# Golden Hydei



## tikifrog (May 11, 2004)

I ordered a couple of cultures and went seed new cultures to find that there were regular black hydei mixed in with the golden. I have not had hydei for several months so I can't believe there was external contamination. Is this strain producing both types of flies? Should I not use this batch to re establish my hydei cultures? Will these guys cross back into fliers? Anyone else get mixed cultures of these?

John R.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I hadn't even thought about the "golden" aspect of my Hydeii's in ages.

I just took a look and they really don't seem all that Golden anymore!

But there does not appear to be mulitple color types either - just darker than they were before (though not black).

s


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

Agreed,Mine also have diminished in their golden glory.
later


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

The gold color is simply an induced mutation. It can sway back and forth based on gene sprting, but the mutation can get bred out so to speak.
Dave


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

If the gold were a simple single mutation, one would expect either gold flies or black flies, not faded flies though. They all seem to fade uniformly, as well.


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## tikifrog (May 11, 2004)

Well so much for these GUCCI designer flies :!: I guess the "new and improved" white ones and the "new and improved" smaller ones will probably breed out as well.

John R.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I don't know about the white ones, but the smaller ones are actually a different species, which happens to be smaller (that is if you are talking about the Drosophilia simulans).


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Just feed out of the end of your cultures for "smaller" food. 

s


Catfur said:


> I don't know about the white ones, but the smaller ones are actually a different species, which happens to be smaller (that is if you are talking about the Drosophilia simulans).


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

How exactly do you modify a fruit fly?


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## JERRY (Dec 14, 2004)

*flies*

forget the blue eye, gold eye, upside down fly, and think of what the frog would eat. Basically anything it can get in its mouth and is moving. I sometimes wonder why some of these advertisers of morphed flies spend so much time in trying to convince the frog community that their white eyed or gold eyed or whatever is going to make the difference in the frogs appetite. The question should be..........does the frog really care?

So here is the answer from our perspective. Offer as much of a variety of
food prey as possible, watch what will be eaten and get to know your frogs eating habits instead of your flys mating habits!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Variations in FFs are not variations in food. They just come in slightly different packages 

Honestly, how would "golden" hydei help me feed out my frogs? I dust them... most are eaten right away. The color of the flies doesn't matter to me or the frog, especially when no matter the color of the fly, what they see is dust color!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

So every fly you ever put in was eaten immediately?

s


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## JERRY (Dec 14, 2004)

*Common sense seems to dictate*

that in the wild as with all herps, these creatures are opportunistic feeders. If it crosses their path, and they can get it into their mouths , they will eat it. But only they know whats best for them. So vary the diet as much as possible. Its good herp sense to know your animals eating habits. 

But when I see advertisers using words such as "delicious" or attributing a color scheme to a flys eye, then one really has to wonder who are these ads being directed to. These frogs eat flies...............period! they also eat other insects as well..............period. The fact that a flies eye is Golden or Red , or White eyed really does not alter their eating habits. Does the frog really receive the benefit of a Golden Hydei? I doubt it. From the information that brought this subject up , its apparent that whatever color the eye is , it seems to revert to its original eye color after some generations. Just keep the frogs healthy and dont get sidetracked by some of these advertising schemes that border on the ridiculous. Unless you tasted these flies, I doubt their is a single person on this board that can say they are delicious , so its going to be good for my frog!


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I would definitely agree that the term "Delicious" boarders on the idiotic and brings a chuckle to my heart BUT as far as the color is concerned and even the eye color I cant agree. Knowing my frogs as I do I definitely believe that color differences can and do entice some individual animals more readily to find and eat the ff. I haven't yet had the chance to experiment but wonder if it may have an impact on a sick frog to entice them when they don't normally eat. And as you say using a variety of food is good and certainly one with a little different color can't hurt.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I've been kicking this idea around for a while...
I know the claims are that a lighter colored prey is supposed to be more enticing, so I can understand the benifit.
On the other hand, look how many people are looking for ways to "enhance" or maintain color of their frogs by adding paprika, spirulina, cyclopeeze, or whatever.
I can imagine it would be easier to engineer flies without color, but wouldn't it be something if they could develop a fly that had more color, that could be digested, then expressed (hopefully) by the animal that ate it.
In the same way, it would be nice to have a "super fly" that wouldn't need to be dusted...even if you could get the calcium to phosphorous ratio up, that would be nice.
Just some ideas,


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

The color of the fly hasn't helped any of my adult frogs, but I can say it seems to help out the froglets triggering a strong feeding response as apposed to a darker fly.But one cool thing is that some of these diff morphs of flys actually move differant than their counterparts slower movement etc and it has improved the frogs success rate.I have watched my mantella's miss after miss a regular hydei but the goldens are slower and they seem to get more of them.
cya


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

"golden delicious" is the name of a rather nice apple variety. Every time I see that name I think of apples not flies... saw it a couple days before they put it up on the forum... was very entertained.

I suppliment my animals with peprika not to "enhance" anything, I'm trying to get a captive bred animal that is obviously missing something in its diet to develop its full color potential. Aka, what they look like in the wild. "Enhancing" makes it sound like I'm trying to make them better than what nature provided, which is not what I'm trying to do... I'm trying to come close to matching nature... its a bit of a pet peeve of mine to have that term used. Few WCs are floating around the hobby so less colorful CBs are what most people except as the frog looking like. I look at my roomate's cobalts, gorgeous and happy frogs, but very pale to me, where they are plenty colorful to others. They look pale to me because I've seen WC cobalts, and the difference is significant in my mind. If you've never seen a WC animal, would you even know there was a difference?

I don't think we can genetically modify the FFs into a "better food". It just really comes down to the animal either needing a better staple (I prefer crickets over FFs as a staple, but they lack the ease and convienience of FFs), or no staple at all and just a bunch of varieties of food. PDFs are not like dogs, we can't design the "perfect" insect for them to eat since they need the food to be moving (yes, I know, we haven't designed the perfect dog food either, but we feed them kibbles instead of various fresh meets don't we?). I like working with the various feeder bugs a lot so I'm willing to have the 7+ tips of bugs around and spend as much time working the bugs as the frogs or the plants - and in the future I hope my froglets will show this.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

They will.
later


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## JERRY (Dec 14, 2004)

*flies and such*

DAVID, Let me say , that I happen to agree with you with regard to color and what may or may not attract a frog to a fly. Not only are we in the business, but I have maintained my own frog collection for 15 years. 

As much as color may induce a frog to move toward that fly, it will also devour flies in its path without even thinking about it. It eats like a machine. Whatever crosses its path ends up as lunch. 

We sell fruitflies as a food source. As much as I enjoy the business of selling these pests, I know that the answer is not in attempting to exploit some color attribute as a selling feature because regardless of whatever color the eye is, ..........it will be eaten, sooner or later. Now if we had a larger fly that was flightless (larger than Hydei) then that would be newsworthy, but Golden Harvest flies or Golden Eye flies or flies that dont climb up, is , or whatever some of these desperate attempts to conjure business for selling flies borders on laughter.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Jerry,
Strongly agreed.............I am a sales guy and laughed at the attempt on all levels, while at the same time it probably POed you being in the business and working a legitimate strategy. It also pisses me off in my business when a competitor or anyone like a client says something stupid about the product and yet somehow it gets branded as that. You might try raising SUPER FLIES.......we'll all joke, but the branding will catch and everyone will want to order the super fly and try them out on their frogs. :wink: 
Best Regards,


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## JERRY (Dec 14, 2004)

*flies*

DAVID, welcome to the Herp business. You are 100% correct. Generally and taking into consideration that we have been established over 15 years, well before other fly suppliers, I can only say..............it only happens in the herp business. 

I dont know whether to laugh or cry sometimes when it comes to some of the advertisings, but I do know that the emphasis seems to be misplaced. We have been selling Hydei and Melanogaster for along time. ..........Not one frog has ever complained to us over the fact that the eye color seems to be more attractive in harvest gold as opposed to red. 

But who am I to argue.................Thanks again, Dave, JERRY


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2006)

Actually, the Golden D.hydei is a purely recessive trait. The Flightless Golden D. hydei was developed in our lab. It will not revert to black if the line is kept pure. Of course if you get a standard hydei in the culture, you will see black flies. However, the Golden hydei's coloration can be a little lighter or darker based on nutrition and hydration, but nowhere near black. 

I find it funny that people would suggest that these flies don't add value to a frogs diet. They are slightly larger than standard hydei. - therfore making for a larger meal. They out produce standard hydei as a result of "hybrid vigor". The lighter color certainly increases feeding response in visual predators (ie: your dart frogs), especially those that are picky eaters. Simply put, it's a great fly.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I'm wondering what you mean by adding value to a frogs' diet (I'm guessing over the standard flightless hydei?). I realise that these flies might be called more "attractive" to a frog, tho I dislike using that term in relation to these frogs, as it sounds like they would literally prefer a golden hydei over a black hydei (like we prefer a filet mignon over standard steak) when the color difference really only would effect how quickly they catch site of bug, and how easily they keep it in site, compared to the background its on (not that they prefer it over black, golden is not the new black!). The one time I've fed the goldens the reaction was like when I've fed dusted flies, they were easier to see, and eaten faster on the dark leaf litter substrate. Since I dust my flies a lot, this usually isn't an issue. To me they are basically the same as the standard flightless hydei and I don't need a feeder in two different colors, I need two feeder with different nutritional content (5 different genetic variations of melanos is not helping your frogs' diet in that respect) or significantly different size (like melano vs. hydei vs. housefly).

I'm not trying to dismiss the golden hydei as a good feeder, I just think they shouldn't be added to your list of FF variations you culture thinking they are that different from the standard flightless hydei. Pick one or the other, they have the same nutritional content. If you don't powder them that much for whatever reason, and you have a dark substrate, with the goldens you'll end up with more being eaten more likely, so they'd probibly be a better choice, that's about it.


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## JERRY (Dec 14, 2004)

Corey , your absolutely correct. If you take a look at my earlier post on the subject, "We sell fruitflies as a food source. As much as I enjoy the business of selling these pests, I know that the answer is not in attempting to exploit some color attribute as a selling feature because regardless of whatever color the eye is, ..........it will be eaten, sooner or later. Now if we had a larger fly that was flightless (larger than Hydei) then that would be newsworthy, but Golden Harvest flies or Golden Eye flies or flies that dont climb up, is , or whatever some of these desperate attempts to conjure business for selling flies borders on laughter."

The fruitfly is what it is! I can tell you unequivocally, after being here for 15 years at the same business, their are only so many ways you can sell a fruitfly. The bottom line is that the frog is an eating machine, and will devour whatever it can when it crosses its path. Feed it well !


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2006)

Hi Corey,

By added value I am referring to increased consumption, fewer escaped flies, different size, and of course better production - true if you dust your flies every time you may get a comparable consumption rate. But, I don't think that is a good practice and probably isn’t practical for many keepers- of course that's a topic for another post.

If your argument is purely nutritional, then the nutritional values in standard colored flies and color variants seem to be similar - but not the same. We're currently having the nutritional values of all of our feeders analyzed and the tests so far seem to support that there is some difference between lines of flies as well as between species of flies. Of course this is a process that is expensive, takes a lot of flies per test and requires a few tests. As, it's still in its infancy - let me digress, I'll post more on it later. Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that this line or that line is better food for a frog - just that it would seem that they are not the same nutritionally. 

I’m suggesting that searching for new strains of flies (and other feeders) is something that is good for our hobby and I wish more people were working on it. 

Take the cattle industry as an example. It may be accurate to say that a cow "is what it is". But that would be a pretty short sighted observation. Compare for example Belgian Blues, Angus, and Holsteins. The fact is that selective breeding for different lines of cattle has produced animals with different nutritional values, different gestation periods, and different growth rates. All of which could be beneficial traits if brought to Drosophila. 

That is what we are trying to do for the hobby - FlyCulture wants to bring as much possible variety (by any definition) into our animals' diets. Jerry's ascertain that this is “desperate attempts to conjure business for selling flies" certainly is laughable. We sold only wingless melanogaster and flightless hydei for the first couple of years that we were in business and did so quite successfully. Those flies remain the cornerstone of our facility and helped us grow into the largest Drosophila lab in the US. Regardless, I'm sure that our efforts at bringing new feeders to the hobby will continue regardless of what our competitors think. Of course you can raise frogs, on just wingless melanogaster. But I’m confident that I'm not alone in believing that there is benefit in offering them variety.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Mmmmmmm cows. Now I'm going to have to go get a burger (Angus, mind you). But like my Mom always made me remember, I have to eat my veggies too (and the green peppers on the burger don't count). So while we might have a nice variety of cows to choose from (or flies for our frogs) I guess I'm just saying we have to remember to feed other bugs as well (their version of veggies) and that FFs don't make a complete diet for them. And thus, I wait eagerly for Black Springtails and Dwarf Woodlice to add to my RFBs, shorelinite beetles, pinheads, springtails, and, of course, fruit flies I'm currently culturing (and not counting the seasonal treats of termites and aphids and the occassional silkies just because they are fun to hatch).

Are you going to be doing the nutritional content of the other bugs you work with as well?

I didn't know the golden hydei produced more than the standard flightless hydei line... you should post this stuff on your site lol. Is it comparable to the different between wingless and flightless lines of melanogaster?


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## JERRY (Dec 14, 2004)

would it be to much to ask to show us some photos of the largest Drosophila Laboratory in the US. That has to be very impressive Derek. Here is a picture of our packing room. Lets see yours


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

Brian and all,
I personally use our enhanced media to feed our frogs for several reasons. 1. i can keep the feeders seperate from the sellers (sold all of Daves food once!) 2. it adds nutrition to the flies. I dont sell it as a color enhancer for the "frog". Some people think this works and maybe it does, but i am just going for more nutrition.
just my 2 cents
Thanks!
Erin


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I am not familiar yet with the Golden hydei but I did purchase the Tiffany's Golden Delicious (Wingless Melanogaster) variety a while back and at least for me they were a disappointment. They tended to be smaller than the melanogaster I have been carrying and most important they were very low producers. To be fair I must say that I just used my standard media and didn't mess around with what was best for this particular variety but side by side with what I did I would say they were 1/3-1/2 the production of my regulars. Also some of you may laugh but I did take the color issue serious because I believed that the light color would be easier to see for the PDF. At least in my observations when I put the FF in the tanks mixed or separate I did not see the Golden color being to any advantage. The one advantage I did see and appreciate but that in no way over came the negatives was that when they escaped they weren't as repulsing to others because they had no wings. So I just let my "Golden" cultures die out. Just my experience and I don't have an ax to grind.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Hey Dave - I actually like that strain ("Golden Delicious") bc/ they're smaller. As I recall - they actually advertised them to be smaller.

Mine produce pretty well - but they do seem to take longer to develop.

s


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Scott,
I don't think there was anything to dislike other than the lower production. Size is not big deal and you are right I think that was listed as an advantage. I don't see the description any more on the website where I bought them.

What do you like about them? Just something new or was there something I missed?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Your first post mentioned size and production. I'm just pointing out that size is an advantage (for me).

I'm used to rooting around older cultures *looking* for smaller flies for my baby frogs. These basically come at the right size to feed baby frogs.

I have no production problem with them. It is possible that it seems like a production problem - but just remember that they'll take up less volume because they are smaller.

s


dmatychuk said:


> ... What do you like about them? Just something new or was there something I missed?


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

I agree Scott....the golden's or Tiffany's Golden Delicious to be exact  are smaller and therefore are great for feeding baby frogs. I've had the same experience in that they are slow to get going at first but now they are pretty straightforward. 

I just have to be careful to not get the golden's, wingless and flightless cultures mixed up or I'll have golden fliers :evil: 

Bill


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Jerry, Derek,

I'm sure we'll all be delighted to see pictures of your labs, cultures and front offices. But I hope we don't have a debate as to who has the biggest, baddest packing room....besides Dave and Erin might win that one....hehehe. Otherwise we might have to put it up as a poll for the board to vote on :wink: 

Bill


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## JERRY (Dec 14, 2004)

Drew, ok maybe you do not have a shipping room . But as the largest Drosophila Lab, how about a photo of the lab. Its not often that someone claims to have something larger than anyone else in the United States. 
Please as a 2nd request, lets see some photos, or should I take your statement with a grain of salt !


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2006)

elmoisfive said:


> Jerry, Derek,
> 
> I'm sure we'll all be delighted to see pictures of your labs, cultures and front offices. But I hope we don't have a debate as to who has the biggest, baddest packing room....besides Dave and Erin might win that one....hehehe. Otherwise we might have to put it up as a poll for the board to vote on :wink:
> 
> Bill


Don't worry Bill; We've grown accustomed to Teri pestering us and I'm not interested in debating with him about the size of our facility on this thread. I was enjoying the discussion about the merits of new varieties of feeders. I guess he doesn't have much experience with that and couldn't come up with any valuable input...That seems to be a reoccurring theme in his posts...Of course if Teri would like to raise “the who has a larger facility” debate on an appropriate thread, I'd be happy to oblige.





Scott said:


> Your first post mentioned size and production. I'm just pointing out that size is an advantage (for me).
> 
> I'm used to rooting around older cultures *looking* for smaller flies for my baby frogs. These basically come at the right size to feed baby frogs.
> 
> ...


Scott/David, 

We haven't had the opportunity to work with the "golden delicious" line that was offered a little while back. Although we do carry a similar line that has carries the same miniature gene. The line that we developed is winged and if I remember correctly the “golden delicious” line was apterous. It's my understanding that the miniature gene exhibits a lethal combination when partnered with other specific genes. So a slight decrease in production may be noticed, but shouldn’t be significant. The line that we have compares to the normal wingless melanogaster line and from your posts it sounds like the “golden delicious” line does as well. If anyone has a culture or two of the “golden delicious” that they could spare, I’d be willing to make a nice trade for some.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

.... grrrr, early morning mistake ...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

DerekRader said:


> ... If anyone has a culture or two of the “golden delicious” that they could spare, I’d be willing to make a nice trade for some.


I've got plenty of them - but I haven't noticed any other ff sellers selling Turkish Gliders or Golden Hydeii.

Isn't there some sort of Gentleman's agreement to not step on each other's toes here (or at least not covet their fly lines)?

s


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

If anyone is interested in looking at some really big Drosophila labs, check this site out....Bill

http://www.ceolas.org/fly/labs.html


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

My Drospholia lab is smaller than all of yours! I've got the most compact lab in the US!!!


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Rats you beat me to it............mine is the smallest










This is both my lab and shipping dept. If you think yours is still smaller than I dare you to post a picture Josh.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

:lol:


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

This is an artistic intrepretation of the worlds smallest Drospholia Lab. I actually made one, but my camera decided not to work after I made it. >(
It is a 2 Tablespoon measuring cup.



http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/a ... ULTURE.bmp


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

bluedart said:


> This is an artistic intrepretation of the worlds smallest Drospholia Lab. I actually made one, but my camera decided not to work after I made it. >(
> It is a 2 Tablespoon measuring cup.


Better watch out Josh...I hear that the Japanese are hard at work perfecting the 1 Tablespoon laboratory.

Bill


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

uh oh....

Hey, I couldn't get the pic to work. Any ideas?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I think its because its a .bmp rather than a .jpg or .gif


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Dang. Josh, it looks like I will have to concede. Not only are you smaller but you run a pretty shabby operation. In addition I believe with the mixing procedure that you are using your production levels are pretty low as well and I just haven't been able to get that technique down. I wonder who is going to be the stinkiest? :wink:


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

bluedart said:


> uh oh....
> 
> Hey, I couldn't get the pic to work. Any ideas?


Josh,

I edited your post to just include the link...now it works. As Corey said, it didn't show up as an image file because it was a .bmp as opposed to .jpg

Nice drawing btw.

Bill


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

dmatychuk said:


> Dang. Josh, it looks like I will have to concede. Not only are you smaller but you run a pretty shabby operation. In addition I believe with the mixing procedure that you are using your production levels are pretty low as well and I just haven't been able to get that technique down. I wonder who is going to be the stinkiest? :wink:


Actually, the production is really high. You just can't see the flies.

That's the magic of my strain of melanogaster. It's the "invisible delicious" strain. All frogs that won't eat can be entered under the "anorexic" title. If they don't see the flies, they think that they won't gain any weight, so they'll eat up. So, my strain is the best, because frogs will go after them more quickly. 

Thanks, Bill.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

hey all,
i`m trying to contact my girlfriends friend seth. he has a phd in microbiology thru fruit fly genetics. he currently runs a lab at u.b., not the biggest, but a lab nonetheless w/ a bunch of phd students who do the same thing and a lot of grant money.
he told me he can make me a flourescent fruit fly or glo in the dark fly(i cant remember which, it was after a couple beers). i said yes, but will it be flightless?!? lol. it`s thru genetic modification though and wouldnt pass on the trait as far as i know. and sure wouldnt be good for the frogs as far as i know.
he should be able to give me nutritional content or makeup of different types and mutations. i`ll ask him a couple questions and post what i find.

btw: fruit flies will produce in all dark conditions but they produce better if given a day/night cycle. little tidbit i remember from the same conversation.


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