# Mystery Insect Invasion



## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

I've got some kind of almost microscopic insect taking over my Cobalt viv. They are to small for pictures. The only time you can see them is when you mist. It drives them crazy and they all scurry around. The Cobalt doesn't seem to mind much but, I'm going to have to break down the viv just in case unless someone has an idea what they are. 

Thanks in advance.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Sounds like springtails or baby isopods.....Springtails at least in my observation do the same thing you describe....What color are they? White?


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Did you seed the viv with microfauna?


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## RentaPig311 (Jul 6, 2009)

Doesn't sound to serious. If you really need to get rid of them though check out the dry ice method.


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## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

I've never seeded anything in my vivs. They must gave piggybacked in on something else. I've never seen one of the insects large enough for a frog to see and eat. My uneducated guess is that they may be an isopod. I wonder if they crawl on the frog and cause it stress. I've read on the dry ice method and I may give it a shot. It seems like there would be a few survivors though and you would find yourself back in the same boat. I wish I could figure out what they were. 

Thanks for the help guys.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Probably springtails. They start up for apparently no reason sometimes. Probably come in on a plant or the dirt stuck in the roots. When they come out, grab a straw and gently blow on them. If they are springtails, they will jump. Some species jump several inches. My giant blacks can jump 5 or 6"! Another clue is that springtails are usually much faster and more "chaotic". If they were isopods in any sort of density, you should see ones big enough to be identified as a "Rolly Polly".
Both of the bugs I've mentioned are good to have.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Just a warning, in the past I lost some frogs due to a mite infestation, they sucked blood from the frogs. Just be careful as you don't know what your dealing with. Bill


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

billschwinn said:


> Just a warning, in the past I lost some frogs due to a mite infestation, they sucked blood from the frogs. Just be careful as you don't know what your dealing with. Bill


Good point Bill didn't even think of mites.....


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

I second the mites thing... these are roundish (looking) type bugs. In the past I warned someone who was feeding their prized galacs right from the old fruit fly container not to do it. They said the galacs love to pick up the mites as well as the flies. The frog went into the open container and inside and was found the next day dead with mites covering more than 90% of the body. Sad story, but yeah beware if these are mites. A few mites may be a supplement for your frogs, just be on the lookout to see if there numbers are growing. They are especially fond of younger frogs, but in greater numbers can take down any size frog. 

Peter Keane


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## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

I appreciate the insight from everyone! I think I will try to capture a few tonight somehow and get a real close look at them. I'm hoping for springtails but, I'm afraid they might be mites. I think I can grab the coconut hut and get it over by the light where I can maybe see their color and shape. If I can discern anymore info from them when I look I will post it here. 

Thanks!


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## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

Peter Keane said:


> I second the mites thing... these are roundish (looking) type bugs. In the past I warned someone who was feeding their prized galacs right from the old fruit fly container not to do it. They said the galacs love to pick up the mites as well as the flies. The frog went into the open container and inside and was found the next day dead with mites covering more than 90% of the body. Sad story, but yeah beware if these are mites. A few mites may be a supplement for your frogs, just be on the lookout to see if there numbers are growing. They are especially fond of younger frogs, but in greater numbers can take down any size frog.
> 
> Peter Keane


That's crazy! Poor frog!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

billschwinn said:


> Just a warning, in the past I lost some frogs due to a mite infestation, they sucked blood from the frogs. Just be careful as you don't know what your dealing with. Bill


 
In cases like this the mites should be identified as I've had cases like this when I've found a freshly dead frog covered in mites only to have those mites turn out to be free living detrivore mites that are commonly found in the enclosures. In those cases, the mites don't kill the frog, they are simply the first decomposers on the scene. If there were/are blood sucking mites in the enclosure then you should find them attached to the frog(s) while the frogs are still up and active or lesions showing where they are embedded in the skin of the frogs. 

See this abstract for an example of the issue JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie 
Pathology of cutaneous trombidiosis caused by larval trombiculid mites in a wild Lesueur's tree frog (Litoria wilcoxii) - [email protected]


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> In cases like this the mites should be identified as I've had cases like this when I've found a freshly dead frog covered in mites only to have those mites turn out to be free living detrivore mites that are commonly found in the enclosures. In those cases, the mites don't kill the frog, they are simply the first decomposers on the scene. If there were/are blood sucking mites in the enclosure then you should find them attached to the frog(s) while the frogs are still up and active or lesions showing where they are embedded in the skin of the frogs.
> 
> See this abstract for an example of the issue JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
> Pathology of cutaneous trombidiosis caused by larval trombiculid mites in a wild Lesueur's tree frog (Litoria wilcoxii) - [email protected]


Almost every viv, maybe every viv, is going to have mites sooner or later, probably sooner. The vast majority are going to be harmless to your frogs. Scavengers and decomposers can easily get a bad rap simply by doing what they do best. As an example, to this day, many reefkeepers still mistakenly believe that bristle worms are predators. In reality, out of the hundreds or thousands of types of bristle worms, only 2 have ever been proven to attack live flesh. There feeding response is triggered by dead, decomposing, flesh. So a reef keeper fails to meet the requirements of his prized Maxima clam. Clam looks fine one day, but is dead and covered with bristle worms the next. Reefkeeper believes that the worms killed his clam and goes on a "worm rampage", trying to capture and kill every worm in the tank. Little does he know that the worms actually saved his tank from a major crash. A huge chunk of meat (the clam) rotting in the tank, would have caused elevated nitrite and ammonia levels, causing more animals to die and levels to rise more, eventually crashing the tank. His thank you to the worms...death!
Maybe a sidetrack, sorry. I just thought it would be some more info backing Ed in that most mites are really harmless to your frogs. I use contaminated cultures to feed my pumilio babies. Mites are like candy to them!


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Ed said:


> In cases like this the mites should be identified as I've had cases like this when I've found a freshly dead frog covered in mites only to have those mites turn out to be free living detrivore mites that are commonly found in the enclosures. In those cases, the mites don't kill the frog, they are simply the first decomposers on the scene. If there were/are blood sucking mites in the enclosure then you should find them attached to the frog(s) while the frogs are still up and active or lesions showing where they are embedded in the skin of the frogs.
> 
> See this abstract for an example of the issue JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
> Pathology of cutaneous trombidiosis caused by larval trombiculid mites in a wild Lesueur's tree frog (Litoria wilcoxii) - [email protected]


Hey Ed, my vet at the time made the discovery when I brought him live frogs for exam.But no ID was made.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

billschwinn said:


> Hey Ed, my vet at the time made the discovery when I brought him live frogs for exam.But no ID was made.


 
Hi Bill, 

Interesting. The reason I was saying they need to be identified is because all of the ones that are in the literature as feeding on live frogs are trombiculid mites (chiggers) so it is possible you could have had a new species on your hands. 
Did he at least determine if they were adults or nymphal mites? 

Typically clearing up trombiculid mite infections can take months with repeat ivermectin treatments and manual removal. Simply stripping down the cage doesn't do anything to resolve the issue particularly if the adult mite is a feeder on organic detritus allowing for multiple breeding cycles in the cage.


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## TheDudeWithTheFrogs (Mar 21, 2010)

Could this be what you are talking about?








(center of pic)
They are what you describe and have been in my viv for a while, though there are no forgs in it. Ive always thought they were aphids though they might be mites.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It is a mite.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

mites can be problematic, even the detrivores. sometimes they can reproduce out of control and they will really stress the frogs. some other mites will eat insect eggs, so you wind up with decimated springtail populations. since the frogs dont eat them, they might get out of control.


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## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

That's a very interesting article. I believe they are describing a different mite than what I may have. They describe it as "ovoid" or egg shaped. I think mine are more elongated. Also, I do not have any sores on my frog (thank god). The mite in the picture posted is huge in comparison to my insect infestation. I don't think they grow big enough for my frog to eat. At least I've never seen one that big. Seeing the way they cover my coconut hut makes me think they may be crawling all over my Cobalt. It would be a shame to break down my viv for no reason. I need to figure this out. If I can't I will have to do it just to be safe. 

Thanks to all!






Ed said:


> In cases like this the mites should be identified as I've had cases like this when I've found a freshly dead frog covered in mites only to have those mites turn out to be free living detrivore mites that are commonly found in the enclosures. In those cases, the mites don't kill the frog, they are simply the first decomposers on the scene. If there were/are blood sucking mites in the enclosure then you should find them attached to the frog(s) while the frogs are still up and active or lesions showing where they are embedded in the skin of the frogs.
> 
> See this abstract for an example of the issue JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
> Pathology of cutaneous trombidiosis caused by larval trombiculid mites in a wild Lesueur's tree frog (Litoria wilcoxii) - [email protected]


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## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

TheDudeWithTheFrogs said:


> Could this be what you are talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a lot larger and pear shaped. This bug is supper tiny and shaped a bit different. They are fairly quick moving. Thanks for trying to help!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I find that they don't seem to do very well in water. Maybe try some serious misting of your tank. Probably won't get rid of them but might thin them out a bit.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

That depends entirely on the mites in the enclosure. Mites inhabit a wide range of conditions from fully aquatic to full terrestrial.. as an example check out 



 (I have to admit, I've only seen them a few times and never in that kind of numbers..(but I'm also still looking for the famous freshwater jellyfish..)) 

Ed


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Ed said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> Interesting. The reason I was saying they need to be identified is because all of the ones that are in the literature as feeding on live frogs are trombiculid mites (chiggers) so it is possible you could have had a new species on your hands.
> Did he at least determine if they were adults or nymphal mites?
> ...


Hey Ed, there were several sizes so I think there were several stages of life cycle present. They were Opaque or a milky-pearl color and very tiny. I could not see them unless I took the sample out in the yard under sunlight.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

ryank458 said:


> That's a lot larger and pear shaped. This bug is supper tiny and shaped a bit different. They are fairly quick moving. Thanks for trying to help!


Touch one with the tip of something small. If it jumps - it's a springtail.  










I'm leaning away from predatory mites, btw. If it's not a springtail of some sort - it's probably just detrivore mites which aren't really a big problem unless you have a massive population.


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## TheDudeWithTheFrogs (Mar 21, 2010)

Not trying to steal the thread here but if what is in the pic is a mite, then how do I get rid of them. I know there are alot more in the viv and Im planning on getting some frogs for that viv in a few months so I need to get rid of them. I dont want to take the risk and have them be predatory mites and loose a frog. Please help.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

billschwinn said:


> Hey Ed, there were several sizes so I think there were several stages of life cycle present. They were Opaque or a milky-pearl color and very tiny. I could not see them unless I took the sample out in the yard under sunlight.


 
Very interesting Bill. Thanks for the information. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TheDudeWithTheFrogs said:


> Not trying to steal the thread here but if what is in the pic is a mite, then how do I get rid of them. I know there are alot more in the viv and Im planning on getting some frogs for that viv in a few months so I need to get rid of them. I dont want to take the risk and have them be predatory mites and loose a frog. Please help.


 

Actually many of the dendrobatids are known to feed on mites. 

Detrivore mites are pretty much inevitable in the enclosures as they can end up in the cultures in several different ways. 

Ed


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## TheDudeWithTheFrogs (Mar 21, 2010)

Thanks for the quick response. Though Im planning on getting some pumilio for this viv. Would they eat the mites?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TheDudeWithTheFrogs said:


> Thanks for the quick response. Though Im planning on getting some pumilio for this viv. Would they eat the mites?


Yes, yes they do.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

TheDudeWithTheFrogs said:


> Thanks for the quick response. Though Im planning on getting some pumilio for this viv. Would they eat the mites?


I agree with Ed. Had a ff culture crash and my springs were getting low. I was scrambling to find something for my pums to eat (2 adults and 4 froglets in the tank). So, I scavenged mites from an infected isopod culture and put them in the tank. The whole family gathered around the pile of mites and devoured them. I was glad to have a use for those annoying mites. Win/win.


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## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

Ed said:


> That depends entirely on the mites in the enclosure. Mites inhabit a wide range of conditions from fully aquatic to full terrestrial.. as an example check out YouTube - ‪Big Red Water Mites, Trombidiformes?‬‏ (I have to admit, I've only seen them a few times and never in that kind of numbers..(but I'm also still looking for the famous freshwater jellyfish..))
> 
> Ed


I've seen those jelly fish here in Indiana Scuba diving at a Rock Quarry! Very cool and worth finding.


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## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

So, I've decided they are springtails because they jump when you touch them. But, I wonder if there are too many? And I wonder why I've never spotted an adult one? They are to small to be eaten by a tinc. I still worry they might be crawling over the frog causing it stress. Not sure what to do with them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ryank458 said:


> So, I've decided they are springtails because they jump when you touch them. But, I wonder if there are too many? And I wonder why I've never spotted an adult one? They are to small to be eaten by a tinc. I still worry they might be crawling over the frog causing it stress. Not sure what to do with them.


 
There are going to be booms and busts of these over time. Unless your frogs are acting stressed (refusing food, hiding all the time, using thier hind legs to rub things off of themselves) let the boom die down on it's own. 

Ed


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## Yobosayo (Sep 27, 2009)

ryank458 said:


> They are to small to be eaten by a tinc.


I constantly see all of my frogs, tincs and thumbs, striking at microfauna that I can't see...


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

I have pinhead brown mites that seem to eat detritus. All my frogs strike and eat them. Sometimes there is a lot but the frogs just sit there and buffet. Microfauna Sizzler.


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## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

Since I wasn't exactly sure what they were, they were to tiny to eat, there where hundreds of them, and my frog has been hiding more then what's normal...... I decided to kill them little critters! It went really well and it was surprisingly easy and cheap. Other than having to move a frog out of it's home its a peice of cake using CO2 method. It cost about $2 bucks for dry ice at Meijer. Threw it in two cups and put those cups in the viv and dumped hot water on it. Death to all micro fauna! Hopefully when they make their reappearance it will be on a more controlled basis. 

Thanks to all that lent there knowledge. Here's a link to the article I followed if someone else needs to give this method a whirl. 

Dart Frog Forum on Husbandry and Habitat Information - Eliminating Vivarium Pests Using the CO2 method

Thanks!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Mites do not jump. Springtails do. Springtails are a valuable and natural part of our vivs that should be left alone or encouraged. They work as janitors, cleaning up your frogs poop along with molding and decomposing leaves etc. They are a natural source of food that even most larger frogs enjoy hunting.


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## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

Yes, I understand what springtails are and what they do. My concern was for the quanity of them. There were hundreds if not thousands covering every surface of the viv including the frog.


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