# How do experienced keepers save money on enclosures and what tricks have you learned along the way?



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

I don't know about anyone else but all together now I have spent about $1500 (or more) on my two first dart frogs, their enclosure, their food, etc. I am doubtful the pros and experienced keepers don't have any tricks and tips for saving money so that they can keep multiple frogs and still pay the mortgage! LOL

What have you learned along the way? I want to learn from the people that have been in the hobby a lot longer than I have, you guys have a wealth of information.

I also think it's a great way to help newbies out (newbie here asking for help! hahaha)


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

I'm sure you'll get a lot of good advice. My opinion is unpopular but maybe worth stating: I don't try to save money. LOL

My personal philosophy is to get the best I can, and if that means keeping fewer frogs (it certainly does) that's perfectly fine.

Before anyone thinks I'm being elitist, I'm not a wealthy guy. It's just a decision I made.

Over the years I've seen a lot of frog rooms with tons of very small, hacked together enclosures on thrown-together racks with dozens of species and that 'quantity over quality' mentality with live animals has always bugged me.

Now that being said, I'm sure a lot of experienced keepers will have some very cool hacks and tricks for you, as this hobby has a strong DIY component and there's nothing wrong with being frugal for the *right* reasons! 😁


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Fahad said:


> I'm sure you'll get a lot of good advice. My opinion is unpopular but maybe worth stating: I don't try to save money. LOL
> 
> My personal philosophy is to get the best I can, and if that means keeping fewer frogs (it certainly does) that's perfectly fine.
> 
> ...


You are totally right, nobody should ever cut corners where it matters. I wondered things like, is there a special place to get cheap plant bundles? Is there money to be saved on substrate somewhere? When does DIY-ing help and when does it hurt?

I can definitely appreciate your opinion. We have to do our best for these tiny creatures whose lives are in our hands.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Im the same way. Whats good is Im not much of a consumer and dont spend money on other stuff, dont like to be online to buy things it makes me nervous. Wifey does that.

I used to get a good discount on my media so stocked up on cork and rocks i knew i might want to use in the future.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Between the rise of houseplants and a surge in the glass box hobby, plants are more expensive than ever. The only places I see deals are when people do large bulk orders (expensive but a lower per unit cost) or buy and trade with other hobbyists, the latter being more accessible and practical for most.

You can get really cheap substrate but it depends on the methods you follow as that will dictate your needs.


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## Lincoln B (Jan 29, 2021)

Fahad said:


> I'm sure you'll get a lot of good advice. My opinion is unpopular but maybe worth stating: I don't try to save money. LOL
> 
> My personal philosophy is to get the best I can, and if that means keeping fewer frogs (it certainly does) that's perfectly fine.
> 
> ...


^this is a minority opinion but is 100% the right way to look at the hobby. You wouldn’t get 30 different breeds of dogs and keep them in kennels/small rooms all the time. You get 1 or 2 and give them the house.
I think you should get a few different types of frogs and give those ones the best captive lives possible.


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## Lincoln B (Jan 29, 2021)

Join a local plant selling group on Facebook. The rare/variegated plants are still expensive in those groups but you can get common plants for cheap and sometimes free


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Lincoln B said:


> ^this is a minority opinion but is 100% the right way to look at the hobby. You wouldn’t get 30 different breeds of dogs and keep them in kennels/small rooms all the time. You get 1 or 2 and give them the house.
> I think you should get a few different types of frogs and give those ones the best captive lives possible.


I would never keep an animal I couldn't provide the best home and veterinary care to, I was more curious about whether there were ways to get cheap plants or cork bark, stuff like that. I went through Josh's frogs mostly when I set up my vivarium for enclosure supplies and I just wondered how people might save money by going to smaller businesses and vendors and how to find those small businesses and vendors. I should have been more clear, I'm sorry.


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Lincoln B said:


> Join a local plant selling group on Facebook. The rare/variegated plants are still expensive in those groups but you can get common plants for cheap and sometimes free


I had no idea! That's a great idea.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

You can divide plants as they grow. Sometimes you find a deal on bulk cork at shows.... Cheap LED spot lights work pretty well for lighting. You can sometimes trade or sell tings. But keeping dart frogs can get kinda pricy. 

I think it was pretty clear that you were just asking about how to make things lot affordable not how to cut corners.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Places where I save money compared to many people:

Lights. I use quite inexpensive nicrew aquarium lights. Lights for my 36,18x24" tanks cost about $60 USD per tank. 
Plexiglass lids: I use plexiglass on top of the screen lids on my terrariums, costs about half as much as buying glass does (at least to get glass cut to size)
Plants: I have setup a plant only tank that I use to propagate plants, so I only need to buy one of most species and can use it across multiple tanks after I let it grow awhile in my plant growing tank.
Buy in bulk. When you're buying misting system components then you should buy enough for several tanks to save on shipping (same goes with most things, but in bulk and save on shipping)
Used terrariums: I've gotten some great used finds on terrariums, including one that was in great shape for 25% of the cost of a new tank. Disinfect them well and there as good as new. 

Aside from that I don't worry about saving money. I want to get the right stuff for my frogs, regardless of cost.


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

Big saver for me was learning that you don’t have to use reptile/terrarium specific lights and LED shop lights work just fine. I currently have 4 tanks and lit all of them for 70 bucks. Also I collect my own leaf litter. Other than that I thinks it’s best to just get things right the first time. Go with an exo terra over an aquarium, don’t try to make your own abg mix, etc. You can save money on wood by searching the internet for cheaper prices. Places like pet mountain will ship Malaysian driftwood for free if you spend 50 bucks. You can get good prices on ghostwood from companies made to sell wedding decorations, and buy cork in bulk. Plants become cheaper when you have more tanks because you have a stock to take cuttings from, sometimes you might not need to buy any for a new tank. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Nepenthesx said:


> [...]I should have been more clear, I'm sorry.


You were clear enough, no worries. My comment was related to your post but not directed squarely at you. Or I wouldn't have used a smiley face!

(It's the year 2021 and the only way to convey tone on the internet is with cartoon smiley faces. And we were promised jetpacks. )


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## Shazace (Jul 19, 2020)

I plan it all out ahead of time. I wait for sales because there's always an upcoming sale. Black friday is a good one for mistkings, substrate, leaf litter, dry goods, tanks, etc. I try not to buy any plants at that time due to the crazy shipping delays during the holidays but usually a few vendors will run sales before black friday. Exo terras can be found on sale pretty often at petsmart/petco plus there's coupons. I have gotten two 36x18x18s for less than $130.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Definitely second hand terrariums, especially already "decorated". I'm guessing about half of my plant collection comes from tanks that I bought second hand, which has saved me tooooooooons of money. Also wood, I have a ton of wood, but have almost never bought any.


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

This is great info! Thank you all so very much!


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## Vargoje3 (Oct 5, 2020)

I'm new to keeping darts (got my first group last march) but the biggest thing I have used to save money is visiting local reptile shows. You can generally find a few of them within driving distance. You can find good prices on cork, ghostwood and most other things you need for the hobby. I live in a rural area and have about 3 different shows near me that I go to now every other month. At the last show I attended there was a dart frog breeder who was selling marcgravia, verrusocosum and other rare plants at way below internet pricing. Picked up several marcgravias, a mini verrusocosum and a P. burl marx fantasy for under a hundred bucks. I've also picked up some exo terras at these shows as "show specials" that were discounted.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

On the going to shows: if it's a multi-day show, going on the last day (dry goods buying only) can get you big discounts as vendors don't want to cart terrariums and other bulky things back home with them


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Hardware stores. Landscaping yards. Lamp/electrics departments. Discount lumber warehouse (like a giant hardware target store and they will custom cut stuff for you. I cant sustain sawing L5 positions anymore, so helpful)

There is never any need to buy overpriced dome lamps or florescent hoods with crappy ballasts. Especially.

I know im forgetting a few others ...hey jragg -


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## Patterhorn (Oct 4, 2019)

Make a list of the things you need and or want and buy them at an expo. There's no shipping costs. You can control the temps . I live in Texas there are big swaths of time when shipping is inhuman .Also paying for shipping is no fun.


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## calhoun3186 (Nov 1, 2019)

I've found many of the plants I have from hardware stores. Moss from the yard too, just make sure to bleach dip it. As mentioned earlier, cheap aquarium lights or fluorescent lights. Leaf litter from the yard, I bake at 225 for 30 minutes. Egg crate for a false bottom is also one of the cheaper options and save weight too.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Good topic, Nepenthes!
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread that is probably a common theme among those of us who really got bitten by the bug early on (or have been at it a while) is that I don't go out of pocket on much at all anymore. That's because my frogs started to breed and became the ultimate facilitation of my upward (downward?) spiral into frogdom. Once I started producing froglets and worked to figure out how best to sell and trade them, I rarely have to go out of pocket with anything anymore. It took a while to get there, but now I can trade frogs to the local pet stores and get all the hardware I need. I also trade with other froggers and plant folks for frogs and plants. Outside of direct barter, I can save the money I make in selling frogs and use it to buy anything I can't trade for. I will say that this is not a goal that most people should be shooting for, especially when new to the hobby, but I feel that it is only fair to say that this is the way it has worked for me and I am sure I am not alone. Oh, and once you have plants growing in one tank, you can take cuttings from that tank and use those as a starting point for subsequent builds. That's why most of my tanks have snails/slugs!

Another way that can be looked at as saving money is economies of scale/having stock on hand. When you build your first tank, you have to buy one of everything, including tools and consumables. When you start your second build, you will look around and say "hey, I have some of that left from last time" (be careful trying to preserve half of can or bottle of something when it either doesn't come out anymore or is past its expiration date). So, you might not have to buy it again  Eventually, you will have a good enough idea of the items you need that you can start buying stuff on sale and stockpiling it. Also, as you have more and more tanks, you can buy things in bulk and save money that way. You can also keep an eye out for stuff on Craigslist and at yard sales. You get in a mode where you buy things that you might not need right away but if you can afford the room to store it, you will be able to use it later and you will have saved money. Over time, you get a better idea of what things cost and know when it's a good enough deal to pull the trigger even when you don't have immediate need of it.

So, as others have said, some stuff you just can't save much money on and you can probably plan that as an expense for every build. Other stuff, though, might have some techniques that can save you money over time. My impression, even barring the frog trading/selling stuff above, is that each tank costs a little bit less (at least until you have done a lot of builds and you get things dialed in).

One thing that never seems to be reduced is the number of trips to the hardware store. I am always forgetting something!

Mark


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Honestly most of the more common dart frogs that we keep are much more simple to keep than we make it out to be. You don't "need" a misting system, fancy Jungledawn LEDs, bromeliads, etc. You can just use a shoplight to light two exo terras that are 18," some pothos or philodendron or if you feel fancy get some ficus, some good substrate, and a misting bottle. I kept an adult male tinc in quarantine for a while after an illness in a rubbermaid container and some wet papertowels with made half a plastic pot for hiding until he got better. I've kept mantellas for extended periods of time in rubbermaid bins with just philodendron and some soil in the bottom underneath a shoplight.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Tons of good info here. *TONS.*

We could also sort of invert the question. What are some of the reliable ways to pay "max retail"?

Fail to plan.
Be impulsive.
Be impatient.
Always choose to spend money instead of time or effort.
Always choose to "live a decluttered life".
Buy from the most expensive places or at the most expensive times possible.
Basically I recommend you be systematic and deliberate. Try to know what it is you are trying to accomplish, and then chart out a few scenarios for getting there. 

If you start from a dead stop during a work week, and say "by Sunday night I'm going to have a viv set up with (_name some animals_) in it" - well you can sure do that. And you'll be paying.
Similarly, if you walk into an Expo or a brick-and-mortar not even thinking about buying anything, and you walk out with "everything you need", you'll be paying. The Expo will almost always be cheaper though.
On the other hand, if you know what you want, and you know the range of prices for something (a tank, a light, a mister, a plant or animal - whatever), you can watch and wait until you see something you "need" for a good price. ALWAYS plan to get the animals last. There's nothing at all wrong with having a "frog tank" set up for 4, 6, or even 12 months before you ever get the animals. Ideally, work with a breeder or importer you know and respect, and let them know what you want and when you want it. You can even put down a deposit, or "earnest money", if they are OK with that (some aren't).
Returning to the un-inverted question - I do like Fahad's answer (+/- "it's actually got to not be too concerned with the cost of doing what you want"). But it's also unsatisfying to pay more than you "need" to. My personal ways to avoid paying "max retail":

I have never bought leaf litter. I collect my own, by the garbage bag.
I have never bought wood. I collect my own, not quite by the truckload but I do make a good load when I go cutting.
I have never bought rocks, other than small bags of gravel.
I have mostly used hardware store lights.
I mostly mix my own substrates, from large bags. E.g., get a 20-lb bag of lump hardwood charcoal from Ace, not a pint's worth from PetCo. The out-of-pocket cost of one transaction is similar but there's _a whole lot of pints_ in a 20-lb sack of charcoal.
A hardware store is almost always cheaper than a pet store. A lot of the fundamental "problems" we're solving are pretty universal to organisms, humans included. 
I don't keep very many animals.
I buy (or collect my own) in bulk and store "excess" in plastic tubs. Sometimes for years. Besides organic and mineral decor, this includes infrastructure items like mist heads, tubing & connections. Saves on shipping, plus I can whip out some mods or a whole new viv any time I like. I have half of a 10x12 shed filled just with my stored leaves, branches, substrate components, plumbing materials, etc. as well as a few hulls - clean empty glass boxes.
I hardly ever buy plants any more - mostly I "clone" my own. I have half again as many vivs as I have for my animals, just for plants.
I'm not really trying to minimize expenditure, my personal equation also includes things like spending less time shopping by buying in bulk, or spending less time waiting by having things on hand.


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## tinc2344 (Jul 23, 2008)

jgragg said:


> I have never bought wood. I collect my own, not quite by the truckload but I do make a good load when I go cutting.


What kind of wood are you collecting that you can use in dart frog enclosures?


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

I’ll echo what @Rain_Frog is saying. Most of the cost for dart frogs comes from our desire to make a living art piece. A lot of husbandry mistakes too.

I’ve said before- a vented decent sized tub with gravel, leaf litter, and some pothos, set under a shop light and occasionally misted makes a better forever home for a dart frog than most newcomer displays I’ve seen.


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

jgragg said:


> Tons of good info here. *TONS.*
> 
> We could also sort of invert the question. What are some of the reliable ways to pay "max retail"?
> 
> ...


This is amazingly helpful advice and so is the advice everyone else has shared.

I wondered if it was possible to use wood or leaves from my yard in dart frog enclosures? Do I just bake the wood and leaves? Is there any types I should avoid using?


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Actually i was referring to branches / logs type stuff. I do buy cork. Large orders / in bulk, and keep "the dregs" in plastic tubs in that same shed I mentioned above. Sorry to not be clear on that - *cork is absolutely irreplaceable*.



> What kind of wood are you collecting that you can use in dart frog enclosures?


I keep snakes, not frogs, but the conditions are (I gather from reading here) quite suitable for darts too.

Nearly all the wood I collect these days is juniper. Most of it has been fire-killed (but not charred), usually at least several years ago so all the bark has peeled and blown away. Drive around a 10K-ac (or 100K...) old range fire and you can shop to your heart's content. Just take a folding pruning saw, or one of those emergency cable saws.
This juniper lasts apparently forever. Formerly, living elsewhere, I have collected driftwood, mostly from freshwater systems (old flood debris) but sometimes from high above the tide line. In rainy environments, the salt washes out pretty fast. Stick your tongue to it, you'll see.
I have also at various times played with various native hardwoods (oak, maple, alder, etc). Yes they will rot, but...if you're prepared to accept that, it won't bother you. Life is change. Matter and energy are in constant rearrangement. Also, a branch's viv position matters. Suspended in the air is very different from resting on substrate - suspended lasts longer. Also, being bare vs being covered in epiphytes is different - nude branches last longer. Finally, collected dead and cured vs cut green matters - dead lasts longer.
Manzanita is sort of a native rock star. It lasts really well, and can be anything from thick and pretty straight, to "looks like an afro". So thick and curly and just about spherical - a sweet look, though can be impractical for a viv. And of course, anything in between. Much of the West has some _Arctostaphylos_ species. And no, California does not "protect" manzanita under some kind of blanket rule. In forested ecosystems it's largely a pioneer genus that dominates for a few decades after fire, then gets shaded out and killed by the overtopping trees. Fuel for the next fire. Or it carpets old roads or other man-made clearings, until it gets scraped off the next time the opening is needed (e.g. logging roads, log decks or landings, or fire breaks).
I don't much want to come off like an ass (though I guess i don't very much care, either) but my inner cheapskate insists that paying 30 dollars for a stick is absurd if you can just walk one up for less money. I play outside a fair amount, so if I see something nice and it's in a legit spot, I'll pick it up. Strap it to my daypack, or just hand-carry it out.

Also, I don't want to hear from anyone (like I have before) "that's simply illegal!!!" 

It might well be - never collect in anything called a "park", for example. Places like that are usually pretty clear about "hands off the stuff". Look it up if in doubt.
But it might well not be. As a nation 330 million strong and growing, we together own *hundreds of millions of acres* of land covered in live and dead vegetation. Nearly all of it is open to some form of recreational or non-commercial wood utilization. Much of that requires no permit, or if anything is required, something as simple and cheap as an online firewood permit will often cover a truckload (let alone 2-3 pieces...) of dead wood. So it very often is legal, or if not "blanket-legal", it can be legal with a little effort. Figure it out and get after it, if you're so inclined.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Nepenthesx said:


> ...
> 
> I wondered if it was possible to use wood or leaves from my yard in dart frog enclosures? Do I just bake the wood and leaves? Is there any types I should avoid using?


Well, yeah, sure it is. When I lived in Florida and had a yard with a live oak overstory, I ripped out my lawn and just let the oak leaves be my ground cover (along with some things I planted). At the time, the principal species I used in my vivs for leaf litter, was Southern live oak (there was usually a little water oak thrown in - a ubiquitous, almost weedy species). Often I just raked it from my own yard. Live oak leaves are well-defended against bugs and fungus - good stuff. They last a few years, with no drama.

You can search on here about potential biosecurity treatments, and stuff to avoid. My biosecurity issues are reduced relative to most folks here, because my animals are snakes. The lack of highly permeable skin is a plus - I accept that "frogs are different". I almost never actively treat leaves or wood, though I often let such material sit through a winter or two, more or less outdoors (unheated shed or garage, or literally just laying out in the yard). Now I live in the 4 corners region - hot in summer, cold in winter, and dry nearly all the time. Pretty hostile to life, really. Sometimes if I've pulled something out of a log jam, I'll hose the dirt off. Then throw it in the yard for a year or two. (Most of my yard is xeriscaped - mulched, with very precise & limited watering. It's easy to find a dry spot that cooks in the sun. The only risk is dog pee, and i control that.)

People on here really stress about "toxic". Use common sense and also do a little reading. Would you let your kid play with it? Stick it in their mouth or nose? (Yeah, kids...) Rub their eyes after handling it? Consider route of exposure and also dosage. High quality drinking water will kill you, if you drink too much of it. Or inhale it. Otherwise it's fine - good for you, even. Perhaps essential. If you're not spraying crap in your yard, you're off to a solid start. Also - yes of course you can always rinse it, bake it, microwave it, boil it, _whatever_ if you're concerned. Such treatments will vary in their effects and effectiveness, naturally. Think "dose" again - how much and how long. 170F on a cookie sheet for 20 minutes will kill an awful lot.

People also stress about rotting. Meh. Circle of life. Everything comes, and everything goes. Again, common sense, knowing what you're looking at, and realistic expectations go a long way. Got any specific questions? What species of plant in the yard are you looking at? What applications?

cheers


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I find it important and enjoyable - equal parts - to identify what rock and wood general values are wanted for what purpose, with what animals, what the animal is likely to do, and the vivaria plan. 

Example would be the desirability of slate or rock pcs with absolutely flush bases, au naturale or worked, filed etc. I moor my heavy pieces in the sub clean against the enclosure floor. For snakes and lizards that dig and probe, and have been known to surpass their capacities in repeat encounter, an unavoidable captive logistic. Animals can get in freak accidents in native situ as well. Examples exist even in fossil record

Curves and constructs that create desirable segway or platform to resources, eg; a perfect stoney embankment around a water dish its so pleasant to see an animal take a sip, or even just flick the water surface, and then just..relax there for a while. 

For lizards having the edge below eyeline is something I like to do with rock and cork. Clean to replace in the cut out created, without pushing, packing, or irregularities to create animal interest in getting under the water dish, to tip or be unsafe per weight.

I dont think I have ever placed a stone or a stick or a tube of cork anywhere in a viv field for a decorative purpose. They happen look good just because of what they are.

Weight, size, shape, purpose. Raw, worked. I have some rock and wood waiting for projects they will be a part of and some I have kept for years. They are like old friends.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

This is a great thread! Would like to make my own comments:

1. Reptile Expos - You can get some great deals. The Toronto Reptile Expo is fantastic for this, Little Turtle ResQ are amazing people with a great mission, and have lots of items that get donated to them or surrendered for free when they take in animals - everything from tanks to decor. They work on a Pay What You Can basis - be fair and honourable, they are friends of mine, but its usually a smashing deal. I got about $500 retail value of goods at the last show for a $100 donation. Pretty rad.

2. Kijiji or Equivalent - Never know what you find. If you can moderate your emotional response to being ghosted by people and really, really ignorant questions, it's a good place to sell and buy. Caveat Emptor.

3. Get your spouse to work at your fave reptile shop - Well, yes, she does... and gives us 10% off. She loves the job, I like the store, we love the discount 😆😅


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