# Fertilizer Questions



## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

What is your fertilizer routine? With or without frogs?

Are there any specific fertilizers or compost teas that would benefit a vivarium? 

Are there any products or procedures I should avoid?



I've been reading through old threads and can't seem to find a definitive 'do' 
and 'don't' list for fertilizing a vivarium. The general consensus seems to be to stick to organic fertilizers and use them at 1/4-1/2 strength. Unfortunately, I can't find any specific fertilizer recommendations for the types of plants we keep in vivariums. 

My goal for fertilizing is to establish lush moss growth on hygrolon. I also have a couple orchids, pilea, selaginella, and cissus amazonica that I wouldn't mind speeding along. But I want moss, lots of moss.The tanks were planted for 2 months ago and most of the hygrolon is still exposed. There's progress, but I'm impatient and looking for an 'edge'. 

Thanks in advance. Until really digging in the thread I was under the impression any and all fertilizers were bad in a vivarium. After hearing some people recommending their usage I figure I'd ask you guys what you're doing.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 6, 2012)

Do you have frogs in the viv at the moment? From what I've read frogs are very susceptible to nitrate toxicity(as little 3mg/L will cause issues). Most commercial fertilizers contain high levels of nitrogen in various forms (and rightly so because nitrogen is required for healthy plant growth). I would be wary of organic fertilizers, the nitrogen source is more likely to derived from something that breaks down into ammonia to provide nitrogen that way and not necessarily clearly obvious or with an exact break down. This is where inorganic salts like potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate are your friends as you can calculate very accurately how much you're dosing. Plants require both macro and micro nutrients however a lot of the plants commonly used come from very nutrient poor conditions. 

I'd look into various aquarium fertilizers, something like Tropica's liquid fertilizers as they do a micro nutrient only and a micro + macro mix, or anything else that clearly breaks down the contents so you can work out exactly what you're dosing and whether it contains nitrogen or not. You could mix your daily ration with water and spray it on.

Moss can be a very slow grower depending on the species you're using. Ricca can be a quicker growing alternative


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks for the input. I do not currently have frogs in the vivs. 

I read high amounts of urea are also toxic to amphibians. Urea is a common ingredient in many cheap non organic fertilizers.

I was unaware organic nutrients break down into ammonia. I grow other plants with organics and have never encountered problems or an ammonia/rotten smell. Isn't ammonia toxic?

Last week i tried to spray down the vivariums with 1/4str roots organics buddha grow. It ended up ruining my spray bottle and I watered the rest onto the moss and plants. No noticeable change in growth rates or plant color.

This week I sprayed with Advanced nutrients grow a+b at 300ppm (~1/4str). 2 days later I notice much more moss growth and my spray bottle still works. My orchids have grown a bit too.

On an embarassing side note I spilled a small amount of pure advanced nutrients grow into one of my tadpole shot glasses. 4 days later and it's fine. I hope it morphs out ok.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 6, 2012)

For a study on nitrate toxicity in herps google: Nitrogen Pollution: An Assessment of Its Threat to Amphibian Survival.

Just to clear a few things up
Ammonia = NH3
Ammonium = NH4
Urea = CH4N2O
Nitrate = NO3

Urea is created by combining 2 ammonia molecules with a co2 molecule during the urea cycle. 
If you're not already familiar I'd check out how the nitrogen cycle works
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_cycle
Pure ammonia stinks but at the levels found in fertilizer there would be no noticeable smell

Looking at the 2 products you've listed:
The Organic Buddah; derived from bat guano and worm castings. So the nitrogen source will be ammonia/urea based. It gives the following NPK break down 2-0.25-2 this means the product contains 2ppm nitrogen, 0.25ppm phosphate and 2 ppm potassium. Overall this is a very weak fertilizer as those concentrations very low. Assuming the N source is urea this product contains just over 4ppm urea. I'd have no issues dumping a whole bottle in my planted aquarium lol. No mention of micro nutrients.

Advanced Nutrients Grow; No ingredients listed, some pretty BS pseudoscience stuff on there webpage..... No breakdown.... I wouldn't put it anywhere near fish/amphibians, not without knowing what's in it. I suspect it's a pretty potent all in one fertilizer with both macro and micro nutrients.

The reason I suggested aquarium fertilizers is that if they do use nitrogen, then it's going to be derived from something fish safe. That means no urea or ammonia.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

This is really good info on the nitrogen cycle. Am I safe to assume if a fertilizer is fish safe it is therefore frog safe? 

The reason I decided on these two nutrients is I had them laying around my place. I just happened to have an 'organic' and non-organic nutrient to compare.

Even with the boost in growth after applying the advanced nutrients grow a+b I'm not going to apply again. My tanks may have frogs in them the next month.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 6, 2012)

FrogTim said:


> This is really good info on the nitrogen cycle. Am I safe to assume if a fertilizer is fish safe it is therefore frog safe?


Not necessarily, the nitrogen source should be safe but you still need to take care that you don't apply too much nitrogen. If you know how much of what's in it you can calculate how much dilution is required (if any) before misting it on. 
A useful calculator: http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm

A couple of thoughts, 
-If there's no frogs in the viv you could apply any fertiliser you like within reason. 
-After fertilising and growing out the plants you could flood and drain the tank a few times checking the nitrate content of the waste water before adding the frogs. That should wash any excess fertiliser off.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you want a lot of moss then you really want a lot of light. Mosses can grow in lower light levels but they really want lots of light.

I should also note that the frogs aren't from areas with large areas of moss, they really should have leaf litter... 

some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Moss in the ground is for YOU, and it comes at the expense of your frogs, through the loss of good hunting grounds and microfauna production. 
Lots and lots of leaf litter may not be your idea of beauty, but it's what your frogs want. Once you see what it does for you, you'll learn to love your leaf litter soon enough.

I plant my mosses on my background, cork bark, and ghost wood, getting it up off the floor. This leaves more space for better hunting grounds.

Build your viv for your frogs, and they will reward you for it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh, and I've started a lot of vivs, with a lot of great plant growth, including lots of delicate plants. I have never once included fertilizer of any kind. To each their own, but my own says, "no way, no how" as far as fertilizers in a frog viv are concerned.

I defer to my frogs, who claim to be expert fertilizer manufacturers and applicators. So far, I guess I have to believe them!

Seriously though, be careful of any ferts you find at a hydroponics shop. There are absolutely no controls over the hydroponics industry, as far as ferts go. They don't have to tell you what is in that bottle. Some companies, like the mentioned Advanced Nutrients, does not ever tell you what is in that bottle. Oh, there is an ingredients label, but they may only tell you the base ingredient, with everything else simply unlisted. They are afraid not only that other companies will steal their formula, but also that if the customers know whats in it, they could replace that bottle with something 10 times cheaper. The hydroponics industry is also all too willing to use things that are not to be used on food crops, even banned substances, like certain growth hormone regulators. They stick them in to control stretch, to start flowering earlier, and who knows what else. They could be putting nuclear waste in a bottle, and you wouldn't know it until your Azureus began glowing a nice healthy shade of green!
Again, to each their own, but be careful that you really know what's in a bottle from an uncontrolled industry. I would definitely go as natural as possible. 
May I suggest you stick to something with the OMRI label on it. OMRI basically certifies, independently, that a product is truly organic. This allows companies to keep their organic formula a secret, while assuring the end user that it's truly organic and safe...and that your frogs won't begin developing super powers. 
It's not organic unless it's OMRI organic.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks for the tips, input and experience everyone. 

I agree the moss is for me, but it's on a substantial amount of hygrolon I used to cover the great stuff background and hardscape, not so much the floor (which is covered in leaf litter). I really dislike the look of the exposed hygrolon and want it covered as much as possible. 

I'd love to add frogs, but the tanks were looking pretty bare when first planted. I used a lot of cuttings and dusk moss mix. I also added wild collected mood moss, shag moss and christmas moss. It's been 2 months since planting and only in the last week has the moss finally shown significant growth.

After reading the above suggestions I'm going to steer clear of fertilizers for now since I plan on housing frogs in the near future. Having to regularly drain tanks to prevent fertilizer build up isn't appealing to me. OMRI listed products sound interesting but I'll also need a spray bottle that can handle them.


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## OllieNZ (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm not sure why I didn't think of this earlier.....
There's a technique used by aquascapers (and others) to ensure the rapid spread of moss. Blend it with water and a dollop of natural yogurt and then paint it on.
The following link gives a how to.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/georges-tmc-signature.25103/page-12#post-263668


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## Grimsrude (Apr 6, 2017)

FrogTim said:


> Thanks for the tips, input and experience everyone.
> 
> I agree the moss is for me, but it's on a substantial amount of hygrolon I used to cover the great stuff background and hardscape, not so much the floor (which is covered in leaf litter). I really dislike the look of the exposed hygrolon and want it covered as much as possible.
> 
> ...


As a slightly off topic suggestion for the future, you can actually get away pretty well with starting your plants outside the viv and using ferts and soil-less medium, really jumpstart the plants. This absolutely won't work for mosses though, as, in my experience, mosses hate ferts of any kind. I've found they grow best/fastest in bright, high PAR light and RO/low tds water. Too high of a tds (nutrients, fert, or just tap minerals) will quickly kill a moss or at least stunt it growth. 

I've had a lot of success starting a plant cutting in rockwool in a hydroponic solution, removing the rockwool and thoroughly cleaning/rinsing the roots/plant once it's reached a good size, and planting it in moist ABG mix. As a note, I rinse and soak the plant until it "leaches" out less than 100 ppm into a small glass of water to ensure there isn't a huge amount of fert coating the plant. 

now, none of this will help get vining plants to climb your viv background or groundcover plants to spread, Unfortunately, unless you find some neat ways to flush your substrate before putting any animal in you're going to end up just having to wait the 4-6 months before it looks full like everyone's been doing for years.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

I've previously started cuttings in root plugs using rooting gel and seedling domes. It works great for getting cuttings rooted but for moss, bromeliads and orchids I don't think it'd be successful. Honestly, I think it's my excessive use of hygrolon, I've had much better success growing moss on tree fern panel.


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## KMSReptiles (Jan 17, 2009)

what about organic rock dust azomite?


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

My understanding is azomite provides trace minerals but has a 0 NPK value. It is more of an amendment than 'nutrient'. I also believe azomite needs a bioactive soil system to break down and be used by plants. That's great for planted things but my primary goal is to get moss and epiphytes to grow. I don't think azomite would help if sprayed onto hygrolon. 

But, I do believe that azomite would be frog safe if used in small amounts. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.


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## Grimsrude (Apr 6, 2017)

FrogTim said:


> I've previously started cuttings in root plugs using rooting gel and seedling domes. It works great for getting cuttings rooted but for moss, bromeliads and orchids I don't think it'd be successful. Honestly, I think it's my excessive use of hygrolon, I've had much better success growing moss on tree fern panel.


Ah, yeah, haven't had the chance to try hygrolon (on similar "web" surfaces) yet, might be something I snag from my next glassboxtropicals order. I think the honest key here is maintaining moisture levels, and the fact of the matter is, for some vivs, that's not doable without practically waterlogging the whole tank first.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

It's OK I can't say it doesn't grow moss. But yea, I feel like it takes a bit more water and would be better suited for a drip wall or similar. I'm hoping when it grows in the moss will help it hold more water.


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## backafter20 (Mar 11, 2011)

How about fish-poo water for fertilizing plants that are not in with frogs? I built an enclosed rack for propagating cuttings of various vivarium plants, and would like to encourage growth. I used to keep minnows to feed a young pair of rhino rat snakes, which have since moved on to feed on mice. I was always amazed at how quickly just a couple of minnows could nastify a 2.5 gallon aquarium, and I had to do frequent water changes, as I had no filter running. I eventually started using this fish-water to water my houseplants, and figured maybe it would be ok to use on vivarium plants, but wonder if there could be something in it that I might not want to pass on to frogs? I don't intend to use this in an occupied vivarium, just to feed cuttings being grown outside of frog enclosures. Any potential issues I should be concerned about? I haven't done this yet. I'd have to buy a goldfish or two as a tiny fertilizer factory.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Fish could be carrying pathogens that pose a threat to your frogs. There's a thread somewhere on here about someone using a used filter from a fish tank to help seed their viv with beneficial bacteria. That's a good thread explaining why that wasn't such a good idea as it initially was presented. I'll try to find it, but with the search function wonky, I can't guarantee it.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I found it using a bit of a workaround method. Anyway, it was in a thread about water features. Here:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/288609-whats-water-features-2.html


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

Also, please take into account that goldfish should get at least a foot long, they are not tiny fish. And that no fish should be kept in a bowl or other mini unfiltered tank. 

There's also not going to be much of a benefit to fish poo vs other organic fertilizers. It's just processed fish food. You may as well make fish food tea and pour that around on the plants.


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## backafter20 (Mar 11, 2011)

Appreciate the comments!


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## Tay0001 (Jun 14, 2017)

If you're after lots of moss cover you might be best propagating it in a second container and transplanting it back. You can try the trick of sticking some in a blender with water, as someone else mentioned, and then paint/spread it on an appropriate substrate.

Alternatively you could take bits from a clump you have in your tank and spread the pieces around the area you want covered. The moss will continue growing and fill up the gaps again. You should get coverage more quickly than allowing the one clump to spread on its own.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

It's still going to be a while before frogs go in my viv. For the first time, I've seen a real need for some fertilizer in my viv.
I went to my friends at SWFG for advice. At Jason Elam's suggestion I am using a fish emulsion at about 1/8 strength. He recommended I fertilize twice, at 2 week intervals, then skip to once a month.
It's been about 9 days since the first application, and it looks good. I'm definitely seeing positive results.
This is my first experience fertilizing a viv.
May I suggest mixing it outside of the house? That is some nasty smelling brown goo! Fortunately, once diluted and sprayed in, there's really no noticeable smell.


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