# 1 frog dying



## paulhar88 (Oct 8, 2020)

Hi guys,

Hoping for a bit of help/reassurance. So about 6 weeks ago I set up a 90x55x30 exo terra viv - drainage layer, membrane, substrate, sphagnum moss around the edges and then leaf litter on top.

About 2 weeks ago I added 4 Azureus to the vivarium. They've seemed to be doing fine, then the last few days one has been acting strangely and then today has collapsed (I presume dead, but I'm trying to encourage it back to life in a separate tub). Now comparing all 4, this one was really skinny so it may be due to starvation.

Now the other 3 seem to be doing OK, and strangely seem to be a lot more active today since I've removed the 4th one. Does this sound like bullying has caused this?

Tank is kept 80-90% humid, around 23c. They have a natural and uv light in the tank and I dust their fruit flies 2x per week.


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

Pictures of the viv and frog(s) would help. Do you mean you feed and dust the flies 2 times a week or do you feed more than twice a week, but only dust them the 2 times per week? What supplements are you dusting with? How old are the frogs?

If only feeding twice a week, that's not very often. Especially if these are froglets.


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## paulhar88 (Oct 8, 2020)

Sorry for not being clear. 

I add flies to the Viv 5x per week, dusting them 2x per week. There's also some springtails and pinhead crickets in there. I add RepPlus Bugrub in small amounts for the janitor insects (there's also isopods in there). I dust the flies with Exo Terra Multivitamin and Exo Terra Calcium + D3. Breeder said the frogs were adult.


This is 2 of the healthy frogs about 10 days ago - they've filled out even more since then, but they're hiding right now. 









This is the dead frog.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

What has this frog's appetite been like over the course of the last couple weeks?


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## paulhar88 (Oct 8, 2020)

All 4 have generally been eating well but then the last week or so I noticed that the flies I was putting near this frog didn't seem to be dwindling in number.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

"I add flies to the Viv 5x per week, dusting them 2x per week. "

They should be dusted every time you feed, and your supplement regimen should really have Repashy calcium + D3 as the foundation. Still, given that you've had these frogs such a short time, that's probably not long enough for your supplement habits to have led to this. If it were me, I would be looking into getting them tested for intestinal parasites.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

There is a lot wrong here at first look, 

I sugguest you get rid of the UV lamp RIGHT NOW!!

You should dust your flies with Repashy CAL+ every feed and 1x a month VITA+. Lose the vitamines you are given now.

I don't like the exces moss aswell, humidity should be 65-85% instead of 80-90, I recommend also get rid of the waterfall. 
Dartfrogs don't need a waterfeature, this could even be part of the problem.

The frogs look adult(ish), but they seem to be in horrible shape. 

Please act as fast as possible, or you will lose the other frogs in no time.

Also DONT take them to a vet, this will simply cause more stress. 
Your setup is just simply not suited for keeping dartfrogs. Look in to correct setups asap.

I wish you best of luck

.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

What exactly do you mean by UV lamp? What brand, index (2.O, 5.0, etc) 
Curious. As I have not observed ill effects with set up strategies that included full spectrum lighting and deep cover. Both which are abundantly available in nature.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Not "recommending it" just saying it has been done and the darts and mantellas were permanent displays, 6 to 8 years mid 2000 before placing them with a friend, frogger as we needed to space to expand a tetra retail area. As one example.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

If that pic is from 4 days after you got the frogs, you got them in very bad shape. I agree that a fecal test would be beneficial, though only if you have access to a qualified exotics vet (a dog and cat vet would, as has been noted, do more harm than good).

Since UVB is not at all necessary for adult frogs when supplementing D3, removing it isn't a bad idea. Supplying UVB can be beneficial, but misused/overused can be detrimental.

I also agree that Repashy Calcium Plus is a more reliable supplement.


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## paulhar88 (Oct 8, 2020)

Thank you for all your help. I've ordered the supplements and will remove the UVB and excess moisture.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Talking about em spectrum as though the ultraviolet range is something separate is the thing I find unuseful.
Panic reactions without inquiry are not useful. 
I read the studies and it was clear that the subjects had refined wavelength perception. They did not conclude that darts drop dead with daylight contact.

I do actually think that whole daylight wavelength lighting can be a stressor and promote hypervigilance.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

However -- I think the hyperbole is absolute sophistry. It makes sense that tads in small water feature and small diurnal bodies evolve acutely to solar effects of dessication and over exposure.

I have raised many froglets over decades with UVB as part of their lighting. And so did fellow herpetologists I have known., and one in particular who was by all standards, not only a professor of Biology but, a Rocket Scientist. 

Photobiology is a fascinating science. Please research before appying ideological sunscreen in your eyes,


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Kmc said:


> However -- I think the hyperbole is absolute sophistry. It makes sense that tads in small water feature and small diurnal bodies evolve acutely to solar effects of dessication and over exposure.
> 
> I have raised many froglets over decades with UVB as part of their lighting. And so did fellow herpetologists I have known., and one in particular who was by all standards, not only a professor of Biology but, a Rocket Scientist.
> 
> Photobiology is a fascinating science. Please research before appying ideological sunscreen in your eyes,


Kmc, if you want people to take your assertion that UV is a good thing seriously, I think you need to provide some literature. Many of us have seen the paper that says that pumilio will abandon calling locations in the presence of UV (read the paper, folks - don't rely on my summation). If you and a few of your friends have had good success using UV, that's great, but there is what I perceive to be a much larger majority of us that have also had success without using UV. If you want to change that, I think you need to bring more to the table than "it has worked for me and some of my friends." Messing around with UV, I think, can fall into a category of potential harm to animals if it's done incorrectly, so I would not want to be experimenting with my own animals to figure out how to fine-tune amounts and durations. This is also not a realm where I would prefer to go with anecdotal evidence. That's where the literature might be helpful. Also, these are probably derails of a couple of different threads. I suggest you make a thread to discuss this. I have not done much research at all on this topic, but I know some others have. Let's get the papers out there and let people judge for themselves. I would love to have a discussion on this subject and am willing to be swayed, but let's get it out in the open and do it right. This topic deserves it's day in the sun (see what I did there?). That's just my $0.02, anyway.

Mark


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I replied. But it seems to have disappeared.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Kmc said:


> I replied. But it seems to have disappeared.





Kmc said:


> I replied. But it seems to have disappeared.





Kmc said:


> I replied. But it seems to have disappeared.





Kmc said:


> I replied. But it seems to have disappeared.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

"If you want people to take that: UVB is a "good thing" I think you should provide some li

There are No Grants - no "HerpetoculturStudies" on record .


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kmc said:


> "If you want people to take that: UVB is a "good thing" I think you should provide some li
> 
> There are No Grants - no "HerpetoculturStudies" on record .


All right, Kmc, we get your point. This thread isn't about UVB, it is about answering the OP's question, so let's keep it on track.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Thre isnNT


Socratic Monologue said:


> All right, Kmc, we get your point. This thread isn't about UVB, it is about answering the OP's question, so let's keep it on track.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Yes, and lets not create a Skinny Frog Mythology of Burned Skin and Ultraviolet Radiation where it doesnt exist.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

For me that was not reason number 1 in recommending to get rif of the UV lamp asap. 

Although I do believe in what you call 'mythology' and that would be defenitly reason number 2 why I'd personly remove the lamp.. But as SM already said, that's a different topic.

My #1 reason in getting rid of the UV lamp is that a UV lamp, is just not relyable.. We don't know how old it is to begin with. 
I noticed more than person having issues with their UV lamps over the years, especialy from the Exo Terra or Zoomed brand. Those lamps seems to lose their initial benefenits very fast over a short period of time and then radiate a lot of UVc which could potentialy be very harmfull! 

Getting rid of everything that could potentialy be harmfull is the only good advice imo.. Better safe than sorry..


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

No that's not true. The 'older' get the more deprecated the uvb value becomes.

The uvc concerns had to do with some defective bulbs. Nothing to do with duration of use.

Its important to not construct ideological mythologies with things you have never worked with and know nothing about.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

This is important. Its Importnt not to "blame" emaciated frogs to a uvb tube on top of the screens of a viv that if measured would read out to barely crepuscular read. Barely.

.."If you think "uvb is good" uh.. no hon thats not it. Exactly why I dont want
to discuss it.

Hint: Im a behavioral motived keeper. 

My outcomes have been outstanding. No proof. No literature. but my confidence hasnt materialized out of thin air.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

For me this topic is realy simple.

There is a dead frog and 2 other frogs that are in an afwull shape and need ASAP help.
The best thing to do is remove EVERYTHING asap that could be possible hazard to the frogs. This could be : substrate, waterfeatures, lighting, supplementation..
The next step it to replace it with the correct items so the frogs can start to recover.

There is no reason what so ever NOT to remove the UV lamp asap when there are so many alarming issues here. Unless you are 100% sure this is not the source, which is impossible to find out at this urgency of risk!
If by any chance this UV lamp would be defect or worn out and produce UVC, it now is removed and done harming the frogs..

That's it. No right fighting over wheter UV would be beneficial or not, just helping by recommending to remove all possible hazards.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Well said, @Tijl.

@paulhar88, how are your frogs doing? Any change/improvement?


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## paulhar88 (Oct 8, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Well said, @Tijl.
> 
> @paulhar88, how are your frogs doing? Any change/improvement?


Hey,

So since I removed the dead frog the other 3 seem to have been a lot more active.

They're all looking healthy and a lot fatter than the one that died.

UV light is off, humidity is being kept between 70-80% and I've been giving them repashy dusted flies.

Fingers crossed it may have just been one poorly frog 🤞


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

You have to understand your other frogs do not look anywhere near healthy on the photo's. This was not a 'one poor frog in the bunch' thing, but a very incorrect enclosure/feeding issue.. 

So keep a good eye on them maintaining to gain weight, I would be surprised if your frogs would already be recovered. It may be that a lot of damage already has been done.


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## Paskui (May 23, 2020)

And upload new pics of the frogs in order to check evolution please


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## paulhar88 (Oct 8, 2020)

Here is a photo of one of them from today.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Looks like a young female doing ok. 

I'd stille remove the spagmos if I were you, this is very difficult to make it maintain the correct moisture whitout oversaturating it.


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## paulhar88 (Oct 8, 2020)

Tijl said:


> Looks like a young female doing ok.
> 
> I'd stille remove the spagmos if I were you, this is very difficult to make it maintain the correct moisture whitout oversaturating it.


I have removed almost all of it. There's this bit she's sat on then a bit in the opposite corner.

Humidity is averaging about 75% now.

I'll try to get photos of the other 2, but they are very similar in terms of how filled out they look.


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## Paskui (May 23, 2020)

It looks in better shape right now...


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Compared to the early photos, those frogs look great. Good work! 

You were apparently sold some very ill-cared for frogs. Avoiding giving any more money to that vendor in the future will be good for frogs, and good for the hobby.


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## paulhar88 (Oct 8, 2020)

Hi guys, thought I'd update you with a few pics of the 3 remaining frogs.


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## Paskui (May 23, 2020)

Everything’s ok by now?


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