# TREATING FISH WITH ICH IN VIV!!



## Guest (Feb 14, 2006)

I just noticed a tiger barb has ich in my viv. Can I treat him with the ich tretment, or not. It contains copper so I was worried about the effects it could have on my dart's when I add them to my setup. I am still waiting for them to arrive.
Should I take out the barb and treat it in quarintine, or can I treat the water in the viv?


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2006)

Take the sick fish out of the viv and treat it seperately in a goldfish bowl. Change out the water in the viv, if you can. Fish usually don't get sick with Ich unless the water quality is poor and they are stressed out, so I would recommend testing the water and making the appropriate adjustments. Don't treat the tank with copper, that won't be good for anything in there, including plants and aquatic insect life. Good luck!


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

To cool of water for the fish can often be a reason for ich as well, which causes stress, etc. So, yes, do take the fish out of the viv before treating it, very good advice. Try something like guppies, or some other cooler water fish maybe. I think tetra's generally do alright in vivs as well. Good luck,

ed parker


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2006)

Well your going to have to do something to kill the parasite in your viv. 
It is possible for herps to contract Ich. 
I would recommend quick cure, however I would recommend you thoroughly flush the tank and run carbon through it once your done treating. 

Copper at theraputic levels will not harm plants! Copper is commonly used in the horticultural industry.

Matt


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Some plants used in terrarium tanks are actually very sensitive to copper, but they are usually epiphytes. For example, you can't use copper wires to mount bromeliads as it will harm or even kill it.

Taking the fish out and treating it, as mentioned before, will not get rid of the problem completely. You need to treat the tank, not just the sick fish. You should also re-evaluate the fish you put in there, I wouldn't have recomended a tiger barb for that tank, even if the conditions are right! 

What are the conditions of your water? Temps? Water chemical levels? Check out the fish to put in there based on the consistant levels you find in the water. Adding fish to a frog tank is just like setting up a fish tank, all the same rules apply!

Cloud minnows, guppies, mosquito fish, and non-aggressive bettas (species like wine red bettas, or individual splendens that aren't overly aggressive - this varies by fish) are the ones I'd recomend the most. They all can take the conditions in a frog tank very well, and also clean up fruit flies from the water. 

If you want tadpoles deposited in tank, don't have fish in the ponds.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you remove all of the fish and wait for about 45 days the parasite should no longer be present in the enclosure. 

Pretty much any fish purchased from the pet store should be considered to carry ick and should be quarantined for at least 30 days and prophylactically treated before placing in the enclosure. 

Ed


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

Ed's advice is pretty good. Quarantine is the best defense against any pathogen. Check out the following site for Ich life cycle info:
http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/disease/freshwater/ich.html

Leaving the tank devoid of fishes for 28 days should do the trick for the tank. Depending on the fishes, I'd treat the whole lot in an *established aquarium*, not a fish bowl, for the suggested duration. My favorite Ich meds are Maracide (made by Mardel) and Epsom salt (3-5 ppt for 21 days). Your palnts will not like either treatment, but if they stay in your viv for 28 days with no fish, it should be safe, provided the water temp is 70F or higher.

If you have further fish questions, I'd be happy to help either on DB or via e-mail.  
Good luck!


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## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

I personally am not a fan of any ich meds, when good old table salt will do just fine. Bump the water temps up a bit (mid 80's) to speed up the ich life cycle. Ich can only be killed in the free swimming tomite stage (invisible to you). Add one teaspoon of salt per actual gallon of water. I've cut the dose back to one tablespoon per 5 gallons, and had equally good results. Pre-disolve the salt into water, and then add it to the tank. I usually do it in two half doses spread over some time to avoid changing water parameters too quicly. Continue treatment for 5 days after the last visible ich parasite on the fish.

Because warmer water holds less oxygen, you may want to add an airstone or powerhead to move the water around a bit more, increasing surface gas exchange.

If you quarantine properly, you should only ever have to treat ich during the process. Fortunately, it is very easily treated in most fish, particularly fish with scales (like your barb). Scale-less fish like loaches tend to be more sensitive in my experience, though I have treated them this way as well without effect (in fact, the meds will be harsher on them as well).

I did however cut corners once on quarantine in a 75 gallon dutch aquarium, full of plants. I treated with heat/salt and did not have any adverse effects on the plants.

I would also recommend a daily water change of about 25%, preferably with a good gravel vacuum. You will need to re-dose the salt for the 25% water added.

As previously mentioned, we should also look at the root cause. If this is a new fish, it probably came from the pet store infected. If it is not new, there is something stressing your fish... like temperature, a nitrogen imbalance (ammonia or nitrite in detectable levels, or excessive nitrate), extreme pH or hardness, etc.

hth,
Josh


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> Some plants used in terrarium tanks are actually very sensitive to copper, but they are usually epiphytes. For example, you can't use copper wires to mount bromeliads as it will harm or even kill it.


Tell that to the hundreds of Broms Ive applied various brands and concentraions of copper formulations to. I am aware copper wire will burn broms. As a matter of Intrest I produce primarily orchids most of all of what we grow are epiphytes none of which have ever shown any sensitivity to copper.

Matt


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

I have found Epsom salt to be much less problematic than sodium chloride. This is especially true for South American fishes. It probably has something to do with the good ole sodium-potassium pump and not throwing off the balance. Sodium chloride will work. But one word of caution: *be sure the salt is kosher and does not contain iodine*. Excess iodine will kill FW fish pretty quick;y!

Good luck!


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## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

Urban myth... table salt with iodyne has such low concentrations that it is insignificant. Heck, lots of sw folks intentionally dose it to help their invertabrates. I have treated with NaCl containing iodyne several times with no ill effects.

I believe the basic idea here is to throw of the osmotic balance and kill the ich parasite. I'm sure lots of "salts" will do it. I make my own pH/GH modification for african cichlids using epsom salt and baking soda, and have had an ich outbreak in such water. Granted, the epsom salt is not near the concentration of 1 tsp per gallon.


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

I am not going to argue the iodine thing too hard as I don't have a paper to back it up. But why chance it? If you insist on using NaCl, Kosher salt is available and works and there is no risk of iodine toxicity (even if it is an urban myth).

As for the epsom salt, I can tell you from experience that 3-5 ppt MgSO4 (epsom salt) will kill ich. But you have to remember that Epsom salt is MgSO4 heptahydrate which means it is only half MgSO4 by weight. A refractometer or hydrometer that is readable in the low range will tell you when you've hit the therapeutic level, whether you're talking NaCl or Epsom salt. Even NaCl at too low a concentration is useless against ich.

I am just trying to help people avoid problems with certain species with NaCl that could easily be avoided with Epsom salts. I have seen numerous problems with NaCl in Amazonian fishes in my 8 years public aquarium experience. On the other hand, I know several public institutions that routinely run 3-5 ppt MgSO4 constantly in their Amazon tanks as a prophylaxis with no ill effects to their collections.


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## Biznatch (Aug 30, 2005)

I had to treat my 72 gallon for ich that came with some rams from a shady fish store. I added 2 tsp of salt per gallon (just regular salt) over the course of like 3 days. I had a gold nugget pleco, tiger pleco, and clown loaches. That was like a year ago and they are still doing just fine. Now I have no idea what the salt water would do with frogs in the tank so you'll have to ask somone else about that. Salt is supposed to be the best/least stressfull way to treat ich thouh so that's what i would recomend you use.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The item that people have has issues with salt over is not the iodine but there is a dessicant added to table salt that keeps it from caking that is not typically present in kosher or sea salt. This dessicant has been implicated in problems with the fish, which is why kosher or aquarium salt is often recommended as opposed to table salt. 

The addition of the salt as I understand it has several effects, one of which is the change in osmotic potential which causes stress on the parasite. 


The salinity is not an issue for the frogs but it will change your ability to grow plants in any substrate that becomes contaminated by it. I would suggest simply pulling the fish and waiting until the parasite has died off. 

Ed


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

To be clear, I agree with Ed in pulling the fish. To avoid future plant problems, my recommended treatments would be best outside of your viv. In the meantime, the fishless viv will be ich-free in under 30 days!
Good luck!
Rich


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I don't have many posts on this board as of today, but I've been in the fish hobby for 10yrs as well as the "herp" hobby. I'm gonna go with Ed's advice as well. Keep it simple and just remove the fish and let the viv water be fish free for 30 days. Just make sure the water is warm (~80ish if you can) so the life cycle of the parasite will complete and it will die off. You might even want to change all the water in the viv and replace it with fresh water just to help.

If you plan on putting more fishes in the viv, I'd stay away from the t barbs. White Cloud Mountain Minnows (actually a type of Danio) are EXCELLENT choices for this type of setup as someone mentioned earlier. They are extremely hardy, don't mind cool water and will eat up drown fruit flies for you. I wouldn't put fancy guppies in my viv, they are brakish water fish and tend to get sick when salt isn't readily available in their water (from experience). Betta splendens wouldn't be a bad choice either.

From my understanding, salt + frog skin = BAD.

Hope this helps and good luck with your situation.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Salt is not necessarily a problem for the frog skin otherwise we would not be able to soak the frogs in amphibian ringer's solution (both iso and hypertonic solutions) or in pedialyte. But you are correct, there are salinities that are sufficient to cause problems but you are not going to achieve them in this situation (anthing that is as concentrated as sea water or more concentrated). 

I suggested 45 days without fish due to the cooler temperatures we keep the frogs. 

Ed


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2006)

*Thanks for all the help!*

Well I removed the 2 fish mostly affected, Turned the temp of the water to 80 degree's and added salt slowly over the past days. Everything is doing fine, and actually now that the water is warmer they seam much happier and active. I really appreciate all the help from everyone, especially with nobody flaming anyone else on this topic!! I like to see different idea's without someone thinking his or her idea is the ONLY one!


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