# Pro Mix Orchid Mix?



## Elisa (Jan 5, 2016)

Hello,

I'm trying to figure out the substrate for my first dart frog vivarium, and I'm leaning towards an ABG-style mix. 

Unfortunately some of the ingredients are rather hard to find, especially in winter. I can't find any place that sells fir bark or lump charcoal, except giant bags of it.

Would it work if I used Pro Mix Orchid Mix (charcoal, fir bark and perlite), combined with peat, sphagnum and tree fern fiber? Would the perlite be likely to hurt the frogs, or will it be ok after I cover the substrate in sphagnum and leaf litter?

Thanks!


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

I do believe that many here use perlite in their substrate, and with adequate leaf litter, they likely won't even come into contact with it either way.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

jarteta97 said:


> I do believe that many here use perlite in their substrate, and with adequate leaf litter, they likely won't even come into contact with it either way.


Josh's Frogs "ABG Mix" is full of perlite. They claim it's safe. Though I remember for years of people telling members to avoid perlite at all costs due to impaction risks or soemthing. 
I still used it in my vivs but I added tree fern fibers to it.


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## PartyFrog (Jan 8, 2016)

Where do you buy tree fern fiber? I didn't see any of that at either Lowes or Home Depot.


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

If you're having significant trouble making ABG or the like, you may consider Turface. I use it as a stand-alone substrate, and it works pretty well. Some plants may need some help rooting in it. This is remedied by putting a handful of sphagnum around the roots, and burying this newly-wrapped portion into the Turface.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

PartyFrog said:


> Where do you buy tree fern fiber? I didn't see any of that at either Lowes or Home Depot.


You won't find it at big box stores. Only online. I got mine from Glass Box Tropicals on eBay

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## Elisa (Jan 5, 2016)

I got my tree fern fiber at a pet store.

I've heard about the turface method but I don't actually know where I could buy turface locally...


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

There are other names it goes by, such as "infield conditioner" and "Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil". Aquarium fluorite is another alternative.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Elisa said:


> I got my tree fern fiber at a pet store.
> 
> I've heard about the turface method but I don't actually know where I could buy turface locally...


Was it the Exo Terra tree fern fiber?


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## HDBENSON (Jan 1, 2016)

Kitty litter is very similar to turface, perhaps the same. In planted aquarium culture it serves the same purpose as fluorite and turface. Both are simply volcanic ash that has been weathered and compacted for thousands of years. Both are also cheap as crap!


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

HDBENSON said:


> Kitty litter is very similar to turface, perhaps the same. In planted aquarium culture it serves the same purpose as fluorite and turface. Both are simply volcanic ash that has been weathered and compacted for thousands of years. Both are also cheap as crap!


Won't kitty litter just dissolve and turn to clay?


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## Elisa (Jan 5, 2016)

Yes, the tree fern I found is Exo Terra brand. 

I just had to buy litter for my cats today, so I'm going to test some out in a tupperware to see what it's like wet...


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Elisa said:


> Yes, the tree fern I found is Exo Terra brand.
> 
> I just had to buy litter for my cats today, so I'm going to test some out in a tupperware to see what it's like wet...


For some reason you can't get that here in the US. The litter will just clump together

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## Elisa (Jan 5, 2016)

Haha that's gotta be the one thing we have up here you can't get in the States...


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## Elisa (Jan 5, 2016)

Unfortunately the "unscented" No Name cat litter still smelled kinda perfumey when I wet it, so I don't think it's safe. I think I'll stick with the ABG mix idea.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

HDBENSON said:


> Kitty litter is very similar to turface, perhaps the same. In planted aquarium culture it serves the same purpose as fluorite and turface. Both are simply volcanic ash that has been weathered and compacted for thousands of years. Both are also cheap as crap!


Turface has been fired and takes decades to break down. Kitty Litter has not been fired and takes 5 minutes to break down. Big Difference.  



Elisa said:


> I got my tree fern fiber at a pet store.
> 
> I've heard about the turface method but I don't actually know where I could buy turface locally...


According to the website, There are 3 in Montreal. Seeing as this company also has a warehouse near me (and are very reliable in my experience), It's highly likely they'll have it. I'd call ahead first just in case.

Plant Products QC
3370 Le Corbusier
Chomedey, Laval

If I'm not mistaken, I think this is just off of either HWY 440 or 15 (or both).

It only comes in 50# bags though, so make sure you have a use for the rest... Like more tanks


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

boabab95 said:


> It only comes in 50# bags though, so make sure you have a use for the rest... Like more tanks


Or springtail cultures. They love the air pockets.


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## roktman (Apr 10, 2013)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Josh's Frogs "ABG Mix" is full of perlite. They claim it's safe. Though I remember for years of people telling members to avoid perlite at all costs due to impaction risks or soemthing.
> I still used it in my vivs but I added tree fern fibers to it.



FWIW, I just bought a few bags of Josh's ABG. The perlite is there but they are boulders  compared with what you find in potting soil. I'll try to pick some out and take a pic...


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Elisa said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm trying to figure out the substrate for my first dart frog vivarium, and I'm leaning towards an ABG-style mix.
> 
> ...


That's what I use as my "ABG" mix. I have not observed any ill effects. If you are worried about the perlite, you might be able to put the whole mix into a 5 gallon bucket of water, seems like the perlite would floats. You might have to sort out the bark first I guess. It might float too. But anyway I haven't seen any ill effects of the perlite.

Edit: the brand I get is this: BETTER-GRO 8-Quart Organic Phalaenopsis Mix Soil


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

tardis101 said:


> That's what I use as my "ABG" mix. I have not observed any ill effects. If you are worried about the perlite, you might be able to put the whole mix into a 5 gallon bucket of water, seems like the perlite would floats. You might have to sort out the bark first I guess. It might float too. But anyway I haven't seen any ill effects of the perlite.
> 
> Edit: the brand I get is this: BETTER-GRO 8-Quart Organic Phalaenopsis Mix Soil


Nope it doesn't float and nor does the bark well not in my experience anyways.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Nope it doesn't float and nor does the bark well not in my experience anyways.


I just dumped a whole bag into a 5 gallon bucket, with about 2 gallons of water. The perlite definitely floats and a fair bit of the bark does too.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

tardis101 said:


> I just dumped a whole bag into a 5 gallon bucket, with about 2 gallons of water. The perlite definitely floats and a fair bit of the bark does too.


Ah well I did the same and it didn't float for me. Maybe a few pieces here and there but not all of it, not enough to separate them out


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Ah well I did the same and it didn't float for me. Maybe a few pieces here and there but not all of it, not enough to separate them out


Wow... i don't know then.  Maybe it has to do with water parameters? I have really hard water.


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