# Are my frogs skinny? *pics*



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

I want to apologize for the quality of the shots, they're from my camera phone. I've only had these lil'uns for a couple weeks (Since Charlotte repticon). I am a bit worried about their eating habits - one of the cobalts occasionally comes out to eat when I feed dusted FF's, the other cobalt and the azure usually run away. I know they're eating because I've seen them hunting among the reindeer moss but I don't know if they're getting enough (or if they're getting any nutrients from the supplement dust). Would you experienced folks look at these photos and tell me if my frogs look healthy? Also, any ID's on the plants would be helpful. 


































I've already been chastised about mixing morphs. I bought them at repticon without doing the proper amount of research beforehand. The vendor said they'd be ok and I didn't know any different so I went for it. Also, I now know their enclosure is too small. I'm in the process of researching the makings of a bigger tank, most likely a 20l or 29 gallon with a bitchin water feature. However, as all us newbies can attest, there's a LOOOOT of posts out there to sift through to try and find the right info! Oh, and just because everyone loves a full frontal shot (of the viv! What were you thinking?  )








(If I have to deal with looking at the stupid black bar in the front then so do you! =)


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## wesleybrouwer (Apr 17, 2010)

At first glance they aren't.
But are you aware the azureus will be able to cross with the other tincs?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

The frogs look ok to me. 

I agree with the posts you've seen here that you should separate them. But, you've read all about the reasons why so.. 

ETA: did you know about this show in Raleigh? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/so...e-exotic-animal-show-sept-3rd-4th-2011-a.html

If so, we are talking about going out one night. Then we can corner you and teach you the ways of the frog, lol.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

They do not look skinny in my opinion. If you have springtails supplement them with that, they love that shiz.

How many froglets do you have anyway (I'm not gonna yell at you)? I think the enclosure is fine for a grow-out enclosure, but once they start getting bigger you'll find that they'll quickly run out of room. Keep a REALLY close eye to see if they're getting skinnier, or climbing the sides of the enclosure, as these are signs of big stress and will require immediate action.

Once they get bigger, tincs become more and more terrestrial, which means that this enclosure would only be suitable for maybe one of them, judging on the size (what size is it?). The recommended size is 10G per frog, so for two frogs you'd be best off with a 20G horizontal tank. It is reported that keeping adults in groups of more than two in smaller enclosures can lead to the loss of a frog to stress.

So yeah, a lot of people might chastise you for this and that -- but I'd really hate to see you (or anyone) lose a frog for reasons that could be avoided. Don't hesitate to post more questions if you got them.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Thanks for not beating me up about mixing morphs! Yes, I do plan on separating them but I'm not yet sure of the specifics. Plus, they're pretty young so I figure I have at least a couple months... If the dwarf guinea cobalts turn out to be a pair then I'll prolly keep them in their own tank with the azure in this small one. I figure I'll work on making a real, permanent home that a few frogs would be happy to make babies in while attempting to learn the basics in the current setup and then decide what's best from there.
I knew about the show, but the thread frogfaced just linked made me decide to go! It would be friggin FANTASTIC if I could meet up with some "real" froggers at the Raleigh show! I have so much to learn it's ridiculous.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

I haven't added any microfauna although that's something I plan to remedy in the near future. I am hoping to find some local froggers that will let me seed my tank with some of their substrate to get all those awesome little buggies started. 
I have three froglets, 2 dwarf new guinea cobalts and an azureus. The tank is a small exo terra, I believe it's about 11 inches cubed.
Does anyone have an example of a skinny frog vs. a fat frog I can look at? I'm not sure where to look on their bodies to measure their chubbiness (or lack thereof). Their bellies look fat but their hip bones are very prominent and their limbs look like twigs!


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

Beautiful frogs! They look fine to me. You will enjoy them a lot more when they have their own tanks.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I agree with the majority...the frogs look fine! I don't have pics...but I have received very skinny frogs before and these guys don't come close. I'm not seeing "hip" bones in the pics...if you mean the arch in their back, that's a common look for tincs. You're on the right track here. Just keep reading everything you can and you'll learn a lot.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Ive posted this before, a tip I learned from Mitch. For a nice fatty food (use sparingly), Maggots!! Make a smaller then normal fruit fly culture, dont add coffee filter or excelsior. In a few days the cup will be covered in maggots. Scrape off maggots with a flat stick (popsicle is my fav), pinch o' vitamin dust, add to viv in a film canister cap. BAM! McMaggot with cheese. Your frogs will be as fat as americas youth.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

2-3 oow Leuc







2-3 oow Tinc
enjoy these moments, when they are small. Next thing you know, they will be bigger then you and asking for the keys to your car..........


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Your frogs are fatties. You don't need to feed them fatty foods (like termites or maggots) in order to keep them healthy. Keep an eye on them and make sure they don't get too skinny (there will be no question if one of them starts to lose weight or stops growing at the rate the others are growing).

Also, thanks for being willing to remedy the mixing situation. It's always great to find those newer froggers who are willing to do the research and put in the effort to do what's best for their frogs. With that attitude, PM me any time for tips or tricks or advice


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## Zoomie (Jul 3, 2011)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Your frogs are fatties.......


I do believe that SmackoftheGods just told you that termites do it fact make your frog's butt look big.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Agreed with Jake, don't fatten up the "fatties" 

Also, LOVE that second pic Mordoria. What a regal looking frog. Reminds me of Lion King on top of Pride Rock... I can almost hear the theme song when I look at the little guy.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Yea, Mordoria's pic is pretty majestic.

I think I'm learning how to culture FF's the hard way. My original FF culture stopped producing and I think I used too much yeast in the culture I started last week (it smells really yeasty when I take off the lid there are no adult FF's). Luckily there's a Petco nearby that sells FF cultures for about $10. Normally I'd never give them a penny because of how they treat their animals but I was left with barely a fly to go around so I got a jar from them and started a new culture the same day. This time I only used about 10 grains of yeast for the new culture. Hopefully this one will do better!

I do have a couple questions. First, how deep can a water feature be? I'd like to have a small "lake" with some cherry shrimp and maybe small fish. I've heard that PDF's easily drown, but I've also seen a lot of vivs with deep water features. Can anyone clear that up for me?

Second, what should I do to make sure the tank is ready for the dwarf cobalt tincs to breed? I've found lots of threads that say "my tincs bred!" or "I'm going to raise them" or "I'm going to let the parents raise them", but I can't find much detail on what they need to breed, what the difference is between parent raised and doing it my self, things like that. Any advice would be welcome!

Third, what's the best way to make a false back wall outside the tank? I was thinking about making the false bottom out of egg crate then making a false back, also out of egg crate, and using GS on the egg crate to fancify it. Any suggestions?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Shinosuke said:


> First, how deep can a water feature be? I'd like to have a small "lake" with some cherry shrimp and maybe small fish. I've heard that PDF's easily drown, but I've also seen a lot of vivs with deep water features. Can anyone clear that up for me?
> 
> Second, what should I do to make sure the tank is ready for the dwarf cobalt tincs to breed? I've found lots of threads that say "my tincs bred!" or "I'm going to raise them" or "I'm going to let the parents raise them", but I can't find much detail on what they need to breed, what the difference is between parent raised and doing it my self, things like that. Any advice would be welcome!


People say PDFs drown easily because there is a relatively high number of drowning incidents when deeper water features are utilized. However, darts _do_ swim (not as well as some, but they still swim). Many of the drowning incidents that occur are due to aggression and another frog bullying the other frog in the water feature. This said, you really shouldn't be considering a paludarium unless you're using a rather large tank. Even 40 gallons of space may not make the creation of a large water feature worth it.

Breeding is relatively easy with tincs. Plenty of plants/leaf litter/hides. Mist every day, feed daily, and provide a cocohut with a petrie dish underneath for them to lay eggs. Tincs will not provide parental support beyond deposition, so chances are you'll have to care for tads yourself if you want froglets.


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

2-3 oow Tinc
enjoy these moments, when they are small. Next thing you know, they will be bigger then you and asking for the keys to your car..........[/QUOTE]
LMAO!


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## trevtron2 (Aug 27, 2011)

to me your frogs look great!


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

*Sex my non-skinny frogs? *pics**

Here are some updated pics, can anyone sex these or are they still too young? It's hard to tell here but they've probably doubled in size since those last pics. They usually hang out together in a brom or under the coco hut so I'm really hoping they're a pair. Sorry for the crappy pictures, they're from my camera phone.


























On a random note, their new tank is almost ready. I don't love the water feature but I want to give them more space so I'm going to deal with it. I just need to make a better light fixture and pick up some more plants / leaf litter at repticon next weekend before I put them in there.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Nobody can clear up the opinions about water features. Some experienced froggers will tell you that it is not a danger, period. They say that if a frog is found dead in a water feature, that it was sick and dying anyway. Other experienced froggers tell a different tale. Personally, I am with Jake. After losing what seemed like a perfectly healthy, currently breeding Imitator, I filled in every water feature in every viv I had. Currently, I don't use any water features.
In my opinion, they would rather have the additional hunting areas, well filled with leaf litter.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

I appreciate your advice, Pumilo. The water feature that I have is a very tiny stream leading to a puddle of water about 11x3 inches in a 29 gallon tank. The puddle is filled with pebbles and plants and the water is no more than an inch deep. I'm not saying it's frog proof but I did my best to make it as safe as possible.
Any chance of determining the sex on those two frogs?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

They 'look' like females to me but I think they are still a little young to sex.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Since I (maybe) have 2 females and I'm (maybe) in the market for a male how do I tell the difference between these dwarf cobalt and regular cobalt tincs? I already spoke with the people I originally got these frogs from and they won't have any males available atm or in the foreseeable future.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

A little bump, plus some more pictures. Sorry for the shoddy quality, and please keep in mind that the tank has a lot of growing in to do. I've got some java moss and riccia that are still changing to emersed growth near the water area on the bottom right. IMHO it's very patchy and ugly looking, I really hope they start growing in soon. I also need to get a fan in there for some air movement.
Here's a FTS, didn't realize this was so washed out looking till I got it on the computer. Does anyone have a suggestion to help me take some clearer shots (besides not using my camera phone)? I took one with the tank light off but all you can see is my reflection.









This brom was completely green when I got it at repticon on 1-7, is it possible it's getting too much light?








This is the same brom at a different angle that shows the color a bit better. I'm not very good with color differentiation but it looks almost pink instead of red.









This brom was starting to flower when I got it at the same show but for some reason the flowers have all melted/rotted. It's sitting directly beside the one that turned all red. 









It's really hard to tell because of how washed out it is but it looks like there's a bit of sphagnum that's starting to come back to life here, I'm pretty stoked about it.









A shot from the top-right. Quick note to those of you who read my other recent post, the frog that was staying near the top of the tank finally moved down to the coco hut.









This little grey water bowl is my feeding station. I usually keep some fruit there and dump my dusted feeders on it so they don't muddy up the tank. Added bonus: Turns out pineapple makes a great breeding ground for maggots!


yummy

I've got some questions about plant suggestions / placement, but I'll hold off on those until I can get some clearer photos.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

mordoria said:


> Ive posted this before, a tip I learned from Mitch. For a nice fatty food (use sparingly), Maggots!! Make a smaller then normal fruit fly culture, dont add coffee filter or excelsior. In a few days the cup will be covered in maggots. Scrape off maggots with a flat stick (popsicle is my fav), pinch o' vitamin dust, add to viv in a film canister cap. BAM! McMaggot with cheese. Your frogs will be as fat as americas youth.


do you think tree frogs would go for this diet...or are the maggots not lively enough/too small for them to be attractive to them???


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

Looks like you have some lichen in one of the pic's. Does it actually take hold is it ornamental?
Brian


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

In the first few pics, what's that grassy stuff? I like it!


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Judy S said:


> do you think tree frogs would go for this diet...or are the maggots not lively enough/too small for them to be attractive to them???


I would think any bug-eating animal would go for maggots. I'm not sure if you can see them on the pineapple in that video but they're really active, wriggly little things.



BR5 said:


> Looks like you have some lichen in one of the pic's. Does it actually take hold is it ornamental?
> Brian


I haven't seen any lichen - which pic are you referring to?



suztor said:


> In the first few pics, what's that grassy stuff? I like it!


1 ginormous clumps of java moss along the banks of a small stream with a couple small java ferns
2 a few small patches of riccia on the slope leading down to the "pond"
3 anubias in the "pond"
4 there's a bit of riccia on top of a coco hut that's finally starting to grow emersed. It's been out of the water at least a month longer than #2
5 Baby Tears
6 A couple pieces of Sinningia sp. 'Rio das Piedras'
7 Some kind of moss I got from underthecanopyfarms at a show. It was growing well until FF's started shedding dust all over it. I'm hoping it makes a comeback, it's pretty cool stuff.


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

Looks like lichen is behind frog in 1st picture.
Brian


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## sampson1269 (May 4, 2010)

The look normal to me. Only thing i see that i would change is the bromeliad with the rough edges. Ya don't want one of the frogs to get scraped and get a skin infection. maybe i'm just over protective.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Shinosuke said:


> This brom was completely green when I got it at repticon on 1-7, is it possible it's getting too much light?


Low light will cause the broms to turn green, I'd say you have a happy plant there showing it's true colors


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

BR5 said:


> Looks like lichen is behind frog in 1st picture.
> Brian


I think that was called "staghorn moss" and is not alive. FFs love to hide in that stuff and it looks kinda cool but it melted away awhile back. I prefer my fruit feeding stations - it may not be as pretty but it's easier to clean and more effective at keeping the FFs in one place.



freaky_tah said:


> Low light will cause the broms to turn green, I'd say you have a happy plant there showing it's true colors


That's what I was hoping, thanks  The vendor I got this plant from said it was grown outdoors in Florida so I didn't think it was possible that my CFLs would bring out more color than the Florida sun! 



sampson1269 said:


> The look normal to me. Only thing i see that i would change is the bromeliad with the rough edges. Ya don't want one of the frogs to get scraped and get a skin infection. maybe i'm just over protective.


Looking back I didn't clarify this but I moved the dwarf guiana's into the new, larger tank recently. Thanks for the suggestion, though! I considered making a new thread with a different name since I'm no longer worried about their weight but I like having the history of my frogs in one place.


*On a different note*, I found my point and shoot camera (with some photos an ex evidently took without telling me? Bonus!) and snapped some clearer photos of the tank. This photo is from the right side of the tank. I'd appreciate some suggestions on planting the empty places. 

1: I don't like how the driftwood cuts off sharply here and would like to break up the outline by gluing on some really interesting looking flowering plant. It's more than halfway to the the top of the tank so the plant can't get too tall. This spot gets a pretty good amount of light.
2: This is how I access my water feature pump, it's just an egg crate frame covered in gs, silicone, and coco fiber. I would like to cover it in something interesting that won't take over the rest of the tank. This spot doesn't get as much light so I was hoping to get some kind of orchid? 
3: This plant is supposed to be up on the background but fell off into the java moss and I actually kind of like it better there. Does anyone know what it is, and will it do ok sitting on the moss? You can't see it but there's a stream that runs through the middle of the 2 clumps of moss.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

I've been doing some poking around and really like the look of Barbosella handroi (thanks ritersofly for posting this http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pl...ning-cascading-vining-orchids.html#post691242)








Would this be a candidate for spot #2? I'd love to see this take over that whole area!


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

How about Dresslerella pilosissima for spot #1? It gets a pretty high amount of light there and almost dries out in between mistings. Would that work for this plant?


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Any response from some of you plant geniuses out there would be greatly appreciated


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

For poops and laughsies.

FTS. You can't tell but there are tons of leaves in the dark area beneath the wood:









Angled:









Sinnigia blooming, the flowers don't last long but are cute: 









Sphagnum has been re-growing like crazy, especially in this corner:









Cool (imho) photo op. Any preferences on which shot is better? Unfortunately the glass was re-fogging by this point:

















The tank still has a long way to go before I'd consider it finished, or even fully planted, but I think things are going well so far.


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