# Panamanian Frog Farm?



## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

From an international classified post - thoughts?

The farm


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

Looks like a big holding facility for pumilio and possible breeding facility for auratus. I'd like to see closeups of the inside of the cages to see if auratus are in small groups or are they just holding tanks for the auratus?

Also, what is up with upside down cups for the pumilio?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I noticed that as well, haha


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## jckee1 (Mar 22, 2011)

This looks a lot like the other frog farm pics I've seen before. I would guess they collect wild frogs and eventually they are going to have some reproduction. Hard to tell whether the frogs they are sending really are bred on the facility or just collected and sold as farm raised.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

my question is why is there 2 posts on this farm.
i just read about it on rnkot post.
unless time wise this was posted before the other one was. i never look at the posting times.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Two separate conversations. His was posted in the classifieds. Mine was posted as a means of furthering conversations about the status of this frog farm.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I posted this site back in April and it is discussed in another thread.



JJuchems said:


> I have spent a lot of time researching this topic (off forums) looking for hard evidence here are a few quick links I have found online that I can share. There are actual pictures of farming practices.
> 
> Pumilio Farm:
> welcome
> ...


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## jckee1 (Mar 22, 2011)

It looks like the only thing keeping them in is a flap of material folded inward.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

looks pretty good to me. 

and isnt that the point? take some wild animals put them in an enclosure and get breeding? i mean we can all guess at whether they are breeding or not, but IMO its just that. a guess.

as far as the set up it looks fairly well thought out, although i think i'd like to see a shipment that big get a little better packaging, they seem to have the basics of the boxes down.

james


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Actually - it was posted in "Vendor Information". I can't tell what the heck his point is, so I moved it to general. 

It looks like he's just parroting an ad he received? He's not trying to sell anything himself.

But yeah - show us some closeups of eggs/tads and maybe we might be more convinced.

s


stemcellular said:


> Two separate conversations. His was posted in the classifieds. Mine was posted as a means of furthering conversations about the status of this frog farm.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

james67 said:


> looks pretty good to me.
> 
> and isnt that the point? take some wild animals put them in an enclosure and get breeding? i mean we can all guess at whether they are breeding or not, but IMO its just that. a guess.
> 
> ...


I think there is a reasonable chance that auratus are being bred in decent numbers, but the pumilio were in such a huge density, I think any eggs would be eaten or stomped on.

I should add, that calling it a farm, at least for pumilio is a misnomer. It is just not cost effective to rear these frogs to adult size and sell them for $5-$10 when you can pay pennies to locals to catch them. Sure there will be accidental breeding successes but nothing regular (for pumilio).


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Scott said:


> Actually - it was posted in "Vendor Information". I can't tell what the heck his point is, so I moved it to general.
> 
> It looks like he's just parroting an ad he received? He's not trying to sell anything himself.
> 
> ...


I believe he was asking for information on if the frogs were actually farmed, as opposed to wild collected, and just thrown in elaborate pens. As to skirt exportation laws


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I have a feeling this is a fairly old website--I think I recall seeing images of a facility very similar to these ones a number of years ago. This might just be a defunct project/site.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Similar pictures were post by Marcus while back, but not all exact. When looking at the domain and website properties it looks to be created in January 2011.


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## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

JJuchems said:


> Similar pictures were post by Marcus while back, but not all exact. When looking at the domain and website properties it looks to be created in January 2011.


First mention of this farm in my russian forums is from 23 dec 2010
EXIF info of photos shows them to be created 16 jan 2011

And those threads on BD goes even to 2007


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JeremyHuff said:


> I think there is a reasonable chance that auratus are being bred in decent numbers, but the pumilio were in such a huge density, I think any eggs would be eaten or stomped on.
> 
> I should add, that calling it a farm, at least for pumilio is a misnomer. It is just not cost effective to rear these frogs to adult size and sell them for $5-$10 when you can pay pennies to locals to catch them. Sure there will be accidental breeding successes but nothing regular (for pumilio).


There are reports in the literature of high densities of pumilio under certain conditions (like that shown in the photo in Lotter et al). The thing that is suspicious to me is that the pictures can't be blown up by clicking on them.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Ed said:


> There are reports in the literature of high densities of pumilio under certain conditions (like that shown in the photo in Lotter et al). The thing that is suspicious to me is that the pictures can't be blown up by clicking on them.


Why is that suspicious? That takes an extra programing step and they probably figured the pics were already big enough.

Edit: Some of the pics on the other pages (I only checked the pumilio page) do blow up, but not all of them.

Also, could it be that some of the group pics were staged? There is one with a bunch of Mancreeks on a breeding pole at a very high density, but none visible on the plants or ground. Could it be they were collected from the pen and then dumped in the one spot for the picture? I hate to see people jump to conclusions based on a few pictures when you don't know any of the circumstances behind those pics.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The pictures that I would have liked to able to enlarge to get a good idea of what is going on are those of the tubs and other rearing containers. If they could be enlarged to show what is going on in the tub, it would lend more credulence to the site. 
The pictures were taken in a manner that doesn't show detail which would enable a person to make a idea on what is going on.


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## John1451 (Jun 6, 2011)

I just emailed them (in english and spanish) as an interested wholesale purchaser to get a sheet and trade references.

We shall see....

PS 
Anyone have any powder blue tinc females or know where to get some?


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## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

Ed said:


> The pictures that I would have liked to able to enlarge to get a good idea of what is going on are those of the tubs and other rearing containers. If they could be enlarged to show what is going on in the tub, it would lend more credulence to the site.
> *The pictures were taken in a manner that doesn't show detail which would enable a person to make a idea on what is going on.*


That was the point why i posted it on Vendor Info & Questions part of the forum. 

I wish to find out if any one of you ever got shipments from this farm. To hear your opinion if this farm *looks* like a breeding facility, or just a storrage for sorting wild animals. 

As Ed I didn't see any stuff for breeding efforts expect that upside down cups.

Also i indicated price list for my country in my topic.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> I have a feeling this is a fairly old website--I think I recall seeing images of a facility very similar to these ones a number of years ago. This might just be a defunct project/site.


 i remember a farm like this a while back also. but i think for the breeder cups they were like an ice cream waffle cup/cone pointing up. not sure if i looked at it on frognet or here. also it might of been supposedly a real effort at frog farming for the natives to breed frogs instead of just chopping down trees and farming the land. sorry for the extra ramble.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I was pretty naive about the whole farming issue until I bought some farm raised pumilio last summer and started looking into it. I've done quite a lot of research and talked to some oldtimers and folks who have visited farming operations, and the conclusion I have reached is that I am more confused about what really happens than I was before.

First, photos can easily be staged. Some folks most certainly have started out trying to essentially breed-in-place to produce large numbers of frogs, but have failed. So, the photos might be representative of a farm at a fixed point in time. However, if it was profitable to breed-in-place and only use WC specimens to bring fresh blood into the captive breeding population, then I would have to believe that more people would be doing it. For that matter, the main advantage to breeding in country is that one could create larger breeding enclosures outdoors, whereas most hobbyists are restricted to environmentally controlled enclosures. I know that some people make a living breeding and selling frogs, but I don't think I could and I doubt anybody is getting rich doing it.

Finally, from my own experience of rearing frogs to adult size, I can imagine that the temptation to simply pay pennies for WC frogs rather than put a year of work into a batch of frogs would be great.

So, for my part, I assume that any farmed frogs are essentially WC frogs. Personally, I don't have a problem with the idea of keeping WC animals as long as the harvest rate is sustainable. But, therein lies the problem. We don't know, and probably never will, whether the "farms" are collecting sustainable numbers of frogs. On the other hand, if the habitat is being destroyed then the wild frogs will die off anyway, so it could be argued that it's ethical to collect those frogs. I believe that is the rationalization used to justify continued importation of frogs like the Golden Mantella.

I'd like to see a true frog farm where a tract of impaired habitat is restored and enhanced; where frog populations are monitored and harvested at various rates to see what a sustainable harvest rate would be. But, someone would have to be independently wealthy to do it and the farm would be restricted to the local species/morphs, which might be only two or three, depending on the locale.


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## John1451 (Jun 6, 2011)

Still no news about this place?


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