# Are poison arrow frogs illegal in us?



## Frailey

Hows it goin guys...so i went into a reptile shop tonight and immediately fell in love with the Poison Arrow Frogs.

My first question is ARE THEY ILLEGAL IN US? im in CALIFORNIA...

I read tht Dart Frogs in Captivity dont produce Poison.....so id assume ther not illegal?

PLUS!!

If i could get some quick tips and pointers,stuff to DO and NOT to do when buying and caring for Poison Arrow Frogs..I would REALLY APPRECIATE ANY and ALL feedback
THANX


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## FRISCHFROGS

Besides State laws , you have to deal with City/ Country laws.
Google where you live for your state and county laws.


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## frogparty

Perfectly legal, otherwise any store who cares about their livelihood wouldn't be selling them. 
I assume you're in so-cal. Join our regional group, SCADS, and learn how to use the search function here to answer your preliminary questions. There's a ton of info on his board, so start reading!


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## frogmanroth

I suggest you buy the book poison dart frogs by Amanda and Greg siehler( sp). It is the best book on dart frogs for beginners.


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## jeeperrs

The biggest "to do" is look at your budget and see if you can afford the endeavor. It tends to be a lot more expensive than some people realized. You will have to think about what glass enclosure you want, what lighting you want, what kind of decor, what kind of plants, what kind of food, what kind of substrate, and what kind of frog. It is easiest if you decide what kind of frog you want and then build the tank to their needs. If you tell us what kind of frog you want people can help give a better idea on how to house the frog. There are some good books out there to read. So, spend a few weeks reading, then a few weeks building your home for the frogs before you purchase a frog. This will give you time to learn how to culture the food and to get your tank up and going. Welcome to the board.


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## jacobi

Read through these...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/11865-good-threads-read-beginners.html


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## JimO

All good advice above. There are video series put out by Josh's Frogs and Black Jungle that give step by step instructions for many steps in keeping dart frogs. You can search on YouTube for poison dart frog care and get tons of videos. 

We refer to them as poison dart frogs because the natives used the poison for blow-gun darts rather than arrows - just a piece of trivia. 

There are many types of dart frogs that are legal to keep and there are quite a number (typically expensive) that were smuggled and either came here directly, or more often were smuggled into Europe and brought here with proper paperwork from Europe. There is a lot of debate about the legality and ethics of keeping such frogs, which you don't need to be concerned with if you stick to the commonly available frogs.

Here are some basic guidelines:

Many dart frogs are territorial, so either the male or the female will not tolerate another of the same sex, depending on the species. Therefore, you need to be content to keep two or three frogs in one enclosure (see #3 for sizing).

You should not mix different species or different "morphs" of the same species - this is a hotly debated topic refered to as "mixing" that I don't want to get in to. If you search for "mixing" you'll find more threads that end up getting ugly than you could probably ever read.

Although you can keep one or two frogs in a 10-gal tank that is properly constructed as a vivarium, I highly recommend starting with at least a 20-gallon. Petco often has $1 per gallon sales and it's worth it to start bigger. I use a lot of 29-gallon aquariums for my frogs. You can upgrade to a ZooMed or Exo-Terra terrarium, but you'll spend a lot more. You can sometimes get a deal on Craigslist for these, however. But, a 29-gallon is roomy enough for a pair or trio of the larger species.

If you are on a budget, you can purchase auratus, leucomela, tinctorius (including azureus) froglets for as little as $25 to $50 per froglet. There are many reputable breeders on Dendroboard, including sponsors, who offer froglets. There are also an incredible variety of beautiful specimens from any of these.

There are great step by step threads on setting up every kind of vivarium imagineable here on the site. Just search and see what others have done.
Good luck!


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## Frailey

Thanks everyone!

Really appreciate the feedback,im deff goin to be reading books and threads.

:d


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## Frailey

I want Poison Dart Frogs,up to 4..mayb more possibly

The guy i talked to said they are one of the cheapest animals to have...

My knowledge I pay 50$-60$ for a Frog...Tank..up to 75$-100$ prob...then like 100$+ for Props in tank...then food is like 10$-20$ every few days i think.....IDK THOUGH IM COMPLETELY NEW AND ONLY BEEN INTERESTED FOR 2 DAYS!! 

RESPECT AND APPRECIATE ALL FEEDBACK AND ADVICE


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## IHeartFrogs

They are legal in have in the US.


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## jeeperrs

Frailey said:


> I want Poison Dart Frogs,up to 4..mayb more possibly
> 
> The guy i talked to said they are one of the cheapest animals to have...
> 
> My knowledge I pay 50$-60$ for a Frog...Tank..up to 75$-100$ prob...then like 100$+ for Props in tank...then food is like 10$-20$ every few days i think.....IDK THOUGH IM COMPLETELY NEW AND ONLY BEEN INTERESTED FOR 2 DAYS!!
> 
> RESPECT AND APPRECIATE ALL FEEDBACK AND ADVICE


I would agree with you on a few points. 

1) Commonly available frogs range between 40-60 bucks (which isn't too cheap when you want a trio or larger)
2) Most tanks will run between $85-$350 but that does not include the lighting
3) Lighting can run between $40-$500 depending on the size, brand, and type
4) Food is not too expensive. To get what you need will cost around 50 bucks or so. If you just have one tank it should last about 7-12 months (this is the cheapest aspect IMO)
5) The decor can easily run close to 100-200 bucks. You will need substrate, wood, and plants to start. That will add up quickly.


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## Ed

Actually a lot of things can be a lot cheaper.. When looking at the costs of the set-ups, you need to distinguish between functional and aesthetics. It is possible to set up a very inexpensive frog enclosure that meets the needs of the frogs... 

for example used aquariums are often advertised inexpensivly on craigslist or in the local papers. 

Wood isn't needed for the tank and backgrounds aren't really required either... expensive plants aren't needed either.. for example, you can house many of the "terrestrial" species like D. tinctorius, auratus, leucomelas, truncatus as well as Epipidobates tricolor/anthyoni with pothos as the only plant... 

The lids can be inexpensive particularly if you don't care if some of the flies escape to wander the house, and basic T-8 shop lights are less than $20 for a fixture and the lights at a local big box store are usually under $5 each. 

You really don't start getting into more high end when you start combining aestherics with function..however what we often see in the final picture is an enclosure that stresses aesthetics over function... as an example it isn't uncommon to see a heavily planted enclosure with a heavily planted background with very little open space on the floor of the tank for the larger "terrestrial" species (like those mentioned above) or some of the E. tricolor populations which is often found living in grassy or cleared area...(see for example ADG 9 Epipedobates tricolor) 

Now this shouldn't mean that doing things the cheapest way possible is a best practice but often people go so far to the other side that it also ends up outside of best practices again... It is just lucky that most of the dendobatids are adaptable... 

Ed


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## Frailey

This Dendrobates Auratus...(believe thts wht it is).....is one i can/wanna get from the local Reptile Shop...

is 60$ to much u think?

and hes gettin some Bumble Bees in (not sure wht the name of species is)...ther like 80$ though....TO MUCH??

ALSO-DOES MUSIC STRESS OR IRRITATE THE FROGS?....I produce music and I was a little concerned about tht


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## WendySHall

I am assuming that since you are talking about darts, by "Bumblebee" you mean Leucomela. A Bumblebee toad is something totally different...

If the Auratus and Leuc are adults and you can get access to the breeder for any info you may need, I would say that's a pretty good price for them if they're healthy. Otherwise, you'd be better off looking through the classifieds here for a hobbyist who has bred the frogs themselves. They are almost always eager to talk about/give you info on the history and care of their frogs. Also...if they are younger frogs, the price would be much lower than the reptile store and they will have probably been much better cared for.

As for music...my "frog room" also houses my computer where I play my music. Every day, when I clean, the music is played loud enough that I can hear it throughout the downstairs (and often longer). My frogs have been converted into 80's and Country lovers! But seriously...they've adapted to it since it occurs nearly every day. I turn it on and then slowly turn it up. They're also used to lots of people congregating in my little room and sometimes getting loud.


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## Ed

WendySHall said:


> I am assuming that since you are talking about darts, by "Bumblebee" you mean Leucomela.


 
cough..leucomelas...cough.....


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## Ed

Frailey said:


> This Dendrobates Auratus...(believe thts wht it is).....is one i can/wanna get from the local Reptile Shop...


When writing or typing out the full name of a species only the first part of the name is capitalized. So to type the name correctly it is *D*endrobates *a*uratus. If people know what you are talking it about it can be shortened to D. auratus or simply auratus. Sorry to be a little nit picky but my training makes the incorrect use of the nomenclature a little bit of a pet peeve.... 



Frailey said:


> is 60$ to much u think?


It depends on what you consider too much... if you are going to get an auratus shipped to you from another hobbyist or one of the bigger breeders, the frog itself will be much less expensive but shipping could add another $40-$70 dollars to the initial cost of the frog which could make a frog that is less expensive than the pet store's a lot more expensive (one reason people often order multiple frogs as that brings the price down). One of the biggest things you should be considering is how well do they clean the tank between different animals or are they housing it with other species when you go into the store and/or whether it is a wild caught frog or not. D. auratus are one of the frogs that are still being imported as wild collected frogs. 



Frailey said:


> and hes gettin some Bumble Bees in (not sure wht the name of species is)...ther like 80$ though....TO MUCH??


As noted by WendySHall Dendrobates leucomelas. Again, it depends on a number of factors. 



Frailey said:


> ALSO-DOES MUSIC STRESS OR IRRITATE THE FROGS?....I produce music and I was a little concerned about tht


It could affect the frogs but captive bred or well established frogs are typically fairly adaptable but it depends on some variables. For example, if you are disrupting the sleep cycle of the frogs with loud music and lights, then you may see some stress issues. Even species that are considerd to be bullet proof like white's treefrogs can show stress from traffic and/or noise (see the link here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...atment/76422-amphibian-sound-sensitivity.html). In general, the frogs are very adaptable and hardy but keep an eye on them. 

Ed


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## jeeperrs

You may notice on the classifieds that some people sell the auratus for 40 bucks or so. The problem is that you will have to ship them, which can be expensive. I think $60 for a local pick up is a good price. Ask the pet store if you can take some pictures with your phone. If we can see the Bumblebee we can tell you what kind of frog it is. 

I will reply about the music again (as I think I did on another thread you started). I kept my auratus in the living room. I watch TV and play music through the house. I never take it to the top of the volume but the frogs didn't seem to mind. The auratus can be shy, so when it gets loud they just go to their niche and hang out


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## WendySHall

Lol! Thank you, Ed! ***Leucomelas***

I don't know why I always forget about the "s"...drives me nuts when I misspell words! I'm gonna have to sit down and write it 10 times like my mom and dad used to make me do in elementary school.


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## WendySHall

Ed said:


> When writing or typing out the full name of a species only the first part of the name is capitalized. So to type the name correctly it is *D*endrobates *a*uratus. If people know what you are talking it about it can be shortened to D. auratus or simply auratus. Sorry to be a little nit picky but my training makes the incorrect use of the nomenclature a little bit of a pet peeve....


...and that one, too!
***leucomelas***


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## Ed

WendySHall said:


> I don't know why I always forget about the "s"...drives me nuts when I misspell words! I'm gonna have to sit down and write it 10 times like my mom and dad used to make me do in elementary school.


I was thrilled when I was able to access a computer long ago since I could then use spell check. I have problems with ie/ei in words so I'm always messing them up. 

Ed


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## Homer

Frailey said:


> I want Poison Dart Frogs,up to 4..mayb more possibly
> 
> The guy i talked to said they are one of the cheapest animals to have...
> 
> My knowledge I pay 50$-60$ for a Frog...Tank..up to 75$-100$ prob...then like 100$+ for Props in tank...then food is like 10$-20$ every few days i think.....IDK THOUGH IM COMPLETELY NEW AND ONLY BEEN INTERESTED FOR 2 DAYS!!
> 
> RESPECT AND APPRECIATE ALL FEEDBACK AND ADVICE


Like Ed pointed out, you can easily get into frogs for much less than what you are quoting. If it were me, I'd start out with a typical 20 gallon high aquarium with a glass top ($20-$40 for the aquarium, and it might include the glass top . . . if not, add another $15-$20, or even less if you just buy the glass from Lowes). 

You can use coco chips, sphagnum moss, etc. for your substrate, which is quite inexpensive. Buy a few coconut huts, get some magnolia leaves or oak leaves, and a $2-$5 pothos or philodendron vine, and you're all set.

I'd get the flies and fly culturing supplies a month or so before the frogs, and be sure you know how to start and raise new cultures. Once you have your first culture bought, starting new cultures once every week to 10 days is relatively inexpensive.

The prices you were noting would be fair prices for subadult frogs, but not great prices for small froglets a few months out of the water. For your first frogs, I would suggest some frogs of a well-started size. I think azureus or leucomelas are great starter frogs, as they're readily available, colorful, and quite bold. Nothing will make you lose your attention faster than not seeing your new friends out in the open as much as you want.

If you find out you really like keeping frogs, then you can start splurging on a bigger display tank or more frogs.

Good luck!


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## WendySHall

To expand a little on what Homer wrote...

If you make your own fruit fly media and reuse containers, feeding your frogs becomes *much *less expensive. Here is a basic media recipe you could start with...

6 c. potato flakes
1 c. brewer's yeast
1 c. powdered sugar
2 T. cinnamon
1 t. methyl paraben

Mix ingredients together and store in a ziplock bag. To make a culture, use 1/3 c of the above mixed media and 1/2 c. water.

You can get the brewer's yeast and methyl paraben from Josh's Frogs and they will last forever with only four frogs. You will be able to make many, many batches of media with what you receive.

If you're looking to really stretch funds when you start out, many people have simply taped seran wrap or plastic to the top of their tank instead of investing in a lid. I have done this myself in a pinch...but found that I really don't like it. It becomes a hassle to "unstick" it to feed and leaves yucky sticky tape stuff on your tank that you have to work to get off if you ever decide to convert to a glass lid.



Ed said:


> I was thrilled when I was able to access a computer long ago since I could then use spell check. I have problems with ie/ei in words so I'm always messing them up.
> 
> Ed


That's an easy one! "I before E except after C."

Don't know why many of the schools are dropping the old methods any more. The simply "look and memorize" is nearly impossible when it comes to the millions and millions of words in our language. Seems much easier to me to learn the generalities and then memorize the exceptions.


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## ShelbyFFS

You can certainly have more expensive pets. Frogs tend to have few vet bills. They don't wreck the carpet or curtains. I don't think anyone ever got sued for their frog biting anyone. All pluses on the cost side.

I think you have to consider whether or not you want to culture the food. If you can afford to raise flies AND have the desire to, they are great pets. If that seems like you'd get sick of doing it, don't want a few escaped flies around or overall think bugs are icky it probably means the dart frog isn't your kind of pet.


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## nonliteral

WendySHall said:


> That's an easy one! "I before E except after C."


Except where it doesn't work 

beige, codeine, conscience, deify, deity, deign, eight, either, feign, feint, feisty,
foreign, forfeit, freight, heifer, height, heir, heist, neighbor, neither,
rein, science, seine, seismic, seize, society, sovereign, veil, vein, weight, weird etc...


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## illinoisfrogs

Homer said:


> The prices you were noting would be fair prices for subadult frogs, but not great prices for small froglets a few months out of the water. For your first frogs, I would suggest some frogs of a well-started size.


Agreed. Assuming it's one of the standard varieties of auratus, like green and black, $60 each is pretty steep unless they are adults. As people pointed out, you'd have to pay shipping if purchased online, BUT the shipping would be only a single cost.

So if you buy 6 frogs at $30 each but have to pay $60 for shipping, you'd pay $240. If you buy 6 frogs from your local store at $60 each, you're paying $360.

Depends on how many you are buying, but $60 seems like a high price, and $80 is a high price for leucs unless they are adults. If you are in SoCal, you can get them local from people on here for less than that, and you'll know the breeder!


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## WendySHall

nonliteral said:


> Except where it doesn't work


Which is why you memorize the exceptions. 

Also, about half of the ones you listed can be figured out when you add to the saying "or when sounding as ay". Such as beige, rein, etc. "Science" I wouldn't include in this as you can clearly hear the long i and short e in the pronunciation of the word.


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## FRISCHFROGS

OMG has this thread gone way off the subject!

I have a question for Frailey. 
I am wondering how old are you? Do you mind sharing?


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## illinoisfrogs

FRISCHFROGS said:


> OMG has this thread gone way off the subject!
> 
> I have a question for Frailey.
> I am wondering how old are you? Do you mind sharing?


And how is this post pulling it back on topic?

If Frailey is under 18, I'd recommend that he/she DOESN'T share his/her age.......


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## jacobi

I'd have to check but I believe its against the TOS to post your age if you are under 18.


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## goof901

there are a lot of people down here in SOCAl. i'm pretty sure you'll be able to find what frogs you want here. if you're in somewhereelsecal, then idk


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## bsr8129

Im sure its safe to assume he/she is


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## Frailey

FRISCHFROGS said:


> OMG has this thread gone way off the subject!
> 
> I have a question for Frailey.
> I am wondering how old are you? Do you mind sharing?


I was jst starting to think tht lol

I jst turned 20.....why? if i may ask


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## Frailey

[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]



So guys I looked at this 10gal Tank the dimensions are 20''L x 10''W x 12''H....for only 14$ plus 15% off..sounds like a good deal...BUT

IS IT A GOOD SIZE?....HOW MANY PDFs CAN I PUT IN THERE?...

i read tht you shouldnt put 2 males or females in the same enclosure....

IM GOING TO START OFF WITH 2 PDFs...D.auratus..and prob a D.Leucomelas 

BUT MY GOAL IS 4 PDFs......


THE D.auratus (pic above) goes for 60$

THE D.Leucomelas goes for 80$ (pic above)..(doesnt look old to me)

WILL APPRECIATE ALL/ANY FEEDBACK AND ADVICE!!...THANK YOU!!


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## bryandarts

They Are Legal


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## illinoisfrogs

If they are froglets, not adults......I say they are overpriced. If you are in Southern California, you can find them from someone for half that.

If they are adults, the price is decent.

The 10 gallon tank is small. You can put 2 auratus in there, but they would be better off in a 20. 

Also, most people advise against mixing species. They could interbreed, and that is pretty well frowned upon by everyone. (in a nutshell, there are plenty of cool colors of PDFs, so we don't really need to create new colors........which is kind of the opposite of other "hybrid" hobbies like pythons or leopard geckos)

The green and black auratus (which is what it looks like is in the picture) is a fairly bold frog, but the leucs are probably bolder. Either is a good choice for a beginner.


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## Frailey

ANY SPECIES OF PDFs ILLEGAL??.....like this one?^^

CANT FIND WHT THE NAME FOR THIS ONE IS EITHER..


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## goof901

Excitobates Mysterioso (spelling??) but they are illegal in the US


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## Frailey

really like the color...thts a bummer


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## WendySHall

First...sorry about the spelling lessons. Didn't mean to wander off track. Guess I got a little too "gab-happy" and was having fun on a boring day.  



Frailey said:


> So guys I looked at this 10gal Tank the dimensions are 20''L x 10''W x 12''H....for only 14$ plus 15% off..sounds like a good deal...BUT
> 
> IS IT A GOOD SIZE?....HOW MANY PDFs CAN I PUT IN THERE?...
> 
> i read tht you shouldnt put 2 males or females in the same enclosure....
> 
> IM GOING TO START OFF WITH 2 PDFs...D.auratus..and prob a D.Leucomelas
> 
> BUT MY GOAL IS 4 PDFs......


If you mean that you intend to end up with all four frogs in that tank, I would say no, it's not a good size and not a good idea at all. Keep the auratus and leucomelas in seperate tanks. You should be able to keep 2 per ten gallon, but more room would equal happier frogs. Oftentimes, you can keep two males or two females together without problems as long as the opposite sex is not present in the tank.


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## Frailey

its all good Wendy  i need to learn the lingo,spelling,and wht not about the hobby anyways so thnk you for helping lol

My brother was wondering why the frogs need so much room?....

i assumed also tht the 10gal tank in the pic i provided above would do jst fine,even with 4 frogs..

(i wasnt going to say anything but,) i ran into this guy and he told me he had 23 PDFs in a 5GAL tank!!!!!!!

now thts a lil extreme for me,and totally understand how tht wouldnt b kool for the frogs but,after hearing tht,i assumed a 10gal would b fine for 4 PDFs MAX..

any thoughts?

2 random questions: IS IT BETTER TO HAVE 2 of the SAME SEX (breed i guess too) together in a tank? or OPPOSITE SEX? do i need to worry about them Breeding and taking care of the lil guys???

question 2: ANYBODY HAVE A WATERFALL IN THER PDF tank??? I REALLY WANNA GET THIS ONE I SAW AT A SHOP.......BUT the guy told me to stick with a simple setup....(to b honest,il prob end up doing it)....i want my setup to b forest like and a kool setup,not jst basic with BRANCH,POOL,and some Foliage


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## WendySHall

23 frogs in a 5 gallon tank is terribly sad. I'm sure that someone on here can explain better than me about how frogs set up territories, utilize resources, etc...but I just think about it like this... A couple of people can survive their lifetime in the downstairs of a small house (10 gallon). But they would be happier if they could also go upstairs too (more height). They would be even happier all of those years if they also had access to the yard (more vertical space). Can you imagine how stressed-out 23 frogs would be in a tiny little tank like that???

Keeping the auratus and leucomelas separate is your best bet. Search "mixing" on here and you'll see it's a very serious topic amongst froggers.

Same sex vs pair...I think they would be fine no matter which you choose. You don't have to breed and care for froglets if you don't want. If you don't pull eggs or provide a water source for them to transport tads to, it won't happen. If you do decide to breed, there are many good threads on here on how to accomplish it in the Breeding section.

As for waterfalls...I've never done one, but have seen thread after thread about people having trouble with them and eventually tearing them back out. A 10-20 gallon is really too small for one and the frogs would appreciate having the available space more than the waterfall. A tank without a waterfall doesn't have to be boring...you can include backgrounds, ledges, hills, and small ponds, etc that the frogs will enjoy and can make your tank look very interesting and beautiful. Just look at the Members Frogs & Vivariums section and you can see all of the different and interesting ideas that people have utilized to create some really unique and stunning environments for their frogs.


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## Ivan M

WendySHall said:


> 23 frogs in a 5 gallon tank is terribly sad. I'm sure that someone on here can explain better than me about how frogs set up territories, utilize resources, etc...but I just think about it like this... A couple of people can survive their lifetime in the downstairs of a small house (10 gallon). But they would be happier if they could also go upstairs too (more height). They would be even happier all of those years if they also had access to the yard (more vertical space). Can you imagine how stressed-out 23 frogs would be in a tiny little tank like that???
> 
> Keeping the auratus and leucomelas separate is your best bet. Search "mixing" on here and you'll see it's a very serious topic amongst froggers.
> 
> Same sex vs pair...I think they would be fine no matter which you choose. You don't have to breed and care for froglets if you don't want. If you don't pull eggs or provide a water source for them to transport tads to, it won't happen. If you do decide to breed, there are many good threads on here on how to accomplish it in the Breeding section.
> 
> As for waterfalls...I've never done one, but have seen thread after thread about people having trouble with them and eventually tearing them back out. A 10-20 gallon is really too small for one and the frogs would appreciate having the available space more than the waterfall. A tank without a waterfall doesn't have to be boring...you can include backgrounds, ledges, hills, and small ponds, etc that the frogs will enjoy and can make your tank look very interesting and beautiful. Just look at the Members Frogs & Vivariums section and you can see all of the different and interesting ideas that people have utilized to create some really unique and stunning environments for their frogs.


I agree completely with this statement, here is my first 10 gallon vivarium. simple yet effective, i personally think that keeping darts is already a challenge why ad waterfalls and such which of course is a whole other challenge onto itself.









I have an empty exo terra 18x18x24 that was given to me, the only challenging thing i will do to it is drill a hole in the back for a small bulk head to make it easy to drain when the need arises. This site is by far the best for info and help when it comes to darts. Folk around here really know their stuff and are always willing to help.


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## illinoisfrogs

just a little advice for Frailey, if you haven't seen the search feature button at the top of the screen, it's pretty good for digging through the posts and topics on the forum, as many of these questions are pretty common and you can read through a large variety of opinions.


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