# Tongue stickiness cures???



## hukilausurfer (Aug 31, 2009)

So my frogs bEn doing pretty well the past few weeks but it seems as if he's been slowly losing tongue stickiness recently. I dust with a pinch of repcal and a pinch of herptivite every feeding. Does anyone know of a way to stop this from progressing?


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## azure89 (Jan 5, 2009)

Stop dusting for a few feedings and make sure the frogs are humid enough thats what I did when this happened to my frogs and they seemed to rcover fine


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## hukilausurfer (Aug 31, 2009)

Anyone else wana chime in?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A loss of stickiness of the tongue is often caused by insufficient vitamin A in the form of retinol/retinyl in the diet. If the frog's condition has progressed to the point where it cannot capture prey with its tongue, it will probably need to be assist fed as well as dosed with retinol/retinyl (in the correct proportions). 

Other possible causes are deformation of the bones in the tongue/mouth due to disruptions of the calcium metabolism. 

Ed


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## hukilausurfer (Aug 31, 2009)

The frogs still able to get food it just may take him a few tries to get a fly. So does anyone else have suggestions on how to prevent this from going further?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hukilausurfer said:


> The frogs still able to get food it just may take him a few tries to get a fly. So does anyone else have suggestions on how to prevent this from going further?


Well you should determine the proximal cause.. whether it is a deficiency in vitamin A as retinol/retinyl (particularly since many of the common supplements use beta carotene as the source of vitamin A..) or another problem such as calcium disruption.. as that will direct how you need to resolve the problem. 

Ed


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Ed said:


> Well you should determine the proximal cause.. whether it is a deficiency in vitamin A as retinol/retinyl (particularly since many of the common supplements use beta carotene as the source of vitamin A..) or another problem such as calcium disruption.. as that will direct how you need to resolve the problem.
> 
> Ed


Can you give us some suggestions on how to improve or dose retinol/retinyl? I understand what you are saying but some people may not know what to do in order to address this in their frogs. Thanks for the info!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Using a supplement that contains retinol/retinyl as a source of vitamin A is a good start...

Not to be rude or curt, but the appropriate ratios of fat soluble vitamins to aid in choosing the appropriate supplements have been discussed not only on dendroboard many times but are discussed in much of the appropriate literature on not only dendrobatid husbandry but in the general husbandry of reptiles and amphibians as well. 

Before attempting to treat this sort of problem one has to determine if it is due to calcium metabolism problems or due to insufficient vitamin A as treating for the wrong condition can make the situation worse (due to the ratio issues mentioned above...) by exacerbating the condition. This along with the comment of


> ". So does anyone else have suggestions on how to prevent this from going further? " [endquote] reminds me that it would be risky for me to put dosing information on an open forum where people may ignore the risks and start to shotgun blast away in the dark room without bothering to check to see if what they did was appropriate.. This is a significant risk not only to the animal but to the person providing the information...
> 
> As a further comment (and one that may be taken as rude).. there is a fair bit of information here on Dendroboard on this exact problem along with discussions on how to treat it (search short tongue syndrome).
> 
> Ed


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## hukilausurfer (Aug 31, 2009)

Oh I totally get what your saying. Guess I was trying to get an easy answer without doing the research. Well since I only have one frog ive been mixing supplements and then still have lots of dust left in the cup. I've then been using that same dust for maybe three days before dumping them. Could that take away the potency of the suplements?


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## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

Yes, the vitamins and things that make up your supplements break down pretty quickly. You should dump it after every feeding. Also you shouldn't be mixing the supplements together, alternate one supplement at a time every other day.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

M_Rybecky said:


> Yes, the vitamins and things that make up your supplements break down pretty quickly. You should dump it after every feeding. Also you shouldn't be mixing the supplements together, alternate one supplement at a time every other day.


Dumping after every feeding is too extreme.

I mix 1 or 2 or sometimes 3 different calcs and vits together in a dusting cup and continue to use them until they are gone, which is about 2 weeks for me.

Hopefully Ed can ad to this.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you are keeping the rest of the supplement in an open cup in the frog room, it is probably better to dump it after each feeding as the temps and higher humidity are going to cause problems with it. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ed,

Lemme make sure I got this.......dump after every feeding?

as in....

_No_ _standing powder_ in the dusting cup?

For even a couple days?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Ed,
> 
> Lemme make sure I got this.......dump after every feeding?
> 
> ...




It depends on where you leave the cup. The rate of oxidation of the fat soluble vitamins is higher in warmer conditions and is higher in conditions with a higher moisture content. One has to remember that the mixture of a supplement that contains retinol/retinyl, D3 and a calcium source is already going to have a higher rate of oxidation as these ingredients also help to catalyze an increased rate of oxidation which is only faster when in warmer, higher humidity conditions (bright light can also speed it up). 

As a further complication, the particle adherence to the feeder insect is going to change as the finer particulates adhere to the insect leaving the larger behind, and the moisture from the feeders are also going to cause increased clumping (try looking under a steromicroscope at the changes in particulates). The changes in the particulate size is going to affect how long the powder is retained as well as potentially the ratios of what is in the powder. 

If you are going to reuse it, then it needs to be kept cooler, dryer and ideally reground before the next feeding. 

It really doesn't take a lot of supplement to coat a lot of insects so I'm not sure why there is a need to reuse leftover supplement. 


Ed


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