# New Frogs Looking Sad - Any Ideas?



## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

I just got a pair of galactonotus from a frog show last Saturday (so about a week ago). I placed them in quarantine containers made out of 19qt sweater boxes with a layered substrate of gravel and moss. When I first put them in there they were hopping around and hanging out on the sides. A few days ago I discovered a very small amount of mold in the tank, so I completely changed the whole thing, threw out the moss and leaf litter, etc. I have never seen them eat, but the fruit flies keep disappearing, so I am assuming they are eating. Temp is around 70, humidity around 80%.

For the past few days or so, since I cleaned the tank, they have been very lethargic and just stay under the moss in the corner. Does this sound ok? Is it normal? Or should I be worried? Any ideas?

Thanks!


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## steelheader (Oct 25, 2008)

Give them time to settle in. A little mold won't hurt the frogs at all. It will come and go. Frequently changing everything in the container will stress them out though. Just let everything settle in and they will be fine. I hope that helps


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I know some of the users on this forum are quite fond of their mold. But their frogs do just fine. Even in your vivariums you're going to get mold cycles. They're not anything to worry about (unless perhaps the mold starts taking over the entire viv... then I might start to worry... but maybe I'd be wrong in that assumption).

Like steelheader said, if you keep changing everything everytime you see a little mold you're going to stress out your frogs. Just let everything get settled, it takes its own natural course. You'll be fine if you just chill a little bit


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

I would be concerned if they are lethargic for more then 1 or 2 days, I think your temps are probably too low, especially if there is a night time drop. Most quarantine containers are just too small and light duty to hold much heat during the night (unlike a 10 gallon tank that probably has an inch or two of water and 4 times the substrate and plants and a glass lid to help keep things toasty all night long). If they eat and maintain weight for you then you should be fine, but if they stay lethargic and begin to get thin I would get the temps up another 5-8 degrees. And I wouldn't worry about the mold. It's in every breath you take and on every surface you touch. It's ubiquitous in nearly every environment (without it this world would be a mess!), so thats a battle you will never win 

Good luck!


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## colb (Mar 13, 2008)

I agree about the mold not being an issue to worry about. As others have stated, a tank will go through cycles. My spirally piece of wood especially likes to get lots of mold for a while, and then nothing for a while - and this repeats itself. My frogs don't seem to mind at all. 

I have also observed that moving/changing things around can cause your frogs more stress than they will already have settling into an new home.

If you're anything like me, you'll get more stressed out than your frogs likely are.


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks, JL-Exotics!

I moved them to a warmer room yesterday and today they are out and about and eating. Great idea!

And thanks for the reassurances about the mold- I had no idea they'd be fine with it.


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## bmasar (Dec 13, 2007)

One thing I haven't noticed anyone mention is frog poo. You may not see your frogs eating, but if you find the poo, well you know the rest. Also, I've had frogs take more than a week to get used to a new environment, so I wouldn't worry about that yet.


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

Two out of three died this morning.

Yes, they were still excreting, that's the one of the ways I knew they were eating. I still don't think they were eating as much as they should have because they flies weren't disappearing very quickly, but there was still poo. The little one may have died last night, I couldn't see him very well, but the larger one was still breathing as of yesterday. And they were both moving around a little bit yesterday, over to the feeding dish and hanging out on the walls, so I was pretty surprised this morning.

Luckily, the third one seems to be doing much better. He was out and about all day yesterday and ate all the food I gave him yesterday. He hasn't eaten today's food yet, but he was out this morning and it usually takes him a little while to eat, so I'm not worried.

I'm very sad


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

sorry to hear about that.

Were they WC or CB ?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Sorry for your loss.

I think the mentioning of frog "poo" is getting fecal samples done. If you get fecal samples you can determine whether or not a parasite is causing the problem.


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

Captive bred.

I did not get fecals done.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

georgiekittie said:


> Captive bred.
> 
> I did not get fecals done.


Well, you certainly should call the breeder and touch base. Hopefully the seller and the breeder are one and the same................


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

I did talk to the breeder and he is willing to replace the frogs.

Now, for the remaining frog... he has been in quarantine for two weeks. He's about 3/4", has good coloring, and is sometimes out and about. However, he's still not eating well. Is it time to transfer him to the terrarium (it's a 20gal)? Would he be more comfortable in there than in his quarantine tank, or is it too big for him?


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## frogsanddogs (Jun 21, 2008)

If I were you I would get fecals done on him to be sure that there isn't a parasite that killed his tankmates and that he is also infected with before putting him into and potentially infecting your new viv. You can send out to someone like Dr Frye (info posted in sticky on this board including how to collect a sample)- you could overnight today and have results by tomorrow. (He is not in the office Wed so I would send today if you want to know before then)- that way in the event he has something you can start treating him while he is still in quarantine and without infecting your new viv which would require a tear down to clean if he does end up exposing it to something.
In the scheme of the cost of the frogs, the cost and time you have put into your viv, it doesn't cost very much for a fecal and it also will give you some peace of mind as well as help get the frog treatment if he is infected with something. 
While there are obviously many other things that can contribute to the death of a frog especially when someone is new to husbandry details and such, I think this is an easy start to getting a lot of answers and helping you to know whether there may be a larger issue at play here.
Also if you plan to get replacements for the 2 dead frogs a fecal is a good idea as unless both groups of frogs were raised in the same viv, you could risk infecting the replacements if they are clean and the first frogs were not. If it were me, I would probably quickly send out the fecal so that I could know about potential illnesses before the breeder sends the replacement frogs so if there is an issue in that regard, you can speak with him about how best to proceed. 
I hope that is helpful information- good luck in getting this all figured out and I am sorry for your loss of the first two. I know that is really a bummer. Good luck to you!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

How big were the frogs?

Use a coin for reference.....dime, quarter, 1/2 dollar.....


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

All three were about the size of a nickel. Of the two I just lost one was bigger than the other- not too much longer, just a lot fatter (although the "skinny" one didn't look unhealthily skinny). The bigger one may have been bigger than a nickel, it is hard to tell, as I no longer have him.

And he is eating about ten flies every two days. But my husband thinks he looks a little bigger since we got him, he is definitely not smaller, and his color and skin look good. I am feeding wingless melanogaster. I dust them every few days, but he never eats them fast enough for it to have any effect- except for the first day I fed him. He ate well the first day.

P.S. I've read the sticky on how to collect fecals.... now how do I go about finding someone to do them. I know you mentioned Dr Frye.... how do I find him? How do I find out if there's anyone closer?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Update your profile to include a location....makes things easier.

Dr Frye has a profile on here....look under members...DR Frye, I think.

Good luck and keep us posted on any new developments with that last frog.


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

I lost the last one today. I woke up this morning and he was dead. Nothing had really changed. He was still coming out some and his color was good. Temps and humidity normal. He never did eat well, but he definitely didn't lose weight. The breeder/seller suggested that maybe the first ones died of asphyxiation so I poked some holes in the lid of this one, but it didn't help. I'm sad.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

that sucks, but sometimes we all lose an animal for different resaons.

The important thing to come out of this is to make sure you are not doing anything really wrong on your end..and to get you some more frogs that thrive.

Please take several minutes to respond and list as much info as you can about the tank and how it was maintained.

1.Size and type of enclosure
2.Temp of room and temp of tank
3. Humidity and what type of top / lid - describe.
4.Total number and species of animals in the enclosure
5.Location of the frog enclosure in your house.
6.Does anyone smoke...any cleansers, fumes, bug bombs...adjoining walls with neighbors.
7.Did you handle the frogs at all? 
8.Food, frequency of feeding, amount, supliments, calcium
9.Water type used. Tap, spring, RO ect

That should be a good start.....


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

I actually typed up a whole post last night with all of this information to post on the health & disease forum but my husband deleted it, so now I'll put it here. (Do you think it would be helpful to also post it there? Would I get more people looking at it? Just a link to this post, or copy and paste all of my care info?) Any suggestions you have on changes I can make I would greatly appreciate.

1.Size and type of enclosure
20qt plastic sterilite container. I had two quarantine containers, one for the pair of galacts and one for the third frog, which was an azureus. It was a layered substrate of gravel and moss as well as some hides and leaf litter. There was no water dish.

2.Temp of room and temp of tank
I kept my thermostat set at about 73ish (it's not digital so it's hard to tell), so that would be the temperature of the room. I had them in the kitchen at first, which has a south facing window, so it would get to about 76 or 78 during the day, then I moved them to the spare bedroom which does not get sunlight, so it would have been the 73ish. Then I moved them back to the kitchen. They never had direct sunlight on the tank. Temperatures in the tank never went below 69 or above 80 (my gauge has a min/max feature). They tended to stay around 74-76 during the day while the frogs were in the kitchen- which was most of the time.

3. Humidity and what type of top / lid - describe.
Humidity never went below 80% and was often in the 90's. The enclosure was one of those plastic storage containers, so it just had the lid that came with it. After I lost the galacts the breeder suggested that they may have died of asphyxiation since there was no ventilation (I was told they wouldn't need it) so I made some holes in the lid of the azureus container about a week ago.

4.Total number and species of animals in the enclosure
Two 75% orange galacts in the first container and one azureus in the second container.

5.Location of the frog enclosure in your house.
See above. 

6.Does anyone smoke...any cleansers, fumes, bug bombs...adjoining walls with neighbors.
I do have adjoining walls with neighbors, but the apartment next to me has been vacant for months. The people above me moved out a couple of weeks ago, shortly after I got the frogs. For the past two days or so (after the galacts died, but while the azureus was still alive) maintenance has been cleaning up their place for the next tennants, including painting...I don't know if we get any of their air, though. Our heating and air conditioning are separate. And I can't smell the paint, or any cleansers. We did have a guest staying with us that smoked, but he was only allowed to do it outside with the door closed. And, finally, I mopped the kitchen floor a few days ago (again, galacts had died, but I still had the azureus) but I moved the azureus to the spare bedroom before I did it, and opened both kitchen windows and let it air out before I moved him back to the kitchen. Also, I mopped the floor with a very diluted water/pine sol solution.

7.Did you handle the frogs at all?
Only the time when I panicked and cleaned their tank about a week after I got them. I had to touch one of the galacts with my hand in order to get him into his temporary container (the ones I bought them in), but I didn't touch either of the others.

8.Food, frequency of feeding, amount, supliments, calcium
I fed melanogaster that I got from Ed's fly meat. I've been culturing them with their prepared media. (And I now have more flies than I know what to do with.) At first I fed them every day in the morning. The first morning the azureus at all his flies (I watched him do it, it was so cool) and the galacts had eaten all of theirs within a couple of hours. Probably 10 flies in the azureus enclosure and 15-20 for the two galacts. When I put the same amount in the next day they didn't eat them all, so I waited another day to feed them. So for the first week or so, they all ate about 10 flies apiece every other day. After I had my mold panic attack nobody ate for a day or two. Then they started eating again, just a few flies per day. The galacts never really got their appetite back. The azureus did start eating again, but still only 10 flies or so every other day. I did supplement the flies a couple of times a week with RepCal calcium and herptivite. However, the frogs ate so slowly most if it was gone by the time they got to the flies. I opened them when I got the frogs, so they have been open less than a month and are not past their expiration date. They are stored in separate containers and only mixed right before feeding.

9.Water type used. Tap, spring, RO ect
Bottled spring water.

10. Suggestions made by my breeder:
_Poisoning_: I cleaned my containers with a 10% bleach solution, which I then rinsed thoroughly for several minutes and allowed to air dry. I got this method from a dart frog care book. He was concerned that the frogs may have been poisoned from residual bleach and suggested an alternative of tap water and rubbing alcohol. I will do that in the future. (It always made me nervous cleaning with bleach anyway.)
_Asphyxiation_: Seemed like a possibility at the time, but since I added ventilation to the azureus tank and he still died, it seems less likely. Also, I've heard of several other people using the sweater box quarantine method with no problems.
Also, he suggested that next time I put the frogs directly into the terrarium because it is a "better" enclosure than the sweater boxes. I was under the impression that quarantining was better. I'm not sure how I feel about that now- since I somehow managed to kill all three frogs while they were in quarantine. Maybe they would have been able to survive better in the terrarium. But if I put them in their and they still died, then I'd be tearing my hair out and breaking down the whole thing right now, so I don't know. What do you think?

Hope that helps! Thanks for any advice you can give me, let me know if you need any more information.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Well done....thanks for posting such a detailed response. 

I actually typed up a whole post last night with all of this information to post on the health & disease forum but my husband deleted it, so now I'll put it here. (Do you think it would be helpful to also post it there? Would I get more people looking at it? Just a link to this post, or copy and paste all of my care info?) Any suggestions you have on changes I can make I would greatly appreciate.

This is the correct area of the forum, I believe. I think a lot of people are looking at it....sometimes it takes a while before the responses start to roll in...and it this case, more info was needed. More responses will come...

1.Size and type of enclosure
20qt plastic sterilite container. I had two quarantine containers, one for the pair of galacts and one for the third frog, which was an azureus. It was a layered substrate of gravel and moss as well as some hides and leaf litter. There was no water dish.

Brand new sterilite or were they used ?....if so....what used to be in them?

2.Temp of room and temp of tank
I kept my thermostat set at about 73ish (it's not digital so it's hard to tell), so that would be the temperature of the room. I had them in the kitchen at first, which has a south facing window, so it would get to about 76 or 78 during the day, then I moved them to the spare bedroom which does not get sunlight, so it would have been the 73ish. Then I moved them back to the kitchen. They never had direct sunlight on the tank. Temperatures in the tank never went below 69 or above 80 (my gauge has a min/max feature). They tended to stay around 74-76 during the day while the frogs were in the kitchen- which was most of the time.

Temps seem ok here...I would worry about Kitchen fumes of any kind...more on this in your other response.

3. Humidity and what type of top / lid - describe.
Humidity never went below 80% and was often in the 90's. The enclosure was one of those plastic storage containers, so it just had the lid that came with it. After I lost the galacts the breeder suggested that they may have died of asphyxiation since there was no ventilation (I was told they wouldn't need it) so I made some holes in the lid of the azureus container about a week ago.

No air problem. I use storage totes for Q tanks, Temps and even grow outs. FF can escape if they crawl up and over the inside lip, plus the lid is coming off completely for feedings ect at least every other day..so...no...I don't think there was a lack of air.

4.Total number and species of animals in the enclosure
Two 75% orange galacts in the first container and one azureus in the second container.

5.Location of the frog enclosure in your house.
See above. 

6.Does anyone smoke...any cleansers, fumes, bug bombs...adjoining walls with neighbors.
I do have adjoining walls with neighbors, but the apartment next to me has been vacant for months. The people above me moved out a couple of weeks ago, shortly after I got the frogs. For the past two days or so (after the galacts died, but while the azureus was still alive) maintenance has been cleaning up their place for the next tennants, including painting...I don't know if we get any of their air, though. Our heating and air conditioning are separate. And I can't smell the paint, or any cleansers. We did have a guest staying with us that smoked, but he was only allowed to do it outside with the door closed. And, finally, I mopped the kitchen floor a few days ago (again, galacts had died, but I still had the azureus) but I moved the azureus to the spare bedroom before I did it, and opened both kitchen windows and let it air out before I moved him back to the kitchen. Also, I mopped the floor with a very diluted water/pine sol solution.

This one troubles me the most. The maintenance, cleaning and painting occurring next door, and the kitchen cleansers and possible fumes.....


7.Did you handle the frogs at all?
Only the time when I panicked and cleaned their tank about a week after I got them. I had to touch one of the galacts with my hand in order to get him into his temporary container (the ones I bought them in), but I didn't touch either of the others.

8.Food, frequency of feeding, amount, supliments, calcium
I fed melanogaster that I got from Ed's fly meat. I've been culturing them with their prepared media. (And I now have more flies than I know what to do with.) At first I fed them every day in the morning. The first morning the azureus at all his flies (I watched him do it, it was so cool) and the galacts had eaten all of theirs within a couple of hours. Probably 10 flies in the azureus enclosure and 15-20 for the two galacts. When I put the same amount in the next day they didn't eat them all, so I waited another day to feed them. So for the first week or so, they all ate about 10 flies apiece every other day. After I had my mold panic attack nobody ate for a day or two. Then they started eating again, just a few flies per day. The galacts never really got their appetite back. The azureus did start eating again, but still only 10 flies or so every other day. I did supplement the flies a couple of times a week with RepCal calcium and herptivite. However, the frogs ate so slowly most if it was gone by the time they got to the flies. I opened them when I got the frogs, so they have been open less than a month and are not past their expiration date. They are stored in separate containers and only mixed right before feeding.

Sounds like poor feeding from the start, which is problematic. Were they good feeders at one point for you, or could you say they were "not feeing well" for you at all ?

9.Water type used. Tap, spring, RO ect
Bottled spring water.

No problem.

10. Suggestions made by my breeder:
_Poisoning_: I cleaned my containers with a 10% bleach solution, which I then rinsed thoroughly for several minutes and allowed to air dry. I got this method from a dart frog care book. He was concerned that the frogs may have been poisoned from residual bleach and suggested an alternative of tap water and rubbing alcohol. I will do that in the future. (It always made me nervous cleaning with bleach anyway.)

Why did you feel the need to clean the sterilite with bleach prior to putting the frogs in it? Had there been something stored in there that warrented cleaning?

_Asphyxiation_: Seemed like a possibility at the time, but since I added ventilation to the azureus tank and he still died, it seems less likely. Also, I've heard of several other people using the sweater box quarantine method with no problems.

hmmm.....This would not be a cause from what I see....

Also, he suggested that next time I put the frogs directly into the terrarium because it is a "better" enclosure than the sweater boxes. I was under the impression that quarantining was better. I'm not sure how I feel about that now- since I somehow managed to kill all three frogs while they were in quarantine. Maybe they would have been able to survive better in the terrarium. 

This reasoning is actually a debated topic in several animal hubandry schools of thought. There have been people who do attribute aspects of the Q-tine - stress mainly, to the death of thier frogs. I have used both methods...and there are equal times where I introduce my newly acquired animals directly into a planted viv as opposed to any sort of Q-tine.

Hope that helps! Thanks for any advice you can give me, let me know if you need any more information.


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks for your responses!

The sterilite containers were brand new. I cleaned them prior because it just seemed like a good idea... I didn't know what had been in the factory that made them or in the store, and my frog book recommended cleaning anything I put near the frogs.

They were never really good feeders. Even before I panicked and cleaned for mold. The azureus ate well the first day... and that was the only really good feeding I had out of any of them.

As for the kitchen fumes, the only thing that I used was the pine sol floor and I tried to air it out thoroughly before returning to the frog to the kitchen. What can I do about that in the future? Or what about the fumes from upstairs? Next time I do this we'll be in a new apartment (we're moving soon) and I am hoping to keep them in the spare bedroom this time, so it won't be a big a concern.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I don't know about the Sterlites as other people seem to have success with them, but it might be possible that they could have leeched something into the environment. Personally for quarantine, I use the 190oz food containers, which work very well. They seal very well, so you don't have escaping flies all that much, so you can easily monitor if they're eating or not. They also keep humidity up. Unless you really didn't open then up for many days, I don't think that asphyxiation would be a possibility. Frogs are tiny and cold-blooded and don't use up much oxygen. A 190oz container would be fine for a frog at least for a couple days, if not longer. And since you'd be feeding them regularly (and potentially have a plant in there), I don't think that there is any chance of asphyxiation.

I set my quarantine containers up with a couple inches of sphagnum moss, an inch or so of leaf litter, and a cutting of Pothos.

What kind of moss were you using? Sphagnum, outdoor, store bought, ...?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If the containers were air dried and you didn't smell any bleach then there wasn't any bleach residue to cause concern. 


Ed


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## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

_1.Size and type of enclosure
20qt plastic sterilite container. I had two quarantine containers, one for the pair of galacts and one for the third frog, which was an azureus. It was a layered substrate of gravel and moss as well as some hides and leaf litter. There was no water dish._

Sounds ok to me. If you want to get fecals done next time (trust me, getting fecals done is a very very useful thing - I learned this the hard way - now all my new reptiles and amphibians get their fecals done), you might want to use simply a damp paper towel instead of gravel.

_2.Temp of room and temp of tank
I kept my thermostat set at about 73ish (it's not digital so it's hard to tell), so that would be the temperature of the room. I had them in the kitchen at first, which has a south facing window, so it would get to about 76 or 78 during the day, then I moved them to the spare bedroom which does not get sunlight, so it would have been the 73ish. Then I moved them back to the kitchen. They never had direct sunlight on the tank. Temperatures in the tank never went below 69 or above 80 (my gauge has a min/max feature). They tended to stay around 74-76 during the day while the frogs were in the kitchen- which was most of the time._

You had galacts eight days before they died, didn't you? Seems to me like they got moved around a lot... this probably stressed them out a lot.
IMO 73 is a little low... 77 or 78 during the day would be perfect.

_3. Humidity and what type of top / lid - describe.
Humidity never went below 80% and was often in the 90's. The enclosure was one of those plastic storage containers, so it just had the lid that came with it. After I lost the galacts the breeder suggested that they may have died of asphyxiation since there was no ventilation (I was told they wouldn't need it) so I made some holes in the lid of the azureus container about a week ago._

Asphyxiation? I don't believe so... I quarantine mine in plastic food containers, completely closed, and the frogs only get fresh air when I feed them - once a day - which should be enough.

_4.Total number and species of animals in the enclosure
Two 75% orange galacts in the first container and one azureus in the second container._

Is ok.

_5.Location of the frog enclosure in your house.
See above. _

As I said... too much moving around will stress a frog out.

_6.Does anyone smoke...any cleansers, fumes, bug bombs...adjoining walls with neighbors.
I do have adjoining walls with neighbors, but the apartment next to me has been vacant for months. The people above me moved out a couple of weeks ago, shortly after I got the frogs. For the past two days or so (after the galacts died, but while the azureus was still alive) maintenance has been cleaning up their place for the next tennants, including painting...I don't know if we get any of their air, though. Our heating and air conditioning are separate. And I can't smell the paint, or any cleansers. We did have a guest staying with us that smoked, but he was only allowed to do it outside with the door closed. And, finally, I mopped the kitchen floor a few days ago (again, galacts had died, but I still had the azureus) but I moved the azureus to the spare bedroom before I did it, and opened both kitchen windows and let it air out before I moved him back to the kitchen. Also, I mopped the floor with a very diluted water/pine sol solution._

In light of that the galacts died before all this happened - it is possible, but I don't really believe so. You mentioned that the tinc wasn't eating well before either...

_7.Did you handle the frogs at all?
Only the time when I panicked and cleaned their tank about a week after I got them. I had to touch one of the galacts with my hand in order to get him into his temporary container (the ones I bought them in), but I didn't touch either of the others._

For me, carrying the enclosure around is considered "handling".
Again, stress. If you can help it, don't touch a frog, ever. And if you absolutely have to, please don't touch them with your bare hand. Not only does it stress them out, it's also not healthy for them (more precisely, their skin).

_8.Food, frequency of feeding, amount, supliments, calcium
I fed melanogaster that I got from Ed's fly meat. I've been culturing them with their prepared media. (And I now have more flies than I know what to do with.) At first I fed them every day in the morning. The first morning the azureus at all his flies (I watched him do it, it was so cool) and the galacts had eaten all of theirs within a couple of hours. Probably 10 flies in the azureus enclosure and 15-20 for the two galacts. When I put the same amount in the next day they didn't eat them all, so I waited another day to feed them. So for the first week or so, they all ate about 10 flies apiece every other day. After I had my mold panic attack nobody ate for a day or two. Then they started eating again, just a few flies per day. The galacts never really got their appetite back. The azureus did start eating again, but still only 10 flies or so every other day. I did supplement the flies a couple of times a week with RepCal calcium and herptivite. However, the frogs ate so slowly most if it was gone by the time they got to the flies. I opened them when I got the frogs, so they have been open less than a month and are not past their expiration date. They are stored in separate containers and only mixed right before feeding._

Hm... doesn't sound like they were eating enough... this could again be contributed to stress.
However, I believe you mentioned at least one of the frogs that died was still pretty "fat", right? In that case I don't think this was the cause of death (not saying it might not have contributed).

_9.Water type used. Tap, spring, RO ect
Bottled spring water._

Ok.

_10. Suggestions made by my breeder:
Poisoning: I cleaned my containers with a 10% bleach solution, which I then rinsed thoroughly for several minutes and allowed to air dry. I got this method from a dart frog care book. He was concerned that the frogs may have been poisoned from residual bleach and suggested an alternative of tap water and rubbing alcohol. I will do that in the future. (It always made me nervous cleaning with bleach anyway.)_

Is possible, though seems unlikely to me. However, did you rinse the plastic containers with hot water? I do know from dwarf shrimp keeping that if rinsed with hot water plastic (aquarium gravel that is coated with plastic, for example) might emit plasticizer to the water, which has an unfortunate tendency to kill all dwarf shrimp - now, dwarf shrimp are probably a lot more sensitive than frogs (often driving dwarf shrimp keepers to desperation), but, in light of that a certain amount of plasticizer in food containers can be quite harmful to a human...

_Asphyxiation: Seemed like a possibility at the time, but since I added ventilation to the azureus tank and he still died, it seems less likely. Also, I've heard of several other people using the sweater box quarantine method with no problems._

No, seems _very_ unlikely to me, never had any problems with the completely closed quarantine containers before. 

_Also, he suggested that next time I put the frogs directly into the terrarium because it is a "better" enclosure than the sweater boxes. I was under the impression that quarantining was better. I'm not sure how I feel about that now- since I somehow managed to kill all three frogs while they were in quarantine. Maybe they would have been able to survive better in the terrarium. But if I put them in their and they still died, then I'd be tearing my hair out and breaking down the whole thing right now, so I don't know. What do you think?_

IMO it's pretty much BS (sorry for saying this so bluntly, but it had to be said). Of course it's a _better_ enclosure for the frogs (much nicer and less stressful), but quarantining is a _good_ idea. Getting fecals done for the frogs should be _standard_. You don't want to introduce new frogs into the viv and have them be sick. Then you'll have to tear the whole viv apart, disinfect and do everything anew. What fun. Not. And the frogs will still have to go into quarantine (and be treated), or it might already be too late for them.
True, the frogs _might_ not have died if you'd put them in their final enclosure right away, if the cause is indeed stress, but then again, if it wasn't stress, they might and probably would have still died.
Quarantining is a good idea, don't worry.

_Hope that helps! Thanks for any advice you can give me, let me know if you need any more information_

At this point, I'm thinking the most probable causes are either stress from too much handling - carrying the containers around too much, cleaning containers, touching frog, etc (seems very likely to me, the tinc could have lasted longer because tincs are much less shy than galacts), or some kind of sickness or parasite (parasites can do a real number on a frog when he's already stressed from moving to a new owner).
Lethargy... could be a sign of a sickness or parasites... could also be stress.

Now, you'll never be completely sure what the frogs died of (and poisoning is still a possibility), but I thought this might help anyway.


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies! I did finally get results for fecals done on the azureus and they came back clean.

Thanks for all the advice, it's really helped. My current opinion is also that they died from stress, most particularly from my mold panic. (Oops ) But the plastic thing also sounds interesting. Not only do I not remember what temperature I rinsed the containers in (it very may well have been hot), the gravel in the bottom of the containers was aquarium gravel. I'll definitely be careful to watch that next time.


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

For anyone who is interested I received replacements last weekend. (We received two cobalts. The breeder recently lost all of his galacts due to an earthquake and didn't have any eggs or anything, so we decided to settle and get them sooner.) These frogs are a little bit larger, and so far are doing very well. I have seen both of them eat. I made a few changes from the last set up (no more aquarium gravel, no more moving the container, and no one is renovating the upstairs apartment) and so far they are thriving. We are having a heatwave this week so I am keeping a close eye on temperatures, but barring any changes in their behavior I will be moving them to their permanent tank in a few weeks.

Thanks for all the advice!


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Not to hijack the thread... but where in the US was there a significant earthquake???

Regardless, glad to see you have some replacements  Good luck!


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

I would definitly feed more this time also. You cant expect a frog to catch all ten flies put in the tank. I probobly over feed a little, but my azureus are fat and happy breeders.  They are big eaters, so feed them as such. Mine are adults, and i probobly feed them (hard to count flies) 50-75 flies every other day between the pair. If i notice too many in there when i go to feed next time, i feed less. But mine always have flies at their disposal, not enough to stress them out, but enough that they can hunt down a snack whenever they are hungry.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blackbird said:


> Asphyxiation? I don't believe so... I quarantine mine in plastic food containers, completely closed, and the frogs only get fresh air when I feed them - once a day - which should be enough.


Asphyxiation has been recognized to be a potential problem for a long time for example see 
Carbon Dioxide 1

Ed


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## DizzyD (Sep 19, 2006)

great link Ed. Glad to come across it. We should all take this into account, vacations, long weekends, etc. Thanx again for the link.

good luck w/ the cobalts. They'll eat so much you may think you'll run out of flies. I'd definitely minimize all "handling" of the containers/frogs, etc. And I personally have always dusted everyday. Alternating between the herpvite and the calcium, not mixed. Just my preference I guess. Whatever you do, keep reading, questioning and learning. Don't give up, b/c in the long run nothing worth doing is easy. Take care you'll get it. Promise.


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

Ed, that was probably the best reading I have had on this site during my time here. Very informative, and it's something I won't forget any time soon. Really an eye opening read.


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## fishieness (Jun 26, 2009)

Not sure if this has come up or not or if the cause was found (I did a quick skim of some of the posts) and I am still new to this, but perhaps there was too much yeast in the fruit fly cultures? Not sure how true this is, but I have heard if there is too much yeast, the flies eat too much and then the frogs eat too much and it can expand in their stomachs? Just throwing this out there, as you said they weren't eating well but were still pretty fat.
Can someone confirm/disprove this "fact" please? It's something I've heard, but not sure if it's too likely.
Good luck with the cobalts


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Yeast doesn't have anything to do with the consumption of the flies. The frogs are hard wired to eat as much as possible when it is presented to them.. so they will gorge regardless. 
The brewer's yeast provides protien in the culture which is a limiting ingredient (allows for a greater production in the culture). 

Now, if you put a culture that has really started with the active growth phase in a small terraria that allows the buildup of CO2 can gas the frogs. 

Ed


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

Ed said:


> Asphyxiation has been recognized to be a potential problem for a long time for example see
> Carbon Dioxide 1
> 
> Ed


Thanks, Ed, that was interesting. I will definitely keep that in mind the next time I'm on vacation.

Blackbird,
I also agree that in this case it was not asphyxiation. I opened the lid every day to feed. So far the general consensus, including in that article, is that there will not be enough build up of CO2 to cause a problem if the lid is opened once a day.

J-L Exotics,
the earthquake was in Southern California on May 17. It was only a 5.0 but apparently it popped the lid off of his grow out tank.

Erikb3113,
Yes, mine are eating a lot! I moved them out of quarantine this morning and actually have not fed them today because they have been gorging themselves on springtails all day long.

On a somewhat related note:
With the previous frogs asphyxiation due to Pine-Sol had been discussed as a possibility. Once again my frogs are in a non-carpeted room, and as I also have two dogs- and a husband  - the floor will inevitably have to be mopped. Is the Pine-Sol a serious threat? If so, does anyone have a suggestion for another product or solution? I'm having a hard time searching the forum on this one because 'mop' is considered too small of a word.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I personally would be scared of Pine sol fumes in the same room as the frogs......terrified actually.


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

Me too! (That's why the last time I did it I moved the quarantine tank to a different room for the day.) Which is why I'm wondering on the best way to clean my floor, because I'm terrified of anything with a strong smell... and pretty much any way I can think of to clean my floor involves cleaners with strong smells.


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