# SLS - R.Ventrimaculata tads.



## frogs keeper (Oct 5, 2010)

hey guys..
i've more than 50 tads of R.Ventrimaculata, but , the first 5 who are came out of water had sls and are died... how can i do with the other tads ?

their parents are a couple, i'm feeding with drosophila melanogaster and springtails.. i use repashys vitamin A plus, Calcium plus and Supervite twice a week .. day : 25°C night: 21°C .. 60/80% humidity

i'm feeding the tads with that Sera spirulin tabs (Spirulina-tabs)
the water of the tads is 22°C..

where i'm wrong ??

Thank you .
Andrea


----------



## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

This is very common with this species and a majority of us who have bred them have had initial runs of froglets morphing with SLS. I bred them about 10 years ago and the first couple clutches resulted in SLS but thereafter I was getting healthy froglets yet changed nothing in my husbandry. 
Don't worry, you are about to be in over your head with healthy babies from these guys!


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

How are you supplementing the adults?
Perhaps your supplements are old and expired? Or they aren't quite getting the nutrition they need?


----------



## frogs keeper (Oct 5, 2010)

evry 6 months i change my supplements ( i use repashy vit A, repashy calcium plus, repashy supervite and, once a month, nekton msa) . their parents are helthy, the problems are only in tads  

i feed tads with Sera spirulin tabs :

Analisi qualitativa: ---- Vitamine aggiunte per ogni kg di prodotto:
Protidi grezzi: 53,8 % Vitamina A: 30.000 U.I.
Lipidi grezzi: 5,5 % Vitamina B1: 30 mg
Fibra grezza: 8,9 % Vitamina B2: 90 mg
Calcio: 1,2 % Vitamina C stabilizzata 
Fosforo: 1,9 % (L-ascorbyl-2-polifosfato): 550 mg
Vitamina D3: 1.500 U.I.
Vitamina E: 60 mg


is it good ?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The latest word on Spindly Leg Syndrome is that it is linked to the nutrition of the parents.
You list Repashy Calcium Plus and Supervite being used. Calcium Plus is designed to be Repashy's "stand alone" supplement. Supervite was designed to be used hand in hand with Repashy's "SuperCal" formulas.
If you are using Calcium Plus one day, then Supervite the next, you are not dosing as much calcium as the formulas intend. To rotate these properly, you would have to add one of his "SuperCal" formulas in, too. Or drop the Supervite.
Allan Repashy outlined the use of these products to me in a personal email communication.

I would also address your tadpole feed. Vents are extremely cannibalistic. Why would a vegetarian be so cannibalistic? My formula is at the end of this thread, but there is some good info about tad nutrition throughout. Please do NOT use the formula I discuss at first. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/64001-tad-food-powder-recipe.html


----------



## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

Tinctoc said:


> ...the first couple clutches resulted in SLS but thereafter I was getting healthy froglets yet changed nothing in my husbandry.


I had the same thing happen to me... I was getting 5-8 eggs every week-10 days. All of the tads that made it far enough to have legs develop had SLS and wouldn't survive long enough to make it out of the water... After pulling my hair out trying to figure out what I was doing wrong, I took some very good advice from some very experienced Froggers... I let the parents mature. Once I got one froglet that didn't have SLS, I had 10 more come out before seeing another with SLS which I'm thinking is due to the female/s being overworked (they're on a couple month break now).

I started getting good froglets when the parents were nearing 15-18 months of age... I started getting eggs when they were about 8-11 months old... It was very frustrating to constantly lose tadpoles, especially when on average 5 of 7 eggs would develop into what appeared to be healthy tadpoles.

Also, I didn't change my supplementing regimen through all of this, I use only Repashy Calcium+.

When the time's right, you'll be getting so many amazonica froglets your next problem is going to be figuring out an outlet for them.

All the best,
-Christian

Frogger Forever, Forever Frogger


----------



## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> How are you supplementing the adults?
> Perhaps your supplements are old and expired? Or they aren't quite getting the nutrition they need?


I believe the OP stated the answer to that.


----------



## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

This 'issue' has boggled me for years. Out of 11 species I have worked with and bred over the past 12 years, vents are the only species that have shown me SLS.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

for those who are interested there was a review of SLS and it's "cure" before the information on vitamin A was released.... 

The most common reason at this point appears to be related to nutrition, now this doesn't mean that there can't be other reasons but the nutritional caused cases appear (on anecdotal report) to swamp out other causes. 

Other documented causes are excess phosphate in the tadpole water (in the US many water companies add phosphate to reduce damage to the pipes which if also combined with carbon filtration can push it far enough to cause SLS). 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

It can also be caused by interbreeding and / or lines of old blood?


----------



## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

@ Pumilo: So what do you recommend? to use only Repashy Calcium plus and Vit A?


----------



## frogs keeper (Oct 5, 2010)

thank you all for the reply!!! 

so i've to suspend Repashy supervite supplements ???

repashy calcium plus every day + once or twice a month Rep. vit A ?

is that correct ? 


@ whitethumb thank you, i've an 1.2 of E.Mysteriosus


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

just use the calcium plus alone. you can supplement the vitamine a maybe once a month. but the calcium plus is recommended as a stand alone supplement. frogs keeper, i love your avatar. too bad their not legal here in the us


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogs keeper said:


> thank you all for the reply!!!
> 
> so i've to suspend Repashy supervite supplements ???
> 
> ...


My choice would be to discontinue the use of the Supervite. Use the Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding. I use my Repashy Vitamin A Plus once a month. I use Repashy SuperPig about once a month. 
If you choose to rotate another brand in, which many do, you want to make sure you are rotating in a "full formula". For instance you are using Calcium Plus on day one. That is a "full formula", including calcium and a full range of vitamins. If you rotate in Brand X's calcium on day 2, and draw the line there, it's not a full formula. You didn't add their vitamins so you could very will be giving more calcium than recommended and not enough vitamin mix. You would have to balance it out by using Brand X's vitamin mix on day 3.


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

you're welcome... do they do well in groups of 1:2? any female aggression? just curious, just in case they ever happen to be legal here lol



frogs keeper said:


> @ whitethumb thank you, i've an 1.2 of E.Mysteriosus


----------



## frogs keeper (Oct 5, 2010)

thank you Pumilio !!!

DAY 1 : REP. Calcium Plus
DAY 2 : REP. Calcium Plus
DAY 3 : Brand X supplements.
DAY 4 : REP. Calcium Plus
DAY 5 : REP. Calcium Plus
DAY 6 : REP. Supervite
DAY 7 : REP. Calcium Plus
DAY 8 : REP. Calcium Plus
DAY 9 : REP. Vit. A
DAY 10 : REP. Calcium Plus
DAY 11 : REP. Calcium Plus


do you mean that ????


@ whitethumb : No aggression... Male call all the day but no eggs yet.  i'm hopeful


----------



## MikeM670 (Feb 3, 2011)

I too had the same issue with all my first tadpoles. They morphed out with SLS. I replaced all my supplements and along with the pair now being more mature the problem has gone away. 

I've gone to a strict 6 month replacement policy for all my foods and supplements.


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

lol, is the male call real loud. thanks for your feedback.



frogs keeper said:


> @ whitethumb : No aggression... Male call all the day but no eggs yet.  i'm hopeful


----------



## frogs keeper (Oct 5, 2010)

yes it is very loud.. i can hear it from out of my frogroom (with closed door )


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

lol thank you. im almost afraid to get a frog with a loud call, im scared its going to annoy me. and i would not want a mistie to annoy me lol



frogs keeper said:


> yes it is very loud.. i can hear it from out of my frogroom (with closed door )


----------



## rahunt2 (Jan 4, 2009)

Hello everyone,
I have had many an issue with Spindly Leg Syndrome.
I think most of the time I can blame it on overworked females but lately I have had problem with new parents.
It is interesting now that I am breeding 3 species of frogs: Imitators, Auratus, and Azureus but only the Auratus are currently developing spindly leg.

I don't disagree with the idea that parental nutrition can impact tadpole development but it amazes me that parents who contribute a little bit of material to the egg with have impact on nutrition all the way to one of the final stages of metamorphosis. Any one have advice or suggested reading to explain this to me?

Another consideration I have. Does anyone have much knowledge on osmotic gradients and how this could impact SLS. From what little I know, having too fresh of a water source such as Reverse Osmosis can be bad because it will create a gradient that removes inorganic ions such as Calcium from the tadpoles body. I have been reading that reducing this pressure by adding low levels of salt or Calcium Chloride can help reduce this pressure and maybe help SLS in some circumstances.

Any insight would be much appreciated and hopefully could help others too.
Ryan


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

rahunt2 said:


> I don't disagree with the idea that parental nutrition can impact tadpole development but it amazes me that parents who contribute a little bit of material to the egg with have impact on nutrition all the way to one of the final stages of metamorphosis. Any one have advice or suggested reading to explain this to me?


In short, the limb buds form before the tadpole ever hatches from the egg.. If there is a disruption of the limb bud formation say from a deficiency (since retinol is crucial to the correct development of tissues during metamorphosis (see this book 



 for a complete explination). Since there are issues with the limb bud, the programmed development does not complete correctly resulting in spindly leg (also if the feedback controls are disrupted, then this is another pathway to disrupted growth). There are other potential causes but this appears to be the most common. 



rahunt2 said:


> Another consideration I have. Does anyone have much knowledge on osmotic gradients and how this could impact SLS. From what little I know, having too fresh of a water source such as Reverse Osmosis can be bad because it will create a gradient that removes inorganic ions such as Calcium from the tadpoles body.


This is a myth that is continually perpetuated via the internet... 
First off, the osmotic gradient cannot and does not remove salts (any) through the semipermeable membranes of the tissues, or the skin... The correct pathway is that the water moves into the tissues (moves from hypotonic to hypertonic as a method of dilution) which if there isn't any active mechanism to work against the flow will eventually result in equilibrium. This has been discussed elsewhere in detail (see for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/70300-water-discussion.html). Now during active transport, the tadpole will use calcium ions to export water, but the tadpole is also able to actively scavenge calcium out of the water at the same time... so as long as the tadpole is healthy, there isn't any risk. See the above link to demonstrate the relatively minor differences between RO/DI and water used for the tadpoles and the osmotic gradient between them and the tissues..... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## rahunt2 (Jan 4, 2009)

Ed,
Thanks for the response.
I will have to pick up that book when I can or maybe dive into a few I already have.
I have never had the benefit of an embryology class and I honestly know almost nothing about how tadpoles progress internally from an egg to a froglet.
The second question resulted from my Animal Physiology Class. We learned about how water and salt balance occur in fish and this brought questions to my mind.
I realize now that I posed the question incorrectly even if it is a myth.
I would assume that since water can permeate the membranes of the skin and to a greater degree the gills that tadpoles must compensate for a constant inward flux of water from osmosis by increasing urine production which can result in a greater loss of ions due to the limits imposed by the nephron when diluting urine.
This being said it sounds like such a loss would be inconsequential and the tadpoles have methods similar to fish that can more than compensate under normal conditions.

It is always nice to get another perspective and learn a thing or two as well.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

you may also be interested in these http://jeb.biologists.org/content/184/1/47.full.pdf

and for how far some anurans can push it http://jeb.biologists.org/content/39/2/261.full.pdf 


Ed


----------



## frogs keeper (Oct 5, 2010)

hi again, friends !! finally i've my first frog without SLS !!they are 3 and are really healthy ... thank you very much for your advice !


----------

