# Springs NOT ALLOWED!



## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

From past years my family and I had a springtail infestation and I don't want that to happen again. Besides springs and fruit flies what can I feed?


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

vivlover10 said:


> From past years my family and I had a springtail infestation and I don't want that to happen again. Besides springs and fruit flies what can I feed?


suggest another hobby then cause even pinheads wont do.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

How the heck did that happen?
You could go with pin heads, but honestly fruit flies are the way to go.

John


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

You guys I didn't make this clear, I can have fruit flies I just wanted to no other foods like isopods


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## lamaster (Mar 22, 2008)

tincs and larger species will take fruit flies right after morphing but most thumbnails need springs


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

Sub adult thumbs can have malongaster too.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Adult thumbs can take Melanogaster. But, really, you'll need springs or something like that if your thumbs start breeding. I have never had springs leave their container or the viv. It's much nicer where they are than on my dry, dusty old carpet. 

Tell your mom to come talk to us!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

vivlover, springs and isos aren't just for food. They also keep your tank clean. They eat the decaying plants and frog waste. The frogs eat them. It's a perfect system.


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

Both parents against it but if I do get a pair of thumbs I will need some back up to help me purswade them.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

springtail infestation? i have my doubts. in homes, the springtails that would colonize it are eating mold (a potentially serious problem) they do not carry disease, cause property damage or bite / sting in any way , some species will attack crops at worst, and as far as i know, springtails parasitizing humans is a myth, and generally symptoms are related to some other ailment. springs are about the safest "insect" to keep IMO. they are tiny, harmless, wont cause an infestation if they escape... 

i think collembola get a bad name because people misidentify any small pest as a spring, but thats just my take on it.

perhaps show your family some evidence that they are harmless and they'll reconsider.

james


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

vivlover10 said:


> Both parents against it but if I do get a pair of thumbs I will need some back up to help me purswade them.


how old are you if you dont mind me asking? If near 18 and to the age moving out go ahead and get thumbs...if not stick to Tincs, Auratus, and Leucs as you can feed them pin heads/ fruit flies as an adult or froglet. If your parents dont like springs then I know they wont allow termites


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

You probably had a silverfish infestation. If they were bigger than 1-2mm, then they weren't springs.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I think you may have had a silverfish infestation. Here are some pictures of silverfish. They can be a nuisance.
silverfish - Google Search
Springtail infestations would be rather rare as they cannot survive unless it is very damp. If you had a prolonged infestation (more than a few days to a week), then you had some serious household problems that fueled them. Like broken, leaky pipes, or a flooded basement, rotting drywall, something like that. Under those circumstances, springtails may stick around for a while but they are causing no damage. On the contrary, they cleaned up the mold and prevented some of the nasty smell from your "broken pipes". Seriously, if you have a springtail infestation indoors, they are simply a clue that something is seriously wrong with something in your home. They simply cannot survive in a dry home environment. Please, have your parents Google *Springtail Infestation*. You will see that any infestation is due to the problems I pointed out. Springtails are everywhere! If you have problems with excessive moisture in your home, Springtails will show up whether you have them in your viv or not.
Springtails are an important part of your hobby. Before your parents forbid you to have them, ask them to please research the problem thoroughly. You can be instrumental in researching by finding appropriate sites with the search I mentioned. Be sure to tell them that you will abide by their wishes, but will they please just read the information that you have found.
Remember, in the end, you have to abide by what they decide. Please, invite your parents to read this post and research the possibility with you.
Oh, one more thing. I personally, have kept springtails in my vivs for many years. And I did have a small infestation once. NOT from any species in my Vivs, however! There was a small leak behind the drywall, in the upstairs bathroom. We discovered the leak from the tiny black springtails around the drywall. I had NO black springtails in my vivs at the time. This backs up what I said earlier. If your conditions are moist, springtails will show up anyway!
Doug


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

Guys thanks but no luck won't even consider them! Is there anything else that I can feed them.


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

You could breed crickets, newly hatched I swear they are the size of dust.

However (as a mother myself), if your parents don't want springtails, I can't believe they would let you breed crickets.

I keep all my springtails in tightly sealed gladware, I've never had any escapees. I think of springtails as the most innocuous insect that I raise. No smell, no mess, no "wild ranging" feeders.

Tell your mother I said springs are your friend with vivs!

Otherwise, stick to larger species. Actually, if you go with something like imitators, they could probably eat ff's when they first come out of the water. They seem to have huge mouths. I've found my SI's can tackle just about anything too.

Good luck,
Deb


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

Thanks Deb I think I will just culture some malongaster fruit flies and see how it goes and once out of the house bam, I will have a whole room of tanks full of different PDF spieces.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

vivlover10 said:


> Guys thanks but no luck won't even consider them! Is there anything else that I can feed them.


No offense but your parents are retarded if they won't let you culture springs for fear of an infestation. They just don't do that. Do they refuse to listen to reason?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Tell your mom that springs are tiny and cute. Really. I have fun with my cultures and I'm not a girl that particularly liked bugs before getting into dart frogs. I have 16 shoebox sized cultures (boxes are not sealed) of springtails and NO wild roaming packs of bugs. 

Crickets stink, imo. Really. As in smell bad, peeew. 

And ask her what to do with the frog poo if no springtails, 

eta: As Doug pointed out, springs won't leave their containers to find places in your house to infest. Too much dry area to travel. They want to stay nice and moist in your culture or your tank. If your house gets springs, they will be coming in from the soil below your home, up through something that is leaking water and damp.


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## botanyboy03 (Apr 18, 2009)

frogface said:


> Tell your mom that springs are tiny and cute. Really. I have fun with my cultures and I'm not a girl that particularly liked bugs before getting into dart frogs. I have 16 shoebox sized cultures (boxes are not sealed) of springtails and NO wild roaming packs of bugs.
> 
> Crickets stink, imo. Really. As in smell bad, peeew.
> 
> ...


Do you put lids over your cultures, or are they completely open to the air?


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

Fleshfromthebone: they won't listen to any thing I say about springs or that it might not be them who infested. I just wish for once I could get into a hobby such as darts or something with my mom or dad. all I want for Christmas is my first darts but that's probably not going to happen.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

They have lids, but they aren't tight fitting. They're cheap containers from the Dollar Tree.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

vivlover10 said:


> Fleshfromthebone: they won't listen to any thing I say about springs or that it might not be them who infested. I just wish for once I could get into a hobby such as darts or something with my mom or dad. all I want for Christmas is my first darts but that's probably not going to happen.


That really makes me sad. 

If they don't come around to the springs, maybe think about Leucs again. I think they can feed on melanogasters as froglets.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

vivlover10 said:


> Fleshfromthebone: they won't listen to any thing I say about springs or that it might not be them who infested. I just wish for once I could get into a hobby such as darts or something with my mom or dad. all I want for Christmas is my first darts but that's probably not going to happen.


You know what my young friend, for some reason the time right now just isn`t right.
Trust me on this one.. soon enough it will be.
You seem like a really nice kid.

John


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

vivlover10 said:


> Fleshfromthebone: they won't listen to any thing I say about springs or that it might not be them who infested. I just wish for once I could get into a hobby such as darts or something with my mom or dad. all I want for Christmas is my first darts but that's probably not going to happen.


Dude that's a drag and a half, sorry to hear it. You know.... They don't have to know about them. You can culture those things just about anywhere in a little box with some charcoal. How would they know they are springs anyway? Say they're tiny wasps or something.

I should add I'm not a role model hahahaha.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

fleshfrombone said:


> Dude that's a drag and a half, sorry to hear it. You know.... They don't have to know about them. You can culture those things just about anywhere in a little box with some charcoal. How would they know they are springs anyway? Say they're tiny wasps or something.
> 
> I should add I'm not a role model hahahaha.


Hah! Don't listen to fleshfrombone. 

Don't listen to botanyboy03 either.


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## botanyboy03 (Apr 18, 2009)

I didn't tell my mom about the 3 H azureiventris I had shipped to me at work, until I had had them for over a month. I feel it is better to ask forgiveness than permission sometimes. Maybe get some cultures and seed the tanks, and never tell them?

I'm probably not a good role model either.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Isopods, also known as woodlice. As many types as possible. The babies are as small as springtails. Also, I have raised many nominant Imitator and Intermedius Imitator with only fruit flies. The wingless ffs are smaller than winged types. You can also make a fruit fly smaller by overcrowding the culture (spike it with lots of flies). Of course this will make for lots of flies all at once and the culture will burn out quicker. Someone recently posted success making smaller flies by mixing the ff media from Josh's frogs with cold water instead of hot.
Doug


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

> Isopods, also known as woodlice.


Good idea! They don't try to get out of their containers either.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Vivlover, I'm a little shocked at people telling you to disregard what your parents say. In our conversations, I get the feeling you're not that kind of kid. Stick to your ethics and do the right thing. 
Let me assure you that you CAN keep thumbnails without springtails. You can even raise the babies without springtails. 
Doug


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## frogboy (Sep 25, 2010)

Vivlover, Me and my dad (Pumilo) will offer you a FREE starter culture of Dwarf white isopods if you just cover shipping and the cost of a heat pad (both of them should be less than $10 dollars).


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

fleshfrombone said:


> I should add I'm not a role model hahahaha.


this made me laugh Ryan haha goes without saying


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> Isopods, also known as woodlice.


*Don't* call them woodlice! If they don't like the idea of springtails, I guarantee you woodlice would not go over. Call them rollie pollies, same thing and sounds much cuter 

Deb

But I agree, it doesn't sound like darts are in your future this Christmas. I would say keep doing your reseach so your parents can see how serious and committed you are about frogs. You'll win them over in the end. Maybe enlist a grandparent to be on your side?

Deb


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

JeremyHuff said:


> *You probably had a silverfish infestation*. If they were bigger than 1-2mm, then they weren't springs.


That's exactly what I thought when I read the title... if you haven't, you should ask your parents if it was silverfish and not springs... silverfish infestations do happen, but I have never once heard of a springtail infestation. Totally different animals, your parents are probably confusilated.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I say buy some cultures of springtails, and tell your parents that it is a special kind of orchid charcoal. Get them from a member off here, and they wont even lable them as springtails for you. Try using big words and smart sounding stuff to confuse your parents. Then bump a culture into your substrate (the extra special charcoal additive to make your plants grow uber awesome), and keep one going under your bed or something. They dont need light, or even air circulation to flourish, so it shouldnt be tough to hide and maintain.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

salix said:


> *Don't* call them woodlice! If they don't like the idea of springtails, I guarantee you woodlice would not go over. Call them rollie pollies, same thing and sounds much cuter


Excellent point Deb! Thanks for pointing that out. I still say that Imitators, and also the Todd Kelly Red Amazonicus do NOT need to have springtails. I have morphed out...gotta be well over a hundred without any springtails OR isopods. Just making sure the tads got well fed with plenty of water changes will help to morph them out big. Then you start them on smaller, runted, wingless melonos. So I don't see why he cannot proceed with his plan for frogs this Christmas. Besides, anybody selling frogs that are such juvies that they can't take melonos yet is somebody you shouldn't be supporting.
Doug


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## JJhuang (Feb 5, 2010)

vivlover10 said:


> Guys thanks but no luck won't even consider them! Is there anything else that I can feed them.


You can go with bean beatles. Good source of nutrition and if they do get out they will die in 12 days or something.


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

frogboy said:


> Vivlover, Me and my dad (Pumilo) will offer you a FREE starter culture of Dwarf white isopods if you just cover shipping and the cost of a heat pad (both of them should be less than $10 dollars).


Ill take some if you have them available still. 

I have been wanting to put isos in my tank but I can't find any outside since it has gotten cold. PM me if can send me some please.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> Ill take some if you have them available still.
> 
> I have been wanting to put isos in my tank but I can't find any outside since it has gotten cold. PM me if can send me some please.


The ones you find outside are a different subspecies than used in the hobby and will not breed fast enough to be of any use. We just received our culture and we have offered some to Vivlover10 due to his extenuating circumstances as posted in this thread. I do have 10 vivs to get them established in first but we are more than willing to spread the love *after* we get our own vivs established. You are more than willing to contact us in about 6 months to see how our production is going. We will send out some free cultures as a thank you to the gentleman who sent ours out free. We will, of course, ask for shipping to be paid.
Doug


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

To the OP, listen to your parents and like others have said, you don't need springs if your parents won't allow them even after a rational-reasoned conversation.



Pumilo said:


> We discovered the leak from the tiny black springtails around the drywall. I had NO black springtails in my vivs at the time. This backs up what I said earlier. If your conditions are moist, springtails will show up anyway!
> Doug


Did you start a culture from these guys?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Chris Miller said:


> To the OP, listen to your parents and like others have said, you don't need springs if your parents won't allow them even after a rational-reasoned conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you start a culture from these guys?


Chris, I tried to but it didn't take. I was using very wet sphagnum, "old school" methods. I later read that many of the black springs seem to need a somewhat drier media but by then they were gone. Thanks for chiming in on this Chris. No one can deny that you know thumbs! Springtails and nice and yes, a valuable tool...but NOT necessary for thumbnails.
Vivlover10, please click on Chris's website linked under his name. You can see he is keeping one of the largest assortments of thumbnails under one roof! The man KNOWS thumbnails and he also says that you don't need springs.
Doug


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

Pumilo and Chris thanks for all the help. I am making a 18x18x24 Zoo-med for a pair right after Christmas. I love the thumbs cute little bodies and they are brightly colored. In my opinion they have a better looking body shape than the larger frogs. I am posting a thread around the holidays of the viv.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Yeah, take up the offer for isopods and seed the viv. You should be all set. If your frogs breed, let the parents raise the tads. The froglets will morph out larger. Also, learn how to produce stunted flies with less media and a bit of vinegar.


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## frogboy (Sep 25, 2010)

Hey Vivlover, we weren't joking about the isopods. Just give us a few days notice so we can get a heat pad. We have insulated boxes so that they can last longer in this weather. We've shipped hundreds of corals in the winter and were not afraid of the cold. So do your homework and read on how to culture isopods.  My dad says you should culture them until you have twice as many, then seed with half of the isopods and keep culturing the other half.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

It is IMPOSSIBLE for springtails to live....let alone infest.....a normal home.

Do a bunch o' interweb research....print out a lot of papers / cut n' paste on springtails and that presentation should be enough to convince them.

Also....try to get mom and dad to take you over to Jeffr (dendroboard member from Long Island) and to see his frog room....I believe he offered you an open invitation.

Those two things should lock your parents into allowing you to get what you need unless your parents are overly strict or unreasonable.

In that case....you only have, what? 3,4,6 or so years and then you're outa the house and on your own and then you can have all the frogs you want.

Don't worry either....the time will go quicker than you think.


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## goatdude (Apr 24, 2009)

easy thing to do is do your research on springtales. in the spring(yes spring) present that info to your dad. tell him you don't have to keep them in the house.(garage with tight lid) also tell him it's a trial and if he doesn't like them you can throw them out. since someone is giving you them for the price of shipping you should beable to pay for it. make it look like you are doing all the work and they will be outside and not in a viv or anything. later once they start growing slowly convince your dad to put them in the viv. you will have months to comvince them before you have to move them inside. worse case is he says he doesn't like the looks of them after the produce.

on another subject.. why not get a bigger frog. one that doesn't persay need springtales. thumbs aren't really a starter frog.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

goatdude said:


> easy thing to do is do your research on springtales. in the spring(yes spring) present that info to your dad. tell him you don't have to keep them in the house.(garage with tight lid) also tell him it's a trial and if he doesn't like them you can throw them out. since someone is giving you them for the price of shipping you should beable to pay for it. make it look like you are doing all the work and they will be outside and not in a viv or anything. later once they start growing slowly convince your dad to put them in the viv. you will have months to comvince them before you have to move them inside. worse case is he says he doesn't like the looks of them after the produce.
> 
> on another subject.. why not get a bigger frog. one that doesn't persay need springtales. thumbs aren't really a starter frog.


Misunderstanding, goatdude. Frogboy is offering him Isopods, like a roly-poly bug. The adults will generally be left alone by thumbnails. The babies will be as small as a springtail and more nutritious. His parents have not said no to isopods so that is a viable alternative. 
Vivlover has been researching for some time now and I think he'll do fine with thumbnails.
Doug


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

Phil Suma I am going over Megans today to see here collection to see her varaderos, FG vents of that's what I think they are and some leucs
Pumilo I will have to get back to you right now mom is thinking hopefuly this will make her say "What that's what they look like, I want some." then I will be the happiest little boy in the world.


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## Freeradical53 (Jan 25, 2008)

Moms have lots of motivation for saying no to things that have nothing to do with the thing they are saying no to. In this case perhaps starting projects and not finishing them....expecting Mom to feed and take care of pets if they are forgotten...or culturing FF and watching the yukky maggots in a cup that used to hold potato salad and now culturing bugs that are invisible!!! Enough!! Good Luck and I hope you get the darts and the the springs...


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## Sigaw (Apr 3, 2010)

How bout roaches? Symploce pallens in particular.
When they hatch they are tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny!

They climb glass though.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sigaw said:


> How bout roaches? Symploce pallens in particular.
> When they hatch they are tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny!
> 
> They climb glass though.


That's a great idea!! Suggest roaches as an alternative. See how fast the say, "Noo! That's all right...let's just get the springtails!"
Doug


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