# 29g "dense forest"



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Hey everyone, been nagging the mods to destroy the 20H thread, as i'm doing a 29g and am changing a lot. So i've ordered the tank online from a custom tank builder (20$ + 20$ shipping for a regular 29g, cheaper than my LFS) and will come in very early September. So i'm starting to gather supplies, starting with this beautiful piece of Mopani driftwood I got from my LFS for 7$. I'm currently boiling it in my 15 gallon bucket for turkeys. I'll boil it for a good 3-4 hours to kill anything and get rid of tannins, even thoughi t's been heat treated already. 









It's approx. 13 inches long, and there's many spots of some bromeliads, orchids, and tilladanasias. Tomorrow or the day after tomorrow I will go to my hardware store and purchase the blue can of great stuff and 3 tubes of GE II black silicone. Then i'll spread 1 tube of silicone along the back and place my wood onto it so it doesn't move during foaming. A local board member has offered me a bag of free ficus pumila from his awesome vivarium, and I will use this in this tank. I will get more plants soon also. Tell me what you think and if mods could delete that other thread, it would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Hey guys. Looks like the tank's coming really early, like maybe tomorrow early! I am trying to build a stand for it but need some 2x4s and plywood...


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Thats a nice piece of drift wood.....


----------



## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Mopani is pretty heavy so be sure to silicone that peice of wood straight to the glass thn spraying your GS after it cures if you plan on hanging it on the background.
If you're planning on leaning it up against your background or just laying it on the floor then you don't have to secure it.
The reason this is done is cause the weight of the wood could rip your entire background down...


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Mopani is pretty heavy so be sure to silicone that peice of wood straight to the glass thn spraying your GS after it cures if you plan on hanging it on the background.
> If you're planning on leaning it up against your background or just laying it on the floor then you don't have to secure it.
> The reason this is done is cause the weight of the wood could rip your entire background down...


Thanks. I know it's heavy! This chunk weighs 12 pounds o.o
I will carefully silicone it to the back, let that cure, spray foam around it, let that cure, then spray foam on the entire background.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Hey guys. I'm currently building the stand for the tank, and might I add, it is a pain in the arse! I have to cut little notches and stuff VERY carefully and exact. I'll post pics in a few. I also think I really overbuilt the stand . Need to sand it down and stain it, let alone put it all together.....


----------



## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Are you sure thats mopani? Looks like grapevine to me. Its not as dense as mopani so it can rot a little in the viv, but its lighter so better for bgs. It will almost certainly mold, but if you seed the tank it should clear up. I had a bunch in an old treefrog viv that I didn't seed and the mold cleared up on its own (there were a few "volunteer" springs and isos, which may have helped some). The only rotting I experienced was on pieces that were partially buried in the substrate directly next to a water feature. Also, termites love it so be aware of that (I fed too many termites one day and they made a nice little home in my viv). Good luck with your build and keep us all updated.


----------



## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

Neontra said:


> ...
> It's approx. 13 inches long...





Neontra said:


> Thanks. I know it's heavy! This chunk weighs 12 pounds...





fieldnstream said:


> Are you sure thats mopani? Looks like grapevine to me....


At 13 in. and 12 lbs., it doesn't sound like grapevine.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

I was thinking it *might* be grapewood, but after trying to drill a hole for a bromeliad, it almost ruined the drill (no pun intended!) and I put it in a shoebox for a week and it didn't mold. Now for an update! I'm getting the tank tomorrow if I can get out of the house to pick it up at the post office. Here's a stand I had one hell of a time making, and it still needs a little work. Also my living hinge for the top came today. I now know why aquarium stands are so expensive, they're hard to make!!!!





































Thanks to the people on aquarium forums for teaching me how to do this. This stand is for a design for a 400g aquarium, so wayyyyyyyy overkill for what I need, but i'm a bit concerned at times about my tanks structure. Next before I can put the tank on it is adding a few more nail gun staples and staining.


----------



## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Golden State Mantellas said:


> At 13 in. and 12 lbs., it doesn't sound like grapevine.


Yep I totally mis-read that...thought it said 13 inches and 1.2 lbs...nice catch. Gotta admit it does look like grapevine though. 
Mopani will hold up way better than gravevine and that piece looks awesome. The thing that keeps me from using much mopani is its two-tone look, don't see much of that on the piece...great find. Might need some chain to hold it to the bg though


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Hey guys. The stains on, and boy was it hard! It looks very nice though. So now i gotta make the tank 











This will go on the bottom to act as a storage shelf.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

I hope someone can answer this... For plants, I have a nice midget in my auratus viv along with a huge neo zoe. They each have about 4 pups that are growing very fast. I was wondering, could I use those pups in this tank? It would save me from having to buy bromeliads, but i've read something like pathogens could be an issue? What if I had another auratus in this tank? I would prefer luecs or tincs but another auratus couldn't hurt...


----------



## Krenshaw22 (Apr 21, 2011)

Just use a soapy bleach solution for it and it should be fine


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

So i've prepared a plant list. I will get about half my plants at my nursery , and will order some online. I am getting a ziploc bag stuffed of ficus pumila (I hope  ), already have bromeliad pups, and was going to use a cool plant I have (or used to be cool) plant called pilea tiny tears (not baby tears). It gets ugly and leggy very fast. 
By the way, free shipping ftw. Save me 30$!

1x Peperomia Trinervula - 2 cuttings

1x Button Fern

2x Peacock Spikemoss

1x Peperomia Glabella

1x Peperomia Green Scandens - 2 cuttings

1x Neoregelia ampullacea (My fav brom)

1x Live Mood Moss (1 gallon)

Also

1x Hydroton 10L (8/16 mm)

1x ABG mix (8 quart)

Doesn't cost me an arm and a leg, thank god.


----------



## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Neontra said:


> So i've prepared a plant list. I will get about half my plants at my nursery , and will order some online. I am getting a ziploc bag stuffed of ficus pumila (I hope  ), already have bromeliad pups, and was going to use a cool plant I have (or used to be cool) plant called pilea tiny tears (not baby tears). It gets ugly and leggy very fast.
> By the way, free shipping ftw. Save me 30$!
> 
> 1x Peperomia Trinervula - 2 cuttings
> ...


Where you getting free shipping from  or how lol


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Where you getting free shipping from  or how lol


joshsfrogs has free shipping if you spend over 50$


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Update: I got the tank today. It's very nice. Still need to get GS and silicone


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Getting 2 cans of Great stuff: Window and door to foam everything (expands the least IMO) and 2 tubes of GE II black silicone. I'm looking for nice positions for the piece of wood I bought, as i'm foaming it into the background. I like this the most, as it will create a "cave" in the left corner, whichIMO, looks really natural/cool. I am using my substrate mixture (as i'm buying ABG substrate) which consists of partially dried aspen leaves, coco fibers (entire fibers), and peat. Might mix in a little something else if I can find something. I think this will come out much better than my first vivarium for my auratus, as I have more height to work with. Still not any suggestions. Anyone? The only other way that would look nice with the wood would be a stump kind of bit, with looks ok I guess. By the way, the tank is a little deeper than the stand, but i think it's ok. Sorry not much has been going on with this, just started school again.


----------



## Dart66 (Aug 24, 2011)

cant wait to see it finished


----------



## dendrorani (Jan 30, 2009)

exited to see how you approach your project of dense forest!

Rani


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

dendrorani said:


> exited to see how you approach your project of dense forest!
> 
> Rani


I'm excited too. I was going to get the foam today, but I got home at 5:00, then got something to eat, etc and my local HW store was closed. I'll have to get it tomorrow. The mixture i'm putting on the foam looks way better than straight peat or coco fibres, it has a nice texture and other stuff. After a;ready doing a so-so tank, I wan't a nice show tank in my room. The reason I named it "Dense forest" is because after a trip to Venezuela, I studied the habitat of a few poison dart frogs, and noticed that the forest floor is covered in a very moist substrate covered in hundreds of leaves/square yard and there are many pieces of fallen wood, small plants, and other nice mosses and stuff.

I basically am aiming for something similar to what I saw, and will have small ferns growing on the background and on the wood, with other small plants supplemented by a few larger bromeliads. I might have to change my plant list again because I loved what I saw in Venezuela and want similar plants. I haven't quite seen too many vivariums replicating a natural enviorment or a chunk of the rain forest, except for a few.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

This vivarium, one of my favorites, closely replicates the forest floor. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/67898-my-jungle-5.html
There's a few others I can't seem to find. I think something that helps make a vivarium "natural" is the ferns and broad leaf plants. Ficus pumila, a little won't hurt, but isn't very natural, IMO of course. But that's just IMO, and others will probably disagree


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Big update!!! The GS foam is on and expanding right now. I got 1 16 oz can of the window and door. Might I say, it's almost neon yellow, while the rest (but for pond stone) is a cream color. Not an issue, but I was just surprised. I also got 1 tube of GE II black silicone to put the stuff to cover the foam. I'll post pictures once the foam dries. I added the wooden log in a way so it creates a nice cliff hangover, to give refuge to the frog(s).


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Fully expanded, poked a few holes to outgas, still a tiny bit soft. Am I going to put on the silicone and peat tonight? I sure hope so! Like I said, school is becoming a problem, I have like no time to build this lol. 


















Possible ventilation system (Thanks Doug for tutorial) but everything is growing very fast in my other viv with no vent.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Update....


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

alright. Substrate and hydroton is on it's way, but after looking over prices, i'll have to get the plants at my awesome local nursery, which no joke, has thousands of tropicals. Sorry for the bad pictures guys. This time, thank god, the foam hasn't shrunk off the glass! PHEW! I was so worried!!! So I was thinking. I ordered 10 litres of hydroton and 8 litres of ABG, premixed, and will mix the ABG with my semi-organic, healthy substrate that doesn't drain too well, which consists of 3 parts peat, 2 parts non grounded coco fibres, and 1 part aspen leaves (decomposing, will also add romaine or iceberg lettuce to substrate) which will perk up the ABG. Then for plants. I like the plants i've chosen, but, after seeing some of my favorite vivariums, ferns as I already said, are a must. I.E, button fern is nice, maybe some whites rabbit foot fern (I have some black rabbit foot, but i CANNOT propagate it, no idea why...), some spikemoss (I hope my nursery has some spikemoss, never seen it, but last time I was there I didn't even know about frog vivas), baby tears, ficus pumila, and some others i'll have to find at the nursery. No responses since I posted pics  Any suggestions? I love hearing what others have to say  Sorry for the long post


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Sorry for posting like 10 times in a row, lol! But even though the silicone hasn't "fumed out", I misting the background and substrate, to get an idea of the final idea. Looks great. These pictures represent different lighting exposures. The first one is what i see.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Organic substrate


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
I promise no more picture until it's DONE


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Sneak peaks
Red wandering Jew flowering









"Custom mix"
1 part peat
1 part aspen leaves
1 part red oak leaves
1 part 20 year old pine bark
1 part spagnum
1 part organic charcoal
1 part activated charcoal
Mixed 50/50 with regular ABG
With red oak leaf litter


----------



## nschmitz06 (Feb 20, 2011)

Neontra said:


> Sneak peaks
> 1 part 20 year old pine bark


I thought pine was a bad idea because it leaches? What makes you use pine bark instead of orchid "fir"? Looking good so far!


----------



## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

nschmitz06 said:


> I thought pine was a bad idea because it leaches? What makes you use pine bark instead of orchid "fir"? Looking good so far!


fir is pine...


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Fir is a type of pine, but not a type of conifer. Conifers leach a chemical in it's sap that many years ago was used widely in the pesticide industry because it's toxic to bugs and smaller animals. The reason I said 20 year old pine bark, is because it's been out in the harsh weather for many many years, and I can absolutely 1000000% guarantee there's non of the sap left.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Sorry for not updating, but i'm trying to get some money in right now, having to sell some stuff, so it's been slow. Thanks to everyone telling me that my "Custom mix" was bad, could of been a problem. I will be using the plants in my 20 long in this viv, along with others. Also will be adding my beautiful turquoise and black auratus. He (I am 95% sure it's a male, it isn't plump like a female) is doing great, and will probably turn that 20 long into an aquarium, because the foam came off of it.

The plant list includes
Black rabbit foot fern
Ficus pumila
Golden pothos
Button fern
Alocasia reginula 'Black Velvet' 
Bolivian Wandering Jew
Baby Tears
Pilea red stem
Wandering Jew "Burgundy"
Wandering Jew "Red" 
1 unknown plant, my profile pic is the unknown plant. Has a red fluid in the stems, wasn't labeled)
Tradescantia Zebrina Quadricolor Wandering Jew ( I think it's same as burgundy)
Another unknown (Wandering jew) Very slow grower, I had the name but lost it...
Neoregelia "Zoe"
Neoregelia "Midget" pupping
Neoregelia "Midget" Full grown pup
Peacock spike moss
And a few others I don't have the names of, or can't remember.
Leaf litter: Type of Red Oak
Substrate: Pure ABG
Drainage: LECA


----------



## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Neontra said:


> Fir is a type of pine, but not a type of conifer


I'm kinda curious, what leads you to believe that fir trees are not conifers? A fir tree is in the Pinaceae family, which are all coniferous.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

freaky_tah said:


> I'm kinda curious, what leads you to believe that fir trees are not conifers? A fir tree is in the Pinaceae family, which are all coniferous.


I have no idea really, I don't know my trees. What i meant my conifer was that fresh pine smell,


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Hey guys. Just a little sidenote, i've made 4 cultures already out of my very first one. I'm getting better results than my original culture (which had rephasy media) and I'm not using brewers yeast, but only active yeast. I almost forgot about them as I was noticing my original culture slowly dying.
I don't remember the exact things i put in, but here's some.

6 cups potato powder
6 cups creamy wheat
2 cups brow sugar
1/4 cup cinnamon
a few large pinches of paprika
~1 cup vinegar
and a few other things. I put about 15 flies in 2 weeks ago and now I have atleast 1000. It just started to produce 2 days ago.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Hey guys. I couldn't resist,, so this is what happened. I've been anxious to get my substrate supplies, so I semi-fully set up the tank. It's planted, but here's the verdict. The substrate in there now is paper towels with leaf litter, and the frogs in there. I just wanted something to look at, you know?


----------



## Absolutbill (Aug 23, 2011)

Neontra said:


> Hey guys. Just a little sidenote, i've made 4 cultures already out of my very first one. I'm getting better results than my original culture (which had rephasy media) and I'm not using brewers yeast, but only active yeast. I almost forgot about them as I was noticing my original culture slowly dying.
> I don't remember the exact things i put in, but here's some.
> 
> 6 cups potato powder
> ...


I don't mean to hijack, but you really use paprika? With a cooking background I find this interesting. May I ask where you first heard about using paprika, and what is the purpose of it. 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Absolutbill said:


> I don't mean to hijack, but you really use paprika? With a cooking background I find this interesting. May I ask where you first heard about using paprika, and what is the purpose of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I heard in some FF threads on this forum, that if you add some paprika to the media, it can help enhance the colour of the frog, but I don't think it matters too much, because I think it only helps with red colour.


----------



## kickedinthevader (Jan 30, 2011)

I really like how you have everything listed out the way you do. Makes it easy to understand exactly what you are doing. Not sure if you posted about this earlier (sorry if you did) but in addition to the flies will you be doing springtails or isopods?


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Yup, but not at first. I'll wait a little (I live near Doug (Pumilo), and i'll get my springs/isos from him. I've already started to notice some mold, but it comes and goes.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Dang! The temps were 82f in there! I had a 5500k T8 and 2 13w 6500k CFLs on top. I used foam cups to rise the lights and also have a fan blowing the air out. Temps are 72f there now. Phew!


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Neontra said:


> I heard in some FF threads on this forum, that if you add some paprika to the media, it can help enhance the colour of the frog, but I don't think it matters too much, because I think it only helps with red colour.


Do you ever even use the search function? I really wish you could check your information before dispensing incorrect information at the drop of a hat. 

As has been repeatedly discussed in multiple threads, paprika is a very poor source of carotenoids that enable the frogs to color up red.. see for example (and a brief example out of 37 different possible threads..) 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/66727-paprika.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/26836-color-enhancers.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/49196-naturose-vs-paprika.html

If you want to take a bad road with your frogs, that is up to you, but it would greatly help if you didn't try to drag others down the road with you. 

If you had bothered to read the threads discussing carotenoid retention in fruit flies, you might have noticed that they do not retain the red carotenoids supplied by paprika.. instead they convert some of the beta carotene into a variation on rhodopsin..and are known from analysis to be a very poor source of carotenoids (the phrase used in the paper was non-detectable). This has also been discussed on here... 

Ed


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Ed said:


> Do you ever even use the search function? I really wish you could check your information before dispensing incorrect information at the drop of a hat.
> 
> As has been repeatedly discussed in multiple threads, paprika is a very poor source of carotenoids that enable the frogs to color up red.. see for example (and a brief example out of 37 different possible threads..)
> 
> ...


Yes of course I use the search function, but I didn't know that you have to dust the flies in it, as i've heard you can also use it in the media, but if that's the case Ed, i'll take the advice and go. I didn't really search up threads dedicated to paprika or supplements, but just read through the foum and saw a few posts saying they added paprika to their media to help enchance the colour,


----------



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

I think you might be thinking about cinnamon. Cinnamon works as a mold inhibitor in the cultures, and makes them smell a little nicer..but does nothing for color as far as I know..

Mark


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

My heart was pounding hard this morning, as it is getting colder and i left a window open, the temps wen't down to 50f. After tearing all the plants out, I thankfully saw my auratus under my rabbit foot fern. Was so relieved.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Neontra said:


> Yes of course I use the search function, but I didn't know that you have to dust the flies in it, as i've heard you can also use it in the media, but if that's the case Ed, i'll take the advice and go. I didn't really search up threads dedicated to paprika or supplements, but just read through the foum and saw a few posts saying they added paprika to their media to help enchance the colour,


 
Did you even read the links I provided? It doesn't look like it... as you are still not understanding the issue with paprika. 

I'm not sure how you missed my comments on paprika... but as I noted above you took some random bit of information and started regurgitating it as if you understood it to others on the forum. This is not the first time you have done so and it is a problem... I just had to question your recommendation for number of flies to feed in another thread as it also looks like you have significantly misunderstood that as well. 

Wanting to be helpful is fine, giving out incorrect or bad advice is not helpful it is harmful... If you want to screw up your frogs by ignoring the facts and running off on your own plans, I can't stop you but try not to take others down that path with you. 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Neontra said:


> My heart was pounding hard this morning, as it is getting colder and i left a window open, the temps wen't down to 50f. After tearing all the plants out, I thankfully saw my auratus under my rabbit foot fern. Was so relieved.


 
On what basis did you assume that ripping apart your cage was less harmful to the frog (not to mention allowing the internal air and materials to drop to that temperature) than leaving it alone to let the lights warm up the cage? 
Issues with thermal shock can take several weeks to appear but if the frog is severly stressed by the temperature drop ripping apart it's cage to look at it was probably one of the worst things you could do to it. 

I'm curious as to why you thought the frog couldn't take the temperature or is this a manufactured "crisis"?? 

Ed


----------



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

Wow. Chill out dude (neontra, not you, Ed.). You're going at this a little hot and heavy, haphazardly. Take your time to do your research and do everything right. If you're not sure of something, ASK FIRST. Don't just assume. Do you have a thermometer in the tank? I'm sure the tank didn't get as cold as your room did. Water is an insanely good insulator, and it takes alot more to change the temperature in a room that is 100% humidity than it does in a room that is 10-30% humidity for this reason. That's hy the coasts generally stay cooler in the summer and warmer in the winters as their surrounding cities and counties. Calm down, and start researching. It's apparent that you're running off of observation and what little reading you did come by..

Mark


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Markw said:


> Wow. Chill out dude (neontra, not you, Ed.). You're going at this a little hot and heavy, haphazardly. Take your time to do your research and do everything right. If you're not sure of something, ASK FIRST. Don't just assume. Do you have a thermometer in the tank? I'm sure the tank didn't get as cold as your room did. Water is an insanely good insulator, and it takes alot more to change the temperature in a room that is 100% humidity than it does in a room that is 10-30% humidity for this reason. That's hy the coasts generally stay cooler in the summer and warmer in the winters as their surrounding cities and counties. Calm down, and start researching. It's apparent that you're running off of observation and what little reading you did come by..
> 
> Mark


Yes I have 2 thermometers in the tank, an IR gun and a mercury one. The temps are back up in the mids 70's, as they should. I will be more cautious next time, and i won't rip apart the tank, as obviously that is very stressful, but I was very concerned that it might be dead, which is why I did that in the first place.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Was going to post this earlier. The hydroton and ABG (yes, none of my bs mix, it's the real ABG) are in. I got most of the stuff at a pet store, and the hydroton and tree fern fiber at a garden center. I replaced the regular charcoal with activated charcoal. Also, I have 2 lights on, one is a 5500k T8 and the other is a 2x 13w CFL fixture, which is raised off the top using styofoam cups. After the ordeal my auratus wen't through this morning, i'm not going to stick my hands in there for a while, hoping he will settle down. Still need springs isos, but otherwise, it's done. I used cypress instead of orchid bark because it has strands and bark, so it basically makes it more airy. Don't know if this is a common practice, but seems better than just orchid bark.
Also shown: The first FF culture i've started using my media, kinda blurry. The second one in the 32oz cup I started a few days ago, using paper towels and my media.







[/URL]








[/URL]








[/URL]








[/URL]








[/URL]








[/URL]








[/URL]








[/URL]

Oops, one more. The first time i've seen my auratus climb, and he's way up at the top.


----------



## Krenshaw22 (Apr 21, 2011)

That Frog In My Opinion Looks Skinny.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Krenshaw22 said:


> That Frog In My Opinion Looks Skinny.


This is his recommended feeding levels http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/72837-setting-up-substrate.html#post641955 

ignoring complexity of the tank, and whether or not it is well fruit fly proofed..


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Krenshaw22 said:


> That Frog In My Opinion Looks Skinny.


It is a little skinny right now because while it was in it's 20 long, it had trouble finding FFs, so I moved it into a temp container to gain weight, and then into here, and is much better able to find FFs now then in 20L.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Here we go. Found this thread, thiss is what my frog looks like at the moment. i feed 30 ffs everyday, and maybe every 3-4 days I might skip a feeding, but feed a little more the next day.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/63615-does-frog-look-skinny.html


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Neontra said:


> It is a little skinny right now because while it was in it's 20 long, it had trouble finding FFs, so I moved it into a temp container to gain weight, and then into here, and is much better able to find FFs now then in 20L.


If fed properly there shouldn't be any issues with a frog finding it's food.


----------



## Krenshaw22 (Apr 21, 2011)

Ed said:


> If fed properly there shouldn't be any issues with a frog finding it's food.


I Agree With Ed. To Get Weight On The Frog Add Fatty Foods But Don't Over Do It. For Fruitflys Like In The Link Stated Add A Banana Slice In The Tank And Feed In The Same Location So The Frog Knows Where Food Will Be. It'll Be Easier On The Frog To Find Food Also The Banana Will Attract Them Too.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Ed said:


> If fed properly there shouldn't be any issues with a frog finding it's food.


I'm trying to find up more information on it, but don't juvenile dart frogs only eat what's right in front of them, and as they get older, they hunt more? This seems to be my case at least, that I dump all the FFs right next to my dart, then he eats about half, then ignores the rest, but after a few hours I see almost none left.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Krenshaw22 said:


> I Agree With Ed. To Get Weight On The Frog Add Fatty Foods But Don't Over Do It. For Fruitflys Like In The Link Stated Add A Banana Slice In The Tank And Feed In The Same Location So The Frog Knows Where Food Will Be. It'll Be Easier On The Frog To Find Food Also The Banana Will Attract Them Too.


This sounds like a good idea to keep all the flies in one area, but is there an alternative to banana?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Neontra said:


> I'm trying to find up more information on it, but don't juvenile dart frogs only eat what's right in front of them, and as they get older, they hunt more? This seems to be my case at least, that I dump all the FFs right next to my dart, then he eats about half, then ignores the rest, but after a few hours I see almost none left.


No, there are no differences in hunting behavior between the two provided the frog is stable in the enclosure. If the frog is comfortable in the enclosure it will roam the entire cage seeking food. If it is uncomfortable then it will stay close to cover, and the more you muck with the cage while the frog is attempting to acclimate the worse it is for the frog. 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Neontra said:


> This sounds like a good idea to keep all the flies in one area, but is there an alternative to banana?


I use small pieces of orange with the peel on it.


----------



## Krenshaw22 (Apr 21, 2011)

It Could They Are Escaping Somewhere. Is Your Viv Escape Proof


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Krenshaw22 said:


> It Could They Are Escaping Somewhere. Is Your Viv Escape Proof


The 20 long I don't think was, but this tank, there is no way for them to escape. I think i'm going to find something in my fridge, there might be an orange, and apple, or something else I can use. Thanks.
Could spinach work? I also have some moldy grapes.


----------



## Krenshaw22 (Apr 21, 2011)

Neontra said:


> The 20 long I don't think was, but this tank, there is no way for them to escape. I think i'm going to find something in my fridge, there might be an orange, and apple, or something else I can use. Thanks.
> Could spinach work? I also have some moldy grapes.


Grapes The Flies Are Attracted To The Fruit Sweet Smell


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

My auratus is much more active today and is eating a lot more then it did. The last 2-3 days he's been hiding in that pilea on the wood not really moving much but i came home today and saw him hopping around and eating his melos. The wood was indeed grapewood, as it has slightly molded, but i'm starting to see small spore like things growing on it. Shroms possibly? I really hope he gains weight back and if all is well, in november i'll get another (female) and hopefully get some calling/eggs from then on. I think from adding some fruits like you guys suggested it has helped a lot.


----------



## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Here is a low-mess way to keep FFs around...distilled water cap and some banana.


----------



## Krenshaw22 (Apr 21, 2011)

That's good he's more active and eating keep his stress level to a minimum And he'll gain the weight.
+1 fieldnstream I like that idea


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Yeah I might try that over just dumping it in lol, it started to melt into my substrate so I put more bannana in, but i'll have to try putting it on a milk/soda/lid cap so it can be left there and easily removed.


----------



## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Neontra said:


> Yeah I might try that over just dumping it in lol, it started to melt into my substrate so I put more bannana in, but i'll have to try putting it on a milk/soda/lid cap so it can be left there and easily removed.


I'd leave it in the tank... It won't harm anything and I'm sure the microfauna would like it...


----------



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

Agreed with everything listed above. But, you don't have any microfauna. So itll only be a mold and fungus breeding ground. Also, DO NOT get a female yet. I mean..I can't tell you what to do, but it kind of seems like you're having trouble caring for the one you have. Get that down, get a readily available source of FFs (yours look fairly haphazardly done.), and get a breeding population of microfauna (multiple species of both springs and isos), and just let your guy settle in first. He's had a rough time thus far. Your viv isn't nearly established, and you're fairly inexperienced and unstable to bring on the responsibility of tads and froglets. 

Just a thought.
Mark


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Markw said:


> Agreed with everything listed above. But, you don't have any microfauna. So itll only be a mold and fungus breeding ground. Also, DO NOT get a female yet. I mean..I can't tell you what to do, but it kind of seems like you're having trouble caring for the one you have. Get that down, get a readily available source of FFs (yours look fairly haphazardly done.), and get a breeding population of microfauna (multiple species of both springs and isos), and just let your guy settle in first. He's had a rough time thus far. Your viv isn't nearly established, and you're fairly inexperienced and unstable to bring on the responsibility of tads and froglets.
> 
> Just a thought.
> Mark


I strongly agree with all you just said. I will get pink and white springs and giant orange isopods in the tank. I will not get a female yet for sure. Like I said though, if all is well I might get a female in november (which is the next show here). Not sure exactly what haphazardly means as theres many definitions online, but I will figure it out soon so I am getting a good steady supply of flies. As for tads and froglets, I will be sure to do tons of research and ask questions before I even get the female, even though the chances of getting breeding will probably be low from 1) age and 2) if the conditions are just right and 3) if they will even breed.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

First shrooms i've ever had, and not just shrooms, but a little slime mold, but I'll need to find out what it is or if they're even shrooms. All I can say about the mushrooms is they are white spores (I have mold on the wood, looks completely different than the supposed shrooms) about 1 cm tall, all over the semi wet areas of the wood. Then on the area it's wet almost 100% of the time I have this nasty slime mold, which looks cool, but I ain't gonna touch it! I've never had shrooms, or even mold in any of my tanks, so this is really cool. Trying to take good FTS, and a pic/movie of frog (is gaining weight back, slowly.)

Here's the slime









Couldn't take other pics as said, camera died, right as I started to get good pics.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Updated FTS, random pics, and a pic of my auratus gaining weight back on.
Please enjoy. Still waiting on ficus, but it can certainly wait as all the growth i'm getting is really nice. I'm loving this substrate by the way. I picked up some leaf litter to check things out, and some sphagnum moss is a light light green (algae, or growth?!) I forgot to ground it up, so i basically have long fiber spag in there but it's all good.


P9140028 by johnyrocks, on Flickr



P9140029 by johnyrocks, on Flickr

Photo stacking and very low ISO


P9140031 by johnyrocks, on Flickr



P9140027 by johnyrocks, on Flickr


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

*Photostacking*

Just an experiment with photo stacking. I'm using CombineZP and I took one picture focused on the broken glass, then took it away and focused on the background. I dropped a glass full of dirt, will post pictures of photo stacked plants soon once i get the hang of it.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Plants are really grown in.

Also, I found out my petsmart sells mini FF cultures (they're really cool, but the media is blue!). I decided to experiment with hydei. I was really freaked out when I saw wings on them, but I also found out they're FLIGHTLESS, not wingless -_- . I've made the last culture with my media, and then will be using Rephasy Superfly. The only issue with y media is it really attracts other FFs and does smell from up close. Rephasy and joshs kind of smells like pumpkin almost


----------



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

I'd watch getting the FFs from petco/petsmart. I used to get them there when I was raising Rudis Chameleons, and 99% of them had mites. This doesn't really matter when you're feeding them out, but when you're trying to make cultures from them, it could be a not-so-great thing.

Mark


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Markw said:


> I'd watch getting the FFs from petco/petsmart. I used to get them there when I was raising Rudis Chameleons, and 99% of them had mites. This doesn't really matter when you're feeding them out, but when you're trying to make cultures from them, it could be a not-so-great thing.
> 
> Mark


Thanks for the heads up. I closely inspected it when i got it for mites, and don't see any. My cultures are also on anti mite paper, but only time will tell.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As has been noted elsewhere, virtually all cultures have mites.. the goal is to manage them.. 

Ed


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

I felt this needed another update. Still working on btter pictures, but here's what i've got so far. 
~NOTE TO PEOPLE CONSIDERING GRAPEWOOD~
This does mold like freakin nuts, just a word for the wise. I am having a good time getting picture of it, but it looks like a really old piece of wood from a swamp. It's dark, and is slimy. I'm honestly afraid to touch it! I made a last minute decision to add a pot in a spot in the wood for my pelia plant, and my frog LOVES to hunt flies on and under the wood, then rest in the pelia. I once saw him jump for a fly and almost fell down 

Also, the second picture is my Neo. Midget giving off a pup. It's been 3 weeks and is now starting to open up. Thanks Josh's frogs! They sent me this brom with a pup on it (originally ordered their plant package, said 2 broms but they gave me 3 really, and now 4 ;p ) I need better bulbs to show off the midgets colors. It's kind of like really dense dark green and red broms but as of now is only a dark green with purple/red spots.

I just ordered some rephasy superfly media. Others say they have gotten great results. Of all honesty, i'd buy joshs if they sold in in smaller quantities *cough*

I'm considering buying a magfloat and rig it like Grimm did, since i'm using spring water (my tap water is spring) I might get residue build up. I have had that on an aquarium and is really hard to clean!!!


Enjoy!!!!



















Sorry about pic quality, i've been using 2 different cameras, and am considering a nice one for christmas


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

MY auratus is becoming much more plump, but still not close to as plump as i'd like. It's been eaten many more FFs now that i've switched to hydei (maybe they're easier for it to see?). One question though. Sometimes my auratus nose looks dark blue. It was sold to me as a juvenile turquoise and black auratus (i'm assuming this is what a costa rican auratus is) but like I said, sometimes it looks like it's nose is more like a blue and black auratus.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: 29g "dense forest" PLANT LIST*

Finally i've contacted my main seller for exact names of plants! I've kinda been just assuming on some, but this is what they are! pics
Pepperomia Puteolata








PHILODENDRON Black Cardinal








TRADESCANTIA SILLOMONTANA 








TRADESCANTIA ZEBRINA PURPUSSI








Nepenthes STENOPHYLLA (I believe this is a tropical carnivore, hard time getting ID back, he said it's probably this plant and it's imported from Malaysia, but i'ts growing great....)








Neo. Zoe








Neo midget
















Wandering jew red
















Black rabbit foot fern








Pilea tiny leaf








Golden pothos








One more, but Josh's frogs is down so I can't find the name of it.








I'm ordering some more pothos, some variegated and regular ficus pumila. Hopefully I can get it to grow this time...


Awful pic of frog...


----------



## eos (Dec 6, 2008)

*Re: 29g "dense forest" PLANT LIST*

Nice tank.... don't get any more pothos, you'll thank me later.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: 29g "dense forest" PLANT LIST*



eos said:


> Nice tank.... don't get any more pothos, you'll thank me later.


Thanks for the heads up! After seeing a few people with pothos in there tank, it looks like it takes over fast, and will no longer be as pretty


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Hello everyone. I just wanted to add I will not ever trim this tank iof it's plants because I want it to fill up like crazy, unless well, I am at the point the plants are growing out of my front door 

But now to my main point. In a few days I'm going to visit Panama and will hopefully look for Oophaga Pumilio, dendrobates tinctorious and of course if possible, Auratus. I am not sure if auratus or tincs come from Panama, but I am pretty certain there are some pumilio there. My goal is to study them for my biology classes and gather more information and get ideas for future builds.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm going to try one more media until I decide to buy a premade media. My last tries have either stunk like sh*t and/or not have the best production and/or the media turns dry no matter how much water i add. This one actually smells like apple cider and has a really nice consistency! I have had this sitting in a bowl in the fridge and it isn't dry (I think a week in the fridge) so that's a plus, also I left it out for 2 days after I microwaved it and didn't see any black mold (ALL of my medias have have mold at some point) so it's good so far. I just put about 10 hydei flies in today and dumped in about 50 hydei maggots to see how that goes. They're eating it so I guess that's good!

So here it is!

Yield 5 cultures

2 cups potato powder
1 cup powder sugar
4 cups regular applesauce
a few sprinkles of cinnamon/sugar (2TSP)
About 1/2 water 
Blended blueberries
1/2 bakers yeast

So like I said it smells super nice but what really matters to me is how well it'll produce!

What I used before:

Yield 10 cultures
6 cups potato powder
6 cups creamy wheat
2 cups brown sugar
1/4 cup cinnamon
1/4 cup active yeast

AND

Yield 10 cultures

6 cups potato powder 
6 cups creamy wheat
1/4 cup brewers yeast


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Hello all.
I purchased 1 springtail culture with cypress/coco/bark from NEHerp and 1 melo culture using Repashy media from them too. First try with springs so I can't wait! 
After I bought them I looked in my tank to see what bugs I already have, and to my amazement (and horror!) I saw tons of small white mites and larvae (I have tons of gnats my frog snacks on, I will have to guess that's why they're there) and a ton of other critters. I'm trying to get my FF issue under control and also get another source incase of another FF crash which is the main reason I bought the springs. Ed and I chatted about the grapewood and how fast it could break down. The little branches on it are showing no signs of the slightest decomposition _yet._ and nor does the larger areas, but it's only been a month. The wood does have green/white mold on the dry areas and where it touches the glass and as posted earlier tons of slime gunk everywhere else.
I sure hope the mites I saw aren't spider mites, that would be catastrophic for my plants.
Which reminds me....... I still need to get ficus pumila! I forgot it in my order so hopefully my local Wal mart can spare a few cuttings from their plants. Also i'm reconsidering pothos to fill up some areas. I noticed that if you look at the picture of the red wandering jew on the wood, that it has grown a lot since first put in. It's about 2 times as big as the latest posted fts, and is relly rooted down hard. 

I also saw my frog snatching at those little larvae, mites, and gnats which is 100% A OK with me because i'm having that FF culture crysis as mentioned earlier, which concludes that I will *never* try hydei again because i'm getting 1 fly a day from it. Which also leaves me to believe that since i'm not feeding a lot of FFs that my auratus isn't getting enough suppliments but there's not much I can do about that until I get my springs and FFs.

That was probably the most unnecessarily long post ever.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Finally a "good update" lol. I bought more plants. I decided I might pass on ficus pumila because this angel vine looks worse!
I took a pic of my auratus yesterday, it's been fairly prolific today. You can see that it's gained quite a bit of weight back on. Still not plump, though.









In this pic, my bromeliads aren't looking too good  I need to watch James vid over again to see how to get a internal circulation fan going.









Angel hair is really cool. It's like a large leaf peperomia prostata.









This little thing is called Hypoestes Splash Plant. I added more after these pics. Not too crazy about the pink, though.









A little asparagus fern I believe, it had no ID.









More Hypoestes Splash Plant, but this is green....


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think your broms want more light and more air. Can they be moved a little higher up on the background?


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

frogface said:


> I think your broms want more light and more air. Can they be moved a little higher up on the background?


The one on the left is alright and is actually growing tons of new leaves since put in here. I noticed some leaves on the middle one rotting so I switched over to 2 26w bulbs. A little before that the neo zoe on the far right started to droop a little. Since I put the lights on both rotting and dropping has stopped, but hasn't resolved. I'm hoping air circulation will help but if not i'll move them up.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm so relieved. My order of FFs came today along with my springtails. What a live saver! It is already packed full of flies, pupa, and larvae. My old FF culture just started to slow production (was a hydei culture) but this (a melo cluture, I don't think i'll try hydei again, or at least for a while) is just a big life saver. I seeded my tank with tons of springs. I put the majority of the springs (along with media) into my tank, while putting a few in my larger culture. This current culture is my first try with repashy superfly and i'll also be trying another media once this starts sending out adult FFs so I don't get another shortage..


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Thought i'd give you guys an update. So this tanki s almost 2 months in, and things are looking GREAT! The only thing not great is the fact i'm losing tons of leaves on the angel vine. But it's growing great along with everything else. I'll set up comparing pics to show you guys some things. another problem is that i haven't seen my frog for about a week, which really concerns me. I'll go looking if I don't see it soon. Ok, now for good stuff. So I seeded this tank on about October fourth with white springtails. Now if I dig into the substrate, literally a thousand springtails are crawling on my hand and jumping up! I' also amazed at how small the baby springs are compared to the adults. 
I'll post pics up in a bit but here's what to expect:
the red wandering jew is just plain stuck onto the grapewood and gs foam, and has grown about 10 inches for each clipping since put in. About half a month ago I switched from 2-13w CFLs (6700k) and 1-20w light (5500k) to 2-26w 6700k bulbs. My bromeliads are doing so much better and the neo. zoe is becoming REALLY dart red (almost purple) in the center and is showing pink areas on the leaves. I've never seen my frog in my bromeliads, but they're kind of a center piece in there. The pup from the Neo. midget already has a cup to it and is opening up. The fern I put in there is growing great and everything is basically going wild. I tried the method for keeping flies around (suggested by a few members) using banana but I had tons of FF larvae and fliers from other FFs getting into the viv. i'll be starting another 29g viv to house either d. auratus campana or some type of thumbs. The next one will be much better. I will not be using grapewood in the next one ('ill be using cork and Malaysian driftwood(IMO the coolest wood ever!) so I don't have rotting in the near future, btw i've seen no signs of rotting yet, not even soft wood) so I hope it'll be really nice. I plan on covering the entire floor with live moss and some leaf litter and also, i'll have a misting system!!! It might not be mistking though... For a few reasons.
1. This other one is going to be in my living room and the stand has to cabinets so looks is fairly important)
2. I'll only be using the Monsoon for this tank, so I don't need 30+ misting nozzles lol, only 2 will do, maybe 3.
3. I want everything to be in abut 1 large order
4. To be experimental, I will use the monsoon to see how the new units perform vs. the old leaky ones
Personally, I would go for mistking, but the main tie breaker is everything being in one large order.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Here's the pics guys, as promised!
FTS








Brom pup








Neo. Zoe, it looks a lot better in real life








Here's the purple wandering jew, compare it to when i first put it in!








Here's the pilea tiny leaf, under high lighti t's MUCH more bushy!








Closer look at grapewood at 1.5 months








My adult springs love this spot on the grapewood








Here's my FF cultures, i'm gonna see what is best. Left is repashy (started 9/29), middle is NE herp media (started 10/6), and the right is my media (started 10/10)








Here's a substrate i'll be using in the next build, I will be adding 2 gallons of cypress mulch and 2 gallons of orchid bark, and i already have 4 gallons of whats in the picture, so a total of 8 gallons of substrate. Those twigs are aspen twigs and tyhe leaves are aspen. I also added charcoal, peat moss, and hydroton.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Tank is really grown in and the wood is showing no signs of rot, only mold. Frog is healthy and happy and the plants are thriving. Home made substrate still holding up great! Lots of moss growing on the background too.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ahem, where are the pics?


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Oh yes, yes pictures are needed!

The frog is doing great but is still a little on the thin looking side, but certainly not thin or skinny, just a little underweight. Does not accept ffs when fed well, but always is out hunting (or at least most of the time) 

Here's what the tank looks like most of the time...









Here's my auratus, now about 5 months oow









Here is a mossy spot, not too much to show here as it was hard ot take pic but in real person it is really green. In my galact tank there's a lot more green though.









Fern and wood (the mold actually looks nice, still waiting to get a nice mushroom bloom though...









More wood 









and more...









Detailed FTS (it looks different than first pics as I need to move plants around as some didn't get light and started to melt, mostly the fern and pilea.









As you can see my light set up is dual 26 watt goose neck fixtures.
Hope you enjoyed, and look out for more pics on my other tank including it's first FTS!!!


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Tank looks great! Frog is a little on the thin side. Has he had his fecals checked?


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

yup, I had fecals done a while ago, nothing out of the ordinary. But if I see any more weight loss then off to the vet.


----------



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Unfortuanatly the frog had passed away a week or so ago, wasn't eating much. At least I still have my 2 other bundles of joy. Both of my vivariums are doing great, much growth and hope to see breeding from my (hopefully) pair.


----------



## Krenshaw22 (Apr 21, 2011)

Neontra said:


> Unfortuanatly the frog had passed away a week or so ago, wasn't eating much. At least I still have my 2 other bundles of joy. Both of my vivariums are doing great, much growth and hope to see breeding from my (hopefully) pair.


Sorry for the loss. I lost one of my juveniles back in the beginning but the other four are fat and healthy and I enjoy everyday I get to see them. I now have a tiny leuc to share it with.


----------

