# Grow-out Tank Options



## Bigfrog (Dec 31, 2019)

What is a good option for a grow-out tank. I was thinking about a 5 gallon tank with a solid glass lid. Is that okay if there are no ventilation holes? Just open once a day to feed and allow air in.


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## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

I always just used Sterilite type containers of an appropriate size. As long as the lid fits well without enough gap for the frogs to escape, no problem.

Relatively cheap and lightweight.


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## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

I think I was using something in the area of 25 quarts for a good number of thumbnail froglets.

Also people use larger deli cup type containers with success.


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## Bigfrog (Dec 31, 2019)

What about the solid glass lid with no vent holes?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

What is the motive for having complete seal? I have always been curious, sincerely I ask, as moisture, water, is so easy to apply. 

Evaporation is an upwardly ascending law of earth & atmosphere, so I have always just found it a native compel to 'go along with the program' and not thwart it to achieve/sacrifice other principles. 

I am genuinely curious though I have read and had conversations with others who express adamant motive to hit particular RH readings in the _air_ of their environment for certain frogs, tarantulas, chameleons, and even some pythons. But I have kept these animals for many years, with good flourish and longevity, without doing the same. golden mantella froglets in a long, relatively low, completely screen topped viv would be my canaries in the coalmine of reference to this discussion format.

I am just wondering whether it is an across the board cannonized practice or 
if there is some other reason.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I just set up some 20 long (horizontally oriented) grow outs and am really pleased with them. I intentionally went with something low because it allows me to have more of them in the same amount of shelf space. Yes, from a dart frog perspective they are ugly  However, I think that maximizing floor space is more important for grow-outs than maximizing height. I have a raft load of nominal fantastica in one of them and they seem very happy. I have branches in there that they hop around on and they patrol the glass for flies regularly. I think that having more floor space increases the number of froglets I can keep in there more than height would. Regardless, this isn't their forever home and the goal is to be able to grow them up while monitoring the. 

I was using bins, but I got tired of not being able to see the froglets regularly to check up on them. My new grow-outs are in my office so I can watch the little fellas all the time. When I had bin grow-outs, I used the ones with a gasket in them, not to seal them off - I cut vents in the top and covered them with fiberglass screen - it was to reduce fly escapes. 

@Kmc, I have heard you talk about the ventilation aspect in several threads and it has made me curious. You talk about froglets needing more air. Relative to what? Are you assuming that most people have zero ventilation in their grow-outs? That is certainly not current best practice for dart frog husbandry in general. What are you basing your belief that people are not providing enough air to their froglets on? It is just not practical for many people to keep a completely screened-in top for their frogs. If I did that, my frogs would soon be dead because of the dry air in my house. I have vents on all of my tanks and the air exchange amount is controlled to balance for a humidity that is shooting for 60-80%. This is a dogmatic standard that has been with the hobby for a long time and could probably use some scrutiny, I will admit. However, we know that the frogs don't like it too dry and we know that 100% is dangerous because it denies the frogs the ability to use evaporative cooling (and isn't good for the vivarium in general). These questions are all in the spirit of learning, not to knock your assertions. I am just curious.

Thanks!

Mark


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I would not seal anything in this hobby...not frogs, not microfauna, just no.

What is the reason behind the complete seal? More humidity or don't wanna cut vents?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> I was using bins, but I got tired of not being able to see the froglets regularly to check up on them. My new grow-outs are in my office so I can watch the little fellas all the time. When I had bin grow-outs, I used the ones with a gasket in them, not to seal them off - I cut vents in the top and covered them with fiberglass screen - it was to reduce fly escapes.
> 
> @Kmc, I have heard you talk about the ventilation aspect in several threads and it has made me curious. You talk about froglets needing more air. Relative to what? Are you assuming that most people have zero ventilation in their grow-outs? That is certainly not current best practice for dart frog husbandry in general. What are you basing your belief that people are not providing enough air to their froglets on? It is just not practical for many people to keep a completely screened-in top for their frogs. If I did that, my frogs would soon be dead because of the dry air in my house. I have vents on all of my tanks and the air exchange amount is controlled to balance for a humidity that is shooting for 60-80%. This is a dogmatic standard that has been with the hobby for a long time and could probably use some scrutiny, I will admit. However, we know that the frogs don't like it too dry and we know that 100% is dangerous because it denies the frogs the ability to use evaporative cooling (and isn't good for the vivarium in general). These questions are all in the spirit of learning, not to knock your assertions. I am just curious.
> 
> ...


Hey Mark, wow this one of those topics I wish we could be at the Olive Garden for lunch, on both of our days off to mull over. (I got a coupon!)

I think the topic of air exchange, deserves its own thread and that in honoring Air it should be free of itchy debate and soar toward a sharing a collective reef of data and observation. 

I want to answer your questions, and let you know I have a reasonably good
ability to not assume things. 

It even feels problemetic (due to internet type come-off) to state the stuff the that has formed my practices, like, I have explored air exchange in a project with a physicist major friend who built tiny, streaming smoke bombs to test ventilation dynamics and air movement behaviors in various environment containers. All of this was manually recorded in hand script, in spiral notepad and hand replicated diagram. So, I kinda dont have a leg to stand on by many if not most current standards.

Another enhancing interest is in oxygen itself and its behavior in earth situ and in the bodies of organisms.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

But most of all have been the vigor I have observed in better ventilated circumstances and the lack of mortality where at least some would be expected given circumstances. This over years created a fulcrum of living data.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> I just set up some 20 long (horizontally oriented) grow outs and am really pleased with them.


I've been easing back into the hobby slowly and also set-up 20-longs for growing froglets; while my current species are 'terrestrial', after consulting with breeders and thinking about animal behaviour I would also do the same for frogs normally considered 'arboreal' -- the truth is they move in all directions and being able to traverse a horizontal stretch seems to me as important as any other direction, and these tanks are great for observation purposes.

They're maybe not so practical for large-scale operations but that's not something I have to worry about.

If I use bins in the future I'll opt for transparent or near-transparent models.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Olive Garden would be fun! That sounds like interesting stuff, Kmc. I would love to see the spiral notebook and the results of the air movement experiments. It sounds a lot more rigorous than what most of us go off of in our husbandry decision-making.

So, can you at least give us some guidance on what you consider to be minimum standards for air movement and availability? That might be a good place to start. I guess the kind of info I am looking for is: I usually use a 2" vent on the back of an aquarium lid for a horizontal tank (and I commonly cover this up partially to maintain humidity) - is even this too little air movement? Or are you more worried about folks that have completely enclosed systems without ventilation? An rough order of magnitude for what you consider to be problematic would be helpful. 

Thanks for sharing,

Mark



Kmc said:


> Hey Mark, wow this one of those topics I wish we could be at the Olive Garden for lunch, on both of our days off to mull over. (I got a coupon!)
> 
> I think the topic of air exchange, deserves its own thread and that in honoring Air it should be free of itchy debate and soar toward a sharing a collective reef of data and observation.
> 
> ...


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

You and I are on the same wavelength here, Fahad. I just hope it's the right one  The way I view raising froglets is that we are trying to get them grown up in as healthy a manner as possible and then move them to someone else who we have (hopefully) verified will be keeping them in appropriate conditions for adult frogs. I (and I am assuming you, too) don't have unlimited funds and space. Therefore, we are trying to maximize the number of froglets in a limited space. I think that this is easier when shooting for the largest footprint possible, rather than the shooting for the largest volume possible. I put lots of leaf litter, plants and other visible barriers in so that the frogs can avoid interaction as much as they want to. I think shorter tanks strike this balance better than tall tanks. Nothing wrong with having a tall tank, it just isn't as efficient on a shelf as a shorter tank. I am not large scale, but I can stack up a goodly number of froglets in between appropriate shipping weather windows and then I tend to get rid of most of them and start again. That's what works for me, anyway.

Mark



Fahad said:


> I've been easing back into the hobby slowly and also set-up 20-longs for growing froglets; while my current species are 'terrestrial', after consulting with breeders and thinking about animal behaviour I would also do the same for frogs normally considered 'arboreal' -- the truth is they move in all directions and being able to traverse a horizontal stretch seems to me as important as any other direction, and these tanks are great for observation purposes.
> 
> They're maybe not so practical for large-scale operations but that's not something I have to worry about.
> 
> If I use bins in the future I'll opt for transparent or near-transparent models.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I appreciate your response Mark. I cannot answer the minimum requirement question. I only know that case by case management toward enabling basic resources has its rewards and that i have observed, closely, thst it can be provided without the sacrifice of other quality of life conditions.

I have learned that working 'with' laws of natural dynamics is better than our human translation of them in spaces. And that an appreciation of captive animals living experiences are nuanced and are highly individually negotiable to the keeper.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

A practical simple thing for me, is to start out with alot (ventilation) and curb too much loss with partitions, plastic or glass pieces if needed, but I admit I do lean toward allowing as much passive exchange as I can. 

But its a rich topic I would love to take part in with me little keeper treks


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