# "Rich Man's Hobby"



## jbherpin

My mother started into darts approximately in 2008. She found success very fast with her initial pair(Suriname Cobalt). She moved on to D. auratus, and finally D. leucomelas. I always wanted to get into darts, but she would tell me it is a "Rich Man's Hobby". After 2 years she was having little success with tad rearing and she sent home a group of 6 tads with me on a visit to see her(All 6 metamorphed, with 1 suffering from SLS). I am NOT a "Rich Man", but have found it quite easy to find ways to make it work, and with great success. My question is why is this hobby labeled as a "Rich Man's Hobby"?

Take exception to initial acquisition, and feeders(initially), the care of dart frogs can be done for VERY minimal spending. Am I wrong?

Thanks in advance for the input!

JBear


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## itsott

It is mostly start up cost< after that you can get by pretty cheap unless you have a very large collection.


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## jbherpin

To expand upon that, some examples would be...

I have done:

-Saran Wrap'd Screen lids
-Use almost exclusively Pothos
-Raid med cabinet for expired scripts pill jars to use as refuge/egg depos/tads depos 
-Use backyard leaves(thoroughly inspected, boiled, baked, and microwaved)
-Buy feeder containers(@ .25 cents a peice, 6 a month...) from a local deli(recycling only lids)

Just a few examples...

JBear


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## BBJ

I think the reason it may be referred to as a "rich mans hobby" is the fact that the frogs themselves, particularly the more rare species often come with quite a heavy price tag.
People often drop their jaws and look very sceptical when i tell them about the price ranges for these "tiny little frogs".

And so, as you mention - the initial cost of setting up a vivarium and buying all the needed supplies and frogs can be very expensive.
In the long run though, once you are up and running it really isent a very expensive hobby in my opinion.
The only recurring expense is basically supplies for feeders along with some electricity and perhaps a few other supplies. Not very expensive at all.
I even think the aquarium hobby would beat us, in terms of recurring expenses.

If you are succesful in breeding frogs, you may even end up earning back a little bit of that initial investment.


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## varanoid

Reef tanks are way more expensive in terms of initial setup costs, livestock costs when you take into account fish corals inverts janitors, and electrical monthly cost. Reefing is more a "rich mans hobby" than dart frogs easily.


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## itsott

I agree with that also.


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## thedude

One of the cheapest pet hobbies I've ever heard of. Snake, lizard, bird, and turtle hobbies are way more expensive.

Ever seen the average amount someone spends on one dog? It makes me want a dog a bit less


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## mordoria

No way. This is one of the cheapest hobbies Ive ever had. Other hobbies such as R/C cars, card games (magic, pokemon), and even sports, cost way more then the frogging. A typical sports package for TV and even tickets can cost more than $50 a pop. I know people who can spend more then $100 a week on booze and other vices.
After initial expenses, it costs me nothing more then Repashy Icb and a light bill. Theres the ocasional 5$ here and there but other than that, costs are low.
Now, that does not mean that one could splurge a bit, here and there. Mist kings, exo terras, Solartes, it can add up if you let it.

Also I think that in the "olden days" of frogging, things were more costly. Im not sure though, Ed said he used to get BJ pumilios for $16!!!!!!!


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## Mitch

Rich man's hobby? No way. Have you ever tried reefing? This is probably one of the much more cheaper hobbies.


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## curlykid

HAHAHAHA!!! tell her to look up the costs of a reef tank. have the paramedics nearby....


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## eldalote2

Yes, Reefing is a "Rich Mans Hobby". It seems like you can't get a showcase reef tank without all the bells and whistles that cost a couple hundred dollars each. Fish that you either never see or fish that you watch be beat up before your eyes. I am definitely over the whole aquarium hobby except for my one betta fish. 

Frogs can be as expensive or inexpensive as you want. I know I have cut corners, but do the frogs care? Not usually. 

Those corals sure do care when they start to melt or wage chemical warfare within your tank. Worst. Most Expensive. Hobby. Ever.


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## markpulawski

Sounds like reefing was very rewarding for you Angela.


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## Dendroguy

Frogging is more of a middle class mans hobby,orchids were more expensive,lights,water,not to menchion the orchids themselves,I can name at least 10 orchids over 1000,and one over 5000 
(for the orchid enthusiast,the 5000 dollar orchid is Phragmepedium kovachii)


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## lapidsilver

I had no idea Orchids could be so expensive! googled the $5,000 one and it must look better in person.

Dart Frogs can be as expensive a hobby as you want to make it, but I agree that Reef tanks are wayyy more expensive. Water features can add to the cost of the tank, having a glass shop drill holes for a misting system, LED lights, etc.

I'm pretty sure I'm not Rich and I've got plenty of happy frogs.


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## frogparty

Yeah but the orchids go so well in the vivs... I probably put $200wortu of orchids into every Viv I make. Not cheap, but I do always seem to make my $back selling divisions


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## B-NICE

I think it starts off being a bit expensive. Knowledge is key in this hobby. If you start off without knowing that most of the supplies you buy at pet stores are the same things at lowes and home depot, your going to spend at least50% more MONEY! Sticking with this site you will learn the tricks of the trade very fast, without it your going to swim with the Sharks and get ate. 

What you may want to buy at a pet shop: Hydrometer (though you can tell if your viv is humid by seeing condensation), Woods, Coco Huts, filters and water pumps, automatic misters, heat lamps and pads, substrates, and some plants.

Things you could avoid buying at a pet shop: Temp gauges (buy a temp gun), Lights for plants, most mosses, and misters.

If I left something out do add.


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## jrgobble

No doubt the reef tank, or fish in general is more expensive. So is the other pets. I did spend quite a bit up front, but you should on any start up with pets to do it right. A dog average cost for its lifespan is over $24,000.00. Thats way more than most frogs in the same time frame. I spent over $6000.00 on my reef tanks before I gave up. Johnny


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## B-NICE

jrgobble said:


> No doubt the reef tank, or fish in general is more expensive. So is the other pets. I did spend quite a bit up front, but you should on any start up with pets to do it right. A dog average cost for its lifespan is over $24,000.00. Thats way more than most frogs in the same time frame. I spent over $6000.00 on my reef tanks before I gave up. Johnny


Thank god I don't like fish, just too much water for me. I hate changing the turtles water....


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## motydesign

hahah this is my cheapest hobby and very rewarding mentally for me. (i consider this my zen garden)

and my racing is by far the most expensive.
the average racing program at miller motorsports is around $30k a year with some FAR more than that.


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## poison beauties

I call this a more respected hobby but not a rich mans hobby. Its too bad that most look at this hobby as a source of income before even getting thier first darts, why else would there be so much push by new hobbyists for proven only frogs. recently had a new hobbyist on this board tell me no thanks to a pair of 5 month oow sex pair of vanzos because he didnt want to wait that long for breeding, never had darts before but thought he could just take on provens and master them to make money. He took offense that I had already sold the proven pair and offered the juvie sexed pair for half the price shipped which was $150. Its the way we put attention on the frogs, the prices and rarity that drives this to look like a hobby fit for the rich. Will I keep frogs from someone based on whether they can afford them, no but I dont like when it turns into a plan to do nothing but make money off the frogs, if you dont have any interests in just enjoying them sitting in the viv you probably dont need this hobby as these people tend to stress the frogs, over breed them and do not even get or have a plan for cycling the frogs back to rest and do their thing.

We put more work and science into out hobby, that said Id think we are one of the more respected in atleast the herp world.

My most expensive hobby has to be having kids, stopped at 4 of them but will likely pay for the rest of my life..........

Michael


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## B-NICE

I agree with poison beauties. If you just jump in the frog game to breed and make money, its not a hobby for that person(s). On the other hand I can't knock the hustler, if thats what you want to do, its on you. this is a free country.


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## Pumilo

Getting serious about RC cars can rival the expense of Reefing. If you are racing your battery packs run $80 plus each. You need 4 for a race day as you can only charge a race pack once a day. Practice before the race is a necessity. There's 4 more packs. $100 to $300 for a decent charger. And that's only the batteries! Max and I just play in the field with ours now. Haven't been able to afford racing since I had kids!


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## B-NICE

Try being a sneaker collector. Thats a rich man's hobby.


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## poison beauties

Doug if you have had any experiences like me dont forget the extra charger and battery pack for the kids to tear up. I named mine Chaos, I was sure I'd be punished for it and have been.


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## Julio

any and every hobby is just as expensive as the next, there are snakes out there that i remember being 100k, thank goodness frogs are not that high.


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## zBrinks

I wouldn't consider this a rich man's hobby. I'd consider it a poor man's hobby (after all those frogs, you're going to be poor). 

Honestly, this hobby can be fairly inexpensive. I started with a group of leucomelas, and did not get another species until I had produced healthy froglets, and have funded the rest of my frog endeavors by trading frogs or using money made from selling froglets. It takes more time to have a larger collection, but the collection grows as the experience does - I find this much more rewarding.


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## trdlabs

varanoid said:


> Reef tanks are way more expensive in terms of initial setup costs, livestock costs when you take into account fish corals inverts janitors, and electrical monthly cost. Reefing is more a "rich mans hobby" than dart frogs easily.


I second that. I don't know how I ever did 5 reef tanks. I had to start up my own fish business just to support that hobby.  And then I breed Panther Chameleons, Pygmy's and Veil's. This whole frog thing is a cake walk.


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## motydesign

poison beauties said:


> My most expensive hobby has to be having kids, stopped at 4 of them but will likely pay for the rest of my life..........
> 
> Michael


YUP!!! thats a Rich mans hobby right there!!!!! hahaahahh


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## poison beauties

Julio said:


> any and every hobby is just as expensive as the next, there are snakes out there that i remember being 100k, thank goodness frogs are not that high.


I remember when those plattydaddy balls came out, I think he wanted 250k for the first one if I remember correctly, still 10k for an ivory retic, 4k for an albino iguana, and 15 for albino blackhead pythons is crazy. I put alot of time into the herp hobby and its clear if your not first in the morphs race your not winning out. Good thing most dont put that mindset in this hobby or it would be a mess.

Michael


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## B-NICE

Who's paying 250k for a snake?


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## motydesign

designer animals........ i hope we never see it here.


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## Scott

Just my opinion - but you have this backwards.

The containers are all plastic, and VERY easy to clean.

The lids have fabric (or paper), and do NOT clean well.

I may have interpreted this based on your word "recycle". Depends whether you mean to recycle to use, or recycle to a recycle bin (toss).

I'd never reuse a lid.

s


jbherpin said:


> ... -Buy feeder containers(@ .25 cents a peice, 6 a month...) from a local deli(recycling only lids)


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## fieldnstream

In my experience, one thing that keeps the hobby from being too expensive is the generosity of more experienced froggers/breeders. Whether that means giving free tads, selling frogs at about 30% of their value, or going above and beyond what has been asked for in a trade, this hobby is full of people who love to help others. If I had paid "full-price" for my frogs my collection would be much smaller. I try to pay this forward (cliche I know) by giving new froggers deals on bugs, supplies, plants, frogs, etc... and I think that is key to keeping the hobby accessible to people of all means.


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## xsputnikx

Mitch said:


> Rich man's hobby? No way. Have you ever tried reefing? This is probably one of the much more cheaper hobbies.


A-men I have reef tanks I have flown rc air planes I have had rc nitro cars. I have raised snakes. 

Reef tanks and rc planes are way more expensive try paying 800.0 for a 1/4 scale plane that can be destryoyed and any giving moment


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## jbherpin

Scott said:


> Just my opinion - but you have this backwards.
> 
> The containers are all plastic, and VERY easy to clean.
> 
> The lids have fabric (or paper), and do NOT clean well.
> 
> I may have interpreted this based on your word "recycle". Depends whether you mean to recycle to use, or recycle to a recycle bin (toss).
> 
> I'd never reuse a lid.
> 
> s


I always soaked them in a bleach water solution and reuse... SHould I not do this? It has never seemed to cause any harm... Thanks!

JBear


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## Pumilo

poison beauties said:


> Doug if you have had any experiences like me dont forget the extra charger and battery pack for the kids to tear up. I named mine Chaos, I was sure I'd be punished for it and have been.


Uhh...you named your kid, Chaos? I like it!  I'm changing Max's name to Havok!



xsputnikx said:


> A-men I have reef tanks I have flown rc air planes I have had rc nitro cars. I have raised snakes.
> 
> Reef tanks and rc planes are way more expensive try paying 800.0 for a 1/4 scale plane that can be destryoyed and any giving moment


OK, new most expensive hobby...Building toothpicks! When I was 16 I spent most of my spare time throughout the school year building a large, remote controlled plane. I believe it was in the air for about 15 to 20 seconds. The end result was a huge pile of the most expensive toothpicks mankind has ever seen!


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## Tadbit

poison beauties said:


> My most expensive hobby has to be having kids, stopped at 4 of them..........
> 
> Michael



No doubt they are a drain! 

I'm not sure, maybe it was in an old Ed post but I think he said you have to wait 6-9 years oow before you can try to get a return on the investment.















j/k of course.


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## B-NICE

Yea Kids LOL. I have 1.1, 7 & 4 yoow. I'm currently out of that hobby. X-mas is coming up people. $$$$$$$


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## frogfreak

jbherpin said:


> I always soaked them in a bleach water solution and reuse... SHould I not do this? It has never seemed to cause any harm... Thanks!
> 
> JBear


That's what I do too. Soak them overnight, rinse and they're like new.


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## fieldnstream

jbherpin said:


> I always soaked them in a bleach water solution and reuse... SHould I not do this? It has never seemed to cause any harm... Thanks!
> JBear


I soak the cups and lids in a 5% bleach solution for about 30 mins, rinse really well, then run them through the dishwasher...works like a charm. Some of my lids have been used at least 5 times and are still going strong.


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## Ed

Scott said:


> I'd never reuse a lid.
> s


Maybe I'm cheap but I've been reusing some lids for several years at least. A quick soak in bleach and then a rinse and air dry and they look as good as new. The fabric surprisingly is longer lasting than the plastic it is bonded to... after a couple of years the plastic softens and either doesn't seal well or it cracks at the edge and doesn't seal well. At that point they go into the recycle bin. 

Ed


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## Pumilo

I re-use my lids and containers.


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## bsr8129

Pumilo said:


> Getting serious about RC cars can rival the expense of Reefing. If you are racing your battery packs run $80 plus each. You need 4 for a race day as you can only charge a race pack once a day. Practice before the race is a necessity. There's 4 more packs. $100 to $300 for a decent charger. And that's only the batteries! Max and I just play in the field with ours now. Haven't been able to afford racing since I had kids!


There's your problem, electric, go nitro and you dont have to worry about all those batteries and chanrgers. Just Fuel and go.......


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## JimO

Heck, I've kept local herps all my life and have kept saltwater and then reef tanks (I still have a small one) and even the local stuff has to be housed, fed and cleaned up after, even though the animal itself might be "free" (minus gas, bandages, polysporin, and Advil after hunting for hours to find them). 

There are not only lots of ways to get into the hobby less expensively than even keeping local snakes and lizards, but I've found ways to trade and sell enough stuff that I just about break even. I never could do that with other herps, and certainly not with reef tanks (except that my small reef has been doing great and I've been harvesting xenia and mushroom anemones to trade at the local pet store ).

Also, anyone priced an African Grey or Yellow-Naped Amazon parrot lately? Keeping any kind of captive or domesticated living thing can turn into a "Rich Man's Hobby". I'm not rRich and yet I even manage to keep four teenage boys alive. Dart frogs are a piece of cake by comparison.


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## poison beauties

Yeah the cost of upkeeping some of those birds is insane, 3k on a cage, all the toys they need to keep interested and then my wife fed them better than me.....Horrible part is our unbrella cockatoo and the grey were taken out by my 13' male barneck scrub on one of his escape advantures though the house. 

Doug the boys I was given the chance to names and only ended up with Chaos, I wanted a little brother for him named Riot and ended up with the wife naming the girls Roxy, Pixie and Trixie...........Lots of trouble down the line I fear. WOnt matter I will be in prison when the first one hits puberty Im sure.

The python hobby has a 20 year headstart on this hobby and was easier to master with breeding and spotting genetic mutations, hell you can buy a two headed snake now if you have 15k, the mess of morphs is due to years and years of line breeding and crossing the morphs, The only 1 I had to hand over thousands for were the albino boas from Peter Kahl in the mid 90's, by time the snows came out in 96 I was already aking money to buy up the morphs, It only works if you get them while they are new otherwise you take 3 yrs to breed and raise something and your lucky if the entire clutch is worth what you paid for the breeders.

As for the culture lids I clean them as well and reuse them, not the cups as its a headache when you have to remake30-50 cultures at a time like I have so theres no way Im cleaning out the cups and making new media.

Michael


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## Scott

There is no maybe about your being cheap dude. 

But I'd never reuse the lids. Ever.

That's just me I guess.

s



Ed said:


> Maybe I'm cheap but I've been reusing some lids for several years at least. A quick soak in bleach and then a rinse and air dry and they look as good as new. The fabric surprisingly is longer lasting than the plastic it is bonded to... after a couple of years the plastic softens and either doesn't seal well or it cracks at the edge and doesn't seal well. At that point they go into the recycle bin.
> 
> Ed


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## frogfreak

I've never heard of this hobby being called that before.

You could achieve a fairly simple set up without spending a lot. A couple of frogs in an aquarium without a background. Some leaf litter, a few plants and maybe some wood and a cocohut and you're good to go.

And then they're some of us who spend more on the tanks, decor and plants than the frogs.


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## Tricolor

I always called count chocola a rich man cereal. When young and single in my 20s I was only able to splurge for it once a year. It cost like 5 bucks. where coco peebles cost 3. Now that I can afford it I cannot find it. Dag nabbit.


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## Raf

I don't think this is a Rich Man's Hobby. If you see how much a viv cost secondhand (at least in Belgium/netherlands). You get a working viv complete for under 200€. The frogs are relatively expense. the choice of plants can be more expensive but the frogs don't care which plant you use.


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## Neontra

Well, lets see. For a decent display tank for dart frogs:
55g Aquarium - 60$
False bottom supplies - 10-30$
Substrate supplies - 20-40$
Plants - 50-200$
Leaf litter - 0-15$
Frogs - 30-300$
Lighting - 20 - 150$
Lid - 5$
Background supplies - 30-70$
Misting system - 3-300$
Stand - 20-150$
Thats 700-1300$ for a single tank, lol.

Reef tank (display)
100g aquarium - 100-300$
Substrate - 60$
Salt - 50$
Lighting - 200-1000$
Protein Skimmer - 150$
Hydrometer - 10$
Sump - 300-500$
Live rock 30lbs - 200$
Thermometer - 15$
Corals and sponges - 500$
Canister filter - 150-300$
Other stuff - 100$+
Fish and other cleaner uppers - 500$
2500$-3500$+
Those are estimated prices, but wow, it adds up.


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## Woodsman

I AM a rich man. "I am Elmer J. Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht" (Bugs Bunny classic).

Richard.


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## Pumilo

Woodsman said:


> I AM a rich man. "I am Elmer J. Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht" (Bugs Bunny classic).
> 
> Richard.


That's too funny. Do a DB search for Elmer Fudd and only two references to him were ever made on Dendroboard. Both on the same day!! I made the other one today. Funnier yet, I have frogs on the way to the only other person to use Elmer Fudd in a thread...Woodsman! http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/75325-orange-r-lamasi-2.html


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## Woodsman

Wow, that's pretty funny. I was absolutely sure that no one else had ever heard of Fudd (my nephews were big Sponge Bob and Rugrats fans). I guess great minds think alike!

Take care, Richard.



Pumilo said:


> That's too funny. Do a DB search for Elmer Fudd and only two references to him were ever made on Dendroboard. Both on the same day!! I made the other one today. Funnier yet, I have frogs on the way to the only other person to use Elmer Fudd in a thread...Woodsman! http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/75325-orange-r-lamasi-2.html


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## itsott

Unfortunately not many kids, and I use the term losely, have ever heard of fudd, marvin, tom and jerry or any of the other classics. That is crazy that out of two both were made in the same day. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk


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## ChrisK

There is NOTHING like those original Tom and Jerry clips


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## thedude

There's not a single Tom and Jerry or Looney Tunes episode I haven't seen, and I'm only 21. Some kids like 60's cartoons  Gotta love Bugs.


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## itsott

I have 6 vivs and frogs for most of them and havent hit the cost of my 40 gallon reef. But i still say the start up cost is more than the average person wants to spend.


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## JimO

I'm an old fart and watched them on TV every Saturday morning. But, I feel that it was my duty as a responsible parent to make sure all four of my sons (13 to 20 yo) have seen most of them. We have also gone through all five seasons of Get Smart.

But I digress. Back to the topic, it's just like anything else, you can spend very little and have a couple of simple vivs with frogs you might pay $20 apiece for or even less if you pick up tads locally, or you can spend $1,000 on a large obligate set up.

Here's the bargain hunter's guide to becoming a dart frogger:

29-gal aquarium with hood and light on Craig's list - $25
Old undergravel filter plate placed on pieces of PVC pipe cut to size - $5
Piece of window screen from the garage or neighbor - $0
6-ft of syphon hose to change out the water in the false bottom - $3
4 inches of leaf litter collected locally and boiled - $0.50 (electricity)
Cuttings of pothos or other common plants from friends - $0
Starter ff and spring cultures from a friend in exchange for cutting the grass - $0
FF culture containers from various jars that would otherwise be tossed - $0
Several auratus, leuc or tinc tads from a generous DB member - $0-$30
Alternatively, two or three froglets picked up locally - $60-$90

Total cost - $33.50 to $123.50

I've set up grow out tanks like this using extra reef tank equipment.

Also, there are a lot of generous folks on DB who have helped me and I believe in paying it forward, so if, for example, a college student strapped for cash has a passion for dart frogs, I'm sure we could help set them up.



thedude said:


> There's not a single Tom and Jerry or Looney Tunes episode I haven't seen, and I'm only 21. Some kids like 60's cartoons  Gotta love Bugs.


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## JimO

My favorte Bugs Bunny quote: "I know this defies the law of gravity, but eh, you see, I never studied law." This is also my favorite episode.


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## Julio

if you guys sit there and nalyze everything you spend on your hobby you will soon start to cry, i for one know i have spent well over 50k if not more since i been in it, but i been in it since 1992.


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## JimO

That's only a couple hundred bucks a month. Is that net spent or did you factor in what you've gotten in sales?

My goal is to simply break even from this point forward.



Julio said:


> if you guys sit there and nalyze everything you spend on your hobby you will soon start to cry, i for one know i have spent well over 50k if not more since i been in it, but i been in it since 1992.


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## Julio

all net, my point is, whatever you spend in this hobby, consider spent, and just think as though you will never see that money again, best way to acquire new frogs is to trade what you have for what you dont' have.


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## Ed

Julio has it right. If you are trying to maintain a net positive, then your not looking at it as a hobby... relax and enjoy it. I have the tv and radio off and am listening to frog calls in the background and I find it relaxing. 

Ed


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## thedude

I've never been in this for the money, but I've definitely made back all the money I've put in and then some. Not sure why others say you can't make profit, cause you definitely can.


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## poison beauties

Sure you can profit, I know friends who live off the income in this hobby. I have made plenty of money but it was through breeding frogs that I loved and it took plenty of time to get them and my skills up to par. 

The question is though why are you keeping the frogs, Id like to hear the answer from the so many new hobbyists who jump on here and ask for proven frogs before anything. Seems there is only one intent there. 

Michael


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## JimO

I keep them because of their incredible beauty and fascinating behaviors. I always attempt to breed them, but mainly because I like watching the obligates raise their tadpoles and because I find it very gratifying to raise the larger varieties from egg to froglet. I've given away a lot of stuff, including frogs, but I've managed to sell and trade enough that it hasn't cost me anything to get where I am now. Had it not been for that, I could have only afforded a couple of vivs, and certainly none of the pumilio morphs I currently have.



poison beauties said:


> Sure you can profit, I know friends who live off the income in this hobby. I have made plenty of money but it was through breeding frogs that I loved and it took plenty of time to get them and my skills up to par.
> 
> The question is though why are you keeping the frogs, Id like to hear the answer from the so many new hobbyists who jump on here and ask for proven frogs before anything. Seems there is only one intent there.
> 
> Michael


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## fieldnstream

poison beauties said:


> The question is though why are you keeping the frogs, Id like to hear the answer from the so many new hobbyists who jump on here and ask for proven frogs before anything. Seems there is only one intent there.


Other than getting into the hobby to make money, I think one reason they do this is because they believe it will give them some sort of prestige. They want to be respected right out of the gate and they think having a breeding group will make this happen...why they think this is beyond me. I feel like many new people are trying to avoid seeming like new people, trying to become automatic experts. I've never understood this mindset, but I know its prevalent. I have 23 frogs (not that many I know) but only 3 are adults. I think it is nonsensical to start out with breeding groups because you miss out on the experience of raising your first frogs. Yeah you have to wait longer to make any money back, but the experience gained is more than worth it. I've enjoyed every minute of raising my frogs and wouldn't change that for any perceived "expertise", especially unwarranted expertise.


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## poison beauties

True, and what we see are these people buying up provens, then asking question after question because they jumped beyond their skill set. Nothing wrong with rasing your breeding stock first, learning the behavior patterns on the frogs, sexing them and watching the courting first hand as well as territorial behavior. Most of this you mis out on when jumping to the provens as they are established pairs fo groups. Its not just this hobby though its every hobby where it applies. I would just like to see more people posting cb juvies than holding back to sell pairs for more. You guys all support some of the older vendors well they all didnt get the chance to walk in and buy up proven breeders. We all did it the hard way a decade ago or more.
You can fake experience, claim certain things but unless your using what you know to help teach the newer hobbyists whats it matter on becomming respected. Its a hobby, those who worry about what others think seem to be more business oriented. I recently got a message from someone telling me they got a wholesale list from Josh so they can start selling frogs on the boards and at shows in order to build credibility until his own frogs breed, I had to explain your not building anything but a business, credibility comes from the ones who do the work. Its a hobby, so why is there a rush.

Michael


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## frogparty

I dont think that theres anything wrong with buying proven pairs right out of the gate, especially since there are aggression issues with same sex individuals of several species. I dont think it automatically brands someone as attempting to go beyond their skill level, to me it just makes good sense. Adult frogs are also hardier than froglets, so theres another good reason for people to be buying adult frogs as their first frogs. The whole "prestige" thing is purely a result of internet chat boards and nothing more. You could never pretend to be an expert or experienced breeder to an actual expert, the community is really too small for that, and a quick face to face weeds out the bullshit rather fast. It is unfortunate that many inexperienced people make unfounded claims, and regurgitate dubious information...but its the internet, and that kind of behavior is unavoidable. 

I want to reiterate again that I think plants are the really expensdive part of this hobby. I just dropped 75 bucks on ebay for three broms without even batting an eye. And all three will end up on one BRANCH in a new viv Im building, and its not even that big of a viv. Add to that the $40 in broms I already have for it, and at least $150 worth of orchids, plus a few epiphytic ferns that thankfully I already have going so they are technically free, the plant price tag per viv really adds up for me. BUUUUT...thats pretty much just start up $ for the plants, because eventually I will get it all back from selling divisions. Can't keep those orchids from flying out the door fast enough when I actually have packages for sale, but thats because I collect the weird and crazy, and everything I offer has been vivarium tested to be a reliable grower and bloomer


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## poison beauties

Thats where we differ, how many people actually say they want proven frogs for the sake of them being hardier or past the territorial issues? Not one that I have ever seen and its always talk on breeding now, not later. You have a point but most new hobbyist wont get the frogs that are of the most trouble with issues and getting them proven is pricey, as well as most breeders know what they are doing with selling and wouldnt respond to a new hobbyists ad wanting them. Ive actually answered want ads with info on where people can get the frogs they seek as probables or late juvies way cheaper and the answer is always based on breeding time.

Plants can be a bitch if your picky, I have a few wholesale deals so I get enough broms to hand out at 2 bucks or less and trade for plants I need. One of my biggest buys is always going to be the power bill, and the racks as I have 10 of the 60x30x60 with a couple extra shelves per so its probably north of 4k to hold all my bugs, plants and vivs in place.


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## frogparty

Oh if only I was satisfied with plants I could get wholesale....but I love the weird and hard to find, so I seem to be cursed to buy mine one at a time. 
I know what you're saying about people wanting to jump right in to breeding frogs, so they buy proven pairs instead of cheaper froglets... but I see this as unavoidable in the critter hobby, be it snakes, frogs or spiders. People are always going to want to see a return on their money, and quick turnaround time between purchase and sale of offspring appeals to that mindset. Not everyone in the hobby has this mindset, but again I see it as being just as unavoidable as the "pokemon complex" where people have more $ than sense and rush to buy up as many animals as they can, before they realize that they don't have the info or experience to maintain such a large collection


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## poison beauties

frogparty said:


> Oh if only I was satisfied with plants I could get wholesale....but I love the weird and hard to find, so I seem to be cursed to buy mine one at a time.


Of course, I use the wholesale broms to trade for exotic cuttings though. Most of what I want I end up paying 30-40 bucks to have shipped from a friend in Thailand. Then some of it you can find on ebay or through a guy of two in HI and FL.

Michael


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## jbherpin

My wife and I were talking about this($ in the hobby) last night(semi hostile-lol), and we came to the realization that even our boxing/fitness hobby has cost 3x as much, and taken more room in our home! We have a Bow-flex Platinum, a "Boxer's Station" and a thousand accessory units like dumb-bells, and various other "free-weights".

In fact, our workout room doubles as a frog room... So sad... 

JBear


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## JimO

We keep a few hens for fresh eggs. I shouldn't have, but I figured out that we spend probably twice as much on those eggs as store-bought eggs. Yeah, they're fresh and don't have any hormones and all, but when you get right down to it, we just really like having chickens. It's theraputic watching them scratch around and dust.

For me, it's theraputic to put my reading glasses on every night and sit real close to one of my vivs and get a good look at the frogs. They truly are incredible little creatures.


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## Pumilo

JimO said:


> For me, it's theraputic to put my reading glasses on every night and sit real close to one of my vivs and get a good look at the frogs.


That's a good thing, Jim. I gather you need a lot of therapy!


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## dartsanddragons

I started keeping Darts nearly twelve years ago, like most of you who have been around for a while I started with a couple of Froglets, raised them up gaining knowledge along the way, after a short time I aquired another Froglet or two or ten...soon enough some of those Frogs were breeding, I would trade/sell the offspring to aquire Frogs/Supplies and it just continued in that direction to the point when I had Sixty +/- Terrariums and God knows how many Frogs/Froglets/Tads. To this day I still buy/trade for Froglets and raise them up and keep a pair or two and trade the others for Frogs/Froglets of interest. I have purchased pairs both sexed as well as proven with mixed results...some sexed pairs will readily breed and some proven pairs will not..you have to invest the time and money into this hobby to get out of it what you want...if it's just money you won't last long..if you have the passion for the Frogs you keep you will be able to maintain your collection and make a buck or two. I know several of the larger Breeders and don't be fooled into thinking they are making money hand over fist...they spend a lot of time and money to bring new things to the Hobby...they will make some money in the process but like most of us a lot of it goe's back into maintaining the collections they keep. It's far from a rich man's hobby but once you get started you need to take a slow and steady approach and it just keeps getting cheaper...one example..I purchased a 2.2?? of sexed Vanzo's after several months of getting them settled in they started breeding I paid 420.00"a great deal" they have given me nearly twenty Tads that I plan on trading/selling down the road to support my collection. So that being said if you are patient you can buy Froglets/sexed pairs/proven pairs or juvies and stay within a reasonable budget this hobby pay's for itself...just my .02



Scott


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## David Becher

Every Hobby is only as expensive as you make it, there may be exceptions though. It all depends on how nice and unique you want your tank to look, and how much patience you have. I mean, you could buy a trio of tinc cobalt froglets, most likely end up with a pair, buy a 20 gallon long tank from a garage sale. Go to lowes, spend about 10 dollars on cheap plants like pothos if your grandma does not have any lying around, and collect some rocks to use as drainage from outside. Buy a flourescent shop light, or ask a few friends they will most likely have one sitting in the garage. so your still under the $300 dollar mark. On the other hand, you could buy a sexed 1.2 trio of el drago colons for 600 dollars, custom build a 30x30x48 tank, with led lights, a mist king, and rare plants. you can surpass the 1 grand mark pretty easily. reef tanks are the same way.


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## love_chariot

Non-living things hobbies can be as expensive as you want i.e. shoes, art, toys, electronics. When it comes to living things though there is a bottom line start up cost to keep them alive. With frogs you can use gravel for substrate, find local cheap tropicals, find inexpensive breeds and a shop light and hand mist. That doesn't work with a reef tank, salt water maybe, but reef no. Unless you live in Hawaii or pacific coast getting these things cannot be done in your back yard. Here is my comparison.

Exoterra 18x18x24 with plants and lights (279)
A few Extras (30)
3 Leucs (150)
Flies and Media (75)

Reef
24 gallon Nano cube (275)
Live Sand, Chemicals and tests (108)
Live Rock 16 lbs (80.00)
Cleaner Crew (46.00)
Clown Fish and a goby (60.00)
Corals (your choice but look at spending 25-40$ a piece) (40-???)

Corals need live rock and a water supply with micro organisms that you couldn't foster on aquarium gravel. Without a cleaning crew or the correct chemicals your tank would go bad in a week or two. This isn't even to mention the time/cost of water changes every week or two. Some folks who live on the coast will say they can get the reef stuff cheaper, which is true, when I lived in SoCal I got amazing deals on the stuff, but for everyone else reefing will be far more expensive for a basic set up and keep everything alive and happy.


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## JimO

Yes I do, but I'm just glad I'm not sitting around playing with tie-died feathers and braiding my hair with them .



Pumilo said:


> That's a good thing, Jim. I gather you need a lot of therapy!


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## Pumilo

JimO said:


> Yes I do, but I'm just glad I'm not sitting around playing with tie-died feathers and braiding my hair with them .


Oh that's cold, man. You fight dirty!


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## JimO

At my age, all fights are dirty... But, I understand that you're laughing all the way to the bank.



Pumilo said:


> Oh that's cold, man. You fight dirty!


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## Pumilo

JimO said:


> At my age, all fights are dirty... But, I understand that you're laughing all the way to the bank.


Jim, this last round on eBay I'm afraid I never even made it to the bank...but Tuckinrim8 made it to the ski slopes! 6 Southern Variabilis and 4 retics! You know what the say, "Frogs of a feather, hop together!"


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## poison beauties

Nice additions Doug, retics are absolutely a great frog to keep as a display and breed. 

Michael


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## Pumilo

poison beauties said:


> Nice additions Doug, retics are absolutely a great frog to keep as a display and breed.
> 
> Michael


Thanks Michael, it's my first time keeping both of these species. How's this for an addition to the "Rich Man's Hobby" thread? I was just given 4, 40 gallon, 22.5" x 17" x 24" tall, sliding front door Euro vivs. The bottom glass was broken in shipping. I just happen to know a glass guy that can pop some new bottoms on pretty easily! I was also given a 70ish gallon Euro corner display, 24" x 24" x 36" tall. Cracked bottom there, too. The Retics will get a 40 and the Southerns will get the corner display. Wait till you guys see what I'm planning with the corner display!
Now if I could only find some Isopods for them...


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## curlykid

i just bought my misting system, viv, lights, substrate, and wood...boy, shipping is a steal!!!


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## poison beauties

Pumilo said:


> Thanks Michael, it's my first time keeping both of these species. How's this for an addition to the "Rich Man's Hobby" thread? I was just given 4, 40 gallon, 22.5" x 17" x 24" tall, sliding front door Euro vivs. The bottom glass was broken in shipping. I just happen to know a glass guy that can pop some new bottoms on pretty easily! I was also given a 70ish gallon Euro corner display, 24" x 24" x 36" tall. Cracked bottom there, too. The Retics will get a 40 and the Southerns will get the corner display. Wait till you guys see what I'm planning with the corner display!
> Now if I could only find some Isopods for them...


Corners make a great way to go crazy, wood from wall to wall and other things you cant normally do. crazy about the bottoms of the vivs breaking. I think we need to master or create some type of bracing or go thicker with the glass.

I sure hope the ISo bit was a joke..........I was going to message you about a new idea for them with cutluring.
Michael


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## Pumilo

poison beauties said:


> Corners make a great way to go crazy, wood from wall to wall and other things you cant normally do. crazy about the bottoms of the vivs breaking. I think we need to master or create some type of bracing or go thicker with the glass.
> 
> I sure hope the ISo bit was a joke..........I was going to message you about a new idea for them with cutluring.
> Michael


I just got a big box of Ghost wood in, today. I'm waiting for Maryland to get me a big box of flats and a big box of small diameter tubes.

Oh, yes, the iso bit was a joke. I'm swimming in them.


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## Frank H

*Re: "not-so-Rich Man's Hobby"*

Like mentioned already, you make it as expensive as you want.

I have some expensive vivariums, and some very inexpensive vivariums as well. 


Defending my love, RC:



Pumilo said:


> Getting serious about RC cars can rival the expense of Reefing. If you are racing your battery packs run $80 plus each. You need 4 for a race day as you can only charge a race pack once a day. Practice before the race is a necessity. There's 4 more packs. $100 to $300 for a decent charger. And that's only the batteries! Max and I just play in the field with ours now. Haven't been able to afford racing since I had kids!





bsr8129 said:


> There's your problem, electric, go nitro and you dont have to worry about all those batteries and chanrgers. Just Fuel and go.......


I beg to differ bsr, You have to keep buying nitro to keep running. Brushless motors last and last, unlike a nitro engine that will wear out and need rebuild or replace after 4-10 gallons of nitro ($120-300). 

Like the frog hobby, in racing RC you can get away with spending much less than the rich guys and still be competitive. You can buy $32 batteries (and Lipo batteries can be charged right after discharge and are not like the old NIMH batteries that only liked to be charged once a day, but ya a few extra are nice to have), $40 charger, $100 motor/esc's, $35 transmitter/receiver's, and still be competitive and have a long lasting setup. I have a buddy that intentionally runs gear that is deemed backyard quality and has no place on the track, and podiums more often than he doesn't. He encourages others to get into racing without spending a ton, and has a big following because of it. He encourages setting up your backyard basher for racing instead of buying a new race rig. 

I am a construction worker and usually get around 30 hours a week if Im lucky. I race RC, have 2 young boys one who races rc as well, and still have a few bucks left for my frogs. 

Its all worth it in the end. After all the necessities are taken care of (rent,clothes,food,etc..) Id rather spend money in my hobbies than a night out on the town. A night out for me is few and far between. My awesome wife puts up with it too. She actually likes going to the track with me and hanging out as a family. The RC community around here is a bunch of friendly people. I wish she'd go to a local frog meeting (SCADS) with me and meet the nice people involved here and see some of the bigger collections. She might think I'm less crazy.


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## Mer_

This is definitely not a rich man's hobby. I mean I got into it and I am a poor/broke college student, emphasis on broke. It was expensive at first but its gotten better. It is still a bit expensive because I haven't mastered fruit flies as well as I should and because I love to buy plants that will outgrow my vivs and therefore have to replace them.

I love my frogs, even if my friends think i'm "a bio nerd."


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## JimO

Gorgeous frogs, but I am deeply wounded seeing as I have had plenty of variabilis to offer. They will breed like rabbits. Make sure to take it easy on the broms and offer film canisters. It'll make egg retrieval much easier.



Pumilo said:


> Jim, this last round on eBay I'm afraid I never even made it to the bank...but Tuckinrim8 made it to the ski slopes! 6 Southern Variabilis and 4 retics! You know what the say, "Frogs of a feather, hop together!"


----------



## Pumilo

JimO said:


> Gorgeous frogs, but I am deeply wounded seeing as I have had plenty of variabilis to offer. They will breed like rabbits. Make sure to take it easy on the broms and offer film canisters. It'll make egg retrieval much easier.


Sorry Jim, but they had to be Southerns. She's got legs! She know's how to use them! I just love those blue legs.
I don't use broms in any of my thumbnail vivs for just that reason. I may put some broms in my Benny viv as I've heard it may make them bolder.


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## J Teezy

i agree the initial startup is where the cost is I'm new to the hobby, and the reason i got into it was because i like the frogs and vivarium as something to look at and watch. I don't have television so my entertainment at home is internet, video games, and watching the frogs and taking care of them. The aspect i really enjoy is building my own backgrounds.

Breakdown of my first tank setup

used 10 gallon tank $6
supplies to covert it to a vertical less than $10 (glass was free only paid for window screen frame and corner pieces, acrylic hinge and hasp, silicone)
Eggcrate for false bottom $13 which gave me enough to use for my 29 gallon i'm building as well
Glass drill bits to drill for drain and mist nozzle cost of gas to drive to a friends house
Hygrometer / thermometer $20
Light $20
Stand $10 (build mostly from scrap wood)
mistking $170 (most expesive purchase and well worth it)
FF culturing kit with 2 cultures already going $55
Substrate and leaf litter $15
2 leuc froglets $90
Plants $15
Material to make background $10

Enjoyment i got from building the viv and watching and raising my little froglets PRICELESS

only reoccuring price at the moment is a couple gallons of distilled water every so often to fill the mist bucket.

I really enjoy the DIY aspect of the hobby of building the Viv. Getting to raise and watch the frogs is a bonus. I get enjoyment out of telling my friends that i built the setup myself and them telling me how good it looks.

I had a 55 gallon cichlid tank a few years ago, and it was more expensive and pain in the butt to keep up with than a dart frog viv is and i find the frogs more interesting than fish by a lot.


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## that Frog Guy

Yeah Saltwater Reefing is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more expensive. Corals that are the size of Quarters that are 50.00 to 1,000 a piece and you have to fill up a Huge Aquarium with these Quarter Frags adds up very quickly. Then most of them die on you anyways. I have not lost a Frog yet.


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## andya26

So, I am from Minnesota and I don't know how many members of this board know anything about hockey but it is far more expensive that the frog hobby. 

I played hockey my entire life up until a few years ago. Back in my day (I say this because it has gotten even more expensive since, no joke) I went through 2-4 hockey sticks in just the regular season (October thru March) and back then the sticks were $150-$200 for a quality stick. Not to mention the skates ranging from $300-$500 a pair, luckily those would last 2-3 seasons once you stop growing. Then the small expenses that get forgotten, skate sharpening once a week at $4 per. Hockey tape at $3-$4 per roll, usually about 2 rolls per week. Those expenses are after all of the other equipment has been obtained, but I think at this juncture the point is clear. 
____________________

I started with my first trio of frogs in May (Bakhuis Tincs), I bought an exo-terra tank mostly because I could afford it, some plants, some wood, substrate, silicone, and great stuff. Since then the only upkeep is feeding and distilled water. 

Just as everyone has stated in this thread, this hobby is as expensive as you want it to be. Plants and the fancy accessories can add up, but it can also be limited. Most of all it is fun, every time somebody visits my apartment that has not been here, they see the frogs and they are amazed. Even my dad, it's like they are his grandchildren, every time he visits the first thing he does is visits the viv to see the frogs. They are unique animals that not every person gets to see on a regular basis, that is what I enjoy most about the hobby.


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## Brian317

^I agree with alot said above me. 

I have another expensive hobby which is Paintball. $60ish for a case of paint, markers that range from $100-$1400, pads, jerseys, cleats, masks, barrels....on top of tournament fees/travel/ect all add up to make it a very expensive hobby, but one I love and will never stop playing. I've developed relationships with alot of the local fields and companies, so it does not hurt my wallet as bad as it used too, but the frogging hobby...price wise....is not as bad as other hobbies out there. This hobby is as expensive as you want it to be!


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## ghostpilot

My other hobby for years was fixing up vehicles. Dart frogs, plants, and vivariums compare nothing to twin turbos, nitrous, suspension components, or even a set of good wheels. I stepped out of that hobby in '08, but dang I love fast cars and trucks.  All my car buddies always ask how I went from racing to frogs.


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## erik775

thedude said:


> One of the cheapest pet hobbies I've ever heard of. Snake, lizard, bird, and turtle hobbies are way more expensive.
> 
> Ever seen the average amount someone spends on one dog? It makes me want a dog a bit less


oh man dogs are sooo expensive...and when specialey when you dog is picky with his dog food...omg it sucks...nothing but evo...


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## andya26

erik775 said:


> oh man dogs are sooo expensive...and when specialey when you dog is picky with his dog food...omg it sucks...nothing but evo...


My brother has a dog that has/had separation anxiety. Every time my brother left his apartment the dog would scratch at the door and put a hole in the wall next to the door and even urinate on the door. 

That gets to be spendy in an apartment especially, luckily the dog is broken of the habit for the most part to this point. 

Stories like that make me second guess getting a dog.


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## XxExoticPsychExX

Parrots will tear holes in your pockets both literally and figuratively! I spend about $500 a year taking my African Grey to a vet just for a check up. I spend even more on buying and making him toys that he'll probably shred into pieces within 5 minutes to 48 hours (so I need many). Have you seen how expensive large bird toys can be?!? Then I have to rotate the toys so he doesn't get bored and start shredding the newspaper that I change everyday at the bottom of his cage (I'll throw in a picture of a mess he made in 2 hours later today). He'll toss food from his bowl when he wants attention. I have to watch him like a hawk when he's out of his cage because he'll chew on anything and everything. I've gotten my shirts, purses, bed, blankets, phone chargers, furniture and much more chewed on. At least I have a valid reason for going out and getting a new wardrobe more often! Thank God he no longer bites the crap outta me so I don't have to worry about him breaking any bones. The previous owner needed to have surgery cuz Solomon (yup, my parrot's name) really chomped on his upper lip one day. Although, he does like ears. . .

All this just so I can be rewarded with his trust in letting me handle him without getting my fingers bitten off. 

The cost of frogs doesn't come close in the long run. Parrots are for life!


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## Ed

erik775 said:


> oh man dogs are sooo expensive...and when specialey when you dog is picky with his dog food...omg it sucks...nothing but evo...


Dogs unlike cats won't starve themselves to death...... 

Ed


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## Ed

XxExoticPsychExX said:


> Parrots will tear holes in your pockets both literally and figuratively! I spend about $500 a year taking my African Grey to a vet just for a check up. I spend even more on buying and making him toys that he'll probably shred into pieces within 5 minutes to 48 hours (so I need many). Have you seen how expensive large bird toys can be?!? Then I have to rotate the toys so he doesn't get bored and start shredding the newspaper that I change everyday at the bottom of his cage (I'll throw in a picture of a mess he made in 2 hours later today). He'll toss food from his bowl when he wants attention. I have to watch him like a hawk when he's out of his cage because he'll chew on anything and everything. I've gotten my shirts, purses, bed, blankets, phone chargers, furniture and much more chewed on. At least I have a valid reason for going out and getting a new wardrobe more often! Thank God he no longer bites the crap outta me so I don't have to worry about him breaking any bones. The previous owner needed to have surgery cuz Solomon (yup, my parrot's name) really chomped on his upper lip one day. Although, he does like ears. . .
> 
> All this just so I can be rewarded with his trust in letting me handle him without getting my fingers bitten off.
> 
> The cost of frogs doesn't come close in the long run. Parrots are for life!


When I worked at a pet store that had several large parrots (cockatoos and macaws) for store pets, they were very handlable but you had to watch them carefully as people with rings on thier fingers were a favorite target. They would gently mouth a ring to see if it had a stone in a setting and if it did, they would deform the ring popping the stone out and mouth the stone.... They didn't hurt anyone (although they would threaten any attempt to retrieve the stone) but they did deform some rings enough that they couldn't be slid back off the finger.... 

Ed


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## XxExoticPsychExX

Ed said:


> When I worked at a pet store that had several large parrots (cockatoos and macaws) for store pets, they were very handlable but you had to watch them carefully as people with rings on thier fingers were a favorite target. They would gently mouth a ring to see if it had a stone in a setting and if it did, they would deform the ring popping the stone out and mouth the stone.... They didn't hurt anyone (although they would threaten any attempt to retrieve the stone) but they did deform some rings enough that they couldn't be slid back off the finger....


Lol! My childhood parrot would do that and so does my cousin's sun conure. Neither were strong enough to deform rings, but they did pop out stones and ruin the settings. I'm sure if I gave Solomon the chance, he'd do the same.

It took me about a year to get him to change his behavior. His previous owners (who had him for 15 years) didn't socialize him and just kept him in a cage ever since he chomped on the husband's upper lip. No one was able to handle him, but he did like the occasional scratch on the head from the father and son.


As mentioned earlier, the mess he made in 2 hours:










And here's the culprit!


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## Frog Tropics

Like all hobbies, this one can vary in initial set-up and ongoing costs according to the proclivities and inclinations of the individual hobbyist. That said, initial set-up costs aside, the ongoing costs are minimal (barring insect crashes which can be a bit of a financial setback for the hobbyist with a large collection). The awesome thing about this hobby, aside from the frogs, is that the people are great. Oftentimes you can trade for desired species and/or work out a deal (many breeders are willing to deal/not all). Our store routinely gets requests for deals (if we buy 3, can we get a 4th free, etc, etc) and most reasonable requests are honored. You don't see that in the saltwater hobby or the avian hobby (we have a toucan and a mynah bird, both of which we would have gladly traded for as they were not cheap). In terms of ongoing costs, well, the frogs get fruit flies, pods, bean beetles and springs; the mynah bird has his own exotic fruit of the month club membership.... True story. They only eat fruit/pellets and we can't grow dragon fruit in Seattle


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## kichimark

I am pretty much new to this but in comparison to my other hobbies...this is the cheapest. 

My "rich man's" hobby:


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## SmallScaleDan

kichimark said:


> I am pretty much new to this but in comparison to my other hobbies...this is the cheapest.
> 
> My "rich man's" hobby:


No kidding! Reef tanks will put you in the poor house. I like your little frag platform. frags are the worst thing about the reef hobby. They make me think I can make a bunch of frags and the hobby will pay for itself. LOL. It keeps me buying more and more and more. 

Dan


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## kichimark

Sounds like a reefer Dan . Yeah the frags can be an issue for new people. Problem is that back in the day frags were not a tiny polyp on a plug and people didn't name corals to charge top dollar. I frag when I clean my tank and by accident knock off a piece of SPS (my red planet is in a real bad spot ) or when my zoas are overgrowing. I mostly trade them with other reefers at meetings or they come by. Made a mistake once on trading for credit at a coral store...never again on that. I only got a couple of Leucs that I recently got at a reptile show and with the vert kit vivarium it come out cheap compared to the reef.

Here is a couple new additions since the last pic was taken Dan:


















Looking around here I must say I enjoy it. People seem very decent and the hybrids are shunned which is great since its what always bothered me with the reptile hobby (i.e. king x milk x whoknows).


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## soulis

was reading this all and just was thinking that reefkeeping is way more money then we spend on frogs.. food alone


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## CCLAXX

Coming form someone who i just getting started in this hobby.... i isn't that costly if you listen to some of the vets and do it right the first time. When i finally got my viv planted and up and running i was the happiest person alive!!! And i don't even have any frogs!


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## pdfDMD

SmallScaleDan said:


> No kidding! Reef tanks will put you in the poor house...


So true. Many moons ago when I was in high school I worked in a saltwater aquarium store that also did maintenance. Half of the customers were either rich, middle-aged men, CEO's, or business owners that wanted to entertain their waiting rooms or lobbies. The other half was a good cross-section of society that kept a smallish tank or floundered and got out after drowning several paychecks. It boggled my mind how much money you could, or needed, to throw at that hobby.


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## lo)2enz0

I'm jumping in on the whole this hobby is nothing like SW. It used to cost me $50 to set up a basic DF tank. A salt water tank.... that will get you a bucket of salt HAHAHA. So happy I am basically out of that hobby but my biocube 14 that I still have has still managed to cost me $1000 so far. well heres my old money pit


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## Tadbit

Expensive? On the front end I’d say yes, especially if you get some automation. I was doing a little mental math, and frogs aside with my start up of 4 18x18x24 Exos, several grow out 5 gallons, wire racks, lights, bulbs, fans, fan controllers, ABG substrate, quarantine deli containers, FF Deli cups, start up FF cultures, plants, silicone, Mist King system, Great Stuff, Turface, PVC, glass drill bits, bulkheads, foam board, Quickcrete mix, FF media, supplements, noseeum mesh, screen for the eggcrate, eggcrate, cut glass for the tops of the vivs, 45 x 57 Ecoweb sheet, and other miscellaneous items that quickly add up. This is just things right off the top of my head. I know I’m missing stuff. 

Without a doubt I’ve easily spent over $1,000 starting up with equipment alone. No wonder I’ve only been able to afford one morph! lol Actually I still wouldn’t change anything. Once I get things all setup I know it wont be as bad, and I can focus on my frogs.

BTW thanks for the reef pictures! I love looking at those but hearing about the high cost and extreme high maintenance requirements has always scared me away.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Ya know what's a rich mans hobby? Flying. These days a single engine plane probably starts at around 200K.


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## frogfreak

There's no possible way this can be a "Rich Man's Hobby" cause I'm in it...


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## NM Crawler

This hobby has to be on of the least expensive hobbys I've been in hands Down. Yes the start up is costly if you do all your Vivs @ once as I'm learning now. I also have a hunting/firearm adiction that has to be my most expensive hobby to date. My Offroad jeep addiction hobby has to be most expensive up front money hobby to date. In axles alone I'm in over 12k! To tell you the truth watching the frogs do there thing is priceless!


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## outofreach

Sport fishing probably wins or close......

Many many rods and reels--- 20k+
$1000's a day for fuel
Couple hundred G's to millions for boat
Couple G's a month just to slip it, diver, cleaning, insurance........


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## frogmanroth

Dart frogs for the most part? Poor mans hobby Frogs for $15 $20 each?


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## FoxHound

Yeah if you just decide one day to make a frog room and stock it with breeding pairs then sure crazy expensive hobby though the same can be said about any hobby. I also target shoot and I didn't start out with top of the line assault rifles with armor piercing rounds and exploding targets. 

If you do it right you can make it work on almost any budget and it also doesn't hurt to make some friends and get some deals rolling just like any other area of finance. If you collect cars you may want to befriend another collector to learn the pitfalls and avoid them as possible. 

Darts are the most enjoyable pet/hobby dollar per dollar I have ever had. I also change hobbies like the wind changes direction but this one seemed to stick on me.


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## dylanserbin

FoxHound said:


> Darts are the most enjoyable pet/hobby dollar per dollar I have ever had. I also change hobbies like the wind changes direction but this one seemed to stick on me.


Same here man. Any one of my friends will tell you that I get bored of hobbies easliy. This one though.. keeps me comin back.


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## thedude

outofreach said:


> Sport fishing probably wins or close......
> 
> Many many rods and reels--- 20k+
> $1000's a day for fuel
> Couple hundred G's to millions for boat
> Couple G's a month just to slip it, diver, cleaning, insurance........


Wow I am going to be so much more grateful the next time I'm charter boat fishing...


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## outofreach

thedude said:


> Wow I am going to be so much more grateful the next time I'm charter boat fishing...



Big time, cheaper to go on a charter boat then buy a boat.....

Best case find a friend with a boat


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## MosquitoCoast

fieldnstream said:


> In my experience, one thing that keeps the hobby from being too expensive is the generosity of more experienced froggers/breeders. Whether that means giving free tads, selling frogs at about 30% of their value, or going above and beyond what has been asked for in a trade, this hobby is full of people who love to help others. If I had paid "full-price" for my frogs my collection would be much smaller. I try to pay this forward (cliche I know) by giving new froggers deals on bugs, supplies, plants, frogs, etc... and I think that is key to keeping the hobby accessible to people of all means.


I agree with you.

Last September I took advantage of a sale by PatEmig09 and was able to get 5 D. azureus froglets for $86.00. Most online businesses sell them for $49.00-$59.00. I would never had been able to buy that many at full price. Even when some people advertise them on Dendroboard for $25.00/$30.00 it's still a good price.

Thanks PatEmig09!!!


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## kitcolebay

fieldnstream said:


> In my experience, one thing that keeps the hobby from being too expensive is the generosity of more experienced froggers/breeders. Whether that means giving free tads, selling frogs at about 30% of their value, or going above and beyond what has been asked for in a trade, this hobby is full of people who love to help others. If I had paid "full-price" for my frogs my collection would be much smaller. I try to pay this forward (cliche I know) by giving new froggers deals on bugs, supplies, plants, frogs, etc... and I think that is key to keeping the hobby accessible to people of all means.


I'll definitely agree with this too! From my little experience, I've been extremely thankful for the kind and generous people in this hobby. I've met some terrific people on here, at FrogDay, and locally through IDS(Indiana Dendrobatid Society). I've been offered free and/or discounted plants, supplies, tads, feeder insects, support, and information. Yes, I too, would be honored to help "pay it forward" as opportunities allow.
Thanks again to this wonderful community. It definitely makes the hobby much more affordable and tremendously more enjoyable.

Thanks, Chris


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## MrBiggs

poison beauties said:


> Its too bad that most look at this hobby as a source of income before even getting thier first darts, why else would there be so much push by new hobbyists for proven only frogs.


It's true! It's equally if not more true in the photography hobby. Amateurs who've never owned anything except a P&S buy a cheapie dSLR with a kit lens and all of a sudden call themselves professionals. Craziness.

But photography can definitely be a rich man's hobby. I own a photography studio and I'll show up to a wedding and see guests who have kits that rival mine. I mean, just to cover the range of 16mm to 200mm at f/2.8 with a decent body is a good $9-10k, easy. That's not even counting having any f/1.4 primes, macro lenses, or more niche items like T/S's and whatnot and it's not counting accessories like flashes, tripods, etc.

It's EASY to spend $20k on photography and still not have everything you want.


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## JonRich

So yea, I dragrace! #MoneyPit
I have built a few cars over the years. I have recently taken a break from owning a money pit and now will be driving the shop car of my sponsor for this season! I stopped keeping track of how much $ was spent over the years! 
My street car, made 620whp










































My race car. Made 837whp


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## Peter Keane

mordoria said:


> No way. This is one of the cheapest hobbies Ive ever had. Other hobbies such as R/C cars, card games (magic, pokemon), and even sports, cost way more then the frogging. A typical sports package for TV and even tickets can cost more than $50 a pop. I know people who can spend more then $100 a week on booze and other vices.
> After initial expenses, it costs me nothing more then Repashy Icb and a light bill. Theres the ocasional 5$ here and there but other than that, costs are low.
> Now, that does not mean that one could splurge a bit, here and there. Mist kings, exo terras, Solartes, it can add up if you let it.
> 
> Also I think that in the "olden days" of frogging, things were more costly. Im not sure though, Ed said he used to get BJ pumilios for $16!!!!!!!


True... back in the late 70's early 80's blue jean pumilio were abundant and available on Pet Farm, Miami, FL and Crutchfield's lists for around that price and WC Cobalt tincs.. (huge ones) were like $25. I got some 'bullseye', 'red-headed', and other morphs of histrionicus for as low as $11 each. ANd of course my very first frog ever, my red/black lehmanni for a whopping $12.99 (in 1975)... (took me a week and a half allowance to save up enough for this frog) from a local pet store. Later years, I got a call from a 'Fish' guy who asked if I can take some 'arrow frogs' off his hands as he did not know what to do with them. He described them as orange and blue and bumps on the back. Yes, these were granifuleris, four of them for a total of $10 (found out he got them free from the fish exporter). On the other hand, In 1988, at the first ISSD symposium, the first importation (for the hobby) of Azureus came in from Holland and they went for ~ $200-$250 per frog (I was working by then, lol). Nowadays, the azureus are abundant and much less expensive and the others I mentioned previously are now through the roof in price. So, it can be a hobby on a budget (whatever you want that budget to be) or extremely costly. 

Peter Keane


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## kitcolebay

Thank you Mr. Keane for sharing your story! Very interesting!

-Chris


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## whitethumb

great story, thank you for sharing. did you have any success with your red/black lehmanni? that is truly a dream frog!



Peter Keane said:


> True... back in the late 70's early 80's blue jean pumilio were abundant and available on Pet Farm, Miami, FL and Crutchfield's lists for around that price and WC Cobalt tincs.. (huge ones) were like $25. I got some 'bullseye', 'red-headed', and other morphs of histrionicus for as low as $11 each. ANd of course my very first frog ever, my red/black lehmanni for a whopping $12.99 (in 1975)... (took me a week and a half allowance to save up enough for this frog) from a local pet store. Later years, I got a call from a 'Fish' guy who asked if I can take some 'arrow frogs' off his hands as he did not know what to do with them. He described them as orange and blue and bumps on the back. Yes, these were granifuleris, four of them for a total of $10 (found out he got them free from the fish exporter). On the other hand, In 1988, at the first ISSD symposium, the first importation (for the hobby) of Azureus came in from Holland and they went for ~ $200-$250 per frog (I was working by then, lol). Nowadays, the azureus are abundant and much less expensive and the others I mentioned previously are now through the roof in price. So, it can be a hobby on a budget (whatever you want that budget to be) or extremely costly.
> 
> Peter Keane


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## mankc

varanoid said:


> Reef tanks are way more expensive in terms of initial setup costs, livestock costs when you take into account fish corals inverts janitors, and electrical monthly cost. Reefing is more a "rich mans hobby" than dart frogs easily.


I totally agree! I lost thousands due to a tank crash


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## Tony83

I was amazed at how cheap the frog hobby was when I started. I also drag race and keep a 300 gallon reef tank so the frogs are a welcomed change.


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## senditdonkey

Not a rich mans hobby, a very inexpensive hobby I would say.

A average 10 year old could get started with a little ingenuity and some saved allowance.


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## epiphytes etc.

I spend more on gardening than frog stuff in a year.


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## MarkB

The frog hobby seems considerably cheaper than my other hobby - snakes. I feed 16 boas weekly. It costs me around $40 per week on rats. I do however have considerably less frogs than snakes but it is pennies on the dollar in comparison.


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## VicSkimmr

I have less money tied up in my 180 gallon vivarium than I do in my set of european bumpers on my Mercedes. I have less money tied up in my vivarium than I do in my camera body, not even taking into account any lenses I own.

It's a pretty cheap hobby in the grand scheme of things, but it's still expensive compared to a lot other things.


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## Elphaba

This is a cheap hobby for me since most of what I'm interested in is plants (and I don't do the orchids, happily enough for my wallet). Don't get me wrong, there are a few frogs I'd like that are on the more expensive side -- blue-footed Leucs, True Sips, etc. -- but that's a one-time "big" expenditure for creatures I'm going to enjoy for years and years without having to invest much more money. Wish I could say the same for my dog... every time I take him to the vet, I drop over $150. And then there's monthly flea/tick medication (though that's gone down since I started using DE on him), heartworm preventative, treats, food...

But we're talking hobbies, sorry. This one definitely doesn't hurt my wallet too badly. =) I don't think it necessarily has to be expensive to anyone, supply-wise, if a person is willing to scavenge for resources and make connections. For example, adding plants to my collection here and there is easy and inexpensive thanks to lots of generous people in this hobby -- don't know about y'all, but every time I order plants from someone on this site, sponsor or not, I get more than what I paid for. I was terrified of paying for lighting, but scouring Craigslist helped me out with that. Making FF cultures is easy when your girlfriend goes through tons of jars of pasta sauce. The guy behind the film counter at Walgreen's gave me a plastic bag full of film canisters when I asked if he had any he didn't need anymore. Local hobbyists are great resources for varying up feeders (thank you, Kris). I scraped a ton of moss off someone's back patio a few Saturdays ago. So I had to get up early on my day off to do it. So what? After cleaning, the moss looks excellent!

This isn't a rich man's hobby, in my consideration. It's a resourceful man's (or woman's, in my case) hobby, and I love every minute of it.

Best,
Ash

PS -- Want an expensive hobby? Tinkering with bicycles. Sheesh...


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## Blk

what one may think is "expensive" may not be the same as another's view. However, I do know that I spent way more money than I had anticipated on frog stuff.

Although, my other obsession is dogs...and they are expensive!


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## frogparty

My buddy spent three thousand EACH on his Tibetan Mastiffs.......the food and home repair from said dogs cost a lot more. 

I spend more on a monthly basis on wine and booze than I spend on my frogging hobby, but Im pretty limited in my scope now. Only 4 species in house with plans for only a few more. So, in the grand scheme of things it really isnt that expensive for me. PLUS I get a lot more enjoyment out of them now that they arent in the frogroom and are instead in my living room/ bedroom where I always can see their hijinks. 

Flies are cheap. I have a big enough bromeliad collection that I just take pups off for what I need, and I have been VERY good as of late of avoiding Andys orchids.....so my frogging has been substantially cheaper than it used to be while I was accumulating all the mother plants etc.

I did just spend $50 on an Anthurium native only to Tingo Maria Peru, where the standard lamasi are from. Thinking LARGE biotope.......that will get pricey in a hurry


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## SDRiding

I definitely agree this is a pretty cheap hobby, almost the entirety of the cost is in setup. You can definitely spend a lot if you want. It's dangerous to be a DIY guy in this hobby, that rabbit hole is soooo deep. I have a few awesome ideas I've been considering that could get rather expensive, but dammit they would be awesome.


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## bsr8129

I spend more in gas a month then I do frogs


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## senditdonkey

bsr8129 said:


> I spend more in gas a month then I do frogs


Ya hadn't thought about that. 

My boat holds 960 gallons of diesel ........ . I may vomit.


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## JonRich

SDRiding said:


> I definitely agree this is a pretty cheap hobby, almost the entirety of the cost is in setup. You can definitely spend a lot if you want. It's dangerous to be a DIY guy in this hobby, that rabbit hole is soooo deep. I have a few awesome ideas I've been considering that could get rather expensive, but dammit they would be awesome.


Oh man!! I have dreams (or maybe they are nightmares ) of DIY ideas !!


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## motydesign

SDRiding said:


> I definitely agree this is a pretty cheap hobby, almost the entirety of the cost is in setup. You can definitely spend a lot if you want. It's dangerous to be a DIY guy in this hobby, that rabbit hole is soooo deep. I have a few awesome ideas I've been considering that could get rather expensive, but dammit they would be awesome.


i may have fell down that hole... only to find it doesnt end


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## VicSkimmr

Yes DIY is a slippery, slippery slope. It sure is fun though B)


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