# Dart frog passed away suddenly



## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

Hello, 

My 1 and a half year old Azureus dart frog died this morning quite suddenly. I have two frogs which share an 18x18x18 ExoTerra glass vivarium. I didn't notice any serious symptoms before today. I've been feeding regularly 3-4 times a week with Hydei fruit flies. Both of my frogs have been eating well at every feeding. The temperature of the tank stays a constant 70-75 degrees Fahrenheit which is the room temperature of my house. I mist every morning and the humidity is always above 90% in the tank at all hours.

There has been some mold growing in my tank recently (within the last 3 or so months). It's a relatively small amount that's isolated to a corner of the tank, but I read up that the mold has no impact on the frog's health, so I removed what I could by hand and put springtails to clean the rest. 

I should also mention that the habitat is built as a paludarium. There is water in the front of the tank separated from the drainage layer by a plexiglass barrier that is watertight. The water section accounts for between a quarter and a third of the tank's depth. There aren't any fish in the paludarium side currently, only a few plants and decorative rocks. The frogs are *not *able to access the water (I use a screen above the water to server as a barrier between both sides of the paludarium). 

I really would like to know any information that you might have for what could have caused this. I'm suspecting that they may have contracted some disease and I am now very concerned for my other frog's health. Has anyone had this before? Any help and advice is appreciated!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Hello, sorry to hear about your frog. To help us assist you please answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste):

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?

3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?

4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?

5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).

6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?

7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?

10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


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## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

Thank you. I will try to provide as many details as I can.

1. I attached picture of my _Dendrobates tinctorius "Azureus" _dart frog below. I don't have a recent picture of the one that had passed away, but this is the one that's alive and currently residing in the tank. I've had both frogs for roughly a year now. I purchased both from Josh's frogs when they were juveniles (I'm assuming no more than a few months old).

2. There isn't any special heating equipment I use for the tank. The temperature of the tank is the same as my house temperature which is always around 70 degrees Fahrenheit. The tank temperature currently reads 74.1 degrees Fahrenheit from a digital thermometer. The temperature drops slightly during the nighttime, but never goes below 65 degrees Fahrenheit. 

3. I use aquarium LED lights and keep them on for 12 hours during the day (12 hours off at night and into early morning). They do not emit any heat.

4. The humidity reads as 99% from my hydrometer. I use dechlorinated tap water to mist my tank and mist every morning. The humidity drops at night time, but stays above 80%. I only hand mist using a spray bottle. 

5. The tank has inbuilt ventilation at the front. The top has a screen mesh which I place plexiglass cutouts over to keep the humidity sealed for a longer time. I took a picture of the top of the setup which is attached below.

6. I provide 20-30 Hydei fruit flies per feeding. I dust using RepCal calcium with Vitamin D3 annd RepCal Herptivite Multivitamins. I mostly use calcium when dusting and occasionally switch out with multivitamins, but use both fairly consistently and always dust during feedings. They are old containers that I've had for a few years, but I've used them for my other reptile (a leapord gecko) which does fine with the supplements. I always keep them tightly closed after use.

7. I housed two Azureus frogs together. There is only one in the tank now as the other has passed, but I haven't seen any strong signs of aggression between them. They've gotten along quite well.

8. Not anything unusual. 

9. There isn't any contaminants near the tank and I haven't handled either of them recently. 

10. Pictures below:


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

You said the second frog died this morning. Could you snap a photo of the body and post it? Perhaps experienced eyes can see something relevant.


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## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> You said the second frog died this morning. Could you snap a photo of the body and post it? Perhaps experienced eyes can see something relevant.


I'm sorry, I've already disposed of the frog from the tank. I didn't think to take any pictures, but if it helps, when I found the frog his limbs were all sprawled out and he was isolated to a corner of the tank with his mouth open. In terms of size, he's roughly the same as my other frog. 

I am noticing now that my current frog is being a little more lethargic than usual. I fed him this morning and he ate well, but he hasn't been moving around as often as he used to. I'm not sure whether I am being paranoid now, but I'm trying to pay as close attention to his behavior as I can.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Some things that stand out:

-- The remaining frog is very thin.

-- RepCal supplements are not thought to be a good choice for dart frogs (I wouldn't use them for leos, either; they were designed for herbivores and omnivores).

-- Supplements should be stored in the fridge, and discarded after 6 months.

-- The label directions on those supplements direct you to mix the two in a 50/50 ratio, not to use either separately, and not to go heavy on one of them.

-- The viv has basically no ventilation with the top sealed.

-- The viv has very little area for the frogs to go dry out, and no leaf litter.

-- With the water area, the viv has insufficient surface area for the frogs to make a range of surface choices, and essentially no climbing areas (same problem with lack of choice).

-- A year old hygrometer that hits saturation regularly is likely damaged.

Other folks will have other thoughts, but I'd suspect nutritional deficiency of some sort, given the supplement situation. There could have been some sort of infection that took hold due to the combination of a lack of microclimate choices and a nutritional issue. 

Going forward, I'd pull the water feature, add climbing areas, improve the ventilation, and use Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding and dispose of it every six months.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I have nothing to add onto what @Socratic Monologue has said. The remaining frog is very thin and those supplements are not really appropriate for dart frogs.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

First thing I would do is immediately set up either new housing or temporary housing with appropriate substrate, leaf litter, and about 70% average relative humidity with some ventilation. Buy the appropriate supplements, keep them refrigerated.

No way I would leave the frog in that tank. I agree that nutritional deficiencies and incorrect environmental parameters may have contributed to a compromised immune system. Search this forum for the correct way to set up D. tinctorius habitats. 

I'm sorry you had to experience this; it's one of the things we discuss here often. You can set up a sub-optimal environment and think the frogs are doing well in it, but over time it takes its toll.


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## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

Thank you for all the advice. I greatly appreciate it. I've heard good things about RepCal's products, so it's surprising to hear that they aren't the best. I will make a switch and discard the old products. Is this the product from Repashy which you recommend (https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/repashy-super-foods-calcium-plus-supplement)?

It's hard to hear that my frog may be thin or have some nutritional deficiency. Am I underfeeding? I've read that I should be feeding 3-4 times a week which is the schedule I have been maintaining. 

The leaflitter is also old, but I can replenish using new leaves also. When adding leaf litter, I use what I can collect from my backyard and boil them before leaving them to dry. Is this a safe method? 

The top isn't airtight sealed. There is ventilation which allows air to pass through. Would removing one half of the plexiglass be a better approach? I'm also wary of humidity escaping the tank too quickly since the cover of the tank uses a wire mesh. 

I'll also pull the water feature as soon as possible and expand the floorspace. 

Is there anything else I should be doing immediately moving forward to ensure my frog's health? I want to make sure he survives and is kept well.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

FrogBoy321 said:


> It's hard to hear that my frog may be thin or have some nutritional deficiency. Am I underfeeding?


It sounds as if the frogs were getting plenty of fruit flies, so likely a supplement issue. Like I mentioned, possibly a pathogen secondary to the supplement issue.

This is Repashy Calcium Plus:






Products by Size :: 3 oz Jar :: Calcium Plus 3 oz (85g) JAR - Repashy Ventures - Specialty Pet Products


Calcium Plus VITAMIN AND CALCIUM SUPPLEMENT Our “All-in-One” Calcium Supplement with added Vitamins Trace Minerals and Carotenoids for Dusting Insects No need for a Separate Vitamin Supplement DIRECTIONS Use with every insect feeding Best applied by placing insects in a plastic bag or




www.store.repashy.com


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## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

Fahad said:


> First thing I would do is immediately set up either new housing or temporary housing with appropriate substrate, leaf litter, and about 70% average relative humidity with some ventilation. Buy the appropriate supplements, keep them refrigerated.
> 
> No way I would leave the frog in that tank. I agree that nutritional deficiencies and incorrect environmental parameters may have contributed to a compromised immune system. Search this forum for the correct way to set up D. tinctorius habitats.
> 
> I'm sorry you had to experience this; it's one of the things we discuss here often. You can set up a sub-optimal environment and think the frogs are doing well in it, but over time it takes its toll.


I am new to this hobby and have tried to make a paludarium work, but it's been a difficult process to correctly implement and I think it's for the best that I scrap the idea. It's just surprising how suddenly this has happened since the frogs have been mostly active recently. 

Thank you for your advice. I do have a plastic tub that I can use as a temporary place for the frog to reside while I make changes to the vivarium. I can collect leaf litter immediately and move the frog in. How can I correct any nutritional problems the frog may have besides switching the supplements that I use? Should I make any changes to my feeding schedule?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

FrogBoy321 said:


> Is this the product from Repashy which you recommend [...]


The link isn't working, but the product is called Repashy Calcium Plus. Keep it refrigerated. Light dusting every feeding. Discard and replace every 6 months.



FrogBoy321 said:


> It's hard to hear that my frog may be thin or have some nutritional deficiency. Am I underfeeding?


Your issue is unlikely to be underfeeding. It's already been pointed out the environment is incorrect and the supplementation was likely ineffective. As the frog is underweight I might offer daily but smaller feedings for a while and see how it responds.



FrogBoy321 said:


> The leaflitter is also old, but I can replenish using new leaves also. When adding leaf litter, I use what I can collect from my backyard and boil them before leaving them to dry. Is this a safe method?


Assuming there are no chemicals used in your backyard and you're not close to a congested motorway, boiling should be sufficient. What you do need to do is research a substrate choice with adequate drainage and use _a lot_ of leaf litter.



FrogBoy321 said:


> The top isn't airtight sealed. There is ventilation which allows air to pass through. Would removing one half of the plexiglass be a better approach? I'm also wary of humidity escaping the tank too quickly since the cover of the tank uses a wire mesh.


Even though it isn't airtight you need more ventilation than that. It's very difficult to make recommendations because everyone's ambient environment is different, but the broad rule of thumb is that you mist, and surfaces within the tank -- the top of the leaf litter, hardscape, plants -- dry out in 2 or 3 hours. When there's enough leaf litter, there's a vertical moisture gradient wherein the frogs can seek higher humidity microclimates beneath the leaf litter if so desired. You need more of a gap than what's seen in that photo.



FrogBoy321 said:


> I'll also pull the water feature *as soon as possible* and expand the floorspace.


The whole tank should be stripped and redone, which is why I recommend at least moving the frog out of there to more appropriate conditions.



FrogBoy321 said:


> Is there anything else I should be doing immediately moving forward to ensure my frog's health? I want to make sure he survives and is kept well.


Look up all things Tinctorius in the archives here, and follow the recommendations. Good luck with it!


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

FrogBoy321 said:


> I am new to this hobby and have tried to make a paludarium work, but it's been a difficult process to correctly implement and I think it's for the best that I scrap the idea. It's just surprising how suddenly this has happened since the frogs have been mostly active recently.


I think I answered most of your questions while you were typing them.

Paludariums and water features are a perennial bone of contention on this forum. People always arguing about 'making them work' and 'not having a problem'.

There are dozens and dozens of posts so I won't repeat their content; I would personally never recommend them as they're unnecessary and problematic from start to finish.

It's not surprising at all, to your second point -- reptiles and amphibians may often seem fine just before they 'fall off the cliff' metaphorically speaking. That's why we err on the side of caution in designing their habitats to be as free of potential problems as possible.


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## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

Alright, so I've just purchased Repashy Calcium Plus which I'll be using moving forward. I've also collected a bunch of leaf litter from my yard which I boiled and is now drying.

I understand the need to redo the current set-up of the tank, but is it necessary to remove all of the substrate and strip everything down? I use ABG mix from Josh's Frogs for the substrate which works well for growing plants. I don't think the substrate is waterlogged or ruined either since I've always kept a careful eye on the drainage layer. I can buy a fresh batch if necessary, but would adding a layer of leaf litter be sufficient granted that I remove the water feature and expand the floorspace? 

I am also looking into adding more places in the tank for the frogs to climb on and have more variety of choice. I'd appreciate any recommendations you guys have for what I can add decor/plant-wise to add some height variance to the tank.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

lots of good advice...just summarizing what I can see very quickly: Too wet and not proper supplements.

Drain and fill in the water area with hydro stones or some other drainage layer, add a bit of ABG and leaf litter on top and try to get the tank dried out. Leave it unmisted for a few days and see what happens. Mist maybe once a day for a bit. You can see algae growing over everything, its way too wet. You don't necessarily need to replace the ABG, just let it dry out and add new leaf litter.

Sounds like your supplement issue is taken care of. Repashy Cal+ will be all you need for now.


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## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

Chris S said:


> lots of good advice...just summarizing what I can see very quickly: Too wet and not proper supplements.
> 
> Drain and fill in the water area with hydro stones or some other drainage layer, add a bit of ABG and leaf litter on top and try to get the tank dried out. Leave it unmisted for a few days and see what happens. Mist maybe once a day for a bit. You can see algae growing over everything, its way too wet. You don't necessarily need to replace the ABG, just let it dry out and add new leaf litter.
> 
> Sounds like your supplement issue is taken care of. Repashy Cal+ will be all you need for now.


Thank you for the response! I will try using less water when misting. I've also added in the leaf litter which I hope will help protect the soil from becoming too damp in the future. I will work on removing the water feature in the meantime once I'm able to acquire some ABG mix and some stones for the drainage layer. I'm also removing one of the top plexiglass for some ventilation, so some of the humidity can escape out overtime.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

FrogBoy321 said:


> I understand the need to redo the current set-up of the tank, but is it necessary to remove all of the substrate and strip everything down?
> 
> yes, your substrate is absolutely rotten. You say it's good for plants to grow, but most plants grow in almost everything.. So only and always build a vivarium with the needs for frogs in mind.. Your whole experience proves paludariums are just not suited for dartfrogs ( as mentioned a 1000 times before ofc)


maybe this can help you in setting up a substrate : 70x50x65cm Vivarium Build.

basicly all you need is pond foam and gravel.. very budget, frog and plant friendly


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## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

Tijl said:


> maybe this can help you in setting up a substrate : 70x50x65cm Vivarium Build.
> 
> basicly all you need is pond foam and gravel.. very budget, frog and plant friendly


Thank you for the resource. I read through the post and some of the thread, but am a little confused how you constructed your substrate. Is the pondfoam used as the bottom layer? Also, from what I can see your total substrate depth is only a few inches. The roots on one of my plants goes all the way down to the drainage layer which is several inches in depth. Could I use a similar substrate as yours, but use more gravel for the substrate i.e, more depth? I'm also curious to know how well the substrate sustains microfauna. I'm sorry if these questions have been asked and answered before. This isn't a kind of substrate I'm familiar with, so I want to make sure I implement it correctly.

On the subject of the current substrate being ruined, what are some signs of bad substrate that needs to be replaced? I'm also curious to know what preventative measures I can take to keep my substrate from going bad. I normally mist my tank everywhere including above the substrate? Should I avoid spraying down directly above the substrate in the future?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

FrogBoy321 said:


> Thank you for the resource. I read through the post and some of the thread, but am a little confused how you constructed your substrate. Is the pondfoam used as the bottom layer? Also, from what I can see your total substrate depth is only a few inches. The roots on one of my plants goes all the way down to the drainage layer which is several inches in depth. Could I use a similar substrate as yours, but use more gravel for the substrate i.e, more depth? I'm also curious to know how well the substrate sustains microfauna. I'm sorry if these questions have been asked and answered before. This isn't a kind of substrate I'm familiar with, so I want to make sure I implement it correctly.
> 
> On the subject of the current substrate being ruined, what are some signs of bad substrate that needs to be replaced? I'm also curious to know what preventative measures I can take to keep my substrate from going bad. I normally mist my tank everywhere including above the substrate? Should I avoid spraying down directly above the substrate in the future?


It is just what you see in the topic. It acts as drainage layer. 
You can use as much as you like, but I don't see any benefit in using a lot of gravel since it heavy..

Ofc, the plants root in and on the wood, background, gravel, pondfoam,.. Plants will root everywere they can.

Your small area of substrate is absolutely saturated. It's almost completly covered in mold.. It's quite obvious.

You don't have to mist and saturate everything. Everything always needs to dry between misting.


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## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

Tijl said:


> It is just what you see in the topic. It acts as drainage layer.
> You can use as much as you like, but I don't see any benefit in using a lot of gravel since it heavy..
> 
> Ofc, the plants root in and on the wood, background, gravel, pondfoam,.. Plants will root everywere they can.
> ...


Okay, I see. Would it be appropriate to instead strip off the top layer of substrate from my current setup and replace with fresh ABG mix while keeping the drainage layer / false bottom? I'm comfortable with the current way the substrate is set up structurally, and am wary of trying new techniques which I may or may not be successful in implementing.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

FrogBoy321 said:


> Okay, I see. Would it be appropriate to instead strip off the top layer of substrate from my current setup and replace with fresh ABG mix while keeping the drainage layer / false bottom? I'm comfortable with the current way the substrate is set up structurally, and am wary of trying new techniques which I may or may not be successful in implementing.


I'm quite sure you just want to remove everything.. Your frog just died from the problems you have with your setup? I don't see why you even consider doing the same thing again aside you beeing 'comfortable with it'.


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## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

Tijl said:


> I'm quite sure you just want to remove everything.. Your frog just died from the problems you have with your setup? I don't see why you even consider doing the same thing again aside you beeing 'comfortable with it'.


I am not referring to the entire setup - only the current structure of the substrate. From what I can gather from this thread, the problems are: insufficient supplementation, lack of ventilation, bad substrate from excess saturation, no leaf litter for microclimates, and lack of space/climbing areas caused by the water feature. I am intending on redoing the setup, but I'm trying to identify the main problems which need to be fixed, so I can address each. The substrate layers themselves are an approach that I've researched and others seem to recommend. I am under the impression that the substrate has gone bad due to the excess saturation caused by high humidity (not the actual structure itself). Please let me know if I'm off base on that assumption. 

For context, I use 3-4 inches of pond stones for the drainage layer and roughly two or so inches of ABG mix with a semi-permeable barrier in between. Is this approach faulty granted that I replace the current ABG mix with fresh substrate and ensure there is proper ventillation in the tank moving forward?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

FrogBoy321 said:


> Okay, I see. Would it be appropriate to instead strip off the top layer of substrate from my current setup and replace with fresh ABG mix while keeping the drainage layer / false bottom? I'm comfortable with the current way the substrate is set up structurally, *and am wary of trying new techniques which I may or may not be successful in implementing*.


I like that you're open to improving your husbandry and seeking experienced help, and appreciate your openness up to this point, but if I may be very direct for a moment -- you were already totally unsuccessful implementing the first tank as evidenced by the outcome.

Some of us are recommending you tear down the tank and start over because a frog died in it, possibly due to an opportunistic pathogen that gained a foothold due to the frog being otherwise compromised by other factors.

It would certainly be prudent to start from scratch.

Most terrarium plants will root and thrive under the right conditions regardless of substrate depth. I use very little myself and don't use ABG at all -- and also have plants rooted into backgrounds less than 1cm thick. Substrate depth is the least of your problems.

A thin layer of gravel on top of pond foam is a simpler solution with better drainage and far less prone to failure. 

The very best advice I can give you at this point is to completely re-think and re-do your approach according to simpler, time-tested methods. You'll be happier in the long run and thank yourself for it.


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## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

Fahad said:


> I like that you're open to improving your husbandry and seeking experienced help, and appreciate your openness up to this point, but if I may be very direct for a moment -- you were already totally unsuccessful implementing the first tank as evidenced by the outcome.
> 
> Some of us are recommending you tear down the tank and start over because a frog died in it, possibly due to an opportunistic pathogen that gained a foothold due to the frog being otherwise compromised by other factors.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the advice. I see now that my first approach was improper and am hopeful to improve my husbandry before its too late. I will look into using this technique as an alternative for the substrate. To my understanding, I should just stack the pondfoam as the bottom layer and add a thin level of gravel above? So, to drain, would I just siphon off the water from the pondfoam? If you can attach any resources for brands that I can use for the gravel, that would be of great help.

Also, in the meantime, I need to rehouse my dart frog. I have a shallow plastic tub and some leftover ABG mix, as well as leaf litter. Would this be sufficient as temporary housing for a week or so until I finish redoing the setup?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

FrogBoy321 said:


> Thank you very much for the advice. I see now that my first approach was improper and am hopeful to improve my husbandry before its too late. I will look into using this technique as an alternative for the substrate. To my understanding, I should just stack the pondfoam as the bottom layer and add a thin level of gravel above? So, to drain, would I just siphon off the water from the pondfoam? If you can attach any resources for brands that I can use for the gravel, that would be of great help.
> 
> Also, in the meantime, I need to rehouse my dart frog. I have a shallow plastic tub and some leftover ABG mix, as well as leaf litter. Would this be sufficient as temporary housing for a week or so until I finish redoing the setup?


Yes, that's a good temporary approach to housing it. Simple housing will be the best for him. Feed a few flies every day (dusted with fresh supplements). Resist the urge to check in on the frog other than to feed/mist.


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## FrogBoy321 (Jan 18, 2020)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Yes, that's a good temporary approach to housing it. Simple housing will be the best for him. Feed a few flies every day (dusted with fresh supplements). Resist the urge to check in on the frog other than to feed/mist.


Great, thank you. I will follow that advice with moving the frog and rethinking/remaking the setup.


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