# N.Fireball turning green



## oilersface (Jan 15, 2012)

Hope you can help me out I received this fireball last week and it was nice red; looking at today it starting to turn green. The photoperiod is 12 hours with 96w of t5 6500 k lighting the tank. The fireball is about 4 inches from the lights. It's a 30 inch long tank by 12 inches. I thought I had a lot of light for the tank what am I doing wrong?


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## mcaiger53 (Jan 3, 2011)

That is weird that it is turning green so fast? I have many of them with less light than you, and they hold their color ok. Do you have decent refectors w the lights? If you are running 96w with poor or no reflectors, you can count on at least 30-40% loss because half the light is going up and not in the tank. Is your top glass clean? Are you keeping them full of water? I'm no plant expert by any means, but it seems they aren't happy if they are turning green so fast. 
Mike


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

Oh, it is probably happy enough. I wouldn't judge a bromeliad's health based on its color. You lose reds with low light intensity, and sometimes with too much food. And at least in my conditions (michigan), I really see the reds pop when the plants get pretty cold (far colder than your tank should get). I'd give the plant a few weeks to adjust and see how it looks then.

If it is just 'starting' to turn green, well, that is probably what you get. Going from 75% or so full sun to a tank is a recipe for a bit less color. You can't get that much light in your tank, not without cooking it. You won't have as intense color in the tank as you would outside, that is pretty normal. It will still be red, just not as red, maybe with some green areas. If it turns totally green, then it isn't enough light for sure. I lose color pretty quickly when i bring plants inside for the winter and stick them under lights (or when i put them in the greenhouse even...).

Rob


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## oilersface (Jan 15, 2012)

Would increasing the photoperiod help? The refloctor looks good and the tank is exremly bright. The broms all have water inside of them.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

That is a tremendous amount of light actually. That's what I have on my reef tank and I have hard corals that are growing! All my fireballs get intensely red and I typically have them from 6 to 10 inches from the light with two 26 watt daylight CFL bulbs. I don't know what happens if they are exposed to too much light, but I would guess that it's getting pretty warm as well. Can you put some spacers between the lid and the fixture and maybe a small fan to cool the glass?

Also, I agree with littlefrog that it is strange that it is turning so quickly.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I also remember reading that distilled water is best for watering neos. They apparently don't do well with chlorinated water. I've also found that hard water leaves minerals stains in at the leaf bases near the water line as water evaporates - another good reason to used distilled water.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

I have had some plants go green from too much light and too little light. How old are your bulbs? If they are more than 8 months they really need to be changed. Also, I would check the temps because it is so close to the light. Try moving it down a little and see if that helps.


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## oilersface (Jan 15, 2012)

Light Fixture is brand new and tempetures don't go above 72 degrees and dont go below 68. I am truly stumped I use a chemical to remove the Chlorine in the water so not sure that mught be an issue.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

How old is the bulb? 
is the T5 fixture/bulb ventilated? 

Is this a single bulb fixture? 


I bought a green zoe from Home Depot several months ago, which was put into a 20L with (4) 46.5" T5's about 3.5 feet above it. ( yea I know some of you reading this might think WTH!!! Its actually a suspended fixture for two tanks, one is 3 feet long the other is a foot. 
It sprouted out a pup and the pup has went from green, to hot pink, to deep red, and now is so dark blood red it almost looks black! 

So, if your brom is turning green within only a week I'd consider the bulb. 

Just my two cents...


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Rob and Jim are basically correct. 

1) As to water, you can use aged water, unless your water is hard coming out of the tap. In that case use bottled water but not distilled water--it is too 
pure and will pull nutrients from the plant. 

2) Your lighting should be fine. Bear in mind that Neo 'Fireball' is one of the most light-demanding neos. At the BBG, they have a huge colony (maybe 200+ rosettes) in their aquatic room, which is all glass. It does green in the winter. At the same time, it can burn in full sun in Australia! Still, I would not screw around with the photoperiod for one plant.

3) I am not the neoregelia expert, but the following all seem to hold color better than Fireball:

Neo ampullaceae
Neo punctatissima and its hybrids
Neo 'June Night'
Neo 'Tiger cub'
Neo 'Red Bird'
Neo 'Red Waif'

and many of the small hybrids by Grace Goode

Where's Antone on this one?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Groundhog said:


> Rob and Jim are basically correct.
> 
> 1) As to water, you can use aged water, unless your water is hard coming out of the tap. In that case use bottled water but not distilled water--it is too
> pure and will pull nutrients from the plant.
> ...



Front and center! 

You have any research that supports the claim that distilled water actually pulls nutrients from bromeliads? I'd love to have a look-see at that. Is it due to osmosis or something?

Nothing beats rain water. I can't tell you how much your plants (and frogs!) will love you if you can collect and use rain water. So long as you are in an area that doesn't have lots of pollutants in the air. Big cities and industrial areas for example, I may not use rain water from these areas. 

As for the light, I'd like to know how many foot candles are reaching the plant. As already suggested, Neo. fireball really likes a lot of light to get the best color. I grew mine in approx. 2700 foot candles of light in the greenhouse. It is very normal for them to start greening up within a few days of terrarium life. Even though a viv may appear very bright, when you measure it, it's hardly brighter than outside shade. It won't kill the plant to be green and in fact, green means it's not stressed bc these plants develop the strong foliage color to ward off harmful amounts of sun light. 

So long as it doesn't rot, a green fireball is just fine.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Osmosis indeed. That is why bottled water is better, and rain water the best. My sources include the BSI _Cultural Manual_ and the Australian manual _Bromeliads_.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Groundhog said:


> Osmosis indeed. That is why bottled water is better, and rain water the best. My sources include the BSI _Cultural Manual_ and the Australian manual _Bromeliads_.


Any way I could get a copy online? I just don't see how this is true. No offense I am just stubborn and need to read the research. 

It would seem to me that if the nutrient was pulled out, it would soak right back in since the water is sitting in/on the plant....


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

I only pass on what I have read in a few places. It always seemed sensible to me; I am no chemist, but is it not the case that osmosis would cause the osmotic pressure to equalize? I know that distilled water is safe for seed starting, but not for _long term_ culture unless some nutrients (i.e., minerals) are added. 

I personally use aged tap water, with Dynagro at half-strength. Hell, this even works for my Sarracenias (sans Dynagro, of of course.) Then again, my plants are outside for seven months, so they do get rain. NYC tap water is pretty safe--not hard and no chloramine. It is important though, that one never uses softened water, because of the potential for overloading on salts. 

Incidentally, for those who don't know, water that is hard, has chloramine and/or fluoride is not only harmful to bromeliads, but some other monocots as well, e.g, Marantaceae, Dracaenas, etc. I also know of people who have success using aged tap water with an aquarium water conditioner.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I would have to agree that using distilled water and never adding any nutrients could definitely cause some problems. Gotta have nutrients!


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

I water mine with distilled plus orchid grow fertilizer. 
Unless your using ultra pure water that is literally lab grade (18mega ohms) I doubt the bottled distilled water available at say Walmart or your local grocer is THAT pure. 

Rain water around here is very low in TDS. I use it for watering orchids I have growing outside and I also use distilled every once in a while to rinse away built up salts in their pots, and only water with distilled and rain for my carnivores. 

I personally don't see how distilled water pulls nutrients from the plant. I get osmosis but keep in mind that plant cells have two cell walls which better protect them from changes in osmotic pressure than say animal cells. 

If in doubt, just use spring water, or RODI with a reconstitute added like osmoprep which contains a few minerals. That way you know the water is quality and has nothing in it you don't want.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Yeah, I picked up a beautiful fireball off EBAY about 6 weeks ago, it was a DEEP burgundy red when it arrived. Its been under ALOT of light: 54 watt power compact, 50 watts of T5, 24 watts of T8, and 36 watts of T-10, and the plant is now revertign back to a green with some red striations. Given, its a 36 inch tall tank, but its about 14 inches from the light. I think the glass (1/4") filters out alot of the UV necessary for the red coloration. Regular pane glass has high levels of lead in it. You can get a quartz based glass (regular glass is sand, ie silicon)...one trade name is starfire..that is lead free and allows almost all UV through....but its not cheap stuff. My fireball is still healthy and growing, so I'm ok with it going green.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Groundhog said:


> I only pass on what I have read in a few places. It always seemed sensible to me; I am no chemist, but is it not the case that osmosis would cause the osmotic pressure to equalize? I know that distilled water is safe for seed starting, but not for _long term_ culture unless some nutrients (i.e., minerals) are added.
> 
> I personally use aged tap water, with Dynagro at half-strength. Hell, this even works for my Sarracenias (sans Dynagro, of of course.) Then again, my plants are outside for seven months, so they do get rain. NYC tap water is pretty safe--not hard and no chloramine. It is important though, that one never uses softened water, because of the potential for overloading on salts.
> 
> Incidentally, for those who don't know, water that is hard, has chloramine and/or fluoride is not only harmful to bromeliads, but some other monocots as well, e.g, Marantaceae, Dracaenas, etc. I also know of people who have success using aged tap water with an aquarium water conditioner.


Culturing bromeliads inside a greenhouse and only watering with DI/RO could cause the plant to have deficiency issues but in enclosures with frogs or other small animals, the conditions are going to be different since there are going to be nutrient inputs on a fairly consistent basis (frog waste, fruit flies, supplements, frogs tracking substrate, pieces of shed skin). 

With respect to the osmotic potential, as noted above, plants have a better method of preventing issues with osmotic potential (even before we look at the wax on the leaves which will reduce or inhibit water movement in both directions), and it should be noted that RO/DI, and rain water aren't that far apart with respect to osmotic potential (both are under well under mOsm/kg). 

With respect to rain water pollutants, even collecting away from an industrial center doesn't mean that the water is safe... acid rain can occur pretty far from point of origin (for example, rural central Pa, and Western New York are heavily impacted from sources west of those regions). With respect for heavy metals, potential endocrine disruptors, it is becoming pretty clear that pollutants originating from Africa are deposited in Florida and the Carribbean (see ScienceDirect.com - Applied Geochemistry - Atmospherically transported elements and deposition in the Southeastern United States: local or transoceanic?) so the old recommendations of collecting rainwater for use in the cages should be viewed with more than a little caution. 

Ed


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

hey Ed, 

I have been thinking about this rain water collecting topic for a while now, even if someone was to collect water in an industrial area, do you think that if they treated it (i.e., running it through carbon filtration and a UV source), this would "clean" some of the more harmful impurities out and sanitize it for use?

just a thought...


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## Wim van den Berg (Mar 5, 2012)

most Neoregelia,s turned to green after flowering ,just look if there,s some dead flower in the center, otherwise is (like said before ) not enough light.


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## Devo (Mar 20, 2012)

Neo Fireball & it's hybrids are some of the hardest neos to keep in full colour. I've had red coloured Fireball hybrids lose their colour when just moved from one shelf in the plastic house to another!

Some spotted neo's & zonated neo's like ampullacea can keep their markings in lower light, but probably the best for low light are the variegated neos like Gorrion (ironically a Fireball hybrid) and striated neo's. Most of the coloured broms will gradually lose colour if the light is not right.

The good thing about mini neo's is that they are very popular, so hybridists are always creating new types, & some of these will prove to keep colour, even in low light situations.

BTW, there is actually a species of green fireball...true story.

Cheers, Andrew.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dartolution said:


> hey Ed,
> 
> I have been thinking about this rain water collecting topic for a while now, even if someone was to collect water in an industrial area, do you think that if they treated it (i.e., running it through carbon filtration and a UV source), this would "clean" some of the more harmful impurities out and sanitize it for use?
> 
> just a thought...


Carbon filtration has it's drawbacks.. for example, it doesn't remove everything you want it to... (see for example http://arc.cnu.edu/documents/As_Kelly_05.pdf)... And unless specifically treated it releases phosphate which has been linked to Spindly leg style deformations in several institutional collections. 

At that point, I'm not sure that there is a benefit over just going with RO/DI (and keep in mind one could invest in a pump to make RO from rainwater if one has a large enough catchment). 

Ed


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

What about pumping it through maybe a mixed bed cation/anion exchange filter? 

All in all, even if these ARE options, processing the water is much more work and inconvienent than what I would wish to invest time into. While its much easier to just use RODI


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dartolution said:


> What about pumping it through maybe a mixed bed cation/anion exchange filter?
> 
> All in all, even if these ARE options, processing the water is much more work and inconvienent than what I would wish to invest time into. While its much easier to just use RODI


That would work for the dissolved minerals but you would also have to either run it through a carbon prefilter or another filter to remove the organics. 

I agree, at that point it is just easier to invest in a RO system since you effectively have to do so anyway just to process the rainwater... 

Ed


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Agreed... 
I have a 5 stage RODI unit I really need to get back up and running... 

It has a presediment filter, .5 micron carbon block, two 60GPD hi-S silica removing RO membranes, and a HI-S mix bed DI cartridge. 
puts out some really REALLY pure water .


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