# Advice from the veteran froggers



## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

I've been keeping dendrobatids now for awhile and am in finding myself in the middle of a mid-life frog crisis as it were. I recently made the decision to downsize my collection and focus on fewer species. I am WAY past the "buy one of every species available just for the sake of owning them phase" that grips many beginners.

I guess what I'm looking for is some advice from the seasoned veterans on what changes to make as I move into the next stage of my frogging career and build a more mature collection.

Questions I've been pondering:
What would be the pros and cons of swapping out my all-glass aquarium vivs for exoterras? Proteans?

What species have you found to be the most rewarding aesthetically? Financially?

What have you done to avoid fruit fly culture burnout and maintenance burnout? Sometimes I think I might lose it making culture after culture 

Whats the best change you made to your frogroom/collection and why?

I realize these questions depend entirely on personal preference but I'm still hoping to learn something from the long-timers.

Thanks!

Chris


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

REPASHY SUPERFLY- I make far fewer cultures, that last longer, and produce far more. Far fewer mite issues with less cultures around as well

Exo terras ( front openers in general) best decision ever. My tanks stay cleaner, catching frogs/pulling eggs is easier, all around better option than fish tanks

Which frogs- keep what you like most, Id vote for frogs that you see every day

Drains- I wish I drilled all my tanks. I did not. Would make maintenance SUPER EASY


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Most rewarding frog- leucomelas. So bold, comical and all around a great frog


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

If for some reason you dont have a mistking, invest in one. Best thing ever for your plants and frogs. I still hand mist occasionally. As for frogs my favorite are my bastimentos. Bold, colorful, nice call. Also no need to take care of tadpoles!


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Phyllobates said:


> I've been keeping dendrobatids now for awhile and am in finding myself in the middle of a mid-life frog crisis as it were. I recently made the decision to downsize my collection and focus on fewer species. I am WAY past the "buy one of every species available just for the sake of owning them phase" that grips many beginners.
> 
> I guess what I'm looking for is some advice from the seasoned veterans on what changes to make as I move into the next stage of my frogging career and build a more mature collection.
> 
> ...


Chris, focus on the frogs YOU LOVE the most. Don't even give a consideration to the financial aspect. If you think of frogs to keep to make money on the battle is already lost. You're much more likely not to get burned out by keeping the species/morphs that you're really passionate about. 
Downsizing will help with culture burnout. So will keeping smaller species like thumbs just because they eat less flies. 
As far as changing to exo's or custom vivs the only downsize is cost and the time spent doing everything all over again. 
I hope this helps.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

I'd say, drop a couple grand on some grannies or histos and call it a day. 

I am also switching over from aquarium tanks to Exos. The opening fronts cuts down on feeding time. I'm not completely sold on the easier accessibility aspect, but its nice to have tanks made for herps. 

In my opinion obligates have more personality than the tincs and thumbs, but I'm certain others would disagree.


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

frogparty said:


> REPASHY SUPERFLY- I make far fewer cultures, that last longer, and produce far more. Far fewer mite issues with less cultures around as well
> 
> Exo terras ( front openers in general) best decision ever. My tanks stay cleaner, catching frogs/pulling eggs is easier, all around better option than fish tanks
> 
> ...


Thanks!

What modifications, if any, have you made to your exo's? Fly escapes are another issue I'd like to minimize. (I know there are threads on mods out there so don't feel like you need to revisit those). Has the exo design changed at all to help with this recently?


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

Dizzle21 said:


> If for some reason you dont have a mistking, invest in one. Best thing ever for your plants and frogs. I still hand mist occasionally. As for frogs my favorite are my bastimentos. Bold, colorful, nice call. Also no need to take care of tadpoles!


I have one but haven't gotten it hooked back up since moving in January. Definitely need to make that a priority. Thanks!


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Chris, focus on the frogs YOU LOVE the most. Don't even give a consideration to the financial aspect. If you think of frogs to keep to make money on the battle is already lost. You're much more likely not to get burned out by keeping the species/morphs that you're really passionate about.
> Downsizing will help with culture burnout. So will keeping smaller species like thumbs just because they eat less flies.
> As far as changing to exo's or custom vivs the only downsize is cost and the time spent doing everything all over again.
> I hope this helps.


Thanks Jon. Appreciate the financial piece.


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

oldlady25715 said:


> I'd say, drop a couple grand on some grannies or histos and call it a day.


This has crossed my mind. Focus on a few more difficult or rare species...


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

frogparty said:


> REPASHY SUPERFLY- I make far fewer cultures, that last longer, and produce far more. Far fewer mite issues with less cultures around as well
> 
> Exo terras ( front openers in general) best decision ever. My tanks stay cleaner, catching frogs/pulling eggs is easier, all around better option than fish tanks
> 
> ...


All this for sure. 

Get your mist king set up.

Get frogs that feed their young if you're burn out raising tads. Or just don't pull eggs.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

I went through this same ordeal about 5 years ago. After a while you no longer own a room of cool frogs, the room owns you. To break the chains of the weight of the responsibility, I sold off everything that I kept for the sake of keeping. I narrowed my collection down to 4 species. 

The fly culturing aspect was the worst for me, so I strategized a bit and kept only one larger species. I only make two cultures a week. Much more manageable.

2 of my 3 setups are Protean tanks. They are much more beautiful than an aquarium and cleaner looking (IMO) than exo terra/zoo med style. Problem is- you have to know exactly what you want and convey that to Jason. Plus, you may have to wait. Switching over to them has resurged my interest in the hobby greatly. Maintenance and cleaning take less time as well. 

Out of necessity of having a room for my children, I gave up the frog room. Best thing that ever happened to me. I gave up racks and racks of aquaria. However, I have display tanks that I absolutely love. 

Maybe setup only a few large displays in the frog room and make it more interesting to you- perhaps a lounge. Outfit it with a comfy chair (or couch if you have the space) and a mini fridge. Make it your de-stressing place to enjoy a brew and watch the frogs.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

You can raise Dendrobates and Phyllobates tads if you add a pool of water. Much easier than feeding tads and more rewarding IMO.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Great thread....


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

i've noticed a lot of people who've been in this hobby for quite some time usually move to obligate egg feeders. this cuts down all the time raising tads and making tad tea. mistking will take care of the misting and a timer for the lgihts will take care of the turning off and on. now if we could just invent an autofeeder that dust the flies with vitamins and rotates between the vitamins


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

whitethumb said:


> i've noticed a lot of people who've been in this hobby for quite some time usually move to obligate egg feeders. this cuts down all the time raising tads and making tad tea. mistking will take care of the misting and a timer for the lgihts will take care of the turning off and on. now if we could just invent an autofeeder that dust the flies with vitamins and rotates between the vitamins


the need for tadpole tea is a total myth! 
DI WATER- pour into tadpole container
Add 2 clean leaves out of your leaf litter bag
let stand 24 hrs
add tadpole
change water 1x a week. Pour off all the old water, add new DI H20. Leave the leaves in 

SO EASY, SO VEEEERY EASY.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

whitethumb said:


> now if we could just invent an autofeeder that dust the flies with vitamins and rotates between the vitamins


Laugh now, but I tried this a good number of years ago. I hooked up some 1/8" tubing to a fly culture- cut a hole in top and siliconed the tubing in. The line led to a chamber (pop top plastic vial) that contained vitamin/calcium powder. Another line of 1/8" tubing lead to a solenoid valve that was rigged up to a timer. I had to increase the diameter to get the tubing to hook up to the valve for it to work. Then a line led to the tank I was trying to feed. 

So basically, the idea was that the flies would crawl through the tubing in the lid, into the powder chamber, and then out into the tank. The timer on the valve opened it up intermittently so as to not let too many flies through. Sounds like a great idea, but a failure : (

Sorry for the tangent.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

no where in my comment did i say it was a must or that i even do it.



frogparty said:


> the need for tadpole tea is a total myth!
> DI WATER- pour into tadpole container
> Add 2 clean leaves out of your leaf litter bag
> let stand 24 hrs
> ...


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

why do you think it failed? what was the issue? maybe a piece of banana after the powder would entice the flies go walk through the powder? lol



andersonii85 said:


> Laugh now, but I tried this a good number of years ago. I hooked up some 1/8" tubing to a fly culture- cut a hole in top and siliconed the tubing in. The line led to a chamber (pop top plastic vial) that contained vitamin/calcium powder. Another line of 1/8" tubing lead to a solenoid valve that was rigged up to a timer. I had to increase the diameter to get the tubing to hook up to the valve for it to work. Then a line led to the tank I was trying to feed.
> 
> So basically, the idea was that the flies would crawl through the tubing in the lid, into the powder chamber, and then out into the tank. The timer on the valve opened it up intermittently so as to not let too many flies through. Sounds like a great idea, but a failure : (
> 
> Sorry for the tangent.


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

frogfreak said:


> You can raise Dendrobates and Phyllobates tads if you add a pool of water. Much easier than feeding tads and more rewarding IMO.


Yeah pulling and raising tads is something I didn't mention but can become overwhelming. Lots of people would kill for the problem of too many tads I'm sure


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Phyllobates said:


> Lots of people would kill for the problem of too many tads I'm sure


Not for long. lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

whitethumb said:


> i've noticed a lot of people who've been in this hobby for quite some time usually move to obligate egg feeders.


Often the reason for this is because of the perception that obligates require a lot more experience before people try taking care of them... So once they obtain enough confidence they make the move and get some.. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## bastimentos (Jun 23, 2012)

Ed said:


> Often the reason for this is because of the perception that obligates require a lot more experience before people try taking care of them... So once they obtain enough confidence they make the move and get some..
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


 haha key word is perception.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Phyllobates said:


> Has the exo design changed at all to help with this recently?


From the original exos....the ones out now have thinner gaps on the sides and middle of the doors. There is still a small opening at the bottom corner of each. Little dab of silicone should fill that in. I am 12 exos in and just noticed it though....oh well. The bottom vent can allow escapees too. I guess something could be done to the inside out of sight...or electrical tape would somewhat blend in on the outside.

I agree...worst part of switching is doing it twice. But I am liking the looks of the tanks better and the ease to work with them. They don't utilize the space of bakers racks great, which is why I chose to make some wooden racks. 

I bought most of the exos to finish the room already....which ends up being a lot of tanks. If I were to do it again, I think I would mostly get the 24x18x24 sizes and just do 2 rows of these around the room. I am currently using 24" tall on top row and 18" tall on the middle and bottom row. 

It is a tough decision picking out the ones I would let go though. One reason why I haven't done it yet. The cultures is what annoys me the most.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

whitethumb said:


> why do you think it failed? what was the issue? maybe a piece of banana after the powder would entice the flies go walk through the powder? lol


The flies mostly avoided the chamber. The repashy calcium plus has a banana smell to it now, so maybe it could entice the flies in it more as well.

The other issue- if they did happen to get anything on them, it was groomed off well before they made it out of the tube. Another issue I didn't foresee was humidity from the culture made the powder clump up. Maybe someone can come up with a better design someday.


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Work with what makes you happy, the hobby should be FUN! if it isnt change everything about it that isnt. If you dislike fruit flies, try bean beetles if you can keep them coming reliably then switch to bigger frogs... 
Do what makes you happy, no telling what could change just next year? 
The more a thing tends to be permanent, the more it tends to be lifeless.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I"m not going to attempt to tell you what you should keep. It's a personal decision and will switch from keeper to keeper. But "financially" speaking, obligates retain their better than a lot of other frogs you could be keeping.

Exo Terras are amazing. Totally worth it.

Flies haven't ever been that big a problem for me. I make my own media which lasts quite long. I make a huge batch of the stuff, separate the media between cups, put my coffee filters in, and then I use six cultures and put the rest in the freezer. I've gone from making cultures once ever ten days to once ever two months....


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## xIslanderx (Dec 8, 2012)

I've always wondered if you could freeze a new culture before seeding. This way I am guessing you can do the hard work for a few hours, and then set yourself up for easy mode for a few months? 



SmackoftheGods said:


> I"m not going to attempt to tell you what you should keep. It's a personal decision and will switch from keeper to keeper. But "financially" speaking, obligates retain their better than a lot of other frogs you could be keeping.
> 
> Exo Terras are amazing. Totally worth it.
> 
> Flies haven't ever been that big a problem for me. I make my own media which lasts quite long. I make a huge batch of the stuff, separate the media between cups, put my coffee filters in, and then I use six cultures and put the rest in the freezer. I've gone from making cultures once ever ten days to once ever two months....


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Flies haven't ever been that big a problem for me. I make my own media which lasts quite long. I make a huge batch of the stuff, separate the media between cups, put my coffee filters in, and then I use six cultures and put the rest in the freezer. I've gone from making cultures once ever ten days to once ever two months....


So you make more then 6 cultures every 6 months right? You just make a bunch and use 6 at a time at whatever interval over that 2 month period?

As a side...not to the above quote....I never understood why people indicate making cultures doesn't get old to them when they only make a couple a week. That has no meaning....of course it doesn't. Try making 50 a week for a while and still having that same outlook on fruit flies.


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Flies haven't ever been that big a problem for me. I make my own media which lasts quite long. I make a huge batch of the stuff, separate the media between cups, put my coffee filters in, and then I use six cultures and put the rest in the freezer. I've gone from making cultures once ever ten days to once ever two months....


Freezing the media is a great idea. Gonna have to try that! You haven't noticed any decline in productivity I'm assuming?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> S
> 
> As a side...not to the above quote....I never understood why people indicate making cultures doesn't get old to them when they only make a couple a week. That has no meaning....of course it doesn't. Try making 50 a week for a while and still having that same outlook on fruit flies.


In my experience and observation, people often are significantly overfeeding their frogs particularly when the enclosures have active reproducing populations of isopods and springtails.... If people take that into account, the number of feedings can decrease along with a decrease in the number of cultures required.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Try this: picture your house on fire and you only have time to save a few frogs. Which ones do you grab?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I take my recipe, I make it in a big 10 gallon pot (my recipe requires boiling... smells like shit, but at least I only have to do it ever two or three months), and then I fill up my cultures. I only use six at a time and I only seed new cultures every two weeks. I find that my yield is quite good and I put around 2" of media per culture rather than the 1/2" that some people use. I find this helps my cultures to boom longer. I think the boiling and freezing of my cultures also helps with the mite problem as well - they die off in the process of either boiling or freezing. The only mites that ever transfer are from the old cultures.... I think I have clean cultures too because I've never had a culture die off to mite infestation (knock on wood).

So, I make more than 6 cultures per six months usually closer to 18-24 every ten to twelve weeks. I only have to cook once ever 10 - 12 weeks instead of every or every other week. If I had experienced any significant decline in productivity I wouldn't be using my method (the one thing I will say, is that if your culture is busting, give the frozen cultures 24 hours to defrost - if you put flies in right away on frozen media a large number of flies die off and it takes a little while longer to get the culture established).

Did I clear up any earlier ambiguity? If you would like my whole process you can ask for it and I will detail it here (although I'm fairly sure my process is described on another half dozen threads throughout the board).


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

Gonna have to try the freezing thing. I had tried storing some in the fridge a while back but they dried out and I didn't bother tinkering with the mixture to get it to work. Thanks Jake


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Phyllobates said:


> Gonna have to try the freezing thing. I had tried storing some in the fridge a while back but they dried out and I didn't bother tinkering with the mixture to get it to work. Thanks Jake


I didn't think about them drying out.... Immediately freezing should prevent that from happening.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Chris, what kind of frogs and how many are you looking after now? How many tanks?


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

Well, the advice everyone has given has been excellent and much of it jives with what I had been leaning towards. So I think I've settled on six to eight vivs of decent size and one or two large terrariums to satisfy my plant addiction. I have four walls of a 12 by 20 room to play with. Right now I'm thinking one rack with three 40 breeders on the bottom and three ~65 gallon front opening vivs on top for obligates. And another rack for thumbs and grow out tanks. 

The frogs that I've gotten the most enjoyment out of have been those that are the boldest so I'll probably stick with terribilis, leucs and my aurotaenia (my fav's). I also really enjoy my yuri imis and my bastis. So thats the start of the list. Basically leaves me three spots for something cool down the road. Love the blue esperanzas coming in recently, or maybe benedicta or sylvatica.

I'm also leaning towards building my own euro style vivs if I can find someone local who doesnt want exorbitant prices for glass.

I think the best advice so far was to turn the room into a hangout where I can sit and chill and watch the frogs vs. cleaning and feeding tank after tank. (Thanks andersonii85!)


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Keep fewer frogs - its difficult but it really allows you to send more time enjoying what you have. Its what I've done. When I get to many tanks going I can't take the time to enjoy them with all the work I have to do to maintain them. As for which species - whatever makes your heart jump when you see. Unless your like me and everyone you look at makes your jump - even if you've kept it for years, decades. If that's the case I'd also suggest pick something easy - their are some outstanding auratus out there and there still isn't a prettier frogs than azureus. Personally I like the smaller frogs - many of which are now placed in the genus Rantiomya. But its a personal thing. Also I like front opening tanks. If your going to be in central California anytime soon I have a few I can set you up with. But any tank will work when you get down to it. Lastly food - unless you starting buying it your just going to have to deal with making it - every week. I've been doing it for over 25 years now and haven't missed very many weeks - its the price you pay for the hobby. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

Appreciate the comments Chuck. I'm finding I like the smaller frogs too. Most of my initial purchases were egg feeders and it wasn't until I acquired a bunch of larger dendro and phyllobates that I started to get fed up with cultures. They eat way more.

But you're right, making cultures is part of the deal.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

If you like the plants and front opening.....the 24" tall exos may suit you better then the 40 breeders. The 36" would be same floor space as a 40....and the 24" is a very well rounded sized tank.


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

mydumname said:


> If you like the plants and front opening.....the 24" tall exos may suit you better then the 40 breeders. The 36" would be same floor space as a 40....and the 24" is a very well rounded sized tank.


Yeah the only reason for the 40 br over front openers is that I have three setup right now that are nicely grown in. I might replace them with front opening tanks in time.


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

I have to say I love this thread! Great advice from some great people.

I'm one of "those" that added a lot pretty quickly in the beginning.  I've already had some great conversations with a few that have weighed in here. So far I have absolutely no regrets and still loving it! I do have the fear of "burnout" sneaking up on me someday in the future do to the experience of many others. 

I already have quite a few goals of where I'd like to go as things develop. Many are some of the top tidbits of advice mentioned previously...
-I'm already planning on moving the frog room into the garage in the next 6-9 months or so(long to-do-list and preparation to do it half-way decent). It will be the frog room/man-cave. Couch, recliner, fridge are already out there. Add frogs, temp control, and TV. 
-Someday I plan to switch over to front opening vivs.
-Same for drains
-Same for MistKing
-Possibly LED's later down the road.
Also, I'll be making the little changes to the collection as I go. For example, when I first started, I bought a lot of my tincs in groups of 5 and have them divided into 2 vivs each. I imagine I'll eventually narrow them down to a pair/trio for one viv and trade/sell the remaining adults. That'll leave me another viv to rebuild for something new on my wishlist.

Thanks, Chris


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## nilraf (Mar 14, 2010)

As someone who left and came back to the hobby, thanks for all the great advice.

I started with a 24" Exo Terra, and the front openings are night and day compared to my 55 gallon standard set up. Easy access, cleaning, ventilation, and all you have to do is get a piece of glass cut for the top!

FF's arent terrible, and now you can even buy cultures at Petsmart/Petco if you have an emergency. Much easier than it used to be!

Keep em rolling in!


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