# D. tinctorius inmobile



## Sathis (Jul 12, 2020)

Hi,
I have been a frog keeper for quite some time now but had this issue for the first time.
I found my semiadult (approx. 8 mo) tumucumaque tinc two days ago just lying hiding in my viv. His tankmates are doing just fine and so he was 3 days ago, eating well, growing and he seemed to be a pretty happy frog. We observed him for 2 hours and decided it was time to move him out to quarantine tank. He has some serious movement problems, keeps still most of the time, when trying to move he is tilted to the left, possibly left front leg problem. I saw him trying to eat so we offered him a small amount of ff with a fruit to keep them in one spot for him.
Other than the mobility problem he looks just right. The viv is pretty large (90x60x120cm), good ventilation, automatic misting and fogging (misting 4 or 6 times a day and fogger goes on every 2 hrs for 15 minutes). I feed ff, dusted with dendrocare, repashy vitamin A every two to four weeks. 
Is there anything we can do for him to help? The past two days changed nothing whatsoever in his condition..


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Post some detailed photo's of your tank. 

My guess is part of your problem is giving it too much vitA, since dendrocare already is heavy on the vitA. I recommend cutting the dendrocare and switch to Repashy Cal+
The other guess is that your tank is waaay too wet. The frogs hide in the dry areas.


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## Sathis (Jul 12, 2020)

Sure will cut the vit A. The viv does not seem to be too wet, it has plenty of airflow, the leaves dry out between each fogging/misting cycles. I post a link to my Instagram for viv picture.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCiv2Efp-Wd/?igshid=1369q4wbv80ux

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCi0jVIJpNV/?igshid=109x5080w5ln1


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

don't cut the vit A, cut the dendrocare..

It's hard to tell from the photo's. But your misting and fogging seems to be on the high end..


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Misting every couple hours and then hours of fogging suggests way too much moisture. Also, there is really no leaf litter at all in the viv, so the frogs cannot choose their humidity/moisture levels. I would add lots of leaf litter.

Also agree with @Tijl on the vitamin A situation.


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## Sathis (Jul 12, 2020)

Of course I meant switching Dendrocare to pure cal+d3 with no further additives.
The leaves I need to add (most decomposed) - will do today.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Sathis said:


> Of course I meant switching Dendrocare to pure cal+d3 with no further additives.


No. You are misunderstanding.

Tijl recommended a product called "Repashy Calcium Plus". I think this a good recommendation.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

So there is no misunderstanding on what we are trying to say about supplements.
Drop all supplements immediately, and switch to ONLY one supplement. Specifically, Repashy Calcium Plus. 
NOT repashy calcium plus LoD
NOT repashy calcium plus Hyd

Simply Repashy Calcium Plus. I choose it, even if for no other reason than it's made right here in America. That means no international shipping and distribution routes. That means it's in your hands quicker, and fresher. That's actually extremely important, because vitamin powders age worse, and faster, than human vitamin pills.
Repashy Calcium Plus is a very well designed, stand alone, supplement. 

You have a river pouring through your viv. Misting 4 to 6 times a day?? I'm sorry to inform you, you are reading information over a decade old. I'm not trying to shame you, but rather, simply passing on what I've learned. Misting 4 to 6 times a day is way too much. When you add in that you fog every 2 hours, I'm sorry, that's a flood. The rainforests do not sit at 90% humidity. Aim for an average of more like 70%. I'm currently misting one long cycle in the morning. That's it. Plus, I have vents below and above my doors. Plus, I have an internal circulation fan.
If you are misting 4 to 6 times a day, and fogging every 2 hours, you may will do better with fish. (sorry, a little comedy...very little) Seriously though, even if your top were wide open, with only a screen, that's too much humidity and moisture. Not a little too much. Waaaayyy to much. 
If you have a newly planted cutting or two, that seem to need a bit more, those specific cuttings can be hand misted an extra time or two per day.

Too much moisture and humidity is an invitation for skin and respiratory, bacterial infections.

90% is dead. It died over a decade ago. Join us 70%ers, and see success like never before!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tijl said:


> My guess is part of your problem is giving it too much vitA, since dendrocare already is heavy on the vitA. I recommend cutting the dendrocare and switch to Repashy Cal+


So, I just checked, and Dendrocare has about the same amount of Vit A as Calcium Plus.

Dendrocare: 450,000 IU Vit A per kilogram

Calcium Plus: 200,000 IU Vit A per pound (=440,000 IU per kilogram)

I'm not sure what to make of this, though, since Dendrocare has far more D3 and Vit E. 

Dendrocare: 120,000 IU D3 per kilogram
10,200 IU Vit E per kilogram

Calcium Plus: 20,000 IU D3 per pound (=44,000 IU per kilogram)
2,000 IU Vit E per pound (=4,400 IU per kilogram)

I notice that Dendrocare seems to stick to FFs much less well than does Calcium Plus; perhaps this fact (if it is one) is figured in to the amounts of each vitamin that are in the product. 

I still stand behind the recommendation to supplement with only Calcium Plus, and not supplement extra Vitamin A to non-breeding animals. 

https://www.dendrocare.com/en/dendrocare-product-information.html
https://www.store.repashy.com/calcium-plus-4-oz-bag.html


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I misread the Cal+ it seems. I've read 200000 /kg instead of pound. That's double the difference 😄

Great catch! 

Also, @ the OP : don't forget to refrigerate your supplements and replace your supplements every 6 months.


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## Sathis (Jul 12, 2020)

Thank you everyone for the input.
So to start with I am looking for Repashy Calcium Plus (which is a bit of a challenge since in Poland there is a ton different supplements available.. other than this one 😉 ). But will get it.
I will also cut on the misting as you suggest (although I don't have a pool of water or a stream it this tank). I came back to the hobby after 10 years so I might have a bit of an outdated idea on how to run rainforest vivs 😉 the learning never ends I see 🙂

As to the frog who is my number 1 patient - no change whatsoever. Nothing. No improvement, not getting worse (meaning still critical). I might however risk a diagnosis that his main issue is some kind of an arm injury. Although in human world a broken or twisted arm won't necessarily cause much more than some healing and recovery, my best guess it that with a tiny creature like a tinc it won't be this easy. If my observation proves true we might have to consider culling the little one 😞 

Still I greatly appreciate all your impact - this will help me improve the conditions for my froggies.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Best of luck and keep us up to date!


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## Sathis (Jul 12, 2020)

No change today either. He is almost lifeless. We only see him move from time to time, go in a hut, out. Then move around some more.. we are loosing hope..


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## Sathis (Jul 12, 2020)

Today we managed to inspect the frog some more as he moved some closer to the front of my quarantine tank.
It seems his left palm is dislocated so there must have been some kind of a trauma involved. Possibly he fell of somewhere high or was just unlucky. Anyways I do not think there is anything that can be done at this point to help him and it seems he is in severe pain. I am considering euthanasia just now... 😞


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Sathis said:


> Today we managed to inspect the frog some more as he moved some closer to the front of my quarantine tank.
> It seems his left palm is dislocated so there must have been some kind of a trauma involved. Possibly he fell of somewhere high or was just unlucky. Anyways I do not think there is anything that can be done at this point to help him and it seems he is in severe pain. I am considering euthanasia just now... 😞


Why not take it to a specialised vet to see if it can be fixed? I've seen a couple of posts around here with frogs that had dilocated joints that healed up just fine.

Seems a bit early to be jumping to euthanasia here.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Sathis said:


> Today we managed to inspect the frog some more as he moved some closer to the front of my quarantine tank.
> It seems his left palm is dislocated so there must have been some kind of a trauma involved. Possibly he fell of somewhere high or was just unlucky. Anyways I do not think there is anything that can be done at this point to help him and it seems he is in severe pain. I am considering euthanasia just now... 😞


Just a thought, healthy frogs can fall from ridiculously high perches and suffer no trauma/injuries. They are literally built for it. I know it's not impossible, but just to put it in perspective I've kept hundreds and hundreds of frogs over the last 15 years and I've only ever seen two breaks. One of those cases I caused by clipping a frogs toe in a deli cup when I was packaging him for shipping. The other was bone disease related to old supplements. This was a long time ago and the supplements of the parents had gotten old. All in the clutch had spindly leg syndrome except one. His wrist broke one day.

I agree with the recommendation of Repashy.


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## Sathis (Jul 12, 2020)

We switched to Repashy as suggested. The frog is still there. 
Taking it to the vet is an option but still would require an 1.5hr trip to the closest vet who deals with amphibians. Not a biggie to me but it means the frog would be at least 4 hours total in transport. Plus the fracture is just an option here... especially that we saw him sitting in his regular way (with both front legs looking fine and no body tilt) so I definitely take it as a sign of recovery. A slow recovery, yet still after a few days of just lying, seeing him sitting gave us some hope.
I have been trying to buy calcium gluconate in my local pharmacy and they claimed it would be available today so we will get it and prepare a 2% solution to drop on his back. Furthermore we are preparing to give him an isotonic bath today (however we think he is still eating some ff). Keep your fingers crossed. Will keep you updated.


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## Sathis (Jul 12, 2020)

I am sad to inform that out frog passed two days ago. He was doing much better the previous days so we even started thinking of taking him out of the hospital to a more naturalistic planted enclosure. But then we found him dead. He was looking just normal, not skinny, no sign of sickness.. except for the mere fact he was dead 😞


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

That sad.. sorry for the loss


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Sorry to hear that. :-(


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## najiro (May 29, 2014)

Hi,

I think im having the same problem with guess what local of tinctorius. Tumucumaque. Same problems. 

First crouched in a high point of the terrarium for two days, but going down to eat. then unable to catch flies due to a progressive lack of motor skills, he walks like a fat cartoon character, rotates on himself, jumps erratically... He has finally stopped trying to eat. It seems to be manifesting bloated also. I have bathed it in a ringers type solution for an hour. The idea was to leave it two, but at a certain moment (I have been watching it all the time) it has lain on top stretching as if dying. I quickly opened the treatment tank and she has rejoined herself and gone back into the terrarium. 

it is swollen and flaccid at the same time. below the hind legs you can see how the "meat" of the belly peeks out. I left this hobby a few years ago due to the death of an azureus trio and I fear that I will have to relive the experience on my first attempt to return. I am deeply affected.

Interestingly, I have also been watering more than usual out of concern that the exhaust fan I am using to deal with the heat wave is drying out the terrarium too much. I think I'm going to try to reduce it drastically. 

Does anyone know if there has been a case similar to this with a different result or treatment? 

A greeting and thanks in advance


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Cut and paste these questions into a reply here, and fill in the answers. Be very detailed, especially on the supplementation product and routine.


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## najiro (May 29, 2014)

Hi Socratic Monologue,

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ? Were they WC (wild collected) or CB (captive bred)?

Dendrobates tinctorius tumucumaque. I have had them for 5 months and they were 5 or 6 months old when I bought them from Terribilis at the Barcelona Expoterra. They are bred in captivity.

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?

I keep them at a temperature of 26-27 degrees Celsius, when the heat wave has been very tight they have been able to rise to a maximum of 29 and when it has rained these weeks and it has cooled they have dropped to 25 degrees at most. The most difficult thing has been to get that temperature change from day to night, basically impossible during the strong days of the heat wave. I manage to get down to these temperatures with a computer exhaust fan. No additional heating.


3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?

I use a full spectrum led light for aquariums. The plants grow like crazy and I have not found that it adds any temperature to the vivarium.








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4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?

I use mineral water bottles with a rain system with two nozzles. At first I watered twice a day for 15 seconds, when the lights in the terrarium came on and when they went out. But I realized that the extractor dried out the terrarium very quickly and I started watering 4 or 5 times a day, depending on when the leaves of the plants were completely dry. Attached bottle mineralization.

Type Quantity
Dry residue 318 mg/l
Bicarbonates 252.2 mg/l
Sulfates 43 mg/l
Chlorides 17.2 mg/l
Calcium 53.8mg/l
Magnesium 14.3mg/l
Potassium 2.6mg/l
Sodium 41.3mg/l
Silicon 15.5mg/l
Fluoride 0.8 mg/l
Nitrates 1.6mg/l


5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).

I use an European terrarium adapted for dendrobates with front and top ventilation, drainage ramp with outlet, etc.




















6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?

I feed them with fruit flies and springtails, every two days, always dusting with the calcium product every time and ussing the rephasy and the multivitamins in the photo once a month.





























7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?

Other two tumucumaque.

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?

As I mentioned above, it began by staying in a raised part of the terrarium in a position with its back sunken. She went down to eat and walked in the strange way. Like a fat cartoon. These movements have been increasing until she basically finds it difficult to lean on one side and is unable to catch the flies. Finally she doesn't even try anymore, she stays in a corner watching how the flies pass over her :_(










9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?

I used a mosquito-killing product of this type in the room for a long time, a couple of hours at night and quite far from the terrarium, but I haven't turned it on for weeks...









10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.










11 -

Some person recommended that I give him a ringer solution bath, but after searching a lot in pharmacies for the less common ingredients and the solution prepared in stores, the closest thing I found to the elements that the solution contains was the following:











the content:
Water, Dextrose, Potassium Chloride, Magnesium Chloride, Calcium Chloride, Glycerin, Sodium Acetate, Sodium Propionate, Potassium Sorbate, Vitamin D3 Supplement.

The person at the store (different from where they sold me the animals) told me that many people with frogs bought it from them and that they were doing great.

After giving him a one-hour bath of these diluted drops as indicated by the product, reaching the height of his belly, the frog made a strange movement falling face up and stretching his legs. I reacted quickly and took her out of the solution and she rejoined normally and went back into her terrarium.

Last night I could see her sleeping in one of the laying houses, apparently the same as the previous days, very shrunken and slightly swollen. She worries me that on top of being sick from something else, I could have screwed her with this liquid.

I am a person who reacts very badly to diseases in animals, I am unable to sit down and think propperly with my head, I admit it, and I only look for a quick and miraculous way to save them, this being sometimes worst the remedy than the diseases. I admit it and honestly it embarrasses me.

Hopefully I haven't done anything drastic and I can save her.

A greeting and thanks in advance.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

The situation has no connection to the morph of the frog (which is illegal to own here in the US; this discussion is still in public view only because the health needs are important to discuss).

The Raid mosquito diffuser contains and dispenses Transfluthrin, a synthetic pyrethroid insecticide. It should not be used around frogs. I don't think this is the root cause of the problem, though.

The mineral water you're using (thanks for the analysis, that's very helpful) is exceedingly hard, which is a pretty non-natural water source for darts. I also wouldn't recommend water with fluoride in it if there is any other option available (like RO -- reverse osmosis water) since fluoride is linked to problems in amphibian development, including those involving calcium metabolism (a bit more on that here).

This may be relevant, since the supplement protocol you're using is inadequate. Plain calcium ('ExoTerra Calcium') cannot be absorbed/metabolized without a concurrent Vitamin D3 source. That plain calcium would have to be used 1:1 with the multivitamin ('ExoTerra Multivitamin') in order to supply sufficient Vitamin D (this is noted on the label directions). But, the multivitamin has only beta carotene as a Vitamin A source, which darts cannot use (they need Vitamin A as retinol). These two products are inadequate for supplementing the diet of any insectivores. 

The Repashy Calcium Plus is a suitable supplement for darts and it should be dusted on every prey item at every feeding. There is more info on supplements here if you'd like to know a little more.

It pretty clearly sounds like the frog has a Vitamin A deficiency; this causes the 'lack of motor skills' regarding feeding (the tongue basically ceases to work). It also sounds like it has a calcium deficiency (caused by a lack of Vitamin D that is necessary for the frog to be able to metabolize the calcium in the diet); this could manifest as a sunken back, inability to walk, and bloated look in the limbs.

Switching over to using only the Repashy Calcium Plus will perhaps prevent the other frogs in the viv from going down the same path. It may be beneficial to use 'Repashy Vitamin A' instead of the Calcium Plus a couple times a month at least for the next few months, as I don't know that depleted Vitamin A stores will be replenished by the maintenance level of Vit A in Calcium Plus alone. 

It doesn't sound good for the frog with the symptoms; if it isn't eating there is not much to be done. At any rate, a qualified veterinarian would be much better placed to diagnose and judge whether it would be better to try to treat it or euthanize. 

I hope this helps, and I'm sorry for your situation.


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## najiro (May 29, 2014)

First let me thank you enormously for the effort you have put into the explanation. 

I am going to change everything that I am doing wrong and I hope that none of the other two falls into the same.

On the other hand, you must forgive me, because I wrote the message at work remembering the vitamins by heart, and I see that it was not correct. The rephasy that I have and that I have given them once a month is Rephasy Vitamin A Plus, the one with the yellow and black dart in the front.

Since he can't eat, is there a way to give him what the dart needs by dripping on his back or something? 

cheers and thank you again


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

najiro said:


> Since he can't eat, is there a way to give him what the dart needs by dripping on his back or something?


Possibly, but that's not experience or knowledge (products, dosing) that I have at hand. I had this possibility in mind when I mentioned a veterinarian. 



najiro said:


> On the other hand, you must forgive me, because I wrote the message at work remembering the vitamins by heart, and I see that it was not correct. The rephasy that I have and that I have given them once a month is Rephasy Vitamin A Plus, the one with the yellow and black dart in the front.


This updated info suggests that the frog's issues are due more to simple calcium deficiency due to lack of Vitamin D than to Vitamin A deficiency, though the latter still may be playing some role. That doesn't change any of the advice I gave above, but is good to know.


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## najiro (May 29, 2014)

the problem is beginning to affect the other two frogs. if you look at the hind leg, it is losing its shape. At the moment it doesn't affect their way of walking because they support themselves by making force with their arms, but I'm afraid it's the same process that the first one went through. they step with their hands pointing inwards, loose and bent.

I have not come to the conclusion of sacrificing the first because he continues to show interest in living, although he cannot eat, he was quite fat and has barely lost weight, he moves around the terrarium as best he can, he gets in the shade, he goes into the cave when it's time to sleep...

It doesn't look like an animal that has lost its interest in living.

Does this photo tell you something?

I would like to be able to pay for a vet but the reality is that here where I live they are really expensive and I find myself in a really precarious financial situation.

To give you an idea, I have been a couple of days without being able to buy food for myself because I bought them the exo terra liquid and a new bottle of flies because it occurred to me that maybe I could catch the larvae.

It is being a real nightmare to live this with my hands tied.

a greeting


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Hello,

To me it looks to be bone issues due to lack of calcium uptake, likely due to the supplements you have been using.

The other frog in the pictures' front legs look very thin.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I agree with @fishingguy12345 .

The other two _may_ improve with switching them over to dusting their prey with Repashy Calcium Plus immediately. If they're still eating well, I think there's a chance they could improve with the proper prey supplement if it is started immediately.

The financial situation is an unfortunate one, and I'm sorry that you find yourself dealing with it for the reasons at hand and also for your own well being. Vet care can be expensive (for very understandable reasons), and many keepers don't anticipate the need for the necessity of vet care at some point in the future (though they should). 

One option to consider is that there may be a reptile/amphibian rescue organization in your area that could take the frogs in and give them the care they need. Local herpetology/herpetoculture clubs could give more information on whether there is one near you, or perhaps some internet research could provide some leads. Perhaps a local vet could suggest some similar options if you call them and explain the medical and financial situation. Just an idea, and I hope you take it in the helpful spirit in which it is given.


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