# Enviromental impact of viviarium materials?



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

For the most part, what we use seems to be relatively innocuous, but a few things make me wonder, in particular Malaysian driftwood anfd other driftwoods we use. Does anyone care to comment on this issue? 

When hobbyists collect wood, enviromental impact is pretty much nill. Actually, it might be better if the wood is being removed from burn piles.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Tree fern panels are kind of a touchy issue...some claim that they are now farmed, and can be considered a renewable resource, but people belive in that as much as they belive in the frog farms. (for the record, I do belive in the frog farms, and that this product could be made without ruining the rainforests).
The alternative product is coco panels, but what of the binding materials in this product? I belive it is latex, but it would be interesting to see how much energy and chemicals go into manufacturing this product, versus the fuel and potential devastation of using the tree fern product.

As far as collecting driftwood, taking a piece from you're local river here and there I wouldn't see as a bad thing...taking every piece you can get is greedy, and would deprive birds of a perch alongside the river, turtle basking spots, and probably many others.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

On collecting driftwood, pretty much all of what I have in my tank was stuff destined for a burnpile. So me taking them could actually be considered good for the enviroment.

But I was wondering more on the origins of woods that we buy. I hope that in beautifying our tanks, we are not directly promoting the destruction of the habitats we are trying to emulate in out homes.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Great topic... Ill post some more thoughts later, but some quick thoughts I have are the tree fern panels as well as the tropical moss. It is my understanding that much of the moss sold as pillow moss or tropical moss is actually collected from the wild in Florida and other states. I do know of someone a couple years ago who got in a good bit of trouble for collecting it as it was illegal to do so. Im not sure of the conditions that made it illegal, but id bet most, if not all off the pillow moss sold, falls into this category.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

if i am thinking of the same person that got in trouble as you are talking about, then i think he got in trouble for collecting wild orchids and bromeliads not the moss.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I would have to think that the woods for sale would be harvested (in most cases) with the environmental consequences as an afterthought at most.
I'm sure there are exceptions.
...also rethinking my original post...take one piece and you are altering the environment!

A good freind of mine, a lot of times when we are kayaking, will mention that a piece of wood on the banks "would make a nice lamp"...I say it would look killer in a custom viv...we both know better, and prefer to enjoy it where it is, and leave it for others to enjoy as well.

Not to say a piece will be the end of the world :wink: 

That being said, I've heard of people getting tickets nowdays for collecting driftwood here in WI.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

This is a great topic. Here are some thoughts:

tree fern panel - can be really bad or really good for the environment depending on where and how it is harvested. I believe it is New Zealand where a species of tree fern is actually an introduced invasive so they thin it from the understory of managed forests and sell the product. Other places just rip out already declingin natural tree fern.

Sphagnum moss - this can be really bad for the environment. They basically just rip the tops off of bogs and if they are harvesting the peat as well, can do even more damage. Again, it requires a bit of research to make sure you aren't buying sphagnum from earth rapers.

Peat moss - worse than sphagnum. See above.

Pillow/decorative moss - Almost always bad for the environment. There have been some recent articles on moss poaching in national forests (much of it comes from the Pacific Northwest) and the long - sometimes decades - recovery time after moss has been removed. Basically, moss in these ecosystems are insulating sponge blankets and when they are removed, it sets a chain of events in action that is not good for the forest.

Drift Wood - There are a couple of things to consider. The first is whether you are contibuting to deforestation. The second is transportation and greenhouse gas emmissions. Why have a piece of driftwood shipped half way around the world when you can collect locally?

Cork bark - Good for the environment. The Protugese cork forests are in jeopardy because wine bottlers have switched to synthetic corks and taken a chunk of the cork market. Cork harvest is sustainable and does not kill the oak tree that produces the bark. The cork harvesters have created something of a symboitic relationship with the forests so buying cork provides an economic incentinve to maintain the forests.

Rock - Again, transportation costs are insane. I was pretty ticked off last summer when I needed some river rock and the only bagged stuff I could find had been shipped all the way from China. We have river rock all over the place here so why burn deisel or jet fuel to ship heavy rock around the world?

RO Water - Depending on the unit, RO can waste as much as 2 gallons of water for every gallon produced. Some units are more efficient than others. Oftentimes the waste water is suitable for other uses but typically just goes down the drain. If you live where water is an issue, you should probably use a high efficiency RO unit or find a good use for the waste water.

Frogs - some of them are smuggled. Don't buy smuggled frogs.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

The one person I believe had issues in FL may still produce moss and other items for the hobby, but just not directly. They have gone by multiple screen names over the years, but I won't go as far to say who.

The issue is people can stop this just by not buying pillow moss. Especially when it does not do that well in the tanks to begin with. Its much better to use things such as java or ricca it the tanks, which is at least something that can be grown.

On the sphagnum, I was under the impression there were a number of farms producing most of the sphagnum used. Some being in Canada, New Zealand, and etc...


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Thanks for getting this ball rolling. This was the kind of topic I was hoping for.

Driftwood: With local wood, it depends alot on where you collect it. I think hobbyists have no need to go out into the woods looking for pieces. Their are plenty of awesome pieces removed and burned from construction sites, and by landowners to prevent fires. Also, this kind of dry wood is more likely to be parasite/disease free if that concerns you.

The names of the wood kind of give you an idea. Malaysian driftwood, African ironwood etc. I suspect the driftwood is harvested from stumps/roots after the trees in the area have been cut down.

Sphagnum: I've heard that some bogs are harvested sustainably. Here is one site. It is backed by industry interests so the info may very well be skewed. http://peatmoss.com/pm-back.php


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I think you have to read the fine print on peat bog harvest. I'm by no means an expert on the subject but saying that your goal is to do something and actually doing it are two different things. It's my understanding that sustainable harvest and reclaimation methods are still being worked out. In fact, if you read the page carefully that dendrobait posted, you will see that converting a bog to timberland or even cropland can be considered a reclaimation. I always get nervous when an industry talks about their restoration policy because the term "restoration" can be defined very broadly. For example, in many strip and mountaintop removal mines, replanting the area to non-native vegetations can be considered restoring to a balanced ecological state. Studies on prairie restorations have shown that even after almost a century the restored prairies still have not regained the same levels of organic matter in their soils (responsible for many of the ecological processes in prairies) compared with pristine prairie. 

Without diving more into the issue, I'm not sure I would consider any of the sphagmum bog products as "environmentally friendly" but depending on how the bogs are managed, some may be less friendly than others. That said, it is possible that trul sustainable peat mining methods have been developed but reading the CSPM raises a number of flags to me. I think they have the best intentions, I would just want a little more evidence their methods are really effective.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sphagnum and peat can take a long time to recover to levels that were present in preharvest conditions for example 
snip "peat. The rate of accumulation varies considerably with water chemistry, pH, Sphagnum species, and moisture regime (wet vs. dry). In western Washington, Sphagnum peat accumulates at an average rate
of approximately 2.5 cm (1 inch) in 40 years (Rigg 1958). The oldest deposits in western Washington date to the last glaciation and are therefore about 10,000 years old (see Chapter 2)."endsnip (from http://yosemite.epa.gov/r10/ecocomm.nsf ... apter4.pdf)

Sphagnum moss growth rates can vary considerably but can be as low as 0.4 cm a year.. 

I keep a bag of peat on hand to use to gtow moss and ferns for terraria but the amount of peat needed to do this is very small and goes a long way. Take a shallow pot and fill two thirds of the way with silica sand, into this pot place a 50/50 mixture of peat and sand. Place the pot in a brightly lit location out of direct sun (about 12 inches below standard flourescent tubes works well) and keep moist with a high humidity (80-90%) and wait. Moss should start to show up in the pot in the next 60 days with full coverage about 30-45 days after that (depending on conditions (your conditions maynot match mine). At that point, the pot can be split into small plugs for seeding the tank with moss. 
Another way to grow a variety of mosses and ferns for the enclosure is to get some of the tree fern fiber that is from the thinned forests and cut it into small squares. If these are kept moist in a brightly light location (again out of direct sun), a variety of mosses and ferns will begin to grow from the tree fern fiber. These squares can then be used to seed the tank.


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## lukebalsavich (Feb 14, 2006)

interesting topic. I have a couple of things to coin:



It is pretty sick how some of these things are harvested, especially the peat and sphagnum moss.


I know this post is more about the materials in our vivs, but I thought the information I would present was relevant to this subject. After all, if you are thinking of the environmental ramifications of the stuff you get for the viv, you should also think of the ramifications of having a viv in the first place. Obviously it would be most efficient not to have frogs at all.. but we are not going to go there... 

Sorry in advance to sound like a lecturer, and for the obnoxiously long post!

WARNING: the majority of this stuff is rather obvious, so you might get bored or be like, duh... but it is still relevant and rather important while considering the environmental implications of our hobby.

Overhead.. I will break this down to lighting, heat, and water 

Lighting: The energy consumption we use to our vivaria can be insane. It is totally up to you whether you put a 10,000K 200 watt power compact over your tank or a 27 watt compact flourescent that will still make nice colors in your plants (but not quite as nice as that pc). Keep in mind that the difference is not just money, but power- which in most places is made from fuel or other ussually non-renuable and fairly innefficient practices. 

Heat/Cooling: Making a habitat that is 78 degrees when it is -10 outside is borderline crazy talk. There are ways, however, to boost the efficiency of your methods of keeping your frogs from becoming small, colorful ice cubes in the harsh winter
1. Think insulation in cold climates. If you can better insulate your frog room, that is one way saving the extra energy it takes to keep heat the room (not to mention money). Door and window strips, storm windows, perhaps moving appliances that give off heat that you use anyway (i.e. computers) could all help keep a room warm.
2. Efficient heat. Many space heaters are extremely innefficient. I think that the most efficient ones on the market are the ceramic ones. Keeping a tank on wall that is exposed to the elements is going to make heating the viv more difficult as well.

In warm areas, you can take measures to minimize the energy needed to cool the vivs. High-efficiency ACs are an obvious choice. Keeping the tanks in a naturally cooler area (basement, downstairs). Again lighting choice can effect your need to cool (100 watts obviously produces less heat than 50, and so on). 

Water
As bbrock mentioned, RO water takes more water to make than it produces by about 2 fold (sometimes more). Distilled water is also rather inefficient.. and I have little knowledge of this so I have little to say as far as advice other than use the water you have prudently.
bbrock also mentioned frogs, 

"Frogs - some of them are smuggled. Don't buy smuggled frogs." 

That is not to say that frogs that are not smuggled are obtained in environmentally-friendly means. Even legally collected and shipped amphibians could have been harvested in an environmentally-hazardous ways. Although in some places having a market for frogs makes their habitat (and them) worth keeping since the local folks can sell the frogs... thereby avoiding deforestation. Moreover (ethics aside), the illegal purchase of a frog does not mean that it was done in an environmentally detrimental way (though it probably was[like 99.9% I would think] ). This would be especially true of exotics in an area (illegally shipping of auratus out of hawaii) for instance. Unethical? Definitely IMO (though this is philosophical debate rather than scientific). Detrimental to the biological community from which they came? 

On a side note, even if an illegal act is not bad for the environment, by supporting such activity, you would be helping to create a market for shipping other, perhaps more imperilled creatures.

I think the best way to go, if at all possible, is captive born, as you are not taking from any wild sources. And if at all possible, purchasing more locally.. since this way you will minimize the energy to obtain your new beasts.

Just my thoughts.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2007)

Luke, you might find a recent discussion that took place on Frognet interesting: http://lists.frognet.org/pipermail/frog ... bject.html Scroll down about 1/3 of the way until you hit the "green frogging" thread.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

As far as LECA, and the energy to produce...
The "alternative" is egg-crate false bottom...if you think plastic melts and forms itself, with no energy...stop by my work sometime!
That, and the fact that plastic is petroleum based. LECA definatly takes more energy to ship than a piece of egg-crate though.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Dancing frogs said:


> As far as LECA, and the energy to produce...
> The "alternative" is egg-crate false bottom...if you think plastic melts and forms itself, with no energy...stop by my work sometime!
> That, and the fact that plastic is petroleum based. LECA definatly takes more energy to ship than a piece of egg-crate though.


There's another alternative - gravel.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Which has to be harvested.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

defaced said:


> Which has to be harvested.


Well of course it does just like any other material used in a vivarium. But for many people, harvest gravel could be as simple as taking a bucket along on driftwood expeditions.


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## magustrate (Oct 23, 2006)

I personally wonder how many people realize that the fluorescent and compact fluorescent bulbs have mercury in them? Few people that I know of try to recycle their fluorescent bulbs. This is obviously a concern since UV bulbs should be replaced twice a year.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I already mentioned it on frognet but how enviro friendly are vitamin/mineral supplements that frogs depend on?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

magustrate said:


> I personally wonder how many people realize that the fluorescent and compact fluorescent bulbs have mercury in them? Few people that I know of try to recycle their fluorescent bulbs. This is obviously a concern since UV bulbs should be replaced twice a year.


I for one pay good, hard earned cash to properly dispose of my dead bulbs...(pats self on back).
Once you brought it up, I then started to wonder how much extra waste is generated by the screw in cfs when they are disposed of...considering you throw out the ballast and all...


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Dancing frogs said:


> Once you brought it up, I then started to wonder how much extra waste is generated by the screw in cfs when they are disposed of...considering you throw out the ballast and all...




The downside to CF's (and other bulbs such as HID) is that they contain trace amounts ( <4mg) of mercury which, when improperly disposed of, pose environmental risks and hazards. 

On the positive side, it is far less mercury than what is released into the environment by burning coal to light one incandescent bulb (500mg).

CF's actually help "lower" the emissions of mercury into the environment, if disposed of properly, because the mercury from CFLs can quite often be recycled, and used again -- and not released back into the environment/atmosphere.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

I haven't got to read this thread yet but think this might could be relevant considering the topic.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25812

Imagine how cheap it could be if this action didn't 'need' to be diverted back and forth. Not to mention the fuel, although one package doesn't determine where the plane goes. Just an accessory but still.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Not really sure what "action" you are refering to...the action of shipping a frog? Or did you mean to post another link?
I've wondered what the "carbon cost" of shipping overnight packages is...anyone have a guess, or better yet, and answer?


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## r90s (Jun 13, 2006)

Interesting!


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Dancing frogs said:


> Not really sure what "action" you are refering to...the action of shipping a frog?


More or less, but I was referring to the indirect shuffling.



> I've wondered what the "carbon cost" of shipping overnight packages is...anyone have a guess, or better yet, and answer?


It wouldn't be individual. They'll ship more or less packages, more dependant on the people traveling and the take off time. Unless a cargo carrier. Not very likely.

These hubs, I also thinking about these being the site where packages are determined and treated (if deemed neccessary). Which also has an impact component to it, not only to the environment but the frogs being shipped.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

There is another alternative: coco peat and coco chips. I think these are repleneshable :lol: no gravel or leca or anything else needed. 
I`ll be adding a greenhouse here this year. I`m covering the floor to grow moss(whatever type is in my tanks that just appears out of nowhere and fills the floor in a month or 2) and doing hanging broms above them. I also harvest sheet moss around here to sell at shows. I`ve been doing it in the same place for years. It`s a 2-3 year cycle. When I harvest the moss from the downed tree it`s to the point where I can roll it up like a carpet. The next year a new layer has started which is adhered directly to the tree and can`t be harvested. the next year or 2 after the moss or critters decompose the wood layer between the moss and the tree and moss is harvestable. I`ve been doing this from the same area for 6-7 years now. 1 large downed tree can produce about 100 sq feet. I sell 2 sq. ft. for about $10. Because of chytrid and worry about parasites I`ll be growing moss and broms in a place where no animals or bugs will be able to get into it. I`m cutting down on the frogs to put my time more to where it`s needed in this hobby. Culturing new feeders and providing clean, green mosses and plants.
I`m also trying to take away the Fire hazard from my property. I`ll be collecting out a lot of the mossy driftwood from the understory. This is a nice upland moss which dries from time to time. 
I`ve never sold cushion moss because I`ve see what happens when you do. It takes a long time for those little cushions to reappear. I harvested about 6 cushions from my area teh first year and they are just starting to grow back the last 2 years. I didn`t find that it could replenish itself fast enough.


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## MonopolyBag (Jun 3, 2007)

Water is less of an issue, the water we use does not get polluted. Water is a problem when we are polluting it, or when there is not enough fresh water on earth for all living things. I mean, you leave you sink running, if you have a well, water comes form ground, back into ground. Not wasting it. Town water is different, treating it is in a sense polluting it.

I kinda got off topic, but... Distilled water including RO is not that bad of a thing. Personally speaking.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Well, that is not quite correct...
Most of our tap water comes from deep under the ground from an aquifer.
Water falling on the surface of the earth takes many, many years to trickle back down (and thereby purified) to the aquifer...
I forget the number, but I think it was well over a human's lifetime.


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