# Citronella, Nikita, or Cobalt?



## Taron

The field collector says it was a Citronella, it is the same size as my citros , but someone was concerned it wasn't. So i am asking everyone else just to be safe. 










I will post more pics later but I am a little busy right now with the holidays. The frogs are ruffly the same size as the ball used in racquetball.


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## Kantix

Look up "Dendrobates tinctorius “Surinam Cobalt”." to me thats what it looks like.


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## afterdark

Have you got any belly shots?

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/47963-nikita-vs-citronella-2.html#post417822


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## heatfreakk3

Idk, at first I though Citronella, but the legs are throwing me off. Cits have solid blue legs dont they? Not with spots on them.


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## zBrinks

It looks a lot like citronellas I've seen - cits, like most tinc morphs, are pretty variable. That being said, I would go with what you were told. Did it come into the country with other 'citronellas' from the same import? Do the rest of them look similar?


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## mongo77

I have to say when I first saw your ad, the pic made me question them. This pic though says citronella to me.


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## Taron

Kantix I have about 6 pairs of cobalts including surinames and giants. These could be cobalts but if they are we need to make note this is a different line and as of right now I am getting more info on them ie exact locale

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## chuckpowell

Looks like a wild caught Nikita. That's almost exactly what mine looked like when I first got them back in the 90's. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Paul G

The main tipoff to me was the bands around the front legs. Personally, I have never seen a Citronella with bands. 
I'd say Cobalt or Nikita. Most of the Nikitas I have seen have a much darker blue hue on the legs but I have seen bright and dark on Citros so I'm sure there is variation like all dart frogs.

I thought only Cobalts and trivis were coming in from Suriname this year anyway.


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## zBrinks

I have seen F1 cits with bands - seems to be pretty variable.

I saw WC powder blues at a reptile show a few months ago. Not sure if they came in this year or not, but knowing the vendor, it's likely they recently came in.

Taron, what does the belly look like>?


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## bricespice

zBrinks said:


> I have seen F1 cits with bands - seems to be pretty variable.
> 
> I saw WC powder blues at a reptile show a few months ago. Not sure if they came in this year or not, but knowing the vendor, it's likely they recently came in.
> 
> Taron, what does the belly look like>?


ZBrinks-
Here are the bellies, I have a pair of the frogs from Taron. Here's the best I could get with out touching them and stressing them.


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## zBrinks

I've been told that cits typically have more 'solid' blue bellies, while nikitas tend to have a yellow band around their underside that breaks the solid blue. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but it has held true for the nikitas and cits I've seen

Either way, this is just a 'best guess' at an ID. I'd wait to hear back from Taron and see what he can find out.


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## heatfreakk3

Yeah they just dont look like Cits, I'm pretty sure Cits don't have spotted legs like that, see my male Citronella has solid blue legs.


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## bricespice

Another pic of the belly that I got today while (he or she?) was climbing the glass


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## Quaz

Somebody has to know who collected them and where they were collected from. I mean jeez...
It looks like it is an unnamed tinc. varient. There were 1886 Tinctorius morphs collected in Suriname this year and 500 frogs Guyana. My big question is who's collecting them. The weird thing is that the site I saw said they were going to Switzerland and Lietchenstein. LOL


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## Quaz

LOL... funniest looking belly I've ever seen.



bricespice said:


> Another pic of the belly that I got today while (he or she?) was climbing the glass


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## Quaz

what was odd to me was how high the black went on the sides. I've never seen a cit with black going all the way to the armpit area.


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## bricespice

SOrry the wrong pic got posted.
It WAS there but I switched around the photobucket album.


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## bricespice




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## chesney

Looks just like my Nikita. I'll try to take a pic for ya tomorrow.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

I have a group of four frogs sold to me as "Cobalt" that look identical to those pictured. Then have the blue legs with spots, the yellowish green belly and a couple are starting to develop a lighter colored "wristband". I'll try and take some pics and post them.


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## heatfreakk3

Looks exactly like my cobalts.


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## Quaz

Are you guys saying that the backs look like cobalts? I have never seen a cobalt with so much yellow.


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## heatfreakk3

Actually my cobalt looks different. Mine has like solid blue belly with black spots on it, this is exactly like the cobalt I got from taron, it had a yellow belly with black spots. It's a cobalt, just from a different place.


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## Quaz

Well place is really what determines what the frog is. Hence why local is used so much. You can cross a stream or a bit of grass land not much bigger than your back yard in surinam and run accross different morphs. So if we're going to be as specific as it seems so many people are I think the proper identification and collection location of this frog is important.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

These are my cobalts, less yellow on their back than yours.


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## Taron

Yea those are cobalts but they don't look the same.

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## bricespice

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> These are my cobalts, less yellow on their back than yours.


Rusty- take a look at the belly shot I posted. That is why we don't believe these are the standard cobalts.


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## Quaz

so are we any closer to getting collection data on these frogs?


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## heatfreakk3

Brice told me that Taron told her they are Nikitas.


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## Quaz

OM(frickin)G

so did anyone else get these from the collecters except Taron? how do we know they really didn't come from someone who crossed their cobalt and citronellas and let the grow cause they didn't know what to do with them and then hey... we've got a new morph with no real collection data? things that make you go hmmm... not acusing, just saying...


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## Taron

Hey bud you know me personally and I have no reason to lie. Over 1,800 wc tincs come into the country every year. Several respected people have personally pmed me and all told me the same thing nikita. There was very few that came in and yes I hand picked them all. Plus what do I benefit from asking everyone what they are? The answer is nothing at all.

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## Quaz

I was just throwing out possibilities. I know it sounds a bit accusational or could be taken that way but from an outside stand point, Say if I didn't know you what proof is there of anything? even another persons account of seeing the rest of the frogs that came in or the name of the person you got them from. I know it may be a conflict of interest to give up the source of your frogs to your potential customers but it's just really weird to me that it's such a mystery. Especially the pain staking effort that people go through to keep morphs seperate and identified.


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## Taron

The people who bought them know where they came from and I am sure once they are bred they will pass the info on as well. All I can say is they were caught in suriname very close to the Sipaliwini Savanne area specifics where never a hundred percent because the exporter has locals collecting and there was no way to know which local brought them in. That's the best I can do for specifics.

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## Quaz

I believe you. It sure would be nice that if there is a new varient of tinctorious we could properly label, name, and have a direct location of collection for it.


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## Taron

Hopefully one day we can get the exporters to be more specific with locales.

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## Woodsman

The definiton of Nikita and Citronella are very different on the Tropical Experience site. Nikitas are defined as having inky black legs and more of a standard pattern than Citronellas.

Any thoughts on resolving the differences?

Richard.


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## Julio

Size is really the determining factor, Citronellas get to about 1/2 inch bigger.


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## Woodsman

Hi Julio,

Apparantly, the original importer named the frogs after his daughter. Do we know who the importer was and did they come to the U.S. first?

Take care, Richard.


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## BBoyette

My guess is Nikita, due to the wristbands..can I call them wristbands? lol


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## Rusty_Shackleford

bricespice said:


> Rusty- take a look at the belly shot I posted. That is why we don't believe these are the standard cobalts.


I see what you mean. I must have missed that pic the first time around.


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## Julio

i have no idea on the importer, but i have also seen Citronellas with Wrist bands is a pretty common thing among cits as well as having really dark blue legs that look to be black.


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## heatfreakk3

Julio these frogs are a pretty good size, have seen them in person. Still not sure though.


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## Julio

put them next to a full grown pair of cits and you will have your answer.


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## Roadrunner

Looks like we'll never know for sure, maybe citcobniks for a new name? Either way I'd never breed them and just infuse the juvis where I THOUGHT they fit in. Maybe citronella cobalts and nikita are part of the same general population and different areas look somewhat different?


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## Woodsman

This is a photo of a wild Nikita that is for sale by Dutch Rana. Can't say I really get the difference with a citronella, but maybe it's smaller?


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## Woodsman

Also, here's the photo of Nikita from Tropical Experience. Not the same.


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## Julio

The real difference between them is size, you can have cits that look exactly like those nikitas from TE with really dark legs and vice versa.


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## bricespice

Julio, these Nikitas are huge. I would hate to see how big citronellas are.
These are about 2x the size of my 4 yr old azureus.
From tip of nose to end of back is 2.6 in of female and 2.4 for male. The female is 1.3 in wide and male is 1.0 inch wide.
ill get some pics of size this weekend.



Julio said:


> Size is really the determining factor, Citronellas get to about 1/2 inch bigger.


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## heatfreakk3

Also they came from the wild, so that's probably the reason they are so big. My cobalt is huge to.


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## Julio

Brice, who did you get them from?


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## sports_doc

U know what you guys have there? 

Junk.

How the heck can anyone be sure. U have all 3 'possibilities' being confirmed by different members. So it is anyones guess. In fact, it may be none of those??

Welcome to the joys of buying WC frogs from importers selling to anyone willing to buy. Pet stores, trade shows etc.

Now they get named based upon a guess, bred, sold, then everyone forgets where their frogs came from and they get mixed with the current stock of 'citronella/nikita/cobalts' bases solely upon a few nonspecific morphologic characteristics and whalla.....junk.

The US hobby is a mess.


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## markpulawski

Not junk just a bunch of experts IDing morphs from pictures, Taron collecter said Citro they look like Citro, they are Citro. Anyone suggesting a Cobalt and Citro are close should not be commenting on an ID thread.
Nikita's and Citro's are very close, I would suggest the seller is telling the truth when they sell you the frogs.


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## sports_doc

^ I liked your unedited post better 

OK, PERHAPS not junk yet Mark....but they get the point. Start guessing and we turn them into junk. 

If he can confirm a collectors data, then that would be what they should be called. Perhaps with a wink, but still....

Now, when they get collected, sorted in EU or at a wholesalers by color pattern and resold to some yahoo reseller at trade shows....and bought up by unsuspecting DB members, and then sold later to me with wrong names on them...well then I've been screwed and so did those WC frogs....


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## markpulawski

Thanks I should have left it as is but like so may don't want to come off too harsh when it is warrented. This is a perfect spot for Fleshfrombone to jump down someone's throat, people commenting and creating doubt when ther really should have been none for the OP. These ID questions folks are serious for those owning the frogs, to comment when you have'nt seen a lot of frogs is really not appropriate. My original comment would have gotten (or at least what I really wanted to say) me suspended, it is very tedious to see people comment about things they know very little about.
Asking about your animals is great but believing what the person that sold them to you tells you should be hopefully very close to accurate. Forgetting what you have or are working with should tell you.....i've fallen and I can't get up......


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## markpulawski

sports_doc said:


> ^ I liked your unedited post better
> 
> OK, PERHAPS not junk yet Mark....but they get the point. Start guessing and we turn them into junk.
> 
> If he can confirm a collectors data, then that would be what they should be called. Perhaps with a wink, but still....
> 
> Now, when they get collected, sorted in EU or at a wholesalers by color pattern and resold to some yahoo reseller at trade shows....and bought up by unsuspecting DB members, and then sold later to me with wrong names on them...well then I've been screwed and so did those WC frogs....


I agree with your drawn out scenario but the good thing is we are all a lot more educated when it comes to morphs and word rarely is kept secret when something is imported. Moving WC through multiple hands can creat controversy, thank goodness there are only a few frogs that questions arise on...pity the poor Cobalt/Nominant morph, seems there are 4 or 5 locals of those, that I could understand questions on, Nikita/Citro, yes questions.


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## Woodsman

Nikita is apparently the name of the daughter of the person that imported the frogs originally. It is NOT a locality. Given that (even amongst people who have looked at these frogs in the wild) there seems to be no consensus as to what Nikita is (even phenotypically), I think its use as a "morph" (btw, "morph has no status at all in the sceintific nomenclature of these frogs anyway) should be considered in doubt.

And Shawn, to call any of the frogs that we love "junk" is well beyond your general demeanor as a "nice" guy. I think maybe you're just having a junky moment.

Richard.


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## markpulawski

Richard i think Shawn and i for the matter were both fed up with constant questioning and bickering over subtle differences that likely will never be discerned from a picture. Nikita's and Citro's are very close and valid different morph's from different area's. Citro's are bigger than Nikita's and there are a few other differences, SNDF would be the best person in the US to accurately describe these differences...though I am sure someone has talked to him about it and can relay that info. 
To Shawn's point not knowing which morph these are does put them in the catagory of 2010 import don't mix...translated nice frogs that are useless when it comes to broadening the gene pool for either morph AKA junk, pretty harsh yes. Based on those circumstamces I would have to support fully your don't take animals from the wild stance, as what good are they if you don't know what they are. My point was bringing Cobalt into a conversation asking about this frog was pure ingnorance and was a bad side bar in trying to determine what Taron had.
As for the timing of these comments..me too many beers, for Shawn oxygen depravation as he had just run 23 miles and biked 110...and he was angry for the ice was too thick to get his 2.3 mile swim in...


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## Woodsman

Hi Mark,

Given the similarities between the Nikitas and Citronellas (and the bad habit we all have of calling tinctorius morphs based on "what they look like"), perhaps the only frogs that should really be referred to as "Nikita" should be those that date to the original importation (Marcus doesn't happen to have a daughter named "Nikita"?) Otherwise, those dreaded "hybrid" (or as Shawn called them, "junk") frogs are the likely outcome.

Also, I figured that Shawn might have been in a sour mood to call any frog "junk". All of us "hotheads" around here need to rely on Shawn to reel us in from time to time. If Shawn goes to the "dark side", I fear for the over-all civility of the Dendroboard!.

Take care, Richard.



markpulawski said:


> Richard i think Shawn and i for the matter were both fed up with constant questioning and bickering over subtle differences that likely will never be discerned from a picture. Nikita's and Citro's are very close and valid different morph's from different area's. Citro's are bigger than Nikita's and there are a few other differences, SNDF would be the best person in the US to accurately describe these differences...though I am sure someone has talked to him about it and can relay that info.
> To Shawn's point not knowing which morph these are does put them in the catagory of 2010 import don't mix...translated nice frogs that are useless when it comes to broadening the gene pool for either morph AKA junk, pretty harsh yes. Based on those circumstamces I would have to support fully your don't take animals from the wild stance, as what good are they if you don't know what they are. My point was bringing Cobalt into a conversation asking about this frog was pure ingnorance and was a bad side bar in trying to determine what Taron had.
> As for the timing of these comments..me too many beers, for Shawn oxygen depravation as he had just run 23 miles and biked 110...and he was angry for the ice was too thick to get his 2.3 mile swim in...


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## markpulawski

...it would likely be the collapse of civilization as we know it...Shawn, the light in the wilderness! or is that RF?


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## Woodsman

I think we have to hold the post of "his high holiness" open for RF, self-appointed pontificate of the hobby!

Richard.



markpulawski said:


> ...it would likely be the collapse of civilization as we know it...Shawn, the light in the wilderness! or is that RF?


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## chesney

Not that this is going to shed any light on anything, but...

Male Nikita 









Female Citronella


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## Woodsman

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for the photos. It's still odd to me that Marcus at Tropical Experience (who has seen many of these morphs in the wild), defines the Nikita as have "inky black legs". His photo doesn't resemble any of the Nikitas that I have seen amongst hobbyists here. I think I'll send him some photos of our frogs and see what he thinks about the situation.

Thanks again and nice chatting with you! Richard.


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## chesney

IME, Citronella have inky blue legs, while Nikita have lighter legs. The Nikita I have now came from Patrick. I am looking for a picture of a female Nikita I had that came from Marcus, but am having no luck. I'll post it if I can find it, but she looks exactly like the male in the first picture. Maybe the first batch of Nikita Marcus got in did have inky blue legs, thus that is how he described them. Perhaps later on more came in which were more like the ones we all have now with lighter legs? Also, could this just be a variation within this morph? Whatever the reason, please let us know what Marcus says. 

BTW, it was great to chat with you as well.


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## markpulawski

I was at Marcus' years ago wen he had some of the first Nikita imports, as I commented about th Cits and he told me no they are a new morph called Nikita. I don't remember a lot of the conversation but he did say the Nikita's had the little bracelets around the front wrists and the Cits did not, that and size difference where the only thing I remember, the ones I saw had blue legs like the Cits.


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## Woodsman

So I think that the wild-collected "Nikitas" that are being on Dutch Rana are clearly Citronellas. I hope no one imports them here to muddy the water even more.

I'll contact Marcus at Tropical-experience.nl to see if we can bring his definition in line with the U.S. definition. He says "Nikita" is the name of the daughter of the exporter from Suriname. I guess this is who Marcus Breece was working with.

Sadly, no GPS data for any of our beloved tinctorius!

Richard.


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## Quaz

I spoke with Marcus Breece about these frogs and he says they ook just like the wild Nikkitas he's seen and it's the belly that gives it away.


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## chesney

So, Marcus said that the only difference is that Cits have blue bellies and Nikita have yellow bellies?


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## chuckpowell

I hope no one following this post used it as to identify the different morphs of tinctorius - some of the information posted here is wrong. The animal in question is a wc Nikita as I said early on. It matches up well with wc animals imported in the 1990's.

I don't remember the name of the guy who first imported Nikita but he lived in Texas as I remember. He also wrote an article by him in Reptiles magazine several years later which would fill in a lot of details on this and a few other morphs. If someone can research the article and send me a reference I might be able to find my copy. 

Best,

Chuck


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## billschwinn

chuckpowell said:


> I hope no one following this post used it as to identify the different morphs of tinctorius - some of the information posted here is wrong. The animal in question is a wc Nikita as I said early on. It matches up well with wc animals imported in the 1990's.
> 
> I don't remember the name of the guy who first imported Nikita but he lived in Texas as I remember. He also wrote an article by him in Reptiles magazine several years later which would fill in a lot of details on this and a few other morphs. If someone can research the article and send me a reference I might be able to find my copy.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


Hey Chuck, I beleive it was(ready for this) Juan Casanova and he was partnered with a woman from Texas I beleive named Patricia Gruenwald, At least that is how it was told to me by parties involved back in the day, Bill


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## markpulawski

I would be surprised if Jaun knew anything other than what the Dutch collectors that lived in Surinam told him, seem to remember Theo Henson, maybe Rike Henson. All Juan did was have a rich person pay the exporters premiums to export everything to them. I was told he or they did go on the expedition to collect the Alanis and Patricia, the latter being named after Jaun's $$ person. The Citro/Nikita's came after or before (I can't remember which) Jaun's involvement, the very first Cits in the country went to Jack Wattley (then later me & the Cincy Zoo) and then after all went through SNDF. SNDF would be the expert in the USA on those morphs. Those collectors in Surinam would have the most reliable info available if anyone could ever extract it, that and the few other Europeans that have seemingly travelled that area extensively.


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## Woodsman

Mark and Bill,

Thanks for the added info on the Nikita line. It's just very unfortunate for this morph that it has such a dumb name (referencing some exporter's daughter). It would be better had it had a locality name. Knowing the locality would help make a stronger argument that future imports are, in fact, the same morph. My understanding is that the Amer-Indians who collect many of these frogs for the exporters are "free-ranging" collectors and, with no recordkeeping or gps data associated with the frogs, we are only left with the visual inspection of the frogs to determine the morph. Not an ideal situation, for sure.

Thanks again, Richard.


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## markpulawski

I think they gave them arbitrary names to protect location data, which would be a good thing if that meant populations stayed somewhat protected. A numbering or lettering system which Understory put in place is ideal, I believe SNDF also employed the same naming system for a short time.


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## Roadrunner

I think it's Patricia Greunberg?


billschwinn said:


> Hey Chuck, I beleive it was(ready for this) Juan Casanova and he was partnered with a woman from Texas I beleive named Patricia Gruenwald, At least that is how it was told to me by parties involved back in the day, Bill


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## bricespice

Here's some more shots I got today when I relocated them to their perm. tank.


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## Woodsman

Those are some good looking frogs!


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## Quaz

chesney said:


> So, Marcus said that the only difference is that Cits have blue bellies and Nikita have yellow bellies?


No, Marcus said that these looked just like the wc Nikkitas bc of all the features. Belly, leg color, wrist bands and what not.

Brice: How's the female? She looks like she has quite the swollen belly in the one pic


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## markpulawski

Looks gravid to me, also looks as if you got a nice trying to take a poop shot. 
Really sweet pair of frogs, I bet you start getting clutches as soon as you settle them into their permanent enclosure.


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## bricespice

Quaz said:


> No, Marcus said that these looked just like the wc Nikkitas bc of all the features. Belly, leg color, wrist bands and what not.
> 
> Brice: How's the female? She looks like she has quite the swollen belly in the one pic


I am still concerned for the female. She has been "straining" and performing the action to (poop or lay eggs) for 3 weeks. I have yet to observe her poop or lay any eggs. Therefore, I can't collect a fecal and send to Dr. Frye.


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## markpulawski

This happened witha WC New River for me, I put her in a empty Cool Whip container with some paper towel (crumpled) and about 1/2" of water, within 2 days she passed a bunch of eggs and was obviously egg bound. Do this quickly cuz you could lose her.


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## bricespice

Mark-
I tried that about 2-3 weeks ago, but I only did it for a day. Should i put some flies in there with her? any pothos leaves? or just soaked papertowels?


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## markpulawski

Just the paper towel, I used a cool whip container because it was colored and hid the frog somewhat with approx 1/2" standing water in it, so the frogs backside is submerged (the towel slightly crumpled so it could get out of the water a little bit). I put it on a shelf where there was little light, mine took 2-3 days and it passed a bunch of single eggs all over the container. Even if it is not eggs the liquid may help whatever it is pass, I woudl suggest there is little else you could do right now, just don't disturb her and check on her maybe tomorrow night or Friday morning.


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## bricespice

Ok, I did. I put her in a betty crocker butter container, slightly taller than a cool whip container. i poked some holes in the lid and placed her back in terrarium so i can maintain temp.


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## markpulawski

Good luck, they are great looking frogs.


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## dartguy

From the pics, it looks like a cobalt that retained the juvenile coloration. In all of the Suriname cobalt pics I've seen, the juveniles have a lot of yellow on the dorsum, but the amount of yellow is reduced in most adults and black predominates. Other than the unusual amount of yellow present, your frogs look like cobalts. I'm not ruling out nikitas as I haven't seen enough pics of those to make a call, but they definitely don't look like citronellas.


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