspring back into the wild or why not just invest your time into protecting the territory of the frogs where they stand a better chance in the wild. This way your not disrupting the balance. 
I could really care less which way you go but the minute you export histo's, sylvatica's or what ever you have opened up the market for smuggled lines and newly smuggled frogs. You will not be able to keep your exports seperate from the smuggled frogs.
The only way you can do your part and not help smugglers in any way is a 100% reintroduction breeding program that you could easily get support for. There is no true need to export unless its a financially planned buisness. The frogs need to be helped there first, not pulled from the wild to share with the world. What happened to the true conservation projects.
You seem to repeat everything so I will to. Maybe you will see the light.

Michael


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## sgvreptiles

Does anyone have papers to show the decline in numbers of species in south america?


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## Brien

I can type some up and make it look all fancy and stuff lol. JP


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## HunterB

this thread is like a zombie - everytime you think it's dead it comes back and eats away at your brain with reptitive arguing


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## Enlightened Rogue

All, I would like to apologize, especially to Chris for my stupid ( deleated) post that started this unfortunate mess up all over again.

John


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## Ed

sgvreptiles said:


> Does anyone have papers to show the decline in numbers of species in south america?


Therer are papers out there but they do not seperate out the effects of smuggling from the effects of disease and habitat destruction.. 
this is an interesting one 

http://oro.open.ac.uk/10633/1/Davalos%26Bejarano_proof.pdf


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## poison beauties

It repeats itself because Fred refuses to stop the blame while pushing his opinions on others. When you refuse to listen and dismiss facts you become theThis topic may never end. It has split this board just as bad as Hybrids and Mixed species vivs.

Michael


----------



## billschwinn

I purchased legal imports of Red Head Histos in the late 70's from Pet farm in Miami, so there were imports of histos. I do wish whenpeople get boredthey would not resurect this thread. It has all been said , argued and fought over. I think it is time to move on, maybe ignore the instigator, do something productive, like breed frogs whether you are in the US or Colombia.


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## james67

I'd just like to say that although i realize i come off as argumentative, i really am not attempting to do so. i merely don't appreciate the attitude Fred has taken towards members here, Chris in particular. he has been singled out repeatedly and i for one wont sit idly by and let someone harass another member because of the frogs they are keeping. that's ridiculous. it is a horrible thread that has produced NO new information pertaining to saving wild frogs, other than the aforementioned harassment which , i assume was Fred's attempt to stop smuggling by letting everyone know that if they dare post pics or talk about the frogs that HE has deemed illegal (NOT the governing organizations tasked with doing so) they will be persecuted and therefore he will scare everyone to the point we will stop keeping these animals.

just my 2 cents
james


----------



## Ed

billschwinn said:


> I purchased legal imports of Red Head Histos in the late 70's from Pet farm in Miami, so there were imports of histos. I do wish whenpeople get boredthey would not resurect this thread. It has all been said , argued and fought over. I think it is time to move on, maybe ignore the instigator, do something productive, like breed frogs whether you are in the US or Colombia.


And repeating what I said earlier in support of Bill's comment.. 

According to Gorzula, Stefan;1996; The trade in dendrobatid frogs from 1987 to 1993; Herpetological Review 27(3): 116-123; Colombia has exported dendrobatids legally. 


Folks we've been down this road several times over and despite Fred's continued claims that Colombia has never legally exported the species in question, the literature and quotas do not support his assertion of Colombia never having legally exported frogs. For those who have not wallowed (and I am deliberately using that term) through the other threads, I suggest that they review them before continuing the discussion here..) 

This statement should not be construed to mean that these frogs are also not smuggled as there is evidence of this occuring..


----------



## fred

I quess all the others who warned me are right; it is hopeless out here..
Please go on with your poison (frogs), don't hold back, your nasty words mean nothing to me, I know it has a reason why you behave like this..
Show your characters and attitudes, so everybody can see it.
Your doing well.


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## Boondoggle

Well, you are passive aggressive, Fred,which is not good, but at least you are unreasoning and condescending too.

So that's something.


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## fred

Hi Boondoggle,

You're right; that's because I'm human too, and it's very hard not to get dragged in to the negative atmosphere here.

I quess the amount of illegal frogs is even much bigger overthere then I allready was told by other hobbyists from your own country.

I learned by reading more threads here, that (coincidental) more of the same people who react so agressive and defensive, are somehow somewhere involved with 'shady' frogs on other threads.
That must be the reason they are so blindly defensive and it is so hard reasoning with them.
And obviously they are the ones who rule this forum, so it's no use to keep on talking about it.

They don't want to know and don't want to hear the damage they are doing to the frogs in the wild; just one thing is important: GOT TO HAVE THAT FROG!!

It's not a pretty picture you are showing of the hobby overthere.

I wish you all wisdom.


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## Roadrunner

So, how many legal frogs have been brought in as opposed to how many illegal frogs have been brought in, what morphs(and #`s) and what is the strait percentage chance that these frogs are from a legal pairing instead of an illegal pairing? I think the probability goes one way or the other. Just because a few morphs of a species came in many years ago does not legalize all morphs of that species, does it? 

And you should be able to give the country they came from w/out blowing up someone`s pm`s or giving too much away, don`t you think?


----------



## Boondoggle

fred said:


> Hi Boondoggle,
> 
> You're right; that's because I'm human too...


Fair enough.



fred said:


> I quess the amount of illegal frogs is even much bigger overthere then I allready was told by other hobbyists from your own country.


God forgive me for adding to this thread, and I'm probably wasting my breath, but just for the record:

I have enough frogs at my home to make "civilians" think I'm nuts. I know quite a few froggers, local and remote. I've been to many reptile/amphibian shows over the last 10-15 years. I have NEVER seen actual Lehmanni, or Histo's for that matter, legal or otherwise. I've never know anyone personally who owned any. It's not something you would see at a show. It's not something you would see at a store. It exists, but it's not common at all.


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## earthfrog

HunterB said:


> this thread is like a zombie - everytime you think it's dead it comes back and eats away at your brain with reptitive arguing


Everyone should argue with each other via private message. If it's general issues, keep it public. If there are names involved, keep it private. That helps everyone to have a better day. 

I would not buy WC Lehmanni unless I could see proof that a responsible organization like Treewalkers was giving them sanctuary into a breeding program after a smuggling attempt. If it's not legit, don't go for it. It only increases the deaths due to smuggling.


----------



## skylsdale

earthfrog said:


> I would not buy WC Lehmanni unless I could see proof that a responsible organization like Treewalkers was giving them sanctuary into a breeding program after a smuggling attempt.


Just to clarify: this is not the mission of Tree Walkers International, nor is it part of our current programs. I believe authority for a situation like that would fall on on a government entity such as the USFWS.


----------



## stemcellular

I think TWI needs a PR person, Ron.


----------



## earthfrog

skylsdale said:


> Just to clarify: this is not the mission of Tree Walkers International, nor is it part of our current programs. I believe authority for a situation like that would fall on on a government entity such as the USFWS.


Good point. Thanks for pointing that out---a 'sticky situation' like that would likely need to be run through a government entity before anyone ought to lay a hand on it---one would hate to be slapped with fines or deal with confiscation of their collection...


----------



## fred

> I have enough frogs at my home to make "civilians" think I'm nuts. I know quite a few froggers, local and remote. I've been to many reptile/amphibian shows over the last 10-15 years. I have NEVER seen actual Lehmanni, or Histo's for that matter, legal or otherwise. I've never know anyone personally who owned any. It's not something you would see at a show. It's not something you would see at a store. It exists, but it's not common at all.


Hi Boondoggle,

I understand what you're saying here, and I believe you, but I hear also from others that there are regularly illegal frogs are coming in, and also here on the forum, people talk about and show these frogs openly.

This is not a good thing; it will encourage others to do the same, they will think; 'if they can do this without any problems, I can do it too'..
Know what I mean?

Although, I respect people who are breeding with the frogs, still it's a very delicate matter, and we should not ignore the problems we create if the frogs are not registrated and stay in a unclear area.

Probably -if what you say is right- there are not too much of these frogs around, and specially not much offspring, (most of these smuggled frogs die after a while and people just buy new) so it's not very difficult to make a list of people who keep them and also who breeds them, and where the offspring is going to..

I think nobody here has problems with his/her frogs to get registrated and so in this way considered for sure legal.

This could be a way to reduce the smuggled animals from coming in, cause they can't be registrated anymore..
And the animals that allready are smuggled, don't go to waste in some kind of temporarly shelter where they never coma out alive after being confiscated..

Other people here are for sure much better in setting up this kind of systems, it's just an idea to try and solve the problem.
To begin with there should be a list of frogs which are getting -or have a chance to get- smuggled (we allready know many of them) and from what country's, so that's not too hard.
Maybe there are some others with more ideas? (try to keep it constructive, and friendly)




> So, how many legal frogs have been brought in as opposed to how many illegal frogs have been brought in, what morphs(and #`s) and what is the strait percentage chance that these frogs are from a legal pairing instead of an illegal pairing? I think the probability goes one way or the other. Just because a few morphs of a species came in many years ago does not legalize all morphs of that species, does it?


Hi frogfarm,

Exactly!


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> Hi Boondoggle,
> 
> I understand what you're saying here, and I believe you, but I hear also from others that there are regularly illegal frogs are coming in, and also here on the forum, people talk about and show these frogs openly.
> 
> This is not a good thing; it will encourage others to do the same, they will think; 'if they can do this without any problems, I can do it too'..
> Know what I mean?
> 
> Although, I respect people who are breeding with the frogs, still it's a very delicate matter, and we should not ignore the problems we create if the frogs are not registrated and stay in a unclear area.
> 
> Probably -if what you say is right- there are not too much of these frogs around, and specially not much offspring, (most of these smuggled frogs die after a while and people just buy new) so it's not very difficult to make a list of people who keep them and also who breeds them, and where the offspring is going to..
> 
> I think nobody here has problems with his/her frogs to get registrated and so in this way considered for sure legal.
> 
> This could be a way to reduce the smuggled animals from coming in, cause they can't be registrated anymore..
> And the animals that allready are smuggled, don't go to waste in some kind of temporarly shelter where they never coma out alive after being confiscated..
> 
> Other people here are for sure much better in setting up this kind of systems, it's just an idea to try and solve the problem.
> To begin with there should be a list of frogs which are getting -or have a chance to get- smuggled (we allready know many of them) and from what country's, so that's not too hard.
> Maybe there are some others with more ideas? (try to keep it constructive, and friendly)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi frogfarm,
> 
> Exactly!


Fred, can you answer one simple question? I think so far you have failed to do it, or I missed it..... What constitutes an Illegal frog? If we have real legal documents allowing the frog to be shipped from the EU to here is the frog still Illegal in your mind? Because here if you have those documents then basically the frog is legal to own, at least till the government decides it isn't.

If a frog has never been legal to own here, and has no legal paper work to validate its importation here from the country of origin or at least the EU then It is highly improbable posting about it here would be condoned...I've never seen it. 

What we do condone, perhaps more then we should is the posting of frogs that have legal paper work saying they were shipped here legally...or at least in theory could have this paper work because in many cases unless the person is willing to post copies we just can't know for certain if the frog was Illegally shipped. There are valid reasons for some people not wanting to give that information...so how is it fair to accuse everyone of smuggling who won't post copies? It isn't... we really have little choice except to give people the benefit of the doubt without proof other wise. Unless you suggest we conduct witch hunts regularly.

You keep pushing the frog registration which is a good idea in theory...But I see no way to make it work in practice without forcing people to do it, and the only way you can do that is for the government to step in and make it mandatory which I doubt will ever happen.

With a volunteer system you run into a problem because the only way you can fairly deny registration is if all the people who are allowed to import that frog legally are willing to step up and say "that guy didn't buy his frogs from us...THEY ARE ILLEGAL!"...Again I doubt unless its mandated by the government that you will be able to force people to do this. 

Also in this country for many species if they are legal to import there is no restriction on who can import them. Any individual can legally import a frog that is legal to do so from its host country or the EU and perhaps Japan and other countries. There is no way to monitor a system and track the people doing the imports and who they sell the frogs to like that without registration. Thus there is no way to say who has the legal frogs and who has the illegal frogs which again leaves you with the problem of knowing who to accuse and it not being fair to accuse everyone.

Perhaps that should change...but till it does and the government is willing to enforce it your idea Fred how ever good in theory simply will not work in this country. Perhaps we should shun frogs and the people who post them when the frogs origins are likely from illegally smuggled animals or their offspring but there is no way for us to be sure of that in most cases, and the people do or at least could have legal paper work for the frogs so Fred how is it fair or right to deny their ability to post about those frogs? Really the only thing we can do and be in the "ethical clear" is respond to a post like that with something like "Nice frogs...but I'm not comfortable with the probable origins of most of that species/morph in the EU hobby so I'm not comfortable with people here buying them and posting about them". 

Thats really all we can say fairly Fred...Perhaps we should say that more often then we do, I'm willing to grant you that Fred. But that is likely to create enemies or at least drama and we are a community and many in that community don't want to risk that unless the frog is clearly illegal, and here if you have paper work or COULD have paper work...it isn't clear that the frog is illegal to possess regardless of the laws of its country of origin. Maybe people should respect the laws of the host country more...but until OUR government starts enforcing the laws of those countries for those countries here people are under no legal obligation to do so...and the ethical one is a grey area at best in many people's minds.

Simply put Fred is isn't fair or right to accuse people when the frog is legal to own here in the USA and COULD have paper work. Even if the frog is in a grey area...IT IS GREY, meaning it is up to the individual to determine for themselves how ethical it is to own that frog. Maybe they won't all make the determination we wan't them to but we have no right to force them to, or make accusations when they don't. 

I have never seen a case of someone posting a clearly smuggled frog here that the government would go arrest that person for if they knew about it...maybe it has happened, but I missed it if so. I am still unclear as to what the hobby in general as a whole says is a legal and ethical frog to own, so I think I'll make a Poll and post it on this forum and see If we can finally figure that out to some extent.


----------



## ChrisK

Dendro Dave said:


> You keep pushing the frog registration which is a good idea in theory...But I see no way to make it work in practice without forcing people to do it, and the only way you can do that is for the government to step in and make it mandatory which I doubt will ever happen.
> 
> Simply put Fred is isn't fair or right to accuse people when the frog is legal to own here in the USA and COULD have paper work. Even if the frog is in a grey area...IT IS GREY, meaning it is up to the individual to determine for themselves how ethical it is to own that frog. Maybe they won't all make the determination we wan't them to but we have no right to force them to, or make accusations when they don't.


I think fred's plan is to shun any histrionicus in the hobby that are not the ones that HE is going to be selling, again the monopoly idea. By the way, re: him pushing the idea of only embracing frogs with registration, that's what he's planning on doing with the frogs he sells, so you can see where all this is going......


----------



## keith campbell

fred said:


> Chris,
> 
> If that's so, why is it such a problem then to show your papers or tell the people here (for sure also nature-protection organizations are reading this) where you got your frogs from?
> 
> By the way; the frogs I was showing on the pictures in the thread 'MAKING FAKE ROCKS', are c.b. offspring from confiscated frogs, being bred in a conservation-program.
> The expo was about nature-protection in Colombia, and to educate people about what is going on.
> 
> And don't worry about legal frogs coming to your country, cause first you need to have a good working system overthere that clearly separates legal from illegal and this kind of practices are not possible anymore.
> 
> Just missed your last mail: about these people with their 'mailing-lists' (I allready mentioned before there are this kind of lists going around), don't want you to talk about it not because they don't want to sell their frogs or whatever, but because of other reasons..they have something to hide, and we all know what it is.
> If they would have bred these frogs, they would have been proud on it, like you.
> 
> Because you're in the open with it, is the only thing that give me doubts about if you really know about the real origin of your frogs or not.
> 
> I can imagine that maybe you don't know about it, this could be because you don't have a lot of experience in this matter, or you just don't want to know it, maybe.


WOW Fred. You are a real piece of......work


----------



## Dendro Dave

Ok I created the Poll I mentioned in an attempt to figure out the general stance of the hobby and also to help me figure out my own opinion since in some matters I am still "On the fence"

I invite everyone here to respond to it...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...l-what-frogs-do-you-consider-ethical-own.html


----------



## fred

Hi Dave,

I see what you mean, and I understand.

There are two choises; leave it like it is and only feel frustrated about it (if you are someone who cares), or do something about it, and change this grey area, that is created because the system probably fails to do so.

About that simpel question; I answered that allready many times; these frogs are international protected, and it's not allowed to take them away from their habitat.
People who do so, are doing this in an illegal way, and papers they have (mostly from Germany) are not real.
That these papers are accepted by your authorities, only means that the people working there are not really diggin' into the matter..

What is the international protection or trade status for if some country's do not comply?

These frogs are not protected for nothing.



> So, how many legal frogs have been brought in as opposed to how many illegal frogs have been brought in, what morphs(and #`s) and what is the strait percentage chance that these frogs are from a legal pairing instead of an illegal pairing? I think the probability goes one way or the other. Just because a few morphs of a species came in many years ago does not legalize all morphs of that species, does it?


This quote here from Aaron hits the nail on the head, and it says what most people here do now, but don't dare to speak their minds, so instead they deny it.

Sticking heads in the soil doesn't take away the problem; if others pollute your hobby, you have the right to do something about it.
Remember that we all get blamed for it.


Chris and Keith; 

If you bring more constructive comments, I can talk with you, but you're not going to drag me into this nasty slaggin anymore.

It's only to mess up this very important subject.


One more thing I would like to say is that long time ago a few frogs being smuggled wasn't such a big deal; there was a handfull of hobbyists, so these where no big numbers; that's how many species got into the hobby.

At this moment the hobby is really much bigger, and still expanding; we are not talking about a handfull of hobbyists and a few frogs anymore..
Take that also in consideration..

Together with the fact that the more 'established' frogs-species in the hobby are much easy, faster, and in bigger numbers to breed then the species we are talking about.


----------



## ChrisK

fred said:


> Chris and Keith;
> 
> If you bring more constructive comments, I can talk with you, but you're not going to drag me into this nasty slaggin anymore.
> 
> It's only to mess up this very important subject.


I tried that but it didn't work; you only seem interested in 'condoning' histrionicus that will be 'registered' by your future system, that you yourself will be selling.


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I see what you mean, and I understand.
> 
> There are two choises; leave it like it is and only feel frustrated about it (if you are someone who cares), or do something about it, and change this grey area, that is created because the system probably fails to do so.
> 
> About that simpel question; I answered that allready many times; these frogs are international protected, and it's not allowed to take them away from their habitat.
> People who do so, are doing this in an illegal way, and papers they have (mostly from Germany) are not real.
> That these papers are accepted by your authorities, only means that the people working there are not really diggin' into the matter..
> 
> What is the international protection or trade status for if some country's do not comply?
> 
> These frogs are not protected for nothing.



Ok sorry that I missed it, but as Ed pointed out in the case of Columbia you seem to be mistaken about some of these frogs never being exported from their country of origin. Some were legally exported to here and/or the EU...should we shun these frogs and their keepers even if there is a chance that the they are from legal captive bred stock? 

The frogs may no longer be exported legally but if they were at some time its very hard to tell now which frogs are from old legal frogs and would still be legal to own and which are from new illegal frogs and thus illegal to own. Other then the registration idea how do you propose we deal with situations like that? When people have frogs that are basically legal to have here...Should they not post them, should they all be destroyed or sent to an institution, do we shy away from them and their keepers, what do we do?


----------



## ChrisK

Dendro Dave said:


> Ok sorry that I missed it, but as Ed pointed out in the case of Columbia you seem to be mistaken about some of these frogs never being exported from their country of origin. Some were legally exported to here and/or the EU...should we shun these frogs and their keepers even if there is a chance that the they are from legal captive bred stock?
> 
> The frogs may no longer be exported legally but if they were at some time its very hard to tell now which frogs are from old legal frogs and would still be legal to own and which are from new illegal frogs and thus illegal to own. Other then the registration idea how do you propose we deal with situations like that? When people have frogs that are basically legal to have here...Should they not post them, should they all be destroyed or sent to an institution, do we shy away from them and their keepers, what do we do?


That's _part_ of the point, fred refuses to acknowledge that there are any legit histrionicus anywhere in the hobby when he knows that there are plenty. First he says the legal ones never bred and didn't survive, then later he says they were never exported, yada yada yada.


----------



## markbudde

I'm surprised how many people are OK with buying WC smuggled frogs.


----------



## fred

Hi Dave,

I see you created a poll; great idea!

Hope that people have the courage to speak their mind, because that seems to be a problem here..most are affraid for the reactions of the 'establishment'..

I'm not misstaken about the frogs being exported in the past; these are not big numbers, and probably even only exported for scientifical research.

Fact is -and we all know- that these frogs are not easy to breed, so they died out in the hobby.
Though every year they keep appearing, all kinds of morphs, including 'new ones'..

Like I said before; many frogs are being smuggled in the hobby in the past, and I think we have to keep it very simple and maybe split these up in two different types of frogs; 'easy to breed and maintain', or 'not so easy to breed and maintain'.

The 'easy to breed' frogs stabilized in the hobby in the past years.
The 'not so easy to breed frogs' never stabilized.

So that's a big difference we should think about in the first place.

The problem here are mainly the 'not so easy to breed frogs', and I think it is not so difficult to make a list of these species.


What should we do with the frogs that are allready here, you're asking me; well, in the first place I think that we should do something about the fact that more frogs at the moment are being smuggled and coming in illegal.
That's a priority.

The problem is that one and one goes together; these frogs are being smuggled because we buy them and use 'old legal papers' to call them offspring from 'old legal exports'.
If we don't do something about this system in the hobby, the frogs will be coming in up to the very last one like the lehmanni....they will disappear in the wild, and later also in the hobby.
Gone forever.

So yes, because of the situation, I would say; legalize everything that there allready is in the hobby, don't let the frogs go to waste, let people try to breed them, but do registrate them, otherwise nothing changes and it only gets worse..

If anybody have a better idea, great!, but lets do something about it.


----------



## poison beauties

There is no way to prove that many of the Histo's here are smuggled. Anyone in this or the herp hobby saw them 10+ years ago for sale. Right out of petstores for less than 75 bucks each. We all saw them and many bought them. Who knows how many are still around as people like Fred cause too many issues and breeders just keep it quiet about what they have. Unless a species is never exported you will never know for a fact or be able to prove they are from smuggled lines. Why argue the past of our hobby. We need to better the future. Whats here is here and we have to deal with it.

Michael


----------



## skylsdale

poison beauties said:


> There is no way to prove that many of the Histo's here are smuggled. Anyone in this or the herp hobby saw them 10+ years ago for sale... Who knows how many are still around as people like...


Nor is there any definite way to prove that they weren't smuggled. Each view requires the same belief (or suspended disbelief) in certain facts. Sure, it's possible that hordes of CB histrionica and sylvatica being imported from Europe are from stock that were originally collected and imported there 10-15 years ago...but is it really that probable?

Yes, we all want to keep the door open to the possibility that all of these frogs that we want to own really really badly are 110% legitimate and perfectly legal...but c'mon, really?

If someone has been successful enough to produce that many purely CB offspring of histrionica to ship them over in such large batches, I want to fly across the Atlantic just to shake their hand: they are perhaps the single most successful and successfully secret Dendrobatid keeper in the entire global hobbyist community.


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I see you created a poll; great idea!
> 
> Hope that people have the courage to speak their mind, because that seems to be a problem here..most are affraid for the reactions of the 'establishment'..
> 
> I'm not misstaken about the frogs being exported in the past; these are not big numbers, and probably even only exported for scientifical research.
> 
> Fact is -and we all know- that these frogs are not easy to breed, so they died out in the hobby.
> Though every year they keep appearing, all kinds of morphs, including 'new ones'..
> 
> Like I said before; many frogs are being smuggled in the hobby in the past, and I think we have to keep it very simple and maybe split these up in two different types of frogs; 'easy to breed and maintain', or 'not so easy to breed and maintain'.
> 
> The 'easy to breed' frogs stabilized in the hobby in the past years.
> The 'not so easy to breed frogs' never stabilized.
> 
> So that's a big difference we should think about in the first place.
> 
> The problem here are mainly the 'not so easy to breed frogs', and I think it is not so difficult to make a list of these species.
> 
> 
> What should we do with the frogs that are allready here, you're asking me; well, in the first place I think that we should do something about the fact that more frogs at the moment are being smuggled and coming in illegal.
> That's a priority.
> 
> The problem is that one and one goes together; these frogs are being smuggled because we buy them and use 'old legal papers' to call them offspring from 'old legal exports'.
> If we don't do something about this system in the hobby, the frogs will be coming in up to the very last one like the lehmanni....they will disappear in the wild, and later also in the hobby.
> Gone forever.
> 
> So yes, because of the situation, I would say; legalize everything that there allready is in the hobby, don't let the frogs go to waste, let people try to breed them, but do registrate them, otherwise nothing changes and it only gets worse..
> 
> If anybody have a better idea, great!, but lets do something about it.


I've been in contact with keepers over the years that had original or offspring from original old imports of Histrionicus and lehmanni and other rare frogs so I'm sure that the legal ones are still out there and have been aware of some breeding, a few are still working with them and increasing their numbers slowly. There are still small numbers of amimals though but they did NOT die out in the hobby, not all species/morphs. So that is one area you are mistaken, and I believe you are still mistaken about some of the others. I think you should probably do more research into the legal import/exports of various countries and what species/morphs they involved and in what numbers before you continue to spread what seems to be misinformation.

Also many people have new papers, so that is more misinformation on your part...recently issued ones basically giving them approval to not only import the frog but to own it. Though it is true our government could reconsider and decide they are Illegal at any time making that person in violation of the law

I am suprised to hear you say legalize all past frogs of questionable origin...that was not a response I anticipated. I think that may be a workable approach especially for more established species/morphs but perhaps not the newest ones that are here or in the EU in very small numbers. Plus there would need to be better enforcement in all countries of current laws and perhaps a reworking of the way imports/exports are done here in the S. America, EU and USA. I would like to see a more controlled practice especially with threatened and endangered animals where only certain people are allowed to bring them in. I think we need a combination of approaches and new laws, and better enforcement of old ones before legalizing past animals to ensure that they don't usher in a flood of smuggled animals while the CB population is to small to support the demand. But as Ed pointed out its unclear if that will have much impact on smuggling and/or demand for fresh new WC imports. Really it comes down to stopping the frogs from ever leaving the host country which is best done there. 

Educating people about the frog's situation is one thing but making accusations especially after just saying you think they should all probably be legalized is somewhat hypocritical and counterproductive. Given what you've just said I don't understand why you are here accusing people of having illegal animals...even if they are illegal which is still unclear in my mind by making the statement that "they should be legal and not go to waste" you have essentially given tacit approval to people having them and continuing to import them from the EU.

As I said in the beginning I think while your intentions may be good but your approach is flawed and needs to be reconsidered. You need to come at us in a more diplomatic way instead of just spreading blind accusations of us all...and it did feel like your were saying "we are all bad", when in fact it is a very small number of people doing anything wrong, at worse the larger percentage just doesn't know what to say or do because they aren't sure what should be considered OK, ethical or legal. 

You've come off like your making us all out to be the bad guy, and that is no way to educate people or win them over for your cause, add in spreading misinformation and you are doing more to hurt your cause and the frogs, and our hobby then each of us is (most of us) by just continuing to do what we have been doing. Add to that you just basically said legalize everything all the while accusing people of doing illegal things and you've further damaged your own credibility and efforts to help the frogs. 

Seriously Fred I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this isn't about just causing trouble, or getting a monopoly on importing rare frogs for yourself but you continue to hurt your own cause with the style of your approach. If you care about the things you say you do, you will take steps to fix that and make up for it. I hope you do....good luck.

BTW my poll has had 57 views and 0 responses. I have refrained from responding so far because I'm still trying to figure out just what I find to be ethical...but I can't believe that out of 56 other people no one has figured out their own position. So on this issue I am siding with Fred...I'm shocked that more people here aren't willing to answer an *ANONYMOUS* poll. Or speak out in any way. No one has even bothered to say my options were flawed thus limiting the validity of the poll...so I can only assume after 56 other views that is not the reason people are shying away from the poll...I can think of few other reasons that frankly aren't shameful. Hate to say it but so far it looks like Fred was right on that point at least. Shame on us.


----------



## ChrisK

skylsdale said:


> If someone has been successful enough to produce that many purely CB offspring of histrionica to ship them over in such large batches, I want to fly across the Atlantic just to shake their hand: they are perhaps the single most successful and successfully secret Dendrobatid keeper in the entire global hobbyist community.


I regularly correspond with someone out there who produces froglets at an unbelievable rate. Do I know for sure where and when he got his founding stock? No. I do know they can be and are produced a lot more than people think.


----------



## poison beauties

Im not stupid, I know there are alot of smuggled frogs here. I also know of many who have bred these frogs and sent them around the hobby. If you dont know who has what and how many of the legal papered ones you will never know how many smuggled ones are here. None of us will. 
As I said what is here is here. Its time to move on. There will be more show up in time and the minute fred exports any of them the numbers will rise. You will see.
Breeding darts in numbers is the easy part. Figuring out what the peak conditions are for them is all that is required.

Michael


----------



## skylsdale

I'm not referring to "what's here is here"...I'm referring to the hundreds that AREN'T currently here but but are being shipped here as CB speciments and added to what is already here. Granted, we can't do much with what's already here, but those things that continue to pour in that seem to be rather dubious...we obviously need to think pretty critically about the issue and their probably provenance.

This isn't something I'm going to discuss further or argue point-for-point, nor am I laying any sort of blame or pointing fingers (and I don't recall saying that anyone was stupid), but there seems to be this group mentality to want to believe what could quite possibly be pretty false just to satiate our own personal desires. That, to me, enters into be a pretty sketchy place.


----------



## fred

Hi Poison beauties,

It doesn't mean that frogs sold from petstores where legal..also in Holland lehmanni's have been sold from petstores in the past; just another smuggling-wave in a time there was not a lot of controll yet..



> Who knows how many are still around as people like Fred cause too many issues and breeders just keep it quiet about what they have. Unless a species is never exported you will never know for a fact or be able to prove they are from smuggled lines. Why argue the past of our hobby. We need to better the future. Whats here is here and we have to deal with it.


What you are saying here makes no sence to me..we need to do better in the future; does that mean ignore the situation like it was in the past and how it stil is now?
I'm not allowed to talk about it, nobody is..how do you want to change a situation if we even can't talk about it?

Skylesdale:


> Nor is there any definite way to prove that they weren't smuggled. Each view requires the same belief (or suspended disbelief) in certain facts. Sure, it's possible that hordes of CB histrionica and sylvatica being imported from Europe are from stock that were originally collected and imported there 10-15 years ago...but is it really that probable?
> 
> Yes, we all want to keep the door open to the possibility that all of these frogs that we want to own really really badly are 110% legitimate and perfectly legal...but c'mon, really?
> 
> If someone has been successful enough to produce that many purely CB offspring of histrionica to ship them over in such large batches, I want to fly across the Atlantic just to shake their hand: they are perhaps the single most successful and successfully secret Dendrobatid keeper in the entire global hobbyist community.
> Today 02:17 PM


Hi Ron, You know what i'm talking about.


Hi Dave, 

I would like to react on your post, but it's too extensive and a little confusing (sorry) you're talking in two directions, that's no problem, but a little difficult for me to react.
But I do think you are a very sincere person.

Don't believe everything you hear about legal papers; I'm very close to the source here and know people who know.
All back to the eighties these frogs were allready being smuggled.


----------



## poison beauties

skylsdale said:


> I'm not referring to "what's here is here"...I'm referring to the hundreds that AREN'T currently here but but are being shipped here as CB speciments and added to what is already here. Granted, we can't do much with what's already here, but those things that continue to pour in that seem to be rather dubious...we obviously need to think pretty critically about the issue and their probably provenance.
> 
> This isn't something I'm going to discuss further or argue point-for-point, nor am I laying any sort of blame or pointing fingers (and I don't recall saying that anyone was stupid), but there seems to be this group mentality to want to believe what could quite possibly be pretty false just to satiate our own personal desires. That, to me, enters into be a pretty sketchy place.


Im not saying we should not try to stop it as far as what is still coming in. I wish we could stop it all but only a plan that includes the home country doing their part will work.
As far as blame or the stupid remark, I was just refering to what you said as far as the percentages of cb go. I know the number is not as high as the smuggled number but neither is Auratus or or any other import Im guessing as we would not need them if it was.
To be honest, I would pass on many of these sketchy deals and some people on this board know full well I have passed on some of the nicest ones as I ask the questions and do my part. More should as well but it wont stop the frogs from coming. No need to argue this Ron. I agree with alot of what you say.

Michael


----------



## Web Wheeler

Readily available, affordable DNA testing is the answer, not only to this issue (legal vs. illegal frogs), but to many other issues in the pet trade as well.

DNA Diagnostics, Inc. - Genetics, Forensics, Paternity, Human DNA Testing, & Animal DNA Testing


----------



## fred

Poison beauties,


> Im not saying we should not try to stop it as far as what is still coming in. I wish we could stop it all but only a plan that includes the home country doing their part will work.


The home country's are doing their work by creating reserves, protecting the frogs by international laws, etc.

This will never stop the smuggling; it is relatively easy to take these little frogs out of a country, and even much larger animals..



> To be honest, I would pass on many of these sketchy deals and some people on this board know full well I have passed on some of the nicest ones as I ask the questions and do my part. More should as well but it wont stop the frogs from coming.


It will not stop the smuggling but it will reduce it; the prove is yourself; you didn't buy these frogs they offered you isn't it?
So that means that you are aware of the situation and you don't want to get involved in it, that's good.
If more people do the same like you did, it will reduce the smuggling.

Another thing is that you obviously knew that these frogs they offered you where 'sketchy', so why didn't you do anything about it?
You didn't buy them, but also didn't take any action against it.
Also 'others on this board' know about it you say....it looks like a mud-pit if you ask me..
And most are looking the other way and act like nothing's wrong.

Hi Web Wheeler,

That's definitely worht studying..


----------



## jubjub47

fred said:


> I'm not misstaken about the frogs being exported in the past; these are not big numbers, and probably even only exported for scientifical research.


I know for a fact that these frogs were imported for the pet industry in rather large amounts. We used to get them thrown in with fish shipments unordered and most times were not even charged for them. Our pet store was far from a research institute. Although we did our fair share of experiments.


----------



## poison beauties

fred said:


> Poison beauties,
> 
> 
> The home country's are doing their work by creating reserves, protecting the frogs by international laws, etc.
> 
> This will never stop the smuggling; it is relatively easy to take these little frogs out of a country, and even much larger animals..
> 
> 
> 
> It will not stop the smuggling but it will reduce it; the prove is yourself; you didn't buy these frogs they offered you isn't it?
> So that means that you are aware of the situation and you don't want to get involved in it, that's good.
> If more people do the same like you did, it will reduce the smuggling.
> 
> Another thing is that you obviously knew that these frogs they offered you where 'sketchy', so why didn't you do anything about it?
> You didn't buy them, but also didn't take any action against it.
> Also 'others on this board' know about it you say....it looks like a mud-pit if you ask me..
> And most are looking the other way and act like nothing's wrong.
> 
> Hi Web Wheeler,
> 
> That's definitely worht studying..



Fred,
I did not go beyond passing up lots of frogs because I do not throw blame unless I can prove it. Im well known for asking questions but like I said we will never know what is legal and what is not as its already here. While I passed them up this will do nothing as the frogs are here and if the smuggled frogs do not find new homes they likely die and then we have another rare frog line lost to the wild and our hobby. The only way to stop it is before they get taken out of the wild. Once they are out, we have 2 options buy them or not. There will always be a new buyer for one who passed the frogs up. What do you think should happen to the smuggled frogs? Let them all die off? That in my opinion is just making things worse as many are already endangered. 
And as far as numbers go, technically we could mass produce them in this hobby if we got them all together under the same quality care. Its not hard to do. If I can produce 100 reticulata in a year from 5-6 pairs than it would not be so hard to do it with some of these frogs under peak conditions. The ones that came in back in the 90's can and are still alive in some collections and it could be another 10 or more years before even needing to go to f2 so it is very possible for us to start a steady supply line with some of these legal frogs if this was carefully set up. If you have breed any of these frogs you know what the possibilities are and with a dozen or more groups floating around we could technically produce a decent supply of them. The only problem is the need for froggers to keep quiet about their legal frogs as they dont wish to take on the shit storm Chris has.

Michael


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> The home country's are doing their work by creating reserves, protecting the frogs by international laws, etc.


For those interested check out this reference on the effectiveness on parks in Colombia 

http://oro.open.ac.uk/10633/1/Davalos%26Bejarano_proof.pdf


With respect to the thread, this has become a circular argument and is rehashing all of the information that has been covered before. 


Ed


----------



## fred

Hi Ed,

Interesting article, though I'm not really interested in drugs.
I don't see much resemblance with the frogs, accept that there's a market for drugs-production and a market for smuggled frogs because people from other country's request it.
Like you can read in the same article:

quote:
'Trafficking
Illegal drug users exist in every country in the world, but it is the purchasing
power of users in developed countries that drives most trafficking. There are
many more illegal drug users in the United States (and Europe) than in producing
countries: less than 1 percent of adults in Colombia reported using cocaine
(~280,000 people), compared to almost 3 percent in the US (~6 million people).19'

I've heard from biologists here that in some area's the coca-fields damage a lot of habitat, but ironicly enough are also some frog-species well protected agianst the smugglers in some of these area's..because of the danger to go there and catch them..

By the way; I tried to check out this reverence you gave: 
quote:
'According to Gorzula, Stefan;1996; The trade in dendrobatid frogs from 1987 to 1993; Herpetological Review 27(3): 116-123; Colombia has exported dendrobatids legally.'

But although the good man has done a mountain of very impressive work, I can't find anything here about frogs being exported legal from Colombia..
I see a big list of country's where the good man did a lot of work, but Colombia is not on his list.
Maybe I'm missing something?

I do check out your tips, Ed, and it's not my intention to be disrespectfull, so maybe we can try to continue this thread in a more respectfull way; I do have enough of all the bad behavior here, including that from myself.
It's not getting us any further.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> Interesting article, though I'm not really interested in drugs.
> I don't see much resemblance with the frogs, accept that there's a market for drugs-production and a market for smuggled frogs because people from other country's request it.


Actually Fred, If you paid attention to the context, it was an indication of the failure of the Colombian goverment to protect thier resources. As I've repeatedly noted in this and other threads, there is a lot of evidence (included provided by you) that Colombia is not doing much to stop the habitat destruction, illegal collection and/or smuggling out of the country. 



fred said:


> I've heard from biologists here that in some area's the coca-fields damage a lot of habitat, but ironicly enough are also some frog-species well protected agianst the smugglers in some of these area's..because of the danger to go there and catch them..


Until thier habitat is clear cut for a cocoa field, and the resulting toxic chemical dumps from extracting and processing the cocaine from the leaves.. 



fred said:


> By the way; I tried to check out this reverence you gave:
> quote:
> 'According to Gorzula, Stefan;1996; The trade in dendrobatid frogs from 1987 to 1993; Herpetological Review 27(3): 116-123; Colombia has exported dendrobatids legally.'
> 
> But although the good man has done a mountain of very impressive work, I can't find anything here about frogs being exported legal from Colombia..
> I see a big list of country's where the good man did a lot of work, but Colombia is not on his list.
> Maybe I'm missing something?
> 
> I do check out your tips, Ed, and it's not my intention to be disrespectfull, so maybe we can try to continue this thread in a more respectfull way; I do have enough of all the bad behavior here, including that from myself.
> It's not getting us any further.


You may check them out but you have a real problem with comprehension and context. Those were frogs listed as exported on CITES documents from the country of origin.. The country of origin, in this case Colombia had to issue that paperwork.. are you now claiming that the permits for export were not legal? On what basis are you claiming that it true? (A failure to keep copies of permits is not proof). The article is proof that Colombia exported the frogs. You have continually claimed Colombia has not exported despite evidence to the contrary.


----------



## fred

> Actually Fred, If you paid attention to the context, it was an indication of the failure of the Colombian goverment to protect thier resources. As I've repeatedly noted in this and other threads, there is a lot of evidence (included provided by you) that Colombia is not doing much to stop the habitat destruction, illegal collection and/or smuggling out of the country.


Hi Ed; Colombia is doing a lot (and more and more) to protect their nature, offcourse it is not enough, but maybe you didn't notice their are more problems going on in this country? 
And again; the cause of the drugs being produced, and animals getting smuggled out, lies not in this country, but comes from outside, that's clear to see.

So in your opinion all the country's like Costa Rica, Panama, Equador, Peru, Suriname, etc. etc., are responsible for the frogs that get stolen from out of their nature by people from other country's..?

What you're saying is that if you get robbed, it's your own fault, you're asking for it, right?
If you park your car somewhere, and it gets stolen, or someone breaks in your house, it's not the fault of the criminal, or the one who give the command to steal it, no, it's your own fault..



> Until thier habitat is clear cut for a cocoa field, and the resulting toxic chemical dumps from extracting and processing the cocaine from the leaves..


Ed; where was this toxic chemical dump coming from, because you like to reverence so much, here are a few of them: 

CorpWatch : Toxic Drift: Monsanto and the Drug War in Colombia
Organic Consumers Association
Colombia's other war | openDemocracy
Bulatlat.com



> You may check them out but you have a real problem with comprehension and context. Those were frogs listed as exported on CITES documents from the country of origin.. The country of origin, in this case Colombia had to issue that paperwork.. are you now claiming that the permits for export were not legal? On what basis are you claiming that it true? (A failure to keep copies of permits is not proof). The article is proof that Colombia exported the frogs. You have continually claimed Colombia has not exported despite evidence to the contrary.



Comprehension and disagreement are two different things, Ed, but I didn't disagree something here, I just asked you:

Where in the reverence you gave is the good man saying that Colombia exported these frogs legally?
I can't find it.
You say the article is proof that Colombia exported the frogs, ok, then show me the article, that's what I'm asking you.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Hi Ed; Colombia is doing a lot (and more and more) to protect their nature, offcourse it is not enough, but maybe you didn't notice their are more problems going on in this country?


I have yet to see you provide any proof/support of this statement. I have seen you make claims about this and then either contradict them yourself (like being aware of huge shipments being put together for export, failing to compel other countries to enforce treaty obligations, failure to notify the various agencies in other countries, lack of enforcement on the ground and so forth) or have them contradicted in the literature. 



fred said:


> And again; the cause of the drugs being produced, and animals getting smuggled out, lies not in this country, but comes from outside, that's clear to see.


Actually Fred, it is also internal as the goverement of Colombia has not provided a alternative way for the people to make a living... We discussed this and you claim that is impossible. Well if it is impossible then the people are going to continue to act in this manner. 

The counter argument could as easily be made the counter argument that the reason people want the drugs and smuggled frogs is because Colombia makes it so easy for the people who pay for them to get them, that Colombia has deliberately set up a marketing program to get people to buy them. In reality, Colombia is acting as an enabler.... 




fred said:


> So in your opinion all the country's like Costa Rica, Panama, Equador, Peru, Suriname, etc. etc., are responsible for the frogs that get stolen from out of their nature by people from other country's..?


Why do you continually try to misdirect the discussion away from Colombia? Were we discussing those countries? This continual redirection is the same as pointing at someone and crying "why can't I do it, they're doing it" 



fred said:


> What you're saying is that if you get robbed, it's your own fault, you're asking for it, right?
> If you park your car somewhere, and it gets stolen, or someone breaks in your house, it's not the fault of the criminal, or the one who give the command to steal it, no, it's your own fault..


Fred, this is not a correct analogy and you know it. This is kneejerk response to gain sympathy... 

According to you they have no other way to make money, and for the goverment to encourage other methods is impossible... The person robbing me, my house, stealing my car, is not being denied the ability to improve themselves (as they have access to schools, social programs, financial aid, etc) and the goverment here does use all of the means available to deal with the problems as possible. 




fred said:


> Ed; where was this toxic chemical dump coming from, because you like to reverence so much, here are a few of them:


Fred, the toxic waste dumps occur where ever they process the leaves into cocaine. They aren't recycling the materials but dumping them right into the frog habitat, you claimed the drug growers were protecting (while they clear cut it to grow the plants and then dump the chemicals). Is there any particular reason you are attempting to draw the attention away from the continual destruction of the frog habitat inside the preserves and parks...

I posted the references on what needs to occur to significantly decrease smuggling of the frogs earlier in this and other threads none of which have changed, and all of which you claim are impossible. 




fred said:


> Where in the reverence you gave is the good man saying that Colombia exported these frogs legally?
> I can't find it.
> You say the article is proof that Colombia exported the frogs, ok, then show me the article, that's what I'm asking you.


Okay Fred, where in the reference did it say the frogs were smuggled? 

1) they were listed as exported by Colombia (not imported but exported). 
2) the data (if you read the article) came from CITES permits issued to export from Colombia 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

As I said before Ed, where are all the colombian auratus, vittatus, aurotaenia, bicolor, truncatus, etc.etc. How come only histos, sylvaticus and lehmanni, and possibly minyobates are being smuggled? If they don`t have some control of their borders why aren`t the others coming out in droves like the most smuggled dendro, Auratus. They must be doing more than other places if we can`t even get the most smuggled frog here.

Again, I ask you, if we can`t even control an open desert border from large mammals(people, which are a lot harder to smuggle than frogs) coming over in waves, how do you stop smuggling out of a country like colombia w/ the economy they have? So if our people purchase smuggled goods it`s their(colombias) fault for letting them get stolen and it`s our right to buy these stolen animals? That`s basically what your saying. So America has the right to buy anything stolen from other countries? I didn`t peg you as someone who`d advocate stealing Ed. Basically your saying, if you can steal something and get away(the gov't doesn't catch it) with it, more power to you. 





Ed said:


> Actually Fred, If you paid attention to the context, it was an indication of the failure of the Colombian goverment to protect thier resources. As I've repeatedly noted in this and other threads, there is a lot of evidence (included provided by you) that Colombia is not doing much to stop the habitat destruction, illegal collection and/or smuggling out of the country.
> 
> 
> 
> Until thier habitat is clear cut for a cocoa field, and the resulting toxic chemical dumps from extracting and processing the cocaine from the leaves..
> 
> 
> 
> You may check them out but you have a real problem with comprehension and context. Those were frogs listed as exported on CITES documents from the country of origin.. The country of origin, in this case Colombia had to issue that paperwork.. are you now claiming that the permits for export were not legal? On what basis are you claiming that it true? (A failure to keep copies of permits is not proof). The article is proof that Colombia exported the frogs. You have continually claimed Colombia has not exported despite evidence to the contrary.


----------



## jubjub47

frogfarm said:


> As I said before Ed, where are all the colombian auratus, vittatus, aurotaenia, bicolor, truncatus, etc.etc. How come only histos, sylvaticus and lehmanni, and possibly minyobates are being smuggled? If they don`t have some control of their borders why aren`t the others coming out in droves like the most smuggled dendro, Auratus. They must be doing more than other places if we can`t even get the most smuggled frog here.


Maybe you've answered your own question then. Maybe these histos are not being smuggled if the borders are being controlled so well.

Aaron, I thought you retired from forum posting?


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Again, I ask you, if we can`t even control an open desert border from large mammals(people, which are a lot harder to smuggle than frogs) coming over in waves, how do you stop smuggling out of a country like colombia w/ the economy they have? So if our people purchase smuggled goods it`s their(colombias) fault for letting them get stolen and it`s our right to buy these stolen animals? That`s basically what your saying. So America has the right to buy anything stolen from other countries? I didn`t peg you as someone who`d advocate stealing Ed. Basically your saying, if you can steal something and get away(the gov't doesn't catch it) with it, more power to you.


Aaron,

You could only take the position that I endorse smuggling or theft by really attempting to misconstrue my posts.. 
As I've stated in the post the solution in reality is the same in both cases.. Illegall immegration is illegal leaving of Mexico as well as entering the USA.. I posted this early in the thread as model that works.. and with a little generalization it works. 

) country of origin has to begin to enforce thier laws and allocate the resources towards this enforcement 
2) the affected population has to be shown that the indiscriminate harvesting of the animals or destruction of the habitat is a net loss for them. 
3) a system has to be set up that allows the affected population to benefit as a money making industry off of either the ecosystem as a whole or the animal in question under regulated circumstances (this can be totally sponsored by the country alone or by a joint collaboration of outside interests or a combination of both the country and outside interests). Examples are ecotourism, or some form of controlled export of products (not necessarily the animal itself but related materials (say blowguns etc..) 
4)outside affected countries have to step up enforcement of the illegally trafficked materials and/or animals 

5) In this case and this case only, some form of sustainable harvest. This can be captive bred in a controlled situation or a sustained harvesting of wild frogs or both but it must be controlled and it also needs to benefit the locals where the frogs live in some way or the result is that there is still pressure to smuggle the frogs or cut down the habitat. 

Aaron, continual attacking of me isn't going to get you anywhere. 


Ed


----------



## fred

> I have yet to see you provide any proof/support of this statement. I have seen you make claims about this and then either contradict them yourself (like being aware of huge shipments being put together for export, failing to compel other countries to enforce treaty obligations, failure to notify the various agencies in other countries, lack of enforcement on the ground and so forth) or have them contradicted in the literature.


Ed, That's one problem with smuggling; nobody writes anything down to show what's 'imported'..
So the proof we can find in the hobby itself; like under the tables/ parking/ hotel in the big rept/amp. trade in Germany; all kinds of smuggled frogs species/ morphs you can find there.
These are the same frogs that get exported and legalized to other country's like yours.




> The counter argument could as easily be made the counter argument that the reason people want the drugs and smuggled frogs is because Colombia makes it so easy for the people who pay for them to get them, that Colombia has deliberately set up a marketing program to get people to buy them. In reality, Colombia is acting as an enabler....


So the USA makes it easy to smuggle f.e. Cypripediums?
In Europe there are still regularly species like C. aritinum, candidum, fasciculatum, kentuckiense, montanum, etc. being offered (under the table) which are taken from the wild (big plants that can flower immediatly instead of waiting for many years with seedlings) and are smuggled out of the USA and into Europe..




> Why do you continually try to misdirect the discussion away from Colombia? Were we discussing those countries? This continual redirection is the same as pointing at someone and crying "why can't I do it, they're doing it"


We where also discussing those country's, yeah, cause we are talking about smuggled frogs, and also from many other country's frogs get smuggled.

Why don't you answer my question?
This was my question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fred View Post
So in your opinion all the country's like Costa Rica, Panama, Equador, Peru, Suriname, etc. etc., are responsible for the frogs that get stolen from out of their nature by people from other country's..?



> 1) they were listed as exported by Colombia (not imported but exported).
> 2) the data (if you read the article) came from CITES permits issued to export from Colombia


Sorry, still can't find it..



> Aaron, continual attacking of me isn't going to get you anywhere.


Ed, why do you all the time think people attack you when they don't agree with your statements?
Maybe someone else can be right and you can be wrong sometimes?
Or is that impossible?



> Maybe you've answered your own question then. Maybe these histos are not being smuggled if the borders are being controlled so well.


Jubjub, maybe you can be a little more clear about what you mean by this remark?


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Ed, That's one problem with smuggling; nobody writes anything down to show what's 'imported'..
> So the proof we can find in the hobby itself; like under the tables/ parking/ hotel in the big rept/amp. trade in Germany; all kinds of smuggled frogs species/ morphs you can find there.
> These are the same frogs that get exported and legalized to other country's like yours.


Actually Fred, if they are getting exported to the US, there is a paper trail.. the US will not accept them without CITES documents, which is why Colombia if it chose could readily stop that trade by notifing USF&W.. in addition, if Colombia chose to do so, they could also enforce treaties with Germany.. yet they oddly are silent on both of those actions (which has been noted before..) Can you explain why Colombia has chosen to not act on those avenues? 




fred said:


> So the USA makes it easy to smuggle f.e. Cypripediums?
> In Europe there are still regularly species like C. aritinum, candidum, fasciculatum, kentuckiense, montanum, etc. being offered (under the table) which are taken from the wild (big plants that can flower immediatly instead of waiting for many years with seedlings) and are smuggled out of the USA and into Europe..


Fred, you tried this argument before.. and it still does not hold up on evidence of the massive amount of inexpensive tissue cultured plants that bloom quickly after outflasking. 

For one example... (and there is literature on all of them...)

C. aritinum.. see cultivation techniques that produce large numbers of blooming plants within 2-3 years Project MUSE - Native Plants Journal - Propagation protocol for ram's head lady's slipper ( Cypripedium arietinum ) after outplanting.. 

It is to the point, where a person can readily aquire hybrids of the natives see for example 
olsplst 

In a closed nursery (one that is not engaged in removal of wild plants), CITES permits are not required for flasks of tissue cultured orchids.. see http://www.fws.gov/permits/faqs/FaqNOPQ.shtml. Even presupposing that various parties are not tissue culturing them in the EU (which is ridiculous)... the barrier to export and import of those plants is not that difficult. 
Given the huge legitimate trade in those species, the short time to flowering from out planting, the huge numbers produced artificially, outside of unsubstantiated claims that they are smuggled because they take a long time to bloom etc, you have yet to provide any proof that most of the trade in those species is illegal.. 




fred said:


> We where also discussing those country's, yeah, cause we are talking about smuggled frogs, and also from many other country's frogs get smuggled.


Actually this thread is on WC lehmanni, which does restrict the countries that can be discussed.. You are the one who brought up Colombia.. and so forth. I suspect you want to expand it, to take the heat off of the problems in Colombia... 




fred said:


> Why don't you answer my question?


Because it is not really relevent. We are not discussing smuggled frogs as a general topic but smuggled frogs from Colombia as a specific topic. 

So why have you chosen to ignore my on topic questions such as 
1) why doesn't Colombia enforce thier treaty rights with Germany,
2) why doesn't Colombia enforce thier rights with the USA under the LACY act
3) why don't they follow the proven conservation models to reduce smuggling...






fred said:


> Sorry, still can't find it..



Odd I can find it in the first column on the first page of the article, leading into the second column on the first page, as well as graphically illustrated in the table on the third page where it shows that *Colombia reported exporting Dendrobates to CITES *..... 
.... Can you find it now?


----------



## mantisdragon91

I am relatively new to this thread but I do have a couple of quick questions which pop out at me. If smuggling is so prevalent and so many illegal frogs are indeed in the country from Columbia as both Fred and Aaron seem to claim, then why do we not have desirable frogs and other animals available from other countries say for instance Mexico? As Aaron stated a couple of posts ago, we can't even keep their nationals out.... but they seem to do a pretty good job of keeping their amphibians and reptiles out of this country...

I can think of dozens of species of Mexican Frogs and Lizards I would like to see available but probably never will. Same with Brazil, Costa Rica, Cuba.... etc..etc.

Why are we sure that the few Colombian darts in this country are smuggled when all evidence seems to point to the contrary.


----------



## fred

> Actually Fred, if they are getting exported to the US, there is a paper trail.. the US will not accept them without CITES documents, which is why Colombia if it chose could readily stop that trade by notifing USF&W.. in addition, if Colombia chose to do so, they could also enforce treaties with Germany.. yet they oddly are silent on both of those actions (which has been noted before..) Can you explain why Colombia has chosen to not act on those avenues?
> 
> 
> 
> Ed,
> If there's a paper-trail, why then can nobody show these 'legal' papers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fred, you tried this argument before.. and it still does not hold up on evidence of the massive amount of inexpensive tissue cultured plants that bloom quickly after outflasking.
> 
> For one example... (and there is literature on all of them...)
> 
> C. aritinum.. see cultivation techniques that produce large numbers of blooming plants within 2-3 years Project MUSE - Native Plants Journal - Propagation protocol for ram's head lady's slipper ( Cypripedium arietinum ) after outplanting..
> 
> It is to the point, where a person can readily aquire hybrids of the natives see for example
> olsplst
> 
> In a closed nursery (one that is not engaged in removal of wild plants), CITES permits are not required for flasks of tissue cultured orchids.. see http://www.fws.gov/permits/faqs/FaqNOPQ.shtml. Even presupposing that various parties are not tissue culturing them in the EU (which is ridiculous)... the barrier to export and import of those plants is not that difficult.
> Given the huge legitimate trade in those species, the short time to flowering from out planting, the huge numbers produced artificially, outside of unsubstantiated claims that they are smuggled because they take a long time to bloom etc, you have yet to provide any proof that most of the trade in those species is illegal..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These plants are getting cultured in vitro (done it myself), some of them can bloom in 2-3 years, like C. reginae, but this can also take much longer.
> Still the plants get smuggled and offered in Europe, and people pay good prices for them, and that's a fact.
> 
> Same fact that the smuggled frogs are regularly being offered and also imported in the USA.
> Something that you keep on to deny for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually this thread is on WC lehmanni, which does restrict the countries that can be discussed.. You are the one who brought up Colombia.. and so forth. I suspect you want to expand it, to take the heat off of the problems in Colombia...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's a very cheap answer; you know very well that we are discussing smuggled frogs here, and this thread is a continuation of the other two threads which were closed.
> 
> Ed, it looks like having the last word is more important for you then the subject, no matter what.
> That's a pity, cause it does break down your credibility.
Click to expand...


----------



## fred

Time for something more constructive instead this ends up again in nastyness..

Webwheeler gave the example about dna-testing; I don't know a lot about it, maybe others can say if this is an option or not?
Looks like a good idea to me..


----------



## ChrisK

> Actually Fred, if they are getting exported to the US, there is a paper trail.. the US will not accept them without CITES documents, which is why Colombia if it chose could readily stop that trade by notifing USF&W.. in addition, if Colombia chose to do so, they could also enforce treaties with Germany.. yet they oddly are silent on both of those actions (which has been noted before..) Can you explain why Colombia has chosen to not act on those avenues?
> 
> 
> 
> Ed,
> If there's a paper-trail, why then can nobody show these 'legal' papers?
> 
> 
> Ed, it looks like having the last word is more important for you then the subject, no matter what.
> That's a pity, cause it does break down your credibility.


Maybe it looks that way to you, but to me it looks like he keeps asking the same couple of questions that you won't answer but instead you redirect the conversation and blame to the hobby.


----------



## fred

ChrisK said:


> Maybe it looks that way to you, but to me it looks like he keeps asking the same couple of questions that you won't answer but instead you redirect the conversation and blame to the hobby.



He knows very well that I can't answer questions about what and why the Colombian governement is doing things or not..
That's not for me to answer.

But what we do know is that what any country will do with treaties or whatever, smugglers don't care about nothing and keep on smuggling as long we keep on buying.
If you pay for it, you'll get it.

You can't seal off a complete country, that's ridiculous.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> If there's a paper-trail, why then can nobody show these 'legal' papers?


The importer has them, the exporter has them, and the US goverment has a copy of them. No where is it required for the exporter to supply them to the people who then purchase the frogs. In most cases, the exporters do not share them as this then would allow thier customers to bypass them, if they chose to go that route. I am surprised that you were unaware that this is how it occurs. In addition, if you had bothered to read through the paper you have been attacking in the last couple of posts, you would be able to see that records of shipments can also be aquired through other venues..... 




fred said:


> These plants are getting cultured in vitro (done it myself), some of them can bloom in 2-3 years, like C. reginae, but this can also take much longer.
> Still the plants get smuggled and offered in Europe, and people pay good prices for them, and that's a fact.


And do you have any proof that the plants in question are not tissue cultured as the tissue cultured plants don't have to have a paper trail, etc.? Or are these more unsupported allegations? 



fred said:


> Same fact that the smuggled frogs are regularly being offered and also imported in the USA.
> Something that you keep on to deny for some reason.


Really? The US goverment requires paperwork on imports or they will reject them.. that is the closest I have come to stating anything about the US and smuggling frogs and that statement in no way indicates that frogs cannot be smuggled into the US. I do not deny that smuggled frogs can be offered for sale, but you have yet to prove "regularly offered"... 




fred said:


> That's a very cheap answer; you know very well that we are discussing smuggled frogs here, and this thread is a continuation of the other two threads which were closed.
> 
> Ed, it looks like having the last word is more important for you then the subject, no matter what.
> That's a pity, cause it does break down your credibility.


It is not a cheap answer.. it is one that keeps the discussion on target..

No Fred, having the last word is not important to me and it was not a cheap answer.. providing correct information is important.. which is why I provide citations, and examples as much as possible... It doesn't hurt my crediability as I can continually back up my argument instead of relying on speculation, second hand reports that contradict themselves and available information etc... 

In reality this was another attempt to divert the discussion from the issues posed and a personal attack on me is certainly not going to derail keeping the topic on point. 


Ed


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> He knows very well that I can't answer questions about what and why the Colombian governement is doing things or not..
> That's not for me to answer.
> 
> But what we do know is that what any country will do with treaties or whatever, smugglers don't care about nothing and keep on smuggling as long we keep on buying.
> If you pay for it, you'll get it.
> 
> You can't seal off a complete country, that's ridiculous.


However if they enforced thier rights, then they would be able to crack down on the sales in other countries, recieve compensation etc.. so the fact that they do not is odd... to say the least. 

And I have yet to suggest sealing off an entire country but you have gone on the record as claiming that there is a huge enforcement, checking of papers etc, and once this was pointed out that this should reduce smuggling changed the tune to being unable to secure borders. You are also the person who brought up the foreknowledge of shipments that somehow went unseized out of the country... 

And those aren't the only questions/issues you keep refusing to address or support.... 


Ed


----------



## Boondoggle

I would just like to point something out and then I will return to spectating. Those from "Fred's Camp" and those from "Ed's Camp" seem to be arguing two different points. 

Fred's camp keeps making references to the ethics of the situation (smuggling=condoning stealing, Columbia victimized by richer countries, demand defines supply), whereas Ed and his camp have approached the problem pragmatically (citing data on what has reduced smuggling in the past, and what has not).

One side is arguing about what "should" happen, and the other is arguing about "how it could" happen. A lot has been brought up that has been food for thought, and I have readjusted my personal compass, but you can only attack the problem itself realistically and pragmatically. 

If the only way other countries were effectively able to eliminate smuggling is by cracking down on their own borders, then Columbia is no different. "Should" never comes into it. There will always be smugglers and hobbyists who don't agree with an "ethical" point of view. There will always be demand. 

...Not a reason to throw hands up and abandon the cause, but a realistic fact just the same.


----------



## ChrisK

Boondoggle said:


> I would just like to point something out and then I will return to spectating. Those from "Fred's Camp" and those from "Ed's Camp" seem to be arguing two different points.
> 
> Fred's camp keeps making references to the ethics of the situation (smuggling=condoning stealing, Columbia victimized by richer countries, demand defines supply), whereas Ed and his camp have approached the problem pragmatically (citing data on what has reduced smuggling in the past, and what has not).
> 
> One side is arguing about what "should" happen, and the other is arguing about "how it could" happen. A lot has been brought up that has been food for thought, and I have readjusted my personal compass, but you can only attack the problem itself realistically and pragmatically.
> 
> If the only way other countries were effectively able to eliminate smuggling is by cracking down on their own borders, then Columbia is no different. "Should" never comes into it. There will always be smugglers and hobbyists who don't agree with an "ethical" point of view. There will always be demand.
> 
> ...Not a reason to throw hands up and abandon the cause, but a realistic fact just the same.


Yeah this is correct, and fred's only response to it is, "If noone wants the frogs, then noone will smuggle them"


----------



## Ed

Boondoggle said:


> ).
> 
> If the only way other countries were effectively able to eliminate smuggling is by cracking down on their own borders, then Columbia is no different. "Should" never comes into it. There will always be smugglers and hobbyists who don't agree with an "ethical" point of view. There will always be demand.
> .


Correct, unless the problem is attacked at the root (cost of collection versus income earned elsewhere by the hunter), the end market simply shifts to another group. This is why getting on one forum out of several in the US and claiming that all frogs from a specific country are illegal and that no one should purchase them doesn't change the effect on smuggling as 
1) it does nothing about the economics of the situation
2) the targeted end market is too small to be effective
3) it may actually make the situation worse by increasing perception on the rarity of a species and thus increasing its value (called the Anthropogenic Allee Effect, which has also been noted and referenced elsewheee). 
4) unsupported claims of illegality damage the total claim


Ed


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Ever ask yourself '' why do I keep returning to this thread when the same things were being said 45 pages back?''

I ask myself that all the time....someone please help me.......................

John


----------



## Ed

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ever ask yourself '' why do I keep returning to this thread when the same things were being said 45 pages back?''
> 
> I ask myself that all the time....someone please help me.......................
> 
> John


It could be like picking at a scab... or wiggling a loose tooth... or banging your thumb with a hammer.... 

Ed


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Ed said:


> It could be like picking at a scab... or wiggling a loose tooth... or banging your thumb with a hammer....
> 
> Ed


When it comes to this thread Ed... I choose banging my thumb with a hammer.

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

ChrisK said:


> Yeah this is correct, and fred's only response to it is, "If noone wants the frogs, then noone will smuggle them"


I think boon makes an excellent point here...and that Chris is right, Fred does seem to repeat that basic sentiment a lot. There is some truth to that sentiment but the problem is more complicated then that. That statement is an over simplification of the problem. Also as a suggested fix for the problem it is unrealistic. There will always be some level of demand no matter how much you educate, shun, or arrest people. Yes you want to do what you can to limit that demand and I think that is what Fred is trying to do here, but his approach is flawed, and is likely counter productive to his goals. Also he is attempting to force a very narrow ethical view onto us and passing it off as the ONLY RIGHT VIEW.

I've already heard enough opinions to figure out that we here in the USA at least are still pretty divided on what constitutes a frog that is Illegal and/or unethical to own. Sure most us will say that a frog never legally exported from its country of origin and one that the US government won't grant import papers to is clearly illegal and unethical, but after that there is so many shades of grey. It may not be grey to some, but it is to many. You can't force your view on someone and you definitely can't just wish it all away...unless you have magical powers, in which case please tell me how/where you got them  I'll definitely buy smuggled magic powers!!!


----------



## fred

> It could be like picking at a scab... or wiggling a loose tooth... or banging your thumb with a hammer....
> 
> Ed


If it's so unimportant for you then why you bother?


For all the others; lets look at it from an other vieuw; it is very clear, that the easy part of smuggling is to get something out of a country, also possible is to smuggle something into an other country, but how is it possible also to get it legalized there..??

And how you get many people who know about this to look the other way?
And even approve it..


----------



## edwardsatc

Ed said:


> According to Gorzula, Stefan;1996; The trade in dendrobatid frogs from 1987 to 1993; Herpetological Review 27(3): 116-123; Colombia has exported dendrobatids legally.
> 
> 
> Folks we've been down this road several times over and despite Fred's continued claims that Colombia has never legally exported the species in question, the literature and quotas do not support his assertion of Colombia never having legally exported frogs. For those who have not wallowed (and I am deliberately using that term) through the other threads, I suggest that they review them before continuing the discussion here..)
> 
> This statement should not be construed to mean that these frogs are also not smuggled as there is evidence of this occuring..


Can someone provide me with the PDF of this journal article?

How many _D. histrionicus_ does the author claim to have been legally exported from Colombia? Colombia joined CITES in 1981. Since then CITES reports the gross export of the species as 11 individuals.

Thousands were exported out of *Ecuador *in the mid 90's.


----------



## fred

Hi Dave,

And I keep on repeating that something is seriously wrong in this hobby, and we must do something about it.
It doesn't mean it has to be done like I say, there are maybe other ways, but then come up with it and do something about it..
Also, If nobody talks about it, for sure nothing's going to happen.

About these smuggled magic powers; you could try tiger-bones, these are still being smuggled into China, it must be possible to import them from there and get them even legalized too..


----------



## Philsuma

Anyone care to take a wild-azz guess as to approximately how many histrionicus (legal or otherwise) are alive and in the US hobby right now?

100

1,000

10,000 


?


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> And I keep on repeating that something is seriously wrong in this hobby, and we must do something about it.
> It doesn't mean it has to be done like I say, there are maybe other ways, but then come up with it and do something about it..
> Also, If nobody talks about it, for sure nothing's going to happen.
> 
> About these smuggled magic powers; you could try tiger-bones, these are still being smuggled into China, it must be possible to import them from there and get them even legalized too..


Ok I basically accept all that...but Fred do you understand that you have come off in such a way as to seem like you are basically accusing most of us of doing nothing at best and at worst actually supporting smuggling directly or indirectly? Attempting to educate people about the situation is one thing, throwing around misinformation, vague accusations and unrealistic fixes for the problem during that attempt to educate does not serve your cause, nor does it do wonders for your personal credibility. 

Especially when later you said that "they should all probably be legal once they get here" or something basically to that effect. You basically said that much of what you were speaking out against is actually ok in your mind...which begs the question "Why were you speaking out against it in the first place?". When you made that statement you just condoned almost everything you've been accusing us of condoning and saying how shameful it was.

I've seen no evidence for the magical effects of Tiger bones....perhaps if they were dragon bones, I would believe they had a shot a bestowing magical powers. Because everyone knows that dragons just don't use magic, THEY ARE MAGIC... but till someone finds real bones of flying fire breathing dragons it is a mute point


----------



## Ed

edwardsatc said:


> Can someone provide me with the PDF of this journal article?
> 
> How many _D. histrionicus_ does the author claim to have been legally exported from Colombia? Colombia joined CITES in 1981. Since then CITES reports the gross export of the species as 11 individuals.
> 
> Thousands were exported out of *Ecuador *in the mid 90's.


The paper doesn't break it down by species but one has to also keep in mind that there won't be any data prior to 1987 which if I remember correctly, is the first year that dendrobatids were listed as appendix 2. 


I was simply using it to refute the claim that Colombia has never exported dendrobates. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

edwardsatc said:


> Can someone provide me with the PDF of this journal article?
> 
> How many _D. histrionicus_ does the author claim to have been legally exported from Colombia? Colombia joined CITES in 1981. Since then CITES reports the gross export of the species as 11 individuals.
> 
> Thousands were exported out of *Ecuador *in the mid 90's.


In addition according to the CITES trade database Colombia reported exporting 2850 Dendrobates ssp.. (in other words not identified down to the species level) in 1993. 
Ecuador reported exporting 5840 D. histrionicus from 1994-1997. 

The Ecuador groups in particular are well within possible lifespans. 


Ed


----------



## poison beauties

Philsuma said:


> Anyone care to take a wild-azz guess as to approximately how many histrionicus (legal or otherwise) are alive and in the US hobby right now?
> 
> 100
> 
> 1,000
> 
> 10,000
> 
> 
> ?


I personally know its well over a hundred and they are legal or from legal older lines. I would be hesitant to say a thousand.

Michael


----------



## billschwinn

Like it or not , I have to say you are not going to beat us into your way of thinking. Points have been made, lines are drawn , the end, no one is budging. This thread is like a bad fungal rash, the more you scratch the worse it gets!You cant dazzle us with brilliance, and won't baffle us with your bulls.....!


----------



## NathanB

580 posts yet i still dont see where I can go and buy some WC Lehmanni. I feel cheated


----------



## fred

> Ok I basically accept all that...but Fred do you understand that you have come off in such a way as to seem like you are basically accusing most of us of doing nothing at best and at worst actually supporting smuggling directly or indirectly? Attempting to educate people about the situation is one thing, throwing around misinformation, vague accusations and unrealistic fixes for the problem during that attempt to educate does not serve your cause, nor does it do wonders for your personal credibility.


Hi Dave,

I don't know where you got the idea that I'm accusing most of you over there..but if you think that, it is a big misunderstanding.
On the opposite; I respect a lot of good threads here on the forum, and I think the hobby is quite big overthere and many people are very serious with their hobby.

The whole thing started with illegal frogs being exposed on this forum, which made me read more threads (you yourself was referring to one of these threads) where some people openly talk about owning histrionica's, etc. and about them coming in (while accidental these frogs at the same moment were smuggled into Germany) and one of the persons who offers them was arrested in Holland for trying to sell these illegal frogs on the parking-place at the frog-day..

I'm not throwing around mis-information; I think for some people overthere it's hard to hear and accept what is going on, but then, don't turn the story around and blame it on me.



> Especially when later you said that "they should all probably be legal once they get here" or something basically to that effect. You basically said that much of what you were speaking out against is actually ok in your mind...which begs the question "Why were you speaking out against it in the first place?". When you made that statement you just condoned almost everything you've been accusing us of condoning and saying how shameful it was.


I know English is not my native language, but I try to do my best to be understandable; important is that something must happen right now, cause frogs are being wiped out.

Less important is to punish smugglers or dealers or hobbyist who buy them; we just need to find a solution right now.

Conviscate frogs overthere is likely not going to happen, and also probably not good for the frogs like some allready mentioned; there need to be good shelters for these animals, otherwise they are gone to waste.
So I said; maybe it is an idea to let the people who have these frogs now (no matter legal or illegal) keep them, but registrate them, so after this date, you can for sure say that all the other frogs coming in this way are for sure not legal.
That would reduce the smuggling a lot, and the people who keep these frogs have no reason not to co-operate.
It's just an idea; maybe not the best one, but then; come with better ideas..!!
Must be possible; you're one of the most developed country's in the world, with many very smart people..



> I've seen no evidence for the magical effects of Tiger bones....perhaps if they were dragon bones, I would believe they had a shot a bestowing magical powers. Because everyone knows that dragons just don't use magic, THEY ARE MAGIC... but till someone finds real bones of flying fire breathing dragons it is a mute point


I also doubt about the magic effects of tiger bones, pity many others do believe in it..it means the end of the tigers in the wild.
And it shows that if these big animals are still being poached while everything is done to protect them, how do people want to do that with our tiny little frogs..
The problems lies in China, where the government doesn't care about it. (check out national geografic, big undercover-operation to expose the smuggling-route)

Dragons, they belong in fairy-tales, together with the legal histrionicus papers..


----------



## fred

poison beauties said:


> I personally know its well over a hundred and they are legal or from legal older lines. I would be hesitant to say a thousand.
> 
> Michael



Hi Michael,
Changed your mind?
A few posts ago you made this statement:




> Im not stupid, I know there are alot of smuggled frogs here. I also know of many who have bred these frogs and sent them around the hobby. If you dont know who has what and how many of the legal papered ones you will never know how many smuggled ones are here. None of us will.


----------



## poison beauties

My mind has not changed but the fact is I have seen a hundred or more of these frogs in my time in this hobby and more before when I was breeding herps and trading them down in Florida with the guys down in the deerfield. Those statements do not cancel one onother out if that is what your thinking. I know there are alot of smuggled frogs here but I am one who saw them come in through regular legal imports to pet stores and such.
I do not know how many are here and I definately do not know of all the illegal and legal lines, morphs and species here. I can only say I have seen a hundred or so of these frogs in the past ten years. I can only guess I have only seen a fraction of what is around. Like I said I have bought none, legal or not. Passed on them all and to be honest I wish I would have traded or sold my albino boa collection back in the later 90's when I had a chance to grab some of these frogs up. Trust me, You would hate to know what I have passed on over the years but who cares, I answered the question. I passed on the frogs when they were in front of me.

Michael


----------



## fred

poison beauties said:


> My mind has not changed but the fact is I have seen a hundred or more of these frogs in my time in this hobby and more before when I was breeding herps and trading them down in Florida with the guys down in the deerfield. Those statements do not cancel one onother out if that is what your thinking. I know there are alot of smuggled frogs here but I am one who saw them come in through regular legal imports to pet stores and such.
> I do not know how many are here and I definately do not know of all the illegal and legal lines, morphs and species here. I can only say I have seen a hundred or so of these frogs in the past ten years. I can only guess I have only seen a fraction of what is around. Like I said I have bought none, legal or not. Passed on them all and to be honest I wish I would have traded or sold my albino boa collection back in the later 90's when I had a chance to grab some of these frogs up. Trust me, You would hate to know what I have passed on over the years but who cares, I answered the question. I passed on the frogs when they were in front of me.
> 
> Michael


Well, a good thing is that you have the guts to be open and honest about it and don't deny it like some others are doing here.

Only I would not be so sure about the legality of the so called legal imports in pet-stores..
They were also in Europe 'legal' for sale in pet-stores, but it turned out that they were not so legal as the petshop owners was told..and some of them knew they were not legal.

The poachers were very creative in selling these illegal frogs, the laws were not sufficient (it seems they still aren't), so that was a open road for smuggling.

Now the selling in shops is as good as gone, it's too hot, but who needs a shop to sell them when you've got the internet..
Just send the lists around in the 'circel of trust' when there are new caught frogs (8 months old c.b. they call them mostly) available.
Offcourse with 'papers'.


----------



## poison beauties

Look, I have said nothing that any seasoned frogger does not know. I have no problem with your quest to end smuggling but the blame thing is all wrong. How do you know what is legal? Answer me that. I just happen to be one of the people who read this and have no issue speaking my mind as Im clean and clear with my collection but I guarentee I would walk away from this hobby before I said anything about another froggers collection as Im not like you. I dont throw out blame unless I have proof. I still wonder why you have such a big interest in this subject when you are the only one who is planning to release these frogs into the hobby which will open up the floodgates of what is hidden away in collections. 
I have passed on many frogs in my time in this hobby and to be honest Im tired of trying to explain how this will end with your plans. If you have been around as long as you say you have then you know the minute the histo's you export breed there will frogs of this catigory up for sale on the open boards and you will never know whats been here. How will you throw around blame then? 
I will not respond to this thread again.

Michael


----------



## Brien

Im tired of this being the only thing to read here! Can some one bring back the mixed species question havent read anything about that in awhile? This is not helping expand the hobby to new people that come to this forum. Fred if your that worried about it maybe you should consult with your government about it. Why bitch about it if you can not do anything about it?


----------



## fred

markbudde said:


> I'm surprised how many people are OK with buying WC smuggled frogs.



What Markbudde is saying here, is exactly what I was thinking when I visited this forum the first time.

Another thing that surprises me a lot is that almost nobody here have the courage to speak their mind about it, like markbudde here does..
Or do you all really don't care?

Cause the others who probably don't care about it are far in the majority here with their responds..and mostly not to friendly..

So what's the situation over there? is it true that most of you don't care, or are you just not responding?
It gets more and more unclear to me..

I should not point others on there mistake to buy these smuggled frogs, but what then? should I just sit stil and keep quiet while they are being wiped out because of this.

People are looking away too much; when someone gets kicked down in the street, everybody has his cellphone with camera ready to make a video instead of helping that person..
In my opinion if you turn a blind eye, but you clearly know what's going on, you're just as guilty.
It's a little bit of an extreme example, but maybe then people understand what I mean.

Dave:
Well, I hate to say it, but what am I to think about the situation in the hobby overthere as this kind of reactions are still in the majority:




> '580 posts yet i still dont see where I can go and buy some WC Lehmanni. I feel cheated' (bussardnr)
> 
> 'Like it or not , I have to say you are not going to beat us into your way of thinking. Points have been made, lines are drawn , the end, no one is budging. This thread is like a bad fungal rash, the more you scratch the worse it gets!You cant dazzle us with brilliance, and won't baffle us with your bulls.....!' (billschwinn)


 
Should it make me think; 'wow, these people are really doing a good job there'?

Instaed of blaming me, blame your fellow-froggers for their attitude.


And Bussardnr; maybe you've missed it, but the lehmanni is in all propability allready wiped out as a result of this attitude.
Be proud on your hobby.


----------



## Dendro Dave

I have to admit I am suprised how many people are willing to buy frogs and import them even with legit legal papers, when the origins of the frogs are often very questionable. I'm still unsure what side of the ethical question I fall to but I am leaning towards staying away from frogs imported from the EU on a case by case basis depending on the circumstances surrounding that particular morph/species and how likely the frogs I'm getting were to have come from smuggled animals or were smuggled themselves at some time. 

But with legal papers, the frogs are basically legal to own, so while I may find the ethics questionable I don't really feel like I have the right in most cases to say anything to people since its up to them to determine what they feel is right in that case even if I don't agree with it...they aren't breaking the law of this country at least. Now in the case of clearly smuggled illegal animals then sure we should all be speaking out...but if the origins are questionable we don't really have much right to accuse someone without proof. It goes back to what i said before. We can only really say "I'm not comfortable with the origins of many of that species/morph especially coming from the EU and Germany in particular or you posting them" without crossing an ethical line ourselves...IMO. I am willing to grant that those who feel that way should possibly be saying so more often here. So I'll do my part right now...

To Chrisk, and others with frogs that have been recently imported from the EU who seem to have questionable origins, while I have nothing against you on a personal basis, without more knowledge of the orgins of these frogs and working under the assumption that at least a large number of these frogs if not yours specifically are from an illegal origin I personally would not be comfortable buying them and have some reservations about people posting such frogs on the forum, but best of luck to you and your animals.

That is really the most I feel I can say without crossing an ethical line myself. Hope I haven't made any enemies and no one hates me...but that is my opinion at least for now and I stand by it. I've already stated why I feel red galacts and other such frogs are a different issue and fine now so without a really convincing argument I won't be changing my mind about that and there is no need to throw my ownership of those back into my face,.. if that was anyone's plan (No idea if it was though)


----------



## Ed

Dave,



Dendro Dave said:


> I have to admit I am suprised how many people are willing to buy frogs and import them even with legit legal papers, when the origins of the frogs are often very questionable. I'm still unsure what side of the ethical question I fall to but I am leaning towards staying away from frogs imported from the EU on a case by case basis depending on the circumstances surrounding that particular morph/species and how likely the frogs I'm getting were to have come from smuggled animals or were smuggled themselves at some time.


When looking at these issues one has to also look back into the history at specific issues for example as noted above in 1993, Colombia reported (to CITES) exporting 2850 Dendrobates species. This means that they could legally have been any of the species native to Colombia, including but not limited to lehmanni, auratus, terriblis, histronicus etc. There isn't going to be anything listed as to what they were anywhere as it wasn't/isn't required on any of the permits. So technically any or all of those species could have been imported legally in the early 90s.

As a second further complication, the importations of frogs as one species before they known to be a second species also allows for legal exportation of the frogs. One cannot presume for example that lehmanni and sylvatica were never exported as they were both formally considered types of histrionica.. and could have been exported as part of the shipment noted above of Dendrobates ssp. 


This is something that seems to get glossed over in a number of the arguments as it makes it difficult to point at an animal and say Colombia never issued a export permit so it must be illegal.. however it could have been exported (or descended from) a frog exported before the species were seperated or it could have been exported as just Dendrobates. 
It also does not mean that someone should just be able to say it was captive bred from those imports. The problem is that there is no quantification as to which morphs much less species were exported when, Colombia itself has muddied those waters potentially past all recall. It isn't a good situation but that is where it realistically falls out. 



Dendro Dave said:


> But with legal papers, the frogs are basically legal to own


That of course is open to reinterpretation by USF&W. If there is sufficient evidence to show that the animals were exported illegally and it can be shown that they were shipped under false pretenses, the import paperwork can be revoked. However when one looks at the history, there is a significant burden of proof. As noted above, this could be rectified by DNA testing and other methods. 

As a further item, this is why the failure of the goverment of Colombia to take the appropriate actions is enabling the problem to escalate.. and it will escalate until the economics cause it to become rare enough that the hunters can't make enough money to collect it... 


Ed


----------



## NDokai

Fred,

I think that you are mistaking our comments. NOBODY has come out and said anything directly supporting smuggling frogs, or buying obviously smuggled frogs. Just because we disagree with you, does not mean that we are hiding smuggled frogs, or support smuggling. A reasonable person would have acknowledged that by now. We all understand that it is our responsibility to refuse to buy smuggled frogs, but it has been said over and over, that this alone will not work. This is the main point that we don't agree on. It is easier to put slippers on , than to carpet the whole world. 
To respond to your example about home invasion, 
Is it easier to lock your door, or try to find your stolen TV at a local pawn shop? 
We, can all refuse to buy smuggled frogs. Globally, that will not effect demand for smuggled frogs all that much. The vast majority are being smuggled to Europe, and Asia. If the supply of these smuggled frogs is not reduced or eliminated, there will be no point. Smugglers will sell them to whoever will buy them, wherever it may be. Histrionicus, Lehmanni, and Sylvaticus, will all go extinct in the wild before the GLOBAL market is satisfied, if nothing more is done at the source.

Most of us here simply believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. If we can't prove guilt, we won't start jumping to conclusions and pointing fingers. That doesn't make us irresponsible, or unethical hobbyists. That doesn't mean that the hobby is in "sad shape" "over here". We are an international forum, with a lot of members who do a lot of good, much more than simply complaining on the internet. I take it personally when you talk down to us, as a community. If you are too good for all of us, than please move on.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> Dave,
> 
> 
> 
> When looking at these issues one has to also look back into the history at specific issues for example as noted above in 1993, Colombia reported (to CITES) exporting 2850 Dendrobates species. This means that they could legally have been any of the species native to Colombia, including but not limited to lehmanni, auratus, terriblis, histronicus etc. There isn't going to be anything listed as to what they were anywhere as it wasn't/isn't required on any of the permits. So technically any or all of those species could have been imported legally in the early 90s.
> 
> As a second further complication, the importations of frogs as one species before they known to be a second species also allows for legal exportation of the frogs. One cannot presume for example that lehmanni and sylvatica were never exported as they were both formally considered types of histrionica.. and could have been exported as part of the shipment noted above of Dendrobates ssp.
> 
> 
> This is something that seems to get glossed over in a number of the arguments as it makes it difficult to point at an animal and say Colombia never issued a export permit so it must be illegal.. however it could have been exported (or descended from) a frog exported before the species were seperated or it could have been exported as just Dendrobates.
> It also does not mean that someone should just be able to say it was captive bred from those imports. The problem is that there is no quantification as to which morphs much less species were exported when, Colombia itself has muddied those waters potentially past all recall. It isn't a good situation but that is where it realistically falls out.
> 
> 
> 
> That of course is open to reinterpretation by USF&W. If there is sufficient evidence to show that the animals were exported illegally and it can be shown that they were shipped under false pretenses, the import paperwork can be revoked. However when one looks at the history, there is a significant burden of proof. As noted above, this could be rectified by DNA testing and other methods.
> 
> As a further item, this is why the failure of the goverment of Colombia to take the appropriate actions is enabling the problem to escalate.. and it will escalate until the economics cause it to become rare enough that the hunters can't make enough money to collect it...
> 
> 
> Ed


Those are all important points Ed, and I thank you for making them. It was the possibility of points like that, that led me to take a position of taking each species/morph on a case by case basis, with a healthy level of skepticism towards most EU frogs.

So far few of the frogs that have come in through comercial or well known private breeders from the EU have been of real interest to me personally. Didn't orange lamasi come from there? and vanzos? I think those are about the only 2 I have any interest in, and orange lamasi have bred and spread like rabbits so I'm kinda of the position it is to late to limit the spread of that frog in the hobby. I'm actually not a huge fan of most of the histronicus or lehmanni morphs that I've seen in the hobby...though some that are not in the hobby or only are in very small numbers are nice (though the particular ones I'm thinking of probably are of smuggled origin).

There are to many frogs I want before those though so unless they are part of some really great deal including some of my must have frogs I doubt I'll ever get any. If it looks like I might then I'll do further research into them if I haven't picked up the info by then to make an ethical determination. For now I'll probably be sticking to what has already been here for some time or understory/inibico type frogs.


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## NathanB

> And Bussardnr; maybe you've missed it, but the lehmanni is in all propability allready wiped out as a result of this attitude.
> Be proud on your hobby.


Does that make this whore thread even more pointless.....

I am proud, The hobby in the US is great.


----------



## billschwinn

NDokai , wow! yOU Have said in plain english a beautiful summary of everything that needed to be said or should be said on this subject, truly amazing. If Fred still can't understand the situation after reading your post he never will get it, and it will become evident he just wants to argue. Stick a fork in it, it is done!


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## fred

> When looking at these issues one has to also look back into the history at specific issues for example as noted above in 1993, Colombia reported (to CITES) exporting 2850 Dendrobates species. This means that they could legally have been any of the species native to Colombia, including but not limited to lehmanni, auratus, terriblis, histronicus etc. There isn't going to be anything listed as to what they were anywhere as it wasn't/isn't required on any of the permits. So technically any or all of those species could have been imported legally in the early 90s.


Dave; when I read this kind of statements, I believe to think maybe there is a chance dragon-bones exist....

Back in the beginning of the ninetees about everybody (at least in Europe) allready knew that frogs like histrionica and lehmanni where not getting exported legal, and we could only get them by the smugglers.




> That of course is open to reinterpretation by USF&W. If there is sufficient evidence to show that the animals were exported illegally and it can be shown that they were shipped under false pretenses, the import paperwork can be revoked. However when one looks at the history, there is a significant burden of proof. As noted above, this could be rectified by DNA testing and other methods.


Ed, here in this last part you say something sensible about DNA testing, etc.; the problem is, who is going to check if these frogs are not legal, who is going to do the tests, who is going to say only one word about it, if it is totally not allowed to talk or think about it that people can have illegal frogs????



> Is it easier to lock your door, or try to find your stolen TV at a local pawn shop?


Hi Ndokai; I think nobody leaves home without locking the door, and still TV's get stolen, specially if it is an expensive one..



> We, can all refuse to buy smuggled frogs. Globally, that will not effect demand for smuggled frogs all that much.


Ndokai; So if we all refuse to buy these frogs -Globally-, to who do the smugglers still going to sell them??

Again; I don't want to step nobody on the toes, but some people have such big toes here..ooohhh, sorry..don't get angry for that..didn't mean to offend people..
What is the problem; I can say nothing here, but others can offend me in the most horrible way you can think of....but no problem, my skin is thick enough to survive it.

Just try to make a conversation here without feeling attacked all the time..
I allready told you that I'm not some kind of crazy anti-American or whatever; I drive a Chevy, like southern rock a lot, and my brother lives in the US for most of his live, so don't tell me I'm attacking your country.

I'm just another hobbyist who is very worried about these frogs, which allready suffer hard times to survive without this smuggling going on.
You don't have to take anything personally; I don't even know you!!
I'm not pretending to be better then anybody else, I made/ and make a lot of misstakes, but I allways do try to learn from it. (and also that doesn't work out allways..)
That's it.


----------



## Dendro Dave

I think there is definately more chance of magical Dragons existing then Ed being wrong about his sources  And the point he made about those unnamed species is perfectly valid. 

The "WE" you need to worry about the least Fred is the people on this board and other USA boards...its the people not on those boards and those in other countries where these practices are more acceptable that are the biggest source of the problem. I suggest reaching out to them more.


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## fred

bussardnr said:


> Does that make this whore thread even more pointless.....
> 
> I am proud, The hobby in the US is great.


Bussardnr;

Your words just give me more motivation..
These words exactly point out why this thread should go on.


----------



## fred

Dendro Dave said:


> I think there is definately more chance of magical Dragons existing then Ed being wrong about his sources  And the point he made about those unnamed species is perfectly valid.
> 
> The "WE" you need to worry about the least Fred is the people on this board and other USA boards...its the people not on those boards and those in other countries where these practices are more acceptable that are the biggest source of the problem. I suggest reaching out to them more.



Dave, maybe that is a good plan to carry out this information and alert other clubs world-wide how this hobby can escalate.
Though, maybe this is not even necessary; it seems that allready many people are watching this soap opera..

And to inform you; there's other country's where these practices for sure are not acceptable....and where people are amazed to read this.

Also I still don't think the ones here on this forum are speaking for the majority of the people in the hobby in your country, I just think some here rule this forum in such a intimidating way that not much others dare to go against it..


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Back in the beginning of the ninetees about everybody (at least in Europe) allready knew that frogs like histrionica and lehmanni where not getting exported legal, and we could only get them by the smugglers.


This statement conviently ignores that 2850 unspecified Dendrobates species were exported from Colombia in 1993 as reported by Colombia to the CITES authorities by issuing CITES permits. 
If you wish to register with the CITES organization, you can readily pull this up from thier trade data base but 

Lets see if I can get it to copy onto here.. 

Taxon	Term	Unit	Country 1990 1991 1992	1993	1994	
Dendrobates spp.	live CO 0 0 0 2850 3

It looks fine on the draft but I can't get them to line up right on the final form. 

As noted in the above report from Colombia, lehmanni and/or histrionica could have simply been exported as Dendrobates ssp.. there is no way to prove the claim that they were only available from smugglers as Colombia was actively exporting dendrobatids... 




fred said:


> Ed, here in this last part you say something sensible about DNA testing, etc.; the problem is, who is going to check if these frogs are not legal, who is going to do the tests, who is going to say only one word about it, if it is totally not allowed to talk or think about it that people can have illegal frogs????


It would have to be a govermental agency, as they are the ones who enforce the laws. 
It would also require the cooperation of the Colombian goverment. 

Ed


----------



## fred

Ed said:


> This statement conviently ignores that 2850 unspecified Dendrobates species were exported from Colombia in 1993 as reported by Colombia to the CITES authorities by issuing CITES permits.
> If you wish to register with the CITES organization, you can readily pull this up from thier trade data base but
> 
> Lets see if I can get it to copy onto here..
> 
> Taxon	Term	Unit	Country 1990 1991 1992	1993	1994
> Dendrobates spp.	live CO 0 0 0 2850 3
> 
> It looks fine on the draft but I can't get them to line up right on the final form.
> 
> As noted in the above report from Colombia, lehmanni and/or histrionica could have simply been exported as Dendrobates ssp.. there is no way to prove the claim that they were only available from smugglers as Colombia was actively exporting dendrobatids...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would have to be a govermental agency, as they are the ones who enforce the laws.
> It would also require the cooperation of the Colombian goverment.
> 
> Ed



Ed; I think you agree with me that the description of the exported frogs is very summary; at least the name of the species should be mentioned..

I can see what I can do here to find out what kind of export this was, it will take a while.
The information says nothing about histrionica or lehmanni or whatever.

There has been very big imports in different country's of smuggled frogs in the past, it still goes on, and we should not turn in circles around the reality.
In our hobby nowadays these practices should not occur anymore.
We should know better then that.
For now I will leave it by this.

Although maybe if you can find more of these exports, I would like to hear it, maybe there's something to do with it.


----------



## ChrisK

Dendro Dave said:


> To Chrisk, and others with frogs that have been recently imported from the EU who seem to have questionable origins, while I have nothing against you on a personal basis, without more knowledge of the orgins of these frogs and working under the assumption that at least a large number of these frogs if not yours specifically are from an illegal origin I personally would not be comfortable buying them and have some reservations about people posting such frogs on the forum, but best of luck to you and your animals.
> 
> That is really the most I feel I can say without crossing an ethical line myself. Hope I haven't made any enemies and no one hates me...but that is my opinion at least for now and I stand by it. I've already stated why I feel red galacts and other such frogs are a different issue and fine now so without a really convincing argument I won't be changing my mind about that and there is no need to throw my ownership of those back into my face,.. if that was anyone's plan (No idea if it was though)


Well I'm not throwing it in your face, but my opinion is that anyone with unquestionably 100% illegal frogs really shouldn't be critical of anyone who doesn't own unquestionably 100% illegal frogs, just the fact that they breed doesn't change the fact that they or their parents were smuggled frogs and they themselves are illegal frogs, it doesn't really make much sense that it would make anyone have reservations about someone posting a "gray" area frog but it would be perfectly fine to post a 100% unquestionably illegal frog.


----------



## Dendro Dave

ChrisK said:


> Well I'm not throwing it in your face, but my opinion is that anyone with unquestionably 100% illegal frogs really shouldn't be critical of anyone who doesn't own unquestionably 100% illegal frogs, just the fact that they breed doesn't change the fact that they or their parents were smuggled frogs and they themselves are illegal frogs, it doesn't really make much sense that it would make anyone have reservations about someone posting a "gray" area frog but it would be perfectly fine to post a 100% unquestionably illegal frog.


As I said In my mind at least there is enough of a distinction to be made between that frog given the difference in circumstances verses many of the newer frogs Coming in from The EU to allow me to be comfortable owning it ethically. That doesn't mean I approve of how they got here in the first place or condone it happening again with other species/morphs.

Just a few of the differences in my mind are the fact it has already been here since the 90's and is way more common then histrionica or lehmanni, is sold by several well respected commercial breeders and it seems that in most peoples minds the general consensus is the frog is fine to own as long as it is USA CB bred. Also according to saurian.net they originally came here from the EU with Legal papers just like the histrios and stuff are now that we can be sure that at least some of the frogs were smuggled or from smuggled parents which that right there pretty much puts them on equal ethical footing as the histronica and stuff coming in now.

Plus now the climate is different, we know a lot more about what is going on in S. america and in the Eu, the ecology, the smuggling practices...all of it, that there is no reason and fewer excuses for what happened with red galacts to happen again. It seems now there is even more reason to discourage it then there was then. The reds aren't going anywhere, and maybe the histrionica or lehmanni aren't either...but how often are we going to repeat the same mistake? Add all that together with the fact that they came here with legal paper work like the EU histrionica or lehmanni and in my mind they go beyond being on nearly the same ethical footing as many of the more recent EU frogs to surpassing them substantially in favor of being a more ethical frog to own. 

That is my opinion, and it probably didn't change yours..and thats ok. Like I said I have nothing against you or others with such frogs I just have some reservation about that one particular choice you made....as you may have about my choice. Hell I have had a lot of reservations about some of my choices both before and after I made them...usually involved a pretty girl trying to talk me into something 

Now if someone buys frogs they KNOW 100% are smuggled, and were not brought to the USA with legal papers...well screw them. And probably screw the people that KNOW 100% that the frog they are importing from the EU with legal papers is smuggled. I'm willing to pretty much give everyone else the benefit of the doubt as to not being a complete piece of $#!%


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Ed; I think you agree with me that the description of the exported frogs is very summary; at least the name of the species should be mentioned..
> .


According to the CITES site, the only designation supplied was for Dendrobates ssp. The export did not designate species.. there is an option to designate species but in that case it was not utilized. That can occur when there are either multiple species or species that are difficult to seperate as long as all of them are permitted for export. This prevents legal exports from being seized on arrival in the importing company due to difficult in identifying cryptic species by inspection agents. 

I have some stong doubts that you will be able to locate the exact species exported in a manner that can be verified (such as the original export permit). 

Ed


----------



## jubjub47

fred said:


> Ed; I think you agree with me that the description of the exported frogs is very summary; at least the name of the species should be mentioned..


I think that the country of export is the one that should have been worried about that at the time of export. It's kinda hard to believe that a country that doesn't even care what species of animals are leaving really cares about the animals as a whole.


----------



## fred

Ed said:


> According to the CITES site, the only designation supplied was for Dendrobates ssp. The export did not designate species.. there is an option to designate species but in that case it was not utilized. That can occur when there are either multiple species or species that are difficult to seperate as long as all of them are permitted for export. This prevents legal exports from being seized on arrival in the importing company due to difficult in identifying cryptic species by inspection agents.
> 
> I have some stong doubts that you will be able to locate the exact species exported in a manner that can be verified (such as the original export permit).
> 
> Ed


I would say, a cites-document with no specific species on it is worthless and stands for nothing; you can fill in anything there..
How such a document can occur I find a mystery; cause to ex- and import animals or plants, you need to specify the species very accurate.

I have some friends in Holland who have a shop; and they are very carefull that there are no other species of animals in the import they order (specially exporters from Africa have the habbit to put something else in the order if they don't have the species that's ordered), cause there is a chance that the authorities will confiscate everything if it's not correct.
I asume in other country's these rules are the same, because cites is a international trade-agreement.

This document proves nothing about histrionicus, lehmanni or whatever being exported legal; it's worthless.

That it gets out of the country of export with this designation I can maybe imagine, but that it gets accepted at the customs in the country of import I can not imagine..

This should not be accepted, and for sure not prevent it from being seized....it gives a good reason to confiscate it....


----------



## NathanB

There are situations where the species has yet to be described, which means it has no species name


----------



## Dendro Dave

bussardnr said:


> There are situations where the species has yet to be described, which means it has no species name


Or as Ed already stated the species/morphs look so similar they would be difficult to identify and separate so they don't list the individual species that way a perfectly legal shipment doesn't run into issues.


----------



## fred

jubjub47 said:


> I think that the country of export is the one that should have been worried about that at the time of export. It's kinda hard to believe that a country that doesn't even care what species of animals are leaving really cares about the animals as a whole.


By the way, Tim; I can imagine that one export could slip through somewhere, somehow; but many shady imports into a country that keep on slippin' through from the ninetees up to now, is something else..
That's something structurally wrong.

Don't say I accuse your country from something; it's all information that is given here in this thread, by honest people who know about it.


Where is it registered about all the 'legal' histrionica's and lehmanni's that were imported and sold in shops back in the ninetees??
That should be somewhere in the cites-lists..can't find it..you maybe?


----------



## fred

bussardnr said:


> There are situations where the species has yet to be described, which means it has no species name



Well, so it were no histrionica's or lehmanni's, they were discribed allready long before 1993....
So you got 2850 frogs from a new species there, interesting..


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> By the way, Tim; I can imagine that one export could slip through somewhere, somehow; but many shady imports into a country that keep on slippin' through from the ninetees up to now, is something else..
> That's something structurally wrong.
> 
> Don't say I accuse your country from something; it's all information that is given here in this thread, by honest people who know about it.
> 
> 
> Where is it registered about all the 'legal' histrionica's and lehmanni's that were imported and sold in shops back in the ninetees??
> That should be somewhere in the cites-lists..can't find it..you maybe?


Fred that is what Ed was trying to explain...If the frogs came in they came in as dendrobates sp. only...not by the names histrionica or lehmanni. Back then they didn't always name the specific species being shipped...This wasn't smugglers who were doing this. This was the government of the country the frogs came from that called them dendrobates sp. One of the reasons they did this was because many frogs look similar and the Columbian government didn't want a perfectly legal shipment of frogs to run into issues, or get seized. ...Or so that was the understanding I got from what Ed said. I'm sure he'll correct me if I am wrong....and I'll be glad for it unlike some


----------



## fred

Dendro Dave said:


> Or as Ed already stated the species/morphs look so similar they would be difficult to identify and separate so they don't list the individual species that way a perfectly legal shipment doesn't run into issues.


If the cites-system would work like that it would have completely no value, and anything could be imported under just a family-name..

That's the whole point; they have to know exactly what gets imported, otherwise it should not be able to enter the country.

And I think that in 1993 they very well knew what they were doing, unlike in the seventies.
I'm off now, goodnight everybody, to be continued..


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> If the cites-system would work like that it would have completely no value, and anything could be imported under just a family-name..
> 
> That's the whole point; they have to know exactly what gets imported, otherwise it should not be able to enter the country.


From what I understand that is generally what happens now...but at least back then they had the option to just call them "dendrobates sp"...and they took it for the reason I stated and/or other reasons. Because they didn't exercise the ability to name each species separately then we have no idea just how many histrionica or lehmanni came in shipments like that. Essentially in the long run the actions of Columbia probably hurt the frogs, and aided smuggling.


----------



## jubjub47

fred said:


> By the way, Tim; I can imagine that one export could slip through somewhere, somehow; but many shady imports into a country that keep on slippin' through from the ninetees up to now, is something else..
> That's something structurally wrong.
> 
> Don't say I accuse your country from something; it's all information that is given here in this thread, by honest people who know about it.
> 
> 
> Where is it registered about all the 'legal' histrionica's and lehmanni's that were imported and sold in shops back in the ninetees??
> That should be somewhere in the cites-lists..can't find it..you maybe?


The structure is lacking in Colombia for letting unknown frogs out of the country. Are you somehow saying it's the fault of every country but Colombia? 

I don't need to see anything registered about the shipments of those frogs back in the 90's. I saw them come in with fish shipments unordered with my own 2 eyes. What they left Colombia as is not for me to assume. They did come in though and we did not smuggle them.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> I would say, a cites-document with no specific species on it is worthless and stands for nothing; you can fill in anything there..
> How such a document can occur I find a mystery; cause to ex- and import animals or plants, you need to specify the species very accurate.


Well then you have made a value judgement on something that the member nations of the treaty consider acceptable. 



fred said:


> I have some friends in Holland who have a shop; and they are very carefull that there are no other species of animals in the import they order (specially exporters from Africa have the habbit to put something else in the order if they don't have the species that's ordered), cause there is a chance that the authorities will confiscate everything if it's not correct.
> I asume in other country's these rules are the same, because cites is a international trade-agreement.


Except you are attempting to compare two totally different things... Listing multiple species as to genera for a export on CITES does not violate any of the CITES regulations. Substituting a totally different animal for a listed species is a violation. For example substituting Python regius for Python sebae is a violation.. However a mixed shipment of Python that contains both P. regius and P. sebae is not a violation provided the numbers in the shipment match. You are attempting to equate the first example as being the same as the second when they are very different scenarios. 



fred said:


> This document proves nothing about histrionicus, lehmanni or whatever being exported legal; it's worthless.


I have to say that I am surprised that you are tossing out a multinational treaty for the regulation of trade in animals.. Actually it does have value as it is a official treaty signed by many nations of the world.. and used by many nations to enforce wildlife regulations and at this time, one of the primary methods for legally combating smuggling. The permit is legal at the time and accepted by the governing body. I have to say that totally exceeds your ability to invalidate it. 

Actually in all reality, just because it does not list any of those species, it does in no way affect the legality of the document or show that those species were not exported during thaat year as Dendrobates ssp. 




fred said:


> That it gets out of the country of export with this designation I can maybe imagine, but that it gets accepted at the customs in the country of import I can not imagine..
> 
> This should not be accepted, and for sure not prevent it from being seized....it gives a good reason to confiscate it....


As it was approved as a legal documentation for export, import and reporting to the governing body of CITES, there isn't any way to say it wasn't a legal document.. 

Ed


----------



## james67

ed, correct me here if im wrong but at that time wernt virtually all of the frogs considered dendrobates sp.? i know that D. lehmanni was accepted (or at least used) well past 1993.

which means that its quite likely that a very large percentage of the # you showed earlier (of legal imports under the name Dendrobates sp.) would be frogs now considered part of the genus Oophaga, such as histrionica and lehmanni. correct?

james


----------



## Ed

james67 said:


> ed, correct me here if im wrong but at that time wernt virtually all of the frogs considered dendrobates sp.? i know that D. lehmanni was accepted (or at least used) well past 1993.
> 
> which means that its quite likely that a very large percentage of the # you showed earlier (of legal imports under the name Dendrobates sp.) would be frogs now considered part of the genus Oophaga, such as histrionica and lehmanni. correct?
> 
> james


Yes, they were still Dendrobates at that time. Given the relative values of the frogs at that time, it is probable that those species were part of the export, but we can't be sure if they were or were not or the numbers involved. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> From what I understand that is generally what happens now...but at least back then they had the option to just call them "dendrobates sp"...and they took it for the reason I stated and/or other reasons. Because they didn't exercise the ability to name each species separately then we have no idea just how many histrionica or lehmanni came in shipments like that. Essentially in the long run the actions of Columbia probably hurt the frogs, and aided smuggling.


The option is still available. For example, Python species (as a general term) are listed as being exported within the last couple of years.... 

Furthermore, with non-CITES animals on regular import/export permits, it is not uncommon to see animals listed by just the genus. 

Ed


----------



## fred

Ed said:


> Well then you have made a value judgement on something that the member nations of the treaty consider acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> Except you are attempting to compare two totally different things... Listing multiple species as to genera for a export on CITES does not violate any of the CITES regulations. Substituting a totally different animal for a listed species is a violation. For example substituting Python regius for Python sebae is a violation.. However a mixed shipment of Python that contains both P. regius and P. sebae is not a violation provided the numbers in the shipment match. You are attempting to equate the first example as being the same as the second when they are very different scenarios.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say that I am surprised that you are tossing out a multinational treaty for the regulation of trade in animals.. Actually it does have value as it is a official treaty signed by many nations of the world.. and used by many nations to enforce wildlife regulations and at this time, one of the primary methods for legally combating smuggling. The permit is legal at the time and accepted by the governing body. I have to say that totally exceeds your ability to invalidate it.
> 
> Actually in all reality, just because it does not list any of those species, it does in no way affect the legality of the document or show that those species were not exported during thaat year as Dendrobates ssp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As it was approved as a legal documentation for export, import and reporting to the governing body of CITES, there isn't any way to say it wasn't a legal document..
> 
> Ed



Well, It sound all very strange to me..
I know this would not possible in Holland; if you want to import, lets say; Sarracenia plants, you have to specify what species it is, what is the origin, you can't just put the family name 'Sarracenia'.
The same for reptiles, amphibians or whatever.

You can not import frogs just under the name 'Dendrobates', they would never allow it.
I quess people here just want to cover up things, that's what is going on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think what Michael said makes sence; forget about what happend in the past and do it better in the future.
Point is that we have to learn from the past, to be able to do it better in the future....otherwise we just keep on doing the same.

Well, I think I've done what I can, maybe it has put some people to think and for sure it didn't have any impact on others, that's just how it is.

I can only hope that there are people around who do take this situation serious, and who are strong and driven enough to change the situation, cause frogs are getting wiped out right at this moment.

THESE FROGS ARE GETTING WIPED-OUT ONLY FOR OUR HOBBY; THE SMUGGLERS ARE CATCHING THEM SPECIFICLY FOR THE PEOPLE IN THIS HOBBY, LET THAT BE CLEAR, WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO BUY THEM, WE ARE THE ONES WHO KEEP THE SMUGGLING ALIVE.

So talk what you want with, blame it on everything and everybody els what you can possibly find, make it as complicated if you like, but this is as clear as it gets.

Keep on saying it can't be changed, keep on saying that if your country wil stop it, others will go on (so you can do it too, right), keep on saying it will never change, keep on saying it is impossible to stop (so just accept it)
Or maybe some just don't want it to stop and resist it in all kind of ways..

Well, the example that it can be heavely reduced or stopped is there allready here (Holland and Belgium f.e.), just change your policy in the community and the problem get solved. 

I have the feeling now that I can't do more then I've done, at this point it's going to be a waste of my time, so I can only hope that I have reached some people who can make a difference.

I'm not going against any allegations anymore here, so give it your best shot, I would say.

Maybe this is just going to be the next thread in the line of threads on this subject on this forum, maybe not, time will tell.
Goodluck everybody.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Well, It sound all very strange to me..
> I know this would not possible in Holland; if you want to import, lets say; Sarracenia plants, you have to specify what species it is, what is the origin, you can't just put the family name 'Sarracenia'.


According to the CITES trade data base between 1988 and the end of 1998, the Netherlands imported from the US 144400 Sarracenia sp.. (and they also imported generic Sarracenia from Australia as well). This was in addition to identified species. 



fred said:


> You can not import frogs just under the name 'Dendrobates', they would never allow it.
> I quess people here just want to cover up things, that's what is going on.


No one here is covering up anything. It is a classification allowed on the export permits by the signatory countries as part of the treaty and used with multiple taxa and by multiple countries. The Netherlands themselves imported Dendrobates in this classification from six countries..as recently as 2007 (40 animals from Canada). The Netherlands also exported frogs under this basic designation as recently as 2001 (and did so for many years prior..). 


Ed


----------



## earthfrog

Fred, your vote on my thread "Fed up with getting slammed" in the Lounge would be much appreciated. 

I think if it gets taken off the endangered list and the buyer is screened properly, go for it. Until then, it is not in the same class with other frogs.
If it is illegal or questionable, don't go for it.


----------



## earthfrog

fred said:


> Ed;
> 
> My English is not so good, but I should be able to find your answer, but only thing what I do find is no satisfying answer to me, just nonsens.
> 
> Another thing I do see here, is that your ego is enormous, and you rule this forum lika a true guru; you even have some followers who throw rose petals on your walking path!!
> 
> If someone disagrees with you, you become nasty, like a spoiled child, and your followers follow..
> It's a pity you've lost reality and live on a pink cloud..
> You should have a little more respect for others; even a beginning enthousiastic hobbyist can come up with new idea's and you can sometimes learn something there.
> 
> Don't think with throwing around your list of achievements (very modest action by the way) justifies your bad and arrogant attitude, not at all, it makes it even worse.
> 
> Do you know that some people send me emails that they don't write here, because they know they are getting to be beat down by you or one of your followers..
> 
> I'm not someone who's going to lick your feet like the of the others do; you don't impress me at all.
> 
> Don't like to talk in this way, but it seems there's is no option here to have a normal conversation without nastyness, don't like it at all.
> 
> Step of your cloud, come down to the ground, and show some respect for other people who don't agree with you, open your eyes, then we can talk again..and I can take you serious again.
> 
> Untill then your (or your followers/ clones) words mean nothing to me
> Time for a beer now.
> Cheers!


Do you know what hypocrisy is? It's condemning others for something that you yourself do. We all have it to some degree. I know Ed a bit better than you, and he is more respectful than you by far. Don't confuse education with arrogance.

WC Lehmanni are questionable. (thread is not jacked... back to your argument)


----------



## earthfrog

Dendro Dave said:


> Ok I basically accept all that...but *Fred do you understand that you have come off in such a way as to seem like you are basically accusing most of us of doing nothing at best and at worst actually supporting smuggling directly or indirectly*? Attempting to educate people about the situation is one thing, throwing around misinformation, vague accusations and unrealistic fixes for the problem during that attempt to educate does not serve your cause, nor does it do wonders for your personal credibility.
> 
> Especially when later you said that "they should all probably be legal once they get here" or something basically to that effect. You basically said that much of what you were speaking out against is actually ok in your mind...which begs the question "Why were you speaking out against it in the first place?". *When you made that statement you just condoned almost everything you've been accusing us of condoning and saying how shameful it was.*


Dendrodave, it's called hypocrisy and pride---taking a position blindly, oblivious and uncaring about others' feelings. In this mindset, asserting yourself over others is more important than having friends. 

WC Lehmanni are probably getting endangered by this thread alone. 
Back to the mudwrestling....


----------



## james67

fred said:


> THESE FROGS ARE GETTING WIPED-OUT ONLY FOR OUR HOBBY; THE SMUGGLERS ARE CATCHING THEM SPECIFICLY FOR THE PEOPLE IN THIS HOBBY, LET THAT BE CLEAR, WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO BUY THEM, WE ARE THE ONES WHO KEEP THE SMUGGLING ALIVE.


what about the smuggling going on for medical purposes? even the article you linked stated that the el pagan were being removed for the medical research trade AND the pet trade. i know of a number of wholesalers who sell auratus (from panama) in lots of 1000 for medical research.

james


----------



## fred

earthfrog said:


> Do you know what hypocrisy is? It's condemning others for something that you yourself do. We all have it to some degree. I know Ed a bit better than you, and he is more respectful than you by far. Don't confuse education with arrogance.
> 
> WC Lehmanni are questionable. (thread is not jacked... back to your argument)


I agree this is not the way to talk with eachother, you're right.
I know what hypocrisy is, and you can call me many things that maybe can be correct, but this is not one of them. 
I only can say; look a little further before this posts, why this is written..
No excuse, offcourse, but the way people communicate here, drags you into the same atmosphere..and make you do this..still no excuse, I know..
That's probably why there's only a limited group of people writing and giving their reactions here.
I agree with you that we should be more respectfull; I don't know Ed or his 'followers', can all be great and good people, but I did encounter the way they treat people here and that's not right.

Education doesn't exclude arrogance; I can see Ed is not stupid, but his behavior could be better. (and my reactions on his behavior could be better too, I know, it's no reason to react in the same way, so on that point I failed, you are right, I'm not affraid to admit it.)
It looks like people here carry Ed on their hands; probably he did a lot of good work and conrtibuted a lot, but still that doesn't mean you have to follow him blindly, and shiver by his comments pointed at you (Dave for example)..

It is difficult for people to keep their both feet on the ground when all the time people around you are telling you how wonderfull you are, you'll need to be challenged every now and then to keep your vision clear.

You're going to miss me Ed.. ..or maybe not..

Well, I have no hard feelings, I obviously don't belong on this forum, still hope at least some people got my message not to buy smuggled (or like you call it here 'shady') frogs.
And maybe someone stands up and do something about it.
Goodluck to you all.


----------



## earthfrog

fred said:


> I agree this is not the way to talk with eachother, you're right.
> I know what hypocrisy is, and you can call me many things that maybe can be correct, but this is not one of them.
> I only can say; look a little further before this posts, why this is written..
> No excuse, offcourse, but the way people communicate here, drags you into the same atmosphere..and make you do this..still no excuse, I know..
> That's probably why there's only a limited group of people writing and giving their reactions here.
> I agree with you that we should be more respectfull; I don't know Ed or his 'followers', can all be great and good people, but I did encounter the way they treat people here and that's not right.
> 
> Education doesn't exclude arrogance; I can see Ed is not stupid, but his behavior could be better. (and my reactions on his behavior could be better too, I know, it's no reason to react in the same way, so on that point I failed, you are right, I'm not affraid to admit it.)
> It looks like people here carry Ed on their hands; probably he did a lot of good work and conrtibuted a lot, but still that doesn't mean you have to follow him blindly, and shiver by his comments pointed at you (Dave for example)..
> 
> It is difficult for people to keep their both feet on the ground when all the time people around you are telling you how wonderfull you are, you'll need to be challenged every now and then to keep your vision clear.
> 
> You're going to miss me Ed.. ..or maybe not..
> 
> Well, I have no hard feelings, I obviously don't belong on this forum, still hope at least some people got my message not to buy smuggled (or like you call it here 'shady') frogs.
> And maybe someone stands up and do something about it.
> Goodluck to you all.


Thank you for explaining that more politely. I think we can all rest easier now. You take care of yourself. We all love frogs---at least we have that in common.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Education doesn't exclude arrogance; I can see Ed is not stupid, but his behavior could be better. (and my reactions on his behavior could be better too, I know, it's no reason to react in the same way, so on that point I failed, you are right, I'm not affraid to admit it.)
> It looks like people here carry Ed on their hands; probably he did a lot of good work and conrtibuted a lot, but still that doesn't mean you have to follow him blindly, and shiver by his comments pointed at you (Dave for example)..
> 
> .


Fred, 

you have shown a remarkably consistent pattern through multiple threads which is to attack a person who supplies you with proof that you cannot argue away without simply refusing to believe it. I was waiting for this response (and direct attack on my person) since I posted the information on the Netherlands using the genus as the sole identifier (Dendrobates as well) for import as well as exporting them under that designation as well.... (see post #620 in this thread). I have some comments below as well. 

I found it very odd throughout the thread that you consistently targeted species from Colombia that were either exported legally or cannot be shown to not have been exported legally from Colombia but totally ignored species that can be shown to have not been legally exported from Colombia.. specifically P. terriblis. Which appear to be legal to obtain back in the Netherlands.. can you explain why this species which has never been legally exported for the pet trade is not being targeted by you and your nebulous "conservation" minded people elsewhere in the world? 

You came into this thread with a bunch of accusations and unfounded preconceptions on availability, and legality, ranging from "never legally exported from Colombia", to protection of frogs and habitat, to how it is "done" which on review of the hard data cannot be substantiated. There has been a lot of angst and opinion thrown around, but the hard data speaks for itself. 

You have named nebulous parties who won't post in the thread because they are afraid of what I have to say.. well if they are afraid of what the data says, then that should be an indication of what thier real concern is about. I know at least one of those nebulous parties sent me several pms attacking me and supporting you, and that person works with a species never exported legally from Colombia.. so what does that say about you and your supporters? 

Ed


----------



## earthfrog

No, Ed, No! Can it be possible that this argument will return?
I suppose you have to have your say. 
He is obviously out of place, but I hope that now his argument will be greatly diminished. 
This is not about making others' look bad for the sake of it. 
This is about reestablishing order on the forum. 
By all means, Fred, discuss, but if you launch personal attacks, that is the end of your credibility unless you make reparations.


----------



## ErikHa

Fred, i see you still aren't making alot of friends here. Why don't you just avoid all this negative energy and focuss on your work in Colombia? 
I think shipping the first farm-bred histrionica's and lehmanni's will get you all the 'friends' over here you'd ever need


----------



## Ed

earthfrog said:


> No, Ed, No! Can it be possible that this argument will return?
> I suppose you have to have your say.
> He is obviously out of place, but I hope that now his argument will be greatly diminished.
> This is not about making others' look bad for the sake of it.
> This is about reestablishing order on the forum.
> By all means, Fred, discuss, but if you launch personal attacks, that is the end of your credibility unless you make reparations.


I think I've covered everything I need to say about attacking and being attacked, as well as personal interest games playing out behind the scenes. I've provided the hard data needed to refute the blind arguements about perceptions and misconceptions and pulled some items out into the light for everyone to see.. People can check the references posted (like the CITES trade data base) or read the posted citations, links etc and make up thier own minds where the truth lies. 

Just a note, the CITES trade database requires some personal information before it can be accessed.. so for those who have no fear.. walk into the light... 

Ed


----------



## earthfrog

Oh---and guessing someone's character when you don't know them doesn't end well. Neither can we guess one another's motives.
We're humans, not gods.


----------



## james67

dont worry there are much more reputable organizations working on just that as we speak, in all honesty fred is probably a little late in the game to be the first to legally export histrionica in recent times. 

please no PMs etc. just suffice it to say that there are already attempts being made to legally export these frogs in a sustainable manner.

james


----------



## NathanB

lol @ people pm attacking ed, or anyone about this for that matter


----------



## earthfrog

This argument is like the one between folks who take purebred AKC dogs to shows, spend money and time on their careful breeding and paperwork, only to have the dogs ruined and inherit a lifetime of health problems by a handful of puppy farm people who breed dogs indiscriminately and use dog brokers to get their hands on good studs and bitches.

Puppy farmers, if you care more about money than our dogs, shame on you. Again, I say, shame on you. 

If not, change and become a valuable part of the community.


----------



## Ed

earthfrog said:


> This argument is like the one between folks who take purebred AKC dogs to shows, spend money and time on their careful breeding and paperwork, only to have the dogs ruined and inherit a lifetime of health problems by a handful of puppy farm people who breed dogs indiscriminately and use dog brokers to get their hands on good studs and bitches.
> 
> Puppy farmers, if you care more about money than our dogs, shame on you. Again, I say, shame on you.
> 
> If not, change and become a valuable part of the community.


I've met some breeders who were passionate about thier dogs but did not visit the show circuit and thier dogs were perfectly fine. The real issue, is the people who are more interested in the dollar amount that can be obtained.. 

Ed


----------



## earthfrog

Yes, I am not referring to the responsible private breeders. But without showing the dogs, one can't be sure if they're passing on undesirable traits---at the very least, a genetic workup should be done. 
I have some lovely Irish Terriers, but I didn't know they were puppy farm dogs until later. They have AKC registrations and everything. 

So sue me, now the thread is jacked. But I don't think anyone is put off by it.

WC Lehmanni should stay wild, not caught.


----------



## fred

Looks like all the frustrations are coming out..

Is a good thing; let it all go......keep no stress inside..

Just wanted to say one thing: I didn't send the pm's, before someone accuse me of it.
I'm quite capable to say what I want right here.

Anyway; what does it matter, you can accuse me and call me what you want if that makes you feel good, all just words.

Ed, offcourse you can have the last word, like in every thread here, no problem


----------



## ChrisK

fred said:


> Ed, offcourse you can have the last word, like in every thread here, no problem


Instead of redirecting the argument and saying something useless, how about reviewing the data and presenting documented proof of it being incorrect if you know it's incorrect?


----------



## earthfrog

ChrisK said:


> Instead of redirecting the argument and saying something useless, how about reviewing the data and presenting documented proof of it being incorrect if you know it's incorrect?


I think I speak rightly when I say the root issue was never about correct or incorrect. There is a serious issue with miscommuncation, and that issue is supported by a behind-the-scenes personal conflict where business interests and personal grudges have skewed the facts about what people hear. The sad thing is--this may have been something that everyone could actually come to terms about had they left personal issues out. 
You have been to an old-fashioned western showdown in no uncertain terms. Those of you who didn't get shot, be grateful there's a sheriff in town (whatever that means--I'm on a rampage today).


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> I agree this is not the way to talk with eachother, you're right.
> I know what hypocrisy is, and you can call me many things that maybe can be correct, but this is not one of them.
> I only can say; look a little further before this posts, why this is written..
> No excuse, offcourse, but the way people communicate here, drags you into the same atmosphere..and make you do this..still no excuse, I know..
> That's probably why there's only a limited group of people writing and giving their reactions here.
> I agree with you that we should be more respectfull; I don't know Ed or his 'followers', can all be great and good people, but I did encounter the way they treat people here and that's not right.
> 
> Education doesn't exclude arrogance; I can see Ed is not stupid, but his behavior could be better. (and my reactions on his behavior could be better too, I know, it's no reason to react in the same way, so on that point I failed, you are right, I'm not affraid to admit it.)
> It looks like people here carry Ed on their hands; probably he did a lot of good work and conrtibuted a lot, but still that doesn't mean you have to follow him blindly, and shiver by his comments pointed at you (Dave for example)..
> 
> It is difficult for people to keep their both feet on the ground when all the time people around you are telling you how wonderfull you are, you'll need to be challenged every now and then to keep your vision clear.
> 
> You're going to miss me Ed.. ..or maybe not..
> 
> Well, I have no hard feelings, I obviously don't belong on this forum, still hope at least some people got my message not to buy smuggled (or like you call it here 'shady') frogs.
> And maybe someone stands up and do something about it.
> Goodluck to you all.


Forgetting for a moment that you continue to ignore many facts, and address valid points let me point out an example of hypocrisy since you don't seem to understand the definition of the word. I quote you...

"No excuse, ofcourse, but the way people communicate here, drags you into the same atmosphere..and make you do this..still no excuse, I know..
That's probably why there's only a limited group of people writing and giving their reactions here.
I agree with you that we should be more respectfull; I don't know Ed or his 'followers', can all be great and good people, but I did encounter the way they treat people here and that's not right.

Right here you say "still no excuses", "we should all be more respectful" and then you imply in a derogatory context that anyone who agrees with Ed is one of "his followers". Basically you were just being passive aggressive and insulting after saying there was no excuse for such behavior. That is a hypocritical statement.

You also said... "I know what hypocrisy is, and you can call me many things that maybe can be correct, but this is not one of them. " And then you went on to make a couple of hypocritical statements throughout your posts proving you were mistaken about being a hypocrite, since a hypocrite is one who makes hypocritcal statements which you just did.

Again after your statements about how we should all behave and that there are no excuses for such bad behavior, and you not being a hypocrite you go on to level a personal insult at me here... 

"It looks like people here carry Ed on their hands; probably he did a lot of good work and conrtibuted a lot, but still that doesn't mean you have to follow him blindly, and shiver by his comments pointed at you (Dave for example).." Here you suggest in a passive aggressive way that anyone who agrees with Ed including myself is a "blind follower", which is an insult to all the people who agree with Ed about many of his points, or even just some of his points. You also include another personal insult towards me stating that I "shiver at comments pointed at me"....In fact I do not. I appreciate the way Ed argues a position, doing it based on facts and research instead of vague personal opinions and beliefs not supported in science, or with very little support.

He puts forth ideas and possibilities along with references to work that supports those notions and does so most times even in the rare event when he just states his personal opinion about something. Most of the time all he does is make important points relating to the conversation for others to consider and evaluate on their own. But anyways my point is that after your statements about how we should all behave better, and there being no excuses for bad behavior you leveled at least 2 personal insults against me thus proving yourself a hypocrite 2 more times for a total of 3 at least and you also proved yourself wrong about being a hypocrite at least 2 times in that post.

I point this out not only in my own defense but because it is relevant to the problems we have been discussing with your approach and your position. It demonstrates an inability to grasp simple concepts, like what constitutes a hypocrite or a valid cites permit. It also serves as an example of consistantly contradicting yourself and putting out misinformation. I could probably go on but I am afraid that it is pointless in light of your inability to grasp these simple concepts and your track record of ignoring facts and valid arguments in favor of blind faith in your own simplistic view of the situation and the people involved. 

I'm very interested to know how you'll respond to all the points I just made but I think I probably already know. You'll dance around most of the issues or just flat out ignore they exist, then you'll probably apologize or make a somewhat conciliatory statement just before or after you make a passive aggressive statement, and some where in there you'll attempt to shame us all while holding yourself up as some kind of ethical role model for us all all while attempting to guilt us into feeling sorry for you, and take some vague action to "save the frogs!!!". I await with breathless anticipation 

There I feel I have adequately defended myself and Ed's other "blind followers" and perhaps even the messiah himself 

I also feel I can correctly make the statement..."Oh SNAP DOG!!!!....YOU JUST GOT SERVED!" And would be justified in asking this... "Can I get an "AMEN" from the congregation?"


----------



## fred

earthfrog said:


> I think I speak rightly when I say the root issue was never about correct or incorrect. There is a serious issue with miscommuncation, and that issue is supported by a behind-the-scenes personal conflict where business interests and personal grudges have skewed the facts about what people hear. The sad thing is--this may have been something that everyone could actually come to terms about had they left personal issues out.
> You have been to an old-fashioned western showdown in no uncertain terms. Those of you who didn't get shot, be grateful there's a sheriff in town (whatever that means--I'm on a rampage today).



earthfrog,

I must offer you my apologies; it was never my intention to frustrate you so deeply..


----------



## angry gary

wow 64 pages and this is still going on? doesn't anyone know when you are being jerked around? let it die...let it die


----------



## earthfrog

fred said:


> earthfrog,
> 
> I must offer you my apologies; it was never my intention to frustrate you so deeply..


I am not deeply frustrated or hurt so much as some the others on this thread. I am not gossiping, either. However, I think you ought to go to them privately and settle things, then you may win them over again. They in turn should probably do that for you. That is so much more important than this whole thread's content.


----------



## earthfrog

Dendro Dave said:


> There I feel I have adequately defended myself and Ed's other "blind followers" and perhaps even the messiah himself
> 
> I also feel I can correctly make the statement..."Oh SNAP DOG!!!!....YOU JUST GOT SERVED!" And would be justified in asking this... "Can I get an "AMEN" from the congregation?"


I bet you feel pretty good about that one, but trust me, Jesus doesn't need that kind of tirade...but I guess maybe it will help iron things out. I hope it was written for the purpose of helping things resolve peaceably.


----------



## fred

Dendro Dave said:


> Forgetting for a moment that you continue to ignore many facts, and address valid points let me point out an example of hypocrisy since you don't seem to understand the definition of the word. I quote you...
> 
> "No excuse, ofcourse, but the way people communicate here, drags you into the same atmosphere..and make you do this..still no excuse, I know..
> That's probably why there's only a limited group of people writing and giving their reactions here.
> I agree with you that we should be more respectfull; I don't know Ed or his 'followers', can all be great and good people, but I did encounter the way they treat people here and that's not right.
> 
> Right here you say "still no excuses", "we should all be more respectful" and then you imply in a derogatory context that anyone who agrees with Ed is one of "his followers". Basically you were just being passive aggressive and insulting after saying there was no excuse for such behavior. That is a hypocritical statement.
> 
> You also said... "I know what hypocrisy is, and you can call me many things that maybe can be correct, but this is not one of them. " And then you went on to make a couple of hypocritical statements throughout your posts proving you were mistaken about being a hypocrite, since a hypocrite is one who makes hypocritcal statements which you just did.
> 
> Again after your statements about how we should all behave and that there are no excuses for such bad behavior, and you not being a hypocrite you go on to level a personal insult at me here...
> 
> "It looks like people here carry Ed on their hands; probably he did a lot of good work and conrtibuted a lot, but still that doesn't mean you have to follow him blindly, and shiver by his comments pointed at you (Dave for example).." Here you suggest in a passive aggressive way that anyone who agrees with Ed including myself is a "blind follower", which is an insult to all the people who agree with Ed about many of his points, or even just some of his points. You also include another personal insult towards me stating that I "shiver at comments pointed at me"....In fact I do not. I appreciate the way Ed argues a position, doing it based on facts and research instead of vague personal opinions and beliefs not supported in science, or with very little support.
> 
> He puts forth ideas and possibilities along with references to work that supports those notions and does so most times even in the rare event when he just states his personal opinion about something. Most of the time all he does is make important points relating to the conversation for others to consider and evaluate on their own. But anyways my point is that after your statements about how we should all behave better, and there being no excuses for bad behavior you leveled at least 2 personal insults against me thus proving yourself a hypocrite 2 more times for a total of 3 at least and you also proved yourself wrong about being a hypocrite at least 2 times in that post.
> 
> I point this out not only in my own defense but because it is relevant to the problems we have been discussing with your approach and your position. It demonstrates an inability to grasp simple concepts, like what constitutes a hypocrite or a valid cites permit. It also serves as an example of consistantly contradicting yourself and putting out misinformation. I could probably go on but I am afraid that it is pointless in light of your inability to grasp these simple concepts and your track record of ignoring facts and valid arguments in favor of blind faith in your own simplistic view of the situation and the people involved.
> 
> I'm very interested to know how you'll respond to all the points I just made but I think I probably already know. You'll dance around most of the issues or just flat out ignore they exist, then you'll probably apologize or make a somewhat conciliatory statement just before or after you make a passive aggressive statement, and some where in there you'll attempt to shame us all while holding yourself up as some kind of ethical role model for us all all while attempting to guilt us into feeling sorry for you, and take some vague action to "save the frogs!!!". I await with breathless anticipation
> 
> There I feel I have adequately defended myself and Ed's other "blind followers" and perhaps even the messiah himself
> 
> I also feel I can correctly make the statement..."Oh SNAP DOG!!!!....YOU JUST GOT SERVED!" And would be justified in asking this... "Can I get an "AMEN" from the congregation?"



It's a little bit much all to read, but I can see you're lost your uncertainty and found your place again; you're back in the sadlle..!! 
Goodluck Dave; I think you're not a bad guy.
(don't want to embarrass you in front of the others, so please say something nasty, before someone thinks you're 'on my side')


----------



## earthfrog

fred said:


> It's a little bit much all to read, but I can see you're lost your uncertainty and found your place again; you're back in the sadlle..!!
> Goodluck Dave; I think you're not a bad guy.
> (don't want to embarrass you in front of the others, so please say something nasty, before someone thinks you're 'on my side')


There's no need to take sides with anyone. Just try to stand up for the right thing. Taking sides just causes division between good folks. Stand up for what you believe in--you don't have to follow the leader, whomever that is.


----------



## fred

angry gary said:


> wow 64 pages and this is still going on? doesn't anyone know when you are being jerked around? let it die...let it die


Don't spoil the fun; we're just getting warmed-up..pity I have to go work a little now..some famous words: I'll be back..


----------



## Dendro Dave

earthfrog said:


> I bet you feel pretty good about that one, but trust me, Jesus doesn't need that kind of tirade...but I guess maybe it will help iron things out. I hope it was written for the purpose of helping things resolve peaceably.


Jesus? I didn't say anything about Jesus...I meant Ed!!!! LOL ...


----------



## earthfrog

Dendro Dave said:


> Jesus? I didn't say anything about Jesus...I meant Ed!!!! LOL ...


Oh, that never occurred to me. There is only one God in my book. Carry on, folks, nothing to see here.


----------



## earthfrog

fred said:


> Don't spoil the fun; we're just getting warmed-up..pity I have to go work a little now..some famous words: I'll be back..


It's not fun---it's arduous and frustrating for most folks. I'm unsubscribing now...


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> It's a little bit much all to read, but I can see you're lost your uncertainty and found your place again; you're back in the sadlle..!!
> Goodluck Dave; I think you're not a bad guy.
> (don't want to embarrass you in front of the others, so please say something nasty, before someone thinks you're 'on my side')


Not bad Fred, Other then actually addressing my comments and refuting them with accurate and logical arguments this kind of post was really about the only place I left for you to go after painting you into such a corner. Well other then admitting everything I said was true, which might have actually redeemed you somewhat in the eyes of many here and made us think there was actually hope for you.

After not understanding simple concepts about what constitutes a valid Cites permit or a hypocrite I didn't really expect such a cleverly devious tactic from you....It was the next best thing to just being honest and admitting you were wrong. Well done Fred


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> Jesus? I didn't say anything about Jesus...I meant Ed!!!! LOL ...


And we know I'm not Jesus by some of the following signs,

1) I can't walk on water no matter how hard I try or how much I wish I could to reach that perfect spot for fishing

2) I haven't changed church services by turning water into beer instead of wine

there are many others but I didn't want to get to heretical.. 

Ed


----------



## earthfrog

Ed said:


> And we know I'm not Jesus by some of the following signs,
> 
> 1) I can't walk on water no matter how hard I try or how much I wish I could to reach that perfect spot for fishing
> 
> 2) I haven't changed church services by turning water into beer instead of wine
> 
> there are many others but I didn't want to get to heretical..
> 
> Ed


Ed, that reminds me of some of that crazy stuff going on right now---like folks carrying around rattlesnakes b/c of some verse regarding the Apostles about not getting harmed by snakes...and people trying to 'speak the power of God' into their environment and their wallet...
silly people. 
Those signs were for a certain purpose and time--probably won't be repeated. There are some legit ones and a whole DARN lot of phony ones...I know 'cause I've seen both sides...and phony pastors and churches...
sad thing, really---the original church now consists of folks scattered here and there due to greedy, selfish churches that don't care anything for the people they claim to serve. 
Anyhow---good comeback. 

Say, Fred, what do you do for fun besides beat dead horses? 

You know guys, I think the best thing to do is to get out of Dodge...


----------



## earthfrog

fred said:


> Don't spoil the fun; we're just getting warmed-up..pity I have to go work a little now..some famous words: I'll be back..


Here ya go Fred. This will either warm you up or turn you off. Try this one. It ends with Bible verses.

YouTube - How To Deal With Difficult People.mpg


----------



## fred

Dendro Dave said:


> Not bad Fred, Other then actually addressing my comments and refuting them with accurate and logical arguments this kind of post was really about the only place I left for you to go after painting you into such a corner. Well other then admitting everything I said was true, which might have actually redeemed you somewhat in the eyes of many here and made us think there was actually hope for you.
> 
> After not understanding simple concepts about what constitutes a valid Cites permit or a hypocrite I didn't really expect such a cleverly devious tactic from you....It was the next best thing to just being honest and admitting you were wrong. Well done Fred



Hi Dave, 

 actually; I am the one who really is painting at this moment. and take a break now and then to see what is going on here, nothing shocking so far.

This thread is not about the question if there's hope for me, but if there's hope for the frogs that are getting smuggled all the time..it seems not.

Also not very important is who is right or wrong about some paperwork.
If you want to hear me say that I'm wrong about the paperwork; no problem, here it is: I'm wrong....and now?....it changes nothing.
I can keep going on telling you they never gave out papers for these frogs here, and even if you believe me, it wouldn't change anything.


----------



## fred

earthfrog said:


> Say, Fred, what do you do for fun besides beat dead horses?



Sometimes the horse looks dead, but it isn't..if you beat it a little bit, it could stand up again....anyway, much better then beat around the bush and leave the horse to die..


----------



## fred

earthfrog said:


> Here ya go Fred. This will either warm you up or turn you off. Try this one. It ends with Bible verses.
> 
> YouTube - How To Deal With Difficult People.mpg



Do they also have a video how to deal with people who buy endangered species from smugglers?


----------



## ChrisK

Hey fred, guess what?


----------



## fred

Ed said:


> And we know I'm not Jesus by some of the following signs,
> 
> 1) I can't walk on water no matter how hard I try or how much I wish I could to reach that perfect spot for fishing
> 
> 2) I haven't changed church services by turning water into beer instead of wine
> 
> there are many others but I didn't want to get to heretical..
> 
> Ed



Hi Ed; I'm surprised you can't do it....about 100 mtrs from my house is a river where I sometimes have a walk and can watch a nice lizard running over the water there, you probably know it; it's called Basiliscus galeritus, the trick is to make enough speed before you hit the water, and offcourse you'll need to have very long toes....
So I guess you're just not running fast enough..

Beer or wine, it's all fine; but remember first to drink the beer, then the wine, otherwise for sure you won't make it to that fishing spot.


----------



## fred

ChrisK said:


> Hey fred, guess what?



No Chris; I didn't ask for a video about how to buy endangered frogs from smugglers..
Allready know that.


----------



## ChrisK

fred said:


> No Chris; I didn't ask for a video about how to buy endangered frogs from smugglers..
> Allready know that.


Your answer was supposed to simply be, "What?"


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> actually; I am the one who really is painting at this moment. and take a break now and then to see what is going on here, nothing shocking so far.
> 
> This thread is not about the question if there's hope for me, but if there's hope for the frogs that are getting smuggled all the time..it seems not.
> 
> Also not very important is who is right or wrong about some paperwork.
> If you want to hear me say that I'm wrong about the paperwork; no problem, here it is: I'm wrong....and now?....it changes nothing.
> I can keep going on telling you they never gave out papers for these frogs here, and even if you believe me, it wouldn't change anything.


I think you are the only one here that feels that way, or one of a very few number. So you can paint all you want, but there will be little there anyone here will consider to be art. 

If you are truly admitting you were wrong, and believe it and not just saying that as part of some tactic then it does change something. It means you finally accepted a fact instead of believing a fairy tail...(This is where you make some witty comment about these frogs not being smuggled being the real fairy tail). I don't know if the frogs exported under that cites permit went to your country...but the point of the argument being made was to show you that in fact the species we were discussing could have been exported somewhere LEGALLY. A fact until now you continually refused to believe. Also it was a shining example of one aspect of your behavior that has continually annoyed most people here. Ignoring facts supported by research and experts in favor of beating not only a dead horse but a few imaginary dead horses.

I honestly don't think you are a bad guy Fred though the more this goes on the more I question your true intentions. But you do refuse to see reason and acknowledge facts and good evidence in favor of your own views, most of at best are vague and unspecific, have little factual support and at worse are accusatory, insulting and occasionally just completely wrong. i hope it is mostly the language barrier that is preventing you from seeing reason in so many instances but you have demonstrated a competent enough command of the language to make that highly doubtful in most cases. 

As far as hope for the frogs, I think there is hope...but ya a lot more needs to be done, I'll even grant you that some of it needs to be done by us in the hobby here and in other Countries...but a lot of it needs to also be done by the countries the frogs come from, the U.S. government and the governments of the EU, Japan and anywhere else there is a dart frog hobby.

People all over the world including those in your own country I'm sure can't agree on what constitutes a smuggled or Illegal frog. You have your opinion and you are entitled to it, but you can't force it on everyone here, and whether it is the right opinion or not you will never get everyone to accept it and unless you do you will never end all demand for frogs YOU FEEL are Illegal. Also as I've said many times your approach is not helping your cause. You are doing more harm then good at least here. If you want to educate people, give them facts, and evidence not just your personal opinion and accusations, stop spreading misinformation and vague rumors and let them decide for their selves what is right or wrong, legal or illegal and stop trying to force your opinion on them...I think you'll be amazed at how much more good comes from that then what you are doing now. 

You are not the moral authority on what is right or wrong in the frog hobby nor in any other area of life that I am aware of, and mostly all we are asking of you here is to stop acting like you are. You might not feel that is how you are acting, but I am pretty sure that is the opinion of most of the people that have read this thread, and your actions keep reinforcing that opinion whether it is your intention or not...so if you want to help the frogs and win more people over to your cause please change your tactics. If you don't it is just more evidence that is not your real agenda here and even more reason for us to ignore or argue with most everything you say.


----------



## fred

ChrisK said:


> Your answer was supposed to simply be, "What?"


I'm too curieus; what video did I miss?


----------



## ChrisK

Your answer was supposed to simply be, "What?"


----------



## Dendro Dave

ChrisK said:


> Your answer was supposed to simply be, "What?"


If he does, will the reply be "Chicken butt"??? If so then Kudos to you sir


----------



## fred

Dendro Dave said:


> I think you are the only one here that feels that way, or one of a very few number. So you can paint all you want, but there will be little there anyone here will consider to be art.
> 
> If you are truly admitting you were wrong, and believe it and not just saying that as part of some tactic then it does change something. It means you finally accepted a fact instead of believing a fairy tail...(This is where you make some witty comment about these frogs not being smuggled being the real fairy tail). I don't know if the frogs exported under that cites permit went to your country...but the point of the argument being made was to show you that in fact the species we were discussing could have been exported somewhere LEGALLY. A fact until now you continually refused to believe. Also it was a shining example of one aspect of your behavior that has continually annoyed most people here. Ignoring facts supported by research and experts in favor of beating not only a dead horse but a few imaginary dead horses.
> 
> I honestly don't think you are a bad guy Fred though the more this goes on the more I question your true intentions. But you do refuse to see reason and acknowledge facts and good evidence in favor of your own views, most of at best are vague and unspecific, have little factual support and at worse are accusatory, insulting and occasionally just completely wrong. i hope it is mostly the language barrier that is preventing you from seeing reason in so many instances but you have demonstrated a competent enough command of the language to make that highly doubtful in most cases.
> 
> As far as hope for the frogs, I think there is hope...but ya a lot more needs to be done, I'll even grant you that some of it needs to be done by us in the hobby here and in other Countries...but a lot of it needs to also be done by the countries the frogs come from, the U.S. government and the governments of the EU, Japan and anywhere else there is a dart frog hobby.
> 
> People all over the world including those in your own country I'm sure can't agree on what constitutes a smuggled or Illegal frog. You have your opinion and you are entitled to it, but you can't force it on everyone here, and whether it is the right opinion or not you will never get everyone to accept it and unless you do you will never end all demand for frogs YOU FEEL are Illegal. Also as I've said many times your approach is not helping your cause. You are doing more harm then good at least here. If you want to educate people, give them facts, and evidence not just your personal opinion and accusations, stop spreading misinformation and vague rumors and let them decide for their selves what is right or wrong, legal or illegal and stop trying to force your opinion on them...I think you'll be amazed at how much more good comes from that then what you are doing now.
> 
> You are not the moral authority on what is right or wrong in the frog hobby nor in any other area of life that I am aware of, and mostly all we are asking of you here is to stop acting like you are. You might not feel that is how you are acting, but I am pretty sure that is the opinion of most of the people that have read this thread, and your actions keep reinforcing that opinion whether it is your intention or not...so if you want to help the frogs and win more people over to your cause please change your tactics. If you don't it is just more evidence that is not your real agenda here and even more reason for us to ignore or argue with most everything you say.



Dave, It's not that I feel that way; I really am painting here....!! 
You see that you don't believe me..??

Hey, beating imaginary dead horses doesn't hurt anybody; now I'm not allowed to imagine things anymore eather..?

Be carefull, you said: 'I'll even grant you that some of it needs to be done by us'....
In the other thread I got under heavily fire when I used the word 'us' (it means 'we', but it get's easely interpreted for U.S. 
'non outside these borders shall order an american citizen around' was what I got for an answer, I just said 'us': (we)..
So be carefull..better say: 'we'..

About Japan, I was thinking to send them this, what do you think?
あなたが密輸カエルを購入しないようにしてください希望ですか？

By the way; Ed, you don't have a cousin living in Japan who's into frogs and documents?..don't want to go throu the whole thing again..

But serious, about your proposal for me to stop spreading vaque rumors; I will do that, but then you have to stop spreading vaque cites-documents, ok?


Dave, I know that I'm not the moral authority on what is right and what is wrong, but I did catch a basilisk one time without running over the water..


----------



## fred

ChrisK said:


> Your answer was supposed to simply be, "What?"


ok, ok,ok; What?


----------



## ChrisK

That's what.


----------



## fred

ChrisK said:


> That's what.


I thought so..

Well, time to go for now; and I admit that tonight Ed came up with a very good plan..: about the beer!
cheers!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

ChrisK said:


> That's what.


Yes sir, right here makes me miss the Rep. System.
A big green for Chris!!!!

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> Dave, It's not that I feel that way; I really am painting here....!!
> You see that you don't believe me..??
> 
> Hey, beating imaginary dead horses doesn't hurt anybody; now I'm not allowed to imagine things anymore eather..?
> 
> Be carefull, you said: 'I'll even grant you that some of it needs to be done by us'....
> In the other thread I got under heavily fire when I used the word 'us' (it means 'we', but it get's easely interpreted for U.S.
> 'non outside these borders shall order an american citizen around' was what I got for an answer, I just said 'us': (we)..
> So be carefull..better say: 'we'..
> 
> About Japan, I was thinking to send them this, what do you think?
> あなたが密輸カエルを購入しないようにしてください希望ですか？
> 
> By the way; Ed, you don't have a cousin living in Japan who's into frogs and documents?..don't want to go throu the whole thing again..
> 
> But serious, about your proposal for me to stop spreading vaque rumors; I will do that, but then you have to stop spreading vaque cites-documents, ok?
> 
> 
> Dave, I know that I'm not the moral authority on what is right and what is wrong, but I did catch a basilisk one time without running over the water..


I hate to see any animal imaginary and/or dead or alive abused so you are hurting me Fred....and not in the way only a hot girl might, so it is not enjoyable 

What are you painting?

"We" meaning I and the voices in my head will keep that advice in mind 

I speak very little and read almost no Japanese...I can't even read the Kanji framed on my wall or the characters on the fabric of my futon (couch or sofa + fold out bed...if that doesn't translate) So I can't comment on what I think of you sending them that without a translation.

I can't say specifically, but thankfully I'm sure Ed has counterparts at least in every country town, and city.... Unfortunately I'm sure where ever they are they are in the minority 

I didn't spread vague cites permits...Columbia did, take it up with them 

Did you stress and remove that basilisk from its environment in order to save it? If so...did it work? Did you make any money off of it?


----------



## frogfreak

Had enough yet Guys and Gals.........???


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> I didn't spread vague cites permits...Columbia did, take it up with them


As did many of the other CITES signatories during import and export including the Netherlands (Holland..), the USA, Canada... etc.. 

Ed


----------



## earthfrog

fred said:


> Hi Ed; I'm surprised you can't do it....about 100 mtrs from my house is a river where I sometimes have a walk and can watch a nice lizard running over the water there, you probably know it; it's called Basiliscus galeritus, the trick is to make enough speed before you hit the water, and offcourse you'll need to have very long toes....
> So I guess you're just not running fast enough..
> 
> Beer or wine, it's all fine; but remember first to drink the beer, then the wine, otherwise for sure you won't make it to that fishing spot.


The original miracle was done walking, not running. Plus, there was a second guy, too, but his faith was weak and he had to be saved. Get it right dude.


----------



## ErikHa

So, who have lehmanni amongst you? If you have all the CITES-papers and fit into the neat statistics presented, you're doing nothing wrong and there is no reason not "to step into the light".


----------



## fred

Dendro Dave said:


> I hate to see any animal imaginary and/or dead or alive abused so you are hurting me Fred....and not in the way only a hot girl might, so it is not enjoyable
> 
> What are you painting?
> 
> "We" meaning I and the voices in my head will keep that advice in mind
> 
> I speak very little and read almost no Japanese...I can't even read the Kanji framed on my wall or the characters on the fabric of my futon (couch or sofa + fold out bed...if that doesn't translate) So I can't comment on what I think of you sending them that without a translation.
> 
> I can't say specifically, but thankfully I'm sure Ed has counterparts at least in every country town, and city.... Unfortunately I'm sure where ever they are they are in the minority
> 
> I didn't spread vague cites permits...Columbia did, take it up with them
> 
> Did you stress and remove that basilisk from its environment in order to save it? If so...did it work? Did you make any money off of it?



Dave, you have to get more nasty then this....they are never going to believe you are not on my side..
You are loosing face here..you can flatter Ed what you want, but he will not buy it if you're not nasy enough against me! 
You were doing so well, what happend? 

Well, to be honest, I was only joking about the dead horses, I didn't bring it up, just gave a reaction, and I really like them more alive.

You have imaginary hot girls that are hurting you? and voices in your head?
Say no more, I won't say no more about it.

I got this answer from Japan:
すべてのカエルは法的文書とドイツから来た
我々は、そこは違法カエルを持つすべてのこれらのカエルは、合法的に行くアメリカで見ていると言うcitesdocumentsを持って！

You said; my English is improving, so I thought: maybe I can try to learn a little Japanese too..
Luckely we have these translate options on the computer, in the past we had to go through all these books.


----------



## fred

earthfrog said:


> The original miracle was done walking, not running. Plus, there was a second guy, too, but his faith was weak and he had to be saved. Get it right dude.


So I've heard; but we are no Jesus, we won't make it walking, no matter how strong our faith is and how many ratllesnakes we hang around our neck..


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> Dave, you have to get more nasty then this....they are never going to believe you are not on my side..
> You are loosing face here..you can flatter Ed what you want, but he will not buy it if you're not nasy enough against me!
> You were doing so well, what happend?
> 
> Well, to be honest, I was only joking about the dead horses, I didn't bring it up, just gave a reaction, and I really like them more alive.
> 
> You have imaginary hot girls that are hurting you? and voices in your head?
> Say no more, I won't say no more about it.
> 
> I got this answer from Japan:
> すべてのカエルは法的文書とドイツから来た
> 我々は、そこは違法カエルを持つすべてのこれらのカエルは、合法的に行くアメリカで見ていると言うcitesdocumentsを持って！
> 
> You said; my English is improving, so I thought: maybe I can try to learn a little Japanese too..
> Luckely we have these translate options on the computer, in the past we had to go through all these books.


It wasn't nasty Fred because I wasn't trying to make it that way. Actually the whole thing was intended in friendly good humor. I take it from the first part of your response and the comment on imaginary girls you didn't take it that way??? Or was that intended to be in good humor? I couldn't tell.


----------



## Ed

ErikHa said:


> So, who have lehmanni amongst you? If you have all the CITES-papers and fit into the neat statistics presented, you're doing nothing wrong and there is no reason not "to step into the light".


Erik,

If you are referring to my comment, then I think you totally missed the point... 

Within the herp community there is a lot of distrust of the goverment so many keepers tend to not want to draw attention of the goverment if they don't have any a specific need to do so.. I was making a joke on that distrust as they would have to register with the CITES database and give a reason for accessing the information. 

Secondly, if you had been following the thread, you would know that legal animals would not necessarily be accompanied by CITES paperwork as 
1) they could have been simply exported and imported as Dendrobates ssp
2) the importer is under no obligation to pass copies of those permits along, if the importer chooses to not do so
3) animals produced in captivity within a country do not need any paperwork to show legality. 

Don't forget one of the major foundations in the USA, is innocent until proven guilty. 

Ed


----------



## fred

Dendro Dave said:


> It wasn't nasty Fred because I wasn't trying to make it that way. Actually the whole thing was intended in friendly good humor. I take it from the first part of your response and the comment on imaginary girls you didn't take it that way??? Or was that intended to be in good humor? I couldn't tell.


Yeah, you're right; not only the frogs and the cites-documents, but also the humor gets a little shady..
Well, to clear that up: offcourse I was joking!
Besides of that; it's ok to have imaginary hot girls and voices in your head: we all have 'em once and a while..


----------



## fred

Ed said:


> Erik,
> 
> If you are referring to my comment, then I think you totally missed the point...
> 
> Within the herp community there is a lot of distrust of the goverment so many keepers tend to not want to draw attention of the goverment if they don't have any a specific need to do so.. I was making a joke on that distrust as they would have to register with the CITES database and give a reason for accessing the information.
> 
> Secondly, if you had been following the thread, you would know that legal animals would not necessarily be accompanied by CITES paperwork as
> 1) they could have been simply exported and imported as Dendrobates ssp
> 2) the importer is under no obligation to pass copies of those permits along, if the importer chooses to not do so
> 3) animals produced in captivity within a country do not need any paperwork to show legality.
> 
> Don't forget one of the major foundations in the USA, is innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> Ed


I think what Erik means is that if you own this kind of questionable frogs, you should not be affraid to draw the attention, and have the proof there that they are in fact legal.

We should be more clear about it that these frogs are not so commonly bred, and a big difference with f.e. a D. galactonotus.
The breeding lines are not going back generations, we all know it, so why keep on turning circels around it?
The only way to do something about it is to be honest.
If they are legal frogs, there's nothing to hide, nothing to cover up, only something to be proud of..

1) this statement would make the document worthless, that would mean that all the dendrobatidae are legal because this one document can be used for all of them; the species of the animal or plant should be specified on the document.
In the Netherelands imports have been completely confiscated because of one name that was not correct.
I know this for a fact; I have imported plants myself, also from the USA, and allmost lost a shipment of plants coming from the 'blue rich moutains' because the nurcery made a misstake with one name, the result was that the shipment got stopped by the douane.
It took a long time before I cleared it up with the help of friends from a well respected botanical garden, but allmost half of the plants where allready died when I finally got them.
Also the botanical garden recieved many confiscated plant shipments, because the papers where not filled-in correctly.
This is with frogs no different.

2) That might be true; but I would not burn my hands on frogs like that without a copy of the cites-document; When you own these frogs, you are the one respondsible, not the dealer.
In Holland some people have had some big trouble because of it.

3) Don't know where you got that information, but it's not correct; only think about all the E. mysteriosus that are around; they are illegal, and the offspring is illegal too. 
You can proof that they are bred in your Country, but still they are illegal if the parents are illegal.
The same is for all the other frogs without clear papers.

So yes; in fact also your galactonotus are illegal, Dave, specially if you have the D. galactonotus 'Moonshine', selling these makes you a moonraker....
Or maybe these can be considered a native species? maybe they are from the everglades?

We all know that frogs like galactonotus breed like rabbits, that's the difference with frogs like histrionica, sylvatica, lehmanni, granulifera, etc. and we all know it.

For that reason I would say; at this moment it should be possible to keep E. mysteriosus; there are so many of these frogs around in captivity, and they also breed like rabbits, that it should not be a problem anymore.
The populations in the wild can be left alone.

This kind of mess-up in the hobby only arises because of no good registration-system to protect ourselfs against it.


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> I think what Erik means is that if you own this kind of questionable frogs, you should not be affraid to draw the attention, and have the proof there that they are in fact legal.
> 
> We should be more clear about it that these frogs are not so commonly bred, and a big difference with f.e. a D. galactonotus.
> The breeding lines are not going back generations, we all know it, so why keep on turning circels around it?
> The only way to do something about it is to be honest.
> If they are legal frogs, there's nothing to hide, nothing to cover up, only something to be proud of..
> 
> 1) this statement would make the document worthless, that would mean that all the dendrobatidae are legal because this one document can be used for all of them; the species of the animal or plant should be specified on the document.
> In the Netherelands imports have been completely confiscated because of one name that was not correct.
> I know this for a fact; I have imported plants myself, also from the USA, and allmost lost a shipment of plants coming from the 'blue rich moutains' because the nurcery made a misstake with one name, the result was that the shipment got stopped by the douane.
> It took a long time before I cleared it up with the help of friends from a well respected botanical garden, but allmost half of the plants where allready died when I finally got them.
> Also the botanical garden recieved many confiscated plant shipments, because the papers where not filled-in correctly.
> This is with frogs no different.
> 
> 2) That might be true; but I would not burn my hands on frogs like that without a copy of the cites-document; When you own these frogs, you are the one respondsible, not the dealer.
> In Holland some people have had some big trouble because of it.
> 
> 3) Don't know where you got that information, but it's not correct; only think about all the E. mysteriosus that are around; they are illegal, and the offspring is illegal too.
> You can proof that they are bred in your Country, but still they are illegal if the parents are illegal.
> The same is for all the other frogs without clear papers.
> 
> So yes; in fact also your galactonotus are illegal, Dave, specially if you have the D. galactonotus 'Moonshine', selling these makes you a moonraker....
> Or maybe these can be considered a native species? maybe they are from the everglades?
> 
> We all know that frogs like galactonotus breed like rabbits, that's the difference with frogs like histrionica, sylvatica, lehmanni, granulifera, etc. and we all know it.
> 
> For that reason I would say; at this moment it should be possible to keep E. mysteriosus; there are so many of these frogs around in captivity, and they also breed like rabbits, that it should not be a problem anymore.
> The populations in the wild can be left alone.
> 
> This kind of mess-up in the hobby only arises because of no good registration-system to protect ourselfs against it.


1. You've gone back on what you said about believing us a few posts back. A mistake or a lie? If a lie were you lying then, or now? Wait, nevermind...we have no reason to trust either answer from you. You have also demonstrated that you clearly do not understand this aspect of the cites treaty...yet again.

2. I would agree in many but perhaps not all cases. It would depend on the species and the dealer, and the knowledge I had of both and circumstances in general.

3. I think Ed was referring to animals that came from stock that were imported legally, but I'll let him clarify the point himself.

The red galacts came in under paper work granted by the U.S. government, essentially that means we have tacit approval from the government and for all intents and purposes here they are legal to own If they are from that stock. Though the government could change their minds about that at any time. Are they ethical to own? maybe, maybe not...depends on your opinion of what constitutes an ethical to own frog, which we've already discussed. Thats a personal decision, not necessarily a legal one. Mine are not moonshine, but as far as I know the moonshine came with papers also. By saying my red galacts are Illegal you have made yet another accusation.

There are few commercial breeders actively breeding red galacts and they are rarely offered by individuals compared to most other species. One of the few consistent sources has a waiting list over a year long. So that particular morph is not breeding like rabbits here, at least not currently. I would point out that this is yet another time you have demonstrated a lack of knowledge concerning circumstances in the U.S. hobby.

As for registration, we've already talked about this. Unless it is government mandated and enforced it is practically useless here in the U.S. The majority of the American people seem to be against most forms of registering personal property. The one contradiction I can think of is, that hand gun laws may now have been passed in some states making it mandatory to register those weapons in that particular state. Many people in other countries have lost rights and property they once had because of laws like that and an unwillingness or inability to effectively fight such laws.

No offense Fred but it is getting tiresome having to correct your information repeatedly and double check your past statements to make sure you were being honest or try to figure out in which case you were being honest when you make statements that contradict each other...repeatedly.


----------



## fred

Dendro Dave said:


> 1. You've gone back on what you said about believing us a few posts back. A mistake or a lie? If a lie were you lying then, or now? Wait, nevermind...we have no reason to trust either answer from you. You have also demonstrated that you clearly do not understand this aspect of the cites treaty...yet again.
> 
> 2. I would agree in many but perhaps not all cases. It would depend on the species and the dealer, and the knowledge I had of both and circumstances in general.
> 
> 3. I think Ed was referring to animals that came from stock that were imported legally, but I'll let him clarify the point himself.
> 
> The red galacts came in under paper work granted by the U.S. government, essentially that means we have tacit approval from the government and for all intents and purposes here they are legal to own If they are from that stock. Though the government could change their minds about that at any time. Are they ethical to own? maybe, maybe not...depends on your opinion of what constitutes an ethical to own frog, which we've already discussed. Thats a personal decision, not necessarily a legal one. Mine are not moonshine, but as far as I know the moonshine came with papers also. By saying my red galacts are Illegal you have made yet another accusation.
> 
> There are few commercial breeders actively breeding red galacts and they are rarely offered by individuals compared to most other species. One of the few consistent sources has a waiting list over a year long. So that particular morph is not breeding like rabbits here, at least not currently. I would point out that this is yet another time you have demonstrated a lack of knowledge concerning circumstances in the U.S. hobby.
> 
> As for registration, we've already talked about this. Unless it is government mandated and enforced it is practically useless here in the U.S. The majority of the American people seem to be against most forms of registering personal property. The one contradiction I can think of is, that hand gun laws may now have been passed in some states making it mandatory to register those weapons in that particular state. Many people in other countries have lost rights and property they once had because of laws like that and an unwillingness or inability to effectively fight such laws.
> 
> No offense Fred but it is getting tiresome having to correct your information repeatedly and double check your past statements to make sure you were being honest or try to figure out in which case you were being honest when you make statements that contradict each other...repeatedly.



It looks like the horse is not dead anymore..did you beat it, Dave?
Or was it one of the voices in your head that made you do it?
Maybe under the influence of the hot girls?

1) I said from the beginning that I got the information that Colombia didn't give out papers for lehmanni or histrionica, and I still say the same, is that a lie..
If I said these cites-documents are worthless if the species is not mentioned on it, and I still say the same, is that also a lie? 
What are you talking about?
First read, get your information right, then react, and make up your mind how you really feel about it..or are these voices giving you a hard time?

3) That's a little difficult to prove, if something is imported, and there is nothing about the species written on the document....isn't it?

Well, Dave, there are others who brought up the red galactonotus; I think there is no difference in colour-morphs; for as far I know Brasil never gave out permits for galactonotus (but maybe I'm wrong about that, didn't ask it myself), maybe there are also documents with 'dendrobates' what would make all dendrobates from Brasil legal..also castaneoticus which used to be called dendrobates in the past..but this one gave some problems, so I've heard..

Now you say galactonotus are rarely being offered; a few posts back you've said there are many breeders..a misstake or a lie?

'registering personal property'....so if you buy stolen goods (cause that's what it is, smuggled frogs), they become 'personal property'..?
Owning guns, yeah, we can all see the result of that in country's where you legally can own a gun..I see it around me every day..
But well, lets not go there, it's allready made complicated enough.

No offends Dave, but it is getting tiresome to repeat my information again which you pull out of context all the time, and to correct you again..
It's better to leave it to Ed, I must say he is more experienced in it, and you create double work for him, cause he has to correct your texts too.

I still think you're ok, but you have to choose which voice in your head you are going to follow..
Best is to choose the one who is for the community; otherwise you get problems here on the forum


----------



## fred

One more thing, Dave, about this statement:



> There are few commercial breeders actively breeding red galacts and they are rarely offered by individuals compared to most other species. One of the few consistent sources has a waiting list over a year long. So that particular morph is not breeding like rabbits here, at least not currently. I would point out that this is yet another time you have demonstrated a lack of knowledge concerning circumstances in the U.S. hobby.


And you say that I have a lack of knowledge....????
This is one of the most easiest frogs in the hobby to breed, like tinctorius, leucomelas, etc....


----------



## ChrisK

fred said:


> 1) I said from the beginning that I got the information that Colombia didn't give out papers for lehmanni or histrionica, and I still say the same, is that a lie..
> If I said these cites-documents are worthless if the species is not mentioned on it, and I still say the same, is that also a lie?
> What are you talking about?
> First read, get your information right, then react, and make up your mind how you really feel about it..or are these voices giving you a hard time?
> 
> Well, Dave, there are others who brought up the red galactonotus; I think there is no difference in colour-morphs; for as far I know Brasil never gave out permits for galactonotus (but maybe I'm wrong about that, didn't ask it myself), maybe there are also documents with 'dendrobates' what would make all dendrobates from Brasil legal..also castaneoticus which used to be called dendrobates in the past..but this one gave some problems, so I've heard..
> 
> Now you say galactonotus are rarely being offered; a few posts back you've said there are many breeders..a misstake or a lie?



fred you yourself asked me if my frogs were 30 years old because they were not exported LEGALLY in a long time, why the 30 year old reference then?

There ARE long waiting lists for red galacts because they don't breed as readily as the other morphs, like orange and yellow.


----------



## fred

ChrisK said:


> fred you yourself asked me if my frogs were 30 years old because they were not exported LEGALLY in a long time, why the 30 year old reference then?
> 
> There ARE long waiting lists for red galacts because they don't breed as readily as the other morphs, like orange and yellow.


What? that's what....

You allready answer your own question about your frogs..

I heard people say the moonshine was the most difficult to breed, others said it was the lemon-spiderweb, others said the orange didn't breed and others said they stopped the breeding with the red ones, cause they had too much offspring and couldn't sell them..
Exactly the same that some don't breed with leucomelas and others can't stop breeding, or the same story with azureus, etc.
All together, these are the most easiest frogs to breed, that's well known in the hobby..

Or maybe the ones you have there are different?

No problem; just import them from Brasil; all you need is a cites-document that says: 'dendrobates'..
Or buy them from the smugglers, that saves a lot of paper-work; they are all ready legal so who needs papers?


----------



## ChrisK

OK again, why did you ask if my histrionicus were 30 years old since it's been that long since they were exported legally if now you're saying they were never exported legally? Which statement do you stand by, and why did you use the other statement that you're not standing by?


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> 1) this statement would make the document worthless, that would mean that all the dendrobatidae are legal because this one document can be used for all of them; the species of the animal or plant should be specified on the document.
> In the Netherelands imports have been completely confiscated because of one name that was not correct.
> I know this for a fact; I have imported plants myself, also from the USA, and allmost lost a shipment of plants coming from the 'blue rich moutains' because the nurcery made a misstake with one name, the result was that the shipment got stopped by the douane.
> It took a long time before I cleared it up with the help of friends from a well respected botanical garden, but allmost half of the plants where allready died when I finally got them.
> Also the botanical garden recieved many confiscated plant shipments, because the papers where not filled-in correctly.
> This is with frogs no different.


This was explained in post number #615 and #620. Again, one is attempting to use a totally seperate example to make the point. It also does not agree with the data freely available in the CITES Trade Database that animals and plants have routinely and recently been imported into the Netherlands (Holland) with only the genus as the identifier. Sorry Fred but your own goverment through it's reporting to CITES does not support your claim. 




fred said:


> 2) That might be true; but I would not burn my hands on frogs like that without a copy of the cites-document; When you own these frogs, you are the one respondsible, not the dealer.
> In Holland some people have had some big trouble because of it.


So? This in no way contradicts anything I've said. 



fred said:


> 3) Don't know where you got that information, but it's not correct; only think about all the E. mysteriosus that are around; they are illegal, and the offspring is illegal too.
> You can proof that they are bred in your Country, but still they are illegal if the parents are illegal.
> The same is for all the other frogs without clear papers.


If they are from legal animals, then by extension all offspring are legal and no paperwork needs to follow them around.


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> .
> 
> There are few commercial breeders actively breeding red galacts and they are rarely offered by individuals compared to most other species. One of the few consistent sources has a waiting list over a year long. So that particular morph is not breeding like rabbits here, at least not currently. I would point out that this is yet another time you have demonstrated a lack of knowledge concerning circumstances in the U.S. hobby.


This is not because it is considered hard to breed over here, but simply because the popularity cycles. It became unpopular and the numbers declined until only a few people were working with it, and demand is high again... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> 1) I said from the beginning that I got the information that Colombia didn't give out papers for lehmanni or histrionica, and I still say the same, is that a lie..


And it was rapidly demonstrated that this was at best an incorrect statement on your part based on the information provided by the Colombian goverment. 



fred said:


> If I said these cites-documents are worthless if the species is not mentioned on it, and I still say the same, is that also a lie?


As noted it is a meaningless value judgement as the signatories including but not limited to the Netherlands, Germany, Colombia, USA, Canada etc, routinely demonstrate that your statement is at best moot based on thier issuance and acceptance of the permits as outlined in the CITES trade database. 




fred said:


> 3) That's a little difficult to prove, if something is imported, and there is nothing about the species written on the document....isn't it?


Prove that it wasn't imported under that designation. You can't... even though under your own admission, those species were made available during the period Colombia exported almost 3000 frogs as Dendrobates spp. (and also ignoring the fact that large numbers were also exported under the species designation from Ecuador..).


----------



## NathanB

if you wouldn't buy WC Lehmanni, what WC frogs would you buy? keeping in mind they were harvested in a way that didn't harm native populations


----------



## ChrisK

Hey fred :



ChrisK said:


> OK again, why did you ask if my histrionicus were 30 years old since it's been that long since they were exported legally if now you're saying they were never exported legally? Which statement do you stand by, and why did you use the other statement that you're not standing by?


----------



## fred

Ed said:


> This was explained in post number #615 and #620. Again, one is attempting to use a totally seperate example to make the point. It also does not agree with the data freely available in the CITES Trade Database that animals and plants have routinely and recently been imported into the Netherlands (Holland) with only the genus as the identifier. Sorry Fred but your own goverment through it's reporting to CITES does not support your claim.
> 
> If they are from legal animals, then by extension all offspring are legal and no paperwork needs to follow them around.



Hi Ed, 
Does it also mention when the imports are confiscated; cause that has happend a lot in the Netherlands with shipments without the specific species written on it..
Sending an export is one, get it throu the customs is another story..well, in Holland at least.

Yeah, and that's the point; how do you know when the animals are legal if everything just can be named by genus..that opens a lot of doors for smuggling..


----------



## fred

Ed said:


> This is not because it is considered hard to breed over here, but simply because the popularity cycles. It became unpopular and the numbers declined until only a few people were working with it, and demand is high again...
> 
> Ed


There ya go, Dave..


----------



## fred

Ed said:


> And it was rapidly demonstrated that this was at best an incorrect statement on your part based on the information provided by the Colombian goverment.
> 
> As noted it is a meaningless value judgement as the signatories including but not limited to the Netherlands, Germany, Colombia, USA, Canada etc, routinely demonstrate that your statement is at best moot based on thier issuance and acceptance of the permits as outlined in the CITES trade database.
> 
> Prove that it wasn't imported under that designation. You can't... even though under your own admission, those species were made available during the period Colombia exported almost 3000 frogs as Dendrobates spp. (and also ignoring the fact that large numbers were also exported under the species designation from Ecuador..).



No, the point is that there are no papers (or very old with just a few specimens on it, eleven, I believe) that say 'D. lehmanni'..or 'histrionica'..
Just 'dendrobates', and that says nothing.

More important; prove that it was imported under that designation, you can't..because there is no species name on it.
That means that they are all illegal when suddenly someone from the government would start a research.
Prove they are legal, you can't.


----------



## ChrisK

fred said:


> No, the point is that there are no papers (or very old with just a few specimens on it, eleven, I believe) that say 'D. lehmanni'..or 'histrionica'..
> Just 'dendrobates', and that says nothing.
> 
> More important; prove that it was imported under that designation, you can't..because there is no species name on it.
> That means that they are all illegal when suddenly someone from the government would start a research.
> Prove they are legal, you can't.


You just proved Ed's point. And noone needs to prove anything is legal, there needs to be proof that they _aren't_ legal.


----------



## fred

ChrisK said:


> Hey fred :


Hi Chris, 

If you go back al the way to the first threads (which were closed), you can read that I've said there, that there is some a small import in the eighties what seemed to be legal, and these were 'bull's eyes', no 'red heads'.
That's the information I received.

I said that it is very unlikely that there are still animals living from that old import, and more unlikely that they changed into another morph..
But we've been there before..


----------



## fred

ChrisK said:


> You just proved Ed's point. And noone needs to prove anything is legal, there needs to be proof that they _aren't_ legal.


Until someone start asking questions and maybe start thinking: 'this is wild-west'..'a form of anarchy, that can't go on like this'..
Maybe they will even close down the hobby and forbid it further because of it; some signs are allready there, I couldn't help notice..

And don't forget you are talking about endangered, protected animals..


----------



## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> It looks like the horse is not dead anymore..did you beat it, Dave?
> Or was it one of the voices in your head that made you do it?
> Maybe under the influence of the hot girls?
> 
> 1) I said from the beginning that I got the information that Colombia didn't give out papers for lehmanni or histrionica, and I still say the same, is that a lie..
> If I said these cites-documents are worthless if the species is not mentioned on it, and I still say the same, is that also a lie?
> What are you talking about?
> First read, get your information right, then react, and make up your mind how you really feel about it..or are these voices giving you a hard time?
> 
> 3) That's a little difficult to prove, if something is imported, and there is nothing about the species written on the document....isn't it?
> 
> Well, Dave, there are others who brought up the red galactonotus; I think there is no difference in colour-morphs; for as far I know Brasil never gave out permits for galactonotus (but maybe I'm wrong about that, didn't ask it myself), maybe there are also documents with 'dendrobates' what would make all dendrobates from Brasil legal..also castaneoticus which used to be called dendrobates in the past..but this one gave some problems, so I've heard..
> 
> Now you say galactonotus are rarely being offered; a few posts back you've said there are many breeders..a misstake or a lie?
> 
> 'registering personal property'....so if you buy stolen goods (cause that's what it is, smuggled frogs), they become 'personal property'..?
> Owning guns, yeah, we can all see the result of that in country's where you legally can own a gun..I see it around me every day..
> But well, lets not go there, it's allready made complicated enough.
> 
> No offends Dave, but it is getting tiresome to repeat my information again which you pull out of context all the time, and to correct you again..
> It's better to leave it to Ed, I must say he is more experienced in it, and you create double work for him, cause he has to correct your texts too.
> 
> I still think you're ok, but you have to choose which voice in your head you are going to follow..
> Best is to choose the one who is for the community; otherwise you get problems here on the forum


While ignoring your thinly veiled attempts to provoke me here is my response...

1. A few post back you said this "Also not very important is who is right or wrong about some paperwork.If you want to hear me say that I'm wrong about the paperwork; no problem, here it is: I'm wrong....and now?....it changes nothing.I can keep going on telling you they never gave out papers for these frogs here, and even if you believe me, it wouldn't change anything." 

I assumed you were being honest when you said you were wrong. The rest of it about having papers in holland is mostly irrelevant because I never said they did, I was strictly speaking about the cites documents from Columbia that said "dendrobates sp." But if you wanna get technical you did say you were wrong about the documents, as a general statement relating to all the documents. So except for possibly giving you more credit then you deserved there was no lie or mistake on my part there.

2. Regarding this statement of yours "If I said these cites-documents are worthless if the species is not mentioned on it, and I still say the same, is that also a lie?" You did say that, but you also said you were wrong about the documents. So at the very least it is a contradiction, also you opinion that the cites treaty is worthless was founded on a misunderstanding of the conditions of which the frogs were listed as "dendrobates sp"

You are entitled to you opinion but it is not supported by the facts...is Cites flawed? Ya probably, is it worthless...I don't think so and I don't think the evidence supports that it is worthless. You in fact related a story about a shipment getting seized for a mistake due to cites regulations, that was cites in action working to protect against smuggling. While in that case it may have been a mistake it could have been an attempt by someone to smuggle in which case it would have been stopped by cites.

3. I'm not arguing with that statement. I agree that all species should be listed individually in most cases.

As for the rest of what you said in that post, I never claimed galacts had papers from Colombia, or were legal according to columbian law. I said that that by the U.S. government granting them papers they had tacitly said they were legal here for us to own...for now. There is a distinction there one you seem to have failed to notice, or just ignored.

Can you please show me where I said there are many galact breeders? I can only find statements about the frog being common in the hobby compared to histronica and lehmanni. Which they are...and at one time there were a fair number of people having success with them, but given that the frog is much harder to get now instead of easier it seems there are few actual "breeders" though their may be many "owners". Again a distinction you have failed to see or intentionally ignored to help your own position. I guess you hoped no one would notice the mistake or if you intentionally ignored the distinction then the dishonesty.

I can't tell if you are just not understanding or if you are attempting to put words in my mouth to support your own claims but either way you've made yet another mistake and put out false information which I have just corrected again.

As far as registration goes as it relates to guns, the guns that you can legally register are your personal property and not stolen. I was not talking about stolen guns...Just like frogs I'm sure if you attempt register something illegal you will get in trouble if such a system was in place for frogs. But because a frog was never legally exported doesn't mean you are in violation of U.S. law for owning it if they grant you papers for it. You may be in violation of Columbia's law but we are under no legal obligation that I know of to follow Columbian law in that situation unless our government tells us we must...and so far they haven't thus giving tacit legal approval to ownership of the frogs. Again you are either failing to grasp the points made or ignoring them without giving evidence to support your reason why.

Regarding this statement..."No offends Dave, but it is getting tiresome to repeat my information again which you pull out of context all the time, and to correct you again..It's better to leave it to Ed, I must say he is more experienced in it, and you create double work for him, cause he has to correct your texts too."

Here you attempt to turn my words back at me and like almost every attempt you've made to counter my arguments it has failed, though often you just never bothered to try to counter my arguments or points made with anything other then personal opinion, very few actual facts or evidence. You may think you have corrected me in some instances and your welcome to that opinion but most of your attempts were ill conceived and failed because I didn't actually need correcting. You seem to be the only one that feels I needed correcting in most cases. Yet the majority of people responding to you in this thread even ones who agreed with what you said seemed to think you needed correcting or agreed with people when they did attempt to correct you. 

I believe I have readily admitted to every instance where someone has shown I was wrong about my "facts" or said something mistakenly in this thread and had evidence to back up that claim, or made a convincing counter argument. You have not in my opinion.

I don't remember Ed correcting me, but I may be mistaken. Can you show me where he did that? My guess is if it has happened it only happened once or twice...far less then the number of times people have thought you needed correcting throughout this thread.

Regarding the statement made in your next reply... "And you say that I have a lack of knowledge....????
This is one of the most easiest frogs in the hobby to breed, like tinctorius, leucomelas, etc...."

They may be easy to breed in Holland or the EU but for some reason the last few years many people here have had trouble getting consistent success or they stopped attempting to breed them because of a short term lack of demand, but demand seems to have risen again and now there are not enough frogs to quickly fill that demand. Thats why one breeder has a waiting list over a year long, and on the rare occasions the other commercial breeders having fairly consistent success offer frogs they are snapped up very quickly. Also the occasional individual having success and offering frogs usually sells them quickly and sometimes at a substantially higher price then the commercial breeders sell theirs for.

Compared to other common species in the hobby HERE there is not as much active breeding going on...though many especially now are trying to make up for that. They are considered common but they are not as common here as tinc/azureus, auratus, or leucs and many other frogs but they are far more common then histronica and lehmanni especially when to take all the morphs as whole. It is mostly only the reds and moonshine that are currently that hard to get compared to most "common" frogs.

Hopefully this post wasn't to long or complicated and you won't just ignore it. With your continued failure to acknowledge facts, evidence, logic and reasoning though, I doubt any reply will be very constructive. You seemed to have moved further away from trying to have a constructive dialog that may help with your supposed goal to save the frogs and have moved more towards just attempting to discredit or provoke people here. Maybe that is how you hope to gain support to save the frogs and your intentions are actually still good if not ill conceived or perhaps you just need the attention. In which case I guess we're the idiots for giving it to you, but I'd rather be the idiot hoping someone will see reason then the one who just wants attention, if that is the case.


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## Ed

fred said:


> No, the point is that there are no papers (or very old with just a few specimens on it, eleven, I believe) that say 'D. lehmanni'..or 'histrionica'..
> Just 'dendrobates', and that says nothing.
> 
> More important; prove that it was imported under that designation, you can't..because there is no species name on it.
> That means that they are all illegal when suddenly someone from the government would start a research.
> Prove they are legal, you can't.


The CITES trade database shows that the Netherlands has repeatedly accepted animals, plants and specifically dendrobatid frogs under that form of identification and in addition the Netherlands has granted CITES export permits allowing them to be exported under those designations.

While there may be seizures of shipments that contain animals or plants identified as the genus, you cannot simply say it was only because of that they were correctly identified by down to the genus (as it is obviously legal to do so) that they were seized.... 

Ed


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## ChrisK

fred said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> If you go back al the way to the first threads (which were closed), you can read that I've said there, that there is some a small import in the eighties what seemed to be legal, and these were 'bull's eyes', no 'red heads'.
> That's the information I received.
> 
> I said that it is very unlikely that there are still animals living from that old import, and more unlikely that they changed into another morph..
> But we've been there before..


Well if you're being truthful then possibly the information you received was incorrect or incomplete, there are plenty of bullseye, red head, and other histrionicus f2 and further still being bred from legal imports.


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## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> Hopefully this post wasn't to long or complicated and you won't just ignore it. With your continued failure to ignore facts, evidence, logic and reasoning though, I doubt any reply will be very constructive. You seemed to have moved further away from trying to have a constructive dialog that may help with your supposed goal to save the frogs and have moved more towards just attempting to discredit or provoke people here. Maybe that is how you hope to gain support to save the frogs and your intentions are actually still good if not ill conceived or perhaps you just need the attention. In which case I guess we're the idiots for giving it to you, but I'd rather be the idiot hoping someone will see reason then the one who just wants attention, if that is the case.


Dave,

Instead of wearing out your fingers virtually all of his arguments have been argued already.. Just reference him back to the post where it was addressed. 

Ed


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## Ed

ChrisK said:


> You just proved Ed's point. And noone needs to prove anything is legal, there needs to be proof that they _aren't_ legal.


Correct, they could have been exported/imported under those various shipments. If as alleged someone in the goverment is doing research and deciding they are illegal, then in all probability they are not doing much in the way of research as they should have turned up the possibility of export and import as reported in the CITES trade database. 

Ed


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## fred

Ed said:


> The CITES trade database shows that the Netherlands has repeatedly accepted animals, plants and specifically dendrobatid frogs under that form of identification and in addition the Netherlands has granted CITES export permits allowing them to be exported under those designations.
> 
> While there may be seizures of shipments that contain animals or plants identified as the genus, you cannot simply say it was only because of that they were correctly identified by down to the genus (as it is obviously legal to do so) that they were seized....
> 
> Ed


Well, they don't send them back; mostly them will bring them to botanical gardens or Zoo's.

Do you think it is a safe system when you only need to fill in the genus?
Does that protect the animals and plants that it should protect?


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## NathanB

You seem to be forgetting that the exporting country has to ok the shipment?


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## ChrisK

fred said:


> Do you think it is a safe system when you only need to fill in the genus?
> Does that protect the animals and plants that it should protect?


That's irrelevant to the argument of whether it happened or not.


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## Ed

fred said:


> Well, they don't send them back; mostly them will bring them to botanical gardens or Zoo's.


It doesn't matter where they send them as this does nothing to support your argument that they are seized because they are identified to the level of the genus on a CITES export/import permits. This is immaterial to the discussion at hand. 



fred said:


> Do you think it is a safe system when you only need to fill in the genus?
> Does that protect the animals and plants that it should protect?


In this discussion, it doesn't matter what I think. The facts are the facts, and I am only dealing in the facts... 

Ed


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## Ed

bussardnr said:


> You seem to be forgetting that the exporting country has to ok the shipment?


Correct, the exporting country has to issue the CITES permit along (if needed) with any other appliciable export paperwork... 

Ed


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## earthfrog

Fred, are you just trying to instigate trouble? Or do you genuinely not understand that these people are valuable friends that are trying to help you clear up this issue?


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## markbudde

I have never seen lehmanni in person, and onyl know of one person on dendroboard who has them.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/16605-making-fake-rocks-17.html#post488308


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## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> There ya go, Dave..


I think the closest thing I said to "them being hard to breed" was either this statement...
"There are few commercial breeders actively breeding red galacts and they are rarely offered by individuals compared to most other species. One of the few consistent sources has a waiting list over a year long. So that particular morph is not breeding like rabbits here, at least not currently. I would point out that this is yet another time you have demonstrated a lack of knowledge concerning circumstances in the U.S. hobby."

Or this statement...
"They may be easy to breed in Holland or the EU but for some reason the last few years many people here have had trouble getting consistent success or they stopped attempting to breed them because of a short term lack of demand, but demand seems to have risen again and now there are not enough frogs to quickly fill that demand."

If you'll read it again I said "have had trouble getting consistent success OR they stopped attempting to breed them because of lack of demand. I offered 2 potential reasons for the lower numbers I did not actually say specifically that the reason was in fact they were hard to breed. There is a difference.

In the first statement I made what could be termed a vague value judgment...My idea of "breeding like rabbits" may be different then other peoples. Again technically I did not say they were difficult to breed. The reason they were not breeding like rabbits might be because people aren't trying to make them, not because they are difficult to breed. I will admit that I kind of implied that though. But technically that in my mind is not a "correction" by Ed but more of a clarification. 

So if that was what you were all excited about, the possibility that Ed was correcting me there sorry but I think you were mistaken. It may have been his intention that his statement be a correction, but in fact It was more of a clarification in my opinion. I don't know if Ed will agree with that assessment or not but even if he doesn't that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it unless he has a convincing counter argument. 

Oh and Ed as far as referencing threads, keeping all this crap straight and finding the past threads more then a page or 2 back is kinda hard with my crappy memory so most of the time with the speed at which I think (which is much better then the reliability of my memory) and type this is the easier course for me usually  But a good suggestion none the less.


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## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> ISo if that was what you were all excited about, the possibility that Ed was correcting me there sorry but I think you were mistaken. It may have been his intention that his statement be a correction, but in fact It was more of a clarification in my opinion. I don't know if Ed will agree with that assessment or not but even if he doesn't that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it unless he has a convincing counter argument.


Clarification



Dendro Dave said:


> Oh and Ed as far as referencing threads, keeping all this crap straight and finding the past threads more then a page or 2 back is kinda hard with my crappy memory so most of the time with the speed at which I think (which is much better then the reliability of my memory) and type this is the easier course for me usually  But a good suggestion none the less.


I was only trying to suggest a labor saving process. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> Clarification
> 
> 
> 
> I was only trying to suggest a labor saving process.
> 
> Ed


Wow I was like 90%+ sure that would be your basic answer...that is awsome that I can count on such behavior to that degree with you and many other people on this board  ...I only wish Fred was so reasonable.

As for your suggestion it was appreciated and if it wasn't for my particular circumstances and/or my wacky sense of what constitutes more work using one method vs another it would probably be the best solution...hell might still be, I could be mistaken about myself ...To lazy for now to test that theory though even if it is in my best interests


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## fred

It seems that I can't go for a few ours out to work..looks like you can't live without me anymore..

Well, sorry but I'm not going to respond on all these double and over again answered lines of text again, that's useless.
It seems that we have different opinions here, and different values about what is important and what isn't.

For me that's ok; I have respect for other opinions and values, cultures, religions, etc.
Only point here is the frogs, but, nothing to do about it, I think I did try to get through to you, but I didn't, ok, pity, but not the end of the world; just some frog-populations, that's all.

One thing; Dave; If you ask yourself why some of my comments are maybe a little bit less friendly then they could have been; read back some of your own lines and read them if they were adressed to you, then you'll understand.
I've noticed here that if someone tries to be friendly, it will be explained as weakness, and it will be punished.
When you're a little less friendly, lets say even a little nasty, people are a bit more friendly, strange phenomenon..

Well, I guess its time to say goodbye now (one virus received today on my computer is enough I think, for so far the theory about 'the freedom to speak')

I would say, keep the discussion going, with frustrations and all, doesn't matter as long people talk and think about it, it's ok
And maybe something changes one day, we'll never know.


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## ErikHa

ChrisK said:


> Well if you're being truthful then possibly the information you received was incorrect or incomplete, there are plenty of bullseye, red head, and other histrionicus f2 and further still being bred from legal imports.


Are you referring to the only legal imports of 30 years back? 
You know, the feeble stressed out imported frogs full of parasites we didn't know how to care for properly?

That would be quite unique. 

A handful of hobbyists generating enough WC frogs to satisfy the enormous demand for a much coveted (expensive) species like histrionica? In various morphs? 

Some sort of secret elite group of frogkeepers that cater for the entire demand for this species. Wow. 
I'd like to meet some of these magicians. I imagine they're really proud of their work. Surely they'd like to tell us all about their amazing breeding success.

I'd like to shake the hands of these experts. Where can we find these great frogkeepers? Are they members of this messageboard? 

Where are their 150-tank breeding facilities? Perhaps in the crater of a dormant volcano?


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## ErikHa

bussardnr said:


> if you wouldn't buy WC Lehmanni, what WC frogs would you buy? keeping in mind they were harvested in a way that didn't harm native populations


Well that excludes buying them. Their population is just too small to allow 'harmless' harvesting. 
In my book that makes a hobbyist owning them an environmental criminal.


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## Ed

ErikHa said:


> Are you referring to the only legal imports of 30 years back?
> You know, the feeble stressed out imported frogs full of parasites we didn't know how to care for properly?


Erik,
Have you been following this thread? Or are you only responding to Chris's comment to Fred to wind Chris up?

I'm asking because according to the CITES trade data base there is no support to the allegation that the only legal imports only occured 30 years ago. See my comments in post #591 (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54899-would-you-buy-wc-lehmanni-60.html ), post #600 (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54899-would-you-buy-wc-lehmanni-60.html), post 620 (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54899-would-you-buy-wc-lehmanni-62.html), post 679 (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54899-would-you-buy-wc-lehmanni-68.html), post 688 (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54899-would-you-buy-wc-lehmanni-69.html), 690 (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54899-would-you-buy-wc-lehmanni-69.html), post 700 (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54899-would-you-buy-wc-lehmanni-70.html)....


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## Dendro Dave

fred said:


> It seems that I can't go for a few ours out to work..looks like you can't live without me anymore..
> 
> Well, sorry but I'm not going to respond on all these double and over again answered lines of text again, that's useless.
> It seems that we have different opinions here, and different values about what is important and what isn't.
> 
> For me that's ok; I have respect for other opinions and values, cultures, religions, etc.
> Only point here is the frogs, but, nothing to do about it, I think I did try to get through to you, but I didn't, ok, pity, but not the end of the world; just some frog-populations, that's all.
> 
> One thing; Dave; If you ask yourself why some of my comments are maybe a little bit less friendly then they could have been; read back some of your own lines and read them if they were adressed to you, then you'll understand.
> I've noticed here that if someone tries to be friendly, it will be explained as weakness, and it will be punished.
> When you're a little less friendly, lets say even a little nasty, people are a bit more friendly, strange phenomenon..
> 
> Well, I guess its time to say goodbye now (one virus received today on my computer is enough I think, for so far the theory about 'the freedom to speak')
> 
> I would say, keep the discussion going, with frustrations and all, doesn't matter as long people talk and think about it, it's ok
> And maybe something changes one day, we'll never know.


You have not been respecting peoples opinions for the most part.There is at least proof of that given all the accusations. Where as when I challenged an opinion of yours I said you were entitled to it but offered evidence or facts to support why I thought it was wrong most times where you usually just offered more opinions.

I fully admit I got a little nasty especially in some of my later posts, thats why I went back to just addressing your points and giving evidence of why they were flawed or wrong, and showing examples of where you contradicted yourself or needed to be corrected for the most part. But you continued to be nasty up till this last post of yours, and back when I tried to shift to being friendly you kept up with the nastiness despite it all. So we are both guilty of that....I'm stopping.

As for viruses, I've noticed that in the last couple days dendroboard has supposedly been hosting malware...Looks like we pissed someone off somewhere.


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## ErikHa

Ed, do i understand you are assuming 2890 'dendrobates' frogs imported from Colombia in 1993 were lehmanni or histrionica. Why do you assume this when there numerous species of poison dart frogs living in Colombia? 

What makes you think any of the stock would still be alive when we see species go in and out of 'fashion' every day in this hobby? How many people still own trunctatus or pictus?

I'm not trying to provoke anything more than clear answers. If ChrisK claims that lots of hobbyists manage to breed histrionica then why is _his_ breeding account one of the first in years i have read? 

Why the secrecy? If one manages to breed a species still considered difficult to breed, it should be something proud of. Instead we get these vague rumours that sources supply great number of captive bred histrionica. Where are these breeders? Why don't they offer their frogs out in the open? 

To me this sounds like the situation in Germany where wild caught, illegal frogs are being sold as _nachzucht_, captive bred. Large mature and sexeable frogs are being passed of as being bred in captivity.


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## rmelancon

ErikHa said:


> ...I'm not trying to provoke anything more than clear answers. If ChrisK claims that lots of hobbyists manage to breed histrionica then why is _his_ breeding account one of the first in years i have read?
> 
> Why the secrecy? If one manages to breed a species still considered difficult to breed, it should be something proud of. Instead we get these vague rumours that sources supply great number of captive bred histrionica. Where are these breeders? Why don't they offer their frogs out in the open? ...


There are many, many reasons why there is a perceived "secrecy" and why these frogs are not offered "out in the open". Not the least of which is dealing with all the insanity contained in this thread. Second on the list is having to deal with the flood of requests to get on a waiting list. Just because you don't see it on the internet does not mean it doesn't exist.


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## ChrisK

ErikHa said:


> Ed, do i understand you are assuming 2890 'dendrobates' frogs imported from Colombia in 1993 were lehmanni or histrionica. Why do you assume this when there numerous species of poison dart frogs living in Colombia?


They were the frogs being sold at the time, were you seeing terribilis or many of the others around at the time?



ErikHa said:


> What makes you think any of the stock would still be alive when we see species go in and out of 'fashion' every day in this hobby? How many people still own trunctatus or pictus?


Lots of people post their truncatus on here.



ErikHa said:


> ?
> I'm not trying to provoke anything more than clear answers. If ChrisK claims that lots of hobbyists manage to breed histrionica then why is _his_ breeding account one of the first in years i have read?
> 
> Why the secrecy? If one manages to breed a species still considered difficult to breed, it should be something proud of. Instead we get these vague rumours that sources supply great number of captive bred histrionica. Where are these breeders? Why don't they offer their frogs out in the open?


Do you really search them out? If you did any research just on this forum alone, you would see at least f2 histrionicus froglets, and at _least_ 4 accounts of histrionicus group frogs being successfully bred. There are plenty of others I know personally who just do not post on here, not to mention European breeding since the 80's, and Japanese breeding in the 90's (that I stopped keeping track of back then). I'm sure you can figure out at least _one_ reason after reading all this why not so many are out in the open, as well as plenty of them are doing it a long time and just do not belong to any forums. Do you really think that just because _you_ don't know about something that it doesn't go on?


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## Dendro Dave

ErikHa said:


> Ed, do i understand you are assuming 2890 'dendrobates' frogs imported from Colombia in 1993 were lehmanni or histrionica. Why do you assume this when there numerous species of poison dart frogs living in Colombia?
> 
> What makes you think any of the stock would still be alive when we see species go in and out of 'fashion' every day in this hobby? How many people still own trunctatus or pictus?
> 
> I'm not trying to provoke anything more than clear answers. If ChrisK claims that lots of hobbyists manage to breed histrionica then why is _his_ breeding account one of the first in years i have read?
> 
> Why the secrecy? If one manages to breed a species still considered difficult to breed, it should be something proud of. Instead we get these vague rumours that sources supply great number of captive bred histrionica. Where are these breeders? Why don't they offer their frogs out in the open?
> 
> To me this sounds like the situation in Germany where wild caught, illegal frogs are being sold as _nachzucht_, captive bred. Large mature and sexeable frogs are being passed of as being bred in captivity.


Ed never said that all of them were Histronica or Lehmanni, in fact his whole point was 0-2890 of the frogs could have been or not been. It could have been 1, 600, 2400, any ratio of 1 or both of them to all the other species..we don't know. Frankly I thought he was very clear on that. What he may have done at some point was say something like this..."Even if you assume all 2890 were histroinica and lehmanni then bla bla bla, or that doesn't mean bla bla bla" But if He said something like that it was for the sake of argument, not in the context of that number actually being the true number of histronica and lehmanni. 

As for secrecy some are secret because the owners are unsure of how legit they are, unsure of how they'd be viewed by some for owning them, flat out know their frogs are illegal, or even if they are old legal imports they are afraid that they will get swamped with emails and PMs from people asking if they can buy them...which does happen. Probably other reasons too. If you haven't heard of them breeding other then Chris's you just haven't talked to the right people, there have been a small number of people having steady or occasional success for years. 

They tend to all know each other, and trade/buy from each other and rarely release frogs to the general public till they feel there are enough to do so, or they just really need the money and no friends are buying. There is a lot going on behind the scenes of DB, that most people never hear much about unless they are very plugged into groups that contain some of the long time hobbyists or have connections to them. Many of the people responsible for this hobby having grown as much as it has and the current knowledge we have no longer actively post here or anywhere.

I can tell you old stock of the "legal" imports still exist and are breeding, at least they were up to a year or 2 ago. I've talked to people who have them, I haven't bothered to check into it lately. Not everyone buys frogs then trades them like baseball cards. Many hold on to their first frogs or favorite species/morphs for the entire life of the animal, and these animals can live a very long time. It wouldn't really surprise me to find out a couple frogs from the late 80's may still be alive out there(unlikely, but potentially possible), let alone the mid or late 90's. Whether the old histronica or lehmanni still alive are from Columbia is harder to tell, many of them are probably from Ecuador I think.

As for smuggled frogs and cb offspring of legal frogs being used to hide the smuggled ones, that is one of the main topics this thread has discussed in detail, along with several related ideas or topics. You seemed to have just jumped into the middle of this and missed a lot of what has been discussed and miss understood some of the information you did read. Anyways Unless someone has something new to say, I'm going to TRY to steer clear of this thread for now, and ever


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## Ed

ErikHa said:


> Ed, do i understand you are assuming 2890 'dendrobates' frogs imported from Colombia in 1993 were lehmanni or histrionica. Why do you assume this when there numerous species of poison dart frogs living in Colombia?


Erik,

This statement makes me believe that you have not read anything that I have written including those posts I cited above. I have been very clear in my position, that we do not know what frogs were legally exported under that designation (with the exception that they could not have been Phyllobates) and one cannot assume that no egg feeders were exported at that time (and we have anecdotal evidence to the contrary supplied by Fred). It is probable that some level of those species were exported simply based on profit margin and demand which is supported by anecdotal evidence.. 



ErikHa said:


> What makes you think any of the stock would still be alive when we see species go in and out of 'fashion' every day in this hobby? How many people still own trunctatus or pictus?


For one, as an anecdotal report, I have known people breeding those species from the legal imports for 20 years now. For the most part, they held onto a group of offspring to make assurance groups. 
For two, those species have never gotten common enough to undergo the popularity swings. For a frog to undergo a popularity swing it has to be common enough that the market becomes saturated.... That is the pattern that we have seen. 
For the third, it cannot be shown that none of the frogs have survived or produced offspring.



ErikHa said:


> Why the secrecy? If one manages to breed a species still considered difficult to breed, it should be something proud of. Instead we get these vague rumours that sources supply great number of captive bred histrionica. Where are these breeders? Why don't they offer their frogs out in the open?
> 
> To me this sounds like the situation in Germany where wild caught, illegal frogs are being sold as _nachzucht_, captive bred. Large mature and sexeable frogs are being passed of as being bred in captivity.


There are a lot of reasons.. People incorrectly call it working behind the scenes but it isn't. A lot of the people who have been working with frogs for a very long time don't post on here or even some of the other forums. They just don't have the interest and they have systems that work for themselves so they don't feel the need to be on the forums. This is pretty much the only forum on which I am active anymore as I don't have a lot of time but I have an interest in pushing some husbandry techniques and getting rid of some of the voodoo beliefs. 

Contrary to your allegation, the people I know who are consistently producing histrionica, pretty much are never moving fully adult frogs unless a breeder has been lost, (which is not that common) while well started froglets tend to be the usual routine. 

Ed


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## fred

Finally my computer is ok again and free of the two virus that i received after loggin in here.

But it doesn't stop me to stop writing here..

Eric, don't bother..


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