# Sexing Patricia



## Pcroal1128 (May 13, 2011)

Alright i know i did this not too long ago but i now have better pictures that show the frog much better. Let me know what you think. I also have been playing calls from youtube and the frog does not call back and earlier it looked like it was scratching its back with its legs for just a little bit. I dont know if that means anything but please let me know what you think. Thanks


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

I am pretty confident that is a male. body shape+toe pads indicate male.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Agreed. Looks male to me


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

My males of Patricias have very large toe pads. Yours sits at a low stance, has sm to med toe pads, and the big belly with cleavage. In my opinion and experience I say female.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

To me this looks like an immature animal and I'd hold off on sexing it - Bill is right with the toe pads, I've worked with female patricia with toepads like these and would expect a male to have toes nearly twice that size (but the body shape isn't saying one or the other to me, which is why I am going with still too young). How old is this frog? Could still be a young male who for various reasons hasn't hit that hormone stage yet, or a young female. Patricias can get pretty big, and can show some of their traits later.

Not calling back doesn't mean much, tincs aren't particularly auditory (unlike some other frogs I know *coughepipedobatescough*) and really need to have another animal right there to kick into gear. Even then a young male may not react (been there, done that, think of it as a "please don't beat me" response). Also unless the call was recorded on very good equipment and replayed through calibrated stereo speakers that call may not sound anything like a tinc to them. 

"earlier it looked like it was scratching its back with its legs for just a little bit"

Nope, doesn't sound important, sounds like it felt something on it's back and tried to get it off. Now if it was following another frog around and pawing THEIR back with a forelimb it'd mean something!


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## Pcroal1128 (May 13, 2011)

I really appreciate the replies. It is at about 11 months now so i was hoping maybe someone could see something that was a clear sign. I think that it still may be immature and does seem to be a little smaller than other patricias that i have seen at this age. Maybe i will try back in a couple of months. Thanks again for taking the time.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

If it's a little on the smaller size then it could easily just not be mature yet. For some of the larger tincs it can be 18 months to 2 years before they are totally mature anyways, so 11 months for a slower grower is still young enough to not make the sex clear. Sexual maturity is more a factor of size than age, which is part of why there can be so much variability in when people can sex out frogs.

Having these pics to compare with future pics will be helpful too


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## wohlerswi (Nov 20, 2011)

My male patricia's toes are generally about 30% (sometimes more) larger than an equal size male of a different locale. In my experience also they may take longer to mature in some cases, but I have found that even in very young male patricia's the toe pads are usually still very pronounced. It would make it a lot easier if you had a known sex (or even just another one in general) to compare it to. This evening when I get home I will post pics of a pair of patricia for comparison. It is hard for me to tell without having the frog in front of me, but I am leaning towards an immature female. We all know though that nothing is of certainty till they call or lay eggs.
Will Wohlers


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yeah, Patricias can be lumped into the "giant" category (of dwarf, medium, and giant tinc sizes), which can mean not even getting full sized until 18-24 months of age (the longer age being a female getting full sized). Their toepads are usually clear as day when mature as adults unlike some of the other giant forms like Reginas, and I've worked with some teenager Pats that had the nice massive toepads pretty early (and the early large toepads also make some people think they mature faster than they actually do since the toes can show up on a young male a good while before a female of the same age would be ready). This is why the toepad size of a tinc can be seriously misleading - what works for one population may not work for another. And even in that case you'll STILL get animals with toepads that say one thing but actually aren't... like my very proven male azureus I used to have that everyone though was female because he had small toes. I didn't pass those comments onto him, it would have given him a complex!

That being said every once and a while you get a curve ball of a frog that just won't show diagnostic sexual dimorphism until really, really late (or like in the case of my azureus - at all) - but in my experience that only happened when raised in groups (so I assume it's group dynamics - less dominant male may not develop big toepads at the same size as it's tankmates did in a male heavy tank, etc). In the case of my azureus, he was raised in a group of 4 which included two VERY large girls and a very dominant male. Since this frog is alone I'd be surprised if that was the case.


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## wohlerswi (Nov 20, 2011)

Sorry I didnt get this up last night as planned, but I am now so...Anyway this is a pair of my younger patricias. I want to say only 8-9 months (would have to go back and look at records to be sure), and you can see already how beastly the males toe pads already are. If I can get an adult pair to get in the pic together I will post another shot for you. I think this will help you though. Let me know.
Will Wohlers

ps the male is on the top left the female on the bottom right,


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Very pretty pair!

I realized looking at that pic that there is one more thing about Pats that throw people off - their pale toes. In other Tincs the toes may only get paler in the males as the pads get larger, but a female's will stay the leg color. In the case of Pats both of them will have pale toepads.


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## wohlerswi (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks! Yeah that is a good point. Pretty much every Patricia I own has toes that get paler as they get more mature (some of them completely white!). I have noticed though with most males the paleness will usually (usually, not always though lol) extend down onto the finger a little when most females paleness is usually just confined to the toepads. Like we have said before though, nothing is 100% with these guys. 
Will


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Patricias just like to be the slightly odd part of the bunch don't they? Diluted colors, big toes on big frogs, slightly oddball patterns, even gotta overdo it on the pale toes! LOL


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

looks female to me, but as stated above, I'd wait til around 14 months to be sure.

... I've been thinking about adding some Patricias to the collection. Ive got some store credit to one of the sponsors here, and they have some available. hmmmmmmmmmm


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## Pcroal1128 (May 13, 2011)

Hey guys. Just wanted to follow up and let you know that I heard him calling all night last night. I will be looking for a girlfriend for him now. Thanks again for all the input


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