# importing from Europe



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

How much does it cost to *legally* import frogs from Europe? What type of paperwork must be filled out?

I do not have the large sum of money or time for it right now, but I was curious. I know they work with several lowland atelopus species in Europe.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I would love to work with atelopus. One of the first things is finding some one who can export and has what you are looking for. I have not done this myself, but a former member of our herp society has and he no longer does because of deals gone bad in eruope with snakes. 

Here is a little on the US legal side:
US Fish and Wildlife Permits - Import and Export


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

There was a post about this about a month or so ago. Seems like there were a lot of hoops to jump through as well as quite a lot of money. It would be awesome to get Atelopus over here, but it sounds like a pretty long and expensive endeavor.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Some of the lower altitude Atelopus (A. spumarius hoogmoedi) were imported into the USA in fair numbers. There were issues when further imports were tried. Unfortunately (as with Europe) they were very male heavy (the ratio was often greater than 4 males to each female) and they often arrived badly nose rubbed and emaciated. As the females were collected from the breeding streams, they often had little in the way of fat reseves and retained eggs. This significantly affected thier survivial as most had died off within 6 months to a year. There are a few males still around but I have been unable to locate any females. (as I type this, one of the two males I have left is calling). 

This is not the first species that has come into the trade in some numbers only to disappear.. Melanophryniscus stelzneri has also disappeared even though it was captive bred for a while.... 

There are a lot of hoops to jump through if you want to import animals from Europe and a lot of money can easily be lost. Back in the old days, some of the original dendrobatid imports from Europe did very poorly.... 

Ed


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

I think it would be awesome if there was a way to get a few experienced keepers together and try to legally obtain atelopus from Europe. If several people went in on it together than it could be less expensive, plus having the animals spread out could highten the chance of success with these species. Maybe if we did it as a team project/venture it would be easier to get and maintain them. During the times I've kept varius Atelopus, it was hard to find anyone else that either had them or would give out any helpful knowledge in keeping them. I just think it's time the US has a chance to work with them, at least from a conservation standpoint.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

As far as the original question, it takes a considerable amount of time, effort, and cash to track down and bring in animals from across the Atlantic. Should one decide to attempt it, they should be willing to accept a 100% loss on the shipment (both in regards to money and survival rate of frogs).



> I just think it's time the US has a chance to work with them, at least from a conservation standpoint.


Josh, I don't think I understand your logic. Assuming that the people who have been keeping them have accrued experience/knowledge during the time they've been working with them...why would it be time for us to work with them, basically having to start at the beginning of the learning curve? It sounds akin to the attitude of "Those Colombian biologists should send their frogs up here so we can work with and finally conserve them."

Given the large numbers of mortalities that can result from frogs being shipped and imported, from a conservation standpoint (trying to sustain an already diminished number of captive animals)...would this really be the best way to go?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> How much does it cost to *legally* import frogs from Europe? What type of paperwork must be filled out?
> 
> I do not have the large sum of money or time for it right now, but I was curious. I know they work with several lowland atelopus species in Europe.


To give somewhat of an idea (from vivaria.com):

"The minimal airfreight prices (IATA) per shipment 
are approximately € 137,- depending of destination. The price of shipping is by volume, not by weight. Unfortunately, US clearance and handling costs are rather expensive, some airports ask up to € 250,- per shipment. In light of these amounts, it becomes rather expensive to ship two or three frogs. The larger the shipment, the more cost effective your order will become."


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

I have never imported anything, but this may help. This is how you obtain USFWS permits needed.

Importing and Exporting Your Commercial Wildlife Shipment

Import license
http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-3.pdf

Since you live in Kansas you may need a designated port exception port permit.
http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-2.pdf

but here are the designated ports.
FWS Law Enforcement Designated Ports

You must also fill out a declarations page, so your import can be released from USFWS.
http://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/3-177-1.pdf

As far as fees...
http://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/50cfr14.94 on fees.pdf

Now this does not include all CITES paperwork. I am still trying to figure out that one.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In addition to those links, if you are bringing in above a certain dollar value you will probably have to employ a broker to bring them through customs. 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Brian, that's good to know if one ever wanted a large breeding group of animals for a business.

Hasn't anyone imported CB atelopus flavescens, barboutini, and spumarius yet? I'm surprised none of the long term froggers like Sean Stewart, Patrick Nabors, or Mark Pepper have made an attempt.

I've been seeing a European bloodline of E. anthonyi offered on kingsnake and by SNDF.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

It cost around $1400 before you even pay for a frog.
Brian


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Brian Ferriera said:


> It cost around $1400 before you even pay for a frog.
> Brian


Can you break that down? I don't think it is even near that amount, but I am probably wrong.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Jason said:


> Can you break that down? I don't think it is even near that amount, but I am probably wrong.


Sorry I got this second hand from a friends who was considering it 
Brian


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Hasn't anyone imported CB atelopus flavescens, barboutini, and spumarius yet? I'm surprised none of the long term froggers like Sean Stewart, Patrick Nabors, or Mark Pepper have made an attempt.



Are there substantiated reports of cb of those Atelopus? If there are that would be a significant change in the history of that genera. Other than A. zeteki (which has a tadpole survival rate ranging from 0% to 80% per clutch) and the putative A. varius (similar to zeteki), the other Atelopus have been very difficult to reproduce. 
There was even a conferece several years ago at ABG over the failure to get other species of Atelopus to reproduce that had a lot of European representation..

Ed


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

$1400 dollars? I could get CITEs papers and pay for an inspector for like $150. I'm not sure what they have to pay in Europe but I don't think Mark Pepper pays much for papers at this point. It may be because he does it so often or that he has a specific permit to export (could be wrong). If CITEs worked the same way, I wouldn't imagine it being more than the $150 I'd have to pay here.

Shipping from Europe was (last time I checked) roughly 2-3x as much. So all in all I 'would have assumed' that it wouldn't be more than approximately $500 for the papers and shipping of a decent sized amount of frogs (still not cheap in my mind). Also, the headache involved with the paperwork can be massive and the time taken to get the papers submitted and approved can take several months. It's a long process and does cost a bit of money but I never thought it was anywhere close to $1400.

Anyone feel free to break it down and prove me wrong as I'm curious, myself.

-Nish


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Now that I think about it Ed, I'm not sure. However, I could have swore I saw atelopus advertised on European sites, but not 100% sure now.


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

With the value of the dollar vs the euro, now is a great time to try importing from Europe.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Dutch Rana recently (about 5 months ago) got in two species of Atelopus they were selling to the general public. There were posts made here and on Dendroworld about it.

The species were spumaris and barbotinii.

-Nish



Rain_Frog said:


> Now that I think about it Ed, I'm not sure. However, I could have swore I saw atelopus advertised on European sites, but not 100% sure now.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> Josh, I don't think I understand your logic. Assuming that the people who have been keeping them have accrued experience/knowledge during the time they've been working with them...why would it be time for us to work with them, basically having to start at the beginning of the learning curve? It sounds akin to the attitude of "Those Colombian biologists should send their frogs up here so we can work with and finally conserve them."QUOTE]
> 
> Ron, I agree with alot of what you're saying. You are probably right about the shipping causing too much stress to risk the death of an endangered animal, I lost a whole group of A. spumarius hoogmoedi that way. I'm not suggesting bringing them over here to satisfy the demand of collectors and the pet trade. I know there are quite a few people in the US that have kept these species in the past, or do so now. I had two males of an unknown Atelopus species that did fine in the terrarium for many months, but it was impossible to find a female over here. It would be great if the people that do have them could get the breeding stock they need regardless of what country they are in.
> 
> There have been many advancements in amphibian husbandry and breeding in the last ten years, and I think that many of the threatened species would do well in the hands of certain people. For the most part US and Euro vivarium systems are pretty much side by side in terms of technology and capabilities. I for one would love to have another chance to work with them in a temp controlled stream-side system. Look at how the success with pumilio has changed in the last few years vrs when they were being imported. But I guess there probably aren't enough CBs in Europe to take the risk yet....is there any info on what species are really being kept/bred over there? Anyway, I apologize for vearing off the topic of the OP's thread.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

JoshH said:


> ....is there any info on what species are really being kept/bred over there?


Read my post before yours for a couple.

-Nish


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JoshH said:


> skylsdale said:
> 
> 
> > Josh, I don't think I understand your logic. I know there are quite a few people in the US that have kept these species in the past, or do so now. I had two males of an unknown Atelopus species that did fine in the terrarium for many months, but it was impossible to find a female over here. It would be great if the people that do have them could get the breeding stock they need regardless of what country they are in.
> ...


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> But I guess there probably aren't enough CBs in Europe to take the risk yet...


That was a large part of my point. There may be some folks in the states who could do well with some Atelopus spp. (although I'm skeptical given even zoo's inability to breed much beyond zeteki and varius)...but especially if the viv technology, etc. is pretty even, I don't see there being a justifiable reason to risk losing even more of an already minimal stock of animals. Rarer animals like this are probably better left where they are for the time being.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ed, explain to me again how this "prolapsing the eggs" happens.

Are you saying that atelopus will die if they DON'T spawn if they're cycled?

And, not to stray too far off topic, but has there been any work done to negotiate with the Panamanian government that surplus zeteki from zoos be released into the private hobby?


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

One problem is that AZA will only release animals to another AZA facility.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> And, not to stray too far off topic, but has there been any work done to negotiate with the Panamanian government that surplus zeteki from zoos be released into the private hobby?


Ed will no doubt be able to speak better to this than I will...but from what I understand, we can pretty much count on that never being a possibility.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Ed, explain to me again how this "prolapsing the eggs" happens.
> 
> Are you saying that atelopus will die if they DON'T spawn if they're cycled??



Yes and it has even been reported with Zeteki and the purported varius and there are anecdotal reports in other species in addition, these toads will also form adhesions if the eggs are retained too long (somewhere around here I have pictures of this with a zeteki). 




Rain_Frog said:


> And, not to stray too far off topic, but has there been any work done to negotiate with the Panamanian government that surplus zeteki from zoos be released into the private hobby?


Panama has indicated that they have absolutely no interest in even allowing them to be released to non-AZA institutions much less to the private hobby at this time. Multiple reasons are given which I am not going to get into here. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JJuchems said:


> One problem is that AZA will only release animals to another AZA facility.


If you are referring to Atelopus zeteki this is correct as the CITES permits along with the agreement with Panama prohibit thier release but if you are discussing other animals that are not dangerous or endangered then that is a zoo by zoo decision and can depend totally on who is in charge of the animals as well as the registrar. Some Zoos sell or trade animals with private individuals or conduct breeding loans. It depends totally on the Zoo and the animals involved. There is a lot of paperwork and potential of site visitations as well as supportive documentation but it does occur. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ed said:


> If you are referring to Atelopus zeteki this is correct as the CITES permits along with the agreement with Panama prohibit thier release but if you are discussing other animals that are not dangerous or endangered then that is a zoo by zoo decision and can depend totally on who is in charge of the animals as well as the registrar. Some Zoos sell or trade animals with private individuals or conduct breeding loans. It depends totally on the Zoo and the animals involved. There is a lot of paperwork and potential of site visitations as well as supportive documentation but it does occur.
> 
> Ed



And this is where the problems lie. Too much red tape to get anyone really INTERESTED and CAPABLE to ever want to undertake such a project.
We MAY let you try and save frogs if you put years into ASN/TWI and play by the rules(paperwork) the whole time and PROVE you can make the marathon. Takes people like me right out of the equation. It`s hard enough to get a lot of these animals breeding if your only 1 person let alone document everything and wait till your called upon. Esp if your trying to manage the habitat and save the frogs right around your house. Then if no one is buying you just have that much MORE work to do taking care of unwanted frogs. Paperwork kinda takes a back seat to taking care of said animals. This is why AZA`s have the paperwork done but I have to keep supplying them animals from the original breeders after they`ve lost theirs.
Best of luck.


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

The import Atelopus that came is over here haven't done very well for many people. Many have died and the guys still working with them haven't had any luck breeding them as far as I know. I sure wouldn't recommend any of these Atelopus for export to the US. I guess we must be glad some females are still doing fine so we can attempt to breed them. If it'll ever happen without injecting hormones like some people used to do many years ago. And look what happened with those Atelopus... none remain today.


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