# lung worms looking for info



## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

I had some fecals done and some of them have lung worms and/or hookworms. I sort of expected them to have some form of worm, as i have talked to a couple people now and i have concluded that most cb frogs will probably have some type of worm, not nescsarily life thraetening but i think they are very common (correct me if i am wrong)

Anyways i am ordering panacur to start with. Also I know hookworms can live within a tank causing the frogs to become reinfected, but i was wondering whether or not lungworms can do the same?

Info please ( cough cough Ed)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Yes lungworms can live in the tank and reinfect the frogs. 

Now for the real bad news. If they were in an established terraria, you will have to strip out the tank, and throw away everything that cannot absolutely be disinfected as these have a free living adult part of the life cycle that produce infectious larva as well as free living larva (which infect the frog by burrowing through the skin of the frog) and readily form superinfections. (Look up Rhabdias for the complete lifecycle). 

If you are using fenbendazole to treat them then you really will need to administer it orally as opposed to dusting the flies as you have to make sure they get the correct dose to eliminate the worms otherwise they can continue to be reinfected as the adults maynot be eliminated (reducing their number doesn't really help due to the free living larva produced by the free living adults that then continually produce infectious larva). If this is a species you cannot administer the exact dose orally then you should talk to your vet about maybe using a different wormer like ivermectin or levamisol. 

In addition the frogs should be placed into quarantine containers which are stripped and cleaned every couple of days to help prevent reinfection. 

Ed


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Ok Ed I shot you a pm.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Ok by the time i called to order panacur Dr .fryes offcie was closed, BUT UCD vet hospital which is near me does have panacur, once again BUT i have heard panacur comes in different potencies and was wondering which one it is?


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

can the 22.2% powder that is commonly used for horses etc. be used?
i read that you are supposed to use 50-100 mg/ kg body weight, how much of the powder would you use to get this ratio? if this powder is too strong, could you mix it with regular vitamin powder to dilute it to the appropriate strength?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would not suggest diluting it with vitamin/mineral powder for dusting as 
1) dusting is already a horribly inaccurate method for administering the wormer
2) the ingredients in the dust can interfere with the uptake and absorbtion of the wormer
3) the dust will compete with the wormer to stick to the flies. 

Ed


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

I agree with Ed.
Lungworms (Rhabdias sp) can look like hookworms or other strongyle worms under a microscope. Could you see an almost fully developed worm moving in the egg? That is slightly suggestive of lungworms as opposed to the intestinal variety.  Rhabdias and Strongyle worms are susceptible to Panacure. 

I favor liquid Panacure in properly measured doses given orally. Three treatments are usually required to fully eliminate the parsites. You can use the powder to mix into the proper concentration, and give the correct oral dose. Like Ed said, if you just dust the flies, you have no idea how much you gave. A half-hearted treatment will give you a half-hearted cure. Parasites can always grow back if not fully treated.

Best of Luck,
John


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Dr. Frye snipped from an email
" It is not reasonable to orally dose a specific mg dosage of fenbendazole in a dart frog. Neither is it necessary. Dusting the offered flies once weekly for four weeks is extremely safe and effective. Treating with a liquid dewormer first can cause problems – levamisol and ivermectin are very potent and have many more side effects than Panacur."

I really like Dr. Fryes work and he is extremley helpful!

I am going to treat with panacur for 4 weeks, weekly, and then get the fecals retested. If they are still present i will move onto a more precise form of dosing the medicines.

Thanks for the help I really sppreciate it!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Each vet has thier own opinon so all I can do is relate the experience I have had when dealing with vets that specialize in amphibians. In the 14 plus years I have been doing this with 4 different exotic animal vets that this would not be considered an acceptable method of delivery (by these vets)(dusting the fruit flies) of the medicine. I have restrained and had adminstered by the vets fenbendazole to frogs as small as three grams with no problems. This can be done and be over with in less than a couple of minutes (total from capture to end of dosing) with a 100% surety of having adminstered the correct dose. If restraining the frog is an issue then we would simply use a different wormer to ensure that the frogs recieved an adequate dosage. In this manner we have resolved nematode infections in frogs as small as Mantella aurantiaca metamorphs with only two treatments. Other wormers that can be used can simply be dripped onto the back of the frog and will work with as little as two doses 7 days apart. If you wish to know more about the other wormers, I would suggest contacting a vet. 

Ed


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

Dr. Frye has a great reputation, however this a topic that I respectfully disagree with him. My favor lies with the measured dose, when possible, and I feel this way for most drugs. 
The advantages to a measured dose is that you know what went into the frog and when. If, after a series of obscure and subjective "dustings", the parasites are still around, you don't know if it is due to inadequate dusting, wrong drug, or drug resistence. The next step after that is to do the measured oral method, which we hope the parasites haven't developed a resistence by then. To me it's just as easy to go strainght to the method endorsed by Ed. 

Regardless which method you choose, the hardest part is treating the environment. If the frog will remain in the contaminated environment or tank, there is not much point to treating as the frog will more than likely get re-infected. 

Do your frogs have an signs of lethargy, wasting, inappetence, or ADR (ain't doin' right)? Are they in a quarentine or temporary tank?


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

I am working with a sensitive frog and oral dosing will only stress it. Frogs can live with worms to some extent, but orally forcing meds in their mouth may be a prblem.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Frogs can live with some levels of parasites however if they have lungworms then living with some level is a temporally short term item unless you are keeping them in an enclosure that is stripped, cleaned and disinfected usually daily (which if the frog is as sensitive as you allude isn't doing it any good either) to prevent the infection from continuing to build through exposure to infectious larva (these worms burrow through the skin of the frog so the frog doesn't have to ingest them to be reinfected or continually infected jsut in contact with infected substrate). If capturing them and orally dosing is an issue, then I would strongly suggest taking advantage of one of the other worming options and simply dripping it on the back of the frog. 

Ed


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Ed thats part of the plan. I left it out but Dr. Frye said it will be best to treat them for four weeks with panacur and then retests fecals if still present then use a liquid form, so yes i will do that if there is still a problem.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

So instead of keeping them in quarantine enclosures for a little over two weeks and treating the sensitive frog via say two doses of ivermectin you are going to keep in a quarantine enclosure for 4 weeks of treatment? If the frog(s) are still positive after that then you are going to begin a second round of treatment on a sensitive frog while still keeping it in a quarantine enclosure that you can clean to prevent continual reinfection by the worms as opposed to a second round of treatments if the frog is still positive after the two treatments?? 

Explain to me how this is the less stressful method on a admittedly sensitive frog? 

Ed


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Well they are in two sperate 10 gallon tanks with an abundance of pothos and paper towel bedding.
I plan to treat them with panacur for 1 month while i have heard that if you use a liquid worm killer the rapid decay of worms within the frogs body may be a problem.
Then If this is still an issue I will treat with a liquid form and hopefully by then the worm burden will be much lower so it will eradicate the worms and the frog will not have many worms decaying within it.

I find this less stressful then holding the frog sticking a tube in its mouth and squirting in pancur. More time is involved but i dont have to bother them so frequently besides the substate change.

I was also wondering if it would be smarter to use fake plants do to the fact that they will be much easier to sterilize.

Any other ideas?

Ed if you could please emphasize on how to orally dose the correct amount of panacur i will consider it. I just donot want to handle them unless necessary, but i guess this is necessary so i am taking all the options i can.


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

After weighing the frog, you will need to get a pipette to measure out the medication and usually the tips are small and firm enough to gently insert into the frog's mouth. It does take practice and control. If the deworming solution is too concentrated you can usually dilute it out. 

A scale and microliter pipettes are pretty easy to find on ebay. 

John


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Well they are in two sperate 10 gallon tanks with an abundance of pothos and paper towel bedding. "endsnip 

If they do have lung worms you will need to throw out the plants whenever you change the paper towels. This is because the plants will provide a vector for the parasite to survive and reinfect the frogs. 

snip "I plan to treat them with panacur for 1 month while i have heard that if you use a liquid worm killer the rapid decay of worms within the frogs body may be a problem. "endsnip 

A wormer is a wormer and all kill the parasite they are made to target. Why would you think that a worm killed by a solid worming agent decays less than one killed with a liquid worming agent? 

snip "Then If this is still an issue I will treat with a liquid form and hopefully by then the worm burden will be much lower so it will eradicate the worms and the frog will not have many worms decaying within it. "endsnip 

Based on how we have done it here, I think you have a couple of different treatment ideas mixed together. 
One of the items you seem to have mixed up here is when animals have severe loads of parasites and are dosed with a vermifuge and the animal has a toxic reaction due to the massive die off of the parasite inside the tissues. As I understand it (and you should probably talk to a vet or maybe John can add something to it or clarify where I go astray), this is more of an issue for parasites that are embedded inside tissues. For example, you could have massive die off of adult tapeworms with little or no problem as they are shed from the lining of the digestive tract (and maybe digested) while some filarial worms may be located in the liver, blood and other organs where a massive die off of these worms causes a reaction in the host potentially killing it (ala heartworm in dogs). In these cases carefully controlled dose or doses of a wormer can be adminstered to knock down the worm population before eliminating it. For this to be effective you need to be able to control the dose adminstered into the animal in this case a frog and monitor the animal for supportive treatment in case it crashes because of this treatment. This is a risky way of treating the animal in question. In addition dusting the flies is not the method by which should occur due the inaccuracies in adminstering the dose. 

snip "I find this less stressful then holding the frog sticking a tube in its mouth and squirting in pancur. More time is involved but i dont have to bother them so frequently besides the substate change. "endsnip 

A lesser amount of stress over a longer period of time is just as harmful to an animal as a larger amount of stress over a shorter period of time. In herps this is just as likely to kill the animal through immunosuppression etc. 


snip "I was also wondering if it would be smarter to use fake plants do to the fact that they will be much easier to sterilize. "endsnip 

This will allow you to rotate them without having to totally replace them all the time. In addition plants can reintroduce nematods to the frogs. 

snip "Ed if you could please emphasize on how to orally dose the correct amount of panacur i will consider it. I just donot want to handle them unless necessary, but i guess this is necessary snip " 

John covered it well and if you look up (I believe) force feeding emergency there is a good discussion on force feeding as well as on restraining the frogs. 

Ed


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

Ed seems on the money with his explanation. I'll add that, with regard to lung worms, there is a slight risk involved with inflammation after their death. The immune system reacts to the dead worms, the lung tissue gets inflamed, and the risk of secondary bacterial infection increases. The higher the worm load (in the lungs), the higher risk of pulmonary problems that can lead to death or illness.

There is a catch-22 to this possible risk. Given a high worm burden, doing nothing also leads to pulmonary inflammation can be life threatening. Rhabdias can also infect other tissues (skin, eye, liver) so again, doing nothing can still give the same result. Sadly, frogs rarely give you enough time to observe and react to any clinical signs before they croak (pun intended)

In high risk animals, a slower worm death also blunts the magnitude of the pulmonary inflammation...maybe. So there is some logic to lower doses administered over a longer period of time. With the panacur fly dust method, you really have no idea if you reaching the therapeutic dose, giving a slow kill dose, a worthless underdose, or even an overdose.

Best of luck with the treatment. Let us know how it turns out. 
John


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Alright so i am planing on treating with denbendazole for possibly two weeks and then moving to a stronger dose (hopefully only one dose). I feel more comfortable with the thought that some of the parasites have been destroyed and then i will finish them off with a liquid form of wormer if necessary.

Also if i pulverize my panacur with a mortar and pestal so it sticks to the flies better, could there be any problems with it?


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

To my knowledge, smashing panacure powder into finer powder doesn't alter it's effect. 
J


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I always grind panacur into a fine powder before dusting with it. It's pretty useless otherwise. Good luck.


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