# Is Azureus becoming a rat frog?



## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

It seems this blue beauty is so popular that it may eventually become a 'rat frog'. (For those who don't know, a 'rat frog' is slang for a frog that's been bred to the point of becoming undesirable because everyone has one---i.e., it's so numerous.)

Please give your vote on this issue and explain your vote, please. Should there be some sort of rules set up among the powers that be about how to stem the market so that these guys don't become the dreaded 'rat frog'?


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

i wrote perhaps just a bit, it seems at one point these were at high demand and around 50-70 bucks now they are like 30-40 and i posted an add for 8 of them at 4 months old and did not get one msg about them a while back. . .i hope they dont become a rat frog tho, for i feel they are still always going to be one of the most beautiful starter frogs for beginners, and not just that but one of the most striking animals in general!
-Troy


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I was thinking that too, since I see them for sale more than nearly any other frog. I think there need to be some kind of breeding guidelines/rotation or some kind of organization established for frogs in general. Maybe some influential froggers will read this and do something in that regard. 

Surely it's worth it...for the sake of our frogs....


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

thing is once the money is gone from breeding things people stop breeding them , then in just a few short years they become rare again. its a cycle and we have lost many a nice herp to the pet trade because they got cheap.
craig


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

thats a dumb reason in my eye, im gonna keep breeding them and have some sexed pairs available hopefully??


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## asilsdorf (Sep 7, 2005)

I voted "Not really---perhaps just a bit" because I don't have any, even though they have been on my acquisition list from day 1.

I have noted more of them for sale lately. Maybe it's time to think about getting some


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I agree---I just am dismayed that the market sways the breeding. Greed supersedes love for the frogs when this happens----a sad thing for an animal that really is invaluable.


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## Landrede (Oct 17, 2008)

somecanadianguy is right, Azureus is at that point where its becoming common to get, but will eventually turn around. Also, looking at a larger point of view, I consider having ANY dart frog a special and unique creature to have. Where I live, everybody has a dog, cat, fish etc, but i'm pretty proud to own dart frogs. Makes me feel a little bit more special than other but thats just my opinion. I think when a frog becomes a "rat frog" is when everybody (I mean everybody!) has one. Like if dart frogs become really popular in the future and everybody ive seen has an azureus, then its possible. But even then I would still think that every dart frog has always been as special as ever was.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

good point landrede


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## KevinS (Sep 23, 2008)

earthfrog said:


> I agree---I just am dismayed that the market sways the breeding. Greed supersedes love for the frogs when this happens----a sad thing for an animal that really is invaluable.


I don't think greed necessarily comes into play here. Personally I won't refrain from breeding something I like because it's not as valuable, but if the market is saturated or demand is so low that I don't think I can find homes for the offspring in a reasonable amount of time, that may keep me from going through with it.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Landrede said:


> somecanadianguy is right, Azureus is at that point where its becoming common to get, but will eventually turn around. Also, looking at a larger point of view, I consider having ANY dart frog a special and unique creature to have. Where I live, everybody has a dog, cat, fish etc, but i'm pretty proud to own dart frogs. Makes me feel a little bit more special than other but thats just my opinion. I think when a frog becomes a "rat frog" is when everybody (I mean everybody!) has one. Like if dart frogs become really popular in the future and everybody ive seen has an azureus, then its possible. But even then I would still think that every dart frog has always been as special as ever was.


Well, what can anyone say to that? 'Nuff said.


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## Dragas (Sep 4, 2008)

Being a good beginner frog and being relatively cheap could be combining to make it a bit more popular. 

I still find them wonderful and my next tank will house these.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

...i am insulted by the title of this thread, there is a better way to ask the question, one that has been asked many times about the popularity of common and easily bred species....Azureus follows this line like all other species....sorry that's just how I feel.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

I have to agree with Mark.. title is...hmmm


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

It's happened to many animals before and will happen again. It's just the way the pet trade is. Remember the days you could get tricolors pretty much anywhere?


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## Z5guy (Jan 7, 2009)

I voted not really, because even though I'm new it does seem to be a very prevelent species and it's one of the first species on my list to get. Forgive my newbness but it there already a dart frog that has gained this status? And I saw mentioned earlier in this thread about maybe leaveing important breeding decisions of the hobby up to a dart frog organization? You mean there's not one already? I would be very surprised if not by seeing all the passion you guys have for dart frogs on this board; I mean Rhododendrons have there own national society! Why not a international dart frog society?


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Azureus were my first frog a little less than a year ago and I still get just as much enjoyment out of them as I did the first day they came home. I will always want to have them. They have always been the boldest of all my frogs with the juv. terribs running a real close second. If they affect lot of people who have them as they have affected me, then I dont see where the market being saturated with them would be an issue. 

BTW...MJ, the fly has stop moving on my computer. Is it just on my end or did it die?
Candy


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Funny, azureus is the one frog I never have a problem getting rid of and never want to just get rid of them(juvis) to make space. They are the most known and most bought(sought after?) dart frog out there. They are the one that almost any pet shop would sell, they don`t need advertisement. I don`t think their popularity or status will ever wane. I just started a few more pair of azureus breeding myself. The shades of blue they display and diverse patterning they have no 2 look exactly alike. I have started tank raising a bunch of frogs and its great to see their(azureus) froglets/juvis growing up w/ them and the behaviors they display. There may be a lot out there but there is a reason for that.


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## Jerseyzuks (Dec 6, 2008)

Personally, I keep my frogs for myself, not as some type of "popularity contest". My collection will grow based on what I like, not what the "cool kids" are doing.

I think KevinS made the only really valid point here when he mentioned not being able to find homes for froglets.


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## asch803 (Nov 10, 2007)

NOT AT ALL! They are a beautiful, hardy and bold frog as well as being pretty easy to breed! That's why they are popular! Mine haven't bred yet (they're about 1 1/2 yrs old), but i still love them. Also, any time someone views my collection (non frogers) they always seem to like the Azureus the most even though I have some rarer or exotic darts, such as castis or 3-stripe peruvian trivs. I would draw a comparison to a saltwater fish, the yellow tang - they are beautiful and hardy and also relatively inexpensive - that's why they are so popular. Why do we need to regulate the Azureus? The only concern I have is if they have them in pet stores and the buyers are not educated properly on their care.


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## iridebmx (Oct 29, 2008)

i voted no because there are so many great breeders on here alone that if the if the "margins" get too bad and the ones that are in it for the money back out .there will still be people like a's frogfarm to pick the cycle back up again. due to the preference of my family i will end up getting some leucs ,but not because i dont like azureus. i will def end up with them ....just not as my first.I LOVE AZUREUS!


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

KevinS said:


> I don't think greed necessarily comes into play here. Personally I won't refrain from breeding something I like because it's not as valuable, but if the market is saturated or demand is so low that I don't think I can find homes for the offspring in a reasonable amount of time, that may keep me from going through with it.


From a retailer's point of view, if the existing market is beginning to get saturated, then either supply is going up, or demand is going down. In this case, I think that supply is increasing, as I see no decrease in demand. Azureus is still our best-selling species.

An increase in supply always drives down price, as consumers can shop around to find the best deal. I think this point has not been absorbed by some hobbyist breeders. When I post ads looking for wholesale lots of frogs, I always get responses that offer various species of frogs for as much or more than I retail them.

A breeder can always find homes for his offspring, if he or she prices them aggressively. After all, if you are breeding as a hobby, how much expense do you really have in raising a froglet? If you are a hobbyist, the only real expense is feeding. I can feed a dozen azureus froglets for a couple dollars a month.

Personally, I would like to see the prices of azureus come down even further, as it would help us introduce more people to the hobby, thereby increasing the overall size of the market.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

There is also a used car market stigma w/ animals. Because there is a large quality scale associated w/ animals, just like cars. There is size to consider, health and color in variable morphs. If there is no picture and someone is selling for their first time and they are trying to sell low a lot of people will ask themselves, what`s the catch? Is it too small, unhealthy,etc. More poeple will generally buy from a respected established place rather than the place that has only one for selection and has no reputation to stand by. This is what gets the people out who only wanted to make money as they found out it was work and azureus just don`t sell by 10`s and 20`s at $50ea every day. Azureus will never have a problem finding homes but they aren`t worth much until after 6 months of care for each individual. Frogs that aren`t about 1 inch or more are hard to get rid of. Your stuck into that 6 months of care till they are ready to be sold. So people starting out producing 40+ a month may be surprised when they are caring for 240 tads and 120 frogs before they are ready to sell. 
Also there will always be people who jump in before they are ready w/ any animal including darts. the only way to stop that is to make sure they know and are carrying the proper equipment(esp fruit flies) for darts so that people will know. Making care sheets and distributing them w/ the frogs for their customers.



jehitch said:


> From a retailer's point of view, if the existing market is beginning to get saturated, then either supply is going up, or demand is going down. In this case, I think that supply is increasing, as I see no decrease in demand. Azureus is still our best-selling species.
> 
> An increase in supply always drives down price, as consumers can shop around to find the best deal. I think this point has not been absorbed by some hobbyist breeders. When I post ads looking for wholesale lots of frogs, I always get responses that offer various species of frogs for as much or more than I retail them.
> 
> ...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

yeah..."Rat-frog" is a fairly condescending term we should probably eliminate altogether.

It's a shame that rodents have to continue to bear those negative connotations as well. Even though I get that you are trying to describe "fast breeding" when you say "rat".

I used to have a couple of Gambian pouched rats...or Ratz. They were very clean and not all that fecund, especially when compared to the more common ratus species.


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

I think we're reading too much into the word. If I say that something is "cool" I don't mean it's actually cold...


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## garweft (Mar 11, 2008)

I know that Azureus was at the top of the list and was the frog I wanted to start with. I have wanted one since around the mid 90's when I first saw one in reptiles magazine. However when I finally decided to start with darts, I started with New River Tincs, #2 on my list. The reason why was because how many Azureus were being offered buy just about everybody. I figured it would be a lot easier to find someone to trade me Azureus for new rivers than the other way around.

I do think however that anyone that is into tinc type darts will always have room for a pair of Azureus. They are show stoppers and even though common to us, they still demand attention from non froggers. I know for a fact that just about any non frogger thinks that the Azureus is a whole lot cooler, a more rare, than a boring green Cayo de Aqua pumilio, or the "ugly little" darkland.

Just one more thing to add........ THEY ARE FRIGGIN' BLUE!!!!!!!


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## disiwolf (Oct 1, 2008)

I think most of the good beginner frogs will go through the same ups and downs. In a few years it will be tinc or something else. Most of us agree that we are in to frogs because of how they look not how much money we can make. The money just lets us buy more frogs that we like. If the price of Azureus(a very beautiful) go down some more we can get more newbie into the hobby, which helps out the hobby. 

Azureus are on my list of frogs to get for sure there were a few ahead of them those.


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

I appreciate this board because it has reminded me to appreciate these animals more. 
I feel the same way about azureus as I do about red eyed tree frogs... For a while I ignored them because they are plentiful and don't cost a lot. However just because something is rare or expensive doesn't make it a better captive. 
I have kept both azureus and RETF in the past but let them go to move onto "better" species. Now I plan on getting both these species back into my collection because they are both excellent, beautiful captives. 

on topic... other than having trouble selling offspring, what are the problems with a frog becoming a "rat frog"? something about bloodlines or loosing them to the hobby? we still get wild collected RETF's but we don't have that security with azureus.


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## iridebmx (Oct 29, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> yeah..."Rat-frog" is a fairly condescending term we should probably eliminate altogether.
> 
> .


along with "lurking" ........................................lol


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Lurking is still pretty descriptive......at least with regards to me....at clubs. Downtown. Friday nights


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## iridebmx (Oct 29, 2008)

then you could call me a rat frog! in the same "club discription . bout 3 in the afternoon though.


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

In response to the multiple questions re a frog organization look at TWI as A) a great organization to support amphibians, and B) an organization that is developing breeding programs, guidelines etc thru the ASN program. People may want to check them both out. 

Tree Walkers International - » home

As far as the question, I voted no, not at all. I think it's important to realize that DB is a slice of the hobby, and while we may feel they are common, that is most likely not an opinion that is shared everywhere. As far as i am concerned, these frogs are incredibly important to the hobby. They are beautiful, bold, filled with personality, easy to keep, and by far the frog people are most amazed by when they see my little collection.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> It's a shame that rodents have to continue to bear those negative connotations as well. Even though I get that you are trying to describe "fast breeding" when you say "rat".


I guess I took the term rat improperly. I took it to mean almost like a pest and wondering if people were tired of seeing them. The rate of production didn't even pop into my head.

I've never kept azureus in all the years I've kept darts. I can't really say why, but I may be prone to pick up a pair if I stumble across one in person. I've always like them and since I'm not into the hobby for the money would probably look to donate to schools and coworkers rather then sell them. I've always got coworkers that are interested in them and have just never made the jump to get them.


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## iridebmx (Oct 29, 2008)

when i first read it i thought it meant azureus would become some sort of feeder for other pets

im glad thats not the case


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

That's exactly why the term "rat frog" is pretty silly and a bad choice for the hobby...

It is supposed to convey a fecund or "fast breeding" frog...most usually some of the thumbs or rocket frogs....as in:

"Boy, those frogs you got are producing a lot of eggs....they sure are breeding like rats".

Some people are now bending the term to mean "worthless", "flood the market", "everyone has them- too common" ect ect.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

The terminology was just a poor choice of words. When I got into the hobby they were incredibly scarce and the holy grail frog, through great diligence and maybe 1 questionable "importation" they have become readily available. Their availibilty in my estimation should never tarnish the fact that Azureus is the signature species of this hobby. The blue frog is what hooked so many people and though they have been replaced many times over by the current new discovery or unavailable gotta have they will always be the species that brought me into the hobby, a species deserving of respect, never to be taken for granted!!!


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> That's exactly why the term "rat frog" is pretty silly and a bad choice for the hobby...
> 
> It is supposed to convey a fecund or "fast breeding" frog...most usually some of the thumbs or rocket frogs....as in:
> 
> ...


I gotcha. I wonder if that's more of an up north term? I've always heard breeding like rabbits, but never rats.


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

jubjub47 said:


> I gotcha. I wonder if that's more of an up north term? I've always heard breeding like rabbits, but never rats.


I never heard breeding like rats either.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jubjub47 said:


> I gotcha. I wonder if that's more of an up north term? I've always heard breeding like rabbits, but never rats.


Exactly..

You guys say Rabbits....like they are cute ect......Jackrabbits...floppy ears ect. 

In the big Northern cites, we don't have cute rabbits breeding away. We have huge nasty Norwiegan rats all over the place...Boston, NYC, Philly, Baltimore....not too many cute exploding wabbit populations but plenty of


RATS


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

I doubt azureus will ever become unpopular. They may be fairly common and inexpensive, but everybody loves them. They will be the next dart in my collection for sure.


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## colb (Mar 13, 2008)

I find this threat to be particularly interesting. 

I was actually wanting Azureus to be my first darts, but not being able to go and purchase the frogs for an extended period of time after my initial interest, the idea of having them became less and less desirable. Don't get me wrong, they are definitely beautiful frogs, which my wife was originally fascinated with above all other contenders... but after some time, they went further down her list as well as mine for a first dart - mainly due to the fact that they are in fact so popular, and many seem to think them the obvious first choice. 

I ended up purchasing 3 Green/Black Costa Rican Auratus, because I think they are very underrated, and almost just as beautiful as any other frog out there!

I did vote "No. Not at all" though. Maybe that's because I live in Canada, and the hobby seems to be very small in comparison to that of the States - At least whenever I mention "Dart frogs" people are like, "Whaaaa?!?!?!" with a puzzled expression on their face. I have yet to see a single Dart frog (Be it Azureus or any other for that matter) in an Ontario pet store. I only know of two people who are breeding and selling Darts on a consistent basis in Ontario, Canada.

Just my two cents.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

All animals are special in their own way. Each of us will place a value on them but in the end, their true worth is not for us to judge.

Bill


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

markpulawski said:


> ...i am insulted by the title of this thread, there is a better way to ask the question, one that has been asked many times about the popularity of common and easily bred species....Azureus follows this line like all other species....sorry that's just how I feel.



Sorry about that. I didn't think it was rude since 'rat frog' is commonly used terminology in this hobby. Didn't mean to offend you. 

I think it might have offended someone else if I worded it a different way, anyhow, and we all know it's not possible to please everyone at once. 

Again, just trying to act in the interest of the frog, anyhow. I brought up the post really to raise the issue about breeding frogs in the interest of saving them rather than just to sell them. The market fluctuation issue birthed the term 'rat frog', so I was wondering if TWI or some other organization could create breeding recommendations or ask certain breeders to commit' to breeding a certain species for a certain period of time in order to avoid its becoming a 'rat frog'. Anyone have any other ideas on this point?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Marty71 said:


> In response to the multiple questions re a frog organization look at TWI as A) a great organization to support amphibians, and B) an organization that is developing breeding programs, guidelines etc thru the ASN program. People may want to check them both out.
> 
> Tree Walkers International - » home
> 
> As far as the question, I voted no, not at all. I think it's important to realize that DB is a slice of the hobby, and while we may feel they are common, that is most likely not an opinion that is shared everywhere. As far as i am concerned, these frogs are incredibly important to the hobby. They are beautiful, bold, filled with personality, easy to keep, and by far the frog people are most amazed by when they see my little collection.



I tend to agree that they are most essential to the hobby as well. I was worried about them, and I hope that we never lose faith in these frogs or any others for that matter. 
One of my reasons in creating this thread is not to find out if they're popular or unpopular, but to hear everyone's opinion about how special the frog really is.


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## siples (Aug 14, 2004)

WhenI started in this hobby over 25yrs ago(Which unfortunately shows my age) I never thought I would see let alone own an Azureus. I had found a doctor that sent newsletters to people that had contacted him by phone or mail. Twice he contacted people concerning frog sales over the phone, which means at a designated time you had to start calling and hopefully get through see what he had left and reserve something. It was nerve wracking, 
just constantly dialed until you got in between calls. I was always to late on the Azures, $500 apiece!!! I will never be without at least one group of Azureus.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

earthfrog said:


> Sorry about that. I didn't think it was rude since 'rat frog' is commonly used terminology in this hobby. Didn't mean to offend you.
> 
> 
> > It's really not common terminology. I think the term started in print...one of those European books again, lol.
> ...


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> It's really not common terminology.


I agree with the term “rat species” it is not that common. 



earthfrog said:


> Again, just trying to act in the interest of the frog, anyhow. I brought up the post really to raise the issue about breeding frogs in the interest of saving them rather than just to sell them.


I have issue with breeding to save them. I am a firm believer that captive breeding is responsible conservation to stop the damage of wild collecting. Keeping track of lineage of species is a great idea to sustain captive populations of frogs. 

The notion that some people have that some day their frogs will be released into the wild is a bit naive. The chances of this happening are extremely, extremely, limited. Several factors go into the reintroduction of a species.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> earthfrog said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry about that. I didn't think it was rude since 'rat frog' is commonly used terminology in this hobby. Didn't mean to offend you.
> ...


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

siples said:


> WhenI started in this hobby over 25yrs ago(Which unfortunately shows my age) I never thought I would see let alone own an Azureus. I had found a doctor that sent newsletters to people that had contacted him by phone or mail. Twice he contacted people concerning frog sales over the phone, which means at a designated time you had to start calling and hopefully get through see what he had left and reserve something. It was nerve wracking,
> just constantly dialed until you got in between calls. I was always to late on the Azures, $500 apiece!!! I will never be without at least one group of Azureus.


This is true. I read a book titled Keeping poison Frogs by Jerry G. Walls. It was written in '94. It said that azureus are very hard to obtain legally and quite expensive and super rare. I dont think azureus are rat frogs because if the were wouldnt I see them at every pet shop in my city? And wouldn't they be like $5 like fire belly toads?


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## iridebmx (Oct 29, 2008)

iridebmx said:


> i voted no because there are so many great breeders on here alone that if the if the "margins" get too bad and the ones that are in it for the money back out .there will still be people like a's frogfarm to pick the cycle back up again. due to the preference of my family i will end up getting some leucs ,but not because i dont like azureus. i will def end up with them ....just not as my first.I LOVE AZUREUS!


guess what!.............i just got a few azureus!(today) i love em and might even name the little buggers!


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

moothefrog said:


> This is true. I read a book titled Keeping poison Frogs by Jerry G. Walls. It was written in '94. It said that azureus are very hard to obtain legally and quite expensive and super rare. I dont think azureus are rat frogs because if the were wouldnt I see them at every pet shop in my city? And wouldn't they be like $5 like fire belly toads?


I think he is using that term to compare them to other dart frogs and not just any old frog.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

iridebmx said:


> guess what!.............i just got a few azureus!(today) i love em and might even name the little buggers!


Im getting some azureus today,too!


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> You guys say Rabbits....like they are cute ect......Jackrabbits...floppy ears ect.


Actually jackrabbits aren't rabbits at all, they are hares. Sorry, just my bratty side coming out........ 

And azureus were my first frogs. When I looked at all the species, I weighed the idea of......."If I only got one and never had another, which would I not want to go without?"

Now that I'm into this addictive hobby, I can see what a stupid question that was. 

Deb


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Rabbits are clearly distinguished from hares in that rabbits are altricial, having young that are born blind and hairless. In contrast, hares are generally born with hair and are able to see (precocial). All rabbits except the cottontail rabbit live underground in burrows or warrens, while hares live in simple nests above the ground (as does the cottontail rabbit), and usually do not live in groups. Hares are generally larger than rabbits, with longer ears, and have black markings on their fur. Hares have not been domesticated, while rabbits are often kept as house pets. In gardens, they are typically kept in hutches—small, wooden, house-like boxes—that protect the rabbits from the environment and predators.

Rabbits....Hares.....they all belong to the same family: _*Wabbitbatidae*_

Next.....


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> i wrote perhaps just a bit, it seems at one point these were at high demand and around 50-70 bucks now they are like 30-40 and i posted an add for 8 of them at 4 months old and did not get one msg about them a while back. . .i hope they dont become a rat frog tho, for i feel they are still always going to be one of the most beautiful starter frogs for beginners, and not just that but one of the most striking animals in general!
> -Troy


$50 to $70????? I remember when $150 was a deal on them LOL
Brian


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Out of all the frogs that go through popularity trends I think the one that does not have to worry about being forgotten is Azurues.

If you have not already read this:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/14623-popularity-trends-article.html


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Next.....


You did a fine job of posting the difference. And once again, jackrabbit is the common name for an animal that is in fact.......................a hare. 

Deb (ex 4-H rabbit resource leader) 

Of course, that can be complicated further by the breed called the Belgian Hare, which is in fact....................a rabbit.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> earthfrog said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry about that. I didn't think it was rude since 'rat frog' is commonly used terminology in this hobby. Didn't mean to offend you.
> ...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

earthfrog said:


> It means 'becoming too common", in reference to their being easy to obtain and thereby selling for less and less money until they are dropped entirely. I got the reference from Amanda and Greg Sihler's book.


Well now we know the writers who are perpetuating that innacurate and missused term. I remember seeing that little coffee table book in Borders and it actually wasn't too bad of an effort.

But the term is silly and certainly unprofessional. Lets all keep it off the radar and out of print.


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## Fishman (Jan 16, 2007)

A "rat" implies a negative. Even if this frog becomes so common that everyone has one then the frog is a sucess. This is an amazing frog to see and should be on everyones list of must have frogs.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Having beautiful, reasonably-priced frogs that are easy to rear and breed should be the GOAL of the PDF hobby!!! Why so many seem to feel the need to chase down the latest and greatest (even if they are illegally taken from the wild) eludes me entirely (IMHO).

The only caveat should be that with all the breeding and selling by so many, there is little record keeping and bloodlines have become mixed. We should all look to those who have kept their records straight as the best source of animals.

Richard in Staten Island (Giant Orange, Regina, Azureus, Green Sips, Surinam cobalts, Alanis, Patricias, Citronellas, Oyapoks, Powderblues, Leucomelas).


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

jehitch said:


> From a retailer's point of view, if the existing market is beginning to get saturated, then either supply is going up, or demand is going down. In this case, I think that supply is increasing, as I see no decrease in demand. Azureus is still our best-selling species.
> 
> An increase in supply always drives down price, as consumers can shop around to find the best deal. I think this point has not been absorbed by some hobbyist breeders. When I post ads looking for wholesale lots of frogs, I always get responses that offer various species of frogs for as much or more than I retail them.
> 
> ...


I'm not so sure that driving the price down would cause them to become more desirable. In fact, I think the current market trend is to collect frogs as one would collect rare stamps or coins without holding one another accountable for the ultimate outcome of the species being sold or traded. A rare frog will always hold the higher price, which would naturally protect it from being dropped from the market. Consider the following explanation from page 4 of the ASN handbook:

"The commercial trade in wild amphibians continues to grow despite growing concerns over the long term health of wild amphibian populations. The uncontrolled, improperly managed, and even illegal harvest of wild amphibians threatens local amphibian populations and likely exacerbates efforts to preserve and recover populations threatened by other factors. In addition, as amphibian species become increasingly rare in the wild, their market value in the illicit amphibian trade is likely to increase thus, concentrating the threat of illegal harvest on those species and populations least tolerant of such losses. Much of this demand comes from the pet trade to supply animals to private collectors. When properly managed, the trade in wild amphibians does not threaten wild populations and may even provide conservation incentives to protect wild populations. However, the unorganized nature of the amphibian pet trade leaves the current system open to waste and abuse.
There is currently no system for insuring that amphibians collected and exported from the wild will form stable and sustainable captive populations that will continue to meet future demand. Often newly exported animals simply go to the highest bidder resulting in animals being placed in inexperienced and unskilled hands with the subsequent loss of the species or populations from captive collections. There have been numerous examples of populations of amphibians exported from the wild in fantastic numbers (exceeding tens of thousands of individuals) only to have them virtually vanish from captivity within a few years. This scenario creates a repeating cycle of market demand followed by loss of captive populations leading to renewed market demand for wild animals. Such disorganization also presents problems with regulating illegal trade because smuggled animals can too easily be incorporated into legally obtained captive populations with no way to trace their origins."


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

jmailhot said:


> I appreciate this board because it has reminded me to appreciate these animals more.
> I feel the same way about azureus as I do about red eyed tree frogs... For a while I ignored them because they are plentiful and don't cost a lot. However just because something is rare or expensive doesn't make it a better captive.
> I have kept both azureus and RETF in the past but let them go to move onto "better" species. Now I plan on getting both these species back into my collection because they are both excellent, beautiful captives.
> 
> on topic... other than having trouble selling offspring, what are the problems with a frog becoming a "rat frog"? something about bloodlines or loosing them to the hobby? we still get wild collected RETF's but we don't have that security with azureus.


I'm glad this thread did some real good. Not only does the indignance generated by the title 'rat frog' create a defensive reaction that may spark a market revival in these wonderful frogs, but it is causing general individuals to question the means and motives behind acquiring frogs. It is 'waking us up', if you will, to the indeterminable value of raising these animals to save them from extinction rather than solely for the sake of having a living bauble to boast about which is subject to being ousted for the 'next best thing'.

See my post above for an explanation of how WC frogs are endangered through current market practices. Problems with a frog becoming less desirable in the market include little to no breeding or trade and the subsequent 'dropping' of the animals altogether. I raise the issue again---not only do animals need to be tracked through the ASN's current system, but even 'layman' breeders need to be held accountable, and possibly only registered animals be sold. But then, if some are unwilling to register their animals with ASN, would that mean that some species would be lost forever? Should forums such as Dendroboard hold breeders accountable for their selling/trading practices?

Questions, questions, questions...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

earthfrog said:


> Should forums such as Dendroboard hold breeders accountable for their selling/trading practices?


I think we are all trying to be better. I have seen much more horrible commerical practices with the Reptile hobby and I just feel we (Froggers) are better than that.

We have to police ourselves, be passionate and vocal (ahem..).Thanks for adding your opinions and it sure sounds like you are "on board"


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

earthfrog said:


> I'm not so sure that driving the price down would cause them to become more desirable. In fact, I think the current market trend is to collect frogs as one would collect rare stamps or coins without holding one another accountable for the ultimate outcome of the species being sold or traded. A rare frog will always hold the higher price, which would naturally protect it from being dropped from the market. Consider the following explanation from page 4 of the ASN handbook:
> 
> "The commercial trade in wild amphibians continues to grow despite growing concerns over the long term health of wild amphibian populations. The uncontrolled, improperly managed, and even illegal harvest of wild amphibians threatens local amphibian populations and likely exacerbates efforts to preserve and recover populations threatened by other factors. In addition, as amphibian species become increasingly rare in the wild, their market value in the illicit amphibian trade is likely to increase thus, concentrating the threat of illegal harvest on those species and populations least tolerant of such losses. Much of this demand comes from the pet trade to supply animals to private collectors. <snip>"


Rare frogs will be in demand from existing hobbyists, but I'm talking about expanding the hobby to new hobbyists. That is where the greatest potential for growth exists, and why we opened a retail store. 

The hobby is reaching the point where the recording industry was shortly before the advent of the CD (yeah, I'm old enough to remember vinyl LPs). Most hardcore audiophiles had their record collection established, and when considering new purchases, often had to decide what to sell off to make room (or raise cash) for it. This drastically limited new sales of back catalog materials, as they were readily available on the used market. The recording industry solved the problem by inventing CDs, so the existing market had to repurchase its entire collection.

That's not going to happen in the frog-keeping hobby, as we have to deal with what nature provides, so we can't rely on constantly reinventing our product.

On the other hand, I have people walk into my store every day that have never seen a dart frog, had no idea that keeping them was a hobby option, and having discovered them, would love to start. In our experience, two interrelated factors stop them: The (incorrect) "common knowledge" about how difficult frogs are to keep alive; and the high price of a juvenile azureus (which, hands down, is the favorite species among prospective hobbyists in our store).

With most people having been "burned" at some point by a salesman's pitch about the ease of using a new product, there is only so much we can do to convince potential hobbyists about the ease of dart frog care. Driving the price down would most assuredly increase the desire among this group, which, we believe, is the future of the hobby.

Jim


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> I'm glad this thread did some real good. Not only does the indignance generated by the title 'rat frog' create a defensive reaction that may spark a market revival in these wonderful frogs, but it is causing general individuals to question the means and motives behind acquiring frogs.


I believe your response is a bit off the mark. The azereus price has dropped, but not a significant amount by those who do this for a living. $65 to $60 over the last three years is not that significant. The price will keep some people away; I for one have not seen azereus as a common carry item in a pet shop. Whether they are $60 or $35 from a hobbyist they are still selling. 

A frog of concern of becoming your “rat” is the Panamanian G&B auratus. An animal that is as low as $12 in quantity on price list. These guys by product to the boom in pumilio importations and have been showing up as of late in a few shops I visit. You have 100’s of these frogs available and often at the local shops for $25 and I have seen pet shops prices at $35. These frogs are showing up next to the White’s Tree Frogs, Green Tree Frogs, and Fire-Belly Toads. You have CB and WC frogs selling at similar prices on the retail market and large amount of WC dead. 




earthfrog said:


> It is 'waking us up', if you will, to the indeterminable value of raising these animals to save them from extinction rather than solely for the sake of having a living bauble to boast about which is subject to being ousted for the 'next best thing'.


I refer to the above mention of Panamanian G & B auratus. 



earthfrog said:


> I raise the issue again---not only do animals need to be tracked through the ASN's current system, but even 'layman' breeders need to be held accountable, and possibly only registered animals be sold.


Because registered animal practice has proven track record? Look at one largest pet market in the US, dogs. Those who choose not follow stringent registration practices choose to become APR in replace of AKC. Take a look in the classifieds. There are plenty of ways to see a registered dog. For the serious keeps of frogs and organizations (zoos) this may play a larger role in community of frogs but the likely hood of this becoming a industry standard is minimal. 

ASN or Frog Tracks your choice now, but take a look at dogs you have APR, APRI, AKC, UKC, CKC, ACA, ARU, and DRA just to name a few.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

jehitch said:


> Rare frogs will be in demand from existing hobbyists, but I'm talking about expanding the hobby to new hobbyists. That is where the greatest potential for growth exists, and why we opened a retail store.
> 
> The hobby is reaching the point where the recording industry was shortly before the advent of the CD (yeah, I'm old enough to remember vinyl LPs). Most hardcore audiophiles had their record collection established, and when considering new purchases, often had to decide what to sell off to make room (or raise cash) for it. This drastically limited new sales of back catalog materials, as they were readily available on the used market. The recording industry solved the problem by inventing CDs, so the existing market had to repurchase its entire collection.
> 
> ...


When you put it from that perspective, it makes sense. However, if we market frogs in pet stores, would the value in raising awareness of the frogs as pets outweigh the possible increase in smuggling that might affect the natural population?

These are some good ideas---and, my apologies to those of you who favorite Azureus. I would have generalized the post, but then the idea wouldn't have been as close to home with some of us.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

jehitch said:


> Rare frogs will be in demand from existing hobbyists, but I'm talking about expanding the hobby to new hobbyists. That is where the greatest potential for growth exists, and why we opened a retail store.


The education of new hobbyist is key and is on point. Having theses members work with frogs are good “beginners” or easy to care for will aid in the acquisition of CB animals that survive and not burning these folks with three week old imports that have been fed little and are stressed out of their minds. 



jehitch said:


> On the other hand, I have people walk into my store every day that have never seen a dart frog, had no idea that keeping them was a hobby option, and having discovered them, would love to start. In our experience, two interrelated factors stop them: The (incorrect) "common knowledge" about how difficult frogs are to keep alive; and the high price of a juvenile azureus (which, hands down, is the favorite species among prospective hobbyists in our store).


Azereus are the poster child of the Dendrobate hobby. Just as the Red-Eyed Tree Frog is the ambassador of the rain forest, people are enamored with azereus. How many are on the cover of books, used in print ads, and continue to represent this group of frogs.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

JJuchems said:


> I believe your response is a bit off the mark. The azereus price has dropped, but not a significant amount by those who do this for a living. $65 to $60 over the last three years is not that significant. The price will keep some people away; I for one have not seen azereus as a common carry item in a pet shop. Whether they are $60 or $35 from a hobbyist they are still selling.
> 
> A frog of concern of becoming your “rat” is the Panamanian G&B auratus. An animal that is as low as $12 in quantity on price list. These guys by product to the boom in pumilio importations and have been showing up as of late in a few shops I visit. You have 100’s of these frogs available and often at the local shops for $25 and I have seen pet shops prices at $35. These frogs are showing up next to the White’s Tree Frogs, Green Tree Frogs, and Fire-Belly Toads. You have CB and WC frogs selling at similar prices on the retail market and large amount of WC dead.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input. My concern was for this particularly unique frog and my desire to help secure it and similar species which are at their peak popularity now. You seem more knowledgable than me in terms of various market values of these frogs, and can probably help clarify these issues more than I can.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm not trying to get too far off topic, but I wonder if the economy could be causing issues with selling frogs at this time. I had 9 large, nearly adult size cobalts and couldn't sell any of them retail value, and I saw dozens of classifieds here on DB that were getting rid of cobalts and azureus for almost wholesale prices-- and these frogs do remain popular.

Of course, I only post frog classifieds on DB.

I know the economy has staunched further efforts for my frog keeping. When you graduate from college to an empty job market, frogs may be something you have to sacrifice first.
I'm noticing a lot of collection sell offs too.

With the amount of species now bred in the hobby, I think there is less of a chance for popularity swings to have full force effect like tricolor's situation. Just five years ago, I didn't see very many vents, pumilio, imitator, bassleri, terribilis, etc. for as low prices as they are now. With such a wide variety to choose from, I've seen more equilibrium than anything. The forecast that "thumbs are the frog of the future" did not come true. A lot of froggers have realized that tincs DO NOT necessarily make the best beginner frog species, and a lot of people are starting with thumbs.

Therefore, if that continues, then there won't be a "rat frog problem" becuase people won't just buy azureus or tincs to start frog keeping-- and then get rid of them once they become more advanced.


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

i dont agree that the Azureus is becomming a rat frog. it just happens to be a beautiful frog thats great for beginners. i do agree it is being mass bred so the price has dropped and has become extermely common but.. i dont believe it has become undesired. a beginner frog should be very affordable because it will bring new people into the craze. iv been keeping and breeding reptiles for years and just recently got into keeping frogs and i got to say they are my fav. so i firmly believe price keeps rare frogs rare and common frogs common like with all reptiles. if you was to take all Azureus and charge 100 per froglet and 200 per sexd adult. the table would surely turn. so no the Azureus in my beginner opinion is not or ever will be a rat frog. just look at how many expierenced keepers and breeders adore them not for price or popularity or profit..but for the beauty of the actual frog.


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

I also don't belive they are becoming a "rat frog." Azureus were my first frogs I kept, and am going to get some more for my work display tank. Hard to beat a large, outgoing, blue frog.
Scott


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## Jerm (May 20, 2008)

I think that azureus are the "gateway frog". Some pet shops that don't normally carry exotic frogs have gotten access to them and arent' as afraid of carrying them as they are of some other species making them available to people who don't frequent reptile shows or forums like this one. It can open up an entire new hobby to some, and it is so vivid that people who don't see frogs on a daily basis are amazed that they are real. It can be dangerous though because some people want them because they are so amazing and don't want to take the time to care for them correctly. i don't think that they are becoming the rats of the dart frogs, we are just so used to seeing them because they have been around for so long and are so common to us, there are so many people out there who don't even realize that these exist. I think that they are the ambassador of dart frogs.


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## MarcNem (Dec 13, 2008)

I voted "Yes, very much so". Even tho, I think the name "rat frog" sucks. Although these frogs are beautiful, they are everywhere! I remember when these frogs were $200! I seen them in White Plaines for $25. Check out page 76 of Jerry G. Wells, Jewels of the Rainforest. One of the pics on that page shows 7 adult Azureus in one page. Says "A rear sight sure to set the heart of the confirmed poison frog fanatic aflutter. Most hobbiest will never see even one Blue Poison Frog, let alone seven in one terrarium". Who knew?


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## Azureus84 (Nov 26, 2008)

They may be becoming "rat frogs" in the sense of becoming very common, but they became common because they're very desireable frogs to begin with. Regardless of supply and demand, Azureus shall remain among my favorites.


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## Chicago Frog Man (Mar 5, 2009)

I think like any hobby you should collect it because you enjoy it, not because it is solely unique or hard to obtain. I love my Blues, and I would keep them just for that fact. I still enjoy having guests over to my home that aren't involved in the hobby and they are freaked out by a blue frog! Unless of course, all of you are out there just to make a buck.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Since we're getting tied up in semantics, I've always heard the term "Junk Frog" to describe a species that was undesirable or difficult to sell due to widespread availability.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Anyone remember "The Blue Frog Page"?


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

I have to say very much so. I know it's affected my own decisions, I can imagine myself gawking at its beauty were it still a rare desirable frog. When something ends up in Zoomed ads and becomes the poster child of the hobby, it just loses it kick. I think it would be different if there were any varieties or subspecies, like tincs.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

What they're termed as makes little difference to me.
I've brought up the idea of a breeder's forum. Forum in it's true definition. Like a senate. But it's doubtful that will happen. Too many people who dive bomb into this hobby full force, breed the very easy frogs to death, sell them as soon as they breed , for whatever they can fetch, and then leave the hobby when it becomes a chore. There are too many people in this hobby who are just in it to make the quick buck, so the idea of really setting fair prices too make sure that not only good frogs are in the hobby for generations to come, but good froggers , is something yet to be guaranteed.
I've also said this a few times. If you find yourself with something that you know should be fetching more than it is, be it due to the economy or flooded markets (which is more than likely the case, I still sell frogs fetching ten times that of azureus froglets often) hold the frogs back. Adult , sexed frogs fetch much more than froglets. If you don't have the room to raise extra froglets, cycle down your breeders. Or change your husbandry to be able to take care to fruition what you work with.
Looking into my crystal I see that unlike the less colorful tricolors which were actually being given away when I got into this hobby because of the relative ease of breeding and lack of 'Azureus WOW color' , I doubt they will be in small numbers any time soon here. But genetically mis-managed is another matter. Already have much selective breeding such as "sky blue" and "fine spot" , not found as local traits in the wild...

Rich


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## switchblade5984 (May 9, 2008)

i am going to say no, locally here, there are 2 pet stores one sells them for 90! the other sells for 60...


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

A 'rat frog' is still a dart frog, and a dart frog will always be special.


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## thelegend76 (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm gonna say if it is, then I'm into rat frogs! Cuz they are still gorgeous looking. Here in kennewick and the surrounding areas, we have only one pet store that has had PDF's in & you guessed it, it was an azureus, I never did get to see it though, I think it died in the tank and no one ever took the add off. Sad, but that being said they wanted $100 for it.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Hi all, 

I began this thread, and I am glad to see that the majority response tends towards respect for these lovely creatures and their continued conservation. These animals depend upon us to care for their soon-to-disappear habitat in the wild, and we should never forget the awesome responsibility we have in that regard. We should always put the sanctity of life above our pocketbooks.


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## EXODUS1500 (Jan 19, 2009)

I dont think it is necessarily fair to call any frog a rat frog(unless maybe its a hybrid or something). Why be derogatory, why not call them a Labrador frog?


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## Knowledge (Jun 3, 2009)

In my opinion I think not, I'm new to the hobby and still in the process of obtaining my own dart frogs. I've thought of the Blues but not interested in that particular dart yet. Believe it or not maybe where some of U may be they seem common but to me here in Palm Beach County(South Florida) the Azureus are rare and in fact any dart in particular seems hard to find, according to my experience that is. Again I have said Florida has many people who own some pretty odd animals as pets and I'm surprised not too many people have dart frogs or the "rat frog." down here.


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## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

I admit to not reading all 9 pages, but I agree with the idea that dart frogs aren't common enough pets to have a "rat" species yet... Atleast in the UK. Most people I know don't know much, if anything, about Dartfrogs, let alone that they can be kept as pets. One of my friends even thought Dartfrogs spat poison. >_<


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