# Dart frog stand in?



## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

I've set up my first viv, a 29gal with LECA, gravel, orchid bark, some charcoal, peat, topped with sphagnum, some mosses, pothos, a fern, leaves, a small pond, etc... Seeded with springtails, and I have two small cultures on the side, waiting for their populations to increase to start bigger cultures. Yet to acquire FFs, but I'm working on that. Eventually I want to have Leucs, Azureus, or Tincs, leaning towards the Leucs right now.

What I want to know is if there is a frog species that is similar to a dart frog in requirements, but in the 5-10$ range. I'd like to put a couple frogs in there to make sure that it can support life, and to have something entertaining in there while I wait for funds and opportunity to purchase darts. I also don't want to lose a group of expensive frogs due to some idiot mistake. I don't want or intend to lose any frogs really, but sentiment aside, I'd rather it be an inexpensive frog. Once darts are in, the stand ins will probably go back to the local petstore (a good one, not Petco or any place like that), or I might keep them in a different setup.

Don't give me flak about "animals testing" or anything, I have no intention of putting any frogs in a dangerous or unsuitable habitat. I just want to know if there are any frogs that would find a habitat suitable for dart frogs comfortable.


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## spottedcircus (Sep 17, 2009)

the main problem I can see with the idea is that the substrate would have to be switched out between frogs, becuase what ever parasites the first group had could then infect the second group of frogs. Leucamelas are pretty cheap around 25, if you have a reptile show near you its worth it to drive to save on shipping.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't know if You've considered this but...

What if the "Stand ins" are carrying, Hook worm, Lung worm, etc.


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Had not considered parasites, thanks. How common of a problem is that with captive frogs?
Neither had I seen leucs that cheap, next show around here is Frog Day, which I think is in March maybe.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

more common than we would like. Better just get the hang of culturing ff's and keeping your viv plants alive. That way when you get your leucs (great choice btw) you willo have the basics pretty much down. 25 is on the cheap side for leucs, but at shows or from your local breder you can probably find som for that price no problem. Leucs arequite forgiving as far as a 1st dart go, so I personally wouldnt worry about a stand in.
Id find a way to put a bromeliad in the viv too
Now "hop to it" and pot some viv pics


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

ALso, I don't know where you got your info, but your substrate is cause for concern. Charcoal does not really accomplish anything, and peat will eventually break down.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Con't

LECA is good, byt why gravel? It is so heavy.

Most people now use LECA with a mesh barrier, topped by what is essentially a modified ABG (Atlanta Botanical Garden) Mix:

4 parts coco coir
2 parts seedling orchid bark and/or tree fern fiber
1 part peat is okay

Clean collected leaves (like oak), cypress mulch are good soil amendments

See the Black Jungle website for some good tips

Be aware that Pothos gets real big, and fast. Abetter choice might be a small philodendron (a New World native, like dart frogs)


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Adding frogs before you add your Dendrobatids is somewhat counter-intuitive as they may feed on the microfauna you are trying to establish, reducing the invert population before you introduce your PDFs. I would recommend just letting it grow in and allow the inverts to establish themselves.

Patience can be difficult, but generally rewarding in this hobby.


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## winyfrog (May 30, 2009)

I agree with what everyone is saying.

Just work on your viv and get its temp, humidity just right before you add in your PDF's. Let your springtails populate etc.

I have leucs as my first PDF's and am loving them, they are very active and friendly begging me for FF


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Groundhog said:


> ALso, I don't know where you got your info, but your substrate is cause for concern. Charcoal does not really accomplish anything, and peat will eventually break down.


The charcoal was just something I had on hand, and it's really only a handful. I've seen it recommended in some soil mixes, can't remember where though since I've read so many. LECA is on the bottom, with mesh on top, the gravel holds down the mesh neatly, and forms the bottom of the small pond. A few handfuls of peat sprinkled on top of that, as well as a couple liters of orchid bark, and a couple inches of sphagnum on top.

I've pretty much ditched the stand-in idea with input from you guys. Thanks.


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Also, what's so bad about peat breaking down? Wouldn't it just become... dirt?


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Groundhog said:


> Charcoal does not really accomplish anything


Could you enlighten us on this point please?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

RMB said:


> Also, what's so bad about peat breaking down? Wouldn't it just become... dirt?


If by dirt you mean soil, then...no. One of the primary characterstics of dirt/soil is that it's non-organic and the result of rocks/sediment breaking down over time. Organic substrates (and combinations of organic media) can break down and compress, possibly forming anaerobic pockets within them. They can inhibit the production of microfauna as there isn't an environment conducive to their success, and can become difficult for plants to grow in. Also, once compressed, they might not drain well and prevent problems with drainage and standing water in the substrate.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Charcoal is recommended to help keep the substrate sweet. But once it is saturated, it stops absorbing--that's why we have to change the charcoal in our filters! Charcoal will not hurt anything, it just does not do what people think it will do...

Springtails and some leaves will help break down wastes (As beneficial organisms break down the leaves, it adds more usable organic material for plant roots). Your tank sounds nice. Try mounting a small bromeliad, and you're good to go!


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Alrighty, I'm just going to leave it be for now, unless I can get a brom to mount. Another question for though, what density of springtails should I be looking for? I can certainly find a few of them if I turn over a leaf or something, but should it be as dense as my cultures? I'm not even sure really how dense my cultures should be, but they aren't very heavily populated right now because I just moved them into a bigger container.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Johnny C:

Ever read Rex Lee Searcy's "Living Viviarium" column? I'm with him on charcoal. To reiterate, it is not so march harmful, as it is misleading. If its purpose is to sweeten the substrate, it can only do so for a very short while; if its purpose is to facilitate drainage, there are better alternatives.

The Black Jungle crew does not use or recommend charcoal, either. 

For terraria, seedling orchid bark, coco husks and/or tree fern are better substrate amendments; for wetter tanks, decomposed granite or #2 natural aquarium gravel.

Even orchid growers who use chunks of charcoal in their mix repot every year.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Nice to see you flesh out that point. I will say one thing for charcoal though. It's a good addition for newly set-up terraria that use products like GE Silicone II because the charcoal should grab and hold on to the vast majority of any organic chemical residue that enters the substrate during the first few weeks of the tank's life.


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