# Are "backyard" isos safe?



## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

Hello everyone, 

Lately, I have been focusing on expanding the cultures I have and use on my vivariums and have come across some questions marks. I wanted to mainly discuss here the potential of gathering isos from your yard/garden, and using those to make cultures to introduce into your vivariums. 

I have read some loose discussion about finding isos in your yard and making cultures from them. Ive read a lot of mixed feelings on it and wanted to hear more thoughts on the subject. The last thread on DB I saw was a few years old already too. Is this a safe thing to do? What is the risk of introducing something harmful to your viv? What are the proper precautions to take if this is indeed something that is acceptable? I heard some people will only use their "backyard cultures" after a year of reproduction has taken place within a culture, to hopefully breed out any harmful agents. I have also heard that this is not necessary, and they can be used nearly immediately. I have ALSO heard that this is something to avoid all together. So, I just wanted to hear what everyone had to say on the subject as I clearly have found mixed reviews. I do not want to make a mistake that could easily be avoided, but also would love to take advantage of the resources easily accessed around me.

Thanks


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## lukeklos (Dec 18, 2012)

Dart_Man said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Lately, I have been focusing on expanding the cultures I have and use on my vivariums and have come across some questions marks. I wanted to mainly discuss here the potential of gathering isos from your yard/garden, and using those to make cultures to introduce into your vivariums.
> 
> ...


Seems like a lot to worry about just to save a few bucks. 
There are plenty of people on here that sell cultured isos and springs. 
I would go with that.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm with lukeklos. The bad outweighs the benefit here. I personally would not take that risk.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I don't think I've read of anyone that's posted about having bad experiences with using "backyard" isos. I would be very mindful if you (or any nearby neighbors) use any fertilizers or pesticides. People are very cautious because the cost of a clean culture is negligible compared to the potential cost of having to replace a frog.

If I were you I'd try to get in touch with local froggers and see if anyone has a species you want.


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

lukeklos said:


> Seems like a lot to worry about just to save a few bucks.
> There are plenty of people on here that sell cultured isos and springs.
> I would go with that.



I am well aware of the amount of spring and iso cultures that are out there to purchase and this would of course be safer and easier. BUT, I really like the idea of being able to take a culture from start to finish on my own.....I searched and caught all of them, I made cultures out of collection I have found, and then I introduced those cultures of the isos I had collected. Yes, it is much easier to just say "I can just buy those" but its almost like cooking a meal at home instead of going to a restaurant. There is enjoyment and a reward from doing it yourself and being self sufficient and proud of what you had created, and not needing to rely on others to get essentials. Again, I know you can just buy cultures, but I am asking for thoughts on collecting and making your own.


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## lukeklos (Dec 18, 2012)

Dart_Man said:


> I am well aware of the amount of spring and iso cultures that are out there to purchase and this would of course be safer and easier. BUT, I really like the idea of being able to take a culture from start to finish on my own.....I searched and caught all of them, I made cultures out of collection I have found, and then I introduced those cultures of the isos I had collected. Yes, it is much easier to just say "I can just buy those" but its almost like cooking a meal at home instead of going to a restaurant. There is enjoyment and a reward from doing it yourself and being self sufficient and proud of what you had created, and not needing to rely on others to get essentials. Again, I know you can just buy cultures, but I am asking for thoughts on collecting and making your own.


well, you've got my 2 cents. 
Is that satisfaction worth risking the life of your DFs?


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Introducing pathogens and/or parasites from yard collection isos is a risk. I've read about people taking backyard isos and culturing them for several generations "to clean them", then introducing the isos to the vivarium...but this can take several years and you have to separate the baby isos from the adults for this to be successful. If you are set on doing it this way, there are several threads that talk about those methods here.

It may be more satisfying to hand-pick and raise isos yourself, but it would be safer for your frogs if you bought clean isos. You only have to buy one culture if you do it right. 

Just my thoughts and opinions on the topic. Best of luck.


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

Brian317 said:


> Introducing pathogens and/or parasites from yard collection isos is a risk. I've read about people taking backyard isos and culturing them for several generations "to clean them", then introducing the isos to the vivarium...but this can take several years and you have to separate the baby isos from the adults for this to be successful. If you are set on doing it this way, there are several threads that talk about those methods here.
> 
> It may be more satisfying to hand-pick and raise isos yourself, but it would be safer for your frogs if you bought clean isos. You only have to buy one culture if you do it right.
> 
> Just my thoughts and opinions on the topic. Best of luck.




Thank you again Brian, as you have been helpful in the past. 

I already have a handful of cultures going, I am just looking for other possible options. Without asking the questions and learning, I have no way to compare and make decisions. I already have 2 cultures of white springs, 1 dwarf purple iso, and 1 pink spring....so I am not desperate for them at all. I am just asking so I can understand better.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Dart_Man said:


> Thank you again Brian, as you have been helpful in the past.
> 
> I already have a handful of cultures going, I am just looking for other possible options. Without asking the questions and learning, I have no way to compare and make decisions. I already have 2 cultures of white springs, 1 dwarf purple iso, and 1 pink spring....so I am not desperate for them at all. I am just asking so I can understand better.


No problem and totally understand. If nobody else chimes in, I'd suggest searching here for wild collected iso threads and read on how others are doing it. I've never used isos from my yard or wild caught just because that risk to introduce something is there. People that do use wc isos or termites should be doing routine fecals and bd/rana tests as the risk to exposure is much higher. I believe most wc isos take longer to fully mature (around 14 months), so that is why the process of doing generation cleaning can take years. 

You can also search on google.com and use site:dendroboard.com in the search bar to do a website specific search. Sometimes the search bar here can be a bit finicky


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## SilverLynx (Aug 29, 2013)

I am a scientist with expertise in WHO (World Health Organization) diseases 
in fish. I made my living at it! There is strong evidence that Batrachochytrum 
Dendrobatis, which is a deadly form of Chytriomycota in susceptible species infect invertebrates, or insects. Recent studies are leaning towards these invertebrates acting as host organisms for the dreaded fungus. 

Please DO NOT culture, "backyard" Isopods, or any other wild insect!!!! Why risk your dart frog collection as well as others!!!

Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx


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## orin (Sep 8, 2013)

Keep in mind too, to only purchase established culture stocks of species not readily collected outdoors. If you are buying standard Armadillidium especially, but also Porcellio scaber and some others you are very likely getting wild caught anyway. You can ask the vendor if they are an established stock or WC. If you're buying Oniscus or Philoscia you're certainly getting WC.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Weren't all the isopods around originally collected from some "backyard" to begin with? Same with springs? 

What did it take for those founding stock to be deemed "safe"?


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Most people who find local isopods are going to get ones that reproduce slowly. They are not going to be practical for use in a vivarium. What we have in the hobby is specific species that have been selected through experience to be most practical for our application. 

If you want to try to culture new feeder / cleanup bugs you should probably think about what makes a good candidate and try to select for those bugs. If something cannot get a good culture going in a short time it won't be practical. If you live in USA north you are going to be dealing with a lot of insects that have some mechanism for going dormant during the winter which will slow down production. You probably do not want these. 

All the insects we have originally came from wild stocks and time tested use of them has proven them to be safe. So you will need to be ready to euthanize and sterilize a whole tank if something goes wrong. And if you decide to give them to other people you should make sure they are aware of the origin of the culture.

That said there are people who collect wild insects still and feed them to their frogs regularly. I do not consider this to be as dangerous as some make it out to be so long as you are willing to completely sterilize and entire system if something goes wrong. Catching something and bringing it in and having it kill just your frogs is very different than releasing something that will kill an entire endemic population. People catch termites, do field sweeps etc for years without problems. That said obviously the risk is higher than using the established safe cultures suppliers are selling. So you have been warned.


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## orin (Sep 8, 2013)

mydumname said:


> Weren't all the isopods around originally collected from some "backyard" to begin with? Same with springs?
> 
> What did it take for those founding stock to be deemed "safe"?


Consider the difference between wild-caught and captive-bred. Wild animals are not inherently damaged but are far more likely to harbor disease and parasites. The results will depend on the type of animal, situation, and mere chance but anyone familiar with buying WC vs. CB for most animals would understand. Many times it does not matter but if the health of your charges is a major concern, you do not play Russian Roulette with their lives. The specific methodology for assuring something is likely to be safe is often less difficult than estimated. Please read some of the earlier posts in this thread.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

SilverLynx said:


> I am a scientist with expertise in WHO (World Health Organization) diseases
> in fish. I made my living at it! There is strong evidence that Batrachochytrum
> Dendrobatis, which is a deadly form of Chytriomycota in susceptible species infect invertebrates, or insects. Recent studies are leaning towards these invertebrates acting as host organisms for the dreaded fungus.
> 
> ...


I think you mean _Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis_, but point taken on arthropods as a vector for Bd.


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## orin (Sep 8, 2013)

orin said:


> The specific methodology for assuring something is likely to be safe is often less difficult than estimated.


 By this I meant standard quarantine methods for institutions generally require a minimum time, not multiple generation reproduction. Poisoned or diseased animals often die within a few months.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

orin said:


> Consider the difference between wild-caught and captive-bred. Wild animals are not inherently damaged but are far more likely to harbor disease and parasites. The results will depend on the type of animal, situation, and mere chance but anyone familiar with buying WC vs. CB for most animals would understand. Many times it does not matter but if the health of your charges is a major concern, you do not play Russian Roulette with their lives. The specific methodology for assuring something is likely to be safe is often less difficult than estimated. Please read some of the earlier posts in this thread.




Why are you quoting me here? If intentional....I don't think you understood my post.


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## SilverLynx (Aug 29, 2013)

Mydumname, I can assure you that USDA/APHIS has very strict biosafety regulations for the commercial production of various insects. You don't just dig some isopods in PA, culture them, and ship them to TX. Isopods live in soil that can contain deadly pathogens for man and animals. I would assume that you have heard of the deadly endospore, anthrax, right? It is NOT responsible or ethical to transport wild caught insects across state lines, and I might add highly ILLEGAL!!

Most insects raised commercially are cultured in entomology laboratories that are regulated by the USDA/APHIS. I certainly would hope that cultures of springtail, isopods, beetles, etc, were ORIGINALLY obtained through these sources and not someone's backyard. This is not a casual matter. Culturing organisms that may either contain deadly pathogens or come from contaminated soil is a VERY SERIOUS MATTER!! 


Thanks,
Lane,aka, SilverLynx


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

Lane
I think Greg was simply asking a question , as to what steps were taken by such institutions to make these insects safe to be cultured in the hobby. I doubt that he was suggesting that one should collect them and culture them themselves.


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## SilverLynx (Aug 29, 2013)

Greg,

I have been to commercial laboratories, and isopods are cultured in soilless media. My last name is Fluker, I have relatives in the business. Did not mean to offend anyone.


Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

dartsanddragons said:


> Lane
> I think Greg was simply asking a question , as to what steps were taken by such institutions to make these insects safe to be cultured in the hobby. I doubt that he was suggesting that one should collect them and culture them themselves.


Someone gets me ha. It was just that...a question....no hidden meaning....not indirectly telling anyone to go do something....no reading between the lines necessary.


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

With all that has been said, I agree that the risk does not outweigh the reward by any stretch. The idea seemed like it would have been nice, but I am not interested in risking my frogs health and having a mini epidemic on my hands if something went wrong. I am very happy that this dialogue is out there now, not only teaching me, but teaching many others who may have questioned doing this before. I also learned quite a bit about the precautions regarding different culturing of isos. I can still have fun splitting cultures and making masters....so not all fun is lost! 

Again, this is why I ask questions like this before doing anything.

Any more suggestions for favorite springs or isos would be great too! I already have white springs, pink springs, and purple dwarf isos....any suggestions for any additions?? 

Thanks everyone.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Good to hear Aaron. You already have my two favorite bugs (pink springs and purple isos). You should try dwarf grey isos and silver springs. I think you would do well with those and are both doing very well for me.

Take care,
Brian


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