# Adding Carrot Flakes to FF media



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I'm thinking of adding dried carrot flakes to my potato flake based FF media. I know they are high in vitamin A which in large amounts can be toxic to amphibians but I was planning to dilute 5 to 1 with potato flake so 5 pounds carrot to 20 pounds potato. Is it not worth the risk (Ed) ?

Thanks,
Robb


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I have been adding carrot powder to my fruit fly mix for a long time.

Remember: Carrots and sweet potato are orange because of Beta carotene, which is a non toxic form of Vitamin A.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is little if any risk because as Doug noted, the source of vitamin A in the carrots is due to alpha and beta carotene. 

Just a little clarification here... carotenes (there are several different ones) are not vitamin A.. Vitamin A is retinol which in excess or out of balance with other vitamins can cause nutritional issues. Carotenes are a group of several carotenoids that can be converted to retinol by animals (typical assumed conversion rates to retinol are 6:1 for beta carotene and 12:1 for other convertible carotenoids) as needed. Carotenes (and particuarly beta carotene) are rated in units of vitamin A activity but are non-toxic in excess unlike retinol. 

If you are looking to supplement carotenoids to the flies then spirulina maybe a cheaper additive. If you are looking for color supplementing then most dusts contain a lot of beta carotene. 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I have tried spirulina before, and one must not add too much or (at least for me) the flies do not produce as well.

Adding V8 splash tropical juice has given me high production. The maggots will turn a bright orange.

However, I believe they also add Vitamin A acetate (other than the natural amount of Beta carotene) so not sure if frogs could overdose.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Looking on thier website I cannot find any retinol in the analysis and they list beta carotene as the source of vitamin A. The red color is due in at least part to flavenoids from beets. These do not have any function as a color agent in frogs (unless you soak them in it to try and dye them) or as a previtamin A source but it will make the maggots orange (there are yellow/orange beets). 

While the jury is still out on the amount you can modify the carotenoid content of ffs (or at least sufficient enough to meet the frogs needs), if you are primarily attempting add beta carotene, keep in mind that this is the primary source of vitamin A in most dusting supplements on the market. 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've only really bothered with the idea of modifying the media in the case of feeding out the larvae... which unlike the adult flies, seem to actually be gut loadable... Ed, your opinion on this? My melanogaster media is Ed's enhanced... I've played with the idea of adding Naturose to it, and adding spirulina and naturose to my hydei mixes for the cultures I do for larvae... The nasty purple media would make it clear to me what the uses were for what culture


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Corey,

There is some literature out there that indicates that even insects that are feeding on vegetation are poor sources of carotenoids and thus vitamin A. There are carotenoids in the eyes of the adult fruit flies as they use them as part of the visual system, now whether the addition of more carotenoids (or different ones) increases the amount (and ffs will grow and transform without carotenoids or vitamin A) is the real question. 

So there really isn't any harm in adding it to the media but we probably are not having a lot of effect on the adult flies (other than making them able to see better...) but the larva are another story. You could add naturose to the maggots and color feed the adult frogs on them. 

I add about a tablespoon of spirulina and some old fruit to every 4 cups or so of my media (modified carolina) to make sure the ffs have enough to support thier need for carotenoids (many commecial medias lack it) and because every few weeks or so I let the frogs clean out some older cultures of the larva. (I'm not working with anything at home right now that needs color feeding (at least in frogs)). This way I'm feeding out a healthier ff which should be a healthier food item... 

Ed


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

I have added paprika to my fly mix in the past, and can say that it does change the color of the adult flies. I also noticed an increase in the orange color of my yellow/orange frogs.


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## IN2DEEP (Aug 7, 2007)

Naturose says it improves the color of blue discus fish. What about my blue frogs? Naturose's magic ingrediant is astaxanthin. I got 4 mg softgels of astaxanthin from health food store and made 2 cultures from 1 softgel. (The stuff isn't water soluable, but mixed evenly in the media.) The ff magots are orange and the ff adult has a gut loaded orange belly and the production rates are unaffected/possibly boosted. The astaxanthin cultures are next in rotation. What would the symptoms of overdose be, besides death? (Ed, you have an opinion of my experimentation?)


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## IN2DEEP (Aug 7, 2007)

Whoops, I just read some archives. Blues can't benefit from supplimentation and extra beta carotene is excreted. I just made orange ff cultures and ff's with "superman" sight that will make orange poop.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Homer,

The increase in orange/yellows would be expected with paprika as it also contains beta carotene. The red carotenoids in paprika are not as well absorbed due to thier configuration (they are known as polar carotenoids, I posted a link somewhere in the archives on this) which is why astaxanthin works better for reds. 

IN2DEEP,

I have doubts that it does anything for blue in discus as the color blue in fish is also due to reflections of blue light via crystals in iridiopores (but they'll often hype anything). 

If you look further into the archives there was at least one discussion with some citations that has some of the symptoms from astaxanthin and canthaxanthin. Astaxanthin has not been shown to cause liver damage to date in the studied animals but has been shown to trigger the release of cholesterol from the liver (remember not all cholesterol is "bad"). 
But we don't have any way to monitor the frogs for these types of symptoms as the blood volume that can be obtained is too small for testing as you would need it over the course of hours/days. 

Ed


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Ed said:


> Hi Homer,
> 
> The increase in orange/yellows would be expected with paprika as it also contains beta carotene. The red carotenoids in paprika are not as well absorbed due to thier configuration (they are known as polar carotenoids, I posted a link somewhere in the archives on this) which is why astaxanthin works better for reds.
> 
> . . . . Ed


Thanks, Ed. I added paprika to my FF media precisely because it does contain beta carotene. My comment was simply a personal observation aimed more toward your initial comment about the jury being out about supplementing FF with beta carotene . . . not as conclusive data, but just as personal experience, which seemed cogent to Robb's inquiry about carrots and offering another alternative.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Homer,

I had to make the comment due to the number of people who try to utilize paprika for reds with little to no effect. 

Even insects that consume plants are fairly poor sources of carotenoids (I can post that paper again if necessary, but it should also be in the archives somewhere) and if there is something depleting the carotenoids (like egg production) then the levels in the animal's bodies decline (this even occurs in chickens as stored carotenoids (like lutein and beta carotene) are depeleted for egg production in laying hens even to the point where thier skin color lightens). We already get around this to some extent due to how the vitamin A in the supplements is supplied as beta carotene. The amount supplied in this fashion depends on the supplement, the dusting routine and the of course the item being dusted with small insects like ffs retaining proportionally more than larger insects. So to some extent we should be looking at other carotenoids if we are looking to supplement the frogs as the diet already tends to contain beta carotene from at least one source. (this is the thought tract that originally led me to astaxanthin after rejecting several other readily available carotenoids for various reasons) but I digress.. 
Adding carotenoids to the media to gut load the adult flies makes me hesitant based on the other data and the coloration of the abdominal region could be due to staining from the carotenoid (I would feel better if someone checked it out via a microscope), but we also have to consider that the flies may have a rapid gut transit time which limits the adult flies viable period of being gutloaded. (This appears to be variable depending on a number of factors in the literature). 

Enough rambling on this topic for the moment. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I love the discussion but it always makes me wonder wouldnt it be 'better' to just simply mortar and pestle the carrot flakes, spirulina, paprika, naturose, ect ect and add as a dusting powder?

I too have noticed I can really slow ff production with too much 'stuff' added to media as experimentation, esp spirulina, and since the actual 
benefits to the frogs (unless we are feeding larvae regularly- which I am not simply b/c it is an extra step that I dont wish to take) is in question by feeding ff's from enhanced media.

? :? ?

S


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The observed decreases in production when different items are added to the media are not surprising given that changes in the protien level can increase demand for different vitamins and if these vitamins are then not in sufficient quantity growth (and therefore production) is changed. (see http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/77/3/355.pdf for some discussion)

Ed


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

sports_doc said:


> I love the discussion but it always makes me wonder wouldnt it be 'better' to just simply mortar and pestle the carrot flakes, spirulina, paprika, naturose, ect ect and add as a dusting powder?


I use spirulina as a dusting powder in addition to the naturose, repcal, & herptivite, good results in my frogs yellows and oranges so far..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

So should we have a ad hoc nutrition discussion friday night at the bar? 

Ed


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Either that or we start talking clay with Matt!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I think the two are linked.... 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

As long as there is beer, I'm there. Too bad I couldn't get the shirt ideas done for this weekend  There were a couple of them... probably the most fun were the ones based around the idea that I was dirty :lol:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cough, cough, cough.... I have multiple straight lines trying to get out..... 

I think I'll tell Rich at Black Jungle about that one..... 

Ed


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