# spindley leg question



## Guest (Oct 22, 2004)

:? Hi, I have a batch of azureus tadpoles which now have their front legs out. I need to determine if spindley leg is present. I read from books it would appear in the rear as well as front legs. My froglets have nice rear legs but the fronts seem on the thin side. They hop very well but their front arm movement seems limited.Do they use the front legs right away or do they need time to develop strength in them? Can spindley leg affect only the front legs? Please let me know,thank you for your time.


----------



## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

The tadpoles/froglets should start to use their front legs before they completely loose their tail. If they can't hold their head up off the ground without effort or at all then they difinately have spindly-leg. It will become more evident as they grow older and chance are if they have spindly-leg they will die young. 

Almost forgot. Spindly leg mostly is just the front legs, the back commonly look normal. 

Best,

Chuck


----------



## Guest (Oct 22, 2004)

Thank You Chuck, I appreciate your imput on this.


----------



## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

I have had tons of trouble with spindly leg. I can't seem to figure it out
ADAM


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Spindly leg is a complex of causes covered under one name. This may lead people to believe that there are only a couple of potential causes and that these are easily remidied. The truth is that there are multiple potential causes that can require different approaches to resolve the issue. In fact the resolution may be unique for that person. 
Some things to try, do not pull clutches for a month or more to rest the adults, change the supplements you are using, use larger containers to rear the tads (a quart or larger) and do not change the water, change the food you are offering the tads, add B vitamins to the tadpole water, add a small amount of an iodine containing food source, use tadpole teas, offer live foods, use small doses of UVB exposure and use aged tap water as opposed to carbon filtered, RO or DI water. These have all been used as sucessful "cures" for spindly leg.


----------



## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Jabba, I have a pair of Leucs that consistently produce spindly legged froglets. This has allowed me to experiment with some of the "cures" that Ed has mentioned above. It will take me several more months to gather all the data I have and maybe draw some conclusions but I will post whatever I find. I’m trying to make the best of a bad situation. Many of the froglets I get have somewhat functional front legs, but they all have fully functioning back legs. Here is a link to a picture of a normal and a spindly tad in the last stages of metamorphoses. They will eat (or at least ours can) for a couple months but we usually euthanize them within a couple weeks of morphing into froglets, because some do not eat at all. 
http://www.martin-spot.com/image_pages/ ... rison.html

Hope this helps!
Ed


----------



## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

I think water is also an issue, my friend always has spindly issues when the city changes what it puts in the water, he finds the right additives and gets froglets without spindly for awhile until the water is changed again. I use springwater, and I have never had any problems with spindly, he has too many tadpoles to buy springwater though.


----------



## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

I am also battling SLS with my Auratus. I was very interested in Ed's suggstions, and I was hoping you could expand your reasoning for the following: "*use larger containers to rear the tads (a quart or larger) and do not change the water*". The other suggestions I have heard in one form or another, but these caught me by suprise. I would love more insight on this topic!!


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I have the problem also, its not specific, but I think it is something I am using. Right now I am using treated tap water, but I may go back to spring water.

I am starting to use some tropical fish food along with my algaes. We will see.


----------



## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

...I am using aged Brita (water filter) water. I figured it would filter out the heavy metals and aging it would eliminate the chlorine. I do live in a city where the drinking water is good, but I wonder....


----------



## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

Kyle it may be your water. I know in my city there is always something new in the water that is causing problems. A red eye breeder here lost $60,000 in red eye tads due to a water change, and a aquarium here had all there fish die from a new additive in the water. On a sidenote, what do you think the water is doing to humans? The first thing they said when they added chloramines, was to treat fish, dog, and cat water. Its scary when you think about it. Thats why I always use springwater, and I havent had a spindly froglet, and I have had a lot of froglets come out of the water.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

*quart or larger*

This has been used by a number of people to either resolve or prevent spindly leg. The first person I heard really champion this method was a gentleman names Lars on frognet. 
The method is simple and easy to use. He places the tads in a larger container filled most of the way with water (I believe usually single tads) .
The container and tad is under a light source so that algae grows on the sides of the container. The tads are fed lightly and allowed to graze on the algae and aufwuchs. The containers are topped off and are not changed even between tads unless there is a death when the container is scrubbed and sterilized before replacing it in the system. 
All I can say is that this method has worked for other people. I pulled alot of the spindly leg info together for a journal that Tracy Hicks is going to publish so that is how I knew of all of the methods off the top of my head. 
Ed


----------



## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

Thanks for elaborating on the issue. I met Tracy Hicks at Todd Kelly's house last year and I believe everything they have to say in regards to dart frogs. I will give it a try.


----------



## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Ed,

That is an interesting method. I am curious- he doesn't have any water changes at all? I mean, tads put out a lot of urea and other waste products into the water. I don't think that the algae could use up this waste at the same rate that the tad is producing it. What size containers was he using?

Justin


----------



## Jace King (May 5, 2004)

i have lost way to many tads to even think on it. i use ice mountain water with blackwater extract in ball jars and eds fly cups. i want to change to something new but cant figure out what.


----------



## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Jace King,

What are you feeding your tads? How often? How often are you supplementing with vitamins and calcium for your adults?

Justin


----------



## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

I feed my tads a combo of Tadpole powder (edsflymeatinc.com), Sera Micron Stage 1 newborn fry food (52.1% protein), and Tetra's Spirulina enhanced fish flakes. I currently change the water and feed daily. I do not introduce the fish flake until the rear legs emerge (no reason, I just figure the small powder is better for the smaller tads).


----------



## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I can outline for you how, when I had spindly leg with a group of my frogs, I was able to resolve the problem. I had a trio of wc Panamanian _D. auratus_. The first year they breed fine, the second I started getting spindly-leg and by the end of the second year they all had spindly-leg. The following year started out just as bad, but then someone mentioned that they used vitamins to supplement their frogs (I never had, but that was really early in the hobby). I started supplementing the adults with Nekton beta and Nekton E and in a little over a month (in addition to the three months to get froglets) the problem disappeared and I've had virtually no problems since. I used many different containers, the smallest being pint mason jars, different food, different water and the problem hasn't resurfaced. This lead me to believe that the main problem lies with the adults. The other factors may bring it out to some extent, but the main part of the problem was with the adult breeders. Healthy adults produced healthy tadpoles. 

Best,

Chuck


----------



## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

I completely agree with you, I personaly feel that you have to start with healthy adults to begin to address the problem. I should have mentioned before that I dust my ff's with DENDROCARE with every feeding.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

But I have had some come out fine...

Here is what I do right now and the couple of things I have changed:
-tap water teated with Aquarium safe also sits for a week before used.
-feed the standard 50:50 algae mix
-water changes weekly
-adults used to get vitamins 2-3 times a week (Herptivite:Rep-Cal)

What I have changed so far:
-adults get vitamins every day
-feeding tads aglae and high quality fish food
-tad containers get small leaf pieces

So far I can not tell if it is helping it is too early, but I may look for some other water treatment stuff.

I bought a testing kit from Lowes and tested our local water (columbus city water) and it tested very well. Very low levels off all the major things. 



geckguy said:


> Kyle it may be your water. I know in my city there is always something new in the water that is causing problems. A red eye breeder here lost $60,000 in red eye tads due to a water change, and a aquarium here had all there fish die from a new additive in the water. On a sidenote, what do you think the water is doing to humans? The first thing they said when they added chloramines, was to treat fish, dog, and cat water. Its scary when you think about it. Thats why I always use springwater, and I havent had a spindly froglet, and I have had a lot of froglets come out of the water.


----------



## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

> I can outline for you how, when I had spindly leg with a group of my frogs, I was able to resolve the problem. I had a trio of wc Panamanian D. auratus. The first year they breed fine, the second I started getting spindly-leg and by the end of the second year they all had spindly-leg. The following year started out just as bad, but then someone mentioned that they used vitamins to supplement their frogs (I never had, but that was really early in the hobby). I started supplementing the adults with Nekton beta and Nekton E and in a little over a month (in addition to the three months to get froglets) the problem disappeared and I've had virtually no problems since. I used many different containers, the smallest being pint mason jars, different food, different water and the problem hasn't resurfaced. This lead me to believe that the main problem lies with the adults. The other factors may bring it out to some extent, but the main part of the problem was with the adult breeders. Healthy adults produced healthy tadpoles.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


FWIW, the same thing happened to me... well supplemented adults will produced normal offsprings.


SB


----------



## Jace King (May 5, 2004)

hello
i feed my tads with ed's tadpole powder. once every other day, sometimes every third day. i want to change my galacs to community enclosures. has anyone had any luck putting galacs in community tad enclosures, if so how large were they. and what plants and lighting did it have. My Azureus have laid over 100 eggs, so now im not removing any eggs and i put in a water dish. to either stop them or get them to raise up something on their own. My vents have not actually hatched out tads yet, but this first clutch is viable. i need to change something cause my water quality can go bad overnight sometimes..


----------



## Jace King (May 5, 2004)

i am supplementing with rep cal and herptivite. almost every day. rotating every third dusting with one calcium dusting.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Adults fed a correct diet are one method by which spindly can be avoided in some cases but there are instances of identical methods of frog husbandry and tadpole rearing resulting in spindly at one location and not at another. 

Regarding the container. A dart frog tad is a small organism, the waste diluted out into a quart container is a significant level of dilution as long as overfeeding does not occur. Algaes under the proper conditions can remove a surprising level of waste from the water as well as sequestering heavy metals. For a good overview of algae scrubbing I would recommend Adey and Loveland, The Dynamic Aquaria. Additionally the algaes are potentially a significant source of B vitamins. 

Ed


----------



## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

I can confirm what Ed stated. I have a pair of leucs that are fed the same thing and receive the same supplementation as all my other frogs, yet 9 out of 10 froglets morph out with SLS. The rest of the collection averages far less than 10%. So there is something else going on with this pair. I am experimenting with 6 clutches and providing B-Complex to the tads. The first 2 clutches received no supplementation and have morphed out already. They were my control group. I believe that the problem goes beyond ordinary supplementation of the adults (at least where these frogs are concerned) and there may be a need for specialized “breeding” supplementation. As I said, I’ll post any info that I gather…. The last clutch is only 15 days out of the egg. So I will not be able to draw any conclusions for a couple months. 
Ed


----------



## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Just because you don't have rampent spindly-leg throughout your collection does not mean the adult D. leucomelas are in prime breeding condiiton. I'd suggest because you appear to have spindly-leg in more than one group of frogs that your supplementation isn't adequate to the frogs needs. I also believe that many other factors influence froglets getting spindly-leg. But I believe that the better shape the adults are in the fewer incidents of spindly-leg you'll have. 

One other note - even with well kept animals you'll get more incidents of spindly-legs the more the frogs breed. This means that your control groups are likely to have less incidents of spindly-leg that later clutches - all other factors equal. 

Best,

Chuck



Ed Martin said:


> I can confirm what Ed stated. I have a pair of leucs that are fed the same thing and receive the same supplementation as all my other frogs, yet 9 out of 10 froglets morph out with SLS. The rest of the collection averages far less than 10%. So there is something else going on with this pair. I am experimenting with 6 clutches and providing B-Complex to the tads. The first 2 clutches received no supplementation and have morphed out already. They were my control group. I believe that the problem goes beyond ordinary supplementation of the adults (at least where these frogs are concerned) and there may be a need for specialized “breeding” supplementation. As I said, I’ll post any info that I gather…. The last clutch is only 15 days out of the egg. So I will not be able to draw any conclusions for a couple months.
> Ed


[/i]


----------



## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Chuck, I do not have spindly leg in more than the one group of frogs mentioned, "far less than 10%" meant that I do not get spindly legs in the clutches from other frogs. I just did not want to say that I never had it in other pairs because I am superstitious and do not want to jinx myself. 

I recognize that the issue is with the parents, the reason that I am doing this is to see if anything can be done after the eggs are laid. 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Just because you don't have rampent spindly-leg throughout your collection does not mean the adult D. leucomelas are in prime breeding condiiton." 

It also does not mean that they are not. 

snip " I'd suggest because you appear to have spindly-leg in more than one group of frogs that your supplementation isn't adequate to the frogs needs. I also believe that many other factors influence froglets getting spindly-leg. But I believe that the better shape the adults are in the fewer incidents of spindly-leg you'll have." 

Given that development is a cascade system requiring the influence of multiple hormones and enzymes, it is only prudent to expect that there are multiple places where the development can be disrupted. This is supported by all of the different methods by which "spindly leg" can be made to disappear from a single person's collection and the fact that this method may not work for a different location with the same feeding and supplementation regimen. 


Ed


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

What I find odd about it, at least in my case, is that I get it from both my Leucs and my Azurues so I wonder if it is something like water quality or etc. I am hoping that my recent changes help, but too soon to tell.


----------



## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

Kyle-

I wondered if genetics plays a hand at this? You should track down the siblings of your Leucs and Azurues (preferably from same clutch) and see if they are experiencing SLS with their offspring....that could lead to a nature vs. nurture debate....


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There were some early studies in which genetics was linked to sls but this may have been an incorrect conclusion as the offspring were reared in the same methods as the sl affected siblings. 

Ed


----------



## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Bump

Since I am having trouble with my Vitattus tads and SLS, I was wondering if the people in this post have come to some serious conclusions since this thread was started two years ago. There should have been plenty of time to test your theories. 
Thanks,


----------



## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

2nd row down, third from the left, seems to be the one that most looks like the one I tried to discribe. With maybe subtle differences, but it's hard to tell for sure, could just be the lower level. For the most part it's the same.


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Here is my spindly experience.

I have a pair of GL lamasi from Phil (who doesn't... right) :wink: . Since Oct 05

They started breeding in Jan, and the past 2 months tads have been coming out of the water. 100% SLS. 

Now Phil's experience is that he "almost never" has SLS with them.
Perhaps it is the young parent curse, or different foods/supplements but my regimen is fairly normal.

Parents are fed 5xwk, dusted Rep-cal (calcium and Herpevite) each time.
50:50 RO and Well water, with BW Extract. Changed weekly.
Almond leaf, tad bites and occ spirulina. Fed 2-3x wk.
20 oz Glad containers, individually.

Now I wonder about water temp. These were winter babies after all, and this being New England the frog room ambient temp in the winter is 65F night, 70F day.. I have no easy way of warming the tad area so they stay at ambient temps. Now other species are morphing fine, and the 'problem' is very bad with this one pair of Lamasi.

What does everyone think about temps?

Has anyone had SLS issues with feeding the HBG Tad Bites exclusively?

Shawn


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> What does everyone think about temps?


Interesting. I'm interested in the opposite end of the spectrum, them being too hot. 

A Dwarf Cobalt tad just morphed with SLS. Not nearly as bad as my last batch of tads, but still SLS. I was keeping a heating mat under their container (3ish gallons of water) and even on low the temp was around 83 or so in the water. The last time I morphed a successful tad from these guys my setup was completely different so I'm trying to nail down the deciding factor so to speak. Temp looks like it could be a significant factor but only time and research will tell.


----------



## nburns (May 3, 2005)

I never had any problems until I moved all of my tads to the top shelf of one of my racks. There was a light below them so it heated the shelf they were on thus heating their containers. Nothing else was changed so I have a feeling that my water temps became too hot and that at least contributed to the sls that I had.


----------



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Shawn,

Very interesting. I have a pair of GL Lamasi from Phil that also started breeding in January and I've had nothing but good froglets from them.

Temperature may be the factor....btw I use HBG Tad Bites almost exclusively and don't see that as being a factor in SLS.

I am beginning to think that I need a large incubator to keep temps for my tads regulated since I have seen some seasonal variation with either spot cases of SLS or higher than usual tad mortality.

Bill 



sports_doc said:


> Here is my spindly experience.
> 
> I have a pair of GL lamasi from Phil (who doesn't... right) :wink: . Since Oct 05
> 
> ...


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Yeah Bill. I have had 6 SLS tads, 6 more on the way that I suspect will also have the problem...(they pop front legs 'late' ) 

I am thinking I need to regulate temps better myself and will try and set up some type of system to do so at 78-80F.

thanks for responding.

Shawn




elmoisfive said:


> Shawn,
> 
> Very interesting. I have a pair of GL Lamasi from Phil that also started breeding in January and I've had nothing but good froglets from them.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dang wrong thread for this post... 

snip "Well I did, and there didn't seem to be any concrete conclusion, but of course there never should be, to many possible variables to consider. “endsnip 

The concrete conclusions are as follows
1) It is a syndrome as there are multiple different disorders that present the same condition
2) In many of cases, it is nutritionally based as opposed to environmental or genetic based 

The Baltimore Zoo did a study which wasn’t published) that showed that in their study SLS was 100% linked to the nutritional status of the adults. However since that time there has been documentation showing that some of the cases can be enviromental such too warm or too cool (which appears to be species specific) of a temperature. 


snip “It's usually a collaberation of contamination with more commonly inorganics. “endsnip 

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that this is due to a synergistic effect with pollutants. This in general has not been supported either in the few studies done on SLS or the majority of anecdotal reports. See below for more comments. 

snip “Why did you feel I needed to check it out and not dragon frog? “endsnip 

He was not asking as to possible causes/cures and was posting a picture so other people could see what an SLS affected froglet looks like. 

snip “What's your position on elastomers from petrol products? “endsnip

If I understand you correctly… Elastomers are pretty much confined to rubber sources and petrol derived elastomers would imply artificial rubber products. These products with very few exceptions should not be a problem as they shouldn’t be in contact with the tadpoles or their water. The few exceptions are gaskets that are found in spigots and filters. If these are a concern, run the water for 5 minutes or so to flush the line clean. If you are referring to plastic polymers, there have been the occasional anecdotal report of SLS going away when plastic containers are no longer used but the frequency of this is very small when compared to the number of cases that are caused by a lack in some nutrient. 

snip “I would say for long term success wheaton/good old mason jars are probably the best option. “endsnip

If there are concerns about plastics leaching materials into the water then glass is a good standby however people often do use plastic containers with good success. At work I have used plastic yogurt containers and small plastic aquaria with excellent success. In general, if you soak most food grade plastics for a week or two in an acidic solution, (such as a weak vinegar solution) this will remove most items that may leach from the plastic. 

snip “Also I'm with you when it comes to sterile set ups. I'm absolutely convinced on the rare/never change algae/java method, by far surpasses any other in creating a quality captive. Sterile inclosures are way to unstable for my liking. If one microorg establishes itself (seems most common to be fungus) there's nothing to conteract its over expansion and keep it in check. “endsnip 

The problem isn’t with one organism taking over but the stress that the tadpole may undergo if the container has a small volume of water and the bacteria needed to process the waste haven’t become established in it yet. This can immunosuppress the tadpole allowing infection by opportunistic pathogens.

snip “There should always be a good balance of creatures in the water. If it wasn't for daphnia, +, for sure I'd have trouble. “ensnip 

Daphnia are used as water quality indicators. If the water is of poor quality then the daphnia will die off. 

Ed


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Well Ed, still good info, and not off topic for this thread.

as a note, on the plastics issues you brought up, the GL lamasi tads were reared some in glass jars, others in plastic, all ended up with SLS.

on the parent nutrition issue, these parents came from a reputable breeder that has produced many productive pairs out there on the DB and started breeding for me within a month of me receiving them, so I dont think I had time to 'pollute' their nutritional status :wink: . I'm not that quick :wink: , and anyway I think they were well fed and supplemented...


so in my case I think it is either young parents or temps of tads...

the parents are aging. :lol: and the temps are climbing  and ironically they stopped laying eggs a month ago :x 

Shawn


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Shawn,


At least it wasn't a total loss... 

A thought to consider with the retinol issue is that many of the supplements currently in use do not contain any retinol (due to the previous issues with a form of MBD called secondary hyperparathyroidism) but instead use what should be a sufficient amount of betacarotene. In addition, insects are a very poor source of retinol as well as being a poor source of carotenoids.. 

I suspect that you are correct that in your case enviromental factors may be causing the SLS but most cases are nutritional instead of enviromental. 

I haven't decided but I may do a workshop/discussion group on SLS at the next IAD (which I believe is going to be the first week of May if we can lock it that weekend (the only one available at that venue) next year). 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

from all that ive experienced sls cant be genetic. if it was you couldnt get rid of it in successive clutches, you would not see full clutches getting it if the parents showed no sign of it, and it would die out unless it was recessive since no froglets would grow up w/ it to pass it on. unless your talking heat affecting the sperm and egg genetics while forming.

as for tad diet, probable, but ive had a dwarf fr guiana tinc grow up in an ashtray that was in w/ the parents w/ nothing to eat but coco peat and waste from the parents if they defecated in the soak dish. it had perfect front legs. tadpole diet likely has an effect but isnt the primary determinant. 

parents nutrition, definately. the thing you have to realize is that you have sperm and eggs to worry about. if the female hogs the food for a while, gets too obese and has too much fat to produce 12 - 15 eggs in a pinch and is not getting the right mix of vit/min/calc to match the eccess fat and protein you can get it. it`s like she`s spreading the vits and min too thin and you get small weak froglets then spindly, then tads dying then tads dyeing in the egg then eggs not forming to hatch then eggs taking 4-5 days to start forming etc. sometime skipping one or more of these steps depending on the severity and whats missing from the diet. 

temperature, definately. as the water temp goes up so does the metabolism of the tadpole. the quicker the metabolism the higher the energy need and the higher the temps you have a better range for bacteria to grow, bad and good. if the water temps are too low food wont be processed as quickly and could lead to digestive problems which can in turn create sls.

water quality, i dont know. ive only used local spring and well and city water. all tads receive the same quality water and ive yet to have sls show itself in more than 1 group of tads at a time. this leads me to believe that anything affecting sls in my animals is linked to my feeding techniques. such as letting a female get too fat. problem is this can not be detected till close to 3 months later. people randomly start changing things and they start getting good offspring and attribute their success to a change thet may or may not have occured during the course of sls underlying problem dissappearing and may not have been linked to the underlying problem. that is when you get all sorts of "cures" for sls being spread around. the diet of the parents problem may be even more complicated considering the time that the eggs were actually formed that are now being layed which will later display sls. if a male is too hot and it`s his sperm thats malforming it may take a month or 2 of lower temps to start forming good sperm again. if you change the diet and the temps you cant really say which made the change.
then there are the young breeder problems which should just work themselves out.

in conclusion, there are more than 3 factors affecting sls. it is very hard to detect which one or more of these may be the cause for your certain situation. keep trying though, it means your real close. best thing to do, imo, turn them off for a while(1-2-3months). it`s much harder to fix when they are still breeding. seperate them. feed one more one less change the diet change the temps and then reintroduce them. it`s like a froggy vaca from their mate to work on their problems. 
as for tad temps i would never let the water get close to 80. the water temps of my tads are a constant 70 - 71f w/ air temps closer to 72 to 78 nite/day


----------

