# Need help from an experienced keeper



## Smithy1987 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hi guys,

I'm looking after a friends dendrobates tinctorius azureus tank whilst his in hospital. There is a tiny baby in there that I don't know if he bought 4 and they bred or he brought 5. I have asked him but where he was in an accident he can't remember. 
I have found out that the breeder he got them from told him he didn't need to supplement them so I don't know if this is why but the tiny one is not well. He jumps once and just lays there. I have quarantined it but I don't know what else to do?


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## eek_420 (Jun 27, 2016)

I've was told to supplement every feeding with a calicium and once a month with a vitamin a I'm by far that experienced but that's what I do and completely trust the breeder I got my frogs from every bit of advice they give me pays off well with healthy and happier frogs I use repashy supplements


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## Smithy1987 (Dec 13, 2016)

I read up on them when he asked and so for the time I have had them I have been supplementing every feed with multi vitamin (exo) and calcium d3 (exo) but obviously the damage with the smaller frog would already be done wouldn't it? Could it be reversible or should I have the poor fella put to sleep?


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## Smithy1987 (Dec 13, 2016)

The adults obviously have been grown up without supplements will this affect the babies they have or with proper supplementation now babies will be healthier?


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## Smithy1987 (Dec 13, 2016)

This is a picture of the poor fella


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## Smithy1987 (Dec 13, 2016)

Just got in contact with Josh's frogs. They have confirmed it lacking calcium in the diet and having seizures through stress


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

If the breeder, in fact, told him that supplementation is not needed, he is a hack and should be avoided at all costs in the future. You are on the right track with your supplementation. You should be dusting with (I recommend) Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding. Once or twice a month, at most, you can dust with Repashy Vitamin A, though it is not 100% necessary with animals that are not of breeding age yet. Refrigerate the supplements once they are open and replace them every 6 months. 

If the little fella is still eating, it's possible that you could get enough calcium into him to correct the problem. However, he doesn't look good in that picture... I am not sure how long you have been dusting daily with Vitamin A, but that could be bad news, too. Calcium Plus is your every-feeding supplement. 

You are a good friend to step in and take care of your friend's frogs. It is hard enough when there is a good routine with good instructions. You have agreed to a huge burden. Good job coming on here and asking questions. 


Best of luck,

Mark


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## Smithy1987 (Dec 13, 2016)

Encyclia said:


> If the breeder, in fact, told him that supplementation is not needed, he is a hack and should be avoided at all costs in the future. You are on the right track with your supplementation. You should be dusting with (I recommend) Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding. Once or twice a month, at most, you can dust with Repashy Vitamin A, though it is not 100% necessary with animals that are not of breeding age yet. Refrigerate the supplements once they are open and replace them every 6 months.
> 
> If the little fella is still eating, it's possible that you could get enough calcium into him to correct the problem. However, he doesn't look good in that picture... I am not sure how long you have been dusting daily with Vitamin A, but that could be bad news, too. Calcium Plus is your every-feeding supplement.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mark.

I haven't been dusting vitamin A. I was using a multi vitamin is this the same?
Unfortunately I having just checked the poor fella he has passed :-(

But on a lighter note my friend has told me I can keep the frogs as I have done so well with them...Looks like I'm officially a PDF owner...


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

So sorry to hear it.

I would pick up some Repashy Calcium Plus, at least, and start dusting with that rather than with some other product. There are lots of supplements on the market, but many are not suitable for dart frogs. It would be best to buy a new jar/pouch of Calcium Plus and keep it refrigerated from the beginning. Make sure you get the fly production part down, too. That is one of the most important things.

Welcome to dart ownership  You've had a rough start, but it gets better.

I hope you have better luck in the future.

Mark


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Encyclia said:


> Once or twice a month, at most, you can dust with Repashy Vitamin A, though it is not 100% necessary with animals that are not of breeding age yet.


I would greatly urge caution in making the statement about not being necessary until they are breeding age as the supplement currently being used has beta carotene as the source of vitamin A and as a result the juvenile frogs can be deficient in vitamin A (and at risk from multiple issues including hypovitaminosis of A) well before breeding age. 

If a supplement containing preformed vitamin A in the form of retiny acetate or palmitate has been used since metamorphosis, then the additional vitamin A is often unnecessary but outside of that it should be considered that the froglets have a good chance to be deficient in vitamin A reserves. 

The straight vitamin A powder can be used as often as 4 times a month if there are signs of deficiency and possibly more frequently under the direction of a veterinarian (although vets have access to better ways to dose vitamin A). There is a lot of hype over the risk of vitamin A toxicity that is pretty much based on dogma well entrenched in the hobby. You can just as easily have problems with vitamin D3, K, or even calcium as you can with vitamin A. 


some comments 

Ed


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Ed said:


> I would greatly urge caution in making the statement about not being necessary until they are breeding age as the supplement currently being used has beta carotene as the source of vitamin A and as a result the juvenile frogs can be deficient in vitamin A (and at risk from multiple issues including hypovitaminosis of A) well before breeding age.
> 
> If a supplement containing preformed vitamin A in the form of retiny acetate or palmitate has been used since metamorphosis, then the additional vitamin A is often unnecessary but outside of that it should be considered that the froglets have a good chance to be deficient in vitamin A reserves.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, Ed - are you saying that Repashy Calcium Plus has beta carotene as the Vitamin A source? Or were you referring to the supplement he had been using?

Thanks,

Mark


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Encyclia said:


> Just to clarify, Ed - are you saying that Repashy Calcium Plus has beta carotene as the Vitamin A source? Or were you referring to the supplement he had been using?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark


In post #3 the OP lists the supplements he has been using 


> multi vitamin (exo) and calcium d3 (exo)


In this case exoterra supplements which use beta carotene as their sole source of vitamin A. As has been repeated multiple times, beta carotene as a source of vitamin A for anurans is problematic as there is strong evidence they they either cannot convert it or they can only minimally convert it. 

Repashy products contain preformed vitamin A in the form of retinyl palimatate along with a variety of carotenoids besides beta carotene. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Ed said:


> In post #3 the OP lists the supplements he has been using
> 
> 
> In this case exoterra supplements which use beta carotene as their sole source of vitamin A. As has been repeated multiple times, beta carotene as a source of vitamin A for anurans is problematic as there is strong evidence they they either cannot convert it or they can only minimally convert it.
> ...


Ok, that's what I thought. My comments were in the context that I was recommending switching to Repashy Calcium Plus as the every-feeding supplement. With Calcium Plus and a 2-4 week rotation on Vitamin A, I wouldn't think that there would be any shortfall of Vitamin A unless long-term breeding is occurring. You are correct to point out, though, that he hasn't been dosing with a useful form of Vitamin A to date and that extra supplementation might be necessary while the OP gets the supplementation regime on track. Thanks for the clarification 

Mark


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## Smithy1987 (Dec 13, 2016)

Switched to Repashy guys. Have brought vitamin a as well to cycle in once a month. Cheers for the advice much appreciated.


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