# lethargic azureus



## weapon_X (Aug 3, 2010)

Hopefully it's nothing and I'm just being over protective. One of my normally really active azureus has been extremely lethargic since this morning. I observed him eat today, but not with his normal gusto. And his stance is more laying on his stomach than upright. 

Background info: 2 azureus in a 18x18x24 Exo-terra. They have been established in that tank for almost 2 years. No recent changes to environment (no plants/soil/etc). Correction: I just remembered I did add a new/second coco hut (washed throughly before hand) into the tank 3 days ago.

Food: FF fed daily. I did toss in some pin head crickets yesterday. They "cleaned their plates" as they normally do. They finish off all their food and hunt around for more. 

Normal behavior: Both are normally very active and always hunting for food, and come to the front of the viv when I walk past hoping it's feeding time.

Temp/Humidity: 68- 72f Humidity might be a bit high as there is always moisture on the glass. There is a waterfall and I lightly mist in the am before heading to work.

Injuries/marks: Nothing visible. 

One day is probably bit early to start to worry, but thought I'd ask. Should I put him in a quarantine/sick tank? Are there any things I should be watching for?

Thanks in advance for any advice/tips.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

The best advice I could give you at this point is watch when a frog spends more time than usual in the water. In my experience that is where frogs that are not feeling well usually go.


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

billschwinn said:


> The best advice I could give you at this point is watch when a frog spends more time than usual in the water. In my experience that is where frogs that are not feeling well usually go.


That's a tough call for Azureus because I have a breeding female that will literally hold her breath under water and has been doing so for about 6months. It initially started freaking me out but got use to the fact that she just likes to do it. She still lays healthy clutches and is very active. Also, all of my Azureus are in the water WAAAAY more than any other one of my frogs. I would just keep a close eye on it. maybe it's having digestion problems from the pinheads. How many crickets were fed to your frog? Try giving a good mist and maybe a small amount of flies and see if you get a positive reaction to it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kinison said:


> I would just keep a close eye on it. maybe it's having digestion problems from the pinheads. How many crickets were fed to your frog? Try giving a good mist and maybe a small amount of flies and see if you get a positive reaction to it.


Why would pinhead cause a digestive problem?


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> Why would pinhead cause a digestive problem?


Why would it be absurd to think it couldn't? I only feed my frogs true pinheads when available. Some people consider pinheads to be just a smaller cricket. Im just throwing out options to help this fellow board member feel like it might not be something serious so hes not stressed about it. If we need to make a 50 page debate on Ed's journey down the frogs digestive tract, please start a new thread instead of hijacking this one.


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## weapon_X (Aug 3, 2010)

Thanks everyone. I tried to peek at them this am before heading out for work but at 6AM they were all stiill hiding for the night. I'm going to see if I can get off work early to check on him. He was hanging out in the water feature yesterday but not really more than usual. 

I dropped in some ff yesterday and he ate but as I mentioned he and his tank mate are both greedy little suckers and are very aggressive feeders. Yesterday he kept his body close to the ground and walked rather than jumped after his food. 

The crickets were true pinheads but maybe the change in diet might have been an issue. I'll observe both over the next couple of days, in the meantime I'll finish building out another tank to put him in. 

Any thoughts on bumping up the temps a bit? Nighttime is currently 67-68 according to the gauge and daytime is 70-72. I was thinking of buying a heat mat (with a thermostat) for under the tank to keep the heat up a bit more not to mention eliminate the nightime drop.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kinison said:


> Why would it be absurd to think it couldn't? I only feed my frogs true pinheads when available. Some people consider pinheads to be just a smaller cricket. Im just throwing out options to help this fellow board member feel like it might not be something serious so hes not stressed about it. If we need to make a 50 page debate on Ed's journey down the frogs digestive tract, please start a new thread instead of hijacking this one.


If you are throwing it out as a possibility in the thread then discussions on the merit are not OT.. 

If we are throwing out possibilities that could have merit as possible random influences why don't we include plantary and say it could be due to Venus occupying Libra or due to Mercury's retrograde? That has as much influence as crickets.. 

Ed


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> If you are throwing it out as a possibility in the thread then discussions on the merit are not OT..
> 
> If we are throwing out possibilities that could have merit as possible random influences why don't we include plantary and say it could be due to Venus occupying Libra or due to Mercury's retrograde? That has as much influence as crickets..
> 
> Ed


lol... Well Weapon_X, there you have it. It could very well be Venus occupying Libra or due to Mercury's retrograde. Thanks for the input Ed.

Any how, Hope everything works out for you Weapon_X. Keep us posted.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

billschwinn said:


> The best advice I could give you at this point is watch when a frog spends more time than usual in the water. In my experience that is where frogs that are not feeling well usually go.


This is good advice.. In addition to this advice, getting as much of a work-up as possible by a vet is probably the best option. There are a number of possible issues that can result in these symptoms and those range from problems with osmotic balance (as shown by sitting in the water and the abnormal posture (particularly if the posture continues to be abnormal) which can be due to many things (including but not limited to infections (bacterial, viral, parasitic, fungal) to egg retention to impactions.. The previous are simply examples and are not meant to be an inclusive list. None of these can be readily diagnosed based on the simple case history you provided as they require other information like fecal results, skin scrapings etc. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

weapon_X said:


> The crickets were true pinheads but maybe the change in diet might have been an issue. I'll observe both over the next couple of days, in the meantime I'll finish building out another tank to put him in.
> 
> Any thoughts on bumping up the temps a bit? Nighttime is currently 67-68 according to the gauge and daytime is 70-72. I was thinking of buying a heat mat (with a thermostat) for under the tank to keep the heat up a bit more not to mention eliminate the nightime drop.


The change in diet is very unlikely to be the issue.. they can and do ingest much larger items with no issue.


Ed


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> There are a number of possible issues that can result in these symptoms and those range from problems with osmotic balance (as shown by sitting in the water and the abnormal posture (particularly if the posture continues to be abnormal) which can be due to many things (including but not limited to infections (bacterial, viral, parasitic, fungal) to egg retention to impactions.. The previous are simply examples and are not meant to be an inclusive list. None of these can be readily diagnosed based on the simple case history you provided as they require other information like fecal results, skin scrapings etc.
> 
> Ed


I will agree with you there.


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

Aw man, I had a pair of Azureus until about 3 weeks ago.

I came home from work one day to find exactly what you are describing. The male was sitting at the base of the waterfall looking lethargic, sitting lower and it seemed as though his eyes seemed to be a bit less open and he was not very responsive to anything. I misted the tank and kept an eye on him. The night before he seemed healthy and was eating like a champ (There was about a 20 hour lapse from when I observed him healthy to when I observed him obviously sick).

Three hours after my initial observation he was laying on his side near the back of the waterfall, he did a 180 degree roll and then just died. 

The female has been doing fine in the same tank since then, behaving in her usual bold manner. After talking to several people I can only assume I picked up a retired, old breeding pair and it was just his time.

I wish you better luck recovering your frog then my poor boy. If you figure out what the problem is please post, I would be very interested.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Kinison, read my prior post Carefully, I said, sitting in the water more than Usual!!! If your frogs sit in the water a lot that is your frogs, they are individuals, his might not spend a lot of time in the water. Also, this thread was to help a relative newcomer, I don't think Ed was coming for your jugular vein, lighten up before everyone leaves this sight except those looking for fights!


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

billschwinn said:


> Kinison, read my prior post Carefully, I said, sitting in the water more than Usual!!! If your frogs sit in the water a lot that is your frogs, they are individuals, his might not spend a lot of time in the water. Also, this thread was to help a relative newcomer, I don't think Ed was coming for your jugular vein, lighten up before everyone leaves this sight except those looking for fights!


I think your the one aiming for jugular veins and I believe you meant this "site." I could care less either way. So please pocket your exclamation marks because they do no good. I agree with your comment about sitting in water but also noted it is more frequent in my experience to see azureus in the water. There are days mine dont seem to leave the water. Ed wanted to state that there is no digestive issues after the poster stated the only thing different was feeding them crickets. I have seen frogs die from eating crickets, so to think my comment about digestion was absurd made me laugh. Ed likes to target my comments in many post and it is funny to see him get worked up. I think the poster had his concerns answered and was in no way offended by my post. If you don't like what I am saying, don't read it. By playing Jerry Springer with me on the internet will do nothing more than entertain me. Weapon_X, I wish you best of luck and please let us know if your frog turns out okay. I apologize by transforming your informative thread into another dendrobaord debate.


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

Weapon_X,
I keep my tanks a bit warmer than what you currently have yours at. Mine stay about 78-80 in the day and 72-75 at night. This has worked great for me for most of my frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kinison said:


> Ed wanted to state that there is no digestive issues after the poster stated the only thing different was feeding them crickets. I have seen frogs die from eating crickets, so to think my comment about digestion was absurd made me laugh. Ed likes to target my comments in many post and it is funny to see him get worked up.


Actually I don't target you.. I'm sorry but you really aren't that interesting a person. And for the record, I have yet to get worked up.. you may think I have but you haven't even got that right. 

What I do target is inaccurate, misinformative, or dogmatic statements that have no supporting evidence. Your response on the crickets was based on exactly the same justification as my comment on planetary influences.. 

Your post with the cricket comment ignored all of the other potential causes and reduced those risks with the implication that crickets are the problem without even any suggestion as to why crickets could be a problem.. that is not only a unhelpful post but potentially a problem as the other issues can be a medical emergency from which the frog can die while the OP is waiting to see if crickets are the problem. 

Can you post necropsy reports showing that pinhead crickets were the actual cause of death or are you going on the assumption "I just fed crickets, the frog is dead so it must be crickets"...? (Also note that there are no reports in the literature of death due to ingestion of pinhead crickets..)... 

I was trying to avoid a further hijacking but since you insisted.... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> Actually I don't target you.. I'm sorry but you really aren't that interesting a person. And for the record, I have yet to get worked up.. you may think I have but you haven't even got that right.
> 
> What I do target is inaccurate, misinformative, or dogmatic statements that have no supporting evidence. Your response on the crickets was based on exactly the same justification as my comment on planetary influences..
> 
> ...


To the contrary I have seen necropsy reports showing deaths due to crickets. Not pinheads but crickets the the owner assumed were. You can nit pick and use all the terms you want. It still doesn't change the fact that it happens. If you consider that inaccurate, misinformative, or dogmatic then your the smartest idiot I have ever had the pleasure to debate with. Your really starting to sound more like a pull string doll these days Ed rather than being informative. Maybe if you had your own forum we would have the pleasure of never having a opinion or a fact that Ed didn't like. And I'm sure you will have yet another comment to "set me straight" or use the word "dogmatic" once again, as you do in every post, but before you get all flustered how about a e-hug?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kinison said:


> To the contrary I have seen necropsy reports showing deaths due to crickets. Not pinheads but crickets the the owner assumed were. You can nit pick and use all the terms you want. It still doesn't change the fact that it happens. If you consider that inaccurate, misinformative, or dogmatic then your the smartest idiot I have ever had the pleasure to debate with. Your really starting to sound more like a pull string doll these days Ed rather than being informative. Maybe if you had your own forum we would have the pleasure of never having a opinion or a fact that Ed didn't like. And I'm sure you will have yet another comment to "set me straight" or use the word "dogmatic" once again, as you do in every post, but before you get all flustered how about a e-hug?


Cough up the report..... 


Ed


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Ed said:


> Cough up the report


I've fed out 10's of thousands of Pinheads. 5-10 days old. (Depends on temps and growth rate) 

I'd like to see this report as well...


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I as well have been feeding pinheads for at least 15 years and I have not seen any problems from the crickets.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed just wants people to show their work. 

It must be really frustrating for him to try to communicate with the average joe about these issues. What goes over most of our heads is just day to day talk for him. Try to give him a little understanding. We must really get on his nerves.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are some reports of larger crickets causing problems in the literature (see Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry for examples) but all of those involved much larger crickets and had one of two things happen.. either the frog/toad ate so many of the crickets there was a gastric impaction (which can occur with any feeder) or the frog/toad ate so many adult females that the ovipositor penetrated the gut wall. In both types of issues, it was in part due to poor husbandry practices as too many food items were offered as well. 

As an anecdotal report at work, I used ten day olds for tinctorius group frogs for over 18 years.... and those are much larger than pinheads. 

If one goes back through the archives (like those on frognet.org), for a long time there was an idea that azureus preferred smaller prey items so there is dogma surrounding the size of the food item they should be offered..... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Ed just wants people to show their work.
> 
> It must be really frustrating for him to try to communicate with the average joe about these issues. What goes over most of our heads is just day to day talk for him. Try to give him a little understanding. We must really get on his nerves.


It isn't that bad..  I just have the feeling that if I'm going to have to show my work, then those who are going to argue it need to show theirs as well.... 

Ed


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> There are some reports of larger crickets causing problems in the literature (see Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry for examples) but all of those involved much larger crickets and had one of two things happen.. either the frog/toad ate so many of the crickets there was a gastric impaction (which can occur with any feeder) or the frog/toad ate so many adult females that the ovipositor penetrated the gut wall. In both types of issues, it was in part due to poor husbandry practices as too many food items were offered as well.
> 
> As an anecdotal report at work, I used ten day olds for tinctorius group frogs for over 18 years.... and those are much larger than pinheads.
> 
> ...


There are also reports of crickets causing paralysis in bearded dragons but I'm too lazy/busy watching the Eagles play down to their competition to remember or research what the exact root cause was again.


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

frogface said:


> Ed just wants people to show their work.
> 
> It must be really frustrating for him to try to communicate with the average joe about these issues. What goes over most of our heads is just day to day talk for him. Try to give him a little understanding. We must really get on his nerves.


I have taken this into consideration. With that said I apologize for my comments that were not called for. As for coughing up reports, they were never mine to need to posses them. To prove my point would obviously be beating a dead dog. There is common sense in the off topic discussion regardless how you feel you should phrase it. Once again, I apologize to you Ed for directing rude phrases directly at you.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> There are also reports of crickets causing paralysis in bearded dragons but I'm too lazy/busy watching the Eagles play down to their competition to remember or research what the exact root cause was again.


Overingestion of too many/too large food particles (not just crickets) can cause a gastric overload which then presses on the nerves in certain portions of the lizard resulting in hind limb paralysis. Depending on whether or not the bolus is movable results in either a transitive paralysis or a more serious condition resulting in death. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kinison said:


> I have taken this into consideration. With that said I apologize for my comments that were not called for. As for coughing up reports, they were never mine to need to posses them. To prove my point would obviously be beating a dead dog. There is common sense in the off topic discussion regardless how you feel you should phrase it. Once again, I apologize to you Ed for directing rude phrases directly at you.


 
I accept. 

Ed


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> Overingestion of too many/too large food particles (not just crickets) can cause a gastric overload which then presses on the nerves in certain portions of the lizard resulting in hind limb paralysis. Depending on whether or not the bolus is movable results in either a transitive paralysis or a more serious condition resulting in death.
> 
> Ed


Upon further thought, I believe the culprit might have been the spiny hindlegs on the larger crickets, I believe the same issues have been noticed with larger roaches and chameleons.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Upon further thought, I believe the culprit might have been the spiny hindlegs on the larger crickets, I believe the same issues have been noticed with larger roaches and chameleons.


There is a pretty comprehensive reporting of it occuring anecdotally in bearded dragons.. most have it linked to crickets but a few also indicate that it can occur with any food item if ingested in too large of size and/or quantity. 


Ed


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> *There is a pretty comprehensive reporting of it occuring anecdotally in bearded dragons*.. most have it linked to crickets but a few also indicate that it can occur with any food item if ingested in too large of size and/or quantity.
> 
> 
> Ed


If you ever come accross it send it my way. I was always told the underlying issue were the spiny hindlegs and the animals either chocking or having their stomach lining punctured.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> If you ever come accross it send it my way. I was always told the underlying issue were the spiny hindlegs and the animals either chocking or having their stomach lining punctured.


 
Here is an account of it occuring in Rankin's dragons after being fed too large of a Zoophobas by a well respected professional.. 

https://www.sandfiredragonranch.com/pdf/Rankin's article.pdf 

Ed


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## weapon_X (Aug 3, 2010)

Thank everyone for all the advice and well wishes. He is doing better, still not completely "normal" but certainly more active and eatting normally. He has been sitting in the waterfall a bit more than normal or maybe it's just that I'm noticing it more lately. 

I've added an undertank heater in an effort to bump up the temps a bit. Hard to believe this San Diego, CA when our temps are in the 50's. House and tanks are currently at 70 but I'm hoping to get the tanks up a bit. If the under tank heaters don't work I'll look at breaking it down and putting in a aquarium heater under the false bottom. I'm just holding off on that since moving them will probably stress them out more than a little colder temp.

In the meantime, I'm just observing and if he or any of the others get worse I'll definately take them to the vet.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

The temperature range you gave (68-72) is fine for Azureus. I would recommend against trying to raise the temps too much. In the hot Summers here in NYC, I try very hard to keep my temps below 80degs. Any temps above that and the frogs don't seem to do very well.

Good luck with them, Richard.




weapon_X said:


> Thank everyone for all the advice and well wishes. He is doing better, still not completely "normal" but certainly more active and eatting normally. He has been sitting in the waterfall a bit more than normal or maybe it's just that I'm noticing it more lately.
> 
> I've added an undertank heater in an effort to bump up the temps a bit. Hard to believe this San Diego, CA when our temps are in the 50's. House and tanks are currently at 70 but I'm hoping to get the tanks up a bit. If the under tank heaters don't work I'll look at breaking it down and putting in a aquarium heater under the false bottom. I'm just holding off on that since moving them will probably stress them out more than a little colder temp.
> 
> In the meantime, I'm just observing and if he or any of the others get worse I'll definately take them to the vet.


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## weapon_X (Aug 3, 2010)

I just wanted to update and thank everyone who helped. The azureus that was lethargic has completely turned around is back to his old self. The girl friend was nice enough to buy me an adult female azureus which has now finished up her quarantine period and was added to the tank. After a week of hiding I'm happy to say she's not as bold as the other two but evidently a randy girl and following my larger male around and plenty of back rubbing is going on. 


I'm in the process of building out a viv for the azureus that was lethargic since he's a fair bit smaller than both of the other 2 frogs and I'm afraid he'll get bullied. So figured it would be better for him to be alone in his own viv to give him a chance to grow. 

One sad note to report: one my Auratus in a seperate viv died without any signs of problems. I've been keeping a close eye on it's tank mate but it's not showing any signs of problems. In fact it's been out and hunting for food far more now than when it had a tank mate. It's boldness has increased.

The only thing I can think it may have been something with the food source, but the timing was not really that close. 

Thanks again everyone.


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