# Shipping frogs in their tank...



## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

This is just out of curiosity....

I assume shipping a frog in a tank would be and dangerous because of mishandling reasons....but, if you were to ship one within its tank, and it were handled carefully, and the temps remained proper....would the tank environment decrease stress on the frog enough to allow for a longer shipping period?

I know the weight would still make it expensive....

Im just thinking in text here.....

Tommy


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Broken glass....nuff said. Remember fragile doesn't mean anything to package handlers


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

haha.. im sayin if the shipping process wasnt an issue...health wise for the frogs, would it be safe?

I wouldnt trust any co. with a tank, but im sure enough foam could protect the glass fairly well.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Even if the tank walls were well insulated, the interior decor(substrate, plants, etc) would tumble and toss all over, including over the frogs. I would say abandon this idea unless you were the handler.

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Broken glass, falling wood, rocks, and cork bark. Landslides burying frogs alive. OUTRAGEOUS shipping price. It can cost a hundred plus bucks to ship a 4 pound, 12" box overnight, I hate to think what shipping my heavy 2' x 2' x 2' pumilio viv would cost!
If you shake a 2 or 4 oz deli cup, the frog only moves a couple inches, never reaching a terminal velocity. Put him in a tank and shake it just as hard and you are going to be breaking some bones.
It would take me 20 times the amount of Phase 22 packs to temperature control an entire viv than it does to control a small box. In the winter that can be $25 or $30 worth of phase 22 packs. So to ship your viv we are talking about something like $600 worth of phase paks.
Sorry, but I can think of a lot of reasons this would never work but am having trouble coming up with a single reason it would be worth looking into.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

As Pumilo has stated, what would be the benefit of shipping the entire system? 

If you had sold it as an entire set up, it should have been pick up or delivery only. There is no way to ship it.

JBear


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Why everyone is missing my point...Completely!  

Health wise....would frogs being enclosed in their tank for a few days stress them out to an unhealthy level?...would there be sufficient oxygen?

I've already stated mishandling of the tank as not being an issue...leave that out.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

For example...Say I box a tank with frogs and give it to someone I work with to bring with them on a 3-day business road trip. And I tell them to keep it in the cab with them when they're driving, and just bring it in the hotel room when they're not driving. Then meet this guy when you get this place and give him the box....

or...Or if you packaged them and placed them in a temp controlled moving truck for a few days.

Could being closed in a box in their own tank for a couple of days damage the frogs well being some how? <----Still my question


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jdooley195 said:


> For example...Say I box a tank with frogs and give it to someone I work with to bring with them on a 3-day business road trip. And I tell them to keep it in the cab with them when they're driving, and just bring it in the hotel room when they're not driving. Then meet this guy when you get this place and give him the box....
> 
> Could being closed in a box in their own tank for a couple of days damage the frogs well being some how?


If the box was handled very carefully, and all the excess water is drained I would see that as an option for transporting an entire system. However, I would look to use something more shock absorbant like styrofoam coolers rather than a thin box, or even better a double layer of both. 

Might I add this whole plan just reeks of shady, lmaolmao!

Bets of luck!

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Sorry, forgot to metion the temp stability when using styrofoam coolers.

JBear


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

"Reeks of shady?"

I dont know if I find that more offensive than you ignorantly doubting my terribilis struck my finger or not, but I can do without your comments now. Thank you.

Again, this is out of curiosity and have no deals planned.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jdooley195 said:


> For example...Say I box a tank with frogs and give it to someone I work with to bring with them on a 3-day business road trip. And I tell them to keep it in the cab with them when they're driving, and just bring it in the hotel room when they're not driving. Then meet this guy when you get this place and give him the box....
> 
> or...Or if you packaged them and placed them in a temp controlled moving truck for a few days.
> 
> *Could being closed in a box in their own tank for a couple of days damage the frogs well being some how? <----Still my question*


My frogs all live in a closed system. A few days without me opening the top is risky. As was pointed out to me long ago, plants start to respire gases at night and under very low light levels. Without a proper exchange, one could easily suffocate a group based on lack of fresh air flow. A few days without a bit of fresh air may be a taxing thing when the frogs are received. Something to consider...

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jdooley195 said:


> "Reeks of shady?"
> 
> I dont know if I find that more offensive than you ignorantly doubting my terribilis struck my finger or not, but I can do without your comments now. Thank you.
> 
> Again, this is out of curiosity and have no deals planned.


I mean no harm, truly. I apologize if I have upset you.

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jdooley195 said:


> For example...Say *I box a tank with frogs *and *give it to someone I work with to bring with them *on a 3-day business road trip. And I tell them to keep it in the cab with them when they're driving, and just bring it in the hotel room when they're not driving. *Then meet this guy when you get this place and give him the box*....
> 
> or...Or if you packaged them and placed them in a temp controlled moving truck for a few days.
> 
> Could being closed in a box in their own tank for a couple of days damage the frogs well being some how? <----Still my question


Boldface was what I meant by shady. My bad. I didn't think you would take offense to me poking some fun at your ambiguity. Like I said, I meant no harm. 

All my best!

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jdooley195 said:


> Why everyone is missing my point...Completely!





jdooley195 said:


> For example...Say I box a tank with frogs and give it to someone I work with to bring with them on a 3-day business road trip. And I tell them to keep it in the cab with them when they're driving, and just bring it in the hotel room when they're not driving. Then meet this guy when you get this place and give him the box....
> 
> or...Or if you packaged them and placed them in a temp controlled moving truck for a few days.
> 
> Could being closed in a box in their own tank for a couple of days damage the frogs well being some how? <----Still my question


Why are you missing the point? Completely! How will putting the tank in a cab keep a chunk of wood from crushing your frogs? Why is moving a viv back and forth from the cab of a truck into a motel room several times a good idea? They are safer in a small deli cup, inside of a well packed box, period. If you don't want the replies and have already made up your mind, I really don't see why you are asking.
In your scenario, if the truck hits a big pothole, or gets in a minor accident, or the box gets dropped, the frogs could die. In my scenario, they will be just fine.
You're saying, what if none of this applies, but it does. If we are just making stuff up and playacting impossible scenarios, then why not just have Scotty beam them over?


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

jdooley195 said:


> Could being closed in a box in their own tank for a couple of days (in a truck) damage the frogs well being some how? <----Still my question


Yes. Final answer.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

So, basically ....nobody will answer my questions about oxygen levels and stress factors? Wow! Hope u guys had fun gangin up on me about something I made clear I was aware of in the first post.

Good job...sure showed me


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## Lifeguard (Jun 30, 2011)

I would say no.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

I have successfully transported vivs intact with the animals in them. A little over a year ago we moved (only 25 miles) and I didn't want to break down all my vivs for the move. I drained all the water out of the FBs and took out anything really heavy. I strapped all the vivs in place and threw blankets over them. I then proceeded to drive super slowly and carefully haha. Looking back it probably wasn't the best choice, but luckily nothing went wrong. 
Now to address your core question...I don't think stress or depletion of oxygen would be anything to worry about for a couple of days. If the vivs are well planned then there should be plenty of hides so stress shouldn't be an issue, plus the sides would be blocked which would eliminate visual stressors. As long as there is a little ventilation the frogs be ok, though it would be best to have a way to access the viv and introduce fresh air.
So I think the answer to your hypothetical question is that it could be done...but it really wouldn't be worth the risk of harm or the expense.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Nobody is ganging up on you. We are trying to answer as best as we can. It hard to simply ignore all the laws of the universe. It is either a real question, that we answered, or it's not. I, for one, answered it as if it were a real question. That includes taking the real world into account.


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## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

jdooley195 said:


> So, basically ....nobody will answer my questions about oxygen levels and stress factors? Wow! Hope u guys had fun gangin up on me about something I made clear I was aware of in the first post.
> 
> Good job...sure showed me


I'm sorry but you have asked a pretty confusing question. People have tried to answer it for you but it seems like you are not listening. Yes you could transport them for three days in a cab and into a hotel room if all conditions are perfect (i.e. the tank is not banged around or shaken too much). As for oxygen levels, I don't see how it would be a problem. Many of my tanks are fully glass tops with no air exchange. Yes I open the lids about once a day. But there have been times in which I have gone a day or two without opening the lids and my frogs have been fine. Yes it would be very stressfull in my opinion. 

I hope this answers your question. Like I said, if you want an answer to a question, don't throw people through these crazy hypothetical situations. If you are going to ship or transport, put the frogs in deli cups and carry them in a cooler.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

jdooley195 said:


> haha.. im sayin if the shipping process wasnt an issue...health wise for the frogs, would it be safe?
> 
> I wouldnt trust any co. with a tank, but im sure enough foam could protect the glass fairly well.


In this post you say that the shipping process isn't an issue, then you postulate on a way to package the tank to protect it from the shipping process. This is why people are having difficulty formulating an answer to your satisfaction.

In all fairness, I've traveled, moved, etc, with frogs in tanks for distances of 300 miles or more, with no visible ill-effects on the animals. They were established enclosures with heavy rooting in place, which probably helped keep the substrate and decorations from shifting.

Back on topic, since we're just thinking in text here, I would suggest using a stasis chamber large enough to enclose the entire room that the frogs are in, then simply loading the whole thing on a 18' flatbed.


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

Stasis Chambers are bulky, have O'Obrian teleport that bad boy...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ckays said:


> Stasis Chambers are bulky, have O'Obrian teleport that bad boy...


O'brian sucks! Old School Trek rules!


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

ckays said:


> Stasis Chambers are bulky, have O'Obrian teleport that bad boy...


O'Obrien only allows O'ophaga in the transport room...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You guys have totally ruined my Trek reference with your Wanna-Be, Non-Trek garbage!


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> O'brian sucks! Old School Trek rules!


Ouch Doug, that really hurts my feelings.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Field...Thanks for answering my questions and adding your personal experience.

Redhead...Thanks, you did answer my question. Though, up until fields response, no one addressed my question and was stuck on tank damage for some reason. 

Next time I'll be more direct and say, "If I put my frog's tank in a box, how long will it take them to suffocate or die from stress?

Because apparently saying, "....would frogs being enclosed in their tank for a few days stress them out to an unhealthy level?...would there be sufficient oxygen?" is an ambiguous, fuzzy, and a distracting question.

Dane...Thanks for the personal experience. But I dont see why reponding to a reply about broken glass (something I wasnt asking about), would prevent people from answering a question about a tank environment decreasing stress on a frog. (Oh, and Urge is way better than Back Abbey, check it out!)

I might have to move out of state for work, and was trying to figure out if it would be less stressful to not have them in a deli cup for three days. And I may not personally be able to bring them all up, so someone else might have to drive some of them up. If I move.

Sorry for the BS, I asked a mod to close this quite a while ago. But, if your not going to answer my question or share personal experience, and just say obvious things that point the thread in the wrong direction, then dont reply!


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

jdooley195 said:


> I might have to move out of state for work, and was trying to figure out if it would be less stressful to not have them in a deli cup for three days. And I may not personally be able to bring them all up, so someone else might have to drive some of them up. If I move.


You probably would have had much better luck if you posted this as your question in the begining as opposed to a "hypothetical" situation that ignores a lot of outside factors that could come into play.

If that was the reason for asking the question, I don't see why you wouldn't want to hear about all the posibilities for problems to arise...


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

jdooley195 said:


> Next time I'll be more direct and say, "If I put my frog's tank in a box, how long will it take them to suffocate or die from stress?


Actually, you could have just said this in the first place...



jdooley195 said:


> I might have to move out of state for work, and was trying to figure out if it would be less stressful to not have them in a deli cup for three days. And I may not personally be able to bring them all up, so someone else might have to drive some of them up. If I move.


In any case, have you considered opting for a middle ground and using small shoebox containers. That is what I would do as moving a single cooler full of shoeboxes would be both easier on you, less risky than having the frogs in their tanks, and neither you nor the frogs will be stressing over the deli cups. Good luck with your move.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

randommind said:


> Actually, you could have just said this in the first place...
> 
> 
> 
> In any case, have you considered opting for a middle ground and using small shoebox containers. That is what I would do as moving a single cooler full of shoeboxes would be both easier on you, less risky than having the frogs in their tanks, and neither you nor the frogs will be stressing over the deli cups. Good luck with your move.


I agree, shoeboxes is what I would do. Set them up with some sphagnum and toss a live cutting of some Pothos or something in there and you could keep them that way for weeks if you had to. Make sure you got something with a snug fitting lid. I would put some air holes at the top, and also some near the bottom, just above the substrate.

edit: You might want to toss in some leaf litter for cover, too.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

jdooley195 said:


> Next time I'll be more direct and say, "If I put my frog's tank in a box, how long will it take them to suffocate or die from stress?
> 
> Because apparently saying, "....would frogs being enclosed in their tank for a few days stress them out to an unhealthy level?...would there be sufficient oxygen?" is an ambiguous, fuzzy, and a distracting question.


The problem is that nobody can accurately answer this question... it depends on too many factors, such as tank size, volume, number of plants and what kind, how many frogs, etc. 
I doubt your frogs will suffocate if you have them in a tank for a couple of days. When the power goes out/ lights don't work, some of my tanks go without light for days, without much ventilation at all, and the frogs are fine.
That said, I do not see any benefit to leaving them in the tanks. Like many have said, I still think there would be considerable risk from objects falling on the frogs, even if you are driving them. They will be stressed and will hide either way, so I don't see why it helps being in a place they know vs. don't know. I would recommend small shipping containers or lightweight, plastic shoeboxes with damp moss and some leaves, probably the plastic shoeboxes if it will be more than a day or two to give them more room.
Hope that helps,
Bryan


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jdooley195 said:


> ..."Next time I'll be more direct and say, "If I put my frog's tank in a box, how long will it take them to suffocate or die from stress?
> 
> Because apparently saying, "....would frogs being enclosed in their tank for a few days stress them out to an unhealthy level?...would there be sufficient oxygen?" is an ambiguous, fuzzy, and a distracting question."...


I had answered you clearly and honestly in post 12 about closed environments. Please don't act as if you were attacked. We were all trying to help. I already apologized for poking fun, it was honestly not meant to be in any way hurtful. Like I said before, all my best.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/692554-post12.html

JBear


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Freaky...I dont see why an explanation would trigger a better answer...the same question is applied. And the only reason the hypothetical came about was nobody was addressing what I was asking about and I didnt want to be personal.

Random...my first post is asking about the stress impact on enclosed frogs....

Ive thought about smaller boxes but was afraid of all the additional room it would take up.

Thanks for the helpful replies.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jdooley195 said:


> *I dont see why an explanation would trigger a better answer...the same question is applied.* And the only reason the hypothetical came about was nobody was addressing what I was asking about and I didnt want to be personal.
> 
> Ive thought about smaller boxes but was afraid of all the additional room it would take up.
> 
> Thanks for the helpful replies.


If you read the thread title, it is clearly not advertised you intended to drive the frogs. Plain and simple. It looked as though the intention was to transport the frogs via mail.

JBear


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

I move one of my 20 gal tanks to and from my classroom every year for the Summer. Aside from the problems everyone else has pointed out, even a light weight tank is pretty heavy and difficult to adjust into tight spaces. Having to lean, twist and so forth with a tank in your hands and frogs in the tank is not safe for you or your frogs. I vote for frogs in shoeboxes, but even frogless tanks are going to be a pain to safely move. It looks like you have at least 7 tanks of which at least a couple are probably over 10 gal. I wish you the best of luck. Get yourself a back brace.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Very simple, if your moving frogs you put the frogs in deli cups and move them seperately from the tank, you will assuredly avert disaster this way. When I moved to Florida 12 years ago I left the frogs in their tanks, even had a pair lay a clutch on I-75 but it was because I had so many tanks and didn't have the time to do it properly. You want to know how long before they suffocate, they won't, they can live for a week in the tank with little issue. People are just trying to tell you the best way to do something based on the question you asked, all good advice. But if you plan on moving a tank and the frogs in it put them in a seperate container and then in a cooler, you will be glad you did.


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## DemonicalEnvy (Sep 7, 2011)

Wouldn't trying to catch your frogs and chasing them around their tank cause a lot of undo stress of its self? Wouldn't it be better to leave them in their tank and try to anchor any questionable decor? I would think ripping frogs from their "territory" would cause a lot of stress and sticking them in some unfamiliar environment would be very bad whether it be 10minutes or a few hour drive. Obviously i am new but it just seems like a bad idea chasing your frogs around and sticking them in this tiny deli container. If you leave them in their tank they don't know anything is going on except they are moving i can't see any stress if very little come from it and on the other hand with catching them i could see a lot of stress coming from it. just my .02


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Yes it will stress them a bit, but it no matter how you transport them, it will be stressful. By moving them into a new container you can avoid many risks from leaving them in the tank. I'm not sure how you could practically secure every loose item in a viv to prevent a frog being crushed or trapped with stops, starts, acceleration, bumps, etc. in driving without taking everything out of the tank- at least I don't know any way of doing it that I would feel comfortable trying. It should be easy enough for most frogs to carefully get them to hop into a new container. I use film cans for small frogs, tad cups for larger frogs: put the container in front of them, gently give them a little tap in the rear and they will go right into it. Slowly move this into the new tank, and I try to add a piece of leaf litter/plant clipping from the old tank (not sure if it matters, but it might have familiar smell/feel/bacteria from established viv which might help)
If you think about it, the frogs will (most likely) be hiding from the stress of moving... so whether they hide under a place they are used to living or in a new place seems irrelevant to me. Give them some film cans or leaves to hide under and they will be fine in a new container.
Bryan


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

I moved 4 10 gallon tanks (fully planted) from one apt to the other.
Carried them down 4 flights, I lined the tanks up on the back seat of a car. Added a cool pak to the top of each (in 88degree summer) and drove as fast and as delicately as I could. I diddent wrap them up or box them. I would say that I was in the car a total of 2 hours. The whole time freaking out about temps and the shaking. I kept the tanks upright and avoided bumps. Everyone seemed to come out ok. I would NOT do it again. 
They seemed stressed for a few days after.


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