# Dendro Vents and Tincs?



## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

I have a question about mixing two species. I said wasnt going to do this but, considering I am building a much larger viv (36" x 24" x 18") 
I was considering the possiblity of mixing these two species. 

Specifically Dendrobates Ventrimaculatus "red" or "blackwater ue"
and Dendrobates Tinctorius "Citronella" 


Since the Vents are arboreal when adults, smaller, but they still are in the same genus, would this be a no-no? 


just curious. 
I do not want to create hybrids, just enjoy both species together. 

Im loving the vents markings!

and Cits are just gorgeous to me too!


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

thats only a 65 gallon tank. 

its still not a good idea. when people talk about having big enough enclosures to provide adequate space for 2 species theyre talking about tanks in the multiple hundreds of gallons. a 5 or 6 hundred gallon tank would probably be large enough, but not a 65 gallon.

and when you use terms like arboreal and terrestrial you need to understand that in captivity its pretty much meaningless, since terrestrial frogs tend to stay within 6ft of the ground and arboreal frogs can be found as high as 100ft or more. unless your enclosure can create this amount of height you cant say that your providing the niche required for a terrestrial and arboreal frog based solely on that designation.

ive come to realize that people are going to do what they want, but if you do it know that your going against the suggestion of knowledgeable hobbyists and putting frogs together, at the expense of their well being for your own personal enjoyment. it would be a testament to your intents in the hobby, particularly being new at this, and your sure to not gain any support of experienced keepers.

james


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

just get 2 tanks and enjoy both of them without jeopardizing their well being.

james


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

James is right, with such a relatively limited size area in a tank compared to the wild, there will still be plenty of cross-over between "arboreal" and "terrestrial" frogs. My vents actually seem to be about 50-50; some stay in the background more, some mixed, and I have one female who almost never goes more than 2-3 inches above the leaf litter on the floor.
And as a side note, "Dendrobates ventrimaculatus" is old, the thumbnail species have been moved into the Ranitomeya genus. Even more recently, what we had considered "ventrimaculatus" have been reclassified as populations of variabilis and amazonica. It's still a bit confusing for many, so don't worry about it if it's unclear at first.
Bryan


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

thats not really a big viv by any means. certainly not big enough to house two different species. if you were to mix species (not suggesting it though) you would need a _considerably_ larger tank. like greater than three hundred gallons. it's also important, if you are mixing, to choose frogs from the same exact locality. such as two frogs from Iquitos, Peru or Sauce, Peru. you're certainly not ready to mix though, and most likely never will be.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

split the tank with a piece of glass


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Dendroguy said:


> split the tank with a piece of glass


not that it matters since the OP hasnt responded after the first post, but splitting a tank can be a problem if not done properly since there is a far greater chance of pathogen transfer between the 2 sides than between 2 seperate tanks.

james


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

It is interesting to me to see such a strong response from such a simple question. Especially considering I did originally post that I was curious about the possibility of putting these two species in the same habitat, not post that I WAS GOING to, however it was almost treated as though I was. 

Also quite honestly several responses came across very rude and brash. 

For those that did not, thank you for your advice and information, it is greatly appreciated. 


And to clarify my reasoning for the wait to respond was simply to get multiple opinions on the matter as well as a graduation ceremony. I recently received my degree. 


Again, thank you for your input. 
And for those who have such strong opinions on the matter, which is understandable, please concider how your responses (not reactions) are worded if someone in the future simply inquires about the possibility. 
After all, being a beginner, I did post this in the appropriate forum.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Dartolution said:


> It is interesting to me to see such a strong response from such a simple question. Especially considering I did originally post that I was curious about the possibility of putting these two species in the same habitat, not post that I WAS GOING to, however it was almost treated as though I was.
> 
> Also quite honestly several responses came across very rude and brash.
> 
> ...


Yeah they just don't like mixing on here.
I think some can be a little more nice about it.
Beginners aren't really even "allowed" to even think about it unless they can provide proof with experience. Still then if you are an experienced member that has been around for a bit it is almost impossible to talk about it without people having objections.

There is only one thread on here currently when it comes to mixing but the tank being used isn't that big either. It's like only a 90 gallon.
With 2 of one dart species and a group of another dart species and some glass frogs which is a total different species of frog all together, definite pathogen issues here but it is over looked.
We are talking of about 6 frogs or more. I'm guessing a group means 3, 4 or maybe more.
I think if what was said about you needing a tank in the hundreds of gallons the the same should apply to the other person as well no matter how experienced he is.
You will find out there is lots of hypocrisy here.
Also watch and see if this doesn't start a huge debate and it really shouldn't cause people bring up pathogens to steer people away from mixing yet pathogens is over looked on the build I am taling about.
What poses the issues tho is not just space but different species have different pathogens and exposure to these other pathogens isn't good.
The Vents could carry pathogens that could be harmful for the Tincs?
Sure you can take in the account of the niches and the egg deposition sites and microfauna.
This guy is one of the best on here yet I guess the pathogen concern doesn't apply to him. 

Don't take the abrasiveness personally cause that's how a lot tend to treat the newcomers. I don't like it personally but it's really never gonna change even tho it should.
Asking them to stop being abrasive and coming across in that manor is like beating a dead horse.
btw it's best not to let them know what irritates you, once you slip up and make a mistake they will use that irritation to try to get you off the forum or to make you slip up so they can flag you for infractions. I know from experience. 
Gotta watch what you do on here cause you rub one of them the wrong way and you will lose a lot of others as well.


Good luck with your frogging and I hope to see a build journal from you soon


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> The Vents could produce pathogens that isn't could be harmful for the Tincs.


Careful here Brandon...the frogs don't produce pathogens (though they may serve as the host).


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Yeah they just don't like mixing on here.
> I think some can be a little more nice about it.
> Beginners aren't really even "allowed" to even think about it unless they can provide proof with experience. Still then if you are an experienced member that has been around for a bit it is almost impossible to talk about it without people having objections.
> 
> ...


Dragon, just drop it already... When I joined, I started a thread about a bunch of rare oophaga. I didn't get the nicest response you can get but I shrugged it off b/c I didn't take it too personally....(And I learned a lot from the post)
It's the internet.
To the OP, congratulations on receiving your degree! If you have a 90 gallon tank, then thats a good size tank for a group of frogs... Like luecomleas or anthonyi/tricolor. You have many options for a tank that big, and many ways for it too look beautiful with only ones specie of frog in it.

-Alex


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

fieldnstream said:


> Careful here Brandon...the frogs don't produce pathogens (though they may serve as the host).


Yeah I know just like how turtles and bearded dragons don't produce salmonella but they are common carriers.

I will go edit and swap out produce for carry lol


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Dartolution said:


> Also quite honestly several responses came across very rude and brash.


Unless something was deleted before I saw it, I think the advice given against mixing so far has all been said with utmost politeness and respect. Check out some of the past threads on mixing if you'd like to see some real heated debate. 

But as far as the mixing goes, do a quick search using the search feature. There has been alot of very good information that goes alot more in-depth as to why mixing is frowned upon in this hobby. Yes, you may have to sift through a couple pages of flaming, but the hard facts are there, and I'm sure there are some reasons you wouldn't even have thought of previously.

Good luck,

Pat


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I've read the thread up to your post a few times now.

I still do not see "rude and brash". I see good advice - evenly given.

I wouldn't have been surprised to see rude and brash - because this topic comes up so often from new people.

Actually - I do think there was one rude comment ("it's been almost a week since the topic came up ... ") that was uncalled for. It's interesting that subconsciously I pretty much filter that type of post out and don't even acknowledge them.

Welcome to the Board - hope your frogs are healthy.

s 


Dartolution said:


> ... Also quite honestly several responses came across very rude and brash.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm going to correct some of the misrepresentations over concerns about pathogens and parasites.. 

The issue with parasites and pathogens are from frogs that are not found in close proximity to each other in the wild. If the frogs are found in the same areas, then exposure to novel parasites and pathogens are not a concern.. however if they are from seperate areas then it is a huge concern as the pathogen/parasite can jump to the wild populations. We can see where this has already happened with a number of taxa such as tortoises in the genus Gopherus, box turtles, populations of amphibians in Arizona and California and the global issues with chytridmycosis. There is data that indicates that one or more strains of chytrid were mixed increasing thier lethality and then spread through the enviroment... This is one of the main reasons why, species from disparate regions should not be housed together. 

If the frogs were from the same area, then the novel pathogen/parasite issue is rendered moot. 

The recommendations of the size of the enclosures have a lot to do with the ability of the person to create the appropriate habitat with the appropriate barriers (not referring to a glass panel) which encourages one frog from attempting to move into the territory of the other where competition for resources can occur. Even those of us who have been around for awhile do not undertake multispecies enclosures lightly as they require some effort to make sure you have the proper conditions for both species. As a general rule of thumb, larger enclosures give a person a better chance of succeeding with resource placement which may not agree with aesthetic appeal of the enclosure (and may actually be in conflict with aesthetics). 

Some comments,

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> I'm going to correct some of the misrepresentations over concerns about pathogens and parasites..
> 
> The issue with parasites and pathogens are from frogs that are not found in close proximity to each other in the wild. If the frogs are found in the same areas, then exposure to novel parasites and pathogens are not a concern.. however if they are from seperate areas then it is a huge concern as the pathogen/parasite can jump to the wild populations. We can see where this has already happened with a number of taxa such as tortoises in the genus Gopherus, box turtles, populations of amphibians in Arizona and California and the global issues with chytridmycosis. There is data that indicates that one or more strains of chytrid were mixed increasing thier lethality and then spread through the enviroment... This is one of the main reasons why, species from disparate regions should not be housed together.
> 
> ...


exactly so mixing frogs from Columbia and Costa Rica wouldn't be wise?
Even if they are captive bred?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

To reiterate what I posted above, regardless of whether they are captive bred or not, animals from disparate regions should not be housed together. Captive breeding does not mean that 

1) it isn't carrying parasites or pathogens to itself 
2) it isn't carrying parasites or other organisms that can jump species 
3) it isn't carrying something that is harmless to itself but can cause significant things to another species. 

As I noted above there are a lot of examples of this from translocated animals, escaped animals and/or potential release of organisms from improperly disposed of materials or waste water.

With respect to the Columbia, Costa Rica comment, are you referring to species other than the ones, the original poster suggested?


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> To reiterate what I posted above, regardless of whether they are captive bred or not, animals from disparate regions should not be housed together. Captive breeding does not mean that
> 
> 1) it isn't carrying parasites or pathogens to itself
> 2) it isn't carrying parasites or other organisms that can jump species
> ...


I knew that the parasites aren't just known to wild species and they are there with captive bred species as well.

I was asking due to the fact of Costa Rica and Columbia being close but not of the same area. Just wondering if the OP or anyone could mix those two.

See Peru is closer to Columbia and Costa Rica is separated from the two due to Panama.
In order for it to be safer do the two species you are thinking about mixing need to come from the same country?
Or can you have different pathogens with species even living within the same country?


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I knew that the parasites aren't just known to wild species and they are there with captive bred species as well.
> 
> I was asking due to the fact of Costa Rica and Columbia being close but not of the same area. Just wondering if the OP or anyone could mix those two.
> 
> ...


Pathogens don't recognize contrived things such as borders...it doesn't matter what country the animals come from. Some frogs are found in the same habitat in the same areas (some populations of O. pumilio and D. auratus in Panama for example), thus they should be exposed to similar pathogens in the wild. Conversely, an auratus from Nicaragua and a truncatus from Colombia will be exposed to different pathogens (though some may be the same). There can be cross-contamination within captive collections (not properly sanitizing husbandry equipment, tanks, plants, etc...).


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

> To the OP, congratulations on receiving your degree! If you have a 90 gallon tank, then thats a good size tank for a group of frogs... Like luecomleas or anthonyi/tricolor. You have many options for a tank that big, and many ways for it too look beautiful with only ones specie of frog in it.


Thank you Alex for your compliments and comments. Much appreciated.



> But as far as the mixing goes, do a quick search using the search feature. There has been alot of very good information that goes alot more in-depth as to why mixing is frowned upon in this hobby. Yes, you may have to sift through a couple pages of flaming, but the hard facts are there, and I'm sure there are some reasons you wouldn't even have thought of previously.


Thank you Pat! Will do as well as consult the literature on these species. 
When all else fails on forums, scientific literature is the source I consult. 



> Welcome to the Board - hope your frogs are healthy.


Thank you Scott

Ed:
Something occurred to me whie reading your post about cross contamination of pathogens. 
Are there not medications that can be used for PDFs to innoculate them against parasites and disease? Being new to the hobby this has occurred to me as I read. 



> exactly so mixing frogs from Columbia and Costa Rica wouldn't be wise?


Brandon: I understood your example for the purposes you intended. 



> Pathogens don't recognize contrived things such as borders...it doesn't matter what country the animals come from. Some frogs are found in the same habitat in the same areas (some populations of O. pumilio and D. auratus in Panama for example), thus they should be exposed to similar pathogens in the wild. Conversely, an auratus from Nicaragua and a truncatus from Colombia will be exposed to different pathogens (though some may be the same). There can be cross-contamination within captive collections (not properly sanitizing husbandry equipment, tanks, plants, etc...).


Again, this brings the question to mind about antiviral/bacterial/parasitic medications that can be used? 


That's for the clarifications guys!


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Dartolution said:


> > exactly so mixing frogs from Columbia and Costa Rica wouldn't be wise?
> 
> 
> Brandon: I understood your example for the purposes you intended.


As for the part you quoted me on I wasn't meaning your frogs location in general I was just using those locations as an example and to better understand this mixing due to pathogens issue and how it can it can be safe or if it can be safely done at all. 
Wasn't really referencing you but just giving examples for us both to learn.
You said you understood for the purposes intended but if you thought I was saying that as a reference to you so Ed will say no, then that's now what I meant  I am actually hoping you can find a safe way to have 2 species in one viv.


the best way to find out if your frogs are healthy and don't have any pathogens is by a fecal smear...now as far as how to treat them to get rid of these pathogens I have no idea how or if it can be done and I would like to know my self


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> the best way to find out if your frogs are healthy and don't have any pathogens is by a fecal smear...now as far as how to treat them to get rid of these pathogens I have no idea how or if it can be done and I would like to know my self


I'm not sure where this came from since a fecal exam can give you absolutely no information on the health of a frog. It is not by means a barometer of the total health of the frog. A frog can be infected with with a variety of pathogens (and potentially some parasites) and will never show thier presence via the fecal... In addition to that example, a negative fecal is not conclusive proof that a frog does not have parasites. The best you can say is at that moment the frog was not shedding parasites...... 

The only way you can be 100% sure that the frog doesn't have parasites is to euthanize it and necropsy it. A necropsy won't even prove that the frog wasn't carrying a pathenogenic bacteria or virus. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dartolution said:


> Ed:
> Something occurred to me whie reading your post about cross contamination of pathogens.
> Are there not medications that can be used for PDFs to innoculate them against parasites and disease? Being new to the hobby this has occurred to me as I read.


First off you have to be able to determine which are infectious and which are not infectious and there isn't a great picture for that as of yet. In addition there is indication that species specific pinworms can actually be beneficial or commensual by enabling the frogs to better digest high fiber food items (arthropods) and this has been documented across taxa (tadpoles, tortoises, lizards)... 

It has been demonstrated that attempting to clear the frog of all potential parasites and pathogens can be a significant problem for the health of the animals in no small part due to the stress from the treatments (and repeated treatments) and that needs to be weighed against the long term health prospects of the animals (this was discussed fairly well here see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...regular-treatment-parasites-4.html#post298624 ). 

This is also before we get to the issue of what is likely to jump to a novel species or recombine and become a problem.... Clearing the frogs of all potential organisms that could be a problem would not only be impractical but likely to cause more problems...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fieldnstream said:


> Pathogens don't recognize contrived things such as borders...it doesn't matter what country the animals come from. Some frogs are found in the same habitat in the same areas (some populations of O. pumilio and D. auratus in Panama for example), thus they should be exposed to similar pathogens in the wild. Conversely, an auratus from Nicaragua and a truncatus from Colombia will be exposed to different pathogens (though some may be the same). There can be cross-contamination within captive collections (not properly sanitizing husbandry equipment, tanks, plants, etc...).


To build on this point.. The animals should be sympatric. People are thinking on too big of a scale to make it too simple... For example, there are multiple species of newts in China, but I would not suggest housing two species together if one originated from the northern regions of China and one from the southern regions of China. The exact animals in question must be sympatric.... you can't say well auratus and pumilio come from Costa Rica so I can use auratus from Columbia to go with pumilio from Panama..... 

Say it with me now... Sym-pat-ric

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> I'm not sure where this came from since a fecal exam can give you absolutely no information on the health of a frog. It is not by means a barometer of the total health of the frog. A frog can be infected with with a variety of pathogens (and potentially some parasites) and will never show thier presence via the fecal... In addition to that example, a negative fecal is not conclusive proof that a frog does not have parasites. The best you can say is at that moment the frog was not shedding parasites......
> 
> The only way you can be 100% sure that the frog doesn't have parasites is to euthanize it and necropsy it. A necropsy won't even prove that the frog wasn't carrying a pathenogenic bacteria or virus.
> 
> Ed


well I guess I was told wrong...thanks for the correction.
So fecal exams only help with parasites?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> well I guess I was told wrong...thanks for the correction.
> So fecal exams only help with parasites?


It will only enable diagnosis of parasites that are shed as eggs and/or larva in the fecals (and then not all of the time), other parasites that encyst in the tissues will be missed. 

A negative fecal does not mean the frog doesn't have parasites.. a positive fecal provided the owner collected a "clean" fecal (so it isn't contaminated) will allow for diagonisis of parasites that are currently being shed... 

Ed


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

How many of these species would I be able to house in the new Viv. (36"x24"x18") ? 

After reading it will either be one species or the other. 

Dendrobates Tinctorius "citronella"
Or
Ranitomeya ventrimaculata "blackwater ue" 


I was hoping for at least two pair of one species. 

Would that be possible?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dartolution said:


> How many of these species would I be able to house in the new Viv. (36"x24"x18") ?
> 
> After reading it will either be one species or the other.
> 
> ...


Your likely to have better success with the ventrimaculatus as a group than the tinctorius as some special considerations have to be taken when working with a group of tinctorius due to potential aggression. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Dartolution said:


> How many of these species would I be able to house in the new Viv. (36"x24"x18") ?
> 
> After reading it will either be one species or the other.
> 
> ...


you should get the vents if possible 

from what I read on Saurian.net neither one is good in groups but vents seem your best bet...don't hold me to this....just what I read.
Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Ranitomeya amazonicus (Red R. ventrimaculatus)


> Groups of these compatible:
> This frog seems to do well in small groups, and I have had at least one trio do well for me. However most of the negative results predicted for the other thumbnail frogs in group settings are possible with the vents, so use caution and watch them closely.



Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Dendrobates tinctorius “Citronella”


> Groups of these compatible:
> No, unless tank over 75 gallons


hopefully someone with experience can give you a more solid answer


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

They exhibit social behaviors and these behaviors can only occur when they are housed in groups.... 


http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/3/260.full.pdf 

Tactical reproductive parasitism via larval cannibalism in Peruvian poison frogs


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Ed:

Very interesting articles (saved them in iBooks) 

My question is if it would negatively affect the adults by removing the offspring and rearing outside the deposition site. 
Also, the article by Summers and Amos says


> It therefore seems possible that D. ventrimaculatus tadpoles find it difficult to complete metamorphosis without eating some other tadpoles or embry- os.


Does R. vent require the trophic eggs of the mother do metamorphosis? 

If I kept this species in a group of four or two pairs, do you think this behavior of reproductive parasitism would occur?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

No the tadpoles do not require trophic eggs and develop just fine without them. These frogs are known as facultative egg feeders (not required but will do so if provided). For pretty much all dendrobatid tadpoles, the conditions in which they are deposited in the wild tend to be lacking in animal protien which is why they tend to be so prone to cannibalism. 

If you want to try them then you need to set the enclosure up with egg and tadpole deposition sites into two distinct clusters as far away from the other cluster as possible. This will allow the males to set up thier territories with minimal aggression between the two males.. The females will be able to move back and forth between the two areas. You want to exclude or limit as much as possible tadpole deposition sites between those two areas as that would only encourage one or both males into trying to take over the tank. Ideally leave the center areas of the tank without any plantings to encourage two seperate territories.. 

Ed


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Hmm. 
That sounds like an idea then. 
What about ratios with these species? Males to females? 
Both tincs and vents ? 

There will also be a stump (built today) full of broms and vines that will act as a semi barrier between sides off-centered to the right. 

I really just can not make up my mind on which species to go in this tank! 
I am going to order a dendro az. For my 20L That has been set up for the past 8 months frogless! 
Would a pair be too crowded in this size tank? 

These would not mix with either ranitomeya ventrimaculata or dendro Tinc. 
Totally separate small tank .


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you place a bromeliad in the center full of bromeliads then you can be sure that it will be contested.... You need to have the egg and tadpole deposition sites on opposite sides of the enclosure... otherwise be prepared for aggression. If you are set on the stump being the center piece then go with one male and a group of females.

Ed


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

For either species?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dartolution said:


> For either species?


 
No for the ventrimaculatus..
Within the tinctorius group (tinctorous, auratus, leucomelas), you have a little more work.. Within the tinctorius group, you can get male to male aggression and female to female aggression ( see for example http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/27957/1/0000388.pdf 

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/46897/1/265_2004_Article_BF00164001.pdf ) 

You would need to set up several visual barriers and places for egg deposition areas to allow for the males and females to set up seperate areas but it would be much simplier to simple use a pair or a male heavy group until you gain a good insight into the behaviors of that group. If you don't set the areas up so the frogs can divide up the areas (resource allocations), then the animals may fight over one end or the other as being more opitmal. Females have been known to combat for hours which is a significant stressor and if they can't work it out can result in decline in the health or one or both animals. It can be done (I've done it among others) but you have to able to recognize it. In cases where the females don't combat to that extent, they can disrupt courtship through interference or competition for the male (they guard mates)..... 

Not as simple a picture... 

Ed


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Ed, i thought the variabilis genetics group were great group frogs? as in, they can share females/males and are not territorial toward eachother.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

curlykid said:


> Ed, i thought the variabilis genetics group were great group frogs? as in, they can share females/males and are not territorial toward eachother.


I'm still using the old nomenclature because I haven't been able to switch my brain over yet.. so my apologies. 

Can you get a copy of BioOne Online Journals - Space Use of Amazonian Poison Frogs: Testing the Reproductive Resource Defense Hypothesis? There is resource guarding by the males so you need to give the males resources that can be guarded... In nature, you get patch distribution of bromleiads for use in tadpole and egg deposition. This causes the males to have to compete for those resources (as not all are going to equally suitable nor equally available) to be able to attract females. In an enclosure people tend to uniformly distribute the bromeliads and other resouces as an aesthetic decision.. but this doesn't create the patch distribution which allows for males to set-up shop.. instead it provides one larger patch which a single male can try to control.... If I was setting up a group of these frogs in a mid-sized to large enclosure, I would have the bromeliads placed in several clumps with areas between that were/are bare of plants to create the distribution to allow the ventrimaculatus group to establish themselves..... 

Ed


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

gotcha. thanks for clarification.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

curlykid said:


> gotcha. thanks for clarification.


I have to admit that at least some of the vent group make an excellent group frog in a small enclosure (an ex-member of this board once just let them rear tadpoles until they overran a ten gallon tank), I had a group that by leaving froglets in with the adults resulted in a group of at least ten animals in a ten gallon tank... 

Ed


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Ed thank you for the clarification and articles. I will be reading those shortly as well. 

Looks like my options (staying with the two species I have selected) are either a 1:1 pair of Tinc's or a group of 4 Vents 1:3.


Now why cant I have both!!!    (pitches 3 yr old tantrum) haha 
My whole original throught process was being able to have an arboreal species with a terrestrial species. 
but... I can see now that my expectations for such in captivity with the equipment that I have were false at best. 

This thread has been very helpful in helping me decide on a species. 



> In an enclosure people tend to uniformly distribute the bromeliads and other resouces as an aesthetic decision.. but this doesn't create the patch distribution which allows for males to set-up shop.. instead it provides one larger patch which a single male can try to control.... If I was setting up a group of these frogs in a mid-sized to large enclosure, I would have the bromeliads placed in several clumps with areas between that were/are bare of plants to create the distribution to allow the ventrimaculatus group to establish themselves.....


I will still keep this in mind. I could bog the "stump" down with Broms and then on the far left side (furthest away from the "stump" have a Brom area. 

What about filling in this say 2-2.5 foot area between the two with vines and terrestrial plants instead of potential deposition sites?

Thanks again Ed for the help!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Often people over plant the enclosures because it looks nice and then when they grow in, spend a lot of time having to prune them.. The overgrown enclosures also are often not typical of the normal habitat. 

If you can seperate the two clumps by a good amount then that means you can try more than one male with several females. I would still suggest having some bare patches on the back wall and the ground to discourage the males from trying to hold all of it... 

Ed


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