# 2'x2'x4' Viv Build



## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

Well, it's here! And it is going to be a beast to set up 😅 This is my 2'x2'x4' tank that I had built. The original plan was to make it an imitator varadero tank, but after some feedback I've decided to keep the varadero paired in smaller tanks and find a more group-friendly frog. I still intend to build this as though I'm mitigating territoriality (lots of hides, perches, visual barriers), but I'd rather pick a frog that I'll have fewer worries over. Still looking at ranitomeya (maybe southern variabilis), but I saw a post from Tijl about housing bastimientos in a group successfully so I'm not ruling that out (but I'll bug folks for tips well before I start the frog-buying process ☺)

The tank, sitting next to a 24x18x24 for scale.










And a small fraction of "the stuff" - conk shelves, thick manzanita branches, driftwood and Mopani chunks (including a really nice large stump) and some long/wide cork flats. I have some liana vines, cork rounds, and a couple cork branches on hand as well, with more Manzanita (with thinner branches but more of them) and cork logs on the way. I also have lots more silicone and great stuff en route, plus some net pots for mounting plants that won't vine or be attached to branches.

















Speaking of plants, I aim to plant this much more heavily than my other vivs since I plan to house some form of thumbnail. I have a few terrestrial plants (caladium and anthurium), but most of what I have or am ordering is epiphytic to some degree or can grow up mossy backgrounds. Lots of vines and bromeliads (probably more bromeliads than I can fit in the tank, tbh, but the more I start with the more options I have!). 

I'm really looking forward to starting this one. Definitely not a weekend project like the smaller tanks can be!


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

Outstanding!

Fully decided on a dendrobatid? Cause red eyed tree frogs and height...


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## hansgruber7 (Mar 23, 2020)

I've been told Varaderos do well in groups in a big enough space. Is that not true?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

hansgruber7 said:


> I've been told Varaderos do well in groups in a big enough space. Is that not true?


What are varaderos? Do you mean Ranitomeya imitator "Varaderos"?


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

DPfarr said:


> Outstanding!
> 
> Fully decided on a dendrobatid? Cause red eyed tree frogs and height...


Yeah, pretty set on a dendrobatid. I'll look into tree frogs, but really prefer darts


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

This could make a fantastic jungle gym for Ranitomeya sirensis... You could have a nice sized group (I'd go with 6) in that tank if it's setup the way I think you're going to set it up (branches, hides, bromeliads, etc.).


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

Sirensis are gorgeous little creatures.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> This could make a fantastic jungle gym for Ranitomeya sirensis... You could have a nice sized group (I'd go with 6) in that tank if it's setup the way I think you're going to set it up (branches, hides, bromeliads, etc.).


How do sirensis compare in shyness to Reticulata?


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

I have a build almost exactly like that (check my profile for some pics - just a little bit larger)! 

Your main challenge will be balancing lighting vs. heat since otherwise the bottom will be very dark and not suitable for many plants. I'd recommend not putting background on all sides and potentially considering some form of lighting halfway down (since light intensity diminishes exponentially with distance - you can light up the whole viv with much lower intensity LEDs)


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

crbonade said:


> How do sirensis compare in shyness to Reticulata?


I don't keep reticulata, but my sirensis group are fairly bold. I can usually find 4 of the 7 frogs at any given time, with only minimal searching.


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Oh - you might also want to consider darts that will appreciate the height (more than others). Leucs come to mind - and are group friendly. 

I do think Imitators are unique in that they pair bond (are monogamous), so groups tend to be hit or miss.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

eMCRay said:


> I do think Imitators are unique in that they pair bond (are monogamous), so groups tend to be hit or miss.


Yes and no. They are monogamous, but that's not the issue with group intolerance (for example, _R. vanzolinii_ are also monogamous but quite group-tolerant). Imitators are just territorial (very loosely speaking; I don't know exactly what motivates them, especially females, to beat each other up).


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I used too keep bastimentos succesfully-ish in group (2.3). But I did split them up over time and have not regret doing so. 

So, I actualy don't recommend keeping them in group. 😅


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

Tijl said:


> I used too keep bastimentos succesfully-ish in group (2.3). But I did split them up over time and have not regret doing so.
> 
> So, I actualy don't recommend keeping them in group. 😅


Good to know! If you did it for a while and are happier with having them split up, then I'm more than happy to learn from your experience lol.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I don't keep reticulata, but my sirensis group are fairly bold. I can usually find 4 of the 7 frogs at any given time, with only minimal searching.


It's hard when most sites just say "shy" or "moderately shy" and I'm like, but what does that _mean_?! But having half of a group visible at any given time is enough for me, I'd be bummed to have frogs that I never see! I've had people recommend southern variabilis as well, so I'll have to do more research on them and sirensis


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## Shazace (Jul 19, 2020)

I don't know if you're set on ranitomeya but a group of epipedobates would love that tank.


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes and no. They are monogamous, but that's not the issue with group intolerance (for example, _R. vanzolinii_ are also monogamous but quite group-tolerant). Imitators are just territorial (very loosely speaking; I don't know exactly what motivates them, especially females, to beat each other up).


Yeah that's a fair point - my other Ranitomeya get along fine in groups (except maybe for a minute or two when the male starts calling) but Imitator less so... always assumed it was the monogamous thing or related to it, but could be anything really.

Leucs are just a smidge larger, easy to see (esp. in a large build) and really appreciate the height. I haven't seen any territoriality there either, so my personal recommendation for a build like this.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

I've decided on a group of sirensis for the vivarium, and have the first few ("reds" courtesy of Patrick Nabors) hanging out in a quarantine tank. A couple frog bellies for tax:

















My hardscape is all here, I'm stocked up on silicone and a few other adhesives, so today I will start laying out where I want everything.

Box of (very thick) Manzanita logs. I think because of the size/weight I will use these at the bottom of the vivarium, to create a couple of substrate levels and to make ramps leading upward.









Cork tubes and flats (tubes range between 6-16" long and flats are up to 30" long):

















My pile of cork branches, lighter manzanita branches, and conk ledges. I'm going to experiment with neodymium magnets to hold them in place while I decide permanent placement and apply silicone; hopefully it works so I don't have to try laying this thing on its side of doing tape spiderwebs to hold everything up...









A few liana vines to slide in somewhere (and my nearby-ish exotic pet store sells them if I decide I want more)









And so. Many. Bromeliads. I have more plants as well (a few types of pothos and philodendron, both bought specifically for this tank and growing as hanging planters around the house; some Monstera dubia because I live shingling plants; some anthurium, caladium, and cryptanthus for the substrate level and net pots; some orchids because I feel like experimenting with some; and a bunch of aquatic plants that may or may not survive but we'll see)









Not pictured is a box containing around 20 gallons of substrate knot all for this tank lol) and a couple boxes arriving today with 26 galloms of leaf litter.

Next post will be the initial layout (here's hopig the magnets work!). Looking forward to getting started!


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

The magnets don't work 🙄 so I got to tip the monster on its side after all. Started hardscaping today - not 100% sure I like the direction it's going, but we'll see how it goes as I start adding the sides in the next few days 🤷










From the top:









Not sure what it is that's bugging me. Might actually be the two manzanita branches - the tiny branches are very delicate and twiggy, and I think in my head I was envisioning sturdier, thicker branches. I'm sure thumbnails won't care (will probably enjoy the dozens of climbing routes), but I'm having trouble seeing where I can easily mount plants and bromeliads. I'll have to ponder it...


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

crbonade said:


> but I'm having trouble seeing where I can easily mount plants and bromeliads. I'll have to ponder it...


You can tie bromeliads / epiphytes to the smaller branches using thread. The thread will dissolve over time and the plants will attach themselves onto the wood. 

Personally, I think the hardscape looks awesome so far.


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## hansgruber7 (Mar 23, 2020)

I think it's great, but I agree something about the manzanita branches is not as appealing. Personally, I would replace them with a few ghostwood branches. I find my frogs really like climbing on the ghostwood and I find it more visually appealing too. The manzanita is too thin and spindly-looking for my taste.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

I need to take more photos, but added in ledges, logs, and cork flats. Laying this thing on its side (and then rotating it around to work in each side) was nerve-wracking lol. Glad that part's done! Now it's time to clean all the loose peat/coco husk out and stuff cracks with sphagnum moss. Then I'll add the drainage layer and start building my substrate levels and add my logs and ramps from the surface up into the hardscape.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)




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## Hoppy22 (Aug 11, 2021)

Where did you get your ledges. They look great very natural looking.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

Hoppy22 said:


> Where did you get your ledges. They look great very natural looking.


They're actually real conk shelves, which I bought on etsy.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)




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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

With all the reading I've done on this site I can't believe I missed this thread. I love the look of this one. Updates? New pics? I'm really curious to see how this viv is filling in as the plants grow.

I'm (slowly) building and 18 x 18 x 48, so similar dimensions.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

I'll try to remember to get some photos this evening. The new growth is mostly on the lower level - the back and upper half have stayed pretty dry, so if I want growth there I need to figure out how to reconfigure some misting nozzles to reach the back (for now I just stuck a giant air plant up top). I do have some pothos starting to vine upwards, but they're not big enough to provide a lot of cover yet.

I currently have 8 misting nozzles in there, but they're all in front (4 on each side, running down the front corners), so the back wall isn't getting a lot of mist. I might see if I can add a junction and a new line to run a nozzle to a back corner and see if I can get more growth up the back wall that way, but I probably also need to plant some creepers at the back to start training them up (I was trying to do epiphytes, but creepers from the ground might be easier).


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

Top half of the tank:









Full view:









Bottom half, brom on the lower left is the favorite home for the frogs:









My bravest one, who is usually visible. The rest dive for cover deep into the brom when I come by.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Thanks for the update. Sounds like it is quite easy to create wetter and dryer areas in such a large viv.


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## Pmcarbrey (Apr 9, 2013)

looks like a nice build! i'm looking at doing something similar in the next few months only 48" wide! looks like you got a good variety of broms!


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