# Check out my new beauties



## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Good evening everyone,


couldn't resist buying these citronellas :

1st pair:










male first pair:










female 1st pair:










2nd pair hiding:










viv 2nd pair:











These are the first legal WC imports from Suriname we got to Europe for about 11 years. They must be the biggest dartfrogs I have ever seen, over 7cm/3inches long. They seem healthy, but are very shy and stressed from their journey. Yet they are eating like no other frogs I have and I will have to increase stocks of fruitflies. They jump like about 20cm/8inch high and about 40cm/16inch far. They will be housed in two 300l/75gallon vivs in separate rooms until I can be sure they are healthy and will then move them on to the main frog room. Until then I will be watching them closely!


Have a nice day

gluedl


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Those are reallly great looking frogs 
Always wanted Citronella but haven't gotten to them yet


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

nice frogs!! great viv too.


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

7 cm??? That's amazing! Those sure are nice frogs!


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## RichardA (Jul 15, 2009)

Smokers right there! Congrats!


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Good evening everyone,

time for an update, and not a happy one. Last night while observing them I noticed something moving in the belly of my male named Citrus. Looking closer I could see some worm crawling under it's skin!
Called the vet this morning and got an appointment later in the afternoon. While carrying them all my frogs poo, that came in handy, but a preleminary look under the microscope did not show anything alive, some more fecals will be send in tomorrow, but my restless mind has no time to wait. The worms seem too be lightshy as we looked with some kind of lamp and didn't see anything at all. Without the lamp I think we distinguished two of them, just where the left leg starts. First the vet thought he could cut them out  , but seeing how far they moved around (about 1cm2)he doubted he could be fast enough and even doubted he could get them all. After some lecturing he gave me a solution to be supplemented oraly  once a day for 3 days. How should I do that? They dont take worms like terribilis. I guess I will have to try dumping melos in it and hope the frogs take them. Anyway here are some pics:

box










male packed up




























the evil worms top view



















side view





































the hospital 










I monitored weather conditions in Surinam since I bought them and tried to simulate their natural environment as good as I could. Yet, right now I just think: This is what you get when you buy wildcaught frogs, succeeding with them is purely based on luck. 
These animals belong to their natural place. And I can just warn everybody as there are simply things you can't control, like stress. I haven't lost a frog in 3 years, but how fast you forget how bad that feels!

ANY ideas, thoughts or help will be much appreciated.


gluedl


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

They are beautiful frogs Sorry to hear about that. I remember hearing, once they start to show external parasites it is really too late, but that male still looks pretty healthy.

If you email Dr frye, he maybe able to offer some better advice.
Frye Brothers' Frogs


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Would the normal dewormer treatment not work? Levacol, panacur?


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Actually they sound like fly larvae, more that I think of it.


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## Suzanne (Dec 28, 2008)

You can also drop a dose on the back or head of the frog. Amphibians can absorb drugs through their skin. Much less stressfull than oral administration (since this includes handling).


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Suzanne said:


> You can also drop a dose on the back or head of the frog. Amphibians can absorb drugs through their skin. Much less stressfull than oral administration (since this includes handling).


You are right about absorption but that is a completely uncontrolled dosing method. Without knowing the dose needed, rate and degree of absorption, having an established protocol for this is impossible and is nothing short of playing with your animal's health.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

Is the worm medicine you got in powder form or liquid? Also what is the name?

The first tank in your pictures, if the frogs were in this you will need to strip down the entire tank (and throw away all plant material in it) and wash it really well , as the frogs will shed eggs of these worms in their stools. 

Good products for sterilization in Germany are:

Sargotan (Allzweck-Reinger), it contains benzalkoniumchlorid which kills any bacteria/fungus (ie: chytrid god forbid they have this), hose down the tank really well then soap up the tank with this stuff and leave it sit for an hour then rinse the tank really well until you cannot smell it. 

Also to kill any signs of worm eggs, etc in the tank, the next best product is Bactazol, also with this you will need to wash the tank really well. 

OR if you are feeling up to it, an all in one solution is going to the apotheke and getting some chloramin-t Chloramin T ? Wikipedia , it is pretty much the same as using american style bleach, however it is quite nasty stuff. 

You can send a fecal sample to Exomed - Institut für veterinärmedizinische Betreuung niederer Wirbeltiere und Exoten (better then cutting in to your frogs), they will be able to tell you the exact worm and recommend the best course of treatment for this type of worm (which is most probably ringworm). 

If you are not able to get anything in powder form let me know and I will give you the contact info to a breeder here which can get powdered de-worming medications which are best, as they cause less stress while killing the worms.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

hexentanz said:


> If you are not able to get anything in powder form let me know and I will give you the contact info to a breeder here which can get powdered de-worming medications which are best, as they cause less stress while killing the worms.


Maureen, all medications of this type are strictly regulated in the EU. I know your heart is in the right place but what you're describing would be illegal.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

johnc said:


> Maureen, all medications of this type are strictly regulated in the EU. I know your heart is in the right place but what you're describing would be illegal.


No , the medications I am referring to are not illegal. If it would be so, I highly doubt a vet would be prescribing them.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

I apologise - I didn't see the original poster was also in Germany.


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Hey guys, 

thank you so much for your support! This is why little me is around here, so many nice people!


@suzanne and johnc: I also had the idea of bathing them in a diluted solution, but as I don't know what will get absorbed, I will leave that out for the moment. 

@hexentanz: please PM the contact person for the powder, my treatment is liquid. Last night when I came home, I did not have the heart to try to get them to swallow it, they were stressed enough, I will give it a first try today, without much hope of success. Needless to say that the tank will be cleaned. I work in a hospital and have access to good stuff... I must admit I have forgotten what the name of the treatment is, but I'll phone the vet this afternoon.

Fingers crossed and 0 tolerance for dead frogs...

Have a nice day

gluedl


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Just had the vet on the phone, the stuff he gave me is ivermectin.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

I treated Blue Jeans for worms with ivermectin, mine was supposed to be administered as drops on the frogs' back once per week for 4 weeks with change of quarantine container the next day after each administration, - ask the vet if that's the method you should be using and how many drops should be dripped onto each frog


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

I sent the information to you via pm! Let me know how it goes. 

The liquid medicine you got btw is pretty good stuff too. I used that for a tree frog which had roundworm. It too had to be given orally. I used a small syringe with a hook shaped end on it (non needle type), with this I was able to pry the mouth open gently and squeeze the meds in. In my case I was supposed to give the recommended dose once for the first dosing, then repeat it after two weeks and again after 4.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> I treated Blue Jeans for worms with ivermectin, mine was supposed to be administered as drops on the frogs' back once per week for 4 weeks with change of quarantine container the next day after each administration, - ask the vet if that's the method you should be using and how many drops should be dripped onto each frog


This is an established method for treating birds and mammals with antiparasitics - dosing and rates of absorption are established. I find it worrisome that vets are doing this with frogs. Has anyone actually biopsied frogs to establish ivermectin and panacur absorption, and appropriate skin dosage.


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Good evening everyone!

The vet prescribed 1,5 drops of a syringe he supplied per 50g of living frog, once a day for 3 days. Wait 2 weeks and redo the whole if not better. I just checked the weight of my frogs:

8,8g for the male and 11,1 g for the female

That means 0,25 drops for the male and 0,3 for the female  .
Yet the good side is that such a small amount could work with springtails (dish; 0,x drops and springs mixed into it)???

Maureen, I just mailed Herr Seil and I will wait for his opinion on the whole thing.

Thanks again for all the support, I'll keep you updated.

gluedl


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Gluedl,

I'm sorry for the sick frog. It is my understanding that a number of the 2009 Suriname imported D. tinctorius have had health issues and some have died. Even if the importers treat the frogs, this is not the same as a clean bill of health. I also worry that new pathogens will get into the hobby frog populations unseen and cause problems for us all down the road.

They are very beautiful frogs and I'm sure the temptation is great (for me as well!). I do worry, though, that we are not "vetting" these frogs as well as we could.

I do hope you can save them. Good luck, Richard.


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## BossLady83 (Jan 18, 2010)

any more news on your babies??? i hope things are working out better...


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

> Hi Gluedl,
> 
> I'm sorry for the sick frog. It is my understanding that a number of the 2009 Suriname imported D. tinctorius have had health issues and some have died. Even if the importers treat the frogs, this is not the same as a clean bill of health. I also worry that new pathogens will get into the hobby frog populations unseen and cause problems for us all down the road.
> 
> ...


exactly my thought. I just called the importer who did not give me any satisfactory information, except that his imported cits are breeding well... 

So please everybody, before buying WC frogs think about it, as in my opinion there is no argument that can justify your act...

And as an update:

Both frogs are in separate containers right now, vivs with the dimensions 40x50x40cm (see hospital in pictures). Ground is covered with ecobark,some papertowels on it, a coconut and a shallow water tray. Both layers get replaced every day. Both frogs do not like the fact that they are in such small enclosures and are permenantly looking to escape, banging their noses on the glass. The only positive is that I got nice belly shots of them...

Sunday, I started medication. I took large melos and dipped them in the solution, then placed them in front of the frogs which took them all. I repeated this about a dozen times/frog to get them the prescribed dose. It was really a pain in the a and took me about an hour/frog.

I did not notice any change in behauviour and this morning, before going to work both were just fine to my eye.

I will post some pics after work.

Thanks for all the support guys!


gluedl


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Good evening everyone,

some pictures as promised.

Belly shots:



















medication










fruit fly dip










Needless to say I crushed more then I got out alive. And the solution just sticks to the wings, by the way

Some more questions for the brains around here. The worms are definitely under the skin and not in the organs. I presume they will not come out when dead (has yet to happen). Seeing the size of the thing of well over 1cm, I am afraid it will just rot under the skin and kill the frog that way? Is there a sign you could see an inner rot from outside at an early stage? I am still considering the option of letting the vet at least the biggest one out when dead, but only if I don't have another one. Or will a rotting worm be of no effect to the health of the frogs?

I am remembering a very old X-Files episode where they had a parasitic worm that were killing them and they used another same worm to cure themselves because only 1 could survive in a host, 2 would kill each other. Where is my magic worm???

Have a nice day

gluedl


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Hi all,


today might be the turnaround in my war against worms. The one on the flank of the male I can see and observe moves alot less then before, actually you really have to pay close attention to see it wiggle it's tail. The frog itself seems to be more active and reactive too...

I fed them orally as prescribed for 3 days on day 1, 3,4. On day 2 I also took 0,04ml ivermectin and added 0,36 ml water, shaked and got a solution that I used/frog. I applied it with a qtip to the flank, let it do it's work for half an hour and then gave the frogs a shower.

Fingers crossed.


gluedl


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

damn worms are still moving. I am getting ready for the 2 run of medication...

Both frogs are looking good, they move, hunt, eat and try to escape all the time...

Have a nice day


gluedl


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## hukilausurfer (Aug 31, 2009)

it must be such a hassle trying to keep the parasites down. hopefully all these treatments work out in the end.


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

well, the main problem is correct identification as fecals did not show anything, again . From what I have red and heard about the medication, it should do the trick, treatment has just to be repeated sometimes. Yet, my frogs are like my children. When they are ill I feel ill too...


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## dendro-dude (Jan 25, 2010)

Man... Sorry your beauties are sick

I really hope you kill these worms

good luck


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

> Man... Sorry your beauties are sick
> 
> I really hope you kill these worms
> 
> good luck



Thanks dude! I am giving my best shot at it.

Best regards

gluedl


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

Are those imports from Rana?

that would explain the parasites.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Hope your frogs are doing better! ,btw i think u may have the sexes mixed up...unless im getting confused by the pics, the no dot looks like a female to me and the one with the dot looks male


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

> Are those imports from Rana?
> 
> that would explain the parasites.


Yes, they are. But why does that explain the parasites?



> Hope your frogs are doing better! ,btw i think u may have the sexes mixed up...unless im getting confused by the pics, the no dot looks like a female to me and the one with the dot looks male


You might be right... to tell by their toes, quite impossible and I don't have the eye to make a distinction on their bodies. Actually they were sold the other way around... Otherwise they are alive and eating well, that keeps me hoping, but the worm's still there...

Thanks all

gluedl


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

Since they're wild imports who often come with parasites as far as I know.


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Hey all,

after over a month of treatment with a week between every tree days of application, the worms are still there and moving. 
I gave them ivermectin orally and twice drops on the part with the worms, no change. Any ideas or comments would really be nice!

Have a nice day

gluedl


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

PumilioTurkey said:


> Since they're wild imports who often come with parasites as far as I know.


Even CB frogs have parasites. Anyone that says their PDF's are 100% free of parasites is full of #$^%. It's the stress involved with importing that causes the parasite loads in WC to be higher. This is a large factor in the deaths of many WC animals, they are stressed to the point that their bodies are no longer able to cope with the parasites, and the parasites increase.


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

gluedl 2 worms 0 

2 weeks ago they did not look good, they got skinnier and definitely looked stressed by their small enclosures. Put them back into their remade viv and fed them intensively. While they gained weight, the worms lost in size (diameter and length) and stopped moving. Today I got the results of their latest fecals (which are fine) and the worms can't be seen anymore. The frogs have been very bold and hoping around the viv for a week or so.

Maybe I will even get them to breed...

Thanks everyone for the support!!!

Have a nice day

gluedl


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

Awesome! Glad to hear everything worked out!


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Good evening everyone!


Last night I heard them call for the first time but did not see them at that moment. Today when I come home the male sits outside a hut and the female sits on a huge sack of eggs. They must have been naughty just before I came home. This is the biggest compliment a frog can make to me but it's also to say "thank you" to all who helped and supported  :



















Will keep you updated if they develop.

Have a nice day 

gluedl


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

its baout time they got going! congrats!


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

> its baout time they got going! congrats!




Thanks Julio


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

congratulations! And very glad to hear they won the battle with the parasites.


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## Froggy (May 9, 2010)

I just read the thread all the way through and I'm so thrilled that everything worked out for those gorgeous guys and of course the proud parent . 

It felt like a Lifetime Network movie that all works out in the end. Please continue to keep us posted on the progress of the eggs.

Strong work, dedication, and the help from those who care made the difference.


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

@ Froggy & frogface:

THANKS guys

gluedl


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

a little update:

30.05.2010










04.06.2010










06.06.2010



















11.06.2010




























12.06.2010



















Have a nice day

gluedl


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

A little update, the first froglet from the first clutch of five is about ready to leave the water, many more to follow. Enjoy:

07.10.2010:




















Have a nice day

gluedl


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

Nice looking froglet, congratulations!

Deb


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## Almog (Sep 27, 2010)

I'm very happy for you to hear about getting rid of the worms, and about the cluches development as well!

Fingers crossed for 7 cm offsprings from the big parents!


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

thanks guys!!!


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Congratulations gluedl! Great heartfelt thread here, I'm really glad that you and your frogs WON the battle!!!! And I cannot believe how huge those parents are! Wowwwwwwww, just what on earth is GERMANY feeding these monsters???? 

I still believe you should be living in the States, but that's just me....hehe 



Alex


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Hey Alex

thank you for the nice feedback 

I got the frogs as adults and they have been imported from Surinam in June 2009. So the question should be: what did they grow up with there??? I got them in the Netherlands and was living in Luxembourg(neighbor country to Germany) at that time and on Christmas 2009 we moved to Germany, I still work in Luxembourg. The frogs had a long journey to end up in a viv...

By the way I feed them springs, isopods and ffs and when I have them: pea aphids.

Cheers

Mihai


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Hi all,


first let me wish you (and your frogs of course) all the very best for 2011!

Then I wanted to show you my first froggies:

This is the only one that survived the first clutch of 5 eggs, the other 4 had sls and other deformities and had to go... I guess this is still related to their treatment as the first clutch was laid pretty much just after they got "healed". He is about 8 weeks old now and a fatty. Compared to other tincs I raised this one already looks huge 










The second clutch (9 eggs) started to come OOW around christmas, here are the pics, they are all doing fine till now.





































As you can see, there are a lot of variations and I am very pleased. I'll keep this thread updated until all (there are about 40 more to go) are OOW and I can provide some belly shots and a group shot. Also I have noticed that some of the dots are slowly disappearing, the oldest froglet had 2 big ones, one stayed the way it was, one is vanishing. 

Getting the parents (which are mighty fine) to that point was 1 of my main concerns of 2010 and I would like to thank again all the people here for there imputs that kept me on track!

Have a nice day

gluedl


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

good to see you again, its been awhile. im glad you got the parents treated for the worms and all worked out ok.

james


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## exboyz04 (Mar 20, 2009)

waw your posts and pics are real great and so love your citronellas i have to get some soon. Did u ever get a pic of the worm. well done on raiseing your froglets the look very nice


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

> exboyz04 Re: Check out my new beauties
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> waw your posts and pics are real great and so love your citronellas i have to get some soon. Did u ever get a pic of the worm. well done on raiseing your froglets the look very nice


Hey exboyz04 and James: thanks for the feedback!

I never met that worm in person, jut saw it wiggle under the skin (on the first page you can find pics of the female in a cup, side view, with a bumb just over the left leg on the side of the belly, that was the worm (s?). Sometimes I thought there were 2 of them, but I am not sure. During the treatment the worm seemed to get smaller over the weeks, stopped moving and finally disappeared. I can't tell you if it got pooed out or just destroyed by the frog's defensive system... The fecals did not show any worms or other parasites after the treatment.

Have a nice day

gluedl


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## exboyz04 (Mar 20, 2009)

great info and thanks for the post


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

Great job with treating your frogs. I'm glad your record of not loosing a frog in three years remains intact.


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Babies chasing springs










Some weird patterns


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

So happy that everything worked out for you. You are a very dedicated hobbyist and deserve all the best!


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