# So I've figured out my vivarium isnt good for dart frogs, now what?



## Kiki240240 (11 mo ago)

Just like everyone else I've been reading a lot throughout the whole process of creating my vivarium. Unfortunately i only recently found out that the moss carpet and a water feature (small meandering stream) is no good for dart frogs even if everything else in the tank is built with them in mind. Obvious to you guys i know but there's a lot of info to sift through ! Originally thought I could get away with just part of it having the leaf litter base.

I would never want to put frogs somewhere they are not suited to. In the flow sheet the only recommendations for other frogs are firebellied toads if you're set on a paludarium. So I'm wondering if the following would be suited for any type of frog or if it should be kept to plants only as i start on a new one.. Its an 18x18x24 advanced amphibian exoterra with a good drainage layer and a monsoon attached. Lots of hiding spots for tiny frogs, lots of gentle slopes for a big land area and a decent amount of climbing space (could also add more if that would make it more suitable for a certain species).

I was originally planning on thumbnails which is why most hides are on the smaller size and I would prefer smaller frogs generally if there are any that would fit this type of tank.

Thanks so much for any advice!!


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

Theloderma are frogs suitable for paludariums, share a picture and I can give you some ideas.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Hey, don't sweat it too much. You did the right thing in researching further, and luckily, you noticed your errors _before _you got frogs. There are options for paludariums, but if you ask me? If you're truly interested in dart frogs, I say, go for the dart frogs. It's better to build the enclosure for the species you want, and not buy an animal because of a design error (unless you prefer the concept of a paludarium animal). 

18x18x24 are definitely usable dimensions for a variety of darts- I can only say "yeah, you could fit a pair of dendrobates in there if it's properly designed for them" but thumbnails, while more challenging, could be possible if you're really dedicated to them.

Pictures of the viv would be helpful, too- that will let folks give more specific advice about scaling, enclosure design, and so on for accommodating the frogs you want.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Kiki240240 said:


> Just like everyone else I've been reading a lot throughout the whole process of creating my vivarium. Unfortunately i only recently found out that the moss carpet and a water feature (small meandering stream) is no good for dart frogs even if everything else in the tank is built with them in mind. Obvious to you guys i know but there's a lot of info to sift through ! Originally thought I could get away with just part of it having the leaf litter base.
> 
> I would never want to put frogs somewhere they are not suited to. In the flow sheet the only recommendations for other frogs are firebellied toads if you're set on a paludarium. So I'm wondering if the following would be suited for any type of frog or if it should be kept to plants only as i start on a new one.. Its an 18x18x24 advanced amphibian exoterra with a good drainage layer and a monsoon attached. Lots of hiding spots for tiny frogs, lots of gentle slopes for a big land area and a decent amount of climbing space (could also add more if that would make it more suitable for a certain species).
> 
> ...


Fire Bellied toads are awesome frogs and amazing pets. I keep lots of dart frogs, but one of the only pets I kept as a kid that I still keep today is Fire Bellied toads!

You can also post an image of your setup, maybe there are some quick and easy fixes to make it more dart frog appropriate others can suggest.


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## Kiki240240 (11 mo ago)

Okay thank you guys for being so nice about it! 

Its not a paludarium actually its just mossy, quite humid and has a small waterfall leading to a stream with a mild current that goes to an external pump separate from the soil and drainage layer. Its not quite finished yet so ill come back when the pictures I take are representative of what the final thing will be, sorry! Probably should have waited to post til that point, I just got impatient on not knowing if I should be starting another viv simultaneously if this one would never be good for frogs (cause I am so enthusiastic about getting some that I would want to start getting the clean up crew established im the frog friend viv sooner rather than later)

I've heard theloderma are not great for beginners, would you say this is inaccurate? 

I love ranitomeya so much but also super keen on most other frogs as long as ill get to see them out and about every once in a while


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## ZeroHostile (11 mo ago)

Kiki240240 said:


> Okay thank you guys for being so nice about it!
> 
> Its not a paludarium actually its just mossy, quite humid and has a small waterfall leading to a stream with a mild current that goes to an external pump separate from the soil and drainage layer. Its not quite finished yet so ill come back when the pictures I take are representative of what the final thing will be, sorry! Probably should have waited to post til that point, I just got impatient on not knowing if I should be starting another viv simultaneously if this one would never be good for frogs (cause I am so enthusiastic about getting some that I would want to start getting the clean up crew established im the frog friend viv sooner rather than later)
> 
> ...


Just started and did almost the exact same thing! lol... Ended up ditching the water feature after asking about it here, and now we have a tank for frogs (in process) and I have a 10 gallon "moss farm" smdh lol...


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Put some _Therea_ and/or E_rgaula_ and/or _Gyna_ roaches in there!


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

If the water feature doesn't have a lot of water capacity, i.e a small stream, I am genuinely unsure as to what species could make proper use of it. For the most part, I don't know semiaquatics, so I can't tell you for certain- other people will have advice for you on that. 
Personally, I'd just suggest removing it and the moss, and going for dart frogs instead, if they were what got you to build the viv. 

Oh, and don't worry about sharing WIP pictures of your viv- it's quite common to share them here, to get people's thoughts or advice as you're going along. We don't mind seeing incomplete vivs, should you be willing to show them! I do think it would be a good idea to halt construction until you've more conclusively decided what you wish to keep in the viv, so you have less work to undo later.


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## dablock (Aug 7, 2007)

You can probably keep dart frogs in the setup you are describing. Is the small stream isolated from the substrate? As long as the substrate isn't boggy, you're good. I disagree with the current "rule" that you must use leaf litter. Many of today's "rules" should be seen more as suggestions. I began keeping and breeding darts in 2005. We didn't have many "rules" in those days. We figured it out as we went. I began with moss over my substrate and I had no problems with it. I did try leaf litter when it became the thing to do, but I hated the look and the way it destroyed my substrate. Thus, I went back to moss. I no longer try water features as they always cause problems in the long run, but I have tried water features in the past. Unfortunately, most water features begin to leak into the substrate causing swampy conditions which you want to avoid. If you want, you can just not use the water feature, but leave it intact rather than tearing apart the vivarium. Remember that everyone who answers your questions, myself included, are offering suggestions. There are very few set-in-stone rules outside of the need for vitamin supplementation, and temperature and humidity ranges.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

It would really help if you shared a pic. It may be that you can tweak what you've done without a complete tear down and rebuild.


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## Kiki240240 (11 mo ago)

Thanks everyone! I'm sorry I don't have pictures for now but ill send em once I do. in the meantime will take all this into account!


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## Stephanie Nielsen (Nov 23, 2021)

ParrotAlex said:


> Hey, don't sweat it too much. You did the right thing in researching further, and luckily, you noticed your errors _before _you got frogs. There are options for paludariums, but if you ask me? If you're truly interested in dart frogs, I say, go for the dart frogs. It's better to build the enclosure for the species you want, and not buy an animal because of a design error (unless you prefer the concept of a paludarium animal).
> 
> 18x18x24 are definitely usable dimensions for a variety of darts- I can only say "yeah, you could fit a pair of dendrobates in there if it's properly designed for them" but thumbnails, while more challenging, could be possible if you're really dedicated to them.
> 
> Pictures of the viv would be helpful, too- that will let folks give more specific advice about scaling, enclosure design, and so on for accommodating the frogs you want.


Hi there! I'm curious what makes you say thumbnails are more challenging. I ask since I'm new and started with thumbnails which I adore, and am always looking for advice / tips. Thanks


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Stephanie Nielsen said:


> Hi there! I'm curious what makes you say thumbnails are more challenging. I ask since I'm new and started with thumbnails which I adore, and am always looking for advice / tips. Thanks


Oh, mostly just what I've heard from folks here- I haven't kept any myself. But if I've gathered correctly, thumbnails and small darts in general just tend to be a little less forgiving in terms of slip ups, such as temperature or humidity fluctuations- theoretically doable by a dedicated beginner, but not the easiest choice for someone new to darts.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

ParrotAlex said:


> Oh, mostly just what I've heard from folks here- I haven't kept any myself. But if I've gathered correctly, thumbnails and small darts in general just tend to be a little less forgiving in terms of slip ups, such as temperature or humidity fluctuations- theoretically doable by a dedicated beginner, but not the easiest choice for someone new to darts.


Not all small darts! I picked my e. Anthonyi Santa Isabels because they are a small species, but hardier/more forgiving. As a novice, I was interested in thumbnails, but had read they were more sensitive to fluctuations and I didn’t want to risk it. I wouldn’t say I’m not dedicated, but I did start out with a suboptimal tank, a 12x12x18 which proved to be more difficult to work with in terms of managing humidity and temps, so I’m glad I picked a less sensitive type of dart while I navigated that and worked toward upgrading. IME anyway.


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## dablock (Aug 7, 2007)

Stephanie Nielsen said:


> Hi there! I'm curious what makes you say thumbnails are more challenging. I ask since I'm new and started with thumbnails which I adore, and am always looking for advice / tips. Thanks


I didn't start out with thumbs, but I have kept reticulatus, variabilis, vanzolinis. I did find the retics to be a little more difficult as they like the temps higher than many thumbs. Overall, I believe froggers are a bit leery of thumbs because of their small size. When a tinc attempts an escape, it's usually done in slow motion and the frog lands on the floor with a thump and it doesn't hurry off so it's easy to catch. With a thumb, they can escape quickly without a sound and once they land they're gone in a flash. Other than that, I don't find thumbs difficult as most of their needs and food are pretty basic. I do keep my thumbs in an ExoTerra 12x12x18. It's plenty of space for them to explore and live and breed. I haven't kept pumillios, but as a small frog they tend to need larger territories than do thumbs so that may play into the myth of needing a larger vivarium.


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## Chbgator (Nov 21, 2020)

Small water features are fine, just don't make them so the frog cant easily walk out (no climbing involved) and as others have pointed out make sure you isolate it so it doesn't soak your substrate. Mind blowing fact here, in the wild some PDF's deposit their tads in small water areas not just bromeliads, its not a death trap unless you make it one. The moss area is also fine but the frogs will need areas where they can go to without it that is dry. Let them decide where they want to be to regulate themselves, keeping them in a constantly wet area can lead to foot rot. Also as @dablock pointed out things change, people kept frogs successfully in all kinds of different conditions before the "acceptable rules" were put in place by who knows. YEARS ago when I first looked into PDF's the essential enclosure component was bentonite clay, yes cat litter... Had to have it, frogs would shrivel up and die without it! How many enclosures do you see now with clay involved as an essential part of the set up? Look at where the frogs live in the wild and do your best to mimic it in a controllable way. Most people avoid some things like water features because they can be a pain to deal with and it takes more preparation and maintenance for the upkeep. Do what you want just research it, sleep on it then research some more. Never be in a hurry to get frogs in as fast as you can. Make your plan, build it then let it set for a few weeks or months and see what works or doesn't before you get your frogs. Its much easier than getting them in the enclosure then deciding or discovering some aspect of your build just doesn't work as you planned and now you have to keep them in something you didn't have set up ahead of time while you redo the permanent enclosure.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Chbgator said:


> Small water features are fine, just don't make them so the frog cant easily walk out (no climbing involved) and as others have pointed out make sure you isolate it so it doesn't soak your substrate. Mind blowing fact here, in the wild some PDF's deposit their tads in small water areas not just bromeliads, its not a death trap unless you make it one. The moss area is also fine but the frogs will need areas where they can go to without it that is dry. Let them decide where they want to be to regulate themselves, keeping them in a constantly wet area can lead to foot rot. Also as @dablock pointed out things change, people kept frogs successfully in all kinds of different conditions before the "acceptable rules" were put in place by who knows. YEARS ago when I first looked into PDF's the essential enclosure component was bentonite clay, yes cat litter... Had to have it, frogs would shrivel up and die without it! How many enclosures do you see now with clay involved as an essential part of the set up? Look at where the frogs live in the wild and do your best to mimic it in a controllable way. Most people avoid some things like water features because they can be a pain to deal with and it takes more preparation and maintenance for the upkeep. Do what you want just research it, sleep on it then research some more. Never be in a hurry to get frogs in as fast as you can. Make your plan, build it then let it set for a few weeks or months and see what works or doesn't before you get your frogs. Its much easier than getting them in the enclosure then deciding or discovering some aspect of your build just doesn't work as you planned and now you have to keep them in something you didn't have set up ahead of time while you redo the permanent enclosure.


In fairness, calcium-bearing clay substrate is still very much a thing, and I know for a fact users here have tried the technique with success. I think it might be more of an Oophaga thing, but I wouldn't know- ABG is way more my speed.

Plus, while the hobby does sometimes change standards, I'd find it inadvisable for a beginner to attempt a deviation from the current "standard" in favor of something experimental with historically mixed results, especially given that deviation is for something in favor of the keeper, not the frogs- something which is possible, but again, is added risk. Water features are certainly something that's possible in theory, but they're perhaps best left to more experienced keepers who will know all the warning signs. Worth noting that a lot of the experienced keepers I've talked to still prefer to skip water features- might just have something to do with the fact it's just _more _parameters to deal with, and something a little bit simpler is desired.

For the beginner keeper in question, some added clarification as to _why _water features are generally avoided:
In the wild, frogs will definitely deposit their eggs in bodies of water other than bromeliads, but the frogs have plenty of room to avoid those small puddles and other such bodies of water, where they exist. In captivity, frogs generally have a few inches, maybe a foot or two at best, from which to distance themselves from water- which the adult frogs have no use for whatsoever. Generally it seems darts prefer leaf litter layers, which provide places to retreat to for shelter and security, and are prime ground for hunting and foraging.
Not to mention, the related risks, such as leaking/wicking into the soil, humidity going too high, the water becoming toxic through an accumulation of pollutants, some slight error in the design which causes a tad or frog to get stuck and drown, etc etc. All things with solutions, but if you want a simpler experience with less parameters to worry about, I'd just skip the water feature.


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## Chbgator (Nov 21, 2020)

ParrotAlex said:


> In fairness, calcium-bearing clay substrate is still very much a thing, and I know for a fact users here have tried the technique with success. I think it might be more of an Oophaga thing, but I wouldn't know- ABG is way more my speed.
> 
> Plus, while the hobby does sometimes change standards, I'd find it inadvisable for a beginner to attempt a deviation from the current "standard" in favor of something experimental with historically mixed results, especially given that deviation is for something in favor of the keeper, not the frogs- something which is possible, but again, is added risk. Water features are certainly something that's possible in theory, but they're perhaps best left to more experienced keepers who will know all the warning signs. Worth noting that a lot of the experienced keepers I've talked to still prefer to skip water features- might just have something to do with the fact it's just _more _parameters to deal with, and something a little bit simpler is desired.
> 
> ...


I think you missed the part where pointed out not making the water feature a death trap they cant easily walk out of and to isolate it from the substrate so it doesn't get saturated. I think what will help newcomers to the hobby is to explain these things in better detail from the beginning rather than the method most seem to take which is the over dramatic omg the frogs are all going to die approach. Just because it's something you don't do or don't want to try doesn't make it a bad idea because some knuckle head made a pit filled with water his frog couldn't get out of. There are plenty of examples out there of water features in PDF enclosures and yes there is a wrong way and a right way to go about them but the trend here is to just oppose it with no clear detail as to the right or wrong way is. This site has the opportunity to educate more than what it does of condemning all those who have a different idea other than it can only be wood, leaves, plants and ABG mix. At the current rate and the number of posts as examples of those interested in the hobby and sharing an idea and being lambasted for it your going to end up like the rest of the other stagnant forums that are dead and gone and people will start using every wanna be YouTube star as the go to for their information.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Chbgator said:


> I think you missed the part where pointed out not making the water feature a death trap they cant easily walk out of and to isolate it from the substrate so it doesn't get saturated. I think what will help newcomers to the hobby is to explain these things in better detail from the beginning rather than the method most seem to take which is the over dramatic omg the frogs are all going to die approach. Just because it's something you don't do or don't want to try doesn't make it a bad idea because some knuckle head made a pit filled with water his frog couldn't get out of. There are plenty of examples out there of water features in PDF enclosures and yes there is a wrong way and a right way to go about them but the trend here is to just oppose it with no clear detail as to the right or wrong way is. This site has the opportunity to educate more than what it does of condemning all those who have a different idea other than it can only be wood, leaves, plants and ABG mix. At the current rate and the number of posts as examples of those interested in the hobby and sharing an idea and being lambasted for it your going to end up like the rest of the other stagnant forums that are dead and gone and people will start using every wanna be YouTube star as the go to for their information.


No, no- again, I'm not saying those things are impossible to do- they're just not the easiest things to get right. Even with instructions, people will make errors- an improperly sealed water feature may begin to leak, or what seems like it can be easily escaped from might actually be a challenge for the frogs; and for a complete newbie, these problems may be harder to pick up on or to solve, especially if they're on a tight budget. "Don't make it a death trap" and "Don't make it leak water" are not simply "put square peg into square hole" for people whose experience with keeping animals is rather limited.

Not everyone has a huge knack for DIY/vivarium construction right off the bat, which is perfectly ok, it's just best to go for the simple, more foolproof route vs the more challenging, complex one. It's simply easier, when someone says "I want to keep dart frogs, how do I make an enclosure for them?" to start off with the standard ABG, leaf litter, plants, hardscape route, much the same way you suggest they steer towards the more beginner friendly species like Dendrobates. When they've got that down, and are eagerly eyeing something more challenging, then they can go for the more challenging stuff. 

I think that the best way to make this hobby welcoming and accepting to newcomers is to make dart frog keeping as simple and as accessible as possible- I've been in fishkeeping communities where I was continually advised towards _very _complex, _very _beginner-unfriendly, and _very _inadvisable (if theoretically achievable) routes towards keeping my fish- and all that resulted in was that the hobby became difficult, expensive, and frustrating, rather than a relaxing and pleasant hobby. I would much rather I get barked at for considering keeping cherry shrimp with a betta or the like, rather than being _told _I should do those things. Would have saved me a decent chunk of time and money.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Chbgator said:


> I think you missed the part where pointed out not making the water feature a death trap they cant easily walk out of and to isolate it from the substrate so it doesn't get saturated. I think what will help newcomers to the hobby is to explain these things in better detail from the beginning rather than the method most seem to take which is the over dramatic omg the frogs are all going to die approach. Just because it's something you don't do or don't want to try doesn't make it a bad idea because some knuckle head made a pit filled with water his frog couldn't get out of. There are plenty of examples out there of water features in PDF enclosures and yes there is a wrong way and a right way to go about them but the trend here is to just oppose it with no clear detail as to the right or wrong way is. This site has the opportunity to educate more than what it does of condemning all those who have a different idea other than it can only be wood, leaves, plants and ABG mix. At the current rate and the number of posts as examples of those interested in the hobby and sharing an idea and being lambasted for it your going to end up like the rest of the other stagnant forums that are dead and gone and people will start using every wanna be YouTube star as the go to for their information.


I think we have a complete philosophical difference.

What benefit do the frogs get out of taking up some of the 2.25 square foot of floorspace that they have access to with a water feature that they don't use?

I would rather give the safe advice, even if that means someone doesn't want to enter the Hobby because they've been advised not to keep 8 species together, not to put a lake in their glass cube, etc. versus giving advice that could lead to dead frogs.


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## Chbgator (Nov 21, 2020)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I think we have a complete philosophical difference.
> 
> What benefit do the frogs get out of taking up some of the 2.25 square foot of floorspace that they have access to with a water feature that they don't use?
> 
> I would rather give the safe advice, even if that means someone doesn't want to enter the Hobby because they've been advised not to keep 8 species together, not to put a lake in their glass cube, etc. versus giving advice that could lead to dead frogs.


Thanks for proving my point.. She specifically said its not a paladarium and its a small stream but as per the norm it's blown up into something she has specifically said its not. How you equate small stream into a lake is beyond me. There was also no mention of cohabitating any animals in her post but as broken records usually go your stuck on the same spot on the record with the same repetitive items the OP has not even considered or mentioned for that matter.. 

Believe it or not if someone wants a frog they will get a frog. If they don't feel welcome here or start getting criticism for things they haven't done or aren't even considering they will go somewhere else where the answers they are looking for get answered in a way that feels constructive and informative and not like they are all of a sudden put in a place to have to defend themselves. You are not doing anyone any benefit the way you treat people looking for advice. I've spoken to a few new people here through IM who didn't want anything to do with this site anymore due to the way you specifically, handle things when they asked a question. You would be surprised the way people react and welcome advice when its given to them appropriately and with more detailed explanation and not slapped in the face with a short answer that sounds more like a scolding for even considering what they asked. 



ParrotAlex said:


> No, no- again, I'm not saying those things are impossible to do- they're just not the easiest things to get right. Even with instructions, people will make errors- an improperly sealed water feature may begin to leak, or what seems like it can be easily escaped from might actually be a challenge for the frogs; and for a complete newbie, these problems may be harder to pick up on or to solve, especially if they're on a tight budget. "Don't make it a death trap" and "Don't make it leak water" are not simply "put square peg into square hole" for people whose experience with keeping animals is rather limited.
> 
> Not everyone has a huge knack for DIY/vivarium construction right off the bat, which is perfectly ok, it's just best to go for the simple, more foolproof route vs the more challenging, complex one. It's simply easier, when someone says "I want to keep dart frogs, how do I make an enclosure for them?" to start off with the standard ABG, leaf litter, plants, hardscape route, much the same way you suggest they steer towards the more beginner friendly species like Dendrobates. When they've got that down, and are eagerly eyeing something more challenging, then they can go for the more challenging stuff.
> 
> I think that the best way to make this hobby welcoming and accepting to newcomers is to make dart frog keeping as simple and as accessible as possible- I've been in fishkeeping communities where I was continually advised towards _very _complex, _very _beginner-unfriendly, and _very _inadvisable (if theoretically achievable) routes towards keeping my fish- and all that resulted in was that the hobby became difficult, expensive, and frustrating, rather than a relaxing and pleasant hobby. I would much rather I get barked at for considering keeping cherry shrimp with a betta or the like, rather than being _told _I should do those things. Would have saved me a decent chunk of time and money.



I understand some projects can be difficult but treating everyone as if they are inept and will fail or you think it will be to hard or expensive for them doesn't help and it's not up to you or anyone but them to determine. If things were explained in greater detail as to why its not a good idea but if you do make sure do do X,Y and Z they may sit back and say "wow that's more than I bargained for I'll stick to the easy method" or "I better plan this out better" or "that route costs to much for my budget" all of which keeps the discussion going and benefits everyone involved. You may also find more people post in the DIY section with the most cost effective and least likely to fail way to do X as well as post about failures so people learn what not to do which also benefits everyone. 

If its one thing I've noticed here it's that more focus needs to go towards educating people when they ask a question like capable adults and not discouraging them because you think you are saving them form what you perceive as potential failure if that's truly what all the feedback is focused on. As I've already stated, if you turn them off here they will go somewhere else or worse, go at it with no knowledge at all and then they will be more likely fail than if they had gotten at least some advice.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

If someone is unhappy with the feedback they have obtained being unfavorable with their desires to do something which is perhaps unwise, they will likely move on to other, increasingly unreliable sources of information- this is true. But it it not the fault of the first person giving feedback, but the person not willing to accept the feedback until they've found a "source" which they find favors their own personal desires. 

I think it's worth noting that in no case in this thread did the OP seem at all upset with the advice they had been given thus far- in fact, _they_ were the one who came to the conclusion that water feature + darts may not have been a great idea, and had thus asked about _other_ frog species that could be kept in their viv. I genuinely cannot think of any posts on things such as cohabiting, water features, or anything of the sort, wherein the topic was not properly explained- or at the very least, the suggestion to use the search tab was given (which is definitely something people could use to save time- a lot of common questions are easily answered using it.)

And I do not know how else one would discuss things such as a water feature with beginners unless the beginner specifically asked about water features. I think it would be excess information that is not actually _needed_- telling someone the specifics of how a paludarium or water feature SHOULD be built, only to advise them against the paludarium/water feature entirely (for good reasons) is just wasting the beginner's time. Easier to just say "I suggest not doing this- here's a simpler and safer option." If they ask for elaboration, then elaboration can be given.

Conversely, if one was dedicated enough to a project like building a paludarium, and had the know-how and funds to make it happen- one would think they would also be able to find plenty of resources on the topic of their own accord. Searching these forums is going to give a pretty quick impression that it's not the place for getting tons of advice and experience on managing paludariums or water features, since, quite simply, most keepers here choose not to use them, for one reason or another. Easy to look at that and just move on to other resources.

Anyway, I think this thread may have about run it's course- to the OP, I would like to apologize for this derailment, and note that I, and many other people in this forum, are still more than willing to serve as helpful advice to the best of our ability, regardless of your choice on whether or not you will keep your water feature.
And to the mods, I suggest this topic may need to be locked. It's certainly become a bit derailed by now.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

ParrotAlex said:


> And to the mods, I suggest this topic may need to be locked. It's certainly become a bit derailed by now.


Thanks for the suggestion, and you're right about the derailment. There are other ways to address that issue that enable @Kiki240240 's useful and overall friendly thread to continue if they want it to, so that's what we'll do for now.


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## Dr. Manhattan (Oct 28, 2016)

Mossy Frogs are easy as long as you keep the enclosure including water below 75F and weekly water changes with water that's a bit tannin stained, pH range in the 6's. At least that's what I did and I had a pretty good breeding colony until I sold them.


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## Wildfire (Oct 29, 2021)

Kiki240240 said:


> Just like everyone else I've been reading a lot throughout the whole process of creating my vivarium. Unfortunately i only recently found out that the moss carpet and a water feature (small meandering stream) is no good for dart frogs even if everything else in the tank is built with them in mind. Obvious to you guys i know but there's a lot of info to sift through ! Originally thought I could get away with just part of it having the leaf litter base.
> 
> I would never want to put frogs somewhere they are not suited to. In the flow sheet the only recommendations for other frogs are firebellied toads if you're set on a paludarium. So I'm wondering if the following would be suited for any type of frog or if it should be kept to plants only as i start on a new one.. Its an 18x18x24 advanced amphibian exoterra with a good drainage layer and a monsoon attached. Lots of hiding spots for tiny frogs, lots of gentle slopes for a big land area and a decent amount of climbing space (could also add more if that would make it more suitable for a certain species).
> 
> ...


I was in the same situation. I made a 20 long vivarium with 2 waterfalls. I made sure the water at bottom had sand & little rocks to make it shallow enough. They loved it. I also had some nice moss. I removed one waterfall because they are a pain in the [email protected]@ to keep maintaining the pumps. Now I have one beautiful waterfall. I have them in a large round glass terraium now, because my sealant leaked & I got a waterlogged land area! What a pain in the butt! I have to reseal today & wait another 2 days to cure. I would recommend that you just put a bunch of leaf litter on top of the moss. It sucks that you need to cover it to keep the froggy legs dry.


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## Wildfire (Oct 29, 2021)

Wildfire said:


> I was in the same situation. I made a 20 long vivarium with 2 waterfalls. I made sure the water at bottom had sand & little rocks to make it shallow enough. They loved it. I also had some nice moss. I removed one waterfall because they are a pain in the [email protected]@ to keep maintaining the pumps. Now I have one beautiful waterfall. I have them in a large round glass terrarium now, because my sealant leaked & I got a waterlogged land area! What a pain in the butt! I have to reseal today & wait another 2 days to cure. I would recommend that you just put a bunch of leaf litter on top of the moss. It sucks that you need to cover it to keep the froggy legs dry.


By the way I forgot to mention that mine are Dart frogs. dendrobates Azureus & contrary to what most say, mine did fine in the water. Like I said I put sand & pebbles so that it was not deep at all. It slopes up to land & spiderwood was placed so that they could climb on it. They never use the wood. They love the water areas.


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## Lance Larsen (Jul 4, 2021)

So agree with the others that say that there is NOT just ONE way to have a vivarium / paludarium in which Dart Frogs can thrive!

Our five Azureus have been doing extremely well in our 180 gallon setup for over a year now. It has a moss floor (but isn't soaking wet, so no foot issues) and has a ton of land space, logs they climb through / hunt in fruit flies, etc and climbing areas for them. They don't directly use the water (in which we have little shrimp, snails and miniature plecos) but it does do an excellent job of keeping both humidity and temperature stable - and thus all the plants (which they do benefit from, at least in an enrichment fashion) do wonderfully.

If you want a Dart Frog that will use the water - look at the Santa Isabel dart frogs - they'll lay move their tadpoles to the water feature and breed readily. Their call is pretty, but on the louder side - so wouldn't recommend for your living room - but we love them too 

Keep hoppy, and enjoy your frogs...


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I will point out for the benefit of the OP (and anyone else who hasn't read all the relevant threads here) that aquatics (snails, shrimp, fish) are asymptomatic carriers of pathogens that can and do infect dart frogs. 

After 30 years experience keeping aquatics (a pathogen-infested trade if there ever was one), and somewhat recently getting deeper into the literature on herp pathogens, there is no way that I would expose my darts to aquatics.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

Lance Larsen said:


> If you want a Dart Frog that will use the water - look at the Santa Isabel dart frogs - they'll lay move their tadpoles to the water feature and breed readily. Their call is pretty, but on the louder side - so wouldn't recommend for your living room - but we love them too


SIs will breed readily without water too! But for a lot of the reasons highlighted in this thread, I think it’s better to give them as much usable terrestrial space as possible and skip the water feature. Just because they’re smaller darts, people think that they can just be in a large group with minimal space. While they are more group friendly than some darts, I noticed great improvements among even my froglets when I was able to separate them into smaller groups with more tank space. And risk of drowning and pathogens may be slim, but still potential issues. Like, yes it’s true that in the wild they may be found near streams, but that’s on a basis of coming and going and not being stuck near/on the water at all times, as in a viv. Plus, regarding the noise, they’re probably going to be that much more noisy and unmanageably prolific if you can’t even attempt to have a “dry” season in your tank.

That being said, I don’t think they’re a terrible species for a living room, just definitely not a bedroom.


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