# 10 gallon tanks...just don't....please.



## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

New folks please stop with the 10 gallon tanks. If you are gonna set up a 10 gallon then please use the full tank. No water features or anything, even wood is gonna take up too much space unless using it for shelter. You can only put at the most a pair of froglets in there even then you're pushing it. They need something bigger as adults. 
Please start off with 20 long tanks and make your frogs happy. 
Give them as much space as possible. 

-Forget moss, use leaf litter.
-Use well draining soil like ABG mix http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html Cocofiber just doesn't cut it.
-Have a drainage layer of about 2 inches
-Give them plenty of places to hide. A fully open floor plan with no places to hide stresses them out. 
-Seed the tank BEFORE you put in frogs and let the microfauna and plants establish themselves. 
-Have the tank fully set up before you add the frogs. You're gonna stress them out shuffling them around adding new things all the time. 
-Start culturing before you get frogs. Just with you being here you are already interested so go ahead and buy yourself some springtails and isopods and get to culturing. Start culturing flies before you get the frogs. I barely made it work by ordering producing cultures and the frogs at the same time. You don't wanna take the chance of not getting culturing down. I was lucky it all worked out. 
I was culturing isospods and springtails for years before I got my frogs. 
-Research, research, research

I'm just seeing an influx of people talking about starting 10 gallon tanks or they are posting their builds with not everything the frogs need. 
The bare minimal just isn't good enough. some of these tanks aren't even the bare minimal. These are amazing little creatures and they deserve better. Please give them better. 
The only time it should be acceptable is as a temp tank, quarantine, housing froglets, but not as permanent homes (unless using them as vert converts for small thumbnails like imitators)

Petco has dollar per gallon sales all the time and you can get a 20 long for only $20. Check craigslist, or other online listings. I even found a 2 long at a thrift store for $5.


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

Dogma I know plenty of breeders that use 10 gal tanks. Even one of the large breeder/company on here uses them. 

Just saying.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

bsr8129 said:


> Dogma I know plenty of breeders that use 10 gal tanks. Even one of the large breeder/company on here uses them.
> 
> Just saying.


Yeah but most of them use the tanks for froglets grow out though right? Or are you saying they keep all their breeding pairs in 10 gallons?
With them being a business with limited space I wouldn't harp on them too much about it since it kinda makes sense because they are breeding but it's still not a good idea. 
It's quite common for breeders of all sorts to keep animals in more confined spaces.
I don't condone this kind of thing though. Like snakes being put in racks and they never get light and don't have room
to roam around 
I couldn't do that myself. 

I have seen footage from some places where they have big tanks to house their breeders.


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

I believe that drainage layer depth is a more flexible issue, if the tank is drilled.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Jjl said:


> I believe that drainage layer depth is a more flexible issue, if the tank is drilled.


True. I still have 2 inches and mine is drilled. 
Saves me from having to drain it so often
Though some have their drains always open and just let it accumulate in a bucket.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Here are two great threads that should be looked at:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/38159-how-many-frogs-can-i-fit.html

Something that Ed constantly stresses, and something I have come to understand and agree with, is that size isn't the only factor to consider when it comes to the enclosure. A properly set up 10 gallon would be much more beneficial than an improperly set up 100 gallon tank. Of course size is a factor, but at the same time we shouldn't rehash dogma, and focus more on other factors like visual barriers, hiding places, deposition sites for certain species, and plant placement. Emulating the natural habitat of the species or morph of frog is the end goal, but oftentimes we go with what we find aesthetically pleasing, often choking out the enclosure through overplanting. 

Ultimately, there is no set or standard "minimum sized" enclosure IMO, and what it boils down to are the other often forgotten or ignored factors that are crucial for the creation of an enclosure that provides for the needs of the frog and emulates the natural habitat of said species.


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## oldnewstyle (Jan 19, 2015)

Some people's kids....breeders like this are not keeping pdfs as keepers/herpers. Company-$$$ more forced pairs per square ft = more $$$. Also supply and demand. (Not in a evil way-always, and tanks are set up properly. I know breeders on here have the frogs best interest always coming first in a company setting. Pls don't misunderstand my point) I believe dragon is referring to the idea of keeping and caring for a little piece of "wildlife" to the best of one's ability. Why get pdfs and not give it your best effort, why set up a [email protected]** petco cell when it's 
Not hard to simply do better for the animal. I assume that's what "dragon" is getting at? 

-don't these breeders advise larger than ten gallon tanks if you ask them what size tank pdfs need? Idk I'm asking

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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

jarteta97 said:


> Here are two great threads that should be looked at:
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html
> 
> ...


That is true but in most cases and the reason I posted this is I have too many improperly setup small tanks lately. 
I know mine might be under the overplanting category but there is still plenty of room and that tank is just a temp tank until I get my 20 long built. 
I think with a good amount of plants it makes them feel more secure than just having one or 2 places to hide. 
That's why not only did I mention the size but also the setups being not up to par as well.


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## gope (Jun 26, 2014)

I agree. Of course set up is important but there's only so much space in a ten gallon tank no matter how you work it. If we're talking fish tanks, a 29 would be a good benchmark imo. I'm new to frogs but I've been keeping critters for more than 50 yrs. If we're going to keep animals in boxes for our selfish pleasure the least we can do is give them some space and a suitable environment.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

oldnewstyle said:


> Some people's kids....breeders like this are not keeping pdfs as keepers/herpers. Company-$$$ more forced pairs per square ft = more $$$. Also supply and demand. (Not in a evil way-always, and tanks are set up properly. I know breeders on here have the frogs best interest always coming first in a company setting. Pls don't misunderstand my point) I believe dragon is referring to the idea of keeping and caring for a little piece of "wildlife" to the best of one's ability. Why get pdfs and not give it your best effort, why set up a [email protected]** petco cell when it's
> Not hard to simply do better for the animal. I assume that's what "dragon" is getting at?
> 
> -don't these breeders advise larger than ten gallon tanks if you ask them what size tank pdfs need? Idk I'm asking
> ...



Indeed give it the best you can give and I feel lots of people can do better than 10 gallons. it does indeed some like some of these builds just aren't done to one's full potential.
People are set on water features for 10 gallons when it just wastes space. They are set on moss when they should really be using leaf litter. 
Some aren't using drainage layers.
Some aren't using plants. 
Not using plants in the correct ways. Like putting bromeliads on the ground when they will just rot. 
It just shows they are jumping into things without doing enough research. 
They just need to be patient and do things the right way.
it's like they are wanting to set up pet store style tanks instead of making little ecosystems. 
I would have waited until my build was completely done instead of throwing 6 Azureus froglets in a 10 gallon but I couldn't pass up this amazing deal. 
I would have paid 2x, from most breeders, than what I paid if I would have waited. 
I got 2 shipments of 3 froglets for $75 shipped. 6 Azureus for $150 shipped  Damn sure couldn't pass that up.
I built a 40 gallon tank in 2 months and 4 are in there and 2 are still in the 10 gallon and I'm waiting to get to where I'm moving to start their 20 long. 
Before you call me a hypocrite lol I'm against 10 gallons as permanent homes 
I could have put all 6 in there but I wanna keep this potential pair together and also didn't want all the females bullying the male.


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## oldnewstyle (Jan 19, 2015)

I agree 110% I also think this goes for any species. I am researching still but have started gathering materials and tanks. Built a 55g terrarium before committing on pdfs. I get to tear it down and redo it (my wife not happy). Ps the thread specifically said 10 gal tanks just don't please.

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## oldnewstyle (Jan 19, 2015)

BTW love your tank

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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

oldnewstyle said:


> I agree 110% I also think this goes for any species. I am researching still but have started gathering materials and tanks. Built a 55g terrarium before committing on pdfs. I get to tear it down and redo it (my wife not happy). Ps the thread specifically said 10 gal tanks just don't please.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


Title was just for attention. My point in it's just best not to use them as permanent homes.


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## Bobthebar (Nov 8, 2015)

Another option for 10g tanks is to do what I did. Research the building style you are thinking of using in a permanent home for your frogs and attemp said building style in the 10g. Even if it doesn't turn out you will have learned tons and won't have cost much. And if it does turn out what a beautiful lil enclosure to grow and propagate plants in. Most people I think try to start with 10g tanks cuz they have them laying around. In that case the tank is free, so mess around with it and see what you can do with it. But you WILL screw up and make mistakes, take the time to make those mistakes and then start building and enclosure for real. Hopefully by that time new hobby fever will have faded a bit and you will be more realistic In your aspirations as well as have had lots of research time. But just in case research some more. And if it's starts not being fun then maybe it's not the right time for you and dart frogs.


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## alogan (Jan 7, 2013)

I have two amazingly nice set up 10 gallon tanks at the moment housing frogs that I just got. I plan on building some 20 gallon verts in the near future for them, but they seem to utilize the tanks just fine for now. I have been able to set up a canopy effect with a fern fiber background and leaf litter in the tank to increase usable space. I also have multiple bromeliads, bulbophylum, and various vine species. I understand the purpose of your post, but these tanks work out sometimes better than we expect. That being said I had 3 vanzolinis temporarily in a 10 gallon vert with an extra tank set up just in case I needed to move one and switched them to a 30 gallon hex and they love all of the space. I also have 4 Bastimentos in a 36x18x36, so I understand the importance of space to these frogs. I think a well planted and well though out 10 gallon tank can work well for a pair of thumbnails, but it isn't the ideal set up.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

And this is all based on what experience?


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## gope (Jun 26, 2014)

mydumname said:


> And this is all based on what experience?


How much experience does it take to compare the size of a frog to the size of a ten gallon tank and come to the conclusion that there isn't much room to move around?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

That's what you come up with.....


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## gope (Jun 26, 2014)

mydumname said:


> That's what you come up with.....


If you're looking for an argument keep looking. I realize that there are many very experienced people who keep and breed healthy frogs in tiny enclosures. I choose to give my animals more room.


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing a ton of people on here with ten gallon tanks.

I think the only time I've seen them used frequently is by breeders who have froglets in there.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Mavpa said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing a ton of people on here with ten gallon tanks.
> 
> I think the only time I've seen them used frequently is by breeders who have froglets in there.


I've been seeing a few posting a taking about doing a 10 gallon.
Also been seeing it in Facebook groups.
Just saw one recently with like 4 leucs and there was a couple pants but the substrate was covered all with pet store dead moss. Substrate was cocofiber.
I told the person there should be leaf litter and the person didn't know why leaf litter was needed.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

gope said:


> If you're looking for an argument keep looking. I realize that there are many very experienced people who keep and breed healthy frogs in tiny enclosures. I choose to give my animals more room.


Defensive for no reason bud. Original poster has a lot to say and I am asking what experience he is basing his what are coming off as must be methods are. Trust me, not looking to argue. I know how that goes on this forum. Simple question not being answered but I think it's clear.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

mydumname said:


> Defensive for no reason bud. Original poster has a lot to say and I am asking what experience he is basing his what are coming off as must be methods are. Trust me, not looking to argue. I know how that goes on this forum. Simple question not being answered but I think it's clear.


I'm actually chose not to reply. It's pretty common sense not to put a pair of days in a 10 gallon permanently.
There is no experience needed. Just basic common sense, empathy, and compassion.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I'm actually chose not to reply. It's pretty common sense not to put a pair of days in a 10 gallon permanently.
> There is no experience needed. Just basic common sense, empathy, and compassion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


I've kept quiet so far in reading this thread, but I think that this post might push a few people over the edge. I really don't care to involve myself further in this discussion, but I consider this to be an unreasonable (and possibly ignorant?) statement to make.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Dane said:


> I've kept quiet so far in reading this thread, but I think that this post might push a few people over the edge. I really don't care to involve myself further in this discussion, but I consider this to be an unreasonable (and possibly ignorant?) statement to make.


Saying having compassion and empathy for the frogs is ignorant?
Then I guess I'll just be happily ignorant then 

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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Saying having compassion and empathy for the frogs is ignorant?
> Then I guess I'll just be happily ignorant then
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


No, that is not the context of your post. You made a blanket statement that anyone utilizing a 10 gallon tank to house their frogs as a permanent home lacks common sense, empathy, or compassion for their animals.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Dane said:


> No, that is not the context of your post. You made a blanket statement that anyone utilizing a 10 gallon tank to house their frogs as a permanent home lacks common sense, empathy, or compassion for their animals.


He asked how do I know these things and if it was based on experience and I was saying it's based on common sense, empathy, and compassion. That was my response to his first post. 


mydumname said:


> And this is all based on what experience?


However yes it does somewhat coincide with the overall agenda of this subject matter is that people should have more common sense, empathy, and compassion than to put them in such small tanks. Let's add respect to that as well. I respect these little guys enough to give them the best that I can. 
That's just how I feel about it and MANY other enthusiasts feel the same. We should care enough for these beautiful frogs to give them the best that we can give them and I don't think a 10 gallon is the best. 
So it's not me saying they lack common sense, empathy, and compassion I'm asking them to have enough common sense, empathy, and compassion to not confine them to such a small habitat for the rest of their lives. 
So speaking of context, you took what I said out of context.

(Maybe you didn't do so intentionally, maybe it was a misunderstanding. Not trying to question or take jabs at your integrity.)


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Folks I didn't post this to spark debates or cause drama I posted this to hopefully make new people to the hobby think twice before starting with a 10 gallon. 
After doing a little thinking think it's actually best to start with a 10 gallon. Let them get the feel of building backgrounds and setting up a proper habitat. Practice is good however they should only use that tank for quarantine or for froglets from the pair and should begin to build a habitat more suited for their needs to give them plenty of room. 
I wouldn't even recommend it for quarantine since you need to be able to wash everything in the habitat. So really just a grow out tank. Something to get their feet wet. 

Why someone would question my intention or anything regarding giving frogs more room is beyond me. I thought we were all in this for the utmost well being of the frogs.
That's what this is all about. I don't even see why senior members or revered members would ever even question/debate this. Shouldn't they have compassion for the frogs more than anyone since they have been keeping them for so long?

I don't know about others but I can't bring myself to keep such beautiful frogs cooped up in such a small habitat for the remainder of their lives. 

When I first came here I did the same thing talking about 10 gallon tanks and wanting to go small and do water features and all this stuff. I wouldn't listen to people and kept debating instead of just realizing their passion for the hobby and wanting best for the frogs. I debated their knowledge which I should never have done. 
I was eventually convinced that it wasn't a good idea unless I were to build a vertical tank. 
So I built a vertical tank but I had moss in it and they said I should ditch the moss but I was reluctant and eventually I came around and put leaf litter in. Then later on down the road I refurbished the tank and put in broms and stuff since I found that to be best for thumbnails. I still took a step back because I didn't feel like I was ready and sure enough life events caused me to have to leave the tank behind. I let my impatience get in the way of the frogs' overall well being. 
I just think too many are just jumping the gun instead of just waiting it out and do things right then get the frogs. 
Sure we can't all afford big tanks but if they are having such financial issues that you can't give a frog a bigger tank than 10 gallons then maybe this isn't the hobby for them to begin with.
Maybe I could have worded it better but my intentions for this thread is nothing but good and to have people debate this just feels so wrong. 
Shouldn't we all want what's best for the amazing frogs?
That's really a rhetorical question but you can answer if you'd like. Though I'm not trying to have debates with people who question this. Sure it's their right and I shall not infringe on that right. Though I would just think the respect and admiration we all have for these frogs would be enough not to even question this. 
So feel free but I have said how I feel about this matter and I'm not gonna debate housing these frogs in a 10 gallon tank for the rest of their lives. 
That's why I didn't reply to mydumname. Mostly to not spark a debate to begin with lol. There is nothing to debate here. We all know they need something bigger than a 10 gallon. They deserve something bigger than a 10 gallon.


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## in2Diy (Dec 15, 2014)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> He asked how do I know these things and if it was based on experience and I was saying it's based on common sense, empathy, and compassion. That was my response to his first post.
> 
> 
> However yes it does somewhat coincide with the overall agenda of this subject matter is that people should have more common sense, empathy, and compassion than to put them in such small tanks. Let's add respect to that as well. I respect these little guys enough to give them the best that I can.
> ...


At the end of the day you're keeping an animal that is used to having thousands of square feet to explore in a glass box, there are frogs that adapt well to the confines of a 10g tank and others that require far far bigger enclosures but don't ever forget they are still enclosed and basically jailed. So you judging other hobbyists especially new ones for using a slightly smaller glass box than you agree with is hypocrisy. I understand we give them everything we can but we can't be delusional here and assume an extra square foot means jack to these beautiful animals. 

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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

The problem with this whole thing is that you are making assumptions that are based on nothing more than your own anthropomorphization of the frogs. 

The worst part is that you are then trying to shame people with statements like this:


> anything regarding giving frogs more room is beyond me. I thought we were all in this for the utmost well being of the frogs.
> That's what this is all about. I don't even see why senior members or revered members would ever even question/debate this. Shouldn't they have compassion for the frogs more than anyone since they have been keeping them for so long?


You're inventing this false equivalence of "if you put your frogs in small tanks, you don't care about them" which is ridiculous. 

The real irony of it all is that you're criticizing someone that takes great care of his frogs and provides them all with plenty of space. He just also happens to actually have the experience to know that you can keep them in much less. 

Patronizing and condescending threads like this are why a lot of old timers with real experience don't bother with this forum anymore... It's a shame and we need to be taking a different approach to actually help new members and also not alienate more experienced hobbyists. This thread is now closed.


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