# Why Sphagnum Moss To Ship On?



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Every frog I have received via mail has come on sphagnum moss(long fiber). The frogs are in good health(except some bad winter ships...), but the fibers are always stuck on the frog. Why does no one use dampened paper towels as an alternative? It's not like the frogs will be in transit long enough to soil them... I would imagine dampened, and crumpled towels would provide not only more cushion, but for the frogs, a better sense of security as they can retreat into the moist folds of the paper towel(s). The main benefit... Not having to worry about a new frog covered in moss fibers! So why the sphag????(Aside from the fact it is incredibly cheap at Home Depot and the like...) 

Thanks!

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

When, (not if) your box of frogs tumbles and lands upside down, a wet, folded paper towel can come loose and smother your little traveler. The spagnum simply acts as a shock absorber when he tumbles in it. This is also a reason it is a good idea to add a live leaf of something. It helps to keep a gap, or a cave/airway, keeping the sphagnum from compressing too much.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

I use paper towel and a live leaf or two.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> When, (not if) your box of frogs tumbles and lands upside down, a wet, folded paper towel can come loose and smother your little traveler. The spagnum simply acts as a shock absorber when he tumbles in it. This is also a reason it is a good idea to add a live leaf of something. It helps to keep a gap, or a cave/airway, keeping the sphagnum from compressing too much.


I have shipped a few amphibians this way, and they always are reported to arrive in great condition. I NEVER would use WET paper towels...I am talking about a moist, flufffy, crumple of it. If it tumbled, the frog would have multipe gaps to either get above the moist towels, or within a pocket. Perhaps, I am wrong, I have never shipped a dart frog yet... *I thank you for the feedback*! It seems the moss would "tumble" in just the same manner(if a live sprig was not included, as you said...). Only one supplier sent frogs with live plant cuttings... Again, Thanks!

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Tony said:


> I use paper towel and a live leaf or two.


Out of curiousity, why do you prefer the method?

All my thanks!

JBear


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

every standard shipping medium ive heard of has been both praised and heavily criticized.

sphagnum 
leaves
papertowels

these are the most common ones. 

sphagnum not only acts as a cushion but it also holds moisture and temperature (to a degree). it has also been implicated in a number of shipping related deaths
leaves can aid in avoiding asphyxiation due to movement in the box, but dont hold moisture as well
papertowels are similar to sphagnum but you have one solid piece of medium rather than many smaller pieces. 

ive gotten frogs shipped w/ every method but i choose to ship with either papertowels and leaves or leaves alone now due to the reports of sphag killing the frogs.

james


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

james67 said:


> ..._ choose to ship with either papertowels and leaves or leaves alone now due to the reports of sphag killing the frogs.
> james_


_

I have not seen the reports, but I am very interested! If you wouldn't mind sharing, that'd be great! I assume it is random posts(in hindsight), but if there is one that stands out, I would love to read it!

On a side note:

I have received a mere 4 shipments of darts via mail. 

1st: A P. vittatus shipped on shagnum moss(long fiber) and a sprig of live plant. DOA.

2nd: A replacement Vitt shipped in exactly the same way. Arrived with back leg maladies and has recovered, but with effects. 

3rd: Based on the OUTSTANDING customer service, I purchased a second Vitt, which, again, was shipped in the same manner, and arrived in perfect health(aside from sphag sticking all over the frog).

**Before I continue I want to say, the fault was never the seller's... UPS FAILED to honor overnight shipping quote, the box(es) were all out on time as promised.**

4th: 2 P.bicolor shipped on Sphag(long fiber) alone. Arrived in perfect health, but covered in sphag. 

I would imagine this would be an incredible source of stress for these frogs... We have all seen a frog angrily swat a FF off.... Not to mention moss absorbs moisture, so the moss sticking to the frog is effectively drying it out by means of absorbtion. 

Thanks again!

JBear_


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

It's already been said about the potential risks of all types of shipping...

I've received frogs in sphagnum and paper towels in the past. I personally prefer paper towels. A single layer of paper towel along the bottom, up to the sides, and pinched by the lid make it harder to "come up" and stress the frog. Adding a leaf (something we usually do when shipping out) shouldn't be a problem so long as it's something light. 

Whenever we receive a frog shipped on paper towels with a leaf cutting or two - the frog is always sitting on the leaf cutting. I feel like it's a bit of a comfort for the frog, but I'm probably over thinking it.


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## brod322 (May 27, 2011)

I have yet to ship but have received in all of the packaging methods above. I've particularly like the live leaves with a paper towel. The leaves seem to help hold the paper towel down, cushion from any bumps and a place to hide.


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## Logqan (Sep 24, 2008)

I have also seen and received many of these methods. I have even received deli cups full of cuttings and obviously misted right before closing. This seemed like it worked perfect. It was plenty humid and had enough cuttings that the frogs couldn't really flop around in the cup. 

When I ship I also use sphag. I put a small amount in the deli cup and then fill the cup with water then drain it to remove all the small pieces of sphag to reduce pieces being stuck to the frogs as well as just leaving the medium slightly damp. Then I usually add cuttings of plants that root really fast like wandering jew. The roots hold the sphag together. I usually set this up about a week in advance to shipping and then mist it slightly when I add the frogs. I could see that if you regularly ship lots of frogs this might kill off your plant supply but works great for me.

Logan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

My comment from a different thread (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/thunderdome/68794-taron-langhover-5.html)




Ed said:


> I've shipped stuff in fruit fly containers with out any issue. The main thing is to add some padding. I use soaked and then squeezed out long fiber sphagnum that has been fluffed up so it isn't in a solid mat. That has worked well for me over the years. Between home and working in the pet trade and zoos, I have recieved frogs in everything from moistened pillow cases, to 2-liter soda bottles, to pal pens to small condiment cups and a number of things inbetween. The biggest problem I've seen in more than 20 years typically was the result of putting a bunch of soaked sphagnum into the containers. As the container is shaken around the frogs often spend a lot of time attempting to get free of the sphagnum.
> 
> Ed


 


Ed said:


> Lets look at the behaviors of the frogs that are relevent here. Dendrobatids tend to look to hide in leaf litter, or bromeliad axils or other spots which provide contact on more than one side of the frogs. These tactile reassurances are what reassures the frogs. This is why the various methods which provide tactile conditions work.
> 
> With that said, has anyone tried lining a container with bubble wrap? This has been used with other species of anurans (for example Puerto Rican Crested Toads).


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## Molch (Jul 15, 2011)

ok, I have zero experience in shipping frogs, but I have received a couple of newt shipments where the shipper used a layer of moist paper towel and those fluffy, feather-light, slightly absorbent packing peanuts. The packing peanuts hold some moisture but also provide good support. They would have to be he kind that does not dissolve when moist of course. They work very well for newts, so maybe they might work for frogs too?


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## Tadbit (Jul 16, 2010)

Best posted method for shipping, in my opinion, was provided by our own Pumilio. It also talks about using phase 22 panels.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66509-shipping-phase-panels-example.html


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

I have always been concerned about the use of paper towels.

Here's why...
they are VERY acidic when wet.

Don't believe me? 

Cut snippet of paper towel, put it in a small vial of distilled water. 
Wait short time... and then test pH.

It will be below the range of your normal fresh water pH test kit.

Now...
For those forum folks that like to disagree and debate...
Yes, you can argue that sphagnum moss, etc. can be fairly acidic too.
That is true.

But I ask you: 

Exactly WHAT manufacturing chemicals or compounds are leaching out of paper towels to make them that acidic? 

And... is that something that can be absorbed through frogs sensitive skin?

Plus, who wants a valuable frog sitting in that 24 + hours while already being stressed by shipping?

Whatever it is... paper towels ain't never gonna touch my frogs. 

Cheers,
Todd


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Did you check the pH of unbleached paper towels? Those are the ones that are typically used in institutional settings due to the leachage of chlorinated compounds from bleached papertowels. 

Ed


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I agree with Ed, paper towels(unbleached) have long been employed in temporary housing, and to some extent, life-long housing. I honestly don't see how you draw such a distinct difference between the 2 acidic components(PT and Sphagnum). Perhaps you are right that PTs will break down and go bad much faster, but certainly not overnight. People who use PTs will generally change them out every 2 to 3 days. I do not use this method for housing, but I do prefer to ship on it. But if a buyer/friend/etc, would prefer sphag, I would be happy to comply. 

JBear


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> I agree with Ed, paper towels(unbleached) have long been employed in temporary housing, and to some extent, life-long housing. I honestly don't see how you draw such a distinct difference between the 2 acidic components(PT and Sphagnum). Perhaps you are right that PTs will break down and go bad much faster, but certainly not overnight. People who use PTs will generally change them out every 2 to 3 days. I do not use this method for housing, but I do prefer to ship on it. But if a buyer/friend/etc, would prefer sphag, I would be happy to comply.
> 
> JBear


There are numerous instances in the literature of instutional care of caudates in which the unbleached towels are changed every week to two weeks. 
Somewhere the hobby has latched onto the idea that if they aren't changed frequently that they become full of bad bacteria. In reality those same bacteria are also found in/on all substrates...they just aren't as obvious as the substrates don't break down as readily. If you remove the towels and only rinse the containers, a biofilm develops that converts ammonia to nitrate.... 
If you are spilling vitamin supplement onto the towels then they should be changed or if you are leaving a lot of uneaten food items, the towels should be changed... 

Ed


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Ed said:


> Did you check the pH of unbleached paper towels? Those are the ones that are typically used in institutional settings due to the leachage of chlorinated compounds from bleached papertowels.
> 
> Ed


are you are saying those have a neutral pH?
I don't have any on hand to test


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Venutus1 said:


> are you are saying those have a neutral pH?
> I don't have any on hand to test


I'd have to look at the references but I believe that Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry has the relevent information. 

If you go to google scholar and google salamander paper towel, I think you will be surprised. On a related search check salamander pH towel to see some interesting studies. 

Ed


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Ed said:


> I'd have to look at the references but I believe that Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry has the relevent information.
> 
> If you go to google scholar and google salamander paper towel, I think you will be surprised. On a related search check salamander pH towel to see some interesting studies.
> 
> Ed


Pretty soon you will have as many "Thanks" as posts, lol! Thank you for always providing the facts and always being you.

JBear


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