# man creek / almirante



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

So I'm saving up to get the mate for my female man creek. now.... I was told that when the shipment (at least of this particular batch my female is from) came in they were labeled as man creek/ Almirante/ and strawberry. The male I'm looking at is labeled as strawberry. I'm not trying to cross morphs, but I'm under the impression that these are just the same morph labeled as 3 different morphs. Can anyone give me evidence to the contrary? The only difference that I can see is that the female looks more red-orange than the pic from the place I plan on acquiring the male from. At this point I'm attributing that to either genetic diversity or age.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

pdp ja o7 almirante 
for reference
good reading http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/28725-new-1-1-o-pumilio-black-jeans.html


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## Exoticdarts (Sep 14, 2006)

What you have is just a red/strawberry Pumilio and not a Man Creek or Almirante. If the seller is listing it as a strawberry Pumilio chances are it is from the recent import and you will have what you are looking for. 

The true Almirante's are listed as LR-07 an JA-07's that came in from SNDF in 07 

Kevin


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

ok so i read the attached thread. i believe it was you that had replied as to my request for locality data of the man creek female. still no luck. however... is the conclusion that they are 2 different in that post? i know that the person I got the female from said that the shipment was very diverse with some grey some black and some even quite blue legs. mine has very little grey/blue on the bottom of her thighs and grey toes. 

just want to find her a mate. and i want it to be the right morph. 
im looking at these 

Josh's Frogs - Dendrobates Pumilio 'Strawberry' - Poison Dart Frogs

to pair with my female since he said he would try to pull a calling male out for me. 
and because im not looking to spend more than 100-130. (i am a student and i have to budget expenses.

and im fairly certian the female is a man creek if thats what you are saying kevin. look at new atachments


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## Exoticdarts (Sep 14, 2006)

somecanadianguy said:


> pdp ja o7 almirante


How or why did you suggest bringing up JA-07's in this?

The JA's don't even come close in the way of looks to what has been imported in the US recently. Only ones even close are the LR-07's. I should know, we have the largest collection of both in the US of this specific Pumilio.

james67,

You don't have a Man Creek what you have is a 08 import that came in by the hundreds and sold to resellers all over the US. Anyone can look at a photo and say, yep, it looks like it so it must be. That's the problem nowadays. Everyone is assuming too much. Don't follow the trend.

When we sell a frog from our facility, it is accompanied by breeder info or site data. 
We know where our Pumilio come from and like to keep it that way. 

Josh will be your best bet for the RED Pumilio at this time.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

going by looks alone your frog in the 2 pics and the ones for sale at josh's are not the same visually at least , i have seen lots of pics labled man creeks that look very similar ie grey feet to yours but could not tell you any import info sorry 
craig 
ps if u find any info pass it along i love these morphs


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

Exoticdarts said:


> How or why did you suggest bringing up JA-07's in this?
> 
> The JA's don't even come close in the way of looks to what has been imported in the US recently. Only ones even close are the LR-07's. I should know, we have the largest collection of both in the US of this specific Pumilio.
> 
> ...


kevin my point was man creeks and almirante are not the same frogs and should not be mixed, and look at the title of the thread thats why i brought it up
cheers 
craig
hey do u do international shipments?
ie canada


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Ok kevin don't take this the wrong way but... i know you think you know that that frog is an 08 import but the frog in the pics has been in the US for over 3 years. it came in through Miami (first through "Jose at 2 amigos" and then to "extreme reptile" and was owned by a reputable breeder i trust, not some un-knowledgeable [email protected]$$ at a pet store. so thanks for your assessment, but its wrong. 

i think you may have the posts confused as my man creek female is the post with two attachments and it is MOST CERTAINLY an 08 import. 
also please do not assume that i am someone in the hobby who "follows trends". if that were the case i wouldn't have posted this thread. i am dedicated to the animals i own, their health, safety, and preservation of their status in the hobby as well as the wild.

also, Kevin i noticed that your signature has an e-mail address that reads "[email protected]" i may be wrong but isn't it supposed to be GMAIL? just thought I'd throw that out so you don't miss out on emails from your customers etc..

now the original question was.... " I'm under the impression that these are just the same morph labeled as 3 different morphs. Can anyone give me evidence to the contrary?"

so can anyone give me a particularly good reason why they think that the 04-05 import of my man creek and one of josh's strawberrys are from different locales?

I'm not opposed to the idea that they are but until someone gives me a definite answer i will have to assume that certain people in the hobby are listing these as different morphs when in-fact they are not. (this has happened before, and we all make mistakes)


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## Ridge (Jun 7, 2004)

I have no locale evidence for you but...since you know the import info of your frog, why don't you just look for another one of the same import to insure that you have the best chance of a frog from the same locale. I've seen this debated in posts since the original 04 shipment and I don't think anyone came up with a clear answer. My hope is that we (as a community) are doing a better job at requesting detailed info on any incoming imports going forward.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i will try to find one from the same import. she was paired with a male from the same import but it apparently died. i have a feeling that it will be incredibly difficult to find a proven male from that import. if any one reads this and has one please contact me via PM. i posted awhile back and looking for locality data, to have more detailed info for the asn paperwork, (as i am very interested in joining) and got only one response that told me to contact twi. which i do not know how to do. there seems to be no contact info on the twi site. so at this point the next best thing (or so i believe) is to find a frog that would be analogous to the female but a more recent import. which is where the Q came in.
Is there REALLY a difference between almirante, mancreek, and the strawberry frogs offered by joshsfrogs ? 
not speculation on weather or not they are but factual information.

you know, sometimes a Q on the internet seems to bring up more confusion than answers. and i know that most folks on here are not experts. so confusion on locality data is inevitable. 

thank you all for the help thus far and i hope to receive more feedback regarding this.

james


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

james67 said:


> Is there REALLY a difference between almirante, mancreek, and the strawberry frogs offered by joshsfrogs ?


Give me until next fall and I'll hopefully have an answer for you. It's my opinion that there is no difference between the two, but then again, that is my professional opinion. Depending on what exactly my thesis research looks at, I'll likely be importing toe samples of the morphs I'm looking at (including Robalo and Uyama). That will take me past the Man Creek locale, and if I'm able to import toes, I'll collect some from Man Creek to compare to the Almirante that I already have.

If I had to guess, I'd say that there will be some differences base pair differences between the two populations, but are they distinct? I doubt it. So at that point, we get to the ethical discussion of "is it worthwhile to conserve those couple base pairs?" With any luck, I'll get enough toe samples to see if there is more variation within the population than between populations.

Right now, I would play it safe and try to find a male that was in the same import, but I think that the data will show that they're the same morph. Josh didn't know where his frogs came from, so he labeled them as strawberries, and in that case, I wouldn't mix just because there is no locality data, but in the case of Man Creek and Almirante, there is at least some locality data.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i have a feeling that you are right on with that assumption. i too believe that they are the same morph. but who knows i guess we'll see. and unfortunately i would like to start breeding my female as soon as possible since she was a wc specimen that has already been in captivity for at least 3 years and who knows how long in the wild. so waiting a year is not an option I'm considering at the moment. as the pum females mature the general consensus is that they produce less. so the sooner i can get a male the better. but keep me posted on your research. anything pumilio related is excites me.


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