# GE silicone II window/door/attic/basement Q.



## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Has anyone used GE II window/door/attic/basement in there vivarium before? I just bought it becuase it was the only silicone that came in brown. It mentions nothin about bio-seal or being aquarium safe or even being toxic. The only thing it mentions is that it provides a mold free product protection, which scares me. I know that people have said that they use ge silicone 2 with bio seal before which is the mold prohibitor and many have used it before they put the bioseal label on it even tho it was still in there. Think its safe? Or should i return it?


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Look at my thread, I used GE Silicone II, no problems. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/70246-20-long-vertical-tank.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is controversy over the use of GEII see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal.html to make up your own mind. 


You can get black aquarium safe silicone here Glasscages.com - Aquarium Sealant 

Ed


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Was it the window/door/attic/basement sealer version? Im sure it doesnt matter much but it would make me feel better knowing you used the same exact one. Also how long has the viv been up with no problems?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

shibbyplustax said:


> Was it the window/door/attic/basement sealer version? Im sure it doesnt matter much but it would make me feel better knowing you used the same exact one. Also how long has the viv been up with no problems?


All of the GEII has it in it, regardless if it is advertised in it or not. The use of it changes how the silcone cures resulting in a different outgassing product that isn't as strong smelling. 

Ed


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

I forgot to mention that my tank will have a small stream and will be used in that also. Do you think it will effect the water at all? I will have some fish in there.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

johnyrocks said:


> Look at my thread, I used GE Silicone II, no problems. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/70246-20-long-vertical-tank.html





shibbyplustax said:


> Also how long has the viv been up with no problems?


Shibby, that is a good question, looking at the thread JR references it like his tank was built last month and does not have frogs in it. 

Give the Bioseal thread Ed referenced a good read. I personally would not use the silicone you are talking about. 

Sally


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## mcaiger53 (Jan 3, 2011)

I made my first few vivs w gs and ge2 silicone. That was before I found this site, and learned about the differences. There hasn't been any issues yet, but my frogs aren't producing yet. They have just reached maturity and started courting. If I recall correctly, some of the issues showed in the offspring of parents raised in ge2 tanks. (SLS) and such. Since reading about "possible" issues, I look for Ge1. Lowes currently has it in clear and black, they said that they can order diff colors for me.


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Yea i will probably end up just returning them and buying the GE I. I used GE I in my first couple vivs because i know people are on the fence about II but i can only find GE I in clear and white and i hate how they both look because if i use them to seal something thats going to be submerged then it always looks glossy or like it has a film on it and if you miss a tiny spot with the peat on the background it stands out more. Iv heard of some people using II with no ill effects so i figured i might use is since its brown but id rather go on the safe side and deal with my problems with GE I


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

The arguments about Bio seal IMO is complete bull, my tank's been up for a few months, but no frogs, but happy springs. I've also made a custom 43 gallon fish tank using GE Silicone II, clear. I've never seen any evidence confirming that Bio seal has had any long term effects on eggs, tadpoles, and frogs with use of over 5 years. Until I see evidence confirming this statement, I just think Bio seal is entirely harmless to all living creators, but it's not my choice. Just my 2 cents...


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

How long have you been using the fish tank and have you had any fish loss? I am more worried about this effecting my water then anything. I also am having some trouble with the tank i built right before this one. Its a 20g extra tall filled 2/3 with water with a peice of mopani as a shelf for the land. I made a tree trunk and rock background for the water portion, painted then sealed it with GE I. I am in the process of cyling the tank and keep losing all my fish. I went through about 6 dannios ( iv been putting in two at a time) and my water parameters are at perfect levels escept for a small spike in ammonia(.25). I used tetra safe start in the beginning and been doin water changes(with conditioners) and still have no luck. The last two lasted alot longer then the ones before but now today i look and their both done for.(poor fishies) anyway im tryin to think of whats going wrong and can only think of either the silicone or paint i used (non toxic acrylic) anyway im not gonna put another fish in until i can get some advise on what can be going wrong. My LFS hasnt been a real help and said im doing ever thing right. Anyone have any idea what it could be?


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

It's probably worth it to get some aquarium-safe silicone just to be safe. It is more expensive, but you wont have any of the worries associated with using GE II. I have used GE I on 6 or 7 vivs without any problems, so you should be fine using that if you don't want to get aquarium-safe silicone. Good Luck.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

johnyrocks said:


> The arguments about Bio seal IMO is complete bull, my tank's been up for a few months, but no frogs, but happy springs. I've also made a custom 43 gallon fish tank using GE Silicone II, clear. I've never seen any evidence confirming that Bio seal has had any long term effects on eggs, tadpoles, and frogs with use of over 5 years. Until I see evidence confirming this statement, I just think Bio seal is entirely harmless to all living creators, but it's not my choice. Just my 2 cents...


I would suggest reading the bioseal thread.. For an example as an error in your argument, is that no effect on springtails means no effects on frogs.. If you want to use this as evidence then on the same logic you should be able to eat death cap amanitas as box turtles eat them.... 


Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

johnyrocks said:


> The arguments about Bio seal IMO is complete bull, my tank's been up for a few months, but no frogs, but happy springs. I've also made a custom 43 gallon fish tank using GE Silicone II, clear. I've never seen any evidence confirming that Bio seal has had any long term effects on eggs, tadpoles, and frogs with use of over 5 years. Until I see evidence confirming this statement, I just think Bio seal is entirely harmless to all living creators, but it's not my choice. Just my 2 cents...


You are totally unqualified to make such statements. You speak as if this "evidence" does not exist. The evidence has just been handed to you on a silver platter by Ed. Did you even bother to read the referenced thread? 
By the way, mold is a living "creators??"...try this again. Mold IS a living creation, and Bioseal is made specifically to KILL it!!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

shibbyplustax said:


> How long have you been using the fish tank and have you had any fish loss? I am more worried about this effecting my water then anything. I also am having some trouble with the tank i built right before this one. Its a 20g extra tall filled 2/3 with water with a peice of mopani as a shelf for the land. I made a tree trunk and rock background for the water portion, painted then sealed it with GE I. I am in the process of cyling the tank and keep losing all my fish. I went through about 6 dannios ( iv been putting in two at a time) and my water parameters are at perfect levels escept for a small spike in ammonia(.25). I used tetra safe start in the beginning and been doin water changes(with conditioners) and still have no luck. The last two lasted alot longer then the ones before but now today i look and their both done for.(poor fishies) anyway im tryin to think of whats going wrong and can only think of either the silicone or paint i used (non toxic acrylic) anyway im not gonna put another fish in until i can get some advise on what can be going wrong. My LFS hasnt been a real help and said im doing ever thing right. Anyone have any idea what it could be?


Unless the fish are necropsied and subjected to a ppt or ppb anylsis then loss or no loss cannot be used as a valid estimation if it is safe or not. There is abundent data that the organotins are a problem but there simply isn't any studies in silicone II on whether it will migrate when used far outside of it's designated use however there is evidence that organotin stabilizers added to hard pvc tubes will go into solution so there is reason to believe that a softer polymer (the silicone) will also leach it. See for example http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA303717&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf 

Ed


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Ed i think you misunderstood what i was saying. I didnt use this type of silicone on my other palu i used GE I i was just throwing it out there for discussion why my fish may be dying. Different discussion all together then the GE II silicone, maybe i should have started a new thread. Reguardless im going to err on the safe side and return the GE II and get some aquarium sealant or GE I.


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## beatusb (May 3, 2011)

Read the warnings on the tubes. GE-I states that it meets FDA requirements for food contact. GE-II does not contain this! So why take a chance with GE-II.


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

yes i know, i am returning the GE II and getting GE I


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

shibbyplustax said:


> How long have you been using the fish tank and have you had any fish loss? I am more worried about this effecting my water then anything. I also am having some trouble with the tank i built right before this one. Its a 20g extra tall filled 2/3 with water with a peice of mopani as a shelf for the land. I made a tree trunk and rock background for the water portion, painted then sealed it with GE I. I am in the process of cyling the tank and keep losing all my fish. I went through about 6 dannios ( iv been putting in two at a time) and my water parameters are at perfect levels escept for a small spike in ammonia(.25). I used tetra safe start in the beginning and been doin water changes(with conditioners) and still have no luck. The last two lasted alot longer then the ones before but now today i look and their both done for.(poor fishies) anyway im tryin to think of whats going wrong and can only think of either the silicone or paint i used (non toxic acrylic) anyway im not gonna put another fish in until i can get some advise on what can be going wrong. My LFS hasnt been a real help and said im doing ever thing right. Anyone have any idea what it could be?


The fish tank has been up for 31 months. I lost 1 fish, a neon tetra, because the tank wasn't fully cycled. Not from silicone. I've bred many fish in the tank too.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

And here's a site that sells aquarium silicone. 6$ for a 10x1 ounce tube, same price as GE silicone - shipping Glasscages.com - Aquarium Sealant


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> You are totally unqualified to make such statements. You speak as if this "evidence" does not exist. The evidence has just been handed to you on a silver platter by Ed. Did you even bother to read the referenced thread?
> By the way, mold is a living "creators??"...try this again. Mold IS a living creation, and Bioseal is made specifically to KILL it!!


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal.html ......... I think i'll trust a 30 year breeder along with 70 other people with experience...


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

One more thing.


Imperial_Aquatics said:


> after replies in the thread where I was asking about cure times, I was referred to this thread.
> 
> After tracking down all the threads here regarding this subject, I decided to call GE myself and talk to them.
> 
> ...


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

thanks for the info about your tank and the link for silicone. i am alittle less worried that i have contaminated water and maybe it could just be due to the fact my tank isnt fully cycled. is 6 fish losses alot? keep in mind they all kicked the bucket on different occasions because i only put 2 in at a time. i am just not sure of what it can be being that my water parameter are all fine. i dont have a nitrate test kit but i heard that is alot less lethal then the other stuff and only lethal if exposed to it for a long time.

I am sure the bioseal isnt a problem as many people have used it without incident but it better to be safe then sorry so i will just get GE I. glad to hear that you havent have any problems with your tank and i hope you continue to do so. thanks again for all your help guys.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

shibbyplustax said:


> thanks for the info about your tank and the link for silicone. i am alittle less worried that i have contaminated water and maybe it could just be due to the fact my tank isnt fully cycled. is 6 fish losses alot? keep in mind they all kicked the bucket on different occasions because i only put 2 in at a time. i am just not sure of what it can be being that my water parameter are all fine. i dont have a nitrate test kit but i heard that is alot less lethal then the other stuff and only lethal if exposed to it for a long time.
> 
> I am sure the bioseal isnt a problem as many people have used it without incident but it better to be safe then sorry so i will just get GE I. glad to hear that you havent have any problems with your tank and i hope you continue to do so. thanks again for all your help guys.


How long has it been up? Mine took a good 2 months too fully cycle.


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

johnyrocks said:


> How long has it been up? Mine took a good 2 months too fully cycle.


Going on a month now. what do you think the best way to go from here would be? should i just start a fishless cycle now? i was a bit sceptical on doing that to begin with because i like doin things that are out my hands and is not directly my fault when things go wrong, but apparently that isnt workin out. if i did start to do fishless should i do a complete water change or just continue from where im at? also do you know if the tank has to be cycled for toads? i have two firebellied toads that i will be putting in there iv just been holding off to cyle the water and let the plants grow in.

i just dont wanna kill anymore fish because im starting to feel like a serial killer just sending all my fish to slaughter haha. i really thought that last batch was going to survive because they lasted 5 days compared to the other two pairs one night survival rate.

i even seeded this tank with some stuff from my old tank and even tried doing water changes with the established tanks water instead of fresh tap water. i am just really baffled on what im doing wrong i pretty much did the same thing in my other tanks construction that the fish are doin fine in but instead of a driftwood shelf i had a styrofoam shelf.iv never had this problem before! PLEASE SOME ONE COME UP WITH A MIRACLE CURE!!!!!!!!!!


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

shibbyplustax said:


> Going on a month now. what do you think the best way to go from here would be? should i just start a fishless cycle now? i was a bit sceptical on doing that to begin with because i like doin things that are out my hands and is not directly my fault when things go wrong, but apparently that isnt workin out. if i did start to do fishless should i do a complete water change or just continue from where im at? also do you know if the tank has to be cycled for toads? i have two firebellied toads that i will be putting in there iv just been holding off to cyle the water and let the plants grow in.
> 
> i just dont wanna kill anymore fish because im starting to feel like a serial killer just sending all my fish to slaughter haha. i really thought that last batch was going to survive because they lasted 5 days compared to the other two pairs one night survival rate.
> 
> i even seeded this tank with some stuff from my old tank and even tried doing water changes with the established tanks water instead of fresh tap water. i am just really baffled on what im doing wrong i pretty much did the same thing in my other tanks construction that the fish are doin fine in but instead of a driftwood shelf i had a styrofoam shelf.iv never had this problem before! PLEASE SOME ONE COME UP WITH A MIRACLE CURE!!!!!!!!!!


Try shifting the gravel around. If a lot of goop comes up then it should be cycled. If not then try a different LFS


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

I used sand in this one and doesnt look like anything is on top of it and i dont think anything could get underneath because it is pretty fine sand. when you say try a different LFS do you mean for advise? because i feel like forums like this are ten times more helpful then the people who will tell you anything (pretty much atleast) to get you to buy something of theirs or just inexperienced kids that are working there for a summer job. one kid actually tried to sell me a $15 fish (i forget what kind right now) that i never heard of being that hardy so i can cycle my tank. or were you talking about maybe their fish arent as healthy as other places, which wouldnt be the casee here either because 4 of my 6 dannios that died were actually just taken from my other tank and put in that one, actually the last batch that lasted in there longer were the two that i got from the pet store.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

shibbyplustax said:


> I used sand in this one and doesnt look like anything is on top of it and i dont think anything could get underneath because it is pretty fine sand. when you say try a different LFS do you mean for advise? because i feel like forums like this are ten times more helpful then people who will tell you anything (pretty much atleast) to get you to buy something of theirs. or wer you talking about maybe their fish arent as healthy as other places, which wouldnt be the casee here either because 4 of my 6 dannios that died were actually just taken from my other tank and put in that one, actually the last batch that lasted in there longer were the two that i got from the pet store.


Kind of both, but if they came from another tank of yours that was healthy (Live plants always help, not overstocked, etc) then it's a mystery to me.


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

johnyrocks said:


> Kind of both, but if they came from another tank of yours that was healthy (Live plants always help, not overstocked, etc) then it's a mystery to me.


yep very healthy tank, many plants (though not anymore because i moved them to the new tank) even had some breeding going on in there. there are still 4 or 5 fish in there healthy as can be....

this is a mystery to you an me both....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

johnyrocks said:


> Try shifting the gravel around. If a lot of goop comes up then it should be cycled. If not then try a different LFS


This does not indicate a tank is cycled. You cannot tell a tank is cycled unless you do water quality checks and monitor the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate over a course of at least 30 days. Looking for detritus will only tell you one of the following things, 
1) you are overfeeding 
2) you aren't removing uneaten materials or fish waste 
3) both

For someone who is claiming a lot of experience your ignorance of the basics of fish care is pretty amazing. The understanding of what cycling means has been around for more than 40 years... 

If you want to really learn about cycling, plants and other issues I strongly suggest Ecology of the Planted Aquarium published by Echinodorus Press. 

Ed


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Ed said:


> This does not indicate a tank is cycled. You cannot tell a tank is cycled unless you do water quality checks and monitor the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate over a course of at least 30 days. Looking for detritus will only tell you one of the following things,
> 1) you are overfeeding
> 2) you aren't removing uneaten materials or fish waste
> 3) both
> ...


I didn't say that doing that was the only way to tell. It's just a useful tip to tell of biological activity going on and if there is I said it's a good sign that it might of cycled... The best way to tell if the tank is cycled is to purchase a professional water tsting kit and make sure the pH, ammonia, nitites, nitrates, hardness, and other things like that are near perfect, if not perfect.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

johnyrocks said:


> The fish tank has been up for 31 months. I lost 1 fish, a neon tetra, because the tank wasn't fully cycled. Not from silicone. I've bred many fish in the tank too.


 
How do you know? Please post the necropsy records for the death.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

johnyrocks said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal.html ......... I think i'll trust a 30 year breeder along with 70 other people with experience...


 
There is a simple proof that it is bioactive.. if it kills mold that attempts to grow on the caulk, then it is available to act on animals in the tank. As posted in the bioseal thread, there are a lot of risks with it.. some of them don't directly lead to the death of the animals but can result in disruption of the endocrine cycle...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

johnyrocks said:


> I didn't say that doing that was the only way to tell. It's just a useful tip to tell of biological activity going on and if there is I said it's a good sign that it might of cycled... The best way to tell if the tank is cycled is to purchase a professional water tsting kit and make sure the pH, ammonia, nitites, nitrates, hardness, and other things like that are near perfect, if not perfect.


Are you now attempting to deny you said exactly that? See the direct quote from you below. 

You directly advised the OP that was the case. It has absolutely nothing to do with how cycled the tank has become as it can occur in a week if you overfeed the tank... or put too many fish in the tank and doesn't indicate anything about the establishment of the bacteria that actually convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. 

_*


johnyrocks said:



Try shifting the gravel around. If a lot of goop comes up then it should be cycled. If not then try a different LFS

Click to expand...

*_


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Ed said:


> How do you know? Please post the necropsy records for the death.


It would make sence that it died if the tank wasn't cycled and i've kept healthy fish in there for years after it's cycled, though I have no proof.



Ed said:


> There is a simple proof that it is bioactive.. if it kills mold that attempts to grow on the caulk, then it is available to act on animals in the tank. As posted in the bioseal thread, there are a lot of risks with it.. some of them don't directly lead to the death of the animals but can result in disruption of the endocrine cycle...


 I'm not saying that it isn't bio active, but the same mold inhibitor is in GE Silicone I just as with GE silicone II, but people are obtaining GE silicone I because they think it's a better product. it is not, both silicones contain the bio seal but GE I does not advertise that, and people are basically telling other people to buy a worse product. If they actually were worried, they would buy aquarium silicone.



Ed said:


> Are you now attempting to deny you said exactly that? See the direct quote from you below. I'm not denying what I said, but i'm saying that what I said is not the best method.
> 
> You directly advised the OP that was the case. It has absolutely nothing to do with how cycled the tank has become as it can occur in a week if you overfeed the tank... or put too many fish in the tank and doesn't indicate anything about the establishment of the bacteria that actually convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Ed said:


> This does not indicate a tank is cycled. You cannot tell a tank is cycled unless you do water quality checks and monitor the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate over a course of at least 30 days. Looking for detritus will only tell you one of the following things,
> 1) you are overfeeding
> 2) you aren't removing uneaten materials or fish waste
> 3) both
> ...


i have been monitoring the parameters of my water. PH has been alittle on the low side probably because i have alot of driftwood in contact with the water. There was a slight spike in ammonia after introducing the fish (.25) but it went back down to 0 within a week. nitrites have been at 0 with no spike and i dont have a nitrate test kit but i was told it wasnt that important until later on in the tanks life.

i was under the assumption that once there is a spike in levels and go back down to zero, the tank should be finished cycling. do you think i might just not have enough fish to even make that big of a difference? it is a 20g extra high filled with probably 12 to 15 gallons of water, do you think 2 dannios would be enough to do a fishy cycle?


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

shibbyplustax said:


> i have been monitoring the parameters of my water. PH has been alittle on the low side probably because i have alot of driftwood in contact with the water. There was a slight spike in ammonia after introducing the fish (.25) but it went back down to 0 within a week. nitrites have been at 0 with no spike and i dont have a nitrate test kit but i was told it wasnt that important until later on in the tanks life.
> 
> i was under the assumption that once there is a spike in levels and go back down to zero, the tank should be finished cycling. do you think i might just not have enough fish to even make that big of a difference? it is a 20g extra high filled with probably 12 to 15 gallons of water, do you think 2 dannios would be enough to do a fishy cycle?


I wouldn't kill any more danios, go to your local LFS and buy a few mnnows. They're like 25 cents each. Nitrites and nitrates are key to the tank cycling. Is the water cloudy or clear?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

johnyrocks said:


> It would make sence that it died if the tank wasn't cycled and i've kept healthy fish in there for years after it's cycled, though I have no proof.


If you have no proof then you can't say it was due to x and not due to y. 



johnyrocks said:


> I'm not saying that it isn't bio active, but the same mold inhibitor is in GE Silicone I just as with GE silicone II, but people are obtaining GE silicone I because they think it's a better product. it is not, both silicones contain the bio seal but GE I does not advertise that, and people are basically telling other people to buy a worse product. If they actually were worried, they would buy aquarium silicone.


Actually you are wrong again.. GE I does not contain Bioseal. If you had bothered to read the thread instead of sucking up a question asked by another person in the thread and respouting it as fact, you wouldn't stick your foot in your mouth. As I noted in that thread, GE I does not contain bioseal... this is easily determined by the fact that it cures with a strong odor of vinegar. The bioseal labeling was secondary as the organotins were added to the mixture as it creates a different cure process where the silicone doesn't release acetic acid as it cures, it releases ammonia at levels that aren't as offensive to people..... 

Ed


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

johnyrocks said:


> I wouldn't kill any more danios, go to your local LFS and buy a few mnnows. They're like 25 cents each. Nitrites and nitrates are key to the tank cycling. Is the water cloudy or clear?


its alittle bit colored not really cloudy. it has a greenish tint to it but i was told that it was due to the driftwood.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

shibbyplustax said:


> its alittle bit colored not really cloudy. it has a greenish tint to it but i was told that it was due to the driftwood.


I've had green tint in my water, It's actually algae. No prolem. A cycled aquarium's water is crystal clear, but a non cycled aquarium is very/somewhat cloudy.


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Ed said:


> If you have no proof then you can't say it was due to x and not due to y.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ed,
i appreciate your enthusiasm on the ge II discussion but like i said i am not going to take the chance of using it and am getting GE I so all of this is irrelevant to me. i dont want to offend but i would appreciate if you could help me out with my problems (because you seem to be very knowledgeable about aquariums) instead of trying to change someone elses opinion about GE II silicone. i know your trying to help but if he doesnt agree with your views by now chances are he never will. once again not trying to stir shit up but i would greatly appreciate if you can shed some knowledge on what im doing wrong and help me out.

Thanks again


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

shibbyplustax said:


> ed,
> i appreciate your enthusiasm on the ge II discussion but like i said i am not going to take the chance of using it and am getting GE I so all of this is irrelevant to me. i dont want to offend but i would appreciate if you could help me out with my problems (because you seem to be very knowledgeable about aquariums) instead of trying to change someone elses opinion about GE II silicone. i know your trying to help but if he doesnt agree with your views by now chances are he never will. once again not trying to stir shit up but i would greatly appreciate if you can shed some knowledge on what im doing wrong and help me out.
> 
> Thanks again


I saw that post earlier but I am also addressing the repeated inaccuracies by the other person in the thread.. if left unanswered a person could pull it up on a search of posts and not see all of the data... or arguments. Particularly since he is giving out information that is flately conradicted by published literature. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

johnyrocks said:


> I've had green tint in my water, It's actually algae. No prolem. A cycled aquarium's water is crystal clear, but a non cycled aquarium is very/somewhat cloudy.


Again you are wildly off base.. the cloudiness has it own term it is called new tank syndrome and typically results from high levels of suspended organics that are feeding heterotrophic bacteria which results in the cloudiness (unless you have been stirring up crap out of the substrate from overfeeding) but you can readily have an uncycled tank with clear water where the ammonia and nitrite are in the toxic zones.. The bacteria that cycle the tanks are attached to the substrates and glass.. It would really help if you understood things before coughing up bad information... 

Suspended algae can indicate excessive levels of ammonia or nitrate... so to say no problem is again inaccurate... 
Ed


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Ed said:


> Again you are wildly off base.. the cloudiness has it own term it is called new tank syndrome and typically results from high levels of suspended organics that are feeding heterotrophic bacteria which results in the cloudiness (unless you have been stirring up crap out of the substrate from overfeeding) but you can readily have an uncycled tank with clear water where the ammonia and nitrite are in the toxic zones.. The bacteria that cycle the tanks are attached to the substrates and glass.. It would really help if you understood things before coughing up bad information...
> 
> Suspended algae can indicate excessive levels of ammonia or nitrate... so to say no problem is again inaccurate...
> Ed


Thanks for the info on the suspended algae, I did not know that. As for the other thing, every time you start a new aquarium the water will be cloudy from the bacteria as you said. I don't see how that is incorrect.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

johnyrocks said:


> Thanks for the info on the suspended algae, I did not know that. As for the other thing, every time you start a new aquarium the water will be cloudy from the bacteria as you said. I don't see how that is incorrect.


No if you set up right and know what you are doing, you can actually never have that to happen. I did fish for more than 35 years and I haven't had that issue (even with new set up reefs) in more than 25 years. If we add tadpole rearing into the picture and aquatic frogs with the fish, then between professionally and hobby wise I haven't had that issue in 30 years... 

How it is incorrect is that you directly said that if the water is clear then it is cycled... that is horribly incorrect.... 

I've done this for a long time, both as a zookeeper and privately and I've researched it extensively (hence the literature recommendation on planted aquariums), and you are presenting terrible information that is directly contraindicated both by my experience and the literature. I have no clue where you are getting your information but it leaves a lot to be desired.... 

Ed


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Ed said:


> I saw that post earlier but I am also addressing the repeated inaccuracies by the other person in the thread.. if left unanswered a person could pull it up on a search of posts and not see all of the data... or arguments. Particularly since he is giving out information that is flately conradicted by published literature.
> 
> Ed


Good point i didnt think of it like that


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It occured to me a few minutes ago that a person you may want to talk about with is Dave Calkins as he pioneered a water proof substrate made by mixing silicone with other materials (see this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/15552-silicon-soil.html ). You can send him a pm using his screen name davecalk 

Ed


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

good news, i bought 5 little minnows and put them in my tank a day or two after my last fish loss. they are doing great and going on day 7 now. i am guessing my tank is fully cycled because iv been monitoring the water and there has been no change in parameters. i guess that all my fish losses was due to the tank not being fully cycled and not my water being contaminated. question tho, i dont really want the minnows in there and i think i am going to use them to cycle my new tank when it is finished. i have about 5 or 6 dannios/tetras in my established tank and a cory cat and a few ghost shrimp. if i take all the minnows out, can i introduce all the fish in the established tank to the new tank at the same time? there is only 2 more fish in the old tank then in the new ( and some small shrimp) and i would be removing the minnows so really there would only be an addition of two more fish then i have now and some shrimp. or should i take the minnows out and introduce the new fish a couple at a time, taking a fews days in between to let the water adjust? what do you guys think?

I also introduced the two firebellied toads to the upper portion and they seem to love it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You should probably research who you are taking advice from. If you go to a persons home page and click on statistics, you can research their past posts. One of the people you are taking advice from has a track record of posting obvious bs. If you spend any time at all on his page, you will see repeated entries in which he makes it painfully obvious he has no idea what he is talking about. You will see many posts in which he is called out and proven to be an outright liar over and over. Not to mention his extreme rudeness. It also becomes obvious, after seeing the same questions raised again and again, with crystal clear answers given, that he is not likely to learn the basics anytime soon.


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> You should probably research who you are taking advice from. If you go to a persons home page and click on statistics, you can research their past posts. One of the people you are taking advice from has a track record of posting obvious bs. If you spend any time at all on his page, you will see repeated entries in which he makes it painfully obvious he has no idea what he is talking about. You will see many posts in which he is called out and proven to be an outright liar over and over. Not to mention his extreme rudeness. It also becomes obvious, after seeing the same questions raised again and again, with crystal clear answers given, that he is not likely to learn the basics anytime soon.


Yea i hear ya, but to tell you the truth even though most of the info he was trying to give me was wrong not alot of other people were throwing suggestions out there. i understand this is a public forum and most people on here are in no way "experts" on anything that they are giving info on but i like to take everyones opinions (right or wrong) and research them more thoroughly so i can figure out if this person is wrong and how far off base they are. im not saying that giving out false info is something you should do but atleast he was throwin out some opinons in there. my way of thinking is if you dont know much about the subject dont bother trying to throw your 2 cents in unless you know what your talkin about, but obv thats just me though.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Unless you have been able to detect ammonia, then nitrite and finally nitrate with no ammonia or nitrite the tank is not cycled. It usually takes between 30 to 60 days after you first add the bioload to become cycled. It takes time for the bacteria to become established and if you are using a small bioload and minimially feeding the fish, it can take more than a weekto be able to get a reading. It also depends on how sensitive the test kits you are using to the different levels. If you are using unreliable test kits (like the dip stick test kits) then you may as well be throwing darts at a board. 

Ed


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Ed said:


> Unless you have been able to detect ammonia, then nitrite and finally nitrate with no ammonia or nitrite the tank is not cycled. It usually takes between 30 to 60 days after you first add the bioload to become cycled. It takes time for the bacteria to become established and if you are using a small bioload and minimially feeding the fish, it can take more than a weekto be able to get a reading. It also depends on how sensitive the test kits you are using to the different levels. If you are using unreliable test kits (like the dip stick test kits) then you may as well be throwing darts at a board.
> 
> Ed


 Its been almost a month now since its had fish in it and it ran for about a week before that. I am using the api master kit and from what i hear is pretty accurate. I never saw a spike in nitrite though so i am wondering if the cycle is complete. Ammonia spiked to. 25 and now is back at 0


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

How old is your test kit? The reagents do go bad. Are you using the same tubes each time for the same test? If not, residues can screw up the tests if they have been used enough. 
If you haven't seen nitrite and are not seeing nitrate then either the tank hasn't cycled or your test kit is faulty. 


Ed


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Ed said:


> How old is your test kit? The reagents do go bad. Are you using the same tubes each time for the same test? If not, residues can screw up the tests if they have been used enough.
> If you haven't seen nitrite and are not seeing nitrate then either the tank hasn't cycled or your test kit is faulty.
> 
> 
> Ed



The test kit was only purchased about a month ago. Only problem is i lost the nitrate test bottle some how so i cant check for nitrates. Eash time i test i rinse the bottles out real good witch tap water. Even after doing this and mixing up the test bottles by accident, it could still screw up the test results?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Are you also rinsing out the caps as well? Testing nitrate is important to know if the tank has cycled. 

You should be able to get a replacement bottle for the nitrate testing. 

Ed


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Ed said:


> Are you also rinsing out the caps as well? Testing nitrate is important to know if the tank has cycled.
> 
> You should be able to get a replacement bottle for the nitrate testing.
> 
> Ed


yes i rinse out the caps also and yea i am planning on getting a replacement bottle just havent gotten around to it yet. i will pick that up sometime this week and test to see what those levels are at. is it possible if it already happened that i missed seeing the nitrate spike and wont see it again? or does nitrate never really go down to zero and will be obvious if their is nitrates present? once again thanks for all the info you passed along to me and going easy on a semi-beginner. i have kept fish all my life pretty much but i have never really researched the nitrogen cycle until this time around when i was having trouble starting my tank. you made it alot easier for me to understand how it works then just researching websites and you are truely an asset to this site. i understand that you are a zookeeper in philly from what i remember? that seems like it would be very interesting. i would love to visit that zoo one day and maybe i can on the way down to seeing my girlfreinds mom in deleware. anyway thanks alot for all your help, your very patient and understanding, have a great day.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm not a zookeeper any more as I've been out on disability for more than a year now... 

It is possible that you missed the nitrite spike if it occured quickly. Nitrates don't leave the system unless you are doing water changes or have some form of scrubbing the nitrates (lots of plants or algae). In high levels nitrates can cause immune suppression of things that live in the water. If you are getting a high level of humic acids (brown color to the water), it is possible to stop the cycle if the pH of the water gets too low (below 6 slows it, below 4 totally stops it). 

Your welcome.. If I share the correct information with you and you get it, then you'll have it the next time someone has questions. 

Ed


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Ed said:


> I'm not a zookeeper any more as I've been out on disability for more than a year now...
> 
> It is possible that you missed the nitrite spike if it occured quickly. Nitrates don't leave the system unless you are doing water changes or have some form of scrubbing the nitrates (lots of plants or algae). In high levels nitrates can cause immune suppression of things that live in the water. If you are getting a high level of humic acids (brown color to the water), it is possible to stop the cycle if the pH of the water gets too low (below 6 slows it, below 4 totally stops it).
> 
> ...


ok i will go out and get the nitrate kit asap in hopes i didnt miss the spike yet. although i havent checked the ph in a few days it was alittle low (alittle low because i have alot of driftwood) but nothing too dangerous. i am sorry to hear that you are out on disability, i hope you get better soon and thanks for all your help!


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

So what freakin kind of silicone is the best to use? Ed what type do you use? You probably have some futuristic completely biological adhesive or something... I want to go out and buy some at the store so what should I get??? Is DAP ok I hear people saying it smells funny but does that matter if I air it out enough? Nowhere local has GE silicone I in black or brown. ACE hardware says they have something that is black and 100% silicone... I can get DAP at home depot. What would you guys get if you were going to buy some RIGHT THIS SECOND?


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

I couldnt find anything but clear GE I but i just painted with non toxic acrylic paint first then used the clear so it didnt matter much.


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

Ed said:


> Well since you asked my opinion.. I have never used it in any set ups at work or at home. Originally since I wasn't sure what was in the material.. now since I have a better idea.. no.
> It does make me wonder if this could be one of the intermittant causes of SLS we see in some frogs. (sounds like a good grad or post grad project...)
> 
> I was looking for an abstrat I had seen earlier that had a discussion that the organotins were not that mobile once they got into the soil. This gives me some concerns as this means that it doesn't flush out of the tank but stays in the local enviroment. The frogs will consume the substrate when capturing the prey items. There are also some studies that show organotins are mobile in biological fluids but those studies are not that recent and I would prefer more updated information but assuming the worst case scenario, given what we know of the permeability of anuran skin it could be a concern.
> ...


I mean I found this Ed but you dont reveal your special secret formula or anything...



Ed said:


> There are a lot of things that can cause SLS and I'm still willing to bet nutrition is the leading cause.
> 
> I use clear 100% silicone without bioseal... once it has cured its not a risk as they don't contain the organotin.
> 
> Ed



Which BRAND MAN? Would 100% Black Silicone from ACE be ok? If it is listed as 100% can you be sure there is no organotin?


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

shibbyplustax said:


> I couldnt find anything but clear GE I but i just painted with non toxic acrylic paint first then used the clear so it didnt matter much.


got any pics? how does it look with the coco fiber and clear silicone?


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

JakkBauer said:


> So what freakin kind of silicone is the best to use? Ed what type do you use? You probably have some futuristic completely biological adhesive or something... I want to go out and buy some at the store so what should I get??? Is DAP ok I hear people saying it smells funny but does that matter if I air it out enough? Nowhere local has GE silicone I in black or brown. ACE hardware says they have something that is black and 100% silicone... I can get DAP at home depot. What would you guys get if you were going to buy some RIGHT THIS SECOND?


Are you gonna use it for the BG? I have always used silicone I clear because the only options for sil I around here are clear and white and theres no way I'm using white. The clear gets a little milky after a while but doesn't really look that bad. If you make sure and cover it all up with coco the clear would be fine. The only ugly part is looking at it from outside the tank...and you should be covering that anyway (I use black contact paper).


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Heres what clear ge I looks like totally covered in coco/peat, best pic I could find...


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

fieldnstream said:


> Heres what clear ge I looks like totally covered in coco/peat, best pic I could find...


Nice, thanks for the pic and info


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## dendrorani (Jan 30, 2009)

In my experience, I have had no problem with the GE 2.
I have 7 tanks with GE 2 backgrounds for many years now with no problem.

There are a lot of debates on what type of silicone is safe. I believe that there could be chemicals leaching but it is really hard to even test it. In one of the tanks, I have tetra fish that had babies on many occasions. I think that given proper time to cure you deminish the "leaching" if it were to exist.

My frogs reproduce with no SLS froglets so far.

I am currently building a big setup and I used GE 2 for the glass.
Then again if you can get aquarium safe silicone, then get it so you will be sure to have done it the right way.

Rani


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JakkBauer said:


> I mean I found this Ed but you dont reveal your special secret formula or anything...
> 
> Which BRAND MAN? Would 100% Black Silicone from ACE be ok? If it is listed as 100% can you be sure there is no organotin?


Any silicone that doesn't smell of vinegar when you open it, contains the organotins. Not all of them advertise it. 

With the respects of "no issues" that people post, the issues do not have to result in direct deformations as it can impact reproductive ability and/or fertility. Those unless directly measured can't be determined on an anecdotal basis... which is why I suggest reading the bioseal thread and making up your own mind based on the literature. 

If you want to go with a safe silicone that is dark in color, it can be ordered from a number of sites including Glasscages.com - Home 

Ed


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