# insufficient retinol, embryo death and SLS.



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When I get a chance to fully digest the article I'll post a little more on it but there was a recent article out on Eleutrodactylus that described early embryo death (the embryos swelled and died or were deformed) and developed SLS when retinol metabolism was disrupted. 
Apparently there is some evidence that insufficent retinol is a problem with more than we might suspect. (I'm going to try and get a full article on this and carotenoid metabolism in a future Leaf Litter). 
I've been trying to decide whether or not to post it here or in the disease forum. 

Ed


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Extremely interesting Ed 

I look forward to a more indepth explanation on this from you mate and I would suspect breeding eggs and tadpoles section would be the best place for this subject.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ed, do you think that's why I've been told information that mantellas given Herpetal do not generally develop SLS froglets?

I don't know if you remember, but we discussed the sls problem I had with mantella madagascariensis, and I have switched to retinol and using UVB.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MJ said:


> Extremely interesting Ed
> 
> I look forward to a more indepth explanation on this from you mate and I would suspect breeding eggs and tadpoles section would be the best place for this subject.


Hi Paul,

As its a nutritional item I thought this would be a better point for it... if necessary it can be expanded out to other areas.. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Ed, do you think that's why I've been told information that mantellas given Herpetal do not generally develop SLS froglets?
> 
> I don't know if you remember, but we discussed the sls problem I had with mantella madagascariensis, and I have switched to retinol and using UVB.


Hi Doug,

What is the final ratio of retinol and D3 in Herpetal? Does it also contain beta carotene? 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

very interesting info, i was using different vitamin supplements, but i think i woudl stick with Dendrocare exclusively from now on as it is very high in Vitamin A


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Don't quote me but the ratio is something like 6.5 : 1 (vitamin A : D3). It does contain retinol and I do not believe it contains beta carotene. Dartfrog.UK sent me the wrong stuff when I ordered it (even though there was no way I could have clicked the wrong link) and stated that I had to return my container to get a refund (like I'm gonna do that here in the states). I'm wary of ordering again and will just go dendrocare till I can figure out a human grade supplement for retinol which I will give once a month.

-Nish



Ed said:


> Hi Doug,
> 
> What is the final ratio of retinol and D3 in Herpetal? Does it also contain beta carotene?
> 
> Ed


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

> but i think i would stick with Dendrocare exclusively from now on as it is very high in Vitamin A


Ive noticed that if used heavily dendrocare can cause seizures especially in pums. i still use it but only once a week just for retinol.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Once a week may be more than enough. I'd personally do once every other week. Others may use it more often. Also, as Ed pointed out to me, females who are mobilizing fat stores for reproduction may then tap into stored retinol within their fat cells. This can raise the amount of retinol in the blood and cause issues.

-Nish



sounddrive said:


> Ive noticed that if used heavily dendrocare can cause seizures especially in pums. i still use it but only once a week just for retinol.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sounddrive said:


> Ive noticed that if used heavily dendrocare can cause seizures especially in pums. i still use it but only once a week just for retinol.


I would have to dig out my notes but if you look at the symptoms for hypervitaminosis A, they do not typically include seizures unless you exceed the LD50 for retinol (which is about 168 mg/kg body weight (or 560000 IU/kg). (see A lethal hypervitaminosis A syndrome in young monk...[Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1981] - PubMed Result) 

An application of Occam's Razor to this gives us a much more probable scenario. It is known that the fat soluble vitamins catalyze thier oxidation and degredation when kept in a mixed supplement. It is much more likely that the shipping and storage of the Dendrocare may have sped up the degredation of the vitamin. The degredation shifted the ratio towards an insufficiency of D3 resulting in the classic seizures seen in hypocalcemic frogs. This is going to be a greater risk when the supplements are shipped in excessive heat or cold. The same problem is going to occur with other vitamins.

The reason this isn't as commonly seen in the US is that virtually all of the supplements available here in the US utilize beta carotene instead of retinol. The ratio in Herpetal is actually slated towards an imbalance of D3. (the ratio of A to D3 should be 10:1 as ratios outside of this can cause imbalances and resulting insufficiencies. 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Pumilio, feed 3x a week, alternate Dendrocare & Repcal, no seizures, not trying to prove a point, just giving data


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