# mixed tanks



## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

I want to see successful mixed tanks like I’ve put western toads and a bullfrog together for years in a 55g tank and I’ve had a day gecko in with a northern salamander in a 20g tank


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

Use the search function. I'll start you off on a good one.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/46700-anyone-else-breed-other-reptiles.html#post407925
and a better one that is more suited to your situation:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/47539-crested-geckos-dart-frogs.html

As a side note, on these forums punctuation is highly valued by those with the best advice.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

i've seen crested with darts and all search brings up is can i mix or y can't i mix. sorry about the .s my grammar sucks


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

As keepers of these magnificent creatures of the wild it is our responsibility to maintain them in habitats that are as close to nature as we can provide. And in nature a crested gecko and any type of dart frog would NEVER co-exist. They are from half way around the globe from each other. They have evolved over millions of years to live in their little niches of the world. Why would you want to force, and I say force because they have no choice, them to live together in captivity?

I am afraid you may have opened a can of worms that has been opened many times . I am sure a few members will also chime in to beat this dead horse once again . . .


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

What are you talking about I read it I'm not going to mix them Im just asking for people to tell there successful mixed tanks like negs 15, by 5' by 30" Viv or the hill stream viv


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

ok sorry mis read it then . . .


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## wimvanvelzen (Nov 1, 2008)

Nathan, while I understand your point, I think that thinking further along these lines would mean keeping no frogs or reptiles at all. A respectable point of view of course.

Keeping animals in a wrong habitat is bad for sure, but mixing species from say a lowland rainforest from Africa and SA is not different (worse?) than mixing species from the same continent. 
Distance is not a real good criterium IMHO - habitat of origen is.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Hawaii is a gr8 example you have darts from sa geckos from Africa plants from all over


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

vivbulider said:


> What are you talking about I read it I'm not going to mix them Im just asking for people to tell there successful mixed tanks like negs 15, by 5' by 30" Viv or the hill stream viv



Really? ... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/52240-my-240g.html


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

Donn, that was my thought exactly.

Nathan, don't apologize, you read it correctly.

Wimvanvelzen, you might be interested in this post of the crested thread:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/47539-crested-geckos-dart-frogs.html#post414792


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Threads like this make me miss the feedback feature...

vivbuilder, you're not going to find too many pro-mixing folks here. It almost always ends with one of the species dying out due to stress or competition for food.

I really can't understand the mixing/hybrid crowd. These animals are spectacular and display some astounding natural variation WITHIN one species or morph. Why not just be satisfied with that?


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

please read is any one reading my posts i'm not asking if i can mix i'm not asking what i can keep together i'm not asking if you think mixing is ok im not trying to start a fight im asking for people to share there mixed tanks and if they wore succsesful or not like if bill put a dart frog with a day gecko in a 75g and it worked then sally put a dart frog with a mossy frog in a 55g and the mossy ate the pdf


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

vivbulider said:


> please read is any one reading my posts i'm not asking if i can mix i'm not asking what i can keep together i'm not asking if you think mixing is ok im not trying to start a fight im asking for people to share there mixed tanks and if they wore succsesful or not like if bill put a dart frog with a day gecko in a 75g and it worked then sally put a dart frog with a mossy frog in a 55g and the mossy ate the pdf


 
You are nowhere close to being ready to attempt that. 

We can't help you with that information. That's like asking asking a cardiologist about open heart surgery and trying to operate on your grandmother while you are in med school.

Take your time....read a heck of a lot more and when you want to start your first dart frog vivarium, we will be glad to help you along.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

no that was an example i'm not trying to mix day geckos with dart frogs in a 75g or mossys with darts in a 55g and i have had tons of dartfrog tanks


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

edwardsatc said:


> Really? ... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/52240-my-240g.html


I just said I’m not mixing crested with darts


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Who moved this


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

vivbulider said:


> Who moved this


I would guess a moderator. This is a question all beginners ask.

Vivibulider, I'm going to assume you are an open minded mature person, so I'm going to level with you and hope you can absorb this. About once a month someone new comes on this forum and asks a question about mixed tanks (interspecies, hypbrids, etc). They are generally directed to search the previous threads on the subject, but they rarely do. If they did they would see that the threads usually go the same way. 

First, the majority of people advise against it...some based on the fact that it presents a bit of unnecessary risk to the animal, and some based on exaggerated statements about the ethics of mixing. Then a smaller number of people will (usually on principal) defend mixing, pick at the exaggerations and inaccuracies in the previous arguments and tell about the successes they have had, or heard of regarding mixing. The first group will pick apart those accounts for being short term or inconclusive or not applicable. The subject will wander into debate/criticism/veiled insults. The people who like to debate get fired up, and the ones that would just prefer to share a hobby post a couple posts about how they aren't going to post anymore, and then eventually sulk away.

The one thing almost all of them will agree on is that mixing is not for beginners. Now, the original poster will read all this, but for some reason won't think of themselves as a novice. Therefore all they will take away is that some people have had success. They ask for advice, but then argue with it or ignore it.

Are you this months version of that guy?

I always ask this question and never get an answer...Why do you want a mixed tank? 

*My personal opinion is that mixing species is like catching a baseball with your teeth. Sure, it can be done...It has been done...but your best case scenario is that you do no damage. Worst case...


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Thanks for the answer I'm going to mix I have a few years xp with darts tree frogs geckos in a huge tank and to make it work better I'm asking for mixed tanks that work to improve my tank I feel people are just reading the title there are mixed tanks that work


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

vivbulider said:


> Thanks for the answer I'm going to mix I have a few years xp with darts tree frogs geckos in a huge tank and to make it work better I'm asking for mixed tanks that work to improve my tank I feel people are just reading the title there are mixed tanks that work


Nothing in my response is meant to be mean.

Think about the grief you've gotten for just asking for photos of "successful" (and IMO most people who _think_ they have a "successful" mixed tank actually don't) mixed tanks, even after you tried to assure people you weren't asking for information about how to build a mixed tank (even though in the quote above you finally admitted that it was indeed your intent). If this is the kind of response you've gotten for asking for _pictures_ of mixed tanks (I seem to recall something very similar happening when chinoanoah posted asking for pictures of hybrid frogs), just try to imagine the hellfire a user here would receive for posting a picture of a mixed vivarium! There are people on here that would be relentless. There _might_ be a couple of mixed vivariums on the board, but I think that the few pro-mixing advocates on this board have gotten the message that it's generally not accepted around here and have refrained from posting tanks if for no there reason than to save them from all the condescention and negative energy directed their way.

Point is, you're not going to find much of what you're looking for around here. And if there are people around the board who _do_ know where a thread is that you're looking for they're probably not going to direct you to it on principle (they probably hope that by not directing you and by heavily suggesting here that you don't follow through with this (something that I support; don't do this!) it will deter you from following through).

And for the record, the only mixed tank I've seen posted on this board was posted by a member, screen name jellyman. It's a straight dart frog mixed tank, there are not other animals like geckos in it. And personally, although he's not having any fatalities in this tank (from what I know of anyway) I don't think that many members around here consider it successful. I don't have the motivation to look up the thread for you, but that should be enough information to get you where you want to go if you're interested in seeing that tank. 

If you _really_ want to pursue this (and I don't think you should) you should probably join some of the european forums. My understanding is that they're a little looser on the mixing debate. There are european members on here that take a hard "no mixing" stance, but I believe it's a little more accepted over there.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

If you have to come on here and ask complete strangers "what can i mix" then you don't know enough about ANY of the animals in question to attempt a mixed tank. Follow Phils advice and do tons of research. Try keeping each animal for at lest a year, learn their temperments, habits, ect. Try to show you're a grown up and take the keeping of animals lives seriously, not just a kid wanting something cool to look at.

Quite frankly, I don't care if you mix or not. It is your tank, your animals, your right, but don't expect anyone(worth listening to) around here to hold your hand and walk you through it. 

Happy Easter


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would suggest reading the mixing 101 thread and associated links in the care sheet section of the forum. 

I would also suggest paying close attention to the following breakdown of the possible issues (although it is a little outdated and the pathogen problem should be updated as well) in this thread *http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html*

Ed


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

I've read every mixing post 10 times and they all say mixing can work in a big tank and that most people don't have that space here is a successiful mixed tank http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-questions.html and here's another http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/49602-hill-stream-paludarium.html also I saw one a guy was mixing 2 types of frogs and an atb in a tank at his bar


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

All the mixing threads also say you should be VERY experienced before you even think about attempting it. I would hazard a guess and say that you don't fall into the very experienced category. Especially considering the following:


vivbulider said:


> What are you talking about I read it I'm not going to mix them Im just asking for people to tell there successful mixed tanks like negs 15, by 5' by 30" Viv or the hill stream viv





vivbulider said:


> I’m making a 240g tank 4',2',4' l,w,h any tips I’ve never built a tank this big I’ve had darts for a long time so I was thinking about a mixed tank with 4 green & blacks 2 e.tricolors 2 imitators 4 tree frogs and 4-6 geckos


So first you are going to mix, then you're not, then you have a list of planned species. 

You also admit to this being your first attempt at a large tank.

My advice? Build your 240 with ONE specific frog species in mind. If you want to add other critters, maybe a water feature deep enough for some fish or shrimp or etc would satisfy you.

No one on this board is likely to support or encourage your decision to build a mixed species tank. Give it up.


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## calvinyhob (Dec 18, 2007)

To lazy to find this exactly right now but...

"I’m making a 240g tank 4',2',4' l,w,h any tips I’ve never built a tank this big I’ve had darts for a long time so I was thinking about a mixed tank with 4 green & blacks 2 e.tricolors 2 imitators 4 tree frogs and 4-6 geckos"

Alright i have a friend who did this exact thing except it was a 225, mixed different tincs in the tank, ended very badly with only 1 out of 10 frogs alive. He had kept frogs for years like you. If you want to do it then do it and stop getting people pissed off because it sure doesn’t seem like you want to see it you just want justification to do it, and it doesn’t seem like your going to listen to anyone else’s opinion. And im not being mean at all just as a fyi just posting my opinion/observations. 

On the up side i did get the tank at a killer deal and will be posting a build journal shortly..


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

vivbulider said:


> I've read every mixing post 10 times and they all say mixing can work in a big tank and that most people don't have that space here is a successiful mixed tank http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-questions.html and here's another http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/49602-hill-stream-paludarium.html also I saw one a guy was mixing 2 types of frogs and an atb in a tank at his bar


My opinion is you're being very specific about the advice you choose to accept. Yes, most people on here accept that given adequate space and experience with all the species in a tank, and a TON of time and effort spent on building the tank you might just be able to get away with a mixed tank. I think I recall a post (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) that Ed is working wth a mixed tank at the zoo that he works at. But, if you read Ed's other posts you see a wealth of knowledge. I've seen posts in the mixng threads where people with ten or fifteen years more experience than I have say "Yeah, with adequate experience you could probably build a mixed tank, but I don't have that kind of experience yet." You've worked with darts a few years? What? Three years? Four? I'm sorry, but you don't have the experience with darts that you need to have. I question your experience with the geckos and other critters you plan on putting in the tank as well.

So yes, if you choose to pick the one phrase out of the two posts in an entire thread that say "with adequate experience and space mixing is possible" and disregard all of the qualifiers in the rest of the post then yes, you can successfully mix species. But if you take those posts at face value instead of seeing what _you_ want to see because _you_ want to do what _you_ want to do, then each thread shows a ton of reasons why mixing should _not_ be attempted (espcially by those who don't have enough experience such that they have to ask for advice on how to set the thing up; IMO, if you were experienced enough to pull this off you would't have to ask any of the questions you're asking).


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

SmackoftheGods said:


> if you were experienced enough to pull this off you would't have to ask any of the questions you're asking


This is my new canned response to mixing threads. Nicely said, Smack.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

vivbulider said:


> Thanks for the answer I'm going to mix I have a few years xp with darts tree frogs geckos in a huge tank and to make it work better I'm asking for mixed tanks that work to improve my tank I feel people are just reading the title there are mixed tanks that work


In other words, "Yes, I'm this months version of that guy".


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

vivbulider said:


> I've read every mixing post 10 times and they all say mixing can work in a big tank and that most people don't have that space here is a successiful mixed tank http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-questions.html and here's another http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/49602-hill-stream-paludarium.html also I saw one a guy was mixing 2 types of frogs and an atb in a tank at his bar


Did you notice the size of those tanks? The first is over 1500 gallons, the second around 450. These are not little off the shelf aquariums from the local pet store.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm not asking any thing about mixing I'm just asking for ideas and yes this tank is not some tank off the shelf i'm building it it's 240g 4'2'4' lwh


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

vivbulider said:


> I'm not asking any thing about mixing I'm just asking for ideas and yes this tank is not some tank off the shelf i'm building it it's 240g 4'2'4' lwh


You're not asking about mixing, you're just asking about ideas for the tank you're building that you want to mix in.... Hrm....


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

SmackoftheGods said:


> You're not asking about mixing, you're just asking about ideas for the tank you're building that you want to mix in.... Hrm....


Yeah... I give up.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

No the ideas are for what to get and how I should set up the tank and the hill stream tank is about 350


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

vivbulider said:


> No the ideas are for what to get and how I should set up the tank and the hill stream tank is about 350


This thread calls for pictures of mixed tanks. The ideas are for what to get, because you're planning on mixing and are hoping someone you can find a picture that will give information about which species you can keep together. You're looking for ideas about "how you should set up the tank" because you're planning on turning your tank into a mixed one and you're hoping people with more experience can show you how to "successfully" do that.

If you were simply looking for a recommendation on a frog you would have asked. If you were looking for recommendations on how to set up your tank, you would have asked. There would be no need to ask for pictures of _mixed tanks_. Why are you looking for pictures of _mixed tanks_ for ideas about "what to get and how you sould set up the tank?" Because you're looking for information about mixing. You can try to justify yourself all you like, but what it all ends up coming back to is you're asking about _mixed tanks_ for ideas on how to keep _mixed species_. You might as well suck it up and admit it. At this point you've dug yourself a deep enough hole there's no way you can convince any of us differently.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Yes Im sort of asking in case 2 types of herps that are known to work well in the same tank did not like the frog ate the gecko and the guy never sead any thing


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

vivbulider said:


> Yes Im sort of asking in case 2 types of herps that are known to work well in the same tank did not like the frog ate the gecko and the guy never sead any thing


The answer I think you're looking for is: niches.

We'll go back to my tenth grade bio class. Niches are areas that cater specifically to a certain animal. If you want to have a mixed tank you have to carefully select animals that won't interfere with each other's niches. That's why mixing tincs or mixing leucs with tincs, etc isn't going to work. They'll invade the other's space and stress each other out.

You need to select species that have very particular niches such that 95%+ of each animals time is spent in an area that all the other species aren't going to go. You have to have so much familiarity with the animals you're working with to know exactly where in your tank to make these niches and how to make them appealing to the animals you're working with such that they prefer not to venture out. Any contact one animal with another in a mixed tank is going to cause stress.

This is why I say you don't currently have what it takes to create a successful mixed tank. If you're hoenstly asking for people's bad and good experiences with mixed species then you have exactly no comprehension of the work and understanding required to pull something like this off. You have to have an _intimate_ understanding of the requirements of your animals. This, IMO, is not something that can be taught, it has to be _learned_ through experience. And if you had any idea about how to do this or even half the knowledge you need to accomplish your goal you wouldn't be on this board asking for suggestions.

Your few years with darts doesn't come close to what you need. Keep your darts in single-species vivs.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

If the herp stayed in it's own micro niches I would be able to put a full grown Giant day gecko with a dart as long as each had it's own micro niche but they don't spend 100% of the time in that niche so they will come into contact some time yes micro niches help but it won't stop a gecko from eating a frog also I will have micro niches that's why the tank is so tall


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't know that I've ever seen my imitators touch the ground. 95% of the time they're half way or higher in my viv. I don't think I've ever seen my tincs reach the canopy of any viv I've had them in and 95% of the time I'd say they're in the lower half. That's not to say I would mix them, it's just to say that your attempt to find different species that are compatible with one another is foolish, especially when there are obviously herps that utilize vivariums differently. You just don't want to put that kind of effort into it. You want your mixed viv and you don't want to put the real work into it that it would require.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

vivbulider said:


> If the herp stayed in it's own micro niches I would be able to put a full grown Giant day gecko with a dart as long as each had it's own micro niche but they don't spend 100% of the time in that niche so they will come into contact some time yes micro niches help but it won't stop a gecko from eating a frog also I will have micro niches that's why the tank is so tall


If you ignore the problem that can result from mixing pathogens from various parts of the world. These choices indicate to me that you really didn't read through the multispecies thread and/or chose to ignore those complications (and these are significant risks as the results of housing disparate species from different parts of the world is now known to cause loss of species in the wild (like native tortoises of the Genus Gopherus as well as box turtles (for two examples)). 

In addition, if you had read through the multispecies tank I linked you to, you would see that a large tank does not automatically imply niches that are optimal for a specific species nor does it mean that a larger tank supplies more space. Keep in mind that the volume of a tank cubes as it gets larger and that means more empty air space volume and less surfaces for the frogs to inhabit.... 

As a ZooKeeper I've been working with multispecies enclosures for a long time (close to 18 years nowaz( and I had almost 15 years expiemce before that)) and it isn't as easy as looking at pictures and making what you think are appropriate niches for a species. One has to really understand the behavioral and physiological biology of a species to be able to meet its needs in an appropriate fashion. Failure to do so results in problems in the long run. 
For a multispecies enclosure to be considered working it should have to meet the following criteria
1) all species are behaving as they would in an appropriate singe species enclosure
2) for those species housed in pairs or breeding groups, reproduction occurs along with appropriate breeding behavior (ex parental rearing tadpole transport)
3)animals live until at least the median life span and ideally approach or exceed the maximal lifespan. 

Ed


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

ok i wont mix


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Ok, I rarely post here as there just isn't usually anything extra I can contribute as there are many experienced keepers on here doing a good job of disseminating information. But...mixed species exhibits is something I am very experienced with and opinionated on. I will post what I posted on Energy's thread and add to that as well:

I've been a Senior Herpetology Keeper the past seven years for a zoo and done consulting work at quite a few zoos and museums as well. Currently I am a science teacher and only work at zoos/museums in the summer and on vacations. If you've ever been to a zoo or museum and saw the exhibits: "Lizards and Snakes: Alive!", "Frogs: A Chorus of Colors", "Geckos: From Tails to Toepads", and "Reptiles: The Beautiful and the Deadly" I work for the company that built and maintains all of those exhibits. I'm not just saying this to brag (well maybe a little) but just to hopefully add weight to my comments.

On mixed species exhibits and keeping several species of dart frog together: my opinions and experiences are very much in contention with the general opinion of the public that keeps darts. I would submit though (before everyone jumps down my throat) that my experiences are both professional as well as personal and extend over many years with many different species and exhibits. I have kept many different species of dart frogs together for years with success. As long as the enclosure is big enough, stratified properly, and there is an abundance of food there is no harm in doing so! If people are concerned about crossing different localities...this is done all the time in captive animals as well as plants and no one seems to be concerned about that but with darts everyone is up in arms. As long as true localities are maintained and these "hybrids" are not released into the wild there is no environmental impact. 

Look at any herp department of a decent zoo or live animal museum: they ALL have several exhibits with more than one species of herp in them. Also, believe me when I say that you will continue to see more of this in zoos, it is a practice that has been proven to work and creates a much more dynamic experience. Is it for beginners? Absolutely not! Can it be done by a thoughtful, experienced, and dedicated keeper? Absolutely! I understand why many of you are discouraging "newbies" from keeping mixed species exhibits but please do not say that it is "bad" or "wrong" or "irresponsible". Like any challenge it requires much thought and preparation. But again, to those of us that like challenges that is the point and the payoff!

So anyway...to answer the orginal purpose of this thread. Here is my old 55 gallon which I built and stocked myself. 














































It contained 2.3 'solid orange' galactonotus, 1.1 gold dust day geckos, 1.1 cat geckos, and a dwarf species of freshwater puffer fish in the aquatic section. My darts, cat geckos, and day geckos ALL reproduced in this enclosure multiple times. Anyone that know darts can tell you that 'solid orange' galactonotus are one of the rarest and most difficult dart frogs to breed in captivity. Also, all animals were CBB and quarantined before mixing them to prevent the spread of any contagions. As this is a topic that I enjoy, I will subscribe and be happy to answer any questions and respond to any comments. Cheers!

Frank


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

frankpayne32 said:


> Is it for beginners? Absolutely not!
> 
> Frank


This is the whole point, Frank. It generally seems to be the newer people in the hobby that want to try mixing.

I've read several threads about mixing but rarely post.

It actually drives me crazy. The people who want to do this and are newer to the hobby seem to be set it their ways, or thoughts. IMO it is detrimental to the animals being kept, because the keeper lacks the experience required to do so.

You and others that do mixed species exhibits succesfully have a vast amount of training and knowledge on the subject. Congrats, btw.

I have yet to see 1 newer poster that wants to mix having the education, experience or knowledge to go ahead and do so. Just my experience. There may be posts I haven't seen.

Imo, if you haven't been keeping darts and reptiles for years just forget about it and think about the welfare of the animals first.

my 2 cents is all


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

frogfreak said:


> This is the whole point, Frank. It generally seems to be the newer people in the hobby that want to try mixing.
> 
> I've read several threads about mixing but rarely post.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I very much agree with what you said.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

frankpayne32 said:


> Thanks, I very much agree with what you said.


Yeah, he beat me to it, but I was going to say something similar. I think the reason so many of us default to "don't do it, it's bad" is because 99.9% of the time, the person asking is a beginner. When you tell them it's not something to be attempted by beginners, they never feel that applies to them (there might be an exception to that, but I can't remember one, and these topics come up almost weekly). I usually say that I have been keeping herps 20 years, 10 years on a larger scale and though I know it can be done, I personally don't feel quialified to mix. All they EVER hear out of that is "it can be done". 

I agree with you as far as crossing localities...to a degree. You are right that as long as they stay in that collection, but that's not typically the reality of the situation. Typically (and I know there are exceptions) the kind of person that disregards the consensus on beginners mixing, is the same kind of person that disregards the consensus frog hobbyists have on hybrids. IF he stays in the hobby any amount of time he will pass on froglets. Even if he is honest about their lineage, it's very very tempting for the next store/seller to misrepresent the animal as a different locality and triple the price. 

Basically, the reason so many of us say "don't mix anything" is because the people asking have nowhere near the experience you do, nowhere near the dedication to the hobby you clearly have, have not yet shown a dedication to the preservation of the animal that you clearly have, and don't know any of the animals intimately enough to know whether it was showing signs of stress or not. 

You have probably seen people get their first aquarium, then pack it with "one of each" until fish start dropping. It's (usually) the same mentality.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Boondoggle said:


> Yeah, he beat me to it, but I was going to say something similar. I think the reason so many of us default to "don't do it, it's bad" is because 99.9% of the time, the person asking is a beginner. When you tell them it's not something to be attempted by beginners, they never feel that applies to them (there might be an exception to that, but I can't remember one, and these topics come up almost weekly). I usually say that I have been keeping herps 20 years, 10 years on a larger scale and though I know it can be done, I personally don't feel quialified to mix. All they EVER hear out of that is "it can be done".
> 
> I agree with you as far as crossing localities...to a degree. You are right that as long as they stay in that collection, but that's not typically the reality of the situation. Typically (and I know there are exceptions) the kind of person that disregards the consensus on beginners mixing, is the same kind of person that disregards the consensus frog hobbyists have on hybrids. IF he stays in the hobby any amount of time he will pass on froglets. Even if he is honest about their lineage, it's very very tempting for the next store/seller to misrepresent the animal as a different locality and triple the price.
> 
> ...


Well said, and I hope it didn't come across as combative. Just trying to present my perspective on things .


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## bronz (Jul 29, 2008)

Consensus is a great word. I've been lurking on this site for over two years now (and posting now and again) since I first got interested in darts as a hobby and Boondoggle hits the nail right on the head. People that come here with the idea that they will mix already firmly in their head only want to pick out the wheaty bits that say they can mix from the large collection of what seems to them like chaff, ie. the experienced folk explaining why they shouldn't.

It's easy to read a few books and spend some time here and think you can keep darts in a nice planted viv without a second thought, when you actually get some and look after them for a while you realise the true amount of research and effort it takes and how easy it can be to make a simple mistake and go very wrong, even with what seems like plenty of planning. That's why it's so important to really put the time in before expanding your horizons but also why it's easy to assume you've done enough work before you start.

There's a consensus in the hobby that becomes pretty apparent with a little reading that mixing is not for people without serious experience and that hybrids, even amongst the colour variations of a species, are taboo. Whether or not you agree with either is fairly irrelevant when posting about it online because you'll pretty much get the same response regardless, on the other hand it's great to see the likes of Frank putting forward a slightly different viewpoint (with context) and not getting thrown out of town.

Full marks to vivbulider for actually taking the advice in and changing his mind, I think that's the first time I've ever seen that happen!


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

bronz said:


> Consensus is a great word. I've been lurking on this site for over two years now (and posting now and again) since I first got interested in darts as a hobby and Boondoggle hits the nail right on the head. People that come here with the idea that they will mix already firmly in their head only want to pick out the wheaty bits that say they can mix from the large collection of what seems to them like chaff, ie. the experienced folk explaining why they shouldn't.
> 
> It's easy to read a few books and spend some time here and think you can keep darts in a nice planted viv without a second thought, when you actually get some and look after them for a while you realise the true amount of research and effort it takes and how easy it can be to make a simple mistake and go very wrong, even with what seems like plenty of planning. That's why it's so important to really put the time in before expanding your horizons but also why it's easy to assume you've done enough work before you start.
> 
> ...


I would have to disagree about your consensus argument. Just because there is a consensus on something doesn't make it correct. Here's a related example: true chameleons should not be kept in glass enclosures but should be kept in all screen enclosures. I'm sure most on here have hear that before. It is completely untrue! Ask any European chameleon keeper. If anyone cares I could go into detail about this too... No need to clutter things up if noone is interested. Anyway, the whole hybrid thing really kind of bugs me. Why is it OK to hybridize ornamental plants (ex. orchids) but not frogs? To me there is no real difference.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

frankpayne32 said:


> ..If people are concerned about crossing different localities...this is done all the time in captive animals as well as plants and no one seems to be concerned about that but with darts everyone is up in arms. As long as true localities are maintained and these "hybrids" are not released into the wild there is no environmental impact...


You are right that they will never be released into the wild but the problem is that the hybrids WILL be released into the hobby and they will NEVER be tracked no matter how hard everyone tries. Example: So I get a male azureus to breed with my female, and they start throwing off these yellow goofy looking frogs, come to find out the male azureus was actually a cross with leucomelas but didn't take on any of the traits to make it look different. The more Hybrids become acceptable, the harder it will be to know that the blue frog you just bought is actually an azureus.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Why mix species? If you can afford these frogs and afford to feed them then why cant you afford a second tank? As for mixing species in general how is it benificial to them? I see nothing but a chance to spread infection/contaminate each other with god knows what and chance creating a hybrid dart frog or colubrid or anything for that matter. How can ''accidentally'' creating a hybrid be good for anyone? And for saying mixing should be left for the experienced, Do any of you experienced froggers really want your name attached to the hybrid creators list? I can tell you that even the true accidents in this hobby have no reason for happening and for that matter why allow the eggs to make it all the way to froglets? I would think that no eggs esspecially the ones of frogs that were accidentally mixed would be looked at as a financial loss if you destroyed them because if they are than in my opinion it wasn't an accident.. So why even go that far? It will only be sold off to the highest offer and eventually land into the hands of some poor idiot that thinks he/she has a new species. Dont you ever get tired of seeing ''Can you help me Id my new frogs?'' I wish I new who was selling all of these frogs because I would surely make you the next hot topic of discussion and Id be willing to bet that the next beginner that bought a frog from you would leave knowing the true id or they would leave without the frog. Im not even sure how to go about buying a frog without knowing the id of it. Its ussually sitting right above the pic and price of said frog.
My two cents on this whole subject.


> Dont Be A Hybridiot


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Going off what frogfreak said, I'd actually limit mixed enclosures to people with serious experience with darts. Not herps, herps is a general term and each needs different care. Darts seem particularly territorial and much more easily stressed than many of the other herps I've worked with in the past. If you come from a bearded dragon background (say 15 years even?) but have little or no experience with darts that still doesn't qualify you to mix darts.

I'm going to go back to something I said earlier on the board (I think it was even in this thread): if you have to ask the question, you don't have the experience to keep a mixed tank. Working with individual species is going to answer many of the questions about how to adequately set up niches for specific species, what to look for in aggression, how to set up your tank to cater to both species. That's why any "how do I mix" threads come from people with limited experience. 



frankpayne32 said:


> Why is it OK to hybridize ornamental plants (ex. orchids) but not frogs? To me there is no real difference.


I think it comes down to different ideologies. People in the ball python hobby or the leopard gecko hobby are completely comfortably hybridizing and trying to find through artificial selection the coolest colors. It seems that a vast majority of froggers hold themselves to a higher standard than this. We appreciate what nature has done in providing us with such a massive amount of natural variation in our frogs and we want our collections to most closely represent those frogs that you would see in nature. There's been so much hybridizing between leopard geckos and ball pythons that this would be quite impossible in those hobbies (with, perhaps, a few exceptions), but it seems that froggers prefer not to let our hobby turn into the ball python hobby.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

rmelancon said:


> You are right that they will never be released into the wild but the problem is that the hybrids WILL be released into the hobby and they will NEVER be tracked no matter how hard everyone tries. Example: So I get a male azureus to breed with my female, and they start throwing off these yellow goofy looking frogs, come to find out the male azureus was actually a cross with leucomelas but didn't take on any of the traits to make it look different. The more Hybrids become acceptable, the harder it will be to know that the blue frog you just bought is actually an azureus.


And this is why you buy pedigreed animals if that is what you desire. Unless this is what you specifically desire (ie. to own a pedigreed "pure bred" animal") it still does not do harm. Evolutionary speaking nothing is "pure bred" and everything is a "hybrid". This is how new species are formed in the wild and how new breeds and varieties are created via artificial selection. Why is it OK to create french poodles out of wolves but not a leucomelas x auratus hybrid? Again, just because I am disagreeing please do not take my comments as mean spirited. It's hard to read mood and tone in computer text but I assure you this is just meant as goodhearted discussion.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

frankpayne32 said:


> And this is why you buy pedigreed animals if that is what you desire. Unless this is what you specifically desire (ie. to own a pedigreed "pure bred" animal") it still does not do harm. Evolutionary speaking nothing is "pure bred" and everything is a "hybrid". This is how new species are formed in the wild and how new breeds and varieties are created via artificial selection.


A large majority of the hobby does want "pedigreed animals" (if that's the term you want to use for it...). A large number of people actually ask for lineages for their frogs, I personally ask three or four times that my seller is certain that the frog they're selling me is the frog they claim they're selling me. Dart froggers tend to be so picky about their frogs that assuming hybrids _are_ created that person is liable to claim the frog is something that it isn't just because it _looks_ pure-bred (because so many people simply do _not_ want frogs from mixed localities this may be the only way for the seller to get rid of/sell that frog). Obviously this would lead to quite a bit of confusion, confusion many of us want to avoid.

While you're right that mixing different breeds is what gives us new breeds through artificial selection, evoluionarily speaking new species are typically not formed by interbreeding between two species.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

poison beauties said:


> Why mix species? If you can afford these frogs and afford to feed them then why cant you afford a second tank? As for mixing species in general how is it benificial to them? I see nothing but a chance to spread infection/contaminate each other with god knows what and chance creating a hybrid dart frog or colubrid or anything for that matter. How can ''accidentally'' creating a hybrid be good for anyone? And for saying mixing should be left for the experienced, Do any of you experienced froggers really want your name attached to the hybrid creators list? I can tell you that even the true accidents in this hobby have no reason for happening and for that matter why allow the eggs to make it all the way to froglets? I would think that no eggs esspecially the ones of frogs that were accidentally mixed would be looked at as a financial loss if you destroyed them because if they are than in my opinion it wasn't an accident.. So why even go that far? It will only be sold off to the highest offer and eventually land into the hands of some poor idiot that thinks he/she has a new species. Dont you ever get tired of seeing ''Can you help me Id my new frogs?'' I wish I new who was selling all of these frogs because I would surely make you the next hot topic of discussion and Id be willing to bet that the next beginner that bought a frog from you would leave knowing the true id or they would leave without the frog. Im not even sure how to go about buying a frog without knowing the id of it. Its ussually sitting right above the pic and price of said frog.
> My two cents on this whole subject.


I really do not appreciate being called an idiot. Especially by someone that spells "knew" as "new", "usually" as "ussually", and "especially" as "esspecially". There is no need for name calling. When you ask the question "how is it benificial to them?" (again, "benificial" is actually "beneficial") don't kid yourself. We are not keeping these animals for their benefit it is for our own.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

frankpayne32 said:


> And this is why you buy pedigreed animals if that is what you desire. Unless this is what you specifically desire (ie. to own a pedigreed "pure bred" animal") it still does not do harm. Evolutionary speaking nothing is "pure bred" and everything is a "hybrid". This is how new species are formed in the wild and how new breeds and varieties are created via artificial selection. Why is it OK to create french poodles out of wolves but not a leucomelas x auratus hybrid? Again, just because I am disagreeing please do not take my comments as mean spirited. It's hard to read mood and tone in computer text but I assure you this is just meant as goodhearted discussion.


Likewise on mood, nothing mean spirited meant. In order to have pedigreed animals you have to have a way to track animals and you have to have "buy in" from a large number of hobbyists. It works for dogs and cats by sheer volume. I don't think it will work for darts because of the lack of dedicated hobbyists and the low numbers by comparison. This is not saying anything against the efforts that are out there, hell I developed FrogTracks, but the buy in is just not there.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frankpayne32 said:


> And this is why you buy pedigreed animals if that is what you desire. Unless this is what you specifically desire (ie. to own a pedigreed "pure bred" animal") it still does not do harm. Evolutionary speaking nothing is "pure bred" and everything is a "hybrid". This is how new species are formed in the wild and how new breeds and varieties are created via artificial selection. Why is it OK to create french poodles out of wolves but not a leucomelas x auratus hybrid? Again, just because I am disagreeing please do not take my comments as mean spirited. It's hard to read mood and tone in computer text but I assure you this is just meant as goodhearted discussion.



Here we go again... Actually hybridization is not one of the primary methods of speciation in vertebrates (while it has occured in some animals like edible frogs and some parthenogenic whiptails it is not a primary method and many "hybrids" that were once considered species are no longer considered species (like the ambystoma parthenogenic populations.).... I would be interested in seeing the research to support that argument.. 

As for the problems with hybrids and even outcrossing between morphs is that unless really tracks what they are doing, there is a much greater risk of harm to the captive population (for the research behind this I suggest starting with http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands 2007.pdf ) There is a problem with a risk that can significant problems and/or failure of populations without showing any prior signs up to three generations after the initial event.... 

Under the really old job description at my employer, I've been a "senior keeper" full time for more than 18 years.... and while I do utilize multispecies enclosures, I also try to keep up with the problems that can result when dealing with mixing species from diverse geographic regions. Utilizing the argument that the animals were quarantined or won't be released does not mitigate the risk of impact through the adaptation of novel diseases to that population as they can be readily disseminated through waste water and/or waste materials..... or even insect vectors (see for example Experimental infection of crickets (Gryllus bimaculatus) with an invertebrate iridovirus isolated from a high-casqued chameleon (Chamaeleo hoehnelii) -- Weinmann et al. 19 (6): 674 -- Journal of Veterinary Diagnostic Investigation ) 

These considerations should be taken into account by those who consider themselves responsible keepers of the population. Purchase of "pedigree" frogs is only of value then the pedigree can be verified..and the population has been managed for sustainability... otherwise one should consider the risks inherent in purchasing "pedigree dogs".. for example open stud books allow for outcrosses with other breeds... 

I am not against multispecies enclosures and have made that clear starting with my first posts on discussing the issues that should be considered.... 

Ed


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

SmackoftheGods said:


> A large majority of the hobby does want "pedigreed animals" (if that's the term you want to use for it...). A large number of people actually ask for lineages for their frogs, I personally ask three or four times that my seller is certain that the frog they're selling me is the frog they claim they're selling me. Dart froggers tend to be so picky about their frogs that assuming hybrids _are_ created that person is liable to claim the frog is something that it isn't just because it _looks_ pure-bred (because so many people simply do _not_ want frogs from mixed localities this may be the only way for the seller to get rid of/sell that frog). Obviously this would lead to quite a bit of confusion, confusion many of us want to avoid.
> 
> While you're right that mixing different breeds is what gives us new breeds through artificial selection, evoluionarily speaking new species are typically not formed by interbreeding between two species.


Don't be so sure "species" is still a relative term. This does in fact happen frequently.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

frankpayne32 said:


> Don't be so sure "species" is still a relative term. This does in fact happen frequently.


I didn't say it didn't happen (hense my use of the word "typically"). Ed to my rescue


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frankpayne32 said:


> Don't be so sure "species" is still a relative term. This does in fact happen frequently.


So what percent of speciation occurs through hybridization events as opposed to say for autopolyploidy (such as that occured in say in several Ceratophrys (octoploids for example..)? 
How about compared to isolation events? 

Ed


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Ed said:


> Here we go again... Actually hybridization is not one of the primary methods of speciation in vertebrates (while it has occured in some animals like edible frogs and some parthenogenic whiptails it is not a primary method and many "hybrids" that were once considered species are no longer considered species (like the ambystoma parthenogenic populations.).... I would be interested in seeing the research to support that argument..
> 
> As for the problems with hybrids and even outcrossing between morphs is that unless really tracks what they are doing, there is a much greater risk of harm to the captive population (for the research behind this I suggest starting with http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands 2007.pdf ) There is a problem with a risk that can significant problems and/or failure of populations without showing any prior signs up to three generations after the initial event....
> 
> ...


I don't believe I ever said that hybridization is a primary methods of speciation. I'm not sure where you got that...I also never made a comment saying that it's a good thing to hybridize different species. If people are responsible with hybrids that are created then it does no harm. I never said that it wouldn't do harm if people were irresponsible.

And you are right that disease can be introduced from many different sources (the hoehneli example) that does not mean that quarantine is useless.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Ed said:


> So what percent of speciation occurs through hybridization events as opposed to say for autopolyploidy (such as that occured in say in several Ceratophrys (octoploids for example..)?
> How about compared to isolation events?
> 
> Ed


I fully see what you are trying to do, your tone is quite obvious. Using technical terminology to a person with a BS and MS in Biology doesn't do anything effective. While most people may not understand your terminology I do. When did I say it was large percentage or something along those lines? It does happen. Most of the vertebrate examples I am aware of are in marine fish.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frankpayne32 said:


> . Evolutionary speaking nothing is "pure bred" and everything is a "hybrid". This is how new species are formed in the wild and how new breeds and varieties are created via artificial select





frankpayne32 said:


> don't believe I ever said that hybridization is a primary methods of speciation. I'm not sure where you got that...


See the first post. If "everything is a hybrid" and that is how species are formed... then the progression is that the primary source of species.... 




frankpayne32 said:


> Why is it OK to hybridize ornamental plants (ex. orchids) but not frogs? To me there is no real difference.





frankpayne32 said:


> I also never made a comment saying that it's a good thing to hybridize different species. If people are responsible with hybrids that are created then it does no harm. I never said that it wouldn't do harm if people were irresponsible.


There is a comparision there that hybridization is an improvement to the organism and as such a benefit. This ignores the history of orchids in captivity which due to a loss of the species in a desire for hybrids, which either resulted in a virtual extirpation of some species and for those that could be reimported further imports and for others a loss of genetic diversity.... It is a very different scenario... 

Ed


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

frankpayne32 said:


> And this is why you buy pedigreed animals if that is what you desire. Unless this is what you specifically desire (ie. to own a pedigreed "pure bred" animal") it still does not do harm. Evolutionary speaking nothing is "pure bred" and everything is a "hybrid". This is how new species are formed in the wild and how new breeds and varieties are created via artificial selection. Why is it OK to create french poodles out of wolves but not a leucomelas x auratus hybrid? Again, just because I am disagreeing please do not take my comments as mean spirited. It's hard to read mood and tone in computer text but I assure you this is just meant as goodhearted discussion.


Nope, I don't read you as combative or mean spirited at all, just professional and respectful. I think those are all good questions you ask. I have only been into darts specifically for 5 years or so, so I'm not pretending to speak for the dart community. Also, having spent so many years doing the "snake scene" (where I bred many a designer morph) I think your comparisons are valid. 

All I can say is that the culture in the frog community is a bit different. Maybe it's perceived as a conservation thing based on the frailty of darts in the wild. Maybe the hobby just happens to attract people that don't like irrevocable change. Maybe it's because there are so many beautiful natural variations that hybrids are seen as unnecessary (Ironically, hybrids usually aren't as pretty). Maybe it's because they breed so prolifically and they are relatively inexpensive it wouldn't take long to flood the market with leucs x auratus. Maybe it's because you would have a hard time giving away those same frogs marketed honestly, but scam a fair bit of cash by lying about their locality.

I mean, it's one thing to put a $3000 Piebald Ball Python on the market. Whoever buys that knows what they have and would never sully it by mixing it's genes with something common. Darts are priced (and breed) more like corn snakes, and I think it's almost every hobbyists nightmare that captive darts would become like "corn's" where you don't know what you have. It's just a very different culture. I won't say one is elevated over the other, but for SOME reason the topic of hybridizing brings on a visceral reaction from many a frogger (myself included).

By the way, all hybrid/mixing threads eventually get ugly. It won't be me, and it won't be you, but eventually someone will get vocally...visceral.

Watch for it. 

*EDIT: While I was typing this, things got tense...lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frankpayne32 said:


> I fully see what you are trying to do, your tone is quite obvious. Using technical terminology to a person with a BS and MS in Biology doesn't do anything effective. While most people may not understand your terminology I do. When did I say it was large percentage or something along those lines? It does happen. Most of the vertebrate examples I am aware of are in marine fish.



Frank this is off topic.. and a dodge of the question. I am simply presenting the other side and if it requires technical discussions.. I provide references for people to read.... 

So if your expertise is in marine fish, what is the known percent of speciation through hybridization versus other methods? What is the percent of hybrid species versus other species in which origins were known? You made the statement that all species are hybrids.. are you saying that 100% of marine speciation events are/were due to hybridization events? 

Ed


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Ed said:


> See the first post. If "everything is a hybrid" and that is how species are formed... then the progression is that the primary source of species....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In that post you quoted I was trying to make create a generalized metaphor to make a point which I obviously failed at. Do you not agree that speciation does occur naturally via hybridization of what we call species? Do you not agree that the so called "pure" morphs/varieties of dart frogs that we keep will continue to change over time in nature? That is really all I am trying to get at. I am not trying to say that it is "good" to hybridize captive organisms or that speciation occurs primarily through hybridization. Perhaps I just wasn't clear enough.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Ed said:


> Frank this is off topic.. and a dodge of the question. I am simply presenting the other side and if it requires technical discussions.. I provide references for people to read....
> 
> So if your expertise is in marine fish, what is the known percent of speciation through hybridization versus other methods? What is the percent of hybrid species versus other species in which origins were known? You made the statement that all species are hybrids.. are you saying that 100% of marine speciation events are/were due to hybridization events?
> 
> Ed


Please regard my post just prior to this one as primary to this statement because I answered a later post of your before seeing this one. I inadvertently answered some of this post in that one. I try to sum up what I was attempting to say in that one.

I don't think it is off topic nor a dodge and I don't think I was wrong about what you were trying to do. In all honesty, I am not familiar with those particular examples you specified.

Also, my expertise is not in marine fish, but in herpetology. But I use that term loosely, I do not claim to be an expert. I can not give you percentages, no person can as all speciation events are not known or studied. I only said that it happens not that it was the primary method.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

My penmanship may have left the builbing but if you think that makes my point of view wrong in this situation you are sadly mistaken. Mixed tanks benefit noone and especially not the species within the tanks whether you are a novice or an expert in this hobby. I would love to here more about how a hybrid dart frog situation is a good thing. They are a fad meant to make money and nothing else. Anyone who wishes to create them or purchase them is definantly not looking out for the future of this hobby. 
I never said I was keeping these frogs for their benefit but if you must know if Im able to secure, breed and track multiple bloodlines of a rarer or harder species to care for and pass them on in that way with known lines and no chance of any being hybrids then I feel I have done something to benefit the frogs future in this hobby and the ones I keep as Im beginning to see that my frogs might be a bit better off than some of the others with all of this mixed tank talk. And for that matter do you think anyone with hopes of keeping a good name or reputation in this hobby would even allow the eggs of a hybrid situation to make it to froglets let alone make it known what they did? I think my new word fits just fine. 


> Dont Be A Hybridiot


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Boondoggle said:


> Nope, I don't read you as combative or mean spirited at all, just professional and respectful. I think those are all good questions you ask. I have only been into darts specifically for 5 years or so, so I'm not pretending to speak for the dart community. Also, having spent so many years doing the "snake scene" (where I bred many a designer morph) I think your comparisons are valid.
> 
> All I can say is that the culture in the frog community is a bit different. Maybe it's perceived as a conservation thing based on the frailty of darts in the wild. Maybe the hobby just happens to attract people that don't like irrevocable change. Maybe it's because there are so many beautiful natural variations that hybrids are seen as unnecessary (Ironically, hybrids usually aren't as pretty). Maybe it's because they breed so prolifically and they are relatively inexpensive it wouldn't take long to flood the market with leucs x auratus. Maybe it's because you would have a hard time giving away those same frogs marketed honestly, but scam a fair bit of cash by lying about their locality.
> 
> ...


Oh my were you spot on with everything you just said! That was one of the most insightful posts I have ever read on an open forum. You are quite right about the "culture" simply being different. I really did not think about that and obviously should have taken that into account.


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## wimvanvelzen (Nov 1, 2008)

Just some questions and thoughts (hope you don´t mind):

- mixing species is not to be narrowed down to the risk of getting hybrids; e.g. mixing Dendrobates and Mannophryne, or Hyperolius or even lizards
- when there are specific health threats like Ed mentions, shouldn´t that mean that you cannot keep frogs from different areas in one room and using the same equipment?

- why is it that in Europe the experiences/frog keeping culture are so different? This is really a question, nothing rhetoric here.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frankpayne32 said:


> In that post you quoted I was trying to make create a generalized metaphor to make a point which I obviously failed at. Do you not agree that speciation does occur naturally via hybridization of what we call species? Do you not agree that the so called "pure" morphs/varieties of dart frogs that we keep will continue to change over time in nature? That is really all I am trying to get at. I am not trying to say that it is "good" to hybridize captive organisms or that speciation occurs primarily through hybridization. Perhaps I just wasn't clear enough.


Speciation does occur through hybridization (as I cited species that are considered to have evolved in that manner) but there is a lot of change as to whether or not that is going to be accepted for many of the supposed species that "resulted" due to hybridization... We have seen a lot of supposedly "hybrids" either totally removed as a species or reduced in standing (for example Tremblay's Salamanders...) or Coastal Plains Milksnakes. There is also considerable argument in parthenogenic whiptails as these "species" do not appear to be stable and unless consistently replaced by hybridization events not sustainable as a species. 
However, this does not mean that all species are hybrids, nor is even really a major means of speciation.. this is why I referenced polyploidy as a method as this is also the method for the differences between the two species of grey treefrogs..

I flagged the generalized metaphore as it has been used before by other people on the board, so it to some extent was a red flag. 

With respect to Boondoggle's comment about a expensive ball python.. all I have to say is just wait as my understanding is that some of the really big breeders are working with some other species to establish the inherited pattern in ball pythons with some closely related python species... 

I tend to spend a lot of my time working on nutritional and enviromental aspects of amphibian (and to a lesser extent reptile) husbandry but as I've also worked with a Crested toads, A. zeteki and Wyoming toads for various programs, I try to keep up on the various aspects of captive conservation and management.... 

Ed


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Ed said:


> With respect to Boondoggle's comment about a expensive ball python.. all I have to say is just wait as my understanding is that some of the really big breeders are working with some other species to establish the inherited pattern in ball pythons with some closely related python species...


Yeah, I can imagine. It absolutely AMAZES me when I see the pythons they have tricked into breeding in the last 5-10 years. Especially the Australian X African stuff. Check out this list.

Hybrid Haven.net • View topic - Known Python Hybrid List

I just wish they would leave the Angolans alone. 

Hijack over.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

wimvanvelzen said:


> Just some questions and thoughts (hope you don´t mind):
> 
> - mixing species is not to be narrowed down to the risk of getting hybrids; e.g. mixing Dendrobates and Mannophryne, or Hyperolius or even lizards
> - when there are specific health threats like Ed mentions, shouldn´t that mean that you cannot keep frogs from different areas in one room and using the same equipment?
> ...


If you were working with species that were intended for release then that would be the standard towards which you would work. Even so, I use seperate utensils when accessing enclosures (and disinfect them between usages) and collect and then disinfect all waste water. Materials removed from the enclosure are double bagged and sent to the dump (as this is considered acceptable at this time) and are not put outside nor are they composted (this method of discarding is the standard unless you can autoclave it). 

the hobby there is also viewed and treated differently by other communities (look at the participation in the Journal Salamandra for an example). I can't speak for why they don't have the concerns raised in the literature and from practical experience.. (look at what is happening with box turtles and infections including some mass mortality events in wild populations from released animals).

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I want to ask that you all continue to post in the inevitable weekly 'mixing' thread.

When I first came here, I had no idea that there may be issues regarding mixing frogs. I would not have searched for any posts on 'mixing' because I wouldn't have realized it was even a topic. 

In fact, if I hadn't seen the 'mixing' thread of the day, I might very well have thought it would be fun to have one of those pretty 'orange' frogs and one of those pretty 'blue' frogs, and thought nothing of it.

So even if there are some who are stubborn about their inexperience and the reasons they should not mix, I suspect there are many more who appreciate the info on a subject they might not have considered otherwise.

Just my 2c


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh gawd, did I kill the thread?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

frogface said:


> Oh gawd, did I kill the thread?


Nagh

It's culture night. We call it fly night. Gotta go...


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Im going to drop my two pennies in nox. I have succesfully kept and bred a.callidryas and anoles in seperate tanks for many moons. I decided one day that based on my knowledge and experience i would attempt to mix the two. I set up a fully planted vivarium with a temperature gradient that would suit both species. I added the specific parts that each species would need and let the tank mature. I the carefully selected specemins of compatable sizes that could not eat one another and would eat the same sized food items.
I added the frogs and let them settle fir around 3 months and then during day light hours while the frogs were asleep i added an anolis dischictus. 
Things ran fine for the first few weeks, i even witnessed the anole and frog sitting side by side whilst hunting for food.
Time went on and the frogs even started to go into amplexus, something which under stress would never happen. 
All was going good and i was feeling satisfied by my achievment, yhis is were things got tricky. I started to notice that the frogs were becoming thin whilst the anole was fattening up. I tried to feed in two sepetate sittings, one in the day for the durinal anole and one at night for the nocturnal frogs. This still made no difference as the frogs would wake the anole while hunting and he would snap up the food. I then too no chances and seperared the two species. They are now happy healthy and luckily i lost no animals.

My advice would be that cross species mixing should not be taken lightly, i have alot of ecperience and despute careful planning and picky specamin selection it still eventually failed. As for mixing darts i canot pass comment as i have never tried. I can see reasons fir and against and given the time and space i cannot say i would never be tempted.

My answer to all people that have ever asked the question is thus, if you need to ask you should not be attempting.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Knighty thank you for answering the question how big was your tank


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Knighty said:


> if you need to ask you should not be attempting.


Thanks again Knighty. This point has been made several times and obviously still needs to be repeated many times over. 

-Matt


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Knighty said:


> if you need to ask you should not be attempting.


This is the ponit I've tried to make almost word for word. Thanks for this.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Knighty said:


> My answer to all people that have ever asked the question is thus, if you need to ask you should not be attempting.


Would you suggest the same to someone considering to attempt a single species tank who lacks the experience with keeping the species? 

Shouldn't one of the steps in gaining the knowledge needed to maintain any kind of setup, single or multiple species, be to ask any and as many questions until one feels confident enough to proceed or even to not proceed?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> Would you suggest the same to someone considering to attempt a single species tank who lacks the experience with keeping the species?


No, because a new person and a single species vivarium is a natural progression and how it should be......



Jellyman said:


> Shouldn't one of the steps in gaining the knowledge needed to maintain any kind of setup, single or multiple species, be to ask any and as many questions until one feels confident enough to proceed or even to not proceed?


Gain the EXPERIENCE first. A newbies first acquisition should be a single species vivarium and not a mixed species one.

A new hobbyist with no experience wanting to start off with a mixed species vivarium is like the 17 year old kid in the kar klub wanting to buy a viper and even before turning the key, asking how to add nitrous ect.

Just wrong.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> Would you suggest the same to someone considering to attempt a single species tank who lacks the experience with keeping the species?
> 
> Shouldn't one of the steps in gaining the knowledge needed to maintain any kind of setup, single or multiple species, be to ask any and as many questions until one feels confident enough to proceed or even to not proceed?


No. With no experience with single species vivariums there is a need for questions. With multi species exibits, should you have enough experience with the animals you're planning on working with, all the information to set up a successful multi species vivarium will be at your fingertips. If you need to ask questions like "what do I need in a mixed species vivarium," "what is the best kind of niche for ______," "is it okay to mix ______ and ______," you know, the questions that _every_ mixing thread asks, then you clearly don't have enough experience.


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> Would you suggest the same to someone considering to attempt a single species tank who lacks the experience with keeping the species?
> 
> Shouldn't one of the steps in gaining the knowledge needed to maintain any kind of setup, single or multiple species, be to ask any and as many questions until one feels confident enough to proceed or even to not proceed?


Jellyman, before i answer your question i would just like to clarify my stance on multi species tanks. I am pretty Pro mixing (getting ready for the flames) but i do hold reservations over openly telling people to go for it, or learn as you go attitudes. The main problem that does worry me with mixing is the chance of creating hybrids, although some of the Leuc morphs avaliable have stemed from interbreeding different localitys, i would not condone or congratulate any one that has made a new D.Tincaleucus or a P.Pumilioatus.

so i post this statment now to any one that is contenplating mixing

IF YOU COULD NOT EUTHANISE AN INNOCENT FROG OR DESTROY A CLUTCH OF EGGS. DO NOT GO ANY FURTHER INTO MULTI SPECIES ENCLOSURES.

Now in answer to your question it goes like this. When some one new is entering the hobby they are going to ask begginer questions like temps, humiditys, lighting ect and these are all perfectly acceptable questions that all us fellow hobbyists should all be eager to answer and i would not greet them with my "if you need to ask you shouldnt be attempting" statement.

When a can i mix or would this live with this question comes up i straight away see red lights as no matter how many posts, frogs or experience some one says they have the question alone shows the knowledge to be attempting a multi species enclosure is not there, thus my answer if you need to ask you shouldnt be attempting.

Having questions answered and confidence is not enough, the species that are being housed together need to of been kept and observed seperatly so that the behaviour and tempermant of each individual is noted and im affraid that is just the start. 

My final point i would like to make is that these forums are public and can be browsed by non-members, so putting up statments telling people that they can mix this with that or telling people just to research and if you feel 
confident give it a go could send out a very wrong message and potentially put a keeper into a situation s/he cant deal with and ultimately dead frogs.

Dave


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

SmackoftheGods said:


> No. With no experience with single species vivariums there is a need for questions. With multi species exibits, should you have enough experience with the animals you're planning on working with, all the information to set up a successful multi species vivarium will be at your fingertips. If you need to ask questions like "what do I need in a mixed species vivarium," "what is the best kind of niche for ______," "is it okay to mix ______ and ______," you know, the questions that _every_ mixing thread asks, then you clearly don't have enough experience.


Very well put.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

My point is not limited to the topic that a few are getting hung up on but for any issue that anyone has the desire to try and gain more knowledge about. For example, I want to learn how to fly. I have zero, none, zip experience or knowledge. Why would I not ask what this involves. Wouldn't this basic step get me some idea where to start? Now let's apply this to what everyone is hung up on. I'm new to the hobby and just saw a great display at a zoo with multiple species and I want to give it a try. I find what appears to be a forum dedicated to the hobby, snakes, frogs, turtles, zebras, etc, and ask my questions. I'm hoping for honest and truthful answers to which I can base my next steps or further questions upon. I would think that most would recognize that starting out with a single species is probably the best coarse of action and move in that direction. Then there are those that will simply go ahead and do what they wanted to do in the first place. Misleading or mistreating people is not the answer. 

The experience of someone asking a question, especially when experience is usually unknown and simply assumed, should not be the deciding or limiting factor that determines what is appropriate advice. Almost everyone that barks against mixed tanks actually have NO experience with mixed tanks and themselves are not qualified or experienced enough, according to their own logic, to comment on such a topic. It does however offer the opportunity for them to share their experience with what species they are framiliar with. 

This arguement should not be driven into the heated mixed debate. It is an issue concerning the ability of a person to aquire information they are seeking.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> My point is not limited to the topic that a few are getting hung up on but for any issue that anyone has the desire to try and gain more knowledge about. For example, I want to learn how to fly. I have zero, none, zip experience or knowledge. Why would I not ask what this involves. Wouldn't this basic step get me some idea where to start? Now let's apply this to what everyone is hung up on. I'm new to the hobby and just saw a great display at a zoo with multiple species and I want to give it a try. I find what appears to be a forum dedicated to the hobby, snakes, frogs, turtles, zebras, etc, and ask my questions. I'm hoping for honest and truthful answers to which I can base my next steps or further questions upon. I would think that most would recognize that starting out with a single species is probably the best coarse of action and move in that direction. Then there are those that will simply go ahead and do what they wanted to do in the first place. Misleading or mistreating people is not the answer.
> 
> The experience of someone asking a question, especially when experience is usually unknown and simply assumed, should not be the deciding or limiting factor that determines what is appropriate advice. Almost everyone that barks against mixed tanks actually have NO experience with mixed tanks and themselves are not qualified or experienced enough, according to their own logic, to comment on such a topic. It does however offer the opportunity for them to share their experience with what species they are framiliar with.
> 
> This arguement should not be driven into the heated mixed debate. It is an issue concerning the ability of a person to aquire information they are seeking.


Your analogy to flying is not a good one for mixed tanks. It's good to a single species enclosure. Having little experience with dendrobatids and wanting a mixed tank is like having no experience flying and then going to an airforce base and asking to be trained on how to fly a stealth bomber. Your response is going to be "let's put you in a simulator and then take you out on some of the simpler flying machines first... let's do some baby steps here."

I don't think that anyone here is discouraging asking questions. Go ahead and _ask_ about mixing as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to chastize you for it (I _will_, however, chastize if you get the same responses from a majority of the responders and you remain obstinate in your unwillingness to accept the advice of those who have far more experience than you). I'm happy to list some reasons why it shouldn't be attempted by a beginner, I'm happy to be nice about it, you're new, you don't understand, whatever; but in the end my overall response will remain the same: in this case, if you have to ask the question you're not experienced enough to do it.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Your analogy to flying is not a good one for mixed tanks. It's good to a single species enclosure. Having little experience with dendrobatids and wanting a mixed tank is like having no experience flying and then going to an airforce base and asking to be trained on how to fly a stealth bomber. Your response is going to be "let's put you in a simulator and then take you out on some of the simpler flying machines first... let's do some baby steps here."
> 
> I don't think that anyone here is discouraging asking questions. Go ahead and _ask_ about mixing as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to chastize you for it (I _will_, however, chastize if you get the same responses from a majority of the responders and you remain obstinate in your unwillingness to accept the advice of those who have far more experience than you). I'm happy to list some reasons why it shouldn't be attempted by a beginner, I'm happy to be nice about it, you're new, you don't understand, whatever; but in the end my overall response will remain the same: in this case, if you have to ask the question you're not experienced enough to do it.


This is why we will have to agree to disagree.

A stealth pilot has experience flying a stealth bomber and is therefore qualified to comment based on his experience gained knowledge. Those that seem to be so against mixed tanks have no experience gained knowledge concerning mixed tanks. I do agree that encouraging a beginner not to jump into the deep end is a good idea in any venture but in doing so I do not beleive that they should not ask questions in which they are seeking answers. If someone asked me how to start up a restaurant I would tell them but I would suggest that they try being a waiter or line cook first. 

Again, to me this is not about mixed tanks it is about limiting information because a more "experienced" person has decided a less experienced person cannot handle the information.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> This is why we will have to agree to disagree.
> 
> A stealth pilot has experience flying a stealth bomber and is therefore qualified to comment based on his experience gained knowledge. Those that seem to be so against mixed tanks have no experience gained knowledge concerning mixed tanks. I do agree that encouraging a beginner not to jump into the deep end is a good idea in any venture but in doing so I do not beleive that they should not ask questions in which they are seeking answers. If someone asked me how to start up a restaurant I would tell them but I would suggest that they try being a waiter or line cook first.
> 
> Again, to me this is not about mixed tanks it is about limiting information because a more "experienced" person has decided a less experienced person cannot handle the information.


A stealth pilot does have experience flying a stealth bomber. However, a stealth pilot also has experience flying other (simpler) machines as well.

Knighty claims to be an advocate of mixed tanks, has plenty, but doesn't advocate beginners trying one. We have a few people on DB who work in zoos that work with multi species exibits that don't advocate new people working with mixed tanks. I've met a few people in person who don't frequent DB who have mixed tanks but don't recommend them for beginners. I have this feeling (and that's all it is: a feeling) that for you it's not so much about elitist froggers trying to limit information. Instead it seems like you take it as a personal attack because you've been working with dendrobatids for 10(ish) years now and you began (or came pretty close to beginning) with mixed tanks and are achieving what you believe (but many dispute) is relative success. I don't blame you, I've been guilty of the same thing (although not in the frog hobby); that's what it comes across as.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

SmackoftheGods said:


> A stealth pilot does have experience flying a stealth bomber. However, a stealth pilot also has experience flying other (simpler) machines as well.
> 
> Knighty claims to be an advocate of mixed tanks, has plenty, but doesn't advocate beginners trying one. We have a few people on DB who work in zoos that work with multi species exibits that don't advocate new people working with mixed tanks. I've met a few people in person who don't frequent DB who have mixed tanks but don't recommend them for beginners. I have this feeling (and that's all it is: a feeling) that for you it's not so much about elitist froggers trying to limit information. Instead it seems like you take it as a personal attack because you've been working with dendrobatids for 10(ish) years now and you began (or came pretty close to beginning) with mixed tanks and are achieving what you believe (but many dispute) is relative success. I don't blame you, I've been guilty of the same thing (although not in the frog hobby); that's what it comes across as.


If you reread my posts I think you will see that we are mostly in agreement. I do not advocate that beginners should start the hobby trying to go the mixed setup route. I did as a beginner because at the time there was not alot of places to readily get information. I do consider myself lucky that I was able to achieve a sucessful setup. If I was to start today I would definitely setup several single species groups and then I would progress into a mixed setup after a few years and some solid planning. I guess what gets me worked up are those that comment that it cannot be done or should not be attempted have no experience with a mixed setup. My only disagreement would be limiting the info based on the preconceived notion that I, or anyone else, could know what another person is capable of comprhending. 

The last hurdle of "relative" success was that I had not produced frogs. At the time I had made the decision to not pull and raise eggs but this seemed to decrease the validity of success. I currently have 7 froglets and numerous tads at different stages. Several DB members attended a get together at my house and can attest to the validity of mating within the tank. To date I have only had three crosses and all three had sls and were destroyed. On average I will get about 12-16 eggs a week, give or take. I only pull a few since I am not really setup to care for alot of eggs/tads at the same time.


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

I do in a sense get what you are trying to say, but i feel a better comparison would be of someone wanting to get into snakes and after seeing a cobra at a zoo asking what keeping one would involve. Know dwa lisence aside no registered keeper of dangerous snakes would say go for it, but they may well detail its requirments. In that situation knowledge is being shared but i can assure you that no one is going to pass comments such as "ive kept them, just give it ago".

Mixing species is always going to bring up both sides of the coin, and its normally the anti mixers that have more posts, now weather that is down to the fact of group mentality, less people have tried or that people do not agree on an ethical level i cannot be sure, but i do know that creating a multi species enclosure requires a great deal of experience and more importantly an indepth knowledge of micro niches and patients.

I post on these threds based on my own experiences, yes i have mixed but no it did not work, the important thing there was is that due to a significant number of years experience with both species i quickly saw that some thing was wrong and put an imdiate stop to it before any animal lost its life. I will however be honest and say that in the past i only ever posted that it should not be done and this was more to protect peoples animals than to be an arse, but know i feel it better to share my experiences so that peole can see that although some people do attempt multi species enclosures they do not always work.

As a keeper claiming knowledge and having it is something only the individual can be honest about. Yes multi species enclosures can work, and it is important that the individual is experienced enough to be able to spot proplems and know how to deal with them. I dont feel personally that there is enough good documentation on keeping multi species enclosures avaliable for people to read and understand how to make it succesfully, and to be totaly honest forums are genuinly not the place it will be found. Now weather this is a good or a bad thing im stuck on the fence, if there was woukd every one experienced and new be attempting it? But uf the information was pure and proven would it make it do able?

All i know is that i have tried tree frogs and anoles and it didnt work, but would i consider a multiple dart enclosure? with a little more time and after succesfuly breeding individual species, probably.

Dave


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Knighty claims to be an advocate of mixed tanks, has plenty, but doesn't advocate beginners trying one.


yes in the right conditions i am an advocate of mixed tanks, but i have never claimed to of had plenty. I apologise if any of my posts of led you to believe that.

Dave


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> The last hurdle of "relative" success was that I had not produced frogs. At the time I had made the decision to not pull and raise eggs but this seemed to decrease the validity of success.


What or who's definition of success are you striving for?

Just because they eat and "live".......

Just be cause they live for "several years" ......

Just because they breed and hybridize.......

None of that equates to "success", let alone validation in my book. 

I think you are striving to surmount an argument that you had with Rich F a while ago - and are now trying to equate hybridization with success in this hobby.

I measure success in the hobby by the quality and quantity of information and help that I can provide others. My validation is how well received it is on forums, shows, gatherings and patronage. We used to have the rep system and now we have the "thanks" system. We also have the ability to research the entire body of work one commits here, in an archival fashion, and continue to judge it's value (and it's author) to the hobby.

some thoughts...


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

I think that the level of succes in any amphibian husbandry, mixed or solo, is measured by egg clutches and healthy of spring. This is the same method used by E.grithif and H.ross of the evacc centre. The frogs must be healthy and stress free to breed, and must be getting there share of food.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Knighty, my bad, I misinterpreted....



Jellyman said:


> My only disagreement would be limiting the info based on the preconceived notion that I, or anyone else, could know what another person is capable of comprhending.


For me, I don't presume enough to make judgements about what another person can comprehend. However, comprehension and actually putting that understanding to work are two totally different things. We see beginners come through the boards on a pretty regular basis. We help them in putting together their single species enclosures, we explain what to try and recreate in a vivarium that is most beneficial to the frogs. Most of the beginners, I think, if I were to ask them to give me an in-depth analysis of what they were trying to piece together, could explain to me rather well how they were going to set up their vivs (in accordance with all generally accepted dendrobatid guidelines). But... most first single-species vivs end up coming out rather barren anyway. We tell them what to look for in aggression and they can give us dictionary definitions (perhaps even _understand_ dictionary definitions) of what to look for, but having that information and applying that information to what they're actually _seeing_ is rather different. So, when a mixing thread is posted we want to give them all the information they need for a mixed setup? It's hard enough to set up a single niche for a single species and look for same species aggression, we want to encourage beginners to magnify the already daunting task by throwing in multiple niches and species on species aggression (along with all the other fantastic things to look for when mixing species)? Especially when, if you go back and read most of the mixing threads that have been posted in the past, the original posters are usually very selective about the information they choose to hear (they don't want to hear "this shouldn't be attempted by those without experience," so all they hear is "it _can_ be done;" there are examples of this all over the board).

I don't have a _lot_ of experience mixing species. What I _do_ have a LOT of experience with is listening to hard-headed newbies who refuse to listen to the voices of experienced froggers (more experienced than I am) because another frogger (usually someone with only a few months more experience than they have) has told them what they want to hear. The conversation almost always goes the same way and the experiment usually ends in tragedy.

Perhaps that makes me sound like an elitist trying to only give out information I think new people can handle. For me it really is the genuine belief that if you have the experience necessary for what you're asking about you really _don't_ need to ask the questions.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Knighty said:


> I think that the level of succes in any amphibian husbandry, mixed or solo, is measured by egg clutches and healthy of spring. This is the same method used by E.grithif and H.ross of the evacc centre. The frogs must be healthy and stress free to breed, and must be getting there share of food.


 
This is a common misconception. It is well known that across taxa and genera that animals that show symptoms of stress readily reproduce in captivity. Some of the most classic examples are big cats that show sterotypical behaviors. 
It all depends on whether the level of stress is consistent or is variable. If it is consistent, then the animals adapts (or dies) and then the levels of stress hormones decrease (normally at least 2 weeks after first exposure). If the stressors are significant and are variable then problems can result from the stressors which can run the gamut from reproductive disruption to death ( also known as maladaption syndrome..). 

It is also well known in several other taxa that reproduction is much more likely if the animals are severely stressed... 

Ed


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Knighty, my bad, I misinterpreted....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am in complete agreement with what you posted. Unfortunately some people do only listen for what they want to hear so they can feel good about going forward. That is unfortunate. I am guilty of telling someone once just to go ahead and do it. I did so out of frustartion of all the negativity. Since I have been a strong apponent of trying to lead new comers down the path of single species enclosures before they jump into trying a mixed setup. However, If someone asks me for advice I do share what I haved learned.

The only comment that stands out: " if you have the experience necessary for what you're asking about you really _don't_ need to ask the questions." I find it hard to say that anyone can posess the proper experience and knowledge to do something they have never done before without asking questions and then doing more follow up research. 

I just wanted to say 10 thumbs up to smackofthegods for being civil and keeping this as a discussion. Thanks


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> What or who's definition of success are you striving for?
> 
> Just because they eat and "live".......
> 
> ...


Hybridization is irrelevant to me and had nothing to do with my decision or the success of the setup. I was simply posed with the question as to why I had not produced frogs. For many years I chose not to assist the process by pulling eggs and my setup was to small and lacked the space needed for eggs to develop on their own. Once I moved to the larger setup I decided it would be fun to pull eggs and see what happened. I'm only able to get eggs out of a large brom right now because all the other egg laying sites are too hard to access without ripping up sections of the enclosure. I thought it would be interesting to see exactly what would be produced. Surprisingly enough, out of over 100 eggs I have only had 5 total hybrids. For alot of the tads they did develope with sls. It was not until I stopped using my RO/DI water that I use with my fish tanks that I was able to correct the problem. Since switching over to straight tap water the sls problem has all but stopped. Interestingly enough the best breeders have been the auratus. I had assumed the tincs would be since they are typically known to be the more aggressive species. I guess this could also be attributed to whatever the male/female ratio is of each species. Other then my calling leucs I cannot sex the frogs visually. Fortunately for me the hobby as a whole does judge one's success on longevity, health, and the ability to produce healthy viable offspring. I do not in anyway consider myself a dart frog breeder. I am a hobbiest who has dabbled with raising eggs to tads and tads to froglets. I've kept a few of my offspring and have had no problem finding homes for the rest. It's fun for my children and I and as long as it remains fun I will continue to enjoy the hobby as I see fit.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> I am guilty of telling someone once just to go ahead and do it. I did so out of frustartion of all the negativity.


I've actually done the same thing. I believe the quote was something to the extent of "Look, if you're not going to listen to me then do whatever the hell you want, but don't expect me to assist you in your attempt to kill your frogs."

And, for the record, I like to think that I have no issue being civil until I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall or someone initiates the uncivility... then I'm a beast


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