# Terrarium PLANT SWAP



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

If you've been in chat lately, you might have heard the buzz about this idea. If you HAVE heard about this, and wanted to get in on it (as a 'beta tester') please *EMAIL ME* ASAP. The ball is rolling, the site is going up, now we just have to get content... and I forgot who wanted in and need a "yes, I want in!" via email because I'm braindead and its the only way I can keep track.

If you have NO IDEA what I'm talking about, its ok, you're forgiven  j/k! Plenty of people have wonderful terrarium plants overrunning tanks and what not, and so many are trimmed with the cuttings tossed away because they don't know anyone who wants them! After swapping lots of plants over chat and at local meetings, the idea came up in DB chat to start a website to encourage swappage (DB classifieds just weren't doing the job, the thread would be ridiculous - no offense joe!).

This site not only will (hopefully) serve as an up-to-date who-has-what, but also will provide plant profiles so you know what the deal with these plants, and also hopefully articles about various terrarium plant things (including HOW TO TREAT PLANTS THAT CAME FROM TANKS WITH FROGS - so don't send me hate mail about that).

I'm looking for people with plant pics, plant clippings to trade to build up an initial list, people with plant knowhow to help with profiles, or just interested people willing to give feedback. If you're interested *EMAIL ME*!


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2005)

I have a greenhouse full of creeping fig I'ld be happy to trade out.
Larry


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2005)

I have a now empty 29 gallon tank that is completely overrun with creeping fig and some type of philendron (ok so its not an entire green house). 


-Tad


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2005)

Brilliant.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2005)

im all for networking. although my tank is new and i dont have too much to offer just yet.

count me in..... the key word is YET


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Thanks for your support guys, but if you wanna be one of the "beta testers" as I like to call you guinea pigs... I mean... plant adoring folk... I need you guys to actually email me. You can press the cool little email button below this post (which will give me the email you have on DB) or send me an email from the email you want to use for this project: [email protected]

Whatever return email addy I get is the one I'm going to be sending information out to. This is going to occur off board with a group of people to try and gather info and what not, which is why the email is so important.

My PM inbox is full so I won't get any more messages that way.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

e-mail sent!


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I would LOVE to participate, however, shipping weather is dwindling fast.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Will there be any controls as to people trading plants that have already been used in frog tanks? Or is it just assumed that that's what you'll be getting?


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

There will be a spot to check whether the plant has been in contact with animals, but you trade at your own risk. There will also be info on how to clean cuttings...

Luke


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## speedsport (Sep 11, 2005)

e-mail sent


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Ok, quick update - basic layout is set up and should hopefully go up this weekend. I'll send out an email to the whole group of people who emailed me (Thanks you guys!) and we'll get cracking on getting this site the way it should be.

I'd like to see this site become somewhat self-managed through something like PHP so the workload doesn't get overwhelming with me having to do every little update. If anyone has experience with this please let me know, I'd like to have users be able to update their own available and wanted info.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2005)

What happens if someone distributes a rare but "infected" plant throughout the community?


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> What happens if someone distributes a rare but "infected" plant throughout the community?


Or what if someone trades a whole bunch of plants heavily sprayed with chemicals? I know some people who won't even put any store/nursery bought plants in thier tanks. Only ones from terrarium shops.

I guess we'll just have to ask a lot of questions when we "swap".


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Infected with... what, a fungus or pest?

This is the problem with any classifieds or trade deal. You have to trust your source or know how to deal with problems that you get, the website is just a way for people to meet up and provide info, not regulate every single thing, there is no way that can be done and is an unrealistic goal. It will be posted if the senders note that the plant comes from a source where it has come in contact with frogs, but that relies on honestly and anyways, all the plants should be treated the same - consider them dirty and go from there. This is the same thing as adding a new frog to your tank! Do you just toss it in your established community, or treat it/quarentine it to check for issues? Each user must gage the risk and react accordingly.

Yes, this warning will be posted on the site, front page, and will also be in the user agreement (which in theory everyone would read but I'm not stupid enough to believe that).

If a problem occurs with a user (mislabled or plants with problems that the sender didn't know about, etc) we'll try to send notices out the best we can and handle the problem. If the user purposely sent out problem plants and/or otherwise causes difficulties in the community, they will be handled by the community much like they'd be handled here. I will not put up with people abusing the site.

As awesome as it would be for all senders to send perfectly clean healthy cuttings from greenhouses, thats not always going to be the case. As nice as it would be to have the senders clean the plants before they send, there is no way to enforce it. The receiver is the one responsible, and why we're developing a "what you should do" article for the new plants. Most of the plants in the hobby can be treated to a bleach bath that should get rid of most problems that would be a threat to your plants and/or frogs. Information like this is going to be provided on the site, the main reason I wanted to get some people together to bounce stuff off of.

The best we can do is supply guidelines, enforce them as best we can, and hope people follow them.

Thoughts? Reactions?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Hola people!

I've just finished setting up the Plant Swap mailing list which can be found HERE. If you emailed me before about being a "beta tester" you should be recieving and invite in your inbox soon! If you haven't emailed me and want to be involved, join the mailing list for updates.

I'd like to send out my current update but realize a lot of the emails would have spam filters that would filter out an email with so many recipients, and the ML would be the best way to have people discuss feedback.


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## Frognut (Jan 31, 2005)

I could not find your new site on the web. Can you post a link?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Look at the post directly above you. In the first line it says "HERE". That is a link.

It is more of a mailing list than a site at this point.

s


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The site is currently not actually up and running, there is a lot of work to be done to get even the beta version up and running, just because of all the information that the site was originally planned to contain.

This site will take a lot of time and effort to really get going, more than I can provide on my own, and many people offered their assistance. I started a ML to get feedback on whats needed for the site, you can join here:

http://plantml.kero-kero.net/listinfo.cgi/plantswap-kero-kero.net

Just to be clear, this is not a ML to swap plants or anything, this is for people who want to help out in the development of the site. Its hard for any community site to be done by one person, espeicially a college student heading into finals. Until I get more help with development of this site, the site is going to stay a "thanks for looking!" banner only.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2005)

Anyone have any terrarium appropriate orchids they can take a cutting off of?

Larry


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Were working on a list of terrarium tested orchids at the moment, if you can't get bits from Jon Werner himself, you should be able to order the plants online. Don't have the begining list Jon gave me at the moment.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2005)

Who is Jon Werner and how do I contact him?

I think this list is really really great! I have been beating my brains out with the orchid people trying to figure out what will work and what won't work. Maybe we should have a little cultural info along with the list and sizes and photos of course, because I don't have a clue what they look like.

Thanks for helping me. Lost in the dark,

Larry


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2005)

when is the terrarium plant swap going to start running?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

lol, Larry, funny you should mention that, because I'm working on the layout for plant profiles as I type... or I should be... but I keep reading DB.

One of the major reasons I'm putting up this site is to provide information on terrarium appropriate plants - and yes, by popular demand, a nice selection of terrarium species orchids will be included, with information and pics provided mostly by Jon Werner. He's on here as JWerner.

Plant profiles will have a "quick reference" set of icons for the basics, and any need to know specifics will be in the profile. Cultivars and pics will be included.

DB was not made over night! And neither is PlantSwap. I'm having to learn some stuff I never wanted to learn :? and there is a lot of stuff going into it. Also realize I'm making the site basically on my own, with imput from very few people (Major kudos to Harry of Cloud Jungle and Blort, and my sidekicks Luke and Ed).

Right now is bad for shipping across the north (including me, getting icy rain at the moment) so I'm taking my time on it. I want it done right. Plus I've been up to my ears in school work til just recently, and haven't had much time to work on it. The site is complex, needs a lot of work for the library part, and the "swap" area is using stuff I've never used before, and is not a standard marketplace or anything, so it needs to be seriously modified. 

If this project had been easy, I would have finished it by now... or more likely someone would have done it before now.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2005)

Well, I thank for all your hard work. We'll try to be patient. I guess I'ld rather have it done right. Anyway do your school work first. That's more important.

Larry


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2005)

I'm glad you are taking the time to do it right and nice. Cant wait to see it and be a part of it. Which reminds me, I better go plant shopping.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Excellent idea. I have some programming experience and would like to help if at all possible. How would I go about doing so?



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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You can join the mailing list and see what I'm up to  Was suppose to have the site basics up this week, but ended up catching up on sleep... and cleaning... and frog stuff.... and plant stuff (actual plants, not the site) and ended up not getting it done  Now I'm running off for the weekend lol.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Done. I totally understand catching up on sleep. I finished my finals last week and to say the least I didn't sleep too well till those were over.



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## Guest (Dec 19, 2005)

Alright way to go Corey, Almost got it together.

So do we have an estimated time line for kick-off?

Larry


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Almost but not really lol. I'm hoping to have the skeleton site up soon, and fill it with profiles as soon as I can get the information. I haven't even started to work on the market bit, so I have no idea how long that will take. I'd like to see it all up and running by the begining of febuary, market included, but I'm not really sure.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

How about setting up the site to where members can add/submit information. Have it set up so that members themselves can create plant profiles with pictures, culturing advice, and all that jazz. I think it would make things LOADS easier for you, and permit those members who have had lots of experience with a certain group to easily spread their knowledge. Just an idea...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It would make things easier for me a bit time wise, but accuracy would be a big issue - thats basically making it where anyone can put anything they want on the site, and the information is very hard to control accuracy of (I'd still double check it so... honestly how time saving is it?). Yes, I am a bit of a control freak. But I want this done right, and I want the information as correct as possible. I'm willing to put in the time to do so, thus, I am not giving up the reins on that.

I would *love* to have the knowledgable sources of the community give their input - but they have lives. Some have been awesome enough to give pics and offer tidbits and to edit profiles and what not, which is awesome, and I hope they continue to do so.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

KeroKero said:


> It would make things easier for me a bit time wise, but accuracy would be a big issue - thats basically making it where anyone can put anything they want on the site, and the information is very hard to control accuracy of (I'd still double check it so... honestly how time saving is it?). Yes, I am a bit of a control freak. But I want this done right, and I want the information as correct as possible. I'm willing to put in the time to do so, thus, I am not giving up the reins on that.
> 
> I would *love* to have the knowledgable sources of the community give their input - but they have lives. Some have been awesome enough to give pics and offer tidbits and to edit profiles and what not, which is awesome, and I hope they continue to do so.


Agreed, just trying to help- a bit, anyways..


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

is it too late to get in on this? admittingly, all i have is creeping ficus. i do have the curled leaf type too.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> It would make things easier for me a bit time wise, but accuracy would be a big issue - thats basically making it where anyone can put anything they want on the site, and the information is very hard to control accuracy of (I'd still double check it so... honestly how time saving is it?). Yes, I am a bit of a control freak. But I want this done right, and I want the information as correct as possible. I'm willing to put in the time to do so, thus, I am not giving up the reins on that.
> 
> I would *love* to have the knowledgable sources of the community give their input - but they have lives. Some have been awesome enough to give pics and offer tidbits and to edit profiles and what not, which is awesome, and I hope they continue to do so.


Okay, I'll bite. I signed up for this, but I haven't a clue what we are supposed to be doing. It is set up like frognet, and there is talk about us being able to submit our experiences with a particular type of plant, but I haven't seen any e-mails regarding how to do this.

What are we supposed to be doing to help with this?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The list is set up just like Frognet, I use the same program lol. If you have joined, or want to, make sure NOT to put it in digest mode - few emails have been going around, and digest makes you get them incredibly late.

I've sent out a number of emails, every time a couple new people join, and have gotten little to no feedback from them. Coding the site is taking a bit since the volunteer programmer has had a build up in projects just as I have, so we're both running behind on it. The site is mostly worked out, we just haven't had the time to actually *DO* it.

What I've needed from ML members was a list of plants they use in their tanks to build up the database. Pics are also appreciated, and are suppose to be sent directly to my email account, not the ML. This is not just cuttings you have available, its stuff you use in your tanks - the site is being set up so the only plants that can be listed are terrarium approved, which means they are included in the database. Still need to tweek the profiles but I need a list of plants to put in the database before I can really tweek it!

If you are on the ML, please send a list of plants you like to use. If you aren't on the ML, and don't want to join, I'd be more than happy to get a list from you, just send it to my email.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I have since lost my membership info, what is the list's web or email address?



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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Mailing list can be found here:

http://plantml.kero-kero.net/listinfo.cgi/plantswap-kero-kero.net

If you can't get your information from there, email me and I'll get you what you need.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Excellent. Thank you 



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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> The list is set up just like Frognet, I use the same program lol. If you have joined, or want to, make sure NOT to put it in digest mode - few emails have been going around, and digest makes you get them incredibly late.


Good to know . . . I'll change that.



> I've sent out a number of emails, every time a couple new people join, and have gotten little to no feedback from them. Coding the site is taking a bit since the volunteer programmer has had a build up in projects just as I have, so we're both running behind on it. The site is mostly worked out, we just haven't had the time to actually *DO* it.
> 
> What I've needed from ML members was a list of plants they use in their tanks to build up the database. Pics are also appreciated, and are suppose to be sent directly to my email account, not the ML. This is not just cuttings you have available, its stuff you use in your tanks - the site is being set up so the only plants that can be listed are terrarium approved, which means they are included in the database. Still need to tweek the profiles but I need a list of plants to put in the database before I can really tweek it!


Could you please give us a sample "profile" so that we know how to include the information that you want? I would be more than happy to help by sending pics and culture info as long as I know what you want.



> If you are on the ML, please send a list of plants you like to use. If you aren't on the ML, and don't want to join, I'd be more than happy to get a list from you, just send it to my email.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2006)

*email sent...*

i'm interested!!! i could see all sorts of nasty nematodes getting passed, and soil/plant dwelling pathenogenic fungus... could you include some sort of a rating system into the forum code to allow for other users to judge/tally the overall health of an individual's proffered plants over time? this would allow for folks to see a patern with an individual, and associated risks/problems involved with each user...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I had a list of "Quick Reference" plant needs icons planned out, 3-4 "levels" in each quick reference section (other need to know information about the plants other than the info provided by the quick references are noted in the profile), I just can't find the paper where I wrote them down! *bangs head on desk* been one of those weeks. I'm pretty sure I posted them to the ML and they should be in the archives. The "levels" within each section have only been outlined - not set in stone with values, so thats something I need to run by people and get opinions on.

13013 (1337 for Bob?) - A rating system is currently not in the plans due to some legal issues. There have been problems with vendor ratings, feedback, and what not on forums like this and others, and I'm honestly not up to gettting sued. This has been a puzzle I've been talking over with other people involved in the development of the site, and we've not come up with a good way to do it. The plants going around on this site are cuttings, and the idea is mostly to trade equally (free) or pay only the amount of shipping - very little money to lose if the deal goes bad. I also wouldn't be able to varify why the plant died - shipping, care of the receiver, or if it was just a bad cutting to begin with. There is a good degree of honor system that has to go on, and we as admins only have so much control.

As for things such as nematodes, funguses, etc. we are planning to provide articles on the "need to know" stuff like cleaning your plants so bad stuff like that isn't passed, and packaging plants for shipping (the steps we'd tank in making sure they were good plants, but we have no way to enforce this at this point). It would be awesome for everyone to send cleaned plants and what not, but not everyone is going to, its honestly up to you to make sure plants you receive are good enough to go in your tank. We will provide as much information as we can to make this process as easy as possible, and let you know as much as possible about the plant you are getting (thru the plant profiles - assuming its IDed correctly).

There is only so much control we can have.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2006)

*13013 is teh 1337...; )*

i guess the only site i've seen besides ebay that has a rating system has it's server in canada... i didn't realize there were legal issues...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Well, done the wrong way, "negative feedback" can be taken as slander and such things (I swear, people will sue for just about anything these days). I've heard some unfortunate stories about such things, including one where the forum the feedback was given on was sued... and I really don't want to be involved in something like that, but honestly can't think of a feedback or rating system that can't be screwed with or possibly be taken in the wrong way.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Corey,

I’m not sure you want people bleaching cuttings and then sending them. This process can be very stressful to the plant/cutting. I think that people would be better off sterilizing the cuttings when they get them. In some cases if the cuttings arrive in bad shape they may need to be nursed back to health prior to being bleached.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2006)

I agree with Chris,
No matter what the sender has done as far as "cleaning" the plant. I would urge the receiver to consider them dirty, and take the necessary steps to sterilize the plants. If the sender, and the receiver both do this, back to back, it can add unnecessary stress to the plant. The receiver should judge the condition of the plant, and grow it out some, if needed, before the treatment. 
This way the receiver knows for sure that the plant is clean, and no accidents happen. It would be the same as buying a store bought, or wild collected plant that you should clean before you put it in your viv.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

That's pretty much how our recomendation goes. You're responsible for what goes in your tank, and you can't always depend on the "other end" holding up their side of the deal completely, and it really wouldn't be a good thing to stress the plants right before you stress them a whole bunch more.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2006)

I came to the same conclusion when reading this thread friday night. 

I think it would be best to receive the cuttings....make a judgement of their condition....grow out a bit and then plan on treating for the tank.

After all, I would think that in most cases we are talking "cuttings" which aren't likely to have any root system.

Also, I would rather have someone just say they sent a cutting untreated with a little history of where it came from then not trusting the cleaning process and doing it all over again.


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## devin mac (Oct 4, 2004)

bump for this thread, and corey, you have a PM


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Thanks Devin, PM answered  

For those interested in the site, I still need help building the database this site is run off of, so emails of plants that you use in your tanks (species and cultivar if possible) would greatly help this effort. *EMAIL* only please, no PMs.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2006)

Is there anyway the rest of us could see a list of the current entries so you dont get e-mails with the same set of plants??


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I'll set up a short site, but right now (since I've got to dig thru old files from when i reformatted the comp) the list is empty lol. I'll be poking around a couple sites like BJ, Tropiflora cargo reports, and what not to start, I think I'm just gonn start from scratch again, so all entries welcome!


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

*plant swap*

Corey
What do I need to do to be involved? Is the plant swap up and running yet?

I keep 30 vivs, and have 30-50 plants in a grow area/ orchidarium and really enjoy the plant side of the hobby (being a previous miniature orchid fanatic....)...I often have cutting to trade.

FYI: I use Physan 20 to sterilize my cuttings....in a overnight bath, 1 capfull per gallon of H20....I get the physan frog Charley's Greenhouse and a bottle goes a long way...

http://www.charleysgreenhouse.com/i...ils&productid=7620&cid1=350&cid2=290&cid3=-99

Shawn


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

No, the plant swap is not up and running, and won't be for a while. Both me and the programmer are currently overwhelmed with web projects and don't have much, if any, free time right now. We can't afford to put this project, as awesome as it is, before our paid contracts - we're doing this for free, on our free time (which, as I just said, is nil :? ). Other than building the database, I've done my part, but without the programming, the project is dead in the water. I might be pulling in another friend of mine to help, but I've not had the time to even do more than chat with him about it for a few minutes. 

I also haven't had help with the database, which means more time I have to spend researching, which I just don't have time to do.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

what kind of programming do you need? i know a bit of html
work a full time job though, so don't have much free time to learn new languages.

anyway, i'm interested in the swap. don't have a viv yet, but i'm a fan of tropical plants in general so besides ones for the viv i also have many others around the house.


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## Greenstar (Feb 28, 2004)

Is there any help I can provide? Has anythiing taken place over the last month or so of any significance?

Danny


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The only thing that has happened to me in the last month is IAD and finals, lol. The plant swap site is still on hiatus, as I finish up with this semester at school. I'm hoping to meet with my programmer in the near future to see what there is to be done, and if he's able to do what I want.

I talked with a number of plant people at IAD to see what the reception would be vendor and sponser wise, and it looks like I will hopefully be able to cover costs - remember I'm doing this for free and out of pocket. My school and paid work comes first.

I am still looking for lists of plants people use in their tanks, and pics if possible. These emails are not to list what you want to put on the site - you will be given a chance to do that when the site is up and you can make your own account. I am looking for plants that are terrarium tested and approved, whether you plant to swap them or not, or if you even have them or not! These need to be emailed to me only, I don't check PMs at this point.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

Any updates for us, Corey?


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## cubby23 (Jun 12, 2006)

Updates? I wanna see this site.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

This site is not going to happen. I've got too much other stuff to do and can no longer put aside the time to focus on such a mammoth project. I've not found anyone else that can dedicate the time to this project either, so I just recommend posting stuff in the plants section of the classifieds.


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