# Frog shed vs. supplements



## CharValley (Feb 29, 2016)

I'm just curious and this question has been eating at me for a couple weeks.

We know that frogs will eat their "sluffed" skin shed and also that newly formed tadpoles will also eat the skin shed as they are carried by the parent frog.

Has any study ever been done on the actual vitamin, protein and/or supplemental content of the shed skin?

I'm curious if some of the vitamin and supplements that the frogs need isn't carried by the frog in its skin and as it is shed some of those nutrients that might be harder to absorb and/or are usually found in the foods that are ingested, if these might not be collected on the outer skin and this is another source of the calcium's and other needed supplements. Especially the ones that we are finding so hard to get into their captive diets in an absorbable form.

The frogs will use clay pits to sit in and the idea is that they are absorbing the calciums and other minerals from the wet clay. Perhaps it is also kept in micro form on the skin and as they eat the shed it is just like taking their daily vitamins.

I am in NO WAY thinking about or referring to dusting the frogs, I am curious if this is how the frogs are able to get some of those vitamin/mineral's into their system that we are trying so hard to supplement.

If that is the case maybe there is another way that we can use this to our collective advantage in producing healthier frogs and reduce some of the issues with developing eggs thru the morphing process.

Just wondering,

Charlie


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

Dang it! Now you got me wondering too. I can't find an absolute answer to your question right now. But check out this study: Nutrition and Health in Amphibian Husbandry
*Title: Nutrition and Health in Amphibian Husbandry*
I'm still reading it, but I've gotten far enough to know it has a lot of info close to your querie.


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## CharValley (Feb 29, 2016)

Thanks Ravage for the link.

I know there are some frogs that seem impossible to raise without parent assistance and even feeding eggs from a different species of dendro does not seem to work. So there must be something that we are missing that is species specific.

I will read that article and hopefully find some answers. Thanks again for finding it and linking it for all that are interested can read for themselves. If you run into some information that makes you more curious please post it and lets see if we can't find some new information that we can all use for a healthier hobby.

Charlie


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## CharValley (Feb 29, 2016)

I have started reading this article and I highly recommend ALL members read this, if only to bring the importance of diet and supplements needed to support the health of our frogs, developing tadpoles and in the actual breeding cycle.

Awesome Link Ravage! Thank you very much!

Charlie


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CharValley said:


> Thanks Ravage for the link.
> 
> I know there are some frogs that seem impossible to raise without parent assistance and even feeding eggs from a different species of dendro does not seem to work. So there must be something that we are missing that is species specific.


Actually people have successfully reared obligates fed the eggs of other obligates. one of the things that has come out in more recent years is that in egg feeding tadpoles that some of the fats are absorbed unaltered from the eggs. This is the problem with all of the attempts to feed obligate eggfeeders on chicken egg yolks. The chicken eggs don't have the proper mixture of fats for the tadpoles hence the problems with the growth. 

A second thing is that there are differences in the thickness and make up of the egg membranes between different frog species so if they are feeding them an egg that is harder for them to penetrate to ingest the egg this can change the caloric intake and may be another issue (or could end up causing digestion issues). 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

With respect to your original question, the frogs aren't going to utilize the dead layer of cells as a place to store nutrients and minerals. For minerals as an example the frog would have to actively export the nutrients to the skin which is a loss of energy. Now I am sure that incidental contamination of the skin surface will be acquired but as an active storage location I'm going to say it is very unlikely (as there would be a lot of loss to the environment). 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

I tend to agree, however.
The skin is a major excretory organ, and not only toxins, but excess vitamins etc. can be exuded when there is an excess, so there is more than just a bunch of dead cells. Thyroid hormones regulate the "sloughing" in amphibians ( or so I've been told) and there is precedent in the re-ingestion of biologically "costly" substances by animals (eg: venom). There is also the bacterial component, healthy micro flora is just as important to amphibians as it is to ourselves. I just saw a study about this: shedding as a method of buffering cutaneous bacterial levels. This was suggested as a possible mechanism of immune defense. It also had the hilarious methodology of marking the skin with L'Oreal lipstick to indicate when sloughing had occurred (Lipstick on a frog).
I think there are a number of possible reasons they eat their skin and this would be an interesting thing to study. Quite likely they do it for multiple reasons. Nature loves to recycle.
Study here: First line of defence: the role of sloughing in the regulation of cutaneous microbes in frogs
Answer: still elusive.


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## CharValley (Feb 29, 2016)

Thanks again Ravage, I think you bring out good articles that are looking into this subject and I'm still enjoying (I have to google a lot) the first link, so I am looking forward to reading this new one.

I agree putting lipstick on a frog sounds a bit extreme (they have more than sufficient beautiful coloring without adding lipstick lol).

There is one question to "Ed's" reply about the slough being more or less useless as providing minimal if any benefit at all is.

WHY, if it has very little or no benefit and contains virtually all dead cells and only "incidental contamination of the skin surface", do they spend the energy to eat the slough? It would seem that if it was of little or no benefit then why not slough it like most reptiles and just leave it behind.

There are many things about the life, nutrient needs and sources that they are collected from that are just beginning to be explored. To discard the fact that they eat the skin slough, lay in mud pools of mineral clays and even possibly collect free floating algae on their skin from the water pools they visit in the isolated places such as brom leaf cups and collection points in the knot hole of trees, seem to be well worth the study.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ravage said:


> I tend to agree, however.
> The skin is a major excretory organ, and not only toxins, but excess vitamins etc. can be exuded when there is an excess, so there is more than just a bunch of dead cells. Thyroid hormones regulate the "sloughing" in amphibians ( or so I've been told) and there is precedent in the re-ingestion of biologically "costly" substances by animals (eg: venom). There is also the bacterial component, healthy micro flora is just as important to amphibians as it is to ourselves. I just saw a study about this: shedding as a method of buffering cutaneous bacterial levels. This was suggested as a possible mechanism of immune defense. It also had the hilarious methodology of marking the skin with L'Oreal lipstick to indicate when sloughing had occurred (Lipstick on a frog).
> I think there are a number of possible reasons they eat their skin and this would be an interesting thing to study. Quite likely they do it for multiple reasons. Nature loves to recycle.
> Study here: First line of defence: the role of sloughing in the regulation of cutaneous microbes in frogs
> Answer: still elusive.


I'm not arguing that there isn't a net benefit from consuming the shed skin, what I'm pointing out is the idea that the layer of skin that is going to slough daily is a *storage location *for nutrients is problematic. We can see that this is the case as the frogs are not sloughing the layer of skin that is used for storage (example carotenoids). 

Even the toxins on the skin aren't stored solely on the portion of the skin to be shed. The majority of the toxins are stored in granular glands and aren't secreted until there is an appropriate stimulus and are part of the skin layer that are not shed .... 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

I've been still looking, but not coming up with much new. There is a 1993 article in the Journal of Herpetology, but it's doesn't have any more answers, although it did make an interesting suggestion: by eating the skin, amphibians may be hiding their presence from predators. I agree with Ed that it would be a strange strategy to store nutrients and re-intake them daily. My suggestion was that excess nutrients might be ejected and then later consumed, but daily, as an ongoing survival strategy, that's a head scratcher.
I think the previous article on bacterial reduction might be reason number one. Many pathogens are doomed once they meet digestive acids. But nature loves multi purposing, so maybe there are multiple reason for dermatophagy (eating your skin).
One of my favorite anecdotal stories is the one about the creation of Gator-aide. Sports Doctors at the University of Florida analysed the sweat of athletes to see what compounds were excreted by sweat as the result of heavy physical activity. They hypothesized (without much basis) that this accounted to a loss of salts and electrolytes that should be replaced. So they made Gator-aide to restore this "lost" fluid.
Of course, the skin is an excretory organ, and there was no consideration given that perhaps what is lost is actually "waste"; the body in it's wisdom conserving what is essential. It is possibly equivalent to measuring the constituents of urine and making a "drink" to replace them. Yum.
Think about that the next time you go for a "sports drink". 
So it seems that someone needs to study the sloughed skin itself. Anyone need a research project out there? We'll all be very interested if you do.


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## CharValley (Feb 29, 2016)

I agree ravage, there is probably less benefit from the animal using it's skin and the slough as a possible storage place. 

My thoughts lean towards the idea of eating the slough to collect the nutrients, micro insects and possible plant materials, algae and such that may adhere to the skin before and during the slough and consuming activity.

Using the consuming of the slough as a way to misdirect or avoid predators seems reasonable but then again if the scent of the amphibian is left by the skin and slime are strong enough to be used for tracking then stopping to eat it when it is at its weakest point (usually done during the waking period) would also seem to leave it at it's most vulnerable point of attack as well, although I wouldn't want to leave behind evidence for a predator to consume and relocate the trail.

During it's sleep stage I find that many of my frogs especially my Leuc's like to hide in depressions in the soil and foliage. I had one tank that after I moved the group out of it I found that small tunnel like depressions had been created by the adults. They penetrated about 3 inches deep on a vertical after the initial decline from the digging process. The Varadero adults I have seem to like to climb inside crevasses between the standing cork logs and the soil + moss packing that I used for the brom's I put into carved out holes in the logs.

I see the Varadero doing this a lot towards the evening, I can't say they sleep inside because I've yet to catch them climbing out during the morning. But, I am wondering if during the hours of sleep and the idea that they are in area's that are in nature most likely to be the fresh area of decay. Ripe with small eatable's, molds and other beneficial micro organisms that could easily collect on the skin during in-activity times for the frogs.

These are of course all hypotheticals and of course I can't say that digging and or hiding in depressions are common in the wild. Just thoughts of my own from observation of the few captive critters that I tend.

I also notice that the algae that grows on the sides of the glass are favorite spots for them to climb on and feed, especially after I wipe down all the detritus they seem to enjoy leaving on the glass instead of the plants and soil.

Like you said so well "So it seems that someone needs to study the sloughed skin itself. Anyone need a research project out there? We'll all be very interested if you do. "

I still think there is something here, just one of those things that seem of little impact but small "keys" often open big things.

Charlie


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## CharValley (Feb 29, 2016)

I also wanted to say thank's for all your research and interest in this. Seems like there is one thing that was definitely discovered during your research.... very little research has actually been done on the subject.

Many thanks for the hours of searching you've obviously done!

Charlie


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## ajimenez (Apr 12, 2016)

Very interesting, ive never heard of people using chicken yolk! Personally, I wouldn't try lol.


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