# Tesoros Q&A Discussion



## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Hello,

I am creating this thread as a companion to Q&A Tesoros de Colombia 

In order to keep the other thread concise (questions and answers only), I am asking that discussion takes place here. 

Feel free to speculate and give opinions related to Tesoros de Colombia here. 
"I think...", "They should...", "What if..." are all welcome here.

Thank you for your cooperation and participation,
Chris Sherman


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Alrighty, guess I will start! 

Since we have little knowledge as of yet on the _ranitomeya_ and _andinobates_ projects that are in order at Tesoros, what do you want to see entering the hobby? 

It appears that the only _ranitomeya_ species native to Colombia and not currently in the hobby is _r. defleri_, so obviously I would enjoy seeing some of those 

Honestly, I would be happy with any _Andinobates_ that make it to the U.S. of A! There seems to be many species and none are legally available in the trade.

Hope this is the kind of discussion you are looking for Chris

John


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

FroggyKnight,
Excellent. Great post.

As far as a new species, I hold out hope for some yet un-described one, from deep in the jungle. You never know, could happen. Does anyone have any photos of the Colombian reticulata?

I think, but do not know for sure, that the obligates down at Tesoros are reared by the mothers until their front legs emerge, then they are collected from the tanks. I have asked about this and will post any response on the other thread. 

Chris


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

I was unaware of a Colombian retic population, that would be a sweet addition to the hobby! I would imagine they would sell pretty well too..

My dreams are filled with undiscovered species and I really don't think they are a long shot. When you think about it, a huge jungle could hold countless species previously unknown to science

Thanks for asking more about Tesoros' rearing conditions, Chris. Any information we can get will be to our advantage. You know, somedays I wish I was a millionaire, just so I could buy all of those truncates and give 'em a boost


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

FroggyKnight said:


> I was unaware of a Colombian retic population, that would be a sweet addition to the hobby! I would imagine they would sell pretty well too..
> 
> My dreams are filled with undiscovered species and I really don't think they are a long shot. When you think about it, a huge jungle could hold countless species previously unknown to science
> 
> Thanks for asking more about Tesoros' rearing conditions, Chris. Any information we can get will be to our advantage. You know, somedays I wish I was a millionaire, just so I could buy all of those truncates and give 'em a boost


Ya I was unaware of them till recently too...

I think that might be a frog that would sell.

Not like you ever see a crap ton of Retics for sale... especially with no one buying, so that might be good choice for Tesoros if possible.


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

There are several species of Ranitomeya in Colombia. Amazonica, defleri, toraro, uakarii, variabilis and ventrimaculata. And I bet some undescribed ones...

Greetings,
Andreas

Further infos: 
http://www.dendrobates.org/articles/Brown&Twomey_etal_2011_Revision of Ranitomeya.pdf


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

valledelcauca said:


> There are several species of Ranitomeya in Colombia. Amazonica, defleri, toraro, uakarii, variabilis and ventrimaculata. And I bet some undescribed ones...
> 
> Greetings,
> Andreas
> ...


I thought Toraro was Brazil, but reading... http://www.dendrobates.org/articles/Brown&Twomey_etal_2011_Revision of Ranitomeya.pdf ...Looks like there are some in the southeaster tip of Columbia.

So looks like Toraro and Defleri are the 2 we don't have represented in the hobby so far.

If there are any Red colored morphs of Ventrimaculata in Columbia that would be cool, or other unusual morphs of other species already in the hobby.

My fear with Toraro and Defleri is they are to similar to stuff we already have that there wouldn't be enough demand for them at the higher prices required for this project. 

I'm sure if they sold for what regular hobby frogs sold for all the thumb nuts would snatch em up, but not sure they'll fly off the shelves at Tesoros pricing.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

The Colombian reticulata is in that paper as uakarii sp. aff. On page 51, picture H. I've seen better pictures before, so I'll have to search around.

I'd be really excited about bombetes, fulgeritus, tolimense, viridis, and dorisswansonae coming in. Of course, I'd be happy no matter what Andinobates come in. They're all really awesome looking.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Instead of spreading themselves too thin, I'd just like to see more histo/sylvatica morphs 
We KNOW that they will sell for top dollar, we KNOW demand is there, and reproduction is slow enough that hobbyists won't breed Tesoros out of business in 18 months. It's a much better business model for Tesoros to stick with obligates


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> Instead of spreading themselves too thin, I'd just like to see more histo/sylvatica morphs
> We KNOW that they will sell for top dollar, we KNOW demand is there, and reproduction is slow enough that hobbyists won't breed Tesoros out of business in 18 months. It's a much better business model for Tesoros to stick with obligates


I agree. While many long-term froggers would love to have some slightly different, locale-specific representations of species already established in the hobby, the bulk of the free capital that most have to spend on frogs will typically go to the wholly new or uncommon animals. I would suggest that, at least for the time being, Ivan sticks to the species that will provide enough revenue to continue the project, and eventually down the road incorporate some animals that may be in lower demand.

...never thought that I would hear myself encouraging someone to breed the frogs that will bring them the most $$$, but in this case, everyone wins!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

thedude said:


> The Colombian reticulata is in that paper as uakarii sp. aff. On page 51, picture H. I've seen better pictures before, so I'll have to search around.
> 
> I'd be really excited about bombetes, fulgeritus, tolimense, viridis, and dorisswansonae coming in. Of course, I'd be happy no matter what Andinobates come in. They're all really awesome looking.


Ditto... Andinobates aren't in the hobby at all unless there are still a few fulgeritus out there. Unless someone has been breeding them in secret and hoarding them and/or secretly spreading them to other hobbyists they are probably a lost cause at this point, unless someone like Tesoros brings in more.



frogparty said:


> Instead of spreading themselves too thin, I'd just like to see more histo/sylvatica morphs
> We KNOW that they will sell for top dollar, we KNOW demand is there, and reproduction is slow enough that hobbyists won't breed Tesoros out of business in 18 months. It's a much better business model for Tesoros to stick with obligates





Dane said:


> I agree. While many long-term froggers would love to have some slightly different, locale-specific representations of species already established in the hobby, the bulk of the free capital that most have to spend on frogs will typically go to the wholly new or uncommon animals. I would suggest that, at least for the time being, Ivan sticks to the species that will provide enough revenue to continue the project, and eventually down the road incorporate some animals that may be in lower demand.
> 
> ...never thought that I would hear myself encouraging someone to breed the frogs that will bring them the most $$$, but in this case, everyone wins!


I think you're both right that they do need to expand on those species, but I think it would be a mistake on their part not to attempt Andinobates if they have the opportunity (unless it turns out those frogs do horrible in captivity). 

Many are substantially different looking from what is already in the hobby. Many have some red and when does a red frog not sell? ...And they are almost completely unrepresented in the hobby, so there is the added appeal that our personal collection could more fully represent all the species. 

Pretty sure frogs like this will sell...


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I'm with Dave on this. They should definitely focus on the Oophaga, but andinobates should be on the list. I've heard they are more difficult to breed in captivity so I doubt we could breed them out of business. Many have been smuggled to Europe and they aren't exactly common.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Yeah, I *might* be interested in buying something like those guys


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

How much is known about the breeding habits of andinobates? Are they facultative egg feeders? I wonder how prolific they will be in Tesoros' facilities... 



What are Tesoros' goals for exporting frogs to the US? Will we be looking at one or two shipments a year? Just food for thought!

John


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## TonyI25 (Sep 18, 2013)

Dendro Dave said:


> Ditto... Andinobates aren't in the hobby at all unless there are still a few fulgeritus out there. Unless someone has been breeding them in secret and hoarding them and/or secretly spreading them to other hobbyists they are probably a lost cause at this point, unless someone like Tesoros brings in more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What kind of frogs are those? I second that these frogs would sell. They are amazing!


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

They are all andinobates, but I'm not familiar with the genus to name each individually.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

TonyI25 said:


> What kind of frogs are those? I second that these frogs would sell. They are amazing!


Meh, I knew I should have labeled them 

With Latin translations...
1. Andinobates cassidyhornae (Cassidy is horny)
2. Andinobates virolinensis (Your sister stands in line for STD's)
3. Andinobates dorisswansonae (Doris wants some)

Some of the Andinobates used to be considered Ranitomeya I think.


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## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

Hello I original pm'd Chris with this question but he is right I should have asked here too.

I would be very interested in seeing how Ivan has his terrariums set-up for his frogs (not just his obligates but others such as truncs). I'd like to get an idea on how to possibly setup an environment for them such as the presence of large broms, certain amounts of foliage, leaf litter, etc. I thought at first this was a weird question to ask but I'm sure somebody's thinking the same thing? 

Then again I am always looking to see other people's displays as well ha ha. I just skim the forum nowadays since I'm busy but perhaps is there any possibility of Tersoros working with other animals in the future besides frogs such as any reptiles? Then again someone may have asked this already.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Actually the Andinobates used to be in the Minyobates group, I was lucky enough to see some of the Fulgurita and another species we did not know the name of when I visited Colombia in the 90's. They seemed very touchy though, we collected some and put them in a tank with some moss and the next day they were all dead. We had no idea what had happened, maybe they toxed out but we really didn't know. They were found right along a road side, man they tiny but it struck me that there could literally be hundreds of species in these microhabitats throughout the rain forest and along roads cut through it.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

markpulawski said:


> Actually the Andinobates used to be in the Minyobates group, I was lucky enough to see some of the Fulgurita and another species we did not know the name of when I visited Colombia in the 90's. They seemed very touchy though, we collected some and put them in a tank with some moss and the next day they were all dead. We had no idea what had happened, maybe they toxed out but we really didn't know. They were found right along a road side, man they tiny but it struck me that there could literally be hundreds of species in these microhabitats throughout the rain forest and along roads cut through it.


A lot of them are also listed as Ranitomeya on many sites like ARKive. I found Minyobates Ophistomelas and Ranitomeya Ophistomelas, and ranitomeya bombetes which are all now considered Andinobates (right).

I know he mentioned Andinobates on the site, but I wonder if when Ivan mentioned Andinobates on the Tesoros website if he had some of those in mind as Ranitomeya. Who knows what they're being called in Colombia? Maybe the Minyobates and/or Ranitomeya name has stuck to some of the frogs down there instead of "Andinobates" 

Anyways I hope they prove to be more hardy then Mark's report


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

At one time, Andinobates was a part of the genus Ranitomeya, but the Andinobates species (I think they were the minutus clade while in Ranitomeya.) were monophyletic as a group and different enough from the other Ranitomeya, so they were given generic status. Prior to the Ranitomeya revision (Brown and Twomey et al.), it was believed that the minutus clade was sister taxa to the ventrimaculatus clade. Now that Andinobates has generic status, they and Ranitomeya are sister genera.

BTW, the Brown and Twomey et al. article has some nice pictures of Andinobates if that gives anyone more incentive to read it.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

The Minyobates was really more during the time before the Ranit reclassification, I think they were all or most of them reclassified at the same time thumbnails were changed to Ranitomeya. But I would think Ivan was looking at the classic Colombian species, Bombetes, Opisthomelas & Viriolenses, the last 2 being very abundant in the leaf litter where they occur. Actually there is really nothing on the list of small poison frogs from Colombia that would disappoint where he to offer them....all would be scooped up as quickly as the large Oophaga but at hopefully a lower price point. Knowing in the past smuggled Bombetes were offered for $1000 to $1200 a pair out of Europe one could assume asking $300+ for small species would be in line for Andinobates and $250 - $300 for the Ranits. I certainly hope he gets to the point of exporting these, if he does much of the financial stuff should start to take care of itself.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

As a day job, Ivan manages this place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RVud85UWuS4


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

that's a dream to visit! talk about a real treat to experience that.



Sherman said:


> As a day job, Ivan manages this place.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RVud85UWuS4


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

If they could just get andinobates permits and histo/sylvatica permits let alone lehmanni his business would have no problems. He could sell enough histos in one week to jump start his funding for future exports. Just needs help getting it off the ground. That supata sp. of ranitomeya is incredible too.

It might seem kind of like giving money to a guy so he can turn around and make money but honestly you won't ever see these frogs in 10+ years. It's just the only way they'll get into the hobby legally and in a decent way. I'm sure everyone would be happy getting frogs that they may never see outside of a zoo in their lifetime because someone finally got permits to export Colombian frogs.

-Nish


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Totally agree Nish. Its just the initial push they need if we want our frogs.

I just looked up Ranitomeya sp. "Supata" and its awesome!!! ........I want one.

John


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

In this case-I see nothing wrong with making money. In fact, that is part of what gave me incentive to donate. This is not a project that is going to require continual support once it is running. And that is good for everyone.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Dendro Dave wrote in http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/146314-q-tesoros-de-colombia-6.html#post1831858:

"As for blue truncs...

Others more attuned to the pulse of the dendroworld but it seems like, while a few years ago when these were rare, there was some demand... that now that demand has settled a bit. I could be wrong. New blood is always nice, but I don't know if the cost for permits would be justified by sales potential. You'r guy's thoughts?"

I do not think that a large effort would be warranted. I do not believe that this would be a profitable endeavor, even though _D. truncatus_ are beautiful.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Sherman said:


> Dendro Dave wrote in http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/146314-q-tesoros-de-colombia-6.html#post1831858:
> 
> "As for blue truncs...
> 
> ...


Oh sorry just woke up and been sick a few days. Got confused by the two similar threads with similar titles. 

Oh and and that should have been "others more attuned to the pulse of the dendroworld may know better then me.."


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Dendro Dave said:


> Oh sorry just woke up and been sick a few days. Got confused by the two similar threads with similar titles.
> 
> Oh and and that should have been "others more attuned to the pulse of the dendroworld may know better then me.."


No problem Dave, I understand the confusion. I should have named the threads differently so that they would be easier to differentiate. My bad.

With the impending obligate imports, would anyone like to share photos/ tips on their successful setups? This might help people get ready.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Hello all,
People expressed the desire to donate to Tesoros de Colombia with a percentage of their frog sales revenue. Ivan had a PayPal donation button added to his website that will make this much easier.

Tesoros de Colombia website

This is a direct path to help Tesoros. Your entire donation goes directly to Tesoros (minus the modest Paypal gift fee).

Thank your time,
Chris Sherman


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Sherman said:


> With the impending obligate imports, would anyone like to share photos/ tips on their successful setups? This might help people get ready.


Is there a tentative date for the obligate imports or is it just looking really hopeful right now?


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Guys the dutch magazine Dendrobatidae Nederland has featured an article on Ivan and his project. Unfortunately the English version is now no longer in circulation. But for any Dutch speakers among you I'm sure this will be a fascinating read

kind regards

Stu


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

thedude said:


> Is there a tentative date for the obligate imports or is it just looking really hopeful right now?


"About Oophagas we are sorting out some legal aspects that were there for some years, all of them mistakes from the authorities here and then they will start the process again for granting the permit for exporting Oophagas."

This is what I have from Ivan. It seems that we are still in the really hopeful stage. Slow, slow, slow. But the good news is that this is all building steam. I am confident this will happen. Unfortunately, *"When?"* is the big question that no one can answer.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Sherman said:


> "About Oophagas we are sorting out some legal aspects that were there for some years, all of them mistakes from the authorities here and then they will start the process again for granting the permit for exporting Oophagas."
> 
> This is what I have from Ivan. It seems that we are still in the really hopeful stage. Slow, slow, slow. But the good news is that this is all building steam. I am confident this will happen. Unfortunately, *"When?"* is the big question that no one can answer.


I'm a patient guy  I'm just happy to hear that it's hopeful. It would be great if this company was successful. The imports I've seen so far are amazing looking. Including my narrow banded aurotaenia.


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## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

Holy crap on a cracker...those Andinobates!


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Sherman said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Tesoros de Colombia website
> 
> Chris Sherman


Chris, this link isn`t working (for me anyway) can you point me in the direction for a one time donation.
Thanks


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Chris, this link isn`t working (for me anyway) can you point me in the direction for a one time donation.
> Thanks


It`s working now.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Sherman just tried to donate some funds, it says recipient is not set up to receive funds, any idea?


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

markpulawski said:


> Sherman just tried to donate some funds, it says recipient is not set up to receive funds, any idea?


Sorry Mark. I just saw this. I will email Ivan and see what I can find out.


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

Mark, if it doesn't work I set up a donation page for french people, you can use it if you want.
Go to DendroPedia - Fiches d'?levage de dendrobatidae and click on the Tesoros de colombia logo.
Otherwise if you have an android phone you can buy the tesoros de colombia app for 10euros that will be donated to tesoros : http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...90-tesoros-de-colombia-donations-android.html


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Chris et al...

Any update as to how Tesoros is progressing down there?


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Hey Chris,

I was wondering what was new as well. I realize things are slow in the way of getting permits (especially in Colombia as far as I can tell) but I keep wondering how things are going in general and if there are any reasonably projections as to what we can expect in the future.

-Nish


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## kblack3 (Mar 9, 2015)

So since shipments have now been made does anybody know if they are working with the defleri?


American Dad Living The American Dream


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

They are working with thumbnails at the moment, they are waiting on permits to acquire some but will be a few years


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## kblack3 (Mar 9, 2015)

Awesome I'll keep reminding myself patience is a virtue 


American Dad Living The American Dream


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Sorry that should have read, they are Not working with them at the moment


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Uh looks like something is wrong with the Tesoros web site: Like it's been hacked 

Says "owned" when I tried to go to it...

Hope it doesn't cause Ivan and the crew to much trouble.

Seems like there are way better uses of their hacking time: other then taking down a site promoting sustainable and legal frog exports, while helping with research, education, and a local economy of a not so prosperous place. 

In general I got nothin against a curious computer wiz, but this is like kicking a puppy just because you can:  ...(Which is bad, for those who actually don't know, or sadder yet... Don't care).


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Uh looks like something is wrong with the Tesoros web site: Like it's been hacked
> 
> Says "owned" when I tried to go to it...
> 
> ...


It's been that way for a while. At least since Frog Day. The only people that I can think of that would stand to gain anything from disrupting Tesoros would be smugglers, and flippers for illegal imports, so yeah, the kind of people that would kick puppies.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Dane said:


> It's been that way for a while. At least since Frog Day. The only people that I can think of that would stand to gain anything from disrupting Tesoros would be smugglers, and flippers for illegal imports, so yeah, the kind of people that would kick puppies.


Ah ya, those people... Amazing I didn't even consider that. 

Good Point!!!


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

Unfortunately it looks like they were using a very dated version of Wordpress to run the site on  Not very difficult to exploit and generally when you see 'owned' or another similar juvenile message, its someone searching for exploitable websites via bots and not a targeted attack. 

Hopefully they can get it fixed up soon.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Sorry about this folks. I did not see this until this morning.
I have contacted the person in charge of the website and it is back up and running with changes made to help prevent it from happening again.

As for what is new:
Get ready to see some pictures of blue form of _O. histrionicus_ in the next few days.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

I have plenty of blue histo pics


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Julio said:


> I have plenty of blue histo pics




Julio, where is the link to your Flickr account?

Ok, ok, let me rephrase that:

Get ready to see pictures (made in the USA) of some of the first, blue form _O. histrionicus_ legally imported into the USA.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Haha, the pics I have are some of the ones coming in and some of the breeders from tesoros


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

Julio said:


> Haha, the pics I have are some of the ones coming in and some of the breeders from tesoros


What are you waiting for?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Haha I posted a lot of pics on my Instagram and Facebook last week


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Sherman said:


> Sorry about this folks. I did not see this until this morning.
> I have contacted the person in charge of the website and it is back up and running with changes made to help prevent it from happening again.
> 
> As for what is new:
> Get ready to see some pictures of blue form of _O. histrionicus_ in the next few days.


*O. histrionica (Sorry, pet peeve)



Can't wait to see photos!


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Someone post links on DB please.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Frogtofall said:


> *O. histrionica (Sorry, pet peeve)
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait to see photos!


Correct! Thank you.
I'm still waiting on Ted Kahn's book and keep Lotters upstairs.
At least I didn't say _D. historionicus_.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

Julio said:


> Haha I posted a lot of pics on my Instagram and Facebook last week


Just saw them. Awesome!!!!!


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

The website was hit with another non-targeted attack and is currently down. This time they hit the entire hosting company, so this one might take a bit more time to solve. The right person is on the case (not me by the way) and will handle it. It should hopefully be up and running soon.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Back on track. Up and running.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Here's a question:

What lehmanni and histrionica morphs is Tesoros offering currently?

I'm seeing a lot of new frog morphs popping up on facebook, and a while back I only remember Tesoros offering like 2-3 morphs?


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

I am not sure what is currently available, but I know these have been released.

_O. lehmanni _: Red, yellow and cream.

_O. histrionica_: Redheads, Bullseyes, Anchicaya, and Blues.

It might be also worth mentioning here that WIKIRI has released these.

_O. sylvatica_: Parus, Puerto Quitos, and Pata Blancas.


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## tnorwood0811 (Sep 7, 2011)

Sherman said:


> I am not sure what is currently available, but I know these have been released.
> 
> _O. lehmanni _: Red, yellow and cream.
> 
> ...


Just catching up on everything... So are these listed what they have available to ship or has the shipment already taken place??


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

tnorwood0811 said:


> Just catching up on everything... So are these listed what they have available to ship or has the shipment already taken place??


They were offer d on dendrobase a few months back, shipment already came in last week


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## tnorwood0811 (Sep 7, 2011)

Julio said:


> They were offer d on dendrobase a few months back, shipment already came in last week




Thanks Julio! Hope everyone was able to get some awesome Oophagas!! Hate I missed out 


Cheers to the rain forest!!!


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