# Albino inferalanis update pictures!



## Guest (Jun 14, 2005)

Sorry I haven't been here in a while, but have been busy. I just moved the oldest albino inferalanis into their first actual vivarium. Here are some pictures...They are getting so big  

Here's ******, the oldest...and unfortunately the smallest. He/she is still stunted but is doing well despite.









This is the one I am most proud of. This is the second oldest, Brighty. I love it's colors and they also seem to develope colorless patches, as you can see on Brighty's back. 









This is Diamond, the third oldest.









I am still getting the albinos, haven't counted lately, but I think I have 8-10 healthy froglets and a few more tads. Their parents are my best breeders and I've started to sell the normal colored froglets. Don't have any available now but I might in a about a month.


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## amphibianfreak (Jul 21, 2004)

I'm glad to hear they are doing well.


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## devin mac (Oct 4, 2004)

i'm still curious what the "community" thinks about these in general. The concept of selective breeding isn't exactly new to this hobby, but it seems as though there are times when it's used as quite a double standard.

That said, those are gorgeous frogs, and pretty unique


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2005)

Honestly, I don't care anymore what anyone thinks about them. Some people think they're great and they want some, some people think I'm going to destroy the hobby. Well, maybe someone will decide to start selectively breeding them and destroy the hobby, but I am not going to do that, and I think they're gorgeous so that's all i care about 

Becky


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't think there is anything wrong with them. It's not as if you were setting out to get albinos. Also, I don't think there would be anything wrong with breeding albino x albino to produce more. I highly doubt that dart frogs are going to go the way of the leopard gecko or the ball python, the color morphs are already amazing. I think it's a fear people shouldn't have. PDFs are a lot harder to care for and a lot less main-stream than Leos and Balls, I don't think there would be a demand.

Becky, put me on the wait list for a couple of these beauties if you decide to sell some


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2005)

What line are the original parents from?


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## frogsintn (Mar 26, 2004)

hey bec,
long time no hear from girlfriend. i was just talking about you the other day to josh d. we were wondering how those little guys were doing. i hope to get a few off you one day. hte sister i have is doing great but i don't think the male is up for getting the job done. i'm going to try and put a male from the louisiana aq. with her and see what happens. i did pick up some soild black auratus wc the other day. well i'm off for a bit.
rich


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

The parents are f1 siblings from a pair of my WC adults. There are 3 know breeders producing these and all have f1 siblings from the same line. Actually I just remebered one of the breeders lost their female so make that 2 producing them.


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## joshua_delancey69 (Mar 1, 2004)

Amen tell them Becky keep up the good work.......


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2005)

man you got really lucky my uncle had one for like 6 months and it was just as big as like the 3 months. Unfortunatly it dies like 3 weeks ago. How do you get yours to live so well?


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2005)

I think theres still too much colouration for them to be called Albino's, i would call them Hypomenalystic.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2005)

mouse said:


> I think theres still too much colouration for them to be called Albino's, i would call them Hypomenalystic.


Or perhaps Amelanistic (lacking melanin). Hypomelanism is simply _reduced_ melanin....those frogs above don't seem to have any.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2005)

The purple your seeing in the sides of the frogs is infact Melanin, its just reduced. My Hypomelanistic snakes still have the black bands on them, their just reduced to a purple, like the frogs above.

Yep, your close to Albino, but no cigar. Some nice Hypo's you have there, allthough id love to see a Ghost or Snow version.

On a personal note i think they look disgusting, but thats only a personal opinion. Id also be concerned about the UV levels thair subjected to, if any, and i would be more likely to go without UV light, and suppliment Calcium and D3 to avoid sun burning what must be the most delacate skin in nature, the melanin is there as a protective pigment above all.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2005)

Somebody obviously didn't pay attention in school.....melanin is _black_ pigment.....purple is the combination of red and blue. There is no melanin on those frogs. They are not Hypos, but Amelanistic.


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## Bry (Feb 18, 2004)

It's possible for a hypo to have no black on it at all. Maybe it's just the pictures but these frogs seem to have black eyes.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2005)

The eyes lookm purple to me....they seem to have the same exact color scheme as amelanistic California Kingsnakes....yellow/white/purple.


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## Bry (Feb 18, 2004)

Thank you for your input, O Wise One. Please...do tell us more, we are but lowly peasants.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2005)

Dude, your full of it. If they were amelanistic they would be even pinker. Ive got melanin in my skin, and im a pasty white Mofo. If the purple was missing (i.e. all the black) then they would be amelanistic or without melanin. They are not albino, whithout any pigment, as you can still see yellow, and purple (remenicent melanin). They are defenately Hypomelanistic, (reduced black pigment), which when diluted against pink skin (and it's the blood that makes it pink) you get a shade of purple.

But hey, ive only been breeding Hypo's, pin stripes, vanishing patterns and tri colour hondo's for the past 6 years so what do i know.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2005)

this is amelanistic, no black but plenty of red. thats all Amelanistic means is no black, so there would be no purple.










and an amelistic Cali King, no purple there.[/quote]


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2005)

Amelanistic
One of the most popular colour morphs. Also referred to as Albino or Red Albino. All black & brown pigments are missing. Amels typically have a pale orange background with deeper orange blotches. The first Amelanistic Cornsnake was a male and collected in North Carolina in 1959. It was first reproduced in captivity in 1961, the first Amelanistic cornsnakes were offered for sale at around $500 a considerable amount of money that many years back.


Anerythristic Type A
Typically a black and white snake with shades of grey, the Anerythristic gene stops the red and yellow pigments from showing. Saying that this gene is a bit more complicated as certain individuals have yellow pigment around the neck area, which maybe due to another yellow pigment gene being present. Wild populations of this Anerythristic snake occur in an area known locally as the Immokalee Triangle, this area is roughly between Immokalee, Ft. Myers and Moore Haven in SW Florida.


Charcoal or Anerythristic Type B ( Pine Island )
This Anerythristic gene gives the snake a bluish tinge around the head and eye area, they are paler than the Type A and have no yellow pigment around the throat and neck area. Breeding a Type A to a Type B will give you Anerythristic and Normal looking babies in a clutch, concluding that the Type B Anerythristic is also carrying the Type A gene. These snakes come from Pine Island off the coast of Lee County Florida. First discovered in 1984 through selective breeding by Bill & Kathy Love.

Hypomelanistic
Hypomelanistic snakes have a reduced amount of black, giving the snake a really bright appearance the eyes are dark ruby red. First seen in captivity in the mid 80’s the first Hypomelanistic cornsnakes were reproduced by George Van Horn’s Reptile World Serpentarium in St. Cloud Florida 


Just incase your guts havn't been completely spilled yet.


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## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

Technically doesn't albino just mean lacking normal coloration. When I used to do corn snakes some people called amelinistic red albino, anerythristic black albino, and the all white ones white albino. They all lack pigment. 
I think by just calling them albino it simplifies things and we all know what we are talking about.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2005)

Albino typically is void of all pigmentation entirely. What your describing by saying Red albino, yellow Albino etc, are actually only lazy descriptions of the forementioned terms. 

for example a red albino is a snake lacking all pigmentation except for the red. In corn snakes, which only have red, Brown/Black pigmentations you would technically be dealing with a Amelanistic. Or a snake lacking all black/brown pigmentation. You could have Amelistics that still have red and yellow pigments, because literally the term means without black.

If however it was just the red pigmentation missing it would be Anethuristic.

Where these crazy latin descriptions end is where you begin to get things like Snow, Blizzard, Ghost etc.

Pure Albinism is a very rare thing indeed, most albino's suffer from severe sun burn and possibly blindness due to them having no protection from the sun, and as a result dont usually last that long.

hope that helps.

If you really want to make your mind bend check out how you work out the genetics for these traits. Of course it would involve allot of breeding back, which in species such as snkaes and lizards where the native poulations are strong, represent little problems. Untill of course you start going to far, but they just become still borns with snakes. 

I would suppose that Frogs being generally more evolved than simple colubrids such as corns, rats and Milks, would probably suffer to a far more noticeable degree due to the diversity of behavour. Typically rearing young and the like which snakes don't do. This gives a much wider scope for genetic deterioration. And therefore is frowned upong when dealing with PDF's due to their delecate native poulations and low sustainability in the wild. 

Basically if you inbreed these frogs to draw out genetic traits youll end up with situations simmilar to the monstosity's people call 'pedigree dogs'. Which by the way each have inherrant health problems accosiated with each breed due to this very practice. 

This can be extrapolated even further by saying 'is it really neccessary to create more species or sub species of frogs when there is such a huge selection allready.

The general concencus among European Froggers is that we are the last line in the defence of these frogs should their natural habitat dissapear. The intention is to have captive populations of consisiting of conciencous husbandry and excellent breeding. Which is why you should allways get sepperate blood lines for a breeding colony.

And with the rate the rainforest is dissaprearing and the climate changing, i could see these frogs dissapear from the wild very quickly.

Then the price of the frogs will rocket, and every unscrupulous mug from here to timbuck two will be advertising, clean genetics and pure bloodlines. Even though they have probably been inbread from a badly orgainised breeding project many times over.

My suggestion to anyone wanting to screw with genetics and colour morphs would be to do it with something else. Leave the PDF's for people who love and appreceate them for what they are. Allthough mutants will allways crop up, do we really want to damage the genetic integrity of such rare, delecate and tiny creatures.


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## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

The albinos popped up on their own. Breeding for the trait is not screwing with genetics. Amphibians rarely have problems due to inbreeding or line breeding. Webster defines albino as "A person, animal, or plant lacking normal coloration". I think these frogs meet that defination. It seems like this trait is going to turn out to be simple recessive. Those genetics aren't complicated at all. If somebody looks into the mechanism at work and finds it is a true amelinistic that's fine. For now I think the simplest thing to call it is albino.


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## devin mac (Oct 4, 2004)

mouse said:


> If you really want to make your mind bend check out how you work out the genetics for these traits. Of course it would involve allot of breeding back, which in species such as snkaes and lizards where the native poulations are strong, represent little problems. Untill of course you start going to far, but they just become still borns with snakes.



umm. actually every single thing you mentioned is just a simple recessive genotype, or comination of a couple simple recessive genes. nothing mind bending about any of it. a simple punnet square can explain all of the approximate percentages and genetics of anything you talked about. 

get off your high horse and stop trying to pee in someone's cornflakes. even if people were breeding for these like crazy, it wouldn't be very different from people breeding for 90% orange galacs, or blue-leg vents...


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2005)

> umm. actually every single thing you mentioned is just a simple recessive genotype, or comination of a couple simple recessive genes. nothing mind bending about any of it. a simple punnet square can explain all of the approximate percentages and genetics of anything you talked about.


Yea, ok, so you know what im talking about. But thats not the mind blowing element i was refering to. More the de-mystification of reproduction. But theres a big difference between knowing what you could get, and getting only what you want. I suspect that the albino's above did come from a natural occurance, origionally. But to have regular parents produce egg after egg of albino offspring. I mean who you trying to kid. Not unless you had perhaps 20,000 frogs of the same species, then maybee you might get two.

A single albine mated with a clutch brother/sister would produce clutches that would consist of both visuals and hetrozygous, perhaps, but proving that het is very tricky, knowing that you had frogs of both vis and het parents, it would then be a matter of pairing two visuals from that clutch to ensure an allmost 100% Albino breed. You would then have to spend the rest of your efforts hunting down other albino's to continue the breeding project further, as realisticly even with snakes problems start to crop up, infertility being the first.

so personally i dont think for one minuite that the two forgs above 'happend by chance'. allthough the relation to the one that did is close, a little too close.



> get off your high horse and stop trying to pee in someone's cornflakes. even if people were breeding for these like crazy, it wouldn't be very different from people breeding for 90% orange galacs, or blue-leg vents...


Only in the sence that an orangy Galac is not an occurance in 20,000 and thats a very rough guess. Its very easy to find two individuals of seperate parantage who both have a greater propensity for orange. But to find two albino's of seperate parentage, erm... yea

Hey look man, inbreedings not for everyone but i guess it worked out ok for you. Give my regards to your mum/sister when you see her. I mean hey, whats an extra nipple between freinds.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2005)

If i wanted to piss in his cornflakes id have asked mullet boy where he saw a tri coloured kingsnake. So there


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2005)

mouse said:


> If i wanted to piss in his cornflakes id have asked mullet boy where he saw a tri coloured kingsnake. So there


First of all...I don't have any hair, let alone a mullet.  Second of all....YOU obviously have never seen any of the Mountain Kingsnakes....they're ALL tri-colored, including the amelanistic versions of them.



> You would then have to spend the rest of your efforts hunting down other albino's to continue the breeding project further, as realisticly even with snakes problems start to crop up, infertility being the first.


Since when does linebreeding snakes for morphs cause infertility? I'd LOVE to see any evidence of this. Yes, inbreeding after several generations if not done responsibly can cause some problems....but if you are trying to prove a morph out, its the only way to do so sometimes.


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## AlexanderStubbs (Feb 18, 2004)

> even if people were breeding for these like crazy, it wouldn't be very different from people breeding for 90% orange galacs, or blue-leg vents...


I don’t really have much to add to the discussion on albinism, but this is very different from the galacts and vents. 90% orange galacts were collected from a different locale, and are known as a different morph. The same is true with blue legged vents. They were all brought in on different importations of frogs, and you can find them at separate locales in the wild.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2005)

Alright, every time I post something about these guys a fight ensues about whether or not they should be alive, whether or not I should sell them, and now whether or not they are albinos. And then there's even a comment about whether or not they happened by accident. As Rob said in his post, my pair is from wild caught adults. I'm sure he did not go out into the rainforest searching for inferalanis individuals. And as far as I know, he didn't know the babies of these wildcaughts were going to produce this new color, whatever it is, until a few of his customers reported it. Yes, my pair are siblings, but the only reason I let them breed in the first place is because the inferalanis I had from another bloodline died. So I'd say this was chance.

Now, I don't know what these froglets will cause after they are sold, and I don't know exactly what to call them because I did not go to school for genetics....but I do know if it keeps causing fights I am not going to post updates on them anymore. Maybe I will just start a mailing list for people who are actually interested.


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## joshua_delancey69 (Mar 1, 2004)

Becky, 
You are totally correct.....but its not just your postings that are getting flamed......if you cant add positively to a post leave it along and It seems that there are tons of new people on Dendroboard that all they can do is Flame people........Dendroboard has been running for about a year and a half and these issues have only recently rose to the surface.......and in almost every post it is the NEWBIES that are causing the fuss.....I hate to put it that way but its the truth......JOE has even had to consider other methods of operating because people cannot act in a mature manner......This fourm is ment for a nice place to disscus, sell, buy, and just hang out with fellow froggers.......the newbies need to realize this and cut out the non-sence........if you want to start arguments or flaming take it somewhere else or make it private


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*albino*

This is insane, you bred Tincs of the same morph which were siblings. Most frogs bred in captivity are products of siblings, though many do make an effort to get unrelated animals this many times is just not possible or affordable. You did nothing wrong and should not apologize or care what people say in commentary, if they think this is wrong THEY ARE IDIOTS!!!.
For several years I was the only one to get a viable group of yellow Fantasticus. Their offspring is the only bloodline being propogated in the US, which I believe is still the case. They are snapped up the minute they become available. They produced albinos but unfortunately they were not viable but what if those albino offspring had been their only viable offspring. Should I have not bred them because they were a natural occurring mutation of a normal morph?
Wisconsin Frogger keep us updated as they develop, this is new information for most of us and that is what this forum is about. People complaining about there existance obviously don't have a clue. A natural occuring mutation is special, treat it as such.
Mark


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2005)

Many times different color variations (albinism and the other variations discussed earlier) will occur in the wild, though due to natural selection, they may die because predation or other such causes. Though pdfs are poisonous in the wild, their colors often ward off predators, and a frog lacking color might not have that sort of advantage. I don't know, but I don't think it's wrong that it happened, it deffinantly occurs in the wild. And seeings how people took frogs from the wild to start this hobby, they would not have been in the wild to be killed anyway. It's natural for this to have happened, I don't see why it would be wrong. The frogs were from the same area, so it's not like hybridizing frogs that would not have met up in the wild normally. I might be a newbie with all this, and I haven't had any frogs of my own, but I don't see any reason for flaming. I'd deffinantly like to know what happens with these frogs in the future.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Since I haven't thrown in my 2 cents about this in a while.....

Becky/WiFrogger, I agree with what you, mark, and josh have said. You didn't do anything wrong, it just happened.

As for the disagreement on the term albino..... "albino" is a very, very loose term sumed up by the webster's definition that Mike provided. Its a non-scientific catch all term for the average person, not a scientific term to describe the level of melanin in an animal (and unless you are a PhD genetisist, I wouldn't be comfortable using these terms on them, the terms are becoming psuedo-scientific). Personally, it seems like it would be incorrect to call them anything more scientific than an "albino". Yes, we normally think of them as white with red eyes, but there are many levels of albino.

Half the controversy in these critters is what to call them it seems.

As for the purple in question.... it could be highly reduced melanin or iridiphores.... iridiphores generall look much more metallic glittery. Or is that pigment in the skin or is the skin clear and we are seeing pigment of the internal organs (which could still be normal colored) through the skin? I've yet to see one in person or really get someone's answer to this question.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Becky,

A request to keep the board updated on your frogs. You aren't responsible if a few individuals want to debate semantics or whatever. It's interesting to say the least. Thank you.

Bill


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2005)

> Yes, my pair are siblings, but the only reason I let them breed in the first place is because the inferalanis I had from another bloodline died. So I'd say this was chance.


And this is allways how bad husbandry sneaks into the breeding pool as a whole. Personally i feel the situation should have been:

'I cant continue my Inferlanis breeding project untill i can source another unrelated bloodline'

which i feel is responsible hubandry. 

Then you get what actually happend.

'I cant find any inferlanis to continue my breeding project, oh well incest it is then, ooooh look, Albino's'


Think there might be a conection between inbreeding and mutation?

And you wonder why people get upset when you present them with a clutch of Hypomenalistics?


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2005)

> Half the controversy in these critters is what to call them it seems.



Not at all, as you too have also noticed they have purple, so they can only have reduced melanin, therefore Hypomenaistic. True Albino's could appear, but the breeding involved considering the subjects would in my opinion be irresponsible, and detrimental to the hobby as a whole considering the knife edge CITES keep these animals on. Just think, Pumillo's could appear as CITES II, any minuite, but as you may or may not be aware, individuals such as the breeders who produced the Hypo's above would have considerable trouble obtaining them, as people tend to be a little more gaurded, and protective of the rarer species. Bet you wont find any Hypo Pum's? Infact bet you wont find anyone pairing Pumillo Siblings!!!


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## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

Mouse,
Can you site some studies that would indicate their are genetic problems with inbred frogs that are F1 or F2 from the wild? I don't think so. I've never seen any. These frogs are so few generations from wild caught I would not call them inbred. I think line bred might be more appropriate. The Brooklyn Zoo did some studies years ago and line bred D. auratus for many generations. Their conclusion was their were little or no genetic defects from inbreeding in these frogs. What are often thought to be genetic problems in hobbyist frog are actually husbandry problems. Inbreeding problems occassionally pop up in amphibians but rarely do.
Some types of albino amphibians do have health problems but most in the hobby have the same vigor as wild type. It is a little early on for these albino inferalanis to be certain no health problems will show up. So far it appears their won't be any.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Albino*

From what I understand these are F1 or F2 animals, lack of genetic diversity would not be a problem with these animals.
I did notice there seemed to be more of an arguement over what they would be labeled than the actual animals themselves, that I like.
Mark


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## neilr (Oct 9, 2004)

I am confused about the whole inbreeding thing and am just putting in my 2 cents. This is aimed at what someone said about getting another bloodline. Some species of frogs in the US are all "inbred". My example would be red amazonicus. I have a group of these and did a little research before I bought them. I came to the conclusion that all the red amys in the US hobby are from wild cought parents from only one breeder. So considering this frog is pretty much established now and all frogs are related I would say inbreeding is not that big of an issue. 

Neil[/quote]


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2005)

> And this is allways how bad husbandry sneaks into the breeding pool as a whole.


I'd just like to say here, on behalf of everyone else on the board, that this is not a place to unsult people or what they do or get into fights over who's right. I'm sure the creators of the board would agree. This is a place to discuss, in an adult manner, our wonderful hobby. If you don't think someone's doing something right, give them your opinion, fine, you are entitled to it. But there are so many different ways of doing things and morals in this hobby, that you cannot sit here and declare you're right. I respect your opinion, I can see where you're coming from, but because of your attitude about it, I do not want to discuss anything with you. I would not declare on a public board that YOU had bad husbandry even if you were feeding your frogs adult crickets! I would just politely tell you what I think works better. I'm sure that's how all beginners and even advanced hobbyists would like to be treated and it's how people learn the right things to do. I know I would have totally given up on this hobby if I was constantly flamed for doing stupid things when I first started...which I admit I did. But because of the other wonderful people I've met, I think I am doing 100% better than I was 4-5 years ago. And you know what? Maybe the people who helped me a lot will get to be the first ones to have one my inferalanis babies 


And to everyone else...I will keep posting on here about the albinos because a lot of you are interested. As far as the "what to call them" discussion...I'm sticking with albino. I really don't know what they are. They are quite confusing, considering their legs are truly albino and the rest of them have color. There was a comment somewhere on here about whether the purple is the skin or the organs...it is the skin, because the purple stops in an abrupt line right before the legs. So there must be some melanin. They also had black spots when they were tadpoles. The eyes, since you can't really tell from here, are black, but you can see through the pupils. I'm thinking that's just because the light is showing through the rest of their body.


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

Just to add a bit on the description. In ours, the eyes intially appeared black, but when you look closer they actually reflect red (try holding them to the light or shining a light into / near their eyes). If you hold them up to a light and look at their legs you can see right through them to the bones and veins. It's pretty cool if you ask me.

As for UV - Our albinos are on the same rack as the rest of our frogs, under the same lighting conditions as the rest, getting treated the same way as the rest and all are doing well. As a matter of fact the two tanks to the right of the albinos are normal colored siblings and the one to the left is a breeding pair of Infer-Alanis. My point is that they aren't getting any special treatment and show no negative signs. 

On a side note - I personally think they are beautiful.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Mouse,

Let me fill you in on the background of these Infra-Alanis. Both Becky and ourselves have pairs that produce ALBINO froglets. I purchased my pair knowing the linage. The parents of my pair are WILD CAUGHT. Therefore, I am breeding F1 siblings. They had bred before but there hadn't been anything but normal offspring (tads). 

When we started getting strange looking tads, I contacted the person I purchased them from as well as the breeder and the info above was verified. 

Becky's frogs are from the same parents. The breeder sold offsping to another breeder in her area and she purchased them from him. 

We have spoken to a number of people and we have arrived at the conclusion, the offspring are T positive Albinos. 

Melissa





mouse said:


> > Half the controversy in these critters is what to call them it seems.
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all, as you too have also noticed they have purple, so they can only have reduced melanin, therefore Hypomenaistic. True Albino's could appear, but the breeding involved considering the subjects would in my opinion be irresponsible, and detrimental to the hobby as a whole considering the knife edge CITES keep these animals on. Just think, Pumillo's could appear as CITES II, any minuite, but as you may or may not be aware, individuals such as the breeders who produced the Hypo's above would have considerable trouble obtaining them, as people tend to be a little more gaurded, and protective of the rarer species. Bet you wont find any Hypo Pum's? Infact bet you wont find anyone pairing Pumillo Siblings!!!


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Some other pictures*

n/a


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

To even suggest that knowingly breeding F1 siblings is irresponsible simply shows a lack of knowledge about amphibian husbandry and basically discounts the credibility of any information you have given.

Becky, thanks for the updates and please continue.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I don't know if this has been covered before, but I would be interested to see if, when these frogs get to breeding age, whether or not they will use any kind of visual selection when mating. Will they have a predisposition towards breeding with other albino adults or with normally colored frogs? Will a normally colored Infer Alanis be receptive to breeding with an albino specimen?


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

That would be a very interesting experiment.

I guess you can put a normal male and an albino male and albino female in a tank and see which male the female likes most.

You can also put an albino male with a normal male and normal female to see what happens.

Not sure about putting multiple females together. Although if the tank is large enough and monitered well..................

Of course we are assuming they will actually breed. There is nothing to say they will or will not. To my knowledge none of these guys have gotten old enough to breed yet, although some of ours are getting old enough to guess sexes.

hmmmm I guess we still have a few months to figure this one out. Becky do you have enough room to do an experiment like this?


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

mouse said:


> > Infact bet you wont find anyone pairing Pumillo Siblings!!!


Actually I guarantee you will. With the rarity of most pumilio morphs, it is literally impossible to acquire multiple bloodlines. Majority of the rare frogs are line bred for this reason and because of unknown locality data.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2005)

I don't have a whole lot of room right now to experiment with breeding the two different colors, but I will definately think about it eventually. I don't have anyone anywhere near breeding age anyway. I only have 3 subadults who are living together in a tank. The rest are small froglets. Thanks for all the support by the way. I don't believe any of the crap being said, it just pisses me off that every time I post about them, someone starts a fight. That's not what we're supposed to be about. And I'm glad for the most part that we're not. 

Becky


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## George B (Apr 2, 2005)

Mouse, Not only won't you find any literature on inbreeding depression in dart frogs but I'm unaware of a single example of inbreeding depression for any vertebrate living in a "wild" environment. Further the main argument against inbreeding is that it may and I say may reduce a populations chance to persist when challenged with new stochastic events in the "wild". In short there is nothing wrong with inbreeding frogs especially when their main purpose is the pet trade. If anything inbreeding has the potential to make them better adapted to the captive environment and reduce the number of homozygous lethal alleles in the population. I personally work with a dessert fish that routinely is knocked back to less than 50 indiviuals yet the population quickly rebounds to over a thousand when times are good. George


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