# Kero's Hind Legs paralyzed during mornings



## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

Hello,

My girlfriend and I got a pair of White's tree frogs about a month ago (frogs are a couple months old). lately one of them has been quite lethargic and seems to freeze up occasionally during the day. Their hind legs start spasming and they cant seem to move at all if if they get flipped over on accident (almost drowned in the water dish because Kero couldn't flip himself over). We've been trying better to make sure they get proper nutrients lately (gut loaded crickets dusted with Repti-CA with D3 almost everyday) and after this first spasms he seemed ok for a week. However, today and yesterday Kero has seized 2 days in a row. He gets a little more active during nighttime and he does seem to eat a little bit when the lights go out, but I can't seem to figure out the source of these spasms. I've tried warm and/or honey water baths and they seemed to have helped a little bit but I was hoping to get some extra input as to what could be going on. Our local exotic pet store's reptile guy said to try to get him active by having him hunt food but we've only been tong feeding so far (average 3 med size crickets every day, Keros gone down to 3 small crickets)We wash our hands with still water and only put still water in their dish, the tanks at 80deg during the day 70ish at night, humid fluxes 70 to 40 (hand spray). we have both a basking (60 W)and UVB lights. the other frog seems perfectly health so far. I haven't seen any extreme redness on their hind legs so I feel like I can rule out Red leg infection.


side note:
-the blue dish was only to give Kero a lukewarm bath. they have a bigger water dish inside the tank
-He seems bloated in one of those pictures but that bulge on his left side disappeared in a couple seconds
-I call Kero a he only because he was named after a male character. I'm not sure how frogs are sexed


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

He should go a vet. 
An ARAV vet in your area.

Please watch it with unmeasured by temperature lukewarm baths. What is lukewarm to your touch may be to warm for an enforced soak. 

I hesitate to recommend a temperature for an enforced soak with a seizing frog in this format. But oh gosh.. 75 degrees is a nice neutral temperature. 

Sometimes when frogs are sick they can absorb too much water if soaked too enthusiastically.

I know nothing of these Honey Soaks for everything that ails WTF, on WTF hobby forums but it seems to have a dangerous metabolic unbalance of potential.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Can you take a pic of the environment?


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

Kmc said:


> Can you take a pic of the environment?


we use a coconut husk substrate with dried moss and some fake plants. there also a big log that sits vertically for them to climb but i took it out for the sake of keeping an eye on him.
He just starting seizing again and it almost looks like his front legs are freezing as well this time


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Ah ok its come in. 

It would be good to remove the coconut shell from his floor and replace with dampened, not wet, paper towels.

Having loose sub and decorative moss sticking and drying on a mobility impaired frog is a stressor. If he grabs live insects on the material it can form an obstruction along with the chitin of the insects and press against nerves in the lower spine. A note.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

He needs immediate veterinary care.


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

he gets fed by tongs so I don't think he has eaten any moss through insects as far as I know. Unfortunately the only reptile/amphibian vet near me is in another city and they could only book me in for several weeks from now...


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

Kmc said:


> Ah ok its come in.
> 
> It would be good to remove the coconut shell from his floor and replace with dampened, not wet, paper towels.
> 
> Having loose sub and decorative moss sticking and drying on a mobility impaired frog is a stressor. If he grabs live insects on the material it can form an obstruction along with the chitin of the insects and press against nerves in the lower spine. A note.


I've taken out all the moss and set a paper towel foundation. I've read from other frog owners and blogs to try fast him and give some belly massages. his legs did get a bit better after a little rub and a lukewarm soak (almost like shallow pool in summer temp). and his legs seem to be better for the time being. Would feeding him some worms/low chitin diet be ok in the mean time, or should I stick to fasting him for a day or so if at all? Sorry for the constant spamming, He's my first frog and I've been terrified ever since he started declining


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Im not saying chitin is a problem for your frog.

Eating coco fiber with feeder insects can a problem. Frogs have evolved to pass chitin. Coconut husk can complicate the normal passage of the indigestible chitin. Chitin isnt digested. It passes through. Like hair and nails pass through snake gut.

The most common reason for tremors, and flaccid limbs are hypocalcemic disorders but that may not be whats up.

Seizing can indicate an injury, exposure to a poision, a period of over heating, lots of serious problems can cause seizing.

You need to get the frog to the vet, and keep him at rest.

The bulge is highly irregular. 

He isnt skinny. Hes been fed well and frequently. Hes in no danger of starving.

Have you looked into vets in your area?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Stop massaging him please. He could be injured or have an injurious piece of material inside of him.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

If you cant find a vet that treats frogs - if its impossible go to a Bird one that is willing to see him. They could at least do an x ray. Its better if he hasnt eaten Easier to make things out per imaging


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Take a photo of the lights you use.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

I'm sorry you're going through this with your frog.

This is unfortunately a situation where there's not a lot we can suggest to you, this is a serious medical condition from an unknown cause. It's hard to advise doing anything without seeing a vet for at least some diagnostics. Your options are essentially to set up an enclosure with optimum husbandry parameters for the species, put him inside, and hope he recovers on his own (this is something forum members can potentially help with), or see a veterinarian for an exam/diagnostics and see if there is a treatment option to move forward (this is the better option but not something forum members can help with).

Interventions like force feeding, baths, or belly massages might seem like a good idea initially because then you're doing _something_ but since we don't know what the problem is they could also hurt him and make the situation worse. If he is still able to move around and choose to soak when he wants to soak and seek a temperature he wants to be in I would stop manipulating him at all. I don't think there is a good reason to be treating him at all if you do not have any idea what the problem is - that's why veterinary care is required.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

My recommendation would be to set up a hospital enclosure like KMC recommended above, make sure you have a working thermometer (+/- a hygrometer), keep his cage and water bowl clean and provide cover and then be as hands off as possible. Also, if you have any intention to see a vet, make an appointment as soon as possible, ideally through an urgent care or emergency that sees exotics.


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

Kmc said:


> Take a photo of the lights you use.


The UVB was installed after his first set of leg spasms at the reccomendation of the reptile guy at the pet shop. My temp. Readings were also off it is around 70 to 75 at night time and 80 at day (the thermostat is on the other side of the enclosure from the heat sources (lights)


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The 5.0 compact in the dome isnt ideal strategy. It should be positioned laterally with structure beneath for the frog to get within a useful range. There are same brand hoods available to use or you can take the dome off a clip lamp and work with the joint to turn it sideways just above the screen. Always secure clip lamp clamps and arm with zipties or hardware.

In 6 months you should replace with the tubular version and a florescent fixture.

Dont feel confused, ease of marketing recommendation and product often is at odds with actual husbandry optimum use methods. Dr Francis Baines UVB website will help you further.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

While I think there is evidence to suggest UVB is beneficial to some tree frogs, it certainly is not going to make or break this situation.

I would suggest it may be experiencing a Vitamin A deficiency. I can see your supplements in one of your photos. I would suggest tossing that and:

1. Switch your primary supplement to Repashy Calcium Plus
2. Get a small bottle of Repashy Vitamin A and use this for the next couple of feedings (it sounds like he is eating). Give it to both your frogs. After that, dose it once a week a couple more weeks if you are seeing improvement, using the Calcium Plus on every other feeding other than that one. After that, the Repashy Calcium Plus will have enough Vit A to maintain proper levels.
3. Also use Repashy Supervite every couple of weeks/once a month mixed in with your Calcium Plus.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Kero's ppl, (cant scroll up, skippy)...

The lighting, supplement and environment advice being given are corrective _husbandry changes._

Not a substitute for veterinary treatment.


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

We'll be contacting a vet as soon as theyr3e open on monday and we'll just keep en eye on him in the meantime. I'll post an update after a call with the vet. Thanks for the tip everyone.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I usually put thermostat probes on the high temp zone. As Im wanting to control the warmest effect. 

The cooler aspect of the environment is subjugated to the warmer output and also the ambient of the room. 

Glass gives heat away. In insulated enclosures, either by caging material type or interior build stuff, temperature zones are easier to target and less subjective to the ambient. An insulated env also allows for significantly lower wattages to be used to attain target temps and there is not the immediate blasting off of moisture from misting which, for whites who are not a high humidity frog, still has importance. 
I see alot of whites environments that go too arid, too cool, and too drastic in effect all in the same day/night.

Im not saying that is what is happening with your frog. Just covering some bases here given it all works together.

Im curious what the frog ate to cause such a bulge in his stomach. If it ate a meal that wasnt capable of creating such a visually apparent bulge than it makes one wonder if there is something else going on "nearby" that would cause such a meal bulge.

I had a new man up in the dept that liked to Power Feed things on my days off. He liked to see guys eat. He gave too many days old pinkys to all the baby whites thinking that i wouldnt be able to tell. But it was easy to even see, feel their heads, legs through the skin. They all digested them fine but feeding for fun can be problematic. Not saying thats what happened with you at all. Clarifying. 

Whats more important is writing down accurate history for the vet. Take vid of seizing if it happens again. Presentations can change in even a days time. It all can help.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

My phone is jumpy and so is my posting opportunity so ugh not to "spam" but glass enclosures without interior builds of foam, cork walls etc, can be neatly insulated for its thermal benifets with panels applied on the outside glass of many easy to find material. Cut outs for uth on the walls can create a really nice heating strategy, that is easy to control and better than relying on heat lamps


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

Kmc said:


> I usually put thermostat probes on the high temp zone. As Im wanting to control the warmest effect.
> 
> The cooler aspect of the environment is subjugated to the warmer output and also the ambient of the room.
> 
> ...


Our 2nd frog is doing perfectly well and they both get fed around 3 small to med dusted crickets (about half inch long at most) everyday at night time. For a while our crickets werent gut loaded so they were eating empty vessels but we've been feeding the crickets a variety of foods. I dont think I can post mp4 files on the forums but I do have a couple videos of him freezing up in my phone.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Jkim1022 said:


> Our 2nd frog is doing perfectly well and they both get fed around 3 small to med dusted crickets (about half inch long at most) everyday at night time. For a while our crickets werent gut loaded so they were eating empty vessels but we've been feeding the crickets a variety of foods. I dont think I can post mp4 files on the forums but I do have a couple videos of him freezing up in my phone.


Gut loading doesn't replace the need for proper supplementation. I'm still pretty sure you can probably tie back the condition to a lack of vitamin A.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

On my lap top with a stable view, the bulge on your frog looks very serious. 

It looks like a swelling, or fluid. It is a acute issue and needs seen as soon as possible.


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

Just got off the phone with the closest exotic vet and the earliest they can get me in is next Monday :/ We'll try to maintain optimal husbandry conditions until that time i suppose. we did get some multivitamins to give them for the time being.


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## Enaykudisi (Dec 6, 2020)

I didn't necessarily see this suggested, and maybe I'm mistaken, but amphibian Ringer's solution _may_ benefit some over simply distilled/RO water. Or at least reduce the (small) risks that come with over-soaking. Josh's frogs has a mix solution

Merck Manual actually had a bit on low calcium in frogs
"Except for earthworms, most invertebrates used as food have an inverse calcium: phosphorus ratio. This results in mandibular deformity, long bone fracture, scoliosis, and eventually *tetany and bloating*." Which might address that bulge as well? A soak of Calcium gluconate 2.5% for an hour or 2 daily might help. (and as it might be tempting to overload this, I wouldn't recommend a higher amount in the soak because a sudden very high jump in blood calcium can be fatal. Unless you see higher amounts being used safely, 2.5 is just what I've seen)

Also, be sure your uvb is at the right distance. it's useless if it's too far from the frogs.
The muscle issues seem to be a later sign of more serious low cal, so the other frog might just not be quite there yet. You could look to see if there's any twitching in the feet after a lot of activity


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## Enaykudisi (Dec 6, 2020)

One more thing, if it is low calcium, it will take a while of diet and husbandry changes to really correct it. Don't expect anything to change overnight. If it is as serious as it seems to be, it could take 2-3 weeks of high calcium and vit D to see real changes. The vet might give a shot of cal and/or D which would speed things up some.
Have you considered feeding dusted Black soldier fly larvae? they're a little fattier than crickets, but (going off human physiology soo it could def be false) the added fat might help with the absorption of fat-soluble vitamins like D and A


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

There is alot of sound information here but no real diagnosis. 

There cannot be without Veterinary in hand care. 

There can be conditions that an increase in renal "work" could be fatal. Upping supplementation without knowledge of an acute problem, acute enough to disable motility and cause spasms and severe dynamic (changing) edema can hasten demise. 

Please get to a vet.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Simply put; The Lack of an animals ability to right itself constitutes a need for emergency veterinary care.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

I am in agreement with KMC - the issue is there are literally dozens of things that could cause these signs, many with treatments that will be harmful if you don't know what you're treating. You can focus on husbandry and supportive care but I wouldn't start doing random treatments. 

I wouldn't use DI water or an electrolyte solution. I personally just use dechlorinated tap water. If you live in an area with lower quality tap water maybe some other forum members have a suggestion.

Is he still moving around in the cage? Is he eating? Does it seem like he's getting better, worse, or staying the same?


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

connorology said:


> I am in agreement with KMC - the issue is there are literally dozens of things that could cause these signs, many with treatments that will be harmful if you don't know what you're treating. You can focus on husbandry and supportive care but I wouldn't start doing random treatments.
> 
> I wouldn't use DI water or an electrolyte solution. I personally just use dechlorinated tap water. If you live in an area with lower quality tap water maybe some other forum members have a suggestion.
> 
> Is he still moving around in the cage? Is he eating? Does it seem like he's getting better, worse, or staying the same?


He is still moving around the cage occasionally and he had been eating until the past few days. We fed him manual for the past 2 days with tongs and a credit card by the suggestion of the reptile specialist at the exotic pet store. Hes been eating vitamin dusted crickets instead of just calcium and he hasnt had a spasm in the past 36 hour! Still lethargic but its a step up from freezing completely. During the day he is quite still but its currently 1am where I live and he is moving about a decent bit.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Any pics of him recovering? That would be nice to see. How is the other frog look? It would be nice to see him too


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I wanna know what those vitamins are! A few crickets dusted over a single weekend curing seizing paralysis ..wow!


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## Enaykudisi (Dec 6, 2020)

Jkim1022 said:


> He is still moving around the cage occasionally and he had been eating until the past few days. We fed him manual for the past 2 days with tongs and a credit card by the suggestion of the reptile specialist at the exotic pet store. Hes been eating vitamin dusted crickets instead of just calcium and he hasnt had a spasm in the past 36 hour! Still lethargic but its a step up from freezing completely. During the day he is quite still but its currently 1am where I live and he is moving about a decent bit.


Glad to hear he's doing better! please keep us updated! I would also love to hear the details of what changes you've made 
I should've asked before if he's poopin ok?


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

Kmc said:


> Any pics of him recovering? That would be nice




















The one on my hand is kero and the other is hershey. He is a bit shy and doesn't like to be handled as much as kero who seems like he does enjoy grabbing on to our hands


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

Kmc said:


> I wanna know what those vitamins are! A few crickets dusted over a single weekend curing seizing paralysis ..wow!











Im not sure if a a day of a vitamin would fix seizures but this was what the reptile guy reccomended me. Said its also got d3 and calcium so we can replace our old calcium dust and feed it to him daily for now


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

[QQUOTE="Enaykudisi, post: 3129315, member: 128317"]
Glad to hear he's doing better! please keep us updated! I would also love to hear the details of what changes you've made 
I should've asked before if he's poopin ok?
[/QUOTE]
We've replaced all moss with damp paper towels, tried to mist a lot more frequently to raise humidity by another 10 or so on average, and started him on reptivite vitamin supplements. Its a bit hard to figure put who is pooping and who isn't between the 2, but seeing as I've seen 2 fresh pieces within 12 hours (at which they weren't fed) , I'm assuming he did pass one of them.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Though most of us here prefer Repashy products, ZooMed Reptivite is acceptable. Basic calcium w/D3 is simply not sufficient for insectivores -- contrary to labeling misinformation, it is only suited at all for herbivores (and really, even herbivores would benefit from a comprehensive supplement).


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Well, it very good news and I believe this points to some other mishap causing the alarming symptoms, and not a vitamin deficiency per se. Oral supplementation cannot have that effect in that time frame.

An important note, if you really must handle your guys, never walk with them, and always be sitting down.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

A Whites came to the vet (one of very few exotics practices at the time, before ARAV) with flaccid disuse of rear leg. Diagnosis per Doc was an arterial obstruction, a blood clot. The leg was amputated at the pelvis and the frog made a complete recovery. It was rehoused with its other cagemates and reported having no difficulties keeping up with feeding and locomoting. 

I remember being aware that the frog, before its surgery was in a great deal of pain. I held the frog in my hand in the while Cathy prepared the incubator for an amphibian patient. The Doc, a scary guy, who was extremely strict and moody (we all had a whispered code "hey..whats the weather like today?...when we came on shift) 
In his spare verbal way he made it clear he wanted me to continue holding the frog instead of returning it to the plastic case. Perhaps it was the warmth of my hand but, i could feel the tension of his little body dissipate. 

I dont handle my Whites. When ive had to remove them or pluck a speck of NZM out of a nostril etc, they push my fingers away strenuously like balking toddlers. But, in cases of having to treat animals if something unfortunately happens i think there might be merit in a stress reductive way, in not having them be complete, feral strangers to the human hand. Just a thought. 
Its very important to let them access their hab resources and live an undisturbed life. When out of their environment its good to remember that they cant process input like domestic pets. They can be stressed without recognizable signs.


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## Jkim1022 (May 8, 2021)

Update:
Its been 5 days since the vet and We've made some adjustments based on the vet's reccomendation. He ruled out infections and obstructions and believes Kero has low sugars/nutrients and could use a warmer habitat. We've started giving him some wax worms and got a heating pad to raise the temp to 80-82 during the day. He also told us to do a honey bath once a week to help with his sugars which did seem to help on the day he got them (Kero would actually hop more afterwards).Seizures are still happening but we have follow up appointments booked and hope to see some change to his health soon. Thanks everyone


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## Enaykudisi (Dec 6, 2020)

Jkim1022 said:


> Update:
> Its been 5 days since the vet and We've made some adjustments based on the vet's reccomendation. He ruled out infections and obstructions and believes Kero has low sugars/nutrients and could use a warmer habitat. We've started giving him some wax worms and got a heating pad to raise the temp to 80-82 during the day. He also told us to do a honey bath once a week to help with his sugars which did seem to help on the day he got them (Kero would actually hop more afterwards).Seizures are still happening but we have follow up appointments booked and hope to see some change to his health soon. Thanks everyone


It's soo good to hear how he's doing! Glad it's nothing too serious. Thanks for the update


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Hmm this is really interesting and I would like to learn more. Amphibians as a class normally have lowest blood sugar levels of all chordates. I am fascinated to know more about the role of simple sugars in correcting this kind of issue.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

There are transport mechanisms, under the radar of usual discussion, so im being sincere. I do have concerns with honey becoming more of the internet sensation than it is, admittedly, but I have an open mind.


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