# NatuRose



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

NatuRose - anyone using it?

I had found some referenced to this stuff in a old topic and wanted to see if anyone had tried it and how well it worked. Did you use it for tads or for adults as well?
old thread


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

anyone?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I used to mix it up in my beef heart food recipe when I raised discus. It was supposed to bring out the red colors in the discus. I never saw any difference in the discus fed with it or without it.

If you want to try some I've got some I'll send you for free. At least it's a natural ingredient so it shouldn't do any harm to the frogs.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I think Brent Brock has mentioned using it, don't remember if he said whether it did any good. I would only dust FF for frogs with it, not give it to tads. For tads I would feed cyclop-eeze, since it seems to be a good food with lots of nice fatty acids and other nutrition.


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

I spoke with Patrick Nabors about this product about 2 years ago. If I remember correctly, he said someone had tried it in the past but had mixed results. He was also worried about how much could be safely used. There seems to be some toxicity issues with the Astaxathin. I'm sure if you used it only so often it wouldn't be a problem. It might be worth a testing.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Did you end up trying the Naturose Kyle?

I just got some and want to try it on my intermedius and probably my vents. My only concern is that i've heard there may be toxicity issues if too much is used. 

I feed both species melanos 5-6 days a week, and alternate Rep-Cal and Herptivite. What would be a good starting point? I honestly have no idea how much to use so a safe starting point would be helpful.

My other question is is there any way to supplement tads with Naturose? I read something Corey wrote about making her own flakes and adding natorose to them. Where might i find info on how to do that?


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## Max Power (Jul 22, 2006)

I can tell you when I put it in the discus food I make, it works wonders... probably the best red colour enhancer out there. I would be very interested in learning more about the toxicity issues with darts though.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I have used it for years on citronella tads and any other frog with yellow. Works wonders for citronellas. Until I started using Naturose all the froglets were a very washed out yellow with lots of black, after using they stand up to the WC adults coloration. Huge difference.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I use it with my leucs, bastis, and bearded dragons - it really does work wonders. I acquired 4 bastis several months ago, and they were all pretty washed out looking. Since then, Ive been dustng with NatuRose 1 x weekly (they get fed a little bit every day or so) and their colors are very vibrant. My lecus have gone from a yellow to almost an orange.

It also works wonders on beardie colors - I breed sandfires, and the NatuRose makes great looking dragons spectacular!


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Kyle,

I've used Cyclop-eeze (another source of astaxanthin) on tadpoles from multiple species with no problem. While I've seen speculation about potential side effects, it is being tested in humans as both a general anti-oxidant and specific anti-oxidant of LDL (low density lipoprotein --> impact on atherosclerosis). So far the results would suggest fairly low toxicity but like any substance, too much of a good thing can lead to problems. Once or twice a week shouldn't cause any problems.

I use paparika for froglets to adults because it's cheap and works to a nice powder with a mortar and pestle. I mix the paparika dust 1:1 with my Herptivite:RepCal powder for dusting.

Bill


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Wow I had forgot about this thread. So where does everyone buy NatuRose? The one place I found it only seems to sell larger quantities.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

I got mine at http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com. I looked several places but they seemed to have the best price. I got the 8oz thinking it would be pretty small, it'll probably last several years! I hope it doesn't go bad.

I think i'll start adding it to the dusting mix once a week and see if i notice a difference.

Also, i remembered after posting this that i got a sampler of some flake fish food with my order. I checked the label and it has the naturose in it already! I'm going to try adding this to my vent tads diet since i'm currently feeding tad bites exclusively.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

What fish flake? I've been looking for a fish flake that has naturose in it already to add to tadpole diet, but the only one I found was Australian, lol.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

They call it "Tropical Medley". It came from brineshrimpdirect.

Here are the ingredients FYI:
-Fish Protein Hydrolisate
-Yeast Protein
-Soy Protein
-Egg
-Martne & Freshwater Plankton
-Rice Gluten
-Spirulina
-Kelp
-Naturose
-Lecithin
-Binder
-Stabilized Vitamin C
-Vitamin & Mineral premix
No artificial colors or preservatives added


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Thanks they at least had a 8oz bottle for an ok price. Much better than the $100 pound prices I was finding.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I just caught this thread. I've been using Naturose for close to a year now and would say it is nothing short of miraculous for putting color on pumilio. The results are truly amazing.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

How often do you dust with it Brent?


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## jmoose (Jun 21, 2006)

Quick questions.
Does NatuRose enhance only red/orangish color or any colors in general ?
If just for red/orange, is there anything like NatuRose that enhance Blue/Green or Yellow ?
Thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "There seems to be some toxicity issues with the Astaxathin. I'm sure if you used it only so often it wouldn't be a problem. It might be worth a testing."endsnip

I posted this in a different thead (see http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... n&start=15) 

snip Canthaxanthin demonstrates a higher affinity to the liver than astaxanthin but both can affect the levels of cholesterol (increase) in the blood. 
Here is a publication on ataxanthin showing that at least short term moderate levels are not a problem 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... query_hl=4

Here is one for toxicity in canthaxanthin 
http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/oldcomm7/out10_en.html

As with many things, some of the issues are Genera dependent. 
In this one it cites a study with chickens that indicates higher levels accumulate in the yolk (and recommends no more than 0.05 mg/kg bw for the temporary acceptable intake (canthaxanthin) 
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/j ... 22je09.htm

I checked on pubmed and a couple of other reference sites and was unable to find any links to toxicity (such as LD 50 etc) of astaxanthin as opposed to canthaxanthin (which is species dependent). "endsnip 


Blue coloration is due to the reflection of blue light from the iridiopore layer without any interference of carotoids (as for example if it passed through yellow carotenoid containing xanthopores you would get a green frog) of the frog not from the sequestering of a blue carotenoid. You really can't increase blue pigmentation in a frog through supplementation (and in some amphibians (axolotls for example) the administration of certain items can actually cause the amphibian to convert different pigmentation cells to other pigmentations cells (for example the addition of allopurinol in axololts will cause the conversion of xanthopores to melanopores resulting in a dietary induced melanistic appearing axolotl). 

The amount of green is going to be dependent on the number of iridiopores in the frog as well as the amount of carotenoids and the lack of melanin in the skin. If there isn't enough reflective plates in the iridiopore then the color supplementation will not help. If there is to much melanin in the skin it won't help. If the color of the frog is due to a lack of yellow carotenoids then it should help..


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Received my 8ozs of Naturose today, and found it interesting that is recommends that it be refrigerated. Anyone know why?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Also is there any species people not recommend feeding it to? I think my current plan is to feed it to everything 1 time a week.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

is naturose only available through the one site mentioned in this thread?


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## rain- (Jul 28, 2006)

You can find it from Ebay too. I bought 4 oz from a seller named discusgeo2, Buy It Now price was 11.95 and shipping and handling inside US 6.95. He doesn't have any listed right now though.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I have found it other places, but only in larger quantities. So unless you need 1-5 pounds of it... This is the first place I have seen it in reasonable sizes.


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## Max Power (Jul 22, 2006)

kyle1745 said:


> Received my 8ozs of Naturose today, and found it interesting that is recommends that it be refrigerated. Anyone know why?


NatuRose is a microalgae so this is why it needs to be refrigerated. It's grown the same as spirulina, which also needs to be refrigerated.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It needs to be refrigerated to reduce the oxidation (rancidity) of the unsaturated fats contained in the algae. 

Ed


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Interesting... Any idea how long it will keep? As it does not have an expiration date on it.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Kyle, the key to maintaining shelf life for your Naturose is temperature, oxygen and moisture dependent. Since you are unlikely to be in a position to eliminate oxygen via nitrogen (or even better argon) inertion, controlling temperature and moisture are key. Provided you keep your Naturose sealed and refrigerated, I think a good rule of thumb is one year shelf life. More extended periods are possible if you have access to -20 or even better -70 degrees C.

Note: if you are refrigerating your Naturose, let it warm to room temp (several hours prior to opening) because otherwise moisture will condense and cause problems.

Bill


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Interesting Bill, thanks for the heads up. I guess i'll have to plan ahead when i'm going to dust with it!

Kyle, i've started using it once a week on both my intermedius and vents. I saw someone else was using it twice a week but i figured i'd start with once and see if that's enough to make a difference.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

blackjugnle might carry this. Even if they dont im sure Mike and Richard would like to hear about it if they havent already if the stuff really does work that well.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

So does this promote overall color enhancement, or just reds? What are peoples experiences?


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## Max Power (Jul 22, 2006)

It's only good for yellows, oranges, and red's. Blue's are alot harder to bring out, but I know spirulina works ok for fish... but not nearly as good as NatuRose is for reds.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ok, thats what I was thinking but I was not sure on yellows.

Also interesting is the comments here: 
http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/NatuRose-c64.html
Specifically this section:


> The largest percentage of the carotenoid fraction of NatuRose consists of astaxanthin, with lesser amounts of the pigments cantaxanthin, lutein, and beta-carotene. Carotenoids are generally associated with the flaming orange, lobster reds and striking yellows found in ornamental fish. Less widely known is that when carotenoids form complexes with lipids and proteins, they also express themselves as the blues, greens, purples and browns of the aquatic world.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Carotenoid protien complexes work for blues in some fish and many invertebrates but (to date in all studied anurans )blue color in anurans is the result of light being reflected off of iridiopores and not carotenoid complexes. 
See Amphibian Biology. The Integument (Heatwold, H., ed.), Vol. 1, pp. Surrey Beatty for a really good explination of how blue color occurs in amphibians and specifically in anurans. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

IME
regular use leads to enhanced reds in pums, galacs, tricolors ect.

yellow in GO, Regina, terribilis, intermedius...turn a bit orangy/red, as does the Orange in those frogs that start out orange.

Cant say I see much happening with imitators, truncs, variabilis...

I dont have much blue in my collection :? , so cant comment.

S


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Thanks, I had read your earlier post Ed, and was just not putting it all together. Im not sure I have a color problem really, but plan to use it to help the reds on my pums.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Shawn, something I've noticed with the truncs and thumbnails, their colors are much more metallic/iridescent, implying those colors are made up more of iridpphores rather than xanthophores. I've used peprika on truncatus with little influence on their colors.... there are variations in the degrees of yellow in individuals, but this didn't change with addition of peprika...

Kyle, most people don't think they have a color problem until they've see wild animals to compare


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Wouldn't some of the imports qualify? Id say my Iquitos Red Vents are as colorful as their parents.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Qualify as what? Wild caughts to compare to CB? In the case of the Pepper and INIBICO imports, no... neither of these farm raised groups of frogs a significant, or really any time, out in the wild eating the diet of a wild frog, so they do not accurately represent what an animal in the wild would be like with dietary influences...

And I also have to point out, that doesn't really matter anyways. If you read my above post, thumbnail coloration looks to be primarily iridiphore based, and not xanthophore based, so the CB, FR imports, and WCs should look basically the same in the case of a thumbnail like the Iquitos red-orange vents.

Now look more at some of the epipedobates... FR animals with diet dependent xanthophores come in during the period in time that they need to be supplemented for color (remember these are juvies coming in). I imagine if any of the cainarachi types come in in any degree, there will be some "ugly" looking frogs and some peeved buyers if they don't supplement their froggies...


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Lets get those epipedobates coming in... 

Thanks for the clarification as well.


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## salvoz (May 10, 2004)

So does anyone have any suggestions as to how often this stuff can be used...without any toxicity problems, if that's even a concern?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

It is my understanding you can dust with it 1-2 times a week without concern. I currently am trying it 1 time a week. So basically I dust with 1 day calcium, 1 day vitamins, and 1 day Naturose. Now I am pondering upping my calcium days, but have not made up my mind. Maybe just mix the three each day. 

Any thoughts on this?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

from earlier in this thread 
Here is a publication on ataxanthin showing that at least short term moderate levels are not a problem 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en...query_hl=4 

I was also unable to locate any studies demonstrating that astaxanthin was toxic. 

Ed


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## salvoz (May 10, 2004)

I have been using it for a couple weeks now and I can alredy see some color returning to some long faded bastis. Sure beats the paprika/color-enhancing fishfood I have been using.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

How are people adding this to tadpole diets? Just sprinkling it directly into the water?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

npaull said:


> How are people adding this to tadpole diets? Just sprinkling it directly into the water?


It's a very fine powder. You dust the FFs in it.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> It's a very fine powder. You dust the FFs in it.


I understand that for feeding adults/froglets, but what about for tadpoles?

Or are people dusting ffs and feeding them to the tadpoles?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are some flake fish foods that have a lot of astaxanthin in them.. I can't remember the name off the top of my head.. I'll have to look for my container.. 

Ed


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

npaull said:


> > It's a very fine powder. You dust the FFs in it.
> 
> 
> I understand that for feeding adults/froglets, but what about for tadpoles?
> ...


Do tadpoles really need to be color fed? I think there's plenty enough time once they morph.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've done some work, as well as some other frog keepers, that show a significant difference in froglet color coming out of the water (except froglets that go thru otogenic color change, they just have stronger coloration at time of change) when fed "color enhancing" fish flakes... this basically gives them a kcik start on getting to full potential. In some cases, such as in phyllobates vittatus, diet as tadpoles is *the* determining factor in their morphed out coloration.

Brine Shrimp Direct is the most popular source for naturose (as they sell it in small, frogger friendly sizes for decent prices) and now have a couple different fish foods that also contain naturose, and are a good way to get it into the tadpole diet... not to mention the different formulas that include naturoase can add a bit of variety to the tadpole diet as well.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

kyle1745 said:


> Wouldn't some of the imports qualify? Id say my Iquitos Red Vents are as colorful as their parents.


i will say some of the "farm raised" pumilio from a FL importer I received in early '06 came in unbelievably RED....sadly :shock: they faded with time.

strange for a "farm raised" animal :wink: to fade on a standard diet, even with all my color supplementing...

S


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "strange for a "farm raised" animal to fade on a standard diet, even with all my color supplementing... "endsnip

In all honestly, I have to give this a maybe... IF they were collecting local invertebrates for the food source (the capitalization is deliberate in case anyone was wondering) then the frogs could have been color supplemented with the local food sources... 

Ed


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## Android1313 (Dec 15, 2006)

Just ordered some, and I got some of the tropical medley flakes as well. :wink:


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## mack (May 17, 2005)

this seems to be a cheap source:

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... .cgi?foodo

mack


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## salvoz (May 10, 2004)

I know this has come up many times before in other threads, but to what extent can any of this supplementation, regardless of how diligent one may be about applying it, make up for a lack of natural light exposure on the frogs themselves?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The basic issue regarding the "making up for the lack of natural light" debate lies in the fact that in PDFs, it is believed that diet influences xanthophore coloration (which is the coloration under debate here, the other two pigments aren't really affected much in captivity) much more than "natural light" (what part of natural light? the wavelengths reflecting off them certain ways? or are you talking about UV type rays that influence coloration in some animals such as reptiles?). While it may be the case where UV rays may help coloration in some PDFs, it is not nearly to the degree seen when supplemented by sources of pigments such as naturose. Some pigments may be able to be produced by the frog with help from "natural light exposure", but the majority seems to be produced from a healthy diet with a wide variety of food sources... and thus a broad range of pigments the frog can collect and store. 

The case for natural light causing "better" coloration isn't even a strong one... a few people here and there have mentioned things, but looking at there husbandry, there could be other influences on the frogs' coloration.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I know this has come up many times before in other threads, but to what extent can any of this supplementation, regardless of how diligent one may be about applying it, make up for a lack of natural light exposure on the frogs themselves"endsnip

If you are referring to the conversion of provitamin D to D3 then none at all and it should not be used for that purpose. A source of D3 through a vitamin/mineral supplement should be used. 

If you are referring to increased pigmentation through exposure to UV then see below... 

Typically the pigment that is stimulated through exposure to UV lighting is melanin, not dietarily supplied carotenoids( although carotenoids do tend to show an absorbtion band in the UVA portion of the spectrum, they are not necessarily used for protection from it (like the red belly in Bombina that is due to carotenoids and pterins (hence the difference in color in unsupplemented cb Bombina). Vetebrates cannot synthesize carotenoids de novo (although some vertebrates can modify dietarily aquired ones) and can only get them from other sources (unlike pterins (in anurans) and melanins). 
Excess stimulation of the melanophores can increase the dark pigmentation of the animal and in some cases (such as nutritional supplementation with allopurinol) can cause conversion of iridiopores and chromatophores to melanophores in amphibians. The use of carotenoids like astaxanthin is stored in different chromatophores than the melanin and along with pterins can result in different hues in the amphibians. 


Ed


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## salvoz (May 10, 2004)

Thanks Ed and Corey. I agree that providing pigments/precursors in the animal's diet provides the best bang for the buck in terms of putting on color in captive PDFs. But what Im talking about is the difference between a well-colored frog and a truly knockout animal. Do we really know enough about the biochemistry involved here to suggest that natural sunlight (regardless of whether it just the UV portion or not) is not a factor in WC animals (e.g., pumilio) often superior color??


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Do we really know enough about the biochemistry involved here to suggest that natural sunlight (regardless of whether it just the UV portion or not) is not a factor in WC animals (e.g., pumilio) often superior color??"endsnip

It will take a little more time to determine if astaxanthin is only carotenoid needed for good reds (particuarly as people have really only been using it for less than two years now) or others are required but anecdotal reports are already having frogs color up including long-term captive pumilio that have over time washed out (we are talking specifically about reds here, yellows and greens would be more affected by other carotenoids like lutein and beta carotene). (and the colors in the frogs are also further modified through the combination of more than one carotenoid, pterins, and/or reflected light from iridiopores (reflected light from iridiopores is the source of blue color and carotenoid supplementation doesn't increase blues). 
The actual biochemistry of amphibian pigmentation is pretty well understood (I refer you to Amphibian Biology, the Integument by Heatwold for an full discussion) and has been well known since at least the 1970s. The thing that wasn't well understood (at least by hobbyists) is that the color of the supplement doesn't necessarily equate to the end pigment in the animal due to modifications of the carotenoid by binding to protiens (in the consumed food animal) (for example, the red color in cooked lobster shell is mainly due to astaxanthin but as it is bound to a protien you don't see the color until it is liberated by the heat). So even though the supplement was red (like paprika), it didn't mean that the frog would turn red however, astaxanthin is commonly used is many animals for reds and oranges (like salmon flesh..) and at this time appears to be working to increase red color. 
To date over 500 carotenoids have been discovered the majority of which have not been studied to any extent (most of the ones that have been studied are the ones that are readily converted to retinol (beta carotene, lutein..) 


As I mentioned in the previous post above, while carotenoids do have an absorbtion band in the UVA portion of the spectrum, it is melanin production that is stimulated through UV exposure (unless artifically enhanced say by the addition of allopurinol).. the frogs uptake and store carotenoids regardless of exposure to UV. As I mentioned abone, we are still determining carotenoids that provide the red color when fed to the frogs. 

Does this help? 

Ed


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## salvoz (May 10, 2004)

Ed, thank you for your thoughtful response; yes, that helps. I can definitely vouch for the effectiveness of astaxanthin. I have some cb bastis that are beginning to put on some real color only after a month of using Naturose. Previously, I threw the kitchen sink at them: paprika, a variety of fish flakes, sweet potato powder, etc. But before Naturose, nothing did much more than put a faint blush on them. 

Nevertheless, it just seems like we are having to work very very hard to put the deep reds back onto some of these animals, such as pumilio. I really wonder how much and what kind of carotenoids these wild animals are actually getting in their diet. I feel like we are overcompensating for something that may also necessary for maintaining these animals' color(other than dietary carotenoids), but is lacking in capativity. UV exposure is just one such thought that has resurfaced numerous times. 

While the biochemistry of amphibian pigmentation may be understood in a general sense, natural systems are usually much more complicated than they seem. Personally, I would be delighted if it were simply a matter of finding the right kind (or combination) of carotenoid, but that just seems too easy to me...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I think the biggest thing, and the one that makes the color problem obvious, is the captive diet. We are only vaguely replicating a diet... basically we are giving them wheat is sufficient enough for them to survive and breed in captivity. The variety of feeder critters that we give this frog is a pale reflection at best, and is based more on what is easiest, cheapest, and fastest for us, as keepers, to produce, then try and fill in the gaps with supplements. This is why animal fed field sweepings (which hugely increases the diversity of the diet in captive frogs) seem to be more robust, healthier, and yes, even more colorful to a degree than their FF only fed brethren. The differences in diet are also why CBs, when compared to WCs, literally in many cases, are only a pale example of the population... In some animals, the captive animals are larger and more robust, will live longer, and are able to outproduce wild counterparts... this has not been the case with PDFs. Actually, the frogs that seem to produce the biggest clutches seem to be WCs! I've definitely heard of WC tincs that produce huge, 20+ egg clutches... yet that isn't the norm for CB animals... CB animals can also lack size and color.

To me, it comes back to diet... at both frog and tadpole level. We are scraping by. I definitely think we could do better, which is why I always harp on variety.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Nevertheless, it just seems like we are having to work very very hard to put the deep reds back onto some of these animals, such as pumilio. I really wonder how much and what kind of carotenoids these wild animals are actually getting in their diet. I feel like we are overcompensating for something that may also necessary for maintaining these animals' color(other than dietary carotenoids), but is lacking in capativity. UV exposure is just one such thought that has resurfaced numerous times. "endsnip


I think to a large extent we still need to give it some more time to see how much the astaxanthin works to color up the frogs. One of the things that made me think about the use of astaxanthin was that it can be sequestered and does provide red pigment (like some bird plumage) and was readily available and non-toxic. If over time, the reds aren't intense enough we should look at other red carotenoids (maybe like adonirubin) that are found in some bird plumages (provided that they are readily available and the literature shows them to be non-toxic (unlike canthoxanthin). In the wild, the frogs are probably consuming the carotennoids at a fairly steady rate and possibly in relatively steady proportions. It is possible (I stress that this is a theoretical idea here and do not suggest reducing vitamin-mineral supplementation) that the quantity of beta-carotene in the diet (to provide provitamin A) may be also being sequestered thus reducing the intensity of the red (as it is a yellow and could be causing a paler red color to form). Typically insects are poor sources of not only vitamin A (as retinol) but carotenoids so I would strongly suspect that we are supplying these in greater quantities than the frogs would normally encounter in thier diet. (although the use of beta-carotene is safe as any excess is readily excreted). 


snip "While the biochemistry of amphibian pigmentation may be understood in a general sense, natural systems are usually much more complicated than they seem. Personally, I would be delighted if it were simply a matter of finding the right kind (or combination) of carotenoid, but that just seems too easy to me..."endsnip


I suspect that someone has analyzed the various carotenoid pigments in at least some of the anurans (otherwise we wouldn't have known that for example in Bombina the ventral pigments are due to pterins and carotenoids and the dorsal pigments are due to blue light being reflected from the iridiopores through yellow carotenoids and yellow pterins. 
While we may not know the actual carotenoids for the various populations of say, D. pumilio, I would suspect that the sequestering works the same as there is such a wide variety of carotenoids available (due to the different plants and algaes and their different metabolic products). These carotenoids tend to be taken up in the diets of various invertebrates which are then either consumed by other invertebrates or directly by the frogs. In at least some fish and birds, these animals modify certain carotenoids for pigmentation (for a bird example see http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_n8971206 ) 

Some more comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "The differences in diet are also why CBs, when compared to WCs, literally in many cases, are only a pale example of the population... In some animals, the captive animals are larger and more robust, will live longer, and are able to outproduce wild counterparts... this has not been the case with PDFs. Actually, the frogs that seem to produce the biggest clutches seem to be WCs"endsnip

Or to put a different interpretation on this... 

Sexual maturity in a number of anurans is determined by a combination of minimal body size, fat reserves and enviromental cues. I suspect that a major cofactor in the issues described above is due to early maturation of the frogs due to the conditions in which they are kept in addittion to the diet they are fed. 
Growth of the frogs significantly slows down once reproduction is triggered as the resources are diverted from growth to egg production. If the frogs are maturing at an earlier size (due to being kept in constant optimal conditions which trigger reproduction at an smaller size/younger age (as an example) then the clutch size will be smaller (as a lot of literature links egg and clutch size to age and body size of the female (as a general trend)) which places greater stress on the females which can shorten the life span (as can pulling clutches to trigger continual egg production....) by keeping the frogs under continual stress and preventing the frogs from sequestering more reserves between clutches. However keep in mind that unless someone has done the studies on the cb frogs and compared life span to wc frogs (I am assuming you are referring to maximal lifespan and not median lifespan Corey), this is an anecdotal interpretation.

Some other comments... this is also a hijack and maybe better off somewhere else.. 

Ed


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Maybe it is time to get one of the alternative feeders threads back from the depths. It would also be interesting if we could get some information from the wild on what is found in the frogs. Maybe there is a feeder we have not found yet. FFs and some others are rather easy, but are they ideal?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Kyle,

Its less the alternate feeders than the contents of those feeders... 

You would have to survey all of the insects for the carotenoids they contain (keeping in mind that we are over 500 at this time and are still finding new ones) and then find sources for them.. 

The closest we can come is adding the carotenoids to the supplements if using ffs or trying to feed it to the insect in the case of other inverts. 

When looking at the gut content studies (at least older ones) there maybe a built in bias as often the frogs were not sampled until they returned to camp which could result in soft bodied invertebrates being digested past the point of recognition... 

Ed


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

About a month ago, I ordered some Naturose from Brine shrimp direct, and being that I was out of cyclopeeze, and so was every vendor, I decided to try some of the flakes with Naturose in them.

I am trying the beefheart flake and the earthworm flake...

Vendors finally got another shipment of freeze dried cyclopeeze in, so I ordered some of that, and got it this week...

For everything I feed, that will eat fish food,(including tadpoles, feeder roaches, and woodlice) I notice a much better feeding response with the cyclopeeze than with the other flakes, even after grinding the other flakes to make them more managable.

Better feeding response makes it easier to maintain water quality as well.

I will be "mixing it up" with the BSD flakes, in attempt to provide a better range of cartenoids, and I would assume the beefheart flakes may provide some Pterins (sp?) as well? Using both cyclopeeze and naturose should give some different things that one has that the other doesn't, as the cyclops are an "animal" source, and Naturose is algae.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip " will be "mixing it up" with the BSD flakes, in attempt to provide a better range of cartenoids, and I would assume the beefheart flakes may provide some Pterins (sp?) as well? Using both cyclopeeze and naturose should give some different things that one has that the other doesn't, as the cyclops are an "animal" source, and Naturose is "endsnip

The pterins in the frogs are synthesized from purines in the diet of the frog... so they really can't be supplemented directly. It is possible that increasing the purine content of the diet may provide more building blocks for pterins but this is going to be limited by biofeedback mechanisms. 

Ed


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ed said:


> Hi Kyle,
> Its less the alternate feeders than the contents of those feeders...
> Ed


I agree I was thinking more of the lines we need to offer more variety, and find some more easy to culture foods. For example I personally do not find crickets to be easy.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sorry if I am beating a obvious point here. 

With respect to carotenoid supplementation, it doesn't matter what invertebrates you are using as long as you are not supplying the invertebrates with the carotenoids in the first place. (and feeding red invertebrates does not mean that the frogs will necessarily color up as it depends on how the color is developed in the invertebrate). This is why at this time, dusting is probably going to be the most efficient method. 

You could try offering the carotenoids to springtails, isopods and other invertebrates and then offer those to the frogs but the amount maybe insufficient to produce visible changes in the pigments of the frogs except over the course of weeks or months (or even longer). 
Depending on the species tapoles probably begin sequestering the carotenoids and then the process of aquiring and sequestering continues as the froglets grow (which I suspect is much slower in the wild than in captivity) allowing for bioaccumulation of the pigments. 
Because beta-carotene is non-toxic and excess can be excreted readily, it is very possible that the amount of beta carotene in the diet is interfering with the process of pigmentation as it is also absorbed and sequestered. There has been very little in the way of studies done on the interaction of the various carotenoids and whether or not they affect each other's uptake (and even less done on competition for sequestering as amphibian pigment that I can find). 

Ed


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