# Humidity NOT a problem in a 40G Breeder?



## DontCallMeAToad (Jun 25, 2021)

Hi all,

I have a 40G breeder set up growing in, with the standard wire mesh lid. On top of the lid are an LED light, a PC fan for circulation, and a plastic cover I scrounged from an aquarium hood. This leaves approx a 36"X6" strip of uncovered lid mesh exposed. Pics attached for reference (excuse the dirty glass). 

My questions is - with this setup, I'm consistently getting humidity readings of 85-93%RH on a Govee unit, no matter where in the viv I place it. Given all I've read about how hard it is to keep humidity high enough, especially in aquariums, any thoughts? I don't live in a particularly humid region (New England).


----------



## DontCallMeAToad (Jun 25, 2021)

P.S., I don't have a misting system or a water feature/bowl


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

DontCallMeAToad said:


> Given all I've read about how hard it is to keep humidity high enough, especially in aquariums,


Curious to see links to these claims; I assume they're from new keepers who are trying to figure out why measuring humidity is not giving them info that makes sense. The opposite is actually the case -- fish tanks hold too much moisture since they don't passively ventilate.

I'd recommend not measuring humidity at all. It isn't a very useful way to gauge the amount of water in a viv, and is very commonly misleading for multiple reasons.


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

What was the humidity reading in the tank when you took those pictures?


----------



## DontCallMeAToad (Jun 25, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> What was the humidity reading in the tank when you took those pictures?


Approximately 90%


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

DontCallMeAToad said:


> Approximately 90%


Nothing in those pictures says that this tank is at 90% humidity. It looks quite dry to me. 

No condensation on the glass
No water droplets on the Maranta plants
Leaf litter looks very dry , as dry as the leaf litter in my tanks where the leaf litter doesn't get hardly any water on it.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

EVERY experienced dart frog hobbyist is adept and employs the 'hand and eye' method for humidity. Gauges are not what we should depend upon. Gotta 'get in there' in the viv and hand check the soil...plants ect. False bottom should always contain water. Stuff like that


----------



## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Have you tested the calibration of your hygrometer recently? Might be giving you an inaccurate reading. If you’re unaware of how to test them, here’s what I do:
-Fill a small screw cap or something of the sort with fine salt-should have about a teaspoon or two of capacity. Making a little tinfoil cup for this is pretty easy. 
-Wet the salt with a few drops of water till it’s JUST damp/saturated. It should still be granular, but act somewhat like wet sand. There should be no visible water pooling above the salt, nor should any salt be dry.
-put the salt cup and hygrometer in some kind of container you can seal. Ziploc, Tupperware, whatever works.
-Given a few hours, the wet salt should cause an accurate hygrometer to stabilize at exactly 75 percent humidity. If yours stabilizes at a different number, note down the exact difference and add/subtract that whenever you read your hygrometer in the enclosure.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Keep in mind that single-point calibration only corrects for point accuracy, and not for slope (which needs at least two point calibration, and is definitely an issue in measuring RH as this is a calculation of moisture and temperature). The salt method ensures that the meter is reading within specs when RH is in fact 75%, but ensures nothing about readings at other RH%.

Also, hygrometers don't read accurately regardless of calibration when RH is near saturation, because of condensation on the sensor. Even without condensation, hygrometers are less accurate at the ends of the range, <20% and >80%; even $200+ NIST meters are only +/- 4% at those ranges.


----------



## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Keep in mind that single-point calibration only corrects for point accuracy, and not for slope (which needs at least two point calibration, and is definitely an issue in measuring RH as this is a calculation of moisture and temperature). The salt method ensures that the meter is reading within specs when RH is in fact 75%, but ensures nothing about readings at other RH%.
> 
> Also, hygrometers don't read accurately regardless of calibration when RH is near saturation, because of condensation on the sensor. Even without condensation, hygrometers are less accurate at the ends of the range, <20% and >80%; even $200+ NIST meters are only +/- 4% at those ranges.


Huh, TIL, thanks for the info!


----------



## DontCallMeAToad (Jun 25, 2021)

Philsuma said:


> EVERY experienced dart frog hobbyist is adept and employs the 'hand and eye' method for humidity. Gauges are not what we should depend upon. Gotta 'get in there' in the viv and hand check the soild...plants ect. False bottom should always contain water. Stuff like that


Problem is that I'm NOT an experienced DF hobbyist. Soil under the leaf litter is moist (water in drainage layer), but the LL dries off fairly quickly after I mist it.


----------



## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

That looks like it would dry out very quickly.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

DontCallMeAToad said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have a 40G breeder set up growing in, with the standard wire mesh lid. On top of the lid are an LED light, a PC fan for circulation, and a plastic cover I scrounged from an aquarium hood. This leaves approx a 36"X6" strip of uncovered lid mesh exposed. Pics attached for reference (excuse the dirty glass).
> 
> ...


At the moment, hygrometer readings aside, it _looks_ and sounds like you'll have more issues with things drying out really fast, than with things staying wet. Aquarium-style tanks do have a tendency to be overly wet, but it really depends on where in the states you are and what the average humidity is in your home - out here in the desert with 30% humidity, a 6" ventilation strip like that would result in my tank being bone-dry most of the time. Also, the fan is not really functioning as a circulation fan where you have it now, but rather creating more ventilation (which you may already have more than enough of). Here are my recommendations (and people who keep darts, please correct me if I'm wrong):

For the moment, keep an eye on how much you run the fan, and how fast things dry out. You may want to cut back on how frequently/long the fan runs. If you start getting mold or rot issues, cover the fan with mesh so it's frog-safe and move it into the tank so that it circulates air rather than pulls air in or out of the tank. Aquarium-style tanks have air circulation issues.

Keep an eye on your moss - if it is drying out and getting crispy, you're probably not misting enough. You _don't_ want to keep it wet enough that it grows quickly, but in my experience from 60-80% humidity, live moss will look hydrated and fluffy.

From my understanding of frog husbandry, moist underneath the leaves, but the surfaces drying off within about an hour of misting, is ideal. This is also ideal for most plants, which do not want water sitting on their leaves for more than an hour or so at a time.


----------



## DontCallMeAToad (Jun 25, 2021)

Thanks everyone. Based on the comments, here's what my plan is:
-Get a piece of glass cut to the size of the top of the tank (excluding the light and a smaller strip of open mesh than present)
-As long as the water is only in the drainage/wicking layer and not sitting on the plant roots, make it as humid as I possibly can, hydrometer readings be damned.
-Right now the fan runs for 1 minute, 3X/day. Cover it in mesh, figure out a somewhat aesthetically-pleasing way to place the fan in the tank (ideas, please!), and pare it down to 2X/day just for circulation.
-Once I have it stabilized and get frogs, put a shallow saucer of water in.

Comments?


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

DontCallMeAToad said:


> Thanks everyone. Based on the comments, here's what my plan is:
> -Get a piece of glass cut to the size of the top of the tank (excluding the light and a smaller strip of open mesh than present)
> -As long as the water is only in the drainage/wicking layer and not sitting on the plant roots, make it as humid as I possibly can, hydrometer readings be damned.
> -Right now the fan runs for 1 minute, 3X/day. Cover it in mesh, figure out a somewhat aesthetically-pleasing way to place the fan in the tank (ideas, please!), and pare it down to 2X/day just for circulation.
> ...


I don't know that you have to do all, or even any of those, now - it's not clear from your descriptions that there currently is a problem. How fast does everything dry off after misting? What is the ambient humidity in your house around the tank? Are there moist places at all times for frogs to hide if necessary?

@fishingguy12345 said that it doesn't look like 90% humidity in there (which I agree with, although up into the 80s can "look" pretty dry), but then you don't want it to be 90%, you want the humidity to vary from something like 65-85%. Unless breeding tanks are very different than normal frog tanks.


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

DontCallMeAToad said:


> -As long as the water is only in the drainage/wicking layer and not sitting on the plant roots, make it as humid as I possibly can, hydrometer readings be damned.


Why? 

Frogs don't need or want their air completely saturated with water. They need the ability to move from drier to wetter areas (and vice versa) to help them regulate their temperature through evaporative cooling.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Adding: you could do any of those things, but no need to do them unless you are having problems. For instance: moss mounted on the background is withering and looking crispy, mist the background more frequently. Frogs are constantly hiding, mist more frequently and/or get that piece of glass cut to reduce the ventilation strip on top. Start getting issues with mold or new growths rotting, move the fan inside to increase circulation.


----------



## DontCallMeAToad (Jun 25, 2021)

OK, not gonna lie - very confused right now. People were saying that the tank looks very dry/that it dries out fast, that aquariums have no circulation, and to not trust the hydrometer. Now it seems people are saying that the things I thought people did to increase humidity/circulation are unnecessary. Help!


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

You might be conflating "dry" with "bad" and "wet" with "good" when it comes to dart frogs - dart frogs don't want a constantly saturated environment, and neither do the plants that grow well alongside them. This is where I'm bowing out, since I keep lots of mosses and pleurothallids and no dart frogs, but I'll pop back in if there are more plant-specific questions.


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Harpspiel said:


> You might be conflating "dry" with "bad" and "wet" with "good" when it comes to dart frogs - dart frogs don't want a constantly saturated environment


You've learned well . 

@DontCallMeAToad : how does the substrate cell under the leaves? Is it dry, damp, really damp, fairly wet, or soaking wet? This is one way to tell how much moisture is in the tank. 

In a top opening tank, with no ventilation at the bottom I would expect to see condensation on the glass of the humidity was in the 70-90% range (my only top opening tanks (for froglets) have condensation on the glass most of the time and I only mist then once a day, if not every second day).


----------



## DontCallMeAToad (Jun 25, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> You've learned well .
> 
> @DontCallMeAToad : how does the substrate cell under the leaves? Is it dry, damp, really damp, fairly wet, or soaking wet? This is one way to tell how much moisture is in the tank.
> 
> In a top opening tank, with no ventilation at the bottom I would expect to see condensation on the glass of the humidity was in the 70-90% range (my only top opening tanks (for froglets) have condensation on the glass most of the time and I only mist then once a day, if not every second day).


Hmm, of the given options I'd say under the leaves is "really damp." The top side of the leaf litter does dry out quickly, but it's never been dry underneath when I've checked. Also, I just took a temp & RH reading of the room the tank is in using the same Govee unit I have in the tank, and the readings are very close - maybe that's why I'm not seeing condensation?


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

DontCallMeAToad said:


> OK, not gonna lie - very confused right now. People were saying that the tank looks very dry/that it dries out fast, that aquariums have no circulation, and to not trust the hydrometer. Now it seems people are saying that the things I thought people did to increase humidity/circulation are unnecessary. Help!


I'll try to clarify. If this doesn't help, I apologize in advance. Also, these are my opinions and recommendations only; other people may disagree, and have reasons for doing so. 

Step 1: Ignore humidity entirely. Pretend it doesn't exist. Hide the hygrometer in a closet.

Then, 2: water the viv at least once daily, in the morning, using a pump style spray bottle. As a really rough ballpark estimate of how much water to add, start with 200ml per watering session in a viv that size (see point #7 for how to figure out if you need to adjust up or down on this amount in the future).

3: Keep an eye on how the leaf litter, plant leaf surfaces, and hardscape dry out. Most of those surfaces should not have much if any standing water on them after a few hours. If they don't get sort of dry on the top surfaces after a few hours, increase ventilation. If they dry more quickly, decrease ventilation.

4: Mist again only after surfaces are dry and have been for a while. Or maybe skip it. Your plants can go without another misting today, and tommorow and probably the next day; I've taken frogs out of vivs and left the vivs for a couple weeks without adding water and the plants were a little less perky, but fine. (LATE EDIT TO ADD: when frogs are in the viv, mist at least once per day. They need it more than plants do).

5: Pretend there are frogs in there. It rains, and they come out and play in it. Then, as the viv dries, and they get a little less comfortable, they look around for a more moist spot -- are there a bunch of secluded moist spots in the viv? Make sure there are -- under the leaf litter, at the base of hardscape, under coco huts if you use them, etc. When they need to, frogs sit on moist spots and drink (frogs drink through a patch of thin skin on their belly). They also retreat to hiding spots with less circulation and more wetness (note I'm dodging the 'H' word) if the overall moisture level in the viv is lower than they prefer (although they hide for lots of other reasons too; see point #6 for how to try to tell the difference). In any vaguely appropriate dart viv, there are many areas that a frog can fit in that are nice and moist, that don't dry out between watering sessions. The frogs know where every one of these are, and will tell you what they think about your watering schedule by how often and when they go into those areas.

6: When you get frogs, pay attention to how they respond to water additions, and to the drying afterward. If the frogs are active after watering only for an hour and hide the rest of the time, add a watering session, or two, or three each day -- but only after the surfaces dry (or the frogs tell you it is time).

7: Pay attention to how much water builds up in the drainage layer. If a little builds up and you have to drain it out once every couple of weeks, that's perfect. If none builds up, increase the volume of water per watering session. If you need to drain it more than every two weeks or so, decrease the volume of water per misting session. 

Hope this helps.


----------

