# Will tadpole break out of their gel when ready?



## Steverd

I just noticed the Azureus tadpoles are now moving in their eggs, spinning in circles. How do you know when it's time to move them to separate grow out containers? Will they break out of their eggs when it's time?
This is the first set of eggs that I've pulled from the terrarium that has survived. All of my other tadpoles I've found in pools of water in the tank.









Thank you,
Steve


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## Gamble

Yes, they will break out when ready.

As you can see, they are in the shape of a circle. Once they hatch out, they will be straight, not curved.

Congrats!


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## Steverd

I will say more like this then.
I just pulled four of the five and put into their desperate containers.









Hope these photos help a few other people also.
Steve


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## mattolsen

Occassionally I'll get a clutch that looks further developed than they should be and once I see the "yolk" disappear I'll take a razor knife and carefully make a slit in the eggsack. I'm not sure if they necessarily need the help but I've never lost a frog doing this. I have had a tad or two die in the egg that looked like they couldn't get out. Again it may not be the right thing to do but it works for me. Good luck and I hope they make it.


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## bristles

I second what "mattolsen" said except I use a dental tool (curved metal hook) to pop their jell sack when they look like they should be out judging from their size (something you get a eye for after a while) and the next day they are swimming(I always keep a few mm of tad tea in the dish) around their petri dish like "Flipper" (guess a Flipper reference shows how old I am...darn)


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## Pacblu202

Steverd said:


> I will say more like this then.
> I just pulled four of the five and put into their desperate containers.
> 
> View attachment 33304
> 
> 
> Hope these photos help a few other people also.
> Steve


They retract their veins right before popping out or very soon after.
I just let mine pop out by themselves. No problems for me doing that. Those aren't straight compared to how they will be. You can tell


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## Ed

mattolsen said:


> Occassionally I'll get a clutch that looks further developed than they should be and once I see the "yolk" disappear I'll take a razor knife and carefully make a slit in the eggsack. I'm not sure if they necessarily need the help but I've never lost a frog doing this. I have had a tad or two die in the egg that looked like they couldn't get out. Again it may not be the right thing to do but it works for me. Good luck and I hope they make it.


I would suggest not cutting out tadpoles since if they can't hatch on thier own, it indicates some issues with the tadpole. Hatching is accomplished by the secretion of enzymes from a specialized gland that dissolve the egg wall allowing the tadpole to free itself. If a tadpole cannot free itself, then there is probably something wrong with the enzymes, or the gland... This is a potential source of frogs that cannot reproduce on thier own in captivity... 

some comments

Ed


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## Gamble

Ed said:


> I would suggest not cutting out tadpoles since if they can't hatch on thier own, it indicates some issues with the tadpole. Hatching is accomplished by the secretion of enzymes from a specialized gland that dissolve the egg wall allowing the tadpole to free itself. If a tadpole cannot free itself, then there is probably something wrong with the enzymes, or the gland... This is a potential source of frogs that cannot reproduce on thier own in captivity...
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


I concur. I also do not "free" them based on that theory/statement.

Also, correct me if im wrong Ed, but hasnt it been suggested by Skysdale that its potentially beneficial the longer a tad is in the egg sac before hatching?


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## Steverd

Gamble said:


> Also, correct me if im wrong Ed, but hasnt it been suggested by Skysdale that its potentially beneficial the longer a tad is in the egg sac before hatching?


That would make total sense to me! 
Don't want any "preemie" tadpoles. 

Steve


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## Gamble

Steverd said:


> That would make total sense to me!
> Don't want any "preemie" tadpoles.
> 
> Steve


I think the premise of that was bc some people keep their tads a little warmer (mid 70s) to help them develop faster, and it was suggested that keeping them cooler and letting them develop slower was more beneficial due to the nutrients... etc the tads received within the egg/egg sack. (If im remembering correctly)

For instance, i keep my eggs a bit cooler (70/71°F), so they generally take 2 1/2 - 3 weeks to hatch out.
I do not know if its due to that or not, i have eggs go bad like everyone, but i rarely have tadpole deaths once they hatch out.


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## Ed

Gamble said:


> I think the premise of that was bc some people keep their tads a little warmer (mid 70s) to help them develop faster, and it was suggested that keeping them cooler and letting them develop slower was more beneficial due to the nutrients... etc the tads received within the egg/egg sack. (If im remembering correctly)
> 
> For instance, i keep my eggs a bit cooler (70/71°F), so they generally take 2 1/2 - 3 weeks to hatch out.
> I do not know if its due to that or not, i have eggs go bad like everyone, but i rarely have tadpole deaths once they hatch out.


The theory is that the lower temperature reduces metabolic costs allowing for the tadpole to grow to a larger size on the same amount of calories... 

but this may come at some other costs that we haven't figured out yet.. however for example with auratus, they choose warmer locations than that for at least optimal tadpole growth.. (78F) which is an indication that the temperatures that the hobby considers ideal for the frogs and tadpoles are well below the optimal temperature which can reduce immune response (for one example)... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Gamble

Ed said:


> The theory is that the lower temperature reduces metabolic costs allowing for the tadpole to grow to a larger size on the same amount of calories...
> 
> but this may come at some other costs that we haven't figured out yet.. however for example with auratus, they choose warmer locations than that for at least optimal tadpole growth.. (78F) which is an indication that the temperatures that the hobby considers ideal for the frogs and tadpoles are well below the optimal temperature which can reduce immune response (for one example)...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I understand, but that is just a possible scenario, correct?
Is it possible that us keeping eggs at a lower temp could have no ill effects at all?

Is it also possible, that in the wild, an animals survival is dependant on producing as many offspring as possible to ensure survival as a species, and therefore they lay at that temperature to ensure as many offspring hatching as possible? (Playing the game of odds).

Is a temperature range of a steady lower 70s even achievable in their enviroment? (Are we considering something thats not even a viable option for them in the wild ... therefore making their preference & ours uncomparable).


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## Ed

Gamble said:


> I understand, but that is just a possible scenario, correct?
> Is it possible that us keeping eggs at a lower temp could have no ill effects at all?


Unlikely that there are no ill effects.. for example, immune response to pathogens is sub-optimum at cooler temperatures.. Consider that there is wide spread use of anti-fungala, bacteriostatic agents and/or bacterialcidal agent(s) in egg rearing ( ex humic acids (tadpole tea)), ,methylene blue)... These practices are possibly a crutch to get the eggs to survive due to suboptimal rearing conditions... 



Gamble said:


> Is it also possible, that in the wild, an animals survival is dependant on producing as many offspring as possible to ensure survival as a species, and therefore they lay at that temperature to ensure as many offspring hatching as possible? (Playing the game of odds).


Only if you ignore that if provided with the same opportunities in captivity, the animals will behave in a manner to optimize the production of offspring.. Consider the fact, that you are forcing the animals to engage in abnormal behaviors by denying the ability to behave normally.... 



Gamble said:


> Is a temperature range of a steady lower 70s even achievable in their enviroment? (Are we considering something thats not even a viable option for them in the wild ... therefore making their preference & ours uncomparable).


Depending on the species, it can be part of thier normal exposure during specific parts of the year... However, if we consider that one of the main reasons people try to keep the enclosures in the low 70s is to avoid heat issues from closing the tanks up to maximize humidity..which is not a normal occurance for most of the frogs to be kept in that sort of condition 24/7/365.... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Gamble

Ed said:


> Unlikely that there are no ill effects.. for example, immune response to pathogens is sub-optimum at cooler temperatures.. Consider that there is wide spread use of anti-fungala, bacteriostatic agents and/or bacterialcidal agent(s) in egg rearing ( ex humic acids (tadpole tea)), ,methylene blue)... These practices are possibly a crutch to get the eggs to survive due to suboptimal rearing conditions...
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you ignore that if provided with the same opportunities in captivity, the animals will behave in a manner to optimize the production of offspring.. Consider the fact, that you are forcing the animals to engage in abnormal behaviors by denying the ability to behave normally....
> 
> 
> 
> Depending on the species, it can be part of thier normal exposure during specific parts of the year... However, if we consider that one of the main reasons people try to keep the enclosures in the low 70s is to avoid heat issues from closing the tanks up to maximize humidity..which is not a normal occurance for most of the frogs to be kept in that sort of condition 24/7/365....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


That all makes perfect sense. Thx for clarifying. Our hobby will be at a loss when the unfortunate day comes that people like yourself are no longer able to "teach" us.

So are you suggesting, that in enclosures such as eurovivs, that have a source of ventilation, and are not completely "sealed" that temps can be higher than mid-70s, or is that too passive a means of circulation to allow such temps?

Or am i totally misunderstanding the information you are providing?

Im not sure if anyone has ever asked you this, but How do you keep all of your frogs & tanks? (Parameter wise; tad rearing; egg development... etc)


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## mattolsen

Ed said:


> I would suggest not cutting out tadpoles since if they can't hatch on thier own, it indicates some issues with the tadpole. Hatching is accomplished by the secretion of enzymes from a specialized gland that dissolve the egg wall allowing the tadpole to free itself. If a tadpole cannot free itself, then there is probably something wrong with the enzymes, or the gland... This is a potential source of frogs that cannot reproduce on thier own in captivity...
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Is it possible that using R/O water, probably varying degrees of difference in the amount of dissolved solids in the wild compared to that in the hobby, temperature/elevation differences thus all having an impact on the secretion of such enzymes? I'm not stating that it's a great idea to cut all of your tads, or even any of them. I just have noticed in a few clutches of intermedius that rarely there are tads that seem to be fully developed but unable to emerge from the egg. I've thought of this and why it happens and I can't help but hypothesize that several differences between wild and in the hobby contribute to this occurring. If it's solely a problem with enzyme production wouldn't I see it more often in a group of frogs that have produces 3-4 tads like that? Or should I be looking more into the likelihood that it results from some enzyme mutation due to environmental or genetic factors? Just an interesting topic I've been curious about. 

Is their any evidence that suggests parental care or lack there of could be a contributing factor? 

Good conversation.


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## Ed

Gamble said:


> That all makes perfect sense. Thx for clarifying. Our hobby will be at a loss when the unfortunate day comes that people like yourself are no longer able to "teach" us.


There would be a lot less for us to do, if people spent more time looking into actually understanding the frogs and thier needs as opposed to simply looking for the recipe that lets a person breed a frog (not aimed at you, a general comment). The hobby is in some way a lot better than when I first began to participate in these discussions..but there is still a lot of dogma, that is well entrenched. 



Gamble said:


> So are you suggesting, that in enclosures such as eurovivs, that have a source of ventilation, and are not completely "sealed" that temps can be higher than mid-70s, or is that too passive a means of circulation to allow such temps?


In my 20 gallon verticles, my vents run from left to right and are a minimum of 4 inches high and run right to the top of the tanks. As the air inside the tanks heats it flows up and out which pulls the air up from the bottom. I virtually never have water condensing on the glass... 

Until the battery corroded and killed my IR temperature gun, I used to routinely take temperatures of the frogs during the day. The hottest I've temp gunned a frog was a D. truncatus "yellow" that had a skin temperature of well over 90F (actually I think it was 95 F), during last summer's heat wave while it was chasing fruit flies at the top of the tank.... The bottom of the tank was about 80 F.. 
I've shot skin temperatures of Dendropsophus ebracattus at close to 100 F while I was at the zoo and the frogs were perched close to the power compact bulbs (which had a temperature of over 120 F). 
I have some computer fans that one of these days I'm going to install on the 20s to create a more active air circulation system... 



> Im not sure if anyone has ever asked you this, but How do you keep all of your frogs & tanks? (Parameter wise; tad rearing; egg development... etc)


For tadpoles over the years I've done everything from yogurt cups to glass jars to aquariums... In the early days, I kept the tadpoles cooler but on an anecdotal basis, I noted that we had better success with the tadpoles if they were kept warmer and I kept them at 80 F..(this was for Pipa parva, D. auratus, D. tinctorious, R. amazonicus, D. ebracattus, A. callydryas and a number of others) with other tadpoles like M. aurantiaca, did better at cooler temperatures (73 F)... 

For froglets, I've done everything from shoeboxes to larger sterilite bins to aquariums... In the beginning, I kept them cooler but as I learned more about thier physiology and behaviors, I threw that out the window and started keeping them warmer. This thesis is available from Amazon fairly inexpensively and goes into some pretty good depth on auratus and is an example of using the resources to understand the behavior better http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/76948-dendrobates-auratus-thesis.html 

This one gives some good insight into how tinctorius behave in the wild... 
http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br/articles/volume9/number1/913752.pdf

How female pumilio behave when feeding http://www.harding.edu/plummer/herp/pdf/wilhelmamp10.pdf 

and so forth.. 


At this time, I'm only rearing froglets from some of my obligates as part of some things I'm testing/seeing with frequency of feeding and carotenoids.... 

Does that help at all? 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed

mattolsen said:


> Is it possible that using R/O water, probably varying degrees of difference in the amount of dissolved solids in the wild compared to that in the hobby, temperature/elevation differences thus all having an impact on the secretion of such enzymes?


Well, we have to consider the impact of the jelly that surrounds the eggs as this is going to contain a substantial level of minerals.. (see for example ScienceDirect.com - Developmental Biology - Toad egg-jelly as a source of divalent cations essential for fertilization) and retains calcium, magnesium and possibly potassium but not sodium or chlorine.. So as an impact that is unlikely. 

Temperature can be an issue since many enzymes are known to be sensitive to temperatures and mutations can potentially change the stability at ceratin temperatures (an classic example is wingless fruit flies, or even siamese cats...).Temperature can also impact the rate that an enzyme functions with lower temperatures often slowing down the reaction..
Elevation is unlikely to be a cause unless it also contains major temperature changes... Secretion of enzymes is typically a function of nutrition and if deprived of certain cofactors it may result in a failure to assume the proper shape to function correctly. 



mattolsen said:


> If it's solely a problem with enzyme production wouldn't I see it more often in a group of frogs that have produces 3-4 tads like that? Or should I be looking more into the likelihood that it results from some enzyme mutation due to environmental or genetic factors? Just an interesting topic I've been curious about.


I wonder if people are quick to jump the gun (like people who cut open snake or lizard eggs when the incubation is up). The egg begins to show deformation from the action of the enzymes (such as flattening), but the enzyme action is going to be the greatest closest to the head of the tadpole and it is possible that repeatedly disturbing the tadpoles over the course of a day or days, is resulting in the dilution of the enzyme inside the egg resulting in damage to the membrane over a larger region instead of a lot of damage to primarily one region... 



mattolsen said:


> Is their any evidence that suggests parental care or lack there of could be a contributing factor?


Maybe, with the frogs doing the parental care, there is going to a reduced disturbance of the eggs since the wetting of the eggs by the male only takes a few minutes a day which can be very different with a person dealing with a bunch of petri dishes (or getting antsy for them to hatch and checking them multiple times a day...).. 
The male is also going to add some ions when he wets the eggs but probably not as much as is already contained in the egg jelly... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Gamble

Ed said:


> There would be a lot less for us to do, if people spent more time looking into actually understanding the frogs and thier needs as opposed to simply looking for the recipe that lets a person breed a frog (not aimed at you, a general comment). The hobby is in some way a lot better than when I first began to participate in these discussions..but there is still a lot of dogma, that is well entrenched.
> 
> 
> 
> In my 20 gallon verticles, my vents run from left to right and are a minimum of 4 inches high and run right to the top of the tanks. As the air inside the tanks heats it flows up and out which pulls the air up from the bottom. I virtually never have water condensing on the glass...
> 
> Until the battery corroded and killed my IR temperature gun, I used to routinely take temperatures of the frogs during the day. The hottest I've temp gunned a frog was a D. truncatus "yellow" that had a skin temperature of well over 90F (actually I think it was 95 F), during last summer's heat wave while it was chasing fruit flies at the top of the tank.... The bottom of the tank was about 80 F..
> I've shot skin temperatures of Dendropsophus ebracattus at close to 100 F while I was at the zoo and the frogs were perched close to the power compact bulbs (which had a temperature of over 120 F).
> I have some computer fans that one of these days I'm going to install on the 20s to create a more active air circulation system...
> 
> 
> 
> For tadpoles over the years I've done everything from yogurt cups to glass jars to aquariums... In the early days, I kept the tadpoles cooler but on an anecdotal basis, I noted that we had better success with the tadpoles if they were kept warmer and I kept them at 80 F..(this was for Pipa parva, D. auratus, D. tinctorious, R. amazonicus, D. ebracattus, A. callydryas and a number of others) with other tadpoles like M. aurantiaca, did better at cooler temperatures (73 F)...
> 
> For froglets, I've done everything from shoeboxes to larger sterilite bins to aquariums... In the beginning, I kept them cooler but as I learned more about thier physiology and behaviors, I threw that out the window and started keeping them warmer. This thesis is available from Amazon fairly inexpensively and goes into some pretty good depth on auratus and is an example of using the resources to understand the behavior better http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/76948-dendrobates-auratus-thesis.html
> 
> This one gives some good insight into how tinctorius behave in the wild...
> http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br/articles/volume9/number1/913752.pdf
> 
> How female pumilio behave when feeding http://www.harding.edu/plummer/herp/pdf/wilhelmamp10.pdf
> 
> and so forth..
> 
> 
> At this time, I'm only rearing froglets from some of my obligates as part of some things I'm testing/seeing with frequency of feeding and carotenoids....
> 
> Does that help at all?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Ed-
I was able to download the last 2 links, but i was unable to locate Ben Chans thesis. Could you possibly provide the link on amazon that you have used?
Thx.


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## kitcolebay

Very interesting read. Thank you gentlemen!


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## mattolsen

Ed said:


> Well, we have to consider the impact of the jelly that surrounds the eggs as this is going to contain a substantial level of minerals.. (see for example ScienceDirect.com - Developmental Biology - Toad egg-jelly as a source of divalent cations essential for fertilization) and retains calcium, magnesium and possibly potassium but not sodium or chlorine.. So as an impact that is unlikely.
> 
> Temperature can be an issue since many enzymes are known to be sensitive to temperatures and mutations can potentially change the stability at ceratin temperatures (an classic example is wingless fruit flies, or even siamese cats...).Temperature can also impact the rate that an enzyme functions with lower temperatures often slowing down the reaction..
> Elevation is unlikely to be a cause unless it also contains major temperature changes... Secretion of enzymes is typically a function of nutrition and if deprived of certain cofactors it may result in a failure to assume the proper shape to function correctly.
> 
> "Enzyme activity can be affected by other molecules. Inhibitors are molecules that decrease enzyme activity; activators are molecules that increase activity. Many drugs and poisons are enzyme inhibitors. Activity is also affected by temperature, pressure, chemical environment (e.g., pH), and the concentration of substrate."
> 
> This is just something I found on enzymes. This is primarily what I was suggesting as potential reasons for instances of the "jelly" not properly degrading as seen in the hobby occasionally. Just wondering if several enzyme inhibitors could be present in captive environments such as temperature(as mentioned), pressure(my comment about elevation, and geographic location), chemical environment(due to the chemical environment in our houses: jungle environment), and water(pH of R/O, aged tap:rainwater).
> 
> Again not insinuating anyone is wrong just enjoy discussing these possibilities. I'm a bio student so this is my entertainment for the day. This could be an interesting topic for my undergrad research project.


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## Ed

mattolsen said:


> This is just something I found on enzymes. This is primarily what I was suggesting as potential reasons for instances of the "jelly" not properly degrading as seen in the hobby occasionally. Just wondering if several enzyme inhibitors could be present in captive environments such as temperature(as mentioned), pressure(my comment about elevation, and geographic location), chemical environment(due to the chemical environment in our houses: jungle environment), and water(pH of R/O, aged tap:rainwater).


When we are discussing the eggs, there are several places where we can talk pass one another when referring to jelly.. Depending on the species, there is the large external jelly mass which mainly consists of mucoproteins which can have a number of functions, including avoiding dessication, thermal buffering, source of ions, and other functions. This is the jelly I referenced as as source of ions. There are also two smaller layers that are part of the egg membranes (the number of which differs between species). 
When I mentioned the jelly mass, I referring this larger outer mass, and this degrades in some part due to enzymatic action but liquification is also in no small part due to bacterial action over time. If you inhibit the bacterial action, then you can prevent the mass from liquifying properly. I would suspect this to be the case before we get to any of those above examples where there is inhibition of the enzymes since many people include baterialstatic chemicals in thier egg care. 

The liquification of this material provides a small puddle in which the hatched tadpoles can remain until transported.... 



mattolsen said:


> Again not insinuating anyone is wrong just enjoy discussing these possibilities. I'm a bio student so this is my entertainment for the day. This could be an interesting topic for my undergrad research project.


I'm not taking it as insinuation that something is wrong. 

One of the interesting side bars involves egg morphology and obligates. In different species, and taxa the number of actual membrane layers can vary significantly. This is probably why attempts to feed obligates using eggs from other genera is often unsuccessful unless the membrane layers are removed... 

Some other comments

Ed


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## Ed

Gamble said:


> Ed-
> I was able to download the last 2 links, but i was unable to locate Ben Chans thesis. Could you possibly provide the link on amazon that you have used?
> Thx.


It looks like the available copies are probably gone. The only potential source for a copy of the thesis is ProQuest Login - ProQuest 

Ed


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## Gamble

Ed said:


> It looks like the available copies are probably gone. The only potential source for a copy of the thesis is ProQuest Login - ProQuest
> 
> Ed


Still couldnt download it. It is saying that my browser is incompatible.
Oh well. I appreciate the effort tho. Thx Ed.


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## Ed

Gamble said:


> Still couldnt download it. It is saying that my browser is incompatible.
> Oh well. I appreciate the effort tho. Thx Ed.


A lot of it was summarized in an article in Leaf Litter..... 

Ed


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## Capitol City Frog Farm

I don't help mine out, they would never get help in the wild. Just how I look at it.


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## Froggyplush

Thanks for the 411 my azuerus layed its first batch of eggs I think a few more days before they bust out of gel


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## DendroRachel

Great thread! Thanks for asking the question and for everyone who has replied!

I have a question that seems to fit in here so I'm going to piggy back.... 

My Citronellas have been laying for about 8 months total (they quit laying for a while after I moved) and we are still getting very poor success with eggs. Sometimes the eggs don't develop at all, sometimes they develop for only a weekish, and occasionally they make it until they look like they will hatch in a day or two but they egg's gel liquifies early and the tadpoles die. I can tell its too early based of successful tadpoles (I've only had 6), pictures, and info posted on DB. The veins/arteries are still externally visible and the tadpoles twitch and squirm for a bit before they die in a few hours. I've lost whole clutches to this a few times. 

temps in the 70s, humidity ~90%
varied diet (d.mel, d.hydei, flour beetles + larva, isos, springs, bean beetles)
Repashy Calcium Plus ~ 4-5 times a week
Repashy Vitamin A Plus ~ once a week


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## frog dude

My first guess was a Vitamin A deficiency, until I saw your using it once a week. I'd be very wary when using Vitamin A, as an overdose can lead to a condition that has been proved fatal many times before. 

I do have a question for you though... How old are the supplements you are using, and how do you store them?


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## kitcolebay

I have no experience with eggs. Only what I've read and the little of it that I've retained. The simple thing that first came to mind when I read it was, how much water do you have in the dish with the eggs? Sorry if I'm asking the obvious.

-Chris


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## bristles

I just mist mine so they don't dry out, & when the get close to hatching I keep a few mm of water in the dish so the tads stay moist until they are moved to cups.


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## Ed

frog dude said:


> My first guess was a Vitamin A deficiency, until I saw your using it once a week. I'd be very wary when using Vitamin A, as an overdose can lead to a condition that has been proved fatal many times before.


Where are you getting the information that a weekly supplementation of vitamin A has been fatal many times before? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

DendroRachel said:


> The veins/arteries are still externally visible and the tadpoles twitch and squirm for a bit before they die in a few hours. I've lost whole clutches to this a few times.


The red veins/arteries are the extension of the gill filiments which help facilitate gas exchange for the tadpoles. Tadpoles can hatch with these still present and do just fine. 

When you say temperatures are in the 70s, where exactly in the 70s? What is the high, the low and where you see it most of the time? 




DendroRachel said:


> varied diet (d.mel, d.hydei, flour beetles + larva, isos, springs, bean beetles)
> \


Out of these which ones are you dusting?


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## DendroRachel

I have heard weekly is OK but more than that is dangerous due to possible liver (? or kidney...?) failure. 

The humidity and parents seem to keep the eggs moist enough in my tank so I don't really add any water. 

I am dusting the fruit flies and bean beetles only. Most of the time I'm feeding ff. 

My temps are 70-75, I know this is a little chilly so I've added a large heating pad (about 11x17?) to the bottom of my 40 gallon high tank. After we moved we've relocated our frogs to our basement which is why its difficult to heat up. After we added the heat pad their activity level went up and their behavior returned to normal.


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## Ed

So what is the temperature where the eggs are being laid? 

You should be dusting at every feeding regardless of the feeder used. The reason for this is because the frogs may not be feeding enough on the dusted feeders to achieve sufficiently balanced diet. Somethings like seeded isopods and springtails can't be dusted but all other feeders should be dusted. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## DendroRachel

Not sure on the egg laying site temps... I don't have an infrared thermometer  just added it to my christmas wish list though! 

I'll start dusting the flour beetles and larva. 

Any advice on how to get my temps up some more? maybe higher wattage on my bulbs (I have a single 24" 20watt 2.0 UVB ReptiSun bulb)? Thanks so much for the help!


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## DendroRachel

oops! was doing some research and had my tank size wrong! not sure how that happened but I have a 29 gallon tank at 30"x12"x18"


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## Ed

DendroRachel said:


> Any advice on how to get my temps up some more? maybe higher wattage on my bulbs (I have a single 24" 20watt 2.0 UVB ReptiSun bulb)? Thanks so much for the help!


Is it a finished or unfinished basement? If it is unfinished, you can tent off the area with some thick plastic (or build a small frog room) which will help contain the heat into that area. If the lights are the main source of heat, what does the temperature get down to at night? (what is the temperature right before the lights come on in the morning)? 

Ed


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## DendroRachel

The light isn't the main source, the heat pad underneath is. The basement is partially finished... I might be able to tarp it off though. I'm not sure about am temps - I'll check tomorrow.


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