# best background material for dripwall



## the_deeb (Apr 21, 2008)

I was initially planning on using kitty litter/bentonite clay for the background of my paludarium dripwall but have been noticing a bunch of posts recently suggesting that it slowly breaks down under constant flow. I'm planning on a continuous, reasonably high amount of flow (water recirculated from the aquarium part of the tank). Since my build is quite large and the water portion is central to the display I really don't want a bunch of clay falling into it.

Is there some other material that will hold up better than clay? Alternatively, any ideas for ensuring that the clay stays put on the wall? I'm also considering eco-web as an alternative. One idea I had was to initially mount some eco-web and then rub the clay into that so it has some structure to hold on to. Thoughts?


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

What may help is putting lots of fibrous material into the clay, such as sphagnum and coco mulch, and then placing rocks and/or pieces of cork/wood where the water flow will be to resist erosion. I don't know if you've done any clay backgrounds yet, but they can be pretty durable. I just stick mine on the wall and press it on well, and it supports ledges and branches well.


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Treefern panels might be an option. After a few years you might have to replace them. The ecoweb/clay combo might work. In a tank as large as yours it might be worth it to make a quick stand alone comparison build between a clay or treefern/ecoweb drip wall. I know Ed has posted about his treefern panel and clay drip wall combo that has been up and running for ~2 years.

Maybe if you slowly increased the drip wall flow over time the plant roots would help hold everything together?


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## MichelleSG (May 1, 2010)

You can try using a combination. I have a piece of mopani wood with a hole drilled through it and set into the background substance (I think it's gs). That way the water is not degrading the clay, the clay is used to hold the wood in place. I draped java moss over it and it's overgrown such that you can't tell where the edge of wood meets gs.


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

MSG:
Unless you added it there is no clay in that tank. I have only begun to use the clay in very small amounts.

So far all clay experments I have done using pure sodium bentonite with sphagnum peat moss degrades rapidly under any sizable water volume. If you mist it, it seems to be ok, but if you want to have a waterfall going down it, you'll need to go with something a bit more structurally sound.

I would take a dry mixture of your background material and mix it wit a two part epoxy. This will make it look just like the rest of the background but will withstand the erosion of the water. You don't need to do the entire background like this as epoxy can be expensive but if your just doing the waterfall area it sholdn't cost you that much. I've used this method with good results on vertical waterfalls. On a horizontal one you could place rocks with the clay as the clay will settle into the crevices. 

But unless someone has pictures/video of a clay background with a waterfall running down it, and has a ratio recipe to go with it, I stand by the statement that it can't be done. Or at least not for more than about 1 hour, as my experiments have shown thus far.


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## MichelleSG (May 1, 2010)

Add clay to your builds? Oh my no, the only things I add are plants. Maybe some gravel. But no, I don't add anything like clay. If he used clay to hold some wood in it might work. As long as the water didn't run over any clay surfaces. But at that point you might as well go with gs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VivariumWorks said:


> MSG:
> Unless you added it there is no clay in that tank. I have only begun to use the clay in very small amounts.
> 
> So far all clay experments I have done using pure sodium bentonite with sphagnum peat moss degrades rapidly under any sizable water volume. If you mist it, it seems to be ok, but if you want to have a waterfall going down it, you'll need to go with something a bit more structurally sound.
> ...


If you look in this thread there is a enclosure that has an outflow of a magnum 350 that runs out across a substrate of clay and rocks. The stones are stabilized by the clay and the outflow does run across the clay. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...-bank-slope-terrarium-ideas-2.html#post467540
This enclosure has been up and running for more than 4 years.. I've been out of work for a few months but it was still set up and running at that time and should be visible if you want to make the trip. It was an approximate 50/50 mix of clay bentonite and peat. It was allowed to stabilize for 72 hours before the filter was turned on and there was some minor eroding of the clay (the water was cloudy for about 2 months) but the outflow was scaled up to allow for the biofilm and roots to fully stabilize the clay. 

In the same thread, the other tank with the drip wall ran for more than 2 years with a slow but steady drip wall without any collapsing or erosion of the wall. 

I haven't worked with a straight bentonite substrate/wall for the last couple of years as I find I get a better result from a clay mix that is between 50/50 and 70/30 (better towards the 70/30 end) of red art clay/calcium bentonite. This is then mixed about 60/40 with organics (usually a mixture of peat, coco nut husk, and cypress mulch fines). 

Ed


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i second tree fern. great stuff to work with and even better when you have the ability to "re-saw" them to 1/2" thick. as an added benefit, many carry numerous types of moss spores which i've had success with in the terrarium.

tropical plant products is a good place to start.

james


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

Ok so your packing the clay in-between the rocks like a mortar then right?

Doing that I have had it work.

But I haven’t had it work with sculpting a waterfall and having water flow down it. It erodes away pretty fast. (1:1 SODIUM bentonite/organics)

I am curious to see if your ratio works as I would like to find something like this for a few of my up coming projects.

So you’re suggesting:

~70/30 red art clay/CALCIUM bentonite

then mixed

~60/40 clay mixture/organics


This formula has allowed you to have water flow over it with little to no erosion for 4 years? Cool. Well I shall try it myself small scale and see what it yields.


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## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

if your really onto using clay you may want to use rocks or a really dense wood for the water to run on, but I use great stuff foam that you can buy at any home department store and just attach good sized rocks or whatever you want in it as it dries. make sure you have the patience or have things to hold the rocks while they dry. id send you some photos of mine to give you an idea and it looked great but i cant unfortunately since my paludarium caught on fire. it sucks.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VivariumWorks said:


> Ok so your packing the clay in-between the rocks like a mortar then right?
> 
> Doing that I have had it work.


The clay is also the cover on the top of the rocks, it is the substrate in which the moss and grass is planted. As I noted I allowed it to set before I allowed any water flow and I kept the flow very slow until the biofilm, moss and grass had a chance to become established. As it became established I turned to the flow rate up. This is a calcium bentonite/organic mixture. 

With the other set-up, I've had it running hard enough that a steady drip ran down the wall. 



VivariumWorks said:


> But I haven’t had it work with sculpting a waterfall and having water flow down it. It erodes away pretty fast. (1:1 SODIUM bentonite/organics)
> 
> I am curious to see if your ratio works as I would like to find something like this for a few of my up coming projects.
> 
> ...


With that mixture I am following the treatment pattern suggested by Matt in the Ultimate Clay thread as that allows for a more natural structure and better function of the clay. The establishment of the biofilm is also very important as noted in the clay bank thread... 

I'm not sure about your area but you may want to go out and inspect natural clay beds to give you an idea of how they should look and feel.... In this part of the country there are streams where the bank and/or bed consists of clay which changes the flow of the stream as the clay resists the flow of water.... 

Ed


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Imagine Epiweb or a similar material completely saturated with a clay mix. This could work as a stabilized clay bank...

Also, clay does resist erosion much more than many think. Here in VA/MD, clay lumps that have hardened over the years are found on the beach. They look just like rocks but are really part of the clay banks that line the shore. Also, the high density clay often found along stream banks will not be affected by a waterpump in a tank. Perhaps using this these types of clay would be a better solution for vivariums than kitty litter?


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## the_deeb (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks for the responses.

Ed - I'm encouraged by your long term success with clay under water low. While I'm ultimately planning on pretty strong flow I will have ball valves on the manifold leading to my drip wall which will hopefully allow me to start slow and scale up as the biofilm/roots provide support.

I'll have to look into using your calcium bentonite/red art clay mix instead of kitty litter. Incidentally, what kind of store typically stocks calcium bentonite? A quick google search seems to indicate that a bunch of places sell it for clay therapeutics?

Vivarium works - I like the epoxy suggestion. I've gotten pretty comfortable working with marine epoxy during the construction phase of my tank and thought of the same thing but had a couple of concerns:

1. Expense - I'm not planning on a single waterfall, per se, but rather a steady drip over the entire back and side wall (a spray bar across the top with holes every inch or so). This means I'd probably have to epoxy the entire surface which would be about 14 square feet. That would take a lot of epoxy and be pretty expensive.

2. It seem that covering the clay with epoxy would minimize water absorption which is big reason for why I wanted to use it in the first place. The moist, porous clay seems like it would be great for sequestering minerals, microfiltration and plant growth, whereas an epoxy clay wall would just be an impenetrable surface that plants couldn't root into.

Steven and James - Treefern seem like a nice option but I don't like the fact that it will ultimately have to be replaced. Redoing the background on a tank this size with a large water volume while it's in operation seems pretty daunting. For this reason I was planning on keeping organics (besides flora and fauna of course) to a minimum. I'm carving styrofoam "tree roots" rather than using real wood and was thinking of Eco-web instead of tree fern. My concern with Eco-web is how well mosses and ferns will take to it and the fact that until that happens the black sponge look isn't very natural or aesthetically pleasing to me.

Perhaps the bigger problem with my idea is my plan to have a drip running down the entire wall. I've only built one viv so far, but based on that I found that I got the best moss growth right around the waterfall area and relatively little on the other parts of the viv. I should mention that I was using "willow moss" which is one of the aquatic "mosses" and probably not a true moss. I was planning the same thing for this build - aquatic plants like christmas moss, willow moss, Hemianthus callitrichoides and riccia. That's why I was planning on so much water flow.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

treefern panels can last 10years (from what i've been told). and in reality in 10 years you'll probably want to change the tank around anyway.

james


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you go with a drip wall, you will find that it isn't necessary to run the wall all of the time as the clay will hold the moisture. Depending on the air exchange and circulation, you can run it as little as 15 minutes and get the same effect for the plants as a different one running all day.. 

If you read through the ultimate clay thread, you will see that people used low levels of acrylic binder to get the clay to hold its structure until the microbes get established. If you use too much you will end up with poor water penetration but lower amounts will be degraded by the microbes. 

If you want to get a moderate amount of calcium bentonite (as a little goes a long way) you can either look for it in a pottery store that sells clays (it is used as an ingredient in glazes) or you can get it from people who have repackaged it for use with koi ponds. You will need to look for a pottery supply store to get the red art clay in any case. 

On a different note, I have had osmunda fiber backgrounds in a drip wall for more than six years with no signs of breakdown. 


Ed


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## the_deeb (Apr 21, 2008)

Hmm... perhaps osmunda/tree fern is something I should consider after all.

My current plan is to have the dripwall fed by the outflow of my canisters which will be split between the dripwalls and a submerged return in the aquatic portion of the tank. Since the filtration will run constantly for the aquatic portion I can't think of a convenient way to have intermittent flow on the drip walls.

I like the idea of adding some acrylic binder to the clay. I did read the ultimate clay thread at some point but don't recall that - I'll have to go back over it. How much of the binder do you add and is there a particular brand that works best?


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

I have been working on a drip wall project for the past several weeks.
Due to the size of the enclosure I decided it would be best to go the GS, silicone and coco fiber method. I was concerned with the overall weight 
once the project was complete with driftwood, water, and other parts.
I had an issue with my manifold system, pin hole drip leaks. I went back to the drawing board and this morning as I write this a test on the system is under way on the porch. After I allow it to run for several days, I plan on making the move inside. I've attached a few photos that might help or give you ideas. I will be posting a DIY post once the project is complete. 
You can check out my original post under the "parts and construction"
section. "large vivarium" david64. It has some additional photos and information. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

Here is a pic of the manifold.


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## the_deeb (Apr 21, 2008)

That's a cool manifold. Did you make it yourself? I'm doing something similar:










It's made out of 1" and 3/4" Sch 40 PVC. Outlet 1 leads back to a submerged bulkhead in the water portion of the tank that will handle the majority of the flow, while outlets 2 and 3 lead to two bulkheads in the top corner of the tank and will feed the dripwalls.

I was initially planning on just using a straight piece of PVC pipe running across the entire length of the top with holes drilled into it at regular intervals. Now I'm wondering if instead I should attach one of these to the bulkhead inside the tank and then run 5 separate lines to specific points on the background.










It would give me a little more control over where the flow is going but would also mean that the entire background wouldn't be receiving water flow. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. Thoughts?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Here is a bad picture of the drip wall set up over a clay background.. this tank has been up and running for more than 4 years now... Its hard to see but those are streams of water running down off the rock in the center of the picture. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

the_deeb said:


> Hmm... perhaps osmunda/tree fern is something I should consider after all.
> 
> My current plan is to have the dripwall fed by the outflow of my canisters which will be split between the dripwalls and a submerged return in the aquatic portion of the tank. Since the filtration will run constantly for the aquatic portion I can't think of a convenient way to have intermittent flow on the drip walls.
> 
> I like the idea of adding some acrylic binder to the clay. I did read the ultimate clay thread at some point but don't recall that - I'll have to go back over it. How much of the binder do you add and is there a particular brand that works best?


I'd have to dig back through the thread as well for the amounts.... 

With controlling the on and off of the drip wall, depending on your budget and technical ability have you considered a solenoid controlled valve? 

Ed


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

After a lot of reading and thought, I decided to construct the enclosure with as much of the mechanics placed externally as I could.
With that in mind I plumbed a 1" bulkhead fitting on the lower back wall.
That would feed my external FLUVAL 405 filter which in turn would pump
clean filtered water through my manifold back to the drip wall.
Yes, I made the manifold. The trunk is 1" pvc and the individual valves are the ones used in drip irrigation. I purchased them from Home Depot 2 per pack.
I then used a tap bit to make the holes. Before securing them in place I put gasket sealer around the opening and on the valves themselves.
After running all day today there are some very tiny droplets that continue. 
I hope after letting it run for several more days they too will stop on their own. Here is a great web site that I have found very useful in aquiring parts for my build. 
Aquatic Eco-Systems: Aquaculture, lakes, aquarium, koi ponds
I thought about placing my manifold inside as well. However, I wanted the ability to repair, adjust and replace any and all parts with minimal effort or disruption to the enclosure once complete.
Hopefully, when time permits I can post a DIY with all the photos and helpful links.
Keep up the good work, and keep us posted. 
Thanks for the link you sent.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Ed said:


> I haven't worked with a straight bentonite substrate/wall for the last couple of years as I find I get a better result from a clay mix that is between 50/50 and 70/30 (better towards the 70/30 end) of red art clay/calcium bentonite. This is then mixed about 60/40 with organics (usually a mixture of peat, coco nut husk, and cypress mulch fines).
> 
> Ed


Hi, I could really use some clay advice for a water feature I'm working on. I have yet to use clay in a viv but I'd love to figure out a mixture that could hold up under a low flowing stream. Ed, your success with the drip wall discussed in this thread gives me reason to believe I could create a stream using a similar clay mixture.

The build I'm working on will have a stream with an overall slope of only 8°, I just want to channel water across a sheet of epoxied plywood that is already in place at that slope.

I'm wondering, do the organics in this mix provide any structural integrity in the long term, or are they there mostly for aesthetic reasons?

I want a mix with OPTIMUM erosion resistance, I will have the stream bed mostly covered with rocks and sand, so coloration and texture aren't such a concern for me.

Thanks,
Jon


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

How many months are you willing to wait before turning the flow up? 

How long are you willing to put up with cloudy water? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Ed said:


> How many months are you willing to wait before turning the flow up?
> 
> How long are you willing to put up with cloudy water?
> 
> ...


At least two or three, I'm in no rush with this build. Is that enough time? I figure I'll plant the tank and get some moss growth while the water feature is settling in.

Now that several years have gone by, would you still recommend the same clay mixture seen in this thread?

Thanks,
Jon


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When I've done clay in those sorts of applications it required fiddling with the water on a daily basis as you initially need to have it just barely moving over the clay. Any faster than that and you'll start to see erosion of the clay. As your running the water much slower than is easily adjusted unless you spring for good valves (inexpensive ball valves don't give enough fine tuning for easy work and are stiff so if the tubing isn't well secured you can cause things to shift). 
As time goes on you'll want to slowly increase the water flow until its where you want it to be but if you make a mistake and turn it up too fast you can also undo a lot of good work. After many many months of moss growth and slow water adjustment I've had it be able to withstand the outflow of a magnum 350 but if you moved a rock or pulled or added something to it, I would have to start over until everything was reestablished. 

You'll also see a lot of water clouding initially and then anytime it is disturbed for at least three months unless you get moss growing across it by then. Even after that point, if you remove structures (plants etc) you can still get clay erosion so you have to be careful when working in the enclosures. 

You'll also need to monitor the pH until it stabilizes and be prepared to do multiple water changes until the pH is in a range you want it (and doing some significant disturbance can start this process over again) and staying there. If your not careful each water change or filter change can also cause problem as you can stir up moved clay particles and when you restart the pump the outflow is often higher than before it was cleaned as material that was blocking it have been removed. 

You could easily be out three-6 months before it is really physically stable. Most people aren't patient enough to let the entire process work itself out or to fiddle with the water on a daily basis to keep it flowing correctly. *This is something that should only be tried if you can keep from disturbing it for months. * If your a person whose going to be in the tank constantly (or frequently) adding and removing things, this is probably not going to work for you in the long-term. 

some comments 

Ed


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks Ed,

I think I'll give it a try for the sake of experimentation. If I can't get it to hold, I can always pull the clay out and do it with spray foam. I just like that the clay is natural.

Do the organics help with forming the biofilm, or are they just in the mix for aesthetics?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jonjoyce346 said:


> Thanks Ed,
> 
> I think I'll give it a try for the sake of experimentation. If I can't get it to hold, I can always pull the clay out and do it with spray foam. I just like that the clay is natural.
> 
> Do the organics help with forming the biofilm, or are they just in the mix for aesthetics?


It depends on the organics being added to the material. Many people don't like the appearance of the clay by itself so they add stuff to try and change the pigment. The main benefit of organics like peat moss and osmunda fiber is that they provide a spore source for the establishment of ferns and mosses (keep in mind that if you don't like the ferns you have to be careful about their removal). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks Ed,

I appreciate the info, happy holidays 

Jon


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jonjoyce346 said:


> Thanks Ed,
> 
> I appreciate the info, happy holidays
> 
> Jon


If you can locate any local clay beds (they may just be a couple of feet underground) look at them for their structure to see why it can be tricky to emulate in the enclosure. 

You also need to watch how thick you put the clay since a number of people had problems with thick walls collapsing as the water finally hydrated the deeper layers destabilizing the wall (most common with primarily sodium bentonite clay walls). My best success was less than an inch thick and it was stable for years once I got it established. 

Some comments 

Ed


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