# Should Hobbyist Have The Right To Crossbreed Poison Darts?



## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I am asking because this seems like a very hot topic, as most people have done it or thinking of doing it.


( PS.... In now way am i asking beause i plan on mixing anything )


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

I would say that there are 2 answers. I think it is ok if the species is not endangered. If the species is endangered, you need to keep the blood line clean and making hybrids would just be not good.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I agree with you there 100%...At the same time i think that people should do what ever they want in their private collection unless ofcourse its endangered and then that changes things. 

My friend in Spain has a collection of only Pumilio's. He only keep those and none other. The cool thing about his tank is that its 230 gallon, and he keeps all different morphs of Pums in there, and says he cross breeds them all the time. They are all still Pums so i guess its not that bad. WHat is your opinion?????


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Hmmmm...this is a topic that hasn't been discussed in a while on the board... :wink: 

There is a difference between what you could do and what you should do. I don't find the rationale for hybridizing and keeping the frogs in a private collection to be the least bit compelling. Over time, those frogs will find their way into circulation, either by accident or otherwise. Even experts make mistakes and those mistakes can be difficult if not impossible to repair.

Given the current diversity of PDFs, I have to say I don't understand the rationale for hybridization. What is the point? To prove that you can? As for only hybridizing non endangered species, they are all endangered..just to differing degrees. Their natural habitat is disappearing at an accelerated pace.

Why stop at hybridization? Let's go whole hog and start splicing the green fluorescent protein and its wavelength shifted mutants into PDF genomes. Just think...glow in the dark frogs...way cool 8) The greens will never be greener, the reds never more vibrant.

Just my 0.02

Bill


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

They may be all pumilio, but they are probably diff. locales. In my opinion that is just as bad as breeding azureus and leucs together, or any other two species.

As for most people doing I only know of a few people, and it was an accident each time. They have kept all the offspring. I don't care what you do in your personal collection, but the chance that some of the froglets produced would make it into circulation is high. Most beginners do not have the heart to throw away eggs, which should occur in a mixed tank, and thoose eggs that soon hatch into tads then morph quickly begin eating large amounts of food, a reason to get rid of them, as that is an extra 50 frogs you have to feed. I do not know one frogger with any common sense who would consider hybridizing on purpose. There is no place in our hobby for mutts.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

That is very true, i never thought about how many Frogs my friend has, and have never asked him what he does with them if he has too many. That is a very good point and i do agree with you that it is a waste of time do crossbreed and it should not be done. 

Yes! his Pumilios are from different Locales.....I will have to ask him how many he actully has and what he does with them. 

I personally have Pumilio's and Imitators and i would never even put them in the same tank. The only time they spend together is when i clean then tanks once a year.....( keep them in a shoebox for 2 hours ), i doubt they will breed in that time :lol: . 

I have a leucomela with my Pums, but they ofcourse can not Crossbreed( or its near impossible) and i think in those cases mixing poison frogs is ok. Ofcourse as long as you have enough room...............................

I love my frogs and i dont see why anyone would ever want to change what they have. I think that if you want another color just Get more tanks and different breeds 8) . Thanks for your comments guys, and remember this is a discussion and not a target zone, just in case someone does write that they crossbreed them.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

> The only time they spend together is when i clean then tanks once a year.....( keep them in a shoebox for 2 hours ), i doubt they will breed in that time


I don't understand, after reading your other posts, it didn't sound like you have been keeping darts for very long. How many years have you been in the hobby? What you describe is a bad idea, not for hybridizing's sake, but for cleanliness. I don't know if you test or treat your frogs for parasites, but putting them in the same container even for 2 hours risks them exposing each other to any accumulated parasites, especially if the pums are FR.
Back to your original question, you can legally do whatever you want with your frogs, but don't expect any kind of support from the dart community (at least in the US) if you hybridize.


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## Guest (May 31, 2005)

> I have a leucomela with my Pums, but they ofcourse can not Crossbreed


Is this true?


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## fleenor1 (Feb 18, 2005)

I am curious if you do crossbreed species wouldn't it create a sterile frog.
A mule so to say.....


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

fleenor1 said:


> I am curious if you do crossbreed species wouldn't it create a sterile frog.
> A mule so to say.....


Many PDFs are close enough genetically to produce fertile offspring. Mules are sterile because horses have 32 chromosome pairs and donkeys have 31 pairs. The mismatch is not sufficent to prevent the production of the mule.

Bill


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Hybrids are just a bad idea. One of the great things about this hobby is that crossbreeding is generally unacceptable. I disagree and think that most people are against and very few have done it intentionally. 

Froglet, I have to agree with both points in Dane's comment. Two weeks ago you posted that you did not have any pumilio, now you are saying you do and have had them for over a year??? I too am confused, but anyway it is a really bad idea to put frogs from different enclosures together even for a short period of time because of potential parasites, or even fighting between animals. Just get another shoebox for when you are cleaning enclosures. 

Ed


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

To answer all your questions. Here it is. 

I have 3 Pums.....But not Blue Jeans. The Blue jeans are the ones i want but i only have 3 Reds. When i posted i think i was asking about Blue's if im not mistaken.

I do mix my darts once a year to treat them.....All in one shoe box, and dont worry about parasites, i deworm them every few months and also use sprays for the skin to kill bacteria. ( and these are personal and im not really afraid of them catching anything, i am very carefull with my babies).

For those of you who want to know of think i dont know anything about frogs, well ill tell you. I know little about Dendrobates, but i am very knowlegable on Epipedobates. I bred and kept Tricolors for over 4 years...gave them up when i went back to shool and now ive had Pums for alsmot 1 year i think and Imitators that are about 4 months. There are alot of things i still need to learn about Dendros but believe me im no Newbie at the hobby, just newbie with certain breeds. I love my frogs and will never cross breed them or try to change what is nature. I do want to open a bussiness one day and focus on reptiles and amphibians..MOSTLY FROGS... I ask alot of questions and i post alot because i want to hear peoples opinions and learn from them. 

That is just me. A guy who loves frogs and is trying my best to keep them and learn from my mistakes. Any more questions feel free to ask.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2005)

This discussion will always be talked about and we will always have different opinions on how to do what. No i dont think they should be mixed but i also agree that all of us still have alot to learn. I do agree with froglet and like all of us, we dont know it all. I dont care how long you have been in the hobby, we can all still learn new things every day.


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## rattler_mt (Apr 15, 2005)

i didnt vote as i couldnt figure out which of the answers fit my views.

i posted a question about hybrids a few weeks ago and after the whole thread i realized i had asked the wrong question entirly in my first post. granted i have yet to own a PDF(tanks are still being constructed, getting married put things on hold) but i do see why the hobby in general is against hybrids and i too after much thought believe in general hybrids are more or less bad for the hobby. my problem is how the hobbiests as a whole are treating those that produce hybrids(either on purpose or accident). i dont think those who are producing them should be shunned. rather even if you dont approve of what they do you shouldnt "tear them down" verbally. what you are doing is pushing what some of these ppl are doing to the "back room" so to speak. if you know who is producing hybrids it should be much easier to keep track of them and not have as many pure bloodlines getting tainted by look alike hybrids. 

i see no problem with telling a newbie why it is a good idea not to produce hybrids but some of the tongue lashings i have seen are a bit rediculous and counter productive in my mind.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2005)

> what you are doing is pushing what some of these ppl are doing to the "back room" so to speak.


I would hope to push them out of the hobby all together. 8)


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## rattler_mt (Apr 15, 2005)

stitch said:


> I would hope to push them out of the hobby all together. 8)


nice thought but will never happen. i would rather know who is doig it rather than not knowing. it would make things easier as near as i can figure


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

One thing i dont understand is why everyone is fighting. This is suppossed to be a discussion and i guess i started a rather punishing one. I think that the feelings of alot of peole are agaisnt hybrids, but hey i do agree that there is no reason to tongue lash or bash someone else. 

People who have poison frogs do not have them just because. Just the feeding alone of these guys is a task which not many people will indur. We all set up nice tanks, breed dam insects in our homes and go to the lenghts of the end of the world for our frogs. For those of you who want to be angry go ahead, but nothing gets accomplished by badmouthing someone else.....and for those of you who call other newbies, well just think that there is always someone who knows more then you. We learn from each other, and we do not know everything even if some of you think you do. If you do not have the 170+ species of Poison Darts, and are able to speak *** FROG*** then you like myself know nothing. 

Act like adults and stop acting like angry kids, this is not kindergarden. It is a place where we learn and discuss, not ATTACK.


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## OneTwentySix (Nov 11, 2004)

Part of the reason people are so hostile against hybridization is that hybrids are a direct threat against the hobby. Hybrids are sometimes undetectable, and are easily mixed in with purebred animals. Dart frogs have long lives; a frog can live over fifteen years, depending on the species, and could have hundreds or thousands of offspring in that time. Most of the people making hybrids are not the serious lifetime keeper; after five years, many of these people may be quitting the hobby. You may be able to keep track of the animal for a couple years but eventually it may end up switching hands several times. It's inevitable that some of these will breed, and some of these offspring will be distributed as purebred animals, either unknowingly, or by someone that just wants to make a quick buck rather than throw away eggs or raise the offspring themselves. 

Poison dart frogs come in such a great variety that there's nothing additional that can be supplied by hybrizing. Given the risks, it's just plain selfish to create these hybrids, as they're a drain on the entire community. Some bloodlines/morphs/species are only estabilished weakly in the hobby; hybrids could completely ruin these lines and force people to only purchase/trade frogs from known breeders. This would reduce the gene pool, eliminate some of these lines, and cause damage to people that either make a living off of the hobby, or at least pay some of their bills from it (breeders, distrubutors, insect suppliers, plant sellers, etc.) Importing fresh, purebred frogs is not an option in many cases, as some frogs such as azureus will probably never be legally exported again. 

Hybridizing may seem like a way to add variety to your collection, as you suddenly have a differently colored frog, but in the end, it destroys the natural variety and leads to a time where only hybrids exist. 


People can be more civil, but any hybrid, even if isolated and kept by the breeder, is a potential threat and measures should be taken to discourage the ignorant.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Peter i could not agree with you more. If you think about it its like killing of a species, which in fact is what alot of people are doing. I apreciate your comments and i am 100% agreeying with that you sayd. 

I also apreciate that you gave your comment without attack. I have been in this forum for not too long, but i have seen many attacks on people just because they ask a question. 

Personally i do not mix anything but one Dendrobates Leucomela and 3 Pumilio's. I am thinking about taking him out and putting him in another tank but i dont have the room and i really really doubt that Leucomela and Pumilio's will cross breed. Not impossible but not likely. And if by any chance they ever do breed i will make sure to keep the babies........

Like i sayd before most of us who keep frogs do it with passion. Its very hard to keep such a small animal without passion. There are a few who destroy the hobby, but most do it for the love and respect of the species. Why we pick the species that we pick, noone will know. My favorites are Pumilio's and Imitators. 

Well Lets talk nice from now one people


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## AURATUS CZECH.REP. (Dec 8, 2010)

froglet said:


> I am asking because this seems like a very hot topic, as most people have done it or thinking of doing it.
> 
> 
> ( PS.... In now way am i asking beause i plan on mixing anything )


first thing is preservation biotops where frogs living save rainforest


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Just so others know before you go on a rant. This is a 10 year old thread.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Good observation.

Just locked it up.



phender said:


> Just so others know before you go on a rant. This is a 10 year old thread.


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