# Oddball Cobalts: Hybrids or Rare Morph



## Crikkifrogger (Sep 19, 2009)

Hey Froggers,

So I had put these up for sale until there was a bit of skepticism about these frogs. Here are the details:
These frogs are offspring from a pair of D. tinctorius (surinam cobalt) from Patrick Nabors. I produced between 30-40 offspring from this pair, but these three had a very distinct color morph. The frogs have the cobalt shape, they are quickly attaining the size, but the colors are very strange. Take a look and maybe the experience froggers can help me get to the bottom of this. I know some think these look like a cross between an auratus and a cobalt, so possibly one of the parents were carrying the trait (or both). 

Thanks,

Crikki


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

That would be my guess, some where down the line they got some hybrid blood mixed in and things just came together in such a way those genes got expressed. I saw a frog that looked almost exactly the same here in Ok at a local pet store a few years back. I won't name names, but I've met the guy who sold them the frogs and by all accounts he is a reputable guy plus he probably got his frogs from Patrick(just a guess)...who by all accounts is also a reputable guy. 

I seriously doubt Patrick would mix even by mistake, so my guess is the most likely thing that happened was some of the founder stock frogs had some auratus blood in them before coming to the USA, or got it in them shortly after arriving here, then they got unknowingly introduced into the hobby...but it expresses itself so rarely that few people who would probably have a clue whats going on would have ever seen it actually happen. Just a theory 

I have a pic of that frog somewhere, but I think its on an old hard drive. I haven't been able to dig it up and the link to it and my old gallery here is dead from when they did some changes here years ago, but it was almost exactly like your frog.

I personally wouldn't be comfortable selling it to anyone who didn't absolutely promise to not breed it, sell it, or give it to anyone else and could be trusted to keep that promise. If I had the money I'd make that promise (but you have little reason to trust me) since I wouldn't mind having it as a strictly display frog...but I'm broke  

I'd see it put down before I saw it go to some random person though. Hell if it was mine I'd probably even leave instructions to one of my friends/family to put it down in the event something happened to me. Which sucks because that is really the only option to make sure it doesn't do further damage to the gene pools of our captive stock, and one reason why many of us here are against hybrids.

So that would be my advice to you, find someone you can absolutely trust to buy or just take the animal or just keep it yourself strictly for display and maybe even go so far as to leave instructions for someone to put it down if something happened to you.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

the pattern on the legs look obviously auratus. The pattern on the back looks _almost_ cobalt, but definitely different colors and like no cobalt I've ever seen. The body looks primarily cobalt shape, but I sense a hint of auratus (unless they are just super fatties...). I can't see two pure cobalts putting out this kind of frog. Obviously there's room for variation within a morph (I remember seeing a thread about a veradero that was almost entirely black, but at the same time it was obviously a veradero), but this would be a pretty obscure variation.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I forgot to mention the suspected hybrid I saw here in OK a couple years ago was housed with cobalts and auratus at the pet store, they were also from the same guy...Which I supposed could be viewed as circumstantial evidence that it was a hybrid. I don't know if that guy actually bred that frog or he got it from someone else though as it was basically an adult while the others were froglets. So basically I have no idea how that frog came into being and I'm not naming names and not accusing him...I just thought the info was relative to the conversation about these frogs. Hopefully now my @$$ is sufficiently covered, as I'm not drawing any conclusions or looking to step on anyones toes


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## Crikkifrogger (Sep 19, 2009)

Thanks Dave. That info is helpful. I will absolutely make sure these frogs will not be given to anybody who I do not trust!


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Years ago Strictly Retptiles got WC Cobalt exports that were green and almost all of Pat's founding stock were WC adults. I would suggest there is almost zero chance these are hybrids, much more likely they are an abberation or perhaps even related to the green imports of years ago.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

markpulawski said:


> Years ago Strictly Retptiles got WC Cobalt exports that were green and almost all of Pat's founding stock were WC adults. I would suggest there is almost zero chance these are hybrids, much more likely they are an abberation or perhaps even related to the green imports of years ago.


Thats pretty interesting...any pics of these old imports floating around? Would be interesting to compare them. I never heard of green cobalts but I haven't been around as long as some nor nearly as plugged into all the goings on.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

No digital back then but i saw some and they were green where the yellow is on most but they were a different green than these. I am sure there are a few around that saw them, they were mid 90's when Strictly did most of the dart frog importing. I will contact Pat and get his perspective, or perhaps see if he can comment directly.


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## Crikkifrogger (Sep 19, 2009)

I've heard something along those lines too Mark. But...do you know if the coloration on the legs of these guys are consistent with the WC specimens?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

What has Patrick said about them?

S


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## Crikkifrogger (Sep 19, 2009)

I will drop him a line and send pics. As soon as I hear, I will post his response.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

markpulawski said:


> I would suggest there is almost zero chance these are hybrids, much more likely they are an abberation or perhaps even related to the green imports of years ago.


Assuming that the parents appear to be cobalts in every way, and that all siblings showed no signs of the patten...that would be my guess as well. 

I'm no professor of genetics, but I used to deal with snake morphs pretty exclusively so try this on for size. For this pair to drop so many standard looking cobalts, then three that look this bizarre, but similar to each other suggests that whatever is different is carried on very few alleles (or just one). Otherwise it's likely you would have seen this pattern, at least partially, earlier. 

That means mutation or hybrid. If we go with hybrid then it would have had to have been many generations past, because the traits are undetectable (assuming) in the parents/sibling. In those cases, in my experience, it just doesn't play out this dramatically. In those cases there are usually subtleties that catch the experienced eye, but nothing like a complete color change. 

This screams mutation/morph to me, and not necessarily one that hasn't been occurring in the jungles. The numbers, and the appearances suggest to me it's much more likely a case of recessive genes lining up. As was mentioned, the legs do look auratus, but that has a lot to do with coloring. I think that if you took a good picture of one of these frogs and then color corrected it with photoshop to match a nominate cobalt, it wouldnt look that unusual.

Of course, you can't rule out hybridization entirely, but I think the odds are severely against it.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Boondoggle said:


> I think that if you took a good picture of one of these frogs and then color corrected it with photoshop to match a nominate cobalt, it wouldnt look that unusual.



That's how I feel about them also.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

JoshK said:


> That's how I feel about them also.


It's the legs that get me I can see them popping a back pattern/coloration like that but add in that the legs are completely different from most cobalts and I have a harder time getting hybrid out of my head. Green and black reticulation vs blue with little black spots?


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## Mikembo (Jan 26, 2009)

By any chance can you get a pic of the ventral side of these guys!? Looking at the legs, I'm really curious how the stomach pattern looks.........

-Mike-


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Here is a hybrid picture from Tracy Hicks site: 










This is not a direct auratus/cobalt tinc, that I am aware of I believe Leuc/Tinc. The pattern is what led me to hybrid and color mutation explanation. I have never heard or seen tadpole diet reflecting a dramatic change.


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## ErickG (Nov 28, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> It's the legs that get me I can see them popping a back pattern/coloration like that but add in that the legs are completely different from most cobalts and I have a harder time getting hybrid out of my head. Green and black reticulation vs blue with little black spots?


This I have to agree with. I cannot seem to get around the pattern on the legs. Craig, it would also make more sense if you were to provide pictures of the siblings to show that this pattern is not only specific to these in question.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Here is a link to a tinc/auratus cross:

http://terrariebutikken.com/grafik/hybrid3.jpg

Hybrids are variable. I know Jewels of the Rain Forest has some pictures of hybrids.


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## Jayson745 (Dec 13, 2006)

If there's a genetic mutation at play that messed with the colors, I don't find it inconceivable that it played with the placement of the colors at the same time. Genetic abnormalities can do all kinds of interesting things.

Like mentioned, if there was a hybrid up the parentage line somewhere its seems like you would have seen hints of it in other offspring sooner, instead of just bang, here I am.

So unless you reused a tank that used to hold a different species and you missed a really shy reclusive critter, I vote for genetic mutation.


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## Crikkifrogger (Sep 19, 2009)

Thanks for all of the feedback! I can provide pics of the ventral side if needed, as that is the most stunning part (bright blue patterning).

I got a response from Patrick and here is it, 
"Craig, good to hear from you! Anyway, very unusual looking frogs.
Let me know what you want for them, I'd be interested in discussing buying
them. Not sure why I'd want them...but they are definitely different. All
three look pretty much the same? Anyway, I guess I don't see that there is
much I can provide that will help you. I've never seen a frog that looks
like this, not in any offspring from my cobalts, nor any other dart frogs.
AS I see it, its not the origin of the pair that is at issue, rather its
what was in the tank when these frogs were produced, and only you can say
whether or not there was a "rogue" frog in the tank. I for one believe you,
I've seen oddities like this before. Again though, you would be the only
one that could say for sure what the situation was."

To be 100% honest, the two cobalts were the only frogs that were in this tank for the extent that i've had them. I keep all species/morphs separate at all costs to prevent such hybridization problems. I am beginning to think there was some sort of mutation, as well. 

Interesting.....


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

There isn't an auratus gene or a tinctorius gene so if there was some hybridization in there you would see some level of blending in each froglet. It isn't probable that you all of a sudden end up with froglets out of the blue that were so drastically different. Can you post up pics of the parents and other babies?


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Aurotaenia said:


> There isn't an auratus gene or a tinctorius gene so if there was some hybridization in there you would see some level of blending in each froglet. It isn't probable that you all of a sudden end up with froglets out of the blue that were so drastically different. Can you post up pics of the parents and other babies?


I agree, there is no single gene that makes one frog and auratus and another a tinc and another a leuc. So I can't see this being some sort of "recessive gene" pairing here that caused this. If the parents and the siblings showed no hint of hybrids, then I believe that these are from normal cobalts because the hybrids would show a mixture of traits from both species, right? I've never produced hybrids but from all the pics I've seen I have yet to come across something that is a hybrid of two species or even two morphs that look like only one parent, they all look like mixture of the two parents. I don't know a whole lot on the subject, but if I had to guess I would say it is some random genetic mutation that changed the colors and leg pattern. What I still don't understand is, what made all three from that batch look like this? Since fertilization is external I would think this random mutation is possible in a single offspring, but all three? It must have been something that occurred in the female's ovaries before the eggs were laid that made all three eggs have the same genetic mutation? This is what still confuses me. Any ideas?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Any reason why we are tossing out a reassortment of genes expressing the pattern?

Why are we assuming that the wild parental populations did not include a small percent of frogs with similar patterns? If the pattern is based on a reassortment, it would only appear in a tiny portion of the population... 

Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm with you on this one, Ed. Seems like a highly probable scenario.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Ed said:


> Any reason why we are tossing out a reassortment of genes expressing the pattern?


Can you explain how that would work? I tried looking into the term "reassortment of genes" but got lost in a lot of info about viruses that I couldn't make application of in this scenario.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Check out for example Chromosomal crossover - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Check out for example Chromosomal crossover - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Ed


Is that akin to what I said regarding old genes and/or a specific combo of genes being expressed in just a few frogs over a large period of time? I'm just trying to figure out if I understood the wiki correctly and my "theory" was sound and likely?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Is that akin to what I said regarding old genes and/or a specific combo of genes being expressed in just a few frogs over a large period of time? I'm just trying to figure out if I understood the wiki correctly and my "theory" was sound and likely?


Hi Dave,

I kind of thought I supporting that idea...  

It is similar but it ends up being a pattern that is genetically controlled but only rarely expressed as the genes have to cross over and align properly. If this is the reason, it would explain why the genes are not acting like a simple recessive/dominent pattern. 

As a further item, these sorts of patterns tend to be controlled by multiple genes and not just one gene.. so a change in which genes get turned on or off can cause a pattern to change.. 

Ed


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## fishieness (Jun 26, 2009)

Since the divergence happened so quickly, you would assume it has to do with something similar to an inhibitor/enhancer/etc if recombination or anything of the like were at work. But the likelihood of it happening to three different frogs of the same clutch where no others have had the "mutation" seems really, really unlikely to me...
I'll be the first to admit I have no experience with breeding frogs (yet ), so I could be off, but I do know a tiny bit about genetics/evolution. So I could be off.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I kind of thought I supporting that idea...
> 
> ...


Good, I feel validated now  Maybe some environmental factor is influencing the expression. And thats what caused several to pop up all of a sudden


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## Crikkifrogger (Sep 19, 2009)

Sorry, I have not followed up with this, but I saw these frogs back up for sale and thought i'd respond. The thing I changed which may have influenced the outcome is the frog is I added a multivitamin to the parents diet. This may have caused a change in gene expression for a just a few...but still not sure that this explains it.


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## laylow (Apr 6, 2009)

I for one would surely enjoy seeing any other pictures you may have from these 3 frogs. From an educational point of view (my education) I find these to be very interesting!

Shaw


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

You said you saw them back up for sale? i thought you were the one selling them? I would not reccomend it, but it would be interesting to see if the offspring from a pair of these would turn out with traditional cobalt colors. Once again i do not reccomend it considering the risk, but it would be interesting in determining what happened.


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## Gumby (May 27, 2010)

Oddball Cobalt for Sale

That is what he is talking about Erick.

-Chris


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## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

Look at this single frog that came from a long time producing pair of banded luecs with no other offspring like it. I think it's highly possible to have gotten these frogs from two cobalts who have never produced anything like it. I would keep them as show specimens or breed them back to cobalts with no direct heritage.


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

Crikkifrogger said:


> Sorry, I have not followed up with this, but I saw these frogs back up for sale and thought i'd respond. The thing I changed which may have influenced the outcome is the frog is I added a multivitamin to the parents diet. This may have caused a change in gene expression for a just a few...but still not sure that this explains it.


No.

Need 25 characters.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Ben Wehr said:


> Look at this single frog that came from a long time producing pair of banded luecs with no other offspring like it. I think it's highly possible to have gotten these frogs from two cobalts who have never produced anything like it. I would keep them as show specimens or breed them back to cobalts with no direct heritage.


is it at all possible thats a hybrid? ive never seen a banded leuc with blue feet. and the head looks more like a tinc or a trunc then a leuc.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

I think leucs patterns can play tricks on the eyes. It can make the head shape look different or the frog thinner. I have one leuc that is the same size as the other two but on a quick glance looks very thin. That's because his sides have a lot of black and it is an optical illusion that he is thin. I've seen this in pictures.

I have 3 olemaries I just traded. 2 are normal patterned and the other is more like an alanis. I know for a fact they're from the same parents and the parents are typical olemaries. Just an example of variations in offspring.


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

The amount of allelic variation/mutation between individuals of the same species is surprisingly high. Most of these differences tend to occur in the large sections of the genome that don't code for anything, but not always, which is the source of phenotype differences like those seen here. Variations like this are bound to manifest from time to time considering the many generations of cobalts that have been produced over the years and the high occurrence of inbreeding.


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## forestexotics (Nov 14, 2006)

cool looking frogs


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## Taron (Sep 23, 2009)

More than likely a genetic trait...ie melanistic. Especially if it only pops up every once in a blue moon. Also a possibility of a lack of nutrition or incubating at a different temp can cause colors to be different in adults.


Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Hatmehit (Jul 9, 2012)

I came across this and was curious if anyone ever bred the frogs or found out anything more about them.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I gave them to a frog friend at Frog Day last year.


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## Crikkifrogger (Sep 19, 2009)

Hey Froggers,

Anybody know the status of these frogs? Would like to see what is going on with them, any breeding, etc?


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