# I am going to Europe what frogs should I bring back...



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Okay Dendroboard.

Last time I visited Josh as Josh's frogs I asked him a question about what kind of frogs he would want from europe when I go back. (I dont remember what he said but I will get a list from him before I go back to Germany.)

And this has made me think... Well If I do this for Josh, I may as well do this for the Hobby.

So I would like for YOU to compile a list for ME. As to what frogs are in Europe that you would like to see here in America. And I believe my efforts will be sucessful in brining these frogs back. And here is why I believe they will be.

I am in the ARMY 
(this is enough reason why my efforts will be sucessful... IMO )
So when I go back to Germany it will be for a while 3 or 4 years... I am going to obviously stay in this hobby while I am there and buy dart frogs while I am there and raise them. I will breed them and make sure I have Males and Females alike for all the frogs so I will maintain proven pair's. I will have to get all the paperwork ect... In order to Import them back when I go on leave (back to michigan to visit my mom) I understand this will cost money. And No doubt I will add that to the price when I sell them to YOU ALL here on dendroboard (I work for the army not a fortune 500 company) But I dont plan on making money on these frogs... Just a little for my trouble to cover the expense But they will be proven pair's YOU can breed and sell to recover the money for purchasing these frogs.

I DO plan on making this happen. The wife is in agreement with me so and am 99.9987% positive this WILL happen when I return to europe.

What I want from YOU here on dendroboard. Is for SERIOUS HOBBYIST who are established in the hobby with alot of experiance and knowledge who will beable to care for the frogs to compile a list for me.

If the first run with me importing turns sucessful I will do it again 3 or 4 more times when I take leave. each year. So it is important I get a good list here establish that I can use for my reference when I am in europe.

Please take this list serious. Because there is nothing I have not done when I said I will do it. I am a DO'er not a Think'er. So again I ask for this list to be taken seriously. And please don't put a frog on this list that maybe questionable for the legality here in America.


----------



## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

I think most people would want to see you get the import/export permits before they start drooling over frogs. A lot of the frogs available in Europe that are very rare are in the US already. They're never really offered publicly for sale. Frogs like mysteriosus that are in Europe are (from what I remember) illegal in the US period.

Also, in most discussions about smuggling, Eurasia is a major 'frog laundering' center where frogs are given shady paperwork and sold as legal CB animals.

Do you have any experience in keeping 'expert only' type frogs? Also, if you are still in a deployable unit would your wife/a friend be able to adequately care for frogs while you are gone?


----------



## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

It doesn't matter how much money you have - if you cannot supply CITES documents for the frogs you acquire in Europe, then you won't be able to import them to the US legally.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm sure if you're intent on doing this you'll have success through back door deals.... But I think it'll be hard to gain support for this publicly. Not all frogs in Germany are illegal, but most of the frogs in Germany that are rare in the US are. You'd be able to find frogs like captivus and mysteriosus and histrionicus and sylvaticus in Germany, but the former two are undoubtedly illegal and the latter two have a high probability of being illegal. If you want to do this, the public will likely ask you to obtain the proper import/export paperwork on the parent frogs.


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Okay everyone talking about the legal issue's and the proper paper OKAY. Thats my deal and I understand all your concerns. I am going to get proper paper work to do this. So let's please no turn this post into a what is and what is not legal because I am going to research and take the proper steps in order to do this. I will not be going to europe on vacation. I will be living there and will have enough time to get the paperwork in order...

I know some of the frogs are without a doubt illegal in the US. these are no the frogs I will be planning to bring back. I do however plan on brining back one's that are rare here in the US and can be legally kept here...

I am asking for a list to get me started on what to bring back according to the wishes of YOU (dendroboard) so if your a cool frog keeper and you would like to add a frog that they have in europe that is rare here. I am giving you this opportunity in the future. 

So lets not get into the legal side. I am doing this for YOU the hobby. so just start listing them. And I will compile the list on what frogs are being requested the most. I will find out if they are legal to bring back. And then I will start a poll and let EVERYONE vote on what one I will bring first....


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

If during this process I can find a way to have these two frogs here in the US legally (captivus and mysteriosus)(Highly doubtful as i researched it already...but google can be wrong too) i will bring them as I would like to have them as well... But if i cannot bring them back legally I wont. My career is more important to me than owning these frogs (I may own them for the while I am in germany though  and trust me I will flaunt them off to you all while I am there to make you jealous )


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Just get the paperwork to do it all legit. Our hobby already has too much interest in going about things the easy or illegal ways not to mention we need to hold a higher standard in order to guarentee our hobby's future. Do it right and set an example. Army or not you need legal papers in order to benefit this hobby with new frogs.

Michael


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

So take this opportunity to tell me about a frog that is in europe but rare here you would like to add to your collection.


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Nicholas said:


> My career is more important to me than owning these frogs


You must not have read this part... poison beauties


----------



## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

When is this taking place? Approximately? What's the status on the harlequinn toads over in Europe? 



Alex


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

yours said:


> When is this taking place? Approximately? What's the status on the harlequinn toads over in Europe?
> Alex


Currently I am stationed here in Michigan. I will be leaving this duty assignment in 1 and a half years and I will be going to Germany. So to give you a approximate time would be the first group of frogs i will be brining back will be in 2 to 2 1/2 years. then again one year after that, and a year after that and a year after that untill i leave europe.

Dont let the time issue turn you off. It takes a while to get the permitts and all the legal paper work ect... But regaurdless I will be brining frogs back for my own personal collection. So regaurdless the situation weather YOU (dendroboard) participate in my "venture" or not I will being going threw this legal process anyways....

I have no idea about the status on the harlequinn toads in Europe. My hobby is limited to dart frogs nothing else.... I dont even know what that thing is... got a picture ?


----------



## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

poison beauties said:


> Just get the paperwork to do it all legit. Our hobby already has too much interest in going about things the easy or illegal ways not to mention we need to hold a higher standard in order to guarentee our hobby's future. Do it right and set an example. Army or not you need legal papers in order to benefit this hobby with new frogs.
> 
> Michael


I am not sure if you read above but he has stated he will get the paperwork. And as he has stated if he can't do it legally he won't. Can we all just get past that part and give the man what he wants? He just wants some ideas on people's wishlist for LEGAL rarer frogs he could bring back.


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

tachikoma said:


> I am not sure if you read above but he has stated he will get the paperwork. And as he has stated if he can't do it legally he won't. Can we all just get past that part and give the man what he wants? He just wants some ideas on people's wishlist for LEGAL rarer frogs he could bring back.


Thank you.

Now I am patiently waiting for some frog names to pop up!!!


----------



## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

Two yeas is a ling time away. Nobody could tell you will or won't be in the US. I think you will get more responses once you are there and know what is available


----------



## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Here's the thing, anything you would plan to legally bring over is already here, or will soon be here. As the established importers who are crazy enough to go through the whole process will tell you, the cost, versus the mortality, versus the in states shipping, is pretty much not worth the hassle. but hey, good luck.


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

stemcellular said:


> Here's the thing, anything you would plan to legally bring over is already here, or will soon be here. As the established importers who are crazy enough to go through the whole process will tell you, the cost, versus the mortality, versus the in states shipping, is pretty much not worth the hassle. but hey, good luck.


Good info... 
Question: Are they shipping them or are they personally flying back with them? (because I will only be bringing them back when I come back for vacation) And I dont plan on shipping them in states... I would be flying them back then letting them chill for a week or so untill I send them off to there rightfull owners... would this process be different then a import export buisness.... I will be trying to pretty my hand carry these frogs. I think importers are just having them shipped.

maybe I am wrong?


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Nicholas said:


> You must not have read this part... poison beauties


I could not have, You posted it at the same time I was typing up my responce. 



tachikoma said:


> I am not sure if you read above but he has stated he will get the paperwork. And as he has stated if he can't do it legally he won't. Can we all just get past that part and give the man what he wants? He just wants some ideas on people's wishlist for LEGAL rarer frogs he could bring back.


Once again he was posting it up while I was responding, check the times before you fault me for this.

The fact is your talking long term and I can guarentee you that many of the frogs people want will likely be here by then. Fads change as well and if your planning to get the paperwork to bring back your own stuff well good for you but the importers who have buisness's will likely get it here first and cheaper than you. I say get what you want and avoid any buisness ideals as you will likely lose out on them. Your pretty much setting up an order that will likely be filled before you get the chance to get back or even get out there in some cases.

Michael


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When you come back to the US are you coming back on commecial flights or are you coming back on military transport? If you are flying commecial planes then you will have to come through a port of entry that is approved for wildlife imports (ex. New York, Miami, LA...) or make arrangements to have USF&W present to inspect the frogs and paperwork. (customs also needs to check them). 
If you are coming back on military transport then you will have to make arrangements for USF&W to check the frogs and paperwork. As this is not going to be through a port of entry you are going to have to schedule for a USF&W officer to meet you and inspect the import. This will require a fee and to schedule your flight to the officer's schedule. If they aren't there to inspect the frogs, (if I remember correctly) you cannot open the package and care for the animals. If the paperwork isn't stamped then you cannot do anything with the frogs and are technically in violation of the Lacy Act. 

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> I could not have, You posted it at the same time I was typing up my responce. importers who have buisness's will likely get it here first and cheaper than you. I say get what you want and avoid any buisness ideals as you will likely lose out on them
> Michael


Thanks for that bit of information Michael.

But also to make a bit clear as well with you that I am not making any business deals of ANY sort. I am a hobbyist. And I have the opportunity to goto Europe and bring back some frogs. I am not a Businessman and I would never want to be. If all the rare frogs in Europe are already here by the time I am able to even bring back 1 frog... So what... I am still going to bring back frogs... I am not doing this for money. I have a well paying job If I loose on money, Guess what? I got some cool frogs... I am taking suggestions on what to bring back not fulfilling orders. And I am not doing this like a business would do it... To make money. I am doing it so I can bring back some rare frogs from Europe. and secondly I am really just going to do it, to do it. Matter of fact I cannot tell you how many things I have done in my life that I did just to do....

This message is for everyone here... Please quit telling me why I should NOT do it. your really talking to a wall. Because I will do it anyways. Not to make money like a importer I am really doing it just to do it, along with the fact that I will get some really cool frogs out of the deal.

So stop telling me why I should NOT, and accept the fact that I AM.

Thank you.


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Ed said:


> When you come back to the US are you coming back on commecial flights or are you coming back on military transport? If you are flying commecial planes then you will have to come through a port of entry that is approved for wildlife imports (ex. New York, Miami, LA...) or make arrangements to have USF&W present to inspect the frogs and paperwork. (customs also needs to check them).
> If you are coming back on military transport then you will have to make arrangements for USF&W to check the frogs and paperwork. As this is not going to be through a port of entry you are going to have to schedule for a USF&W officer to meet you and inspect the import. This will require a fee and to schedule your flight to the officer's schedule. If they aren't there to inspect the frogs, (if I remember correctly) you cannot open the package and care for the animals. If the paperwork isn't stamped then you cannot do anything with the frogs and are technically in violation of the Lacy Act.
> 
> Some comments,
> ...


Hey Ed!

I always get excited when you post because you always know what your talking about. 

No when I make my flights back It will be commercial flights and not Space-A or MAC flights threw the military... Because of the reason's you mentioned But also the chance of the frogs getting back alive will be compromised. I don't know if you have ever traveled on a MAC flight but you could get stuck on anyone of the military's planes (an C-130 is not an acceptable airliner to transport frogs on) and you will have to make every stop on the military's check list before you get to your stop. It is a free flight to anywhere in the world. But it is also on the military's schedule...

I have shipped animals oversea's before (my wife's cats) and I am familiar with the process a little i.e. vet's approval custom's documents can't open the cage's or the paperwork folder until the USF&W inspect ect... I will be making phone calls here soon and finding out every bit of information and the process to familiarize myself. (always better prepared than unprepared) So I can figure out if I will need anything else for the frogs (and I already know I will be more for the frogs that I did with the cats)


Thanks for your input Ed... But it will be commercial flights only. Direct Flight only actually as my wife hates non-direct flights because of when she use to be a flight attendant... Its her personal pet peeve


----------



## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Welcome on www.atelopus.com

Like poison dart frogs and mantella, these are JEWELS of the TOAD world  I'm just curious what the status of these harlequin frogs/toads are out in EUROPE....it'd be great to get these guys in the hobby, get them breeding, and well established.....but....as it may be, just a pipe dream...a wonderful one at that 



Alex


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

yours said:


> Welcome on www.atelopus.com
> 
> Like poison dart frogs and mantella, these are JEWELS of the TOAD world  I'm just curious what the status of these harlequin frogs/toads are out in EUROPE....it'd be great to get these guys in the hobby, get them breeding, and well established.....but....as it may be, just a pipe dream...a wonderful one at that
> 
> ...


Alex ... Really?... Seriously?... Why?... UGGGGHHH!!!!! I don't want to hear anymore from you ROTFLMAO 

seriously ? would you be interested in one ?

are they legal to bring back ? because If I can I might... I don't know I wont make any promises but I wouldn't have any objections in getting you some if it will be feasible for me to do so. And am compensated for expenses but I will do the leg work for free and my flight home for free (because I will be visiting my parents anyways.)

My mission is to bring back Darts and I really have no interest in these toads but when I accomplish my dart frog feat. And it proves to not be a HUGE pain in my rear. I would definitely think about doing on my second or third trip back to the states on vacation....

Stay in touch, I mean this is not going to happen anytime soon I will not being going to Germany for a year and a half. And my first vacation wont be for at least 9 months after that... But I will never say shut this option out if i can do it and it wont affect my original intentions.



Maybe you can find out the legalities of this toad for me to being back...


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Nicholas said:


> But also to make a bit clear as well with you that I am not making any business deals of ANY sort. I am a hobbyist. And I have the opportunity to goto Europe and bring back some frogs. I am not a Businessman and I would never want to be. If all the rare frogs in Europe are already here by the time I am able to even bring back 1 frog... So what... I am still going to bring back frogs... I am not doing this for money. I have a well paying job If I loose on money, Guess what? I got some cool frogs... I am taking suggestions on what to bring back not fulfilling orders. And I am not doing this like a business would do it... To make money. I am doing it so I can bring back some rare frogs from Europe. and secondly I am really just going to do it, to do it. Matter of fact I cannot tell you how many things I have done in my life that I did just to do.....


All fine but if this is the case why ask what others want? Your wanting species names that we want from EU and you plan to bring them back to sell. Why not ust bring back what you want and what you think the hobby might want. Then and only then can you say it matters not if they sell or if they are already here.

I read the talking to a wall bit...Good luck and if I had to pick I would say grab up some Histo's or Sylvaticas that have legal papers.

Michael


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Histo's or Sylvaticas

I was Definitely thinking Histo's 

http://www.huisdieren.nu/reptielen/ecuador2_JVerkade.jpg scroll to the bottom of the page... Sylvaticas
I seen a bunch of different morphs just with google Images's WOW there are alot.... I may have to 

Here is another:
Oophaga sylvatica (Dendrobates sylvaticus

I may just add these to my list maybe have to bring back 2 or 3 morphs...

Fileendrobates sylvaticus PLoS.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

Thats a Nice frog... May definitely come back with a couple.

Look at all these Morphs... http://www.dendrobatenwelt.de/engl/sylv.htm


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

So on my list so far IS:
Histrionicus
Sylvaticus 

And MAYBE THE harlequinn toad if *yours* does his part and it's not a killer hassle for me to import.

Also if I manage to find a way to LEGALLY bring captivus and mysteriosus (I doubt it but I will ask and try) I will try... BIG IF there... 



Any other takers for my list...?


----------



## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Hmmm, I can't think of a frog, but some European chocolate sounds nice


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Wallace Grover said:


> Hmmm, I can't think of a frog, but some European chocolate sounds nice


Milka Is the best... I buy it in the world foods section of walmart... Milka kicks Lindt's Butt any day IMO.


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Nicholas,

I'm sure you'll find that what is available in Europe will change over time, so you may want to keep some space open for new things that will come along. Also, there are many smuggled frogs offered for sale in Europe that are not legal in the U.S., so it would be good to steer clear of questionable frogs.

Good luck with the effort, Richard.


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Woodsman said:


> Also, there are many smuggled frogs offered for sale in Europe that are not legal in the U.S., so it would be good to steer clear of questionable frogs.
> 
> Good luck with the effort, Richard.


Dude, Richard.
I am all over that. If it is Illegal. I am not bringing it back. I wont risk something stupid. Thanks for the heads up. I appreciate it. A lot of people are concerned about what I plan to do it seem's. There have been lots of post's lately. But like I said earlier. If it is illegal. It's not going to come back with me. I am not a frog smuggler. But I will bring frogs back. But Legally.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nicholas said:


> Hey Ed!
> 
> I always get excited when you post because you always know what your talking about.
> 
> ...


Hi Nicholas,
While I never served, I have had a number of friends, several members of the immediate and extended family serve and use the military transport system which is how I was familar with it. 

With respect to the histrionicus and some of the other frogs, you need to be careful as a number of the frogs (depending on the import/source) are legal in Germany but will not be legal outside of the country. You may have to backtrack to the original source to prove legality before you can be sure they will not be seized on entrance to the US. There is a lot of fuss over some of the varients that have shown up overseas in recent years... 

There are Atelopus that are not endangered or threatened and provided they were legally exported to Europe will be legal to import to the US. One of the reasons, they were not being allowed into the US, is that the exporters were not correctly identifying them on the export/import documents and were listing them as Dwarf Toads Bufo sp.. This is a violation of shipping regulations etc and again, you are going to want to try and get back to the original paperwork if possible. 

Ed


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Ed said:


> Hi Nicholas,
> While I never served, I have had a number of friends, several members of the immediate and extended family serve and use the military transport system which is how I was familar with it.
> 
> With respect to the histrionicus and some of the other frogs, you need to be careful as a number of the frogs (depending on the import/source) are legal in Germany but will not be legal outside of the country. You may have to backtrack to the original source to prove legality before you can be sure they will not be seized on entrance to the US. There is a lot of fuss over some of the varients that have shown up overseas in recent years...
> ...


So a lot of my Investigation work will have to be when I am on the Ground in Europe. Well this is a Good thing I will be there for 4 years... Plenty of time to Investigate and pull back as many frogs I can and get original paperwork for them to find out if they could be legal here in the U.S.

Hey, Ed don't you work for a Zoo? ...........


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nicholas said:


> .
> 
> Hey, Ed don't you work for a Zoo? ...........


Yep. 

Ed


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

well zoo's can own a Tiger or Black Mamba or a Endangered Specie's rated EW but they cannot own a captivus or a mysteriosus Legally?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nicholas said:


> well zoo's can own a Tiger but they cannot own a captivus or a mysteriosus Legally?


Tigers were legally exported.. Zoos also have to obey the regulations like the Lacy Act.. Now if you bring them in and they are confiscated, the Zoos would have some legal frogs as USF&W would donate them or place them with a Zoo... 

Technically if a Zoo wanted to jump through all of the hoops, they could probably get permits to collect and import those frogs but the hassel is significant... and there are a lot of frogs out there that are ever more endangered... 

Ed


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Ed said:


> there are a lot of frogs out there that are ever more endangered...
> 
> Ed


You are a very smart man Ed...


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

If you don`t come thru a designated wildlife port you`ll have to get a designated port permit. I don't think they are available for every airport in the US.


----------



## ROOSTER (Aug 22, 2010)

what if you get Deployed and then get sent back states side after that?
unfortunely there is still a war going on.......you know the way the Army is......they can do what ever they want when you are their property,
unless you are exempt from deployment.


----------



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Nicholas said:


> Here is another:
> Oophaga sylvatica (Dendrobates sylvaticus


narino sylvatica / whitefoot histos/ koi / el pagan (or whatever else these might currently go by) are , to my knowledge, and quite unfortunately, only from a national preserve in departmento narino colombia, and are therefore not legal.

my #1 wishlist frog though 

james


----------



## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

I would love to see Blue Jeans tinctorius make their way over here, along with a number of Phyllomedusine tree frogs if you decide to do more than just darts.


----------



## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

A pr. of O. Lehmanni would be nice. Also a pr. Atelopus sp. since I cann't find any for sale here in the states. Nicholas have you check out the wishlist tread?


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

ROOSTER said:


> what if you get Deployed and then get sent back states side after that?
> unfortunely there is still a war going on.......you know the way the Army is......they can do what ever they want when you are their property,
> unless you are exempt from deployment.


I have deployed alot. And you obviously dont know how this works in the Army. We do not just go from here to there to here and there on a whim... Most soldiers have families and cool things like you know... Cars and furniture, and T.V. and stuff... what do you think ? the army say go here. a day or two later your there, and when they say now go here, you go there and have to buy all new $#!% and sleep on the floor until you buy a new bed or something ?

Get Real.

The day I am exempt from deployment. Is the day I get out of the Army. I enjoy deploying more then I enjoy this hobby I can guarantee you that.


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

james67 said:


> narino sylvatica / whitefoot histos/ koi / el pagan (or whatever else these might currently go by) are , to my knowledge, and quite unfortunately, only from a national preserve in departmento narino colombia, and are therefore not legal.
> 
> my #1 wishlist frog though
> 
> james


narino sylvatica








koi








whitefoot histos









These the frog you are talking about?


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Tony said:


> I would love to see Blue Jeans tinctorius make their way over here, along with a number of Phyllomedusine tree frogs if you decide to do more than just darts.


Got a picture I cannot find one?


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

charlesbrooks said:


> A pr. of O. Lehmanni would be nice. Also a pr. Atelopus sp. since I cann't find any for sale here in the states. Nicholas have you check out the wishlist tread?



O. Lehmanni I Really like this one....








Atelopus Kind of looks like that Madagascar toad











charlesbrooks said:


> Nicholas have you check out the wishlist tread?


No, did not know there was one... Is it for Sp. that are only in Europe?


----------



## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Nicholas said:


> Got a picture I cannot find one?


Here is one from the Tropical Experience morphguide.


----------



## Andy Hoffman (Aug 27, 2010)

I second James' list. If you can do it the right way, I am in for them and a Lehmanni.


----------



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

mine wasnt a list. those names have been used interchangeably for the same frog over the years. 

james


----------



## Andy Hoffman (Aug 27, 2010)

Not like it matters, but you did call it a wishlist. Either way, thanks for bringing them to my attention.


----------



## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

The Atelopus sp. are the harlequin toads/frogs....a pair would be ideal  *THUMBS UP to Charles Brooks!*




Alex


----------



## ClintonJ (May 11, 2009)

From a breeder's stand point isn't it just as important to the US breeders to bring back the same kinds of frogs we currently have just from different lineage? The frogs on your list are really cool, good luck with those, but I'm sure everybody that breeds their frogs would love a new frog from a foreign line to breed their current frogs with.


----------



## ROOSTER (Aug 22, 2010)

Dude, I just asked a @#$%^&$% question! and yes I do know about the army, my son is deployed and he is in AFGANISTAN ! not in Germany, so don't get testy with me.......... Again I just asked a @^^$%#[email protected]#$ question.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ClintonJ said:


> From a breeder's stand point isn't it just as important to the US breeders to bring back the same kinds of frogs we currently have just from different lineage? The frogs on your list are really cool, good luck with those, but I'm sure everybody that breeds their frogs would love a new frog from a foreign line to breed their current frogs with.


You may want to review the discussions on here on outbreeding depression, I don't want to get into a discussion of it here as it would hijack the topic too much. For a start see also http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands 2007.pdf

Ed


----------



## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

what about tropical anoils


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Simply because he can get them “legally” to the US doesn’t mean he should. there is a chance they didn’t leave the country of origin legally.




tachikoma said:


> I am not sure if you read above but he has stated he will get the paperwork. And as he has stated if he can't do it legally he won't. Can we all just get past that part and give the man what he wants? He just wants some ideas on people's wishlist for LEGAL rarer frogs he could bring back.




Both histrionica and sylvatica have been smuggled HEAVILY in past years. so i would say you stay away from those. maybe we just wait till they come from the countries of origin legally and sustainably?

And lehmanni is one of the most endangered amphibians in the world, so that wouldn’t be good either.




Nicholas said:


> Histo's or Sylvaticas
> 
> I was Definitely thinking Histo's
> 
> ...



My input, don’t bring in anything. chances are its smuggled. we already get plenty of “new european bloodlines” of plenty of stuff every year. ill wait for things to come from ecuador and columbia legally, sustainably, and consevation minded. hopefully everyone else feels the same way.


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

As much as I dont want to add to the list I would say one of the most important darts we do need more of the avalible lines for are the standard lamasi. It very much endangered in the wild and we all know the lines we need to keep them going are in EU.

Michael


----------



## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

is it just me or could this be an opportunity to put new blood into bottlenecked populations we already have here, like iquitos vents for example. There is nothing shady about bringing blood in for a more resilient genetic pool


----------



## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

winstonamc said:


> is it just me or could this be an opportunity to put new blood into bottlenecked populations we already have here, like iquitos vents for example. There is nothing shady about bringing blood in for a more resilient genetic pool


I agree 100%....Why are we given him a hard time? why are we quick to judge? He haven't broken,nor talked about braking any laws.


----------



## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

Obviously no one wants to break any laws or further endanger the current species of the 'hotlist' but I also agree it would not be a bad idea to possibly enhance the gene pool of our current frogs here in the U.S. I support what Nicholas wants to do as I have several friends in military and also have a long-time deployed friend in Germany currently working with species he did not/ could not obtain here. mysteriosus...good luck I don't see them coming here for maybe ten more years untill enough CB lines have been produced (All from illegals of course).

Now as for Histrionicus' & Sylvaticus' i've been seeing more and more success with so I can seeing them coming more and more here. ex. my favorite frog ranitomaya benedicta was always a shady frog from europe but I know see them for sale from pro beeders here in the U.S. 

Who knows? Maybe we'll get more pros here who we want them to obtain them and have more success with them and we'll be thanking Nicholas for going through the trouble of bringing them back to those people. I'm sure it's everyones' dream to see them returned to the wild and it takes effort that I feel he's trying to achieve. For now most of my 'wishlist' frogs have already been listed so i'll just continue with my pumilios.


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

winstonamc said:


> is it just me or could this be an opportunity to put new blood into bottlenecked populations we already have here, like iquitos vents for example. There is nothing shady about bringing blood in for a more resilient genetic pool


Or we could focus on breeding the iquitos that mark pepper brought in. since we have a fine bloodline of them, and they were brought in sustainably with locality info. as for the old line, we don’t have locality info.

Just saying…


----------



## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

That's true, i mean if as stated above it would also be just as convenient to wait for them to come from their countries of origin instead of captive bred from illegal bloodlines. 

Of course everyone wants to see that, really this is that type of thing of patience until all that really happens. But for that to happen there has to be a stop to those who have demand for endangered frogs to stop smuggling and let them reproduce naturally until a handful of surplus from the wild can be legally exported....that's what i fantasize for. But it's heartbreaking to feel like that wont happen so the next 'best' thing as people argue is to obtain them for selfish reasons and breed so many so they can be reintroduced. My argument is what's to say their habitat will be around long enough due to agriculture mainly for the frogs to be returned?


----------



## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

poison beauties said:


> As much as I dont want to add to the list I would say one of the most important darts we do need more of the avalible lines for are the standard lamasi. It very much endangered in the wild and we all know the lines we need to keep them going are in EU.
> 
> Michael


From what I've heard the highland lamasi are almost nonexistent in Europe now and they can find more to smuggle them in.


----------



## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Hey mate,

I am offering you something different: whenever you are in Germany, give me a call if you want to meet and I invite you for a beer or 2 (or more...) And I could help you get legal atelopus morphs with CITES. We would need to take a tour to the Netherlands, but I am going there quite often on the weekends.

Concerning the other frogs that are talked about here in this thread, I can help you get in contact with people in Germany that have and breed some of them around here. But as already stated, most of these have been smuggled at some point of their lives and getting the papers will be difficult at least.

If you ever get to Austria, this country also has a vast amount of breeders with sylvaticus, histos and lehmanii, some of which claim they have got all the papers...

Anyway PM me if you are interesed.

Have a nice day

gluedl


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

dendrothusiast said:


> That's true, i mean if as stated above it would also be just as convenient to wait for them to come from their countries of origin instead of captive bred from illegal bloodlines.
> 
> Of course everyone wants to see that, really this is that type of thing of patience until all that really happens. But for that to happen there has to be a stop to those who have demand for endangered frogs to stop smuggling and let them reproduce naturally until a handful of surplus from the wild can be legally exported....that's what i fantasize for. But it's heartbreaking to feel like that wont happen so the next 'best' thing as people argue is to obtain them for selfish reasons and breed so many so they can be reintroduced. My argument is what's to say their habitat will be around long enough due to agriculture mainly for the frogs to be returned?




you make some good points. i recommend you read these 2 threads from a little bit before you signed up. i dont recommend you try making another thread about this stuff though  theres a lot of BS but if you can make it through there is a lot of good info.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54624-illegal-frogs-forum.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...9-help-against-smuggling-protected-frogs.html


----------



## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

Hey thedude, I can see where your coming from and I have read both those articles before. I still agree with some few it's a nice idea to enhance the bloodline of what we already have here.

As far as smuggling goes nobody wants it and I sure would never support it for the desire of a rare frog. That's why I usually check in with understory but back to what I'm getting at I just want to see Nicholas succeed with obtaining species with proper papers and obviously I or anyone else wont know for a couple of years or more. When he comes back with them of course I most likely wont touch them but rather would see people like aaron or josh from their businesses with them since they are more qualified I feel. Now my argument about their habitat, if its destroyed with the frogs then shame on us for not protecting it. But it's still not right to say we'll save them by over breeding them and returning them to their habitat. I still stand by seeing them exported legally by coutry of origin due to healthy population. If this offends someone i'm sorry but it's no reason for us to illegally collect them. I'm not going to continue this debate here as there's tons of posts that went to flames because of this. If you simply would like to express your opinions pm me or we'll start our own topic in it's own post.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

The OP isn't going over to Europe for like, 4 years from now......

We will be lucky to still have a country, or not be owned by China by then.

To say this thread was a little premature, is kind of an understatement...


----------



## verybadcow (Aug 6, 2010)

Lol my thoughts exactly phil, it was amusing watching people get all worked up though.


----------

