# Possibility of Chytrid?



## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

I had two of three froglets die in the last week. Another is dying, I think. I wanna check to see if it’s possibly Chytrid that killed them. The two that died had orange skin, both died with their legs out, and had discolored legs. Additonally, they mostly sat out in the open, and had little interest in eating (signs of Chytrid, according to google). Is Chytrid likely?


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

Frog_Cello said:


> I had two of three froglets die in the last week. Another is dying, I think. I wanna check to see if it’s possibly Chytrid that killed them. The two that died had orange skin, both died with their legs out, and had discolored legs. Additonally, they mostly sat out in the open, and had little interest in eating (signs of Chytrid, according to google). Is Chytrid likely?


I just checked. The last one died.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

@Frog_Cello , from what seller did you get these frogs? That will give a big clue as to whether to suspect a pathogen.

Also, where did you get your plants, and how did you disinfect them before putting them in the viv?

Another factor that I don't think has been mentioned in the discussions on your experience here is the water. You're using treated tap water, correct?


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

If you want a proper diagnosis take it to a vet to get an autopsy done.


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> @Frog_Cello , from what seller did you get these frogs? That will give a big clue as to whether to suspect a pathogen.
> 
> Also, where did you get your plants, and how did you disinfect them before putting them in the viv?
> 
> Another factor that I don't think has been mentioned in the discussions on your experience here is the water. You're using treated tap water, correct?


I did the boiling water dip. I used RO water. They are from Frogs’n’things


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

Frog_Cello said:


> I did the boiling water dip. I used RO water. They are from Frogs’n’things


Plants are from Neherp and a wandering Jew in my house


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

What is the boiling water dip, exactly?


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> What is the boiling water dip, exactly?


Dunk the plant in boiling water. I think I read it on Reddit or something


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> What is the boiling water dip, exactly?


If it is Chytrid, what should be my next course of action? Do I need to completely gut the tank?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Frog_Cello said:


> Dunk the plant in boiling water. I think I read it on Reddit or something


For how long? 

If you bought the frogs from a general herp flipper, I'd personally be concerned about a pathogen. In this case, while I think getting a necropsy would be very advisable I personally wouldn't suspect a pathogen. But the pattern of losses seems to be above and beyond what I'd suspect from just flaws in husbandry.

So, just to confirm, you've been using RO water for misting the frogs?


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> For how long?
> 
> If you bought the frogs from a general herp flipper, I'd personally be concerned about a pathogen. In this case, while I think getting a necropsy would be very advisable I personally wouldn't suspect a pathogen. But the pattern of losses seems to be above and beyond what I'd suspect from just flaws in husbandry.
> 
> So, just to confirm, you've been using RO water for misting the frogs?


Yes.


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> For how long?
> 
> If you bought the frogs from a general herp flipper, I'd personally be concerned about a pathogen. In this case, while I think getting a necropsy would be very advisable I personally wouldn't suspect a pathogen. But the pattern of losses seems to be above and beyond what I'd suspect from just flaws in husbandry.
> 
> So, just to confirm, you've been using RO water for misting the frogs?


I do want to continue with the hobby, however, if husbandry is what killed them, it would be great to know what to change. I do plan on giving vitamin A monthly (my vitamin A arrived while I was removing the dead frog from the tank).


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

For how long do the plants get dipped in boiling water for the 'boiling water dip'?


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> For how long do the plants get dipped in boiling water for the 'boiling water dip'?


Just a quick in and out. I am beginning to suspect that is not sufficient.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

My advice, regardless of what the cause of death was: completely start over again. Disinfect EVERYTHING with bleach.

The only way to know is it was chytrid is to send samples for testing / visit a vet.



Frog_Cello said:


> Just a quick in and out. I am beginning to suspect that is not sufficient.


Definitely wouldn't be guaranteed to have killed any pathogens on the plants.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'll go on record here as pointing out that the "boiling water dip" isn't likely adequate to do anything good at all. If there's any actual evidence to the contrary, I hope someone posts it here. There's abundant published evidence that a 10 min dip in 1 part Chlorox regular bleach in 9 parts water kills all interesting pathogens (it kills predatory flatworms, too, per my own dropping them in bleach water).

I'd recommend not taking 'read it on Reddit' (or anywhere else for that matter, including here, including what I or anyone writes) as anything more than a clue to do some deeper digging into a subject. 

If it were me I would 100% strip the viv and bleach everything (it would be a good opportunity for a redesign, anyway). But I do that between every healthy frog transfer, too. Makes troubleshooting future problems much easier, by being able to rule out one instance of possible pathogen exposure.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Frog_Cello said:


> Dunk the plant in boiling water. I think I read it on Reddit or something


I can't fathom why anyone would recommend blanching plants as a means of sterilisation unless for human consumption. I'd imagine it'd sooner kill the plants than it would the pests -- they're known as pests for a reason.

You should follow what others on the forum (and even your plant vendor) recommends and instead bleach dip your plants before introducing them to your tank:





NEHERP - Vivarium Plant Processing Procedure


New England Herpetoculture - Vivarium plant processing procedure



www.neherpetoculture.com




You can find the bleach to water ratio typically recommended by users with a quick search. I haven't done the maths in a while but I believe it was stronger than what Neherp recommends.


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I'll go on record here as pointing out that the "boiling water dip" isn't likely adequate to do anything good at all. If there's any actual evidence to the contrary, I hope someone posts it here. There's abundant published evidence that a 10 min dip in 1 part Chlorox regular bleach in 9 parts water kills all interesting pathogens (it kills predatory flatworms, too, per my own dropping them in bleach water).
> 
> I'd recommend not taking 'read it on Reddit' (or anywhere else for that matter, including here, including what I or anyone writes) as anything more than a clue to do some deeper digging into a subject.
> 
> If it were me I would 100% strip the viv and bleach everything (it would be a good opportunity for a redesign, anyway). But I do that between every healthy frog transfer, too. Makes troubleshooting future problems much easier, by being able to rule out one instance of possible pathogen exposure.


The False bottom and everything too?


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

Frog_Cello said:


> The False bottom and everything too?


I might just completely get rid of everything and sell the tank and get an Insitu selva


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Frog_Cello said:


> The False bottom and everything too?


Yes. EVERY. THING.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

You really need a necropsy to determine chytrid or other pathogens. I seriously doubt it was that. My friend you brought in young delicate frogs, placed them in a tank that was bone dry, moved them several times, gave them no time to destress once they were in their own bins. I think you mentioned something about sugar water??? I'm 90% sure your frogs died of poor husbandry and stress.

Vitamin A isn't necessary for froglets btw. If anything it's dangerous. We give vitamin A to breeding adults because they need an additional source to produce healthy eggs.

If ever you say to yourself I did this because "I think I read it on reddit" you've made a very wrong turn.

Your best bet is to just toss/sterilize everything, and start over. Oh. And don't buy any more frogs until summer when you've got plenty of research under your belt and your vivarium is fully grown in and ready for frogs.


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Yes. EVERY. THING.


Ok.


JasonE said:


> You really need a necropsy to determine chytrid or other pathogens. I seriously doubt it was that. My friend you brought in young delicate frogs, placed them in a tank that was bone dry, moved them several times, gave them no time to destress once they were in their own bins. I think you mentioned something about sugar water??? I'm 90% sure your frogs died of poor husbandry and stress.
> 
> Vitamin A isn't necessary for froglets btw. If anything it's dangerous. We give vitamin A to breeding adults because they need an additional source to produce healthy eggs.
> 
> ...





JasonE said:


> You really need a necropsy to determine chytrid or other pathogens. I seriously doubt it was that. My friend you brought in young delicate frogs, placed them in a tank that was bone dry, moved them several times, gave them no time to destress once they were in their own bins. I think you mentioned something about sugar water??? I'm 90% sure your frogs died of poor husbandry and stress.
> 
> Vitamin A isn't necessary for froglets btw. If anything it's dangerous. We give vitamin A to breeding adults because they need an additional source to produce healthy eggs.
> 
> ...


that’s what I suspected, I just wanted to check because it matched symptoms online.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

JasonE said:


> Vitamin A isn't necessary for froglets btw. If anything it's dangerous. We give vitamin A to breeding adults because they need an additional source to produce healthy eggs.


Just to clarify this (and I know Jason knows this): froglets may not need supplemental Vitamin A dosing, but they do still very much need Vitamin A.


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## friendlyyleg (4 mo ago)

JasonE said:


> I think you mentioned something about sugar water??? I'm 90% sure your frogs died of poor husbandry and stress.


I saw that bizarre post mentioning the sugar water soak but it had already been applied before anyone pointed it out in the discussion. Is that actually something that people recommend to others? Is it perhaps piggybacking off the calcium clay dish squatting method that I've seen some do for adult frogs?


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Frog_Cello said:


> I might just completely get rid of everything and sell the tank and get an Insitu selva


You've got to slow down. All this rushing from one thing to the next is how you got to this point. I seriously doubt it's chytrid.

You have a pretty good idea of what to do moving forward. What tank do you have no?


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Chris S said:


> Just to clarify this (and I know Jason knows this): froglets may not need supplemental Vitamin A dosing, but they do still very much need Vitamin A.


I am sorry. I should have made that perfectly clear. Thanks. They definitely need vitamin A. Just no additional supplementation.


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

S2G said:


> You've got to slow down. All this rushing from one thing to the next is how you got to this point. I seriously doubt it's chytrid.
> 
> You have a pretty good idea of what to do moving forward. What tank do you have no?


I have a repti zoo.


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

JasonE said:


> I am sorry. I should have made that perfectly clear. Thanks. They definitely need vitamin A. Just no additional supplementation.


Ah, ok. Good to know


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

S2G said:


> You've got to slow down. All this rushing from one thing to the next is how you got to this point. I seriously doubt it's chytrid.
> 
> You have a pretty good idea of what to do moving forward. What tank do you have no?


I agree that my own impatience was likely a large factor. Whenever something happened that wasn’t supposed to, I panicked and likely made it worse in my efforts to fix the initial problem.


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

friendlyyleg said:


> I saw that bizarre post mentioning the sugar water soak but it had already been applied before anyone pointed it out in the discussion. Is that actually something that people recommend to others? Is it perhaps piggybacking off the calcium clay dish squatting method that I've seen some do for adult frogs?


I got pretty freaked out when it wasn’t moving at all. I remembered reading something about sugar water, so I dug a bit and found the exact ratio. I acknowledge it was impulsive and a poor decision


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

JasonE said:


> You really need a necropsy to determine chytrid or other pathogens. I seriously doubt it was that. My friend you brought in young delicate frogs, placed them in a tank that was bone dry, moved them several times, gave them no time to destress once they were in their own bins. I think you mentioned something about sugar water??? I'm 90% sure your frogs died of poor husbandry and stress.
> 
> Vitamin A isn't necessary for froglets btw. If anything it's dangerous. We give vitamin A to breeding adults because they need an additional source to produce healthy eggs.
> 
> ...


I definitely want to wait. I feel bad enough having killed three froglets.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Frog_Cello said:


> I have a repti zoo.


Which one & do you have pics? Do you have fly cultures going & springtails?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

friendlyyleg said:


> I saw that bizarre post mentioning the sugar water soak but it had already been applied before anyone pointed it out in the discussion. Is that actually something that people recommend to others? Is it perhaps piggybacking off the calcium clay dish squatting method that I've seen some do for adult frogs?


People recommend procedures like sugar water soaks, and calcium clay dishes, to achieve specific goals in specific circumstances. Unless a keeper understands what the procedure (or supplement, or piece of equipment, or whatever) is intended to do and how it works and how it applies to a certain situation then it is best to figure all this out before proceeding. 

There's an enormous amount of 'I read X is good for dart frogs so I did it' that is really counterproductive since it is done without, or at any rate before, comprehending it.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I'm sorry that the last one also perished. 

In every photo I saw of your frogs, they were covered in substrate. That tells me that they probably didn't have a thick enough layer of leaf litter to keep them from having that amount of contact with the substrate. If you're going to do more tanks in the future, that would be one thing among many to address. 

I also remember that you initially built your tank using potting soil. If I remember correctly, you had planned to use cocofiber, and were advised in early September to use ABG mix before you built the tank. You ended up using potting soil from outside, which you had used for a potted plant, and then removed from that and placed in your tank, if I read and understood your comments correctly. I think this played a role in your frogs' demise.

September 7th:


Frog_Cello said:


> What do you suggest for substrate?


The response: 


fishingguy12345 said:


> ABG substrate. With a thick layer of leaf litter on top.



November 4th:


Frog_Cello said:


> The soil was outside, but I moved it to an indoor potted plant several months ago


I agree very strongly that you must slow down and spend WAY more time reading before you begin to build a new tank or even think about additional frogs if you want to be successful with them in the future. I think that this summer is still too soon. I also think that if there's a *good DB member* in your area, you would really benefit from spending some significant time with them learning how to build your tank and care for your frogs.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Loosing frogs really sucks. But, I can tell you I have killed more then 3 frogs. What happened happened. There is no going back. Use it as a lessen and don't make the same mistakes.

Leucs are a great starter frog. You were unprepared for getting dart frogs. A good strong leuc froglet could endure your learning curve. You got some pretty small froglets. They are kinda delicate at that point. 

If you want to continue in this hobby I would recommend spending a month reading the new posts here that interest you. Basically, start over and start asking questions.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

bulbophyllum said:


> If you want to continue in this hobby I would recommend spending a month reading the new posts here that interest you


Agreed. 

I would start with the following:

Vivarium 101

And then build logs to see how other people have built their vivariums. 

Here are a few of mine:
18x18x24" exo terra build, Oophaga pumilio...

36 x 18 x 36 " exo Terra build

Build log: 18x12x36" vertical terrarium


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

Woodswalker said:


> I'm sorry that the last one also perished.
> 
> In every photo I saw of your frogs, they were covered in substrate. That tells me that they probably didn't have a thick enough layer of leaf litter to keep them from having that amount of contact with the substrate. If you're going to do more tanks in the future, that would be one thing among many to address.
> 
> ...


I did end up removing the soil before putting frogs in. That being said, I do agree that I would definitely benefit from slowing down.


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

bulbophyllum said:


> Loosing frogs really sucks. But, I can tell you I have killed more then 3 frogs. What happened happened. There is no going back. Use it as a lessen and don't make the same mistakes.
> 
> Leucs are a great starter frog. You were unprepared for getting dart frogs. A good strong leuc froglet could endure your learning curve. You got some pretty small froglets. They are kinda delicate at that point.
> 
> If you want to continue in this hobby I would recommend spending a month reading the new posts here that interest you. Basically, start over and start asking questions.


Yeah. I’ll gut the vivarium next week and maybe spend the next few months reading. As far as I can see, my biggest mistakes were:
Fussed with the frogs too much
Put them in an enclosure that was too dry
Did the sugar bath thing on a stressed froglet
Maybe initially putting them in a tank that was too big and not grown in enough?
Not waiting to establish a cleanup crew fully
Putting sphag carpeting


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Frog_Cello said:


> As far as I can see, my biggest mistakes were:


In my view, your mistakes were:
1. Jumping in without having done enough research (i.e. poor tank set up)
2. Panicking everytime something went wrong and (often) overcorrecting
3. Helicopter parenting (I check on my froglets *maybe* once a month besides feeding and watering them).


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (Jan 14, 2022)

My first frog was a one or two year old Auratus. I can’t imagine starting off with froglets, that’s really brave! My frog was TERRIBLY skinny when I got him, due to poor husbandry and ignorance. Good supplementation, peace and quiet seemed to turn him around, as well as getting a fecal to make sure he didn’t have internal parasites. I also built my viv over the course of 2 months, then let it grow in for 6, monitoring the humidity and temp the entire time. Often, “building” my vivarium involved sitting next to the tank and staring at it, carefully planning where to put each thing. I still read the boards all the time, there is always more to learn. Keep trying! You’ll get it.


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

ArtTeacherFrogger said:


> My first frog was a one or two year old Auratus. I can’t imagine starting off with froglets, that’s really brave! My frog was TERRIBLY skinny when I got him, due to poor husbandry and ignorance. Good supplementation, peace and quiet seemed to turn him around, as well as getting a fecal to make sure he didn’t have internal parasites. I also built my viv over the course of 2 months, then let it grow in for 6, monitoring the humidity and temp the entire time. Often, “building” my vivarium involved sitting next to the tank and staring at it, carefully planning where to put each thing. I still read the boards all the time, there is always more to learn. Keep trying! You’ll get it.


That’s my plan. I definitely rushed the building the first time.


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## Frog_Cello (4 mo ago)

ArtTeacherFrogger said:


> I can’t imagine starting off with froglets, that’s really brave!


To be perfectly honest, I had zero idea froglets would be any more difficult than adults. I assumed the two were basically the same as soon as they morphed out of tads. If I find adults, I will definitely get those for my next frogs.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Frog_Cello said:


> To be perfectly honest, I had zero idea froglets would be any more difficult than adults. I assumed the two were basically the same as soon as they morphed out of tads. If I find adults, I will definitely get those for my next frogs.


Unless they are super tiny, I agree with you. I always treated the risk for well-started froglets the same as buying adults (which is a lot less common).


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

With adults from some sources in some situations, there is additional risk over well started froglets. Adults sometimes get dumped because they're going downhill or have been mistreated for long enough that turning them around may be impossible -- many CL finds are like this. 

Considering herps generally, I'd be much more likely to buy younger animals than adults, since too often adults are being sold to pass troubles to someone else. Exceptions for frogs would be someone who bought a group to pull a pair from and has extras, and from the actual breeder of the frog who had a hard time selling because of market forces or similar.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Socratic Monologue said:


> With adults from some sources in some situations, there is additional risk over well started froglets. Adults sometimes get dumped because they're going downhill or have been mistreated for long enough that turning them around may be impossible -- many CL finds are like this.
> 
> Considering herps generally, I'd be much more likely to buy younger animals than adults, since too often adults are being sold to pass troubles to someone else. Exceptions for frogs would be someone who bought a group to pull a pair from and has extras, and from the actual breeder of the frog who had a hard time selling because of market forces or similar.


This is a really excellent point. There are tons of reasons for someone to get rid of adult frogs and not all of them are good. Good catch, SM.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Froglets are easy unless it's a tiny pumilio or something. Leucs, tincs, auratus & terribs are ridiculously easy....IF you're properly setup. My main problem with froglets is there's always a couple kamikaze's. 

Only buy from trusted sources. Once you're ready I'll send you this ladies email I bought my last group from. Shipping sucks, but it's worth it to get animals you know are healthy.


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