# New Here. Need some help. (Dart frog paludarium)



## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

Hey everyone. So I am a complete noob with vivarium/paludariums. I want to construct a 40-60 gal paludarium though. Right now I am thinking a 40 gal breeder tank that measures 36x18x16. The reason for this is that Petco will be having their dollar a gallon sale when I am ready to purchase the tank in about two or three months.
Anyway to make this a little easier I will highlight my questions in red so if you dont want you dont have to read everything.

So anyway my whole Idea was to do something tropical. And I dont think I am going to have a fully planted background, but rather probably a sky blue or some other plain background as I am a fan of space when it comes to artistic things. I will however have a partial background and was wondering something.

1. Everyone seems to use coco coir for their background, but I heard that it rots really quick. Is it really a good background cover?

I also have a few other questions.
2. Should I set up a sump or would it be easier for me to just install a filter and heater behind fake rocks that I make? Im thinking a sump would be nicer.

3. I know a lot of mosses used in vivariums can be aquatic or terrestrial, but can i successfully get some to grow in both at the same time. (Climbing out of the water onto rocks?
4. If I do use a sump, I can just have the water returning to the tank through my water features rather than powering them separately, correct?

I have a lot of questions to come, but I figure I will ask those when I get to them. Thanks for your help!

Oh sorry and one big question...
5. I know dart frogs cant swim well. Does anyone have a solution so that I can keep them in a tank with water deep enough for fish, as well as with some caves. (Is there anyway to keep them out of the deep water?)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ben Eiben (Screen name Ben E) has made some of the best examples of that kind of enclosure. You can contact him through his page (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members/ben-e.html) and see if he has any good suggestions for you. 

If at all possible, you want to remote the filter outside of the tank for ease of maintenance. Anytime you have to go digging around in the tank, you are going to disrupt how it looks each time. 

Ed


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## Gnarly (Mar 3, 2011)

I had a 29g paludarium for a while. I kept fish in it, but never frogs. 

I would suggest (since you have not yet bought the tank) something a little bit taller if possible, especially considering you want to keep frogs. Depth is necessary for a lot of fish and even terrestrial frogs will do a little bit of climbing and eight inches for each isn't a lot of space for either species if you spilt it evenly.

Ed is absolutely right, a filter that allows access is the best way to go about it. You don't want to have to rip your tank apart for maintenance. A canister filter will allow for this and you can create a stream or waterfall with the out put if you chose. Another benefit of the canister filter is the it will operate with the lower water levels you will have in a paludarium. 

Good luck and I can't wait to see what you come up with.


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

Thanks for your quick replies!!! Are there any typical aquarium sizes that are taller but have the same length and width? I want something at least that wide. I specify "typical" because like I said I want to be able to find it at petco when they have their dollar a gallon sale. Or what size tank would you recommend? I guess it would have to be at least 50 gallons to be as wide as I want it but still tall enough? Unfortunately petco does not offer many bigger than 40 or I probably would have measured that up to make my rocks in the meantime.


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## Dangerously (Dec 19, 2007)

What type of frogs are you thinking about? My YT (in a 40 breeder) rarely leave the ground. They sometimes sit on a thick branch I have in the tank, but that's it (usually they're under it picking off ff's on the bottom of the branch). I have a couple tanks of juvenile YT, and they're a bit more upwardly mobile - I'll see them climbing plants sometimes. Azuerus are mostly ground-bound as well. If you want something like pums, then you'll want a lot of height.

Here's a list of standard tank sizes that might help you:

Aquarium tank volumes, capacities and stocking levels - US

Looks like you could get a 50 or 65 if you want more height. For the pums or other climbers, consider a vertical tank.

Dart frogs can drown in even shallow water, they aren't swimmers. I keep my water features just wet enough to cover the gravel on the bottom, so even if pinned upside down they won't drown.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

replies in blue 
Hey everyone. So I am a complete noob with vivarium/paludariums. I want to construct a 40-60 gal paludarium though. Right now I am thinking a 40 gal breeder tank that measures 36x18x16. The reason for this is that Petco will be having their dollar a gallon sale when I am ready to purchase the tank in about two or three months.
Anyway to make this a little easier I will highlight my questions in red so if you dont want you dont have to read everything.
Welcome to the forum I hope you learn a lot and have a great experience here 

So anyway my whole Idea was to do something tropical. And I dont think I am going to have a fully planted background, but rather probably a sky blue or some other plain background as I am a fan of space when it comes to artistic things. I will however have a partial background and was wondering something.

1. Everyone seems to use coco coir for their background, but I heard that it rots really quick. Is it really a good background cover?
I used EcoEarth in the bags...it's all ready to go, no soaking bricks and then baking it to dry it. $6 a bag. Idk how fast it will rot away tho. I actully never thought about a background rotting away 









I also have a few other questions.
2. Should I set up a sump or would it be easier for me to just install a filter and heater behind fake rocks that I make? Im thinking a sump would be nicer.
Sump would be an awesome idea if you have the time and $.
A Zoo Med 501 turtle filter would work great or some other canister filter if you don't want to do a sump. Or there is an awesome canister filter made by Tom Aquarium that is a lot cheaper yet looks better. I think you loose 10 gallons tho cause the 501 is rated at 30g and Tom Aquarium Rapids C80 Canister Filter only does 20g. With a 40g tank you shouldn't be doing more than 20g of water. Tom's canister filter is half the price. 501s can be almost $70 in some places.
Here is the TOM Aquarium Rapids Mini Canister hang-on-the-tank C-80, 80gph








on sale for $30 on Amazon right now 
Amazon.com: TOM Aquarium Rapids Mini Canister hang-on-the-tank C-80, 80gph: Pet Supplies


3. I know a lot of mosses used in vivariums can be aquatic or terrestrial, but can i successfully get some to grow in both at the same time. (Climbing out of the water onto rocks?
yeah the moss will come up out of the water. I'm not sure which one tho I'm still understanding moss better myself. I have seen pics of it creeping up out of the water tho.

4. If I do use a sump, I can just have the water returning to the tank through my water features rather than powering them separately, correct?
yup you can. make sure you get an adjustable pump to regulate your flow. If you use the Tom's canister filter I'm sure you can rig up some sort of ball valve if the flow is too high. if you separate the flow into different hoses it will slow down your rate as well.
Okapi did this hose trick on his water feature
















source:http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...4-my-vivarium-built-into-wall.html#post552105
he has a vid on that thread of the viv.



I have a lot of questions to come, but I figure I will ask those when I get to them. Thanks for your help!

Oh sorry and one big question...
5. I know dart frogs cant swim well. Does anyone have a solution so that I can keep them in a tank with water deep enough for fish, as well as with some caves. (Is there anyway to keep them out of the deep water?

I have though about this myself on my future paludarium and the only thing I could think of is screen or glass on top of the deep areas. 
The frogs can play in the water features and whatnot but if you seal off the deep parts so the frogs can't get in there then it should be ok.
I will be coming up with something like this for my paludarium.
I'm thinking like how in the ocean they have the nets to keep fish in. I'm thinking about something Like that that I can throw some java moss on and it will be like a java moss barrier and the frogs can access a small pool of water but where it drops off and gets deep is where that barrier will be.
Here is show a person using the plastic needlepoint canvas I mention below as a barrier for betta fish.








source:DIY tank dividers
So there will be a barrier in the front then on top will be screen but the top part would be a big door to feed the fish and to remove any that die.
The top of that part will be also covered in moss as well then when you mist it will just drain off the moss through the net and into the pond.
Just make sure the net holes are small enough to where the frogs can't get through....I am thinking about using plastic needlepoint canvas sheets.








pretty much it will be a false moss landmass but it will keep the frogs out of the deep water.

I know it's a wild idea but it just may work 
Hopefully I have helped you some 
I hope you didn't mind the long reply 
Happy frogging


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## Gnarly (Mar 3, 2011)

Maybe a standard column tank would be best, you can have a similar gallonage with more height. I've seen them at Petco and Petsmart; I'm not sure if columns are included in the dollar per gallon sale though.


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

Dragonspirit, thank you for answering all my questions in detail!.
Gnarly, I think for the look im going for I am just going to go with a 65gal. 36"x18"x24"
I was debating between a 40-65 from the beginning so it works perfect.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

gardennub said:


> Dragonspirit, thank you for answering all my questions in detail!.


you're very welcome 
65g is a very nice size.
I wish the $1 a gallon applied to Exo Terras and Zoo Med vivs lol
Does Petco even carry those haha I can't remember They closed the one here 

I can't wait to see your build


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

I think they do carry one or the other, but not very large. And I am going to have to ask if it is possible to order a 65 i dont think they have them in stock. I think im going to look on craigslist in the meantime though. I'd be OK with spending 100 now to be able to see how everything is going to fit.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

gardennub said:


> I think they do carry one or the other, but not very large. And I am going to have to ask if it is possible to order a 65 i dont think they have them in stock. I think im going to look on craigslist in the meantime though. I'd be OK with spending 100 now to be able to see how everything is going to fit.


Craigslist is an awesome place to find tanks.
I found a 55g for $20...had to drive an hour but it was worth it.
My sister beat me to this 125 gallon for $50 and she is using it right now as a stand for her beardie's vivs 

Good luck I hope you find something good


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## Gnarly (Mar 3, 2011)

gardennub said:


> Dragonspirit, thank you for answering all my questions in detail!.
> Gnarly, I think for the look im going for I am just going to go with a 65gal. 36"x18"x24"
> I was debating between a 40-65 from the beginning so it works perfect.


That will give you more room, even though it's just a few extra inches I think you'll be glad you went for the taller tank. 
I can't wait to see it


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