# Self Sustaining Terrariums, In Depth



## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Some people consider it the holy grail of frogging. There has been much interest, both here and on frognet about self sustaining vivs. I hope this thread will serve as a focal point for an in depth discussion of the possibilities for such a mini-ecosystem. WARNING! This is very long!

In the strictest definition, the self sustaining system would be in the same vain as Biosphere 2. Only energy is allowed to enter and leave the system. While such a system is theoretically awesome, it is impossible in practicality. First of all, I suspect no one could actually build a gas tight system (and I spend my working day fighting gas gradients). More fundamentally, if a $200,000,000 project was unable to produce enough O2, there is no way a small enclosure is capable of producing a balanced CO2/O2 cycle. The tank would become hypoxic (not enough oxygen) and hypercapnic (to much carbon dioxide) very quickly (and every night).

So, allowing that there will be gas exchange from the system, is it possible to maintain a tank without adding any organic material? Probably not. This would require an incredibly productive ecosystem, with the plants providing enough material for microfauna to eat, and thus producing enough microfauna to feed the frogs. Brent Brock has termed this an allochthonous vivarium, and he has written an excellent post on frognet about why this is so impossible (or most correctly, really, really hard), which can be found here. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/frognet/message/50651
Essentially, every rung your move up in the food chain requires 10x more organic matter. This point is possible, but then you must have the correct diversity of microfauna to funnel the plant matter into the frogs, and break down the plants enough to feed the frogs, but not enough to exterminate the frogs. Such a system would probably suffer some severe crashes, extincting some important species (including the frogs).

The two examples that really stand out to me as accomplishments are both "compostiums". Matthew Mirabello has an interesting thread on frognet about a tank he set up with plenty of microfauna, and only occasionally adds kitchen scraps to it, which can be found here. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/frognet/message/50119 He had success by letting the microfauna build up for over a month and then adding 6 newly morphed auratus and leaving them alone for a while. The frogs apparently grew really fast.

In my opinion, the coolest compostium was built by Ben Eichen, and the thread can be found here. http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5237
Apparently I'm not the only one awe inpired by this, as the thread has remained active for 3 years, and spawned a few frognet threads. 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/frognet/message/48401
What Ben did, was to split his tank in half with a sheet of tree fern. Half of the tank was a beautiful display of life, the other half was a beautiful display of death, AKA a compost bin. He would add to the compost half, and the microfauna were capable of freely moving between sides. This could also be considered a refugia or refugium. The microfauna that moved to the frogs' side of the tank were eaten, but the refugia assured that they would not be extincted, and provided a constant food supply for the microfauna. 

Some people may not want to display a compost bin, especially if it is a display piece in the house, so there has also been discussion of a remote refugia, which would be hidden away, connected to the display setup by a series of tubes. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/frognet/message/48592
I personally think such a setup would not be as effective as Ben's compostium and might have trouble feeding enough food to the frogs. There are perhaps complex ways to overcome this (ie coaxing the microfauna to the frog tank by making the remote refugia temporarily unpleasent with heat of light), but it is probably not practical. I should note here, that such a tank should not be considered mere;y for its low maintained, as Ben indicated that balancing the compost takes just as much time as feeding, and considerably more effort.

It is also important to consider how to add microfauna, and which frogs to add, and how healthy it would be for the frogs. I am considering adding a few thumbnails, to such a tank, as I think the bug production would be enough for these small frogs. It may not be feasible for larger frogs, unless you have a very large compost heap.

As for which bugs to add. Certainly it wouldn't be a bad idea to add some tropical springtails and isopods. It is probably important to have isopods as a calcium source for the frogs, since you will not be dusting. I wouldn't worry to much about other vitamins, as a balanced diet for the bugs is probably better than coating them with vitamin powder. Remember, mother nature doesn't dust her bugs for the frogs. The exception may be vitamin D, as UV light is limited in the enclosure. Ben said that he added vitamin D to his compost heap.

In addition to adding springtails and sow bugs and fruit flies, it might be a good idea to add microfauna rich soil from outside. Outside plant matter introduced will ostensibly add some anyway, why not jumpstart the diversity? One note about this is that the could potentially introduce nemerteans. Nemerteansare small predatory roundworms, which can decimate your microfauna, but which are not eaten by PDFs. They are almost certainly something you do not want to add to you setup. The same could be true for a number of things introduced from outside, such as large omnivorous insects (which may even harm the frogs). It should be noted, however, that nemerteans found in tanks seem to be tropical (I can't find a link to the post), and thus probably hitch a ride with the frogs or plants. For this reason, it is probably a good idea to try to sterilize your plants before introduction to the tanks.

A couple of final notes, if I were to construct a compostium, I would probably model it afer Ben's, but reinforce the fern panel with 1/8 inch wire mesh to prevent frogs from finding their way to the wrong side fo the tank. Also, Ben tried to set up a second tank, but it appears it wasn't as successful as the first.

OK, I know that there is a lot of info here, but I think it is time that this got a focussed, detailed discussion. Any ideas?
-Mark


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

*EDIT*

Brent posted right after me and actually spoke to some of the questions and issues I brought up, so I retract them.

Great issues and subjects, Mark, and all need to be discussed and implemented and experimented with. Looking forward to what comes out of these sorts of discussions (both immediately and down the road).


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

VERY nice synopsis Mark! A little clarification, the link to the allochthonous systems post was actuall the second of a 2-part deal. Here's the link the the first part: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/frog ... sage/50139

Also, it is the fully self-sustaining vivarium (a vivarium that requires only the input of electricity to run itself) is what I described as very difficult to achieve. Allochthonous systems are much more attainable and compostiums (nice term btw) are good examples of this. In allochthonous systems, food is added to the vivarium in the form of dead biomass which acts as the basis for the ecosystem. Because that food is depleted over time, it needs to be refreshed periodically. Thus, making it not a truly self-sustaining vivarium which relies on photosynthesis to produce all of the food/biomass in the vivarium.


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi,

I've been running a compostium for a few months now- but a much lighter version then the full models described in your post. I have a Eipweb compost bin inserted into the viv, which gets my peels and bits from veggies. I've been trying to use it as a grow-out tank for imitator froglets, but I'm having difficulty keeping the microfauna levels high enough.

In retrospect, I think I'm lacking enough organic detritus to do this properly- the 55g tank has a coir bed for the plants, but no leaf litter to speak of, or even a nice organic soil above the clay pellet drainage layer. I think when I redo the tank, I'll go for a richer ABG style mix, with THICK leaf litter... might make the situation a little more sustainable. 

Diversity of microfauna does not seem to be an issue though- I have everything from slime-molds to some impressive roaches... might be enough to put some folks off....

At any rate, I think the whole topic is fascinating, and well worth considering for anyone interested in healthy frogs, or even the working of a viable ecosystem... thanks for the consolidating post!

-Afemoralis


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Afemoralis, I would suggest adding the leaf litter but forgoing the organic dirt mixture--the leaf littler WILL be your organic layer. I have had a clay-based soil substrate in one of my vivs and its topped off with a bunch of leaf litter. The greatest concetration of microfauna is at the meeting of the the soil and leaf litter layer where the leaves are breaking down. It's in this marginal space where the microfauna seems to do best, and I don't see that adding some sort of massive organic layer in the form you mention would really benefit what you're trying to achieve.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Afemoralis, nice to hear you've been experimenting. I'm really interested in your setup. Do you have any pics available? How many imitator froglets are in it? How bigs is the Epiweb compost bin? Did you seed the compost with detritus from outside? Did you have it up and running for a while before frogs were added? Do the roaches look like they could harm the frogs? This sounds really cool.

Any information will help all of us down the road. Thanks,
-mark


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## tzen (Nov 22, 2007)

So Mark, are you long time lurker, first time poster? Very nice summary of some things I've been thinking about too.
Disclaimer: Although I've read most of what you reference, I haven't set up anything like this yet.

Regarding clay based substrate: Everyone has proof that the plants can do fine without it. Kyle has mentioned that young frogs he has in vivs with clay based substrate grew very rapidly and the microfauna (springtails) seemed more sustained, likely because the clay offered hiding and breeding areas that the frogs couldn't access. A compsostarium would do the same thing. 
Personally, I'm beginning to think if the clay were easy (i.e. no mixing and remixing and forcing thru 1/4 inch screen) I would put a shallow layer on the bottom. If there is no easily purchasable product, though, I might skip it, if I were going to have a composting area anyway.

Ben also introduced "ghost ants." Ants in a viv scare me. Where the heck do you find ghost ants? Josh and Ed don't sell them.

For his popular article, Ben had about 1/2 as a compost bin. I think he mentioned in his final comments that about 1/3 might be OK. I suppose it depends on how many of what kind of frogs you are trying to sustain.
This doesn't go along with your ideal of a totally self sustaining ecosystem, but I'd like a composting area that is big enough to supply isopods and springtails, but I could deal with adding fruitflies. If you built out the back bottom of a viv that has an opening on the side (i.e. a 55 vert that the front is still the front, just oriented vertically) you could probably get about 1/6, or 9g, area for a compost bin. Or two bins, if you follow Ben's advice so that you could have them at different stages in the cycle.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

tzen said:


> seemed more sustained, likely because the clay offered hiding and breeding areas that the frogs couldn't access. A compsostarium would do the same thing.
> Personally, I'm beginning to think if the clay were easy (i.e. no mixing and remixing and forcing thru 1/4 inch screen) I would put a shallow layer on the bottom. If there is no easily purchasable product, though, I might skip it, if I were going to have a composting area anyway.


Hi Tyler, There are a couple of things that clay does for you that compost doesn't. First, it provides a mineral source for the microfauna (at least in theory) which creates a nutrient cycle within the vivarium ecosystem and eliminating some of the issues with mineral supplements. Second, compost breaks down into humus over time which tends to become compact and waterlogged. Mineral soils like clay will never do that in your entire lifetime. I have vivs that have been running over 12 years and the original clay substrate is as good as the day I put it in. That's not an issue if you tend to tear down and rebuild vivs every few years. But if you want to build something sustainable, then permanence is a good thing as it allows the ecosystem to fully mature.



> Ben also introduced "ghost ants." Ants in a viv scare me. Where the heck do you find ghost ants? Josh and Ed don't sell them.


Those were a really small and docile ant. I use to have access to a species of Monomorium that frogs liked to eat and were no issue in the vivarium. There are many species of ant that would be just fine. But you need to know what you are doing.



> For his popular article, Ben had about 1/2 as a compost bin. I think he mentioned in his final comments that about 1/3 might be OK. I suppose it depends on how many of what kind of frogs you are trying to sustain.


Some of the links that Mark posted, and the one I posted talk about what determines the size of the vivarium and the amount of organic material needed to fuel it. I've developed some very rough estimates from my experiments that indicates that if you provide 1 square foot of floor surface area and about 30 gallons of volume per gram of frog, you can approach sustainability in a standard vivarium (no refugia/compostium). You can likely shrink that size substantially with a dedicated refugium.

Lastly, there was mention earlier about the remote regugia connected to the viv and a need to drive invertebrates out of the refugium to make them enter the vivarium. That is not necessary. If the connecting space provides suitable habitat for the invertebrates, then they will migrate out into the vivarium naturally. As the refugium population reaches carrying capacity, the surplus animals must migrate or perish. This is known as a source-sink metapopulation.


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

markbudde said:


> Afemoralis, nice to hear you've been experimenting. I'm really interested in your setup. Do you have any pics available? How many imitator froglets are in it? How bigs is the Epiweb compost bin? Did you seed the compost with detritus from outside? Did you have it up and running for a while before frogs were added? Do the roaches look like they could harm the frogs? This sounds really cool.
> 
> Any information will help all of us down the road. Thanks,
> -mark


No pics right now, sorry.

The EpiWeb ' compost bin' is a square 8 inch pot with a lid made out of a sheet of the same material. The bin was seeded on start up with a culture of tropical springtails, and White terrestrial isopods. Everything else has come in on veggie bits from the garden. The froglets were put in about a month after the bin was added in (3 standard imi's from parents in my collection). The roaches are standard FL monsters- I don't think they'd go for frogs. There is visible microfauna- but either the size classes or density were off for the imitators- they were getting too skinny for me to feel good about leaving them in there after about 2 months- surviving but not thriving. I never saw an isopod get out of the bin.

I'm going to try again after a rip-down and substrate recomposition, but for now it's running empty.

Afemoralis


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

OK, I've got most of my materials and I am soon going to make some substrate. I couldn't decide on which recipe to use, and being experimental in nature, I am going to divide my 55 gallon tank into quandrants and try a different type of soil for each quadrent. After a year or so, I will check and see which looks healthiest. I am looking for maximum microfauna production, so this will all be covered in leaf litter. I decided not to include a water feature in this tank, because they always end up taking up so much floor space. I am going to drill the tank to drain the false bottom, circulate the air with a fan and mist 1 or 2x /day. 

Remember, these will all be covered in leaves, and I plan on growing my plants epiphytically on wood and background and vines. The key here needs to be long term stability, ion exchange, drainage and porosity.

The soils:
1) Brent Brock's Dirty Old Man Performance Substrate (DOMPS). I could't find any Ace brand acrylic mortar fortifier and bonder, so I bought some quikcrete. I will mix this into the soil with the water. Hopefully the substitution works.

2) Based on DOMPS, but instead of adding fortifier and lime and will be using portland cement. I am playing around with concentrations to get it to help hold together but not become a rock. Portland cement gives of calcium when it cures.

3) Crushed LECA (and maybe some clay and soil)

4)??? Any ideas? I would like to try matt's soil, but I can't justify buying all those ingredients. Maybe I'll try a simplified kitty litter based substrate.



-Mark


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

You could borrow another page from Matt's playbook and mix native soil with iron oxide to get that tropical soil look (and high iron content) from actual soil. I look forward to seeing the results. Bear in mind you'll want to keep your leaf litter and other organic inputs uniform across the different soil types to get a fair test on microfauna production. I was reading the other night that clay soils contain up to 500 times more microbial biomass than sand so the clay should potentially have a much higher nutrient cycling capacity. But that potential will depend on the quantity and quality of nutrients trickling down through the particles.


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

I am curious about how the iron oxide soil, which is high in iron allows moss growth. I have read the recipes and threads dealing with trying to make tropical soils. The amount of iron oxide doesn't seem real high, but many moss killers for the lawn are based upon high iron content which kills the moss. My question is "How does moss grow on the higher iron content long term ?"

Ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread-6.html

Experiences-slightly-modified-soil-recipe.html


Here is a modified recipe that has good photos about how to make the a similar type product.

DIY-my-take-clay-based-substrate.html


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

Great post Mark,

I used to set up most of my vivs with a sphagnum moss substrate and drainage layer of styrofoam peanuts or leca. I have been switching over to just dirt and leaf litter over the last year plus and still have a good number to go to fully complete this task.

In the time since I have seen increased and better quality offspring from thumbnail and pumilio species. Most of the the dirt tanks have a wider range of microfauna than the sphagnum tanks. I also find most of the bugs in the decomposing leaf litter as opposed to the soil. I try and replenish the leaf litter as the top layer breaks down. The only thing that truly rivals the leaf litter is a rotting bromeliad, it houses tons of isopods.

I have also found eggs in the leaf litter in spots none to clean, which resembles more accurately what we see in books than the old film canister/petri dish shots. 

I have not found too many plants that produce dead material as they grow, the best one is Calathea micans. It's a slow grower but seems to have a layer of dead shoots around the perimeter of the growing mass. This interstitial area between live and dead plant matter should offer a great microfauna spot in theory, but I haven't torn it up to see.

Keep us posted Mark
Eric


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

davecalk said:


> I am curious about how the iron oxide soil, which is high in iron allows moss growth. I have read the recipes and threads dealing with trying to make tropical soils. The amount of iron oxide doesn't seem real high, but many moss killers for the lawn are based upon high iron content which kills the moss. My question is "How does moss grow on the higher iron content long term ?"
> 
> Ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread-6.html
> 
> ...


Hi Dave,

I have a test set up that has had moss growing in the clay substrate for literally years now (at least 4-5). 

Ed


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Ed said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I have a test set up that has had moss growing in the clay substrate for literally years now (at least 4-5).
> 
> Ed


That's great to know, thanks Ed.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Old Old Thread but fascinating subject... Many updates on your experiments with this?

Anyone know if Mark is still active?


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