# When to start feeding froglet flies?



## Froman (Feb 1, 2021)

Hi i just had one of my powder blue tadpoles come out of the water. I put it in a grow out bin that i seeded with springtails so it can eat something when it wants. I tried finding when i can feed flies but couldnt find anything. So im wondering if i can feed right away or wait and let it eat springtails for awhile. Heres a pic of froglet also its the first tadpole i raised. thankyou in advance for responses


----------



## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

For larger froglets like tincs fruit flies are taken as soon as they start eating after morphing.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The thing that sometimes gets in the way is snap on lids of neo containers can startle in operation. 

So sometimes it looks like they dont want to take flies but thats not really it. 

I should have been more shocked at babies of several sp taking day old pins than I was. Im not 'recommending' it was what I had to work with, but it worked. 

Feeding ports in lid are helpful in relieving disturbia. A little snip w a foam plug. 

I found glass 2 1/2 slides to be favorite baby enveronments for many reasons incl stealth husbandry.


----------



## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Generally speaking, I think most animals are more disturbed by top opening enclosures than side - it spooks them more. Good call out @Kmc

You may find some newly morphed froglets will not eat right away. It may take a couple of days.

Try to keep a food source available to them, but ensure you are not overloading the enclosure with uneaten food that could stress them out, especially in a small enclosure.


----------



## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I usually setup my grow out ahead of time, and I seed it with springtails. 

Once the neomorphs absorb their tail, I still let them be for a couple days before I move them into the grow out. 

Once there, I let them go to town on the springtails for a week or two. Around that time, is when I start adding in a few fruit flies at a time. Slowly increasing it over the course of a week. By 2 weeks ootw, most frogs should be able to take Melos. Especially stunted flies. 

As others have said, just don’t feed too much. 
Too many flies can stress them out. 
10-12 flies at a time is plenty if you’re feeding every day to every other imo. 


- Nick Gamble -
Cleveland Frog Co.


----------



## Froman (Feb 1, 2021)

Gamble said:


> I usually setup my grow out ahead of time, and I seed it with springtails.
> 
> Once the neomorphs absorb their tail, I still let them be for a couple days before I move them into the grow out.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for reaponse thats the infor i was looking for. I have mela flies ready, ill wait a week to feed them to give time to eat springtails. Only thing is how do u stunt the flies put them in refrigerator or something?


----------



## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Froman said:


> Thanks for reaponse thats the infor i was looking for. I have mela flies ready, ill wait a week to feed them to give time to eat springtails. Only thing is how do u stunt the flies put them in refrigerator or something?


I wouldn't wait a week to feed them. Maybe a day or two and see if the actively hunt.

Stunted FF's for me are from old cultures past their boom (and likely past their usability), I have no idea how to actively culture a fresh "stunted" batch.


----------



## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Chris S said:


> Stunted FF's for me are from old cultures past their boom (and likely past their usability), I have no idea how to actively culture a fresh "stunted" batch.


That’s exactly what they are. 

They are the genetically inferior flies that tend to hatch out towards the end of a cultures life. The reason they are small is bc the cultures are nutrient deficient at this point. 

You don’t culture them per se. 
You just keep older cultures longer than usual. 
(Most people toss them at 4 weeks). 
Those old cultures are where the stunted flies come from. (And so do mites, so keep them separate from your regular cultures). 


- Nick Gamble -
Cleveland Frog Co.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Gamble said:


> They are the genetically inferior flies that tend to hatch out towards the end of a cultures life. The reason they are small is bc the cultures are nutrient deficient at this point.


A bit of a tangent, but is those flies' condition genetic or nutritional?


----------



## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Socratic Monologue said:


> A bit of a tangent, but is those flies' condition genetic or nutritional?


I’d be inclined to say perhaps a little bit of both. 

In my mind, it’s kinda like the chicken or the egg. 
You know. 


- Nick Gamble -
Cleveland Frog Co.


----------



## Tinc Tank (Jun 29, 2019)

When someone says tincs will eat flies immediately after morphing, I question whether or not they have actually bred and raised tinc tads. I do exactly as Gamble said. I seed the froglet container with lots of springtails ahead of time and that is their main food source for the first 2 weeks. My tincs won't really entertain flies until after that period.


----------



## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Tinc Tank said:


> When someone says tincs will eat flies immediately after morphing, I question whether or not they have actually bred and raised tinc tads. I do exactly as Gamble said. I seed the froglet container with lots of springtails ahead of time and that is their main food source for the first 2 weeks. My tincs won't really entertain flies until after that period.


To be clear: I have never raised a tinc tad, nor have I ever kept them, but I would say that if they are actively feeding on springtails, they can actively feed on FF's, no?

I've raised many, many Ranitomeya though. Some have eaten melanogaster day 2 OOTW, others a week later. The sooner they start on FF's, the sooner you can ensure they are getting their proper supplementation (dusting). I would question waiting 2 weeks to start on FF's, just for the supplementation aspect. Springtails are near impossible to dust and this is a crucial part of their development.


----------



## Tinc Tank (Jun 29, 2019)

Chris S said:


> To be clear: I have never raised a tinc tad, nor have I ever kept them, but I would say that if they are actively feeding on springtails, they can actively feed on FF's, no?
> 
> I've raised many, many Ranitomeya though. Some have eaten melanogaster day 2 OOTW, others a week later. The sooner they start on FF's, the sooner you can ensure they are getting their proper supplementation (dusting). I would question waiting 2 weeks to start on FF's, just for the supplementation aspect. Springtails are near impossible to dust and this is a crucial part of their development.


That is just not the case in my experience. The melos get ignored. I think the crucial difference is that Ranitomeya mature way sooner than Dendrobates. And the tip of a tinc's tongue is specialized for small things, which is why springs are like candy to them at any point in their life.


----------



## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Chris S said:


> To be clear: I have never raised a tinc tad, nor have I ever kept them, but I would say that if they are actively feeding on springtails, they can actively feed on FF's, no?
> 
> I've raised many, many Ranitomeya though. Some have eaten melanogaster day 2 OOTW, others a week later. The sooner they start on FF's, the sooner you can ensure they are getting their proper supplementation (dusting). I would question waiting 2 weeks to start on FF's, just for the supplementation aspect. Springtails are near impossible to dust and this is a crucial part of their development.


I’ve never once dusted my springtails. 
I question it’s practicality to be honest. 

But to directly respond ... the crucial part of their development is from the time they leave the water until they reach maturity and start breeding. 

Until they begin to breed all resources are dedicated to growth & development. 

So while I agree that it is indeed a crucial point, it is but a small period of time compared to the bigger picture, and one that can be made up for once supplementation begins with the introduction of fruit flies. 

If they are fed a well supplemented diet as tadpoles, I feel the couple of weeks should probably be a wash, and evens itself out. 

I personally do not feel that letting them be for the first couple of weeks is harmful at all. 
In fact, it may even help them by reducing their stress levels and allowing them to transition into a fully formed amphibian. 

This is just my perspective/opinion though. 


- Nick Gamble -
Cleveland Frog Co.


----------



## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Every week I make an intentionally stunted fly culture for my younger frogs. I use half the usual amount of media but add a ton of seed flies. I started doing this as an “overflow” container instead of culling flies to make my other cultures last longer, but 10-14 days later I’d get a nice crop of stunters. It worked so well I never stopped.

The point being- I think crowded conditions are what make stunted flies, maybe by mechanism of excreted growth inhibitors. And I don’t think they are genetically inferior. I can’t speak to the nutritional content, but they are raised on fresh high quality media.

Also, my tinc neomorphs always went straight to apterous melanogaster. I don’t expect any of the frogs to eat until a couple days out of the water, but I know they show a preference for smaller undusted prey. (FWIW the only tincs I’ve ever raised were azureus)


----------



## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Gamble said:


> I’ve never once dusted my springtails.
> I question it’s practicality to be honest.
> 
> But to directly respond ... the crucial part of their development is from the time they leave the water until they reach maturity and start breeding.
> ...


There are a lot of good points here, and ones I agree with. Again, I don't raise tincs, so I will most certainly take a back seat to any advice you guys have to share here based on your experience.

As for springtails, I find the calcium supplements kill them very fast, so I never dust them either.


----------



## Tinc Tank (Jun 29, 2019)

Broseph said:


> Every week I make an intentionally stunted fly culture for my younger frogs. I use half the usual amount of media but add a ton of seed flies. I started doing this as an “overflow” container instead of culling flies to make my other cultures last longer, but 10-14 days later I’d get a nice crop of stunters. It worked so well I never stopped.
> 
> The point being- I think crowded conditions are what make stunted flies, maybe by mechanism of excreted growth inhibitors. And I don’t think they are genetically inferior. I can’t speak to the nutritional content, but they are raised on fresh high quality media.
> 
> Also, my tinc neomorphs always went straight to apterous melanogaster. I don’t expect any of the frogs to eat until a couple days out of the water, but I know they show a preference for smaller undusted prey. (FWIW the only tincs I’ve ever raised were azureus)


The "crowded conditions creating stunted flies" is probably from there not being enough nutrients available in the media to support that many flies. And when the culture is old, of course that is when you will see stunted flies because a majority of the nutrients have been used up by that point. I don't bother with stunted flies because they are nutritionally inferior flies in my opinion.

By the way, you should be dusting at every opportunity you get, I don't dust the springtails though. Don’t let the frog win. Just like a child needs vitamins, your frogs need their vitamins.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Not only are larvae feeding on depleted matter and waste (even the dead have been broken down to lesser components) but gases exchange in the cup. Not just because of population but fecal build up blocking the vents. It makes me suspect stunting is more environmental then genetic. Gases exchange goes under the radar in so many circumstances. The Invisible Resource.


----------



## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Tinc Tank said:


> The "crowded conditions creating stunted flies" is probably from there not being enough nutrients available in the media to support that many flies. And when the culture is old, of course that is when you will see stunted flies because a majority of the nutrients have been used up by that point. I don't bother with stunted flies because they are nutritionally inferior flies in my opinion.
> 
> By the way, you should be dusting at every opportunity you get, I don't dust the springtails though. Don’t let the frog win. Just like a child needs vitamins, your frogs need their vitamins.


The reason I said “crowded conditions create stunted flies” is because I can purposely make stunters by overcrowding a brand new culture. The media is fresh and not “depleted,” and there is plenty of media leftover when the larvae go to pupate.

I’m sure the phenomenon of growth stunted adult fruit flies can be multifactorial, but in this instance the media is fresh and the vents are clear.

My comment about young frogs preferring undusted prey was just a friendly way of saying why newly morphed frogs with access to plenty of springtails might not be taking flies. I don’t think flies, especially stunted apterous melanogaster, are too big for tinc neomorphs.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Chris S, thanks for the comment. Hey you know on more than a few encls Ive snipped plastic lock tabs, filed tracks and lid frames to reduce percussives and brash entrada as at the very least, a courtesy to my charges.


----------



## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Kmc said:


> Not only are larvae feeding on depleted matter and waste (even the dead have been broken down to lesser components) but gases exchange in the cup. Not just because of population but fecal build up blocking the vents. It makes me suspect stunting is more environmental then genetic. Gases exchange goes under the radar in so many circumstances. The Invisible Resource.


It is also genetic. 

Overtime, you can genetically alter your flies to crash after the first bloom. 

This is due to a bottleneck of the genetics, and poor stock selection. 

If you only seed your cultures from flies coming from the first bloom, you will genetically alter your flies to become more susceptible to poor culture conditions, bc you’re not using the flies at the end of the cycle that are more resistant towards these conditions.

It is bc of this, when I make my FF cultures, I use flies from a minimum of 3 different cultures, all at different stages of development. 

This allows my cultures to maintain a genetic stock that isn’t “trained” over time to crash. 

This is why I say it’s the chicken or the egg. 
Both circumstances affect the other, and vice versa. 

It is discussed here:








Genetics and FF culturing...


There are a lot of recommendations on the boards on how to set up a fruit fly culture as well as which medias produce the best... there is a genetic component to both of this items (and with the media, the media can influence it as well).. If you start all of your cultures from the first major...




www.dendroboard.com






- Nick Gamble -
Cleveland Frog Co.


----------

