# Frog not able to move its back legs?



## Crazy frog

Hi guys I had got this 4months old yellow bumble bee froglet and he was healthy feeding and fat ..in the morning I was feeding it and it was still fine but when I check the tank again hours later I found that he wasn't able to move it back legs ?? What is the problem? Over feeding ??


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## azure89

Sounds like some sort of vitamin deficiency to me, what supplements are you using?


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## Crazy frog

I am feeding daily repashy ICB calcium plus and ones a week supervit...


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## jbherpin

I think a pic of both the frog and the viv are needed if anyone is going to be able to help you. I had a similar problem recently... Best of luck!

JBear


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## Ed

There are a number of potential causes of this sort of symptom. 

Asking what supplements the person is using with no other information lacks context and is useless. 

When asking questions about husbandry I wish people would ask the following questions (or have them posted already so they don't have to be asked)

1) how long has the person had the frog

2) what were the highest temperature during the day in that enclosure

3) was the frog handled or moved 

4) other animals in the enclosure 

5) any odd behaviors 


As an example... just asking what supplements the person used without the above information does absolutely nothing to rule out problems with supplements as that person could have recently aquired that frog and it could have issues with deficiencies before they got it.


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## andry

I would appreciate some answers too. I had a girl leuc that this happened to but it was her front left leg. After a few days of not eating and dragging herself if I tried to get her to move, I put her down.  I couldn't bare watching her suffer.

If it helps I can answer Ed's questions to see if there is any relation:

1) how long has the person had the frog = 10 Months

2) what were the highest temperature during the day in that enclosure = 79F

3) was the frog handled or moved = Yes, it was separated with a male from another pair. From a 75G to a 10G just 2 weeks ago. But she had been moved in January from a 20G to the 75G and did just fine. Of course she wasn't separated from any other frogs. She was moved with the two males she had been with for approx 3 years. All of a sudden, I move her with only one male and she gets depressed. Burrows all day in the dirt where she can find it. She digger up the moss to get in the dirt and would sit in it. I finally moved her back to the 75G and she still would just hide and not come out to eat. That's when I noticed her leg stop functioning. Two days later I took her out and put her into quarantine where she would not eat and drag herself around on her side. It was very sad. I put her down after two days of quarantine and starting her on Baytril. Total days, probably a week and a half to two weeks of when I first moved her.

4) other animals in the enclosure - A male she has lived with for 3 years.

5) any odd behaviors - Depression


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## JL-Exotics

Ed said:


> There are a number of potential causes of this sort of symptom.
> 
> Asking what supplements the person is using with no other information lacks context and is useless.
> 
> When asking questions about husbandry I wish people would ask the following questions (or have them posted already so they don't have to be asked)
> 
> 1) how long has the person had the frog
> 
> 2) what were the highest temperature during the day in that enclosure
> 
> 3) was the frog handled or moved
> 
> 4) other animals in the enclosure
> 
> 5) any odd behaviors
> 
> 
> As an example... just asking what supplements the person used without the above information does absolutely nothing to rule out problems with supplements as that person could have recently aquired that frog and it could have issues with deficiencies before they got it.


To be fair Ed, a response of "What are supplements??" or "Some stuff I got 4 years ago in a white bottle" could give some insight - but agreed, more information is needed in most cases.


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## Ed

JL-Exotics said:


> To be fair Ed, a response of "What are supplements??" or "Some stuff I got 4 years ago in a white bottle" could give some insight - but agreed, more information is needed in most cases.


Hi Jeremey, 

Yes but those answers in and of themselves would provide context but just asking what supplements without the other information lacks context.. a presumptive diagnosis was made even before the information on the supplements came back... 

Ed


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## Ed

andry said:


> If it helps I can answer Ed's questions to see if there is any relation:
> 
> 1) how long has the person had the frog = 10 Months
> 
> 2) what were the highest temperature during the day in that enclosure = 79F
> 
> 3) was the frog handled or moved = Yes, it was separated with a male from another pair. From a 75G to a 10G just 2 weeks ago. But she had been moved in January from a 20G to the 75G and did just fine. Of course she wasn't separated from any other frogs. She was moved with the two males she had been with for approx 3 years. All of a sudden, I move her with only one male and she gets depressed. Burrows all day in the dirt where she can find it. She digger up the moss to get in the dirt and would sit in it. I finally moved her back to the 75G and she still would just hide and not come out to eat. That's when I noticed her leg stop functioning. Two days later I took her out and put her into quarantine where she would not eat and drag herself around on her side. .
> 
> 4) other animals in the enclosure - A male she has lived with for 3 years.
> 
> 5) any odd behaviors - Depression


First off, in this case, depression not really descriptive.. Anorexic is a better case. 

Did you get her x-rayed to rule out a dislocation?


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## azure89

I appologize for my assumptions and bad questions I guess they were useless, in my keeping of darts for the past 10 years the most common problem that I've seen is vitamin defeciency and I haven't had many problems with my frogs thankfully, so I guess my identification of medical problems is lacking at best


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## Ed

azure89 said:


> I appologize for my assumptions and bad questions I guess they were useless, in my keeping of darts for the past 10 years the most common problem that I've seen is vitamin defeciency and I haven't had many problems with my frogs thankfully, so I guess my identification of medical problems is lacking at best


And this post is helpful how?


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## Ed

The reason people shouldn't immediately leap to "supplements" as the diagnosis in cases like this is because (and this is not an all inclusive list),

1) the symptoms could be due to trauma 

2) the symptoms could be due to impaction and pressure on the nerves that pass through the pelvic region

3) the symptoms could be caused by a parasitic or other infection

4) thermal stress can cause this sort of symptoms

if there is a problem with the supplements and it is severe enough to cause an inability to use the hind limbs, then deformation is commonly seen in other areas of the body, and the frog should have exhibited a rigid paralysis with tremoring or spasming of the muscles (although this can also occur with thermal stress). Without contextual information, you might as well just say it was because Mars was in conjunction with Jupiter...


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## Crazy frog

Ed said:


> There are a number of potential causes of this sort of symptom.
> 
> Asking what supplements the person is using with no other information lacks context and is useless.
> 
> When asking questions about husbandry I wish people would ask the following questions (or have them posted already so they don't have to be asked)
> 
> 1) how long has the person had the frog (this frog is close to 5mths ,morph out from tadpole,I had a total of 70pcs of them but this is the first case )
> 
> 2) what were the highest temperature during the day in that enclosure (29 degree C)
> 
> 3) was the frog handled or moved (No)
> 
> 4) other animals in the enclosure (No, all are bumble bee about 10 of them in a tank 30x45x60cm with dry moss changed Weekly.)
> 
> 5) any odd behaviors( it was normal and feeding before the hind legs was dead)
> 
> 
> Thanks ED , hope this might help.
> 
> 
> As an example... just asking what supplements the person used without the above information does absolutely nothing to rule out problems with supplements as that person could have recently aquired that frog and it could have issues with deficiencies before they got it.


Thanks ED , hope this might help.


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## LookinRound

Ed said:


> First off, in this case, depression not really descriptive.. Anorexic is a better case.
> 
> Did you get her x-rayed to rule out a dislocation?


Does acute bilateral dislocation occur commonly in frogs?


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## andry

Ed said:


> First off, in this case, depression not really descriptive.. Anorexic is a better case.
> 
> Did you get her x-rayed to rule out a dislocation?


Depression I describe as sitting in one spot, burrowed in dirt, and not wanting to move unless forced to move. She sat like this for 3 days. If fed, she would let the ff crawl over her, but she would not eat. It started the day I moved her out of her 75g and her old buddy pal she was so used to living with so I assume, depression. But maybe I'm thinking too much like a human. 

I made sure the conditions in the tank were adequate. Humidity high, temp right. Then the limping started after that. 

No, I did not have her x-rayed. d


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## LookinRound

andry said:


> depression. But maybe I'm thinking too much like a human.


In veterinary medicine the animal is referred to as obtunded for this reason. Depression is more of the mental state of humans while obtunded is what we call an animal that is acting in a manner that most people would term depressed.


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## Ed

LookinRound said:


> Does acute bilateral dislocation occur commonly in frogs?


There are two different cases here, the original poster is referring to a problem with the hind legs, there was a hijack where one of the front legs, became unusable. 

It was the front leg case, that I asked if they had it x-rayed to see if it was dislocated or broken. Reports of similar injuries are not rare and have occured with observations of a leg being trapped in plant or structural materials in the enclosures. 

Bilateral dislocation is fairly uncommon but I have seen incorrect (over zealous) capturing/recapturing cause this in small anurans. 

Ed


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## Ed

andry said:


> Depression I describe as sitting in one spot, burrowed in dirt, and not wanting to move unless forced to move. She sat like this for 3 days. If fed, she would let the ff crawl over her, but she would not eat. It started the day I moved her out of her 75g and her old buddy pal she was so used to living with so I assume, depression. But maybe I'm thinking too much like a human.
> 
> I made sure the conditions in the tank were adequate. Humidity high, temp right. Then the limping started after that.
> 
> No, I did not have her x-rayed. d


Dendrobatids do not form attachments to mates, like that seen in some other taxa (some primates as an example) so the seperation from one frog or the other is not the cause.


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## Ed

Crazy frog said:


> Thanks ED , hope this might help.


The data you provided makes it very unlikely to be an issue with supplements (and illustrates why context is important). If the frog is still feeding well, I would suggest consulting with a vet on it (and you may want to confirm that it is passing fecals). You can check on the fecals by feeding the frogs, and then once it is finished eating moving it to a plastic shoe box lined with damp paper towels. 

Ed


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## LookinRound

Ed said:


> There are two different cases here, the original poster is referring to a problem with the hind legs, there was a hijack where one of the front legs, became unusable.
> 
> It was the front leg case, that I asked if they had it x-rayed to see if it was dislocated or broken. Reports of similar injuries are not rare and have occured with observations of a leg being trapped in plant or structural materials in the enclosures.
> 
> Bilateral dislocation is fairly uncommon but I have seen incorrect (over zealous) capturing/recapturing cause this in small anurans.
> 
> Ed


Thank you Ed, I missed it was someone else that had replied, my fault there. It definitely makes sense for the single leg. Poor handling makes sense for bilateral dislocation as well, thank you.


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## Ed

There have been a couple of anecdotal cases in which the frog had an impacted bowel and the issues with the hind legs was reported along with a resolution when a bowel movement was completed. It was theorized that there was pressure placed on the nerves resulting in a temporary paralysis. 

Ed


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## earthfrog

I think it is relevant also to note whether the frog has stiff limbs that cannot extend (possibly pointing to thermal damage) or simply has limbs that are completely limp or hanging loosely behind it, which may indicate more of a nervous system dysfunction or paralysis from dislocation or bowel impaction. This is just my best *guess* from dealing with a galac I acquired which was noticeably damaged from becoming overheated during transport.


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## macasus

i got an auratus with what looks like a broken back leg


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## james67

i have a mint terribilis that is showing these symptoms now. 

some background info;

the frog is a sub adult, nearing 1 year and has previously acted in what i would consider to be a normal and healthy way. 
it was housed with one sibling until a few weeks ago when i moved. at that time i acquired 5 more juveniles and gave the sibling to my former roommate. 
after the move (where all frogs from my collection were caught, packaged and placed in a cooler, and delivered in the security of my automobile) the original frog (the one in question) was placed back into its original enclosure. 
the 5 juveniles were also added to the enclosure. 
at this time i fed heavily in order to ascertain whether aggression would be an issue (since the frog in question had been a violent feeder, attacking any prey items that it encountered) no aggression was noted.
all of my frogs are fed on a rotation of repcal and repashy calcium plus (herpetivite is also used on occasion)
temps have been stable and between 65 and 75 for the entire life of the animal.

now to the symptoms:
within 48 hours of placing the frog (and the 5 new juveniles) into the enclosure it took a sudden and massive turn for the worse. i checked on it frequently during the first 24 hours and during that time it remained active and seemingly healthy. i went to bed and upon making my rounds the next morning it seemed odd. there was what appeared to be some sort of discoloration , but assuming that it was just the light hitting the frog in a strange way i proceeded to gently nudge the animal into a different position. the spot disappeared but it was clear that the frog not only had impaired use of its hind limbs, it seemed to have lost the majority of its mass in the time since i had last checked it (before i went to bed, about 6 hours previous) having a family function that required my attention, i left and called a fellow frogger who advised/ agreed that i remove the animal immediately upon returning home. that evening i did just that. 

i moved the frog into a QT container and although i have not seen it eat is did pass what i can only describe as the largest piece of fecal matter i have ever seen come from a dart frog.its shape has also reverted to what i would consider normal, or even slightly past that. its legs seem useless and it mostly lays sprawled out barely supporting its head.

surprisingly the fecal matter i described simply vanished. there are no springtails or other microfauna which could have broken it down and it was sitting on plastic. 

im at loss here. its something that i havent seen before, and its quite concerning.
any info would be greatly appreciated. the juveniles remain unaffected BTW.

james


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## james67

i really could use some advice here. im seriously considering euthanasia but if there are other opinions on options i'd like to hear them. the condition has not worsened since the first post, but there is no sign of improvement either.

james


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## srrrio

Sorry I have not a suggestion at all..other then consulting with a vet. I am curious to know if you are dropping food strategically for him to eat? You have kept him alive for a good period of time it he is not using his legs.

Anyway, best of luck
Sally


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## james67

i think you'd be surprised how long a frog can go without eating. not that i would deprive a frog food, but since its not active and hunting the feeders would likely be a nuisance so i've held off.

i'd like to try some ARS but cant find any locally. if i dont have any new useful ideas by tomorrow, im going to humanely put it down with some benzocaine. i certainly dont want the animal to suffer.

james


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## Dizzle21

Ed said:


> There have been a couple of anecdotal cases in which the frog had an impacted bowel and the issues with the hind legs was reported along with a resolution when a bowel movement was completed. It was theorized that there was pressure placed on the nerves resulting in a temporary paralysis.
> 
> Ed


Can an impacted bowel be for seen by chronic rectal prolapse?
Is there any lasting deficits from temporary paralysis?


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## Ed

Dizzle21 said:


> Can an impacted bowel be for seen by chronic rectal prolapse?


No. There are multiple reasons for chronic rectal prolapse, two of the leading contenders are high parasite loads and secondly insufficient calcium. 




Dizzle21 said:


> Is there any lasting deficits from temporary paralysis?


it would depend on how long the paralysis remained and whether or not the impaction resulted in a perforation of the digestive tract, reduction in blood flow to or from the limbs or damaged the nerves. The longer the paralysis happens, the greater the probability there will be some long term issues.... 

Ed


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## Atticus

andry said:


> I would appreciate some answers too. I had a girl leuc that this happened to but it was her front left leg. After a few days of not eating and dragging herself if I tried to get her to move, I put her down.  I couldn't bare watching her suffer.
> 
> If it helps I can answer Ed's questions to see if there is any relation:
> 
> 1) how long has the person had the frog = 10 Months
> 
> 2) what were the highest temperature during the day in that enclosure = 79F
> 
> 3) was the frog handled or moved = Yes, it was separated with a male from another pair. From a 75G to a 10G just 2 weeks ago. But she had been moved in January from a 20G to the 75G and did just fine. Of course she wasn't separated from any other frogs. She was moved with the two males she had been with for approx 3 years. All of a sudden, I move her with only one male and she gets depressed. Burrows all day in the dirt where she can find it. She digger up the moss to get in the dirt and would sit in it. I finally moved her back to the 75G and she still would just hide and not come out to eat. That's when I noticed her leg stop functioning. Two days later I took her out and put her into quarantine where she would not eat and drag herself around on her side. It was very sad. I put her down after two days of quarantine and starting her on Baytril. Total days, probably a week and a half to two weeks of when I first moved her.
> 
> 4) other animals in the enclosure - A male she has lived with for 3 years.
> 
> 5) any odd behaviors - Depression



Same here. I have a healthy Tree frog that can't move her back legs and her back legs are really red - like blood is pooled. I've had her for 3 years. We just put her down a few hours ago.


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