# Pygmy chameleons with darts?



## Thegeckodart (12 mo ago)

I’m wondering if i could do Pygmy leaf chameleons with my darts


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

No one on here is likely to recommend mixing other species with darts, due to the possibilities of pathogen transfer, predator/prey behavior, competition for food, different environmental requirements, etc. I am personally planning on keeping both darts and pygmy chameleons separately some day, probably in two tanks on the same rack. I'll be doing a Peruvian biotope for the darts, and I'm excited about the idea of trying out an African biotope to make the ideal habitat for the pygmies...


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## Thegeckodart (12 mo ago)

Thank. Any animals other than mourning geckos that would be good it large dart frog enclosure


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Thegeckodart said:


> Thank. Any animals other than mourning geckos that would be good it large dart frog enclosure


In general, the expert keepers on this forum do not recommend keeping dart frogs with any other species, including mourning geckos and other species of darts. The potential ramifications to health and behavior patterns are just too high.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Please search 'mixing' here, and read all the threads. There are simply too many reasons why cohabitation isn't prudent husbandry to repeat it all in any sort of complete fashion.


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## kennyb123 (Oct 20, 2019)

@Harpspiel @Thegeckodart 
I am interested in keeping Pygmy chameleons some day down the line but have found it hard to find good info on them as well as trustworthy sources to buy CB animals. Do either of you have any pointers as far as information resources and/or breeders? 

I don’t think you’re supposed to post other forums or vendors publicly, could you PM me?


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## Thegeckodart (12 mo ago)

I’ve heard red eyed crocodile skink can go with crested geckos or darts. Does anybody know about this or has done this.


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## Thegeckodart (12 mo ago)

I have a large tank setup with darts


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

We are merging your "bad idea" threads together here.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Thegeckodart said:


> I’ve heard red eyed crocodile skink can go with crested geckos or darts. Does anybody know about this or has done this.


Heard from where? Can you cite the source?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Thegeckodart said:


> I have a large tank setup with darts


Define "large". All my non-Ranitomeya dart frogs are in 36x18" footprint tanks, and if I could get larger ready made terrariums I would do so. And there's no way I would want to combine other animals into a tank with them.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Scott said:


> We are merging your "bad idea" threads together here.


LOL!


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Thegeckodart said:


> I’ve heard red eyed crocodile skink can go with crested geckos or darts. Does anybody know about this or has done this.


Nope.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

kennyb123 said:


> I don’t think you’re supposed to post other forums or vendors publicly, could you PM me?


Just for clarification: Promoting competing forums is not allowed. DB isn't a chameleon forum, so quietly directing chameleon questions to a chameleon forum (fish questions to a fish forum, ostrich questions to an ostrich forum, etc) is permitted, and recommended for the sake of good animal care. General discussion and (mis)information/advertising platforms (FB, Reddit, YouTube, and others) are often acting as competing forums, not only competing with DB but with all manner of legitimate informational hubs.

Stating where you bought your frogs is permitted. Stating that a certain vendor sells a certain item is permitted so long as it doesn't look like advertising or promotion. Recommending, reviewing, criticizing or promoting vendors is generally not material that belongs in the discussion sections.

We appreciate everyone's efforts to keep in the bounds of what seems to make DB run most smoothly; those efforts do not go unnoticed. So, thank you sincerely.


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## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

As far as I am concerned, it does not matter if the two species you want to keep have identical care requirements. Pathogen transfer will always be a major risk-even with species from the same place; As will species dominance and possible predation. The answer to almost all mixing proposals outside of zoological institutions is a resounding no. Do not do it.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

I wouldn't keep any chameleons with darts. 

I will say - in the interest of intellectual discussion and not husbandry recommendations - I collect books on chameleon husbandry as a specific hobby interest, and I actually just got a copy of an old (Necas & Schmidt 2004) book on pygmy chameleons (Brookesia and Rhampholeon specifically) in the mail that mentions keeping these species successfully with dart frogs and nocturnal geckos. The European husbandry guides including Lotters' _Poison Frogs_ seem more sympathetic to mixed species vivaria - but most of these books are out of print in English and I can't read German so if that has changed with newer editions I cannot say for sure. I am also probably the most sympathetic to mixed species vivariums on this forum, and while I have been low-key flamed for it in the past, I respectfully disagree that they can't/ definitely shouldn't be done - they can and have been done. Whether or not they should is a reasonable discussion, but ultimately a discussion of values. 

Still, I generally agree that it's not a good idea even if I dispute what I view as a the dogmatic nature of the response, and I would not recommend putting pygmy chameleons with dart frogs for the basic reasons that 1) they (the chameleons) are often field collected and have a reputation of being hard to acclimate even when kept separately and so any additional stressors would not be likely to yield a good outcome regardless of what ultimately kills the poor lizards and 2) to keep any animals together (including individuals of the same species, but certainly individuals of different species) you really need to know a lot about them - what they look like when healthy, when sick, when stressed, etc. This requires having worked with them before in isolation before you could safely keep them together. And then 3) is prohibitive costs, lack of commercially available enclosures appropriate for mixed species, moving parts, etc etc. Also for beginning hobbyists asking questions on a forum it's probably a bad idea, and that's where a lot of these questions come from. 

Also I am in agreement with the prior responses that crested geckos and crocodile skinks would be very bad species to keep with dart frogs. I can't speak to crocodile skinks specifically, but I would be willing to bet a few bucks that a crested gecko would try to eat a dart frog.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

connorology said:


> I wouldn't keep any chameleons with darts.
> 
> I will say - in the interest of intellectual discussion and not husbandry recommendations - I collect books on chameleon husbandry as a specific hobby interest, and I actually just got a copy of an old (Necas & Schmidt 2004) book on pygmy chameleons (Brookesia and Rhampholeon specifically) in the mail that mentions keeping these species successfully with dart frogs and nocturnal geckos. The European husbandry guides including Lotters' _Poison Frogs_ seem more sympathetic to mixed species vivaria - but most of these books are out of print in English and I can't read German so if that has changed with newer editions I cannot say for sure. I am also probably the most sympathetic to mixed species vivariums on this forum, and while I have been low-key flamed for it in the past, I respectfully disagree that they can't/ definitely shouldn't be done - they can and have been done. Whether or not they should is a reasonable discussion, but ultimately a discussion of values.
> 
> ...


I'm also not as negative towards cohabitating species as many, but for the purposes of this forum, I typically do not suggest or encourage it.

The main reason is that most people wanting to, or asking if they can, are people new to the hobby or have very little experience. There are those who have and do successfully mix species, but they do so typically with strong experience in the care of the species involved, in well thought out enclosures. They are also not the people asking questions about it on the forum.

The pathogen transfer argument doesn't hold a lot of water for me, even though it is often quoted here. Think of the pathogen transfer that has already taken place in commercial breeding, or even in a pet store for that matter. It's impossible to avoid, in my opinion.

With all that said, I have never cohabitated my Ranitomeya with anything - not even different locales of the same species. The majority of species should never be housed together, but I don't think a blanket statement of no is the answer either. However, as most of the questions here regarding this specific question are from beginners, or often those masquerading as "having done their research" but with very little actual experience, the answer of "no" is typically one I agree with, and one that is most likely best for the well being of the animals.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Chris S said:


> The pathogen transfer argument doesn't hold a lot of water for me, even though it is often quoted here. Think of the pathogen transfer that has already taken place in commercial breeding, or even in a pet store for that matter. It's impossible to avoid, in my opinion.


Although those considerations would support an argument against "commercial breeding" (quotes since I'm not clear exactly how broad that category is, or how commercial breeding is worse in this regard than hobby breeding) and typical pet store practices just as well as they support an argument admitting defeat. If a reason supports both a conclusion and its negation, it isn't a reason.

For me, the studies showing that Bd has strains with enhanced virulence because of captive genetic recombination seals the pathogen transfer argument against mixing.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Chris S said:


> The pathogen transfer argument doesn't hold a lot of water for me, even though it is often quoted here. Think of the pathogen transfer that has already taken place in commercial breeding, or even in a pet store for that matter. It's impossible to avoid, in my opinion.


It's an idea with a grain of truth that gets thrown around with such authority and often little consideration to the actual degree of risk involved.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

bulbophyllum said:


> It's an idea with a grain of truth that gets thrown around with such authority and often little consideration to the actual degree of risk involved.


I think this is the right answer here. I don't mean to disregard it completely @Socratic Monologue, but more that is thrown around a lot here as the primary, overarching reason.

If I keep 5 different types of animals at home in the same room and I handle some of them, and clean others enclosures on a weekend - is the chance of a pathogen transfer not pretty high as well? If so, the answer is to ensure we are wearing disposable gloves, washing our hands and sterilizing our equipment before we interact with different animals and their enclosures (sort of like how a lab would do so). I don't think this is realistic to be honest. The transfer of pathogens in that scenario is probably pretty high, without even throwing mixing species into the argument.

95% of the time things like incompatible temperature, humidity, or enclosure design are good enough to suggest mixing is not a good idea, and I think they are easier to digest for most newcomers.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Chris S said:


> if I keep 5 different types of animals at home in the same room and I handle some of them, and clean others enclosures on a weekend - is the chance of a pathogen transfer not pretty high as well?


Probably. But that isn't good practice, either, and so this is just justifying one bad practice with another. Hand sanitizer needs to be used between enclosures, and soap and water if feces contact or other soiling exists -- it is entirely realistic, as I do it between all enclosures or distinct groups of animals (a clutch of boas, for example, can be assumed to share pathogens, at least early in their life). The fact that other people don't take reasonable precautions in their collections doesn't make me less motivated to do so in mine; exactly the opposite, in fact.

My main resistance is that I don't get the angle of the reasoning on this whole subject. I don't get the 'since this is going to happen (or has possibly already happened) anyway, we shouldn't take precautions' stance, since it can be used to dispel the crossbreeding considerations in certain cases ("we don't know that these morphs aren't already mixes"). It can be and is used for ill in all sorts of public goods arguments, which captive population safety is (it is arguably an example of Garrett Hardin's "tragedy of the commons", if a person wants to look that up).

Mostly, I don't get the "what can I mix in this viv and what can I appeal to in explaining away the risks" starting point. Because that's what's going on in this line of reasoning -- there are all these considerations that one by one can be dispelled (pathogen risk is low enough; can find species that are behaviorally compatible; can find species that are environmentally compatible; can pull eggs to eliminate hybrid risks; etc). But as I see it, that's getting it backwards. Reasoning from "I'm going to keep species X, how can I do that well", the answer never is "I should mix it with species Y". I think this backwards approach comes in part from the aquarium hobby, which based on livestock loss rates is not remotely a hobby worth emulating.

BTW, the risk of pathogen transfer in herps generally -- here as elsewhere, risk = probability x harm -- is not low. A bunch of examples:

Agamid adenovirus is transmitted across species, and is becoming a big health problem, ending large collections of _Pogona_; a tech at my vet who is trying to put together a negative breeding program told me it is quite hard to find beardies that test negative (though only one in five wild specimens carry it). 

Snake nidovirus -- fairly recently identified -- has a variable transmission rate that is almost certainly increased by cohabitation, is known in a handful of species, and likely carried by very many more (it is hard to detect via PCR even in symptomatic animals), and ends collections of ball pythons and puts serious dampers on GTP collections (it is becoming apparent that many respiratory infections common to GTPs have nido as a primary cause -- antibiotics clear the secondary infection but it recurs under the right conditions). 

Frogs and turtles can be infected by the same Ranaviruses, a high-harm pathogen.

_Cryptosporidium varanii _infects a range of lizards and snakes, and is a not uncommon collection-destroyer (I know of one hobbyist breeder, a creator of a very popular gecko webpage, and one quite large breeder whose collections were eliminated by this pathogen; here's a report of another completely lost collection that was apparently asymptomatic until it wasn't). A zoo exotics vet who researched crypto told me that a considerable percentage of leos at Tinley show visual signs of possible crypto infection (I forgot the exact number, but it was more than 10% and less than 50%).

Reports of these things are hard to find (no one admits disease outbreaks readily), and any one keeper has a low probability of encountering issues in one or a handful of mixing events. Captive populations generally, though, are harmed quite a bit by pathogen transfer, and like I've tried to imply elsewhere I think we should conceive of all this as something of a group effort.


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## CharlieN (Mar 5, 2019)

I think it is safe to say as a hobbyist it is highly recommended not to have multi species vivariums and our reptiles should only share their tank with springtails and isopods. Washing hands and sanitizing should always been done once you finish in a vivarium before putting your hands or tools into another vivarium. These questions and statements definitely bring the passion out of members here and for good reasons. The best thing i find is how much members care about other members and the reptiles we all love you have and observe. We all only want the best for the animals we keep.


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## Captain Awesome (Jan 13, 2018)

These arguments against pathogen transfer highlight a misunderstanding of how viruses and bacteria work. Exposure to illness and disease are not binary. I see a lot of this with the current “virus experts” that have come out in the last two years. Initial dose and frequency of exposure, condition of exposure and route all play a critical role in disease progression. Basically, an occasional forcepfull of transfer from one tank to another is vastly different than living in and hopping around with in close quarters with a tank mate that is going through shedding cycles.


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## Captain Awesome (Jan 13, 2018)

I guess what I was trying to say is, an accidental exposure from one tank does not justify intentional exposure long term cause it is “unavoidable”. By that argument, we will all get in a car accident eventually, just ignore that red light.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Captain Awesome said:


> I guess what I was trying to say is, an accidental exposure from one tank does not justify intentional exposure long term cause it is “unavoidable”. By that argument, we will all get in a car accident eventually, just ignore that red light.


That's a bit of a slippery slope...

I'm not really arguing against it, just that I think it is overstated in the importance and that there are other usually other, better arguments against mixing (maybe in some cases if only because they are easier to understand).

I keep hearing about zoo's and other institutions being able to get a pass on cohabitation, but I am pretty sure that pathogens don't care about how much training a keeper has, they exist anyways.


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## CharlieN (Mar 5, 2019)

Chris S said:


> I keep hearing about zoo's and other institutions being able to get a pass on cohabitation, but I am pretty sure that pathogens don't care about how much training a keeper has, they exist anyways.


Chris i agree with you that they exist in zoo's but they are equipped and staffed to handle it immediately and on premise. I do not know about the rest of everyone else on here but i am not. Just to get one of my frogs to a vet equipped to diagnose and treat would take a minimum of a hour to 1.5 hrs.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Chris S said:


> I keep hearing about zoo's and other institutions being able to get a pass on cohabitation


I'll see your slippery slope and raise you a _tu quoque_. 

If it is claimed that a zoo can cohab, but a hobbyist cannot, and we take that as a contradiction (I think we should, because as you point out the differences are not relevant enough), then it is just as reasonable to suppose that no one should cohab as to suppose that everyone should. And determining this we need to turn to the facts of the matter (that's why it is a fallacy to accuse hypocrisy -- that accusation may be true, but it doesn't move the argument forward).


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I'll see your slippery slope and raise you a _tu quoque_.
> 
> If it is claimed that a zoo can cohab, but a hobbyist cannot, and we take that as a contradiction (I think we should, because as you point out the differences are not relevant enough), then it is just as reasonable to suppose that no one should cohab as to suppose that everyone should. And determining this we need to turn to the facts of the matter (that's why it is a fallacy to accuse hypocrisy -- that accusation may be true, but it doesn't move the argument forward).


Missing my point a little bit, I mentioned it only because I think typically the zoos likely have the knowledge to setup proper enclosures, with more compatible inhabitants - and certainly would not breed them in this manner. If pathogen transfer was a huge risk, they wouldn't do this. Just because you have the ability to treat and diagnose issues isn't a good reason to expose a group of animals to them.

My point above is only to say the risk is likely a bit overstated, or we wouldn't see this sort of thing - not that it doesn't exist entirely.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

Multi-species exhibits are for creating attractive displays for the public. Such as creating a model of a ecosystem like the Amazonia exhibit at the Washington zoo. 

They are balancing the possible risks of cohabitation with the goal educating and connecting with the public. They have a reason for doing it so in my mind it is not wrong, and of course if anyone was equipped to deal with effects of cohabitation then it would be zoos. 

But as hobbyists with animals not being displayed to the public cohabitation is only done for our own enjoyment without any altruistic goals. So I think rather than looking at the public exhibits zoos create for the public we should be looking at the animals in the backrooms such as in zoos amphibian conservation programs where the only goal is to care for the animal as well as possible.

Amazonia exhibit (has birds, fish, turtles) A example of a Multi-species exhibit with the goal of educating and inspiring the public. You wouldn't keep animals in conservation programs like this.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Chris S said:


> The pathogen transfer argument doesn't hold a lot of water for me, even though it is often quoted here. Think of the pathogen transfer that has already taken place in commercial breeding, or even in a pet store for that matter. It's impossible to avoid, in my opinion.


I am basically in agreement that this argument is overstated - pathogen transfer can occur between individuals of the same species as well, or between enclosures in a vivarium shelf/rack system that a lot of folks use, independent of if they are in the same enclosure. If the animals are captive bred and have been properly quarantined with a vet checkup prior to going into a communal vivarium, I am skeptical the risk is higher than when kept close together in a reptile room. I feel that makes it a bad argument against mixing species specifically and a good argument for keeping fewer total animals.



Socratic Monologue said:


> ]My main resistance is that I don't get the angle of the reasoning on this whole subject. I don't get the 'since this is going to happen (or has possibly already happened) anyway, we shouldn't take precautions' stance... It can be and is used for ill in all sorts of public goods arguments, which captive population safety is...


I'm don't think that's what we are saying- for the record, I am not saying that since pathogens can be transferred in other contexts that we shouldn't care about risks of mixed species vivaria. Rather, I am confused about the inconsistency with which concern over pathogen transfer is applied. Folks will keep massive collections of animals that are documented as being able to transmit diseases between individuals and/or species, and there is minimal concern over this practice because it is widespread, but if a pretty conservative mixed species vivaria is discussed (MGs with darts, a couple of dart species that live together in the wild where one is mostly terrestrial and one is more arboreal, etc) then suddenly everyone cares about hypothetical pathogen transfer.

I'm sufficiently worried about the risk of pathogen transfer that it's part of the reason I keep my collection pretty small and I try not to keep species that could infect one another. I'd like to try keeping a smaller boa species, but I'm not going to risk arenavirus or some other weird bug infecting my 25 year old ball python; I've also thought about setting up a hobby level reptile rescue since I could do my own treatments and try to rehab some of the sad local Craigslist herp rehome listings that people impulse bought at shows and got bored with- but I don't want to risk infecting my animals by bringing sick herps into the house.



Socratic Monologue said:


> Mostly, I don't get the "what can I mix in this viv and what can I appeal to in explaining away the risks" starting point. Because that's what's going on in this line of reasoning -- there are all these considerations that one by one can be dispelled (pathogen risk is low enough; can find species that are behaviorally compatible; can find species that are environmentally compatible; can pull eggs to eliminate hybrid risks; etc). But as I see it, that's getting it backwards. Reasoning from "I'm going to keep species X, how can I do that well", the answer never is "I should mix it with species Y". I think this backwards approach comes in part from the aquarium hobby, which based on livestock loss rates is not remotely a hobby worth emulating.


I have kept MGs with my frogs - it worked well and is a husbandry strategy advocated by the Lotters "Posion Frogs" book, Josh's Frogs, and that I have seen on display at the National Aquarium in Baltimore. I was using them primarily to capture any prey items the frogs let escape into the canopy - back when I was feeding more pinheads I had a problem of escapees hiding out and maturing in the vivarium. Ultimately I pulled them out because some repairs on the top of my enclosure left it frog-proof but not MG proof. I have not appreciated a difference in wellbeing when they were with my frogs to now when they are not. Now that the geckos are out I again have feeders that hide in the upper reaches of the Frogs' enclosure during the day though.



Socratic Monologue said:


> Cryptosporidium varanii infects a range of lizards and snakes, and is a not uncommon collection-destroyer (I know of one hobbyist breeder, a creator of a very popular gecko webpage, and one quite large breeder whose collections were eliminated by this pathogen; here's a report of another completely lost collection that was apparently asymptomatic until it wasn't). A zoo exotics vet who researched crypto told me that a considerable percentage of leos at Tinley show visual signs of possible crypto infection (I forgot the exact number, but it was more than 10% and less than 50%). Reports of these things are hard to find (no one admits disease outbreaks readily), and any one keeper has a low probability of encountering issues in one or a handful of mixing events. Captive populations generally, though, are harmed quite a bit by pathogen transfer, and like I've tried to imply elsewhere I think we should conceive of all this as something of a group effort.


There are plenty of examples of herps infecting other herps, but it doesn't necessarily apply more to mixed species vivaria. My childhood collection of leopard geckos was killed off by cryptosporidium, it was a hard loss for a 12 year old. That wasn't a mixed species vivarium - it was a breeding harem which was advocated in the late 1990s as a good husbandry strategy (both from experienced keepers I talked to and in the print literature I possessed). I have not kept leos together since, though I am unsure of what truly represents the best welfare since there's evidence they do live in loose colonies in the wild. I don't think there's an objectively right or wrong answer. I have had dozens of canine patients severely injured by other dogs at dog parks, and I've seen deaths from GI foreign bodies from ingested toys. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who would say dogs shouldn't be allowed to play with toys (though I have admittedly gone on anti-dog park rants with a level of vitriol that far exceeds the anti-mixed species vivaria discussion - and lots of folks think I am wrong about that). It's a delicate balance of allowing natural behaviors/increased enrichment while also trying to maximize safety, and the two goals aren't always aligned.

In terms of herp disease outbreaks I feel like the most common thread is raw number of animals - the more you have the more likely there is to be an introduction that can spread within a collection. If you had a single large vivarium mixing two compatible species and you quarantine all those animals first you're likely at a much lower infection risk than if you have dozens of separately housed species and new acquisitions coming in frequently. Again, it's a problem in general but it's not unique to mixed species vivaria so I don't think it is a good argument against them specifically. I think the best argument against them is that not many American hobbyists keep them so the equipment and experience required to do so isn't easily obtained/doesn't exist, and that some of the suggestions for potential enclosure mates are obviously non-compatible.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

connorology said:


> I am basically in agreement that this argument is overstated - pathogen transfer can occur between individuals of the same species as well, or between enclosures in a vivarium shelf/rack system that a lot of folks use, independent of if they are in the same enclosure. If the animals are captive bred and have been properly quarantined with a vet checkup prior to going into a communal vivarium, I am skeptical the risk is higher than when kept close together in a reptile room. I feel that makes it a bad argument against mixing species specifically and a good argument for keeping fewer total animals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm very much in agreement with much of what you say here, but it would certainly be important to point out again that there are a literal TON of good reasons to not mix species. Nine times out of ten it is bad husbandry practices that can be be the issue - different requirements for species.

It is refreshing we can have this conversation here though, but important that anyone reading this for support of mixed species vivariums understands that those like myself (and I will wholeheartedly assume @connorology is in agreement here due to his background and knowledge) that are arguing against pathogen transfer will still often be the first people to argue against mixing species in the majority of situations.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Chris S said:


> I'm very much in agreement with much of what you say here, but it would certainly be important to point out again that there are a literal TON of good reasons to not mix species. Nine times out of ten it is bad husbandry practices that can be be the issue - different requirements for species.
> 
> It is refreshing we can have this conversation here though, but important that anyone reading this for support of mixed species vivariums understands that those like myself (and I will wholeheartedly assume @connorology is in agreement here due to his background and knowledge) that are arguing against pathogen transfer will still often be the first people to argue against mixing species in the majority of situations.


Agreed - I'll amend my prior post to clarify that I mean I think the best argument against mixing species that could conceivably be successfully mixed (like the original dwarf chameleons and darts, at least according to the dwarf chameleon book I have) is that the experience and equipment that would be required to do so successfully isn't widely available. Overtly non-viable pairings like animals from different climates or animals that are obviously predators/prey weren't what I was referring to as those are obviously not compatible or worth entertaining. 

Mourning geckos and P. terribilis are the only species I have ever kept together in almost 25 years of herp keeping (with the exception of an outdoor pond when I was a kid - spoiler alert, the bullfrogs and turtles got along fine, the wild raccoons that figured out how to unplug the drain and surplus killed everything were a third party I had not anticipated).


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