# Feeding and Supplementing



## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

I'm just wondering how the majority of froggers out there are feeding and supplementing, I personally feed and supplement every day, is this too much?am I overdozing my PDFs and do I need to feed everyday? cause all my Azureus eggs are bad. if I decide to replace one animal, which one? I have no clue which one is the problem child, I used to have 2 females but once they started laying, I traded my extra female. (the moral of this story is always keep your extra PDFs until you get some good eggs) by the way anyone want to buy a pair of sterile Azureus? lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dave,

Did you ever start dusting with a human grade dry vitamin A supplement? 

Ed


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## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Dave,
> 
> Did you ever start dusting with a human grade dry vitamin A supplement?
> 
> Ed


Not yet Ed, I've looked for it at Walgreens and Kmart and they only have soft gel 8000 IU, also I have tried to PM you today and for some reason the PM doesn't go through so I have emailed you. hope you get that. on the dry vitamin A 25000 IU, I'll have to find a vitamin shop or a GNC store at the mall.

I've also PMed Kyle about my PM issue.

Thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I responded to your e-mail but your pms did go through.. 

Ed


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## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

Ed, just recieved the Dry Vitamin A today from the Viamin Shoppe, do I just supplement with just the vitamin A alone or do I mix it with the Herptivite and Rep-Cal or just the herptivite? and how often should I use the Dry Vitamin A?

Thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Dave,

Don't mix it with anything. If you have a morter and pestle handy, you may want to regrind it to get it to stick better.. but dosing should not be more frequently than once a week. I've had good success in reversing issues with D. ebracattus and R. ventrimaculatus by simply using it twice a month for three months, in your case you may want to at least twice and maybe more. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

My human grade vitamin A did not stick well until I reground it. If you don't have a morter and pestle you can try a spoon and a plastic/nylon cutting board.


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## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

Ok will do, now I just recieved a pair of R. ventrimaculatus yesterday and as you can see in my signature I have more darts to feed, as I usually feed all at the same time, will it be ok to supplement them all with Dry vitamin A or just the Azureus pair that I'm having the egg issue?

Thanks Guys 
You advise is always appreciated


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

A bit more expensive but worth it for convenience you could get one of these to grind pills.

VitaCarry Handheld Power Pill Grinder | The Perfect Pill Box


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Dave,

I used to use the Rep-cal and herptivite and had problems with eggs. I have been using Allen Repashy's Calcium Plus and Superpig supplements and things have improved greatly. I will be adding the Vitamin A as Ed has recommended as well.

Good luck, Richard.


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## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I used to use the Rep-cal and herptivite and had problems with eggs. I have been using Allen Repashy's Calcium Plus and Superpig supplements and things have improved greatly. I will be adding the Vitamin A as Ed has recommended as well.
> 
> Good luck, Richard.


Hi Richard, I was also using Repashy Calcium plus ICB and I'll still use, I just got to figure out what my routine is going to be, but my #1 concern is getting the Azureus's Vitamin A levels within normal limits. what is Superpig? I have heard of it, but from the name of it I just though of them as steroids for frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The super pig is another formulation with a higher concentration of the carotenoids. 


Ed


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## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

ok I regrinded the vitamin A , are the FF suppose to still climb very quickly up the side of the feed cup, or did I not regrind it enough? because when I dust with herptivite and rep-cal they can't climb very well or not at all.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The other supplements contain superfine particles that stick to the sides of the dusting cup which makes it difficult for the flies to climb out. You would have to really work the dry vitamin A to replicate this effect. If you are losing flies, dust the cup with a straight calcium carbonate dust (no vitamins in it) and then pour out any extra, there will be a small residual on the sides that will keep the flies from climbing out while you dust them with the vitamin A. 

Ed


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Hi Dave, 
I've been working on an article that I will post on DB. Elements cover this important topic.

This is a portion of the info.


*
FEEDING TIME


DUSTING THE FLIES BEFORE FEEDING FROGS​*​
Dusting the flies before you feed them to your frogs is important for the long-term health of your frogs and their offspring. I dust at every feeding and rotate my dusting powders at each feeding. At one feeding I will dust with multivitamins, at the next the flies are dusted with a calcium / vitamin D3 mix, then lastly I dust is with Astaxanthin. 



*MAKING YOUR OWN DUSTING POWDERS*
Many folks use a product like Herptivite, Repashy Calcium, and Superpig. These are good products, but if you are on a tight budget you can make your own. I make most of my dusting powders from over the counter products. I actually use a coffee grinder to grind up multivitamin tablets. Coffee grinders can purchased for $8.00 to $12.00 at Walmart, Bi-Mart, etc. I purchased my grinder used much cheaper from the Salvation Army. I paid about $4.00. That’s half to a quarter of the price of a medical Pill Crusher or a Mortar and Pestle. 











Grinding and making your own supplements is a safe / effective alternative to the more expensive products. If you have a large collection of frogs you know that their vitamin supplements can be rather expensive.

On the other hand, if you have a small collection of frogs, grinding your own is an inexpensive way to keep your dusting powders fresh. Anti-oxidant vitamins llike A, B2, B3, C, and E are subject to oxidation. This oxidation changes or destroys the vitamin’s effectiveness and health benefits. Vitamins in the powdered form will oxidize and degrade much quicker than they will in a pill form because oxygen is exposed to everything all at once. 

This is why it is recommended that you replace your dusting vitamins every 6 months or so. If you have a small collection, throwing out large unused portions of vitamin powder can seem rather wasteful and expensive and we don’t therefore tend to throw out our dusting powders. We can’t see any change in the powder, so we keep using it, but the change is there. If we don’t use fresh dusting powders, our frogs are not getting the benefit that we think they are as we are dusting their food which can affect their health, and the health and viability of their offspring.



*THE DUSTING POWDERS DESCRIBED*​


*Multivitamin*
A good multivitamin supplement is essential for a frog’s good health and that of their tads. 










I will put several tablets into the coffee grinder, close the lid and start grinding. 

Shaking the grinder while it is running will help the pills to be ground up into a super fine powder. If you don’t shake it, the pill fragments are so light that larger chunks will be left whole as they float around in the whirlwind vortex. I then sift the powder through a fine mesh tea strainer to get rid of any chunks that don’t get pulverized. The resulting power is so fine that it sticks well to the flies.




*Calcium / Vitamin D3*
Calcium and Vitamin D3 are also essential to a frog’s good health. 










Calcium is required for bone growth and D3 is required because it binds with calcium, which helps the body to absorb the calcium properly. If you have a UV-B bulb in your tank you may be able to get by without supplementing D3 because the body makes vitamin D3 in the presence of UV-B. You can get calcium / Vitamin D3 powder (Rep-Cal with D3 or Miner-All), but I once again use the coffee grinder to grind up calcium / vitamin D3 tablets to keep my calcium / D3 dusting powder fresh.



*Astaxanthin*
Astaxanthin is the best color supplement available to us today. It absorbs much better than the paprika and red chili powders that we have used in years past. While it is similar in structure to the beta-carotene that is found in canthoxanthin, it does not convert to Vitamin A so one does not run the risk of liver, and kidney damage from Vitamin A toxicity. Astaxanthin greatly increases the carotenoid content of the flies, which in turn helps your frog’s color approach that of their wild caught ancestors. 



















Besides helping boost a frog’s colors, It seems to numerous health benefits. It is a super-antioxidant that has 100-500 times the antioxidant capacity of Vitamin E and 10 times the antioxidant capacity of beta-carotene. It boosts the immune system, protecting cell membranes, and it seems to be involved in nerve health. To date I could find that are no known toxic effects of Astaxanthin in either humans or animals, even at high doses. 


Astaxanthin is naturally produced by microscopic plants: the micro-alga Haematococcus pluvialis, but most Astaxanthin is not actually extracted from the marine plants but is chemically produced. Astaxanthin can be found under several other synonyms: Lucantin Pink, Ovoester, AstaREAL, and BioAstin and it is found in product names like Naturose, and Carophyll-pink. It can also be found as a vitamin supplement, but most all of the Astaxanthin vitamin supplements that I have found are the soft gelcap form because the oil form is the easiest variety to extract. 


In reading through the manufactures data sheets, I did find one thing that folks in the frogging community has not talked about. The manufacturers recommend that the best way to store Astaxanthin for the long term is to put it in the freezer, preferably being stored at around minus 20°C. At this temperature, it is supposed to remain stable for at least one year. While our freezers do not get this cold, it may be best to keep the Astaxanthin that we are not presently using to dust the flies with in the freezer. I keep a small amount in a dusting container with the rest being store in the freezer. If you store it this way, common sense says to let it warm up completely before you open it so that water doesn't condense in the powder causing it to clump. Synthetic Astaxanthin is supposed to be stabile for about two years and if you store it in the freezer it will last quite a bit longer.


More to come.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dave,

The literature does show that astaxanthin has a provitamin A activity in anurans. 

The other thing about the homemademix is that in just using astaxanthin, you are missing out on a number of other carotenoids that are commonly found in anurans. 

When using a spice/pill grinder you have to be careful to not let the vitamins warm up during the grinding process as this starts breaking down the vitamins. 

Ed


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Hi Ed,



Ed said:


> Dave,
> 
> The literature does show that astaxanthin has a provitamin A activity in anurans.


Can you cite some of the references to this. In my researching I have seen a great deal of information that astaxanthin does not have provitamin A activity, but this may be mainly related to mammals. Many sources of information state that astaxanthin does not have provitamin A activity, but these may be aimed at studying the affects on mammals, ie selling astaxanthin to people.


Astaxanthin Description

Pub Med Article

Journal of Nutrition

Healthy Body Daily

Nutrition Science Article

Astaxanthin, a Carotenoid without Vitamin A Activity, Augments Antibody Responses 



I was able to find one study that indicated that fish could convert astaxanthin into Vitamin A. 


Fish Able to convert Astaxanthin to Vitamin A

I have not been able to find anything that refers to whether frogs can convert astaxanthin to Vitamin A.





> The other thing about the homemademix is that in just using astaxanthin, you are missing out on a number of other carotenoids that are commonly found in anurans.


I value your input. Any suggestions on a combination / mix that would be best for our frogs? What kind of proportions? 

I chose astaxanthin because it seems to absorb better than the paprika or chili powders that we used to use. Also the data that seemed to indicate that astaxanthin doesn't convert into Vitamin A thereby reducing the likely hood of creating Hypervitaminosis A toxicity and all of the problems that can create.

Hypervitaminosis A

All of the research I have found indicates that there is very little down side to it's use as it is presently found to color salmon, trout, krill, shrimp, crayfish, crustaceans, and birds. When added to frogs diets, their colors seem to come closer to that of their wild caught cousins.



> When using a spice/pill grinder you have to be careful to not let the vitamins warm up during the grinding process as this starts breaking down the vitamins.
> 
> Ed


Agreed. One of the other benefits to using the high speed coffee grinder that works kind of like a blender.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Is there a way to quantify the amount of dust that actually adheres to the flies?
I know it will be quite variable, depending on the dust particle size, and time from dusting. 
I have access to an analytical scale accurate to 0.1mg and tried a variation of Ed's method for determing the weight of dust on melanos, but wasn't very satisfied with the results. Doing the calculations, my melanos averaged 0.83mg; which wasn't very different than Ed's calculation of 0.753mg
Dust weight came out to 2.8% of the fly weight. That seems excessive to me.
I'll give this another shot tomorrow, unless someone already has this data.
All of my frogs are juvenile or subadult and I've been dusting exclusively with Repashy Plus daily. Each frog consumes on average 20 flies a day.
Is the quantity of vitamin A in Repashy Plus known?
I guess my thinking is...If Repashy Calcium Plus does not offer enough Vitamin-A or astaxanthin, why wouldn't he simply add more to his formula?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reef_Haven said:


> Dust weight came out to 2.8% of the fly weight. That seems excessive to me.
> I'll give this another shot tomorrow, unless someone already has this data.


If I remember correctly, the only other study on dusting and fruit flies was done by Dr. S. Donoghue in an unpublished study referenced in her chapter on Nutrition in Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery. She referenced a concern that fruit flies could retain more supplements in relation to thier body size resulting in a risk of overdose if the frogs were overfed (or gorged themselves due to a surplus of flies). Howver as this is a complete supplement, the amount of vitamin A actually absorbed is dependent on several factors. The approximate amount of vitamin A absorbed is dependent on several factors as both D3 and E compete for uptake with vitamin A which reduces the amount of A actually absorbed, the amount of fat in the diet at the time of ingestion also affects the absorbtion of those vitamins. The amount of fat also affects the absorbtion of carotenoids (which can also compete for uptake). 

At this time we do not know the exact RDA for vitamin A (or any other vitamin) for frogs, what we do know is that thier RDA falls within the values established many years ago for domestic animals. The issue with vitamin A probably would never have occured if a person in the early 1990s hadn't decided (with no information) that vitamin A in the supplements available at that time was what was causing the death of chamelons and posted this on the web where it went viral. This resulted in the majority of herp supplement manufacturers no longer using retinly palmitate in thier supplements and using 100% beta carotene as thier source of vitamin A which is what brings us to today where it appears that frogs have issues with converting suffiicent beta carotene to retinol to supple all of the metabolic needs (but those needs are also affected by how we keep the frogs (for example reproductive for most or all of a year)). 
Now we do know that tadpoles can use a pathway that converts astaxanthin to a form of retinol for thier metabolic needs but they can also convert other carotenoids as well. At metamorphosis the pathway for conversion of carotenoids changes from astaxanthin (which is retained in the eye of at least some adult anurans allowing for more efficient vision) to other carotenoids. Most of today's supplements do not contain the wide variety of carotenoids that anurans can use for pigmentation and/or provitamin A sources. 

So where does this bring us.. the only way to determine the actual amount of vitamin A needed by a frog is to amass a large number of that species, feed them on a formulation that starts out with no vitamin A (or what every vitamin or mineral you are testing for) and after a period of time sacrifice (ideally when they show signs of deficiency) all of them and have them analyzed for that nutrient. Repeat this with different amounts of the nutrient until you are seeing toxicity issues and then go back through the data and find the range where you no longer see the signs of deficiency or toxicity and this is the range from which the RDA is calculated... This is prohibitively expensive, time consuming and potentially ethically challenging given that virtually all animals respond to the same ranges as seen in domestic animals (vitamin needs tend to be heavily conserved across taxa). Instead formulations are based on the prior data and then tweaked if something shows up to be deficient or excessive. This is what we are seeing with some of the supplements such as the Repashy. 

Repashy recently came out with a new formulation for thier supplements which not only contain a variety of carotenoid sources but a decrease in beta carotene and an increase of retinly palmitate. This formulation is new and whether or not it solves all of the issues with hypovitaminosis of A needs some time to for reports to come in... ON a purely anecdotal basis, there are a number of good reports starting to filter out.. (I must note, that this is hard to discuss without causing the appearance of feedback... so bear with the circumlocution. ) Prior data indicates that most supplements show significant variations in make-up not only between brands but between batches (in part because they are not regulated), we do not have neutral third party analysis of the newer supplements in part directly due to threats of lawsuits that resulted from the prior study. As a result conventional wisdom is to rotate more than one supplement to deal with the deficiencies between brands and batches but this may be a disservice to newer brands who are more conscientious in thier formulations but again we do not have a neutral analysis of the newer brands. In addition, most of the supplements on the market still use beta carotene as thier sole source of vitamin A which is in part why we still see issues with hypovitaminosis requiring an additional supplementation to bring the frogs back to the correct baseline. 

My fingers are getting tired.. so if you wish to discuss this some more let me know. 

Ed 

PS: It was great to see my data wasn't that far off with a different method (I was using wingless flies for my calculation).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Dave,

I have a whole article on it in the TWI's Leaf Litter which discusses all of those points. As it is a recent issue, I'm not thrilled about posting the information and references here as it discourages people from either purchasing the magazine which is one of the main funding sources for TWI. 

See for example 
Collins, F. D.; Love, R. M.; Morton, R. A.; Studies in vitamin A; visual pigments in tadpoles and adult frogs; Biochem J 53(4):632-636 


Ed


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

Ed = wicked smart! 
Thanks for the insight, as always.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Thank you Ed,
I asked basically the same question here.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/583433-post142.html
Along with some questions regarding Panacur nematode treatment.
I already have some very good advice from a herp vet on this board, just trying to clarify some things.
So, 
one of my original questions remain, any idea of a range of dust that will adhere to the flies in terms of their body weight? Does 1% immediately after dusting sound plausible, assuming proper grind and surface area.
I too used wingless melanogaster, mine were from a very fresh hatch.

Anyone have a couple Vitamin A tabs or capsule they can spare? Seems a waste to buy an entire bottle when one or two tabs could very well last a full six months for only a few frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have not seen any published data on the retention amount (but this has also only been recommended relatively recently.) of vitamin A. With the capsules you are going to want to discard any surplus after regrinding as it is likely to undergo increased oxidation due to the changes in particle size, exposure and incorporation of oxygen and atmospheric moisture.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

I would only chip off a corner at a time and just grind 2 x the recommended dose, since only about 50% would actually stick. and the recommended dose twice a month which might be???


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have not seen it as a tablet as yet, only capsules. Once you breach the capsule and grind it, it should be discarded as it increases the risk of oxidation and breakdown of the vitamin A. 

Ed


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## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

Ed, the brand I got was Solaray Vitamin Dry A 25,000 IU Capsules
Beta Carotene & Retinyl Palmitate and I just open the capsule and pour the 
powder and regrind it, is that what you meant? 

Thanks Dave


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Yes, that is one of them. Just open the capsule and regrind it. 

Ed


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## goncalo (Jun 28, 2010)

Hi,

I am from portugal, and there is not anyone breeding dendrobates so i cant get information from people here, but has i figure it out from what i read on this thread, dendrobates need this :

- Multivitaminic
- Calcium with D3
- Vitamin A

Here we use exo-terra calcium+D3 ONLY so i suppose its too bad only this.

After the discussion above what supplements can we say thats good to cover fruit flies to give dendrobates ?


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

goncalo said:


> After the discussion above what supplements can we say thats good to cover fruit flies to give dendrobates ?


I don't understand your question exactly. As I understand it you already answered your question?


goncalo said:


> dendrobates need this :
> 
> - Multivitaminic
> - Calcium with D3
> - Vitamin A


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

PeanutbuttER said:


> I don't understand your question exactly. As I understand it you already answered your question?


Take it easy on him, English isn't his first language here. 

If I understood him correctly, he is only able to get the Exo-terra calcium with D3 and is asking if that supplies all of the things needed by the frogs.

The answer is no, that supplement doesn't supply the other vitamins and minerals needed for the frogs. It also doesn't supply vitamin A in the form of retinoids. 

If Goncalo can mail order some of the other supplements, then a complete supplementation can be supplied for the frogs. I believe Repashy products are going to be distributed in Europe but if he can't locate them, I would suggest Herpetal or Dendrocare, both of which should be able to be mail ordered in Europe. 

Hope that helps,

Ed


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Ed said:


> Take it easy on him, English isn't his first language here.


That's fine. I'm not trying to be rough on him at all, I just didn't get what he was getting at. Whether it was asking whether the other supplements he listed were actually necessary or if he was asking for brand suggestions for supplements. 

Having lived in a couple countries for a good number of years where I didn't speak the language at first I can completely empathize with difficulties making yourself understood.


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## goncalo (Jun 28, 2010)

Thanks for help, the problem is the scientific therms that im not familiar with. 


Thanks Ed you answered my question, because here in Portugal no one breeds them and im trying to start breeding dendrobates, got two clutches of anthonyi now but as i can see were we are not correctly supplementing the frogs.

Then herpetal or dendrocare, what products should i use for supplementing from those two brands ?

I saw some threads on human supplementing used for frogs, can that be done without any problems ?

Thanks, xD


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## basket (Jan 16, 2010)

Dendrocare is a all in one vitamin so you can use just that or a combination of the of the other two. I'm not sure what company to order it from in Europe but I know its more readily available their. Only one US supplier I know of.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

goncalo said:


> Thanks for help, the problem is the scientific therms that im not familiar with.
> 
> 
> Thanks Ed you answered my question, because here in Portugal no one breeds them and im trying to start breeding dendrobates, got two clutches of anthonyi now but as i can see were we are not correctly supplementing the frogs.
> ...


As noted above, Dendrocare is a complete supplement and can be used by itself. Here is the link to the Dendrocare website and thier distributers Dendrocare

I think there are probably a couple of the Herpetal products you can use, but I would suggest contacting the manufacturer and asking them which they would recommend. This is the link to thier website Herpetal - Produkte für Reptilien und Amphibien | Artikel » Complete T

Human grade vitamins are not ideal for use as they contain the wrong form of vitamin D for the frogs and this can make it hard to supplement the frogs correctly but can be used as a last resort. 

Ed


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## goncalo (Jun 28, 2010)

Ok, then dendrocare and herpetal (this one what product ? )

I am doing once per week calcio+d3, how often should i supplement the frogs ?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dusting the insects with each feeding is probably your best bet at this time. 

I haven't used the Herpetal products so I'm not sure which is the best for you but you can ask the people who make it and they should be able to help you. 

Ed


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## goncalo (Jun 28, 2010)

ok, thanks for help

And about human vitamins ? Its better to use the ones for dendrobates ?

How long it can be preserved in good conditions ? Only 6 moths ?

If i use dendrocare or herpetal it is not necessary to supplement extra vitamin A ?


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## basket (Jan 16, 2010)

They are two different products. Dedrocare is ok to use at every feeding, which is what I do. But I only feed my frogs every two or three days depending on how many flies are left running around tank.


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## goncalo (Jun 28, 2010)

basket said:


> They are two different products. Dedrocare is ok to use at every feeding, which is what I do. But I only feed my frogs every two or three days depending on how many flies are left running around tank.



Both my anthonyi and auratus are 6 moths old and i feed them every day, maybe for anthonyi since they are adult i can do every two days but for auratus till they reach adult i think every day is okay or not ? (they are 6 in the terrarium so they eat almost all flies each feeding)


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## basket (Jan 16, 2010)

It's so much of a set schedule on feeding. It's more of watching the frogs and determining how much they are eating if there is a lot of excess flies in the tank from the previous feeding then you should cut back on how much you feed them. You also have to keep an eye on the frogs them selves so they don't become over weight.


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## Allen Repashy (Jul 17, 2009)

I do have several distributors in Europe now if it is ok to post links. None in Portugal, but here are a few in Germany and the UK. I also ship direct from my website. It costs $20.00 for a package that will carry up to one kilo of product.

Cheers, Allen

Startseite - Crested Gecko Diet

Repashy Superfoods Shop | Kronen-Geckofutter

https://www.store.repashy.com/

Lillyexotics ::crested gecko, gecko, crestie,gecko breeder,ciliatus,panther chameleon,chameleon breeder,vivarium

Reptiland.es


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you can order the supplements from Allen Repashy, then that would be an excellent product to use for the frogs as it contains a greater variety of carotenoids for the frogs as well as a non-beta carotene source of vitamin A. 

Ed


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## goncalo (Jun 28, 2010)

Really thanks for help, i will do that xD


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