# Breeding Tinc Trios



## eyeviper

I just recently got a trio of breeding azureus. I have only had pairs in the past and thought it would be interesting to see the behavior/ interaction and if there would be a preference to which mate was choosen the most. They have settled in and I have begun to see some breeding behavior. I know trios work great for some, not so for others, and seems to depend on the frogs. I just wanted to hear some others experiences good or bad with tinc trios.


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## frogfreak

Almost all of my Tincs are kept male heavy except a couple of vivs. I have as many as 4 males to 1 female. Lucky girl!  I don't keep more than 1 female in each viv yet only because I feel they aren't large enough.


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## eyeviper

I have 2 females 1 male. I have heard the heavy male groups can work. I have yet to witness any aggression from my females minus the odd jump on anothers head for more flies, I watch daily to make sure. How has the breeding been? As pairs they can crank out some eggs, have you seen a decrese in production keeping larger groups?


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## frogfreak

The production is almost identical. I found that very interesting. If the females were brought up together they could be fine. I know some people with more than 1 female and eggs eating is the only real issue they've seen. I did have 2 Alanis females together for a while, but when breeding age was reached I had to separate them due to aggression. I always seem to end up with more males than females.


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## B-NICE

I heard once they reach sexual maturity they are best to be kept in pairs.


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## Woodsman

Best kept in pairs.

Richard.


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## Ed

B-NICE said:


> I heard once they reach sexual maturity they are best to be kept in pairs.


In the bad old days, it wasn't uncommon to keep tictorious in groups even with multiple females. Then there was a lot of buzz about females drowning other females and combat between females killing females so then a number of people began to recommend to not keep them in groups. Over time this has become dogma that it is wrong to keep them in any groups and they should only be kept in pairs. It does give beginners the best chance of success so it has become dogma.

Male heavy groups do better since females do attempt to control access to the males, while males simply attempt to defend calling and egg deposition sites. So both sexes can combat. You need to be able to have males set up in disparate areas of the tank so the females end up having thier own males to defend. This reduces (and if done properly can totally prevent) aggression between the females. Given the way today's tanks are often set up, this is difficult since space is lost to massive decorations and plantings. 

So for the OP is it a 1.2 or a 2.1 trio? 

Ed


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## Boondoggle

All things being equal, pairs are generally preferred to trios (with tincs). Since you are female heavy you will have to keep an eye on them. Occasionally female tincs will put up with one another, but typically not.

I have number of tincs, and two of those tanks contain trios. Both tanks are over 45 gallons, with plenty of hides. My trio of 2.1 does fine. I never see outward aggression, both males court her at different times and everyone is fat.

My other trio is 1.2. I don't see outward aggression but... One of the females is huge, and the other is of healthy size, but just barely. I'm fairly certain only the large female is breeding, while the smaller female spends a lot of time hiding. It wasn't my intention to house 2 females together, it just took a while to determine gender with these, and by then they had been housed together for a long time and were "cooperating". It's about the best case scenario you can hope for with 1.2 in a "typical" viv and it's not exactly optimum. I will probably separate them eventually and sell off the "3rd wheel". 

If your tank is big enough to support 3, I would suggest selling off the female and replacing it with a male.

My 2 cents.


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## eyeviper

Woodsman said:


> Best kept in pairs.
> 
> Richard.


Well aware of this common belief, This can hopefully be more of a discussion on group breeding as opposed to just sticking with the norm.

Eds post is interesting, basically saying have multiple pairs within an enclosure as opposed to having a one sex heavy poplulation. It reminds me of the aquarium hobby. many agressive fish kept together split end of the tank and thats that. As with much of the hobby, correct enclosure habitat plays a large part. frogfreak had a good point with age/ time together, I have seen little outward aggression of these females and both are equal size. I have seen one female more open to chase the male around though. perhaps Ed can chime in again with the zoology, but though not known in nature perhaps like in many animals a hierachy could form with groups? many animals group but only dominant individuals breed untill one dies and another steps up. (just a thought, I am not saying PDF have a hierachal nature) It would be great to DNA test eggs and see if there is a lack of breeding from one frog or another.


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## Baltimore Bryan

I've always had best success, especially with breeding, by keeping them in pairs. I've had mixed results with 2.1 trios... but in each case, breeding results were sub-par compared to just pairs. One time, I had a trio and one male wrestled with the other male, it wasn't particularly problematic in the sense that he didn't chase him all over the tank, just out of his space, but unfortunately during one of their wrestles on male broke the other's arm and he never recovered. Another time, both males were fine together, but the males were much more interested it seemed in competing with one another instead of breeding. The male and female would be courting, and then the other male would come out and break it up, and it went back and forth between which was the "dominant" male without much egg production.
I'm sure tincs can be kept in groups, especially in well designed tanks to maximize separate territories for individual frogs, but it can be tough to do this in small-medium tanks, and personally, it's not worth the hassle for me so I stick to pairs.
Good luck,
Bryan


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## Woodsman

Sorry my belief is common, but it is also true. I have some experience with the species.

Richard.



eyeviper said:


> Well aware of this common belief, This can hopefully be more of a discussion on group breeding as opposed to just sticking with the norm.
> 
> Eds post is interesting, basically saying have multiple pairs within an enclosure as opposed to having a one sex heavy poplulation. It reminds me of the aquarium hobby. many agressive fish kept together split end of the tank and thats that. As with much of the hobby, correct enclosure habitat plays a large part. frogfreak had a good point with age/ time together, I have seen little outward aggression of these females and both are equal size. I have seen one female more open to chase the male around though. perhaps Ed can chime in again with the zoology, but though not known in nature perhaps like in many animals a hierachy could form with groups? many animals group but only dominant individuals breed untill one dies and another steps up. (just a thought, I am not saying PDF have a hierachal nature) It would be great to DNA test eggs and see if there is a lack of breeding from one frog or another.


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## evolvstll

Woodsman said:


> Sorry my belief is common, but it is also true. I have some experience with the species.
> 
> Richard.


I second that.


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## B-NICE

Woodsman said:


> Sorry my belief is common, but it is also true. I have some experience with the species.
> 
> Richard.


Some? You mean a lot lol. I read an article about you Sir..


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## Ed

Woodsman said:


> Sorry my belief is common, but it is also true. I have some experience with the species.
> 
> Richard.


Regardless of whether it is true or it, it is also presented as dogma..When the idea comes up around housing them in groups, people are told emphatically that the best way is to house them in pairs regardless of the size of the enclosure (and now we also see recommendations that a 40 gallon tank is only sufficiently big enough for a pair). If we go back (to the not so distant past) to when the recommendations were to use a 5 gallon/frog rule of thumb for populating tanks meant that it wasn't uncommon to house four in a 20 gallon long with good success.....

It is true that it is easier for people to have success with pair since there is little need to understand the population dynamics of housing a group of them together... so as a recipe it is successful but it also has it's downsides... 
One of the reasons, when this discussion comes up, I often reference the historical perspective. 

Ed


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## Ed

Baltimore Bryan said:


> he didn't chase him all over the tank, just out of his space, but unfortunately during one of their wrestles on male broke the other's arm and he never recovered.


Oddly enough if it was a true fracture of the bone, it supports evidence in other taxa of anurans that supplementation with only oral D3 doesn't optimize bone strength in anurans. 

Ed


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## Ed

eyeviper said:


> een one female more open to chase the male around though. perhaps Ed can chime in again with the zoology, but though not known in nature perhaps like in many animals a hierachy could form with groups? many animals group but only dominant individuals breed untill one dies and another steps up. (just a thought, I am not saying PDF have a hierachal nature) It would be great to DNA test eggs and see if there is a lack of breeding from one frog or another.


No they don't form heirachial nature. If there is a dominant individual it is because it is more able to defend access to the reproductive resources than the other frogs. 

Ed


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## eyeviper

Woodsman said:


> Sorry my belief is common, but it is also true. I have some experience with the species.
> 
> Richard.


I respect that, nothing to offend i just want to get past the cut and paste stuff we always hear and get some peoples experiences. Not a sentence saying it must be so, I am not asking if I can do it, if it can be done, or what to do with my own frogs. I want to know what people have found from keeping groups. I would love to hear more of your experiences with groups that have not worked and perhaps why they have not. what observations did you get while keeping groups etc?


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## eyeviper

Ed said:


> Regardless of whether it is true or it, it is also presented as dogma..When the idea comes up around housing them in groups, people are told emphatically that the best way is to house them in pairs regardless of the size of the enclosure (and now we also see recommendations that a 40 gallon tank is only sufficiently big enough for a pair). If we go back (to the not so distant past) to when the recommendations were to use a 5 gallon/frog rule of thumb for populating tanks meant that it wasn't uncommon to house four in a 20 gallon long with good success.....
> 
> It is true that it is easier for people to have success with pair since there is little need to understand the population dynamics of housing a group of them together... so as a recipe it is successful but it also has it's downsides...
> One of the reasons, when this discussion comes up, I often reference the historical perspective.
> 
> Ed


I like your thinking Ed, say you hypothetically provide a large enough space for groups to show natural breeding behaviors. Would we find monogamous behavior or would females travel from one males territory to anothers territory? What downsides have you found to pair breeding Vs group breeding?


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## Ed

eyeviper said:


> I like your thinking Ed, say you hypothetically provide a large enough space for groups to show natural breeding behaviors. Would we find monogamous behavior or would females travel from one males territory to anothers territory? What downsides have you found to pair breeding Vs group breeding?


The issue is that you require more than just space. You need to be able to set up the resources correctly so there is enough that there is limited competition for them. What you would tend to find is that males and females try to set up territories that overlap one or more of the opposite sex (and there is a potential for territorial floaters). Unlike frogs in enclosures, males and females don't hold territories for longer than a season since both require large amounts of calories (we also probably see an enhanced egg production rate to the high amounts of calories fed to the frogs), to sustain. In the wild, territories tend to turn over as animals lose condition due to the calling, egg production etc and they also turn over during the dry season. 
In the enclosure you need to seperate the breeding spots (like cocohuts) and provide visual barriers so the frogs can't see one another. 

Ed


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## Woodsman

Hi Ed.

I hope you know me well enough to know that I'm not interested in dogma. There are MANY ways to keep and breed dart frogs successfully. I do see this question come up pretty frequently with reguards to D. tinctorius and I do feel the best advice to newer hobbyists is to play it safe with pairs (I also find that pairs are the best way to keep tincs if the keeper is interested in maximizing breeding). 

I have heard too many stories here on Db of people asking why their tincs keep dying when they keep them in groups (and had a similar experience early on in keeping dart frogs back in 1998). So I'll stick with the "dogma", if it means that fewer frogs will become stressed and die unnecessarily.

Again, this is all by way of my own opinion.

Take care, Richard.



Ed said:


> Regardless of whether it is true or it, it is also presented as dogma..When the idea comes up around housing them in groups, people are told emphatically that the best way is to house them in pairs regardless of the size of the enclosure (and now we also see recommendations that a 40 gallon tank is only sufficiently big enough for a pair). If we go back (to the not so distant past) to when the recommendations were to use a 5 gallon/frog rule of thumb for populating tanks meant that it wasn't uncommon to house four in a 20 gallon long with good success.....
> 
> It is true that it is easier for people to have success with pair since there is little need to understand the population dynamics of housing a group of them together... so as a recipe it is successful but it also has it's downsides...
> One of the reasons, when this discussion comes up, I often reference the historical perspective.
> 
> Ed


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## Ed

Simply telling people that it should/can be done with pairs does nothing but contribute to dogma. It can be done in groups, it was widely done in groups and now it is in vogue to do it in pairs.... It is fine to tell new people that they should start out with pairs but to leave out the information does nothing but contribute to dogma.... How many of those enclosure that had animals fighting were reevaluated on the basis of husbandry and how many simply went to the panacea of housing in pairs since it hides the husbandry issues? 

Let's squelch innovation and experimentation since the recipes for thier care are obviously the best way to care for the frogs... Just like 5 gallons/frog is dogma, and when the flaws were pointed out for that recipe, it became 10 gallons per frog and 20 gallons per frog totally ignoring that the flaws follow all of those dogmatic recommendations.... Husbandy of the dendrobates is becoming more and more formulaic.. as people want the "recipe" to become successful instead of attempting to learn about the animals and thus dogma becomes more and more firmly entrenched...since if you don't follow the dogma, you are abusing the frogs.. or will never have success... It doesn't matter if someone over plants the tank or feed the frogs to obesity... or any of a number of other issues (or all of them..) none of those oddly enough are considered a problem... just don't ever house them in anything but pairs.

Ed


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## eyeviper

Woodsman said:


> Hi Ed.
> 
> I hope you know me well enough to know that I'm not interested in dogma. There are MANY ways to keep and breed dart frogs successfully. I do see this question come up pretty frequently with reguards to D. tinctorius and I do feel the best advice to newer hobbyists is to play it safe with pairs (I also find that pairs are the best way to keep tincs if the keeper is interested in maximizing breeding).
> 
> I have heard too many stories here on Db of people asking why their tincs keep dying when they keep them in groups (and had a similar experience early on in keeping dart frogs back in 1998). So I'll stick with the "dogma", if it means that fewer frogs will become stressed and die unnecessarily.
> 
> Again, this is all by way of my own opinion.
> 
> Take care, Richard.


I feel you are missing the point with this thread. No one is refuting pairs seem to have a better track record. It has been said in almost every post. I started this with hopes of a discussion into the realm of GROUP breeding/care. I have prolific pairs and if you read my first post it says I purchased a trio in hopes to see some different behavior and see what can be done with group breeding. It is not meant for beginners in any way. you have a lot of experience with these frogs from what I hear? please enlighten us and share your experiences. It is not about your opinion that pairs are better. enough said, no more. It is about forwarding the hobby and thinking outside the box. I agree new froggers should keep pairs of tincs but for those a little beyond that, group breeding, enclosure specification etc could be a neat venture and may be very prolific if done right...


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## eyeviper

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I've always had best success, especially with breeding, by keeping them in pairs. I've had mixed results with 2.1 trios... but in each case, breeding results were sub-par compared to just pairs. One time, I had a trio and one male wrestled with the other male, it wasn't particularly problematic in the sense that he didn't chase him all over the tank, just out of his space, but unfortunately during one of their wrestles on male broke the other's arm and he never recovered. Another time, both males were fine together, but the males were much more interested it seemed in competing with one another instead of breeding. The male and female would be courting, and then the other male would come out and break it up, and it went back and forth between which was the "dominant" male without much egg production.
> I'm sure tincs can be kept in groups, especially in well designed tanks to maximize separate territories for individual frogs, but it can be tough to do this in small-medium tanks, and personally, it's not worth the hassle for me so I stick to pairs.
> Good luck,
> Bryan


what sort of enclosures have you had your groups in? its interesting, there seems to be equal territorialism between both sexes, males seem more occupied with simple space rather than whos in it as much, and females seem competitive on both space and mates. perhaps why people have had less issue with male heavy groups. 

has anyone noticed females getting worn out/ or over stressed to mate with male heavy enclosures?


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## frogfreak

eyeviper said:


> has anyone noticed females getting worn out/ or over stressed to mate with male heavy enclosures?


Not at all. As I stated earlier my production is almost identical with the Tincs that are kept in pairs. The females do not breed anymore or any less with a male heavy group. The females absolutely dominate over the males. 

I am currently keeping:

1.1 Azureus
1.1 Azureus group 2
1.1 Powders
1.1 Oyapok
4.1 Patricia
4.1 Bakhuis
2.1 Alanis
2.1 Citronella

I will report that all the males are healthy, show no signs of being stressed and in some cases have been together for 3 years. By far, I prefer the group dynamic over the frogs I keep in pairs. I have seen 2 Bakhuis males wresting twice and to be completely honest it was very interesting for me to see. Something you don't get the opportunity to witness in a 1.1 set up. With my Alanis, the female mates with the male with a darker orange marking, yet I have witnessed the male with lighter orange markings carrying the tads to water. Interesting behavior for sure. I do plan on setting up a female heavy group when I can get a larger tank going. 

I also have a friend that has some 2.2 groups and another friend that has a 2.5 group in a 90g. They have seen little to no aggression. The tanks have loads of site barriers and niches for the frogs. I see far more aggression in my 2.4 Leucomelas 65g tank despite the fact that it has loads of site barriers and they are considered a group frog. IMO if you keep them in pairs only, you are missing out on some very interesting natural behaviors. I would not recommend anything behold a pair until you have some experience under your belt and have the ability to spend quality time with your frogs. I spend a_ lot_ of time just observing their behavior.

Best


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## daryl34

Trios will work, just keep them in larger horizontal tanks, so the have room, they will prosper. small tanks and trios are where the issues usually arise. The animals need to get away from each other , so when an issue arises they can each move off.

D


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## eyeviper

frogfreak said:


> yet I have witnessed the male with lighter orange markings carrying the tads to water. Interesting behavior for sure. I do plan on setting up a female heavy group when I can get a larger tank going.
> 
> Best


That is pretty neat, I wonder what he is thinking lol. I agree with the group dynamics. I think there is something to be said for seeing behaviors come out you dont see after keeping pairs for so long. Would you post some pictures of the group vivs you have going? and do you think or have you noticed if well fed, and with correct visual barriers that the competition dynamics between the adults could lead to stronger offspring? With many animals the competition to breed is exceptionally important not just to get things going but there is often a considerable differences in offspring.


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## eyeviper

daryl34 said:


> Trios will work, just keep them in larger horizontal tanks, so the have room, they will prosper. small tanks and trios are where the issues usually arise. The animals need to get away from each other , so when an issue arises they can each move off.
> 
> D


I agree. Ed has had some great points on this topic. As we know there is really no "perfect" recipe for success but what type of visual barriers have people used? maybe we can see some vivs from successful group breeding vivs and start getting a sense of the type of set up utilized.


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## frogfreak

eyeviper said:


> That is pretty neat, I wonder what he is thinking lol. I agree with the group dynamics. I think there is something to be said for seeing behaviors come out you dont see after keeping pairs for so long. Would you post some pictures of the group vivs you have going? and do you think or have you noticed if well fed, and with correct visual barriers that the competition dynamics between the adults could lead to stronger offspring? With many animals the competition to breed is exceptionally important not just to get things going but there is often a considerable differences in offspring.


Here's a shot or the 2.1 Alanis viv. I like to use wood and foam and rocks as barriers. I have almost no terrestrial plants in my tanks. I feel most get too big and take away from the floor space. The arrows are how I see the frogs travel and the circles, if can call them that lol, are where I see them sitting in the open. They can get under and out both the front and rear of that piece of wood on the right. I built the tank so that they could get to the top easily. I also don't drop the flies in a pile. I dump them in my hand and blow them into the tank. This scatterers the flies from top to bottom, forcing them to hunt. I also think, by doing this, I'm less likely to see aggression due to the fact that they aren't together fighting over a pile of flies.



The red is a bit hard to see. Let me know if I need to do it again.


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## Woodsman

I've also learned to never get into an argument with you, Ed. You are the master!

Richard.



Ed said:


> Simply telling people that it should/can be done with pairs does nothing but contribute to dogma. It can be done in groups, it was widely done in groups and now it is in vogue to do it in pairs.... It is fine to tell new people that they should start out with pairs but to leave out the information does nothing but contribute to dogma.... How many of those enclosure that had animals fighting were reevaluated on the basis of husbandry and how many simply went to the panacea of housing in pairs since it hides the husbandry issues?
> 
> Let's squelch innovation and experimentation since the recipes for thier care are obviously the best way to care for the frogs... Just like 5 gallons/frog is dogma, and when the flaws were pointed out for that recipe, it became 10 gallons per frog and 20 gallons per frog totally ignoring that the flaws follow all of those dogmatic recommendations.... Husbandy of the dendrobates is becoming more and more formulaic.. as people want the "recipe" to become successful instead of attempting to learn about the animals and thus dogma becomes more and more firmly entrenched...since if you don't follow the dogma, you are abusing the frogs.. or will never have success... It doesn't matter if someone over plants the tank or feed the frogs to obesity... or any of a number of other issues (or all of them..) none of those oddly enough are considered a problem... just don't ever house them in anything but pairs.
> 
> Ed


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## eyeviper

Woodsman said:


> I've also learned to never get into an argument with you, Ed. You are the master!
> 
> Richard.


your making it an argument sir.


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## eyeviper

frogfreak said:


> Here's a shot or the 2.1 Alanis viv. I like to use wood and foam and rocks as barriers. I have almost no terrestrial plants in my tanks. I feel most get too big and take away from the floor space. The arrows are how I see the frogs travel and the circles, if can call them that lol, are where I see them sitting in the open. They can get under and out both the front and rear of that piece of wood on the right. I built the tank so that they could get to the top easily. I also don't drop the flies in a pile. I dump them in my hand and blow them into the tank. This scatterers the flies from top to bottom, forcing them to hunt. I also think, by doing this, I'm less likely to see aggression due to the fact that they aren't together fighting over a pile of flies.
> 
> 
> 
> The red is a bit hard to see. Let me know if I need to do it again.


this is good, i like it. I may set up a 75 I have laying around depending how this trio does for a larger group and have the floor totally leaf litter and use thin branches as upright to simulate sapling trees then plant creeping vines up higher for foliage ths would maximize floor space and brake the tank up. could be a neat set up.


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## Ed

One of the easiest ways to have some real aggression/territoriality in an enclosure is to add frogs after one or more frogs have become established in the enclosure. All of the frogs should go into the tank at the same time. Try to avoid transferring materials from the old tank to the new. It is pretty well established that dendrobatids can use olfaction as part of determining a territory (see for example http://justinyeager.org/papers/SmellOfSuccess.pdf as it also reviews a lot of the publications on it) and including odors from the previous tank may cause one animal to be more territorial. It is also often easier to manage territoriality when the frogs are all reared from froglets in the same enclosure. Animals can be removed if the sex ratios end up incorrect (but remember the point about adding frogs to an established animal or group). 

With respect to frogs in the tinctorious group, you can control egg deposition sites by where you place shelters like cocohuts and leaf litter. If you don't have any smooth surfaces (like sheltered leaves) you can prevent egg deposition from other areas. If you create drifts in isolated areas in the same areas as the cocohuts (or other options), then you can seperate out the males which will also help to seperate out the females. In between the male areas, you are going to want to set up sight barriers, which are going to hide the frogs from one another (and provide a space behind one can retreat away from another). The frogs are obviously going to be able to hear one another as well as detect each other by olfaction... This means that you will have to monitor the frogs while they are getting the territories worked out as you may have to redistribute resources or remove a frog or two. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## eyeviper

Ed said:


> If you create drifts in isolated areas in the same areas as the cocohuts (or other options), then you can seperate out the males which will also help to seperate out the females.
> 
> Ed


By this do you mean areas off less territorial advantage? Just cocohuts for egg deposition? I agree with avoiding adding adults to adult groups..I would not be brave enough to try that anytime soon. I think raising unrelated frogs together is safe and calmer method for all. 

anyone got any other pics of group set ups? I think stemcell has some tanks set up for site barrier specific stuff if i recall right, maybe he can chime in..


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## Ed

eyeviper said:


> By this do you mean areas off less territorial advantage? Just cocohuts for egg deposition? I agree with avoiding adding adults to adult groups..I would not be brave enough to try that anytime soon. I think raising unrelated frogs together is safe and calmer method for all.
> 
> anyone got any other pics of group set ups? I think stemcell has some tanks set up for site barrier specific stuff if i recall right, maybe he can chime in..


Thinking it in terms of less territorial advantages in the wrong way to consider it. You need to think of it in terms of resource allocation. The reason it works if you seperate it out, is because it becomes harder for a frog to defend resources that are seperated by distance with multiple competitors for it. This lets the frogs form regions in the tank (and as with wild populations there will be neutral regions that will remain contested (since it appears the frogs don't engage in "Dear Enemy" behaviors (at least for pumilio). 
In other territorial taxa (for example crocodilians) you get territorial issues until the population reaches a critical threshold where it becomes impossibe for an animal to hold a territory for any length of time as there are so many animals that any attempts at aggression end up being interupted by the multiple targets (and attempting to target ends up being interfered with by having to go through more than one animal). 
This method does work for display only enclosures particularly when no breeding sites are supplied. 

Keep in mind that if you use feeding stations (pieces of fruit) you will put some frogs at a feeding disadvantage if they have to cross into areas controlled by the other frogs. You need to either use multiple stations (Ideally in each controlled area) or broadcast feed them (as noted above). 
This is one of the reasons, husbandry has to be examined when excessive aggression is noted. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## eyeviper

Very cool, it brings a whole new level to viv design. no more lets stick a branch here branch there...gotta really think about it. this is random but iv seen you have sources to Auratus habitats, do you have any habitat shots of Tinc's? azureus more specifically but tincs in general will work.


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## Ed

eyeviper said:


> Very cool, it brings a whole new level to viv design. no more lets stick a branch here branch there...gotta really think about it. this is random but iv seen you have sources to Auratus habitats, do you have any habitat shots of Tinc's? azureus more specifically but tincs in general will work.


There are some good descriptions of the habitats in Lotter's et al Poison Frogs.. Or you can google Sipaliwini Savannah since many tinctorius are from that region. 

Ed


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## illinoisfrogs

This was a good read.....I was just wondering about these same questions recently. I had some azureus that are adults, from 2 different breeders, raised in 2 different tanks, and just recently set up a tank in my son's bedroom, and put all 4 of them in there. I think they are a 2.2 from the looks of things, but they seem to be doing really well, and it got me thinking about the "TINCS MUST BE KEPT IN PAIRS DUE TO EXTREME AGRESSION" that I am always reading about, and wondering how many of the people who preach this have actually tried out groups, pairs, male heavy groups, and female heavy groups to compare them all............and sadly, it appears that many are only regurgitating what they've been told, but not actually had real experience with tincs in groups. I've only done it with azureus, but I've kept them as a breeding pair, a trio, and now this group of 4.

I have no doubt that they can be aggressive, but as someone else pointed out, I've seen more aggression in my auratus and leuc groups than I have in groups of tincs. And yet the "standard dogma" is that auratus and leucs are "good group frogs" and tincs are not.


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## jknight

illinoisfrogs said:


> This was a good read.....I was just wondering about these same questions recently. I had some azureus that are adults, from 2 different breeders, raised in 2 different tanks, and just recently set up a tank in my son's bedroom, and put all 4 of them in there. I think they are a 2.2 from the looks of things, but they seem to be doing really well, and it got me thinking about the "TINCS MUST BE KEPT IN PAIRS DUE TO EXTREME AGRESSION" that I am always reading about, and wondering how many of the people who preach this have actually tried out groups, pairs, male heavy groups, and female heavy groups to compare them all............and sadly, it appears that many are only regurgitating what they've been told, but not actually had real experience with tincs in groups. I've only done it with azureus, but I've kept them as a breeding pair, a trio, and now this group of 4.
> 
> I have no doubt that they can be aggressive, but as someone else pointed out, I've seen more aggression in my auratus and leuc groups than I have in groups of tincs. And yet the "standard dogma" is that auratus and leucs are "good group frogs" and tincs are not.



Just because you don't see aggression doesn't mean it's not there. The fact that you have recently put them together in this viv, leads me to believe they have not established territories. When they do you might have another story to tell.


Also, simply throughing tincs together in the same viv. For a short period of time doesn't give you experience on the subject. So to question experienced breeders whether they have tried group breeding or not based on your one time results, seems odd. I can assure you that any experienced breeder has tried this method more then once.


----------



## illinoisfrogs

jknight said:


> Just because you don't see aggression doesn't mean it's not there. The fact that you have recently put them together in this viv, leads me to believe they have not established territories. When they do you might have another story to tell.
> 
> 
> Also, simply throughing tincs together in the same viv. For a short period of time doesn't give you experience on the subject. So to question experienced breeders whether they have tried group breeding or not based on your one time results, seems odd. I can assure you that any experienced breeder has tried this method more then once.


I've had frogs for 4 years, so I'm not a beginner. I'm also not a first time breeder. As far as tincs, I have only bred azureus and matechos, but I've had azureus in different combinations for 2 years. I have bred auratus and leucs for 2 years also. What I'm saying is I've seen more aggression in my auratus and leucs than my tincs.

I know there are plenty of people with more experience than me, I would just like to see results from someone who has tried it ALL the different ways, including adjusting husbandry results, etc, like Ed was trying to say. Even though people are quick to point out tincs are best kept in pairs, and other frogs are "good group" frogs, many longtime breeders keep tincs a good variety of ways, other than just pairs.

Since you have a lot of tincs, have you kept them several different ways? I'm very interested in REAL info from people who have tried multiple methods, with specific examples, not regurgitated dogma.


----------



## Ed

jknight said:


> Just because you don't see aggression doesn't mean it's not there. The fact that you have recently put them together in this viv, leads me to believe they have not established territories. When they do you might have another story to tell.


There are several issues with this statement, the first is that any territorial displays or combat necessarily bad. This is an incorrect assumption. If we are going to argue stress, then to be fair we have to evaluate all stressors on the frog. The second is that aggression is automatically 100% guaranteed... 



> Also, simply throughing tincs together in the same viv. For a short period of time doesn't give you experience on the subject. So to question experienced breeders whether they have tried group breeding or not based on your one time results, seems odd. I can assure you that any experienced breeder has tried this method more then once.


Well, how about the fact that you are disagreeing with experienced breeders for whom it has worked or still works? That is a flaw in your argument. 
As I have mentioned more than once on this forum was that it was very common to house tinctorious in multiple frog groups, which was common since it followed the old five gallons/frog rule which was very common until around 2004 (and I can give you the reference where that standard was discussed). 

Dogma on many levels has become firmly entrenched with a lot of frogs which is a problem in the long run. Housing tinctorius in pairs provides the best chance of sucess for a novice or a newer person but this has rapidly become codified as the only way it can work.... 
There are multiple flaws in the one pair per tank "standard", and one of those is denial of mate choice....... 

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## jknight

illinoisfrogs said:


> I've had frogs for 4 years, so I'm not a beginner. I'm also not a first time breeder. As far as tincs, I have only bred azureus and matechos, but I've had azureus in different combinations for 2 years. I have bred auratus and leucs for 2 years also. What I'm saying is I've seen more aggression in my auratus and leucs than my tincs.
> 
> I know there are plenty of people with more experience than me, I would just like to see results from someone who has tried it ALL the different ways, including adjusting husbandry results, etc, like Ed was trying to say. Even though people are quick to point out tincs are best kept in pairs, and other frogs are "good group" frogs, many longtime breeders keep tincs a good variety of ways, other than just pairs.
> 
> Since you have a lot of tincs, have you kept them several different ways? I'm very interested in REAL info from people who have tried multiple methods, with specific examples, not regurgitated dogma.



I don't wish to belittle your experience with breeding darts. To assume experienced breeders don't try other methods, is incorrect thinking. 


I have had success in the passed and present with breeding in trios and groups.
I have a trio of bahkuis breeding now and a group of FGDC also breeding both male heavy.


----------



## jknight

Ed said:


> There are several issues with this statement, the first is that any territorial displays or combat necessarily bad. This is an incorrect assumption. If we are going to argue stress, then to be fair we have to evaluate all stressors on the frog. The second is that aggression is automatically 100% guaranteed...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, how about the fact that you are disagreeing with experienced breeders for whom it has worked or still works? That is a flaw in your argument.
> As I have mentioned more than once on this forum was that it was very common to house tinctorious in multiple frog groups, which was common since it followed the old five gallons/frog rule which was very common until around 2004 (and I can give you the reference where that standard was discussed).
> 
> Dogma on many levels has become firmly entrenched with a lot of frogs which is a problem in the long run. Housing tinctorius in pairs provides the best chance of sucess for a novice or a newer person but this has rapidly become codified as the only way it can work....
> There are multiple flaws in the one pair per tank "standard", and one of those is denial of mate choice.......
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed




Ed, 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your argument. What i don't agree with is people chiming in on the subject without experience.

I agree aggression is not guaranteed, but to assume success is guaranteed will lead to needless deaths of tincs. 

Tincs are my favorite species. I have had success breeding in groups and trios.
On the other hand it can be stressful on the frogs if done wrong.


----------



## eyeviper

Its amazing the aggressive responses you get out of people regarding this subject.


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## frogfreak

eyeviper said:


> Its amazing the aggressive responses you get out of people regarding this subject.


Agreed. It is...


----------



## eyeviper

jknight said:


> Ed,
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I agree with your argument. What i don't agree with is people chiming in on the subject without experience.
> 
> I agree aggression is not guaranteed, but to assume success is guaranteed will lead to needless deaths of tincs.
> 
> Tincs are my favorite species. I have had success breeding in groups and trios.
> On the other hand it can be stressful on the frogs if done wrong.


I posted something long then realized its a mute point and not worth the bone heads that will chime in. Give us some more info on your success. Give us something worth using other than a status of successful breeding.


----------



## Ed

jknight said:


> I agree aggression is not guaranteed, but to assume success is guaranteed will lead to needless deaths of tincs.


Yor making a big assumption with the above statement.. ie; that competition between frogs is automatically going to lead to death without purpose. If we look at that statement we can see that it implies any deaths that can be avoided are needless.. yet people ignore all kinds of things that can needlessly lead to the death of the frogs, obesity, closing tanks up tightly which prevents evaporative cooling (resulting in thermal stress), hypovitaminosis, shot gun treatment methods, no fecal checks, lack of quarantine and I can go on... technicallly shipping can be added to that list since, shipping isn't required as a method to aquire frogs..... So why does housing the frogs in group rate a higher concern than any of the other causes of "needless" death? 

Dogma and recipes are real problems since people tend to blindly follow them (and use them as a reason to excuse what when critically examined, are poor husbandry techniques since they enable success... A classic example of this is the sealing of the enclosures to maximize humidity 24/7/365 which as we know increases the risk of death from heat and deprives them of an important physiological regulatory behavior. The first thing many people post is that a person should seal up thier tanks tightly with glass.......). 

I am always surprised that people argue about more than a pair being a "needless" death when so many other methods that result in the death of the frogs are passed over without a second glance..... The acceptance of those other "needless" deaths is a sign of dogma and too much adherence to recipes...


----------



## jknight

eyeviper said:


> I posted something long then realized its a mute point and not worth the bone heads that will chime in. Give us some more info on your success. Give us something worth using other than a status of successful breeding.



I feel Like we are being lost in translation here. My last posts might of sounded abrasive, but my intentions are good. 

In my opinion breeding in trios and groups is an interesting and rewarding experiment. The opinion that tincs should be only kept in pairs and that they should be only kept one way, I don’t agree with. 
Done correctly it is most certainly doable. If anyone has any specific questions about the trios and groups I have breed, feel free to ask.





Ed said:


> Yor making a big assumption with the above statement.. ie; that competition between frogs is automatically going to lead to death without purpose. If we look at that statement we can see that it implies any deaths that can be avoided are needless.. yet people ignore all kinds of things that can needlessly lead to the death of the frogs, obesity, closing tanks up tightly which prevents evaporative cooling (resulting in thermal stress), hypovitaminosis, shot gun treatment methods, no fecal checks, lack of quarantine and I can go on... technicallly shipping can be added to that list since, shipping isn't required as a method to aquire frogs..... So why does housing the frogs in group rate a higher concern than any of the other causes of "needless" death?
> 
> Dogma and recipes are real problems since people tend to blindly follow them (and use them as a reason to excuse what when critically examined, are poor husbandry techniques since they enable success... A classic example of this is the sealing of the enclosures to maximize humidity 24/7/365 which as we know increases the risk of death from heat and deprives them of an important physiological regulatory behavior. The first thing many people post is that a person should seal up thier tanks tightly with glass.......).
> 
> I am always surprised that people argue about more than a pair being a "needless" death when so many other methods that result in the death of the frogs are passed over without a second glance..... The acceptance of those other "needless" deaths is a sign of dogma and too much adherence to recipes...




I agree there are many " needles " deaths in the hobby, and I agree many have to do with the examples you listed. This thread is about housing in trios and groups so that is why I commented solely on this. Which I believe can cause a needles death. I did not say that competition between frogs will automatically lead to a death, nor do I think this. 

Do I think breeding in trios and groups will cause a death every time? 
No

Do I think all aggression will cause a death?
No

Do i think This method can cause a needless death?
yes

Do I think "beginners" should try this method?

Yes and no.
You should do your research and asked people that have tried theses methods.


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## eyeviper

Have you observed morphs that seem to do better in groups? People often say you must have a very large tank in order to succeed with this, What size tank do you use for your groups and what techniques did you utilize to curb competition and break up territories ? (ie methods for making or inhibiting territories). I would love to see a few set ups you used.


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## jknight

eyeviper said:


> Have you observed morphs that seem to do better in groups? People often say you must have a very large tank in order to succeed with this, What size tank do you use for your groups and what techniques did you utilize to curb competition and break up territories ? (ie methods for making or inhibiting territories). I would love to see a few set ups you used.



I have had more success with dwarf tinc morphs when it comes to breeding in trios and groups. ( Oyapocks, Bahkuis , Dwarf cobalts). This is just my experience; I have tried other larger tinc morphs with little or no success. Azureus and cits are a couple of larger tincs I have breed in trios.(clutches where few and far between)

Tank Size can be an issue but is obviously dependent on how many tincs and what kind you wish to keep together. I have had success using 10gs with trios if strategically planted. I currently use a 20 Long for my group of FGDC

4 coco huts are in the tank, very well planted and a lot of visual barriers. 

Also my trio of Bahkuis are in a 10g now. This might seem small but I have seen no ill effects. 

A couple ways I have tried to stop or curve aggression, Many coco huts, Well planted, Visual barriers, multiple feeding stations. I agree with Ed saying, Introducing all frogs at the same time is a good idea.

If aggression persists, I separate the dominate Male/female.
My trio and group now are all male heavy. For me, female on female aggression was more apparent then male on male.

It has to be said though, Individual frog personality plays a big role.
Hope this helps


----------



## illinoisfrogs

jknight said:


> I don't wish to belittle your experience with breeding darts. To assume experienced breeders don't try other methods, is incorrect thinking.
> 
> 
> I have had success in the passed and present with breeding in trios and groups.
> I have a trio of bahkuis breeding now and a group of FGDC also breeding both male heavy.


I'm sure many breeders try other methods also, and that's what I'm looking for........a description of what they have found that works, and what doesn't work........

My experience is limited to leucs, auratus, and a couple morphs of tincs, but in comparing those 3, I see no difference in aggression when they are bred in groups.......


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## illinoisfrogs

jknight said:


> Also my trio of Bahkuis are in a 10g now. This might seem small but I have seen no ill effects.


A trio in a 10 gallon? HOW DARE YOU!


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## jknight

illinoisfrogs said:


> A trio in a 10 gallon? HOW DARE YOU!




Yes, I don't recommend it for everyone! 
Feel free to ask any questions you might have. I will do my best to help.


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## eyeviper

Now that surprised me, The use of 10g's that is. I had a trio of Azureus I broke up in a 20 long due to female aggression. I had very few clutches. Now its just a pair its like clockwork. How many dwarf cobalts have you had together before? Most people note female aggression rather bypassing the males. What have you seen/ is worth looking out for regarding competition between males? Ed noted a few pages ago about competition for recourses. We often ignore this in our vivs. Have you noticed particular territories of the more dominant around a water feature or a "standout" spot in the viv? Iv always wondered if tadpole drop sites were guarded and competed for. Basically, if like most people you make one pool will it become a hot spot for competition?


----------



## Ed

eyeviper said:


> Most people note female aggression rather bypassing the males. What have you seen/ is worth looking out for regarding competition between males? Ed noted a few pages ago about competition for recourses. We often ignore this in our vivs. Have you noticed particular territories of the more dominant around a water feature or a "standout" spot in the viv? Iv always wondered if tadpole drop sites were guarded and competed for. Basically, if like most people you make one pool will it become a hot spot for competition?


Males tend to defend egg deposition sites as thier territories (some species of dendrobatids defend calling perches others do not). Females guard access to the males. It isn't surprising that people visually see female to female aggression as opposed to males since males compete vocally before it will escalate into physical confrontation (and typically can resolve it vocally...). Neither sex defends tadpole deposition sites directly (they may be indirectly defended if they are close to other defended resources). 

Ed


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## jknight

Ed said:


> Males tend to defend egg deposition sites as thier territories (some species of dendrobatids defend calling perches others do not). Females guard access to the males. It isn't surprising that people visually see female to female aggression as opposed to males since males compete vocally before it will escalate into physical confrontation (and typically can resolve it vocally...). Neither sex defends tadpole deposition sites directly (they may be indirectly defended if they are close to other defended resources).
> 
> Ed



Interesting, I have wondered in the passed why I would see more female aggression then male.


----------



## jknight

eyeviper said:


> Now that surprised me, The use of 10g's that is. I had a trio of Azureus I broke up in a 20 long due to female aggression. I had very few clutches. Now its just a pair its like clockwork. How many dwarf cobalts have you had together before? Most people note female aggression rather bypassing the males. What have you seen/ is worth looking out for regarding competition between males? Ed noted a few pages ago about competition for recourses. We often ignore this in our vivs. Have you noticed particular territories of the more dominant around a water feature or a "standout" spot in the viv? Iv always wondered if tadpole drop sites were guarded and competed for. Basically, if like most people you make one pool will it become a hot spot for competition?



There are 3 males and one female in the dwarf cobalt group. 

Most male aggression i have seen, accurse during courting. This is the scenario , most of the time.

One male will call, the female will court the calling male. A second male will call, the female will begin to court the second male. During this transition, a wrestling match would ensue. If wrestling persists I would take action. 

Often another scenario that would happen. One male will call, the female starts to court the male. When the second male begins to call, the first male " gives up" and does not call again. 

Another scenario, one male will call and the other male will seem completely uninterested in breeding. Off doing its own thing. In this scenario Ive seen the male not interested in breeding , being courted by the female while the other male calls. Still not interested. 
I have wondered myself if a male would guard a specific coco hut, but this is not the case. The lead the female in different huts occasionally.

Its really interesting to watch their behavior.


----------



## jknight

By the way,

I purchased both my trio of bahkuis and my group of dwarf cobalts from Richard. (woodsman)

I have breed a trio of oyas in the past.
I am planning on putting a group of oyas together soon. 2.2

should be interesting


----------



## Ed

jknight said:


> One male will call, the female will court the calling male. A second male will call, the female will begin to court the second male. During this transition, a wrestling match would ensue. If wrestling persists I would take action.


This is an example of female mate choice based on fitness of the male doing the calling and the males being relatively equal as can be detected (by them) via calling. What do you mean if wrestling persists you take action? I would leave them alone for awhile since that behavior can result in establishment of a hierarchy. 



jknight said:


> Often another scenario that would happen. One male will call, the female starts to court the male. When the second male begins to call, the first male " gives up" and does not call again.


Male fitness determination via call, male that "gives up" can tell it isn't as fit as second male..... 



jknight said:


> Another scenario, one male will call and the other male will seem completely uninterested in breeding. Off doing its own thing. In this scenario Ive seen the male not interested in breeding , being courted by the female while the other male calls. Still not interested.


In the wild, males do not tend to hold territories for long periods of time. Calling and defending eggs are energetically expensive to the adults and in wild populations, they tend to cycle out of the breeding sites over time. It is only in enclosures where large amounts of food is fed to the frogs without them having to spend much in the way of effort to forage do we see deviations from that behavior....... 




jknight said:


> I have wondered myself if a male would guard a specific coco hut, but this is not the case. The lead the female in different huts occasionally.


Those huts are part of the territory so it shouldn't be surprising. Territorial animals often have a lot of overlap with thier neighbors... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

jknight said:


> Interesting, I have wondered in the passed why I would see more female aggression then male.


I don't want to single you out but this is an opportunity I don't want to pass up... 

This is an example of why cookbook husbandry and care is an issue. People don't bother to learn about the behaviors of the frogs to understand why the frogs do some of the things they do since the recipe gives them success without any need for understanding. In addition, those people that breed the frogs successfully using the recipe(s) are then considered experienced by others in the hobby so it is a self perpetuating cycle..... This is also why attempting to use the benchmark that they've kept or bred a species actually doesn't tell you anything about thier actual skill level..... 

Ed


----------



## frogfreak

jknight said:


> Its really interesting to watch their behavior.


I think that is the whole point of this thread. IMO it's much more interesting to watch group dynamics as opposed to just pairs. I posted about my Alanis behaviour earlier. Turns out, this breeding season, that it's the male with the lighter yellow that is breeding with the female. I did see a short scuffle between the two males and he quickly took over the breeding role. He hasn't bred with her in two years to my knowledge. I guess this year it's his turn. Interesting...

I have another group or 3.2 La Fumee that just started up. No serious aggression, no abnormal behavior so far and all have good body weights.

Best


----------



## jknight

Ed said:


> What do you mean if wrestling persists you take action? I would leave them alone for awhile since that behavior can result in establishment of a hierarchy.
> 
> 
> 
> Ed




To answer your question. If wrestling does not stop for days at a time i will separate one of them. Not worth having a frog die to establish a hierarchy. ( no i dont believe every wrestling match that lasts a few days will 100% guarantee a death, but why risk it)


----------



## jknight

Ed said:


> I don't want to single you out but this is an opportunity I don't want to pass up...
> 
> This is an example of why cookbook husbandry and care is an issue. People don't bother to learn about the behaviors of the frogs to understand why the frogs do some of the things they do since the recipe gives them success without any need for understanding. In addition, those people that breed the frogs successfully using the recipe(s) are then considered experienced by others in the hobby so it is a self perpetuating cycle..... This is also why attempting to use the benchmark that they've kept or bred a species actually doesn't tell you anything about thier actual skill level.....
> 
> Ed




Why would you assume im using a "recipe " just because i didn't understand a specific behavior of a frog? The fact is that i knew males and females act differently in the presents of the same sex. Not knowing the exact reason should not determine skill level.


Skill level for me, is judged on many criteria. Your point included.. but not solely.


----------



## jknight

frogfreak said:


> I think that is the whole point of this thread. IMO it's much more interesting to watch group dynamics as opposed to just pairs. I posted about my Alanis behaviour earlier. Turns out, this breeding season, that it's the male with the lighter yellow that is breeding with the female. I did see a short scuffle between the two males and he quickly took over the breeding role. He hasn't bred with her in two years to my knowledge. I guess this year it's his turn. Interesting...
> 
> I have another group or 3.2 La Fumee that just started up. No serious aggression, no abnormal behavior so far and all have good body weights.
> 
> Best



Hmm.. that is interesting that the hierarchy has changed with your alanis. Are the males the same age? Size? 

I had a chance to get a pair of la fumee awhile back, a regret not snapping them up when i had the chance. 

Good luck with the group, and keep us posted


----------



## frogfreak

jknight said:


> Hmm.. that is interesting that the hierarchy has changed with your alanis. Are the males the same age? Size?


Yes they are and they grew up together. The only thing different is that we tank raised a tad and we left it in the tank at morph out. We wanted to see if the adults bullied it at all. They didn't and ironically it grew quite quickly. It's now approx 7 months old and we can't help but wonder if that changed the hierarchy of the whole tank. Interesting though. 



jknight said:


> I had a chance to get a pair of la fumee awhile back, a regret not snapping them up when i had the chance.
> 
> Good luck with the group, and keep us posted


Thanks, they're great frogs and will update.


----------



## Ed

jknight said:


> Why would you assume im using a "recipe " just because i didn't understand a specific behavior of a frog? The fact is that i knew males and females act differently in the presents of the same sex. Not knowing the exact reason should not determine skill level.
> 
> 
> Skill level for me, is judged on many criteria. Your point included.. but not solely.


If you weren't following an established method, then why didn't you understand the difference in behaviors? 

Ed


----------



## Ed

jknight said:


> To answer your question. If wrestling does not stop for days at a time i will separate one of them. Not worth having a frog die to establish a hierarchy. ( no i dont believe every wrestling match that lasts a few days will 100% guarantee a death, but why risk it)


 
How many cases have you personally seen in which the cause of death was due to wrestling behaviors? How many of them have been actually documented with a necropsy? 

How many cases of death due to territorial wresteling are you aware of? How many have been documented? 

This is often discussed and thrown out as a cause of death ... Healthy animals that are in similar shape can wrestle for more than a day or two (but again they aren't wrestling all night long....)..... 

It is kind of like saying it died because it's heart stopped. 

I'm flagging a lot of this since it is being stated as if it is established fact when it really at best reaches the level of a folktale. 


Ed


----------



## illinoisfrogs

Ed said:


> How many cases have you personally seen in which the cause of death was due to wrestling behaviors? How many of them have been actually documented with a necropsy?
> 
> How many cases of death due to territorial wresteling are you aware of? How many have been documented?
> 
> This is often discussed and thrown out as a cause of death ... Healthy animals that are in similar shape can wrestle for more than a day or two (but again they aren't wrestling all night long....).....
> 
> It is kind of like saying it died because it's heart stopped.
> 
> I'm flagging a lot of this since it is being stated as if it is established fact when it really at best reaches the level of a folktale.
> 
> 
> Ed


Another thing we often see bantered about is if there is water, females can drown other females. Are there documented cases of a female actually drowning another frog?


----------



## jknight

Ed said:


> If you weren't following an established method, then why didn't you understand the difference in behaviors?
> 
> Ed




I knew the different behaviors because of experimentation on my part. I didn’t understand why they had different behaviors.


----------



## jknight

Ed said:


> How many cases have you personally seen in which the cause of death was due to wrestling behaviors? How many of them have been actually documented with a necropsy?
> 
> How many cases of death due to territorial wresteling are you aware of? How many have been documented?
> 
> This is often discussed and thrown out as a cause of death ... Healthy animals that are in similar shape can wrestle for more than a day or two (but again they aren't wrestling all night long....).....
> 
> It is kind of like saying it died because it's heart stopped.
> 
> I'm flagging a lot of this since it is being stated as if it is established fact when it really at best reaches the level of a folktale.
> 
> 
> Ed



I have never experienced a death due to wrestling males. I have not waited to see if a death would happen. The longest I have waited to separate males was 7 days. I saw no ill effects on the males, but I didn’t want ot put their heath at risk.

I have experienced males that stop eating, during these matches. I have wondered if not broken up, if they would starve. (given that both males were healthy, it would take longer than 7 days)

I Know of no documented cases of death during wrestling. but,..
I know hobbyists that have had deaths during wrestling, but I can say with some certainty that a necropsy was not performed. 

Are you arguing that 100% healthy males, will never die during wrestling? No matter the duration?
Do you think there has to be another factor in their death?




illinoisfrogs said:


> Another thing we often see bantered about is if there is water, females can drown other females. Are there documented cases of a female actually drowning another frog?


I have heard this as well,..
I have never seen a documented case of this, also it has never happened to me.


----------



## Ed

jknight said:


> I have never experienced a death due to wrestling males. I have not waited to see if a death would happen. The longest I have waited to separate males was 7 days. I saw no ill effects on the males, but I didn’t want ot put their heath at risk.
> 
> I have experienced males that stop eating, during these matches. I have wondered if not broken up, if they would starve. (given that both males were healthy, it would take longer than 7 days)
> 
> I Know of no documented cases of death during wrestling. but,..
> I know hobbyists that have had deaths during wrestling, but I can say with some certainty that a necropsy was not performed.
> 
> Are you arguing that 100% healthy males, will never die during wrestling? No matter the duration?
> Do you think there has to be another factor in their death?


Why would you assume that 7 days was putting thier health at risk?

I'm not arguing that it a death will never happen what I am punching holes into is the idea that the wrestling puts the frogs at the level of risk that is commonly percieved in the hobby. It is theoretical possible that a frog can die during wrestling, since it could have a heart attack, or a stroke.... but in those cases, the death isn't due to the wrestling but to underlying causes that led to the conditions (obesity for example...). 

Given that the vast majority of frogs in the hobby are obese to grossly obese (and if you can tell a frog is fat by looking it it, it is in the grossly obese category since fat is stored in fat pads in the abdomen and the size cannot be determined visually unless they are displacing organs (grossly obese) or modifying the shape of the frogs (again grossly obese). 

As for stop feeding, off the cuff, I want to say so what? In general, the frogs in the hobby range from obese to grossly obese (see above) and focusing on wrestling instead of feeding is a sign of a frog with abundent fat reserves. On what basis are you assuming they would starve? Why do you think a frog would continue to wrestle until it starves to death? 

The level of supposed proof is the problem. *People have mistaken coincidence for causality and hyped it up until people are paranoid about thier frogs, including using methodology that is at best dogma and using that dogma as part of how they define a good keeper*... 

My issue is that you on no solid proof (which is why you and I are having this discussion) have accepted the idea of "needless" death(s) as fact and not only used it as a method to evaluate a person for whom you had no real information.. (go back to your statement on Illinoisfrogs here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/78329-breeding-tinc-trios-5.html#post751393 ) but are perpetuating it by defending it..... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed

jknight said:


> I knew the different behaviors because of experimentation on my part. I didn’t understand why they had different behaviors.


Why not? If you saw it, why didn't you understand it? 

Ed


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## jknight

Ed said:


> Why would you assume that 7 days was putting thier health at risk?
> 
> I'm not arguing that it a death will never happen what I am punching holes into is the idea that the wrestling puts the frogs at the level of risk that is commonly percieved in the hobby. It is theoretical possible that a frog can die during wrestling, since it could have a heart attack, or a stroke.... but in those cases, the death isn't due to the wrestling but to underlying causes that led to the conditions (obesity for example...).
> 
> Given that the vast majority of frogs in the hobby are obese to grossly obese (and if you can tell a frog is fat by looking it it, it is in the grossly obese category since fat is stored in fat pads in the abdomen and the size cannot be determined visually unless they are displacing organs (grossly obese) or modifying the shape of the frogs (again grossly obese).
> 
> As for stop feeding, off the cuff, I want to say so what? In general, the frogs in the hobby range from obese to grossly obese (see above) and focusing on wrestling instead of feeding is a sign of a frog with abundent fat reserves. On what basis are you assuming they would starve? Why do you think a frog would continue to wrestle until it starves to death?
> 
> The level of supposed proof is the problem. *People have mistaken coincidence for causality and hyped it up until people are paranoid about thier frogs, including using methodology that is at best dogma and using that dogma as part of how they define a good keeper*...
> 
> My issue is that you on no solid proof (which is why you and I are having this discussion) have accepted the idea of "needless" death(s) as fact and not only used it as a method to evaluate a person for whom you had no real information.. (go back to your statement on Illinoisfrogs here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/78329-breeding-tinc-trios-5.html#post751393 ) but are perpetuating it by defending it.....
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed



Why would you assume 7 days of seemingly not stop wrestling would not put their heath at risk?
You are assuming all my frogs are obese.
As for the males that stopped eating, I was not assuming the frogs will completely stop eating and starve. I am questioning if they would. 

You are criticizing me for my comments to a person i had no real information, I can argue you are doing the same.


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## eyeviper

jknight said:


> You are criticizing me for my comments to a person i had no real information, I can argue you are doing the same.


Eh, you can say he is but he is asking you questions and you are answering, therefore from what I have read you are being questioned upon the information you are giving. The obese comments are not necessarily a hit on your frogs but on the general hobby as a whole. And I am sure it is true that your frogs, mine, and I bet even Eds have more than enough fat stores for a few days of fasting..


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## PatEmig09

I think pairs are better than trios. I've had Cobalt trios before and I wouldn't recommend it.


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## eyeviper

Ed said:


> Why not? If you saw it, why didn't you understand it?
> 
> Ed


 I think you can observe the behavior of an animal, know the situations that cause it but not fully understand why. Saying if you saw it you must understand is not a fair comment as there are many behaviors scientists have observed and do not know the reason too. A person with less scientific training can only speculate until experience or training tells reveals a better answer.


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## eyeviper

PatEmig09 said:


> I think pairs are better than trios. I've had Cobalt trios before and I wouldn't recommend it.


What did you experience/ observe that brings this conclusion?


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## frogfreak

PatEmig09 said:


> I think pairs are better than trios. I've had Cobalt trios before and I wouldn't recommend it.


Easier maybe, but why "better"


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## jknight

eyeviper said:


> Eh, you can say he is but he is asking you questions and you are answering, therefore from what I have read you are being questioned upon the information you are giving.




true.. but I commented on the information that was given.
I may have been a little short with this person, but my aggression was brought about because of their last comment, which was directed at a specific person in my opinion.


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## jknight

frogfreak said:


> Easier maybe, but why "better"



Agreed, much easier. Better for some, not for all.


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## eyeviper

jknight said:


> true.. but I commented on the information that was given.
> I may have been a little short with this person, but my aggression was brought about because of their last comment, which was directed at a specific person in my opinion.


Ill agree with this. your convo with Ed has been pretty interesting actually and though not specifically about the main topic has a lot of bearing on the hobby. I think if no one gets personal and its just a discussion I think quite a few people could benefit. Keep it up...Your in the first round with Ed


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## jknight

eyeviper said:


> Ill agree with this. your convo with Ed has been pretty interesting actually and though not specifically about the main topic has a lot of bearing on the hobby. I think if no one gets personal and its just a discussion I think quite a few people could benefit. Keep it up...Your in the first round with Ed




I appreciate it, I hope this discussion can help people in the hobby. 

I will try and keep up with Ed


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## frogfreak

Something just dawned on me while driving today. It's been stated that you get the best production over and over from pairs, although that is not the case with mine. Who cares?!? It seems as if I'm always trying to slow them down. It's not healthy for them to be breeding constantly. They breed like rabbits under the right conditions! So, if groups will slow production then I'm all for it. This is our hobby after all and they're supposed to be our pets...

Best


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## Ed

jknight said:


> Agreed, much easier. Better for some, not for all.


This is actually a major point.. One of the things I was doing was challenging your thinking on it. You tend to make flat statements as if they are proven fact, when either there is little to no information/proof and/or contradictory information. 


Ed


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## Ed

jknight said:


> Why would you assume 7 days of seemingly not stop wrestling would not put their heath at risk?


Why are you assuming that it will? In the wild, combat for turf continues until one or the other submits or flees. Why would you expect this to be different in captivity? It isn't like you wouldn't remove a frog that was obviously hiding or stressed instead you arbitrarily decided on a victor which impacts mate choice and genetics. 



jknight said:


> You are assuming all my frogs are obese.


As I've noted elsewhere and has been documented in the literature, pretty much all of the dendrobatids in captivity are obese. *The only way to be sure that they aren't obese is to cut them open and check the fat pads* but we can demonstrate this as well through indirect information.. for example, D. tinctorious are typically only reproductively active for a few weeks during the breeding season..not pumping out clutch after clutch every week or two for months....... Since available fat for the yolk is one of the limiting factors in egg production, we can readily demonstrate that the frogs are being overfed.... (and it is even easier to demonstrate for pumilio... but I digress). As an alternative method we can calculate out the number of flies required to support basice metabolic needs.. (and we have one example on the board...). I only feed my pumilio once a week as part of a diet/carotenoid trial and for some reason, they still have the same body shape as a frog fed more frequently and produce froglets regularly.. (the only difference is that I don't see fertile clutches while the females are egg feeding which is what they do in the wild)..... So I have a strong suspicion that my frogs despite some best effort are still obese.... I'll know better if one kicks the bucket and I do a gross necropsy on it (but I have to find it while it is still fresh). 



jknight said:


> As for the males that stopped eating, I was not assuming the frogs will completely stop eating and starve. I am questioning if they would.


No, they won't. You can get a frog that becomes so submissive it hides in which impacts feeding and in that case, you can exercise judgement on it's removal. 


As for the information on the person, I pointed it out since you were using it as a criteria to judge them... if you look back to my posts to you, I'm questioning your reasoning behind your statements, not quite the same thing. 

Some comments

Ed


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## jknight

Ed said:


> I only feed my pumilio once a week as part of a diet/carotenoid trial and for some reason, they still have the same body shape as a frog fed more frequently and produce froglets regularly.. (the only difference is that I don't see fertile clutches while the females are egg feeding which is what they do in the wild)..... So I have a strong suspicion that my frogs despite some best effort are still obese.... I'll know better if one kicks the bucket and I do a gross necropsy on it (but I have to find it while it is still fresh).
> 
> Ed



Ed , 

I dont want to completely hijack this thread, but this is very interesting. Do you have a set number of flies you feed to each of your pumilio? If so how do you calculate that number? 

As of now a dissection is the only way to know if a frog is obese. Do you know of any efforts to come up with other methods?

Not sure if this is an original idea or if it would even work,... 
If we came up with a chart, similar to the BMI index that we use.
A measurement from snout to "butt", calculated with the number of grams the frog weighs. Given this method would not be perfect, but it could give us a better idea if our frogs are healthy or over weight.

Just a thought,


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## Ed

jknight said:


> Ed ,
> 
> I dont want to completely hijack this thread, but this is very interesting. Do you have a set number of flies you feed to each of your pumilio? If so how do you calculate that number?


There is hard science that allows you to calculate out an estimate of flies to sustain the frogs (see for example the discussion here (or if you want to see all of them search Ohaus) http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/9031-how-many-flies-mealtime.html#post73877). This is an estimate since the enclosures are fairly complex and the conditions often are managed to keep the frogs at a higher activity level (and often allow flies to escape which skews the attempt). 

Instead of monitoring the exact number in, I keep one or two bait stations in each tank and monitor the number of flies on the bait station and only feed once the bait station is empty of flies. Right now this is running between every seven to ten days. I had started the trials by preventing egg feeding by the females, but they were successful in hiding clutches on me so I had to stock the enclosures with microfauna (at least two types of isopods and one type of springtail). One of the groups was a trio of very washed out red bastimentos, and I'm monitoring them to see how long it takes for them to color back up even though they are rearing froglets (modification of trial). 



jknight said:


> As of now a dissection is the only way to know if a frog is obese. Do you know of any efforts to come up with other methods?


Grossly obese animals can be seen by deformation of body shape from fat deposition but simple obesity and normal body can be impossible to determine visually since there isn't sufficient displacement to show up visually which is why the only way to be sure is to open them up. There are some other potential methods but you would have to control certain aspects, for example, you could use Archimedes Principle on displacement of water to determine density of a range of frogs ranging from frogs in the wild and in captivty to work out the differences.... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## illinoisfrogs

illinoisfrogs said:


> Another thing we often see bantered about is if there is water, females can drown other females. Are there documented cases of a female actually drowning another frog?


Anyone? I am not saying that this isn't possible, but I chalk these "drowning" examples that are so frequently mentioned as mostly urban legend. The percentage of people with water deep enough to drown frogs in has got to be much greater than the number of frogs drowned. Has anyone personally had a frog drown another frog?


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## eyeviper

illinoisfrogs said:


> Anyone? I am not saying that this isn't possible, but I chalk these "drowning" examples that are so frequently mentioned as mostly urban legend. The percentage of people with water deep enough to drown frogs in has got to be much greater than the number of frogs drowned. Has anyone personally had a frog drown another frog?


I roll my eyes rarely but this is one case. I have personally seen and picked up O.pumilio, no joke 3-6ft from one of the biggest rivers in Costa Rica (The Pacuare) and also in some other areas. In multiple places along the river they were mere ft from raging class 4 rapids...after my experience there I have given the animals some more respect. As a hobby we tend to baby the animals and treat them as if they are incapable of survival without us. Granted out of their tank this is mostly true but drowning in a pond? sure if they are sick, a healthy animal?..NO. unless some crazy accident happens. I dont know about the whole forced drowning incident but I do not really believe it and A new step in the hobby would be to remove the cloud that we are "Gods" and the animals in our care cant do a thing.


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## Ed

There are some instances where a frog was found drowned in something (for example there is a report on frognet.org where a pumilio female looked to have gotten stuck in a test tube and drowned), but the vast majority have always been I've always read/been told....... 


Ed


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## illinoisfrogs

eyeviper said:


> I roll my eyes rarely but this is one case. I have personally seen and picked up O.pumilio, no joke 3-6ft from one of the biggest rivers in Costa Rica (The Pacuare) and also in some other areas. In multiple places along the river they were mere ft from raging class 4 rapids...after my experience there I have given the animals some more respect. As a hobby we tend to baby the animals and treat them as if they are incapable of survival without us. Granted out of their tank this is mostly true but drowning in a pond? sure if they are sick, a healthy animal?..NO. unless some crazy accident happens. I dont know about the whole forced drowning incident but I do not really believe it and A new step in the hobby would be to remove the cloud that we are "Gods" and the animals in our care cant do a thing.


Totally agree. I understand that "ponds" and "rivers" or "waterfalls" in the tanks are often not utilized by the frogs, and therefore unnecessary, but I get tired of reading "the frogs will drown". Maybe we should start an "urban legend" thread?


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## Ed

illinoisfrogs said:


> Totally agree. I understand that "ponds" and "rivers" or "waterfalls" in the tanks are often not utilized by the frogs, and therefore unnecessary, but I get tired of reading "the frogs will drown". Maybe we should start an "urban legend" thread?


I like to call it voodoo husbandry.... 

Ed


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## TyGuy

I kept mine in a reverse trio...2.1 and everything seemed to be just fine for them. I'm going to be doing the same thing with my new tincs - reverse trio all the way.


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## frogfreak

Sorry about the cell phone pics. I caught this yesterday.

Again!? I have a headache. (Males up front)



I'm outta hear. Time to check on the lil ones. (Female leaves)



A froglet that was tank raised. This guy came out of the water within the last week.



And another tad that will be out shortly.


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## illinoisfrogs

frogfreak said:


> Sorry about the cell phone pics. I caught this yesterday.
> 
> Again!? I have a headache. (Males up front)
> 
> 
> 
> I'm outta hear. Time to check on the lil ones. (Female leaves)
> 
> 
> 
> A froglet that was tank raised. This guy came out of the water within the last week.
> 
> 
> 
> And another tad that will be out shortly.


Cool pics. How deep is the pond, and how big of an area?


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