# 37G Forest Floor



## hydrophyte

*37G Forest Floor*

I have a start on a new setup that for a Marineland 37G. This tank has a nice shape with a 18" X 20" footprint and 24" height.

This setup will be mainly for showcasing plants and I haven't given much thought to livestock yet. I don't have any frogs here I will not have the time and space anytime soon for tending frogs. I had pondered _Geosesarma_ sp. crabs. I have found conflicting information about them, but it sounds as though they really do best with a real water feature, and there won't be space for that. I might add mantids if I can get some going later on and if the setup looks right for them.

This is a shot of another tank that I set up at our local children's museum. This is the same model aquarium and I might also be a similar stand for this new project.










I do have some cool plants in mind. I mainly want to use real terrestrials, although I will also include a tree root feature where I can plant a few orchids or climbing aroids too. I'm setting it all up with a Forest Floor Terrarium false bottom assembly like I'm using in my 30 High...


----------



## frogparty

As long as there are unobstructed areas for them to molt then mantids would be awesome in that tank. You could put a dozen or more ghosts in there


----------



## hydrophyte

That would be cool to have a big group of them, so long as they don't eat each other.


----------



## hydrophyte

I'm pondering building a feature to look like the stilt roots of a _Socratea_ palm, like this...










(File:Socratea exorriza2002 03 12.JPG - Wikimedia Commons)

...and I wonder about using this stuff to form the roots...

Google: caulk backing

Can you imagine any issues with that? I'll seal it up real good probably with Zinsser Watertite.


----------



## skanderson

the only trouble i would see with using the backer rod is that it is fairly flexible. if you wanted something stiffer but still somewhat flexible you could use the in floor heating piping. it comes in 3 or 4 different diameters and is pretty cheap. i was going to use it for roots and vines but it is a pain to get them to look decent so i just cut a bunch of cedar.


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks. Actually I intend to use some thick aluminum wire skewered through the backer rod to give it stiffness and so that I can bend it into shapes. I only had a shot piece of wire handy but I found it was real easy to drive it through the foam and I made a piece more than 12" long that way.

I hope that I can get a pretty good finish with the Zinsser. That stuff goes on so thick that with enough coats it starts to smooth contours and seal up seams pretty well.


----------



## hydrophyte

...posting this link here before I forget it...

Basic Arboreal Tarantula Husbandry | TARANTULAS.com


----------



## hydrophyte

The more I look the more I like the idea of using an arboreal tarantula. I found a page all about those _Avicularia_ spp...

Avicularia species descriptions

I bet one of those would really like a feature like those stilt roots. An important questions would be how compatible they would be with some of the plants that I have in mind. The smallest _Avicularia_ are about 4", which is still going to be pretty heavy and if they climb on plants it would them down.


----------



## hydrophyte

Well apparently some of the _smallest_ tarantulas in captivity are of various _Cyriocosmus_ species. Some of them are really beautiful. Just look...

Google: _Cyriocosmus_

They are New World rainforest spiders, so they would conform to the general biotope idea that I have in mind. They are terrestrial, not arboreal.

Another article about arboreals that I found...

http://www.thebts.co.uk/New%20World%20Arboreal%20Tarantulas.htm


----------



## BurnsinTX

What kind of lighting do you have on that 30H if you don't mind? I like the look of it.


----------



## frogparty

Pooh I think you need Avicularia metallica!


----------



## hydrophyte

frogparty said:


> Pooh I think you need Avicularia metallica!


What do you think would those spiders make a mess with lots of webbing and trampling plants? And will I get bored with them because they hide all day?


----------



## frogparty

They will web the hell out of it. And sit still all day. I doubt they'll crush bromeliads but maybe more delicate plants. 

Ghost mantis sit pretty still most of the time too, but the flower mantids are a lot more active


----------



## hydrophyte

BurnsinTX said:


> What kind of lighting do you have on that 30H if you don't mind? I like the look of it.


This thing, minus the stand....

http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-2-Foot-Start-Light-System/dp/B0006856EQ

...easy, cheap and bright!


----------



## hydrophyte

frogparty said:


> They will web the hell out of it. And sit still all day. I doubt they'll crush bromeliads but maybe more delicate plants.
> 
> Ghost mantis sit pretty still most of the time too, but the flower mantids are a lot more active


I have seen a few pictures and videos where the _Avicularia_ had built their webs up bear the top of the enclosure. So I wonder If I were to make a stilt root feature maybe they would put their web up inside the roots, which would be the most protected area in the viv and also higher up(???). That way it wouldn't get all over the plants that I plant underneath.










(File:Socratea exorriza2002 03 12.JPG - Wikimedia Commons)


----------



## frogparty

Only one way to find out...


----------



## hydrophyte

Well I just, again , ran into the article in the June 2009 _TFH_ about tangerine-head crabs (_Geosesarma krathing_). It sounds as though this one might be the most arboreal in genus and maybe they don't require such a big water feature. This setup just has a little puddle for them...

Geosesarma krathing vivarium

But, I can't find any evidence that they have made it to the US for sale.


----------



## frogparty

I love Geosearma! I've never seen that species, but they look great. If they are arboreal that would be awesome!


----------



## hydrophyte

Yeah the main constraint is that this setup won't ahve room for much of a water feature. If I can just provide a dish with water towards the back that might work. But like I say I don't know if this species has become available here or not. 

The vampire crab _Geosesarma_ are bigger and apparently they really do best with a larger water feature with some water circulation.


----------



## hydrophyte

I finally got around to cutting the plate for this thing...










I might go pick up the tank tomorrow, and then I'm going to start working on the cabinet.


----------



## EPI

hydrophyte said:


> The more I look the more I like the idea of using an arboreal tarantula. I found a page all about those _Avicularia_ spp...
> 
> Avicularia species descriptions
> 
> I bet one of those would really like a feature like those stilt roots. An important questions would be how compatible they would be with some of the plants that I have in mind. The smallest _Avicularia_ are about 4", which is still going to be pretty heavy and if they climb on plants it would them down.


Avicularia spp live in bromeliads in Venezuela. I saw that many times. Yes, they live in a web and stay in there during daytime. Pretty spiders!


----------



## hydrophyte

Do you think that in a viv they would web all over the place, or would they more likely keep it in one plant?


----------



## jkooiman

hydrophyte said:


> Yeah the main constraint is that this setup won't ahve room for much of a water feature. If I can just provide a dish with water towards the back that might work. But like I say I don't know if this species has become available here or not.
> 
> The vampire crab _Geosesarma_ are bigger and apparently they really do best with a larger water feature with some water circulation.


Brians Tropicals has Geosesarma notophorum, which are really similar in appearance and I believe habitat. I would be hesitant to provide a stagnant dish 100% of the time however. Maybe a simple airstone for gas exchange would work, or something along that line. 

http://www.panzerwelten.de/forum/thread-1043.html

I had a really good experience ordering from Brian, and plan to order some of these at some point in time. JVK


----------



## EPI

hydrophyte said:


> Do you think that in a viv they would web all over the place, or would they more likely keep it in one plant?


Mine built webs in the upper corner of the terrarium. The brom's they live in are about a foot high...some in smaller plants. Once the Avicularia has finished the web they will stay in there during the day and hunt for crickets at night time.


----------



## hydrophyte

EPI said:


> Mine built webs in the upper corner of the terrarium. The brom's they live in are about a foot high...some in smaller plants. Once the Avicularia has finished the web they will stay in there during the day and hunt for crickets at night time.


I think I am just going to go ahead and put together a little setup and get some kind of _Avicularia_. It might work for this current display setup or I might be able to use it later on. It sounds as though a simple enclosure for the spider to live in won't be too difficult. 



jkooiman said:


> Brians Tropicals has Geosesarma notophorum, which are really similar in appearance and I believe habitat. I would be hesitant to provide a stagnant dish 100% of the time however. Maybe a simple airstone for gas exchange would work, or something along that line.
> 
> http://www.panzerwelten.de/forum/thread-1043.html
> 
> I had a really good experience ordering from Brian, and plan to order some of these at some point in time. JVK


What do you think about one quart of water refreshed as often as I can and with an airstone in it? Does that sound OK?


----------



## hydrophyte

...well I just looked more closely at that page you linked and that guy just provided a small dish with water and some Java moss for the _Geosesarma_.



EPI said:


> Mine built webs in the upper corner of the terrarium. The brom's they live in are about a foot high...some in smaller plants. Once the Avicularia has finished the web they will stay in there during the day and hunt for crickets at night time.


Which species did you keep?


----------



## EPI

hydrophyte said:


> ...well I just looked more closely at that page you linked and that guy just provided a small dish with water and some Java moss for the _Geosesarma_.
> 
> 
> 
> Which species did you keep?


I had A. avicularia, A. versicolor and A. metallica. Versicolor is the most beautiful one of those!

Fred


----------



## josh_r

I have kept many species of tarantula over the years. Tarantulas were my thing for about 16 years. If you are looking for something arboreal that will not destroy things in the viv and will not web it to death, I would highly recommend a poecilotheria of some sorts or lampropelma violaceopes. They are fairly clean and very beautiful. Despite their larger size, they are slender and much more agile and I don't believe they would cause much damage to a well planted and established tank. Here are some pics

Poecilotheria regalis
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss19/Tapinauchenius/P-regalis25.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m200/xpo1/regalis.jpg

Poecilotheria Subfusca
do not fear spiders

Poecilotheria metallica
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/the.tarantula.store/gal-P.metallica1.jpg
http://www.thespidershop.co.uk/insect/images/P_mettalica_Main.jpg

Lampropelma violaceopes
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_GotqJR18e...hozZPjmmgsY/s1600/lampropelma-violaceopes.jpg
http://www.swiftinverts.com/pix/Singablu.jpg

If you want something smaller, check these out

Avicularia minatrix
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/058/9/7/Avicularia_minatrix_by_TiogaWhiteTiger.jpg
http://www.birdspiders.com/gallery/...k 1903, female, n. Venezuela.jpg?m=1298766194

Holothele incei
http://petcenter.info/petcenterstore/images/Holothele colombia.jpg.jpg

Psalmopoeus irminia
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee17/rbdTs/Pirminia2_03.jpg

Heteroscodra maculata
http://www.pauki.ru/species/heteroscodra_maculata.jpg
http://vogelspinnen-lachendorf.yola...codra Maculata.jpg.opt479x638o0,0s479x638.jpg

My favorite are the genus cyriocosmus and the genus hapalopus. They are typically dwarf species with incredible colors. They are all burrowers and quite webby however. I have some really good tarantula contacts and can get my hands on just about anything you want for a ridiculously good deal. When you make up your mind, let me know and I'll do some digging for ya 

Josh


----------



## hydrophyte

Thank you so much for these tips! 

I really would like to figure out some kind of spider that might work in this particular setup, but it seems tricky. I have looked at _Poecilotheria_ some and that _Lampropelma_ you recommend is also really beautiful, but all the descriptions I have encountered describe both of those as aggressive and with painful bites. I intend for this setup to have a rich plant display and I don't want to have to worry about getting bitten every time I reach inside to work on something.

I like the sound of the _Avicularia_ some of the pictures and video that I saw showed enclosures with lots of webbing in upper corners. This is a fish tank that opens from the top and I will also have two fans blowing up there, so that seems like it would conflict.

Some of those dwarf brrowing terrestrials are really cool and I had already been checking out _Cyriocosmus_. You mention that they web a lot. Would they web all over much of the 18 X 20 floor of this setup, or might they keep it in one corner? I am using the false bottom plastic plate in here, so a burrowing spider would not be able to use much of the floor. If they could be happy with only one pint or so of substrate I could perhaps situate a couple of containers with burrowing substrate right in the false bottom, or in another container sitting on top. What do you think?


----------



## josh_r

I would hesitate putting such tiny burrowing species in your setup unless everything is a super tight fit. They would find their way under the false bottom otherwise. 

The cyriocosmus will burrow a lot and will only really web around the general vicinity of the burrow. As for the other spiders, yes they can be aggressive, especially violaceopes, but the poecilotheria on the other hand tend to be more shy and not near as aggressive. I have held many different pokies many times and never been bitten. They will want to hide more than anything when you go in to do gardening. As long as you provide the hiding place, they will feel secure. And have no reason to show aggression. 

Some other species that build very cool burrows are haplopelma lividum and ephebopus murinus. They build a really cool collar like funnel which they typically use leaves to construct. 

Ephebopus murinus
http://www.photoservice.com/volumeLR/phs_volume20110418/53843717_24144559/m_190071398_0.jpg
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

Some of the other ephebopus species are really nice too 

Haplopelma lividum make a collar like this
http://kryp.smugmug.com/Travels/Expedition-Thailand-2009/9/642322276_7JwBc-L.jpg

Pruning and tank maintenance will really not be an issue wih any species you chose as far a agression from the spiders as long as you provide a place to hide or burrow. One problem I do foresee should you choose an arboreal species is fecese. Most arboreal species project their feces some distance to clear their webs. This means it usually ends up on the glass and it becomes almost a daily chore if you want the aquarium to look good. 

One more thing, tarantulas are shy and nocturnal. If this is something you want to display, there won't be much to see. It will be like having a pet hole in the ground or a pet web in the corner. Your chances at actually seeing the spider once it gets settled in are at night when it is out waiting for prey to walk by.


----------



## josh_r

Here is a viv I set up for liphistius malayanus









They are a giant primitive trapdoor spider. I had about 8 of them in there









Another thing to consider are groups. Some species can be kept in small groups. Poecilotheria, avicularia, and holothele incei can be kept in groups

Holothele incei communal set up - Arachnofreaks Forum - Page 1

Here is a typical poecilotheria home in the wild
http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/Kaloula_&_Poecilotheria_1-7-2009.jpg

Supposedly monocentropus balfouri is communal too, but I have no experience with this spider
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...ers-sale-discounted-price-32new-mbalfouri.jpg


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks these are more great tips.

I hope I might be able to watch them if they move around at all after the tank lights are out, but the room lights are still on(?). I also wondered about setting it up with a blue moonlight or dawn-dusk lighting.

How much actual volume of substrate do you think a burrowing species would need? I wonder about sinking a container for burrowing into that false bottom.

Those _Poecilotheria_ really are cool and otherwise sound like a good fit, but I have read several scary accounts of their bites.


----------



## hydrophyte

...thanks again for this detailed information. We are headed out now for New Years, but I'll be back with more questions.


----------



## josh_r

Unless some new info has come out that I'm not aware of, it is just rumored that poecilotheria have a deadly bite. There is no concrete evidence that they are super bad. The couple cases of human death by a bite was linked to infection and allergic reaction. There are other species I would be more concerned about than poecilotheria. 

As for soil depth, most burrowers will require quite a bit of depth. If you want to go the route of a burrower, I suggest not doing a false bottom and doing something a little more permanent. With the depth the soil needs and the air flow required for the spiders, you should have no issues at all with soil saturation. You aren't going to want to mist every day like you would dart vivs. His will promote book lung infections that can kill your spider. The viv I posted above had no false bottom and the soil depth was quite deep in some parts. I would recommend replicating a road cut or a hillside. Many species like a sloped bank. The actual depth of soil needed will depend on the species you choose. 

As for lighting, any moonlight simulation or even red or blue LEDs would work great. They don't like bright direct light. They are very easy to observe at night. 

If you are interested in keeping some tarantulas, I have a bunch of slings right now. I could send you a few spiders to raise up. No cost, just pay shipping. 

Josh


----------



## frogparty

I've read some nasty bite accounts on arachnoboards. That being said I think Pokies are just about the most amazing spiders there are.


----------



## jkooiman

hydrophyte said:


> What do you think about one quart of water refreshed as often as I can and with an airstone in it? Does that sound OK?


I honestly couldn't tell you.I've got "vampires" and "red devils". All I know is I lost a few of the vampires for sure when I had them setup with a water bowl (though their deaths may have been totally unrelated to this). Seeings how G. krathing and G.notophorum are closely related, and krathing is the species that lives in pitchers, maybe notophorum is a more terrestrial species as well? Whatever the case, the spider idea looks cool, you'd never see the crabs anyways. JVK


----------



## josh_r

jkooiman said:


> I honestly couldn't tell you.I've got "vampires" and "red devils". All I know is I lost a few of the vampires for sure when I had them setup with a water bowl (though their deaths may have been totally unrelated to this). Seeings how G. krathing and G.notophorum are closely related, and krathing is the species that lives in pitchers, maybe notophorum is a more terrestrial species as well? Whatever the case, the spider idea looks cool, you'd never see the crabs anyways. JVK


You'd never see the spiders either. The crabs are pretty awesome as are the spiders. I think either way you go, it will be pretty sick!


----------



## jkooiman

josh_r said:


> You'd never see the spiders either. The crabs are pretty awesome as are the spiders. I think either way you go, it will be pretty sick!


I had some sort of huge, brown, ?Indonesian? trapdoor spider for quite awhile years ago, and yeah, I NEVER saw it. Though the trap was well worth it. And it was a really cool party favor!  JVK


----------



## hydrophyte

josh_r said:


> Here is a viv I set up for liphistius malayanus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are a giant primitive trapdoor spider. I had about 8 of them in there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing to consider are groups. Some species can be kept in small groups. Poecilotheria, avicularia, and holothele incei can be kept in groups
> 
> Holothele incei communal set up - Arachnofreaks Forum - Page 1
> 
> Here is a typical poecilotheria home in the wild
> http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/Kaloula_&_Poecilotheria_1-7-2009.jpg
> 
> Supposedly monocentropus balfouri is communal too, but I have no experience with this spider
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...ers-sale-discounted-price-32new-mbalfouri.jpg


Thanks for this additional great information. Yes I had thought about using a communal spider too. It sounds as though 37G is actually quite a bit of space for tarantulas, so maybe I could keep a few in this setup.



josh_r said:


> Unless some new info has come out that I'm not aware of, it is just rumored that poecilotheria have a deadly bite. There is no concrete evidence that they are super bad. The couple cases of human death by a bite was linked to infection and allergic reaction. There are other species I would be more concerned about than poecilotheria.
> 
> As for soil depth, most burrowers will require quite a bit of depth. If you want to go the route of a burrower, I suggest not doing a false bottom and doing something a little more permanent. With the depth the soil needs and the air flow required for the spiders, you should have no issues at all with soil saturation. You aren't going to want to mist every day like you would dart vivs. His will promote book lung infections that can kill your spider. The viv I posted above had no false bottom and the soil depth was quite deep in some parts. I would recommend replicating a road cut or a hillside. Many species like a sloped bank. The actual depth of soil needed will depend on the species you choose.
> 
> As for lighting, any moonlight simulation or even red or blue LEDs would work great. They don't like bright direct light. They are very easy to observe at night.
> 
> If you are interested in keeping some tarantulas, I have a bunch of slings right now. I could send you a few spiders to raise up. No cost, just pay shipping.
> 
> Josh


Yeah maybe I won't be keeping any burrowers as display animals any time real soon, but it could be fun to try some out. I really like the idea of those _Cyriocosmus_.



frogparty said:


> I've read some nasty bite accounts on arachnoboards. That being said I think Pokies are just about the most amazing spiders there are.


Yeah that's all I find online is that they have horrible painful bites and are ready to bite and super fast, but they look fantastic.



jkooiman said:


> I honestly couldn't tell you.I've got "vampires" and "red devils". All I know is I lost a few of the vampires for sure when I had them setup with a water bowl (though their deaths may have been totally unrelated to this). Seeings how G. krathing and G.notophorum are closely related, and krathing is the species that lives in pitchers, maybe notophorum is a more terrestrial species as well? Whatever the case, the spider idea looks cool, you'd never see the crabs anyways. JVK


Do the _G. krathing_ live in _Nepenthes_ pitchers? Is that right? So did your _Geosesarma_ hide most of the time?



josh_r said:


> You'd never see the spiders either. The crabs are pretty awesome as are the spiders. I think either way you go, it will be pretty sick!


That would be awesome if you could spare a few slings. I will do my best to make the most of them. It would be great if you could give me tips for getting them set up right.


----------



## hydrophyte

Hey I just wanted to reiterate thanks for posting the great information into my thread everybody!

And Happy New Year!


----------



## jkooiman

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the krathing who live in the pitchers, but it might be notophorum, can't remember  . Whatever the case, the two species are pretty closely allied if I'm not mistaken. Also I ...think... both are highland species.

I see both of my Geosesarma species from time to time. Usually 1st thing in the morning. The juvie vampires aren't as scared of me as their parents, and will generally come out at some point during the day. I haven't seen the "red devils" (undescribed as far as I know) in quite awhile, and they were in a setup with just a waterbowl. They may or may not be deceased, they are just so damn sneaky you never know. Happy New Year! JVK


----------



## josh_r

The cyriocosmus are amazing and very well worth it. I have access to several different species. Elegans, peresmilesi, bertae, leetzi, sp. Venezuela, and chicoi. Chicoi is my favorite. Don't know why I don't have any. 

Shoot me a pm with your info and I'll send ya a few spiderlings. And once you figure out what species you want in your 37g let me know and I'll do some askin around and see if I can find ya an adult er two 

Josh


----------



## hydrophyte

jkooiman said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the krathing who live in the pitchers, but it might be notophorum, can't remember  . Whatever the case, the two species are pretty closely allied if I'm not mistaken. Also I ...think... both are highland species.
> 
> I see both of my Geosesarma species from time to time. Usually 1st thing in the morning. The juvie vampires aren't as scared of me as their parents, and will generally come out at some point during the day. I haven't seen the "red devils" (undescribed as far as I know) in quite awhile, and they were in a setup with just a waterbowl. They may or may not be deceased, they are just so damn sneaky you never know. Happy New Year! JVK


That is good to know that the crabs are likely to hide much of the time. I might just start out with spiders for now and see how I do with display setups.

And...I also want to get some mantids going. I might have tried to start with frogs since I have these new terrarium projects started, but I envision these inverts being a notch less demanding in care. I just need to get set up for them and I think I can manage a few of them.



josh_r said:


> The cyriocosmus are amazing and very well worth it. I have access to several different species. Elegans, peresmilesi, bertae, leetzi, sp. Venezuela, and chicoi. Chicoi is my favorite. Don't know why I don't have any.
> 
> Shoot me a pm with your info and I'll send ya a few spiderlings. And once you figure out what species you want in your 37g let me know and I'll do some askin around and see if I can find ya an adult er two
> 
> Josh


Yep I'll send you a PM. I might make some headway with the 37 tomorrow and then have a better idea of how it will be inside there and what kinds of animals could be good matches for it.


----------



## frogparty

Mantids are so undemanding. They're awesome


----------



## josh_r

frogparty said:


> Mantids are so undemanding. They're awesome


Some of the mantids are super delicate and if you don't get the conditions just right, they croak. Get the conditions just right and they are easy to care for. Good air flow is a must.


----------



## frogparty

They aren't as delicate as a lot of people think. I find them to be incredibly simple.


----------



## hydrophyte

Yes I want to get some mantids going too.


----------



## jkooiman

jkooiman said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the krathing who live in the pitchers, but it might be notophorum, can't remember  .


Well, I think i was mistaken. I found another species entirely that _might_ be symbiotic with Nepenthes. G. krathing and G. notophorum are included in the G. malayanum "group", and I think most just raid the pitchers for insects. I'm not sure if any actually "live" in the pitchers.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...mjrJ75&sig=AHIEtbQq0IVbOXrKtN6VTmCWp3ckqKWwMg

(I don't know how to attach a PDF, but just Google Geosesarma nepenthes etc. and you should get there if this doesn't work)

There's also South American crab species that live in arboreal Bromeliads, but they have the typical complicated larval stage if I'm not mistaken. Also, I don't think I've ever seen them offered. JVK


----------



## hydrophyte

You know I looked around and that _Nepenthes ampullaria_ mentioned in that article is a terrestrial species. I don't know if that particular _Geosesarma_ is around in the trade at all and whether I'd be able to combine it with that pitcher, but the _N. ampullaria_ could be a good one to combine with the planting system, _and_ it looks like it is pretty easy to source.


----------



## frogparty

Eventually it will become quite large, but it shod take several years. The one at the UW greenhouse was over 3ft diameter, but it was a very old established plant


----------



## hydrophyte

It seems like a lot of _Nepenthes _are like that. I have seen pictures for plants that had nice little pitchers on them and growing small in little 3" pots, but for species that are described as growing a lot bigger.


----------



## frogparty

They all start out as rosettes for the first few years unt they take on a vining growth habit


----------



## hydrophyte

frogparty said:


> They all start out as rosettes for the first few years unt they take on a vining growth habit


And they usually have small pitchers on them while they grow as rosettes right?


----------



## frogparty

Yup. Cuttings from mature plants vine right away and throw full size pitchers


----------



## hydrophyte

I haven't made any more headway on this because I'm still waiting on the fish tank. The pet shop called this morning and they said that it's backordered and their warehouse won't have it for another two weeks. 

I don't have much to do in the meantime, though I might start work on the cabinet.


----------



## hydrophyte

I finally got the tank. The store got it in a bit faster than they said.

This Marineland 37 Column is really a nice shape. It doesn't take up much floor space, but has lots of room inside. I will post some picture later on.


----------



## hydrophyte

I got some good pictures at the conservatory the other day. 

I have just a couple of these plants and I might use them in this setup, but I just post these pictures as reference for the different kinds of color and texture that I might use.

Most of these are true terrestrial plants.

_Siderasis fuscata_ - a commeline









_Monocostus uniflorus_ - I do have this one, I got it in a recent blackjungle.com order.









_Geogenanthus poeppigii_ - "seersucker plant", I'd like to get some of this one; it's not too hard to find. It is a real nice groundcover.









_Costus tappenbeckianus_ - this is another nice spiral ginger. I don't see much commerical availability for it. These plants were only 6-14" tall, so shorter than a lot of gingers.









_Amomum compactum_


----------



## EvilLost

just wanted to throw in some random info on the nepenthes as I just purchased several for my own build...

be really careful who/where you buy them and imho do *NOT* use any automated checkout system. make sure to hear back from the nursery owner on the actual plant sizes....many people sell 2-3" plants for the same price as 8-10" plants since they are "in 3 inch pots". 

just a word of warning as I almost fell for the trap myself 


the nepenthes, from what i've heard on the carnivorous plant boards, all need to be planted in pots. however, they need a VERY airy mix (50:50 orchid bark/sphagnum or some similar mix...i add in crushed charcoal and perlite).

because of the airy mix, they can be grown in light drip walls or where they get heavily misted....but be careful as they are prone to root rot if they stay wet


oh and lastly....care between LOWLAND and HIGHLAND. their care requirements are substantially different (lowland have consistent temps/humidity while highland are using to much bigger sways...makes sense if you think that lowland grow beneath the treeline whereas highland are up in the sunlight drying out between rains)


EDIT: as for the pitchers, they drop them nonstop and the pitchers just get bigger as the plant grwos (and small pitchers die and fall off). from the mix of plants I got, there is one with 1" pitchers and one with 8" pitchers (super happy with that one!)


----------



## frogparty

DOnt be surprised if you get bacterial black spot on your Nepenthes leaves in terrariums. In my experience they aren't huge fans of stagnant air.


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks for the tips you guys.

I always use fans with plants in humid enclosures; they grow so much better with fans.

Are there any true miniature _Nepenthes_?


----------



## hydrophyte

Finally I'm getting this thing set up. This is a temporary spot on a bench and I m going to build a nice cabinet for the tank as soon as I can.



















I just threw some plants in there quick for an idea.


----------



## carbonetc

hydrophyte said:


> Are there any true miniature _Nepenthes_?


They all vine to some degree, eventually.

Nepenthes campanulata is the only one I can think of that is both easy to grow and probably won't turn into a monster.

Nepenthes ampullaria vines quite a bit, but you could cut off the vines when they get too big, leaving just the clusters on the ground. I haven't tried this and can't vouch for the plant's ability to bounce back every time.

Any other Nepenthes I wouldn't even bother with. Personally I keep my Nepenthes and dart frog hobbies totally separate. Different requirements, different regions of the world. They just don't mesh in my mind.


----------



## hydrophyte

Hey thanks for those tips!

Yes I do not plant to keep frogs in this enclosure. I might instead set it up for a tarantula or it might just be a planted display with not livestock. I have thought about doing a loose Borneo biotope and _Nepenthes_ would be good for that.


----------



## ghettopieninja

Cool plants your working with. I have been using Monocostus uniflorus for about two years and love it, it really gives things a more 'forest floor' feel. I have a NOID Costus that another frogger gave me that looks similar to tappenbeckianus which I have been looking at, however it is just a stem with a few leaves right now so I will have to wait and see how it developes/how tall it grows. I have been looking for Geogenanthus poeppigii for quite some time with no luck, have you found a source for it? Also I really like all these dwarf palms your working with, do you have any good neotropical candidates? I like to keep most of my enclosures somewhat biotopically accurate.


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks. I have been doing a lot of research and hunting for plants. I agree some of these small gingers are pretty cool plants and I hope to get more of them. Most of the coolest smaller gingers are of warm temperate origin and have dormancy cycles, but it might be possible to manage for that alright in a viv. 

I think that glasshouseworks.com had _Geogenanthus poeppigii_ a little while ago(???).

I have sold some of them off but I still have a few pretty cool New World palms...


_Chamaedorea metallica_
_Geonoma_ "entire leaf"
_Asterogyne martiana_

Of these the latter two will eventually grow pretty big, but my specimens are only growing slowly and they are still manageable. The _C. metallica_ can grow to about 6' tall, but the leaves are only about 10" long, so it fits easy in a viv while a young plant. I am going to get more palms in later on this spring when shipping weather improves.


----------



## hydrophyte

So I need to settle on a design for the cabinet and then build it. 

I ponder doing one of these stands with the steel framing connectors...










They look pretty slick with a painted plywood shelf....










I have another idea in mind too.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here is just a quick idea I have for manzanita hung from the rear pane.










I just threw those in there quick for an idea of how they would look and they're just leaning up against the rim.

I really like the look of the exposed manzanita, but I would probably plant epiphytes on the upper sections of it.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's another view. I'm pretty sure about using these pieces, but I haven't made up my mind about their orientation. Slanting down like this they will look like tree roots, but if I orient them more vertically they will shade the floor area, which might also be nice.

(???)


----------



## hydrophyte

I'd love to hear opinions on my couple of design questions (see above) that I am working on.


----------



## snake54320

Semes really nice ! Very sleek like I like it.
I would just put a xaxim/tree fern panel on the back side of the tank.
Have fun !!


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks! Yes i have thought about a tree fern or foam panel for the rear pane, but I might just leave it totally open or use a shadowbox background.


----------



## hydrophyte

This is another quick placeholder with a livestock idea...

Google: _Gonatodes_

Somebody just posted in the Wanted forum looking for these guys. Does anybody know anything about them?


----------



## hydrophyte

I was up till 3am but I put together a manzanita feature to go in here. I'll try to get a picture later on.


----------



## JeremyHuff

Cyriocosmus are very secretive and you wouldn't see them. A close relative to the Avicularia are Iridopelma. They are also very pretty. A. minatrix stays small as well. I don't think the adults will be wandering all over unless you get a mature male. I would suggest you let the tarantula set up its tube on the stump and then add delicate plants. Once a tarantula has made its home, it is unlikely to move it.


----------



## hydrophyte

JeremyHuff said:


> Cyriocosmus are very secretive and you wouldn't see them. A close relative to the Avicularia are Iridopelma. They are also very pretty. A. minatrix stays small as well. I don't think the adults will be wandering all over unless you get a mature male. I would suggest you let the tarantula set up its tube on the stump and then add delicate plants. Once a tarantula has made its home, it is unlikely to move it.


Thanks. For this setup I think I need to consider something other than a tarantulas as livestock. The manzanita stump that I made would probably be a real nice home for a spider, but I want to plant some nice epiphytes up around the top of it. These plants will need some care to develop the way I want them and I don't think a tarantula nest right there will be compatible.


----------



## hydrophyte

I don't know if an _Anolis_ might be a good choice for this setup(???). It is going to be pretty moist in here and I don't want to have real hot basking lamps. 

There are a lot of species out there, but apparently only a few in the trade. Some of them are really cool. Look at this one...

_Anolis bahorucoensis bahorucoensis_


----------



## snake54320

You actually do need a basking spot for any specie of the Anolis genus.
The best is to combine UVs and heat. A "Solar Raptor" 50w is perfect for a tank if 20"x20"x30" (which is the absolute minimum size for 1.1.0 Anolis bahorucoensis).
How big is your tank (in inches) ? 
You should also put more vines, they love to clim !

Snake


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks. Yes I am leaning more toward using some kind of gecko or maybe an anole. My main issue has been that I am disinclined to keep the enclosure much warmer thtn room temperature and I also think the UV lighting will be rough on the plants that I want to use. However, I built up this manzanita stump with several pieces of wood and I now consider shining a UV lamp through one side of the tank and leaving that area of manzanita unplanted, while planting some specimens over on the other shaded side. Does this sound feasible?

I'll try to post a picture later to make it more clear


----------



## josh_r

I think gonatodes would be really cool in the setup you are making!! They would actually be my first vote. An anole of some sort would be a close second. I do know a guy that specializes in breeding rare anoles and gonatodes. If this is the route you want to go, I can contact him and see what he has available. Have you considered lygodactylus williamsi?

Josh


----------



## snake54320

Your welcome !
If you don't want high temperatures, or UV lighting go for Rhacodactylus ciliatus.
A picture will help me a lot. 
But I really think you should go with a small specie like lepidodactylus lugubris, eurydactylodes agricolae, ... If you don't want your setup/plants destroyed.


----------



## hydrophyte

Yes I just need to decide whether I want to plant lots of plants on the manzanita or not. I could just as well leave the wood mostly unplanted and use some kind of lizard because the manzanita looks really cool. Otherwise I will probably use a frog of some kind.

I wish there were more options for small snakes and lizards that do not require extra heat and UV. Just having the warmer temperatures everywhere in the enclosure starts to limit the plants that can grow well. 

I will try to get more pictures later but this one that I already linked gives you an idea of what it looks like. I spent quite a bit of time with it and added several more pieces of manzanita.


----------



## josh_r

Another thought...

In deciding what will inhabit this viv, do you want something you are going to see often or does it matter to you? Choosing between something that is diurnal vs nocturnal or something that will be active enough to use the entire enclosure. Also you may want to put some thought into whether or not you want cricket eaters. Crickets will do damage to your plants, eat new growth, etc. when they get hungry enough, they will chew on just about anything.

The manzanita wood looks awesome by the way! One of my favorite native plants!


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks again. Yes I will have some pretty nice plants in here and I want to avoid crickets.

I'll try to get more pictures a bit later as well as list of plants that I want to use and it would be great to get some more feedback and ideas.


----------



## rollinkansas

That setup could do well for Gonatodes or Anolis depending on species. I saw you mentioned Anolis bahorucoensis...good luck finding those, I think youd have a better chance of finding other species.


----------



## hydrophyte

josh_r said:


> I think gonatodes would be really cool in the setup you are making!! They would actually be my first vote. An anole of some sort would be a close second. I do know a guy that specializes in breeding rare anoles and gonatodes. If this is the route you want to go, I can contact him and see what he has available. Have you considered lygodactylus williamsi?
> 
> Josh


I think so too. The plants I have in mind for this are mainly New World groups. I don't have any interest in making a strict biotope but it would be nice to keep the livestock and the plants in the same region more or less; you know, for example I would be disinclined to keep a bromeliad with an African lizard. 

I will try to sort this out and let you know about that.


----------



## hydrophyte

Well I got the manzanita feature all put together and I think I have a pretty good result. Unfortunately I am having trouble with image hosting, so I don't have a picture handy. Maybe I will try to upload a picture or two to dendroboard.

I am leaning more toward using a _Gonatodes_. My main doubt with setting this up for a lizard is that the enclosure will be very warm for some of the plants that I want to use. What do you think? If I use a heat lamp to keep a basking area at the recommend 90F will the whole setup be very warm all the time. I want to keep it pretty humid inside so I plan for the top to be mostly closed up.


----------



## rollinkansas

hydrophyte said:


> Well I got the manzanita feature all put together and I think I have a pretty good result. Unfortunately I am having trouble with image hosting, so I don't have a picture handy. Maybe I will try to upload a picture or two to dendroboard.
> 
> I am leaning more toward using a _Gonatodes_. My main doubt with setting this up for a lizard is that the enclosure will be very warm for some of the plants that I want to use. What do you think? If I use a heat lamp to keep a basking area at the recommend 90F will the whole setup be very warm all the time. I want to keep it pretty humid inside so I plan for the top to be mostly closed up.


A hotspot of 90 is fine, especially if its a localized heat area. The rest of the heat will dissipate down into the tank and leave the tank at a nice temperature for either the Anolis or Gonatodes depending on which species you end up going with. I think the humidity would play a bigger factor in the species as some species like it a little more dry than others.


----------



## hydrophyte

Do you know off-hand about preferred relative humidity for _Gonatodes_?


----------



## rollinkansas

hydrophyte said:


> Do you know off-hand about preferred relative humidity for _Gonatodes_?


I kept most of the species at 70-ish. Mist only 1-2x a day, once in the morning and once in the evening.


----------



## hydrophyte

Hey thanks!

So did your setups have screen tops, or were they closed up?

Which species did you have?


----------



## rollinkansas

hydrophyte said:


> Hey thanks!
> 
> So did your setups have screen tops, or were they closed up?
> 
> Which species did you have?


All my setups had screen top. Kept 3 subspecies of albogularis, vittatus, caudiscutattus, and ocellatus.


----------



## hydrophyte

I got some pretty excellent plants in an order last night. I don't know if I'll be able to post pictures, but I'll post a list of selections a little bit later on.


----------



## jake9134

my vote is for damon diadema aka tailless whip scorpion. They don't need special light, have longer lifespans than mantids, don't bite, won't kill or web up plants and are very communal with similar sizes. Their only downside is that I've only seen them once at a reptile show and I only bought 1 .As for the tarantula suggestions, Poecilotheria sp. will probably not kill someone but you would have to go to the hospital for the pain with some people experiencing symptoms long after the bite, also tarantulas are normally solitary with very few exceptions and will eat each other more often than not(avic and poecilotheria are considered semi-communal at a young age but will still eat each other if one gets hungry). They are also known for having mite problems with wetter tanks(though if its a Avicularia sp and theres a full screen top I'd doubt there would be any problems).


----------



## hydrophyte

jake9134 said:


> my vote is for damon diadema aka tailless whip scorpion. They don't need special light, have longer lifespans than mantids, don't bite, won't kill or web up plants and are very communal with similar sizes. Their only downside is that I've only seen them once at a reptile show and I only bought 1 .As for the tarantula suggestions, Poecilotheria sp. will probably not kill someone but you would have to go to the hospital for the pain with some people experiencing symptoms long after the bite, also tarantulas are normally solitary with very few exceptions and will eat each other more often than not(avic and poecilotheria are considered semi-communal at a young age but will still eat each other if one gets hungry). They are also known for having mite problems with wetter tanks(though if its a Avicularia sp and theres a full screen top I'd doubt there would be any problems).


That is a good tip I will keep that in mind.

It's too bad that there are more options for livestock that can be kept in high humidity enclosures and without special lighting + heat requirements. It seems the only options like that are some frogs and _Geosesarma_.

Here's a quick list with the new plants that I got...


_Philodendron inaequilaterum_
_Monstera siltepecana_
_Peperomia orba_
_Spathicarpa hastifolia_
_Sanchezia speciosa_
_Epipremnum pinnatum_ "Skeleton Key"
_Anthurium clarinervium_
_Philodendron_ sp. "Sucre’s Slim”

...lots of aoird climbers in this list. I hope that I can post up some pictures later on sometime. I still don't have a real good idea for plants to use in this setup. I need to think about that some more.


----------



## hydrophyte

I hope to get back to this thing this weekend. I've been so busy.


----------



## skanderson

hehehe i have another window open right now to brians botanicals, and about half of that list is open in tabs. is that where you got those from and how do they look. thanks,steve


----------



## hydrophyte

Steve, Yes I got those plants from Brian's Botanicals. He has excellent material and he is trying to build up the selections for terrarium growing. He has a lot of really cool plants especially aroids that don't seem to be around elsewhere in the trade. 

Hey I still have your box to ship here. I'm sorry again for the delay. I really got tripped up with my hardware + web hosting problems a couple of weeks ago. Monday would be good for shipping to you if you will be around next week. It's more mild weather during the fist part of next week.


----------



## skanderson

shipping next week for a wed or thurs delivery would be ideal. i modified my order from brians a bit. i just got a cham. metallica in the mail and a seedling areca 'maroon' that im trying to find room for. will need to put up some updated tank pics to show all the new swag.


----------



## hydrophyte

skanderson said:


> shipping next week for a wed or thurs delivery would be ideal. i modified my order from brians a bit. i just got a cham. metallica in the mail and a seedling areca 'maroon' that im trying to find room for. will need to put up some updated tank pics to show all the new swag.


That would be great to see pictures. What are getting from Brian's Botanicals?

_Chamaedorea metallica_ is a great little plant. It might need a bit more air circulation than other palms. I had it in in a real humid spot in a growout setup and the leaves started to splotch because they were too damp. It grows really well as a houspelant. Wow I just did a search and that _Areca_ 'Maroon' is a cool plant. It gets to be a big plant, but I read that it clumps, so if it gets too big and you whack off the top it might sucker with little plantlets around the base.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here is the kind of stand that I am going to use...










I am going to do it a little differently with painted 2X4's. I might also add plywood painted side panels and doors mounted flush with the inside edges.


----------



## hydrophyte

I got the boards all repainted and now I just need to refasten them.

This is the color that I used..."Autumn Sunset" that I got at Ace Hardware...


----------



## snake54320

Some news ?


----------



## hydrophyte

I just got my blog fixed so I can upload more new images. I will try to update tomorrow.

The stand for the tank turned out pretty nice.


----------



## hydrophyte

OK finally I got the tank set up better and here I have some new pictures.

Here's a quick look in through the top.










The manzanita is attached to the plastic sheet with these stainless steel screws + washers.










This makes a modular feature that just lifts right out of the tank...very easy.

Here is a quick full tank shot.










It took me _hours_ to arrange that manzanita in a way that I liked. I might still add another piece or two.

More pictures soon!


----------



## winstonamc

that is gonna be awesome. 
Are you gonna put in any pots of plants that will grow up that manzanita?


----------



## frogparty

I love that wood placement


----------



## hydrophyte

winstonamc said:


> that is gonna be awesome.
> Are you gonna put in any pots of plants that will grow up that manzanita?


Yes I have a few philos and other aroid climbers that I might use. I still haven't decided what kind of livestock setup and planting I am going to do yet. It would be really cool to plant some moss, micro orchids and button ferns on that manzanita, but I like the appearance of the bare wood too. So I might leave the tank with more ventilation and drier air.



frogparty said:


> I love that wood placement


Thanks a bunch! It took me a really long time to arrange it.


----------



## frogparty

You could mount some Tolumnias or Angraceoids that like it drier to the wood. No moss around the wood, and let the exposed roots grow over bare wood. A daily misting would be more than enough, and the bare wood would still shine through


----------



## hydrophyte

frogparty said:


> You could mount some Tolumnias or Angraceoids that like it drier to the wood. No moss around the wood, and let the exposed roots grow over bare wood. A daily misting would be more than enough, and the bare wood would still shine through


I had this same idea in mind too. Some _Tillandsia_ and _Rhipsalis_ would also be good like that.

One additional constraint would be whether or not I decide to set this up for an _Anolis_ or _Gonatodes_. The extra heat and dryness right there at the top might be tough for many kinds of plants.


----------



## frogparty

Maybe some Dockrillia then. Heat tolerant, drought tolerant, compact. 
Rhipsalis would be perfect. As would a lot of tillandsias


----------



## hydrophyte

frogparty said:


> Maybe some Dockrillia then. Heat tolerant, drought tolerant, compact.
> Rhipsalis would be perfect. As would a lot of tillandsias


That's another great idea! I read that _Dockrillia_ is a new genus only recently separated from _Dendrobium_, so to find the plants you have to search with _Dendrobium_ too.


----------



## frogparty

There are a lot of full sun, drought tolerant, semi succulent species. Yes they were formerly dendrobiums


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's the light that I am using in here, the Ecoxotic 8,000K White Panorama strip.










The color is a little too blue. I'm sure it looks really good in a saltwater fish tank, but it renders greens and brown poorly. It's OK though for the time-being. I like that it is nice and slim.










I made the stand with 2X4's and these steel framing connectors. I think it looks pretty cool.


----------



## snake54320

If the lite seems blue it's very good. It means the you have over 10 000k, so your plants and moss will grow quickly.


----------



## hydrophyte

snake54320 said:


> If the lite seems blue it's very good. It means the you have over 10 000k, so your plants and moss will grow quickly.


It's 8,000K. Speedy growth is less important to me than looks. It's OK for the time being, but I'm going to replace it with something for more natural color.


----------



## alivetheycried

crested geckos will be awesome there also, its not hard care which is awesome


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks. I am going to have some small, delicate plants in here, so I think crested geckos will be too much. I am going to decide between a small _Anolis,_ a _Gonatodes_ gecko or frogs. I still need to think about it some more.


----------



## snake54320

hydrophyte said:


> It's 8,000K. Speedy growth is less important to me than looks. It's OK for the time being, but I'm going to replace it with something for more natural color.


Oops, sorry, what I ment is that the plants & moss will grow better !
Can't wait to see the tank finished. 
Actually, what are the dimensions in inches (Lxwxh) ?


----------



## rollinkansas

hydrophyte said:


> Thanks. I am going to have some small, delicate plants in here, so I think crested geckos will be too much. I am going to decide between a small _Anolis,_ a _Gonatodes_ gecko or frogs. I still need to think about it some more.


Do you plan on only feeding food items besides crickets? If you have high humdity in the tank (dart frog conditions) you can keep Anolis roquet summus, which will be out in the open and day active, along with great coloration. The Gonatodes are nice but many of the more colorful ones can be a little shy.


----------



## hydrophyte

snake54320 said:


> Oops, sorry, what I ment is that the plants & moss will grow better !
> Can't wait to see the tank finished.
> Actually, what are the dimensions in inches (Lxwxh) ?


The footprint is 18" X 20" and it's maybe 24" tall.



rollinkansas said:


> Do you plan on only feeding food items besides crickets? If you have high humdity in the tank (dart frog conditions) you can keep Anolis roquet summus, which will be out in the open and day active, along with great coloration. The Gonatodes are nice but many of the more colorful ones can be a little shy.


Thanks for this tip! I want to avoid using crickets. Have you ever seen this species for sale?


----------



## rollinkansas

hydrophyte said:


> The footprint is 18" X 20" and it's maybe 24" tall.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for this tip! I want to avoid using crickets. Have you ever seen this species for sale?



Hmm while you could probably get away with food items other than crickets, it really wouldnt make much sense due to their large appetite and the fact that fruit flies or whatever you will be feeding are so small in comparison...like you trying to live off bread crumbs instead of a full piece of bread..you could do it, but doesnt make much sense. The roquet summus is one of the more commonly available Anolis for sale, and youll see them pop up from time to time. I imported a couple pairs last year for people, but unfortunately will not be doing that anymore.

If you are afriad the crickets will destroy the plants, you can also place them in a tall deli cup during feeding time and have the Anolis feed out of this...this way they are getting bigger food prey, and the crickets wont hurt the plants.


----------



## hydrophyte

I can feed them crickets well enough. Crickets are pretty easy for me to manage. If I can just add them as they get eaten or use a cup like you say that should minimize plant damage well enough.

Thanks again for the advice like I mentioned I have very little recent experience keeping herps I just want to make sure that I have things set up right. 

With this big plastic plate on top I don't room for much more light. I will shine the heat lamp and/or UV through the side.


----------



## hydrophyte

What do you all think about this lamp as a UV source?...

Amazon.com: Zilla R'Zilla 11755 20-Inch Low Profile T5 Tropical Light Fixture, 2-1/2-Inch by 20-Inch by 1-Inch: Pet Supplies


It should fit on top of the enclosure nice and trim and then the LED will light up the display for plant growth.


----------



## diggenem

That piece of wood looks sick! 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks it's taking forever but I hope to start getting plants into it tonight.


----------



## hydrophyte

I am working on this thing tonight. I might have more pictures to post up.

I have changed opinion so many times, but now I think I will just set this thing up for frogs. This way I will have less electrical junk to plug in and I think I can grow more of the kinds of plants that I want too. 

Since I will probably use frogs I am going to assemble this more carefully and bleach sanitize all of the plants going into it, which will take more time.


----------



## hydrophyte

OK finally I got back to getting some pictures. I have started putting plants in here...










This was just a random selection of plants among the ones that are looking good right now. I might have tried to use some kind of theme, such as using only palms, but I think I like the way these plants look together. 

I have also spent the afternoon cooking leaves and ABG mix at 325F...the house stinks bad!

Tonight when I get home again I am going to start belach sterilizing and repotting all of these plants. I hope I can pull it off without wrecking these nice specimens!


----------



## hydrophyte

This is for sure one of the coolest plants in my possession right now, _Pinanga_ sp. "blue seed". This amazing color is restricted to newly-opened leaves. As the leaf matures it will still be mottled but just with different shades of green.


----------



## frogparty

Nice! That palm looks killer!!!


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks! yeah I didn't even realize how awesome it was looking till I pulled it out of the growout setup where I had it.


----------



## hydrophyte

HEre's another quick picture that I got.

I hope to add the leaf litter today!


----------



## hydrophyte

I just bleach-sterilized and repotted all of the plants that had been in pro mix; now they are potted in ABG mix. 

I am going to shoot a couple more pictures of the setup like this and then tomorrow add leaf litter.


----------



## snake54320

Thats a real rank. I usually never say this, but I have to admit that it's perfect ! ( don't forget the fern panel on the back, it will look nicer and provide more borrows/using space for the anima(s) )


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks! No I'm not going to use any kind of background panel. I like the way that it looks with the open back; it creates more of a sense of depth. The purple wall behind also contrasts in a nice way against the green.


----------



## NAKE

As you wish, it's your tank !
When you have some time, cood you do like grimm and name the plants like this ? 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/65988-peninsula-56.html

it would be very nice.


----------



## hydrophyte

I was going to do something like that, but I will probably just use numbers and a list. I do have some pretty cool plants in there.


----------



## hydrophyte

I spent some more time with and got the leaf litter in there.










I wish that I had some taller plants to use. I had pondered mounting some epiphytes up at the top, but I like the bare manzanita so much that now I don't want to plant anything on it. The ideal kind of plant to add would be something tall and vertical, such as a cane _Begonia_, _Ficus_ or _Piper_, but nice and open.


----------



## winstonamc

this is so nice, devin. Can't wait for it to grow in


----------



## hydrophyte

Hey thanks! 

Actually I hope to keep the plants thin enough so that I can still see the leaf litter and driftwood. As they start to grow I will pull some of them out. I do however want to add something bushy but open to fill more of the vertical space. I want to try to find a _Piper_ or cane _Begonia_ maybe for that.


----------



## Dillon Wascher

The wood is beautiful!


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks! There are some pretty cool plants in there too. This one is a little seedling of _Licuala dasyantha_. This is the only real fan palm that I have in here right now, but the leaves are not yet developing with the fan shape, just these little wedges. Maybe the next leaf will have a fan shape.


----------



## snake54320

Looks great, but a fern panel would of looked very nice. You coold this way attached epiphytes plantes, moos and ficus scandens.


----------



## hydrophyte

Nope, not gonna add a panel to the background. I like it open. It looks better this way.

Less is more!


----------



## Sake135

I think the open concept is great too. The tank looks amazing.

If you are still thinking about putting a spider in it, I say go for it. I used to keep a lot of tarantulas years ago. Many of them arboreal. I think for your set up a Avic would be perfect. 

They will web but only in one spot to make their web tube home. When mine would start to web somewhere I did not want, all I would do is remove the web. They may try that same spot again. Just remove the web again. Eventually they will figure out that this spot is not good for them to make their web home and will choose another spot.

I had an adult female versicolor in a natural set up. The set up was pretty simple though (this was in 2005 and my first planted set up). Avics are pretty good at manuvering around the plants. I used to feed mine roaches off forceps. I also had isopods and springtails in the tank to clean up after the spiders left over food.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Here are some photos so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about:
You can see it made its web home in the upper right corner. The rest of the tank is web free. There is a male in there with her too.









Her moving amongst the plants:









Both doing the same:









Eating a roach:









On plants:









-Mike


----------



## hydrophyte

Wow those spiders are gorgeous. Did they have any regular activity during the day, or did they just come out for feeding? 

I was gravitating more toward getting a group of frogs, most likely a _Ranitomeya_, but those spiders sure are cool. 

What % relative humidity did you keep those spiders at?


----------



## Sake135

Thanks. She was more active in those pics because of the male. Normally she would sit near the entrance of the web tube in the day. You'd see mostly her legs. Then when it was closer to the evening she would come all the way out. She was not as active as frogs are but still it was cool having her set up like that and I was happy even if she wasn't moving about all the time. The humidity was about 80%. I didn't have to mist often because I only had one 4x4" vent in there. 

I've been wanting to set up a nice spider tank again but I've developed an allergy to roaches and I don't want to deal with crickets. If only they ate fruit flies, lol.


----------



## hydrophyte

I'll have to ponder this some more. I really like the idea of tarantulas in this setup. Since I am not using any epiphytes it will be OK for it to be a bit more dry.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's a more specific question. Would I expect _Avicularia_ to spend much time at all on the ground in a setup like this? I have all these cool plants and most of them are small and fine and would get trampled by a tarantula.


----------



## Sake135

It's a beautiful tank either way. Looking forward to seeing what goes in there.


----------



## Sake135

hydrophyte said:


> Here's a more specific question. Would I expect _Avicularia_ to spend much time at all on the ground in a setup like this? I have all these cool plants and most of them are small and fine and would get trampled by a tarantula.


If you put in an elavated water dish, I don't think you'll ever see it on the ground. Mine would always stay up top. In your tank, I'm pretty sure it would make its home in or around the branches and use the tank sides and branches in its movements.


----------



## hydrophyte

That's good to know. Thanks again!

A real nice thing about using a tarantula in contrast with a lizard is that I won't have to plan for the extra lighting + heat. I would just need to make a more secure top.


----------



## hydrophyte

I think I've made up my mind and I will keep an _Avicularia_ in here. 

I am going to work on getting the environmental parameters in line with requirements for the spiders and see how the plants do. I want to have this tank mainly closed up but with a fan running. I hope that this will work(??).

Here's a quick link to a care sheet for _A. avicularia_...

Avicularia avicularia - WikiPets


----------



## Sake135

If you use a fan just be sure to observe the avic. The vibrations from the fan may disturb it. The air flow may as well. The hairs on a tarantula are used to detect vibrations around them and those hairs are pretty sensitive. 

I'm not saying don't do it. Just keep an eye and adjust as needed. 

Over in Europe, a lot of people keep their tarantulas in natural set ups. I used to have a lot of links to pictures and info on Euro setups but have lost most of them. I'll see if I have any on my pc. 

Good luck.


----------



## hydrophyte

That would be great to see pictures of planted vivs for tarantulas. Please link them if you can find some.

I could also set up an external blower with intake and vent into the enclosure. For me plants just seem so much happier when I keep them with a fan blowing. I suspect that with a fan I could also keep it nice and humid but avoid stagnant air that could cause trouble for the spider.


----------



## hydrophyte

I just bought an Exo Terra hygrometer and stuck the sensor in there. It is pretty moist inside. The leaf litter and foliage are still wet from when I misted yesterday. The hygrometer reads 85% RH.


----------



## Sake135

Sounds good. If you set up a fan (daytime only?) the moisture should come down a little. 

I found some links and pm'd them to you.
-Mike


----------



## hydrophyte

Hey thanks so much! I need to join that forum.

I hope the fan won't trouble the spider too much. I have a small 2.5" fan that's real quiet and shakes very little.


----------



## Sake135

You're welcome and good luck. I'm looking forward to seeing new pics.


----------



## hydrophyte

I will try to get some more pictures sometime soon. The planting is pretty well resolved for now, but I want to make the glass panel to cover the top and the plywood shelf for the bottom of the stand too. I also need to better set up the light.


----------



## hydrophyte

I got a quick picture of that manzanita feature.










It doesn't look like much, but it took me a long time to arrange those pieces in a way I liked and mount them all to that plastic sheet.


----------



## Sake135

Nice and clean! I like the fact that it did not involve the use of great stuff. No curing, no carving...lol.


----------



## hydrophyte

Yeah it's nice because I can just lift the whole thing out too whenever I want. 

I hope that the spider will like it.


----------



## hydrophyte

Wow this thread has 9,000 views already.

I can't wait to get that spider!


----------



## mahji

I am not fan of spiders but great concept, i absolutely love it.


----------



## hydrophyte

Hey thanks!

I might have more pictures on the way soon.


----------



## hydrophyte

I worked on this thing some more last night. I mounted a fan, hygrometer and thermometer to the second plastic top panel and I also made the glass panel to cover the top front. I closed it up and ran the fan all night and this morning the humidity read 89%. This is a still a bit moist for an avic. I might poke some more ventilation holes in the top.


----------



## hydrophyte

Does anybody out there have a used Exo Terra light hood? I wanted to try to get something more trim and sleek, but it seems an Exo Terra might be the most practical way to light this thing up.


----------



## hydrophyte

I got a quick picture here of the top rear panel with fan, knob handle, hygrometer and thermometer.










I cut a couple of notches for the airline too. And I also put a screen on the front of the fan. It was a wussy little fan to begin with and now the breeze from it is barely perceptible. I hope that it will help to mix that air anyway.


----------



## hydrophyte

I need to figure out how to heat this thing. It's positioned against an outside wall and it has been a full 5 degrees cooler inside the tank than what the house thermostat reads. 

I wonder about positioning a reptile heat pad under the tank(???). I would have to hold it up somehow because it's just bare glass and an empty space underneath. 

I wanted to try to use LED lighting and I was intrigued by those new LYR strips, but fluorescent is probably better because it will heat the enclosure a bit more for more of a diurnal temp increase.


----------



## Giga

Dude you are like on every fourm-great build by the way-spiders not my things but cool none the less.


----------



## hydrophyte

Hey thanks. I hope to have more updates on the way.

Does anybody have any good ideas for raising/controlling temperature in this tank?


----------



## Wallace Grover

hydrophyte said:


> Hey thanks. I hope to have more updates on the way.
> 
> Does anybody have any good ideas for raising/controlling temperature in this tank?


Maybe an under-the tank heatmat?


----------



## hydrophyte

Yeah that's how I'll probably do it. i just ened to figure out how to hold the heat mat up against the glass because the the stand is just a frame with no top and it's empty space under there.


----------



## hydrophyte

Yay! I have a lead on getting either an adult or subadult _Avicularia metallica_ or _A. versicolor_ in trade for some plants. If it works out I might have it within a week or two. 

This is a Wikipedia, copyright-free picture of _A. metallica_.

File:Avicularia Metallica.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## stevenhman

A lead on? Are versicolor no longer imported? Hopefully you aren't trading too much - versicolor used to be like $5/$10 on wholesale lists. You almost had to give away lings. 

Not trying to rain on your parade - Just tryin to look out for ya!


----------



## hydrophyte

Don't worry, I have a good source who isn't going to soak me. I'm not a tarantula collector and I don't have the time, money or inclination to be one. I just want something that will look cool for this display tank.


----------



## hydrophyte

I have an update picture here that I formatted quick into a letter-sized poster. The plants are still looking happy. Our house has been chilly but the plants are growing slowly.


----------



## hydrophyte

I hope that I can post here again(???).

I have a quick picture of a new setup. This one is in a 12" X 12" X 18" Exo Terra and similar to my 37 with a manzanita feature suspended from the top, but I am keeping this one as a high-humidity viv. I am still pondering livestock choices. For now I am just going to let it grow in. I think that I selected some pretty good plants.


----------



## Sammie

Your tank looks really cool, nice and clean design Just a heads up if you're going to put a Avicularia in it, they make alot of web so there's a big risk that your plants gets covered with silk. I would put in a cork tube or something in the corner so that the spider might not feel the need to build a nest from scratch, thus decreasing the risk of excessive webbing.


----------



## hydrophyte

Sammie said:


> Your tank looks really cool, nice and clean design Just a heads up if you're going to put a Avicularia in it, they make alot of web so there's a big risk that your plants gets covered with silk. I would put in a cork tube or something in the corner so that the spider might not feel the need to build a nest from scratch, thus decreasing the risk of excessive webbing.


Thanks that is a good tip. I might do something like that, but I think I will first just see what the avic does with the manzanita branches that are in that 37. You can't really see it, but the branches make a tight clump up at the top where I have them screwed onto the plastic plate. I hope that the spider will web up in that area. If there gets to be too much web I'll just clean it up and add a cork tube or something like that in the back.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's another updated shot for this setup. The plants have grown in a bit more.


----------



## warlock

do you have plans on making this forest floor up to 18x18?


----------



## hydrophyte

warlock said:


> do you have plans on making this forest floor up to 18x18?


What do you mean?


----------



## warlock

hydrophyte said:


> What do you mean?


i like your system.. 

do you have a 18" X 18" Forest Floor Terrarium Kit?


----------



## warlock

never mind.. i found it.. 

your website was not as easy to navigate..to find your products.. 

but i got to it thanks

i will look at it more closely..


----------



## hydrophyte

Sorry. Yes it needs more work. I want to have a dedicated site for the kits, but for now I just have the url redirecting to that page on on my other site.


----------



## snake54320

hydrophyte said:


> I was going to do something like that, but I will probably just use numbers and a list. I do have some pretty cool plants in there.


I didn't see it 
When I look at some of these plants on the net, I see that they get very big, you're not scared of being obligated to take out the plants after a few years ?


----------



## hydrophyte

snake54320 said:


> I didn't see it
> When I look at some of these plants on the net, I see that they get very big, you're not scared of being obligated to take out the plants after a few years ?


Some of those plants can potentially get big, but I have them all in 2" and 3" pots which helps to limit their size. Likewise when any of them start to get larger I can easily just lift them out and replace. A couple of those palms that I have in there are true miniatures that will probably never surpass 12" or so tall.


----------



## winstonamc

the 37 is growing in really nice, man. The new one looks good as well. I love the way you do the wood features and interested to see what you do with epiphytes after looking at that new one.


----------



## hydrophyte

winstonamc said:


> the 37 is growing in really nice, man. The new one looks good as well. I love the way you do the wood features and interested to see what you do with epiphytes after looking at that new one.


Hey thanks!


----------



## jacobi

I'd love to see what you'd do with a 100 gallon or larger display vivarium...


----------



## hydrophyte

Hey I still have that paleo viv in the works, but I haven't done much more with it lately. That is going to go into a 90 or maybe a 150 fish tank.

How is that snake setup of yours going?


----------



## jacobi

hydrophyte said:


> Hey I still have that paleo viv in the works, but I haven't done much more with it lately. That is going to go into a 90 or maybe a 150 fish tank.
> 
> How is that snake setup of yours going?


Yeah I'm waiting on updates for that 

Snake setup... um. Lol. Kind of at a standstill right now. Testing a couple plants to see how they'll do under the lighting. And there's the possibility the snake wont be going in there, it wreaks havoc on all the substrates I've been testing in its current tank! Which will expand my plant possibilities... its amazing how much planning and testing is involved in a vivarium as soon as you try to do something even slightly "out of the box".


----------



## hydrophyte

jacobi said:


> Yeah I'm waiting on updates for that
> 
> Snake setup... um. Lol. Kind of at a standstill right now. Testing a couple plants to see how they'll do under the lighting. And there's the possibility the snake wont be going in there, it wreaks havoc on all the substrates I've been testing in its current tank! Which will expand my plant possibilities... its amazing how much planning and testing is involved in a vivarium as soon as you try to do something even slightly "out of the box".


I will try to post some more updates for the paleo viv project. I have figured out a couple more things.

Do you have any other livestock ideas in mind for that project?


----------



## jacobi

hydrophyte said:


> Do you have any other livestock ideas in mind for that project?


That's what's holding me up. If the snake doesn't go in there, it'll be either an auratus morph, or a small diurnal lizard. Maybe garter snakes... there are so many animals id like to try my hand at keeping, but since all my vivariums are out in the open in living areas I can only keep a few display tanks. The tank is only 15 inches tall, so that rules out anything arboreal. I have to design the rock background around the animal, and I've already started putting it together, so i cant finish it till i decide. I'm extremely limited spacewise, so I have to decide soon...

I'd love to try an Amereega, but I don't feel that I have the experience.


----------



## hydrophyte

jacobi said:


> That's what's holding me up. If the snake doesn't go in there, it'll be either an auratus morph, or a small diurnal lizard. Maybe garter snakes... there are so many animals id like to try my hand at keeping, but since all my vivariums are out in the open in living areas I can only keep a few display tanks. The tank is only 15 inches tall, so that rules out anything arboreal. I have to design the rock background around the animal, and I've already started putting it together, so i cant finish it till i decide. I'm extremely limited spacewise, so I have to decide soon...
> 
> I'd love to try an Amereega, but I don't feel that I have the experience.


Do you have more of an inclination either way to make it a humid viv, or something more ventilated?

I'm real interested in the idea of making naturalistic planted vivs with UV and heat for lizards and snakes. That is something that you don't see much. It seems like most of the gecko hobbyists and people keeping stuff like that just build the setups around the animals and the plantings maybe aren't so dramatic and convincing like they often are for dart frog setups.


----------



## jacobi

hydrophyte said:


> Do you have more of an inclination either way to make it a humid viv, or something more ventilated?
> 
> I'm real interested in the idea of making naturalistic planted vivs with UV and heat for lizards and snakes. That is something that you don't see much. It seems like most of the gecko hobbyists and people keeping stuff like that just build the setups around the animals and the plantings maybe aren't so dramatic and convincing like they often are for dart frog setups.


Probably more ventilated. I'd like an auratus morph but I'm not sure if the rock background that I've been working on would be suitable. Its a little far along to put in storage, storage being in short supply in my apartment. I could if I really wanted to, but I'm not sure yet, although thinking about it is making it look like a more and more attractive option... hmm. 

The animals on my primary "want" list are mostly arboreal. The ones that aren't are either too big, or would hide all the time. Like this one.. lol

Maybe a few small Sceloporus, theyd do well in the setup as it is planned so far.Theyre active, diurnal... always wanted to try breeding them. Plus, they should do well in a 30 long. Most of the plants I've been testing will be suitable for them. If I decide on the auratus route I'm not sure what I'll do with them. My windowsills are already crowded!

There are quite a few species of animals and styles of vivarium I'd like to try my hand at, but I won't have the space or finances for a good 4-5 years to do it properly. So in the meanwhile, I'm learning as much as I can by reading, and pottering around with odds and ends and improvements to the few vivaria I have now.

What would you do with a spare 30 gallon long, already drilled for drainage and return for waterfall?


----------



## Froggywv

Do you custom build anything like the manzanita arrangement? Id be very interested in something like that for my new exxoterra...


----------



## hydrophyte

Froggywv said:


> Do you custom build anything like the manzanita arrangement? Id be very interested in something like that for my new exxoterra...


PM sent.

(10 characters)


----------



## hydrophyte

Tarantula tomorrow I hope.


----------



## frogparty

Awesome !!!!!!!!


----------



## hydrophyte

I just need to make it over there before the store closes. I have a few other errands to run first.


----------



## hydrophyte

Well the _A. versicolor_ that they had was sold, but I picked up a single _A. diversipes_ sling. It's only ~.75" long and it's going to take me a while to grow it up. 

I gotta get some pictures of it. It's really pretty. 

I still hope to find an adult or near-adult spider to use as a display animal in this setup.


----------



## karag

Great setup, I got my B. smithi in a shoe box..


----------



## frogparty

There were some beautiful adult/subadult spiders a the reptile expo today. Besides the pocies and avics my favorite was the Venezuelan sun tiger. Amazing spider!!!


----------



## hydrophyte

Yeah that sun tiger is amazing.

I hope to getting a few different _Poecithilaria_ slings too.


----------



## winstonamc

where them spiders?


----------



## hydrophyte

I am going right now to take some pictures of it and put it into this somewhat larger enclosure that I have for it.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here is the little _A. diversipes._


1-VII-12-Avicularia-diversipes-i-m by 

I had it outside while transferring it to its new somehaat larger jar enclosure. This is the last time I try to handle a baby tarantula. It's super fast and almost got away from me.


----------



## jacobi

Wow. That's stunning.


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks yes it is really an attractive little tarantula.


----------



## Duff

Pretty little spider! Though it's a bit scary to look at! I run across them here in Dallas on occasion crossing roads and they scare me every time I see them. Though the adults I see typically are pretty slow (at least the one's I have seen) - can't even imagine handling a small one. What is the actual size of this little guy? I can't really tell from the photo.


----------



## hydrophyte

It's body is about .75" and then with legs a bit longer than an inch. This species will grow to about 4" long as adults.

Yeah it's not a good idea to handle them when they are this young. They are too fast and too small.


----------



## Sake135

That is one nice spider. Lovely as an adult. If I didn't have to deal with roaches or crickets, I'd get into spiders again. 

The tank is looking great too.


----------



## hydrophyte

Sake135 said:


> That is one nice spider. Lovely as an adult. If I didn't have to deal with roaches or crickets, I'd get into spiders again.
> 
> The tank is looking great too.


Thanks so much. I like this little spider too and now I'm motivated to get a collection going. I am really interested in the idea of making nice planted displays for tarantulas and other arthropods.


----------



## frogparty

I too like the idea of natural vivs for invertebrates! That spider will be so happy in there


----------



## Sake135

Man am I tempted to get back into them. Your photos don't help, lol. 
Not sure if you were thinking of adding micro fauna to that tank but I saw on another site that someone's scorpion and centipede was attacked by the Isopods in the tank. Not sure what Isopods they had. Something to consider though. Springtails should be fine. They were in all of my tarantula containers. Whether I put them there or not.


----------



## hydrophyte

Sake135 said:


> Man am I tempted to get back into them. Your photos don't help, lol.
> Not sure if you were thinking of adding micro fauna to that tank but I saw on another site that someone's scorpion and centipede was attacked by the Isopods in the tank. Not sure what Isopods they had. Something to consider though. Springtails should be fine. They were in all of my tarantula containers. Whether I put them there or not.


Hey that's a good tip. Thanks! The leaf litter in this setup has a bit of mold and I have wanted to get more microfauna established. I will avoid using isopods. 

Another potential complication with keeping tarantulas in a naturalistic setup is that roaches and crickets can get loose and then attack later on, especially while the spiders are molting. I hope to avoid strays in this setup by hobbling the dubias first and then putting them in a feeding dish.


----------



## frogparty

Im going to start feeding silkworms and moths to my mantids and will use them for spiders too. Raising silkworms doesn't sound too hard, and they're supposed to be extremely nutritional


----------



## hydrophyte

That's a good idea. I should try that too. We have no shortage of mulberry around here; they grow like weeds all over our neighborhood. I wonder if I could also freeze or dry the fresh leaves(??).


----------



## hydrophyte

I'm shooting a few more pictures tonight.

I want to make a poster-style diagram like this one that *Grimm* formatted to detail plant selection.



GRIMM said:


>


Mine will be a lot simpler than this--I don't have nearly as many plants in this setup--but I hope to get a nice effect with it and better explain some of the plants that I have in here. 

It took me 10 minutes scrolling through that thread Grimm's to find that image. That has been quite a popular thread.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's another plant that I've been real happy with. This is the tuberous aroid _Amorphophallus konjac_. Like other related plants it has this unique parasol foliage formed of a single compound leaf.










This plant eventually grows very large (6'+), but this specimen will not get any bigger this season. When the foliage dies back down later this fall I can just lift it out of the setup and save it to grow as a houseplant next year.


----------



## frogparty

They make a weight loss drug called LIPOZENE from that Amorphophallus


----------



## hydrophyte

And it's an attractive plant too. 

If you feed it and grow it up big enough it will bloom with an amazing purple spathe.


----------



## hydrophyte

I'm just playing around with how to do this poster. I might flip it over for a horizontal orientation. I'll put the logo down at the bottom.


----------



## frogparty

What program are you using for that? Looks very clean


----------



## hydrophyte

It's just Photoshop.

I hope to work on it again tonight. I think that I want to try again to get a better picture of the whole setup and I need to get more shots of the individual plants too.


----------



## hydrophyte

I just got another big crate of manzanita via UPS. I am pondering doing yet another setup for a 20 High fish tank and making another one of these drop-in manzanita features. I have plenty of plants around here anyway.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here’s another quick picture showing that rear panel console. This covers up part of the enclosure top while also holding a circulation fan, digital temperature & humidity gauges and screen vents.


----------



## hydrophyte

Finally tonight I am going to go to meet to pick up a 5" mature female _A. metallica_. I can't wait!

This is a Wikimedia Commons image (File:Avicularia Metallica.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). I'm interested to compare this spider I am getting with some of the pictures I have seen.


----------



## hydrophyte

It will be so interesting to see what that spider does in the enclosure. I hope that it won't web up the plants too much!


----------



## jacobi

hydrophyte said:


> It will be so interesting to see what that spider does in the enclosure. I hope that it won't web up the plants too much!


You have this habit of posting comments without photos... PHOTOS, MATE, PHOTOS!! I need my fix


----------



## hydrophyte

I got photos on the way...

Another quick update for this setup is that the Panama hat plant has another new leaf growing.


----------



## MosquitoCoast

hydrophyte said:


> It will be so interesting to see what that spider does in the enclosure.


I'll tell you what it will do in the enclosure - Projectile No. 2!!!

I've been raising tarantulas and scorpions for years, but I mostly specialize in scorpions, mostly...

I've had a number of this genus of tarantulas and they tend to foul-up an enclosure like a Crested or Day Gecko.

Members of this genus typically spray on vertical surfaces, like the glass or background or a vertical log/branch. I have 2.5" A. versicolor in a Exo Terra Nano 8x8x12 and it gunites the glass walls every evening.

Fair warned is fair armed.


----------



## frogparty

The projectile poop is why I've never owned any avicularia


----------



## hydrophyte

Every night? I had read about the projectile poo, but I thought that it was defensive. This won't work if it gunks up the glass and the plants too much because I wanted to keep this as a nice display. I wish I had heard about this before.

Well if this doesn't work out I hope that I can trade for an alternative arboreal. Can you guys recommend any favorites that might work?


----------



## frogparty

Poecilotheria metallica!!!!!


----------



## hydrophyte

A _P. metallica_ would break my budget. I was also turned off to _Poecilotheria _ because of the speed and bite potential. It is awkward to work in this fish tank enclosure because it opens via a short panel up at the top. I would be less concerned with a front-opening setup that would let me see inside better.


----------



## frogparty

poecie bites are not to be trifled with. Especially a mature females bite. And if it escaped....it would kill a cat or dog if bitten


----------



## hydrophyte

Yeah _Poecilotheria_ are not for me. That's for sure.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's a quick picture. It's an attractive spider anyway. I had it out in the bathtub for a few shots.










As a courtesy the seller might have told me she has one deformed hind leg. That was a little bit annoying, but not a real big deal.


----------



## hydrophyte

Well the next morning there are just a few specs of spider poo on one leaf. 

I don't know if feeding will increase the volume(?).

There are also just a few curious single strands of silk going from the bottom of the enclosure to the top. These must be for prey detection(?).


----------



## kcexotics

The leg will correct itself on the next molt.Avics are pretty accurate at shooting poop at your face.I'd stay away from the pokies until you have a little more Tarantula experience,although a nice P.regalis or H.mac would look good in there.Look into a P.irminia they are beautiful T's,fast and mean.But don't have the powerful venom most of the Asiatics have.


----------



## frogparty

I love the sun tigers too. Awesome spider. Im not a big NW spider fan for the urticating hairs.


----------



## hydrophyte

kcexotics said:


> The leg will correct itself on the next molt.Avics are pretty accurate at shooting poop at your face.I'd stay away from the pokies until you have a little more Tarantula experience,although a nice P.regalis or H.mac would look good in there.Look into a P.irminia they are beautiful T's,fast and mean.But don't have the powerful venom most of the Asiatics have.





frogparty said:


> I love the sun tigers too. Awesome spider. Im not a big NW spider fan for the urticating hairs.


This is actually an adult, so I won't see any more molts. The leg deformity isn't too bad. Yeah I'm not going to be getting any _Poecilotheria _or anything similar. I do like the idea of the _Psalmopoeus irminia_. If I decide to trade up that is what I will look for.

I shouldn't have to worry much about urticating hairs or being crapped at by this _metallica_. She seems very mellow and If everything goes right with the enclosure I won't have much reason to disturb her. I might try to get some more pictures but otherwise don't have any reason for handling this spider.


----------



## hydrophyte

I really like this spider.

This is just exactly what I envisioned for this setup.


----------



## *Self_DeFenCe*

Poecilotheria aren't that bad, they're just shy and skittish. IMO, a Psalmopoeus irminia would give more shivers than a Poecilotheria because they will bite.


----------



## kcexotics

hydrophyte said:


> This is actually an adult, so I won't see any more molts. The leg deformity isn't too bad. Yeah I'm not going to be getting any _Poecilotheria _or anything similar. I do like the idea of the _Psalmopoeus irminia_. If I decide to trade up that is what I will look for.
> 
> I shouldn't have to worry much about urticating hairs or being crapped at by this _metallica_. She seems very mellow and If everything goes right with the enclosure I won't have much reason to disturb her. I might try to get some more pictures but otherwise don't have any reason for handling this spider.


Tarantulas don't have a final molt like scorpions.She still has about two more inchs of growing to do.She will molt about once a year.


----------



## Totenkampf

i'm no tarantula expert but i had a mexican redleg, a redknee, and a cinnamin as a kid. they all lived 10-15 years and all continued to molt throughout their entire lives. the cinnamin actually lost two legs when my sister knocked over her cage and she molted soon after that. both legs were replaced.

good choice not to try geosesarma with this aquarium. i have been working with some for a short while and they dont seem to climb much so a vertically oriented viv is a waste on them. my 'red devils' dont seem to mind just a large water dish but i think a larger water feature is better so their habitat is getting revamped soon. oh look i sorta made a pun. nice.


----------



## hydrophyte

Well I'm ignorant. I thought the adult molt was the last. Now I know better.


----------



## hydrophyte

Totenkampf said:


> good choice not to try geosesarma with this aquarium. i have been working with some for a short while and they dont seem to climb much so a vertically oriented viv is a waste on them. my 'red devils' dont seem to mind just a large water dish but i think a larger water feature is better so their habitat is getting revamped soon. oh look i sorta made a pun. nice.


Yeah I think that if were to keep _Geosesarma_ I would instead use something like a standard viv setup with a good-sized water feature and maybe a waterfall.

Do you have any pictures of them?


----------



## kcexotics

hydrophyte said:


> Well I'm ignorant. I thought the adult molt was the last. Now I know better.


For Mature males it is 98% die in molt after they are hooked out because they cant get there pedipalps out.


----------



## winstonamc

Devin, that looks so awesome. Seriously nice work


----------



## hydrophyte

winstonamc said:


> Devin, that looks so awesome. Seriously nice work


Hey thanks! It was a long wait getting that spider in there, but I really like the way it looks.


----------



## hydrophyte

Another quick shot, closer...


----------



## hydrophyte

I just reformatted this picture quick with names for the plants.










There are some cool plants in there. I'm not kidding.


----------



## jacobi

Awesome!!!!!!!


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks jacobi!


----------



## hydrophyte

Spider was out crawling around today...


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's another quick shot a little bit closer.


----------



## nilraf

That is an awesome way to showcase some wood, looking awesome!


----------



## hydrophyte

nilraf said:


> That is an awesome way to showcase some wood, looking awesome!


Thanks nilraf!


----------



## hydrophyte

Hey I got a really cool new collector aroid, _Stenospermation marantifolium_.










It might be a good plant to put in this setup. I think it is a terrestrial and it is pretty good sized. The longest of these cut canes in 14" long. 

I found this Flickr photo album with wild plants in the Osa Peninsula (I've been there!) Costa Rica.

Stenospermation marantifolium Hemsl. | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


----------



## skanderson

something about that name always makes me chuckle.


----------



## hydrophyte

I was happy to find one that is a sturdier plant. The only one that I had seen around before is the that smaller species that blackjungle sells.


----------



## hydrophyte

I'm tidying up this setup again and I might have some new pictures to post later on. I want to take some time to get a few good studio full-tank shots.


----------



## hydrophyte

The avic is walking laps around here enclosure. She doesn't seem bothered at all by the lights which are on bright and shiny. I gotta get a video recorder so I can get video of here moving around like this. She climbs all over the plants and the driftwood.


----------



## FrogBoyMike

loving the setup. And the wood piece is a great idea!


----------



## hydrophyte

FrogBoyMike said:


> loving the setup. And the wood piece is a great idea!


Thanks FrogBoyMike!


----------



## Sammie

hydrophyte said:


> The avic is walking laps around here enclosure. She doesn't seem bothered at all by the lights which are on bright and shiny. I gotta get a video recorder so I can get video of here moving around like this. She climbs all over the plants and the driftwood.


Is she doing this all the time? Tarantulas usually don't wander around much (unless it's a adult male), and certainly not before lights goes out.
I'm not saying something has to be wrong, but that behavior is far from typical.


----------



## hydrophyte

I think she is OK. I don't have a lot of experience, but I think that avics and other arboreals do more crawling around than other tarantulas. This avic seems to be indifferent to the light.


----------



## hydrophyte

Well she finally did some more webbing and built a web hammock up in the right rear corner of the enclosure. I think she must feel more comfortable there because I see here walking around the enclosure a lot less. Now I wish that I had gotten more pictures when she was more active, but I'm glad that she has settled down because I was worried about all of the falls that she took. She never hurt herself, but I watched her tumble from the top of the tank a couple of times.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here you can see the web hammock that she made up in the rear right-hand corner. She has just been hanging out there in the web for days, but last night she was out for a little while and I got this shot.


----------



## Cfrog

Beautiful


----------



## hydrophyte

rain dart said:


> Beautiful


Thanks! I really like this avic a lot and I think that it combines really well with the plants. I definitely want to do more planted vivs with arboreal T's.


----------



## hydrophyte

I have done a few changes with this setup. It wasn't ventilating well enough (not good for tarantulas!) because the little 50mm fan that I was using to blow air across the vents died on me. I decided to replace the glass panel on top with aluminum screen. I had originally opted for glass because I thought that by closing it up more I could keep more warmth inside. I have decided to add another lamp for heat and I will see how that works for maintaining temps while our house cools down this winter. This is what I got...

Exo Terra : Night Heat Lamp

This was a lot cheaper than the ceramic infrared lamp that I was considering. I also like that it casts some light as a safety consideration. This will be a good reminder that I have it plugged in. I also do like the dim blue-violet light that I see in the enclosure when everything else is all dark. 

The planting has grown up some more. The T also looks happy. I will try to get some update pictures sometime soon.


----------



## hydrophyte

I might replant this thing sometimes soon. I want to change the general layout. I might plant some orchids on the manzanita. I'm thinking about it.


----------



## jacobi

hydrophyte said:


> I might replant this thing sometimes soon. I want to change the general layout. I might plant some orchids on the manzanita. I'm thinking about it.


This is what is known as a "Tease".


----------



## hydrophyte

jacobi said:


> This is what is known as a "Tease".


Sorry, yes, that is awfully vague.

I think that I want to change this to make a planting more like what I have in my 12 X 12 Exo, with pretty short terrestrial plants planted into the bottom and with epiphytes planted up around the top of the manzanita. I don't have a recent picture, but you can see below that some of the plants are pretty tall and reach up to the top of the enclosure. They have grown even more and now are covering a lot of the branches. They also cast a lot of shade and now the only part of the tank that is very well illuminated is the front, with the effect that the whole thing lacks visual depth and looks flat.










Here is a recent shot of the 12 X 12. To me this photo looks like a larger enclosure than the 37G. The shorter plants in the bottom and areas of bare manzanita branches create an effect of greater height.










For the 37G I want to just leave the small palms in the bottom and maybe add a few more short plants, then plant orchids and/or Tillandsia up around the top. It would be fun to look around for some more unusual orchids that will fit well in the space. I will come back later to ask for ideas.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's a shot from eight months ago showing just the manzanita in the enclosure. For this replanting I might add another thick manzanita branch over on the left side, which is a little too open and looks unbalanced. 

I want to find several real nice epiphytes the mount up around the top. Larger specimens will need to be of the kinds of plants that can be mounted sideways. I should use orchids also having compact flowers that will stay within the space and they should also have more attractive foliage. Does anybody have any ideas? This is a more airy setup, but I can mist it every couple of days. It will be too dry for most small plaeurothallids, mosses and mini ferns. I also want to add one or two real nice specimen _Tillandsia_.

I would appreciate any plant suggestions.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's an orchid that would probably be a good choice for this replanting project, _Barkaria spectabilis_. I used to have this one--this is my picture--and now I'm sorry that I sold it off. It's a pretty common species however and I should be able to find another one.










This orchid is a good size and shape. It grows laterally or semi-pendant and it has nice thick white orchid roots. The inflorescence is compact too.


----------



## boon

Hello Devin. 

Nice to see you here. Looks like I have a plant source for my Vivarium. Awesome looking tank you got there. I was going to do something similar like yours but opt out because I wanted some sort of water. 

See ya around.


----------



## hydrophyte

boon said:


> Hello Devin.
> 
> Nice to see you here. Looks like I have a plant source for my Vivarium. Awesome looking tank you got there. I was going to do something similar like yours but opt out because I wanted some sort of water.
> 
> See ya around.


Hey Boon it's great to see you here. You make nice setups and I look forward to seeing what you put together. I have shipped out a lot of stuff but I do have a few plants here.

I think that I might start redoing this thing tonight in the middle of the night. Unfortunately I am going to have to take down that web tube that took the avic so long to build. I hope that she will put together a new one more promptly after I get stuff put back together.


----------



## hydrophyte

_Quick shot from earlier tonight..._


----------



## hydrophyte

I found something fun on the Internets. This is a photo album with shots of _Avicularia_ spp. and tube webs in their habitats...

Avicularia sp.  from Bolivia, Beni province


----------



## hydrophyte

Another quick shot...


----------



## jacobi

Very nice. I like the purple night sky


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks. I really like this setup with the open back. It has more visual depth and the green foliage and brown leaf litter look really good against that purple wall.


----------



## hydrophyte

The spider is molting right now. I hope that it goes OK.


----------



## EPP Aqua Store

I'm not a big fan of Arachnids but that's a darn nice setup!


----------



## hydrophyte

Thanks! The planting grew in a bit too full and now I'm redoing it with new plants. I am taking out all of the taller plants and putting epiphytes up at the tops of the branches. I will try to have more pictures soon.

The molt went fine and now the avic has very bright colors. I need to use the forceps to pull the exuvium out of her tube hide.


----------



## hydrophyte

Yesterday I scored my first new epiphyte for use in this tank, a nice specimen of _Aerangis biloba_ for twenty bucks. It's a good-sized plants about 6" wide, but it has a growth habit and flowering habit that should fit well in this enclosure.

The foliage is really cool too. Each leaf has a pair of uneven lobes at the end and a dark reticulating vein pattern. At first glance I thought it was a small _Platycerium_ fern.

I hope that it will do well in this viv. The care requirements sound more or less compatible. It is a shade plant, so I might mount it beneath a _Tillandsia_ or other plant positioned higher on the manzanita branches.

(








(Wikimedia Commons image: File:Aerangis biloba.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


----------



## hydrophyte

I'm just shopping for more plants and leaving a list here with a few to watch out for.

I'm interested in getting more real compact orchids, especially less common ones that might be something other than pleurothallids or _Bulbophyllum_ spp.. 


_Ascocentrum pumilium_
_Malaxis_ spp. various SE asia terrestrials, Andy's Orchids has several... Andy's Orchids - Orchid Species - Power Search results
_Dendroboium jenkinsii_
_Dyakia hendersoniana_
_Haraella odorata_
_Isabelia virginalis_

...more later...


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's another quick detail shot from the other night. I am going to remove most of these plants for the replanting project.


----------



## hydrophyte

This is a crummy photo, but I wanted to shoot one quick while she was out.

With her molt the avic assumed this amazing dark cobalt blue all over. She is also about 3/4" larger.


----------



## jacobi

Wow. She looks gorgeous.


----------



## hydrophyte

Yeah I was really amazed when I saw her crawl out after her molt.

I'll have to try to get some better pictures.


----------



## Julio

Fresh from a pedicure with her flashy nail polish!


----------



## hydrophyte

Julio said:


> Fresh from a pedicure with her flashy nail polish!


I never imagined how much better she would look after molting.

I really like these tarantulas a lot. I hope that I can make room here for a few more species.


----------



## skanderson

i dont know if i have enough to part out with yet but i have the orchids on your list. should be able to part with a bit of a couple of them. i think that i bought my malaxis at andys this fall as a mounted specimen but i would have to check on that. i dont have all the new plants from andys mounted in the viv yet either but i will try to round up some pics.


----------



## hydrophyte

skanderson said:


> i dont know if i have enough to part out with yet but i have the orchids on your list. should be able to part with a bit of a couple of them. i think that i bought my malaxis at andys this fall as a mounted specimen but i would have to check on that. i dont have all the new plants from andys mounted in the viv yet either but i will try to round up some pics.


Hey I'd love to do some trades for a few plants. I have some things here that I think would be real good in your big viv.


----------



## jacobi

hydrophyte said:


> I really like these tarantulas a lot. I hope that I can make room here for a few more species.


Which species are you interested in?


----------



## hydrophyte

Well I'm mainly interested in arboreals because of the interesting possibilities for combining them with planted setups. I'd like to track down a _P. irminia_ or other _Psalmopoeus_, as well as some more avics. It was nice to get these couple of adult spiders, but I should also get some more slings going as long-term projects. 

I don't want any Ts with real gnarly bites because I don't need any more stuff to worry about around here. 

I also want to do more research on the habits and habitats of wild Ts. I have found a view photo albums and videos here and there but not a whole lot of detail. It would be fun to plan a photo expedition down south somewhere.


----------



## hydrophyte

I am going to get back to replanting this thing pretty soon. Since she molted the avic has spent less of her time inside of her silk tube, so I will feel less bad about wrecking it. I will work fast and replace everything so she can build a new one if she wants to.


----------



## hydrophyte

For real tomorrow I am going to get back into this thing and start replanting it. I am going to remove the Panama hat plant and the other tall plants. I hope that I can repot the Panama hat plant and keep it as a houseplant. 

The spider has been quite active again and she walks around every day. I never imagined that a tarantula would be so charming.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here she is hangin' out under one of the little palm trees and munching a tasty roach.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's that same shot cropped a bit closer.


----------



## hydrophyte

Well I removed the Panama hat plant, the _Schismatoglottis_ and the philo and now you can see the manzanita a lot better. I also added five different _Tillandsia_ and that _Aerangis biloba_ orchid. 










I removed the silk tube. The spider hasn't been using it much anymore and I think she built it mainly for molting. I am going to have to think some more about how to arrange these epiphytic plants to get a nice visual arrangement. I might add one or two more manzanita branches because there is too much empty space on the top right-hand side.


----------



## frogparty

I know someone who wants that Schismatoglottis


----------



## hydrophyte

frogparty said:


> I know someone who wants that Schismatoglottis


I'll have to go look and see if I still have extras of that one.


----------



## frogparty

Im surprised to see that Avicularia on the ground. Don't think Ive ever seen one not up high in an enclosure


----------



## hydrophyte

She goes down to the bottom to hunt and to drink water from her dish. I try to feed her only when she's near the bottom so that she won't take a long tumble while trying to grab the roach. Usually she is up in the top corners of the enclosure. I wish that she would hang out on the manzanita, but she likes the glass much better.


----------



## hydrophyte

Here's the Panama hat plant after I yanked it out to start my replanting project. There was five feet of healthy white roots snaking around in the water under the false bottom.


----------



## hydrophyte

More spider pictures...


----------



## eos

Sexy! ....


----------



## hydrophyte

Hey thanks for the likes you guys.

Here's another view of that Panama hat plant. It sure grew well in there.


----------



## frogparty

fantastic spider pics!!!!


----------



## hydrophyte

frogparty said:


> fantastic spider pics!!!!


This avic has been really great. I had no idea that it would be this charming and entertaining.


----------



## hydrophyte

Another quick spider picture.


----------



## EPI

Good looking tarantula 😃


----------



## hydrophyte

EPI said:


> Good looking tarantula 😃


Thanks! I hope to get the whole enclosure replanted sometime soon so I can get more pictures. I really like the combination of the orchids and Tillandsia up on top with the mini palms planted below.


----------

