# HELP! No clue what to do =(



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I just got home and I found one of my froglets with its arms and legs all outstretched. Currently he is still breathing, but I picked him up and he's totally unresponsive. For the last few days he hasn't really been interested in food, and he would ignore most food that crawled by. He's also been acting really weirdly recently, just trying to crawl up the sides of the viv, and hasn't been active. The humidity is above 90%, and the temp is a little high at 80F (taken with a digital thermometer/hygrometer), and I have another froglet in the viv that is very hungry and active so I don't know whats going on.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Maybe because the temp is a little high he's having a seizure?


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## gio (Nov 9, 2010)

sound like you might hava a killer fungus in the tank where did you get your frogs

Killer fungus threatening amphibians


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Do you supplement his flies?


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## gio (Nov 9, 2010)

one factor is that the humidity is at 90 and should stay under 90 and stop at 79 and the 80f is not a great idea i keep mines at 70-78 and nothing more to much is bad and will over heat the viv


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I got this particular one at Frog Day from Joe Nickerson, but the frog has only been acting weird like within the last week or two (he was very healthy when i got him I think). I've been dusting the flies with repashy calcium+

if i gently nudge him a bit i can seem him blink and twitch an arm a bit


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## gio (Nov 9, 2010)

sounds to me your frog had stress and wasnt in the best of moods or eating and it started to slow but steadly die


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

UGH I'm a horrible person =((. He croaked =((((

So should I do anything now regarding the other froglet? Should I move him from the viv to a temporary container in case there's some sort of vector? Should I like, empty out everything in the viv and wash it down?

Should I do anything with the deceased frog, like send him to get looked at?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

gio said:


> one factor is that the humidity is at 90 and should stay under 90 and stop at 79 and the 80f is not a great idea i keep mines at 70-78 and nothing more to much is bad and will over heat the viv


Uhh... _what_? Where are you getting your information?

Sorry to hear about your frog. It's going to be impossible to tell what the cause of its death was without a necropsy (although there are some vets who will do that for you). You can get a necropsy to ensure that there's posing a threat to the other frog. Or you can isolate the remaining frog to a sterilized temp container, sterilize the viv and get fecals done on the live frog... probably won't be quite as fool-proof as getting the necropsy done, but will probably take care of things.

Next time you see that something is up, post a lot sooner. When a frog gets to this stage it's pretty rare that things can be done. However, a week or two ago when things first started going downhill there would've been a higher chance of success.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

> Next time you see that something is up, post a lot sooner. When a frog gets to this stage it's pretty rare that things can be done. However, a week or two ago when things first started going downhill there would've been a higher chance of success.


I did!! I posted a thread called "Froglet Aggression?" in the general forum and reposted it in the beginner forum and got no answers =(


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## gio (Nov 9, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Uhh... _what_? Where are you getting your information?
> 
> Sorry to hear about your frog. It's going to be impossible to tell what the cause of its death was without a necropsy (although there are some vets who will do that for you). You can get a necropsy to ensure that there's posing a threat to the other frog. Or you can isolate the remaining frog to a sterilized temp container, sterilize the viv and get fecals done on the live frog... probably won't be quite as fool-proof as getting the necropsy done, but will probably take care of things.
> 
> Next time you see that something is up, post a lot sooner. When a frog gets to this stage it's pretty rare that things can be done. However, a week or two ago when things first started going downhill there would've been a higher chance of success.


my information is my way ive been looking at my frogs behavior i like to test out allot of things and this was one test i seen my viv and pdf 
1. factor is when the (F) was to hot 90 degrees my pdf always was near the water and usualy in it it depends on the spicies of frogs you have the azerus is a ground frog not an arboreal wich is the canopy layer which is the hottest spot most of the heat if eny wont reach the forest floor 

Amphibian Care >> Poison Dart Frog (Dendrobatidae) Care


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

gio said:


> my information is my way ive been looking at my frogs behavior i like to test out allot of things and this was one test i seen my viv and pdf
> 1. factor is when the (F) was to hot 90 degrees my pdf always was near the water and usualy in it it depends on the spicies of frogs you have the azerus is a ground frog not an arboreal wich is the canopy layer which is the hottest spot most of the heat if eny wont reach the forest floor
> 
> Amphibian Care >> Poison Dart Frog (Dendrobatidae) Care


I don't think anyone would argue that it is not a good idea to keep dart frogs at 90 degrees. I think Jake was just wondering why you said that humidity should stay under 90, which also confused me. 
Anyway, sorry for your loss I hope the other froglet doesn't have any problems. If the thermometer said 80 and it was an inexpensive or inaccurate one, it could be several degrees off and you may really be in the mid 80's. When in doubt, it's better to keep it on the low side so that if temps swing or thermometers are not correct, the true temperature will still be in the acceptable range. I would try to drop it down to mid 70's if possible for extra leeway.
Bryan


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## gio (Nov 9, 2010)

to make sure you have the right humidity and tempeture i use 2 in my viv

Fluker's Temperature and Humidity Gauge

Measures Temperature & Humidity - Get two instruments for the price of one! Environmental temperature and humidity are arguable the two most important factors in properly maintaining reptiles and amphibians in captivity. Fluker Laboratories is pleased to offer this convenient thermometer and hygrometer multi-pack to help pet owners provide safer, healthier more comfortable environments for their pets.

i have 2 in the tank in different spots it shows the lowest/highest in the tank also humidity its a real great tool and its easy to use sorry for your lost


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

hypostatic,

There is also a possibility that you did really nothing wrong. I also do not see how it had anything to do with humidity you can even see moisture in your photo. Not all froglets make it. I am not sure if any suggestions you could have received from your earlier "aggression" post would have changed things. It is always a difficult learning curve when a frogs dies in your care. Finding a few people you trust to talk with or seeking out a vet willing to work with darts, can at least help the guilt factor a bit and of course at best save a frog.

Keep at it you will be fine. 



gio said:


> sound like you might hava a killer fungus in the tank where did you get your frogs
> 
> Killer fungus threatening amphibians


Gio, 

This is really jumping to conclusions and is quite frankly very wicked to post without much much much more info that would lead someone to even suggest chytrid is the cause. 

Sally


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

gio said:


> to make sure you have the right humidity and tempeture i use 2 in my viv
> 
> Fluker's Temperature and Humidity Gauge
> 
> ...


IME, these tend to fail over time (and sometimes rather quickly). As well, they're only reasonably accurate at best. You're right to use two instead of one  I have yet to see one accurately give readings in high humidity for more than a couple months. Without shelling out the cash for a more expensive/higher quality hygrometer you may as well be best-guesstimating (which seems like the way that most people do go about it). I have one like that that I use for spot-checking now and again, but I don't put much faith in the reading alone. How long have yours been up and running in your viv?


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## dynekevin (May 24, 2011)

I read about similar symptoms in another well established breeder in a newer vivarium. He linked it to Co2 BUILD UP. I would move all frogs to a quarantine enclosure as soon as possible!

Is there no vent? Very similar symptoms!!!


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## dynekevin (May 24, 2011)

Heres a couple links on co2!

Carbon Dioxide 2


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

gio said:


> my information is my way ive been looking at my frogs behavior i like to test out allot of things and this was one test i seen my viv and pdf
> 1. factor is when the (F) was to hot 90 degrees my pdf always was near the water and usualy in it it depends on the spicies of frogs you have the azerus is a ground frog not an arboreal wich is the canopy layer which is the hottest spot most of the heat if eny wont reach the forest floor
> 
> Amphibian Care >> Poison Dart Frog (Dendrobatidae) Care


 
And on what basis are you getting the information that the temperature is hotter in the canopy and cooler closer to the ground in the tropics...? 
I'm interested in seeing the data that supports that statement. 

It would be very helpful if you posted correct information instead of wild guesses that have little or no grounding in real space. 
Chytrid doesn't kill amphibians at temperatures above 75 F.. so that would have ruled that out right off the bat if you understood the disease process for that fungus. 

Normally I don't tee off on someone but in a number of threads you have been less than helpful and in this thread not useful at all.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Hmmm I don't think it was CO2 because it is a 20G viv with a bunch of plants and two tiny frogs, so I can't really imagine too much CO2 building up (plus it's not completely airtight).

I think it might have been a bad combination of heat and stress. Today was an unusually hot day and my A/C unit just couldn't keep up. My viv thermometer and the room thermometer pretty much agree if they are placed next to each other, and the memory for my viv thermometer read 81.1F. Ummm any ideas on how to cool down my viv until I can replace my A/C? Tomorrow is supposed to be a record high =/. And also my light is adding a negligible amount of heat since its a fluorescent bulb thats like a foot away pointing at the viv


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

81 F isn't enough to cause problems with those frogs.. 

With respect to CO2, unless there was some manner of venting, you can't rule out CO2 as plants take up oxygen at night and release CO2 and if there isn't any air circulation and/or venting close to the substrate then CO2 can pool at the lower levels of the enclosure displacing oxygen (as it is heavier than oxygen).


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

hypostatic said:


> I did!! I posted a thread called "Froglet Aggression?" in the general forum and reposted it in the beginner forum and got no answers =(


My bad... sorry no one got to those :/ There is a forum specifically dedicated to sick frogs here, next time you should try that as well.... Don't consider yourself a "horrible person." Sometimes bad stuff just happens....

Bryan, I was wondering about the "your humidity shouldn't be over 90," yes... but I was _also_ wondering about why 80 degrees is bad. Yes, 90 is probably bad. 80 is in pretty safe parameters... no you probably wouldn't want much higher than that (especially without significant ventilation/air circulation), but 80 degrees is not going to kill the frog. Lots of conclusions were thrown around in the beginning of this thread without providing justification (justification that would have been impossible... or at least extremely difficult with the few details that were described in the OP).

hypostatic, I'd get fecals and/or a necropsy done if possible... but I have a feeling chances are (at least based on the information you gave) that you did everything right.... Next time we (or at least _I_) will try to comment earlier before tragedy strikes again.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Bryan, I was wondering about the "your humidity shouldn't be over 90," yes... but I was _also_ wondering about why 80 degrees is bad. Yes, 90 is probably bad. 80 is in pretty safe parameters... no you probably wouldn't want much higher than that (especially without significant ventilation/air circulation), but 80 degrees is not going to kill the frog. Lots of conclusions were thrown around in the beginning of this thread without providing justification (justification that would have been impossible... or at least extremely difficult with the few details that were described in the OP).


I understand that 80 is fine for most frogs, several of my breeder tanks hit 82-83 daily during the summer, but they have cooler areas to retreat to and stay less active during those hours. However, I have found that froglets, especially younger ones who could be stressed from a new move or possible feeding competition, can be at much higher risk for problems from heat that others. The reason I suggested the OP drop the temperatures down a bit is that in case the thermometer was slightly off and temperatures in the viv were actually more like 84 than 81, he would have a larger margin of error with the temps.
Bryan


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I understand that 80 is fine for most frogs, several of my breeder tanks hit 82-83 daily during the summer, but they have cooler areas to retreat to and stay less active during those hours. However, I have found that froglets, especially younger ones who could be stressed from a new move or possible feeding competition, can be at much higher risk for problems from heat that others. The reason I suggested the OP drop the temperatures down a bit is that in case the thermometer was slightly off and temperatures in the viv were actually more like 84 than 81, he would have a larger margin of error with the temps.
> Bryan


My issue was not with you at all. I also try to keep most of my vivs (with few exceptions) around 76 or so. My issue was with a previous post that labeled 80 degrees "bad," particularly without providing justification (justification is something I usually look for, and something I _always_ look for when that poster has provided questionable reasoning and/or advice).


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

My mistake, I just misunderstood you before. I agree though with your comments.
Bryan


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## BYHGAB (Jun 13, 2011)

How much of an issue is the carbon dioxide buildup? Is this very common cuz the breeder I got my frogs from said to just get a glass top for my 10gal and that they don't need ventilation, besides removing the lid for feedings


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

They don't "need" ventilation because you're opening the lid to mist and feeding them which provides some fresh air. Lots of people also do have a vent of some sort. Just because they don't need it though, doesn't mean that it's not good for them.


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## BYHGAB (Jun 13, 2011)

Thanks, I didn't know if it is common or not. The next one will have a vent then thanks again


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

BYHGAB said:


> Thanks, I didn't know if it is common or not. The next one will have a vent then thanks again


Most especially in taller vertical tanks where there is a lot of decaying leaf litter (and isopods munching on it), without ventilation, leaving the tank closed for more than a few days (and sometimes even less time with warmer temps) could cause issues with frogs asphixiating from lack of oxygen. When provided with fresh air the situation can be reversed if it is not 'too late'. Ventilation from the bottom and top provides the means for a natural air exchange that allows this heavy CO2 gas to leave the tank. 
This scenario would be more likely to happen with ground dwellers like azureus than with arboreal species like many thumbnails based on the fact that CO2 is heavier than the surrounding air.


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## Atmus (Mar 3, 2010)

Has anyone done any studies on how many and what kind of plants you need to provide oxygen for the animals without needing to vent? Seems like that would have been a challenge someone would have taken up by now.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Atmus said:


> Has anyone done any studies on how many and what kind of plants you need to provide oxygen for the animals without needing to vent? Seems like that would have been a challenge someone would have taken up by now.


You mean until the lights went off, photosynthesis stopped and the plants began to uptake oxygen and release CO2 which due to the sealed nature of the enclosure would seep down to the lowest point in the enclosure displacing the air?


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## Atmus (Mar 3, 2010)

No, I mean finding out how many of what kinds of plants you need to build up enough oxygen for the animals to survive comfortably until the lights come back on, assuming there is some sort of air circulation. Sorry I wasn't specific enough.

I assume this would require a much larger and heavilier planted enclosure than most people go for, but that is an unscientific assumtion. I have neither the resources nor education to find this out correctly myself. I am however willing to bet that someone, somewhere does, has, and published the results formally or informally.


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