# 4 auratus in 20 gallon too small?



## milez803 (Jun 10, 2009)

i have 4 auratus in a 20 gallon tank, wasn't sure it was too small..it my first vivarium..that i got set up...just wondering would it be okay..especially every night ..i do hear the male making knocking noise....doesn't sound nothing like a bird call....if anyone could update me on this information..would be thankful...


milez


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

over night should be fine.. but in the long term.. to small!!

how old are they?


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## plant_geek (Apr 10, 2009)

I've been told that its fine for 3-4 auratus in a 20 gallon already on this board.


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

its just my opinion.. sure you may be just fine with 4 to a 20g.. but its really up to your individual frogs i guess. if you have 1 male to 3 females i would be hesitant to leave them in a 20 for long term, do to competition for food/ breeding. i would rather be safe than sorry but hey.. thats just me


if you did keep them in a 20.. and you got them breeding you will also come across egg eating between females.


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## milez803 (Jun 10, 2009)

i had them in a sump ...for about 4 month already..with 2 brom in there..they usually just hang around in each brom....2 tend to always stay together, but no egg..so i don't think it a mated pair...but every nite..i always hear the frogs calling..but i never see them fighting once..so i assume it okay..i'll try to get a picture as soon as possible...i just hope..20 gallon is good for 4 froggie..as a student..no money to build a larger tank yet...


Milez


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

Some intimidation can go unseen. If you see one not eating.. or getting skinny.. or hiding all day you would want to put it in it's own tank, but if you have many places to hide and its well planted, you will prablaby be okay. I dont mean to worry you.. but i have learned the hard way its better safe then sorry. so keep an eye out and act quickly if you have any doubt.



and about breeding.. you most likely will be able to get eggs out of them, but pulling the eggs before the other females eat them will be a challnge.


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## Allyn Loring (Sep 30, 2008)

I agree ,as soon as they reach maturity you will see issues,be prepared.I had four in a 75gal, and as soon as they started laying eggs the boxing gloves came out,I should have paid closer attention, but the lack of experience was there to notice anything beforhand.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Just keep an eye on them, I keep my auratus in pairs in 15's/10's but I do have 2 separate groups of 4 that have been together for a few years in 15's as well, but again it all depends on the particular morph and sex ratio.

What morph are they?

For the time being a 20 is fine and it might be fine in the future just watch and see what happens.

The knocking sound most likly was calling. Auratus and tincs have a buzzing call, not bird like call, if you go to mistking's website they have auratus recordings.


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

Just my experience, which is by no means vast....

I have 5 auratus in a 20l. They are fat and happy, and I get eggs every 10 days or so, when I keep the temps up. I have never seen the wrestling, and finally did see one of the males calling (yes, I've HEARD it before, but never saw one puff out the throat) then was able to watch the courting. I guess they're getting super bold! They eat heartily, I see all 5 and none are skinny. 

The tank is planted, but needs to be redone. It was quickly done with just hydroballs and sphagnum. The plants have thrived in that, believe it or not, I'm guessing as semihydroponics since there's no real substrate.

I can't say it WILL work for YOUR frogs. This is just my experience.

One thing that the Frog Gods and Minor Deities (  ) have repeatedly touched on is the actual area available to the frogs. 5 in a 20 that is not planted at all (ignore the stress factor of no hiding spots) would seem crowded, by what I've read. The surface area available just from the floor is limited. Add plants, cocohuts, etc. and you've added more surface area for them to utilize, therefore effectively increasing the square footage available. 

Again, that's MY interpretation of what I've read from experienced keepers, I may have interpreted their posts incorrectly.

Best of luck, whatever you choose to do with them!


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## jgibeau (Aug 19, 2008)

4 auratus should be fine in the tank. Just to make sure that things are fine though, double the food that is going in, to make sure. Plant the tank pretty heavily, so that line of sight and territories are established smaller. Otherwise, you should be fine.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I have 2.1 in 10g with no problems. I pull eggs about every 4 days.


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## araceae (Jan 28, 2010)

ok new to this forum, kinda not on the subject of auratus, but when you say you have 2.1 frogs... how many is that? is that 2 1/10 of a frog?? poor frog....

but IMO (with NO expirence on auratus) I think a 20 is too small also.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

JJuchems said:


> I have 2.1 in 10g with no problems. I pull eggs about every 4 days.


Hi Jason,

You are lucky to have a trio that gets along splendidly - hence the breeding success. Did you have them in that ratio and in that size viv from the get go?

Most newly acquired frogs that are set up for the first time and in the hands of new hobbyists, do not have that kind of success.

For new hobbyists, I tend to recommend a larger enclosure to account for the probability of intial husbandry mistakes as well as possible incompatability of the animals - less than ideal ultimate sex ratios, poor use of space for their first viv ect ect.

When asked, I tell new hobbyists to try for 10 gallons per frog, especially for the more or less larger or terrestrial species like Auratus or Tinctorius.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Did they start in that tank, no. I actually I had two established males in the tank. I pulled one and added a 1.1 pair from Patrick Nabors last month. I have had little issue with groups of auratus. The key is plenty of hiding and egg laying sights to allow the development of everyone to have a place. I have success with tinc pairs in 10g to 20g tanks. I currently have a 1.2 Cobalts producing in a 20g tub. I am actively searching for a male for two pairs, but I have had no major issue. 


I tend to recommend 10g for a few reasons. 

1. Monitor feeding. Often newbies want a hug viv, and jump frogs. They need to make sure frogs can find food Most of the time you want to ditch your first viv and redesign so 10g seem to last about year, then redesign. 

2. Cheap. you can build a decent first habitat with frogs for under $100. 

3. See your frogs develop.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I like 10 gallons too.

I have no problem recommending them as "first tanks", temporary enclosures, Q-tine ect...

I also recommend 10 gallons for froglets and for new hobbyist for exactly the reasons you do.....ease of finding food.

The only problem is that some new people don't transition to the larger vivs when the froglets are growing or that they have no concept of visual barriers, hides and retreats.....no idea about terracing and utilizing the rear and sides ect.

The 10 gallon glass "fish tank" is the most common and cheapest enclosure out ther bar none. It def has it's place in the hobby and works great in a vertical set up.

I would recommend a 20 gallon "long" and then 2 or possibly 3 adult frogs in an accepted breeding ratio.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I will be honest, I have an adult pairs of tincs in a 10g. I recommend nothing that I have not done myself. I am not going to be the one the soapbox and not practice what I preach ( I am not saying you do this Philsuma).

EDIT:
But keeping in smaller tanks does require more vigilance keeping clean, looking for signs of stress, and keeping territory.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

to be honest...I DO have husbandry issues that I utilize - which I would not recommend to others / new hobbyists.

I guess that does fall under practice what I preach...

but another way to look at it is "do as I say, not as I do". 

The thing I always keep in mind, is the level of experience of the poster / hobbyist. When the threads are full of new hobbyists, asking questions for their first frogs or first vivs....I always try to "adjust" my postings and recommendations to their level in order for ease or clarity of information and to give them the best chance of success.

I kept 2 different Azureus in those medium sized KIS plastic grow out containers for over a year and they ate fine and seemed healthy. I do think that I stunted their growth and runted them, even though I realize this is a touchy subject full of non scientific sites to back this up. But I honestly do feel that what I did was not optimal and not in the best interests of the frogs and I would never post on someone's questions thread with that - saying I did it and it "worked for me" and was "ok".

I just cringe when I see posts like "How many vents can I fit in a so and so tank"?

If the OP has a grasp of visual barriers, hides, retreats, egg deposition sites, terracing, background and side ultilization, depth planting and plant selection ect - then we wouldn't be having this discussion, but I'm pretty sure he's a new hobbyist without a firm grasp of those husbandry issues, which is nothing bad. It just means going "simple" is best at this stage. Less frogs is better than more frogs.

just my opinion, of course. One person's opinion.....


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## jgibeau (Aug 19, 2008)

Look, four auratus is fine in a 20. I used to do that many in a ten, and it was fine. By fine I mean it was fine for YEARS. Dirt or gravel or both, a bunch of pothos and or philodendron under a decent shoplight or whatever you are using, when you think you have fed enough... feed more, you are fine. Every week or so move the plants around, count, make sure they are fat. If one isn't, take it out. bada boom bada bing.

A pilot friend of mine told me once that most planes will fly themselves - Just take your damn hands off the stick, and leave it alone. Don't over plumb the situation. 

NO poison frog is so mysterious and or difficult that you have to be an "expert." I have been keeping and breeding poison frogs since 1996. I have pretty much seen it all, in one form or another. 9 times out of 10, heavily plant, heavily feed. Some need mist, some, not so much, but all need a humidity of 90% or higher. Follow those rules, and 95% of the time, you will be golden.

Everyone is going to give a different answer, or an answer that is overstated, or goes into too much depth. Just find out a couple of hard and fast, and then figure out where you are going to be able to fall in on the rest. No muss no fuss.

Your best rules for every tank you will ever setup: Feed the living crap out of them. Plant really heavy. Check them visually for weight every week. If you see one that does not look right, pull him/her out. The end.

Hope this helps.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jgibeau said:


> A pilot friend of mine told me once that most planes will fly themselves - Just take your damn hands off the stick, and leave it alone. Don't over plumb the situation.


 
Awesome!


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> I kept 2 different Azureus in those medium sized KIS plastic grow out containers for over a year and they ate fine and seemed healthy. I do think that I stunted their growth and runted them, even though I realize this is a touchy subject full of non scientific sites to back this up. But I honestly do feel that what I did was not optimal and not in the best interests of the frogs and I would never post on someone's questions thread with that - saying I did it and it "worked for me" and was "ok".
> 
> just my opinion, of course. One person's opinion.....


I would disagree. I have kept Tincs in smaller contains to raise them to adult size. I have had a pair be runted, but all others normal. There are several reasons your frogs could be stunted.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

jgibeau said:


> Look, four auratus is fine in a 20. I used to do that many in a ten, and it was fine. By fine I mean it was fine for YEARS. Dirt or gravel or both, a bunch of pothos and or philodendron under a decent shoplight or whatever you are using, when you think you have fed enough... feed more, you are fine. Every week or so move the plants around, count, make sure they are fat. If one isn't, take it out. bada boom bada bing.
> 
> Your best rules for every tank you will ever setup: Feed the living crap out of them. Plant really heavy. Check them visually for weight every week. If you see one that does not look right, pull him/her out. The end.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Good post John. Nice to see you on the forum.


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## jgibeau (Aug 19, 2008)

Thanks Jas. It's been a long long time, but I am glad to be back, and glad to have frogs again.


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