# New to dart frogs...and just got one...



## bloodraven (Mar 8, 2009)

Hi all. Normally, I'm the type of guy that researches for MONTHS before getting an animal (spent three on water dragons, two on chinchillas, etc.) Today, I went to the Wheaton All Animal Expo in Chicago, expecting to get a Yellow Anaconda. Unfortunately for me, there weren't any. However, I did see a Dart Frog. I had read about them in the past, but didn't think I would ever get one (I had always heard they where expensive, so never looked into buying one). 

However, one caught my eye, one that I read about all those months ago, the one that I stared at at the zoo and in pictures. It was a green and black one, I believe it to be _Dendrobates auratus_. Again, I am not sure on all of these things. The breeder there was very helpful though, and I ended up getting two cultures of fruit flies, some moss, and the frog for $47. I couldn't pass it up, and now, I am in the shoes of those I used to condone...I bought an animal I wasn't prepared for!! I'm a bad person, I know!

Anyway, I got him set up in a 5 gallon now, layered gravel, mesh, fertilizer free topsoil, moss, and some rocks and decor. Now, onto my questions...

As a newbie to all of this, does this all sound right? His humidity is right around the 80 mark, with his temps around 78f. Is the 5 gallon big enough for a single frog? If not, I have a 20L gal I am already looking at and thinking about putting a couple species of PDF's together. What else can live with them? 

Oh, and of course, pics!!!


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

welcome aboard, however do some reading on the care sheets, a 5 gallon is ok for now, but you will have to move him into a larger tank in a few weeks so i would get started on a 10 gallon atleast.


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## vartz04 (Mar 1, 2009)

man i wanted those but i couldnt bring myself to go to the show today and get one since i am not even done putting the cocoa fiber on the back of my tank.

how come you didnt get a pair


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## dart_king (Mar 2, 2008)

A few things:

1. Welcome to the board!
2. Is it just me or does the frog look like he/she has injuries on its nose??
3. 5 gallons is ok for temperarly housing, i would get one or 2 more and put them in the 20 gallon.
4. About mixing species, Dont. Its not something you should be doing especially as a bigginer, people who mix species have lots of experiance and have or atleast should have huge tanks.
5. Humidity and temps sound good.

Good luck!

ryan


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Congrats on the purchase. Now prepare to spend hours on end staring into the terrarium.


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## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

Rock on great choice! welcome to the addiction LOL


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## Chicago Frog Man (Mar 5, 2009)

I live in Glen Ellyn, and was also at the All Animal Expo today and was checking out Peter's Dart Frogs. Too bad he was the only one with Darts! I found a website, Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Dart Frogs & Poison Arrow Dart Frogs Terrarium Animals from Saurian Enterprises, Inc. to be extremely helpful on all kinds of different species of Dart frogs. That would be a great place to do research and the owner of the site, Patrick is very helpful. Be sure to check out the midwest frogfest in Joliet this October to add to your collection! Happy Frogging!


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## scream-aim-fire (Mar 1, 2008)

it does look like your frog has some sores on its nose like dart king said above, you may want to try putting some triple antibiotic ointment on those spots, also you said that you used non fertilizer potting soil a better choice is to use coconut fiber, you can buy it in a brick at most any pet stores. i agree with everyone else about the tank size 5gal is ok for temp but you might want to set up a little bit bigger tank. one more thing that you really need to do is to get fruit fly culturing supplies (media, insect cups, coffee filters, etc.) check out Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Frog Feeder Insects Fruit Flies Fruit Fly Culture Jewel Orchid Dart Frog Terrarium Supplies Vivarium Supplies by Josh's Frogs for that stuff. about the fruit flies this really needs to be the first thing you get the hang of before getting frogs (but you already have the frog so you need to get more cultures going asap), you said you bought a couple of cultures but those will only last you so long, but you can use some of those flies to get more cultures going. also make sure you pick up some vitamin and calcium dust for the flies because you want your froggie to be healthy. good luck


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## bloodraven (Mar 8, 2009)

Thank you all so much for the help so far! I know about the dusting. I have been dusting crickets for my water dragons, but that is only once a week (every feeding for my girl with MBD). How often is it with the PDF? 

I am not sure on his age, but the one's that Peter had (who I bought the FFs from) where MUCH smaller than this guy. This guy is practically full grown I would assume. He is about one inch long (could be way off on that, but he definitely isn't a very young one.) 

Is the 5 gal bad because they are very active frogs? I had read before that it was 5 gal per frog? 

We had used coconut husk for our crested gecko at one time, but then found out that I am not just allergic to coconut through ingesting it. Broke out in a terribly nasty rash. If it will make a huge difference though, I guess I can just wear gloves when I mess with it?

The spots on his face are, apparently, scar tissue that have been there for quite some time. I will rub the antibiotic stuff on there though, just in case!!! Thanks again!


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## vartz04 (Mar 1, 2009)

10 gallon tanks are dirt cheap, Id rather give them the extra room


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

It also looks as if the plants you have in-viv are fake. If so, you will want to start real ones. Also, the rocks need to be in a position that will not roll onto your frog. Some of those look a bit as if they were doing a balancing act. Don't want a rock to roll onto your frog...
And I would start reading all the care sheets and such ASAP.
Good luck,
Rich


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## bloodraven (Mar 8, 2009)

So, is what I have _D. auratus_? And can the other colors of the same species live together? Do they have to live in pairs? Can three work in a 20L? I planned on getting another Black and Green (maybe Bronze if I can find one) and a Black and Blue...would they be okay living together, or would problems creep up because of the different temperaments?

Also, I am planning on using live plants in the bigger setup, but I do have a question, just to satisfy my curiosity...why do I have to have live ones over fake ones? Just curious.

I also found out today that "flightless" fruit flies sure can jump and glide...and when you open the lid up, you will be fighting them. I think I had to kill around 100-200 today because of all the escapees...still finding them. He ate merrily though...probably around 60 of them that actually landed in the tank. He was up and hunting about two hours ago...

Anyway, thanks for all the help yet again!


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

you could probabl keep 3 auratus in a 20 long. If you aernt going to breed them ,I guess you can put 2 or more different morphs in there, but hybridization is assuredly frowned upon in this hobby, as we are trying vey hard to keep location specific strains pure, Im not even going to get into interspecies hybrids. Live plantswill provide them 02 to breathe and breathe their c02 in return, help breakdown their waste, look better, provide amore naturalistic habitat, use some excess water from misting, increase humidity through their respiration . they breathe in c02 and produce 02 and h20 don't you know


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

yes you have a auratus. if you wern't told the morph from the person you got them from, then its going to be a guessing game and you'll never know for certain what you have beyond that it is a green and black auratus.

while the temperments of the different auratus morphs are simmilar enough that you could house them togather without unreasonable stress, it would be going against the morals of the comunnity to house different populations of darts togather. as a whole the hobby is trying to preserve the genes of these frogs in an atempt to reduce WC dart demands by increasing a surplus of breebred CB darts. it would be a shame for another hybrid to leak out into the hobby and distract attention away from the true morphs represented in the wild. we already have so many bloodlines in captivity my head swims tring to keep things straite, i don't want a mutt coming in and confusing me.

darts are not a social species in a strict sense. they do not get lonely and will potentialy live a healthy life alone. 3 auratus will fit in a 20g but i wouldn't put in anymore then that.

the biggest reason behind real plants over fake is because the frogs can tell the difference. real plants will reduce the stress of your frog, and will also help suck out some of the nutrients in your soil that build up as the soil degrades and as your frogs pop on it. plants are so facinating that some of the people in this hobby started out with planted vivariums and after many years decided one day to put a dart frog in one, you don't want to miss out on something that great do you?

as for the FFs im guessing you have the curley wing melanogaster? try getting your hands on wingles, they act more like ants and are easier to control.


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## bloodraven (Mar 8, 2009)

The ones I got are _D. Melanogaster_. It says flightless on the cup. I dusted them today and found out that when dusted..they don't really jump very much...more just wiggle. He ate everything I put in there for him and is now contentedly jumping around and stuff.


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## scream-aim-fire (Mar 1, 2008)

i got a trick for you about keeping the flies from jumping all out of the cup when you open it, get you an empty cup, dump a little vitamin and calcium dust in there and shake it around make sure you get it up a good bit on the walls of the cup, this will keep the flies from climbing out. then get your culture tap it either on the top or the top side of the cup that way all the flies fall down (you may have to tap it a few times to get all of them to fall) to the bottom of the cup this will give you enough time to quickly open the top and then i keep taping the top side of the culture cup as im pouring the flies into the other cup. then once you have enough flies in your cup with dust just shake them around and get them coated then dump them into the tank.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

thats what I do


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## lana (Jul 12, 2006)

Try putting the culture in the freezer for a few seconds,it will calm them till they get in the dust.Just dont forget them,i have lost several that way.Wingless are much easier thats what i switched to.


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## scream-aim-fire (Mar 1, 2008)

yeah wingless are alot slower moving


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## bloodraven (Mar 8, 2009)

Alright, I think I got the hang of this feeding thing. I have fed twice now with only having about 5 flies escape and be killed by me. I also have the screen top wrapped so that they can't get out through there. I just started working on my 20L setup, which should be fun, but a couple more questions...

How can I tell if my frog is male or female? The guy I bought him from didn't know (starting to regret where I got him...*sigh*) Also, if I were to get two more Auratus, would three males be ok? I ask because I want the blue Auratus, but I don't want to risk hybrid breeding, unless I cull the babies, which I am not sure I want to do.


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## bloodraven (Mar 8, 2009)

One more question...do these guys require moving water? If so, that wasn't told to me before!! He has been drinking from his water dish, and his bigger tank will have that in there, just curious to know.


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## Mikembo (Jan 26, 2009)

As nice as it is to have a water feature it is not necessary.


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## bloodraven (Mar 8, 2009)

Ok, a few more questions. Got the plans moving for the 20L and a couple more frogs. Want to put some plants...I know I am going to put some Broms in there...and some type of moss. I was told the type of moss I had purchased the day I got him, but I can't remember what type it is (I have short term memory loss...probably why I can't remember if he was Costa Rican or not....). I know I like it and want some more. i also want something flowery. I want some REALLY easy plants to use, and stuff that won't get too big but still provide enough cover to look good. Also, what kind of moss could grow on drift wood?


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## kawickstrom (Oct 3, 2008)

bloodraven said:


> Also, if I were to get two more Auratus, would three males be ok? I ask because I want the blue Auratus, but I don't want to risk hybrid breeding, unless I cull the babies, which I am not sure I want to do.


Its just best not to mix Period.. That includes species as well as morphs. Just make two vivs. That way you can keep them both separately. Building the vivs is half the fun in my opinion anyway


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

sexing auratus is very difficult, and they pretty much have to be proven true calling or egg laying to be sure about their sex. this means you are going to be hard pressed to find sexed auratus, unlike tincs which are very easy to sex, and are everywhere.

I’ve already told you how I feel about mixing, but no ones going to stop you from what you want to do. as a beginner I guess its better to mix morphs than species, but whatever the rate it can not be pressed upon the members of the community enough to not let hybrids happen. this is best done by culling all eggs, which you said you would do so thank you.

what do you mean your frog was drinking from his water dish?
darts do not need a water dish, as they do not drink. they absorb water threw their skin. its not uncommon for a dart to be found sitting in water as it can balance its water levels this way with less energy expended, but watch out because if they start spending an unusual amount of time sitting in water it can be an indicator of a health problem. darts do not need moving water, but it looks pretty.

any kind of tropical moss will do well in a viv, and even some temperate mosses. some popular ones are java, Kyoto, Christmas, sphagnum, etc. there’s also ricca flutins which look like a moss and will grow in and out of water. if you want hardy plants there’s no better place then going to a local nursery, asking questions, and having them point out some good options for you. also I’ve picked up a decent amount of hardy plants in my vivs from Lowes and Home Depot, I even got a dieing brom on sale for 2.99 that puped out into 4 broms.


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## bloodraven (Mar 8, 2009)

basshummper said:


> sexing auratus is very difficult, and they pretty much have to be proven true calling or egg laying to be sure about their sex. this means you are going to be hard pressed to find sexed auratus, unlike tincs which are very easy to sex, and are everywhere.
> 
> I’ve already told you how I feel about mixing, but no ones going to stop you from what you want to do. as a beginner I guess its better to mix morphs than species, but whatever the rate it can not be pressed upon the members of the community enough to not let hybrids happen. this is best done by culling all eggs, which you said you would do so thank you.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for the answers! With the mix morphs...I would probably cull eggs if it came down to it, but I don't want anyone to hate me and not help me out when I have questions, so I think I might wait and think about it some more. 

Are there any flowers that are dangerous, or will anything pretty much work?

As for the drinking, I'm dumb. I meant sitting, but I wrote water dish and automatically thought drinking....me = dur hur.


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

in regaurds to plants, anything will pretty much work.


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## kawickstrom (Oct 3, 2008)

bloodraven said:


> Are there any flowers that are dangerous, or will anything pretty much work?
> 
> As for the drinking, I'm dumb. I meant sitting, but I wrote water dish and automatically thought drinking....me = dur hur.


Nope no flowers that I know of that are harmful.

And a water dish is not needed. Most my tanks have no standing water in them at all. I have a pauladaruim with a large water feature and I have two tincs in it. One likes to "swim" in it while the other couldn't care in the slightest. Its really not needed. Any pond and such is mainly for aesthetics.


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## bloodraven (Mar 8, 2009)

Good to know! I'm thinking of having a pond in my new viv, but not really sure how I'm going to do it. Might have a small, shallow "stream" right down the middle with a ceramic bridge going across it, then some driftwood, rocks, vines, moss, and a background. 

Another question (they just keep coming, don't they!) Where can I get leaf litter?


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

Your backyard, and then bake it. Or.... joshsfrogs.com has some. Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Frog Feeder Insects Fruit Flies Fruit Fly Culture Jewel Orchid Dart Frog Terrarium Supplies Vivarium Supplies by Josh's Frogs


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

not just joshsfrogs, but many vendors on here sell leaf litter. you can also find leaf litter from time to time in the "for sale" section. you could even post a wanted ad and will get an explosive reaction. I’m thrifty so I collect oak leaves in the fall.


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## bloodraven (Mar 8, 2009)

Will do that!

On another note, I had been wondering about the FF's that got away. The ones that where too high in his tank or hiding...how is he going to get them? Then it dawned on me...fruit flies...eat...fruit! I put a small peice of apple in there, and before I knew it, he was sitting right by the apple, picking off any fly that dared try to eat it!! Smart little buggers...

I think I have decided to stick with the green and blacks. I may do a smaller viv for just the blue and blacks later one, but I'm not sure yet. PDF's where not at all what I had in mind to breed (To let you know, I was planning on breeding Water Dragons, Mountain Horned Dragons, and Frilled Dragons, to help keep the wild caughts down a little, and try to help promote Captive Breeding projects of them.) It seems that with PDF's, its a little bit of the same. So, I guess if they breed, they breed, and I'll sell them along with my dragons (that doesn't sound right, but I'm sure you know what I mean lol)

But I'm not changing the name of my site from The Dragon's Den


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

when the frogs get hungry enough they will climb the glass to get at the FFs. also like your doing, people will use feeding stations. these are especially handy for quarantine containers. to keep your fruit from decomposing into your soil you can use plastic bottle caps to hold the fruit.


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