# Unusual pumilio tads.



## reggorf (Oct 24, 2006)

Click on this picture to get a better idea of what I am talking about.

We got a clutch of 6 eggs from our bastis in early August. After being in the water for about a month, we noticed the broms rotting and not holding water. So, we took the brom out and carefully peeled it apart looking for tads. We found three. One was very close to morphing so we took it out and put it into a small walk out container. It died within days(I assume it was due to the stress of the move). The other two we put into film cups and put them back into the viv to see if mom and dad would continue caring for them. We never saw any eggs being put into the film cups but we did see the parents on and around the film cups. After a couple weeks, we noticed the tads trying to morph. They got their orange color and back legs. They have been in the water for about 4 months now and no change. They are still orange, still only have back legs, and their bodies are somewhat elongated. The parents have not laid any eggs since these tads have been deposited. So, today we made the decision that these tads are not going to morph and we took them out. Hopefully, the parents will start laying again now that the tads are not in there anymore. 

Has this happened to anyone before? Do you think we should have left them in or are we right in assuming they are not going to morph?


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

I'm by no means a tadpole expert, nor have I experience raising them, but I find it hard to believe that a living tadpole wont morph. Individuals may take longer than others, but I think it's impossible to have a tadpole not morph. Sure, some pass away before they do morph, but I havent seen any 3 year old pumilio tadpoles =D

I would have kept them in with the parents, but if you though they'd start breeding again once you pulled them, then it was probably a good move.


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## stevemc (Aug 13, 2007)

You need to do frequent water changes. The tads make a hormone that for some reason makes them not grow or at least grow very slowly. Good food will help too. I change the water about once a week.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

stevemc said:


> You need to do frequent water changes. The tads make a hormone that for some reason makes them not grow or at least grow very slowly. Good food will help too. I change the water about once a week.


this is the first time i am hearing this, although i am a firm believer in water changes for tads, there are many experience froggers, who are leaders in dart experience who never change the water and just top off as water evaporates. 

there have also been several documented cases where tads have taken a really long time to morph or not morph at all, one of whihc i remember was a tad that was going on 2 years and had not morphed.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

stevemc said:


> You need to do frequent water changes. The tads make a hormone that for some reason makes them not grow or at least grow very slowly. Good food will help too. I change the water about once a week.





Julio said:


> this is the first time i am hearing this, although i am a firm believer in water changes for tads, there are many experience froggers, who are leaders in dart experience who never change the water and just top off as water evaporates.


I don't know if there has been a published paper regarding the release of a chemical substance by the tads of certain species - but there certainly is anecdotal evidence. I believe that Matt M has done some rough tests using auratus. I have done some "experiments" with azureus - and when in a limited volume of water - there certainly is a difference in the morph times and morph sizes of two tads raised in the same container as opposed to those raised individually. I would imagine in certain species it is a sort of a positive-feedback loop - one tad begins to release a substance inhibiting the growth of other tads. This allows the tad to grow faster than the others, continuing to release the substance, further delaying the growth of other tads. But - this needs to be tested more carefully to determine if it is really true. A professor at St. Joe's in Philly is researching tad density and the effects on growth/metamorphosis.



Julio said:


> there have also been several documented cases where tads have taken a really long time to morph or not morph at all, one of whihc i remember was a tad that was going on 2 years and had not morphed.


Yeah - I have had a handful of these tads. But - they didn't progress to metamorph - they just stayed as (really big) tads.

Stacey - the elongated look to the tadpoles reminds me of froglets that I had morph with severe SLS (either no front limbs at all, or very rudimentary limbs). If the parents did not continue to feed the tads after they were moved - then developmental problems are not surprising.


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## reggorf (Oct 24, 2006)

Not sure if I said this before, but the tads were in individual film cups. I only put them into the same container when I took them out of the viv yesterday. I was pretty sure if they did morph out, they would have SLS. Thanks.


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## dralucas (Feb 5, 2007)

I know some kind salamendre (axolotl i think) stay at larva morph for all their lifes because of the water they live in. It might be the same things that hapen to ur tads. Maybe the rotting brom created some kind of acid or watever in the water that affected ur tads developement. 

If ur curious enough i would let them in the tank and change the water to see what kind of basti it will form. Maybe a giant morph lol.

Sorry if my english is not all right.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> I find it hard to believe that a living tadpole wont morph.


I know both Bill Heath and Quality Captives have had tads that never morphed. Bill posted a thread about his tad when it pass; I don't have the slightest clue where it is though.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

I have had some (limited) success hand-rearing pumilio tads and in my experience, the development time is very long (i.e. 6-9 months). 

Just my 2 cents...


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

As already stated there have been more than a few cases of tadpoles that never morph. Some as long as 6 months. I have had a couple but not as long as 6 months.


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## GSXR_MURRHEE (Sep 16, 2006)

I had a similar experience to yours a little while back with some mancreek tads. One had his back legs and bumps for the front when I pulled him out, the others still didn't have the back ones. About 3 months after I had pulled them, they still hadn't morphed anymore than they already were when I pulled them out. I ended up culling them, for a few different reasons. Sometimes it's easier to count them as a loss, and hope everything goes right with the next ones.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

I have a tadpole ( ancon hill ) that has been a tad since the end of may. It seems very healthy but shows no signs of back legs or front legs. It is though the largest tadpole I have seen come from my ancon hills ( which I do not even have any more) The tad is about 1 1/2 inches long. So I am thinking if it ever does morph it will be one huge froglet.


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## reggorf (Oct 24, 2006)

So, just a little update. The smaller of the two tads died. But the larger one is still alive and seems to be growing a little. I feed it every two days. I have put tad bites in but it seems to be ignoring them. I have been feeding frozen brine shrimp. No way to know if it is eating them. There are tons of drowned fruit flies in there from its film cup in the viv. So it has lived for 3 weeks on its own without eggs from mom. How long do you suppose it will live?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Elongated tads can be seen due to malnourishment. I bet the parents werent feeding them enough, or possibly they had a mouth fungus that impairs their ability to eat [less likely than the former, you would see uneated eggs].

You can feed them eggs from other pdf's, but its a long shot to get any through at this point. 

Concentrate your efforts on increasing the parent nutritional status [rotating supplements, feeding more larvae, populating the tank with springs, ect]

S


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

What Shawn said. They stopped feeding and that is what happens. I had a man creek tad that did that after I kept picking up the film can to see how it was doing. Finally she had enough and never came back to feed it again. They elongate and skinny up like that.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Stacey 

U are trying to feed a basti tad tadpole bites and as we all know those are obligatory egg feeders. If the mom is not laying eggs for them i would do the hummane thing and just euthonize it. # 1 he can survive 3-4 weeks without food but will basically starve himself and #2 as Oz stated that tadpoles has a huge case of sls and i agree neither of the limbs will come out. Do the humane thing there is no chance for him to make it. 

Gl with your next batch


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## reggorf (Oct 24, 2006)

froglet said:


> Stacey
> 
> U are trying to feed a basti tad tadpole bites and as we all know those are obligatory egg feeders. If the mom is not laying eggs for them i would do the hummane thing and just euthonize it. # 1 he can survive 3-4 weeks without food but will basically starve himself and #2 as Oz stated that tadpoles has a huge case of sls and i agree neither of the limbs will come out. Do the humane thing there is no chance for him to make it.
> 
> Gl with your next batch


I know that are obligatory egg feeders. It was only a test to see what it would do. It is obviously eating something since it is growing a little. I am going to try to give it an egg if any of the other frogs lay soon. I was just experimenting a few things. People do that all the time.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Ohhh dont get me wrong i wasnt knocking you for experimenting just wanted to make sure you know they were oblig's ......... But like Oz said it has a really bad case of sls so dont think its worth it .... 

gl


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