# Genuine ABG vs. ABG equivalent



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

I've seen several threads lately where people talk about making "ABG" mix from things you get at Lowes or HD. I know that the real ABG mix is a different, but similar recipe.

Is there any discernible difference in quality of substrate between the genuine ABG and the ABG "equivalent"? Anyone have experience using both? Is real ABG better than the equivalent or are they really equivalent? Is one better for microfauna growth? etc.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Equivalent is relative. 

There are a few different recipes I've commonly thought of as actual ABG mix (or equivalent):
Verison 1: 2pt Tree Fern fiber, 1pt peat, 1pt charcoal, 1pt sphagnum, 2pt coco, 2 pt orchid bark
Version 2: 2pt Tree Fern fiber, 1pt peat, 1pt charcoal, 1pt sphagnum, 2pt orchid bark
Version 3: 2pt Tree Fern fiber, 1pt peat, 1pt charcoal, 2pt sphagnum, 2pt orchid bark

I personally don't see peat being a good thing. It breaks down faster than coconut fiber would, and it can compact.

Tree fern fiber is very important, since it helps keeps the soil "airy" and virtually never breaks down. Without Tree Fern fiber and orchid bark - it's not going to work like ABG mix regardless of the other ingredients. Soil must be allowed to breathe to build beneficial bacteria, support plant life, and support microfauna.

I've heard people using "organic" potting soil mixed with orchid bark, sphagnum moss, and charcoal call it "ABG equivalent". It's not!  potting soil will quickly break down, and 90% of it contains other unwanted ingredients.

A good substrate should never exceed 50% of "soil" ingredient. (meaning coconut fiber, peat, or potting soil) More than 50% will get soggy very quickly. Ideally it should be around 35-25% of the mix, as it would be in ABG. The "saving money" thing goes a long way in this economy, so I completely understand people wanting to mix substrate themselves. Unfortunately the most expensive ingredients (orchid bark, sphagnum, charcoal, tree fern fiber) should make up the majority of the mix. 

Other info:
Charcoal = Fine/Medium grade
Orchid Bark = Fine/Medium grade (home improvement store bark works, but it's usually large grain. Zoo Med reptibark IS fine orchid bark.  )
Tree Fern Fiber = Fine/Medium grade (I've heard just fine being used - but we've had good luck with both)
Coconut fiber & "Coir" = Same thing!

I hope this helps!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

So many people want to skip the tree fern fiber because they _*think*_ it's so hard to get. It's not. You just have to plan ahead. You can get it here OFE International Web Page 
Fact of the matter is, if you skip the tree fern fiber, it is *NOT* ABG mix. In my opinion, the tree fern fiber is crucial to the recipe. 
Anybody remember playing with "Pick Up Sticks" as a child? If not, picture this, take your pick up sticks, (or 100 pencils), and hold them in one hand about 6 or 12" above the floor. Drop them on the floor. Now look at that structure. You should have sticks on top of sticks, on top of sticks, at every angle and position you can imagine. Check out all the air holes and spaces that your sticks have made. 
Now this structure is bigger than your tree fern structure will be, so lets take something bigger to represent the pieces of orchid bark and charcoal. Lets say those big 1" x 2" pink erasers that you used when you were in school. Drop 100 of those on your stick structure. Some fall through and some don't. Now put your sphagnum and peat moss over the top. 
Can you imagine all the gaps, caves, air holes, whatever you want to call them. This is what makes it so well drained. This is where your bugs climb down into and call home.
The tree fern fiber are your pick up sticks. Remove the pick up sticks and everything collapses. 
There is NO comparison. It's not the same. Substitutes may suffice, but you will never convince me that substitutes are the same.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

it might be an environmental thing, as well. Being that there are concerns for it being over harvested

Not sure what the actual situation is, though


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Has anyone heard of the the Osmundia introduced to the southeastern coast of Ireland? I wonder if anyone harvests the fibers from these (especially because they are nonnative).


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> it might be an environmental thing, as well. Being that there are concerns for it being over harvested
> 
> Not sure what the actual situation is, though


I can respect the concern for tree fern being non sustainable, and they quest to find alternative and maybe someday, better, substrates is certainly OK by me. I do see a lot of people mentioning that they left it out because they can't get it locally or because they don't want to pay shipping. I'm just pointing out that most home made mixes are not the same. I'm sure there are some great, workable mixes out there, I just don't think they should be called ABG mix. I don't think we should call an Imitator a Variabilis because, well, they look pretty much the same and they both hop.  



fieldnstream said:


> Has anyone heard of the the Osmundia introduced to the southeastern coast of Ireland? I wonder if anyone harvests the fibers from these (especially because they are nonnative).


Do you mean Osmunda? It is expensive, hard to find, and supposedly not very environmentally friendly either. 
Has anybody ever seen or tried Bruc Fiber? If it would work, it is more environmentally friendly. According to OFE, it is a possible replacement for Tree Fern Fiber. detail display sample page


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Hey PeanutButter why settle? You should build off either of those mixes as even ABG can be bettered by doing nothing more than adding clay to it. I went over there and talked to them time after time about it and proved very easily that it supports micro fauna much better. I have been toying with media mixes ever since.

By the way they did not like even a respectfull aproach about idea on bettering their ''perfect media''

Michael


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Do you mean Osmunda? It is expensive, hard to find, and supposedly not very environmentally friendly either.


Might be a different genus....essentially I was asking if anyone had heard about the treefern forests in southern Ireland that started as just a few introduced specimens. I thought it might be of interest to anyone reading this on the other side of the pond.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Hey PeanutButter why settle? You should build off either of those mixes as even ABG can be bettered by doing nothing more than adding clay to it. I went over there and talked to them time after time about it and proved very easily that it supports micro fauna much better. I have been toying with media mixes ever since.
> 
> By the way they did not like even a respectfull aproach about idea on bettering their ''perfect media''
> 
> Michael


Hey Michael, you are referring to adding a calcium clay to reap some benefits of the calcium for your microfauna and frogs, right? Like Calcium Bentonite/Montm​orillonite Clay.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

You would be correct Doug, Run off water from misting if its recirculated would be beneficial for tads, Clay is still a very underused asset in this hobby. Id also suggest not stopping there. There is always room for improvement. You cant advance anything by settling for whats been done.

Michael


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

To anyone wanting to experiment with some Montmorillonite / Calcium Bentonite, I have searched far and wide to find a good price. Try eBay seller "doormatz" 14 lb's Calcium BENTONITE Clay KOI ponds & plants WW | eBay
4 lb Calcium BENTONITE Clay KOI ponds & plants | eBay


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

poison beauties said:


> Hey PeanutButter why settle? You should build off either of those mixes as even ABG can be bettered by doing nothing more than adding clay to it. I went over there and talked to them time after time about it and proved very easily that it supports micro fauna much better. I have been toying with media mixes ever since.
> 
> By the way they did not like even a respectfull aproach about idea on bettering their ''perfect media''
> 
> Michael


Who's settling  I won't be building a new viv from scratch for a while still, but it's good to stay on top of things. I've seen this in several threads recently where people say "I got my ABG mix stuff at Lowes..." and I think to myself "no, you got stuff that is sorta like ABG. It just aint the same..." 

I agree though with mixing (please don't take out of context) substrates and trying new things out. If I had more vivs or more plants I would experiment and try new things. I've just got the 1 viv (well, technically I also have a quarantine viv but that doesn't count) so I've been really happy with the tried and true ABG as is for now. However, that's not to say that I think ABG is the end all be all of substrates.



Pumilo said:


> I'm just pointing out that most home made mixes are not the same. I'm sure there are some great, workable mixes out there, I just don't think they should be called ABG mix. I don't think we should call an Imitator a Variabilis because, well, they look pretty much the same and they both hop.


Exactly the thought I'm having. For better or worse it's not really ABG if it's not the mix that the Atlanta Botanical Gardens put together. It does seem though that ABG has made enough a name for itself in the hobby that people (generally newer froggers) want to have ABG without doing all the "work" involved with sourcing out all the right ingredients. So they get something close and say it's ABG. That got me wondering if maybe I'm overthinking this and maybe they do perform equally well. Doesn't seem like people are really thinking it does though, so I'm glad I asked.

I grew up in a home with a father who would put peas, hotdogs, carrots, or sometimes pickles/pickle juice in mac and cheese and try to pass it off as mac and cheese. Sorry dad, it just aint the same...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Mmmm...Mac and pickle!


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> So many people want to skip the tree fern fiber because they _*think*_ it's so hard to get. It's not. You just have to plan ahead. You can get it here OFE International Web Page


detail display sample page

Is that the one you meant?
It already has everything in it except sphagnum and peat.
I've been fighting with that site lol it isn't very mobile friendly


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## goncalo (Jun 28, 2010)

I am based on Europe and really dont know where to look for tree fern fiber, have been breeding dart frogs and building vivs for like 3 years and always used some kind of alternative.

Lately i have been using a mix of potting soil, coco peat, sphagnum and orchid bark, i know probably not the best but the results arent bad, everything is doing just fine and plants growing.

I am looking for advice on how to improve my substrate for plants and microfauna.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The best substrate for microfauna production, is a homemade, calcium bearing, clay substrate. The zone where leaf litter meets your clay, is very rich for microfauna production. The gaps between the clay pieces, make plenty of space for microfauna to live and breed, where the frogs can't get them, until the bugs go above surface.
Plants do great in clay substrates, too.
A lot of people are turning to homemade clay substrates for smaller frogs, and for obligates. This allows frogs that are still eating mostly springtails, to get a bit of calcium, both when they strike food with their tongue, and also through absorbtion through their skin. They get calcium while sitting around all day, doing nothing! Kind of like teenage boys...sitting around all day, doing nothing, yet somehow absorbing all the food (or calcium) in the house! 

Here's your friendly neighborhood clay thread. A lot of good heads came together to create this substrate. No, not me. All I did was tie together other peoples work and research, and maybe make it a little easier to understand. The real work was done by Ed, Brent, Matt, and Jason. Thanks guys!
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html


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## goncalo (Jun 28, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> The best substrate for microfauna production, is a homemade, calcium bearing, clay substrate. The zone where leaf litter meets your clay, is very rich for microfauna production. The gaps between the clay pieces, make plenty of space for microfauna to live and breed, where the frogs can't get them, until the bugs go above surface.
> Plants do great in clay substrates, too.
> A lot of people are turning to homemade clay substrates for smaller frogs, and for obligates. This allows frogs that are still eating mostly springtails, to get a bit of calcium, both when they strike food with their tongue, and also through absorbtion through their skin. They get calcium while sitting around all day, doing nothing! Kind of like teenage boys...sitting around all day, doing nothing, yet somehow absorbing all the food (or calcium) in the house!
> 
> ...


Thanks for info, are this good for terrestrial ones like tinctorius and phyllobates ?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

goncalo said:


> Thanks for info, are this good for terrestrial ones like tinctorius and phyllobates ?


Yes, it will increase microfauna production with any frogs. My brother uses it in his Azureus viv, and gets great isopod production. That said, not nearly as many people bother with a clay substrate for terrestrial frogs. It is a lot of work.

People are also getting good microfauna production with a 100% Turface substrate, of course topped with a good, thick layer of leaf litter.


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## rjs5134 (Feb 1, 2017)

I spent a fair amount of time yesterday researching sources for, and cost of, ABG ingredients in bulk to make my own ABG mix but I must not be looking in the right location(s). The best pricing I found is:

Tree Fern Fiber(2cf) $38.07
Long Fiber NZ Sphagnum(3.3cf) $56.99
Royal Oak Lump Charcoal(15.44#) $9.97
Fine Orchid Bark(2cf) $26.75
Peat Moss(1cf) $6.97

The prices listed are not including tax and not including shipping costs. To be completely clear, the charcoal is from HD and may be cheaper elsewhere but I used HD prices for this and the peat moss since it's easier than shipping.

Assuming ROUGHLY 7 gallons per cubic foot I figure my cost(not including tax and shipping) is approximately $9.50 per gallon of ABG mix. Most of our regular online and show suppliers sell ABG for $6.99/gallon bag to $7.99/gallon bag so I see no way of matching or beating that cost. 

What am I missing here?


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

rjs5134 said:


> What am I missing here?


...that some vendors often have their own suppliers for bulk ingredients, that cut them a deal for ordering huge quantities. The more you buy at a time, the cheaper it is.


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## Grimsrude (Apr 6, 2017)

JPP said:


> ...that some vendors often have their own suppliers for bulk ingredients, that cut them a deal for ordering huge quantities. The more you buy at a time, the cheaper it is.


Also, shipping. Many of the places you'd be buying ABG (or similar) vivarium mixes from don't have very cheap shipping. $6-8/g online + however much in shipping can actually be far more expensive if you're ONLY buying ABG mix. for example, glassboxtropicals or josh's frogs, if I wanted to only buy ABG mix, while the initial price is lower, add $15 in shipping. Unless you're buying other goods with it you've negated the price point for simplicity. Now, I've never mixed my own ABG, and don't really plan to either. But when I do buy it online, I make sure to squeeze every penny out of my shipping cost to justify the purchase. It just doesn't make sense to buy an item $1 cheaper online to pay $15 to get it mailed to you when HD, petco, etc etc can get you similar products for a couple bucks more and some gas money. 

That's just my $0.02 anyways!


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Grimsrude said:


> Also, shipping. Many of the places you'd be buying ABG (or similar) vivarium mixes from don't have very cheap shipping. $6-8/g online + however much in shipping can actually be far more expensive if you're ONLY buying ABG mix. for example, glassboxtropicals or josh's frogs, if I wanted to only buy ABG mix, while the initial price is lower, add $15 in shipping. Unless you're buying other goods with it you've negated the price point for simplicity. Now, I've never mixed my own ABG, and don't really plan to either. But when I do buy it online, I make sure to squeeze every penny out of my shipping cost to justify the purchase. It just doesn't make sense to buy an item $1 cheaper online to pay $15 to get it mailed to you when HD, petco, etc etc can get you similar products for a couple bucks more and some gas money.
> 
> That's just my $0.02 anyways!


Tree fern fiber isn't going to be readily available at your local Home Depot or Petco though.

If you buy ABG mix from vendors at shows like rjs5134 mentioned, you won't have to bother with shipping. That said, when you order substrates (which I sometimes do anyhow) the shipping is sometimes expensive simply due to the weight of the order. It depends on where you live though too; I can get several gallons of substrate from Josh's shipped for about $9 and it arrives in just 2 days. But shipping in other aspects of the hobby can be much more costly, like ordering frogs or high end plants combined with overnight service. This isn't the hobby to get into unless you're willing to spend money though.


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## Grimsrude (Apr 6, 2017)

JPP said:


> Tree fern fiber isn't going to be readily available at your local Home Depot or Petco though.
> 
> If you buy ABG mix from vendors at shows like rjs5134 mentioned, you won't have to bother with shipping. That said, when you order substrates (which I sometimes do anyhow) the shipping is sometimes expensive simply due to the weight of the order. It depends on where you live though too; I can get several gallons of substrate from Josh's shipped for about $9 and it arrives in just 2 days. But shipping in other aspects of the hobby can be much more costly, like ordering frogs or high end plants combined with overnight service. This isn't the hobby to get into unless you're willing to spend money though.


Oh I agree, I wasn't entirely justifying those who mix their own, and you're entirely correct - I've never seen tree fern fiber at any local stores. I'd love to take the opportunity for local herp shows but for whatever reason Dallas doesn't get a lot of attention except occasional ones in Arlington. There's one in Amarillo but that's a 5 hour drive from me haha. 

But yeah, at the end of the day, paying (and getting shipped) a proper substrate is why I don't even bother trying to mix my own. There's room in this (rather expensive) hobby to save some money, but a proper substrate really isn't something I personally want to play around with. As an example - my local hydroponics store sells coco coir for dirt cheap by the gallon, but the stuff they use I've found is not very animal safe (loaded with absorbed salts for PH balancing). Great alone for growing plants, but I'm certain I wouldn't want a frog near that stuff.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

It's been priced out both ways, buying it, or making it, by more than a few people. Due to bulk pricing, it is cheaper to buy your ABG premade, unless you are making a large quantity, like 20 tanks or more.


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## goncalo (Jun 28, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Yes, it will increase microfauna production with any frogs. My brother uses it in his Azureus viv, and gets great isopod production. That said, not nearly as many people bother with a clay substrate for terrestrial frogs. It is a lot of work.
> 
> People are also getting good microfauna production with a 100% Turface substrate, of course topped with a good, thick layer of leaf litter.


Do you know if wakamada soil is somehow similar to that clay substrate or if it can be enriched to be similar ? Really dont know where to look for most of the parts of the clay substrate, i am not in US btw.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I've never heard of wakamada soil, and Google is giving up nothing on the subject.

The fact that it has the word "soil" connected to it, tells me no. Clay and organics are 2 different schools. Mixing them is counterproductive. Organic soils will bind the calcium up as fast as it is being released by the clay. Additionally, moister organic soils can keep the clay wetter than it is supposed to be. This can turn the clay into mush over time, which in turn causes drainage issues.


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## Keni (Feb 1, 2017)

Bentonite Clay | Bulk Apothecary

Is this the same clay that you guys are talking about?


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## Keni (Feb 1, 2017)

What about mixing some of this clay into the water reservoir for our misting systems? Would there be a benefit to doing so? Or maybe just adding a calcium powder to the water...


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## Keni (Feb 1, 2017)

JPP said:


> shipping in other aspects of the hobby can be much more costly, like ordering frogs or high end plants combined with overnight service. This isn't the hobby to get into unless you're willing to spend money though.


I'm fairly new to keeping dart frogs but I came from the reef hobby and this how it is ordering fish and corals online. People outside of the hobby think I'm crazy for paying $60 for overnight shipping but it's the cost of the hobby.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Keni said:


> Bentonite Clay | Bulk Apothecary
> 
> Is this the same clay that you guys are talking about?


No, it's what I linked earlier. You have to make it yourself. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html

I would not advise putting anything but water through your misting systems. Clay and calcium rain would eventually kill every plant, as each successive misting cycle puts a new deposit on. I can't imagine frogs would much appreciate mud rain, either.

If you want a clay substrate, go all in or go home (back to ABG or traditional substrates...I'm not saying to leave). If you want supplements, Repashy Calcium Plus will do a fine job for you.


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## goncalo (Jun 28, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I've never heard of wakamada soil, and Google is giving up nothing on the subject.
> 
> The fact that it has the word "soil" connected to it, tells me no. Clay and organics are 2 different schools. Mixing them is counterproductive. Organic soils will bind the calcium up as fast as it is being released by the clay. Additionally, moister organic soils can keep the clay wetter than it is supposed to be. This can turn the clay into mush over time, which in turn causes drainage issues.


My bad, i wrote it wrong way its Akadama substrate and it is a clay based substrate used in bonsai hobby.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Got it. I'm am familiar with it, and I should have caught it as a misspelled word. My daughter and I spent some time in the bonsai hobby. We became quite skilled at killing them. 
It is naturally occurring and is mined already "as is". It comes in different grades of hardness, with harder grades being more expensive, and taken from deeper down.
In the bonsai hobby, your tree will be uprooted, given a fairly aggresive "haircut" around the root ball, and replanted. That means that akadama needs to last for one year to be a workable bonsai substrate.
Do you know how long it will last in your viv, because a year is nothing for a frog that can go live another 15 yrs? IF it will hold up for 15 years, you could use it. Calcium content would be unknown, and we also don't know how locked up the calcium is, if there is any.
If you go that route, I'd highly advise getting the hardest, deepest mined, which will also be the most expensive grade. That could be expensive, as any akadama is expensive. The phrase, "dirt cheap", does not apply to akadama.

Akadama would not give you the same results as a homemade, calcium bearing, clay substrate. 

Turface would give you pretty much the same results as akadama, with a few differences. It is man made. It is fully fired and therefore harder and longer lasting than the best akadama. Turface has also been well proven as a suitable, stand alone substrate. (of course you still want leaf litter!) 
It's also dirt cheap, and much more readily available.


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## cba191 (Nov 27, 2017)

Old thread, but can you substitute eco earth for tree fern fiber?


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

I'd like to clear up one incorrect premise that's been mentioned in this thread, namely the tree fern is not sustainable. New Zealand tree fern is sustainably grown and harvested so there's no concern there if you are using New Zealand tree fern. However you can very closely approximate the function of tree fern by substituting course pearlite and LECA pellets. And then I'd recommend a further substitution of coconut husk chips (CHC) for orchid bark. These 2 substitutions together will serve to replace the fir bark and tree fern fairly faithfully, as the CHC holds more moisture then either the bark or tree fern, but the pearlite and LECA will hold very little moisture so the net effect will approximate the moisture retention and air spaces of the original two materials with the added benefit of being far more resistant to decomposition. So ABG made with these additional substitutions should have a useful life of 4 to 5 years rather than the 1 to 3 years of the original formulation.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

John J M said:


> However you can very closely approximate the function of tree fern by substituting course pearlite and LECA pellets. And then I'd recommend a further substitution of coconut husk chips (CHC) for orchid bark. These 2 substitutions together will serve to replace the fir bark and tree fern fairly faithfully, as the CHC holds more moisture then either the bark or tree fern, but the pearlite and LECA will hold very little moisture so the net effect will approximate the moisture retention and air spaces of the original two materials with the added benefit of being far more resistant to decomposition. So ABG made with these additional substitutions should have a useful life of 4 to 5 years rather than the 1 to 3 years of the original formulation.


Hmmm...I disagree strongly with the suggested substitutions, based on my experience with the products mentioned (as well as some limited experience with non-standard ABG, which can be a miserable waste of money and effort). 

Coco chips are far, far more moisture retentive than any orchid bark, especially good products such as Orchiata (which I use for all my potted epiphytic orchids). Coco chips mold something terrible, too. I use coco chips extensively in reptile enclosures, and have for a handful of years. It does not tolerate wetness well. Making viv substrate too moisture retentive is probably the number one way novices get it wrong.

Tree fern, especially the non-sustainable "hard" variety, holds open larger air pockets than perlite or any rounded media ever will, in virtue of the shape of the tree fern bits -- they don't pack, and media can't pack around them uniformaly. Even the NZ stuff is a questionable substitute for the hard type. I've used (and currently have on hand) both varieties.

Perlite is often mentioned as a possible impaction risk for all captive herps. I couldn't find a published case of any impaction incident with a quick Scholar search, but the risk is non-zero, so most keepers avoid it if possible.

The original formulation lasts much longer than 3 years -- I've seen eight years repeated a couple times, and I believe that easily.


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Hmmm...I disagree strongly with the suggested substitutions, based on my experience with the products mentioned (as well as some limited experience with non-standard ABG, which can be a miserable waste of money and effort).
> 
> Coco chips are far, far more moisture retentive than any orchid bark, especially good products such as Orchiata (which I use for all my potted epiphytic orchids). Coco chips mold something terrible, too. I use coco chips extensively in reptile enclosures, and have for a handful of years. It does not tolerate wetness well. Making viv substrate too moisture retentive is probably the number one way novices get it wrong.
> 
> ...


Why am I not the least bit surprised to find you in disagreement? (Rhetorical question). I've used CHC extensively for both epiphytes and terrestrial orchids and have NEVER had any problems with mold. And as for course grade pearlite causing impactions, perhaps if you've got bullfrogs, but I fail to see how a dart frog would be capable is ingesting a particle that's half its total size or bigger. If I understand you correctly, you're even in disagreement that New Zealand tree fern is even tree fern, or do you have something against New Zealanders? I believe I alluded to the fact that CHC is far more water retentive than bark. But when it is mixed with other less absorbtive materials because of the properties of water they quickly wick the water away from the CHC and more evenly distribute the moisture throughout the media. I've grown several species of Vanilla grossly overpotted with a mixture containing some CHC as a water reservoir outside with our daily heavy rains in SWFL and have never experienced either root rot or mold. I'm not compelling you to use anything other than the original ABG. But there are really good alternative materials available to the hobbyist will to open their minds and embrace new ideas.


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

I'm retracting my corrections l made here to the above reply because I was able to find how to edit some autocorrect mistakes that I hadn't caught prior to the original post.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Substitutions have been tried with varying degrees of success, often poor. No one is failing to listen to new ideas. The archives have plenty of examples of regretful attempts to improve on ABG, usually involving increasing the moisture retention. Tearing down a viv because of misguided experimenting isn't a good use of time and materials, IMO, but that's often the consequence of questionable substrate choices.

Specifically about the tree fern: the Fernwood product is more dense and absorbent and compressible than others, which are the opposite qualities that this element of the mix is supposed to have. There isn't any dispute that it is in fact a species of tree fern.


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

I think that the nice part about using easy to acquire materials and then formulating you own custom mix based upon your unique environment and needs may serve hobbyists better than a 'one size fits all' mixture. Since you're familiar with epiphytic orchids you've no doubt come to realize that not all orchid mixes are equal or suitable to everyone's growing conditions. What works well for me in SW Florida wouldn't be expected to serve your needs in WI. But by understanding the properties of each of the available materials available and then formulating a mix based upon your particular needs, and perhaps with some trial and error, the hobbyist can formulate their ideal mixture. My goals are to provide a relatively low to medium retentive mixture that is resistant to decomposition and has excellent drainage. So I prefer using more inorganic materials or organic rot-resistant substances for longevity. My environmental conditions are fairly stable throughout the year. However, you have a more challenging environment, with dry indoor air in winter and your summer depends a lot on your personal preferences for air airconditioning. And the depth of your growing media may be different from mine. So if you've experienced great results with the original ABG, then absolutely you should continue to use what works well for you.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

@John J M , I applaud your efforts to provide options to folks. I don't think ABG was ever designed to be a single go-to substrate for every purpose. I think the Atlantic Botanical Gardens folks used this mix for specific purposes and used variations for different situations. I wasn't there, though, so maybe I am wrong  What you have to understand, though, is that folks from all over the world come to this site to get advice on how to set their tanks up. You might be right about your changes to the mix, but they haven't been tested yet (as far as I know), so ABG is still a safer suggestion than a potential substitution mix (see my caveat, below). I think we can view this kind of like some kinds of software that come in a stable release that has fewer features but is more...stable and a more experimental release containing a greater number of features but it might crash on you. Because it's tough enough to learn how to set up a dart frog tank and how to care for dart frogs, we want to increase people's odds of success by recommending tried and true methods that have worked for a lot of people for a long time. This might mean that we don't recommend something that could someday represent a best practice because it hasn't been tested enough yet or it might be tougher to implement because it reduces the likelihood that a new hobbyist will have success. 

Your example of WI vs. FL conditions is appropriate for outdoor conditions but is less indicative of the what we do on this board. We are trying to put together enclosures that are as close to natural conditions as we can and these natural conditions tend to converge for dart frogs. This means that the environmental parameters for _the inside _of most of our tanks are likely to be very similar, regardless of what is going on outside the glass. So, most of us are striving for reproducing the similar conditions. That's why it might be possible to predict the outcome of some experiments better (with a lot of experience) than if we all were shooting for varying environmental conditions. 

Having said all that, the problem with recommending ABG at this point is that it is becoming more and more difficult (if not impossible) to produce old school ABG because the lack of availability of the same type of tree fern fiber that was originally used. This means that there is little alternative to monkeying around with the holy recipe IF you are looking for an ABG-type substrate. I think that allowances must be made in this situation which means we really don't know what the conservative, least-risky path forward is. 

Even though the first paragraph above is not directly applicable to ABG because it's tough to make real ABG anymore, I wanted to make sure you understood where I and others stand with regard to experimentation in general. It's not to be discouraged, but it should be apparent that what someone is doing is experimentation/speculation rather than advocating for an alternative tried and true method. By all means, try new stuff and report on the successes and failures (probably more important and far less often reported) - just try not to risk the health of your frogs.

Mark


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