# Mixing Species



## Nate (Jan 5, 2009)

For all of you who think this is going to be a newbie question about whether or not it is acceptable to mix species, it definitely isn't!

I hear people ask about mixing species and others say don't! Which is my view too, but I also here this occasionally:



dart_king said:


> 4. About mixing species, Dont. Its not something you should be doing especially as a bigginer, people who mix species have lots of experiance and have or atleast should have huge tanks.


So why do people say you have to have a lot of experience to mix species? It doesn't stop the darts from creating hybrids. I am not asking this because I want to mix, I am asking this because I am wondering what people with experience would do that makes this acceptable by the Dendrobatidae Community? If I ever do mix, it will because I have a totally sealed and fully planted tropical greenhouse at my disposal.

Thanks for any explanations to this question!
_(The reason I posted this here is because it is not really a beginner topic....)_


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

I would guess its deemed acceptable because with experience comes knowledge.

A more advanced keeper I would say generally is more likely to cull hybrids or destroy eggs because they know more about the species and the harm hybrids can cause to the hobby as a whole.

Justin


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Mixing species is different from creating hybrids. Many frogs won't hybridize and I doubt an experienced keeper would mix frogs which could interbreed.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Perhaps with experience comes the ability to design a viv wiith two different species that ulilize two completely different niches, one terrestrial and one arboreal, lets say, AND MAKE SURE THAT THE NEEDS OF BOTH ARE MET/EXCEEDED IN THE DESIGN PRINCIPLE. With a 500 gallon viv, there's bound to be plenty of room for a group of leucs, as well as a group of imis. And yes, the stomach to destroy eggs/ hybrids when they are suspected


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I would think the experience people speak of has to do with knowing the different behavioral needs/tendancies of different frog species. This will be very beneficial in order to notice aggression between frogs that can lead to health issues either by way of sickness or physical injury. 

And trust me, even with experience:
1. It still is not easy
and
2. It still is not accepted by alot of the Dendro Community


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> I would think the experience people speak of has to do with knowing the different behavioral needs/tendancies of different frog species. This will be very beneficial in order to notice aggression between frogs that can lead to health issues either by way of sickness or physical injury.
> 
> And trust me, even with experience:
> 1. It still is not easy
> ...


I'd like to know how and why the above quote is deserving of a negative reputation hit.

I'd also like to know who does not have the nerve to post their name when giving the negative reputation hit.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> I would think the experience people speak of has to do with knowing the different behavioral needs/tendancies of different frog species. This will be very beneficial in order to notice aggression between frogs that can lead to health issues either by way of sickness or physical injury.
> 
> And trust me, even with experience:
> 1. It still is not easy
> ...


Good comment and deserving of positive as opposed to negative feedback.

Bill


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

elmoisfive said:


> Good comment and deserving of positive as opposed to negative feedback.
> 
> Bill


Thank you Bill. I know my views are not the same as most here and I probably deserved some of the negative hits I received in the past but I have been really making a concious effort to reflect my opinions in a positive and constructive manner.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Thanks for the positive feedback melas and Bill. It is appreciated.

Whoever gave me another negative for asking why a post was deemed to deserve a negative hit and asking that they post their name, thanks. It would have been nice if you used the PM function rather then hiding behind the negative comment. Please just shoot me a PM.


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

I'll put my flame proof suit on and venture an opinion, why not. I think it would be acceptable to mix frogs of a given type if they are all the same gender (males would work better than females, in most cases). That is about the only circumstance I can think of that would work, and that would only be for educational purposes.

For example, there is (or was) a very large display tank set up by a local pet store at our local cineplex. Nicely done, and had a variety of tinc morphs in it. I haven't looked closely enough to tell if they are all the same gender, and I invoke whatever deity might be listening to request that they aren't keeping any eggs if they do get them. However, that tank is quite popular and I'm sure it has contributed to educating the public about tropical frogs and habitat preservation, as well as maybe influencing a few people to start the hobby.

I myself have considered setting up a display tank that I can take to various orchid shows, again for educational purposes. I am still debating if I would mix morphs or not, since I think it is important that people see the variety of frogs, but equally important are my concerns about mixing. 

So... There you have an experienced person weighing in. I know what I'm doing (and am still very ambivalent about actually doing it!), and if _you_ know what you are doing, then think before you jump. Otherwise, don't jump. That works for frogs, airplanes, bridges, all sorts of life situations. Think, think again, think a third time, and then and only then jump into action.


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

Being brand new to frogs… but having many years of Cichlid (fish) keeping/breeding experience…

I highly appreciate all the related views on mixing species and avoiding hybridization… much of this parallels fish keeping/breeding…

Ensuring territorialism/aggression is not going to be an issue is a must if/when mixing species… only through personal experience with different species as well as individual specimen could such determinations be made…

Knowing the needs of different species and having the ability to not only supply but exceed such needs is pertinent in such mixing situation… being well read enough to “know” these things is nice but being well experienced to have a working knowledge of how to make them a reality is a far more likely platform for success.

Having the ability to be responsible with hybrid offspring is another point that would require experience. Personally I am firmly against raising hybrids, although being new to frogs it would be very hard for me to put down my first spawn (if they were hybrids). Someone who has felt the joy of breeding and probably has breeding pairs in non mixed tanks could accept this responsibility much better than someone new to the hobby…

Jelly… I valued your opinion as much as I did the rest…


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Toby_H said:


> Being brand new to frogs… but having many years of Cichlid (fish) keeping/breeding experience…
> 
> I highly appreciate all the related views on mixing species and avoiding hybridization… much of this parallels fish keeping/breeding…
> 
> ...


I think this is exactly correct, that the worry that most experienced hobbyists have about "hybrids" being produced by new hobbyists is that this is a difficult hobby for someone to maintain over time and it would be easy for a newcomer to lose track of any crossed frogs he/she might have produced. I have been in the hobby for 12 years and still feel that I don't have all the answers when it comes to inter-morph animals.

That said, I don't keep different SPECIES in the same tank (that's why I have over 40 enclosure!!) For those that only want to keep one display tank, it would probably be best to have a nice community group of a single species (such as P. terribilis, which seem to perform really well in groups). 

Peace, Richard in Staten Island.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> That said, I don't keep different SPECIES in the same tank (that's why I have over 40 enclosure!!)


Out of curiosity is there some reason the word "species" is emphasized? Are you keeping different morphs of the same "species" in the same enclosure or something? Or am I just misreading you?


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

I believe Richard has already stated that he is keeping different tinc morphs in the same tank. Green Sip and Cobalt I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Richard.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I think that the big thing is understanding that Species A and Species B don't automatically do well together because they look good together, even if they're all males. One of my biggest pet peeves in regards to mixing is that people want to mix species that would never see each other in the wild (i.e. mixing leucs with auratus). Each species have different habitat requirements and by introducing allopatric species, you potentially put species that can be at odds whether you realize it or not.

Personally, if I were to ever mix species, it would A. be in a large enclosure B. be with species that cannot interbreed and C. be with sympatric species. It would be great to make a tank with both pumilio and auratus, and it could be done because these frogs have been found side-by-side quite literally. They've evolved in the same habitat and require the same things.

I think that that is where the experience comes into play. If you mimic the natural environment, then you shouldn't have issues. I think that issues start coming into play when people start creating situations that would never happen in nature.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

I scanned over this really fast so if this has already been said I just hit the point home a little more... People think that just because they have breeding frogs that the frog are happy and in a perfect setup...the truth of the matter is that I have seen frogs breed in horrendous shape and in less then ideal situations...Its the wile of every living this to breed its the only thing every living thing on the planted shares in common..just because they breed does not mean thier happy..my 2 cents
Brian


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Brian Ferriera said:


> I scanned over this really fast so if this has already been said I just hit the point home a little more... People think that just because they have breeding frogs that the frog are happy and in a perfect setup...the truth of the matter is that I have seen frogs breed in horrendous shape and in less then ideal situations...Its the wile of every living this to breed its the only thing every living thing on the planted shares in common..just because they breed does not mean thier happy..my 2 cents
> Brian


It could mean quite the opposite - "Oh my god, we're going to die, we need to procreate!"


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

MonarchzMan said:


> It could mean quite the opposite - "Oh my god, we're going to die, we need to procreate!"


With apologies to the "Somalian-like" hyjacking of this thread....

....thats a very interesting point brought up by Brian and now you, MM.

IMHO great husbandry and good health don't quarentee breeding, but I would bet it's a 80 / 20 type percentage...

In other words: If your animals court and fully reproduce it is MOST likely due to good husbandry and proper conditions.....than not.

Always exceptions, of course and Absolutes are always absolutely bad...

Oh and BTW....I'm anti mixing, but you guys already knew that....


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Oh, yea, I didn't mean it to sound like if they were breeding, it was because it was a dire situation, but simply that breeding does not necessarily mean they're healthy frogs.


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> I would think the experience people speak of has to do with knowing the different behavioral needs/tendancies of different frog species. This will be very beneficial in order to notice aggression between frogs that can lead to health issues either by way of sickness or physical injury.
> 
> And trust me, even with experience:
> 1. It still is not easy
> ...


As a beginner, this is always one of the main arguments I hear against mixing (besides the standard no hybridization). An experienced keeper will be better able to tell what behavior is normal and what is not, and if the frog is stressed. I think the knowledge of what species can and cannot interbreed, what species live "together" in the wild, and how to create a natural habitat are also very important. But they are also things that a beginner could look up or ask questions about. I think it's more the knowledge of frog behaviors and successful husbandry practices- things that cannot be learned from simple research- that make this an endeavor for experienced keepers (if anyone).


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

MonarchzMan said:


> I think that the big thing is understanding that Species A and Species B don't automatically do well together because they look good together, even if they're all males. One of my biggest pet peeves in regards to mixing is that people want to mix species that would never see each other in the wild (i.e. mixing leucs with auratus). Each species have different habitat requirements and by introducing allopatric species, you potentially put species that can be at odds whether you realize it or not.
> 
> Personally, if I were to ever mix species, it would A. be in a large enclosure B. be with species that cannot interbreed and C. be with sympatric species. It would be great to make a tank with both pumilio and auratus, and it could be done because these frogs have been found side-by-side quite literally. They've evolved in the same habitat and require the same things.
> 
> I think that that is where the experience comes into play. If you mimic the natural environment, then you shouldn't have issues. I think that issues start coming into play when people start creating situations that would never happen in nature.


I agree with a lot in this post. I think that mixing of species that would never meet in a natural setting is possibly the worst type of mixing. I personally wouldnt mix, but there are several species that live in sympatry with each other. For example: reticulatus and blackwater vents can be found together in nature, but that doesnt mean i would mix them even if I had been in this hobby for longer than seven months.


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