# so what pdf's can be mixed?



## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

I read a lot about what pdf's cant be put in the same viv, are there any that can?


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

bellerophon said:


> I read a lot about what pdf's cant be put in the same viv, are there any that can?


None that *SHOULD.*


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I tried it twice, lost 5 frogs to stress and fighting over food and space. I have my 2 Leucs. in a 20 gallon tall all to themselves, everyone gets along. John


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

so noone has had luck with a few Azureus and an Intermedius/lamasi/Imitator? I've asked a few breeders in private and they've had little to no reservations about mixing them up. Are they just planning on making another few bucks when problems arise?


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## S2H5287 (Sep 7, 2006)

From the breeders i've talked to a lot have said if you can, try to keep species specific tanks. They say a lot of times the frog may not show his/her "true" nature b/c another frog may be too dominant or cause stress or whatever else the case may be and cause the frog to act different (ex.=shy). Although they have said if you have a decent amount of experience with keeping frogs some of the "better" combos. (if there is such a thing) would be frogs that are more terrestrial mixed with others that are more arboreal. Then again, i have seen auratus mixed with tincs. and azureus mixed w/ auratus and they've gotten along great even in adulthood. The auratus would be out in plain sight to even though, according to a lot of people, many are supposed to be shy even in their own species specific tanks. I've seen this with three different morphs of auratus also. Guess long story short be Very careful and keep close watch if you decide to follow through with mixed tanks, might want a back up plan to just in case like having a 10 gallon waiting or something. (Alright last thing is swear, i know this is long) But a lot of what you read online says everything i've stated above, but many breeders are worried about hybridizations (diff. species breeding=hybrid) and thats why many also don't suggest mixed tanks. Hopefully some if not all of this info. was helpful. 

Remember this is all in diff. peoples experiences, not all are going to be same. Ant the tanks ive seen w/ mixed are pretty decent sized (above 30 G.) You could have trouble mixing species ive seen work great together.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Some mixing is done successfully, but it isn't generally recommended for a "starter," which almost everyone (including me) wants to do in the beginning. They are so colorful, and one wants to enjoy the whole show all at once, but it doesn't work that way. I think some personal experience under your belt with individual species kept separately, should be a prerequisite before mixing, and then you would need a lot of space to do this in, well over a 100 gallon tank, I think. You mentioned a "few azureus," which are extremely territorial and are best kept in mated pairs, as they don't get along very well in groups among their own species, let alone with others--at least not in the relatively small size tanks most of us keep them in. The leucomelas get along together well in groups of their own kind, and so do the imitators, albeit with more fighting and arguments, which in my experience aren't fatal. 

I haven't mixed yet, but am considering it because I have a free 180 gallon tank, which may be large enough to contain a couple of species together. I'm thinking of D. galactonotus, a yellow morph, with perhaps a D. auratus--one of the bronze and green morphs. I'm not sure yet just what I'll choose to do, but I'm being very cautious about it. 

One of the other concerns of course, is muddying the waters by inadvertent cross breeding among closely related species or color morphs of the same species, and then releasing them into the captive breeding population. There are some ethical concerns about keeping the original wild populations of the same species relatively "pure," whatever that means. This of course, applies more to breeders who will sell and share the off-spring than to hobbyists that aren't going to distribute or sell them. 

I don't think any serious, reliable breeder would encourage you to mix with the idea of making money by your having to replace the frogs you lose. (That would be self-defeating, I should think, as you would most likely choose another breeder the next time.) Some are however, more lenient about inexperienced customers mixing than others, and will give you a good idea about what mixes might work the best. Most of the known breeders who advertise regularly and have been around awhile, aren't out there making big bucks on scams. They aren't making big bucks at all, as a matter of fact.


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## topaz017 (Jul 30, 2006)

The breeders probaly get your question 100 times a day, and there is no one word answer of yes or no. They gave you a fast short answer.

There are 10000's posts here about mixing. Id hate to say, do a search.. but for this question, its the best thing.. do a search on mixing.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

First off, thanks for taking the time to leave some thoughtfull answers. I think you hit the nail on the head when you stated we want to "enjoy the whole show all at once". I guess what I have to keep in mind that unlike dogs and cats I'm entrusted with a little bit more responsibility with these animals. I suppose I'm just a little bit dissapointed that I'm making a 40+ gallon viv that will ultimatly hold no more than a 10 gallon could have.


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## Josh_Leisenring (Jun 19, 2005)

> I suppose I'm just a little bit dissapointed that I'm making a 40+ gallon viv that will ultimatly hold no more than a 10 gallon could have.


I think, while a 10 gal works fine for a group of frogs, anything bigger is even better, as your frogs can never have enough space. For many of us, a large, well planted, attractive viv is its own reward, and your frogs will be grateful for the additional room. I wouldn't be too disappointed; your frogs certainly won't be. And while the frogs certainly are the main show, the stage they're presented on can be just as important. I'm not sure what your experience with creating and maintaining vivs is, but I find that it is just as rewarding as caring for the frogs you keep in them. Good luck!  

- Josh


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## hoyta (Jan 18, 2006)

*READY*

ok, i'm going to get flamed for this, but i'm over it :lol: 

i think alot of people stress too much on this board. i'm not saying they are wrong, by any means! mixing can be done, if you are willing to take the risks. i wouldn't mix tincs, or mix semi aboreals with terrestrials(leucs with azureus,etc.)

another thing- there are so many leucs,tincs, azureus in this hobby- if hybridization does happen, keep it to yourself! LOL! i seriously doubt that it will hurt the populations of the more popular frogs. like i said before, i'm not condoning this by any means! i'm still kinda new to this myself! i just don't see the leopard gecko or ball python thing happening. how many posts have we seen about hybridization happening in the wild? i mean, if you look at the tincs for example- most of them look alike. a citronella looks like a cobalt with more yellow,etc.etc. of course, there are differences in where the species come from.. it just seems to me that alot of these species out there are wild hybrids....

as for the original question- one thing that benefits people form non-mixing is that you get to enjoy each species seperately. sorry if that doesn't make sense! i love to watch leucs compared to tincs, etc.etc..
i guess what i'm trying to say is- the hybridization thing is kinda old- if we are talking about colons,darklands, etc., then yes! don't mix them! but an azureus? come on..... the main reason that mixing is wrong is stress.. if you have a big enough tank- go for it at your own risk....


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Josh_Leisenring said:


> I think, while a 10 gal works fine for a group of frogs, anything bigger is even better, as your frogs can never have enough space. For many of us, a large, well planted, attractive viv is its own reward, and your frogs will be grateful for the additional room. I wouldn't be too disappointed; your frogs certainly won't be. And while the frogs certainly are the main show, the stage they're presented on can be just as important. I'm not sure what your experience with creating and maintaining vivs is, but I find that it is just as rewarding as caring for the frogs you keep in them. Good luck!
> 
> - Josh


Amen!


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## Raymond (Aug 26, 2006)

Personally I find that mixing different species of frogs in the same tank is not the brightest of ideas. I have heard of many hobbyists losing frogs due to stress caused by other frogs. For instance, males will fight other males of territory, etc. and females will sometimes fight other females. An oppressed frog can soon become a dead frog. Basically, you could save a few dollars on viv construction by doing this but I'd rather pay to build two seperate vivs then lose some frogs due to previously mentioned problems.

If you are intent upon mixing species then I suggest only, and only doing it in a large and heavily planted viv. I personally wouldn't do anything under a 55 gallon. But thats just me. Most would maybe start at a 40G perhaps. Also, make sure the tank has a whole bunch of broms, terrestial plants, and leaf litter. The later is very important as it will allow a stressed frog to hide under the leaves and find a place of seclusion where it can relax.

Best of luck.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

Just fyi: there are many groups of frogs that, given ample space, are kept in groups quite nicely. Galacts are one, leucs are another. Both are good starter frogs and would live quite happily in a large tank. Glacts and leucs are both extremely colorful and full of personality. 

Mixing is a touchy issue, and there is a sticky around here somewhere that has several links in reference to the much-debated topic. A search is your best bet. 

My answer to a starter mixing: no.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I just noticed that no one here has claimed a success story about mixing dart frogs of any sort in a single tank. It's all speculation about what if, and what might work, and some documented negative experiences. But no one has had any really wonderful results from mixing, or can tell anyone what to mix with impunity. Or all we all just more experienced newbees talking to less experienced newbees because the real Gurus are tired of answering redundant questions, which on the advice to do "research," aren't answered, either? People who come to this board ARE researching to even get this far. We shouldn't tell them to "research" further before they can talk to us. That's a rude response. I know the questions are often redundant, but this particular one has never really been anwsered completely with any kind of authority. So it will keep cropping up.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

You can potentially mix azureus tincs and and other morphs because they are technically the same species, just different morphs of tinctorius. 

I know somebody here that has a display tank with mixed morphs of auratus, and everything is ok, but the eggs must be destroyed.

Keep in mind tincs don't always get along with each other, so if you knew the gender of the frogs, a male azureus and cobalt in a large enough tank wouldn't probably harm each other. 

Regardless if its two female cobalts, two female azureus, or one azureus and one cobalt female, there could be problems.

If you ended up with a pair from each morph, destroy the eggs because nobody accepts cross morphs or species in this hobby.

I personally do not mix anything because I want to breed what I have and would rather not take chances.


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

you people seem so paranoid god forbid they hybridize just dont introduce the offspring into the hobby like some other dude here said and in the wild its not like the frogs have there own personal bubble true they have more space in the wild but if you have a large enough tank and no one is dead or stressed its fine right


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

naja_naja said:


> you people seem so paranoid god forbid they hybridize just dont introduce the offspring into the hobby like some other dude here said and in the wild its not like the frogs have there own personal bubble true they have more space in the wild but if you have a large enough tank and no one is dead or stressed its fine right


In the wild there are natual 'barriers' that select the locations for each sp.
Mountains, hills ponds, lakes , stream, rivers.

Considering the two seperate systems supplied, there with be two different frogs with different preferences for living conditions, such as one specie will live entirely aboreal it's whole life without ever reached the forest floor. There could be a seperate sp. or even genus colony living directly underneith terrestrially and they will never associate between each other because of what is provided through extending surface area and specialties adapting to fill any void.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

naja_naja said:


> you people seem so paranoid god forbid they hybridize just dont introduce the offspring into the hobby like some other dude here said and in the wild its not like the frogs have there own personal bubble true they have more space in the wild but if you have a large enough tank and no one is dead or stressed its fine right


I draw a distinct difference between being paranoid and demonstrating responsibility in animal husbandry. In all the discussion pro and con for mixing and hybridization, I have yet to see a credible argument presented, let alone the results of a scientific study, as to how mixing and/or hybridization benefits the frogs in question. Whereas there are multiple points for why mixing isn't necessarily a good idea.

So in the absence of that data I can only conclude that individuals mix and hybridize simply because it pleases them to have nice little color palettes in vivariums, regardless of whether said mixing is good for them or not.

Now one could raise the question of whether keeping dart frogs in little glass boxes is good for them period but that is for a different discussion thread and a different day.

Bill


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

The fact that various species appear in nature in seperate geographic areas tells me enough. 

If geographically we could find tinct's with Azureus, with Auratus and Darklands, with Galacts with Histo's then fine.

The fact they are geographically displaced from each other is because thousands of years of evolution has put them where they do best, which in my opinion isn't together. Yes some areas do border each other where enviromental conditions don't change just because there is a man made border present, but in general species live seperatly.

We may not fully understand the reasons behind this yet, but nature and evolution do.

Just my 2 cents

Steve


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Once again, mixing is generally left to people that have been keeping frogs for a long time. everytime its Russian roulette. It HAS been done, like the auratus display i mentioned, but eggs are destroyed and the person is very careful as far as fighting goes. I remember he telling that he removed teh bicolor and azureus that used to live there because the auratus got very aggressive when they laid eggs, which is something that must be kept into account. 

Again, I refrain from mixing because i don't want cross breeding and fighting at all.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "! i just don't see the leopard gecko or ball python thing happening. how many posts have we seen about hybridization happening in the wild? i mean, if you look at the tincs for example- most of them look alike. a citronella looks like a cobalt with more yellow,etc.etc. of course, there are differences in where the species come from.. it just seems to me that alot of these species out there are wild hybrids.... 
"endsnip

You only have this idea partly correct. While hybrids do occur in a number of species in the wild these hybrids are then at a disadvantage with the parental populations at large as they have a negative selective fitness for further reproduction as thier cues and responses during courtship are not totally correct. The problem is that in captivity these reproductive barriers are then broken down due to reduced mate selection as the animals cannot move on to look for a different mate. 
The morphs are not hybrids, these are localized color patterns that have been selected for by being better adapted for local survivial (there are some exceptions to this such as some populations of pumilio). 

Given that with good care these frogs can live between 10 and 20 years do you want to be keeping multiple hybrids? (assuming you do not destroy the eggs). If you do not then they hybrids get out into the hobby and someone down the line will put up a post asking what it looks like and it can very well be identified as a variation of an existing morph....... 

Many Zoos and aquaria do keep multispecies enclosures on exhibits. This is accomplished in a number of different ways. As with crocodilians, in some species if you increase the density of the frogs sufficiently you can prevent the formation of territories keeping the frogs from being overly aggressive with one individual (the number keeps any aggression diffuse as there are too many targets), using only one sex of a species can also make this possible if you use the less aggressive of the two sexes in a species, and using immature animals are all potential methods that allow multi-dart frog enclosures to work. The only problem with these methods is that they also reduce or eliminate some of the cool behaviors in this group of frogs. This is why it is often easier to use a totally different genera to prevent the interactions (such as small sympatric geckos (like Spharodactylus ssp)). 

Ed


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Steve said:


> The fact that various species appear in nature in seperate geographic areas tells me enough.
> 
> If geographically we could find tinct's with Azureus, with Auratus and Darklands, with Galacts with Histo's then fine.


The same 'apparent' specie of auratus from Panama has been abserved living in peru along with the lower populaions of Epipedobates. Red/orange Histronicus colonies being close, (I think) but higher in elevation which seems to be the only barrier. Then of course go on and there's Lahmanni right next door. Strange.



> The fact they are geographically displaced from each other is because thousands of years of evolution has put them where they do best, which in my opinion isn't together. Yes some areas do border each other where enviromental conditions don't change just because there is a man made border present, but in general species live seperatly.
> 
> We may not fully understand the reasons behind this yet, but nature and evolution do.
> 
> ...


If there happens to be a drastic geographic alteration (land formation,/degeneration) and there has been in the past, this will allow seperate species to ineract and potentially hybridize, giving an integrated morph which slowly absorbs/melds the two species in time. Essentially giving all that we see now. In the begining maybe every sp. had it's own single (primitive) 'tribal' coloration, then interaction took place and the colors began to mingle and take shape giving recongnition for seperation.

In some parts we are (we were) surveying and witnessing evolution at hand inbetween the process of integrating populations.


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