# tesorosdecolombia.com



## RNKot

Sure thing not an ad, just want to know what are you guys think about this info.
Frogs

_Now accepting orders!!
For the first time ever, Colombia has approved to export legal captive bred Poison Frogs!
Be the first to have legal spectacular F1 Dendrobates truncatus, F2 and F3 Phyllobates terribilis, Phyllobates aurotaenia and Dendrobates auratus, (two morphs of each species).
Tesoros De Colombia Sustainable Farm is proud to offer high quality frogs, bred in the best conditions of welfare and also supporting conservation projects in Colombia.
Soon we will be offering Oophaga lehmanni and histrionica as well as Phyllobates bicolor. In the future we will be working with several species of Andinobates and Ranitomeya._

Maybe such discussion was already, than link it please. 
Thanks.


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## pa.walt

understory enterprises deals with them also I think black jungle will be dealing with them.. buying from them would cost you. probably minimum of $1000.00 in frogs and then the permits.


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## frogparty

This is the company rumored to be gearing up for lehmannii export in the next year or two


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## ZookeeperDoug

Yes, they've announced lehmani for the future, they also recently announced on Facebook that histrionics will be here sometime next year.

This is only of course if we continue to support their efforts now. 

I for one am very excited. I purchased Nilo Truncatus from them in their initial offering through understory.


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## mydumname

I didn't see auratus on the UE list for them....did anyone else get info on these auratus from UE?


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## epiphytes etc.

I think this is exciting news for everybody. Please, let's make sure that, in all the excitement, we don't let any current species/morphs in the hobby fall by the wayside.


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## frogparty

I think its a shame that truncatus was their first offering. Its a nice frog, but its not a very high demand frog. Yes, I would love to support their efforts, but that doesnt mean that Im going to purchase a frog I have no interest in keeping, just so I can hope to purchase a frog Im actually interested in in the future. 

I know that they will have a very eager crowd awaiting LEGAL lehmanii and histrionica. I for one would love to be working with legal animals from the large Oophaga group. 

Heres hoping for blue bulls eyes!


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## epiphytes etc.

.... and thumbs!


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## frogparty

YEAAAAH! 


I really hope that their efforts are successful. 
I know theres a group operating out of Colombia that has been rearing and exporting beetles to Japan for several years now, and those guys sell out INSTANTLY! 
Im betting that once tessoro starts providing higher end frogs to the market, their efforts will be well rewarded, and we'll contunue to see unique offerings from them


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## Azurel

I talked to Elaine and the auratus wasnt available this up coming shipment in October...Couldn't give me a price either...but I have ordered a couple blackfoot terribilis since I wanted those anyway.

Can't wait to see what kind of Ranitomeya they will be working with...

sent from my Galaxy S lll


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## Julio

frogparty said:


> This is the company rumored to be gearing up for lehmannii export in the next year or two


is not a rumor, is a fact, they are just releasing other frogs in the meantime, i ordered some stuff, really excited to get it soon.


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## frogparty

I remain very hopeful that you're right! Amazing frogs, and I'm extremely happy about them being legal, and money going back to Colombia. 
The more money that careful management of their natural resources brings in, the more likely they will be to expand their efforts!


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## Julio

yeah, i am gonna need more tanks!! i already ordered a few, but lots more stuff being discovered and finally coming in legally its really exciting!


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## Reef_Haven

Julio said:


> yeah, i am gonna need more tanks!! i already ordered a few, but lots more stuff being discovered and finally coming in legally its really exciting!


Are you importing them in yourself?

Black Jungle has posted their prices and is taking orders for an October shipment. 
UE is not bringing in the auratus on the first shipment.
Is anyone else importing these in the U.S.?


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## Julio

No i am not importing them myself. 
I placed my order through understory.


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## whitethumb

i can't wait for legal lehmanni (any color) and histos (blue banded, blue bullseye, or quebrada docordo northern).... got my fingers crossed.


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## ZookeeperDoug

I just got an email that understory will no longer be exporting frog from WIKIRI, only facilitating their sales, and that the frogs will come directly to the US via Interior Ecosystems. 

Curious how people feel about that? I have no experience with IE. I liked the idea of the frogs passing through Mark's expert hands before coming to me.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Reef_Haven said:


> Black Jungle has posted their prices and is taking orders for an October shipment.


Where have them posted their prices and for which species?


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## Julio

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I just got an email that understory will no longer be exporting frog from Teseros, only facilitating their sales, and that the frogs will come directly to the US via Interior Ecosystems.
> 
> Curious how people feel about that? I have no experience with IE. I liked the idea of the frogs passing through Mark's expert hands before coming to me.


Understory is just a facilitator. It actually works best that way so they don't have to get to sets of CITES paperwork, one to be imported into Canada and another to imported into the US.


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## epiphytes etc.

Doug, IE is UE's US side. The frogs will still pass through Mark Pepper's hands


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## ZookeeperDoug

epiphytes etc. said:


> Doug, IE is UE's US side. The frogs will still pass through Mark Pepper's hands


Are you sure about that? You saying Mark is gonna come to the US and sort the frogs here?

Also I fixed the post to indicate WIKIRI and NOT Teseros. The email only mentioned WIKIRI. My bad on that.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Julio said:


> Understory is just a facilitator. It actually works best that way so they don't have to get to sets of CITES paperwork, one to be imported into Canada and another to imported into the US.


That I of course agree with. Reduces costs too.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Julio said:


> is not a rumor, is a fact, they are just releasing other frogs in the meantime, i ordered some stuff, really excited to get it soon.


Whatcha getting? I was really tempted but no room for new frogs for me until next year.


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## Julio

just some black footed terribilis for now, til i get more tanks, since i am rebuilding at the moment, hoping to get some other frogs from them as i get more room, dont' wanna have them sitting in tupperware.


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## Gamble

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Where have them posted their prices and for which species?


BJ is charging $215ea for the Terribs ...
In contrast, UE was only charging $185 for Orange & $150 for yellow.


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## Gamble

epiphytes etc. said:


> Doug, IE is UE's US side. The frogs will still pass through Mark Pepper's hands


This is incorrect.

UE will place your order for Tesoros or WIKIRI ...
But they are shipped directly from those facilities to IE ... UE (Mark) never sees them.
IE then ships them to the customers.

Basically IE is Mark's US middleman contact.


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## pa.walt

mydumname said:


> I didn't see auratus on the UE list for them....did anyone else get info on these auratus from UE?


they might be in next time. I asked.


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## Gamble

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Curious how people feel about that? I have no experience with IE. I liked the idea of the frogs passing through Mark's expert hands before coming to me.


IE (I cant remember his name) is a nice guy.
I pick up my UE orders from him since he is based near Toledo, OH which is only 2hrs from me . I've met him a few times due to my face to face pickups.
Seems knowledgeable enough & I'm sure Mark wouldn't trust him with their frogs/shipments if he wasnt worthy of it.


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## jruffing46

I also pick up my frogs from UE in Toledo. To add to what Nick already said, his name is Tim and he works at the Toledo Zoo at the Reptile house. In talking with him it seems Mark and him are very close friends and business partners. He has a lot of experience and has an extensive amphibian collection of his own. No reason for any concern there.


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## Julio

They been working together for a while now. My last order went through Tim and Eco systems.


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## whitethumb

maybe its a metaphorical hand? 



Gamble said:


> This is incorrect.
> 
> UE will place your order for Tesoros or WIKIRI ...
> But they are shipped directly from those facilities to IE ... UE (Mark) never sees them.
> IE then ships them to the customers.
> 
> Basically IE is Mark's US middleman contact.





epiphytes etc. said:


> Doug, IE is UE's US side. The frogs will still pass through Mark Pepper's hands


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## ZookeeperDoug

Thanks guys. That's exactly the kinda info I was looking for.


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## skylsdale

frogparty said:


> I think its a shame that truncatus was their first offering. Its a nice frog, but its not a very high demand frog. Yes, I would love to support their efforts, but that doesnt mean that Im going to purchase a frog I have no interest in keeping, just so I can hope to purchase a frog Im actually interested in in the future.
> 
> I know that they will have a very eager crowd awaiting LEGAL lehmanii and histrionica. I for one would love to be working with legal animals from the large Oophaga group.


Unfortunately, this is exactly the case.

I had a chance to talk with Ivan (the owner) down in Costa Rica during SACAS. This is a project that has been in process since 2006 and it has taken this long just to make truncatus available. Also, his hands are somewhat tied with the Colombia government as to what he can make available and when--it comes down to what he is able to get permits to export. He had little choice in the initial offering(s) that have been made. _Dendrobates truncatus_ was simply the only frog the government officials would allow him to export first. 

But here's the clincher:

The model depends on those initially released species selling in order to maintain the operation financially so that they can continue their work until permits are finally granted for the higher demand _Oophaga spp._ frogs. So if people don't buy the 'less desirable' frogs (which is completely subjective--I think truncatus are amazing frogs), then the chances for histrionica and lehmanni to be made available diminish exponentially.


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## Peter Keane

skylsdale said:


> Unfortunately, this is exactly the case.
> 
> I had a chance to talk with Ivan (the owner) down in Costa Rica during SACAS. This is a project that has been in process since 2006 and it has taken this long just to make truncatus available. Also, his hands are somewhat tied with the Colombia government as to what he can make available and when--it comes down to what he is able to get permits to export. He had little choice in the initial offering(s) that have been made. _Dendrobates truncatus_ was simply the only frog the government officials would allow him to export first.
> 
> But here's the clincher:
> 
> The model depends on those initially released species selling in order to maintain the operation financially so that they can continue their work until permits are finally granted for the higher demand _Oophaga spp._ frogs. So if people don't buy the 'less desirable' frogs (which is completely subjective--I think truncatus are amazing frogs), then the chances for histrionica and lehmanni to be made available diminish exponentially.


Nice job Ron, 
I already have truncatus, but ordered more.. Not just to because I want to see lehmanni come in, but because like you said, they ARE amazing frogs. There are over 70 color variants /combinations in histrionica. So, if this first and second phase of these frogs begin to payoff.. We will be rewarded on something new. I would love to see some new histrionica come in. Tesoro's lehmanni are being raised on surplus eggs. Not sure if this is because they don't want to overburden the females and save her eggs for making more or if there is an issue with letting the females care for them as they would in the Wild. I am also going to order some of those gorgeous auras. So, c'mon people, get some frogs.. We haven't been this close to legal lehmanni in three decades!!! (I got some, my very first fog actually, back in 1975 (pre-CITES), but still not sure if they were legal then).. If you're curious or some may already know.. Guess what I paid per lehmanni frog back then, lol
Peter


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## ecichlid




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## Reef_Haven

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Where have them posted their prices and for which species?


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sponsor-classifieds/125953-frog-day-sneak-peek.html


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## Reef_Haven

Just so I'm clear, 
UE is importing them directly to IE in Ohio. IE is then immediately forwarding them on to each end customer? UE is absorbing all the import fees, permits and inspections and each end customer is only paying for shipping from OH, or is there an additional handling fee?


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## mydumname

I would guess shipping to US is built into cost of frogs....we would probably just pay normal shipping.


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## pa.walt

what you are not paying is $ shipped to Canada then $ shipped to the states. you will be just pay $ to have them shipped to the states. it will cost less. from wikiri to you. not wikiri to understory then to you.


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## epiphytes etc.

Gamble said:


> This is incorrect.
> 
> UE will place your order for Tesoros or WIKIRI ...
> But they are shipped directly from those facilities to IE ... UE (Mark) never sees them.
> IE then ships them to the customers.
> 
> Basically IE is Mark's US middleman contact.


I stand corrected


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## Gamble

Reef_Haven said:


> Just so I'm clear,
> UE is importing them directly to IE in Ohio. IE is then immediately forwarding them on to each end customer? UE is absorbing all the import fees, permits and inspections and each end customer is only paying for shipping from OH, or is there an additional handling fee?





mydumname said:


> I would guess shipping to US is built into cost of frogs....we would probably just pay normal shipping.



You are Correct.


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## Gamble

epiphytes etc. said:


> I stand corrected


Sorry Jason


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## Julio

This hobby fluctuates so much, a few years ago everyone was looking for truncated, when I first got in this hobby that was my first frog as that was the one that was affordable to me when I was a freshman in high school, no way my parents would have given me $300 to spend on an aureus.


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## Sherman

The future of this project and future offerings depend on the revenue generated by us buying these frogs. It also depends on us not devaluing them by breeding them is such numbers that Tesoros can no longer be competitive in the marketplace or there is no longer a market for these animals.

I am obtaining a group of black footed terribilis and have no intention of breeding them. I will enjoy them but not breed them. I will pull eggs if they are laid and not raise them. I suggest that if these frogs are bred and sold that the seller maintain reasonable pricing and offer a donation to Tesoros to keep the project on track.

This opportunity is huge for this hobby. We stumble over ourselves scrambling to the next big thing, well frankly, this is it. These are not shady wild caught animals of dubious origin, being passed of as farmed. This is the real deal, site specific, 2nd and 3rd generation captive bred frogs.

I was also fortunate enough to meet Ivan down at SACAS in Costa Rica. He is a very dedicated man to have come this far. Many people told him he was crazy to even try this, crazier after all of this time and money spent trying to change Columbian laws. His friends encouraged him to quit. He persevered. He was able to get the truncatus permits because those are the frogs that are native to his property where he built his facility. (That is why he was able to get that permit first. That was not a conscious choice.) The truncatus came out, they did not sell. Mark Pepper was sitting on 400 at the time of the SACAS meeting. Ivan was distraught. He was almost at his breaking point, wondering if he should quit. We almost lost the opportunity for histrionica, lehmanni, terribilis, Andinobates, Ranitomeya etc.. The positive energy at SACAS seemed to bolster Ivan. (...or the beers, I don't know.) End result, Ivan is working hard to provide us with the frogs of our dreams. Frogs we don't even know about yet. Think about it, there are frogs in the deep, dark, dangerous corners of Columbia that have not been seen by anyone but narcos. This is our pathway to them. Legally. Sustainably. Responsibly.


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## Sherman

Tesoros de Columbia teaser.


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## Azurel

Sherman said:


> The future of this project and future offerings depend on the revenue generated by us buying these frogs. It also depends on us not devaluing them by breeding them is such numbers that Tesoros can no longer be competitive in the marketplace or there is no longer a market for these animals.
> 
> I am obtaining a group of black footed terribilis and have no intention of breeding them. I will enjoy them but not breed them. I will pull eggs if they are laid and not raise them. I suggest that if these frogs are bred and sold that the seller maintain reasonable pricing and offer a donation to Tesoros to keep the project on track.
> 
> This opportunity is huge for this hobby. We stumble over ourselves scrambling to the next big thing, well frankly, this is it. These are not shady wild caught animals of dubious origin, being passed of as farmed. This is the real deal, site specific, 2nd and 3rd generation captive bred frogs.
> 
> I was also fortunate enough to meet Ivan down at SACAS in Costa Rica. He is a very dedicated man to have come this far. Many people told him he was crazy to even try this, crazier after all of this time and money spent trying to change Columbian laws. His friends encouraged him to quit. He persevered. He was able to get the truncatus permits because those are the frogs that are native to his property where he built his facility. (That is why he was able to get that permit first. That was not a conscious choice.) The truncatus came out, they did not sell. Mark Pepper was sitting on 400 at the time of the SACAS meeting. Ivan was distraught. He was almost at his breaking point, wondering if he should quit. We almost lost the opportunity for histrionica, lehmanni, terribilis, Andinobates, Ranitomeya etc.. The positive energy at SACAS seemed to bolster Ivan. (...or the beers, I don't know.) End result, Ivan is working hard to provide us with the frogs of our dreams. Frogs we don't even know about yet. Think about it, there are frogs in the deep, dark, dangerous corners of Columbia that have not been seen by anyone but narcos. This is our pathway to them. Legally. Sustainably. Responsibly.


All great points.....I wouldnt have any issue breeding and a portion from any sale being donated back to Tesoros...

In fact take this as my public statement to do so with any frog I purchase and breed from Tesoros. It's on the internet forever so I cannot but live by it.

sent from my Galaxy S lll


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## oldlady25715

Very interesting discussion. 

Whats the deal with the butterflies for sale. Are they for mounted collections or live? Do people keep live butterflies in.....what greenhouses?


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## ZookeeperDoug

I'm pretty sure most of their butterflies are for mounted collections. Professionally mounted butterflies can fetch thousands for certain species. Some may go to greenhouses. I know many Zoos, Aquariums, Museums etc have butterfly free flight aviaries that people will go to. I've been to the one in Houston at the Natiral history museum there and it is very nice.


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## oldlady25715

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I'm pretty sure most of their butterflies are for mounted collections. Professionally mounted butterflies can fetch thousands for certain species. Some may go to greenhouses. I know many Zoos, Aquariums, Museums etc have butterfly free flight aviaries that people will go to. I've been to the one in Houston at the Natiral history museum there and it is very nice.


So they won't work in a 20 gallon tall with a few frogs..ok just making sure.... lol.

Might be worth ordering a batch of those, mounting and selling on ebay or at high-end art shows....


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## ZookeeperDoug

oldlady25715 said:


> So they won't work in a 20 gallon tall with a few frogs..ok just making sure.... lol.
> 
> Might be worth ordering a batch of those, mounting and selling on ebay or at high-end art shows....


Nope. The Houston one is a giant vivarium though, pretty cool.

Cockrell Butterfly Center


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## ZookeeperDoug

oldlady25715 said:


> Might be worth ordering a batch of those, mounting and selling on ebay or at high-end art shows....


Also this, to be done right, is excruciatingly difficult. There are all kinds of rules for mounting, condition, etc. so much as a few scales missing or a missing antennae and your mount is worthless in the eyes of a collector. It's why many collectors purchase pupae, hatch the insect, then euthanize it and mount it.


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## Dendro Dave

Sherman said:


> The future of this project and future offerings depend on the revenue generated by us buying these frogs. It also depends on us not devaluing them by breeding them is such numbers that Tesoros can no longer be competitive in the marketplace or there is no longer a market for these animals.
> 
> I am obtaining a group of black footed terribilis and have no intention of breeding them. I will enjoy them but not breed them. I will pull eggs if they are laid and not raise them. I suggest that if these frogs are bred and sold that the seller maintain reasonable pricing and offer a donation to Tesoros to keep the project on track.
> 
> This opportunity is huge for this hobby. We stumble over ourselves scrambling to the next big thing, well frankly, this is it. These are not shady wild caught animals of dubious origin, being passed of as farmed. This is the real deal, site specific, 2nd and 3rd generation captive bred frogs.
> 
> I was also fortunate enough to meet Ivan down at SACAS in Costa Rica. He is a very dedicated man to have come this far. Many people told him he was crazy to even try this, crazier after all of this time and money spent trying to change Columbian laws. His friends encouraged him to quit. He persevered. He was able to get the truncatus permits because those are the frogs that are native to his property where he built his facility. (That is why he was able to get that permit first. That was not a conscious choice.) The truncatus came out, they did not sell. Mark Pepper was sitting on 400 at the time of the SACAS meeting. Ivan was distraught. He was almost at his breaking point, wondering if he should quit. We almost lost the opportunity for histrionica, lehmanni, terribilis, Andinobates, Ranitomeya etc.. The positive energy at SACAS seemed to bolster Ivan. (...or the beers, I don't know.) End result, Ivan is working hard to provide us with the frogs of our dreams. Frogs we don't even know about yet. Think about it, there are frogs in the deep, dark, dangerous corners of Columbia that have not been seen by anyone but narcos. This is our pathway to them. Legally. Sustainably. Responsibly.


These are noble sentiments but I say breed breed breed... Not every frog that has come in from these kinda projects has gotten established in the hobby. *Where are all the green back trivs? *I don't think we can afford to risk sitting on any new frogs and not breeding them, at least not without some really firm assurances those frogs will continue to come in for some time. I doubt we can get that dealing with columbia. Also I like the idea of breeding them but then donating proceeds back to the project. That is far more practical in terms of making sure these exist in the hobby indefinitely...IMO.



oldlady25715 said:


> Very interesting discussion.
> 
> Whats the deal with the butterflies for sale. Are they for mounted collections or live? Do people keep live butterflies in.....what greenhouses?


I want some morpho for the dryad viv... would be so cool to see some flying around in there.


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## Roadrunner

If there is already problems with interest in the truncatus what good will breeding more of them do? 



Dendro Dave said:


> These are noble sentiments but I say breed breed breed... Not every frog that has come in from these kinda projects has gotten established in the hobby. *Where are all the green back trivs? *I don't think we can afford to risk sitting on any new frogs and not breeding them, at least not without some really firm assurances those frogs will continue to come in for some time. I doubt we can get that dealing with columbia. Also I like the idea of breeding them but then donating proceeds back to the project. That is far more practical in terms of making sure these exist in the hobby indefinitely...IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> I want some morpho for the dryad viv... would be so cool to see some flying around in there.


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## PumilioTurkey

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Also this, to be done right, is excruciatingly difficult. There are all kinds of rules for mounting, condition, etc. so much as a few scales missing or a missing antennae and your mount is worthless in the eyes of a collector. It's why many collectors purchase pupae, hatch the insect, then euthanize it and mount it.




When I read "mount" for a second I was thinking you guys are talking about WoW ^^


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## Sherman

Dendro Dave said:


> These are noble sentiments but I say breed breed breed... Not every frog that has come in from these kinda projects has gotten established in the hobby. *Where are all the green back trivs? *I don't think we can afford to risk sitting on any new frogs and not breeding them, at least not without some really firm assurances those frogs will continue to come in for some time. I doubt we can get that dealing with columbia. Also I like the idea of breeding them but then donating proceeds back to the project. That is far more practical in terms of making sure these exist in the hobby indefinitely...IMO.


Mark Pepper has opened up a portion of his facility to continue breeding at least the truncatus to allow Ivan to focus on the more "glamorous" frogs. 50% of the revenue goes back to Tesoro. Most of these frogs that are now available are quite fecund and can be bred in large numbers by a single, dedicated person. Everyone flooding the market will just lead to people viewing them as worthless and not "work" with them anymore. I prefer a handful of dedicated breeders over the breed breed breed strategy for the long haul.
-2 cents-


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## PumilioTurkey

Hard to decide.

On the one hand I'd love to see more rare frogs like Histri or Sylvatica bred with more sucess in order to feed all those keeper mouths.


On the other hand I wouldnt want to see some species turn into sell-outs with everyone shitting out CP in the hundreds thus lessening the "value" of these animals.

because thats what happened with frogs like Tricolor who are basically found now even at homestores in the pet corner.........


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## Sherman

For the record, I will support any and all breeding efforts when the obligates arrive. They are much harder to breed in massive numbers that will significant reduce demand/ price.

This is a strange hobby. We are not the end users that you see in other hobbies. For instance, radio controlled air plane hobbyists do not buy two planes and start a business the next year creating competition for the original source. This type of rampant capitalism is great most of the time, but if it makes it impossible for a project like this to support itself, we will all lose. Some projects deserve some special consideration.


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## pa.walt

Sherman how many people here are buying just to look at them. maybe just you and I. pretty sure others are getting them to breed and sell. if they were 20.00 a frog how many would buy theses frogs.


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## easternversant

pa.walt said:


> Sherman how many people here are buying just to look at them. maybe just you and I. pretty sure others are getting them to breed and sell. if they were 20.00 a frog how many would buy theses frogs.


I would buy these if they were $20!!! As is, I will not (and cannot).


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## frogparty

If they were $20 I wouldn't buy them still, because I have limited space and need to save it for projects I truly want. 

If I had more space, I'd get some of those auratus. Super nice


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## mydumname

Were they talking about truncatus for $20 or the sylvaticus?


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## frogparty

Truncs and autatus


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## kitcolebay

What is the best way to stay on top of availability, pricing, and ordering? 

-Chris


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## skylsdale

Dendro Dave said:


> These are noble sentiments but I say breed breed breed... Not every frog that has come in from these kinda projects has gotten established in the hobby. *Where are all the green back trivs? *I don't think we can afford to risk sitting on any new frogs and not breeding them, at least not without some really firm assurances those frogs will continue to come in for some time. I doubt we can get that dealing with columbia. Also I like the idea of breeding them but then donating proceeds back to the project. That is far more practical in terms of making sure these exist in the hobby indefinitely...IMO.


Green back trivittata didn't disappear because people didn't breed them: Bill Heath was cranking out tons of them when they first came in via Understory--they disappeared most likely _because_ they bred so well, and people figured, "Oh, I don't want to work with _that_. _Anyone_ can breed that. It'll be fine." And so no one works with it. We have seen this in various types of _E. anthonyi_ (an extremely fecund frog), some of which have disappeared completely from the hobby.

It's a fallacy that breeding is what is going to maintain a frog in the hobby. Longterm commitment and responsible management is what will maintain a frog in the hobby. I have auratus that are several years old. Their parents are 20 yr-old WC frogs that are still around not because the owner bred-bred-bred them, but because he committed to keep them in his collection. Actually, by NOT breeding them all the time probably helped them live this long and not burn out from constant breeding pressure. Sitting on frogs is exactly what will help preserve them, with occasional breeding to make sure at least a few offspring are making it out there.

The "breed breed breed" mentality is when the hobby shifts to a _trade_, which is an interest/venture marked by financial incentive. It's when people buy frogs wondering how many froglets they'll have to sell to "make their money back." It's when they show up to a show just looking for a good deal. That's not a hobby--a hobby is when you spend money and time knowing that you may never get that back, but the product of that money spent adds a value to your life that is not necessarily monetary in nature.

As Sherman said above, the Dendrobatid hobby no longer functions much like a hobby: everyone who buys frogs is suddenly a business. This is extremely unfriendly for ventures such as Understory, Tesoros and WIKIRI who are attempting to pioneer novel methods of making sustainable and ethically sourced frogs available.


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## Armson

skylsdale said:


> As Sherman said above, the Dendrobatid hobby no longer functions much like a hobby: everyone who buys frogs is suddenly a business. This is extremely unfriendly for ventures such as Understory, Tesoros and WIKIRI who are attempting to pioneer novel methods of making sustainable and ethically sourced frogs available.



I am just going to say that this is very very sad. I really don't want to see any of these companies going out of business. 


-B


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## oldlady25715

Having the frogs and breeding them is what makes the hobby fun for me. I think breeding them can be sustainable for both hobbyists and the organizations described as long as the hobby is growing at a healthy pace. 

When there is retraction in the hobby, as was the tendency during the recession, both types of breeders (hobbyist and frog farmers), go under and types of frogs are lost. 

With the improving economy, and efforts that should be undertaken to attract new hobbyists, the hobby and business models have a strong outlook. This is obviously just my perception, as there aren't any studies I know of correlating the overall state of the dart frog hobby to national economic trends. 

I think education and support of new froggers entering the hobby is key to a sustainable outlook for all the news species/locales and breeders of all sorts entering the hobby. .


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## oldlady25715

I would also like to see these frog farm start-ups sell shares to hobbyists that pay dividends, offer preference of new frog selection/first imports, and allow visits to the facilities etc. I would be willing to invest in something like that.


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## SeaDuck

oldlady25715 said:


> Having the frogs and breeding them is what makes the hobby fun for me. I think breeding them can be sustainable for both hobbyists and the organizations described as long as the hobby is growing at a healthy pace.


I enjoy this part of the hobby as well; however, how many time have you seen a post that wants to know what to do with 100 or more tadpoles that they have in containers? And they are still keeping eggs! 

Too many people let this part get out of hand. I know someone that currently has 200 Brazilian yellow head froglets. I don't believe that breeding responsible numbers hurts these companies though flooding the market is another story.

What will happen when the new terribilis start breeding? One or two groups could easily flood the US market. 

Robert


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## Dendro Dave

frogfarm said:


> If there is already problems with interest in the truncatus what good will breeding more of them do?


Well if those who do buy these will be patient and sit on on the offspring while continuing to breed they should eventually be able to sell them. I think sometimes people get to impatient with low demand frogs and stop "wasting time" with them and then eventually there aren't even enough to meet the low demand. But most will eventually sell if people have the space and patience to keep them for awhile. Wholesaling is another option, if not ideal. My guess is many people that buy frogs wholesale would take em if the price is right and then they may get spread through the hobby a bit more to the point where we get a sustainable CB population, especially if we could get people to return some proceeds back to the project. There is no guarantee though with low demand frogs... it may be a catch 22, damned if we do or if we don't.




skylsdale said:


> Green back trivittata didn't disappear because people didn't breed them: Bill Heath was cranking out tons of them when they first came in via Understory--they disappeared most likely _because_ they bred so well, and people figured, "Oh, I don't want to work with _that_. _Anyone_ can breed that. It'll be fine." And so no one works with it. We have seen this in various types of _E. anthonyi_ (an extremely fecund frog), some of which have disappeared completely from the hobby.
> 
> It's a fallacy that breeding is what is going to maintain a frog in the hobby. Longterm commitment and responsible management is what will maintain a frog in the hobby. I have auratus that are several years old. Their parents are 20 yr-old WC frogs that are still around not because the owner bred-bred-bred them, but because he committed to keep them in his collection. Actually, by NOT breeding them all the time probably helped them live this long and not burn out from constant breeding pressure. Sitting on frogs is exactly what will help preserve them, with occasional breeding to make sure at least a few offspring are making it out there.
> 
> The "breed breed breed" mentality is when the hobby shifts to a _trade_, which is an interest/venture marked by financial incentive. It's when people buy frogs wondering how many froglets they'll have to sell to "make their money back." It's when they show up to a show just looking for a good deal. That's not a hobby--a hobby is when you spend money and time knowing that you may never get that back, but the product of that money spent adds a value to your life that is not necessarily monetary in nature.
> 
> As Sherman said above, the Dendrobatid hobby no longer functions much like a hobby: everyone who buys frogs is suddenly a business. This is extremely unfriendly for ventures such as Understory, Tesoros and WIKIRI who are attempting to pioneer novel methods of making sustainable and ethically sourced frogs available.


I'm not sure I ever heard of Bills success with the greenbacks. I know some of the others that were brought in did ok and can still be found occasionally. Kudos to Bill, but is he or anyone else still breeding them? Maybe just having more frogs in the mix, possibly at lower prices in conjunction with some patience when they can't immediately offload froglets is what is needed. I would basically keep and breed every triv morph if I had the money when they were all available but, sometimes there or so few and/or the popularity trend takes these frogs out of the hobby before people who do want them are in a position to get them. Seems we need to find a way to keep them around a bit longer. I only see returning proceeds to the projects and/or breeding and selling these frog for cheaper then some may be comfortable with as some of the very few options. Maybe we need to make it easier for people to buy 4+ frogs, and cheaper frogs might allow more people period to setup breeding groups of 4+ frogs instead of just 2-3. There are people who get over excited and just want them and buy 2. I was guilty of that with the black bassleri that came in. Lesson learned, but others are yet to learn that lesson, or fail to repeatedly. 

*I agree with a lot of your points, especially the long term management points.* I think we both want the same things but I for one at least am just not sure which strategy is best. It is a fallacy that breeding alone will save them, but I mean you gotta have the frogs to get anything done so you gotta have enough breeding, and we need people willing to work long term with frogs even if they aren't the most popular ones if we want to establish them, especially if the source can't be relied on to supply them consistently. 

I think in my mind when I say breed, breed breed in relation to frogs like this I'm assuming that kinda management mentality, which is probably a bit naive admittedly. I see the merit of both sides... Just let UE or whatever project sell the frogs for awhile rather then breed em ourselves, or return proceeds back to those projects, or just breed breed breed to get them established in the hobby. My guess is the middle ground some where in there is going to be the best option... and then sadly sometimes we may just not be able to establish unpopular frogs ever and have to accept that... but I say fight till the end for them.

I wonder if the fear that frogs will be devalued isn't holding us back some too. I think we as a hobby really need to stop caring what a frog is worth $$$ wise, at least in that we need to not consider cheap frogs as trash frogs. I'd rather see $20-30 greenback trivs on everyone's available list then not see them at all. Maybe we need to peer pressure people more in this respect, like we do on mixing, and other issues. 

Also we as a hobby may need to try to pressure more people to put their money where there mouth is and return proceeds to these projects or just flat out donate to them. Maybe the people who breed 100's of azureus a year should take some of the profit, and a couple of their tanks and try some Truncs, or trivs or something...* Encouraging keepers with decent means and larger then average collections to adopt one or 2 less popular frog species/morphs to give back to the hobby may be a strategy that we've underutilized to this point. *

I'm usually pretty broke but I could afford to donate 5-10 bucks here and there if I was reminded to, and there were easy ways for me to do so. Or more breeders/projects did a little more PR work and brought attention to these projects. Man I think we need to get Mark or others on their behalf to do some fund raising drives for these projects... or even encourage commercial breeders to have a "Donate" button their sites so people buying frogs can easily/quietly pitch in an extra $5 here and there to keep these guys in business and so some appreciation for their efforts. Why don't we see more of this? *I'm lazy and forgetful... but make it easier for me to help and I probably will *

I totally agree that in many cases we don't need people churning out dozens and dozens, even hundreds of these frogs a year. That is why I have 2 female azureus with no mate. What would be the point? So I totally agree that in some cases we need people to just man up and pull their pairs apart, or maybe sit on offspring till UE or other entities have had some time to get a good number of frogs out there. The breed everything you have forever mentality in this hobby is a double edges sword. I don't think we can deny it has helped get many frogs well established in the hobby, but ya it has hurt others, or big commercial breeders and frog projects. We may be a victim of our own success sometimes. 

I'm all for supporting the big breeders and projects that bring new frogs into the hobby and help keep old ones alive. We need to find the balance, but we also need to be realistic if we want these frogs to stay in the hobby when sources can't be relied on long term. *I don't wanna undercut UE or anyone's efforts... but I don't think it is safe to completely rely on them either.*


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## Dendro Dave

SeaDuck said:


> I enjoy this part of the hobby as well; however, how many time have you seen a post that wants to know what to do with 100 or more tadpoles that they have in containers? And they are still keeping eggs!
> 
> Too many people let this part get out of hand. I know someone that currently has 200 Brazilian yellow head froglets. I don't believe that breeding responsible numbers hurts these companies though flooding the market is another story.
> 
> What will happen when the new terribilis start breeding? One or two groups could easily flood the US market.
> 
> Robert


Yes, I think we need to do more to discourage people from breeding extremely common species which really cuts into the big commercial breeders business, and those guys are often responsible for developing these frog projects or keeping old frog lines in the hobby. 

I don't have a problem with people breeding their luecs or azuerus a few times for fun and learning experience... but we don't need them to continue to do it for years. *Move on...concentrate on stuff that isn't so readily available please! *


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## Blue_Pumilio

The moment you try to control the market it rebels. I know I would. 

Supply and demand. I think it evens itself out that way. 

I say breed common species even more! I have overseas clients that will buy 1000 lots of some of the common stuff! What will quality captive bred frogs hurt? Maybe WC imports/sales of "trash" species? Who doesn't want some pretty frogs?


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## Dendro Dave

Blue_Pumilio said:


> The moment you try to control the market it rebels. I know I would.
> 
> Supply and demand. I think it evens itself out that way.
> 
> I say breed common species even more! I have overseas clients that will buy 1000 lots of some of the common stuff! What will quality captive bred frogs hurt? Maybe WC imports/sales of "trash" species? Who doesn't want some pretty frogs?


Ya I'm kinda with you, but also kinda torn. I really want UE and these projects to recoup their expense and make a profit but I also really wanna be sure these frogs stick around in the hobby and sometimes when dealing with these projects and their host countries, for whatever reason we can't always expect/rely on consistency from them.

Basically going over how things have played out in the past in my head, short of more people just straight up donating more money, or returning proceeds from frog sales back to the breeders and projects; I think maybe we've kinda done all we can.

I think short of the donations/returning proceeds we are about as close to the middle ground as possible, and we can't be sure that any one strategy is that much better (nor are we likely to be able to mobilize completely enough to employ only one strategy) so ya we are basically on the middle path, with only a little wiggle room for encouraging more donations, proceed returns, and maybe more education about the issues.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Dendro Dave said:


> Ya I'm kinda with you, but also kinda torn. I really want UE and these projects to recoup their expense and make a profit but I also really wanna be sure these frogs stick around in the hobby and sometimes when dealing with these projects and their host countries, for whatever reason we can't always expect/rely on consistency from them.
> 
> Basically going over how things have played out in the past in my head, short of more people just straight up donating more money, or returning proceeds from frog sales back to the breeders and projects; I think maybe we've kinda done all we can.
> 
> I think short of the donations/returning proceeds we are about as close to the middle ground as possible, and we can't be sure that any one strategy is that much better (nor are we likely to be able to mobilize completely enough to employ only one strategy) so ya we are basically on the middle path, with only a little wiggle room for encouraging more donations, proceed returns, and maybe more education about the issues.


How about we all do our part to help grow this hobby. New froggers that start out with tincs or leucs may someday grow into the froggers seriously interested in keeping histronicus or lehmanni. 
There is such a huge turnover in the hobby already that without new froggers all of this discussion is kind of moot.

BTW Ron, I'd love some green back trivs!!!


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## mydumname

Dendro Dave said:


> Yes, I think we need to do more to discourage people from breeding extremely common species which really cuts into the big commercial breeders business, and those guys are often responsible for developing these frog projects or keeping old frog lines in the hobby.
> 
> I don't have a problem with people breeding their luecs or azuerus a few times for fun and learning experience... but we don't need them to continue to do it for years. *Move on...concentrate on stuff that isn't so readily available please! *



I slightly disagree here.....azureus are what attracts new people to the hobby. 9 times out of 10 when someone sees my collection of frogs, azureus or my Costa Rican auratus are their favorites. Many first time hobbiests begin here and these are what sells at reptile shows....thus drawing more people in to the hobby. People have discussed hobby growth being needed....well to get the growth the main attractions need to be available. 

The dendroboard market is different then the rest of the market.


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## frogfreak

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> There is such a huge turnover in the hobby already that without new froggers all of this discussion is kind of moot.


And a big part or the reason for such a high turnover? Getting too many frogs to fast, breeding way too much and the very predictable "burnout"

Tackle that one and our hobby would be a far better shape.


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## Azurel

All of this changes if Tesoros makes them limited as Wikiri has just done with the Paru sylvaticus. If every frog they offer is only available for a year or two you better get them if you want them. 

Will be interested to find out if this is the same road Tesoros will take eventually.

sent from my Galaxy S lll


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## Azurel

Double post....sorry

sent from my Galaxy S lll


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## Dendro Dave

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> How about we all do our part to help grow this hobby. New froggers that start out with tincs or leucs may someday grow into the froggers seriously interested in keeping histronicus or lehmanni.
> There is such a huge turnover in the hobby already that without new froggers all of this discussion is kind of moot.
> 
> BTW Ron, I'd love some green back trivs!!!


Absolutely. (I want some green back trivs too!) 




mydumname said:


> I slightly disagree here.....azureus are what attracts new people to the hobby. 9 times out of 10 when someone sees my collection of frogs, azureus or my Costa Rican auratus are their favorites. Many first time hobbiests begin here and these are what sells at reptile shows....thus drawing more people in to the hobby. People have discussed hobby growth being needed....well to get the growth the main attractions need to be available.
> 
> The dendroboard market is different then the rest of the market.


I can't really disagree with any of that, but on the flip side we have a lot of inferior frogs enter the hobby this way, and some of these common species used to be the big breeders bread and butter that allowed them to keep and maintain other frogs through various popularity waves. My guess is it is harder for them to hold onto unpopular frogs for awhile till the trend changes then it used to be.



frogfreak said:


> And a big part or the reason for such a high turnover? Getting too many frogs to fast, breeding way too much and the very predictable "burnout"
> 
> Tackle that one and our hobby would be a far better shape.


That is a good point. So many people get into this and rapidly come to believe they are going to make a living at it, or at least a supplemental income and jump in with both feet and then are slammed by the reality that 50+ frogs, a full time job, significant other and/or kids and any kind of a social life or other pets is not easy to maintain. I know there for awhile pre ice storm I was starting to feel a little overwhelmed. 

I've got more experience now and less things going on in life so I think I could handle it again but I also have no wife/kids, down 2 ferrets so other then lack of funds I don't have as much holding me back as I did. Plus not many people can boast a 12k a year cost of living... Most people have double that or far more, so for me a part time income selling frogs and plants is a real possibility once I get an actual job so I can expand my frog and plant collection more. I may even be able to eventually make the transition to doing frogs, plants and art full time since my cost of living is so low, but even for me that is probably a couple years away at least. 

And if you are going to do it full time you have to get things breeding first and somehow keep your job, or have a chunk of cash to live off up till things ramp up, then you gotta keep things breeding, and have enough things going at any given time that if a few breeder pairs shutdown it doesn't end your buisness right then and there. I think many underestimate just how many frogs they need to have paired up and going at it.

Basically what I'm saying is quitting your job and getting over that hump where you're just a hobbyist to becoming a commercial breeder is by no means easy and in fact people who are already doing pretty well in life (and/or have excellent credit) are going to be the ones probably most likely to make it over that hump... If you're poor and trying this as your new career... good luck! 

And on even just a hobbyist level, it is real easy to quickly hit a wall where you just start to feel overwhelmed and not able to handle your collection, or worse yet let everything suffer while you go off and do other stuff. That is why you see so many come into the hobby, buy a bunch of frogs, get some breeding then are gone a year or 2 later, or down to just a couple frogs.

And if you aren't going to make a real effort at that you're kinda hurting everyone that is trying by pumping out a few hundred luecs, azureus, auratus, cobalts etc..etc.. a year. Sure breed em a few times, make a little money back then move on till demand ramps up for those species to the point where it isn't being readily met. Then jump back into the fray with your fresh frogs. 

That is another thing... How many people are giving their breeders breaks? Chances are they'll live longer or do you just figure you'll replace them with their offspring when they burn out? ...That would not be an attitude I would like to see in a frogger.


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## jruffing46

Dendro Dave said:


> Absolutely. (I want some green back trivs too!)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't really disagree with any of that, but on the flip side we have a lot of inferior frogs enter the hobby this way, and some of these common species used to be the big breeders bread and butter that allowed them to keep and maintain other frogs through various popularity waves. My guess is it is harder for them to hold onto unpopular frogs for awhile till the trend changes then it used to be.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a good point. So many people get into this and rapidly come to believe they are going to make a living at it, or at least a supplemental income and jump in with both feet and then are slammed by the reality that 50+ frogs, a full time job, significant other and/or kids and any kind of a social life or other pets is not easy to maintain. I know there for awhile pre ice storm I was starting to feel a little overwhelmed.
> 
> I've got more experience now and less things going on in life so I think I could handle it again but I also have no wife/kids, down 2 ferrets so other then lack of funds I don't have as much holding me back as I did. Plus not many people can boast a 12k a year cost of living... Most people have double that or far more, so for me a part time income selling frogs and plants is a real possibility once I get an actual job so I can expand my frog and plant collection more. I may even be able to eventually make the transition to doing frogs, plants and art full time since my cost of living is so low, but even for me that is probably a couple years away at least.
> 
> And if you are going to do it full time you have to get things breeding first and somehow keep your job, or have a chunk of cash to live off up till things ramp up, then you gotta keep things breeding, and have enough things going at any given time that if a few breeder pairs shutdown it doesn't end your buisness right then and there. I think many underestimate just how many frogs they need to have paired up and going at it.
> 
> Basically what I'm saying is quitting your job and getting over that hump where you're just a hobbyist to becoming a commercial breeder is by no means easy and in fact people who are already doing pretty well in life (and/or have excellent credit) are going to be the ones probably most likely to make it over that hump... If you're poor and trying this as your new career... good luck!
> 
> And on even just a hobbyist level, it is real easy to quickly hit a wall where you just start to feel overwhelmed and not able to handle your collection, or worse yet let everything suffer while you go off and do other stuff. That is why you see so many come into the hobby, buy a bunch of frogs, get some breeding then are gone a year or 2 later, or down to just a couple frogs.
> 
> And if you aren't going to make a real effort at that you're kinda hurting everyone that is trying by pumping out a few hundred luecs, azureus, auratus, cobalts etc..etc.. a year. Sure breed em a few times, make a little money back then move on till demand ramps up for those species to the point where it isn't being readily met. Then jump back into the fray with your fresh frogs.
> 
> That is another thing... How many people are giving their breeders breaks? Chances are they'll live longer or do you just figure you'll replace them with their offspring when they burn out? ...That would not be an attitude I would like to see in a frogger.


I dont really want to cause any controversy but define "inferior frogs." I see that as a very subjective term and not going over well with some people. In my opinion, all frogs made available have a place in this hobby just like they have a place in nature. To be clear, I do not mean that every frog should be in our hobby.


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## Dendro Dave

jruffing46 said:


> I dont really want to cause any controversy but define "inferior frogs." I see that as a very subjective term and not going over well with some people. In my opinion, all frogs made available have a place in this hobby just like they have a place in nature. To be clear, I do not mean that every frog should be in our hobby.


I just mean a lot of new people, and even some people who've been around for awhile don't produce the greatest most robust froglets. Sure maybe they survive to adult hood, even a few years but the best frogs are likely to come from experienced keepers who keep up with supplements, ply them with all kinds of micro fauna and basically just have good husbandry. I'm not saying new people can't or don't produce great frogs, I'm sure many maybe even most do, but the likely hood of them being really robust and healthy in the long term overall goes down the more you deal with novices.

To play the other side a bit though, it is good to have many breeders, even hobbyist breeders because if a few big breeders collections got severely contaminated with some kinda pathogen then we could all be really screwed. There are already reports or rumors that has happened, or has happened in the past so I'm all for NOT putting our eggs in one or a few baskets but also I think we need to tone down some of mass breeding of really common frogs.


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## jruffing46

Ok that makes more sense. Thanks for clearing that up for me.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Dendro Dave said:


> Yes, I think we need to do more to discourage people from breeding extremely common species which really cuts into the big commercial breeders business, and those guys are often responsible for developing these frog projects or keeping old frog lines in the hobby.
> 
> I don't have a problem with people breeding their luecs or azuerus a few times for fun and learning experience... but we don't need them to continue to do it for years. *Move on...concentrate on stuff that isn't so readily available please! *


Dave, when you say "big commercial breeders" who are you referring to? Just curious as to get an idea of where you're coming from.
If you mean big commercial breeder as in big business then it all boils down to economics. They aren't going to be interested in these frogs from Colombia since the market for them is much much smaller than the market for azureus, leucs, etc. 



mydumname said:


> I slightly disagree here.....azureus are what attracts new people to the hobby. 9 times out of 10 when someone sees my collection of frogs, azureus or my Costa Rican auratus are their favorites. Many first time hobbiests begin here and these are what sells at reptile shows....thus drawing more people in to the hobby. People have discussed hobby growth being needed....well to get the growth the main attractions need to be available.
> 
> The dendroboard market is different then the rest of the market.


I agree with what you're saying here Greg. I breed and sell the more common frogs at reptile shows. However that's not all I'm interested in. I want to keep more species like some of these Colombian frogs for myself, but also to share with other more advanced hobbyists. Without the more common frogs like tincs, auratus, and leucs, we wouldn't have the opportunity to purchase these new locales/morphs.
We must keep advancing and growing the hobby. Every show I do I meet people that have never seen a dart frog in person before. I take pleasure in debunking myths, educating, and showing these people my passion. Common frogs are the stepping stone to growth via new hobbyists.


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## dartboard

I love reading these types of threads that are full of all this crazy knowledge about everything to do with this hobby. As one with not much knowledge but a platform all the same, I"ll give my 2 cents

If these imported frogs can be owned by anyone, with freedom to do whatever they want with them, then it really matters not what we chat about here and what we say needs to be done.

When I bought our dog (a Rhodesian Ridgeback) from a local breeder, built into the purchase was the stipulation that I would get her fixed and not breed her. I understand that the breeder is better at knowing which animals to breed and has the whole system down better than if I decided to do it myself. I probably could have gone and bred her and the breeder never would have found out, but just that purchase agreement was enough for me to decide not to.

If the hobby truly wanted to let select people sell the frogs and no one else, they would have to do a much better job being selective who they sold to, getting agreements not to breed. It would slow down the progression. 

Just like hobbyist avoid out in the open purchasing frogs that we know were illegally smuggled here recently (like the ones currently listed for sale in the classifieds), If some frog of this new batch was being sold by someone other than designated sellers, we would all know it was against a contract


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## dartboard

My point is everything you guys are talking about cant be helped. If the businesses involved really wanted to have it the way you guys are saying would be ideal, they shouldnt be selling these frogs to the random masses.


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## ZookeeperDoug

dartboard said:


> Just like hobbyist avoid out in the open purchasing frogs that we know were illegally smuggled here recently (like the ones currently listed for sale in the classifieds),


And what frogs would those be?


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## Azurel

ZookeeperDoug said:


> And what frogs would those be?


The ad with syvaticus in the ad....I assume that is the one he is talking about.

sent from my Galaxy S lll


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## Dendro Dave

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Dave, when you say "big commercial breeders" who are you referring to? Just curious as to get an idea of where you're coming from.
> If you mean big commercial breeder as in big business then it all boils down to economics. They aren't going to be interested in these frogs from Colombia since the market for them is much much smaller than the market for azureus, leucs, etc.


I basically mean like saurian.net, sean stewart, UE, etc..etc.. and I suppose we'd have to include a few technically "hobbyist" people who actually sell/trade quite a few frogs. At times these entities are responsible for helping to keep frogs going in the hobby through various popularity trends, since they have the facilities and are profiting off other frogs in the mean time, they are often in a better position to hold onto things, though I'm sure some probably give up on some frogs when it just doesn't look like they'll ever get their money back. Then they sell/trade em for more profitable ones. Nothing wrong that just to be clear.

You may be right that many might not be interested in these colombian frogs, but then again if something turns out to be popular and/or have a high profit margin like the Paru or something they may get interested. 

Also every new WC auratus or whatever that comes in is potentially sold to someone instead of them buying suarian's blue auratus, or seans highland bronze, or some other frog from somewhere else. Basically it is one more vector of potential competition for other breeders. Just like all the people breeding the hell out of azureus or luecs or something...every one of them is another vector of competition. On the other hand having lots of hobbyist breeding frogs helps secure them in the hobby for the long term... I think it is about finding a balance and to some extent there isn't much we can do about what goes down except talk about this stuff like we are here, get it all out there and help people make informed decisions.

Oh and I'm Still I'm in favor of new frogs being introduced into the hobby as long as the wild populations can sustain it... or if they are all about to be wiped out by a dam, hell give us a few before you drown the rest of them


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## Sherman

Posted on Facebook today:
"NOT LOOKING GOOD FOLKS! Black Jungles goal to sell 50-100 of Tesoros frogs by October 7th is pitiful. To this date, we have sold ZERO! On September 14th at American Frog Day, Black Jungle announced that we would import sustainable captive bred frogs from Tesoros of Colombia. Richard even offered a presentation at frog day to try to reiterate the importance of supporting the sale of these frogs so that funding for future imports of would not fall by the wayside. If this American importation of rare Colombian frogs is going to happen, then we need pre-orders NOW. If we do not receive the pre-orders, it is presumed there is no true interest in the publics support of this program. This is unfortunate because we finally have our chance to offer long sought after legal and legitimate imports of these rare and highly desirable poison dart frogs."


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## mydumname

People have ordered through UE though....so frogs are selling.


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## Azurel

Sherman said:


> Posted on Facebook today:
> "NOT LOOKING GOOD FOLKS! Black Jungles goal to sell 50-100 of Tesoros frogs by October 7th is pitiful. To this date, we have sold ZERO! On September 14th at American Frog Day, Black Jungle announced that we would import sustainable captive bred frogs from Tesoros of Colombia. Richard even offered a presentation at frog day to try to reiterate the importance of supporting the sale of these frogs so that funding for future imports of would not fall by the wayside. If this American importation of rare Colombian frogs is going to happen, then we need pre-orders NOW. If we do not receive the pre-orders, it is presumed there is no true interest in the publics support of this program. This is unfortunate because we finally have our chance to offer long sought after legal and legitimate imports of these rare and highly desirable poison dart frogs."


Ok thats Black Jungle what is UE's goal? I know UE offered both P. terribilis around $50+ cheaper then what BJ was offering. I see know they have dropped their price on them now. I went with UE as I planned to as well as quite a few other froggers I know did. Why start out with the inflated price only to have to drop it when people pass....

Think they might have had some takers from the start with the cheaper price. How many passed and went with UE? I would have been pissed buying them for $229 while another was doing the samething for $150 and $189 respectively.....I hope we as a hobby get behind this...Its exactly what the majority has been hoping for lets not let it pass us by.

sent from my Galaxy S lll


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## mydumname

Exactly.....guilt trip for not ordering frogs.....is the real agenda to keep frogs coming in and to help them ....or to make money off their frogs? 

Thought about this when I saw the post earlier today on fb. Definitely a turn off.


----------



## pa.walt

Sherman said:


> Posted on Facebook today:
> "NOT LOOKING GOOD FOLKS! Black Jungles goal to sell 50-100 of Tesoros frogs by October 7th is pitiful. To this date, we have sold ZERO! On September 14th at American Frog Day, Black Jungle announced that we would import sustainable captive bred frogs from Tesoros of Colombia. Richard even offered a presentation at frog day to try to reiterate the importance of supporting the sale of these frogs so that funding for future imports of would not fall by the wayside. If this American importation of rare Colombian frogs is going to happen, then we need pre-orders NOW. If we do not receive the pre-orders, it is presumed there is no true interest in the publics support of this program. This is unfortunate because we finally have our chance to offer long sought after legal and legitimate imports of these rare and highly desirable poison dart frogs."


so this was a black jungle post correct. their higher price might not be high. figure understory is charging x amount. but this is with outshipping and handling. maybe that is why black jungle prices are higher. maybe I am wrong.


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## scoy

pa.walt said:


> so this was a black jungle post correct. their higher price might not be high. figure understory is charging x amount. but this is with outshipping and handling. maybe that is why black jungle prices are higher. maybe I am wrong.


If each frog was shipped seperate. But that only makes sense for one frog out of your order.


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## frogparty

If rather participate in a kick starter than order frogs I don't want. 

Look, some of us don't have frog rooms, and real estate is a premium. I'd love to support them, and guarantee us a crack at histos and lehmannii, but I'm not going to buy frogs I don't care about. 

If tesoros needs $$, lets raise some $$$ and send it to them. Otherwise, I'll have to wait for the Oophaga before I send them any money. At which point I plan to definitely send them a lot of money!!


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## TerraFerma

pa.walt said:


> so this was a black jungle post correct. their higher price might not be high. figure understory is charging x amount. but this is with outshipping and handling. maybe that is why black jungle prices are higher. maybe I am wrong.


Pretty sure (but could be be wrong) the UE quoted prices were for frog arrival direct into the US - so the only additional charge would be S & H from the US receiving site. That said I think some handling charges could have been in the works for the UE stuff...either way its confusing to see BJ quoting X price and UE to be quoting less...even if if handling charges were in the works.

And either way this whole endeavor begs the question...why are they trying to sell low demand frogs before getting to the "good stuff." Very commendable conservation effort (in that it reduces demand for WC frogs...however unpopular/not in demand their current offerings may be) - but them hanging the carrot of lehmani, etc over everyone's head to spur purchases of unwanted frogs to fund other stuff is a little bit fishy...or at least, perhaps not the best business plan.


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## frogparty

Colombia dictates which frogs they are allowed to make available. They are offering what they are legally allowed to offer


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## Dendro Dave

mydumname said:


> Exactly.....guilt trip for not ordering frogs.....is the real agenda to keep frogs coming in and to help them ....or to make money off their frogs?
> 
> Thought about this when I saw the post earlier today on fb. Definitely a turn off.


Well I think they are trying the "Hard sell"... Not one of my favorite tactics personally, but they do have to make some money or at least break even for this to be worth the trouble.

I don't understand why these projects don't make it easier to donate directly. I can't find any Donate links for Tesoros, and the Wikiri donate link takes you to amphibian ark and the Prince Charles stream frog project. Worthy I'm sure, but I'd rather donate to stuff directly relating to dart frogs and dart frog habitat conservation. Starting from Understory's site I eventually found some donation links for C.R.A.R.C. but man they could really streamline/enhance the donation process to make it easier. I don't really like having to hunt down links/people to send my money to. 

CRARC donation link:
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/w...63663d3faee8d0038486cd0d9a2f30f3a21df7b0d0cee

I donate money to Vital ground for Grizzly bear habitat with almost every Ebay purchase, because it is easy and I can do small amounts. *These projects would likely benefit from making donating more accessible*. Understory has a conservation page, then links you can follow but they could could have "donate" buttons right on the front page of their site to the various projects they support, or their own work.

*I did find an Ebay Charity link for Amphibian Ark*. Once you set this up it is really easy to kick a little money their way every time you buy off ebay. Even if it is just a dollar (like I often do with Vital ground), it adds up... especially the more people involved.

*Amphibian Ark - eBay Giving Works
*
Direct donation to Ark...
Contributing Members « Amphibian Ark

(Not frog related but since it came up here is the Vital ground Ebay link and their website.)
The Vital Ground Foundation - eBay Giving Works

Vital Ground - Protecting Land for Bears and other Wildlife
Donate | Vital Ground

*We really need a charity sticky full of good donation links to worthwhile amphibian projects *

(Crap I think I just volunteered myself, but I don't know when I'll get around to it, so if someone wants to step up feel free )



pa.walt said:


> so this was a black jungle post correct. their higher price might not be high. figure understory is charging x amount. but this is with outshipping and handling. maybe that is why black jungle prices are higher. maybe I am wrong.


Did you see some where where blackjungle said shipping was included? I missed it if so... I don't think it is, but correct me if I'm wrong


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## goof901

I have a great solution! Buy the frogs to support them, and send them to me!

Anyways, like Dave said, I think that a donation link would be helpful if they do need the money for more projects.


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## randommind

So...the auratus are "sold out", yet U.E. never listed any as being available and Black Jungle has sold "ZERO" frogs....what am I missing???

For those that have ordered/paid for the D. auratus...Can you please tell me how you went about doing so?


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## Dendro Dave

frogparty said:


> Colombia dictates which frogs they are allowed to make available. They are offering what they are legally allowed to offer


Ya this is a shame because I'm sure people would snap up the lehmanni and histrionica but being forced to use fairly unpopular frogs which actually already exist in the hobby (at least in very similar form) to fund those later efforts is kinda shooting them in the foot.

I can't afford these frogs at the moment, plus I already own green aurotaenia the only frog I'd really be interested in except maybe for some auratus, but I'm guessing the hobby is going to want to keep these separate from the Green aurotaenia already here so these don't help me expand my group even if I could afford them.

I do hope that they manage to become established in the hobby though. Probably doesn't help they are hitting us with this during the Christmas shopping season, unless people are buying frogs as gifts for others. 
*Tax refund season might be better timing. *


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## LizardLicker

frogparty said:


> If rather participate in a kick starter than order frogs I don't want.
> 
> Look, some of us don't have frog rooms, and real estate is a premium. I'd love to support them, and guarantee us a crack at histos and lehmannii, but I'm not going to buy frogs I don't care about.
> 
> If tesoros needs $$, lets raise some $$$ and send it to them. Otherwise, I'll have to wait for the Oophaga before I send them any money. At which point I plan to definitely send them a lot of money!!


I agree with this personally. I really don't have the room for many more frogs. I also doubt I will be willing to pay the price for the more desirable offerings if they ever become available. However, I'd hate to see doors leading to new opportunities close in the hobby. 

I have some froglets growing and many more tads in the water. It was never my intention to become a big-time breeder or to make a lot of money. I keep frogs for the enjoyment of it. I would be happy to donate some of the money to help keep things going. 

The only thing I expect in return is some level of transparency and some organization to help make it easier.


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## HunterB

I want the Terribilis so bad but damn - $200 a piece through Black Jungle :\


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## pa.walt

scoy said:


> If each frog was shipped seperate. But that only makes sense for one frog out of your order.


yeah I didn't think about it until I read your post. but their prices have come down with 10% off I think it was.


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## MarkB

randommind said:


> So...the auratus are "sold out", yet U.E. never listed any as being available and Black Jungle has sold "ZERO" frogs....what am I missing???
> 
> For those that have ordered/paid for the D. auratus...Can you please tell me how you went about doing so?


When Understory released their newsletter releasing the information about what frogs will be exported out of Columbia, I inquired about the Auratus. There was no underground or back door dealings like some people think. It would have been the same dealings as if I was going to buy a group of black foots. There were only 16 that came in to Understory, certainly not enough to maintain the demand but that's what they got.


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## Julio

Aside from that understory has been promoting the frogs for a long time now, I remember asking about them last year, but black jungle made an announcement just prior to frog day


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## TerraFerma

MarkB said:


> When Understory released their newsletter releasing the information about what frogs will be exported out of Columbia, I inquired about the Auratus. There was no underground or back door dealings like some people think. It would have been the same dealings as if I was going to buy a group of black foots. There were only 16 that came in to Understory, certainly not enough to maintain the demand but that's what they got.


So UE already has these frogs at their facility?


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## MarkB

TerraFerma said:


> So UE already has these frogs at their facility?


That's correct. If our schedules worked out I would already have these frogs in my frog room.


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## ecichlid

Can someone explain to me why they think frogs like O. lehmanni would be released from Columbia, even if they are farm raised specimens? Is this something Tesoros has publicly stated they were hoping for?


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## Julio

ecichlid said:


> Can someone explain to me why they think frogs like O. lehmanni would be released from Columbia, even if they are farm raised specimens? Is this something Tesoros has publicly stated they were hoping for?


The tesoro project has been in the works for many years, just like WIKRI and Understory, they breed animals in the country of origin and when they get to a certain generation they are able to get permits for captive bred animals to be exported.


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## Dendro Dave

ecichlid said:


> Can someone explain to me why they think frogs like O. lehmanni would be released from Columbia, even if they are farm raised specimens? Is this something Tesoros has publicly stated they were hoping for?



What Julio said, and they've stated that as their goal. 

It is right here ...
Frogs


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## Azurel

MarkB said:


> That's correct. If our schedules worked out I would already have these frogs in my frog room.


When? From every thing I have read and was told this upcoming shipment is the first. As well as Understory does not actually take possesion of said frogs outside of Indoor ecosystems the US partner....guess I am looking for clearification....Not that it matters I guess in the end.

sent from my Galaxy S lll


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## ecichlid

Dendro Dave said:


> What Julio said, and they've stated that as their goal.
> 
> It is right here ...
> Frogs


 Very cool. Anyone want to guess how much lehmanni will be priced at each? I heard one fellow frogger tell me he would not be surprised if they were $500 each.


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## Julio

Azurel said:


> When? From every thing I have read and was told this upcoming shipment is the first. As well as Understory does not actually take possesion of said frogs outside of Indoor ecosystems the US partner....guess I am looking for clearification....Not that it matters I guess in the end.
> 
> sent from my Galaxy S lll


From my understanding, UE is getting their frogs at the same time as they are coming into the US. So they currently do not have any of the Tesoro frogs.


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## Julio

ecichlid said:


> Very cool. Anyone want to guess how much lehmanni will be priced at each? I heard one fellow frogger tell me he would not be surprised if they were $500 each.


Last tiem i saw them for sale for a wild caught pair was back in 2000, those were a legal import that was being sold by AZA and they were $2500 each, so for legal captive bred frogs, if they are $500, that would be cheap and well worth it. 

A lot of people talk about not spending this amount of money on frogs, but in all reality, you really have to get out on the field and see what the ppl behind these organizations go through to get us a frog in the hobby legally, its really hell at times, so they are more then worth the prices of what they are asking. and you will certainly have a much greater appreciation for the hobby if you get out on a trip.


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## Dendro Dave

ecichlid said:


> Very cool. Anyone want to guess how much lehmanni will be priced at each? I heard one fellow frogger tell me he would not be surprised if they were $500 each.


That would be my guess, though it wouldn't surprise me if they attempted to sell the first offerings for even more, especially if they get some bullseye or red/white sylvatica/histrionica in.


















I like all the red, blue, and/or white ones. Now if someone would just find me a truly Red, white and blue dart frog (ah heck throw in some purple too!) 
...Oh and it should glow, fly, and talk


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## ecichlid

Julio said:


> A lot of people talk about not spending this amount of money on frogs, but in all reality, you really have to get out on the field and see what the ppl behind these organizations go through to get us a frog in the hobby legally, its really hell at times, so they are more then worth the prices of what they are asking. and you will certainly have a much greater appreciation for the hobby if you get out on a trip.


 I'm going to need you to explain this to my wife.


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## Julio

take her on a trip with you and she will let you spend money on frogs, i am sure.


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## Trickishleaf

Just saw this site. I haven't seen some of these pictures. 
More reason to support these guys!

A Multitude of Morphs: Harlequin Dart Frogs : The Featured Creature


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## Firawen

Julio said:


> Last tiem i saw them for sale for a wild caught pair was back in 2000, those were a legal import that was being sold by AZA and they were $2500 each, so for legal captive bred frogs, if they are $500, that would be cheap and well worth it.
> 
> A lot of people talk about not spending this amount of money on frogs, but in all reality, you really have to get out on the field and see what the ppl behind these organizations go through to get us a frog in the hobby legally, its really hell at times, so they are more then worth the prices of what they are asking. and you will certainly have a much greater appreciation for the hobby if you get out on a trip.


The AZA sells/sold animals? I thought they weren't allowed to do that. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2


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## Julio

they didn't sell to the public, but yes they did sell stuff to zoos, i was volunteering at the Bronx Zoo at that time so i got to see what was being offered.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Firawen said:


> The AZA sells/sold animals? I thought they weren't allowed to do that.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2


Incorrect. They generally don't, but in certain rare cases surplus animals, are or donated to the public.


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## MarkB

Julio said:


> From my understanding, UE is getting their frogs at the same time as they are coming into the US. So they currently do not have any of the Tesoro frogs.


Unless Understory is trying to pull a fast one on me(its more likely the world will end tomorrow than this happening) they have the Auratus already. They came in with the black foots.


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## frogfreak

MarkB said:


> Unless Understory is trying to pull a fast one on me(its more likely the world will end tomorrow than this happening) they have the Auratus already. They came in with the black foots.


They have them. They were at the last show here. Gorgeous!


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## Azurel

MarkB said:


> Unless Understory is trying to pull a fast one on me(its more likely the world will end tomorrow than this happening) they have the Auratus already. They came in with the black foots.


I think we know that as fact....maybe they got their own shipment and bought all the auratus available at the time...I know or read they were gonna get some and breed them out as well...

Really want the yellow auratus...not into big frogs but there are a few that are eye catching....

Make sure you share some pictures.

sent from my Galaxy S lll


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## TerraFerma

Well at least one shipment happened (the one to UE...). Unsurprisingly it had the frogs folks wanted most (yellow auratus). I really commend this guy for putting his time and money into this project but it sounds like he has a very poor understanding of the market/end demand. And its risky business, considering that if either the second UE shipment or the BJ shipment go off there could be literally thousands of little black foot terribilis running around on US soil in a years time. No way anyone could have predicted it, but unfortunate timing on the terribilis considering the price for juvie's recently dropped to $50 per...and less...what with people raising hundreds of mints, etc at at time.


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## Azurel

TerraFerma said:


> Well at least one shipment happened (the one to UE...). Unsurprisingly it had the frogs folks wanted most (yellow auratus). I really commend this guy for putting his time and money into this project but it sounds like he has a very poor understanding of the market/end demand. And its risky business, considering that if either the second UE shipment or the BJ shipment go off there could be literally thousands of little black foot terribilis running around on US soil in a years time. No way anyone could have predicted it, but unfortunate timing on the terribilis considering the price for juvie's recently dropped to $50 per...and less...what with people raising hundreds of mints, etc at at time.


Its really not a question of understanding the market. The government gives the permit for said species that allows him to export. So take the truncs for example...They were the first species the government allowed so they were the only ones he could sell and export.

Now he has expanded out with other species...It will be a long while before blackfoot terribilis are $50 or even expanded into the hobby as the other color morphs have been. They have been around a long long time toget where they are at.

From everything I have read about Ivan he is no fool but restricted by laws and regulations of Colombia. 

This project and others like it have been what the hobby has been clammering for, for years. Don't think for one second that if histrionicus or Lehmanni could have been first it wouldn't have been done.

These are cutting edge projects associated with the hobby. When doing new things and breaking ground there is always a chance of failure.


sent from my Galaxy S lll


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## TerraFerma

Azurel said:


> Its really not a question of understanding the market. The government gives the permit for said species that allows him to export. So take the truncs for example...They were the first species the government allowed so they were the only ones he could sell and export.
> 
> Now he has expanded out with other species...It will be a long while before blackfoot terribilis are $50 or even expanded into the hobby as the other color morphs have been. They have been around a long long time to get where they are at.
> 
> From everything I have read about Ivan he is no fool but restricted by laws and regulations of Colombia.
> 
> This project and others like it have been what the hobby has been clammering for, for years. Don't think for one second that if histrionicus or Lehmanni could have been first it wouldn't have been done.
> 
> These are cutting edge projects associated with the hobby. When doing new things and breaking ground there is always a chance of failure.
> 
> 
> sent from my Galaxy S lll


I get the government permit thing. But if the frogs they are permitting don't make economic sense (and we are see are seeing this now), then the whole thing won't work out anyway and there will be no big Oophaga unless someone wants invest in the venture. 

You are probably right on the black foots - but as it stands now anyways there is very limited demand for them at the current price points. I think they are awesome but don't have room right now. And its looking like if someone is given the option of $50 yellow old line vs. theoretical future blackfoot offspring at anything approaching the import prices...then the sale of the blackfoots is going to be difficult. 

Regardless I think the blackfoots are awesome. Kind of sad that more people don't feel that way/have the room/want to spend the money, but it is what it is.


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## skylsdale

TerraFerma said:


> I get the government permit thing. But if the frogs they are permitting don't make economic sense (and we are see are seeing this now), then the whole thing won't work out anyway and there will be no big Oophaga unless someone wants invest in the venture.


One of the downfalls of this hobby is its severe short-sightedness. Everyone seems to be upset that they are being asked to invest in something. 

Also, Ivan was informed that there was a big interest in locale-specific and LEGAL Colombian frogs in the hobby (if I remember correctly, all Colombian frogs currently in the hobby--including those 'hundreds of terribilis'--are of dubious, if not outright illegal, origins). The reality was that when they were actually made available, no one purchased any. 

The hobby is a fickle beast and never seems to be happy with what it has, always wanting more or the next best thing.


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## Dendro Dave

TerraFerma said:


> I get the government permit thing. But if the frogs they are permitting don't make economic sense (and we are see are seeing this now), then the whole thing won't work out anyway and there will be no big Oophaga unless someone wants invest in the venture.
> 
> You are probably right on the black foots - but as it stands now anyways there is very limited demand for them at the current price points. I think they are awesome but don't have room right now. And its looking like if someone is given the option of $50 yellow old line vs. theoretical future blackfoot offspring at anything approaching the import prices...then the sale of the blackfoots is going to be difficult.
> 
> Regardless I think the blackfoots are awesome. Kind of sad that more people don't feel that way/have the room/want to spend the money, but it is what it is.


Well he has to work with what he is allowed. Either that or just quit the project which I doubt they'll do if at all avoidable. Hopefully they've planned for this a bit, and I suspect that if it becomes necessary they will lower prices and take a hit on these less in demand frogs in order to keep money coming in and insure they get at least one shot at the lehmanni and histrionica export.

I wouldn't be surprised if the lehmanni and histrionica are there right now waiting for the green light. They may not yet have the numbers they'd like, but I bet they are well on their way and if it takes begging, borrowing, and scraping they'll try to release them when the green light comes.

Tesoros really needs a donate button. Hell I'm broke but I'd send a few bucks their way to help insure lehmanni and histrionica come our way. I got a job interview thursday so maybe some day I'll actually be able to afford them


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## Dendro Dave

skylsdale said:


> One of the downfalls of this hobby is its severe short-sightedness. Everyone seems to be upset that they are being asked to invest in something.
> 
> Also, Ivan was informed that there was a big interest in locale-specific and LEGAL Colombian frogs in the hobby (if I remember correctly, all Colombian frogs currently in the hobby--including those 'hundreds of terribilis'--are of dubious, if not outright illegal, origins). The reality was that when they were actually made available, no one purchased any.
> 
> The hobby is a fickle beast and never seems to be happy with what it has, always wanting more or the next best thing.


I think it is the amount they are asking us to invest. You're basically talking $350+ dollars for an order or 4 truncs and shipping. That is a pretty big chunk of change for many of us, especially with Christmas coming, and figuring roughly $70 of whatever our total is goes to fedex and not UE/BJ or Tesoros


*Someone who knows Mark *well, ought to *get him to get a donate button for tesoros on both sites* and then let us all know about it here and we could try to guilt everyone who can't afford frogs into donating a little cash


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## skylsdale

A donate button could be good...but that would require that Tesoros be a non-profit entity. I'm not sure if they are or not. I assume UE is a business...I would assume that Tesoros is a business...given that, they cannot just accept face-value money/donations. They would have to provide a product in exchange for that monetary transaction.


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## JoshsDragonz

I agree with those above who have suggested a way to donate. In my case my collection is reaching the max that I want to keep. I would love some of my final additions to be histos or lehmanni. I just don't have the room nor interest to house most of the frogs listed currently. The only two that I do have a little interest in are the black foot terribilis and the yellow auratus, but I still don't know if I would want them in my collection. 

I believe more people would be willing to donate some money vs buying frogs they don't really want for the chance to get the more desirable stuff. I sure know I would!


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## Dendro Dave

skylsdale said:


> A donate button could be good...but that would require that Tesoros be a non-profit entity. I'm not sure if they are or not. I assume UE is a business...I would assume that Tesoros is a business...given that, they cannot just accept face-value money/donations. They would have to provide a product in exchange for that monetary transaction.


You may be right... I wondered about that, but I know I've seen people who sell some stuff on their website also have a donate button to help them out in general. I've seen that on some maker community arduino sites I think. I don't know if it is legal or not, and they might not have been incorporated.

Oh but this is a Colombian venture so our laws may not apply to what they can do down there.

You know what *they might be able to* do is *start an Indiegogo campaign* and do the option that allows you to keep all the funds donated even if the goal isn't met like i did (And failed miserably) with the dryad viv project  ...Or they could just try to do a Kickstarter. I think Indiegogo is much looser on what they allow you to do though.


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## JoshsDragonz

If they can't accept direct donations... Why not sell say raffle tickets. Put up a pair of histos and lehmanni and let people buy a chance to win a pair. That would raise money for them and give us a way to donate essentially. Plus a bonus to a few people who would win. I'm not sure if this would satisfy the legal side of things, but it's a thought.


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## Dendro Dave

JoshsDragonz said:


> If they can't accept direct donations... Why not sell say raffle tickets. Put up a pair of histos and lehmanni and let people buy a chance to win a pair. That would raise money for them and give us a way to donate essentially. Plus a bonus to a few people who would win. I'm not sure if this would satisfy the legal side of things, but it's a thought.


Ya that sounds like an option. Heck they could even do truncs, auratus, or aurotaenia if they want to maximize profit and we are all in on the "real purpose" 

Oh I did send Tesoros an email asking about a donate button earlier tonight. I'll let you all know If I hear anything back.


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## JoshsDragonz

Well I guess raffling histos and lehmanni wouldn't work being that they aren't available... But the concept is the same with the ones they are offering... I would still do it for the ones available.


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## Sherman

I am in the process of trying to figure out a way to do direct donations. I have reached out to Ivan on a couple of different platforms, no response yet. (He is a very busy guy.)

Would anyone be willing to buy Tesoros stickers of I had a way to print them up?
I think I would want $20 per sticker to make this worth my time to produce them and ship them out. (I dont want to send 100 stickers out to just raise $100.00) That is a product that I could create to sell for them. All of the profits would go to Tesoros. That is all I can think of for a reasonably priced product.


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## Azurel

Sherman said:


> I am in the process of trying to figure out a way to do direct donations. I have reached out to Ivan on a couple of different platforms, no response yet. (He is a very busy guy.)
> 
> Would anyone be willing to buy Tesoros stickers of I had a way to print them up?
> I think I would want $20 per sticker to make this worth my time to produce them and ship them out. (I dont want to send 100 stickers out to just raise $100.00) That is a product that I could create to sell for them. All of the profits would go to Tesoros. That is all I can think of for a reasonably priced product.



I would be down with that....

sent from my Galaxy S lll


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## JoshsDragonz

You could put me down for a sticker.


----------



## mydumname

Dendro Dave said:


> and we could try to guilt everyone who can't afford frogs into donating a little cash


No more guilt, haha.





skylsdale said:


> They would have to provide a product in exchange for that monetary transaction.


Is that true? How do services get money when they don't provide a product? Anything can be construed as a service to someone. If you want to call it something...call it income for "being awesome." A for profit business can take donations...it is just going to be reportable income and no tax benefit to the donator. 

But if they want to provide something....how about T-Shirts? Cheap, easy, and can make a minimum cost to the shirt with no maximum....pay what you want for it.

Expectations for someone to drop hundreds on frogs they don't really want isn't fair. Especially considering most people won't even be buying these $500 frogs that may or may not come in. A huge portion of the hobby will not want to or be able to drop that kind of money. I would imagine some may donate something if they aren't being required to only support by purchasing frogs.


----------



## LizardLicker

mydumname said:


> No more guilt, haha.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that true? How do services get money when they don't provide a product? Anything can be construed as a service to someone. If you want to call it something...call it income for "being awesome." A for profit business can take donations...it is just going to be reportable income and no tax benefit to the donator.
> 
> But if they want to provide something....how about T-Shirts? Cheap, easy, and can make a minimum cost to the shirt with no maximum....pay what you want for it.
> 
> Expectations for someone to drop hundreds on frogs they don't really want isn't fair. Especially considering most people won't even be buying these $500 frogs that may or may not come in. A huge portion of the hobby will not want to or be able to drop that kind of money. I would imagine some may donate something if they aren't being required to only support by purchasing frogs.


This is basically where I am at. I just don't have the room for a lot of frog tanks. I keep frogs for the enjoyment of it. I really don't have a desire to have room with 100 frog enclosures in it. All of my tanks are display tanks which I keep around my desk. The enjoyment I get is being able to sit here and look at them all... Not having a breeding pair tucked into a corner somewhere. 

There is also very little chance I would ever spend that much money on a single frog like the histos. I am not saying they aren't worth it (although "worth" is very subjective), and I'm not saying I can't afford 500-1,000 on a single frog. It just isn't something I would be typically willing to do. 

It is a shame that they can't legally take donations. I have seen several businesses do it. I guess they don't know it is illegal. I'm definitely no expert on business law. 

I would be willing to buy a sticker or t-shirt definitely even though I most likely won't buy any of the frogs currently or in the future. Like I said, I feel a responsibility to help keep doors in the hobby open. However, I would probably be able to give more money overall if I was able to do it as I got it. For example, whenever I have a frog that I could sell... In a few weeks or next year. Stickers and t-shirts seem more like a limited window. It is better than nothing though.


----------



## Dendro Dave

LizardLicker said:


> This is basically where I am at. I just don't have the room for a lot of frog tanks. I keep frogs for the enjoyment of it. I really don't have a desire to have room with 100 frog enclosures in it. All of my tanks are display tanks which I keep around my desk. The enjoyment I get is being able to sit here and look at them all... Not having a breeding pair tucked into a corner somewhere.
> 
> There is also very little chance I would ever spend that much money on a single frog like the histos. I am not saying they aren't worth it (although "worth" is very subjective), and I'm not saying I can't afford 500-1,000 on a single frog. It just isn't something I would be typically willing to do.
> 
> It is a shame that they can't legally take donations. I have seen several businesses do it. I guess they don't know it is illegal. I'm definitely no expert on business law.
> 
> I would be willing to buy a sticker or t-shirt definitely even though I most likely won't buy any of the frogs currently or in the future. Like I said, I feel a responsibility to help keep doors in the hobby open. However, I would probably be able to give more money overall if I was able to do it as I got it. For example, whenever I have a frog that I could sell... In a few weeks or next year. Stickers and t-shirts seem more like a limited window. It is better than nothing though.


Seeing as they are based in Colombia I don't think we know that for sure... There laws may be different, and even if there is a law my understand is things uh... Shall we say? ... work a little differently down there  So there may be some wiggle room. Paypal may have rules against it, but perhaps there are other options, and then there is the whole crowd funding angle too.

I also won't be getting any frogs from them this year probably, maybe next if the job interview works out, but I'd kick a few bucks their way. Plus I assume they are buying land down there? ...So they are conserving habitat, and that is good for the frogs, and if it benefits the hobby too that is good for us, so a worthy cause in that case IMO even if you aren't planning on getting frogs from them anytime soon.


----------



## Sherman

I received word from Ivan today. He is working on a "Donate" button for his website, but it will take about a month. In the meantime he might use his friends PayPal account, but he is waiting on permission.
I have asked him if I could create and sell t-shirts and stickers on his behalf. If anyone has some slick graphic arts skills and wants to whip up a design that incorporates the Tesoros logo, that would help me get moving. Ivan would have final say on the design, and the job would pay squat.
I will keep you all posted if any of this comes to life.
Thank you,
Chris


----------



## JJuchems

Sherman said:


> I received word from Ivan today. He is working on a "Donate" button for his website, but it will take about a month. In the meantime he might use his friends PayPal account, but he is waiting on permission.
> I have asked him if I could create and sell t-shirts and stickers on his behalf. If anyone has some slick graphic arts skills and wants to whip up a design that incorporates the Tesoros logo, that would help me get moving. Ivan would have final say on the design, and the job would pay squat.
> I will keep you all posted if any of this comes to life.
> Thank you,
> Chris


Chris I actually said the same thing to him about merchandise and recommended Cafepress.com if he can do it from Colombia. While the profit is not as great, he would have zero overhead, expense, and man power outside of uploading his logo and choosing merchandise to sell.


----------



## srrrio

It seems to me another advantage of supporting Tesoros would be, if down the road , it becomes highly successful, it could spur other in country breeding programs for export. It would be a pretty cool thing if our kids had a myriad of import companies to choose their frogs from and those frogs were all sustainable and helped support the people living in those countries. 

A girl can dream, and figure out how best to put her money where her mouth is!


----------



## Dendro Dave

Sherman said:


> I received word from Ivan today. He is working on a "Donate" button for his website, but it will take about a month. In the meantime he might use his friends PayPal account, but he is waiting on permission.
> I have asked him if I could create and sell t-shirts and stickers on his behalf. If anyone has some slick graphic arts skills and wants to whip up a design that incorporates the Tesoros logo, that would help me get moving. Ivan would have final say on the design, and the job would pay squat.
> I will keep you all posted if any of this comes to life.
> Thank you,
> Chris


I got a similar email back, so not much to add. 

The donate feature sounds like it is going to be rather expensive so we need to take advantage of it as much as possible to make sure it pays for itself plus some. Hopefully he'll be able to arrange something with his friend or someone else to cut down on overhead.

I suggested an indiegogo campaign and tried to send some encouragement his way  I forgot to ask what if anything he has going with EU and/or Japan exports. If he can get permits for those countries and find good contacts to help distribute the frogs that may help him out if he hasn't already gone down those avenues. 

I'll see if I can get some info on that if he relpies back again. I'm not at all plugged into the EU/Japan scene so maybe if someone has some good contacts overseas they could contact Ivan/Tesoros and inquire/arrange something to expand his market if possible. The frogs that we already have here and/or aren't that popular may find more of a market across the pond.

Oh, once donate/fundraising options appear we'll need everyone to spread the word over facebook and other social media. That is something most of us can at least attempt even if we don't have much money. Doesn't cost anything to "share". I'd play up the habitat conservation/indigenous economic growth aspects to your non frogger friends


----------



## skylsdale

Something else to keep in mind: given the cost to run the facility, utilities, possible taxes on owning the property that is being conserved/rehabilitated...the monthly funds needed to keep an operation like Tesoros running is most likely several thousand dollars (I would imagine maybe in the $6k-10k range). Selling stickers and t-shirts is a great show of support, but does not go very far when you're looking at that sort of income requirement. Selling frogs is the best and most viable way to bring in the money required to keep an operation like this open. And after people buy their t-shirt or handful of stickers...then what? Will they purchase more each month? Otherwise Ivan gets a small injection of money one time, and then funds trickle away.

Kickstarter and other similar options are great ideas as well...but again, those are just one time opportunities and have a specified limited window of time and are best served for projects that have a specified ending date. They serve as a one-time punch of money. If the goal of a venture is long-term sustainability, things like Kickstarter don't really help in that sort of business model.

None of this is to punch holes in the obvious good will of people that want to help out in the situation, but being aware of the actual logistics involved and required for such an operation is key if we want to provide help that is of substantial benefit to the venture.


----------



## JeremyHuff

I have been in touch with Ivan and received his wholesale list. I think if he really wants to move stuff like truncatus and phyllobates out quickly, he needs to lower prices quite a bit and contact strictly reptiles or bushmaster and look to move several hundred frogs at a time. Maybe even petsmart or petco. Another option is a lower price for a younger animal.


----------



## Dendro Dave

skylsdale said:


> Something else to keep in mind: given the cost to run the facility, utilities, possible taxes on owning the property that is being conserved/rehabilitated...the monthly funds needed to keep an operation like Tesoros running is most likely several thousand dollars (I would imagine maybe in the $6k-10k range). Selling stickers and t-shirts is a great show of support, but does not go very far when you're looking at that sort of income requirement. Selling frogs is the best and most viable way to bring in the money required to keep an operation like this open. And after people buy their t-shirt or handful of stickers...then what? Will they purchase more each month? Otherwise Ivan gets a small injection of money one time, and then funds trickle away.
> 
> Kickstarter and other similar options are great ideas as well...but again, those are just one time opportunities and have a specified limited window of time and are best served for projects that have a specified ending date. They serve as a one-time punch of money. If the goal of a venture is long-term sustainability, things like Kickstarter don't really help in that sort of business model.
> 
> None of this is to punch holes in the obvious good will of people that want to help out in the situation, but being aware of the actual logistics involved and required for such an operation is key if we want to provide help that is of substantial benefit to the venture.


Those are good points, but at least it is something. We should all try to keep this project in our thoughts over the coming months; there's no rule that you can only donate once  

Maybe spread some of that Christmas money from grandma around, and then tax refund season is a few months away when some of us will be flush with a little extra cash for donations and/or frog purchases.


----------



## skylsdale

JeremyHuff said:


> I have been in touch with Ivan and received his wholesale list. I think if he really wants to move stuff like truncatus and phyllobates out quickly, he needs to lower prices quite a bit and contact strictly reptiles or bushmaster and look to move several hundred frogs at a time. Maybe even petsmart or petco. Another option is a lower price for a younger animal.


I think this is a very good point, and something for the hobby at-large to consider as well...although many Dendrobatid hobbyists tend to cringe at the idea. However, to help prevent over saturation within the hobby, being willing to wholesale frogs into the larger herp market could be an effective way of doing so. Of course, not breeding animals all the time (i.e. year-round at their maximum possible capacity) helps as well.


----------



## LizardLicker

skylsdale said:


> Something else to keep in mind: given the cost to run the facility, utilities, possible taxes on owning the property that is being conserved/rehabilitated...the monthly funds needed to keep an operation like Tesoros running is most likely several thousand dollars (I would imagine maybe in the $6k-10k range). Selling stickers and t-shirts is a great show of support, but does not go very far when you're looking at that sort of income requirement. Selling frogs is the best and most viable way to bring in the money required to keep an operation like this open. And after people buy their t-shirt or handful of stickers...then what? Will they purchase more each month? Otherwise Ivan gets a small injection of money one time, and then funds trickle away.
> 
> Kickstarter and other similar options are great ideas as well...but again, those are just one time opportunities and have a specified limited window of time and are best served for projects that have a specified ending date. They serve as a one-time punch of money. If the goal of a venture is long-term sustainability, things like Kickstarter don't really help in that sort of business model.
> 
> None of this is to punch holes in the obvious good will of people that want to help out in the situation, but being aware of the actual logistics involved and required for such an operation is key if we want to provide help that is of substantial benefit to the venture.


For me, a t-shirt/sticker would hopefully just be the first step. Buying frogs is simply not a realistic choice for someone like me. I simply do not have the room. 

I would hope I would be able to donate a little bit as I get it. Like I said, I am not in this hobby to make money. I would be more than happy to donate a portion of anything I make selling a frog to help keep projects like this going. 

How much? For how long? I really have no idea to be honest. I do know that it does me no good to buy a frog when I have no place to house it.


----------



## markpulawski

Seeing as how some of these frogs are so imperilled I wonder if Ivan looked in to charitable groups that are animal foundations to help support his efforts. I thought INIBICO was sponsored by the World bank at one time. I wonder if WIKIRI and CRARC are all privately financed?


----------



## VenomR00

World bank = bad >.< I would have difficulty supporting him if he went through them. I would rather see the community help him rather then going that route.


----------



## LizardLicker

If someone is willing to step up to the plate with me I would be willing to fund half the cost of a pair, or trio, of truncatus to give away to a member who has the room for them. Or maybe a pair or trio of aurotaenia (depending on the final cost of everything). 

We could give them away in some sort of a contest. I am not rich though so it would be nice for one or two people to help me out. All I know is that I don't have room for them currently.


----------



## JJuchems

JeremyHuff said:


> I have been in touch with Ivan and received his wholesale list. I think if he really wants to move stuff like truncatus and phyllobates out quickly, he needs to lower prices quite a bit and contact strictly reptiles or bushmaster and look to move several hundred frogs at a time. Maybe even petsmart or petco. Another option is a lower price for a younger animal.


Just because he lowers his price, does not mean prices will go down on the consumer. Increasing vendors will be key for this to happen. There is already a difference between the two vendors in pricing.


----------



## JeremyHuff

JJuchems said:


> Just because he lowers his price, does not mean prices will go down on the consumer. Increasing vendors will be key for this to happen. There is already a difference between the two vendors in pricing.


I am not suggesting they will be cheaper. I think the wholesale prices are too high and I doubt a big importer will pay them. What Ivan needs is to move stock. The quickest way is to lower the prices and go to a big importer.


----------



## frogparty

Look, we all know the ultimate big $$ is in the obligates. They will be snapped up instantly, especially if they can supply more than one morph at a time. Word around the campfire is that several well known froggers are ready to drop 10k each on new obligate frog projects. Thats a lot of cash for not many frogs. AT 600 TO 1000 a pair, income generated will be rapid. Its just getting to that point that hurts. 

I think wholesaling of frogs like auratus, truncata etc would be a very smart move, as it would provide a rapid cash turnaround that keeps businesses open. 

Once the obligates make it on the scene, you can generate the same capital with far fewer frogs. BUT...with a lock in to larger wholesale operations, you can still count on the income from the wholesale distribution of the non obligates.


----------



## JJuchems

JeremyHuff said:


> I am not suggesting they will be cheaper. I think the wholesale prices are too high and I doubt a big importer will pay them. What Ivan needs is to move stock. The quickest way is to lower the prices and go to a big importer.


My thinking is I don't see many people buying them from the wholesaler/imports when the price will still be similar to what they are now. The import wholesalers are looking for a profit to and I don't see them jumping on them when someone is already complaining about lack of sales. 

I do get your point, Ivan need an influx of cash at a steady rate until the obligates become available. He needs to move overhead, this is one of the few industries that the overhead has a daily cost to maintain.


----------



## Tincman

Dendro Dave said:


> I think it is the amount they are asking us to invest. You're basically talking $350+ dollars for an order or 4 truncs and shipping. That is a pretty big chunk of change for many of us, especially with Christmas coming, and figuring roughly $70 of whatever our total is goes to fedex and not UE/BJ or Tesoros
> 
> 
> *Someone who knows Mark *well, ought to *get him to get a donate button for tesoros on both sites* and then let us all know about it here and we could try to guilt everyone who can't afford frogs into donating a little cash


I was suggesting this as well.... "A donate button" would really work, but it seems they need to move frogs....I feel the way you do though, BEtter to get 30-50 bucks from 100 plus people then a few people buy 600-1000 dollar small breeding groups of frogs they may not even be looking for.


----------



## Sherman

Hello all,

This is just a friendly reminder that today is the last day to place an order for these new frogs from Understory Enterprises.

P. terribilis: Black-footed Orange $185, Black-footed Yellow $150.
P. aurotaenia: Yellow Narrow-banded $80, Green $75.
D. truncates: Nilo $60

Plus a $15 box fee and shipping.*

*New England froggers can bundle their frogs with mine and not pay shipping. Dead-line 2PM today.


----------



## thedude

Just out of curiosity, what is everyone getting? Seems as though the orange terribilis are in high demand but nothing else is. Not even the yellow terribilis.

I'm getting a few yellow aurotaenia.


----------



## LizardLicker

I bought a couple of the green aurotaenia that hopefully somebody will enjoy.


----------



## Tincman

I ordered a group of Yellow Terribilis...


----------



## HunterB

I desperately want a group of six of those yellow terribilis but at that price... :\


----------



## Tincman

HunterB said:


> I desperately want a group of six of those yellow terribilis but at that price... :\


I felt it was high as well, they are charging for all of the paperwork time & shipping fees & Resoures that go into getting the frogs legally onto our soil...Also its new blood as well which kind of brings some new excitement to the species...I looked at it like I was Half buying the frogs & the other half was a donation to the farm(that made it easier to swallow I guess!lol).. Understory is selling the Yellows at 150... I was fortunate to have a local Friend buying frogs as well & we split shipping also. 
Black Jungle has new group pricing that is comparable also on them as well..


----------



## traveler13

These terribilis are different then current ones. They have black feet. I am not planning on mixing mine with any of the ones I have now.


----------



## Dendro Dave

traveler13 said:


> These terribilis are different then current ones. They have black feet. I am not planning on mixing mine with any of the ones I have now.


I assume everyone will be keeping the aurotaenia separate from our lines already here too, right?


----------



## ForbiddenFrogs

So who ordered some of the Paru I myself did also 3 orange black foot and 3 camo auratus, so stoked can wait to get them


----------



## Firawen

ForbiddenFrogs said:


> So who ordered some of the Paru I myself did also 3 orange black foot and 3 camo auratus, so stoked can wait to get them


I heard that after this year there won't be anymore Paru coming from them. Does UE breed them?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk now Free


----------



## Dendro Dave

Firawen said:


> I heard that after this year there won't be anymore Paru coming from them. Does UE breed them?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk now Free


I don't know for sure, but I think they keep at least a few of anything new to try and breed. I'd be real surprised if they didn't keep some Paru.

So sorry if this is a stupid question (and I assume the answer is yes from the talk), but just to be clear did the Paru come from tesoros? The particular colors that have come in mostly don't really grab me so I haven't been paying much attention to them and the info on them.


----------



## Spaff

Firawen said:


> I heard that after this year there won't be anymore Paru coming from them. Does UE breed them?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk now Free


I think they're coming in until next summer.


----------



## JJuchems

Dendro Dave said:


> I don't know for sure, but I think they keep at least a few of anything new to try and breed. I'd be real surprised if they didn't keep some Paru.
> 
> So sorry if this is a stupid question (and I assume the answer is yes from the talk), but just to be clear did the Paru come from tesoros? The particular colors that have come in mostly don't really grab me so I haven't been paying much attention to them and the info on them.


Paru are from Wikiri in Ecuador and they plan on stopping export in the Summer of 2014. They stated in their Update on Facebook that they have some juveniles for $450 and UE has limited adults for $500. All US orders will be imported directly by Indoor Ecosystems and orders handled by UE. 

Tesoros de Colombia is hoping to release Oophaga lehmanni and histrionica pending permits.


----------



## Dendro Dave

JJuchems said:


> Paru are from Wikiri in Ecuador and they plan on stopping export in the Summer of 2014. They stated in their Update that they have some Juveniles for $450 and UE has limited adults for $500. All US orders will be imported directly by Indoor Ecosystems and orders handled by UE.
> 
> Tesoros de Colombia is hoping to release Oophaga lehmanni and histrionica pending permits.


Thanks Jason for clearing up my confusion


----------



## Baltimore Bryan

JJuchems said:


> Paru are from Wikiri in Ecuador and they plan on stopping export in the Summer of 2014. They stated in their Update on Facebook that they have some juveniles for $450 and UE has limited adults for $500. All US orders will be imported directly by Indoor Ecosystems and orders handled by UE.
> 
> Tesoros de Colombia is hoping to release Oophaga lehmanni and histrionica pending permits.


I don't want to side track this thread, but do you know if WIKIRI will stop importing all frogs, or just the Paru and they will still work with other Oophaga and other frogs?
And very excited about the potential for lehmanni and histrionica, hoping for the permits to be cleared!
Bryan


----------



## JJuchems

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I don't want to side track this thread, but do you know if WIKIRI will stop importing all frogs, or just the Paru and they will still work with other Oophaga and other frogs?


Only the O. sylvatica and the new set-up has no USA orders going to Canada first, but directly to Indoor Ecosystems. So the other frogs they are currently working with will still be imported. I am not sure if they will release any other Oophaga species. 



Baltimore Bryan said:


> And very excited about the potential for lehmanni and histrionica, hoping for the permits to be cleared!
> Bryan


It is more than just the permits, as stated earlier in this thread. Ivan has come close to closing and has a living inventory that must be maintained. Hopefully we can get some ways to increase his cash flow by possibly purchasing merchandise and donations.

The process of getting Oophaga lehmanni and histrionica to the market is just more added expense with permits and attorney fees. Plus they have to be at a semi reasonable amount to be able to sell in the current economic climate. There are a lot of factors before they make it.


----------



## thedude

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I don't want to side track this thread, but do you know if WIKIRI will stop importing all frogs, or just the Paru and they will still work with other Oophaga and other frogs?
> And very excited about the potential for lehmanni and histrionica, hoping for the permits to be cleared!
> Bryan


They have other populations to release. I had originally heard they were going to release a new one every 18 months but the economy probably decreased the amount they sold. I have a feeling the next ones will sell a lot better.


----------



## Dendroguy

Anybody see the lehmanni tad on their Facebook?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Dendroguy said:


> Anybody see the lehmanni tad on their Facebook?


That isn't a lehmani tad. It's one of the gold/yellow Auratus.


----------



## Dendroguy

ZookeeperDoug said:


> That isn't a lehmani tad. It's one of the gold/yellow Auratus.


Ah, thanks. Thats an interesting specimen.

D


----------



## Sherman

That tadpole is an _O. lehmanni_.


----------



## Dendroguy

Awesoooooooome.

D


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

So Tesoros finally got back to me and confirmed that it is indeed an O. lehmani. It seems I was misinformed. Someone I would ordinarily trust to know told me otherwise, so I apologize for the misinformation.


----------



## frogparty

easy to get confused. That lehmannii has no white feet like most do


----------



## frogparty

I hope the first lehmannii offered are not the yellow/black.

Was hoping for the red/black with silver white feet..


Beggars cannot be choosers I guess


----------



## frogparty

https://www.google.com/search?q=oop...frog.tk%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dlehmanni;640;480

Like this one


----------



## Azurel

frogparty said:


> I hope the first lehmannii offered are not the yellow/black.
> 
> Was hoping for the red/black with silver white feet..
> 
> 
> Beggars cannot be choosers I guess


From what I have read the yellow will be the one released....The red band from what I have been reading has become quite rare in the wild.

sent from my Galaxy S lll


----------



## Julio

frogparty said:


> I hope the first lehmannii offered are not the yellow/black.
> 
> Was hoping for the red/black with silver white feet..
> 
> 
> Beggars cannot be choosers I guess


The red morph has been pretty much wiped out in the wild, but hopefully Tesoro was able to save a few to start a captive program


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

The thing is I wasn't confused, I thought O. lehmani too, and had basically the exact same reaction as dendroguy when I saw it on Facebook but was told with some authority it wasn't, couldn't be and that they'd verified it was an Auratus. Obviously I know that to be false now. I was simply misinformed and will take that source of information with more skepticism in the future. 

I am excited as well to know at least one of the morphs of O. lehmani that they're working with.

I was also hoping more for the white footed reds. Oh well.


----------



## Julio

The white on the feet is a determining factor, there lehmani that have no white on the feet whatsoever


----------



## Spaff

Based on the picture posted on Tesoros's fb, the wide banded yellow morph has just a tiny bit of white on the toe region.


----------



## hypostatic

Julio said:


> The red morph has been pretty much wiped out in the wild, but hopefully Tesoro was able to save a few to start a captive program


Wow, if true this would be incredibly sad. I'd hope that some could be sent to zoos to preserve the morphs. Would zoos be able to facilitate this?


----------



## thedude

Spaff said:


> Based on the picture posted on Tesoros's fb, the wide banded yellow morph has just a tiny bit of white on the toe region.


You can't draw a conclusion from 2 pictures. I've seen quite a few pictures of yellow lehmanni that came in years ago that did have the white toes.

Also, I've been told they aren't working with the reds unfortunately.


----------



## Spaff

thedude said:


> You can't draw a conclusion from 2 pictures. I've seen quite a few pictures of yellow lehmanni that came in years ago that did have the white toes.
> 
> Also, I've been told they aren't working with the reds unfortunately.


I know. I was mentioning that they did have some white on their feet, even though it appeared to be none or very little. I'm sure the small amount of white present on that frog is just due to individual variation, and some individuals have more and some less.


----------



## markpulawski

The yellow ones definitely have white on their toes, some more some less. The frogs that did not have white on their toes that come up in Lehmanni discussion are the frogs near Anchicaya some thought were hybrids, most of those are yellow.


----------



## whitethumb

i wonder if they're working with the orange morph?


----------



## Julio

whitethumb said:


> i wonder if they're working with the orange morph?


The so called orange morph is just whatever was left from the red population that winded up crossing with the yellow as habitats destruction forced them to move together


----------



## Sherman

hypostatic said:


> Wow, if true this would be incredibly sad. I'd hope that some could be sent to zoos to preserve the morphs. Would zoos be able to facilitate this?


The problem is being caused by overcollection. Collecting more should not be part of the solution. The habitat is intact, if they are left alone, they should rebound. I agree with preserving the morph, but would like to see it done in the wild, not glass boxes.


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## hypostatic

Who is collecting all of them? Europeans?

I disagree with this. If the problem is overcollection, then the most sensible (and realistic) thing to do is for an institution like a zoo to try to preserve what they can. Especially if the population is small or not densely populated. These types of populations are extremely susceptible to things like short droughts or disease outbreaks (like chytrid) that wouldn't be as bothersome to a large population. Small populations are notorious for being extremely unstable. Human impact such as climate change (and apparently collection) isn't going to end anytime soon, so why not protect what we can? Although a slightly different scenario, this worked pretty well from what I understand for the golden spray toad.

Anyway, this is just my opinion, and I wanted to state it. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, and I'm not trying to start an argument or debate about it. Especially since nothing can be done about the subject from my keyboard lol


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## Sherman

hypostatic said:


> Who is collecting all of them? Europeans?
> 
> I disagree with this. If the problem is overcollection, then the most sensible (and realistic) thing to do is for an institution like a zoo to try to preserve what they can. Especially if the population is small or not densely populated. These types of populations are extremely susceptible to things like short droughts or disease outbreaks (like chytrid) that wouldn't be as bothersome to a large population. Small populations are notorious for being extremely unstable. Human impact such as climate change (and apparently collection) isn't going to end anytime soon, so why not protect what we can? Although a slightly different scenario, this worked pretty well from what I understand for the golden spray toad.
> 
> Anyway, this is just my opinion, and I wanted to state it. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, and I'm not trying to start an argument or debate about it. Especially since nothing can be done about the subject from my keyboard lol


A better solution would be something like Amphibian Ark getting involved. An in-situ breeding operation, with proper biosecurity protocols, would be one of the best ways to preserve them for reintroduction.
Assuming that when you stated "protect them" you meant protect the wild population and did not mean to "protect them" for eventual availability in the hobby.
Although Tesoros does good work, breeding for reintroduction is beyond their scope. This is a good conversation, but respectfully, perhaps is better suited for its own thread.
2 cents.


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## pa.walt

does anyone have any info on how many of the "new" frogs that will be coming in next year. I tried to get the "new" auratus and they were sold out. come to find they didn't have many to sell anyway. I read with the other ones they had a couple of hundred. also I hope people don't hoard them like buy 10 at a time for one person.


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## frogparty

thats exactly whats going to happen. 

Good for tesoro. Theyll sell out fast, and the people who didnt act quickly will have to wait till the next round of availability. Meanwhile, the people who got the 1st round might even get some froglets before the next round is available.


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## TerraFerma

hypostatic said:


> Who is collecting all of them? Europeans?
> 
> I disagree with this. If the problem is overcollection, then the most sensible (and realistic) thing to do is for an institution like a zoo to try to preserve what they can. Especially if the population is small or not densely populated. These types of populations are extremely susceptible to things like short droughts or disease outbreaks (like chytrid) that wouldn't be as bothersome to a large population. Small populations are notorious for being extremely unstable. Human impact such as climate change (and apparently collection) isn't going to end anytime soon, so why not protect what we can? Although a slightly different scenario, this worked pretty well from what I understand for the golden spray toad.
> 
> Anyway, this is just my opinion, and I wanted to state it. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, and I'm not trying to start an argument or debate about it. Especially since nothing can be done about the subject from my keyboard lol


There are many, many creatures near extinction that could use some help. Not to minimize red lehmanii, but there is a lot of stuff that could use help, and not enough money to go around to save everything.


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## Sherman

pa.walt said:


> does anyone have any info on how many of the "new" frogs that will be coming in next year. I tried to get the "new" auratus and they were sold out. come to find they didn't have many to sell anyway. I read with the other ones they had a couple of hundred. also I hope people don't hoard them like buy 10 at a time for one person.


I think they will plan on having these available for a while. Understory Enterprises is making room in their facility to increase the supply of these frogs and to allow room in the Colombian facility for different species. These frogs should be available steadily. 


frogparty said:


> thats exactly whats going to happen.
> 
> Good for tesoro. Theyll sell out fast, and the people who didnt act quickly will have to wait till the next round of availability. Meanwhile, the people who got the 1st round might even get some froglets before the next round is available.


Keep in mind that Understory Enterprises will donate 50% of the money directly back to Tesoros.


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## Gamble

pa.walt said:


> I hope people don't hoard them like buy 10 at a time for one person.


From what I am understanding, there are a handful of people who already plan on doing this when they Lehmanni get released ... and quite possibly to control the market in their favor.

IMO, this would be a shame.
Turning a good thing for the hobby as a whole into a cash grab by a few for selfish, monetary reasons.


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## Dizzle21

Gamble said:


> From what I am understanding, there are a handful of people who already plan on doing this when they Lehmanni get released ... and quite possibly to control the market in their favor.
> 
> IMO, this would be a shame.
> Turning a good thing for the hobby as a whole into a cash grab by a few for selfish, monetary reasons.


The upside to this is that most of these member that are making this large investment are usually experienced with large obligates. I would rather have them goto experienced hands first and stabilized rather than a bunch of joe smo's with bucks to blow. 
These guys are also making a gamble. I remember when Paru first came in a lot of people were losing frogs left and right, then no one wanted to give up their lone male/ female so not many froglets were produced. Now guys are getting froglets steadily and no one wants to spend $600 a frog right now.
Anyway I agree about controlling the market, but I don't see it has a evil thing, but then again, i don't know to many frogger kingpins


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## Dane

I think it would assist CB populations much more if a dozen people were to get 5 frogs a piece, rather than 3-4 individuals scooping up huge percentages of the available animals (possibly because they have the know-how, possibly because they just have the $$). 
With little specific captive husbandry reference, some experimentation and variation of how the groups are housed/raised could offer valuable data on their continued propagation.


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## Julio

they usually have a limit on new high end frogs when they hit the market


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## PumilioTurkey

As Dizzle21 stated, I'd rather have a few selected and experienced keepers get their hands on the frogs and get them going instead of some beginner with too much money killing them off...

I can wait another 1-2 years until we have a stable CB population.

I remember from several Histrionicus and Lehmanni keepers the "magical" 8 month limit for froglets.....


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## Dendro Dave

PumilioTurkey said:


> As Dizzle21 stated, I'd rather have a few selected and experienced keepers get their hands on the frogs and get them going instead of some beginner with too much money killing them off...
> 
> I can wait another 1-2 years until we have a stable CB population.
> 
> I remember from several Histrionicus and Lehmanni keepers the "magical" 8 month limit for froglets.....


I'm not for frog hoarding but one thing to keep in mind is sometimes sexes are heavily skewed one way or the other and the statistical probability that you'll get a pair out of 4 frogs doesn't always hold. It assumes all things being equal, and often all things are not equal. So unless the sex ratios of these are naturally pretty much 50/50, someone could get 10 frogs and not end up with 1 pair. Heck even if statistically it is 50/50 they could still have bad luck. Ask all those people in Vegas betting on black and the dang thing hits red 20 times in a row


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## Sherman

PumilioTurkey said:


> I'd rather have a few selected and experienced keepers get their hands on the frogs and get them going instead of some beginner with too much money killing them off...
> 
> I can wait another 1-2 years until we have a stable CB population.



I'd rather be able to keep getting them from Tesoros de Colombia.


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## frogparty

agreed. Ill be purchasing from tesoros


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## Sherman

The first shipment from Colombia will be delayed. It was supposed to ship from Indoor Ecosystems October 29th for delivery on the 30th. Unforeseen delays, including our very own government shutdown caused the delay. If the issues cannot be ironed out, the frogs may be exported to Canada and re-exported to the USA. (at no additional charge to the customer) Everyone involved is concerned about the well being of the frogs, and the winter temperatures may come into play. Refunds were offered to people that were unwilling to wait, but I urge everyone to be patient. The hobby has waited decades for these animals, and everyone involved is working hard to get this done. 

Thank you, Tesoros, Understory Enterprises, Indoor Ecosystems and everyone involved in this complex process.

Patiently waiting,
Chris Sherman


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## Gamble

Sherman said:


> The first shipment from Colombia will be delayed. It was supposed to ship from Indoor Ecosystems October 29th for delivery on the 30th. Unforeseen delays, including our very own government shutdown caused the delay. If the issues cannot be ironed out, the frogs may be exported to Canada and re-exported to the USA. (at no additional charge to the customer) Everyone involved is concerned about the well being of the frogs, and the winter temperatures may come into play. Refunds were offered to people that were unwilling to wait, but I urge everyone to be patient. The hobby has waited decades for these animals, and everyone involved is working hard to get this done.
> 
> Thank you, Tesoros, Understory Enterprises, Indoor Ecosystems and everyone involved in this complex process.
> 
> Patiently waiting,
> Chris Sherman


I too spoke to Elaine ... 
she said that there is still hope to get them out within the next few weeks ... but as you can see, governments don't always operate as efficiently as we would like.

She said everything is still uncertain tho but she had more hope as of this afternoon then she did this morning.

If not, we just wait until spring.


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## Julio

Although disappointing it Just gives me more time to build more tanks and order some other frogs


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## dartsanddragons

Julio
Are they still taking orders? or did you mean from somewhere else?


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## PumilioTurkey

Sherman said:


> I'd rather be able to keep getting them from Tesoros de Colombia.


sure - but there is no unlimited supply of these animals out there...and it would ache my heart to see beginners with wealthy parents or people who think they're the next big thing in the frog scene to grab them and waste them....(seen it already).


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## Sherman

PumilioTurkey said:


> sure - but there is no unlimited supply of these animals out there...and it would ache my heart to see beginners with wealthy parents or people who think they're the next big thing in the frog scene to grab them and waste them....(seen it already).


You misunderstand. I would rather see Tesoros de Colombia become a thriving business and always have these frogs available. They are the ones doing the hard work and are currently the ones sucessfully breeding them. I don't think I will ever buy one of Tesoros's frogs from a private breeder if they are still offered from Tesoros directly. Price be damned.


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## pa.walt

are they slowly building up their stock on the products they sell or is it going to be "we have so many histos to sell but only enough for this year and that's it for them for couple of years." now they have say 5 types of frogs and will that be soon 7-10 types of frogs for sale in the future.
hope that made sense.


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## Gamble

Sherman said:


> You misunderstand. I would rather see Tesoros de Colombia become a thriving business and always have these frogs available. They are the ones doing the hard work and are currently the ones sucessfully breeding them. I don't think I will ever buy one of Tesoros's frogs from a private breeder if they are still offered from Tesoros directly. Price be damned.


Agreed. 
Same with UE as well.


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## Sherman

Gamble said:


> Agreed.
> Same with UE as well.


Agreed. Understory Enterprises, WIKIRI, Minjitsu, Tesoros de Colombia, etc. All the same. They deserve our support.

Invest in the companies. Don't buy the frogs as an investment.

^The above statement is a suggestion, not an order. 
So chill. I'm not telling the hobby what to do.


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## Dendro Dave

Sherman said:


> Agreed. Understory Enterprises, WIKIRI, Minjitsu, Tesoros de Colombia, etc. All the same. They deserve our support.
> 
> Invest in the companies. Don't buy the frogs as an investment.
> 
> ^The above statement is a suggestion, not an order.
> So chill. I'm not telling the hobby what to do.


What is Minjitsu? and Etc? (I know what etc means, but are there other programs), I'm out of the loop apparently


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## Gamble

Sherman said:


> Agreed. Understory Enterprises, WIKIRI, Minjitsu, Tesoros de Colombia, etc. All the same. They deserve our support.
> 
> Invest in the companies. Don't buy the frogs as an investment.
> 
> ^The above statement is a suggestion, not an order.
> So chill. I'm not telling the hobby what to do.


The only company of those you have listed, that I have experience with is UE. (And hopefully soon: Tesoros).

Of course I support them, but support is secondary ... I will buy from them over any private breeder (when the same product is offered) is bc I KNOW what I'm buying when I buy from them.

Too many times I've been disappointed with my purchases from private breeders.
Guess how many times UE has disappointed me?
(I'll give you a guess ... it's a number between -1 & 1).
Just in talking with the Peppers, you can tell that they have a passion for this hobby & care as much about it & the frogs as we do.
So to me, the extra money in price & the peace of mind is well worth supporting them indefinitely.


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## Sherman

Dendro Dave said:


> What is Minjitsu? and Etc? (I know what etc means, but are there other programs), I'm out of the loop apparently


Minjitsu is an organization in Madagascar that is doing some great work with mantella species in fractured and ever disappearing habitats. It is one of the very few instances where captive bred animals are being used to re-establish population in the wild. It is run by a friend of Mark Pepper. Good stuff.

As for "etc.", I guess that was a product of my boundless optimism for this type of thing. I hope that this type of awsome will continue to be successful and spread. Read "etc." as "the next".


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## skylsdale

And just to clear up any possible confusion: Mitsinju does not currently plan on making any animals available for the pet trade. Their focus is purely conservation and creating/preparing the infrastructure required if/when chytrid appears in Madagascar. Their collection and captive breeding work is part of an effort to get ahead of the wave, so to speak. Not to say they may not consider going through the process to make animals available in the future, but right now it is not part of any of the founders/funders' plans.


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## Sherman

skylsdale said:


> And just to clear up any possible confusion: Mitsinju does not currently plan on making any animals available for the pet trade.


And just to clear up any further possible confusion: "Minjitsu" is really *Mitsinju*.
-Speling isnt mie bestt subjekt- 
Thanks Ron.


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## Julio

dartsanddragons said:


> Julio
> Are they still taking orders? or did you mean from somewhere else?


not sure if they are still taking orders due to the delay, but ck the importers and see if they are, Black Jungle, LLL reptiles and Understory


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## dartsanddragons

Thanks Julio, I'll check with Elaine at Understory, much happier dealing with them.


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## skylsdale

Sherman said:


> And just to clear up any further possible confusion: "Minjitsu" is really *Mitsinju*.
> -Speling isnt mie bestt subjekt-
> Thanks Ron.


And to clarify both our errors: it's Mitsinj*o*.


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## hypostatic

skylsdale said:


> And to clarify both our errors: it's Mitsinj*o*.


Here's their website for those interested (golden mantella page)
Association Mitsinjo launches Golden Mantella captive breeding program | Association Mitsinjo


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## Gamble

UPDATE FROM ELAINE ... 

I received this email just a little bit ago regarding the status of the Blackfoot Terribs:


Hi Nick,
We did finally reach the point where we felt we had cleared all
obstacles and were ready to do the import from Colombia to the US this
week.
Unfortunately there were huge unforeseen delays with clearing at
customs and Fish and Wildlife(due to confusion/miscommunication/
misunderstandings between customs/broker/USFW) so the frogs came in
very stressed and with some mortalities.
So right now we are just holding them to further assess. When we are
confident that they are ready for shipping we will start to contact
people in the order that people contacted us to place their order.

With the frogs that we have, we will not be able to fill all of the
orders so have several options for you to consider if you can not get
your frogs from the shipment we just received.
1)Wait until Indoor Ecosystems does another "Direct from Tesoros
shipment" early in 2014.
2)Get your frogs as a Re-export from Canada in our March shipment -
PLEASE NOTE - this is the only time we will be able to do this but
right now we want everyone who has been so patient to get their frogs
as soon as possible)
3)Get a 100% refund

We are extremely disappointed/frustrated/discouraged that we do not
yet have the frogs for everyone who ordered them as there has been an
unfathomable amount of time and effort put into this by everyone
involved. This is not how these shipments are ever supposed to happen.
Thanks again for your patience.
Please take all of the time you need to consider your options and then
let us know.
Regards.
Elaine
P.S.
I have to be away until Monday so will most likely not be able to respond to
emails until then.




SO ... what decision are you all going to be making?
(Those that ordered them).


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## frogparty

Sad. But better that they get all the customs/CITES/USFW kinks out of the way now, and not later when the lehmannii are getting shipped!!


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## ecichlid

frogparty said:


> Sad. But better that they get all the customs/CITES/USFW kinks out of the way now, and not later when the lehmannii are getting shipped!!


 Unless you understand the specifics of the delays, it would be a mistake to count on that.


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## Azurel

Any time you get government agencies involved you are going to get delays, mishaps, communication failures....Sad to say....


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## frogparty

agreed, BUT........since Ive worked for the F&W before, I know that once you start dealing with the same people it becomes a whole hell of a lot easier. The first time or three is gonna suck, but hopefully they can get things going extremely smoothly in the future once the people on the USA side become more familiar with them, and they have a few rounds go through that dont put up any customs, USFW, or CITES red flags


It IS the nature of the beast for sure


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## phender

My guess the USA side is not the problem. There are probably a lot of people on the other side with their hand out just so your shipment doesn't get screwed up.


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## Gamble

phender said:


> My guess the USA side is not the problem. There are probably a lot of people on the other side with their hand out just so your shipment doesn't get screwed up.


Phil ... 
From what I understand, the US side was indeed the problem.


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## phender

Gamble said:


> Phil ...
> From what I understand, the US side was indeed the problem.


Well, that's what I get for guessing. If I might make another guess. I could see where any package coming from Colombia with not normally seen markings or manifests might arouse suspicion.


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## Gamble

I could see that as a possibility.


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## frogparty

phender said:


> Well, that's what I get for guessing. If I might make another guess. I could see where any package coming from Colombia with not normally seen markings or manifests might arouse suspicion.


That's exactly what I'm talking about


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## ecichlid

frogparty said:


> agreed, BUT........since Ive worked for the F&W before, I know that once you start dealing with the same people it becomes a whole hell of a lot easier. The first time or three is gonna suck, but hopefully they can get things going extremely smoothly in the future once the people on the USA side become more familiar with them, and they have a few rounds go through that dont put up any customs, USFW, or CITES red flags
> 
> 
> It IS the nature of the beast for sure


 That is so very true. USFW can be your friend. People love to complain about them but they were very good to us the times we imported cichlids from Africa and Eurpose. USFW is an entity, but it's made up of people. When those people are more familiar with you and rapport is built, they can make things happen quickly and efficiently. Trust is part of the equation. It's not all procedures and Big Brother.


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## thedude

ecichlid said:


> That is so very true. USFW can be your friend. People love to complain about them but they were very good to us the times we imported cichlids from Africa and Eurpose. USFW is an entity, but it's made up of people. When those people are more familiar with you and rapport is built, they can make things happen quickly and efficiently. Trust is part of the equation. It's not all procedures and Big Brother.


Ya the individual people can be very helpful. I had to deal with our local office for some scientific proposals. Very patient and helpful. 

Too bad the people in charge of the organization aren't the same at all...


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## markpulawski

I wonder what the difference was in this and the Truncatus shipments, did this one come to the US and those to Canada? I am sure based on different people and even the mood they are in can certainly change this experience one way or the other but theoretically this should be a pretty exact process. Too bad on this one there were glitches, we are all rooting for Understory and Tesoros to be successful with this endeavor.


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## Sherman

^Mark,
This was the first shipment directly imported into the United States. The previous ones were exported to Canada and subsequently re-exported to the US.


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## Roadrunner

Or more. I was avg. 6+ months on paperwork till I just quit. I had to call my representative and they threatened a congressional inquiry to get my first sets of paperwork going. Dealing with the people in Wash on the phone was unbelievable. They just stopped answering the phone when they couldn't find my applications. And this was to export not import. 
The guy I dealt with at the border to deliver them was top notch. Just my experience with a few small shipments and I think it's that way to deter more people getting into exporting or importing.



frogparty said:


> agreed, BUT........since Ive worked for the F&W before, I know that once you start dealing with the same people it becomes a whole hell of a lot easier. The first time or three is gonna suck, but hopefully they can get things going extremely smoothly in the future once the people on the USA side become more familiar with them, and they have a few rounds go through that dont put up any customs, USFW, or CITES red flags
> 
> 
> It IS the nature of the beast for sure


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## scoy

Peter Keane said:


> Nice job Ron,
> I already have truncatus, but ordered more.. Not just to because I want to see lehmanni come in, but because like you said, they ARE amazing frogs. There are over 70 color variants /combinations in histrionica. So, if this first and second phase of these frogs begin to payoff.. We will be rewarded on something new. I would love to see some new histrionica come in. Tesoro's lehmanni are being raised on surplus eggs. Not sure if this is because they don't want to overburden the females and save her eggs for making more or if there is an issue with letting the females care for them as they would in the Wild. I am also going to order some of those gorgeous auras. So, c'mon people, get some frogs.. We haven't been this close to legal lehmanni in three decades!!! (I got some, my very first fog actually, back in 1975 (pre-CITES), but still not sure if they were legal then).. If you're curious or some may already know.. Guess what I paid per lehmanni frog back then, lol
> Peter


I refferred to this comment in a Q&A Sherman is running for Tesoros and am wondering if this is indeed fact?


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## edward

Peter Keane said:


> Nice job Ron,
> I already have truncatus, but ordered more.. Not just to because I want to see lehmanni come in, but because like you said, they ARE amazing frogs. There are over 70 color variants /combinations in histrionica. So, if this first and second phase of these frogs begin to payoff.. We will be rewarded on something new. I would love to see some new histrionica come in. Tesoro's lehmanni are being raised on surplus eggs. Not sure if this is because they don't want to overburden the females and save her eggs for making more or if there is an issue with letting the females care for them as they would in the Wild. I am also going to order some of those gorgeous auras. So, c'mon people, get some frogs.. We haven't been this close to legal lehmanni in three decades!!! (I got some, my very first fog actually, back in 1975 (pre-CITES), but still not sure if they were legal then).. If you're curious or some may already know.. Guess what I paid per lehmanni frog back then, lol
> Peter


lehmanni came in to Switzerland back in 1973, along with histrionica, granulifera, costa 
rican auratus and pumilio (blue jeans). if I remember correctly they were all between
CHF 15 and CHF 20 each.


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## JL-Exotics

JL-Exotics is pleased to announce that we will have Tesoros de Colombia frogs available for purchase at the Microcosm event!

Quantities will be limited, so reserving in advance is recommended. Please email to place your reservation.

Orange Black-Foot Terribilis: $185 each

Yellow Black-Foot Terribilis: $160 each

Yellow Aurotaenia: $80 each

Green Aurotaenia: $75 each

Look forward to seeing everyone there!!


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## NM Crawler

Hey Jeremy, tried sending you a pm but your inbox is, wonder why.....haha


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## JL-Exotics

NM Crawler said:


> Hey Jeremy, tried sending you a pm but your inbox is, wonder why.....haha


lol, sorry about that. I promise that my email inbox isn't full yet 

You can email me at: contact <a> jl-exotics.com

Thanks!


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## NM Crawler

Email sent.....thanks


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