# Paludarium-Familiar mixed with Unkown, Warning: LONG READ!



## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Hi, I am beginning to gather the basics for a paludarium. I am a somewhat experienced aquarium caretaker, and I would like to add some terrestrial variety to my collection of ecosystems. For those who are unfamiliar with the word (its a doozy, I know) a paludarium is basically a hybrid between an aquarium and a terrarium/vivarium. I would like to create an Amazonian environment with some cardinal tetras(imagine the common neon tetra, but with red running down the length of the body) which are a little more fragile than other similar tetras, but they are native to South America, so they would be a nice addition to a dart environment. I also plan to add Corydoras that are smaller, and perhaps more subdued in color, and would like to have about a dozen tetras and half that many cory cats. But enough of the piscean world where I have plenty of knowledge, and into the area where I defer to the experts here. I plan on a total of about 20 gallons of water, because I have already purchased an internal filter that handles... You guessed it! 20 gallons! Originally, I was thinking about doing a 24x24x24/30 cube with a false back to house the filter, and use the filter as a waterfall, because it is a whisper 20i, and would be easy to do. Now, however, I am leaning more towards something rectangular, because I think that if I did something like an L-shaped land mass where the foot of the L is somewhere in the left side, and the land is obviously along the back, with a couple islands with false bottoms to house hardware such as powerheads for river-like flow, and a heater. The left side could house the filter, and create a left-to-right flow for the tetras. I would create a slope on the right side, so any frogs that fell into the water could climb back out. I was gonna do just some simple cork wood foundation silicone'd in place, and then filled with a good substrate for planting, cork wall, plants all over, really beginner stuff that is hard to mess up. The "river" floor is probably going to be some kind of plant substrate covered with an inch or two of sand, and lightly planted with something long and thin, grass-like and stuff. The terrestrial plants are probably going to be just as simple and easy, maybe an orchid or two to add some flair. I am considering some kind of waterfall pump, as well as a misting/fogging system. For heat, a dual-lamp setup, with one for heat, one for the lighting-needs of the plants. There would be plenty of hiding places, in the form of coconuts, and litttle caves built into the cork wall. I have no idea as far as what to stock frog-wise, hardy species with bright colors are what I am looking for, if you could PM me with any suggestions about anything, I would really appreciate it. If I left any plans/ideas out that would be a good idea, I would really like to crowdsource as much of this as possible, so feel free to PM or reply!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Depending on the species of frogs you want to try, you should have more than one area that allows easy escape from the water. The reason is that with the current etc, you could end up with a frog, that end up away from the easy escape shore swimming against the current and unable to get out easily. If the frog attempts to escape until it is exhausted you can end up with drowned frogs.... 

A lot of the frogs that are available (other than a number of dendrobatids) are not active during the day. I would have to refresh myself on a map to the range of cardinal tetras but your selection of dendrobatids is likely to be very limited.. 

Ed


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Ah, I see... In that case, I would probably be widening my scope to any new world species, especially those that are easy to care for. And as for escape from the water, I was thinking that if I built a "bank" that was just barely submerged maybe with just a centimeter or two, and had that run the length of the border between water and land, and made that slope up to the rest, it would be both realistic and safe. Sketches of design, layout and hardware placement coming soon, with photos of the spaces I have available to work with.

Thanks!


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

I am new to the hobby, but from what I have gathered, if you have water even an inch deep you are taking a chance that your frogs may drown. With a true paludarium most people only do fish, or sometimes get frogs that are more aquatic (Not darts). Either way the contrast between land and water looks awesome!

If you are into aquariums you may already have seen this site. Or if you have been poking around these forums much. But check out the paludariums people have on here.
AGA Aquascaping Contest


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

gardennub said:


> I am new to the hobby, but from what I have gathered, if you have water even an inch deep you are taking a chance that your frogs may drown. With a true paludarium most people only do fish, or sometimes get frogs that are more aquatic (Not darts). Either way the contrast between land and water looks awesome!
> 
> If you are into aquariums you may already have seen this site. Or if you have been poking around these forums much. But check out the paludariums people have on here.
> AGA Aquascaping Contest


That has been passed around for a long time.. The frogs swim quite well.... One of the original people had this to say about it 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/44331-deep-water-safer.html#post389747 

Most of the time people skip the water features since they take up space that can be utilized by the animals and/or because it is difficult to ensure that the water remains in the feature and doesn't oversaturate the terrestrial section of the enclosure. 

Ed


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

*UPDATE: Found the place for the Paludarium!*

I have been doing some figuring, and measuring with my hands, (holding my hands up to try and figure out where would be a good place to house a stand and tank of the approximate size I am going for) and I have figured out the perfect spot. The space I have available is about four and a half feet long/wide with a maximum of 15 inches deep (nearly 1.5 meters by 38cm for you metric folks). I was hoping to do something kind of squat, unless you would say otherwise, and I would love suggestions, because I am not very good with numbers, or things that I cannot manipulate with my own two hands, so if you wanna shout out tank sizes in gallons and/or dimensions, feel free to do so, but I would much rather err on the side of not using the ENTIRE space I have, rather than err on the side of using more than what I have kinda set aside. I have a pic of the space, as well as some of the other animals my family keeps (it feels sometimes like they got the idea for the movie We Bought A Zoo from us.) The tank I keep Alice, my companion since second grade, in is kind of the porportions I would like to go with, kinda squat, deep and long. I will post a pic of her later, I kinda went nuts because the family just got a fancy new camera for Christmas, snapped photos of all the animals. 

Yeah, thanks in advance for all the help! Planning on using a nice, tall stand, so that we do not have to stoop to get a good look at the frogs and fish. All of my family is very tall, so I like to keep creatures you have to "peer" at close to eye level. At one point I fantasized about cutting into the wall beside the tv, and putting the paludarium there, as it separates the dining room from the living room, but it would prove too complicated and costly.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Here are some photos of Alice, the Bearded Dragon in her terrarium, she is older now, nine years, ten in March.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Ed said:


> That has been passed around for a long time.. The frogs swim quite well.... One of the original people had this to say about it
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/44331-deep-water-safer.html#post389747
> 
> Most of the time people skip the water features since they take up space that can be utilized by the animals and/or because it is difficult to ensure that the water remains in the feature and doesn't oversaturate the terrestrial section of the enclosure.
> ...


I was going to use a trick I read about in a series of issues of Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine, where the author (owner of mellowvision.com) used plastic egg crates (I believe the author of the article was referring to the kind used in fluorescent light fixtures to diffuse light) and window screen mesh to separate the substrate/soil from the water. That way, there can be water under the ground, but the soil does not become saturated. I may use some sort of mulch or other somewhat aquaphobic substrate to keep the moisture in one place.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tmos540 said:


> I was going to use a trick I read about in a series of issues of Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine, where the author (owner of mellowvision.com) used plastic egg crates (I believe the author of the article was referring to the kind used in fluorescent light fixtures to diffuse light) and window screen mesh to separate the substrate/soil from the water. That way, there can be water under the ground, but the soil does not become saturated. I may use some sort of mulch or other somewhat aquaphobic substrate to keep the moisture in one place.


That is one of the most common methods of creating a false bottom in this hobby (and has been around a long long time). I'm going to tell you now that if the water is contacting the substrate it will wick up into the substrate regardless of "hydrophobic" substrates.. Oversaturation of the substrate impacts a lot of the health of the ecosystem not just the frogs. An anerobic substrate doesn't process waste materials well, it also can cause problems for the plants. 

Ed


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Duly noted, make sure highest water level is still at least a half inch below false bottom... I think I might just make a cut in the cork somewhere at the height I place the false bottom, or where the lowest false bottom is, so I can have a guide for water changes for the fish.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

*Yay! Finally got my Tank and Stand!*

ElkHi, finally got some free time this holiday to post. Over the break I stopped by Petsmart (having previously worked at a competing local pet store, I felt like a traitor) to simply price enclosures. I ended up walking out with a Marineland 27gal. cube with a stand, glass canopy, and Marineland light. It works perfectly for the space I have, and the photo.s prove it. The enclosure will be visible from three sides, and will be visible from the front door. I am excited to finally have dimensions to work with, and will probably be running ideas by the community here a lot more in the next few months, so while you are here , please subscribe! 

Pix soon, I promise, posting from my phone means no attachments.
Also- dimensions are 20"W x 18"D x 20"H; Have fun!


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## pnwpdf (Nov 9, 2010)

You probably know this, but standpipes are your friend! Changing water levels is easy with a small standpipe located somewhere discrete.

I don't know how firm you are on species selection, but Vietnamese Mossy Frogs can be a good frog for a paludarium. I saw a really nice paludarium with them in it, in person, and those mossies swam just fine. They are a pretty hardy frogs, and they can get fairly large. They might blend in with the background though, if you don't plan your colors right. Just a suggestion to look into.

Edit: I'm not sure how much space they need, a 27 might be too small. Again, you might want to do some reading


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Right, I have the tank and stand already in place, and I have an Amazon wishlist all set up so I can keep a list of all the stuff I am still in need of. If ya wanna contribute, I can send ya the link, there is some really cheap stuff. If you contribute, I can paint a thank you on the inside of the door of the stand. It's just an idea, figured I could put it out there.

Also, on the topic of species choice, I am thinking an orange morph of D leucomelas(spelling?) Or D tinctorious, one of the bolder yellow and blue ones.

I dunno about a standpipe, I have a friend who worked for Marineland, I will ask him about drlling a standpipe into the cube, because the tank had a sticker on the bottom that said tempered, but I dunno if that meant just the bottom, or the entire tank. I will get back to ya on that one.

Also, feel free to leave your two cents, I love constructive criticism and helpful pointers!


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah, if I did a tank with the Reed frogs, I would probably do a species tank somewhere in the range of fifty gallons. I am only looking to do just a just a few darts at the present.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Ok, finally got pictures, here they are.

Also, as I was waiting on the upload, the bulk box of cork bark came via UPS, so I probably will not be posting at all for a few days while I figure out the configuration of the hardscape. Will be back with pix of possibilities.
Thanks!


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Hi, got some free time today, so I figured I should post my progress. I have the rough outline of the cork bark background threshed out, all that I need to do once it finishes curing is place the two parts in and do a little cosmetic touching up over the places I used aquarium silicone that are still visible, as well as large holes/cracks. Pix when I have it out of the clamps and in the tank!


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

That LED strip you have might be rough. 

I used the exact same light for about two weeks and noticed my plants were dieing. Switched to 6500K CFL's and noticed an immediate improvement. 

Now that thing sits in the misc. junk pile.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

what is a standpipe, and how is it used???


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

A standpipe is something I had no clue about either until it was brought up on this thread. I googled it, and from what I can tell, a standpipe is something you put in an overflow for fish tanks, basically it eliminates the "sucking" noise you get from the overflow. It looks a bit like a cane, and it really is simply put, a pipe that stands... in your overflow box and makes the water take a less noisy route. Since the bottom of my tank is tempered, I cannot use this, all my hardware is going under the false bottom of the landscape, out of the way and all. Thanks for the lead on the idea though, I may do another frog tank in the future with something like that, like a chopped-off overflow box.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

ckays said:


> That LED strip you have might be rough.
> 
> I used the exact same light for about two weeks and noticed my plants were dieing. Switched to 6500K CFL's and noticed an immediate improvement.
> 
> Now that thing sits in the misc. junk pile.


Yeah, I was talking to my friend who worked at United Pet Group (Conglomerate of Tetra, Marineland, and a few others, zoo med or exo terra maybe?) and he told me that the Marineland Double Bright LED Light would work great for plants. Guess what light came with the aquarium, hood, and stand? Marineland Double Bright LED.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tmos540 said:


> A standpipe is something I had no clue about either until it was brought up on this thread. I googled it, and from what I can tell, a standpipe is something you put in an overflow for fish tanks, basically it eliminates the "sucking" noise you get from the overflow. It looks a bit like a cane, and it really is simply put, a pipe that stands... in your overflow box and makes the water take a less noisy route. Since the bottom of my tank is tempered, I cannot use this, all my hardware is going under the false bottom of the landscape, out of the way and all. Thanks for the lead on the idea though, I may do another frog tank in the future with something like that, like a chopped-off overflow box.


 
There are different purpose stand pipes. The ones in the reef hobby are the ones most frequently discussed so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the most common google definition. In the cases we are discussing here a stand pipe is exactly that.. a verticle pipe that is held in place. In this usage it gives access to the drainage layer without having to disrupt the tank to access the drainage layer. 
Alternately usages of stand pipe occur where you place a removable pipe into a drain to increase the depth of the water with the top of the pipe acting as the new drain. 

Ed


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

ah, so basically it would be like an attached siphon tube that can be turned on and off, an on-demand siphon? I like that idea.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tmos540 said:


> ah, so basically it would be like an attached siphon tube that can be turned on and off, an on-demand siphon? I like that idea.


Not really.. It is a place where you can feed a tube down into the bottom layer to remove excess water to prevent the substrate from becoming over saturated and going anaerobic (old terrarium books refer to this as the soil souring). 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

That LED light just won't work....you are gonna need something a lot brighter.
Might wanna put back some money for when you find out this is true so you can get the right fixture.
Found this one for you and it looks like a pretty good deal especially for $50 and you get 4 6500k bulbs








Odyssea T5 Aquarium Lighting

That filter might not work for a water feature cause it has such a high flow rate.
Also I don't think this tank is big enough to make it into a plaudarium and still have a good amount of space for the tincs or leucs.

for drainage you could run this behind your background: Custom® Siphon Pump (36668) - Funnels, Pans & Syphons - Ace Hardware
or just drill the bottom of the tank or the bottom back corner since you have a stand but it would be cool to drill the tank and stand and you can hid your drain Reservoir.

I saw ditch the paludarium idea and just give those tincs or leucs all the space they can get.
Save the water feature for a larger tank...and for when you have more experience.

I would do some more research before you attempt this build.

Have you thought about a pair or trio of thumbnails?


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Ed said:


> Not really.. It is a place where you can feed a tube down into the bottom layer to remove excess water to prevent the substrate from becoming over saturated and going anaerobic (old terrarium books refer to this as the soil souring).
> 
> Ed


ED--
AHHH...evidently that is what I made for my paladarium--and it has a small 404 in it which makes it super easy to access both the junk that can be sucked out, and remove the pump to maintain...the column (standpipe) is of a plastic mesh ziptied together for the cylindrical shape...the baby endlers don't get sucked in... In farming terms "standpipe" is to bring the level up on a pond, but also is a method of controlling flooding by providing an overflow pipe that is vertical and directs that water through a buried pipe embedded in a headwall....thanks for clearing it up. Words and their definitions are important to any endeavor....


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

They aren't darts...but they are really fun to watch and quite colorful: firebellies...they love water and are good in a group...check 'em out...I have some in a paladarium...but be warned...they are great escape artists until they truly settle in. And try to find some dwarf acorus for the water edges...yellow and quite dwarf...good luck. You can always eventually turn your tank into something else when your skill level develops...(I say that to myself....)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> ED--
> AHHH...evidently that is what I made for my paladarium--and it has a small 404 in it which makes it super easy to access both the junk that can be sucked out, and remove the pump to maintain...the column (standpipe) is of a plastic mesh ziptied together for the cylindrical shape...the baby endlers don't get sucked in... In farming terms "standpipe" is to bring the level up on a pond, but also is a method of controlling flooding by providing an overflow pipe that is vertical and directs that water through a buried pipe embedded in a headwall....thanks for clearing it up. Words and their definitions are important to any endeavor....


Which is the usage the other versions evolved from to the other more modern uses... I use the classic version to control the pool depth in my box turtle enclosure. It allows them to soak at will but if too many get it (due to my overfilling it), it overflows into a bucket. I've also used the classical version to control the depth of the water in rain chambers. 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Now those uses would be really interesting to have you "sketch"--especially the rain chamber one (am considering making one soon--hopefully I have a trio of Lutinos...) Sometimes that proverbial picture is truly worth a thousand words....thanks...


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah, with this flurry of activity, I am doubting how feasible my concept is. The original concept sketches are attached, apologies for the messy notes to myself on the structure.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah, I have settled on D. Tinctorius as a species, they seem hardy enough, they are quiet, which helps because I am the only member of my family that is a heavy sleeper, and I really enjoy the colors of the bolder morphs. The rest of my family agrees that Tincs are the way to go, and a friend of mine is going to a reptile show in North Carolina in March, I plan on tagging along to procure stock for the terrarium, no shipping needed. Redesign on the terrarium soon.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

*Not drilling*

The tank I am using is tempered glass, so no drilling anywhere, unfortunately.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

well if you are set on tincs I hope you ditch the paludarium and just do a standard viv.
I hope you noticed the post I made about the lighting. the LEDs won't cut it.
I would jump on that fixture if you had the $ cause most fixtures I have seen with 4 bulbs were like $100.
Good luck with your build


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

*Re: Not drilling*



tmos540 said:


> The tank I am using is tempered glass, so no drilling anywhere, unfortunately.


Its unusual, as far as my limited experience..., that other than the bottom of the tank would be tempered...consult a glass place before you change your plans.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: Not drilling*



Judy S said:


> Its unusual, as far as my limited experience..., that other than the bottom of the tank would be tempered...consult a glass place before you change your plans.


 
I discovered that the side (not the bottom) of a ten gallon tank I was drilling as part of a demonstration was tempered during the demo.. classic example of what not to do...(it was the first time I've ever encountered a tempered ten gallon tank). 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

that was pretty funny to read...is there a simple test to determine whether glass is tempered or not???


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> that was pretty funny to read...is there a simple test to determine whether glass is tempered or not???


It was way more funny for the people in the audience... apparently the look on my face was pretty good plus the one word curse I was provoked into saying... 


Ed


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

I do not think there is a way to tell whether or not a tank is tempered without talking to a manufacturer or drilling. Anyhow, I am gonna try to keep power tools out of this build. However, the Marineland Double Bright LED is actually good as far as wavelengths go. Thanks for all the support!


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah, as I think about it, tempering something is a process where you heat something up, then allow it to cool naturally. "soft" glass is actually annealed, a process in which the glass is cooled very slowly, over a couple days, which allows much of the stress and tension to escape slowly, thus it is much easier to drill annealed glass than it is to drill tempered. It is actually cheaper to temper glass, because you do not have to part for heating it and allowing it to cool over a few days. Sorry it took me so long to realize that my dad is a glass-blower. Not much contact with him.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> that was pretty funny to read...is there a simple test to determine whether glass is tempered or not???


Looking at it with polarized light see this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/29409-how-tell-if-you-have-tempered-glass.html 

Ed


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

> However, the Marineland Double Bright LED is actually good as far as wavelengths go. Thanks for all the support!


Do you have any data to support this? 

My plants suffered noticeably under this light and showed immediate improvement when I moved to standard 6500K CFL's.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

ckays said:


> Do you have any data to support this?
> 
> My plants suffered noticeably under this light and showed immediate improvement when I moved to standard 6500K CFL's.


I also have assurances from a friend that uses them, and worked for Marineland for a coupe decades as a biologist. I think you must have had the single bright leds. The one I have has 6 6000K leds and blue moonlights, three of them. I also have a few emersed plants under one, and they do fine despite being on a shelf next to my furnace in the basement. So yeah, I have a data and experience that supports it, but I may need to add some more lumens once the plants fill in some more and create shade for the others.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Link didn't post. Marineland LED Lighting Science


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

Nope, I have the double bright as well. 

The MarineLand LED's are geared toward the blue end of the spectrum which is good for aquarium plants that require this type of lighting. (I think)

From what I have read, our plants have better growth with the red end of the spectrum. (Though flowering is provoked by the blue end.) 

I'm no plant pro, but I know from experience that my brom, orchid, and pepperomia were all dieing until I changed to CFL's. Now they are all very green and showing good growth. 

The LED's you have may be good for your "aquatic" plants, but they were killing my "terrestrials.'

Just my thoughts...


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

That's odd... I may have to invest in a cfl bulb as a just-in-case, I have a fixture for my bearded dragon that would work until I could figure out a light strip, which would be my preference, I should probably also apologize, I mistook your experience for something a bit more assuming and stuff. So I am sorry for being overly confident in my rookie knowledge, and thinking you were as inexperienced as I now realize I am. Thank you for the warning, I will make sure I have measures in place, because I think I am going to try the leds and if they don't seem to be bright enough, I will go to 6500K. Thanks!

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


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## intelsuit (Jul 31, 2011)

I have a 55g paludarium that has been setup for a few months. I have about 10 gallons of water populated with shrimp a Pelco and a Cory cat. I have an aquatic frog as well. I originally created this to house geosesarma sp. crabs. There are two left. I don't think I was feeding them properly. I have a male and a small one, whose sex is yet to be determined. I have added two dendrobates tinctorius cobalt to the tank. It is well stocked now with a good population of springtails. I feed them fruit flies. The tincs have jumped into the water several times but have been able to get out because there are plenty of places for them to grab a hold. The water is about 4 inches deep.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

tmos540 said:


> That's odd... I may have to invest in a cfl bulb as a just-in-case, I have a fixture for my bearded dragon that would work until I could figure out a light strip, which would be my preference, I should probably also apologize, I mistook your experience for something a bit more assuming and stuff. So I am sorry for being overly confident in my rookie knowledge, and thinking you were as inexperienced as I now realize I am. Thank you for the warning, I will make sure I have measures in place, because I think I am going to try the leds and if they don't seem to be bright enough, I will go to 6500K. Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


a CFL? you are gonna need more than one.
If any kind of light strip you should use the T5 like is posted cause everything else is gonna be too long and is gonna look bad.
You should really do this right.
You should really listen to us about the LEDs cause when the plants get on the path of dying it takes em a bit to look pretty again. I would have a backup ready to go. You are gonna need I would say about 2 or 3 to really get to bottom.
You can use vinyl rain guttering to make a light fixture.

I'm gonna show you the difference of an LED fixture and CFLs...
LED:










CFL(2 23w 6500k CFLs):









as you can see the CFLs are better than the LED fixture.
This is the last time I'm gonna mention it tho.
just to let you know I would listen to people on here cause we have been trough the whole trial and error process and know what we are saying.
I's not a matter of person preference it is just known that those Marineland LEDs won't cut it in this hobby.
if you are set on LEDs then maybe you should hit up Todd and check out his bulbs that are way brighter...11 Watt Day White LED Unit
besides 



tmos540 said:


> I also have assurances from a friend that uses them, and worked for Marineland for a coupe decades as a biologist. I think you must have had the single bright leds. The one I have has 6 6000K leds and blue moonlights, three of them. I also have a few emersed plants under one, and they do fine despite being on a shelf next to my furnace in the basement. So yeah, I have a data and experience that supports it, but I may need to add some more lumens once the plants fill in some more and create shade for the others.


Um I don't think you are getting the point that this is not aquatics and Marineland sets their spectrums and whatnot for aquarium use.
Your "experience" with emersed plants is very different from just regular plant growth. So Ckays experience out weighs yours.
btw the LED fixture in the pic above does not have 6 LEDs and they are not 6500k a piece....I down any single LED is putting out 6500k. You would need many LEDs to obtain that of a 6500k bulb.
here is the fixture I tested and was told by people it will not work and I did not have one single person say it will work...








I'm sure this is the same one Ckays tried as well.
I doubt all those LEDs equal 6500k.

Aquarium lighting graps or specs can't really be used on terrestrial plants. 
Anyway I would listen to people or they will be less likely to help you...trust me I would know...

I guess you are gonna have to learn the hard way but like I said I would get a fixture that we mentioned for a backup for when the LEDs don't work


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Dragonspirit, that is most definitely NOT what came with the tank. Also, the K refers to the "temperature" of the light. Am I correct? I am not trying to be sarcastic, or caustic or otherwise offensive, I honestly wanna make sure people check my knowledge without trying to make me look like an idiot. Look, everyone has their domain. With me it happens to be freshwater fish. I could swim circles around you when it comes to fish. I am not going to, because I do not try to explain something to death not even five posts after the person who needs clarification both apologizes and admits that clarification was bestiary. In short, back the f**k off, I know I was wrong, but I now know what is correct, no thanks to you. I am capable of admitting I have erred, and also capable of understanding that you probably have to explain things to people more stubborn and slower on the uptake than I. On a side note, I was originally planning on announcing that I have delegated the led to a fish tank where it will do more good than on top of a terrarium, and have already purchased a reptisun 20" fixture, t.... 8? I think? The grow light bulb/tube thingy is on order, will post pix once modifications for palud-viv conversion are complet, and lightstuffs are in place.

Rookies will make rookie mistakes, lets just move on, okay?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Your "experience" with emersed plants is very different from just regular plant growth.


You are aware that emersed plant growth is plant growth above the surface of the water which makes it equivalent to "regular" plant growth. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I doubt all those LEDs equal 6500k.


Okay it is clear once again that you don't know what you are talking about here.. The K stands for Kelvin which is a scale of temperatures.. which means that the color of the light produced by a source (whether it is a metal halid bulb, a led or some other emitter) is the same color as the light emitted by an ideal blackbody radiator at that specific temperature. Your usage here is an indication of ignorance. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Aquarium lighting graps or specs can't really be used on terrestrial plants.


Since when? 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I guess you are gonna have to learn the hard way but like I said I would get a fixture that we mentioned for a backup for when the LEDs don't work


You have yet to learn it the easy way much less the hard way. Once again, please don't give advice on topics for which you have at best a poor understanding. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> a CFL? you are gonna need more than one.
> If any kind of light strip you should use the T5 like is posted cause everything else is gonna be too long and is gonna look bad.


You do realize there are other types of CFLs than the tiny little spirals you have used, right? They come in many different wattages and formats, including a 96 watt quad CFL that is less than 17" long. 96W 6,700K -Quad Bulb 16 3/4" -Square Pin Base Here is a 250 watt CFL that is less than 20" long including the reflector. Budget 250W CFL System - Green's Horticulture I fail to see how you can issue a blanket statement that a single CFL cannot light a viv or why it cannot be run as a strip light. Here is a link to my CFL strip light build. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/77561-diy-rain-gutter-pc-lights.html



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> You are gonna need I would say about 2 or 3 to really get to bottom.


Adding multiple fixtures will mostly increase the spread and increase the amount of light up at the top. To get your light to punch down further, you really need higher watt bulbs or higher watt LEDs.




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> This is the last time I'm gonna mention it tho.


Somehow I doubt this.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I down any single LED is putting out 6500k. You would need many LEDs to obtain that of a 6500k bulb.


Here are some single LEDs that put out 6500K all by themselves. 
Bridgelux LED 3W white 6500K 7000K 
Cool White (6500K) Luxeon Rebel LED - 180 lm @ 700mA 
Cool White (6500K), 10mm Square LED - 180 lm 
Cool White (6500K), Side Emitting LED - 180 lm 
ANSI White (6530K) Luxeon Rebel LED - 105 lm @ 350mA
That's only through 2 different manufacturers.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Thank you Pumilo and Ed...your information was really interesting and the suggested lights will be checked out...when you have a "tall" tank, the plants at the bottom can suffer...so what would you suggest? Oh, and also loved the comment Originally Posted by DragonSpirit1185 View Post
I guess you are gonna have to learn the hard way but like I said I would get a fixture that we mentioned for a backup for when the LEDs don't work--who is the "we?"


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

tmos540 said:


> That's odd... I may have to invest in a cfl bulb as a just-in-case, I have a fixture for my bearded dragon that would work until I could figure out a light strip, which would be my preference, I should probably also apologize, I mistook your experience for something a bit more assuming and stuff. So I am sorry for being overly confident in my rookie knowledge, and thinking you were as inexperienced as I now realize I am. Thank you for the warning, I will make sure I have measures in place, because I think I am going to try the leds and if they don't seem to be bright enough, I will go to 6500K. Thanks!


No reason to apologize. I am by no means an experienced keeper of PDF's. I do have some knowledge on lighting, but in this particular case I am just going off of pure observation. I have that exact light and I observed some things about it that may be helpful to you. As long as your temperatures are correct, you can try it out for yourself, plants are hardy, they will bounce back if you decide you need to change bulbs. 



> You should really listen to us about the LEDs


Please do not include me in the proverbial "us" he is describing. I was simply having a discussion about your lighting, I don't believe I was, nor would I ever intend, to be as pushy as this statement sounds.



> I down any single LED is putting out 6500k. You would need many LEDs to obtain that of a 6500k bulb.


This is a giant load of crap. 
Ed and Doug already took care of the plethora of issues I have with the post this came from, (much appreciated guys) but I had to at least point this out for what it is and it sums up my thoughts on all of the mis-information from said post quite nicely.


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

Oh son of a B*** In glazing through the BS, there are a few more things I missed that I cannot let go...



> So Ckays experience out weighs yours.


Ridiculous. Completely out of line to make a comment like this.



> I'm sure this is the same one Ckays tried as well.


Please don't speak for me, you have no idea what I have tried Brandon.



> Aquarium lighting graps or specs can't really be used on terrestrial plants.


I have never heard of a grap. 
I know this has been pointed out already, but I want to reiterate that is absolutely false. I actually appreciated the graph tmos linked to as it put hard data behind my observations. A graph is a graph, the light doesn't have different characteristics when you place a tub of water under it...


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

ckays said:


> Oh son of a B*** In glazing through the BS, there are a few more things I missed that I cannot let go...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and of course manipulate it why don't you.
I said that that might have been the fixture you tried. 
He said he has experience with aquatics and not vivariums so yes you do have more experience. Also you have tried the LED fixture and you know it didn't work as you have said so you do have more experience with it when used with a vivarium lol.
and I meant graph....it was a typo.
From what I have been told the water can manipulate light and I figured the graphs measure the light output from beneath the surface of the water not as the light is itself. I bet if you took a water proof light meter and placed it in the water the reading would be different than the fixture sitting on top of an empty tank especially if the water isn't crystal clear.



also about the LEDs being 6500K I was referring to the LEDs on that particular fixture in comparison to the power of a 6500K CFL.
I said I doubt they do as in I'm not sure.

Get over yourselves and act like adults even when people do make mistakes.
Have you all thought about maybe doing theater cause wow the dramatics are over the top LOL
Not everyone has to chime is haha


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks everyone, ckays, ed, pumilo, I am glad you guys would stand up for me and my rookie ways, is there some way to get a mod on this? I would really like to pursue getting Brandon banned from posting on this thread or something. Or, we could just let Brandon do the right thing and stop talking, weird stuff happens when you try talking around your own foot.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

don't suggest that...you may get a warning. I, and many others, have the same issue about incorrect information...and wish there were a method by which to warn readers...maybe an icon or something....the "experts" with years of experience are the keepers of the truth and I believe are exhibiting extreme patience and dilligence to stay on top of this whole thing...sorry that you, like me, have gone over the edge...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> and of course manipulate it why don't you.
> I said that that might have been the fixture you tried.


This was not manipulated. You did NOT sat it "might have been...", You stated, "I'm *SURE* this is the same...". The word sure, means that you are confident, positive, it means it is indisputable fact. It was made up information, in other words, a lie. You followed it up with another lie in trying to claim otherwise. It's right there in black and white, Brandon. Go back and read it for yourself. Here is the quote, right here and it is UN-MANIPULATED!



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I'm sure this is the same one Ckays tried as well.





DragonSpirit1185 said:


> From what I have been told the water can manipulate light and I figured the graphs measure the light output from beneath the surface of the water not as the light is itself. I bet if you took a water proof light meter and placed it in the water the reading would be different than the fixture sitting on top of an empty tank especially if the water isn't crystal clear.


Water plants use 65K as do terrestrial plants. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are lumping information about DEEP-WATER corals in your information. Plants are plants and 4" to 12" of water or so makes no difference on the spectrum. Color shift comes into play with many feet of water. It doesn't apply to plants. Please don't pretend you know anything about corals and lighting corals. I have over 10 years experience owning and operating a coral farm. My experience there will spank you soundly. 





DragonSpirit1185 said:


> also about the LEDs being 6500K I was referring to the LEDs on that particular fixture in comparison to the power of a 6500K CFL.
> I said I doubt they do as in I'm not sure.


Another outright lie. You said, "You would need many LEDs to obtain that of a 6500k bulb." That statement, by it's very nature, disassociates itself from talking about any specific fixture. It is a blanket statement that covers all LEDs. You don't say anything about doubting anything. You state it as fact and it is proven wrong. You also stated this was the last you would be mentioning this. Uh-oh, caught in another lie. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Get over yourselves and act like adults even when people do make mistakes.


Other people put forth opinions and possible solutions. They are still corrected when wrong. I am corrected here on Dendroboard by many. To name just a few, I've been corrected by Ed, Skysdale, James67, Frogparty and others. I embrace it as a learning experience. 
You, on the other hand, put forth your incorrect pile of stinking... and present it as fact. Quit making things up and presenting them as facts and you'll quit getting your hand slapped.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

tmos540 said:


> Thanks everyone, ckays, ed, pumilo, I am glad you guys would stand up for me and my rookie ways, is there some way to get a mod on this? I would really like to pursue getting Brandon banned from posting on this thread or something. Or, we could just let Brandon do the right thing and stop talking, weird stuff happens when you try talking around your own foot.


You're welcome. We try to make sure you new guys know about it when bad information comes your way.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> Thank you Pumilo and Ed...your information was really interesting and the suggested lights will be checked out...when you have a "tall" tank, the plants at the bottom can suffer...


I'm setting up a 36 inch high front opening cube and I'm simply going to reduce the plants at the bottom to a couple of low light species (haven't decided which yet) but I'm going to cover the floor with a lot of leaf litter. If we look at the habitat of the tropics, you get a lot of floor plant growth in areas where there is disturbance or along the sides of streams where the light can penetrate. 

I'm using T5HOs for the lighting as well as a 96 watt 17 inch power compact... between the bromeliads and other epiphytes, I'm not expecting to get a lot of lot penetration. So to deal with this when I get around to planting it, I'm planting it from the top down.. instead of from the bottom up..... This is how I would deal with the light penetration.... I would work from the top down and try to estimate how much the plant(s) will spread out and block the light. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Judy S said:


> Thank you Pumilo and Ed...your information was really interesting and the suggested lights will be checked out...when you have a "tall" tank, the plants at the bottom can suffer...so what would you suggest? Oh, and also loved the comment Originally Posted by DragonSpirit1185 View Post
> I guess you are gonna have to learn the hard way but like I said I would get a fixture that we mentioned for a backup for when the LEDs don't work--who is the "we?"


Hey Judy, while I do not have personal experience with them, the higher wattage LED spotlights that Todd (light your reptiles) sells are said to really have the punch to get down low on a tall tank. You should read this and talk to Azurel about them as he has firsthand experience. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/75802-new-r-variabilis-viv.html They might be nice in combination with another lighting source, like T5, too.
Some people's idea of learning the hard way is simply to never learn.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

O.O Doug, you own a coral farm?! kudos for the aquaculture, I love saltwater tanks that showcase a species that has been farm-raised, because it means that the species in question is left alone a little more, and that the people who talk to the owner know that corals are in danger from the hobby, as well as how good it is to buy corals that aren't wild.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

tmos540 said:


> O.O Doug, you own a coral farm?! kudos for the aquaculture, I love saltwater tanks that showcase a species that has been farm-raised, because it means that the species in question is left alone a little more, and that the people who talk to the owner know that corals are in danger from the hobby, as well as how good it is to buy corals that aren't wild.


Thanks, but not anymore. I used to own/operate ColoradoCoralFarms.com and was also co-owner of Fragshop.com. After 10 years it finally became more business than pleasure and at that time I was ready to let others handle the aquaculture business. It's the kind of thing that really needs to be your passion and not just a business. When I was no longer excited to see the next shipment come in, I thought it was time to move on.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Whoops, accidentally posted before I got my thoughts written down. Yeah, I am basically just gonna go with a coconut over expanded clay, leaf litter, and some little hidey-holes for the bottom of the tank, maybe some moss lower on the cork bark. One thing I would like to include is a bromeliad, because I know frogs love them. I was going to maybe look/ask around at the vendors for repticon in south carolina in march, see what they would be brining in terms of bromeliads, because with a "centerpiece" plant, I would really like to be able to look at it with my own eyes, as well as not paying for postage. Anyone going to the SC Repticon? It will be my first, probably not last, but I plan on buying frogs for this tank there, and using an ac inverter in my car for a heating pad to heat a ten gallon tank in my passenger footspace. It is a few hours away, so I figure if I set up a little viv in my car for transport, then keep them in that until they get over the stress of moving, and then move them into the display tank, it should be easy on the frogs, right?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

tmos540 said:


> Whoops, accidentally posted before I got my thoughts written down. Yeah, I am basically just gonna go with a coconut over expanded clay, leaf litter, and some little hidey-holes for the bottom of the tank, maybe some moss lower on the cork bark. One thing I would like to include is a bromeliad, because I know frogs love them. I was going to maybe look/ask around at the vendors for repticon in south carolina in march, see what they would be brining in terms of bromeliads, because with a "centerpiece" plant, I would really like to be able to look at it with my own eyes, as well as not paying for postage. Anyone going to the SC Repticon? It will be my first, probably not last, but I plan on buying frogs for this tank there, and using an ac inverter in my car for a heating pad to heat a ten gallon tank in my passenger footspace. It is a few hours away, so I figure if I set up a little viv in my car for transport, then keep them in that until they get over the stress of moving, and then move them into the display tank, it should be easy on the frogs, right?


Your transport plans are overkill. Just transport them in some deli cups with some damp sphagnum moss and maybe a few live leaves. Is your car heater broken? If it's comfortable for you, it's comfortable for them. You could use a cooler if you are worried. A heating pad could cook them. I'd rather have my frogs get a little cool than a little too hot any day.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

tmos540 said:


> Thanks everyone, ckays, ed, pumilo, I am glad you guys would stand up for me and my rookie ways, is there some way to get a mod on this? I would really like to pursue getting Brandon banned from posting on this thread or something. Or, we could just let Brandon do the right thing and stop talking, weird stuff happens when you try talking around your own foot.


Meh as it would be awesome to keep certain people off your threads this is a public forum and the only thing you can do is use the ignore function.
You can't make any certain person stay off your thread.
Like I mentioned to Ckays in PM I'm a bit under the weather and I didn't explain everything perfectly and I even had a couple typos.
I know what I meant to say and whatnot but I could even have proof but it doesn't matter Ed and Doug are law and nothing else can be said once they say something it is infallible.
I'm glad I'm not under their influence.

So you don't want me to post on your thread again?
I will do that for you cause honestly I'm not a bad guy and don't wanna anymore drama but they will never stay off my threads and I have asked them numerous times to do so.
I don't see them telling you the LED fixture won't work yet I am pretty sure(which is not a solid "I know") they know it won't work either but they let you travel along to certain failure instead of trying to help you. I see you have changed your mind now but T8s are the best option either and might not give enough light to the plants that will be on the floor of the viv. 

I will leave this and not post anymore since you wish for me not to...
My LED fixture was the smallest one so of course it won't look the same but I was hoping you would get the general idea of the LED setup.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/72415-marineland-led-fixture-cfl-q.html
The LED fixture you have is the new design and they are pretty much the same as the old ones but even less LEDs yet the old one's were "single bright" and the new ones are "double bright"
I wasn't even aware of the "double brights" cause I got mine when the LED fixtures first showed up at my Petsmart, those were "single bright". There is half as many "double brights" as the "single brights" so that tells you that they are pretty much the same excepts for the design of the reflectors that supposedly spreads the light out better. Maybe if they had put more LEDs the fixture would have improved better.
old fixture:









New fixture:









Even the double brights get poor reviews in both aquatic and reefing.
I know you say you are gonna go with different lighting if the LEDs don't work but I was just trying to be firm and hopefully convince you to just drop the Marineland fixture all together to save you the hassle lol.

----------------------------------------------------------------------




Pumilo said:


> You do realize there are other types of CFLs than the tiny little spirals you have used, right? They come in many different wattages and formats, including a 96 watt quad CFL that is less than 17" long. 96W 6,700K -Quad Bulb 16 3/4" -Square Pin Base Here is a 250 watt CFL that is less than 20" long including the reflector. Budget 250W CFL System - Green's Horticulture I fail to see how you can issue a blanket statement that a single CFL cannot light a viv or why it cannot be run as a strip light. Here is a link to my CFL strip light build. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/77561-diy-rain-gutter-pc-lights.html


Yup I sure do but he is talking about using T8s which aren't short at all.
I know about your DIY PC Rain Gutter thread and I was talking about it in a post.


DragonSpirit1185 said:


> You can use vinyl rain guttering to make a light fixture.


Someone already did this before you tho. Yet their's was a lot longer so when I was talking about it in that post I had yours in mind, since it is smaller.


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm not even going to respond to the above nonsense as I think it has become quite obvious how trustworthy the information is. 

Tmos, I am sure you will figure out the lighting. Trial and Error works wonders.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Meh as it would be awesome to keep certain people off your threads this is a public forum and the only thing you can do is use the ignore function.
> You can't make any certain person stay off your thread.
> Like I mentioned to Ckays in PM I'm a bit under the weather and I didn't explain everything perfectly and I even had a couple typos.
> I know what I meant to say and whatnot but I could even have proof but it doesn't matter Ed and Doug are law and nothing else can be said once they say something it is infallible.
> ...


Brandon, you do realize that your constant insults thrown at me and others can be considered to be baiting which is a violation under the TOS? 

If you don't want people to appear in your threads, don't post bad information that has to be corrected. In the post I made correcting you, you clearly did not understand Kelvin with respect to lights, emersed plant growth or that the same lights can be used for aquarium plants and terrestrially growing plants. I am not infalliable, but I also have a good handle on what I'm talking about and can back it up (try googleing Kelvin and light and check the definition...). 

What you posted with respect to the things I corrected were clearly not typos nor were your quotes manipulated. You still cannot take responsibilty when you post bad information. This is a trend with you to make some excuse and blame the issue on the excuse. 

Back to your regularly scheduled broadcast. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Someone already did this before you tho. Yet their's was a lot longer so when I was talking about it in that post I had yours in mind, since it is smaller.


What's your point? I never said I came up with the idea. It's been done many times. I state over and over again in my threads that almost all of my information comes from research. James builds them. WeeNe858 put one together. They are all over the internet. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/76908-building-your-own-light-fixture.html 
http://www.myaquariumclub.com/an-easy-strip-light-3807914.html
My take on Rain gutter lighting
looking for advice on rain gutter DIY lighting
lights on a budget


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Meh as it would be awesome to keep certain people off your threads this is a public forum and the only thing you can do is use the ignore function.
> You can't make any certain person stay off your thread.
> Like I mentioned to Ckays in PM I'm a bit under the weather and I didn't explain everything perfectly and I even had a couple typos.
> I know what I meant to say and whatnot but I could even have proof but it doesn't matter Ed and Doug are law and nothing else can be said once they say something it is infallible.
> ...


tl;dr, I have a paper to write, don't feel like sifting through all the crap to see if there are any nuggets of information that aren't misguided. I appreciate the thought, but thanks buy no thanks amigo.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Loved it: Some people's idea of learning the hard way is simply to never learn.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah, so to get nice pictures posted, I setup a photobucket album, the address is attached (I think that is what a trackback is). I have pretty much finished the rough build on the cork, when I build the false bottom, I will saw off some at the bottom to keep it even and stuff. 

Brandon, nobody cares what you have to say about me. So quit it, because you are beginning to damage my calm.

Ok, link didn't post, here it is for real. www.photobucket.com/tmosterrarium


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> Brandon, you do realize that your constant insults thrown at me and others can be considered to be baiting which is a violation under the TOS?
> 
> If you don't want people to appear in your threads, don't post bad information that has to be corrected. In the post I made correcting you, you clearly did not understand Kelvin with respect to lights, emersed plant growth or that the same lights can be used for aquarium plants and terrestrially growing plants. I am not infalliable, but I also have a good handle on what I'm talking about and can back it up (try googleing Kelvin and light and check the definition...).
> 
> ...


Same thing can be said about several of your posts.




Pumilo said:


> What's your point? I never said I came up with the idea. It's been done many times. I state over and over again in my threads that almost all of my information comes from research. James builds them. WeeNe858 put one together. They are all over the internet.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/76908-building-your-own-light-fixture.html
> http://www.myaquariumclub.com/an-easy-strip-light-3807914.html
> My take on Rain gutter lighting
> ...


LOL never claimed that you said it was originally your idea or that you did it first. I was simply saying that even tho there are others that have done this before you I was actually referring to your build since it was smaller. Just to kinda point out I know about your DIY PC fixture build.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

tmos I wasn't saying anything about you personally in that last post just explaining about the fixtures and the fixture you have is actually worse than I expected and I would be surprised if it could grow anything. Would make a nice closet light tho.
I'm unsubscribing now.
Don't need nor want anymore of this silly drama


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Ed View Post
> Brandon, you do realize that your constant insults thrown at me and others can be considered to be baiting which is a violation under the TOS?
> 
> ...


I am going to vehemently disagree with this statement.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

I dunno about you guys, but all I bothered with reading was the part where Brandon said he was not gonna post anything further.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Mist King stuff came today, nothing special, just the starter with the plus pack, have it all set up minus the reservoir, which is only because I do not have the Spade bit, or any bit for that matter, that is a 9/16". I will grab one at school tomorrow, hopefully get it up and running, but other than that, the spray heads are in place, I just need to put silicone in to hold them there a little more firmly. Also, opinions on the Zoo Med Flora Plant Fluorescent tube as far as UV light for tincs? I really enjoy the smooth, even lighting that a tube gives, even if they are a little more expensive and fragile. The tube is supposed to be terrific for plants, but what about the UV needs of the frogs, which I know to be less than that of Alice, my beardie, who has a uv combo lamp on her, and it would definitely fall under the Forest or Tropical classification, but seeing as this tank is tucked away kind of in the center of the house, and the nearest window is a northern exposure, I feel like I need to provide the frogs with more UV. 

Also, thanks for reigning me in on the shipping method, Ed, I am just a bit overly cautious, I tend to get new-mother syndrome whenever I buy a new creature to be displayed in a glass cage. One of my friends said that my Malawi Peacock Cichlids (which I keep in the 90gal that was installed into the wall by the house's previous owners) are like my children. Which would mean that that woman on 20ish and counting got nothing on me. It was funny, because I bought new breeding guppy stock for the first time in a while, and I was nuts bringing them home. It was a warmish day, about 45, maybe 50, and I caught myself bundling them in my hoodie to keep them warm because my car is slow to heat up. I guess it is just the fact that I am practically their god, I provide all for them, the only world they know is one I created and control. So I feel protective of them... Or rather I feel so protective of them. Yeah I need to stop rambling and start typing about Crime and Punishment. One of the few Russian things I do not enjoy...


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

tmos540 said:


> Right, I have the tank and stand already in place, and I have an Amazon wishlist all set up so I can keep a list of all the stuff I am still in need of. If ya wanna contribute, I can send ya the link, there is some really cheap stuff. If you contribute, I can paint a thank you on the inside of the door of the stand. It's just an idea, figured I could put it out there.
> 
> Also, on the topic of species choice, I am thinking an orange morph of D leucomelas(spelling?) Or D tinctorious, one of the bolder yellow and blue ones.
> 
> ...


I feel like I need to add more emphasis on helpful in the last line there.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

What are you siliconing on the Mist King misters? I've never had to silicone anything on my Mist Kings.


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

I would highly recoomend a very solid reading of the following thread before investing in a UVB bulb. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/73268-uvb-exposure-dendrobates.html

It's not nearly as simple as just adding a bulb and if you are going to make it worthwhile you are going to want to go through the above thread in great detail.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ckays said:


> I would highly recoomend a very solid reading of the following thread before investing in a UVB bulb.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/73268-uvb-exposure-dendrobates.html
> 
> It's not nearly as simple as just adding a bulb and if you are going to make it worthwhile you are going to want to go through the above thread in great detail.


Agreed, beginners can rely on Repashy Calcium plus to supply your frogs with vitamins, calcium, and vitamin D instead of using UV lights. UV lights can be beneficial but are not necessary and will take some studying. At this point in the game, most intermediate and even most advanced froggers are not yet using UV.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> What are you siliconing on the Mist King misters? I've never had to silicone anything on my Mist Kings.


I'm with Doug, I can think of several reasons to never silcone the mist heads into place, the first is that if it clogs you will have a real nightmare dealing with it..... 

Ed


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Ok, I will stick to the powder for calcium and vita d. I ran thr tubing around the top, just under the rim, I will post pix once I am home again, but I use silicone as glue to hold things in place due to its non-permenant and nontoxic nature. I would probably use the clips, stick some silicone in the place you can already wedge the clips temporarily, and let it set. I generally use silicone as one might use hot glue, for most of the same reasons.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

tmos540 said:


> Ok, I will stick to the powder for calcium and vita d. I ran thr tubing around the top, just under the rim, I will post pix once I am home again, but I use silicone as glue to hold things in place due to its non-permenant and nontoxic nature. I would probably use the clips, stick some silicone in the place you can already wedge the clips temporarily, and let it set. I generally use silicone as one might use hot glue, for most of the same reasons.


Oh, so you are not drilling the top to install the misters with their bulkheads? That would keep the hose out of the tank, above it. Drilling glass is not that difficult. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/58594-how-drill-your-glass.html
As far as UV goes, follow the thread Ckays linked. It should remain a long term goal for most of us. I'm just waiting for Ed and Motydesign to do all the work for me!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> As far as UV goes, follow the thread Ckays linked. It should remain a long term goal for most of us. I'm just waiting for Ed and Motydesign to do all the work for me!


You mean I haven't done enough work in chasing down the metabolic processes?..  

Ed


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

No Ed, 

Now quit playing around and get back to work...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> You mean I haven't done enough work in chasing down the metabolic processes?..
> 
> Ed


We're waiting for the turnkey package, Ed. (cracks whip)


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Hey all, sketches of how I intend to attach the misting have been posted. I do not want to drill it because the glass top has like nothing to it, so opening it would be awkward. Also, I do not feel like having the timer come on when I am armpit deep in the terrarium. I would rather the water stay in the tank.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Good news everyone, a damages check is in the mail! A little while back some idiot jumped me, ended up worse for him than me, but the point I am trying to make is that there is a check for two hundred and fifty dollars is in the mail, and since I had a nifty little plan change with my insurance, almost all of the "damages" have been taken up by my insurance. I dunno how or why, but it is a nice bonus, and I am not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. The money is going to help speed things along considerably, and might end up taking me all the way to planting. 
Time to start putting together a list.
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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

tmos540 said:


> A little while back some idiot jumped me, ended up worse for him than me


You emptied a container of springtails on him...?


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah I opened a can o' whup... uh... Springtails on him. 

In other news, the new semester has been strangely busy for me. That being said, the hardscape is pretty much done, just a little touching-up left and then on to the substrate. I have been doing some research into frog density (population, not mass/volume) and I am considering a less well-known species that I saw in another thread lasted eleven days in a shipping container. Doug probably already knows what I am taking about, but I think that I am going to look into D. Lanzolinii(sp?) some more because I have heard almost nothing about them before, except for their apparent ability to be put together in larger groups than most of the other frogs I have looked at. 
Any suggestions and/or experience you would like to share?

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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

Tmos, I subscribed. I'm interested to know where you will take your viv.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Thanks everyone! I have just finished the substrate, expanded clay under coconut fiber. Anyone have any suggestions for soil additives? I was thinking along the lines of peat moss, but if you have a miracle mix-in that you like, I would love to hear. 

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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

Hi everyone! Sorry about the lapse in updates, but school has been nuts, and usually I try to build some, then post about it. I have simply not had time to do the latter, but in the time between posts, I have added a herpkeeper with temp. and humidity. I also added some basic plants, and *drumroll* D. Leucomelas!!! Two of them arrived today from Josh's Frogs, and after a quick feeding of hydei, they have started exploring. Photos are on the photobucket link below.

http://m1018.photobucket.com/albums/Tmos540/Terrarium Build/?o=0









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