# Shingler ID



## EricM

What do you guys think this is? It's taken me years to get it going. 

thanks
Eric


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## roxrgneiss

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

Nice going, Eric. Looks almost like it could be Monstera dubia! 

Mike


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## Arrynia

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



EricM said:


> What do you guys think this is? It's taken me years to get it going.
> 
> thanks
> Eric


Looks alot like ficus pumila but I'm probably wrong. Especially considering how long it took you to get it going.


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## JoshH

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

Eric that is most definately Monstera dubia or another Monstera species..... it does not exhibit the fine light veining that Rhaphidophora cryptantha does. Another clue it the leaf tips, in Monstera they typically point down to some degree, in Rhaphs the tips are upwards or at least level. 

Thats a really nice plant, very hard to find true dubia! Whatever you do don't let it die!!!


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## araceae

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

Im going to say Scindapsus pictus, looks nothing like a Monstera dubia to me, leaves to far apart


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## araceae

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

here is my Scindapsus pictus


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## JoshH

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



araceae said:


> Im going to say Scindapsus pictus, looks nothing like a Monstera dubia to me, leaves to far apart


You're right, it could be S. pictus. For some reason I have never been able to get pictus to shingle like that though. I've seen photos of Scindapsus that do it but mine have always grown in a random trailing habit. Maybe you have to start with a seed or really tiny cutting and grow it against something? The problem is there are so many shinglers that can be similar, and many of the pics online are incorrectly labelled to further confusion.....


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## araceae

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



JoshH said:


> You're right, it could be S. pictus. For some reason I have never been able to get pictus to shingle like that though. I've seen photos of Scindapsus that do it but mine have always grown in a random trailing habit. Maybe you have to start with a seed or really tiny cutting and grow it against something? The problem is there are so many shinglers that can be similar, and many of the pics online are incorrectly labelled to further confusion.....


To get them to shingle you just need to wire them to what you want them to shingle on.


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## roxrgneiss

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



araceae said:


> Im going to say Scindapsus pictus, looks nothing like a Monstera dubia to me, leaves to far apart


The internodal lengths can be variable in most shinglers.


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## araceae

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



roxrgneiss said:


> The internodal lengths can be variable in most shinglers.


still looks nothing like M.dubia


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## roxrgneiss

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



araceae said:


> still looks nothing like M.dubia


If that is so, can you produce a photo of M dubia and point out the differences?


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## frogparty

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

Im MUCH more inclined to think its M. dubia than Scindapsus pictus


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## markbudde

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

This one is shingling on our right right side. Those leaves are tight against the moss.









I have some in another tank which is shingling on the glass like in Eric's picture. The leaves at the bottom of Eric's plant look rounder than any S. pictus leaves that I've ever seen. It makes a really nice terrarium plant, a little aggressive though.


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## harrywitmore

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

While Eric's plant looks more like Scrindapsis pictus than M dubia I would need to know what the leaf size is. I have never seen a pictus no matter what stage it was in have really small leaves. But, it does shingle very well and is hard to get going some times. This is a plant in situ of M dubia I believe










These were all over Panama along with other unknown Monstera shinglers. The leaf size is incredibly variable in these as it is in Rhaphidophoras.

Here's another Monstera species










And Another









Here is *Rhaphidophora celatocaulis*









Here's a picture of *R cryptantha*










*Scindapsus pictus*










*Rhaphidophora korthalsii*










*Rhaphidophora hayi*


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## araceae

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



roxrgneiss said:


> If that is so, can you produce a photo of M dubia and point out the differences?


adault leaves of M.dubia
Tropicos | Name - Monstera dubia (Kunth) Engl. & K. Krause

juvenile leaves
IAS: Monstera dubia Engl. & Krause


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## roxrgneiss

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

Maybe it is S pictus, however the leaves looked too small in comparison with the live sphag. Might not be from either genus for all I know.  Would be nice to see a terminal end though.


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## roxrgneiss

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



araceae said:


> adault leaves of M.dubia
> Tropicos | Name - Monstera dubia (Kunth) Engl. & K. Krause
> 
> juvenile leaves
> IAS: Monstera dubia Engl. & Krause


Yes, I've seen those pictures of the juvie leaves and others, but they can be much more variable at different sizes and lighting than that one example.


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## harrywitmore

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

I don't think I would put much stock in the patterns on the leaves. I have seen pictures of M dubia with no pattern on them at all. Here's an example from Smithsonian's site on Panamanian vegetation

http://biogeodb.stri.si.edu/bioinformatics/dfmfiles/files/c/25805/25805_400.jpg

I know R cryptantha was grown for many years in this country as M dubia. I wish I could find my emails on the discussion but there is a way to tell a difference but I can't remember what it is. After looking more I'm pretty sure it's not S pictus. Eric, do you remember where it came from?


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## Frogtofall

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

I don't think its S. pictus either. Mostly b/c of the poster's comment....

"Its taken me years to get it going."

There is no way in hell Scindapsus pictus is gonna take that long to get going no matter what you're doing. ;-)


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## araceae

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



EricM said:


> What do you guys think this is? It's taken me years to get it going.
> 
> thanks
> Eric


"Based on a photo that is badly out of focus it would be my opinion the unknown scandent plant is not Monstera dubia. It is closer to S. pictus but without better photos I wouldn't be willing to say what species it might be. It certainly appears to be a closer match to S. pictus than M. dubia.

Let me add, part of my conclusion is based on the fact the leaf blades in the out of focus photo don't appear to be as closely pressed to the "host" as is the normal growth form for a juvenile Monstera dubia since they appear to be raised. If you ever seen Monstera dubia growing on a wall it looks more like a drawing or a painting more than a plant." -Steve Lucas


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## ExoticRainforest

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

I was asked to take a look at EricM's photo. Based only on the photo which is not sharp I would say the plant is not _Monstera dubia_. I am not willing to offer an opinion as to the species without sharp photos which show much more detail. The plants I've seen in this thread are all juvenile and the adult specimens look nothing like these plants. There is a specimen of _Monstera dubia _on the wall at Fairchild Tropical Botanic Garden in Miami and it hugs the wall so closely you'd think it was painted on!

I serve on the board of governors of the International Aroid Society and we recently had quite a discussion about _Monstera dubia_. I've seen both juvenile and adult plants of _S. pictus _and _M. dubia _in the research greenhouse at the Missouri Botanical Garden in St. Louis. Just in case you're curious you can find an article about natural variation and why a leaf alone of a juvenile plant cannot be used to determine a species on my site: Exotic Rainforest private botanical garden Rare tropical plant and aroid collection Just look to the lower right corner of the homepage for the article on Natural Variation.

I sent a comparison photo to another of your members so you can make up your own minds. Hopefully he'll have it up shortly.

I grow mostly aroids (about 300 species) but do have a few invertebrates in my atrium. Great forum!

By the way, thanks Harry for the great _Anthurium cubense._ it is now quite large and growing rapidly!

Steve Lucas
Exotic Rainforest private botanical garden Rare tropical plant and aroid collection


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## harrywitmore

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

You're welcome Steve. It would be most likely dead if I kept it.

I have to agree that one cannot positively id these without seeing mature leaves. The only thing that troubles me about this plant is the leaf size. But, you never know. It surely hugs the wall similar to S pictus but I have not seen it shingle in a terrarium before nor have leaves that appear to be that small. In my experience it can sometimes take a long time for a cutting to start growing. Not sure why but some take off as soon as they are struck and some don't. We will need Eric to come back to get more information if he has it. Right now it's just a neat shingler. I don't think I have ever actually owned M dubia.


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## ExoticRainforest

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

I agree Harry. If the grower can post sharp photos showing both the upper and lower surface of the leaf blade, a good photo of the stem that supports the petiole and leaf and if at all possible a sharp photo of the cataphyll which surrounds a newly emerging leaf a better determination can be made.

I realize most of the folks on this forum are much more into the Dendrobates they grow than the plants I would like to recommend all use the resources of the International Aroid Society at International Aroid Society if the plant is thought to be an aroid. There is a search bar found at the lower left corner of the page and you'll find tons of links to discussions on Aroid l regarding commonly used plant names. 

The IAS has lots of detailed information available as well. Much of it may require some self education to understand some of the botanical terms but in the long run you'll learn far more about how to keep these plants healthy if you take the time to dig through them. Knowing where the plant originates in nature, where and how it grows in the forest including how much water and humidity it prefers is an important factor to making it grow.

I have just completed a simplified "glossary" of botanical terminology used in many of the scientific articles (close to 250 words and terms) which will appear in the 2010 issue of the IAS journal Aroideana. All members of the IAS receive a copy every summer. Once that article is published I'll also add it to my website but can't do so until after August.

I would also like to recommend anyone trying to find an aroid ID post the question and photo on Aroid l or on the IAS FACEBOOK page. You can find links to either on my site or on the IAS site at International Aroid Society

By the way, I've never been able to find a specimen of _Monstera dubia _either! It is far more difficult to find than most people realize! I have at least three plants that "look like" M. dubia but are not that species. 

When it comes to juvenile aroids you frequently just can't make a positive determination and the top experts like Dr. Tom Croat will often just give you a strange look if you ask! It is sort of like picking up a photo of a baby human being and trying to figure out what that baby will look like when it is grown. Aroids change more than most people will ever realize as they grow. If anyone reads my article on natural variation they'll have a better idea of the problem.

Steve
Exotic Rainforest private botanical garden Rare tropical plant and aroid collection


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## Frogtofall

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

Just some other things I noticed about this mystery plant. While it may not be M. dubia, I still feel it ain't S. pictus either. Notably 3 things... S. pictus foliage is often "lop sided" where the inside edge is curved inward, almost like little crescent moons. The other is the stem. I have only ever seen S. pictus with the lighter, creamy green stems. The stem in the photo is obviously dark green. Also, in the very upper most leaf in the photo, the mid vein is rather conspicuous. I don't think I've ever seen S. pictus show that trait either, not even when dehydrated.

While leaf size is often culturally influenced, I don't think any S. pictus leaf size could get that small. I'd love to see a seedling of S. pictus b/c I am willing to bet its leaves aren't that small either.

I also find it hilarious that over the course of history, many of the mystery photos that cause argument just happen to be blurry. Haha. Loch ness, aliens, ect.


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## ExoticRainforest

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

Dr. Croat at the Missouri Botanical Garden has explained many times neither color nor size has anything to do with a species. Growers should not try to make determinations based on casual observations. Natural variation within species also makes such determinations very difficult. _Philodendron hederaceum _which is known as _P. scandens. P. oxycardium _and a bunch of other names can take on perhaps 1000 juvenile forms in the wild and all look very different. Yet when the grow they all become basically the same adult form. During the 1700 and 1800's many botanists made some major errors by declaring plants that had no burgundy on the underside of the blade or were more or less velutinous (velvet) in appearance a new species. Species determinations have to be made by examining the shape of the petiole, the venation (vein structure) shape of the cataphyll, sexual parts of the inflorescence and many other characteristics. Even these may change from region to region and specimen to specimen. The way a leaf margin may roll or fold also plays no scientific part in the determination. All these are just casual observations. The cataphyll can easily be one of the most important ways to determine a species in some cases but the ultimate source is the inflorescence and its sexual characteristics. No one is going to see that in a juvenile plant.

I'll see if I can find a scientific description of _S pictus _and give you some things to look at as a source of a positive ID. Even that will be tough since the juvenile form morphs as it ages in the same way a baby morphs from age 3 months to age three to age 6 to sexual pubescence and into adulthood.


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## ExoticRainforest

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

I just shot a note off to botanist Pete Boyce in Malaysia and will post what I learn ASAP. In the meantime take a look at this volume of the International Aroid Society newsletter. Pete has some info on these species in the article and you can see a photo that can be enlarged as figure 51 of _Scindapsus pictus_. Pete is one of the top experts in the world on the aroids of SE Asia.

IAS Newsletter Vol 31, No 2 

Some of you might find the other photos useful as well. Be sure and read the article. If anyone is interested in joining the IAS you will receive newsletters just like this 4 times every year as well as have access to 31 years of back issues.

I'm trying now to find a scientific description but everything I'm reading in the major texts indicates this species is highly variable and takes on many forms. Slight variations such as blade color or the leaf margin (edge) just can't be used to determine if a plant is this species or simply a natural variation.

Articles about many of the plants you grow can be found on the IAS website International Aroid Society Just use the search in the lower left corner. A great deal of data is available to members but not all of the data is open to the public


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## ExoticRainforest

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



Frogtofall said:


> I don't think its S. pictus either. Mostly b/c of the poster's comment....
> 
> "Its taken me years to get it going."
> 
> There is no way in hell Scindapsus pictus is gonna take that long to get going no matter what you're doing. ;-)


I've gone back to read much of this thread and just thought I'd pass along this bit of info.

I've had a cutting of _Scindapsus pictus _for three years and it will not adhere to a totem in my atrium. In fact, it has hardly grown at all!

Just take a look at the photos on the homepage of my site and you'll see I grow in a building that was specially constructed to duplicate a rain forest and still the plant will not grow the way I'd like for it to grow. My plants always experience high humidity, near perfect temps and misting via an overhead mist system. Many of them are now fully adult and reproduce exactly the way they do in the forest.

There are many factors to be considered to ensure a plant will perform as expected so once again I would have to say that an observation such as this just can't be used to determine if the plant in the photo is or is not _S. pictus_. I mean absolutely no disrespect to a grower that obviously knows their plants.

Wish I could help more but regardless of your experience level there are always new curves thrown at you. The best bet would be to compare the scientific characteristics to the plant itself but that is also a problem since the plant in the photo is a juvenile. Juveniles change as they grow.

Steve


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## Frogtofall

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

I'd like to point out that even in photo 51 of the link you posted the leaves have a shorter side than the other. That must be a consistency which the plant in question does not posses.

I have a strong understanding of species variation especially growing Dischidia. Even so, there are notable consistencies that help determine ID. 

I still haven't been convinced. Would love Eric to post a better photo.


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## Frogtofall

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

I guess an argument for it being S. pictus would be the fact that its much more easily obtainable than just about any other shingling Aroid.

Also, if a Moderator sees this post, could you please remove this whole debacle to its own thread? We've gone grossly off topic here...


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## harrywitmore

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



Frogtofall said:


> I also find it hilarious that over the course of history, many of the mystery photos that cause argument just happen to be blurry. Haha. Loch ness, aliens, ect.


That made me laugh out loud!



> Also, if a Moderator sees this post, could you please remove this whole debacle to its own thread? We've gone grossly off topic here...


I was thinking the same thing but you beat me to it.


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## ExoticRainforest

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

In response to a post I made earlier on this thread regarding _Scindapsus pictus _this just arrived from aroid botanist Pete Boyce in Malaysia regarding the characteristics of that species. I've added some notes to help those that don't speak "botanese". I realize this is somewhat technical but Harry can "translate" anything that is not clear. I think parts of the second paragraph are very important so I've underlined them.

Thanks for allowing me to briefly intrude on your forum! By the way, this species does not remain small and can easily grow to 6 to 8 inches in the wild (15 to 20cm). It is also highly variable and can take on many color variations and forms.

Steve Lucas
Exotic Rainforest private botanical garden Rare tropical plant and aroid collection


_Scindapsus pictus_

Important characteristics include a minutely warty stem _(the stem is the main axis of the plant, not the support for any single leaf)_, with older sections drying distinctively orange-brown and the leaves with a matte but scintillating or iridescent surface generated by refractive cells in the epidermis. _(Dried specimens are more important to a positive ID than a living specimen since characteristics can be seen on a dried plant that are not apparent in a living specimen)_.

The juvenile and pre-adult leaves are broadly obelliptic _(both oblong and eliptic)_ with cordate _(heart shaped)_ bases, and somewhat oblique _(slanting sideways); _ juvenile leaves are often, but by no means always, strikingly variegated with irregular silvery grey spots. In natural habitat the pre-adult stage climbs high into the canopy with the leave oppressed _(closely pressed)_ to the climbing surface. The adult stage has sickle-shaped (falcate) leaves that lose their iridescent quality, and the stems hang free to form substantial curtains. 

Flowering occurs at the tips of the pendent _(downward hanging)_ adult stems, with the inflorescence solitary and erect by twisting of the peduncle _(support of an inflorescence)_ on the shoot tip. 

About the only species that can be confused with _Scindapsus pictus _is _Scindapsus lucens_.  This also has minutely warty stems and obelliptic, cordate-based leaves, but these are a pale grey or green in colour, glossy (not scintillating / iridescent) and further are conspicuously bullate _(bullate means warty)_ between the primary lateral veins. _(The primaries are the major veins)_ The leaf shape does not alter as plants reach maturity. 

In habitat _Scindapsus lucens _climbs to only a few metres, flowers on short, lateral shoots arising from the climbing stems, and does not produce curtains of free stems from the canopy.


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## EricM

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

here are some more shots of the plant. I only have a point and shoot camera and no photography skills and no zoom lens, so the focus is crap.

I got this plant as a Scindapsus sp. and had to wait about a year to get a cutting with 3 leaves on it. I put it in the tank you see in the photos and within the first couple of months it dropped two leaves. The last leaf finally fell off about a year later. I then buried the rhizome/stem in the moss. About a year later the plant started growing and it has moved up the glass in the last 5 months.

the first is the belly shot
second is the plant 
third there is a dime placed for size scale

thanks
Eric


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## james67

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

no ideas, but if it ever grows big enough for some cuttings i have some suggestions on where to send them 

james


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## frogparty

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

you knew it was a scindapsus all along?


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## james67

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

the leaves look very small and the growth habit seems different to me. (than the pictus it looks just like)

james


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## Frogtofall

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



frogparty said:


> you knew it was a scindapsus all along?


Haha! Thats what I was thinking too. 

It still doesn't look like S. pictus though!!  Now it looks more like the M. dubia pics we've seen.

Haha!!


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## harrywitmore

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

I'm still having a very hard time with Scindapsus. Is the stem warty like Peter mentioned. I would call the stem on mine pebbly though.


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## EricM

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

That's not what I said, I acquired it as a Scindapsus sp. and after consulting the source he thought it could be M. dubia. So really I don't know and still don't, that is why I placed the shot here to see what people think, obviously from Steve's posts even the aroiders need more than juvenile plants to tell what something might be.

I have asked the person I got the plant from if it is ok to name him but so far I haven't gotten a response. This is just pure courtesy and not that I like churning the pot with "mystery" or the fact that I need attention. Just trying to ID a plant.

Thanks
ERic


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## frogparty

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

Regardless of what it is, I like it. I need more shinglers


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## araceae

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



Frogtofall said:


> Haha! Thats what I was thinking too.
> 
> It still doesn't look like S. pictus though!!  Now it looks more like the M. dubia pics we've seen.
> 
> Haha!!


what M.dubia pics have you seen? would you like to share them? you seem to know sooo much about this.


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## markbudde

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



araceae said:


> what M.dubia pics have you seen? would you like to share them? you seem to know sooo much about this.


Can this please be moved to another thread?


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## harrywitmore

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

Are there mods here? This is a good thread but it does need to be somewhere else.


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## NathanB

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

they are reviewing it, or were yesterday anyway


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## JoshH

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

We could make a Shingler ID thread, and just continue over there......then MODs could move the rest of the post over if they want


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## Frogtofall

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



araceae said:


> what M.dubia pics have you seen? would you like to share them? you seem to know sooo much about this.


Umm... Okay smart ass...

The first 2 are pictures YOU posted...










From IAS










These 2 are from ARACEAE (Photos taken by: *David Scherberich)*



















Is that enough for you??? FYI, I was trying to have fun here. Don't go getting your feelings hurt b/c people don't agree with you. I understand you ran for back up but its okay. If its proven to be S. pictus, M. dubia or some other plant, I won't lose a wink of sleep I guarantee you.


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## zBrinks

Thread moved. Next time, please try and stay more on topic, or at least don't go off on a rant for 5 pages. Picking out related posts wasn't really the break I was looking for between shoveling all this darn snow.


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## JoshH

Erics aroid is some sort of Monstera, and still most likely dubia. His latest pics look very similar to juvenile foliage examples that I've seen from Panama, Costa Rica, and in collections. That said, damn near every locality I've seen is a bit different, with some variants having no spotting at all.

If you look at the way the white spots are arranged they run along a lateral vein. They run in the same pattern as dubia, whereas the white blotching in S. pictus is all over the place. Not saying that that makes a positive ID, but its a clue. I might be able to dig up some photos that are really close to Erics plant and are positively ID'd.

In reality, the best way to really ID it is to send me a piece, and I'll grow it out and get back to you when it matures a bit....;-)


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## araceae

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*



Frogtofall said:


> Umm... Okay smart ass...
> 
> The first 2 are pictures YOU posted...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From IAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These 2 are from ARACEAE (Photos taken by: *David Scherberich)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that enough for you??? FYI, I was trying to have fun here. Don't go getting your feelings hurt b/c people don't agree with you. I understand you ran for back up but its okay. If its proven to be S. pictus, M. dubia or some other plant, I won't lose a wink of sleep I guarantee you.


why would my feelings be hurt??
I wont get mad if people dont agree with me, but I will admit if I am wrong.


Yea I asked a verry intelligent friend about the plant, I didnt 'Run for backup' this isnt a fight.

It dosent seem to be S.pictus *OR* M.dubia, so you were wrong too.


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## Frogtofall

*Re: What have you got in foliage?*

I never said it was either. I said it looked like or didn't look like one or the other.


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## araceae

It is a Juvi. Monstera pinnatipartita

http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Monstera pinnatipartita pc.html


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## JoshH

more importantly.....those pics also suggest that most of the plants in the hobby labelled as Monstera siltepecana might really be M. pinnatipartita.....


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## araceae

http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Monstera siltepecana. pc.html


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## NathanB

whats this? i've seen it at the DC botanical garden too


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## ExoticRainforest

Hi! I just couldn't resist this one.

Both of my juvenile specimens were identified by Dr. Tom Croat of the Missouri Botanical Garden and Dylan Hannon of the Huntington in California. Harry can tell you these guys are among the very best aroid botanists in the world. Tom is the top aroid botanist in the field of Philodendron, _Anthurium_ and _Monstera_ living today. 

I've been chasing this info for some months and sent all the photos to 8 botanists. These guys re among the very best and many had not seen either juvenile plant in the wild since _Monstera_ is a little studied genus. As of right now there are only 32 to 36 known species despite the fact there are many more names floating around. Almost all have been sunk into synonym with one of the previously published plants since there are so many natural variations.

Go to my homepage, look to the lower right corner and you'll see both species listed in the last column. Check both pages and you'll see and read the differences. I also posted a photo of _Monstera dubia _so it can easily be compared.

I realize this is confusing because It has confused the blazes out of a bunch of us. I just confirmed all of this again with an expert in Hawaii so I am confident the info on both pages is accurate.

Hope that helps!

Steve Lucas
www.ExoticRainforest.com


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## ExoticRainforest

While I'm at it!

I'd like to invite all of you to join us at the Missouri Botanical Garden on April 24 for the MidAmerica Meeting of the International Aroid Society. You do not need to join the IAS to attend!!!

You will be able to meet Dr. Croat, ask all sorts of questions of several aroid experts as well as have a private tour of the aroid research green house. *This facility is not open to the public so this is a rare invitation!*

MOBOT has one of the most incredible public displays of tropical plants in the world as well in their enormous glass atrium! 

You can read all the details on our FACEBOOK page:

International Aroid Society | Facebook

The only cost is the admission to the garden which I believe is $8. There will be a number of meetings, talks and a plant exchange. Dr. Croat has also promised some specimens from their own collection to those that attend and I will bring cuttings from my own collection.

Steve


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## Corpus Callosum

After looking at those last two links, now it's looking like the plant I got as Monstera siltepecana is really Monstera pinnatipartita, and the plant I got as Monstera dobsoniana is really Monstera siltepecana.

Nate your photo looks like Monstera pinnatipartita too.


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## ChrisK

Corpus Callosum said:


> After looking at those last two links, now it's looking like the plant I got as Monstera siltepecana is really Monstera pinnatipartita


Yeah same for me


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## harrywitmore

I don't think so. I have grown this plant for many years (sold tons of it as M siltepecana) and I have never seen it shingle like Eric's. It also seems to produce larger leaves even from small leafless stem cuttings.


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## harrywitmore

araceae said:


> It is a Juvi. Monstera pinnatipartita
> 
> http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Monstera pinnatipartita pc.html


 Let me clarify my previous post. I was responding to this quoted post and not Steve's pages on Monstera siltepecana and pinnatipartita. I did not notice how many comments had happened since this post. I know Steve did quite a bit of research to determine the real id of what we all had as siltepecana. I suspect allot of what is out there came from me. I have sold LOTS of it over the past ten years.

I just have never seen that particular plant behave as Eric's is so I still reserve judgement on it's identity. I don't think there is any way to be sure based on the growth he has at this time.


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## JoshH

harrywitmore said:


> Let me clarify my previous post. I was responding to this quoted post and not Steve's pages on Monstera siltepecana and pinnatipartita. I did not notice how many comments had happened since this post. I know Steve did quite a bit of research to determine the real id of what we all had as siltepecana. I suspect allot of what is out there came from me. I have sold LOTS of it over the past ten years.
> 
> I just have never seen that particular plant behave as Eric's is so I still reserve judgement on it's identity. I don't think there is any way to be sure based on the growth he has at this time.


So are you concurring that "our" M. siltepecana is actually M. pinnatipartita? 

And I also don't think that Erics plant is either of those species....but still a variation of dubia (or an unknown).


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## harrywitmore

Let me put it this way. I'm not saying I'm positive it's what I had it tagged as. I know Steve is relentless in his digging to find the id of a species. So, whatever he comes up with I tend to agree. But, without mature foliage and a flower it's hard to be positive. This particular genus is not well known and not too many people have even studied it.


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## araceae

From Steve:

'OK guys, I think I've found your mystery Monstera.
This is the juvenile form of Monstera spruceana. I am almost sure the out of focus photo is this species. The photo was taken by my very good friend Joep Moonen in French Guiana.' -Steve

Also everyone is invited to come to Missouri Botanical Garden for the MidAmerica Chapter meeting of the International Aroid Society.

'Joep is a Dutch naturalist who has lived in French Guiana for many years and has been the director of several zoos. He frequently takes scientists into the rain forest of French Guiana and northern Brazil in search of new plant, insect and animal species.
meet Joep (pronounced yupe) at the meeting. No one has to join the IAS to attend.' -Steve

International Aroid Society


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## ExoticRainforest

Harry is absolutely correct. Any good aroid botanist will tell you it is virtually impossible to be absolutely positive of the species unless you see both a fully developed leaf and a fully developed inflorescence. A fully grown cataphyll will often help since it can be a very important key to the true species. But when dealing with juvenile plants you are mostly guessing and hoping although some species do have very distinctive juvenile forms.

Most aroids will be substantially larger in the adult form than the juvenile plants grown in a vivarium or terrarium. 

I just received photos today of the species in the photo just above and it looks zero like this photo. The adult blades are well over 60 cm (2 feet) in size.

When anyone posts a photo for a good ID it is always best to give closeups of these features and information since they can be keyed out:

1 Photo of the top of the leaf blade (adaxial surface) showing all the detail, especially the vein structure
2 Photo of the bottom of the leaf (abaxial surface) Differences in the glossiness of the leaf on the top and bottom are important. Also make sure you point out if veins are raised or sunken and tell if you see any lines or grooves in the veins.
3 Photo of the petiole with any information about the shape such as if there are grooves, parallel lines, or anything else distinctive
4 Photo of the stem showing the nodes, roots and internodes

A photo of a leaf blade alone, especially from a distance, can tell very little to a trained botanist or student researcher since all aroids are variable.



Steve


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