# Hydei - am i missing something



## Drew (Nov 9, 2006)

I've been culturing flies for close to 2 years now and still have problems with hydei from time to time. Melanos aren't a problem, but the hydei drive me crazy sometimes. First, I switched media last year to Josh's. Initial problem was that I was putting too many flies in the cultures which resulted in them crashing - ok lesson learned. In the fall/winter I know I need to add a little extra water to the media or the cultures never start. In the summer, add a little less or they get soupy. But I still always have issues from time to time. I added extra water to last weeks cultures (as much as I always do) and the cultures won't start. Add more water and they get going. Just venting mainly but does anyone else have similar issues or tips?


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

I have tried Hydei flies 2 different times and have only been able to get one single culture going. THe only thing I did different was store it on the outside of the tiered rubbermaid things I use instead of in the drawers.
Candy


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Try Catfur's recipe 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...w-not-your-mothers-ff-media-2.html#post217645
Works well for both melagonaster or hydei, but really works great for the hydei.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Drew,

I just recently bought the Hydei media from Josh's also, and am having the same problem as you. My culture won't start. I am going to try to add a little more water like you suggested and see if that makes any difference. Is the Josh's media just no good or is this is it the Hydei flies are hard to culture?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Something to watch with Hydei is that they dont get too dry. With the extra time they take they can often dry out.

Some ideas:
- Keep them in a box or cabinet. This helps keep them from drying out too fast.
- Use extra medium. for example I use 1/2 cup with a 1/2 cup water for my hydei.
- Setup some tests. Trying 4-5 different ways and see which works the best for you.


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## Drew (Nov 9, 2006)

Josh's hydei media is the best that I have used so far. My initial problem was caused by me. With the original media that I was using I started my cultures with quite a few flies, when I did the same with Josh's there was TOO much production and the cultures crapped out. To fix that I just used fewer flies - problem solved.
I keep my cultures in a bin which helps alot. It's just that every once and a while something goes wrong and the cultures are crappy or take for ever to start. I've messed around with changing media & h2o proportions. Just when I think I've got it right something happens and the cultures do poorly. To my knowledge nothing has changed though, but obviously something is different.
The thing that helps me the most is an 'overflow' culture. I make one ~every two weeks or so. When things are really booming and I have more than I need (hyd & melano) I dump the extras into the overflow culture. I don't rely on that one to produce for me, it just holds my extras. I do get some production but more often than not it is just a cya sort of thing.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

another note, keep in mind that male hydei dont' become fertiel until about 10 days after hatching


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## Drew (Nov 9, 2006)

Julio said:


> another note, keep in mind that male hydei dont' become fertiel until about 10 days after hatching


I always keep that in mind when starting cultures too.


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## IN2DEEP (Aug 7, 2007)

I think I'm doing something wrong aswell. I mix media, add baker's yeast and flies. The flies all die and mold over. Just when I'm about to pitch the culture, I see the "maggots(?)". Is this the normal cycle for a hydei culture?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

hydei take 2x as long to develop.

I use a homemade mix personally. but Amanda's mix from AZDR is fantastic.

They dry easily.

They die before the maggots are ready...so after a week in the cx, dump out the adults and feed them off....then wait...you'll see maggots

Dont make a culture from a 'fresh' hatch...wait a week b/f using adults to cx.

they need more protein/ yeast.

they mold easy b/c of the time in the jar....so additional options like vinegar, or mold inhibitors may need to be tried if yeast alone isnt doing it.

they are a pain. 

they are great once you get the hang of it....

S


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Mixed cultures all the way. Do a 50/50 mix of melanogaster and hydei on hydei medium. The action of melanogaster larva will keep the media churned up to allow for the longer generation time of hydei.

I still do solo cultures of melanogaster and hydei, but always keep a couple mixed cultures going.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Jason is onto something there....but I have to say, it takes some getting use to. I've tried it many times, and the bloom of melanogaster is followed by a 'lull' in which [often the case] the cx gets tossed b/f the hydei have a chance [or at least, over time, the hydei burn out....after a few generations] It makes it a challenge to start new cx's also.

How do you handle those issues Jason?? or are you having success a different way perhaps?

Personally I get *many* more hydei out of a pure cx of them, just experiment with water content/mix types/ more brewers yeast. 

A old recipe using Flax seed worked very well....I dont have a link to it, but it is archived on here someplace.

Ed's Fly Meat has a specific hydei mix. I've never used it.


Best,

S


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> How do you handle those issues Jason?? or are you having success a different way perhaps?


It does indeed take a little experimentation and you have to be careful to mind the total biomass in the culture (feeding out frequently) because they can crash quickly. I usually start my cultures with about 25 melanogaster and 25 hydei from solo cultures because, as you say, it's difficult otherwise. 

Pure cultures will produce better once you iron out the wrinkles.


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## Drew (Nov 9, 2006)

My overflow cultures are essentially mixed cultures. As was said I get the melano boom, a pause and then hydei. In my experience those cultures do not produce as well as single cultures for me. But I also throw a lot of flies in there as well, too many to make for a good culture. I have tried some '90-10' cultures - just a few melano and mostly hydei. As was said the melano do a great job mixing things up for the hydei. My main problem with doing things that way is sooner or later things get out of whack ultimately leaving me with more of one type than the other. 

For the most part my hydei cultures go ok. Just a problem every once in a while, like I recently had. Two consecutive hydei cultures were slow starters. Put me in a little bit a of a bind feeding wise. I still had enough, just not what I would have wanted. Now though I have three hydei cultures that are booming. The two 'slow' ones caught up and the last one was right on time. Have way more than I need right now. Just frustrating at times. Melanos always go smoothly, hydei are unpredictable.


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> They die before the maggots are ready...so after a week in the cx, dump out the adults and feed them off....then wait...you'll see maggots


Huh?  Mine never die before I see the maggots... I just went and checked a hydei culture of mine, and there are a lot of maggots in it, and some are already pupated, and the flies are still alive...

My biggest problem with d. hydei is temperature. Too warm, too cold - it's annoying.


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## IN2DEEP (Aug 7, 2007)

Sarkany said:


> My biggest problem with d. hydei is temperature. Too warm, too cold - it's annoying.


What is the ideal temp?



sports_doc said:


> Ed's Fly Meat has a specific hydei mix. I've never used it.


That's what I am using. I got my starter cultures from another source and their media is atrocious (gets stinky and soupy). If Ed's hydei media is comparable to their melano media, I'll never try to make my own mix. [The media never molds and it's the perfect consistency year round, which is amazing since if the a/c isn't running the heat is (sometimes both in the same day).]

-Thanks to all I'm getting some insightful info.


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

IN2DEEP said:


> What is the ideal temp?


Now there's a _good_ question - I'm happy if the temperature is in a range where they will even breed or will not take _ages _to breed. 
The temperature in our house is sadly very, very dependent on the outside temperature (it's not funny sleeping in a bedroom that has a temperature of 100° F in summer. It sucks, in fact.). Either too hot or too cold.

I do believe though that I've read somewhere the ideal temperature for d. hydei to breed is around 71° - 73° F.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

How long do you get a culture going before you start to even see maggots or larva's, for the hydei? I'm using Josh's mixing media and for the hydei they don't supply baking yeast, they said they don't need it. One of the culture I followed their direction (2/3 cup water, 1/2 cup media), with the thickness of mash potatoes, started 4-5 days ago and I don't see any signs maggots or anything. The other culture I added more water so it wasn't so thick, started 2 days ago. Neither of the culture shows any sign of starting, and in fact the flies try to stay off the media as much as possible.


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## Drew (Nov 9, 2006)

I use josh's and generally follow his instructions. When it is drier (fall,winter, & early spring) I use 3/4 of cup of h2o. If I use the 2/3 the cultures dry out. In the summer I use about 2/3 unless it is extremely humid, then I'll use a little less. It takes about a week for me to start seeing maggots. The first sign of a problem that I see is very 'fat' flies - loaded with eggs. I also notice that they tend not to be near the media. When I see that I usually add a little more water to the culture to get the media right. That usually gets things going. Of course at that point the culture will now be delayed a bit though. I like Josh's media a lot. Like I said when I started using it I had to start with fewer flies than I was use to because his media produced that much better for me. I am sure that any problems that I have had weren't with the media, but rather the conditions or something that I was doing/not doing.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

nathan23 said:


> How long do you get a culture going before you start to even see maggots or larva's, for the hydei? I'm using Josh's mixing media and for the hydei they don't supply baking yeast, they said they don't need it. One of the culture I followed their direction (2/3 cup water, 1/2 cup media), with the thickness of mash potatoes, started 4-5 days ago and I don't see any signs maggots or anything. The other culture I added more water so it wasn't so thick, started 2 days ago. Neither of the culture shows any sign of starting, and in fact the flies try to stay off the media as much as possible.


hydie maggots take a lot longer to show up close to 21 days give or take a few days for temps and conditions.mels take as little as a week to start showing up but can take longer in cooler temps.
i would assume josh's mix has a form of yeast in it already quite possible brewers yeast.
i dont alwas add the bakers or instant yeast pellets to the top of my mixes either i dont think its needed but it dont hurt i geuss.
when the media is wet and sticky the flys dont stay on it as much i wouldnt worry about it, give it some time they should do just fine for you.
craig


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## Drew (Nov 9, 2006)

Just wanted to mention the maggots I see at ~ 1 week are EXTREMELY small. I really need to look for them. I check all of my cultures at one week for maggots. If I don't see them and the flies are loaded with eggs then there is a problem of some sort.


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

Well, I can see small hydei maggots after approx. nine days, longer if it's colder.

Three weeks strikes me as an extremely long time for maggots to appear...


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

ok to clarify things when i say 3 weeks for magots i mean full sized ready to morph out climbing the sides magots , im a year shy of 40 and i couldnt see them as micro or mini size if i wanted too lol 
cheers


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

Oh weeell... in that case you're excused... _old man_...  

Seriously though, what media are you using for the hydei, if you don't mind my asking?


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

Sarkany said:


> Oh weeell... in that case you're excused... _old man_...
> 
> Seriously though, what media are you using for the hydei, if you don't mind my asking?


8 potatoe flakes
1 brewers yeast 
1 icing sugar
pinches of naturose cal and vitimins , if i have it spirilina
water
no chemicals
sometimes i add instant yeast sometimes i dont
and yes i lose some to mold but not very many if i wash and boil the jars every time i reuse not just wash em 
normally i use a excelsior or filters but was out of it for a while, makes feeding maggots easier with out it.and i dont mind at all u asking sharing info is what this site is all about and its why im here to learn or help if i can 
craig


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

WOW somecanadianguy, that's a LOT of maggots you got there. LOL.. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I used the Josh's media for the hydei flies and for the 1st culture I followed the directions (1/2 cup media, 2/3 cup water) but nothing was happening (maybe I didn't give it enough time?). Since, Drew said it might needed more water, I sprayed it with a little water, but now mold has started to grow, but I still don't see any maggots or anything (don't worry Drew I'm not blaming you at all ;O). My 2nd culture, I used more water this time, and the media was not as thick as the first culture, and I don't see any signs of the culture getting started either. It's been 7-8 days since I started the 1st culture, and 5 days since I started the 2nd culture, but there are no signs of the culture getting started at all. What am I doing wrong? How thick should the media be (or it probably depends on what media you use huh?). P.S. My second culture had more of a consistency of the cultures I buy from the pet store the ones with the blue media. My 1st culture had the consistency of mash potatoes, more solid (before I sprayed it down a little).


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## Drew (Nov 9, 2006)

When I add h20 I try and just get it down the side of hte container, I try to avoid wetting the entire thing. Also, I add a little at a time. As far as seeing maggots, I usually see my first after about a week. And they are real small. Some one mentioned not being able to see them with their almost 40 year old eyes - I'm know that feeling unfortunately. I look for them at the edges, where the media meets the container and Imay only see one or two. Temps also play a role. It has been cool here lately. I have cultures from 9/21 that I do not see anything in yet. The consistency seems ok so I'm going to chalk it up to the temps for now. As far as consistency goes if I see any 'cracks' in the media it is too dry. I want it to be mushy but not runny. Hydei are frustrating but worth it. I know once I turn the heat on in the house the temps will be a little more stable and things will be a little more consistent (hopefully).


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

nathan23 said:


> WOW somecanadianguy, that's a LOT of maggots you got there. LOL.. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I used the Josh's media for the hydei flies and for the 1st culture I followed the directions (1/2 cup media, 2/3 cup water) but nothing was happening (maybe I didn't give it enough time?). Since, Drew said it might needed more water, I sprayed it with a little water, but now mold has started to grow, but I still don't see any maggots or anything (don't worry Drew I'm not blaming you at all ;O). My 2nd culture, I used more water this time, and the media was not as thick as the first culture, and I don't see any signs of the culture getting started either. It's been 7-8 days since I started the 1st culture, and 5 days since I started the 2nd culture, but there are no signs of the culture getting started at all. What am I doing wrong? How thick should the media be (or it probably depends on what media you use huh?). P.S. My second culture had more of a consistency of the cultures I buy from the pet store the ones with the blue media. My 1st culture had the consistency of mash potatoes, more solid (before I sprayed it down a little).


it might be that you just havent given it enuff time 7 or 8 days is not that long of a time, just in case id start a few more if they all boom no big deal having too many flies.
i alwas try to make mine the thickness of mash potatoes or porridge myself.
regardless of the mixes i have used over the years some jars do better than others and take off sooner.
if the mold is not really bad i keep the culture going hydie seem to be able to power thrugh all but the worst cases of black death mold.
i use the same mix for hydie and mels in summer months the mels seem to do beter and in the rest of the year the hydie do better , so im sure mositure in the mix and humidity have something to do with the production.
craig


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

nathan23 said:


> WOW somecanadianguy, that's a LOT of maggots you got there. LOL.. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I used the Josh's media for the hydei flies and for the 1st culture I followed the directions (1/2 cup media, 2/3 cup water) but nothing was happening (maybe I didn't give it enough time?). Since, Drew said it might needed more water, I sprayed it with a little water, but now mold has started to grow, but I still don't see any maggots or anything (don't worry Drew I'm not blaming you at all ;O). My 2nd culture, I used more water this time, and the media was not as thick as the first culture, and I don't see any signs of the culture getting started either. It's been 7-8 days since I started the 1st culture, and 5 days since I started the 2nd culture, but there are no signs of the culture getting started at all. What am I doing wrong? How thick should the media be (or it probably depends on what media you use huh?). P.S. My second culture had more of a consistency of the cultures I buy from the pet store the ones with the blue media. My 1st culture had the consistency of mash potatoes, more solid (before I sprayed it down a little).


it might be that you just havent given it enuff time 7 or 8 days is not that long of a time, just in case id start a few more if they all boom no big deal having too many flies.
i alwas try to make mine the thickness of mash potatoes or porridge myself.
regardless of the mixes i have used over the years some jars do better than others and take off sooner.
if the mold is not really bad i keep the culture going hydie seem to be able to power thrugh all but the worst cases of black death mold.
i use the same mix for hydie and mels in summer months the mels seem to do beter and in the rest of the year the hydie do better , so im sure mositure in the mix and humidity have something to do with the production.
craig


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Drew said:


> When I add h20 I try and just get it down the side of hte container, I try to avoid wetting the entire thing. Also, I add a little at a time. As far as seeing maggots, I usually see my first after about a week. And they are real small. Some one mentioned not being able to see them with their almost 40 year old eyes - I'm know that feeling unfortunately. I look for them at the edges, where the media meets the container and Imay only see one or two. Temps also play a role. It has been cool here lately. I have cultures from 9/21 that I do not see anything in yet. The consistency seems ok so I'm going to chalk it up to the temps for now. As far as consistency goes if I see any 'cracks' in the media it is too dry. I want it to be mushy but not runny. Hydei are frustrating but worth it. I know once I turn the heat on in the house the temps will be a little more stable and things will be a little more consistent (hopefully).


Well I got lasik done, so my vision is 20/20, so I don't think I'm just missing them ;OP. Anyways, I think I was too impatient with the first culture and should have given it more time. But this is the first time I have tried to raise my own fruit fly culture, and I thought that their lifespan was only a few days, so I thought it only took a few days to start to see baby maggots or those things that stick on the side of cultures? I sure hope one of the cultures start soon, because it's a little frustrating not knowing what I'm doing wrong =O(. But thanks for your guys help, and sorry to jack your thread Drew =O).


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

I just went down to check on my Hydei culture and the 2nd culture I have has some hope of starting. No I didn't see any maggots, but the funniest thing, I actually saw the flies doing it. LOL... I'm not kidding. I was looking for maggots when I notice a pair of flies, one on top of the other one, with their butts touching. Then I notice a few more pairs doing that too. LOL... The things you get to see in this hobby. LOL.. Hopefully this will get things started (finger's crossed).


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Hollaluya..... My first culture has finally started, I finally see some maggots. I guess I was just too impatient. Thanks for all your help guys. =O).


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

somecanadianguy said:


> 8 potatoe flakes
> 1 brewers yeast
> 1 icing sugar
> pinches of naturose cal and vitimins , if i have it spirilina
> ...


Thanks for the info, Craig! I will definitely try this. (Haven't done the potatoe flakes thing before. )

P.S.: Please don't hit me guys for "spamming" the thread. Innate politeness snuck up on me and hit me over the head.

...

(where's the blushy smiley when you need it?)

...


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## denfrogs (Dec 10, 2007)

something to keep in mind when you are culturing hyedi is that the female flies hatch out first. 
so what im saying is if your making cultures and you go grab your freshly blooming hydei culture to seed the new one with your only going to be putting in female flies.

so if you get very low production or no production before the culture goes bad you might not have enough, or any, male flies


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

Without a doubt Hydei are tricky. They are fickle, fecundant, dirty flies, and they are very sensitive to temperature changes. Some of you who have had after summer or winter crashes will know what I mean. Hydei like it cooler than melanogasters IMO low 70's high 60's. They breed right away, so adults in a container that have been in that container for a while have already dropped their eggs. It's also why you can get booming cultures starting off. It's true that Hydei DO require different media mixes than melanogasters. You will often have poor production of Hydei in melanogaster mixes. They metabolize carbs differently. Also, you have to wait a few days between hatches, sometimes up to 28 days. The pupation throughout the cultures are pretty rigid unlike melanogasters which will almost always display various stages of development in cultures. This "down time" often causes drying out of cultures and can open them up to spoiling, which is another reason production can end up being very low. Still they are a great fly to use, but NOT one I would recommend as a staple fly for your dart frogs diet, that's where melanogasters come in.


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## Drew (Nov 9, 2006)

EDs Fly Meat said:


> Still they are a great fly to use, but NOT one I would recommend as a staple fly for your dart frogs diet, that's where melanogasters come in.


I prefer them(hydei) as my main fly but keep some melano cultures going for that very reason. More often than not I have more flies than needed and feed the hydei more heavily. But when things go poorly I always have melanos on hand. They've saved my butt more than a few times.


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