# Reasons for bad eggs/possible solutions (long)



## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

I don't believe a thread has been started regarding this subject and feel it is an area that has had many scratching their head at one time. I would like experienced breeders to chime in with possible reasons for bad eggs and then list methods attempted (Does not mean successfully received good eggs)) to obtain good eggs. Please keep this related to non egg feeders.

Reasons for bad eggs: 

1. female/male too young
2. Excessive high/low temps
3. Improper feeding
4. Improper supplementation
5. Inadequate lay sites
6. Excessive laying by female

Those are 6 that came to my mind. Please list others that you feel contribute to reasons for bad eggs. I will now list various attempts to find a solution to the above listed problems.

#2 Excessive high/low temps - - During my first year of frogging I noticed what I feel was stress in the frogs during late June, July, August and early Sept. due to heat. The frogs began to hide more often in 'unusual' areas. Amanda and I began to use a reverse light cyle with our lights coming on at 6:30pm and turning off at approx. 7:00am. This has helped immensly. It is about the end of August now and we have the most tads and eggs now that we ever had before. Using a reverse cycle creates a lower temp. in my frogroom than in the frog tanks too.

#4 Inadequate Supplementation - - - An odd trend I have discovered with some of my female is the laying of eggs with a concave shape - similar to a red blood cell. I have seen this with fantasticus, orange amazonicus and standard lamasi. At first, I thought it may be young age, so I gave it some time. In talking with some other froggers, it was suggested that I give it time and it will work itself out. Time was given and this concave yolk look was still present. I began to reflect on my supplementation. I use both Herptivite products - the calcium supplement and the multivitamin supplement. I use them seperately, the multivitamin 3 days a week and the calcium once a week. With the fants, st. lamasi and 'orange' amazonicus I increased the calcium to twice a week, while maintaining or lessening by one time a week the multivitamin. This seems to have had a positive affect on both the fantasticus and 'orange' amazonicus. I have two 'orange' amazonicus females. Three months ago, one never produced good eggs and the other produced clutches that were 50% good at best. Witht he increase in calcium, the 'producing' female is up to appropx. 75% of her clutch being good and the non-producing female now has 25 - 50% of her clutches being good. Similar results have been witnessed witht he fantasticus, but (unfortunately) the chance has had no affect with the st. lamasi.

#5 Inadequate lay sites - - - IMO this is a 'fun' problem because it requires the frogger to reflect upon the locations that the frogs 'prefer'. I enjoy watching breeding activity - male calling away, female following or looking for him and then finding... no eggs. Why? I enjoy creating lay sites of different types and watching what inpact the changes might have had. Some call it dialing in. Try canisters, broms, excessively humid areas, overlapping leaves.

#6 Excessive laying by female - - - I created this one just for the vents! They are laying machines but I notice the rate of good tads at the beginning of a 'laying binge' was much higher and diminished as time went on. I purposely removed all broms and film canisters as an attempt to keep them from breeding. Well, it worked - no eggs. I now will give the frogs about a two week break and then introduce a film canister when wanting eggs. So far it has worked very well as the rate of good tads w/o SLS is very high.

I could probably list other methods, but I think at this point you get the idea. I would ask that this thread not include egg feeder issues. I believe Rob has an experiment up and running. Please add your EXPERIENCES. I will print this thread and at some point try to create some sort of 'master' posting. Of course, it will evolve.

Jon Werner


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

*Great thread*

I just have to say that this is a wonderful thread to get going...these are the types of discussions that I immensely enjoy reading and diving right into. It's an incredible way to share experiences, trials, successes and failures...it is silly for everyone to have to start from scratch and have to make all the same mistakes.

Thanks for beginning this most excellent topic...I hope lots of people participate. 

Sorry I can't provide any input as I'm still in my research phase.  haha

Kristen


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2004)

Very good post Jon.Ok, I have a trio of 1.2 bicolors that have matured and for quite awhile I was finding clutches in some hard to reach places and none of them had developed.I recieved a suggestion from Scott M. to not mist their tank as much and make it so the coco hut was the area with the most humidity in it.Well, right before NWFF I found a clutch right where they were supposed to lay them,thanks again Scott.
Anyway, when I got back the clutch had gone bad.I kept the method up since I got back and last thursday after quite awhile of high pressure in our weather a nasty line of thunderstorms came thru and I think it helped matters while it was storming out I misted their tank alot to help simulate the condition we were experiancing.We got about 2" on thursday and 1" friday night so the low helped trigger them.
My male called like crazy on friday after I misted them and the females were chasing him everywhere.Today I found a clutch of 7 that look like they will be good.I'd suggest people watch the weather and when changes come try to simulate in by more misting.
I have noticed it during the winter here with my imitators too,if it was snowing like crazy I would mist them alot and they seemd to like to lay then.Hope this helps.
Mark W.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

One more thing to think about is what are the percentages of good vs. bad eggs in wild frogs. I would imagine it is different per species but would venture to say its not 100% all the time. Maybe some of the guys who have spent a lot of time in the field can comment on this. When I am getting an excessive amount of bad eggs the first thing I look at is vitamins. How long have I had the vitamins I am using? How long were they sitting on the vendor's shelf? Vitamins have a shelf life and will loose their effectiveness over time. I always buy the smallest containers so that I have a better chance always having "fresh" vitamins.

I know you want to exclude egg feeders but I think in terms of getting good fertile clutches, the same things will apply. Raising tads, deposit sites, etc. I agree are for a different thread.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2004)

I agree that I think a lot of it has to do with vitamins and environmental conditions. In the wild Dendrobatid eggs are very difficult to find-- they are almost always in leaf litter and finding them is pure luck. With other eggs, like Hylids or Centrolenids, there is usually a very high hatch rate (that I've seen at least). I've honestly not had a lot of bad eggs (other than first clutch stuff) in captive frogs in the past. When stuff would happen, it would be some sort of terrarium insect eating them, fungal problems, or just a female laying too many eggs and not having enough gel. I think a lot of what you guys have mentioned are very important things.
j


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Great thread! 
I currently have Yellow Backs and Azureus laying and some action expected with my Leucs as well. The YB's have been laying every other week for 4 months now and I have yet to get anything beyond a few tads that have had short femur syndrome. Most eggs disolve after 48 hrs so I assuming they have not been fertilized. The Az's just started laying last month so I wasn't expecting anything from them yet. All frogs are healthy and get calcium and vitamin supliments daily The sup's are 1.5 yrs old at least so I was wondering if they are too old as John has suggested. My only other thoughts were that my frogs are young and that the temps are averaging in the mid 80's.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2004)

I concur, great thread.
I would add stress, bacterial/fungal destruction, and the general health of the parents to the list.

Stress can takes its toll. It effects the output of eggs, I am taking a leap here and speculating that , though its effect may be much less in comparison to other causes, this is a contributing factor in the overall health of clutches. Theory.

Bacterial/fungal destruction has been witnessed by us all. We use Methylene Blue from collection to hatching , even adding a few, diluted, drops to tad water. Bacteria and fungus scare me to no ends, they can be great destroyers. 

General health of the parents. This is one reason why I wish everyone would get a fecal done on every frog in your collection. If you have , say a 90 gal with six breeding terribilis, it will cost you $15-$20 for one fecal taking care of the whole tank. There is not a reason I can think of to justify not having fecals done. Know as much as you can about your frogs. Parasites draw from your frogs. Sap is also a word I could use. No symbiosis. These little guys can handle a large worm burden, it does not meam that they are thriving. I have seen fecals with four or five different NASTY worms from frogs that appeared to be fine externally, all the while being destroyed by worms. I would find it very hard to speculate on the cause of bad eggs if I did not know the general health of my frogs. Please get fecal done. Please use whomever you trust, but get them done.

I would love it if we either expanded this thread to include differences in species production, centering on numbers produced, frequency of clutches, temps for specific species, ect. or perhaps start a new thread touching on these all together.
Once again, great thread, I look forward to talking to you Jon.

Rich


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2004)

Oh, 
UV also, not so much in the vivs, but in nature.

Rich


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Hi Jon,

How about experience + guess (hypothesis)? I saw my fantasticus female laid down on a brom leaf and "cleaned up" a spot where she laid her eggs a few hours later. She rubbed her body against the leaf... 

I think, in the wild, these frogs clean up their egg laying spots physically AND chemically. They use their toxin to "sterilize" the spot... or at least to inhibit the growth of other organisms.

If that's true... then it's a matter of increasing their toxin productivity... 

This may not be the answer for all the problems though... especially when the frogs producing funky egg shape.


SB


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

Things are looking good, but I was really hoping more would chime in seeing that about 200+ views have occurred. Tim mentioned size and Dr. Frye mentioned quality of the parents. This reminds me of when I use to breed dwarf monitors. I was told by the monitor breeding guru himself that size has more to do with breeding that age. The feed-em and breed-em approach. Small size and young age on the females half might result in a few bum clutches. Quality of parents is another thing. This begins when they are froglets. I've heard of some very experinced breeders that do not supplement their food for their froglets. This surprises me, but it could be out of fear of overdose. I am not experienced enough to elaborate on this subject because I have not bred F2, F3 and so on. Supplementation schedules for froglets is another thread. I agree with Dr. Frye to a certain extent that parasites can impact reproduction. The first thing I would have to say is that parasitic load to some extent is natural but at some point must impact the quantity/quality of egg. Sounds like an experiment for someone. I do feel a key piece of information that is needed is the ratio of good egg vs. bad egg. I have asked Rainer to chime in on this. His experience with 'native' frogs would be great to compare with results we see here in captive stock.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2004)

Hi Jon,
My brother is Dr. David Frye.

Rich


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Jon,

Don’t be disappointed by the lack of responses so far to this subject. I know I have revisited this thread multiple times today, and mulled over my response to your excellent topic for most of the evening. 

What has been daunting to me – is you have touched on many of the issues most hobbyists & breeders experience - so it has been difficult to formulate a response. 

I think your point about overlaying by females is a valid point, but another way to look at this is a male who gets worn out, and can not reproduce enough sperm to keep up with the female. We have such a situation. 

I keep our vents in a breeding group. The group is a 1.3, and the male just can't keep up with all the females in this group. Currently, only 30% of the eggs laid by this group develop into tadpoles. There have been days when I have pulled out film canisters with 29 eggs in them. Only a small portion of them will be fertilized (thank god!!!). 

This is the only group of frogs we have such a poor fertilization rate. The difference I think is caused because the females lay too many eggs for 1 male to fertilize. 

Some things I have done to give the guy a rest include:
1. Not keeping film canisters in the cage at all times. 
2. Once a week, I add 1 - 2 film canisters. I remove them the next day, and usually have 20 - 30 eggs in the canister(s). 

Since changing this I have been getting a higher ratio of good, fertilized eggs. 


Does any one have any experience with inexperienced male frogs who just don't get the idea of depositing sperm over the eggs? All of us know it sometimes takes new breeders a few times to get things right, but I wonder if any one has experienced this as an ongoing issue. 

I have some additional ideas I will post in the next day or so. I look forward to reading the responses on this thread.

Melis 








JWerner said:


> Things are looking good, but I was really hoping more would chime in seeing that about 200+ views have occurred. Tim mentioned size and Dr. Frye mentioned quality of the parents. This reminds me of when I use to breed dwarf monitors. I was told by the monitor breeding guru himself that size has more to do with breeding that age. The feed-em and breed-em approach. Small size and young age on the females half might result in a few bum clutches. Quality of parents is another thing. This begins when they are froglets. I've heard of some very experinced breeders that do not supplement their food for their froglets. This surprises me, but it could be out of fear of overdose. I am not experienced enough to elaborate on this subject because I have not bred F2, F3 and so on. Supplementation schedules for froglets is another thread. I agree with Dr. Frye to a certain extent that parasites can impact reproduction. The first thing I would have to say is that parasitic load to some extent is natural but at some point must impact the quantity/quality of egg. Sounds like an experiment for someone. I do feel a key piece of information that is needed is the ratio of good egg vs. bad egg. I have asked Rainer to chime in on this. His experience with 'native' frogs would be great to compare with results we see here in captive stock.


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## benmz (Feb 18, 2004)

I think I have this exact issue. I have 2 pairs of cobalts. I used to keep them in a group (they were all siblings raised together), but once I started to find eggs, I separated the pairs. I left the active male and a female in their original tank and took out the other pair. It took a while, but the pair I moved finally started laying and are now producing good eggs. However, the original pair has produced nothing but large clutches (6-12) bad eggs. They lay eggs about once a week, sometimes more. Now this seems like an overproduction problem, but every single egg turns bad.
I decided to leave the bad eggs under the coco-hut thinking maybe they may "learn" that something is wrong. Well, the mood struck and this time they laid eggs on a bromeliad leaf. I was able to watch them. As the female laid the eggs the male was all over her, but didn't deposit any sperm (at least I think he didn't since I didn't see him do anything). He later left the female and never returned to the eggs and of course the next day they all turned white.
I don't know how to slow them down, I've reduced their food, I've tried to lower humidity and nothing has worked. My vitamin supplement is about a year old now, so that may be an issue. How do I help to teach this male a thing or 2?
I'm a little perplexed, but I guess that I'm happy not to have millions of tads since I don't have the space to raise them all.

-Ben


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

We've always had problems getting good eggs from our azureus clutches, and the male has been fertilizing them and doing all his male duties. They develop about halfway, and most will be bad by the next day. These usually look deformed. This pair has been laying for about 8months and the eggs really haven't gotten much better since the second or third clutch. We probably get about 3 clutches a month from them. I'm thinking inexperience is still the issue but you would think the eggs would start getting better.

We have run into a more interesting issue recently. Our vittatus usually put out nearly flawless clutches, but then the tadpole in the egg would start dieing in their final stages of development. We keep our tadpoles in petri dishes, and noticed the clutches were turn out perfect if you open it up to circulate air every day. The petri dishes we use do allow limited ventilation, but obviously not enough. So apparently lack oxygen/fresh air has an affect on the eggs.

This brings another thought to mind. We keep our eggs about half submerged in a methylene blue/water solution, I am also thinking this might inhibit the proper oxygen exchange to the eggs. I am considering swithching to spraying the methylene blue solution on the eggs everyday. This all makes sense to me except, we keep our terribilis eggs in the exact same condition but they have only had a handful of bad eggs out of hundreds. 

Just some thoughts. Later


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Kevin,

I have had this issue before as well - this is what I did to solve it.

I stopped using plastic petri dishes and switched to glass. If you have ever had the opportunity to look at glass petri dishes, they have a raised area around the rim to allow for air circulation. This has been very helpful.

I keep all our eggs in a rubbermaid shoebox. I place a papertowel on the bottom and make sure it is moist at all times. Then I stack the petri dishes in the container and turn the lid of the shoebox over, so it sits on top of the container. 

I check the papertowel daily to make sure it is moist to keep the humidity up. 1 time a week, I remove everything from the shoebox and clean it using virosan (novasan) solution, then set it back up for another week. In addition, I do use MB on the eggs, and only add additional water or MB when some has evaporated around the eggs. 

Again, this is what has worked for me, it won't work for everyone. 

I think I had posted pictures a few months ago of this setup, I don't know if the links to the pictures are broken or not...can someone let me know if they are?

Melis



khoff said:


> We've always had problems getting good eggs from our azureus clutches, and the male has been fertilizing them and doing all his male duties. They develop about halfway, and most will be bad by the next day. These usually look deformed. This pair has been laying for about 8months and the eggs really haven't gotten much better since the second or third clutch. We probably get about 3 clutches a month from them. I'm thinking inexperience is still the issue but you would think the eggs would start getting better.
> 
> We have run into a more interesting issue recently. Our vittatus usually put out nearly flawless clutches, but then the tadpole in the egg would start dieing in their final stages of development. We keep our tadpoles in petri dishes, and noticed the clutches were turn out perfect if you open it up to circulate air every day. The petri dishes we use do allow limited ventilation, but obviously not enough. So apparently lack oxygen/fresh air has an affect on the eggs.
> 
> ...


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Interesting thread... thanks Jon!

Anyway, I have a few ideas that no one has mentioned or barely touched on. For instance, light. When incubating eggs I have found that they develop much better if they are kept completely in the dark. I accomplish this by placing a thin, dark colored towel around the incubator. I have also noticed that incubating at cooler temps allows for much better hatch rates = less room for bacteria and fungi to grow.

Here is a much more complicated thought. Why do frogs or any animal for that matter have sex? Ok, stop laughing now. Basically, the guess is that the genetic recombination as a result of sex that occurs in the offspring is to thwart parasites. I like Matt Ridley's explanation best... think of an animal's genes as a set of locks. The parasite has the keys. Once the parasite finds a key that works it can infect the host. Therefore, the parasite can become more abundant and if they are successful their offspring can go on to infect more hosts. However, by recombining genes through sex it changes the locks and the parasites are left looking for the key yet again. An arms race is how it is usually described. 

So how does this relate to darts? This is the importance of keeping good pedigree info on all of your frogs. By inbreeding frogs essentially we are making sure that there are fewer "locks" = creating an environment for parasites to just run rampant. The effects of high parasite loads can easily reduce the health of the animal as well as its reproduction. The eggs produced can be irregular and undernourished. If Dr. frye is correct about his statistic that 90% (forgive me I don't know the actual stat) of frogs in the hobby have parasites than I can only ponder if some small fraction (or large one) of this is due to inbred frogs.

Ok, I'll stop as i see myself going out on a tangent here.

Justin


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

The reason for sex doesn't have such a simple answer. Living things that don't have parasites (complex single celled organisms, for example) have sex. Some parasites themselves have sex. Even plants have sex. Flowers are plants' sexual organs. Think about that next time you go to the florist or pick a daisy. Some plants can self pollinate (like corn and dandelions), but they do so only as a last resort.

The theory is that since having sex recombines the genes from the parents, the recombinations (and mutations that can happen) makes the offspring more adaptable to the pressures of its environment. Parasites are one of those pressures, but there are others. Predation, environmental change, competition with others in the same species, competition with other species, and so on. The reasons for having sex are wide and varied. Even most animals that ar hermaphrodites (such as worms and slugs) have to have another individual to mate. If you think about it, sex is really a bother. The organisms have to find an individual of the opposite sex, make sure it's the right species, and go through the mating process (where both of them are usually quite vulnerable). But the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Having two sexes (or at least individuals with both pairs of sexual organs) is a powerful adaptation in a world where the motto is adapt or die. So powerful that through hundreds of millions of years, single sex reproduction in organisms other than single celled organism is the exception rather than the rule.


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

Just got home from work and have a response from Rainer. 

Hi, Jon,

we have problems with eggs in the field at several stages: predation by ants (imi eggs) and a strange bloating up of the yolk in a REDDISH rust color with total loss (D. variabilis). Then we have fungal attacks which cause the venter yolk sac of the embryo to EXPLODE and so on. 
Put dry Oak or Avocado (Palta) leaves in the water or as a substrate to put eggs on (they have antibiotical factors) and keep the Terrarium clean: parents with fungus on the feet may sit on the eggs and infect them!!! There are also flies attacking eggs here and WASPS. Quite a struggle. If you RETRIEVE egggs from the terri, use sterile or clean vessels to raise them.
I would recommend also to cut out BAD EGGS- as fungal infections extend from bad eggs to good ones. You might use a light anti fungal medicine for Aquarium fish- or the blackwater concentrats they sell for fish. Torf (PEAT) in the water hinders also fungus coming up. Those are the recommendations I can give.

Cheers,

Rainer


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2004)

I realize I'm new here and this is my first post on here (I'm guilty of lurking for a long time) but I've been reading this thread with fascination too. My cobalts just recently started breeding and I've done things a litte bit different and I'll share with you what I've done and how things have worked out...but I don't have enough data to tell you the total outcome be it as my first tads are not totally out of the water yet. So if I'm doing something wrong, please tell me now. My other darts should be reaching breeding age in a few months.

My cobalts have been suplmented with Rep-Cal everyday and Herpvite about twice a week and started breeding at about 13 months of age. The first clutch produced 8 eggs 7 good. Which surprised me because I thought all first clutches were bad. I reared them out of the tank the plastic lids they were laid in spraying them with a mixture of water and Liquid Fungus Cure (10 drops to 32 oz). I eventually lost 4 more in development because they simply died. Three survived and hatched out of the 1st clutch and fed right away very active. 

The Cobalts continue to lay clutchs of 5-8 for me every 5-7 days. All of the eggs survived to hatch after that. I'm using a homemade tadpole food mixture of Spirulina Algae flake food (3 part), Pure Spirulina (1part) , Tetra Min Rich mix Tropical Granuels (3 part) and Freeze Dried Daphnia (1 part) all ground together. And they are raised in a homeade tadpole tea using peat/rain water. So far I havn't lost any tadpoles but like I said, I've not done this long enough to get one out of the water yet. 

Thank you for starting this thread. I have learned a lot so far even though I've had my frogs for a few years. Hopefully I'll get to post more. If anyone has questions ask away.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Hi Jon,

When Rainer said "we have problems with eggs in the field at several stages..." did he mean that the eggs were collected from the wild or at a frog farm, inside a terrarium and produced by parents that were fed ffs?

added:

I guess the reason I am wondering is because he mentioned eggs predation by ants.. which is likely happening in the wild... and then went on and said to keep the terrarium clean.. 

Is it just me or others are not sure about it either?



SB


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

*Adults just not breeding*

I've had a good amount out luck with breeding the frogs I've been able to breed, and besides the female eating another female's eggs I've only really encountered one breeding problem with some of my yellow truncatus. The main female of the group I had set up with an adult male I had aquired. She was about 3 and was absolutely fat with eggs. The male was at least 7 years old, possibly older and as far as those known 7 years, had never been with a female, only with other males. Both seemed active, healthy, and passed through a two month quarentine. Within 5 hours of being put together they were courting and I found 7 eggs. The next clutch was a record 13. The next two were 10. None were ever fertilized. At this point I pulled the male, thinking to give them a break and try again. That didn't work. Over 10 clutches and no fertile eggs. The male wasn't doing his job!

The same female later produced fertile eggs from another male, and they were happy froglets, so I don't think the problem was her and I never did figure out what was wrong with the male. Was it age? I understood that PDFs basically breed like young'uns up until they die. I've seen older pairs than 7 breed well. Was the fact that he had never been bred in his whole long life a factor?


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Arklier said:


> The reason for sex doesn't have such a simple answer. Living things that don't have parasites (complex single celled organisms, for example) have sex. Some parasites themselves have sex. Even plants have sex. Flowers are plants' sexual organs. Think about that next time you go to the florist or pick a daisy. Some plants can self pollinate (like corn and dandelions), but they do so only as a last resort.
> 
> The theory is that since having sex recombines the genes from the parents, the recombinations (and mutations that can happen) makes the offspring more adaptable to the pressures of its environment. Parasites are one of those pressures, but there are others. Predation, environmental change, competition with others in the same species, competition with other species, and so on. The reasons for having sex are wide and varied. Even most animals that ar hermaphrodites (such as worms and slugs) have to have another individual to mate. If you think about it, sex is really a bother. The organisms have to find an individual of the opposite sex, make sure it's the right species, and go through the mating process (where both of them are usually quite vulnerable). But the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Having two sexes (or at least individuals with both pairs of sexual organs) is a powerful adaptation in a world where the motto is adapt or die. So powerful that through hundreds of millions of years, single sex reproduction in organisms other than single celled organism is the exception rather than the rule.


Arklier,

Hello. Glad to hear a response. Let me clear a few things up here. First, I never said that this was a simple question. There are only so many things I can say in a post and speaking in general allows for the main idea to come accross. Next, I find it odd that you state some of the ecological models for DISPERSAL and ignored the main theory in ecology about why ORGANISMS have sex. I simply kept it to animals since I only wanted to relate it to darts. Yes, parasites have sex, but their reasons are different- to keep up with us and other organisms. Essentially, sex is a tool that allows us to stay the same. Sort of like a treadmill, where no matter how fast you run you stay in the same place.

Plants too use sex and I understand your point. Wouldn't you agree that a stand of wheat with four different varieties would stand a better chance at surviving a large rust fungus (wheat parasite) infestation than a stand with just one variety of wheat? Sex just allows for a greater variety of genes, new combinations, that keep the parasites "guessing". 

Most of the living organisms that do have sex and have no parasites (which can only be assumed in most cases) are also only sexual in one generation and then asexual for the rest. Maybe I rushed into this, but I will have some examples after some more thought.

Have fun,

Justin


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

(BUMP)


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Was talking to another experinced breeder about this topic the other day .He told me somethings that could be of use and were suprising and have seen the same results in my own collection . 
He said that in some collections in Europe that they will only work with w/c and or f1's . That after f1 the quality of healthy eggs and for healthy frogglets greatly falls. I have seen this myself .I keep a few tincs that are w/c ,and f1's.The w/c (long term) have had them for 5 years and the person that I recieved them from had them for 3 years . By far lay the most healthy cluches of eggs and the most , have seen as many as 30 good eggs at one time !! offspring of theirs lay as often ,not as many eggs and not as good . 
That it's self brings up a few good questions . Are we providing proper balanced diet ? Housing ? Tadpole rearing ? Ect.... 
Has anyone else had this experince ? Is there really a difference in f1's to the later f2 ,3 ,4's, and if so I feel as though we do need to find some answers . In the future we will only have the later generations of offspring to work with . 
Just a thought .I would like to hear if anyone has had the same results . 
Darren Meyer


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2004)

Another reason to mix true bloodlines and keep track of results.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

I heard about this too. I think it's from the same experienced breeder. :wink: Could be wrong but I don't think its genetic though. 

First, because F2s are the first inbreed offsprings (not F1). I don't think the reason F2s not producing lots of eggs because they have weak genetic makeup... Lots of examples here; fish, reptiles and other amphibians F2s... 

Second, I heard about WCs frogs that produce less eggs the longer they are kept in captivity. 


SB


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Darren, 
Are you saying that diet has had something to do with health of the W/C's before sexual maturity and that the diet we are providing to F2's may be having a negative effect on good egg proproduction. 
Could it be that your long term W/C's are fully mature and the younger ones have not fully matured(couple of years) to the point of producing a larger percentage of good eggs over bad?

Could this be a result of unintentional inbreeding that hasn't been identified yet? Any Frognet folks remember seeing discussions along these lines in the past.


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

In reading the responses I have gathered what I feel are reasons for bad eggs. Of course, there are more reasons than remedies. 

1. female/male too young 
2. Excessive high/low temps (parents)
3. Improper feeding 
4. Improper supplementation 
a. expired vitamins/ supplements
5. Inadequate lay sites 
6. Excessive laying by female 
7. Fungal attack on eggs
8. Eggs stored in area with excessive hot/cool temps
9. Stress (parents)
10. Insects, arthropods, snails, slugs


Please continue to list others that you feel contribute to reasons for bad eggs and solutions. I will now list various attempts by froggers to find possible solutions to the above listed problems. The listing of ideas should be included as well because that is where it starts. 

#1 female/male too young Is there a recommended time for keeping froglets/subadults out of a group or paired setting? My thought is that if subadults are introduced into a pair or group dynamic, nutrients for their development could get used to maintain the body due to competition or stress. 

#2 Excessive high/low temps (parents)- - During my first year of frogging I noticed what I feel was stress in the frogs during late June, July, August and early Sept. due to heat. The frogs began to hide more often in 'unusual' areas. Amanda and I began to use a reverse light cyle with our lights coming on at 6:30pm and turning off at approx. 7:00am. This has helped immensly. It is about the end of August now and we have the most tads and eggs now that we ever had before. Using a reverse cycle creates a lower temp. in my frogroom than in the frog tanks too. 

Male fertility and female fertility was also brought up – Melissa I believe. At some point I heard that male darts could have sperm quality issues due to excessive heat. They lack testicles and in order for the frogs to find the ‘right’ climate, they are limited by the environment in the tank. Are there areas that are cooler than others?

#4 Inadequate Supplementation - - - An odd trend I have discovered with some of my female is the laying of eggs with a concave shape - similar to a red blood cell. I have seen this with fantasticus, orange amazonicus and standard lamasi. At first, I thought it may be young age, so I gave it some time. In talking with some other froggers, it was suggested that I give it time and it will work itself out. Time was given and this concave yolk look was still present. I began to reflect on my supplementation. I use both Herptivite products - the calcium supplement and the multivitamin supplement. I use them seperately, the multivitamin 3 days a week and the calcium once a week. With the fants, st. lamasi and 'orange' amazonicus I increased the calcium to twice a week, while maintaining or lessening by one time a week the multivitamin. This seems to have had a positive affect on both the fantasticus and 'orange' amazonicus. I have two 'orange' amazonicus females. Three months ago, one never produced good eggs and the other produced clutches that were 50% good at best. Witht he increase in calcium, the 'producing' female is up to appropx. 75% of her clutch being good and the non-producing female now has 25 - 50% of her clutches being good. Similar results have been witnessed witht he fantasticus, but (unfortunately) the chance has had no affect with the st. lamasi. 4A – Also, check the shelf life of your supplements. Would it help to refrigerate them?

#5 Inadequate lay sites - - - IMO this is a 'fun' problem because it requires the frogger to reflect upon the locations that the frogs 'prefer'. I enjoy watching breeding activity - male calling away, female following or looking for him and then finding... no eggs. Why? I enjoy creating lay sites of different types and watching what inpact the changes might have had. Some call it dialing in. Try canisters, broms, excessively humid areas, overlapping leaves. 

#6 Excessive laying by female - - - I created this one just for the vents! They are laying machines but I notice the rate of good tads at the beginning of a 'laying binge' was much higher and diminished as time went on. I purposely removed all broms and film canisters as an attempt to keep them from breeding. Well, it worked - no eggs. I now will give the frogs about a two week break and then introduce a film canister when wanting eggs. So far it has worked very well as the rate of good tads w/o SLS is very high.

I recently received a copy of Dendrobatidae, The Fantastic Journey. Though I have only skimmed the writing, I did find a point that made a lot of sense. It was said that many froggers overlook the importance of seasons. Seasons are naturally occurring breeding breaks. As keepers, how many of us give our frogs a dry season? I have not, but have thought about it. I can see that I have given my frogs, micro breeding breaks, but not by changing their mist cycles and durations, but by removing breeding locations. 

It was mentioned in one of the responses that better production was seen from WC and F1 frogs. Some part of me doesn’t believe it is for genetic reasons. For example, look at tricolors. About two years ago I purchased them from an experience frogger and was joking told they must be F13’s! First of all, I am no geneticist. My first believe is that eggs are not receiving a proper nutrition load by the females because of extended breeding. Possibly the organs in their bodies are not given time to store important proteins, minerals or other nutrient. This would normally occur during a dry season. Could it be that their body needs to be ‘primed’ before a ‘good ‘ breeding year? If you look at how other herps are raised, brumation is a very important part of properly preparing the females. If we keep our frogs at 65- 74 degrees 24 hrs of the day, 12 months a year, we offer no natural cycle.

#7 Fungal / Bacterial attack on eggs
Rainer brought up husbandry and prevention as possible deterrent to fungus infection of eggs. It was also mentioned in Dendrobatidae. Adult frogs can contaminate their eggs by introducing fungus on their feet. Possible FF reminants on the bottom of the terrarium. Adding methel blue is an idea as well as using a peat based substrate. Tea extract in misting water as well as oak leave in the substrate are other ideas. One person on posted the he used cut treefern slabs in his water to acidify. 

Remove bad eggs from egg clusters as fungus can spread from bad eggs to good eggs. I have also seen this in Salmon and Steelhead eggs. Sterilize cutting tools and holding containers – Petri dishes / film canisters in tanks (rotate them) and small sterilite containers used to house eggs/tads.


#8 Eggs stored in area with excessive hot/cool temps
What are ideal temps? I suppose that excessive temps would increase tad heart rates and nutrients would be ‘burned’ rather than used for development. I have also heard that low temps can encourage limb deformities. I hope someone could add to this. Eggs exposed to light/dark was mentioned as well. I keep my eggs and tads right next to the terrariums w/o ill effects. I have heard that galac eggs are sensitive to light.

#9 Stress (parents)
Stress in parents could be a result of a sparsely planted terrarium with few visual barriers, no temperature gradients or an overly ‘stocked’ terrarium. Many people keep their frogs in breeding pairs while others prefer groups. 

Parental stress can also be the result of ‘excessive’ internal parasite loads. Any of the above mentioned stresses can lead to not as ‘much’ being invested in reproduction. Collectively, the impact could be much greater.

#10 Insects, arthropods, snails, slugs
Kill them… Some froggers bake and boil object introduced to their tanks to minimize infestations. Some will add banana peel at night into a tank with suspected problems. Returning in a few hours, you can find culprits and remove them.

Please continue to add what you perceive a problems that create bad eggs and possible solutions. Provided good imput, I will continue to provide summaries.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Jon,

I think the fertility issues I am having with my male has to do with him being overworked and not getting enough rest time. 

Temp might play a part, but I just don't think he can keep up.

Melis



JWerner said:


> In reading the responses I have gathered what I feel are reasons for bad eggs. Of course, there are more reasons than remedies.
> 
> 1. female/male too young
> 2. Excessive high/low temps (parents)
> ...


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

This is a good thread and it looks like almost all of the bases have been covered that I've ever encountered. However, although there has been a lot of talk about supplementation, I would argue that this needs to be expanded to overall nutritional status of the parents. I've found that some animals either will not lay, or lay poor quality eggs if they are not fed a high calorie, and sometimes high protein, diet beforehand. Fruit flies just don't always cut it so fatty foods like waxworms, termites, or flour beetle larvae are very useful for providing the energy the parents need to produce good quality eggs. In addition, crickets are a much better protein source than ff so they can be used to provide a nutritional boost. And of course meadow plankton is the best source of all as it most closely matches a natural diet. However, some froggers have gotten the idea that simply keeping frogs well fed and fat is the best way to maintain good breeding status. I disagree with this philosopy and feel it is a lazy way to breed frogs that may comprimise the longterm health of the breeders. My own observations and talking with other breeders indicates that ebbs and flows in caloric intact may be important in either synchronizing the parent frog's nutritional status for reproduction or possibly it creates a pulse of extra nutrition that triggers the frogs to pass along toward reproduction. Everyone who visits wild frogs in the tropics comments on how much more skinny they are than captive frogs. I feel that feeding frogs modestly and then increasing their caloric and protein intact prior to breeding not only more closely mimics what happens in the wild but also helps regulate how much energy the parents expend on reproduction and avoids burnout. Some pdf species seem to be better and self regulating than others but for those, like vents, that don't, controlling their intact may provide that regulation. Specifically regarding supplements, I agree that calcium seems to be really important. On several occassions I've slacked off on calcium supplements and noticed frogs start producing bad eggs. After restoring a good level of Ca supplementation, the frogs began producing good clutches. Also on one occassion I had a pumilio that had been laying a lot of eggs show signs of acute calcium deficiency. She was successfully treated and is still producing years later but I always suspected the egg laying had depleted her Ca reserves. Of course I don't have any idea how much Ca frog eggs contain since they don't have a calcareous shell but...

Second, I would place fungal infection as the #1 reason why good eggs go bad. All of the methods for controling this have already been touched on in this thread but it might be useful to put them together. In the wild, pdf are usually laying their eggs on a substrate that is rich in tannins (leaves, nut shells, bark, etc.). Tannins are natural antimicrobial agents so it is very likely that the presence of tannins in natural laying sites factors into the frog's evolution. In other words, they may not have developed strong antimicrobial defences in eggs because they never needed them. In captivity it helps to provide laying sites similar to what is found in nature. I use the normal method of a petri dish under a cocohut but I place a tannin rich leaf on the dish. I don't know if this is a real rule but it seems like leaves with thick waxy cuticles tend to be tannin rich. In temperate climates, oak leaves, alder cones, and even magnolia leaves are good sources. Almond, avacado, and the like are also very high in tannins as is sphagnum peat moss. Keeping the laying site clean seems to be key to reducing fungal growth on eggs. Frogs tend to track up the laying sites pretty bad and if the site isn't clean when the eggs are removed, then I rinse the eggs with clean water to remove any debris. I leave the eggs attached to the tannin bearing leaf and either transfer the whole thing to a clean petri dish or leave it in the laying dish if it is clean enough. I DON't put the top on the dish because that leads to fungal and bacterial growth. Instead, I set them up similar to what Melissa described by placing the dish in a larger container with wet paper towels on the bottom to provide humidity. This method has worked well for many, many, froggers. You can wet the eggs with tannin tea made by simply steeping some tannin rich leaves or peat moss in water. However, I've found that having a leaf for egg laying creates the tea when water is added anyway. I don't like using methylene blue simply because the natural alternative is so readily available and it is what the frogs have adapted to. Additionally, methylene blue may be too effective at controlling fungus. By this I mean that 100% survival of eggs may not be the best goal. Eggs within a clutch seem to have varying degrees of resitance to fungus. This could be just luck of where they are positioned in a clutch or it could be some subtle difference in their chemistry. The point is that allowing the most susceptible eggs perish may result in the strongest froglets being produced. If we rely on high input techniques like methylene blue to control fungus, then we may be producing future generations of frogs that cannot reproduce without this type of intervention. Over the years I have gone from caudaling eggs and trying to maximize survivorship to pretty much letting nature take its course. Yes, the survival rate of eggs has gone from somewhere in the high 90% level down to around 50% but I still produce more froglets than I know what to do with and I feel that what survives are probably more robust.

Finally, the notion that F2 and later generation frogs are inferior is very irritating to me. To me this places an artificial priority on extracting more frogs from the wild for the lazy excuse that they are easier to breed. If later generation frogs ARE harder to breed, it is not because of genetics but rather a lack of proper husbandry that we had best figure out ASAP. The bottom line is that we have not figured out how to successfully keep pdf until we can confidently maintain captive populations in perpetuity. That said, I know for a fact that there are F3 vittatus in the US that are reproducing like mad and I'm sure that soon their F4 offspring will be producing F5. I can't even guess how many captive generations some of our auratus are in.

Brent


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

*Good Post, but I think you are missing something Brent...*

Brent, 

As always, very long and highly syllabic post, with lots of good opinion and observation.

I think you might have missed the mark on some things in your last paragraph, though, and I think that you might be missing it due to personal distastes over the pet trade and importation for money, more so than just plain common sense towards the spirit of the original post when the reference to WC and F1's came up.

I truly believe that F1's and WC will outproduce captive breds easily, because they have not been asked to start running a marathon of sorts since they were very young. Almost all dart frog breeders are guilty of feeding only one or two types of insects, supplementing too much with stuff that stays resident in the frog, or is flat out poisonous to the frog, and maintaining an environment that NEVER changes. 69 - 75, humidity at 90 to 100, year round. The frogs begin a run where the environment tells them to breed, and breed and breed and never ever stop. Worse, the quality of the breeder is measured in the numbers of offspring produced! I think that the best analogy is "my frogs can sprint a marathon better than yours!"

In the wild they eat literally hundreds of different insects, and the environment changes letting them know, Okay, now breed. The point is that all the fatty and retentive organs in their bodies are holding nutrients and vitamins and minerals that will make the stress of breeding much much less. They can handle three or four clutches, and the clutches will be large, and all will hatch, because I think that the frogs themselves have built in defenses against fungal attacks and the like, which when strong enough, do just fine.

Then, when the environment changes back, they stop breeding, and once again pick up the vitamins minerals and nutrients that they lost in breeding.

Egg eating could be looked at for this as well - Humans missing an important nutrient have been known to eat concrete, dirt, chalk, whatever their brain is telling them they need to consume to get it. Perhaps the frogs are eating the eggs to retreive the lost nutrients? I have firsthand knowledge of males eating tadpoles and eggs, not just females.

So yes, I can understand the irritation at any statement that promotes wild collecting, but hopefully I have helped clear the point up.

John and Jen
http://www.tincs.com


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Brent,

The lab I used to work at had F12 auratus and F6 powder blues. This makes me curious as well.

Justin


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

*Re: Good Post, but I think you are missing something Brent..*



Tincs.com said:


> I think you might have missed the mark on some things in your last paragraph, though, and I think that you might be missing it due to personal distastes over the pet trade and importation for money, more so than just plain common sense towards the spirit of the original post when the reference to WC and F1's came up.


I stand by what I said. What I said was that if there *is* a problem with F2 and later not producing as well as WC and F1, then it is a *husbandry* issue that we need to figure out. I think you made that same argument very convincingly.

For the record, I have a few WC in my collection and am not at all against the responsible importation of animals from the wild. What I *do* have a strong distaste for is irresponsible importation from the wild which I would argue includes importing animals because they produce better and it is easier than figuring out what we are doing wrong that our F2 and later are not producing as well.

I remain skeptical that this is really a widespread phenomena though. I would really need to see a good deal of data with statistical analysis before I believe that reproduction is really declining as generations become increasingly removed from the wild. I'm sure this happens with some breeders, lines, or even species but that's a far leap from making it a generality. Even if it were true, the answer is in improving our methods rather than scrambling for new blood.

Brent


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Well I diden't mean to start a tangent . Was just trying to see if anyone else has had the same results . Rember the topic . bad eggs and possible reasons . The reason I was trying to get accross was , if true we should try to find the reason why w/c in some out produce f2, 3,4,5 and so on . I do realize that many of us do have f2and later frogs that produce outstanding offspring and all of the time . I personally have frogs that are of the later generations and am not too proud to say that "I have never been able to get to reproduce ". I would like to know why. Some people that I have talked too do not want to share how they get this or that to breed seems only to do so for greed . I myself do not want to see the importation of pdf's only for the reason of out producing or just because we are lazy . How crazy! Ido want to see us sustain captive populations and do the best that we possibly can w/ what we have ! Come up w/ answers help eachother, see what works share your experinces even if they be good or bad . AS far as proper cycling I totally agree w/ John and John Werner , seems as though alot of us myself also try to push and push our frogs to breed . I know it's hard not to . The most important thing once again is health of our frogs giving them the BEST possible care we can !! If you keep any animal , it isen't just a hobbie it's a responsiblity!Have fun !! Darren


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2004)

I forgot to note that we also employ an ozone generator.

A possible solution to bacterial/fugal problems.

Rich


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2004)

*Going the Wrong Way*

Okay, I think that this conversation is

1: - Going the wrong way. Jon brought up the original post itself to try and explain the wax and wane that even the finest breeders experience through the "lifetime" of their frogs, and was and still is looking for viable reasons and ideas. Taking off on a side tangent going towards simple husbandry, and a blanket statement that "we just need to figure it out and fix it" is just not going to fly.

2: - Ripe for a second topic that flies directly into the face of the things that we consider "standard." Like temperature. Like humidity. Like lay sites. Like food and amounts. Like weights, (slim vs. rotund) and things of that nature.

So once again, why don't people go back and read Jon's original post, and then comment on what they think. Think outside the box.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

*Re: Going the Wrong Way*



Tincs.com said:


> Okay, I think that this conversation is
> 
> 1: - Going the wrong way. Jon brought up the original post itself to try and explain the wax and wane that even the finest breeders experience through the "lifetime" of their frogs, and was and still is looking for viable reasons and ideas.
> 
> ...


Wait a minute. This has been a great thread and lots of good ideas and information came forth. One possible cause for bad eggs was proposed as "too many generations removed from the wild". Now that's a valid idea that bears directly on Jon's original question. However, I mentioned (and still think) that we would be irresponsible to just leave it at that and assume it will become increasingly difficult to breed later generation frogs. Doesn't this speak directly to the original question of what causes bad eggs? Isn't it worth exploring whether it is true and, if so, why?


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## tikifrog (May 11, 2004)

Please forgive me if I have missed it being previously mentioned. But, has base water quality been looked at. Not tadpole teas etc., but the water we start with, be it treated tap, bottled, R.O. etc. Over the years I have used several different water sources to moisten and humidify my frogs. Most all my frogs produce well when given the chance. I have had a pair of Nicaraguan G&B auratus for over four years. These were acquired as cb adults from seperate sources and paired together. They immediately began to produce clutches on a regular basis. For the first year, not one good egg. Yes, the teas and meth. blue and leaves and submersion and temp changes etc. were attempted. They were seperated for a few months and they again repeated the bad egg scenario when placed back together. I experimented by placing the male and female of this pair with different partners. The male produced viable eggs with his new partner, the female did not with hers (she laid more bad eggs). The male she was paired with had produced viable eggs with the female in the other pair. Being that these new pairs were not the same type of auratus these new pairs were seperated. The Nicaraguan pair remained split and housed in seperate tanks. This was about a year ago. OK, long story short, yeah I know, a little late for that! I installed an R.O. unit for my spraying system after Frog Day this year. I rejoined this pair prior to leaving for NWFF. While feeding today, I found the male was carrying a tad. Could the female be sensitive to the substances in the waters used prior to straight R.O.?

John R.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

*Other Reasons for Bad Eggs*

Y'know, Dave, Darren, and I were talking recently, and we came up with a few more reasons that there may be bad eggs:

Smoking,

Drinking, 

Lack of Exercise,

Weight,

Poor Genetics (breeding with a recipient of the Darwin Award.)

Too Young

Too Old

I thuoght that these were worth mentioning.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2004)

*Re: Good Post, but I think you are missing something Brent..*



bbrock said:


> I stand by what I said. What I said was that if there *is* a problem with F2 and later not producing as well as WC and F1, then it is a *husbandry* issue that we need to figure out. I think you made that same argument very convincingly.
> Brent


This is a huge underline problem in my mind. Just in talking with several people that have both wc and cb pumilio breeding *all* have told me the same thing. All the wc pumilio pairs out produce the cb pairs. This almost has to be diet related. Maybe breeding these frogs with the loss of toxin we have lost more than just the toxins. But I do know some of the frogs we have in the hobby are breeding like crazy, that are f3+.

Back to bad eggs, and environmental issues. This was in another post, seems like we have 3 going now, but how we keep our frogs is for the most part all the same. Take basti pumilio found on the beach and bicolor, these guys come from very different enviroments.... The basti would see bigger a bigger flux in temp and humidity, while the bicolor come from a much wetter area, that would most likely be at a much more stable temp ( just look at the fact that most phyllobates don't do well with temps over 80 and die with even a quick heat spike.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2004)

I am going to have to disagree with the comment about the Phyllobates - I have seen terribilis on open dry forest floor, as well as bicolor. The areas were not wet. And I have never lost a terribilis to heat, and they have put up with temps over a 100 more than once. (corrected when I caught it.)

What you are saying is very very valid though. We keep every dart essentially the same way, when the differences in their individual environments, and the insects that each group is eating, could not be more vast.

It is NOT simply a husbandry issue. There has to be more to it than that.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Tincs.com said:


> It is NOT simply a husbandry issue. There has to be more to it than that.


Could you elaborate on this John? The types and variety of foods, temps and other environmental variables, fluctuations of environment or lack thereof. These are all issues of husbandry. This is a simple nature vs. nurture thing. If late generation frogs are not altered genetically (and at F3 I don't see how they could be that different), then the problems must be husbandry related - some kind of resource or trigger they get in the wild that we aren't providing.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2004)

John all I was trying to say was that a frog on the edge beach is going to have to deal with different elements than a frog that live in an area of rain forest that receives some of the highest annual rain fall per year.
I do find it interesting that you have had terribilis deal with temps over 100, I have never had a phyllobates loss to heat, but from discussions on frognet this seemed to be a problem.




> It is NOT simply a husbandry issue. There has to be more to it than that.


Well I have never thought of it being a *simple* issue, but I do think it is a husbandry issue. I think it is related to the diet of the parents, or even the how tadpoles are being raised ie. diet, temp, water quality etc. 
But figuring these stuff out is part of the fun of keeping these frogs for me.

BTW Lydia you bring up some interesting points.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

melissa68 said:


> Anyone else ever noticed the relationships between weight & breeding?
> 
> Melis


I know someone who noticed his retics bred much better after letting them go a bit skinny and then laying on the food again.

There are also many froggers who can tell you that tearing down a viv and rebuilding it in a different configuration often gets frogs breeding again. This fits the stress theory. Specifically how I think it could work with respect to egg quality is this. If times are always good, a frog might just kind of trickle resources into reproduction or maybe allocate resources somewhat randomly over time because after all today is no different from yesterday or tomorrow, right? This randomness could also create problems because the males and females might be allocating resources to reproduction somewhat out of sync with each other. Now consider what a little stress in the form of lean times might do. First, lean times might signal to the animal that it could die soon so maybe it should die trying to reproduce rather than just die. This phenomena is known in plants. The second, and preferable, scenario is that an animal going through lean times starts to experience better conditions (more food, more rain, etc.) and finds itself once again with surplus resources to allocate to reproduction. Not only would this trigger reproduction, but it would also synchronize the effort with potential mates.

Bottom line is that I think we underestimate the role of "stress" in driving reproductive processes. But I think the term "stress" is a bit of a problem because it suggests something that would make life miserable for our animals for awhile. Really what we are talking about is varying conditions and available resources in such a way that it provides the appropriate cues for the animals to initiate certain life processes.

Again, great thread!


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I guess the familarity with routine gets 'humans' too. We get complacent when we get into routines.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

---


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

Any new thoughts out there?


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## aattea (Aug 31, 2004)

I am late in the game here, but several years ago I had a terrible time with eggs all going bad very late in development. They would make to well formed "tadpoles" and the the gut/yolk sac would bloat and burst (usually between day 8 - 12). I could not figure out the problem for a long while.

I finally received a note from a frogger who experienced a similar problem and beat it by replacing all of his hand misting systems. He was convinced there was a problem some growth/bacteria that formed within the tubing. I replaced all of my hand misters and have not seen the problem since. 

Please note, this is FAR from scientific evidence. I changed a few factors over the time (supplementation, tadpole tea, etc), so I cannot isolate this as the issue. However, this was the final change before healthy eggs arrived. What I can say is that it before this I was seeing 100% egg mortality for developing embryos, so it is worth considering. 

I saw this on tricolor, leuc and tinc eggs.

Thanks,
AAA


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## aneides (Apr 12, 2005)

Hello,

Thought I would join this and just add to the volume of experience on this subject.

I have bred quite a few dart frog species and have also been frustrated with not getting eggs, getting poor fertilization and having eggs tease me to the point of hatching only to fail a day or less before they should hatch. Here are a few things that I have experience/done with D. azureus.

1. Wild caught animals (and one would assume captive bred animals) are not all created =. Out of 10 wild caught pairs that I worked with, which all came in at the same time, few of them bred right away. After a few months we increased the humidity in the tanks by applying plastic wrap with an inch or more uncovered for vetilation (note tanks were equipped with automatic misters which provided more airflow than tanks would have had without.) Almost immediately some frogs began to reproduce. By the end of the year all pairs save one had produced. Still some pairs never produced more than a few clutches. Maybe the pairs were incompatible, maybe some individuals never acclimated, etc. 

2. After leaving professional husbandry I began keeping frogs at home. I got a pair of azureus for fun and for financial reasons I fed them supplemented fruitflies only. I was somewhat lax about supplementing, really only adding once or twice a week. I had months of clutches that did not make it to hatching. I did everything I could think of with the eggs with no luck. Finally, I started supplementing more heavily. Within 3 monthes my clutches began hatching. 

3. Survivorship of the eggs is still not terribly high. I believe this has to do with the male not taking care of business all the time. My female tends to lay one or two eggs apart from the main clutch. These are almost always fertilized while 2 or more eggs in the main clutch are almost always not. I remove eggs as they go bad and eggs that show development almost always hatch now.

I feel, as do many of the contributers to this thread, that fruit flies alone (especially without adequate supplementation) are not a good food source for frogs and this translates to poor performance in reproduction. I know breeders who swear by termites. Personally, I think that alot of success can be had feeding crickets that have been gut-loaded with high calcium/nutrient veggies (ie collard greens, yams). It sounds strait forward but you get out what you put in.

One thing, that I noticed wasn't mentioned on the topic is something that I have been guilty of in the past. I sometimes, out of my desire to save the eggs from the perils of terrarium life, have removed eggs prior to them being fertilized. If you think you may be doing this (or if you don't know but you always get lousy eggs when you pull them) you may want to check eggs, then look in on them and remove OBVIOUSLY dead eggs, replace the eggs with the male and then after 48 hours or so pull them once you have noticed obvious development. Maybe this one is pretty basic but I thought it worth mentioning. 

Finally, I would like to comment on what Brent started earlier and what some members felt was off topic. I have known quite a few breeders who have bred frogs well past the f5 generation (inbred). I think this probably does weaken the stock for the evolutionary reasons mentioned in previous posts. However, this does not mean that we need to inject the stock with wild caught animals. It simply means that we need to network well and be good book keepers. If hobbyists contribute to the detroment or loss of the species we profess to love in their wild states, then no amount of captive breeding success can overcome the harm we have done.


Sorry about the long post 

Aneides


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