# shipping during extreme winter temps? how to??



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

ok..i've shipped during spring good weather and extremely hot weather with no problems. How in the world do you ship during winter months? lets say froglets to juvies? I have the supplies, just wondering how it is done. Can't recall ever receiving a shipment during the winter....it can get might cold here in mn...windshields 60 below, so is shipping out of the question i guess i am asking during the winter or can it be done safely for the darts, and if so, how. Can anyone explain the procedure? i'm so used to shipping even during 100 degree weather, but not during our winter months. thanks again, kristy


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

The simplest solution - you do not ship during extreme weather.

You'll note that the "major" producers here all tend to throw up their ads at the same time in wintertime. That normally means that they're feeling safe about the weather.

Maybe Shawn (Sports Doc) will chime in here on his "extreme" temp allowances.

s


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

i kind of sensed that so thought i'd ask. thanks for the info. what is good cold weather and how to do it then? when spring rolls around? kristy


----------



## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

As Scott said, if possible - avoid it.

I try and sell off/give away as much of my stock as I can in the fall. Anything that produces during the winter I then usually hold until spring (a good way to get a lot of adult size frogs).

But, it can be done, and I have done it. I try not to ship if the lows get below the upper 20s. There are several threads on shipping like this. Brian (dancing_frogs) has a great post that uses some phase change material. He also started some good threads with data from a data logger being shipped around that DB members helped chip in the shipping for to get an idea of the conditions the box experiences in transit.

I personally go the double styro route. I pack the frogs in a styro with gel packs. That styro goes inside of another styro that has heat packs in it. This provides a temp buffer between the extremes outside, but doesn't cook the frogs. But - this does mean a bigger box - and therefore higher shipping charges.

Brian's method with the PCMs and thick styro eliminates the need for double styros IIRC.

Oz


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

thanks oz. i think you are referring to the phase 22 panels? i'll ask brian, but yeah shipping during our extremes(winter is a bummer here in mn) i can totally understand the issue at hand. I'm not for harming any darts either. that was the reason i had to ask. I am pretty sure some vendors ship if over 25...i would expect them also to be picked up at a staffed fedex location, rather than delivered? having more adult frogs to offer is also a good idea. kristy


----------



## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Phase 22s may be it - there are a lot of Phase Change Materials (PCMs) that could work, but I think those were the ones that he did the research with.

I always prefer the frogs to be held for pickup if possible, but yes - this is moreso in the winter months.


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

gotcha kristy


----------



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Here's mine. I've shipped this box in both extremes of hot and cold. Haven't lost a frog yet. I use the PCM gel packs from Saf-T-Pak. You can use them to keep things cool during hot weather and warm during cold weather.

I put together my own double insulated box using the foam insulation material.









On the bottom goes 1 or 2 gel packs, then the frogs. This one has a heat pack taped to the left side for cold weather shipping.









I add foam peanuts to take up any empty space, then another 1 or 2 gel packs on top, and then top foam cover goes on.









I think shipping this box UPS or Fed Ex would be a little pricey but USPS Express Overnight Mail is not bad at all.

I use this box to ship a quanity of frogs. It can certainly be dowsized to ship just a few frogs.

The PCM gel packs are pricey but reusable. One of my stipulations to ship frogs this way is that the box and gel packs are returned to me. So far that has not been a problem.


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

boombotty has used that same material to ship to me. great vendor. so where do you get these gel packs , and where to get that foam? the illustration was extremely helpful. may i ask what the lowest temps you have shi[pped to? i have shipped in extreme high temps exceeding 100....being careful how i pack...becomes heavy but necessary and have never lost a frog. knock on wood. but these were also adults. i know i might have some froglets/juvies. mine are maybe 1 month ootw and i feel that is way too young to ship. geeze when i feed, a couple like to play dead for a second...little buggers! so 3 months out i might feel more comfy i think. do you offer live guarantee gary? how does that work in low temps? i have no problem with live arrival guarnatee. they arent spendy darts...some tincs. but still care about them, if that makes sense. great illustration. kristy


----------



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

It was last winter when I shipped it. I'm lucky if I can remember the weather from last week  But I live in the Buffalo, NY area so that should tell you something  I'm thinking it was probably in the 30s.

I have done quite a bit of testing on the box without frogs in it using a data logger under circumstances that are far worse than the frogs would experience in actual shipping. Always had good results.

The gel packs you can get at Saf-T-Pak - Home Unfortunately you can't just buy a few. They come as a case of 16 I think. You need to find a group to go in with you on the purchase. Joshs Frogs sells something similar but they're not as heavy duty as the Saf-T-Pak ones.

The foam insulation you can get at Lowes or Home Depot.


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

rozdaboff said:


> As Scott said, if possible - avoid it.
> 
> I try and sell off/give away as much of my stock as I can in the fall. Anything that produces during the winter I then usually hold until spring (a good way to get a lot of adult size frogs).
> 
> ...


Yes, phase 22.
I've got logs and logs and logs, search some of my old posts if the search function will co-operate.
I've also got some different pcms that I've been playing with, one is phase5 (would be to protect from downright freezing) and the other is exo-gel, which has a higher phase change temp, which would be great for summer.
Long story short, with enough phase 22 and insulation, you theoreticly ship in ANY weather.
In one of my threads, we shipped a logger during cold weather, and found that the package was never exposed to anything near outside temps.
Lunch break over...gotta go, more later.


----------



## pilo0024 (Aug 22, 2006)

about the foam Kristy, 
I found it at Menards and it comes in giant sheets in multiple thickness levels. It's what I am using to make my fake rocks currently. Ask someone where they keep their Polystyrene insulation sheets. Goes for under 10 bucks for a 4x8 foot sheet or something like that.


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

brian LOL....you know your in for it on friday....and you always have a "lunch break" . How we ever gonna make it to chicago? he he

Gary thanks for all the pertinent info. It was very much appreciated. cool

pilo thank you for the clarification. I'll check it out. 

scotts frogs he sent not too long ago(boombotty) was packaged in this same stuff. originally when he said he makes his own shipping boxes i was skeptical, lol, but when tjhey got here, it seemed twice as good as the styrofoam insulated boxes i use during the summer. Just had no clue until now where in the world he got it. thanks! kristy


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

kristy55303 said:


> boombotty has used that same material to ship to me. great vendor. so where do you get these gel packs , and where to get that foam? the illustration was extremely helpful. may i ask what the lowest temps you have shi[pped to? i have shipped in extreme high temps exceeding 100....being careful how i pack...becomes heavy but necessary and have never lost a frog. knock on wood. but these were also adults. i know i might have some froglets/juvies. mine are maybe 1 month ootw and i feel that is way too young to ship. geeze when i feed, a couple like to play dead for a second...little buggers! so 3 months out i might feel more comfy i think. do you offer live guarantee gary? how does that work in low temps? i have no problem with live arrival guarnatee. they arent spendy darts...some tincs. but still care about them, if that makes sense. great illustration. kristy


I usually won't ship if the temps are predicted to be under 15F at any point in transit.
My packaging performs good enough, that I could go far below that temp, but usually if one is patient, a window opens even in the dead of winter. That, and the fact that when it is actually cold (like single digit and below) things start to happen, like car/truck batteries going dead, airports/planes having problems with ice, etc.

FWIW, I'd much rather ship in the cold of winter, than in the heat of summer, and I'm not the lone ranger here either.


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

thanks brain. sounds good. i'll have you updaye me on your shipping methods during the trip. kristy


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

there is a shipping care sheet in the works. wont help you now, but the staff will try and get it out b/f deep winter.

gary has a good approach. I use the 48hr heat packs, one for each 15F you want to increase temp.

I also use a barrier of foam board b/t the heat packs and the frogs. I've never used the PSM but may at some point. NOT CHEAP.

S


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> there is a shipping care sheet in the works. wont help you now, but the staff will try and get it out b/f deep winter.
> 
> gary has a good approach. I use the 48hr heat packs, one for each 15F you want to increase temp.
> 
> ...


sounds good. thanks for the info and i'll be looking forward to that caresheet. yeah, phase 22 not cheap, i've been asked to send shippers them back and i have no problem doing so...for the safety of the darts it is best at times. maybe i'll see some for sale at mwff so i dont have to pay shipping. i do have 48 hour heat packs and shipping containers etc. you said 15f....meaning 15 froglets? kristy


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

sorry, 15 degrees Fahrenheit

an approximation of temp increase above outside/ambient temps, that one heat pack will maintain.

ie: Inside you want 60F, outside temp is 30F --> need 2 packs [15F each]

capish?

S


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I don't do heat packs since starting to use phase 22.
The original idea (before I experimented with it) was to use it in conjunction with heat packs, but for the most part, I found the heat packs just added more size to the package.


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> sorry, 15 degrees Fahrenheit
> 
> an approximation of temp increase above outside/ambient temps, that one heat pack will maintain.
> 
> ...


oh ok...its was just a blonde moment lol. let me use that as my excuse! he he. never thought of it in degrees. duh....kristy wake up! lol. honestly thought you meant f for froglets. ok...its been a long day already thanks a bunch for the clarification kristy


----------



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Dancing frogs said:


> I don't do heat packs since starting to use phase 22.
> The original idea (before I experimented with it) was to use it in conjunction with heat packs, but for the most part, I found the heat packs just added more size to the package.



You're a brave soul Brian 

I think my packaging would make it as well without heat packs during the cold winter I just haven't had the nerve to try it yet. Sometimes I actually worry about the frogs getting to hot with the heat packs. Unfortunately there's no way to really control them.


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I figure, if the package will hold temps in a safe margin after being in a single-negative temps in the freezer for 30 hours, 15F is nothing to worry about.

Before using the phase 22, I used a styro lined box (home-made with 1.5-2" thick insulation) with a false bottom which housed the 40hr heat packs. The heat packs were separated from the cargo by el cheapo gel packs.
Had good success with that method as well, a few times, packages got delayed (ended up arriving 2 days instead of overnight) in mid 20's (F) and nothing happened, besides me losing an extra night of sleep.
Looking at the logs we did seeing what temps a package actually sees (rarely approaching freezing), this is not surprizng to me...

Im kind of wondering if one could use butter or something in place of the phase 22, as it too has a phase temp somewhere around room temp, and is a little easier to come by.


----------



## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Dancing frogs said:


> Im kind of wondering if one could use butter or something in place of the phase 22, as it too has a phase temp somewhere around room temp, and is a little easier to come by.


Attendant = Does the package contain any liquid or anything fragile, hazardous or perishable?

Brian = Yes, fragile and perishable.

Attendant = And what is in the box?

Brian = Uh.... butter.

Yup - that won't be odd or anything.


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

LOL!
Parkay!


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

wow i havent laughed this hard in a long time! oz, that was good. brian, you always make me laugh. kristy


----------



## Riley (Sep 20, 2008)

I can't believe its not butter!


----------



## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

gary1218 said:


> You're a brave soul Brian
> 
> I think my packaging would make it as well without heat packs during the cold winter I just haven't had the nerve to try it yet. Sometimes I actually worry about the frogs getting to hot with the heat packs. Unfortunately there's no way to really control them.


PCMs are a lot more reliable, and safe, than heat packs.

As to the cost of PCMs, they, unlike heat packs, are nigh infinitely reusable. You can charge your customer for them, and they can reuse (or resell) them, or you can tack on a deposit, refundable upon return. 

I'm pretty sure that butter or margarine: 

a)melts at a higher temp than we are aiming for
and 
b)doesn't have as high of a phase change heat as Glauber's salts


----------

