# Can a Frog tank/Vivarium be too big?



## Bup (Apr 21, 2010)

Hi,
I'm thinking about started a Vivarium, I do have a space planned out for it.
But I don't know if its too big, It will be about 150-200 gallons. 
Footprint: 5 1/5 feet long x 29 inches tall x 36 inches wide.

And, Do you think if you've had experience in both (or just guessing)
Whats harder: Saltwater aquariums or Vivariums/frog tanks


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

The dimensions you gave roughly equal 300 gallons.

Doesn't sound too big at all! -> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-construction.html
Although, it might be "too big" to keep track of the smaller frogs. I don't have any experience with thumbnails but, I wouldnt want to keep some in a tank that big.

To me saltwater just ended up being sort of a money pit. I really liked doing it but, it became more of a pain in the butt than fun. Another bonus is the weight issue. 1 gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. So, just full of water a 55 gallon tank weighs near 500lbs! Whereas with my 45 gallon viv my wife and I can easially pick it up and move it around.

I'm no expert by any means, just imho.


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## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

i did reefs for years and like anything time and experience will negate difficulty. reefs became boring to me. and i will never get a fourth of what i got in them back when i finally sell them off. my only consolation is that when i break down my last tank i will have a 180 gallon frog tank to build and a 75 gallon tank too! unfortunately it will not need the 960 watts of light i currently have on it!

AG


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## alfredjourgen (Apr 9, 2010)

Salt water is way harder than dart frog vivaria IMO

Can a vivarium be too large?

it depends if you're starting with froglets then it can be too large (ease of feeding them finding food you observing growth rates etc)

If you went with large juvis or adult frogs and used a couple feeding stations (piece of fruit that atracts the fruit flies you feed frogs) you shouldn't have a problem.

In that size tank you could keep a nice gang of P. terribilis 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13856-phyllobates-terribilis-bicolor-novice.html

a group of D. leucomelas

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13015-dendrobates-leucomelas-novice.html

Good luck


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i odnt' think we can make any vivs in captivity that are too hihg, some the enclosures at the National Aquarium are well over 6 feet tall and they had castis climbing at the top half of it.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I agree, there's really no such thing as too big. If you have a fully established and diverse microfauna population finding food shouldn't be a big deal. Using feeding stations can only make things easier as well. I'd totally agree that a big gang of phyllobates of any species would be awesome in there(Id love to see a whole herd of aurotaenia) Leucs would be another awesome choice.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't know... I'm becoming a little less certain in my claim that there's _never_ any such thing as a vivarium that is too big.

For large frogs like tincs or leucs or auratus I'm still willing to hold to this. But I've talked with a couple well-known breeders lately who have informed me that with some species of frogs (even in groups) smaller vivariums can sometimes stimulate breeding. So far I've only found this to be the case (at least as far as others have told me) for some fantastica group frogs but... who knows....


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Of course that might be true.

I think that type of thinking is more along the lines of an "advanced" hobbyist. One who not only keeps frogs but, is also concerned with breeding them. I'm sure raising tad's and froglets is in its own way very rewarding but, not that crucial to a newbie.

I guess it just would depend on what someone wants to get out of their viv. With a tank this size it seems like its main purpose would be for display and if any breeding happens then it's just a bonus.


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## tangeckos (Mar 3, 2009)

I just set up a 125 split for tincs and I feel its too small lol but I would set up the tank and get froglets or juvs raise them up in a seperate tank and let your large viv mature load it with springtails and let them culture this is what I did and it works out nice best of luck and would like to see pics of the tank even if its empty and ps do a viv over salt much easier!


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## Bup (Apr 21, 2010)

Ok, I'm thinking of setting one up in the summer, or maybe even sooner now.
I will look up those types of frgos suggested


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

If you're going for a giant tank I suggest a large group of leucs or imitators


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## Bup (Apr 21, 2010)

How much would be in a large group?
I'm thinking about going with the imatators, I like their colors a lot


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## Bup (Apr 21, 2010)

Also, Would it be possible to keep a lizard of some sort with the frogs?


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Mixing is really frowned upon. It is most likely stressful for all the animals involved. 300 gallons might seem like a lot of space to us but, if that was your entire world it might be akin to sharing your house with your mother-in-law, and never being able to leave.

In his tank http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-construction.html volume is approx. 1542.86 gallons. Much larger than your proposed tank.

Even when it comes to total tank volume there is really only a small portion of that space that is useable. This can be increased of course by adding lots of plants, logs, branches, a climbable background with different levels, etc.

Although mixing different species _is_ possible it's not the best for the frogs. You can do a search on mixing as well and see what that turns up.


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## Bup (Apr 21, 2010)

Ok, I wont do that than.
how much would be in a large group though?

And, the person who owns that giant vivarium is on my Local fish forums/club. It used to be a reef, I'm pretty sure.


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

> how much would be in a large group though?


That is an excellent question! From what I've heard a large group (of auratus) for that size tank could be around 10(+) frogs (?). I'm only guessing though. Hopefully someone with actual experience with a large group of frogs (auratus or imi's) will have something more definite to say.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Bup said:


> Ok, I wont do that than.
> how much would be in a large group though?


It really depends on your hardscaping/landscaping and how much usable space/visible barriers/etc are incorporated. Also, it depends on what type of frogs you decide on. I would make the build with a type of frog in mind, then post pictures.

Something to keep in mind as well, often the temptation is to determine the maximum number of frogs that can fit in an enclosure, the thinking that the number of frogs=enjoyment of tank. Provided they are visible, you will enjoy a sparsely populated tank every bit as much as a packed tank.

But if you're into reefs/marine tanks, you probably already know that. 

Welcome, BTW.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Assuming your hardscaping is good, visual barriers, you utilize ridges and climbing space, have wood to increase the usable surface area in the middle of the tank (rather than just along the sides) you could have... say... fifteen imitators and still have twenty gallons of space per frog? That seems reasonable to me. Seems cozy; plenty of your friends to play with but plenty of space to have some alone time.... I think that's in an optimal tank set-up, though.


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## Bup (Apr 21, 2010)

Ok, I think I am going to go with a group of leucs, do they do better in groups of odd or even, does it matter?


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## vugger#1 (Jul 20, 2009)

Leuc’s will do fine in group of 8 maybe more in a 300 gallon tank, the ratio is not that important but I would try to set them up as a group of the number you want from the start not try to add to the group as you go along. Also it seems that Leuc females like to eat each others eggs.
I think someone also mentioned a herd of P. Aurotaenia. I personally have the Narrow Banded Aurotaenia as a breeding group of 5 in a 20 gallon soon to be moving into a 40 long. These guys are some fun frogs to watch, bold, great call and you could keep a lot of these in a tank to size of your. If your tank has any water features these guys will breed and the tadpoles can morph together in one water feature unlike the leuc’s that will eat one another. They get bigger then the Imitators close to the size of a male Leuc. 

Of course this is just my opinion and dream to keep them in a big tank one day.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Groups of leucs do best, IMO, in groups of slightly male heavy populations. think 5.4 or or 6.4 or something in your 300 gallon.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

agreed. male heavy for sure.


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## Bup (Apr 21, 2010)

Ok, I'll do a group of 5 males 4 females than?
Now I just have to figure out the setup


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

When I built my leuc tank, I put in a terraced false stone waterfall with lots of hide holes. Between that, the terraced "shelves" and the broms, they use the entire area. I also incorporated a lot of hide holes, both on the ground floor and elevated. They all utilize the upper hides, each sleeping in the same "hole" every night.

And as was stated, male heavy is way to go. I would go 4.2 or 5.2 myself, but that is being pretty conservative.


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