# Frog Room Remodel



## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Got some of my new tanks from Jason. Thought I'd record the progress on here.








I think the rack sits too low to the ground so I'm going to get some 4x4, bore a hole in one end and sit the rack feet in it. I'm thinking 6 to 12 inches off the ground.








I've got two other tanks here and 8 more on their way once Jason moves up. That should fill the wall. After that on the far wall will be a 4'x4'x30" tank set back in the wall. It will stick 18 inches out into the room and be framed by a stainless steel rack to allow me to put tanks above and below.









Let me know what you think. I'll try to keep this updated.


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

Jeff, are you going to put some kind of foam padding under the protean tanks ( can't tell, maybe there is on the bottom 2)? I would highly recommend it, I think you may be risking the bottoms cracking when you get substrate in there. 

I would definitely want them higher off the floor too, could you just go buy taller poles rather than do the 4 x 4's?

Christina


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

You could also just get the industrial rollers like you have on the rack next to it, that would give you another 4 inches of height.


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

I've put particle board underneath, I was thinking of using insulation foam as well. 
The wheels for the racks are already bent from too much weight I didn't want to use them again. 4x4 is going to be the cheapest/easiest way to get them up higher. Painted black they should look pretty good.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Looking good Jeff! If you do decide that you want to use wheels I have a bunch laying around.


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

Jeff R said:


> I've put particle board underneath, I was thinking of using insulation foam as well.
> The wheels for the racks are already bent from too much weight I didn't want to use them again. 4x4 is going to be the cheapest/easiest way to get them up higher. Painted black they should look pretty good.


You probably already made note of this when you saw our setups, but we were able to find thin, dense foam padding at the local men's fabric store that is barely noticeable under the tanks due to it's dark color. It's more expensive but the aesthetics are worth it.

I forgot to say though, looks great.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

christina hanson said:


> You probably already made note of this when you saw our setups, but we were able to find thin, dense foam padding at the local men's fabric store that is barely noticeable under the tanks due to it's dark color. It's more expensive but the aesthetics are worth it.
> 
> I forgot to say though, looks great.


Do you know what it is called?


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## bobzarry (Mar 2, 2005)

Unless I am misunderstanding your intent. You might be better off going to a salvage yard and getting some steel pipe to make extensions with for your racks. I would be leery of using 2x4's to support that weight especially after boring holes in it. 2x4's can easily crack and I would hate to see a rack come tumbling down because of it.


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

Tony said:


> Do you know what it is called?


Tony, I think it's called closed cell foam. I believe we got the 1/2" charcoal.

Neoprene Closed Cell Foam and Specialty Foam : Water Resistant Fabric : Seattlefabrics.com


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

christina hanson said:


> Tony, I think it's called closed cell foam. I believe we got the 1/2" charcoal.
> 
> Neoprene Closed Cell Foam and Specialty Foam : Water Resistant Fabric : Seattlefabrics.com


Thanks, I will look for that. All my tanks are on bare shelves at the moment, but there is no weight in them yet because they are being used for quarantine or froglet grow-out.


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

Tony said:


> Thanks, I will look for that. All my tanks are on bare shelves at the moment, but there is no weight in them yet because they are being used for quarantine or froglet grow-out.


Before it slips my mind, while this has worked great for cushioning the tanks, it's a bear to slide the tanks in and out especially when they JUST fit the racks, the foam against glass makes for kind of a suction cup effect. We found that by covering the foam with sheets of silicone impregnated parchment paper the tanks slid easily, then you can either pull of the sheets or leave them in case you ever want to move the tank.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Awesome, thanks for the tip. How are those eggs looking?


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

Tony said:


> Awesome, thanks for the tip. How are those eggs looking?


Looking WAY too good .


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Sweet. I love seeing how fast they develop, darts are like watching grass grow by comparison.


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## keith campbell (Aug 11, 2007)

Looks good! I really like that 48" tank, a rack of those would look nice. I agree with the consensus of not using wood 4x4's. The thought of splitting wood would be devastating. Unfortunately, I have no other ideas other than the wheels mentioned. I am kinda in the same situation myself and will keep an eye this thread. Have fun with the builds, I am looking forward to round two myself.

Keith


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

keith campbell said:


> Looks good! I really like that 48" tank, a rack of those would look nice. I agree with the consensus of not using wood 4x4's. The thought of splitting wood would be devastating. Unfortunately, I have no other ideas other than the wheels mentioned. I am kinda in the same situation myself and will keep an eye this thread. Have fun with the builds, I am looking forward to round two myself.
> 
> Keith


I really would suggest swapping out those poles with 7 foot long ones. It's the simplest solution and risk free. It looks cool too to have the tanks almost reach the ceiling too.


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## keith campbell (Aug 11, 2007)

christina hanson said:


> I really would suggest swapping out those poles with 7 foot long ones. It's the simplest solution and risk free. It looks cool too to have the tanks almost reach the ceiling too.


I did not know these were available. Absolutely the way to go!
QUANTUM STORAGE CHROME WIRE SHELVING
I am sure if you looked around there are better deals too. I have enough extra shelves, I can justify an extra set of poles!


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

The Container Store in Portland and Jerry's in Eugene both carry extra poles, but I'm not sure if they have the 7' tall ones so you may want to call ahead.


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

You guys are a bunch of nay sayers!  Back to the drawing board. 
I wasn't able to track down close cell foam yesterday.
I got a 4x4 but now that you all have crapped all over that idea I'm heading down to Jerry's tomorrow to look for longer poles.


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Ok, I ordered extensions for my poles but decided they were too short at 6 inches. I'm returning those and getting 14 inch plus the screw in style pole connector. The 14 inch extensions will go on top of the exsiting poles and shelves will be rearranged to got to the ceiling. This will also give me more room between the top of the tank and the next shelf. 

I also found closed cell foam at the Foam Man in Corvallis. It's black polyethylene at 1/4 inch. 

At some point this week I pick up the majority of $400 worth of Sun Blaze T5's and egg crate.

Pics to follow.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Jeff R said:


> now that you all have crapped all over that idea I'm heading down to Jerry's tomorrow to look for longer poles.



LMAO ... too funny!


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## SnorkelWasp (Feb 19, 2009)

looking good jeff...its mike (used to work at animal house)...I want to come check it out sometime. I have lots of questions and am setting up some tanks soon


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Let's do it an a week or two. The room is in shambles as I finish up the second rack.


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## SnorkelWasp (Feb 19, 2009)

sounds good...not to worried about a mess though...more about constuction and stuff...I fully understand...give me a ring when you are ready...I am also looking for frogs...just azureus and/or luecs...talk to you later


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Some updates. 
Went with the whole "clay thing". The 50lb bag cost me $12 dollars so was way cheaper than fern or bark paneling (that would have been less time consuming though). I'm very happy with it. Moss and algae is growing in fast. Still have two tanks to finish and the plants need to grow in a bit. Just got my misting nozzles and will plug those in soon, Thanks E.
Here are the results of a lot of my time and a disgruntled wife. She refers to my addiction as the "WOW Guild". I don't see any similarities. It's not like I sit on the computer showing all my frog friends pictures of my frogs. Crazy woman.... no, she's really patient with me.














































I'll post more pics when my computer stops acting like a two year old.


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

More... 
Got some growing in to do. I've laced the clay mix with Java moss so we'll see what that does. Think everything should really take off with regular mistings.





































They're not in any particular order but the tanks that have a bare patch in the front where no leaves are will get a layer of milled Java or Christmas moss for a "front lawn". Any bare branches will also be seeded with moss once the misting nozzles are in.


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## Topete (Sep 27, 2009)

Very nice


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## dicemanorama (Nov 17, 2010)

*drooooooool*


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Thought it's about time to update.

Retics









Retics









San Cristobal









Colon


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Escudo









Guaramo









BH imitator









Casti









Super rare blue frog









B. truncs


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Deadly looking tanks! Nice man


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

nice growth!!


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

green legged bicolor









Y. galacs


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

what lighting are you using over your tanks?


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## *Self_DeFenCe* (Jun 12, 2010)

I really like your tanks but mostly the way you dispose your plants. You have a good sense of heights and the outcome is great. Some people work with plants they don't know and place them wrong. Can't wait to be done with school and order 1000$ of plants


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## erlese (Jun 11, 2008)

***** sigh*****


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Julio, they're 48" Sun Blaze T5's.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

I assume HO? with individual reflectors? what K scale?


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

WOW, Jeff... amazing tanks! Love your plant selection and the moss growth.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Very very impressive. Aesthetically pleasing without losing form and function.


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Julio, they are HO w/same brand reflectors, 2 bulbs per shelf. They're really nice to work with. I zip tie them to the above shelf and daisy chain fronts and rears together so I can stagger the on/off times. 

Self Defense, thanks for the compliment. I get a lot of my inspiration from a friend up north, so I don't want to take all the credit. I tried to take my time and plan them out before planting.


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## SamsonsFrogs (Mar 4, 2009)

What do you use for air circulation?

Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using Tapatalk


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## Melmo (May 2, 2011)

Oh wow, these are amazing! In the last tank, what's the huge fern and moss you have growing?


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## eos (Dec 6, 2008)

Wow man..... Those are phenomenal! I can't pick a favorite... they're all beautiful.


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

SamsonsFrogs said:


> What do you use for air circulation?


The tanks have vents on top. Circulation is handled by two fans circulating air in the room.



Melmo said:


> Oh wow, these are amazing! In the last tank, what's the huge fern and moss you have growing?


The fern is a hitchiker and I have no idea what it is. The moss is all Java.


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

any updates? I love the moss growth you have in these tanks!


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Some stuff has grown in but no big differences. I've put about 8 more tanks since the last pics and I'm setting them up a little differently. I'll take some pics when I get a chance.
Jeff


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

Jeff, these are stunning. I can't wait to see the rest of them.

I'm looking forward to you coming up and seeing all of our new setups too.

Christina


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## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

Jeff, than we'r waiting for 8 more shots 

What are the dimentions of vivs in post #26 http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/528977-post26.html i missed them, sorry...


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

RNKot, those tanks are 22.5x17x20. The bigger one is 45x17x20. 

I just set up a 33x22x20 for some Ameerga the other day, I'll get a pic of it soon. 
Not to shamelessly plug the new bizz but you can see some of the new tanks at CVB's facebook page. 

After getting these set up and the frogs moved in I will definately say that 22.5's are not big enough to raise pumilio froglets. I have plans for four 33x17x20's and two 33x17x24 that will be for pums. Then at some point I'm going to do a standard bakers rack with 24 inch deep tanks.


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## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

Jeff, just researching tank sizes for Oophaga. By the shots they looked like really small ones (for mee). I didn't understand the measures only by sight. Now i got the point.


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## chris31 (Aug 6, 2010)

JeffR your vivs are amazing!!!! What type of moss do you have growing on the back walls of your vivs?


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

chris31 said:


> JeffR your vivs are amazing!!!! What type of moss do you have growing on the back walls of your vivs?


Most of it is Java moss, along with the random mosses that pop up in clay BGs.


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

Awesome stuff man!! 

The t5 bulbs you're running... how long are you running them for a day and approx how far above the tanks? 

The growth in some of those, especially the Neo's, is awesome! Great job!


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## Molch (Jul 15, 2011)

these are lovely tanks, real works of art. Wish I could move into one mysel .

May I ask some stupid newbie questions:

- what did you use to mold the background? Some kind of foam? And did you paint it or glue any material on it before planting?

- what kind of humidity does one need to make java moss grow like that? Is it near 100% all the time?

I'm gonna earmark this thread and keep ogling at it while I set up my tank...


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## CREEPlNG_DEATH (Nov 28, 2009)

How often do you mist and for how long? I have a MistKing setup but I dont use for fear of killing my ferns which I have read the don't like water on the leaves and then over watering and killing the other plants. My other plants are broms, creeping fig, pepperomia, cryptanthas and some other vining plants im not sure of.

Thanks Matt.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Molch said:


> - what did you use to mold the background? Some kind of foam? And did you paint it or glue any material on it before planting?


The backgrounds are bentonite clay, and I'm sure Jeff will be happy to talk about how much he hates it.


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

chris31 said:


> JeffR your vivs are amazing!!!! What type of moss do you have growing on the back walls of your vivs?


Tony's right it's mostly java moss. I got a bucket full from the LFS and tried a couple different ways of seeding it, one method with a blender. Don't bother, throw it all over the tank and it will eventully grow. 



Feelin Froggy said:


> Awesome stuff man!!
> 
> The t5 bulbs you're running... how long are you running them for a day and approx how far above the tanks?
> 
> The growth in some of those, especially the Neo's, is awesome! Great job!


Currently I'm only running half of my t5's on that wall of tanks. It was getting too hot. I'm finding that the frogs are out way more and the plants haven't really suffered. They run for about 12 hours a day. 



Molch said:


> these are lovely tanks, real works of art. Wish I could move into one mysel .
> 
> May I ask some stupid newbie questions:
> 
> ...


Yep bentonite clay, it looks awesome but it has some serious downfalls (pun). If it gets too saturated it sloughs off the glass. I find myself managing humidity and misting a lot more to keep this from happening.
For Java moss I would say relatively high humidity or exactly what most people keep their frogs in. Just throw onto the surface you want it to grow on and wet it regularly until its established.



CREEPlNG_DEATH said:


> How often do you mist and for how long? I have a MistKing setup but I dont use for fear of killing my ferns which I have read the don't like water on the leaves and then over watering and killing the other plants. My other plants are broms, creeping fig, pepperomia, cryptanthas and some other vining plants im not sure of.
> 
> Thanks Matt.


I'm currently misting 3 times a day for 1 minute. I was doing 8 times a day but ended up having major calamity with my clay backgrounds. I also have too many nozzles and too much plumbing so air gets in the hoses and if you only run it for 15 seconds it takes that amount of time to get the air out. ZipDrips don't work with my setup and I've heard they don't work well anyway. My plan is to get another pump and run two systems to either side of the room.
Sorry about the tangent. Matt, I wouldn't worry about your ferns, (unless I'm missing somthing). Mine are all under this system and do fine.


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## Bonobo (Jun 7, 2009)

WOW! Those are great! It's hard to choose a favorite.. but I'm really liking the Cristobal and Escudo tanks!

I'm in the process of setting up three 18x18x24's (ZooMed) for some Bastimentos. I'll be using pumilio's calcium based clay substrate.. but you're kinda scaring me away from the clay background! It's a pain to maintain it huh? hmm..

One quick question, I see you're using false bottoms with eggcrates.. do you have holes drilled in the tank to drain the old water? Or are you siphoning the water? I tried looking at the pictures of the bare tanks, but couldn't tell.

THANKS


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Those tanks were all retrofitted with a silicone tub running through the egg crate down into the water reservoir. I use a smaller silicone tube to siphon out the water. It's a bit of a process because I sterilize the tube between tanks and it takes a while but it works for me. All the new tanks going up I installed them before substrate went in. We now have a small enough glass bit so I'm thinking of drilling the top rear of the tank and permanently installing aquarium air hose that I'll be able to attach a quick connect fitting to a longer hose to siphon out the water. That way I don't have to sit in front of the tank and make sure frogs don't escape.

The clay recipes may work fine. I just used the bentonite. I've heard that if you use redart or infield conditioner it repels more water. I'm over it and am just using zoomed cork backgrounds. Those get spendy when you do multiple tanks at a time. 




Bonobo said:


> WOW! Those are great! It's hard to choose a favorite.. but I'm really liking the Cristobal and Escudo tanks!
> 
> I'm in the process of setting up three 18x18x24's (ZooMed) for some Bastimentos. I'll be using pumilio's calcium based clay substrate.. but you're kinda scaring me away from the clay background! It's a pain to maintain it huh? hmm..
> 
> ...


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

Great info Jeff. 

Just my two cents on clay backgrounds. I've tried them as well and had two things happen... One over misting screwed them up, and under watering made them crack and fall off as well... I'm a big fan a GS! Easy and fun to play with IMO. Going to try working with the black pond kind next time so I won't have to see yellow foam on the sides. 

Anyway, awesome stuff. Can't wait to see those others finished wink wink! You've made me feel like I need to do a lot more homework on lighting... Why not led's? J/c


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

JP
Ugh, talk to Chuck about LED's, he's a reef guy and would really like to replace his metal halides with LED's. They're still too spendy. 
On the racks pictured I used the t5's mentioned. All my new stuff I'm just using t8's in shop lights by Lights of America. I'm leaning towards cheaper with less light because of two reasons. Those t5's are spendy and I seem to be spending all my money of driftwood and leaves, wink wink. Second, I'm starting to lean towards the Cult of Less Lite is Better. I'm running half my t5's and I think my frogs are thanking me for it. That and my power bill.

I agree 100% with your thoughts on clay. I hate GS foam though, too much labor. Some froggers do some really amazing stuff with it though.


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

I've seen some of the stuff guys are doing with GS... I don't have the patience for all that carving. I just sticking stuff into it... Like fake rocks I make, driftwood wink wink Hahahaha... 

Anyway, good tips on the lighting. I've always just used regular old single bulb reptisun lights but only leave them on for an hour or so... My room as plenty of afternoon natural light too though. I haven't had too many problems except with keeping some broms alive.

Your tanks look great tho. Can't wait to see what the new ones look like!!


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Wonderful jeff,i should have a ton of Q's for ya but its late,and i am shattered ,we seriously like your setups,not many we like as much as these which is why i'm typing insted of sleeping,superbly well done sir,lots of inspiration these,very greatful for your time in posting
thankyou
Stu


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Stu,
Thanks man, I appreciate that. Unfortunately a lot of my new tanks aren't being built with so much care of aesthetics but more functionality. I should be able to get a bunch of moss to cover everything though so we'll see. Thanks again to everyone who complemented. More pictures to come...
Jeff


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Jeff R said:


> Stu,
> Thanks man, I appreciate that. Unfortunately a lot of my new tanks aren't being built with so much care of aesthetics but more functionality. I should be able to get a bunch of moss to cover everything though so we'll see. Thanks again to everyone who complemented. More pictures to come...
> Jeff


your welcome Jeff they are stonking tanks,i know all about the time it takes i am horendously slow about these things,but i'm just starting mate so don't have to worry about the frogs yet they'll come as we can find them.So tell me Jeff why is this happening,apologies if i.ve missed it,you already have the frogs for these vivs? How long have you been doing this?
Ha moss or a creeping ficus hides all viv builders sins. I'll lay odds they'll still be aesthetically pleasing though
,ha once again I'm late thats because i have been playing polystyrene rocks all night
keep them comming .......those pics mate,lovin this one
thankyou
regards
Stu
PS oh Jeff just a thought when you say funtionality,as you finish a viv could you pop abit about your thought process with regards to said functionality under neath,'t would be great for us novices...taskmaster ain't I


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

stu&shaz said:


> your welcome Jeff they are stonking tanks,i know all about the time it takes i am horendously slow about these things,but i'm just starting mate so don't have to worry about the frogs yet they'll come as we can find them.So tell me Jeff why is this happening,apologies if i.ve missed it,you already have the frogs for these vivs? How long have you been doing this?
> Ha moss or a creeping ficus hides all viv builders sins. I'll lay odds they'll still be aesthetically pleasing though
> ,ha once again I'm late thats because i have been playing polystyrene rocks all night
> keep them comming .......those pics mate,lovin this one
> ...


I've already got some of the frogs that will go in the tanks. I've been working with darts since I was in high school maybe 15 years now. I only started getting serious about it say ten years ago, tincs and leucs then. In the last 6 years I've been working with thumbs and obligates.
Functionality: When I designed the first set of tanks I really put a lot of thought into what I wanted the tank to look like, mossy hill, shadowy/overgrown, all of them I wanted to really utilize moss. But I also took into consideration the frogs needs and my goals. I don't want to have a bunch of tadpole cups to deal with so a lot of the Dendrobates have water pools in the tank design so that they could rear their own. This has only been utilized by some yellow galacts and even then I think there is some cannibalism going on. I wouldn't mind that with some of the other species but I do want to produce some offspring from them. I may start pulling tads...
For obligates and thumbs, lots of bromeliads and vertical space. My wife seems to have better knack for designing tanks that will bring the frogs out. Lots of security so that they feel comfortable coming out. 
The new tanks I designed to promote breeding and security. Big pieces of driftwood to break up the frogs field of view enabling me to group the frogs in trios and still prevent competition. Stu, I think your right though, once the tanks are grown in I should be happy with the out come. They are still a lot simpler than the first set of tanks, lots of pothos, leaf litter and broms. Once they start to settle in I'll add specimen plants as I see fit. 
For now I've got 12 tanks in process and more in the works. Soon I'm going to move forward with a 45x48x24 inch (roughly 1143x1219x610mm) tank set in the back wall of the frog room. I'll photo document the whole thing from building the tank itself, transport, installation, landscape design and down the road introduction of the frogs. Still not 100% about what I'll put in it. Maybe a Peruvian tank with Sisa bassler, Sisa altamozonica and some thumbs from the same region. Maybe something entirely different.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

wonderful answer Jeff, and thought provoking too,fascinated to see what you do with the big tank. Ha, your words about the in tank breeding struck a chord,we have been fighting for a way to achieve this in an auratus tank just underway,i've been walking around our local woods,for ever, staring at tree buttresses,but have reluctantly come away from the idea only on the grounds of wanting floor space for leaflittler really,i could not work out how make the pool big enough to avoid said canabalism and have the substrate area i wanted for the frogs, (sneakily we also quite like playing with tadpols....SHHHHH),i was quite desparate to create that tree butress though
Really greatful for the reply mate,its going to be riviting to see how this goes along,we are verymuch feeling our way with this,at presant so watching someone redesign with all your aquired wisdom is a rare opurtunity.It will be of imense use not only to us but quite a few other folk I am quite sure!!!!
cheers Jeff
regards
Stu


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

Any updated pics Jeff??


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