# Eggs going bad, sometimes



## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

So I'm going to bring up an interesting observation that I don't understand. Maybe someone can help, maybe not. I have a pair of Dendrobates truncatus in a smallish tank (probably between 15-20 gallons) and they are doing very well. The breed regularly and most of the eggs go bad. They lay in a little porcelain cup, the eggs start to develop and then mold over. One time when the cup had moldy eggs in it they laid on a leaf and I put a small glass petri dish under the leaf to catch the tadpoles when they hatched. They did hatch and fell into the petri dish and I put them in another tank to grow up. I left the little petri dish in their tank and they've laid in it and the eggs are developing fine. So what would cause the eggs to go bad in a porcelain cup and not in glass. That's my question. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

any possibility that the cup itself was not completely sterile?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Chuck,

My first thoughts were that the glaze on the porcelain is leaching lead and or zinc. The leaching of the these metals can result in toxicity to the embryos as they can disrupt development. If the pH of the water getting into the dish is acidic then it can also increase the concentration of the liberated metals. 
I should also note that the concentration of the released metal ions would increase over time which would support the eggs beginning to develop and then dying. 

The leaching of metals from porcelain is fairly well known and is the subject of a number of health department warnings see for example https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/sites/default/files/legacy/lead/doc/Porcelain and Ceramic2.pdf 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Would it be wise to no longer use a porcelain mortar and pestle or is it just an issue when moisture is introduced?


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

About five years ago I had a group of Malagasy Glittering Frogs ( Mantidactylus lugubris ) given to me. I had them in a 15 gallon with a few inches of water and some overturned handmade pottery/ coffee cups. I changed the water a few times, and thought it was a decent temporary/quarantine container. However, only a week or two later I discovered all the frogs dead overnight. I've always wondered if I killed them with that damn pottery. Thanks,JVK


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Maybe the porcelain surface is somehow friendlier to nasties that attack the eggs?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Aldross said:


> Would it be wise to no longer use a porcelain mortar and pestle or is it just an issue when moisture is introduced?


It depends on the mortar and pestle. If it is an old one, or one "borrowed" from a chem lab or made overseas then you may want to test for lead. If your just using it for dry ingredients then its probably fine. If your using it for wet materials then you may want to get one of the basic tests. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Maybe the porcelain surface is somehow friendlier to nasties that attack the eggs?


Hi Dave,

I think that is going to be an unlikely case as you would have to consider the biofilm and its likely that there won't be that great of a variation. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I think that is going to be an unlikely case as you would have to consider the biofilm and its likely that there won't be that great of a variation.
> 
> ...


Good point .

Perhaps a difference in how well established the biofilm was on each item? ...If the porcelain was washed after the moldy eggs were found, and the glass was not maybe that one or a few random episodes of bad luck led to increased washing which could throw off the biofilm and building on that could have essentially built on thebad luck to create/perpetuate a perceived pattern of failure? Different cleaning products (if any used) might be a variable too.

Could be just semi random chance that it has played out this way so far... kinda like roulette, just because it hit red 7 times in a row that doesn't mean it has any more chance on the 8th spin to finally hit black: but sure feels like it 

What is our sample size? ...I'm assuming since this is CP we are talking about these frogs have laid hundreds if not thousands of times by now! ..And if they won't produce viable offspring for Chuck they are probably just defective


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

DD--are we getting another Ed/DD reference material/scientific discussion or are you just poking with your humor (which can be pretty interesting....)?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Good point .
> 
> Perhaps a difference in how well established the biofilm was on each item? ...If the porcelain was washed after the moldy eggs were found, and the glass was not maybe that one or a few random episodes of bad luck led to increased washing which could throw off the biofilm and building on that could have essentially built on thebad luck to create/perpetuate a perceived pattern of failure? Different cleaning products (if any used) might be a variable too.
> 
> ...


I'm still going with Occam's Razor here with the most likely issue being metal ion leachage from the glaze. Both lead and zinc are toxic to amphibians (and fish). Porcelain glazes that are fired at a lower temperature can be a significant source of these ions when kept moist or wet. 

With respect to the biofilm, the bacteria for it would be unlikely to constitute a major change in the same location and enclosure. Surfactants left over from washing with a dish soap would be a short-term irritant or issue but bacteria tend to be able neutralize them fairly quickly (in a few days) by breaking them down as a food source. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

darn it Ed.....

How Occam's Razor Works - HowStuffWorks
science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/scientific.../occams-razor.htm
This line of reasoning is called Occam's razor. It's used in a wide variety of ways throughout the world as a means to slice through a problem or situation and .


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Judy S said:


> darn it Ed.....
> 
> How Occam's Razor Works - HowStuffWorks
> science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/scientific.../occams-razor.htm
> This line of reasoning is called Occam's razor. It's used in a wide variety of ways throughout the world as a means to slice through a problem or situation and .


Oh snap, Judy with the reference!  I was going to say WE were slipping Ed, but I should have known better. On review I see you were as quick with the reference as ever... So just me that's slipping.  

I blame it on the 1997 bottle of orange fanta the Chinese place sold me tonight with my twice cooked pork and cho cho beef. I think I got botulism in the brain, and/or the mad cow 




Judy S said:


> DD--are we getting another Ed/DD reference material/scientific discussion or are you just poking with your humor (which can be pretty interesting....)?


Nah, I was just spitballing and complimenting Chuck, plus Ed would school my ass in a reference war  Occam's/Ed's works for me, but just to be sure have we ruled out Aliens? ...They're sneaky. 

What is this "humor" you speak of? ...Is it edible?


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## VelvetDragon (Feb 13, 2010)

Professional ceramic artist here who makes ceramic pieces specifically for fish, reptiles, and amphibians. There's a misunderstanding in the definition of porcelain here. 

Porcelain is always high-fired and vitrified (a process that turns it non-porous and glasslike). Earthenware can be a form of clay that is white, like porcelain, but is lowfire.

Porcelain refers specifically to the clay body; i.e. it is made primarily of the mineral kaolin. 

Different glazes are applied over it. It is the chemical composition of the glaze which determines how susceptible it is to leaching, even more than the temperature it is fired at. Silica, for example, provides hardness, important for promoting resistance to acids and durability. Fluxes promote melting, and need to be balanced to ensure the glaze stays on the pot during firing. Glaze fit to the clay (and whether they melt at the same temperature) determine how it bonds and ensure that there are no glaze flaws (such as shivering and falling off, or crawling and peeling away from itself, or crazing and cracking). All of these things are important in creating a safe glaze. Glazes such as crystalline glazes, raku glazes, lustres, etc. are not food safe.

Technically, vitrified clay pieces (high fire) are arguably food safe as long as they don't have horribly deep texture (which can trap bacteria). They are non-porous in and of themselves, you can sterilize them by boiling, autoclaving, baking in the oven, microwaving, etc. However, they are relatively rough and an uncomfortable texture for most people.

In addition, I make sure that all my animal-safe glazes are copper-free. This is important for amphibian and invertebrate safe glazes. And of course all food safe glazes are lead-free or high-fired (generally only old glazes contain things like risky low-fire lead and uranium; you can still buy bright orange uranium plates on ebay and the like).

To sum up: Just make sure the ceramics you're buying say "lead-free" or "food-safe" and if you're me, "copper-free" too because you're paranoid about your pets. Or, y'know, become a ceramic artist like me and make it yourself so you control all ingredients of your clay and glaze.  But really all commercial potteries these days in the US are thoroughly monitored to make sure that they are not leaching lead.


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## thumbnail (Sep 18, 2005)

other then issues with the cup how about supplementation? Which ones are you using and how frequently? I do share a concern about the cup, but other factors could be at play.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

thumbnail said:


> other then issues with the cup how about supplementation? Which ones are you using and how frequently? I do share a concern about the cup, but other factors could be at play.



Like Aliens... 

I just saw an ep of the X-files where a meteorite exploded, causing a yellow rain infecting migrant farm workers with an alien enzyme that caused such rapid fungal growth that common fungi could stop a man dead in his tracks. These men were mutated by the enzyme and became... Chupacabra!

*…Sounds plausible, and suspiciously like Chuck's egg situation.*

Has there been any unusual weather phenomenon? Lights in the sky? Grey monsters sighted? Unmarked government helicopters? Strange men in black?...Or goats sucked in the area recently?

Spoiler Alert:
The Chupacabra escaped, so we could be looking at a serious threat to the hobby! ...At the very least we should stock up on hand sanitizer and keep our goats indoors.

The truth is out there... Trust no one.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

A little clarification first. I've had five clutches in the porcelain - all of which have gone bad. I had one laid on a leaf that fell into a glass dish and the tadpoles are doing fine. I've had one other clutches in the glass dish - one of the eggs is fine, developing properly, while the other has a gray yoke which is larger than it should be - that one will go bad. The porcelain contains were given to me by a friend who I believe used them in his frog tanks. However I'm not certain - haven't been over to his house in well over a year. I rinse all my egg containers with cool tap water after either the eggs go bad or are moved to the tadpoles container. Its my common practice for the past 30 years and has worked fine over that time. 

Usually getting bad eggs the first season is no big deal - it happens and is usually fixed by itself by the second breeding season. However this a little unusual with every clutch going bad in the porcelain, but not on the leaf. Given these observations I'm inclined to think something is leaching out of the porcelain and spoiling the eggs. At least thats my current hypothesis until observations prove it wrong. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> darn it Ed.....
> 
> How Occam's Razor Works - HowStuffWorks
> science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/scientific.../occams-razor.htm
> This line of reasoning is called Occam's razor. It's used in a wide variety of ways throughout the world as a means to slice through a problem or situation and .


Just chalk it up to my being lazy. I find it easier to use Occam's razor to get the idea across than to use lex parsimoniae 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Just chalk it up to my being lazy. I find it easier to use Occam's razor to get the idea across than to use lex parsimoniae
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Well Ed at almost 18,000 useful posts (I consider all yours useful)... I guess we'll let you slide on the Latin... *this time*, (Besides technically, you did just use it)


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

ED! Now you're just showing off.....lol

I checked it out with: The Sceptical Prophet


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