# Red Oophaga lehmanni smuggled



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Mods (sorry Scott you don't have to move many of mine) maybe this should be in oophaga/science and conservation,i'm unsure,if you think so please move. This is SO SERIOUS, I think it might get more exposure here you can double up if you want anything !! So as many folks as possible read.

Guys I'm copying and pasting this from posts I have made here in England,please forgive me,I've had a horrendous week and don't really feel like writing out the sadness over and over. I would ask guys that once again the EU will be the butt of much angst by my american frogger mates ,please don't think bad of all of us. Some of us really do care so lets not do all the bashing this time. But it is very important I think that everyone knows, what has happened. I am very aware that frogs have moved from EU even UK to America,so I hope to prevent that on this occassion.

Oh one last little thing from me just me,lads your example with the auctions, your generosity, the little notes from folks here of support to me via PM, the dudes helping with sponsorship Thank you you folks rock !!

As many of you know I am a staunch supporter of sustainable frogs for our hobby. I have and am trying to do what I can in my own little way to help support the work of one project in particular. This project is called Tesoros de Colombia. Please read the other threads here on this very forum if you have not yet become aware of this incredible story. Oh hell, well I'm at it sign the petition and give a bit to help too.

I've been talking to the guy that runs this for a good while now. He is called Ivan Lozano. Recently Tesoros have had some restrictions put on export,hence the petition,and me asking for help again. So i'm back trying to help Ivan and talking with him oft of late. In a conversation in the last few days he mentioned that he is devastated that someone has recently smuggled a lot of Lehmanni out of Colombia,and they are bound for the EU. It seems that a whole population of Red lehmanni have been pretty much systematically wiped out. Lehmanni are just hanging on by a thread guys,the situation with them is very very serious. The pet trade is implicated in this fiasco,over collecting for export cited as a primary source of population decline even above habitat destruction. 

It is utterly heartbreaking to me that this hobby I adore so much can plausibly part of causing an animal's extinction in the wild especially one that we are meant to adore and be fascinated by. That this should happen at a time when a man has tried for 9 years, I think now, to provide a legal and sustainable means to provide us with these very frogs is unbelievable. It is an action taken for pure selfish and monetary gains. 

Obviously,Ivan is incredibly sad,authorities are being made aware and I would urge anyone here to steer clear of these stolen animals and their potential offspring on a huge level!! This is a most grave situation,frankly I would love to see them returned to Colombia. But I think the damage is already done and I just hope beyond hope that a viable population still exists in the wild now.If ever you needed a rock solid reason to donate to Tesoros or to not buy a particularly stunning frog..... you now have it.



Part of Ivan's remit is not just to provide us with genuine legit colombian frogs,but also there is a rock solid genuine conservation side to his business. At this time he is working on the reintroduction of truncatus to an area where they once existed. The habitat restoration is I think complete,the next step the frogs. This primary experiment,will give him more knowledge for the future plan,This is to reinstate a whole population of lemanni, to the wild.

What the guy must be thinking at this time beggars belief, He's banging his head against this bloody wall (his government) the hobby support is well not great,(fair play to the yanks for trying) and some XXXXXX goes in to his country and steals a lot of a seriously endangered species for who,our hobby in europe


Guys I am seriously upset by this news I can't believe it has happened the timing is horrendous. It will also possibly mean Ivan, if he can stay fighting for his cause and get past this permit nonsense will not export the red morph to europe now. He doesn't want his legitamate frogs to be mixed into these and somehow get legalised I guess, and frankly if that is what he decides then I can't blame him. So some scum has concievably blocked this frog for all of us,But I guess that is for the best as obviously if any red lehmans show up in the reasonably near future even genuine CB it will be seriously evident where they have come from. 

Once again please stay away from these frogs,we are close to Europe,part of it, we hear rumours and folks regularly go to EU to bring new frogs here,but we just can't be part of whole populations being wiped of the face of the earth and undermine the work done by Ivan and his Team into the bargain 

Seriously gutted !!

Stu


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Stu, I understand your frustration and anger. It seems like there's been an uptick in smuggling as of late. I know someone smuggled the Tumucumaque tincs over to Europe recently, and it really p*sses me off. It's a blight on the hobby.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

hypostatic said:


> Stu, I understand your frustration and anger. It seems like there's been an uptick in smuggling as of late. I know someone smuggled the Tumucumaque tincs over to Europe recently, and it really p*sses me off. It's a blight on the hobby.


I'm seething Dan,rare for me mate but really seething. From the rumours i've heard the tincs have been about for a while, but,I have no real info about those. God I hope more haven't been taken!! From what Ivan tells me bro, this has just happened last few weeks and it's a whole population wiped out Honestly I could cry buddy,this isn't a two or 3 malarky and they know damn well how vunerable this species is. That is why I have posted this on all the fora I visit: something could just possibly happen if every one knows,this utterly cannot continue. It can't anyway because there aren't the frogs to sustain it!! It is so insulting to what Ivan is trying to do buddy,good god I'm spitting fire on this

I've splattered this every where here mate,the big show is not far away in EU,I'll not cast aspersions with no facts,but folks hopefully will know here at least,maybe my little island can stay away from this one. If they don't, well, the ignorance plea is shot!!!!!!!!! 

take care buddy

Stu


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Seems like the best thing to do would be to send all the red lehmanni back to the wild. The reality is eventually the euro stuff gets over to the USA through various means so not sending any out will be the only way to limit their travel, making them illegal everywhere. Even if Ivan only sends them to the USA someone will just export them to Europe and then everyone will use those to launder the euro population.


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Pubfiction said:


> Seems like the best thing to do would be to send all the red lehmanni back to the wild. The reality is eventually the euro stuff gets over to the USA through various means so not sending any out will be the only way to limit their travel, making them illegal everywhere. Even if Ivan only sends them to the USA someone will just export them to Europe and then everyone will use those to launder the euro population.


Is the best thing to do put them back? They've already been heavily smuggled (I'm taking this at face value), so what is stopping them from doing it again? Captive bred animals don't really stop that.

I think the state of the hobby has made this a lot better but smuggling is a persistent issue that we must maintain constant vigilance about. I've done a bit of traveling, and I've had locals offer to sell me poison frogs just because I'm a ******...


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

The best thing to do would to not export them legally. Yep, I said it. Hear me out.

The only way the illegal frogs will not become mixed with legal specimens is to not export them legally in the first place. That would mean the people who imported them illegally would always be in jeopardy of prosecution and cannot launch their plan. 

The Plan - Most likely, the illegal frogs will go to an eastern European country in the EU. These countries make it easy to bring in illegal frogs. Subsequently, the illegal frogs will be sent to Germany, then these people will wait secretly and quietly. Once they become legally exported, these same people will purchase a few of the legal frogs. They will then release the illegal frogs en masse and claim all of their frogs are progeny of the legal imports and will have paperwork from purchasing a couple of the legals to prove it. Very lucrative.

The best thing to do would to not export them legally.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

easternversant said:


> Is the best thing to do put them back? They've already been heavily smuggled (I'm taking this at face value), so what is stopping them from doing it again? Captive bred animals don't really stop that.
> 
> I think the state of the hobby has made this a lot better but smuggling is a persistent issue that we must maintain constant vigilance about. I've done a bit of traveling, and I've had locals offer to sell me poison frogs just because I'm a ******...


It will be very hard if possible to ever determine the best thing to do but you have to admit it would certainly throw the ball back into the court of the smugglers and say your move. As ecichlid mentioned the play in all these cases is for people to get a head start on breeding desired animals, smuggle ahead of legal import then wait to launder them into the hobby. By removing the legalized source they never have a legal way to launder them in. They must remain underground the whole time, making everything they do more costly and more difficult and risky.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

With what has gone on in recent years it may be best to never release these frogs legally, it would be the same position Mark Pepper took on the Mysteriousus and it would be hard to argue it wasn't the right decision. The demand for these frogs will never go away, perhaps with like the Rhino poachers should be shot and they should employ the locals to protect the frogs and their forest.


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## SeaDuck (Nov 8, 2006)

Mark; the problem with that is it keeps them as a hot commodity. Look at the underground market in the US (IE mysti) that could be squashed by a legal import release. Yes, it leaves those that traded or smuggled unpunished but it certainly would reduce the value of smuggling. I see similarities of Reagan's War on drugs and thirty years later that policy is definately not a success. Robert


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I don't think your analogy works for me SeaDuck. 

I think Mark Pepper did make the right call, but it didn't matter because the Germans and the Brits have them anyways. 

I think Tesoros made the wrong call, although they did have the best of intentions. The best Tesoros could do now now is not export them. Although the damage is already done, at least the people who are likely holding on to these frogs will not benefit financially and therefore have justification to themselves to do this again. 

Sometimes you just have to admit you were beat and consider that we must take the interest of the frogs in the wild over our desire to have them in our vivs. 

Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned here. Taking rare wild frogs out of their environment to breed in captivity and then distribute to caring hobbyists is not a good idea, because of the evil of other men. Perhaps this can only be done with frogs that are in abundance. But then again, isn't that a more expensive endeavor to capture and breed, then collecting them and then exporting them in the first place.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

stu&shaz said:


> I'm seething Dan,rare for me mate but really seething. From the rumours i've heard the tincs have been about for a while, but,I have no real info about those. God I hope more haven't been taken!! From what Ivan tells me bro, this has just happened last few weeks and it's a whole population wiped out Honestly I could cry buddy,this isn't a two or 3 malarky and they know damn well how vunerable this species is. That is why I have posted this on all the fora I visit: something could just possibly happen if every one knows,this utterly cannot continue. It can't anyway because there aren't the frogs to sustain it!! It is so insulting to what Ivan is trying to do buddy,good god I'm spitting fire on this
> 
> I've splattered this every where here mate,the big show is not far away in EU,I'll not cast aspersions with no facts,but folks hopefully will know here at least,maybe my little island can stay away from this one. If they don't, well, the ignorance plea is shot!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


The emotions I feels go from frustration, to anger, to sadness, and then repeat. 

Are these just being blatantly sold in the open over there? Are there no repercussions for this sort of thing in Europe?

The one thing that brings me relief is that Tesoros exists at all, so at least there is some sort of "bank" for this species when terrible things like this happen.



markpulawski said:


> With what has gone on in recent years it may be best to never release these frogs legally, it would be the same position Mark Pepper took on the Mysteriousus and it would be hard to argue it wasn't the right decision. The demand for these frogs will never go away, perhaps with like the Rhino poachers should be shot and they should employ the locals to protect the frogs and their forest.


I agree with everything you said Mark.

But also take into consideration, that usually animals like these frogs are found and collected by the locals; commonly traded for a few dollars or a bag of rice.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

hypostatic said:


> The emotions I feels go from frustration, to anger, to sadness, and then repeat.
> 
> 
> 
> Are these just being blatantly sold in the open over there? Are there no repercussions for this sort of thing in Europe?



Consider that what I stated about Germans being involved with this is not based on personal observation, but rather on what I heard is a general strategy, described by a reputable U.S. Importer, prior to this incident. 

Let's also not demonize the Germans. There are plenty of Americans who would do the same evil deeds, if it is only to line their own pockets. 

And no, this is not being done out in the open in Europe. From what I have been told, it's easier to bring smuggled frogs into Eastern European countries that are contained within the EU then they are to say Germany or the UK directly. Subsequently, these frogs are easy to transfer to a country like Germany from there because of the free trade agreements in place between EU countries. Once these small number of individuals have the illegal frogs, they keep a low profile and then only show their heads after legal frogs of that species are recognized. "Hey, I bought a pair of legal lehmanni here in Germany and I have the paperwork to prove it. The rest of these frogs I'm selling are froglets from that pair. Boy, they sure do multiply and grow up fast!"

Truth be told, as far as I know, these illegal frogs could be in the United States, but I doubt it. It's much easier to go thru Eastern Europe and subsequently, the knowing or unknowing hobbyist in Germany will pay top dollar.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Guys, there is a pattern of frogs about to be released legally being smuggled just prior to that release,which is being referred to here. That head start to make some on bucks is being cited as a direct reason for this incident,while I take that point on board,lemanni have been smuggled anyway. Frankly over collection is cited is the primary source for their decline in the wild. 

So I personnaly think this would have happened anyway,it might have effected timing,but rest assured there is a market and if froggers will pay big bucks,then frogs will be stolen. At the moment those that care won't buy,those that don't will buy them anyway. Legality,moral ethic s and what the cause of this action could be mean to the wild population mean nothing. These folks will still try and breed these frogs and in turn find a market underground. US EU Asia it matters not they will find it. 

The only option is to bring frogs in legally to provide an alternative to slake this demand in folks that will grab them anyway,we are where we are with this frog as a result of illegal trade. Them not being available hasn't stopped them being taken has it,so to me one has to try something different. That option is Tesoros and it is probably the only chance of an option we will get. If the status quo doesn't change,these frogs will continue to be smuggled and it is is obvious to all where that will leave lehmanni


For me the first step is spelling out the ramifications of what has happened,in an effort to make the market smaller,even folks that will buy other smuggled frogs will be thinking twice about these plus some will not buy because clearing a population is a step too far even for them. 

Maybe if the red is released to US and not here then folks will try to move them to legalize their stolen frogs in EU,first that takes an exporter.....it isn't like that guy won't know the implication of his actions, and second it seems to me that it isn't going to be that difficult to trace said frogs,back. Whom ever in the rest of the world sends legit reds to EU ,his name is going to be used by the breeder here(EU) to substantiate legality of his stolen frogs. Anyone that cares should be able to see this a mile off now that this is all over the place. Those that don't will buy anyway .

Guys just personal opinions,I don't know what is for the best,just feel all my hopes are based on a good honest genuine man whom cares about this on a level almost unseen before. I don't see smuggling ever stopping,while money is to be made and we are not educated not to buy them. My goals in posting this are to remove that chance of someone not being aware,ie the education side and show that we as a hobby are outraged by this.

Nice to see a debate starting to happen here,thanks all

Stu

These frogs came into EU,not through back end eastern block countries.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

There are some great ideas here, and the one common thread through them all is passion for the conservation and protection of the animals first, however different the ideas. I know that I don't know the answers, but I believe that Stu is on to something. It occurs to me that the legality of an animal has not prevented smuggling in the past, which is why groups like Tesoros are trying to use biocommerce as a way to reduce smuggling. It seems to me that the more readily available an animal is, the less of a reason to smuggle. There may be smuggling regardless; however, there is far less incentive when someone can get that animal from someone they know and trust at a reasonable price than through the black market. Thoughts?


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Let me start by saying you guys have your hearts in the right place, but you are also bias, you want the frogs in the hobby. 

The truth is that this becomes a much more profitable endeavor for the smugglers knowing that these frogs will be legal in the near future. With such a limited supply coming out of Tesoros, these evil people will have way more frogs available to distribute and will get top dollar without much of any legal risk. 

It would be better if money was spent to introduce the captive bred froglets back into the wild and not into our vivs.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

ecichlid said:


> Let me start by saying you guys have your hearts in the right place, but you are also bias, you want the frogs in the hobby.
> 
> The truth is that this becomes a much more profitable endeavor for the smugglers knowing that these frogs will be legal in the near future. With such a limited supply coming out of Tesoros, these evil people will have way more frogs available to distribute and will get top dollar without much of any legal risk.
> 
> It would be better if money was spent to introduce the captive bred froglets back into the wild and not into our vivs.



You may be right about the solution. I just don't know enough to really know. I do love the hobby, but I try to look at it from an unbiased perspective as conservation means more than our hobby. It may not be possible to be totally unbiased, and I recognize that. With that said, will smuggling really be greatly reduced if we don't legalize the pet trade, or portions thereof? I understand that there will be a lot of money to be made initially, but if they are legalized, there will be much less money to be made I think which reduces the ongoing smuggling operations. Couple.that with conservation efforts and it seems wild populations can grow again. I am not saying this to legitimize smuggling, but now that it's done, how can we deal with it to ensure wild populations can be restored, which is really the end-state?

If smuggling is a large reason for the decline of their populations, how does this compare to many other, legally traded animals? How is smuggling affecting other pumilio morphs that are legally traded for example? Are the pressures from smuggling just as great? I would like to see these facts. Thoughts?


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## SeaDuck (Nov 8, 2006)

ecichlid said:


> Let me start by saying you guys have your hearts in the right place, but you are also bias, you want the frogs in the hobby.
> 
> The truth is that this becomes a much more profitable endeavor for the smugglers knowing that these frogs will be legal in the near future. With such a limited supply coming out of Tesoros, these evil people will have way more frogs available to distribute and will get top dollar without much of any legal risk.
> 
> It would be better if money was spent to introduce the captive bred froglets back into the wild and not into our vivs.


In fact I am completely without bias on this matter. I do not have any personal want for these frogs; instead I would prefer not to see them wiped out in the wild however the banning of trade or a species as a policy has not worked to prevent or even limit smuggling or trade.

I have watched this same behavior in illegally traded goods over the last 30+ years and quite frankly where there is a desire for a something it will get smuggled for money. Reducing the money that is made by smuggling will stop it. Educating the fact that captive imports are more likely to be healthy and a conservation bonus perk from buying legal will go a long way. 

Robert


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

ecichlid said:


> Let me start by saying you guys have your hearts in the right place, but you are also bias, you want the frogs in the hobby.
> 
> The truth is that this becomes a much more profitable endeavor for the smugglers knowing that these frogs will be legal in the near future. With such a limited supply coming out of Tesoros, these evil people will have way more frogs available to distribute and will get top dollar without much of any legal risk.
> 
> It would be better if money was spent to introduce the captive bred froglets back into the wild and not into our vivs.


I concur I am,i'd love to one day have a chance at keeping red lehmanni,I'm possibly one of the first too know that chance might never come now,they have to be from Tesoros(for me to keep) so me being classed as a european, it very much looks like that option is lost. The selfish side of me still wants this,but it won't stop me banging my head against a wall trying to help,even if it is benefit someone else like you guys and more importantly the wild frogs. I still believe that the best chance for these frogs in the wild is Tesoros. Yes sure someone might have more to sell from their stolen frogs ,but it is a large egg feeder and they are not hugely productive. to counter this,again, the value of the frogs means even a few would make this lucrative,you are right a smuggler and those that buy these stolen frogs have something to gain. 

Raising money for release programmes is part of the remit,and sure the success of said release is open to debate. But everything about this project is ground breaking in my eyes,so maybe they might just break new ground there too. Lets face it a few years back the thought of somebody producing any quantity of this frog to sell commercially would be almost unheard of. But with support this could now genuinely happen. Said funds would be derived from frog sales.

Finally however much we might wring our hands at this,the smuggling continues. There is no legal alternative and so far,no laws have stopped this. If a legal alternative is provided maybe just maybe less will be taken from the wild. Many reasons this might happen, the animals from Ivan will be top draw health wise...smuggled well who knows,lots of parasites poor condition through less than ideal travel and probably male heavy too boot. If I had no ethics I'd rather shell out for legal just for these factors alone Legal trackable paperwork as opposed to none,will make them much easier to sell on,papers can be forged of course,but it isn't going to be that hard to contact Tesoros(or frog resellers) and find out how many a breeder got,so a buyer can educate himself as to whom he buys off and if those frogs are in numbers that do not add up avoid them. Good breeders who know what they are doing will probably eventually lower the price,less revenue for smuggler. That last bit is dubious Ed's already told us the most smuggled frog is auratus which have low value,but the other factors coupled with awareness in a very expensive high end(hate those terms) frog,might just mean folks would take the legal choice if they had it,what ever their morals or ethics.

So i'm still of the opinion that the legal option is a good thing for the wild frogs aswell,not just me as a keeper

take care

Stu


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

The chief reason Tesoros is trying to legally export frogs is to reduce the demand for the smuggling to keep more frogs in the wild.. There obviously will always be a "black market" for smugglers with illegal animals, especially those in high demand... the reason why its helpful for the conservation of the species to have them legally exported is simple supply & demand economics.. there's a high demand for these frogs & there are a wide range of people with different morals & opinions that are passionate about owning them.. you have your strong conservation minded folk on the one hand that would not own any animals that were never legally imported... Kudos to those folk as there are not many frogs in the hobby entirely legal & just as many are common in the hobby that were never legally released form their place of origin. Then you have the guys that want what they want but theyre on the fence about obtaining known smuggled animals... These are the guys that can be impacted the most.. If a legal option presents itself these guys go legal first... this slows demand for smuggled frogs over time & the frogs will not be as sought after by smugglers. the guys that prioritize having the new frog over enabling smugglers to continue depleting populations will just go after any frog any way they can get their hands on them so they need not be addressed as much in this issue. My point is the mission of Tesoros is a positive one for the frogs in the wild should it come to happen. the legal exportation will only decrease illegal smuggling.. as far as the "laundering" of frogs... I see this as not as large an issue as others because the reality is that for the mind of the guy willing to launder frogs with legal ones, in this persons mind they will buy smuggled regardless of the availability of legal ones being that this person is the type that wants what they want regardless of method or means, they just may sell more carefully under the table but dont make the mistake of thinking legality hinders sales at all, some may even argue the opposite in some instances... So it is not the guy that routinely buys smuggled or illegal frogs without a care that need be addressed, its the on the fence person that would rather not own smuggled frogs, but would think about it absent any other option that need be addressed here... That person will make the right choice given the right option.. TESOROS is trying to be that right option.. At least thats my interpretation of there mission here.


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## Igofastr (Jan 16, 2015)

It's a shame that a whole population can be decimated by smugglers, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

I agree that the only way to stem smuggling is to crush the demand. The cat is already out of the bag, so to speak, and the demand is intact. Smuggling will continue until it isn't profitable.

At this point, I would worry less about punishing the smugglers than I would protecting the wild population. Righteous indignation be damned, I'd hate to see the demise of a population while we fought to keep captive frogs out of circulation.

Want to guess what would protect wild frogs....for captive bred animals to be readily available and cheap. Call me fatalist, but I see myself as a pragmatist.

In case anyone is wondering..no, I don't have a secret stash of smuggled animals, nor do I ever intend to own any.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

All of the arguments that support continuing to release red lehmanni that I see here can be boiled down to one stated item that you repeat likes it's fact - *Having captive bred frogs readily available would mean that there would less of a demand for the wild ones.*

*Really??* Are you sure about that? Can you support that with facts? I think I have a fact or two that contradicts that.

If you can support the above as fact, the rest of your arguments fall down like a house of cards.

You guys are also sharing another fundamental argument that doesn't hold water, but I'll hold off on that till after we get past this one.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

By all means. Don't hold back. We are all really on the same side here. Please share with us the facts that show how not legalizing a sustainable captive bread program will further harm endangered species being decimated by smuggling. 


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## SeaDuck (Nov 8, 2006)

ecichlid said:


> *Having captive bred frogs readily available would mean that there would less of a demand for the wild ones.*


One can certainly hope. Keeping them illegal and trying to ban trade has not been working. The people in demand of these frogs are not playing by these rules and their money is funding it.

The major problem is the demand that drives the smuggling is growing. Asia has a very very high demand. I can take a decent guess that we raised 400-500 thumbs over half dozen years and most all of them were legally exported to Europe & Asia. I stopped raising much with the loss of a decent exporter though seriously doubt the Asian demand is gone. 

Robert


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Celtic Aaron said:


> By all means. Don't hold back. We are all really on the same side here. Please share with us the facts that show how not legalizing a sustainable captive bread program will further harm endangered species being decimated by smuggling.



Aww, don't be sore that you can't answer my question. We are on the same side here. You have to admit, the premise that the presence of legal frogs will diminish the demand for illegal ones is not true. 

Would anyone else like to support that statement. I would like to hear it. I'm open to changing my mind.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

ecichlid said:


> Aww, don't be sore that you can't answer my question. We are on the same side here. You have to admit, the premise that the presence of legal frogs will diminish the demand for illegal ones is not true.
> 
> Would anyone else like to support that statement. I would like to hear it. I'm open to changing my mind.



I am truly not sore, but want to understand the facts that you have that support your position. I fully admit that my position is not supported by hard evidence (that I am aware of). I am trying to follow some logic here that may or may not be correct. However, I do not see any others species that we are working with that are legally imported and also being seriously endangered due to smuggling. If I am wrong, please show me; otherwise, this leads me to believe that allowing legal imports reduces smuggling.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Celtic Aaron said:


> I am truly not sore, but want to understand the facts that you have that support your position. I fully admit that my position is not supported by hard evidence (that I am aware of). I am trying to follow some logic here that may or may not be correct. However, I do not see any others species that we are working with that are legally imported and also being seriously endangered due to smuggling. If I am wrong, please show me; otherwise, this leads me to believe that allowing legal imports reduces smuggling.


This is not a novel topic. taken from http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/155178-why-conservation-important.html 



Ed said:


> This is not a simple topic and I'm not totally sure I want to wade into it again...
> 
> The problem with your friends point of view on the topic is that it is extremely narrow in scope. There are a number of fundamental errors in her assumptions.
> 
> ...


Ideally if the locals are able to profit from the animals there is a disinclination to tolerate the smugglers taking their money from them through overcollecting. As it stands right now, they can pay the locals enough that it is economically feasible for them to completely wipe out a population even if a small percentage of frogs survive the collecting and trip. 

Effectively anyone who makes the argument that captive breeding decreases demand either doesn't understand the pressures behind smuggling/laundering illegally imported animals or is deliberately ignoring reality. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Thanks Aaron. . I may be wrong here, that's why I'm still in the discussion. I enjoy posting and reading good posts. 

There are many animals available readily in the U.S. legally that are still being smuggled into the U.S. Illegally. This includes numerous reptiles, birds and even frogs. I know you know that. But why is that?

As stated by Ed previously, auratus is the most commonly smuggled dart frog, even though it is readily available and legal to keep. It's even cheap in price when compared to other frogs. But why is that?

The answer is obvious - PRICE. the cost to smuggle a frog into the U.S. is cheaper than even the cheapest auratus bred and raised here. And that's true, even though there are numerous hobbyists breeding auratus in large numbers. And even though the hobby has been successful in driving down the price of auratus to a level that lehmanni will never get close to, it's simple economics that make auratus a good choice for smugglers. 

Froggers purchase auratus all of the time. Has anyone ever purchased auratus froglets and asked the seller to provide paperwork that proves the froglets come directly from a legally imported line of auratus? Maybe never. Why is that? I mean, Ed said auratus are the most commonly smuggled dart frog, right? Why aren't we doing more to discover if our frogs are rooted in a legal import?

The "why" above is really another discussion. The important thing to note is past behavior is a strong indicator of future behavior. What some people are fantasizing about is not rooted in reality. 

The presence of legal lehmanni will not diminish the demand of illegal lehmanni. Can we agree on that now?


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Ed said:


> Ideally if the locals are able to profit from the animals there is a disinclination to tolerate the smugglers taking their money from them through overcollecting. As it stands right now, they can pay the locals enough that it is economically feasible for them to completely wipe out a population even if a small percentage of frogs survive the collecting and trip.
> 
> Effectively anyone who makes the argument that captive breeding decreases demand either doesn't understand the pressures behind smuggling/laundering illegally imported animals or is deliberately ignoring reality.
> 
> ...



If this is true, and they were ALL just taken, would it have been wise for the conservation minded group to collect them all first and "properly" manage them? 

Or does this also create larger worse issues?

Should they go grab all the other ones they can find to protect them? The smuggling won't kill them this way, yet the natural range would cease to exist. 
-Andrew


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> As stated by Ed previously, auratus is the most commonly smuggled dart frog, even though it is readily available and legal to keep. It's even cheap in price when compared to other frogs. But why is that?
> 
> The answer is obvious - PRICE. the cost to smuggle a frog into the U.S. is cheaper than even the cheapest auratus bred and raised here. And that's true, even though there are numerous hobbyists breeding auratus in large numbers. And even though the hobby has been successful in driving down the price of auratus to a level that lehmanni will never get close to, it's simple economics that make auratus a good choice for smugglers.
> 
> Froggers purchase auratus all of the time. Has anyone ever purchased auratus froglets and asked the seller to provide paperwork that proves the froglets come directly from a legally imported line of auratus? Maybe never. Why is that? I mean, Ed said auratus are the most commonly smuggled dart frog, right? Why aren't we doing more to discover if our frogs are rooted in a legal import?


My understanding (in relation to WC auratus specifically), was that they frequently occur in areas that higher demand/higher price species are found (i.e. pumilio), and are collected as collateral income. In many cases the collectors will require a certain number of auratus to be purchased in addition to the limited number of high-end frogs to be found in order to make the endeavor more worthwhile.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Dane said:


> My understanding (in relation to WC auratus specifically), was that they frequently occur in areas that higher demand/higher price species are found (i.e. pumilio), and are collected as collateral income. In many cases the collectors will require a certain number of auratus to be purchased in addition to the limited number of high-end frogs to be found in order to make the endeavor more worthwhile.


That was my impression too, which to me implies that people aren't going out specifically to smuggle the auratus as the target, but rather they are just tossing them in with a different shipment of the target frogs (pumilio) for some extra easy cash. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It's also confusing me because although auratus may be the most commonly "smuggled" (illegally imported) frog, and they are widely held and bred in the hobby, I haven't heard of this trend the same way with other frogs. I'm not trying to be rhetoric or sarcastic here- asking a genuine question because to the best of my knowledge I'm not aware of it- but how often are other common, legal frogs smuggled now? I haven't heard much of things like shipments of smuggled azureus, anthonyi, terribilis, imitator, vanzolini, etc recently. Now I know many of the aforementioned frogs came from original illegal stock so they were smuggled at some point, but I'm talking about recent smuggling pressure now that they have been established and/ or legally imported by others.

I know the data shows that, for auratus at least, captive breeding in the hobby has not eliminated smuggling. So I'm just honestly asking to see if this is a special case for auratus due to the way they are collected with pumilio, or if it's a general trend with many other species of frogs. 

Thanks,
Bryan

*Edit*- Found this thread with some searching http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/143658-mysteriosus-legality-4.html, which mentions seized shipments of leucomelas and pumilio/auratus in 2000 and 2004. So I guess that partially answers my question. However, I'm still not sure how this compares to the level of smuggling before they were established, or smuggling events of common frogs in the last decade even. I would have to guess that as unfortunate as it is to still be smuggled, leucomelas (for example) are still smuggled less than other rare species/ not in the hobby, but I don't have any data to support or refute this.


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

ecichlid said:


> All of the arguments that support continuing to release red lehmanni that I see here can be boiled down to one stated item that you repeat likes it's fact - *Having captive bred frogs readily available would mean that there would less of a demand for the wild ones.*
> 
> *Really??* Are you sure about that? Can you support that with facts? I think I have a fact or two that contradicts that.
> 
> ...


_Supply & Demand Economics is pretty factual_... Im oversimplifying this, but If the Supply of an Item goes up the price will go down (this is especially realized in our frog world),as the price goes down the demand for smuggled animals decreases, this yields a lower demand to smuggle eventually yielding a greater population in the wild... This is Supply & Demand, this is factual, not an opinion that Im stating. Im not saying the frogs wont be smuggled at all if legal exportation takes place , IM stating it would happen less which is a better then happening more I think we can all agree. Also just disagreeing is not really shedding any light on why you for some reason dont believe legal exportation will help slow the demand for smuggled frogs? What facts make you feel legal exportation will hurt the wild population?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Smuggling will never stop that is the sad part of the animal trade, however with Tesoros making them legal through hard work and efforts it def slows down smuggling. #1 smuggled frog is still the Costa Rican green and black auratus, however since they are so manny in the hobby not much attention is given to that, but also since they are legal they are very abundant and the demand for such frogs is not great. 
People want what they can't have, too manny ppl are getting in this hobby with the idea of making money and not because they enjoy keeping the animals! 

If Ivan is not selling any Red Lehmani to Europe then obviously we all know they dont have any legal blookdlines when you see them pop up and with such a hot frog it wont be too long til somone out there brags "Look what i have" and the person responsible will be caught.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

ecichlid said:


> Thanks Aaron. . I may be wrong here, that's why I'm still in the discussion. I enjoy posting and reading good posts.
> 
> There are many animals available readily in the U.S. legally that are still being smuggled into the U.S. Illegally. This includes numerous reptiles, birds and even frogs. I know you know that. But why is that?
> 
> ...


Based on what you and Ed are saying, I concede that legal imports may not decrease smuggling. I had not thought about increased pressures on wild populations due to more frogs being readily available legally. So, if I understand the point correctly, the more readily available an animal is the more likely the desire for new bloodlines? More people will have the animal, which means that more people will desire the new bloodlines, as opposed to a few rouges keeping illegal frogs, which will increase the pressure on wild-caught frogs?

Based on what Ed is citing, the only real possibility of protecting animals from smuggling is to make local people business partners, in a sense. If it is financially more beneficial for them to protect the animals, they will not tolerate smuggling. What a pain this whole thing is!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Celtic Aaron said:


> So, if I understand the point correctly, the more readily available an animal is the more likely the desire for new bloodlines? More people will have the animal, which means that more people will desire the new bloodlines, as opposed to a few rouges keeping illegal frogs, which will increase the pressure on wild-caught frogs?


Don't underestimate the whole I'm going to get it simply because I can get it whether it is wild caught or captive bred. The hobby tends to give status to people who have kept or keep a lot of different animals at one time or those who have the rarer or "harder to keep" or more expensive animals so there is a driver there for illegal animals. 
In addition, you can look back through the threads where something isn't available to the hobby people want to know how to get it into the US. Some of the Brazilian tinctorious populations are examples of this and the news that they are in some of the European hobby had people wanting to know when they will be imported into the US..... 




Celtic Aaron said:


> Based on what Ed is citing, the only real possibility of protecting animals from smuggling is to make local people business partners, in a sense. If it is financially more beneficial for them to protect the animals, they will not tolerate smuggling. What a pain this whole thing is!


It goes a little beyond that as well. If there is sufficient value in the frogs they also won't be likely to start converting the land to soybean or cotton fields. 

Its mainly so much of a pain because people are willing to pay for things that they perceive as valuable. If we stop demanding the stuff that isn't available legally and stop giving people status for having the rarer populations it would go a good way to stopping it but I'm not going to hold my breath as there is always going to be enough people who are willing to do it out of greed or a desire for status. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tincman said:


> _Supply & Demand Economics is pretty factual_... Im oversimplifying this, but If the Supply of an Item goes up the price will go down (this is especially realized in our frog world),as the price goes down the demand for smuggled animals decreases, this yields a lower demand to smuggle eventually yielding a greater population in the wild... This is Supply & Demand, this is factual, not an opinion that Im stating. Im not saying the frogs wont be smuggled at all if legal exportation takes place , IM stating it would happen less which is a better then happening more I think we can all agree. Also just disagreeing is not really shedding any light on why you for some reason dont believe legal exportation will help slow the demand for smuggled frogs? What facts make you feel legal exportation will hurt the wild population?


Sorry the economics don't support you on this at all. This is a claim put forth by many who make the claim of conservation through captive breeding but that is nothing more than a smoke screen justification. I linked a thread earlier that has a link in it that goes into this in great detail. You might want to read both of the threads. It doesn't happen until the price of the captive produced frogs are less than what it costs to collect the wild caught animals and that is before we consider the whole people wanting "new blood". 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

a hill said:


> If this is true, and they were ALL just taken, would it have been wise for the conservation minded group to collect them all first and "properly" manage them?
> 
> Or does this also create larger worse issues?
> 
> ...


No, all that does is make the population functionally extinct and there still isn't any reason to not convert the land to an oil palm plantation, grow coca, or convert it to soybean or cotton fields. If you fail to engage the populations on the ground your pretty much guaranteeing that the population isn't going to be able to be repatriated to the locality from which it originated. See the links I posted above. 

In addition, the cost of those kinds of programs is very considerable so you would have to have buy in on a national level to commit the funding to construct the facilities, train the staff, collect the animals and then manage them. They should ideally be managed in situ and managed in such a way as to prevent the risk of acquiring or releasing a pathogen from a different locality. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Ed,

I just wonder what is more important and what is inevitable. If a poacher can basically whipe out an entire population and then that frog is gone and likely mostly killed, is it worse for them to all be collected and conserved and then hopefully reintroduced if possible when it's safe. 

At over a thousand dollars a frog, I am saddened that I don't believe most people would do the right thing. "It's just a frog" comes to mind. 

That said, farming $1000 frogs, seems like a no brainer but that's not one big payday instantly and takes investment and work. 

No good outcomes seem hopeful to me. 

-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

While the scimitar horn oryx is very very different, I think that situation is probably the future of many animals in these predicaments


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Thank you everyone who posted. Good stuff. I think Ed is right on point. Of course, Ed's experience and reading puts him above my opinion. 



a hill said:


> Should they go grab all the other ones they can find to protect them? The smuggling won't kill them this way, yet the natural range would cease to exist. -Andrew


 Possibly. If the numbers are that minimal, that has been done with other animals in the past. Ivan at Tesoros could make this call much better than we can here.



Tincman said:


> _Supply & Demand Economics is pretty factual_... Im oversimplifying this...


 You sure did. I think Ed's counterpoint was right on. Your point is not valid. I think we all understand the basic concept of supply and demand before this topic started.



Julio said:


> If Ivan is not selling any Red Lehmani to Europe then obviously we all know they dont have any legal blookdlines


 I wish that as the case Julio, but I don't think that it is. I believe there can be an intermediary with the paperwork that can get around this. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have in the past imported animals (not frogs) from Germany, Netherlands and Tanzania. Sometimes the animals had their origin in another country.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

The other problem with this is there are OLD bloodlines prior to CITES that do exist from what I've been told. 



-Andrew


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

a hill said:


> While the scimitar horn oryx is very very different, I think that situation is probably the future of many animals in these predicaments


And an example of the lack of buy in from the locals. while they aren't poaching while the oryx are still in their pen, and they are getting benefits its all good but if you scroll down to the comments by the locals you'll see what is often very typical.... 

Still Wild, but Without a Wilderness — NOVA Next | PBS 

If the habitat isn't preserved then they are highly unlikely to ever be successfully released as to restore the habitat your going to negatively impact the locals and that will cause problems. It is much better to start off with the locals on board and earning a living from the animals in a way that preserves the habitat than to do it after they have been removed. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

If I recall correctly, Tesoros has described their business model as a way to provide frogs in a environmentally responsible manner, that also benefits the local economy.

I don't recall Tesoros ever stating that what they are doing will have any sort of detrimental impact to smuggling. Please correct if that's not true.


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## Igofastr (Jan 16, 2015)

I don't know what the rest of you do for a living, but in my business, supply and demand have an obvious and incontrovertible influence on human behavior.

Given the law of unintended consequences, its hard to always predict what's going to happen in every situation, but my contention that taking a limited resource and making it significantly less limited will inevitably drive the price (and therefore impetus for illegal activity) down.

Just take a look at our oh-so-successful war on drugs for several examples.
1. The cost of, and illegal activity associated with hard drugs such as coke. etc.
2. The relative drop in price (and illegal activity) associated with marijuana in states that have legalized the use and distribution of such.

By the way, my use of this political hot potato as an example is not meant as some sort of tacit approval...I'm staunchly anti-drug use, FYI. This is just a convenient object lesson.

Do I suggest that the whole-sale collection of all wild species for captive breeding programs as their salvation...no. But, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility in some situations. And, probably this one.

You breeders of high-end frogs...care to chime in about how your business model would change if a $1000 frog suddenly became a $30 frog? Why do you think breeders hold back certain frogs?

Ok, now, why do smugglers only smuggle certain frogs?


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Ed,

I'm aware, but when it's too far gone?

I hate I'm actually proposing this seriously. But these are frogs worth way too much money. Similar to the elimination of certain parrots. 

-Andrew


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Igofastr said:


> I don't know what the rest of you do for a living, but in my business, supply and demand have an obvious and incontrovertible influence on human behavior.


Instead of implying that the rest of us are ignorant of the mechanism of supply and demand how about reading the links that would have told you that there was more to the issue than your simplistic example?? We're not ignorant of the laws of supply and demand but your simplistic scenario doesn't even come close to covering this topic or even being relevant at this point. 

First off to reduce the demand you have to reach some level of market saturation. If you cannot supply enough items to the public when they want it, then you are actually going to drive demand and value up. Think of the must have toys that get sold out before Christmas and then surface on E-Bay for significant increases in cost. To claim that producing frogs and then selling them reduces demand is incorrect. We can even look at a simple animal for this model. The lowly ball python, which despite being heavily produced in captivity has not reduced demand for "ranched" animals and eggs removed from the wild. Or the fact that auratus have been pretty consistently imported since the 1980s despite being one of the most commonly bred frogs. 

So to simply make the supply and demand argument as if it settles the question is an unrealistically simple model and that is before we even consider that Asian is an emerging market for these animals. I strongly suggest reading those threads and possibly the references on the topic as this exact proposed scenario has been hashed out before. 

Does this sort of post tick me off...yes because you clearly didn't bother to read up on the references and then you had to come on and make insinuations that we have to be ignorant of the facts and/or process.... . 

I suggest the links provided in post #26. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

a hill said:


> Ed,
> 
> I'm aware, but when it's too far gone?
> 
> ...


The real problem is that because there isn't any interest in enabling the locals to earn a value on the frogs in a sustainable manner, there isn't going to be a realistic way to salvage them. Even with the parrots, if you captive breed them and then release them, it isn't uncommon for them to end up being poached. They might not make it to the international market but there are plenty of local markets for the birds. 

The smugglers don't pay a lot of money per frog... in some cases its a few dollars but that is more than the locals are going to realize so they have a lot of incentive to collect as many as possible as who knows the next time they will have that opportunity. So even if the smugglers don't get them all, there is often high mortality for the frogs that are collected in case there is further demand. The inclusion of a CITES quota can have negative impacts and we can look at mantellas for this example. There is a rush by the collectors, middle men and exporters to get animals to the port and out of the country before the quota is filled. As a consequence, there can be substantial numbers of animals that simply die in a warehouse because they were too late to be included in the exports before the quota was filled. This is part of the reason why a sustainable model that benefits the locals can go a long way towards reducing the problem. Not only do they not have incentive to sell the frogs for so much less to the smugglers they can count on earning a certain amount of money per period of the year. 

At least with the parrots you can count on banding to provide something that enables some level of tracking of the birds. There isn't anything like that for the frogs and since there is CITES trade data that would support the possible imports in the early to mid-1990s (they weren't added to CITES II if I remember correctly until 1992) people can launder animals by claiming that they are captive bred descendents of early imports. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Igofastr (Jan 16, 2015)

Ed,

Nobody is implying that anyone is ignorant....well, except maybe you implying that I'm ignorant. I can live with that.

My intention was to remind everyone of the simple fact of market forces. Obviously, the pet trade in not always a free and liquid market, but that doesn't really change things. Obviously, I'm not an economist...still.

I've read your post #26, which references quite the lecture back in 2004. I've actually read that thread several times over the years, thank you.

I believe I understand your contentions, seemingly well summarized by Aaron in #33 and expounded on by you in #34-5.

I agree with you that "status" is what gives these frogs value (they certainly have limited food value).

Simplistic as it may be, ultimately I think that there are only two ways to preserve these animals in the wild...make them so costly as to squelch demand (outright banning possession with associated significant punitive measures...ie ivory trade (perhaps education and shame will work? That would be asking too much)), or make them so common and available as to kill demand (ventrimaculatus).

Does either approach guarantee success? Of course not. Our record in protecting endangered species isn't particularly good, albeit with some successes with large mammals. 

Your point about Mantella and Ball Pythons is noted.

Will captive breeding entirely erase the demand for wild-caught animals? No, so I agree with you about market saturation, to a point. However, I do think it can take significant pressure off of the wild population....particularly when the great majority of hobbyists demand and can afford captive bred animals.

As far as Red Oophaga lehmanni is concerned, it seems to me that the cat is out of the bag already. The wild population, as reported by Stu in post #1 is decimated and conceivably may not recover. This is a unique case. There are, and have been animals in captivity (EU), right? Could possession be outlawed at this point? Sure, but you'd need near universal buy-in, and then what becomes of the captive population? 

To me, the safer bet would be to skip the righteous indignation and try to establish the animals in captivity. Yes, it does imply "throwing in the towel" somewhat, but I consider myself a pragmatist, and the ultimate goal is to prevent the extinction of this particular morph.

Flame on, everyone.

And happy Memorial Day. 

Ron






Ed said:


> Instead of implying that the rest of us are ignorant of the mechanism of supply and demand how about reading the links that would have told you that there was more to the issue than your simplistic example?? We're not ignorant of the laws of supply and demand but your simplistic scenario doesn't even come close to covering this topic or even being relevant at this point.
> 
> First off to reduce the demand you have to reach some level of market saturation. If you cannot supply enough items to the public when they want it, then you are actually going to drive demand and value up. Think of the must have toys that get sold out before Christmas and then surface on E-Bay for significant increases in cost. To claim that producing frogs and then selling them reduces demand is incorrect. We can even look at a simple animal for this model. The lowly ball python, which despite being heavily produced in captivity has not reduced demand for "ranched" animals and eggs removed from the wild. Or the fact that auratus have been pretty consistently imported since the 1980s despite being one of the most commonly bred frogs.
> 
> ...


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

No one was flaming you Ron. Let it go.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I think if the goal of keeping a species viable in the wild is greater than us being able to keep it in captivity, then there must be a change in tact for the red lehmanni. There are other frogs there that would fit into the model of bio commerce, but because of the scarcity of the red lehmanni, the most responsible act would be to use the current captive breeders for froglets that would be placed into the wild. Of course, Tesoros will need money to do so.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Ed, I'm with you completely. 

It's a sad state of affairs that these beautiful animals exist in. 

-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Ecichlid, 

Placing them back in the wild makes no sense, it would basically being a bunch of rich dumb people stocking the local poachers.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

a hill said:


> Ecichlid,
> 
> Placing them back in the wild makes no sense, it would basically being a bunch of rich dumb people stocking the local poachers.


 One would be working with locals to increase the difficulty on the poachers. In addition, what would you suggest do with red lehmani froglets that reside at Tesoros? That is, if they are not going to be exported. Might as well try to repopulate their natural habitat.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

I would accept it as a failed project on the conservation side and make sure the breeding group is robust to manage the population. 

I would also attempt to locate and purchase all poached animals any way possible and eliminate the captive population in Europe. I'd guess that this piece would likely cost between $100,000 to $500,000 alone.

If we wanted to go insane, I'd suggest doing dna sequencing on export frogs so you know you have the exact frog along with high resolution photos and place those in a database for the public to access. Only tesoros de Columbia would be able to update said database and all owners from their stock would be required to file every clutch and every tad with results on each and not be allowed to sell the offspring until the dna was recorded and the visual patterning was stabilized. 

Photos would be required to be taken with a standardized setup and back drop available for download or purchase from tesoros de columbia. 


Then, with the resulting profits over a decade I would buy the land they were poached from and restore it and then hire a staff of locals and international student interns to study and maintain and educate locals and internationals on what is the reality of things we do to get what we want. 

That said, no one will spend the time and money and effort on a beautiful red frog, and I don't have enough to myself. 

Maybe someday. 
Andrew


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I wish I could get the minute of my life that I spent reading the above post, back.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Unfortunately you can't microchip a frog as you can birds and tortoises and things or larger size.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> I think if the goal of keeping a species viable in the wild is greater than us being able to keep it in captivity, then there must be a change in tact for the red lehmanni. There are other frogs there that would fit into the model of bio commerce, but because of the scarcity of the red lehmanni, the most responsible act would be to use the current captive breeders for froglets that would be placed into the wild. Of course, Tesoros will need money to do so.


Actually there are a lot of problems with that suggestion that the froglets should simply be repatriated to the wild. First without any form of protection that involves and benefits the local people and government your simply supplying them to the smugglers. 

Second there are a lot of things that have to go right before you can let an animal be released to the wild. First there would have to be a dedicated facility to breed the frogs and they can't have been housed in the same room or area with frogs or other animals from disparate localities as the risk of acquiring a novel parasite or pathogen that could negatively impact the wild population is too great. In addition, you would have to not clear the native parasite load from the frogs. One of the problems with captive bred animals that are released is that the sudden exposure to parasites for which it has no immunological record but are highly adapted to infect it causes high levels of mortality. Don't forget that these frogs would have to be fed a diet that mimics the local alkaloid profiles otherwise they would have even fewer defences. 

And this is before we consider that there also needs to be some idea of carrying capacity of the environment. Simply dumping frogs into the wild in the same area doesn't mean that the habitat at that time isn't simply a population sink..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

a hill said:


> Unfortunately you can't microchip a frog as you can birds and tortoises and things or larger size.


Actually you can easily microchip a frog... Microchips have been used in amphibians as small as 2.14 grams. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Don't know how big these frogs get, but last time I took my azureus to the vet he was weighed at about 4g.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Ed said:


> Actually you can easily microchip a frog... Microchips have been used in amphibians as small as 2.14 grams.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you can send me the information about this I'd appreciate it. I had no idea this was being done. This is fantastic. 

-Andrew


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

a hill said:


> If you can send me the information about this I'd appreciate it. I had no idea this was being done. This is fantastic.
> 
> -Andrew


See for example http://www.herpconbio.org/Volume_9/Issue_2/Brannelly_etal_2014.pdf 

some comments 

Ed


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

This was an interesting thread. I'm not well versed in this topic, so this is really just kind of spit balling.

It seems to me that legal or not, the demand for frogs gives an incentive to the locals to collect frogs. So what if the locals were given a payment of some kind based on a population survey of the area. If population is above a certain threshold, they get a payment. If not, no payment. If the survey shows an increase in population from one survey period to the next, they get a bonus. Figuring out some kind of carrot seems more effective to me than any type of stick. 

Again, just tossing it out there, those who have commented above seem to be very well informed.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

a hill said:


> If you can send me the information about this I'd appreciate it. I had no idea this was being done. This is fantastic.
> 
> -Andrew


RFID 'Powder' - World's Smallest RFID Tag: Science Fiction in the News

Microchip Identification Tags

non-microchips
Frog Identification Tags


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## abIngenui (Oct 14, 2015)

So I am new to a lot of this and this will be a stupid question, but if these are considered illegally imported frogs absolutely, then could anybody who owns one have them confiscated and fined?


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