# Loss of 6 orange terribilis 48hrs after shipment?



## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Situation: I ordered 6 orange terribilis. All came in healthy fat and acting normal. I separated them into 2 groups of three and put them in 190oz temp containers. They were decent sized froglets maybe 3-5mo old. I put exoterra forest moss and pothos cutting in with them.

Other factors. The moss had been hydrated for about a month and kept in my 90 degree plus garage in a black trash bag. Also, the pothos ws not rinsed because it was a clipping I put in water right after I bought the plant from lowes. So I'm wondering about pesticides, chemicals from the trash bag or mold / fungus from the moss. One thing that I noticed though was that when I checked the frogs 12 or so hours after I got them they hadn't eaten many if any flies and they were crawling all on the frogs.

I don't know. I think it was stress from the flies and shipping. I'm sticking with that. Weird thing is 2 of six new mints died vary simularly a few days after. One that lived from the temp container of the two that died is fine but was a bit wierd for a while and I actually put it on the bottom shelf to die for about three days and when I picked it back up to check it it was right as rain and is now fine. I do notice though that it gets freaked out by too many flies. whereas a tinc or other large frog would just eat them all and kick off the ones crawling on it.

any thoughts?


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## Arizona Tropicals (Feb 15, 2010)

Couple questions



Quaz said:


> The moss had been hydrated for about a month and kept in my 90 degree plus garage in a black trash bag.


Why were you storing the "hydrated" moss in a trash bag in your hot garage for a month prior to using it in a temp tank?



Quaz said:


> One thing that I noticed though was that when I checked the frogs 12 or so hours after I got them they hadn't eaten many if any flies and they were crawling all on the frogs.


How many flies did you put in the temp tank with the frogs?


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

Another question is what temp were you keeping the frogs at? Also, was anything else in the temp. container with them? What were the shipping conditions as that could be a determining factor as well?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear that. I was told by my "frog guru" that a frog can be stressed to death by too many flies crawling all over him. He told me that was one of the reasons he was against "in tank" fly culturing. When your frogs were already stressed from shipping, that could be a possibility.


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## Alpha Pro Breeders (Oct 13, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that. I was told by my "frog guru" that a frog can be stressed to death by too many flies crawling all over him. He told me that was one of the reasons he was against "in tank" fly culturing. When your frogs were already stressed from shipping, that could be a possibility.


I don't think that all 6 frogs (I'm assuming that was all of them) would have died from too many flies jumping all over them. I would look more towards temperature or environmental.


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

Alpha Pro Breeders said:


> I don't think that all 6 frogs (I'm assuming that was all of them) would have died from too many flies jumping all over them. I would look more towards temperature or environmental.


I'd echo this reply as well. Something else you said should offer clues--it happened once before to your mints and now to another group of terribilis--once is a fluke, 2X a pattern. Terribilis are know to be very sensitive to elevated temps--anything above 80 degrees is asking for trouble.
Be sure to learn from this and eliminate/replace the variables you mentioned--the questionable moss and houseplant from Lowes.
Best of luck,
Scott


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Did the moss stink at all? A month of soaking in water in a warm, dark place could culture some heavy bacterial load.


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## blacksmith (Feb 24, 2009)

I second what Dane says. I tried the exoterra forest moss and it is very dirty, even fresh out of the package. The water drained from the initial moistining of the moss looks like a mudslide. And it had white worms in it. I'm not saying thats what killed the frogs, but that's my 2 cents on that particular moss.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

It could be a combination of several of those if not all... Newly shipped frogs, put on a substrate with a possible heavy bacteria load, excessive temps during transit added to normal shipping stress and dehydration, possible home temps near or above their max suitable temps, and then to many fruit flies dumped in causing more stress = dead frogs. Of course there could be one or more x factors we haven't hit on yet...but if some or the majority of the above happened + a little bad luck that would likely account for most if not all the deaths.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Dane said:


> Did the moss stink at all? A month of soaking in water in a warm, dark place could culture some heavy bacterial load.


Ya if the moss was warm and wet and in the dark for over a week that is a field day for anaerobic bacteria. You dump a frog onto a substrate loaded with that while its immune system is compromised from even normal shipping stress let alone high temp shipping...then add the stress of to many flies, possibly unsuitable viv temps and you've definitely got a recipe for disaster.

But honestly any one or more of those mistakes could be really easy to make in your first few years. Just make sure you learn from it. Its worth asking the dealer what they might be willing to do for you if anything. I know I had a darkland female that just never thrived after it arrived and died within a week and the dealer gave me another at half price which I thought was awesome since the live arrival guarantee had been met...some dealers will work with you. I think with them dying that soon after arrival shipping stress has to play a major role and maybe because of that a dealer will work with you a little. 

When I get new frogs, I open box asap without shaking the crap out of it...maybe take a few quick pics then put the frogs in the viv or temp tank, mist them put just a few flies in and often turn off half or all the lights and then stay the hell away from the tank as much as possible for at least the next 24 hours. Adding anything new to the viv just before arrival is a bad idea because if anything was on it the new environment hasn't had time to cope and re-balance itself to whatever was brought in on that new plant, wood...whatever.

Sucks though man, I feel for ya. Buy more but this time get something I'll like since you are local  I do want some mints actually...


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