# nearly 10 years in the making and finally my first dart



## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

You could say that the typical mistakes were made with a 20 gallon vivarium that I put together about 6 years ago. No animals, just plants, too many plants. 

After nearly everything died due to overcrowding and incorrect conditions, except for the live moss and something that ended up growing like ivy, it grew into a stable environment that I put a pair of fire belly toads into.

Over the past month I had been putting together a 10 gallon enclosure for a pair of Darts, nothing especially complicated. I figured out a deep level of clay Hydroballs to allow for proper drainage and the inclusion of a water feature. I topped that with Cocofiber and Dry Shagnum as well as live moss, some slate (to enclose and easily maintain the Micro pump) pieced together using pond sealant.

Yes, I should have used rubber gloves while handling the sealant since I knew better but I didnt make too much of a mess with my hands when done. I buried a Cocohut into what is basically a hillside that provides a downhill slope for an interesting piece of cork bark. This is what Im terribly proud of... a water chute that serves a little pond in one end of the tank. I buried the 1/2" tubing beneath the soil and it jets up and into the top end of the cork bark. The stream moves well enough, not too fast and not too slow.

Now, Im told that the piece of "driftwood" that I used would be appropriate for this highly wet environment and it jets out of the water. Im sure I'll find out rather quickly how it does.










I have one small "tropical plant" that I picked up from Petco, it wasnt identified, but I havent yet placed it into the soil.

I've used a pair of Utilitech Under Cabinet LED lighting units wired into a smart Lutron dimmer switch that I can control by network attached wireless remote or my smart phone (from anywhere). It puts out 162 lumens and operates on 3 watts (per module). Using the Wink smart home app, I've scheduled the dimmer to simulate the light output of sunrise, sundown, mid-day and moon lighting. They have a color temp of 3500.










I also have a multi purpose smart sensor that monitors the temperature and humidity of the surrounding space and will remotely warn me if the temperature starts to get too high for my new single Azureus! I always have someone at home that can help a frog homie out in case he starts feeling the heat.










Anyways, he (or she) is simply called Blue and after being in a stand-still for about 30 minutes to get used to being in his new home, he is quite the bold little bugger. I've got a few pinhead crickets as an alternative to the Mels and he is eating well and looking quite happy.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26372953/20160106_184224.mp4

-Dan


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## iminuru (Feb 19, 2010)

I totally know the feeling. I've been messing around just with building vivs in order to get exactly the way I want before introducing frogs 
Very exciting


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

Hey, good start and nice azureus.

Add some leaf litter in there and you're good to go.


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## jmowbray (Jan 3, 2016)

I'm I the only one that can't see any pictures?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Not a bad start, but the mosses you chose may need to be replaced in a short while. There are varying grades and types of sphagnum moss, and the lower quality stuff tends to start rotting and stinking after a short period in a permamoist environment. Additionally the 'live' moss you chose is likely one of several different types of temperate 'pillow' moss that can be difficult to acclimate to warm vivarium conditions.
You can leave it be, and see how it plays out, but if you were interested in paying shipping, I could send you some of the more appropriate forms of dried and live moss at no charge, that should work better in the long run.


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## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

I may end up replacing the pillow moss as I really want something that will creep around the substrate and root.

As far as the Shagnum (From Exo-Terra) , its only there for temp ground cover till I find other stuff. Not sure if this stuff will come back to life or not.

I may take you up on that offer. =)


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Yep, put a nice thick layer of leaf litter in there. Also, I wound recommend getting a couple of other plants, pothos is hardy and easy to take care of, and for moss you could go with neherp's moss, a lot of people have great success with it, including myself. Also, what kind of lighting are you using? It looks off to me.


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## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

I'm on the search for low lying plants as I dont have a lot of headroom planned for this setup.

Regarding my lighting, from my original post above...

I've used a pair of Utilitech Under Cabinet LED lighting units wired into a smart Lutron dimmer switch that I can control by network attached wireless remote or my smart phone (from anywhere). It puts out 162 lumens and operates on 3 watts (per module). Using the Wink smart home app, I've scheduled the dimmer to simulate the light output of sunrise, sundown, mid-day and moon lighting. They have a color temp of 3500.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

3500K is not gonna cut it if you want optimal plant growth, 5000K - 6500K is more of what you're looking for, believe me. If you want some easy low growing plants, maybe try Pilea glauca or Pilea depressa. A nice Korean Rock Fern or Rabbit's Foot Fern would look good too. I believe they can all be found either at neherpetoculture.com or joshsfrogs.com. Also, if you want the tank to last for a long time, coconut fiber unfortunately won't cut it. ABG or a similar substitute is best, which can also be purchased at the sights mentioned above. Believe me, once you switch out the lighting, put some leaf litter in, and get some ABG and plants in, it's gonna look great


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## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

I understood the 3500 was lower in the light spectrum but was fine with getting it just to be able to illuminate the tank. I wasnt planning to have a lot of light hungry plant life.

I appreciate the recommendations of the ferns and other small plants as I'll want to put together another 10 gallon tank shortly. I want to get some more morphs from my local shop and get another Azureus to make 2 pairs. 

I have to do all this quietly so I dont drive my wife crazy with what Im planning.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

It can be simple and easy, though, to light the tank in the right spectrum, all it takes is an exo terra or zoo med hood, or even a simple lamp placed over the tank, with one or two CFLs screwed in. Or you could go with the more efficient LEDs that have become more popular recently. With poison dart frogs, it is strongly encouraged that you have adequate plant growth and coverage, and a right spectrum light will cause them to thrive rather than merely survive and hang on. Plus, a tank in the right color spectrum looks much better than one placed under lighting with a lower Kelvin rating. 

Also, here's a thread that I think will help you:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/212962-whoa-there.html

It's not necessarily about procuring as many frogs as we can and keeping them in the bare minimum so that we can please ourselves with all the variety we have, but rather to build those beautiful tanks that we conceive in our minds and bring into tangible being with our hands, and ultimately giving the animal even more than is required, so that we can see it thrive and grow.

Just some thoughts


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## greenthumbs (Nov 6, 2015)

jarteta97 said:


> With poison dart frogs, it is strongly encouraged that you have adequate plant growth and coverage, and a right spectrum light will cause them to thrive rather than merely survive and hang on. Plus, a tank in the right color spectrum looks much better than one placed under lighting with a lower Kelvin rating.


More plants don't hurt, and they certainly do look good, but the natural habitat of these frogs is not so densely planted. They typically live on the forest floor, where there is lots of leaf litter but not a whole lot of light to sustain a whole lot of plants. Dart frogs do just fine in a tank with just leaf litter on top of the substrate and maybe a piece of driftwood for shelter.

But I do second the part about the tank looking better with the right light. A lower K light makes everything look slightly yellower, a 6500 will really bring out all the colors of the frogs, plants, leaf litter, everything.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Actually the lighting that most of us use, even the high lumen lighting, is comparitive to the lighting on the forest floor, we just don't realize it because, in the interiors of our homes, the relative lighting is darker than one would find in sunlight, making the tank seem bright in contrast. This explains why the issue with survival of temperature mosses in vivariums is more a result of inadequate light than the lack of a dormancy period, we just tend not to realize it. 

Habitats can vary from species to species, for example the remaining wild specimens of Excidobates mysteriosus live on bromeliad/epiphyte covered cliffs, where they come down during the day to forage. Also, breeding obligate feeders require bromeliads in which to lay eggs. You are correct, though, in that the habitats of Tinctorius consist of large leaf beds, but they are also interspersed with plants. I'm not saying you need to have a heavily planted tank, but a relatively moderate amount of plants would be best, both to provide cover and shade, and more mimic their habitat. For reference, here are some pictures of their habitat:




Also, here's a good read from Ed about tank sizes: 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

I know it's about mixing species, but it gives a lot of information on how the usable space of a tank per frog decreases as volume increases. Also, another more specifically on tank size:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/38159-how-many-frogs-can-i-fit.html

Some pothos or some other easy plants, maybe even bought from Lowe's or Home Depot or Walmart and bleach dipped would work.


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## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

I finally convinced myself to get a stable mate for the Azureus via Josh's Frogs as I cant source the 2nd one I originally wanted to get locally.

And you know what, that just lead me to get another Tinc pair (Patricias) to take advantage of the flat shipping fee for overnight. I already have the established 20 gallon if a group of four dont do well for long in the 10. I wonder how my fire belly toads will feel? =P

This is a short term solution as I finally figured out how to fit a larger tank size, an Exo-Terra 18"x18"x18", into my existing cabinet and will begin piecing that together next week.


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## greenthumbs (Nov 6, 2015)

Wait, you're keeping the azureus and the patricias separate, right? Never mix morphs. Keep the azureus in one tank and the patricias in the other.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Good catch, greenthumbs. Only the most experienced of keepers ought to mix species, you need to separate them ASAP if they are all in the same tank. Another thing I want to warn you against is impulse buying. It's best to have everything set up, all the details ironed out, before you get the frog.

Of course if I misinterpreted what you said, let me know so that I can retract what I said. Keep us updated please


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## greenthumbs (Nov 6, 2015)

sntmods said:


> And you know what, that just lead me to get another Tinc pair (Patricias) to take advantage of the flat shipping fee for overnight. I already have the established 20 gallon if a group of four dont do well for long in the 10. I wonder how my fire belly toads will feel? =P


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

Here's a good thread about multipecies exhibits. Long story short, it's only ever okay with species that cannot hybridize, and also don't try it now. I strongly suggest slowing down and taking time to really make sure you know what you're doing before you do. Also, if your established 20 gallon is or was previously occupied by another animal (Am I correct in assuming that's the fire belly toad enclosure?) don't put new frogs in it. Take it down, clean it up, and set it up for dart frogs. Add microfauna and wait a few weeks before adding frogs.

Can I ask you to post pictures of your 20 gallon setup?


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## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

I'll let you folks know whats going on this next week. I have no plans to hybridize so please rest your worries. =)

The Azureus that I currently have as a juvenile is quite small in this 10 gallon but Im guessing that he wont be in there forever.

Anyways, I replaced the glass top (3 piece aquarium style) with two cut-to-fit 1/4" plexi panels that I notched to fit the sensor probe and pump wires through. I'm currently thinking about drilling a few small holes into this new lid to let the air escape (and clear the glass) but not let those fruit flies out.

As is, the humidity has been at or near 100% and I'd prefer to see the little ones hopping around after their food.


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

10 years in the making or 10 minutes?

The ease to which you cast helpful comments to the side is a poor reflection on the title of this thread and its contents.


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## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

cschub13 said:


> 10 years in the making or 10 minutes?
> 
> The ease to which you cast helpful comments to the side is a poor reflection on the title of this thread and its contents.


easy there buddy.

I appreciate the comments that have been left here and I have taken them under future consideration. As you most likely know that not everyone will always agree with one and the same course of action. Sometimes, there are guidelines and other times there are by-the-books rules to be followed. I have 30+ years of reptile and amphibian husbandry experience and Im easing into my Dart Frog plans.


These 10 gallon tanks are my starters and will likely only be used while the little ones stay little. Im currently finishing up a second 10 gallon for the Patricias that arrived safely (from Josh's Frogs) yesterday morning. While I wont have much headroom (again) in this new tank, I will be planting a "Panda Face Ginger" for a little variation.

Also, instead of the Pillow Moss that I've previously used and have had success, I found some live "Mood Moss" which Im going to be giving a try. Though I wanted to order, Live Oak Leaves were not available at the time of checkout. Maybe next time though. =)

Lastly, though I typically have not named my herps in the past, I have taken the non-creative route of naming the Azureus morphs as Indigo and Cobalt. The fair thing to do would be to name the Patricias while staying gender neutral. I just havent though of anything appropriate just yet.

Till next time.

One thing though... Where could I possibly find some spring tails locally? I'm in the greater San Francisco Bay Area.


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## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

the work-in-progress 10 GALLON. Found a really gnarly looking piece of Mopani Wood from Zoo Med. Boiled and baked and then set into place with pond sealant.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

sntmods said:


> the work-in-progress 10 GALLON. Found a really gnarly looking piece of Mopani Wood from Zoo Med. Boiled and baked and then set into place with pond sealant.


Is the other tank a 10 gallon as well? 10 gallon tanks are too small especially when you're not setting them up right. There is 0 hiding places, no plants, no leaf litter. The frogs need more than that. 10 gallons just don't need water features wasting space. 
If you had 30+ years of herp experience then the tank wouldn't be so bare minimal and you would set the tank up according to the needs of the animal. 
Sure I have 2 Azureus in a 10 gallon but it's like a little jungle and nothing is taking up floor space. I'm also about to move and don't wanna start on their 20 long until I get to where I'm going. 
The light is not gonna grow moss at 3500. You need 6500K lighting.
You say you don't plan on having light hungry plants yet moss is the most light hungry out of them all. 

Sorry but I gotta agree with the one guy. It looks like you took 10 minutes to research when you say it's 10 years in the making. 10 years of research would show better results. 
My Paludarium was just 5 years in the making and look at it. 









I'm really not trying to be a jerk here but we care a lot about the animals and think they deserve better. 
Also you're mentioning fire belly toads idk why I hope you're not putting them together with the darts. 

Never get frogs until you're fully set up, come on man. At least give them a home until you get their viv fully complete and let it establish some. 
Even when I got my 6 Azureus I had a tank fully established. I put them in there until I got the paludarium done. 
I think you have gone about all of this extremely poorly and how you start off on here will define you your entire course of being here and so far not so good. Especially if you don't listen to people who are trying to help you to give the frogs what they need. 
You're gonna stress out these frogs building as you go along. 

You say you're not even giving them melos. Have you even started culturing them yet? Pinheads are fine and I hope you're supplementing them correctly. Though you need to start culturing flies ASAP. 
I hope you got more than "just a few pinheads" you're gonna need quite a bit of them. 
Lastly there is no sense in getting springtails until you get leaf litter. 

Take your time and do things right and it looks like you have lots of research to do.


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## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

Both 10 gallons tanks have hiding places. The first has room under the cork log and the other is a cocohut that is built into the landscaping, covered in shag moss. The second one that Im currently putting together also has these similar features but no pump and running water. While it may not be as well stocked with plants these are temporary homes as juveniles, which I've stated before in this thread.

I should have mentioned more clearly that the flies were out of stock at the time of original pickup and I just used pinheads as they were something to feed on the first day, FOR ONE MEAL. I've had a thriving supply of flies since day 2 with another developing colony in my possession. And they've been dusted with supplement too. They have been eating well, dont appear to be stressed and are active. =)

If the current lighting isnt sufficient then I can always upgrade, but from my experience, I havent had issues growing moss under such conditions.

Clearly, I can see that I've left out some information and that has alarmed some that have a higher level experience than my own. That's why I'm posting in the beginners section. Some are very passionate about these frogs, I get it, but please leave a little room to understand that I am a beginner with Dart Frogs vs you with knowledge heavier than my own.

While I have appreciated the kind (helpful) tone of several of the posters here, there are others that I cant help but feel that I'm being poked in the chest. I get it, its an internet forum and occasionally someone gets bullied a bit for not meeting a certain high expectation held by oneself. If it makes you feel any better, I just wont post again till I have a well planted and thriving 40 gallon Exo-Terra that matches the setup that took you 5 years to complete. Not a very welcoming attitude.

At the very least, this thread will be archived just like all the others for reading by newbies and the well experienced alike.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

sntmods said:


> Both 10 gallons tanks have hiding places. The first has room under the cork log and the other is a cocohut that is built into the landscaping, covered in shag moss. The second one that Im currently putting together also has these similar features but no pump and running water. While it may not be as well stocked with plants these are temporary homes as juveniles, which I've stated before in this thread.
> 
> I should have mentioned more clearly that the flies were out of stock at the time of original pickup and I just used pinheads as they were something to feed on the first day, FOR ONE MEAL. I've had a thriving supply of flies since day 2 with another developing colony in my possession. And they've been dusted with supplement too. They have been eating well, dont appear to be stressed and are active. =)
> 
> ...


Well you just need to do some more research. I haven't even been studying darts for 10 years but you claim to have done so so in all honesty if this was 10 years in the making you should be just as knowledgeable. 
Unless you mean it was 10 years since you have began to want darts. 
My paludarium has actually been a thought process for those 5 years. Put off mostly to do with life events. 
My tank is just a 40 gallon breeder on it's side that I got from Petco for $40.
It didn't take me 5 years to complete it. It only took me 2 months. 
Though I invested $1,000 or so into my paludarium.
Though you can do a lot with much less. 

Yeah I don't mean for it to sound like I'm poking at you but 10 gallon tanks are meant for adults frogs. It's just too small. Moss serves no purpose. I have maybe a 2 inch strip of moss in my paludarium the rest is all leaf litter. 

I'm not saying don't post by all means post but you should expect people to tell you when things aren't being done right. 
I have autism and I mean well but I come off strong or more aggressive than I mean to. 
No one is trying to bully, you well at least not me. I know what it's like to really get bullied on here. 
The best thing to do is just to research the forum relentlessly and listen to people's inputs and hopefully apply them. Just the way you have been replying to people just makes people think you don't care to make changes.
I don't see anywhere where it says these are just temporary. I just hit ctrl+F and it's only been said twice. 
*"The Azureus that I currently have as a juvenile is quite small in this 10 gallon but Im guessing that he wont be in there forever."*
That is just one and you're planning on adding another and guessing doesn't say for sure you're going to give them bigger homes. 
I know you want tanks to fit in that cabinet but it's just not a good idea. That's the main reason I don't think you are gonna upgrade because it looks like you're set on having them in that cabinet. That's just as assumption of mine, though. 
Some vert tanks would fit in there quite well. 

If you really want some springtails you can post a wanted ad int he classifieds

Last thing I meant to do was to run you off, my apologies.


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## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

As far as cabinet space, I could have had a custom made enclosure since a 20 gallon X tall would have not fit. The 18" Exo-Terra Cube would push out the back.

"Guessing"... was probably the wrong word as you are looking for a definite answer. In my head, I was always planning to go to a larger enclosure, how big (tall) exactly is based on what my final sketches will be. I have the habit of mocking things up with foam board to get a better 3D look at the space and the requirements needed. My current idea is weighing heavily towards a grotto or gulch in design with a high custom formed background with room for climbing and hideouts in the wall, tropical pool and waterfall included. Lots of taller growing plants, lots of ground space, etc.

I know where these dual enclosures will go, I just need to find a suitable piece of furniture to lay them on.


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## in2Diy (Dec 15, 2014)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Is the other tank a 10 gallon as well? 10 gallon tanks are too small especially when you're not setting them up right. There is 0 hiding places, no plants, no leaf litter. The frogs need more than that. 10 gallons just don't need water features wasting space.
> If you had 30+ years of herp experience then the tank wouldn't be so bare minimal and you would set the tank up according to the needs of the animal.
> Sure I have 2 Azureus in a 10 gallon but it's like a little jungle and nothing is taking up floor space. I'm also about to move and don't wanna start on their 20 long until I get to where I'm going.
> The light is not gonna grow moss at 3500. You need 6500K lighting.
> ...


You make some good points but are completely wrong about growing moss, in fact the 4000k light is likely superior in respect to growth of terrestrial plants and mosses. 6500k is just more appealing to some, I prefer a warm white myself and run a Vero 90 cri led system which is 2700k 

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

sntmods said:


> As far as cabinet space, I could have had a custom made enclosure since a 20 gallon X tall would have not fit. The 18" Exo-Terra Cube would push out the back.
> 
> "Guessing"... was probably the wrong word as you are looking for a definite answer. In my head, I was always planning to go to a larger enclosure, how big (tall) exactly is based on what my final sketches will be. I have the habit of mocking things up with foam board to get a better 3D look at the space and the requirements needed. My current idea is weighing heavily towards a grotto or gulch in design with a high custom formed background with room for climbing and hideouts in the wall, tropical pool and waterfall included. Lots of taller growing plants, lots of ground space, etc.
> 
> I know where these dual enclosures will go, I just need to find a suitable piece of furniture to lay them on.


20 gallon high and an 18Lx18W Exo Terra isn't any better really.
You want more floor space. Sure they still climb but the idea is floor space.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


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## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

sntmods said:


> As far as cabinet space, I could have had a custom made enclosure since a 20 gallon X tall would have not fit. The 18" Exo-Terra Cube would push out the back.


I should have also added, that I decided to do neither, last week. Other than what you did, which I have considered doing myself, or finding a good size 40 gallon...ish tank and putting it on it's side/back or have one made for me so I can save a few hundred dollars (Exo-Terra). I've looked at a lot of options, I just dont share every thought in my head with the world. 

I realize now, that in order to not get flamed by some others who may assume too much, that I may have to spend a lot of extra time posting (meaningless to me) statements of every little detail. 

By the way, I've got my plants and Im off to go bleach dip them now. I'd hate to have to reply when someone assumes that I didnt do just that before burying. =)


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

sntmods said:


> I realize now, that in order to not get flamed by some others who may assume too much, that I may have to spend a lot of extra time posting (meaningless to me) statements of every little detail.
> 
> By the way, I've got my plants and Im off to go bleach dip them now. I'd hate to have to reply when someone assumes that I didnt do just that before burying. =)


Grow up.

Most dendrobates are not difficult to care for if you actually do the proper research and put forth the proper effort into their environment. You should have named this thread something different because it's obvious you actually spent very little time researching anything to do with dart frogs. It would have been to your benefit to have spent a lot more time reading through threads on this forum before purchasing any frogs.

Let me just throw some things out here for you...for your benefit and for your frogs! Perhaps placing the frogs in a very temporary tupperware container while you redo those setups is necessary.

1. Get rid of the water features. They are completely useless, taking up precious floor space and will almost certainly become stagnant in those conditions.

2. Your drainage layers are fine, but don't even worry about live moss right now. Get back to that after you've established the tank a little. Put leaf litter in there. Everywhere. But like Dane mentioned, maybe you want to get some better quality sphag moss to avoid anything rotting. Either way, keep it in there because it will hold moisture nicely.

3. Dump a ton of springtails in there.

4. Don't worry about a background. Set up that piece of driftwood somewhere in the tank to create more vertical space. Maybe place some sturdy plants on it to add even more.

5. My opinion...don't buy plants from petco. Go to a local greenhouse or order them online from a source that can provide you with better information on what the plants could have been treated with. Don't worry about over crowding, your frogs will appreciate the cover. Despite the fact that you enjoy seeing them out and about, they don't necessarily always want to be seen and that's ok. Plant a few in their and if they grow too quickly, just trim them.

6. Your lights are fine for now, but you'll probably want to upgrade in the future.

7. Sounds like you have ff cultures going, good, keep them going and get those guys fat.

8. Are the two azures the same size/age? Sounds like one is quite small, and would likely be the most at risk sharing a tiny tank with 3 other larger frogs.

9. What about the tinc pair?

10. Ideally they shouldn't even be housed together, even temporarily. This is what some were referring to when they said slow down. The best practice is to have a tank ready to go when you get your frogs. It isn't so much the worry of the two breeding, rather the stress that the frogs will put on each other. Lots of factors come into play here, like the small size of your tank with four frogs, the size of the frogs, out competing each other for food and space, and just general frog behavior that doesn't line up.

11. Putting your dart frogs in the tank with the fire belly toads...I hope that was a joke.

12. Good ideas for reducing the humidity a tad and clearing up the glass.

Brandon has some excellent points as well, that you would be wise to apply to your setups as well.

If you are just getting started in this hobby, keep your setups simple and appropriate. Once you have some experience under your belt, go crazy, put some waterfalls and grottos and what-not all over the place. But hopefully by then you will understand that if you want those features, you need A LOT more space.

Everyone on this forum is happy to help in any way they can, but no one wants to deal with a new person to the hobby spouting out ideas and claims that are just simply incorrect. We care a lot about the hobby and so obviously care a lot about the frogs. As with any pet, if you choose to buy/adopt them, it is your responsibility to provide them with the proper care.

PM if you'd like and I would be more than happy to provide you with any sort of information that might help you with anything you have questions on.

Cheers.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

It's great that you are here posting in the forum. It is a really good idea to try to learn as much as you can about keeping darts. This is a great place to learn how to do it right. There are a lot of people here that can save you from making some really bad mistakes.

The reason that the discussion has gotten a bit more heated than usually occurs in these types of threads in the beginner section is the that you don't seem to be listening to the advice people are giving you. You are being told how to do it right, but all I read from you is how you are already doing it right or deflecting to a different topic rather than acknowledge what you are being told. You think you know what you are doing, but you really don't and that has more experienced people frustrated. At bare minimum, we can't have other beginners reading this thread and thinking that the stuff you say you are doing is going to work. You will find out, eventually, but we would prefer not to have other beginners go through the heartache that you are headed for.

Your builds have a lot of really rookie moves in them. Folks are trying to help you but you really don't seem to be hearing it. I suggest going back through this thread and looking carefully at the advice you are getting and take it to heart. Most of us have made many the mistakes you seem to be making and are just trying to save you some pain. If you do insist on doing it your way, however, please do come back to this thread and document what went wrong so that other folks don't suffer the same fate.

I really do wish you luck with your builds, but if you follow the advice in this thread, you won't need as much of it 

Mark


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## sntmods (Jan 7, 2016)

Yep, again. Way too much assumed. I won't be posting again. Thank you for the time.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sigh. That's your prerogative, certainly. I wish you all the best, but I sure hope you continue to research, whether it's on this forum or a different one. 

Thank you to all of the folks in this thread trying help out. Maybe the valuable information you posted will help someone else.

Mark


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