# strange pumilio problem



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Has anyone seen this... I went to feed my frogs and found my blue jean on its back, opening its mouth ever 20 sec. I flipped him the right side up and it seemed like it was almost paralyzed, it was also noticeably cold.

I sprayed him with warm water and his whole body started twitching. The tank is about 75'F. I put him on a leaf and let him be, expecting to see a dead frog when I come back from work. When I came back he seemed normal.

His diet is springtails and dusted FF. Any clues?


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

This reminds me of CO2 "poisioning". I don't recall the exact symptoms off hand, but I remember reading of someone doing an experiment on it. It would have been a few years ago and probably on frognet. 

It's never a good idea to directly spray a frog. More than a few times I've heard of this resulting in a dead frog.


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Couldn't be CO2, tanks are vented, tons of plants inside and I wasn't doing the dry ice treatment 

Spraying was very gentle, the frog was already behaving strangely. This wasnt' induced by spraying. I used spraying just to see if it would react..didn't want to poke it with my heavy fingers

btw, death by spraying seems a bit far fetched to me, if that was the case frogs would die during rain 

I couldn't find that pum this morning, hopefully it's just hiding, I'll check tonight


----------



## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

^ directly spraying a seriosly stressed frog can just be the final push that causes it to stroke out. it does happen, i've had it happen. of course a healthy frog in the rain is not going to react the same as a sick frog that is near death.


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

NCSUdart said:


> ^ directly spraying a seriosly stressed frog can just be the final push that causes it to stroke out. it does happen, i've had it happen. of course a healthy frog in the rain is not going to react the same as a sick frog that is near death.


OK, I could see it as a source of additional stress when it's near death or already on a downward spiral... I'd be inclined to say that if spraying your frog will push her over the edge, most likely she won't make it either way.

Of course me picking it up I'm sure didn't reduce the amount of stress either.


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2007)

How about your calcium source? How old is it?


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

It's still good. I picked it up at IAD


----------



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I have had this problem with one of my cb adult male bluejeans. To date I have been dripping calcium gluconate when I see him looking "odd" (twitching, etc) and the problem seems to go away. Whether or not the calcium gluconate drip has had any effect or not is debateable, could be pure coincidence, but it isn't dead yet, so I'll keep doing it.


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> I have had this problem with one of my cb adult male bluejeans. To date I have been dripping calcium gluconate when I see him looking "odd" (twitching, etc) and the problem seems to go away. Whether or not the calcium gluconate drip has had any effect or not is debateable, could be pure coincidence, but it isn't dead yet, so I'll keep doing it.


What's the intended use for calcium gluconate?


----------



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

They use it for treating cattle. Not sure what it treats though.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

insufficient levels of calcium can interefere with with how the muscles work resulting in tremors and seizures. Depending on the degree of calcium deficiency, this can occur with mild activity/stress or higher levels of activity/stress. 
The calcium gluconate is to increase the levels of calcium in the frog. Baths of calcium gluconate is one part of the treatment used to treat some of the forms of MBD. 

Ed


----------



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

I just had this happen to a juvi pumilio of mine. He died yesterday.


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Mine is still kicking. I saw it today sitting on a leaf. I mixed some ST with vits and threw them near it. He snatched a few, which is very encouraging. Few min later he dissapeared somewhere


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Pumilio seem more susceptible to calcium deficiency than other frogs so I would lean in that direction. Calcium gluconate is used to treat milk fever (I believe is what they call it) in lactating cattle. In other words, calcium deficiency. It is readily absorbed through the skin of frogs and is an easy treatment to get them back on their feet. You want to dilute it 10:1 from what comes in the bottle if I remember correctly.

How are your tanks vented? The reason I ask is because CO2 is heavier than air and can accumulate in low spots in a viv if there is no air movement even with plants present. Also, plants only absorb CO2 when it is light. When it is dark, they respire just like the rest of us. Symptoms of CO2 poisoning are stiffening with legs splayed out and gaping mouth.

Of the two, I would go with the calcium being the issue just because it is seen so often with pumilio. I haven't had to treat a pumilio for many years since providing UVB light but in the past they have always responded quickly to a calcium gluconate treatment. I always used a 15 minute soak with the diluted solution. Afterward, I made sure they got plain calcium dust twice a week and a good D3 supplement once a week.


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

OK, where do I get Calcium gluconate?

tanks are vented at the bottom, here's the tank










It's the 'bottom - middle' tank in this setup


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Do you guys use calcium WITH d3?


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Marty,

Here is where I bought mine:
http://www.qcsupply.com/Products/2777.aspx

I have also recently had this happen with my male man creek, and it seems to happen when I am around. Is it possible it is a defense mechanism? Like playing possum? The other thought I had was heat related. My room runs a bit cooler this time of year and I have thought about adding an extra light to my pumilio tanks to help heat them up a bit.


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Thanks Kyle. Yes the heat has crossed my mind. I know pums like it a bit warmer. Few days ago I replaced the CF from 35W to 55W and turned off the waterfall. The water always runs a bit cooler and I wanted to avoid any cooling splashes. I'm going to put my data logger into that tank just to see how the temps are.


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

The reason you tend to see this when you are present or due to stress is because the calcium is needed for proper muscle function. Stress causes a large muscle response which suddenly uses up the little bit of calcium available and causes muscle spasms. Think of it like an electric motor short circuiting under load.

Any vet should be able to provide calcium gluconate and possibly farm and ranch supply places as well. The stuff is pretty cheap.

After seeing the photo of the viv, I agree with Marty that CO2 can be ruled out.

Aaron's question about calcium and D3 is important. Ed can provide the poop on how these two things interact when in a single bottle. I prefer to use a multi-vitamin dust without calcium and supplement with just plain calcium on alternate feedings. Ed can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe straight calcium powder goes bad.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

straight calcium carbonate should not go bad and should be safe for use (unless you do some exotic things to it like heating it until it turns into calcium oxide, that could be a little rough on the frogs as well as the fruit flies if used as a dust..) 

Calcium and only D3 is (according to the literature) more stable than a complete multisupplement because the fat soulable vitamins increase their oxidation rates when mixed however D3 is also susceptiable to oxidation over time (and at an increased rate when exposed to excess moisture and/or heat. 

I have serious doubts that you are seeing death feigning... 

Ed


----------



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

bbrock said:


> Any vet should be able to provide calcium gluconate and possibly farm and ranch supply places as well. The stuff is pretty cheap.
> 
> After seeing the photo of the viv, I agree with Marty that CO2 can be ruled out.
> 
> .


A friend also recomended I get some of this after hearing about my problem. Do you know what its shelf life is? I also hope a vet will be able to give me some without going in there with a frog. Because that is not going to happen.


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I got some at the local Tractor Supply Company. I paid 3 bucks for about 500ml. In the General Health & Disease Treatment section there are a few threads on it where people post where they got it online.


----------



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

defaced said:


> I got some at the local Tractor Supply Company. I paid 3 bucks for about 500ml. In the General Health & Disease Treatment section there are a few threads on it where people post where they got it online.


i want to see where i can get it local also.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2007)

kyle1745 said:


> Marty,
> 
> Here is where I bought mine:
> http://www.qcsupply.com/Products/2777.aspx
> ...


Wow, that is cheap. Whats the shelf life of this stuff. WOuld it be wise to keep some as a part of a froggy first aid kit?


----------



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Khamul1of9 said:


> kyle1745 said:
> 
> 
> > Marty,
> ...



If you have pumilio I would say yes.


----------



## tyler (Feb 23, 2006)

I just put up a topic about this and I'm going to try the calcium gluconate method... wierd that it happens to all at once.


----------



## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Khamul1of9 said:


> Whats the shelf life of this stuff. WOuld it be wise to keep some as a part of a froggy first aid kit?


If the bottle is sealed - the shelf life is generally a couple of years. However - once you open the bottle, the solution is very prone to bacterial contamination and should be stored in the fridge and closely monitored for "cloudiness" to indicate bacterial growth.

There are a couple of links where to get Calcium Gluconate online, as well as some more general info about it in the Emergency Supportive Care Sheet 

It is commonly used in cows to boost calcium levels in lactating animals (treatment of milk fever).



Marty said:


> It's still good. I picked it up at IAD


Marty - to ensure the stability of the calcium supplements - it is recommended to replace the supplements every 6 months. If you are still working with the supplement from last IAD - it is about 10 months old. It is probably not at the heart of the issue, but is still something worth doing.


----------



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

so what is the best way to administer calcium gluconate to your frogs. Do you just put a little drop on there back? How long should you keep doing it?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It depends on the degree of problem. If the frog has shown symptoms such as seizures then bathing the frog in a diluted (2.3% solution) solution of calcium gluconate is the recommended treatment along with making sure the frog is supplied with D3 to allow for correct metabolization of the calcium. 

When dealing with sensitive froglets some people have had good luck placing a drop on the back of the froglets (I don't remember ever seeing a dilution ratio when this method is used). 

Ed


----------



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Ed said:


> It depends on the degree of problem. If the frog has shown symptoms such as seizures then bathing the frog in a diluted (2.3% solution) solution of calcium gluconate is the recommended treatment along with making sure the frog is supplied with D3 to allow for correct metabolization of the calcium.
> 
> When dealing with sensitive froglets some people have had good luck placing a drop on the back of the froglets (I don't remember ever seeing a dilution ratio when this method is used).
> 
> Ed


The frog I mentioned originalyt in this post has died but I want to treat his tank mate to make sure the same thing doesnt happen to him. So I plan to just place drops of it on his back instead of soaking him in it. But The only thing is I have the vitamin powders with D3 and everyhting in them to supliment the new liquid calcium gluconate that I got but I worry that if the frogs werent getting there calcium from the powders in the frist place then what if they dont pickl up enouigh D3 from the poweders to metabloize with the liquid calcium. Will this cause even more problems if this happens?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "there calcium from the powders in the frist place then what if they dont pickl up enouigh D3 from the poweders to metabloize with the liquid calcium. Will this cause even more problems if this happens"Endsnip

What kind of problem are you concerned about? You won't get a hypercalcemic condition as 
1) the frog can't metabolize the calcium
2) it isn't being ingested (unless the frog consumes its skin right after you place the drop on the frog) so the calcium won't be able to cause conditional deficiencies in the diet.. 


Ed


----------



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Picked up the stuff and gave this guy a soak.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Did you remember to dilute it? 

Ed


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2007)

Ed said:


> Did you remember to dilute it?
> 
> Ed


Yikes!


----------



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Ed said:


> Did you remember to dilute it?
> 
> Ed


yup


----------

