# 2nd day shipping for frogs?



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Before commenting,go here, and check out the performance of this packaging...
http://www.mnthermalscience.com/prod_platelet.htm

What I have been wondering is...if you can absolutely be assured of safe temps for the duration of the shipment, would 2nd day shipments be "safe" and would doing so be accepted by the PDF community in general?
I wonder about that, because the package linked to has a tare weight of 9lbs, and my packaging is around the same size, but is more like 4-5 lbs, but still costs me>$55 for an overnight shipment. I can only speculate what shipping the 9lb package would be, since Fedex's rate calculator is way off in my experience, and with the rate of shipping only getting higher, you can see where I am going.
I also don't know what this packaging would cost, but if I were to go with it, it would be a return, and possibly with a deposit sort of deal, so even if it were to cost >$100, it would be worth it, for the saftey of the animals, and so I can sleep at night :wink: 
I'm not planning on starting to do 2nd day shipments, but I am considering this packing route, but at the same time, I am looking to the future, where overnight shipping can cost more than the frogs ordered.

Some thoughts...
Would there be enough oxygen? I would think probably.
Just plain too much time in the dark, bounced around, no food?
How much time do frogs being imported from SA or Europe spend in a box?
What do you all think?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

That's pretty impressive. I guess I'd be curious to see how much you would really save on shipping being a 9lb package. I'd be even more curious to know what that black inner box is made of so that we could just make it ourselves


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Frogs in the dark kind of go into a "resting state", a friend of mine brought back frogs from Europe once and had accumulated them over 7 or 8 days time, he left them all in a dark box and did nothing to them, all were 100% fine when put into their tanks over a week later. If you can assure temps are good you will have no problems
By the way I always use Express Mail at the post office, my last 2 shipments were under $25 and both arrived the next day in 100% good shape.
Mark


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

I'm curious how delicate the vacuum seal is. I wonder how many times you could ship the box before it was in such bad shape that the vacuum didn't work anymore.



> By the way I always use Express Mail at the post office, my last 2 shipments were under $25 and both arrived the next day in 100% good shape.


I offered my customers last year the choice between UPS and USPS for shipping frogs. The majority chose UPS even though it is substantially higher in price.


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## amphibianfreak (Jul 21, 2004)

Just wanted to share....

About 2 years ago (this coming august) I had a few somewhat delicate frogs sent to me from what I though was a reputable breeder. They were to be sent USPS overnight. Overnight turned into 2 day, 2 day turned into the package being lost....Finally after a lot of calling USPS the package was "found" and finally got to me 3 days after being sent. Now, the frogs were alive (panguana lamasi) but it was not do to the packaging. The packaging was horrible. Single cardboard box, no styro reinforcement, frogs were place in a 32oz ff container with nothing to prevent them from being jostled. Upon receipt, the paper towel that was at one point damp was completly dry. So, i guess even under the worst packaging conditions and moderate temps, 2 day should not be a problem... I still have the frogs to this day with no ill effects...


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

gary1218 said:


> That's pretty impressive. I guess I'd be curious to see how much you would really save on shipping being a 9lb package. I'd be even more curious to know what that black inner box is made of so that we could just make it ourselves


Well, I am considering doing that, the black box, I'm pretty sure is just a double walled plastic container with phase change material inside it.
But that is only part of the performance equation.
The other part is the vacum panels...I have no idea how to make them, and they are a key element...if I remember correctly, vacum has an insulating value of R-30 per inch, whereas the next best thing that is commonly available only offers about R-5 per inch.
As for the longevity of the vacum panels...that would be something to consider, if you look on the website they do mention replacement panels.
I requested a quote, and I'll see what happens.

As for express mail, I have used it, it works pretty well, as long as you pay attention to whether or not they will guarantee overnight.
I can't ship overnight via usps from here, instead I have to drive them about 90 miles (one way) to the terminal, and with gas supposed to gradually creep back up to >$3 a gallon, it is just as cheap to have fedex pick them up here, and they actually spend less time in the box.
What is nice about usps express is they don't charge dimensional weight, so if you go the double box route, it won't cost an arm and a leg.


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## Tim F (Jan 27, 2006)

Given a choice, I'll always choose overnight - regardless of the cost of the frogs. This way, if I don't receive my package by 10:30 am the next morning, I'll know to start tracing it right away, which could possibly add a day. However if something goes wrong with a 2 day... 

If I had no choice, I don't think that 2 day only shipping would prevent me from buying. I'd just make sure that I understood the live guarantee policy and hope for a timely shipment.


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## markc019 (Apr 12, 2005)

I will not take a risk of shipping anything other than overnight... packages get lost and things happen! I just don't want to gamble with the lives of the frogs.. But to all of you with good success with 2+ day shipping I hope it continues.. Good packing is always key ..


~Mark


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Even in perfect conditions I would not try it or recommend it. Packages are lost way too often to even play with 2nd day shipping for animals. Also you never know exactly where they will sit for that day...a hot truck, a cold warehouse.... etc etc. It just increases the possibility of problems.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Yeah, but the point is, with these types of containers it wouldn't really matter where they sat for that day, which is why teh idea came up. The phase change materials are tested at well beyond our specs (usually in negative temps or in temps above 90) and hold the temp around the target area for extended periods of time. That's the beauty and I thin why Brian is interested in this. It takes the danger of temperature out of the equation, but there are still things to consider like will there be enough O2 in the container for that period, how will the frogs react to being contained for that long , etc. The worries of temp fluctuations is what the phase change material eliminates. Now, if you end up going over two days then it becomes a little different story so those concerns are valid, but where the box sits shouldn't be. Honestly, even with great technology like this i doubt any of us are going to think it's a good idea to ship frogs in negative temperatures so if these will hold up to that I am pretty sure it can hold up to the limits that we would use them for.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Per my comments above I would never advocate shipping frogs in a 2 day service. Based on temps I don't believe there would be a problem, I have seen more than 1 shipment take 2 days when it was supposed to be overnight and never saw ill effects. 
We are not shipping plants here folks nor are we large importers where the bottom line expense is the priority. I think these delicate animals need to handled with the respect they deserve!


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I agree that they deserve the best you can afford, and for the near future, I will always request next day, with a hold at terminal.

I thought I would ask, because the thought has been brought up before, (I think in a thread complaining about the rising costs of shipping) by someone else, and no discussion ensued. I also seen 2day suggested by one of the makers of the high end packing materials, and their bread and butter is with medical products, a little more important than frogs!

Just keeping an eye to the not so distant future.

When is the last time you sent or received a same day shipment, and how often is that going on?
Not very often, (even though they deserve first class :wink: ) because most people don't want to spend the $, and most think it is not necessary...

At the rates the way they are now, a package packed well for summer or winter extremes can easily creep towards $100 for overnight if you're not careful, and rates will only continue to rise.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

To further rock the boat...
If I were purchasing frogs, I'm thinking I would rather have them spend 2 days in the box I linked to, than the packaging many of the big breeders use (with no problems).
To demonstrate, here is a performance chart of the "norm" packing...a molded 1.5" thick cooler, with styro peanuts, no gel or heat pack, stuck in the fridge for testing.
Keep in mind the ambient environment temperature difference is a good 50F between the "super" box, and what most use now.








Less than 2 hours to fall to an ambient temperature in the 40's is hardly what I'd call good!


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Another thing to think about is the stress to the animals, of being jarred around and etc.

Im sure there is a way to pack them where it would not be a issue, but I think other factors still make me stick with overnight. Also im not sure most peoples packing is as bad as some claim. I have yet to receive frogs poorly packed from anyone and most people use the solid mister box containers which are very well insulated.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

bbrock said:


> A good percentage of the frogs I've shipped have gone on 2-day trips with never a loss. USPS Express mail is only guaranteed next day from/to certain locations and I've always lived far enough from a hub that rarely is next day guaranteed. I'd say maybe 40% of what I've shipped has spent 2 days enroute (which only adds up to maybe a half dozen shipments so consider the samle size there) but no losses. I did have one frog that was reported to seem stressed from a shipment and waned into oblivion within a couple weeks. But that was a shipment that arrived next day.
> 
> I also know this has been discussed, but I often question whether 2 days in a box is still not better than 4-5 days + being hand carried to an event like IAD. There is a lot of transport, transfer, loud noises, and additional stressors that those frogs are exposed to. Just something I've been thinking hard about after seeing the obvious stress on the blue jeans I carried to Baltimore last year.


Bumping this post up, as the issue has presented itself with the recent surge in shipping costs.

I've had a number of packages (fedex) that ended up being 2nd day, and the frogs arrived fine, one of the first years I was shipping, there was a package that arrived 2nd day (usps) that had one doa (only one ever).
I'm guessing when overnight shipping goes over triple digits...people will start to consider 2nd day.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Brian

You are correct that we will need to reconsider this option and as Brent has commented on recently as well, compared to 3-5days of traveling for shows like IAD, is 2days such a big deal? May in fact be less stress than some other options. 

I suspect that the majority of the time spent in 2day shipping routes is down time in which our precious cargo simply sits safely idle, waiting.

So for anyone wishing to purchase frogs from me , I will now offer 2day cheap shipping via Fedex or USPS at buyers risk, no guarantee other than to state my reputation that at least the frogs will start out healthy and be properly packaged. 

or you can pay for overnight and the live arrival guarantee  of course.

S


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> So for anyone wishing to purchase frogs from me , I will now offer 2day cheap shipping via Fedex or USPS at buyers risk, no guarantee other than to state my reputation that at least the frogs will start out healthy and be properly packaged.


Good for you Shawn. Glad to see someone taking the lead on this. We definately need to move in this direction IMO. 

Another consideration, as a group we should become more active in the combining of orders where possible. One thing this hobby requires, in order to be successful over the long haul, is patience. For myself, I would have no problem waiting a couple more months or so, in order to share the shipping costs with another nearby frogger. I've had good success with doing this.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Not to mention, the larger the package, the more stable (temp wise) the interior can be.

I really do worry for the inexpensive, and even the borderline inexpensive frogs due to the high shipping costs.

I'll probably offer 2nd day shipping as well, when I start shipping again.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

It seems we have a lot of variables to weigh on deciding on shipping methods. Let's just forget about price for a minute even though it is a major concern. But what is left to consider it substantial

1. Stress from number of days enroute - probably actually longest with hand carrying. Overnight shipping is best.
2. Labeling - Delta Dash and USPS will ship live animals labeled as such. FedEx if you become a registered shipper (or whatever that was).
3. Live delivery guarantee - I believe only Delta Dash offers that.
4. Temperature fluctuations - Obviously packaging matters. But hand carrying usually provides the most control regardless of lenght of travel. Overnight would be next best.
5. Legallity - mislabeling packages of live animals may get you in trouble.

There are probably others but every shipping method has advantages over others. There is no clear "best" solution eve if we ignore cost. I still don't like to ship during cold or hot weather. I would be pretty nervous shipping a 2-day package during a Montana winter or a Texas summer. Perhaps super packaging would make it okay but I would still worry. Two-day shipping during mild weather? No problem.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Yeah, that is the frustrating thing...the fact that the bulky extreme weather package is the one that costs the big bucks to ship...and to take a step back, and ship it 2 day...it don't make a whole lot of sense. 

Probably only a realistic option in the spring or fall.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I am not sure we can consider 1 day more or less stressful than 2 dya. Now of course it impossible to ever know but I would consider the time in the box less stressful than when they are packed and unpacked. Do we understand their ability to see in the dark? I would expect they do not see in the dark well, so the lack of light could actually be calming. Though the constant movement of the box may not be.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Just an observation, some of the more skittish darts (the ones that turn into ping pong balls) calm right down when the lights go down or the lid on the cooler shuts.

I wonder just how much o2 a frog needs to maintain for 2-3 days?


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Anyone remember this thread?
Not hijacking, just duration measure.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=29274&highlight=shipping


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