# Zach's 20 long vert



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Decided it's time to start documenting my build process. Hopefully it will give other people ideas and help out with their own builds.

So I recently built my first 10g vert, only to realize that I had used toxic silicone for my background. Don't use silicone with mold inhibitors! That was a big mistake and one that ended my tank. I'm going to be salvaging what I can from it and rebuilding it, only better! 

The plan is to build a 20 long instead of a 10g, because I wanted something a little bigger and I love having the vertical space. The majority of my plants will be bromeliads and some vines. I want to use the vertical space I have as effectively as possible. I want to incorporate a couple shelves and a couple very small planters to start some ferns or vines into the background. The background will be a mix of Malaysian driftwood and great stuff foam. Then topped with titebond III wood glue and cocoa fiber/peat moss. I have no idea what frogs to get that will benefit from this much vertical space so suggestions will be welcomed.

Here is where I'm at today. Just got the tank from petco and the driftwood from my local fish store. I first siliconed around the rim of the tank. Then scuffed up the inside glass with sandpaper to ensure a permanent bond between the glass and great stuff. Then siliconed the driftwood in place. I also used pvc pipe to support the largest piece of driftwood.

















Now just waiting impatiently for the silicone to cure....

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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Nice start bud, take all the time you can


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Thanks! I'm being alot more particular about this one 

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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Went ahead and did the great stuff last night, I also painted the outside glass so you won't see the ugly yellow foam. Then this morning I applied a thin layer of original gorilla glue on all the bare glass. Only reason for this is to give the titebond something to grab onto. I did a small experiment a couple weeks ago using a scrap piece of glass. I found out titebond does not hold on to bare glass as well as I hoped, and silicone covered glass fared much worse. The gorilla glue seemed to be the best alternative for the base material. Now I will wait until tomorrow to do the titebond. 


















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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Zach, are you going to cut the GS back with a blade before you smear it with Titebond or whatever you intend to do? It would give a better surface for the Titebond to adhere to and it would also make the wood stick out a little further from the background. 

Here is a background I did a while back. If I didn't cut back the GS with a blade, it would have just swallowed up my wood that I secured to the background. Cutting off the shiny surface also made my silicone stick better. Here is a mid-build picture:










Sorry if I am not understanding your intent properly.

Mark


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Yes, I plan on using a dremel and shaping it a bit. I'll be sure to take pictures when I do it. 

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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Nice! Don't be afraid to cut it way back. The space that the GS is currently taking up could be used by the frogs 

Good work!

Mark


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Thanks for the advice!  I ended up putting about 2 hours of cutting with the dremel today, it probably needs at least another hour before it's done with this stage. I just ran out of time today. I have to say, I am extremely pleased with the way this is turning out though! The dremel works fantastic for shaping the foam. I was able to cut out 2 planters with drainage and a couple shelves. 









Here is where I ended up so far









In case anyone else uses the dremel method, I tried several of the cutting tools, but this one was by far the best! 

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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

That looks great! I will have to try the Dremel method next time  What is that bit called?

Mark


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Thank you very much!  It's one of the high speed cutters, part # 117 

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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Ooooo I want to try the dremel method too. Bet it works great on polystyrene too.


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

For those that plan on carving their foam with the dremel, I must warn you. It is extremely messy! The dremel will cut the foam into tiny pieces that will cover everything. I highly suggest you do this outside, and please wear a dust mask and some chem safety glasses. This stuff WILL find its way into your eyes without them. It will also be smart to have a vacuum to clean up the area your working on occasionally. I also used an air compressor to clean everything else off including me. 

Just some advice 

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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Any method of cutting foam makes a huge mess sans hot wire...but then you do still have to worry about ventilation.


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

What do you guys recommend I use for the top layer for the background? Last time I used about a 50/50 ratio of shredded peat moss and cocoa fiber. I'm looking for something with less texture but still holds some moisture. I want a really good material for vines. The substrate I have been looking at is zilla jungle mix. Not sure if anyone has used it.

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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

I use zilla jingle mix and I like it a lot. It'll hold moisture. 


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Perfect, thanks for the reply! 

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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Alright so I ended up doing about 2 more hours of carving with the dremel and I am extremely pleased with the way it turned out! I ended up doing a little reinforcing on some of the ledges by painting some gorilla glue on top of it. Turned rock hard and fills alot of the foam pores, just have to make sure you spread it out when it starts foaming up. 

A few hours later I did my first layer using zilla jungle mix. I love the jungle mix, I think it looks fantastic on the background. I think it will do a good job of holding moisture as well so hopefully I will get good plant growth on it. The first layer was applied fairly thin and turned out patchy, but the second coat will be applied a bit thicker. 









Here's where it's at so far, needs lots of touch up. I'm going to wait until tomorrow before doing anything else. Tell me what you think so far!

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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

So I'm starting to do my research on frogs that will do good in such a tall tank. So far I've mostly been looking at leucs and thumbnails. I'm leaning more towards a group of thumbnails, specifically imitators. What do you guys recommend? 

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## emallard25 (Jun 28, 2012)

Hey, looks great so far. Can't wait to see it planted. I'm about to start another build, and have some large pieces of malaysian drift wood I'm planning to use in the background. I was wondering if greatstuff is strong enough to support the weight. How did you attach the pieces? On my last build, I found it really difficult to attach the wood with silicone. I couldn't find a good surface for the silicone to bond with the glass and wood.


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Thanks! I don't know for sure if the great stuff would support any big pieces of wood. I used regular silicone on the parts of the wood that contacts the glass and that's it. I used some blue painters tape to hold the wood in place and it helped a little but I had a very hard time with one of the little pieces. After the silicone cured the wood stuck to the glass surprisingly well, the great stuff is there just for extra support  Oh, I also threw some pvc pipe under the big piece for extra support.

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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Imitator are not group frogs. But they "imitate" other frogs that are, like variabilis, fantastica, etc.


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Thanks for the advice. After looking through the care sheets more thoroughly I think variabilis will likely be the way to go. I read that fantastica are also not recommended for groups. Though I'm only looking to get between 2 and 4, not sure yet.

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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

You're good bro. If it's driftwood, great stuff will hold it. I do exactly what you did. Glue what touches the glass with silicone, then foam over it. Shit is going no where! 😝


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

For some reason the titebond is having a hard time curing. There are a couple spots still wet that have been sitting over 24 hrs, not sure what's up with that

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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Man, this tank is going to be very interesting to plant. 

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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I do not know where you read that fantasticas are not frogs for groups; but I also am reading recently some wrong information about some species of frogs, so I am not surprised at all.
Rather, fants are not recommended for beginners (but I do not know if you're a beginner, because be "Junior member" it does not mean being a beginner).
However, variabilis are a good choice - but *only *variabilis, please, avoid mixed tank.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Looking good! Nice work. Might be a bit easier than you think to plant it. There are lots of little nooks and crannies and you could cram sphagnum into them as little "pots" to give some plants a place to anchor their roots while they get established. You could do that all the way up the back wall, if you wanted to. I have also just bent floral wire into a U before and stuck those into the back wall to anchor plants. Again, I just wrap the roots in sphagnum, put the floral wire U around them and push that into the Great Stuff. Works well for me for bromeliads. It's one option, anyway.

Mark


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Sorry I'm not trying to contradict you. I have been reading the care sheets on this forum quite often lately, that's where most of my information is coming from. I believe it said groups of fantastica are recommended only for larger tanks. Which, if that's true I would rather just stick to a pair or look at other options for the sake of the frogs.

I would consider myself a beginner, yes. I have kept several herps over the years, but these will be my first darts. It will also be the first time I've had to culture my own food rather than just running down to the store and buying crickets. I think that is the most intimidating part of all this. Thanks for you help, I appreciate it 

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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I think that 20 gallon are good for a group of fants (let's say 4 frogs). It is obvious that bigger is better. But fants are fast, very fast, and shy. I personally think this your viv is fine for variabilis (or vanzolini or amazonica - amazonica, probably my next frogs).
Keep us updated


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Honestly, I think amazonica are the coolest frogs I have ever seen. My local pet store had a couple a while back and they were beautiful, unfortunately they wanted a small fortune for the pair. Anyways, I'll keep looking around and doing my research. Thanks again for the advice!  

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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sounds like a good store to sell your future froglets to!


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Small update, got my fan and fan controller ready to go! Ended up buying the fan filters rather than building. The fan controller most likely not going to be on a timer. The goal is to have a gentle breeze circulating the air in the viv all the time.



















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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Encyclia said:


> Sounds like a good store to sell your future froglets to!


Exactly! It's nice having such an awesome store just a couple blocks away from me. They usually have quite a few darts in their display tanks and usually the prices aren't to crazy either, just depends on the frogs I guess. 

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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Got the hardscape done, now for the planting!  










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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Really came together! You've created some really nice lines and balance... Looking forward to seeing it planted.


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Here is round 1 of the planting  It has become obvious that I need a better light than a single CFL on a 30 inch tall tank. I'm pretty set on getting the planted plus for this tank, we will see how it does compared to the CFL. I don't plan on having any plants on the ground besides the peperomia, so light reaching the bottom isn't a major concern for me.










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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

It's really hard to take a decent picture of this tank.. It looks alot better in person, just can't capture the depth. Anyways, I think I need a decent vine for the background. Thinking about ficus pumila minima. What do you all think? 

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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

zachary.t.timoth said:


> Got the hardscape done, now for the planting!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bro you used jungle zilla for the background huh? Nicely done. Told ya that stuff is awesome and it'll stay moist. Tank looks great by the way!


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Thanks! Yeah man, the stuff works great. It actually holds moisture alot better than I expected. Now it's time to get some frogs in there! Good thing there is a reptile expo in my area this weekend 

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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Had some extra glass after the build so I made a quick nano tank.  Will be great for growing java moss for the 20g! Dimensions are 6x6x11









(Tank is curing upside down)

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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

I got frogs! Decided on a trio of leucs after talking to the breeders at the expo today  Super excited about it, these frogs are gorgeous! 



















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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

What kinda leucs are those?


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

They are just standard leucs, nothing special. But man these guys are super social! They are all over the tank and hop up to the glass every time I walk into the room. 

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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Very unique looking standard leuc then I guess (I'm still new to this so maybe I just haven't seen that variation yet and it's more common than I think).


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Well, last night was interesting... The silicone on the bottom piece of glass failed on me. Luckily it didn't completely break off causing a big disaster. The only real mess was from the water in the false bottom leaking out. I had to move the frogs into a temporary tank to fix it, ended up using epoxy on the glass this time. I can already tell epoxy is the way to go on these tanks. For future reference I will be building tanks with a small amount of silicone on the inside glass where it sits on the rim of the tank only for the seal, and epoxy everywhere else. Not taking chances with that stuff again. 









Stupid silicone...

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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Ya silicone doesn't like smooth plastic for some reason (even though it loves smooth glass). Roughing it up really well would have been an options but certainly a good epoxy will give you much more piece of mind.


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Yeah, I honestly didn't even think about it sticking to the plastic. It held onto the glass really well though. After using the epoxy I feel like that seam will NEVER come loose again, it feels super sturdy. Next time, I will for sure be roughing up the plastic and using epoxy..

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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

On a positive note, I got my cultures situated and started!  I will be expanding the cultures a little bit when I get more supplies in the mail, but for now this will do. I started tropical springtails, hydeii, and melanogaster. Will be doing isopods in the future as well. This is my first time culturing anything so it's a little daunting. I made a couple trays out of aluminum foil, and filled it will diatomaceous earth. The cultures are raised and spaced apart with these little plastic toys I found that seem to work awesome. What do you guys think? 










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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Got a new light fixture today! Went with the finnex planted plus on this tank along side with a CFL. I've always been a big fan of finnex lights and as usual I love this one as well. It produces a decent level of light and I love the color. There still isn't a lot of light reaching the bottom but I don't mind, I will likely only have leaf litter on bottom in the future. 




















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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Meh Idk if that enough of a floor plan for terrestrial darts like Leucs. 
For a trio of Leucs you'd want a 20 long laying horizontal. 
Verts are more for thumbnails and whatnot.


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## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Honestly I have an extra 40b I've thought about building for them. They spend the majority of their time in the upper half of the tank anyways so I haven't really bothered. They seem pretty content to me. In the future this tank will likely house a pair of amazonica. 

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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Meh Idk if that enough of a floor plan for terrestrial darts like Leucs.
> For a trio of Leucs you'd want a 20 long laying horizontal.
> Verts are more for thumbnails and whatnot.


I thought that the general consensus was that Leucs are more arboreal? A 20L non-converted would be much too short for really any frogs, and 20G is really much too small for a trio IMHO considering the minimum 10 gallon per frog rule.

Just my 2 cents


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

I've always heard they are terrestrial as far as floor space needs but will use as much vertical as you give them.


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