# Excidobates mysteriosus in the US? And breeding programs for other frogs?



## Trojan

I am sorry if this is a stupid question for anyone out there but I am deeply curious about why no one has legally brought in Excidobates _mysteriosus_ from Europe? 

I have on occassion worked with a conservation biologist, unrelated to dart frogs, but he suggested that sales of illegally imported frogs would increase if any were brought in legally. 

But on the other hand a succesful breeding program in the US may protect it if further habitat degredation occurs. So are there special permits for just breeding purposes that could be obtained? 

I am in love with this species but obviously have never been able to see them in the US. I have heard rumors that people have them (shame on you if you do) but I doubt its in high enough numbers to preserve then really even if they were brought in from captive bred populations in Europe. Thanks ladies and gents for indulging me.


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## carola1155

Trojan said:


> I am sorry if this is a stupid question for anyone out there but I am deeply curious about why no one has legally brought in Excidobates _mysteriosus_ from Europe?


There is some great information in this thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/55443-e-mysterious-legality-2.html

TL;DR the importation would still be a violation of the Lacey act even if they are captive bred in Europe because the Lacey act considers offspring just as illegal the smuggled animals.


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## Trojan

Wow that is very interesting. So as far as that goes does Europe just not care at all?? I find all of the arguments for peru o keep the rights to them kind of lame. Isnt the species found in parts of ecuador also?


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## oldlady25715

They seem to breed them fairly easily in Europe too.


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## Ed

Trojan said:


> Wow that is very interesting. So as far as that goes does Europe just not care at all?? I find all of the arguments for peru o keep the rights to them kind of lame. Isnt the species found in parts of ecuador also?


So would it be okay for someone to come from another country, break into your house and steal your animals? 

Supporting smuggling is nothing more than supporting theft and encouraging the destruction of populations in the wild. All your doing to trying to justify a reason to get a frog you can't have regardless of the long-term cost to the animals, the ecosystems and the hobbies. 

You might find this thread a little edifying before making comments. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/76410-tumucumaque-morph-photos.html 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

oldlady25715 said:


> They seem to breed them fairly easily in Europe too.


and this brings up the statement "So what?". 

the fact that they breed easily doesn't mean that it is okay to smuggle them. Keep in mind that captive breeding doesn't mean anything for preservation of a species unless there are other actions taken in conjuction to the captive breeding. At this point it is nothing more than a rationalization for smuggling them ... 
some comments 

Ed


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## Trojan

Ed, that was not a justification to smuggle them. At no point has anyone advocated that. What I was saying tmis that if Peru is arbitrarily keeping the rights to them as they are slowly losing habitat, that is silly when other countries can help. Dont jump that that conclusion. Also I never mentioned wanting to own them. I just think they are beautiful. It also puzzles me that they would be so free about letting certain frigs out of the country but not these. I understand that they are more endangered but keeping them in thier endagered habitat when perhaps simply granting only zoos the right to have them for breeding purposes seems silly to me.


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## Ed

Trojan said:


> Ed, that was not a justification to smuggle them. At no point has anyone advocated that. What I was saying tmis that if Peru is arbitrarily keeping the rights to them as they are slowly losing habitat, that is silly when other countries can help. Dont jump that that conclusion.


if you think about this argument then it should become apparent that you are in fact advocating for them to be smuggled after all you consider Peru's protection of their wildlife to be arbitrary i.e. not valid. If there isn't a valid reason to support Peru's protection of them then there is no barrier to the removal of the frogs. Think about the chain of your argument, it was and still is a justification whether or not your realized it. 

I'm going to make an educated guess here in that you think that if they were released to the hobby then 1) the captive population can be used for repatriation and 2) it would reduce smuggling as there would be frogs available in the pet trade. This is why I suggested reading that thread that I linked above and the thread that is linked in it where there is a discussion on why captive breeding by itself is not conservation in any way shape or form. 



Trojan said:


> Also I never mentioned wanting to own them. I just think they are beautiful. It also puzzles me that they would be so free about letting certain frigs out of the country but not these. I understand that they are more endangered but keeping them in thier endagered habitat when perhaps simply granting only zoos the right to have them for breeding purposes seems silly to me.


Whether or not you personally wanted to own them is immaterial see my comments above, you were justifying the removal of the frogs as you view the position of Peru as not being justified. 

As for sending them out to zoos, how much space do you think is available in zoos for all of the animals at risk? Pretty much all of the zoos have their usable space already allocated and zoos have to coordinate and cooperate to ensure that a sufficient population is sustainable for the next 100-250 years and this is before we consider biosecurity so that the frogs can be released in the event of an extinction event. If the frogs were housed in the same areas as animals from other zoogeographic regions it has been found to have resulted in novel pathogen exposures and severe problems in the wild. There have been more than a few cases where repatriated/released animals brought novel pathogens to the wild population with disasterous results. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Trojan

Ed, there is no reason to be so negative man. Please just address the question. If this is not a sustainable/ viable practice why not address it in general instead of making it about a member of the board? There is no reason to believe that I am advocating smuggling. In fact I said I dont support it. (Using shame on you but the idea is no support)

As far as preserving the species then what would work? Habitat preservation is obviously key but considering climate change as a very real issue and industrialization and exploitation of the habitat, what is a sustainable practice for preservation? Does anyone have anything relevant about things that have been done to breed species for sustainability? I know much has been done in costa rica has it not? 

Some more thoughts,

Trojan


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## Ed

Trojan said:


> Ed, there is no reason to be so negative man. Please just address the question. If this is not a sustainable/ viable practice why not address it in general instead of making it about a member of the board? There is no reason to believe that I am advocating smuggling. In fact I said I dont support it. (Using shame on you but the idea is no support)


I'm guessing you didn't bother to read the thread I linked to in the above post .... if you had read it and the associated thread then you would have seen that this is another issue that has been repeatedly discussed. Its not about just you, this question comes up multiple times a year and pretty much each time the person complains that the laws of other countries regarding the lack of an animal in hobby collections is wrong in some way or another. That is nothing more than justification to own animals that have been smuggled. 

For another part of this discussion see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...ght-vs-captive-bred-conservation-efforts.html 

As for your claim that I'm making this thread about you and ignoring the issue by being negative, this is an attempt to deflect the attention away from your inability to argue that Peru's laws etc are a problem and how if you tried to make that defense you would still be arguing for smuggling and exploitation of the local population. I did not call you an idiot or anything else that was a personal attack, I went after your argument but not only did you try to play the victim card you implied I'm bullying you ... as a defense against the problems of your argument. 



Trojan said:


> As far as preserving the species then what would work? Habitat preservation is obviously key but considering climate change as a very real issue and industrialization and exploitation of the habitat, what is a sustainable practice for preservation? Does anyone have anything relevant about things that have been done to breed species for sustainability? I know much has been done in costa rica has it not?


First and foremost the hobby had at its option for more than a decade two different programs that would have allowed the hobby to manage the genetics of their frogs for the long-term sustainability (250 + years). One of the programs was the same one that is used by zoos and aquariums to manage their captive population but both were stopped due to lack of interest and participation in the programs. So the hobby has repeatedly demonstrated that they do not care about that aspect of conservation. 

Second, if you had read up on the idea of captive breeding as a safety net, you would have come across the threads where it was demonstrated that captive breeding by institutions and/or hobbyists by itself is not conservation. See the threads linked in this thread for the arguments that have already been made. 

Third, I would suggest that before you make the claim about habitat destruction being a huge risk for dendrobatids, you should understand their behavior and biology where many of them are disturbed habitat specialists and the highest population densities can be associated with human made disturbances. This has been discussed repeatedly on this forum. 

Fourth, climate change as an issue justifying moving populations into captivity, I again point to the limited space in institutions and the fact that the hobby has shown no interest in managing the populations for long-term captive survival much less for the ability to be released/repatriated to native habitats and there are now documented cases where repatriation/releases have introduced novel pathogens and did significant damage to the target populations before considering the issues like inbreeding and outbreeding depression. I suggest reading the information already on the forum as there is a huge amount of data that is tedious to retype. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ravage

I agree with Ed. While we can have dreams of saving a species, the work required to do that is substantial. Locally, when we work with native species, the rules are almost invariably: If you take it out of the wild, you can NEVER re-introduce it. The flow of bloodlines can only safely go one way.
Raptor rescuers and the like all work with this in mind. Most rescues spend their lives as ambassador animals. 
The effort to save the Condor was painstakingly rigorous because they wanted (needed) to re-introduce them to the wild. Their protocols were so far beyond what we can do as hobbyists that it's not even funny.
A more practical goal would be the maintenance of the lines we now have in the hobby: for the continuation of the hobby. 
As humans, we tend to want what we want and have an unlimited capacity to rationalize our actions. We have an urge to be the first with the newest, shiniest thing, animal, whatever. It's not anyone's fault, that's what our DNA (the Boss)and our minds want. We have to use learning to overcome these urges and delay gratification, indefinitely if necessary. Our emotional desires are not working out so well for the environment, so; If we want to help, we shouldn't create a market for smuggled animals. Period. Not today, not ten generations down the line.
Climate adaptation and ecological restoration is the main part of what I do for a living. There is no second nature, that's the rub, if we don't fix the wild, the species we will be needing to save is ourselves.
It would seem that if we want to continue the hobby, we need to support the wild populations for future renewal of our bloodlines: not the other way around.


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