# Sick pacific treefrogs, help,please



## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Have a large number of pacific treefrogs rescued from a pool being chlorinated about 2 years ago. All healthy until a few weeks ago, have lost over a dozen in the past few days although losses are slowing down a little. Red tiny blood spots under their feet, veins on belly, redness on underside of hind legs, difficulty righting themselves, dragging back legs, lethargy, bloating. Treated for red leg with mists 2x per day vet prescribed of enrofloxacin and then amikacin. Replaced the tank and everything in it but the frogs. Using paper napkin substrate, plastic plants, gut loaded crickets, mountain spring bottled water now with liquid calcium in it. Clean the cage and everything in it with hot water twice per day. Exotic vet is stumped. Necropsy unrevealing. I have a dozen 18 year old Pacifics and four whites in other cages who seem fine, but only one old pacific got sick. The sick ones are of course in hospital ranks quarantined. Suggestions please. Would like to test for whatever might be going on...chytrid? Rana? Bacteria? Parasites? Vet didn't see any parasites. Am tempted to just try treating the sick ones with lamisil soaks because I am desperate. Already lost my very favorite pacific, Spotsie, the most beautiful,and smart spotted frog in the world.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Red leg is a symptom not an actual disease. Those symptoms can be caused by a bacterial infection but its not the only cause. Have you had the vet do a necropsy yet? 
I would suggest asking the vet about viral infections. 

some comments 

Ed


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

In general it sounds like a bacterial infection. But I wouln't think that would stump your vet so I'm guessing I'm wrong. If the necropsy didn't show anything either...wow I just don't know. You've probably already checked out other forums, but just in case: 

Frog Forum - Basic Frog First Aid

Frogs 'n' Things Health and Medications - Resouces

Sorry hope they improve! Good luck.
Mike


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Ed, thank you for your reply. The vet sent for a necropsy and histopathology but said not much came out of it. He is also going to necropsy another frog himself. He did a second necropsy already himself and found a lot of fluid in the coelemic area which shouldn't be there. He is planning to necropsy a third one too. Am asking about tests for viruses like rana. Have found places on the Internet where I could just send swabs...the vet just had knee surgery yesterday so am thinking of just sending swabs off myself. Would like to do a culture and sensitivity for bacteria but he said the antibiotic treatment would bias it. Also aren't there parasites that won't show up on microscopic examination of stool? Not sure how to test for those? Their poop is kind of soft looking. Some get the red discoloration or back leg dysfunction but the worst is the bloating which doesn't go away and which seems most lethal.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Mike, thank you for the links. Have read them and am thinking of just trying some of the remedies. Wish I had a firm diagnosis. Will try to get some of the treatments and try them. The most pressing symptom is the bloating. Have read that people use salt for this but have been scared to try it. Soaking them seems to make the bloating worse.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

cwebster said:


> Mike, thank you for the links. Have read them and am thinking of just trying some of the remedies. Wish I had a firm diagnosis. Will try to get some of the treatments and try them. The most pressing symptom is the bloating. Have read that people use salt for this but have been scared to try it. Soaking them seems to make the bloating worse.


Have you tried soaking in a Ringers solution? I haven't ever used it, but based on the frogs n things link, Frogs 'n' Things Isotonic Amphibian’s Ringer Solids (Makes 1/2 Gal Soln) - Health and Supplements - Catalog

it can help with bloating. I just had a 5 year old frog escape and he's not doing well so I'm going to order some and see if it helps.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cwebster said:


> . Also aren't there parasites that won't show up on microscopic examination of stool? Not sure how to test for those? Their poop is kind of soft looking. Some get the red discoloration or back leg dysfunction but the worst is the bloating which doesn't go away and which seems most lethal.


The softness of the stool can be a result of the fluid retention. Keep in mind in the large intestine fluid tends to be reabsorbed but if there is an issue with fluid retention, then this can compromise the uptake from the fecal causing a loose stool. 

Amphibian Ringer's solution can be made with the following recipe 


> Amphibian Ringer's is made by thoroughly mixing the following in one liter of distilled/reverse osmosis or deionized water:
> Sodium chloride (NaCl) 6.6 grams
> Potassium chloride (KCl) 0.15 grams
> Calcium chloride (CaCl2) 0.15 grams
> ...


Discuss with your vet the possibility of using hypertonic ARS instead of just isotonic as part of the treatment regimen. Hypertonic solution can help the frogs to lose excess fluids from the tissues while isotonic helps to maintain the current levels. Trying to use ARS is of value as it helps keep the ion concentrations in the tissues stable. If there is an issue with getting ARS in a timely manner, ringer's solution may be substituted but you don't want to use lactated ringers as amphibians clear lactate much much slower than mammals). 

To try and make the frogs more comfortable, I have seen vets remove excess fluids from the body cavities by use of a syringe. I've seen close to 2 ccs removed from a large tinctorius that had some issues with bloating. 

some comments 

Ed


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Tardis101 and Ed, will ask the vet about Ringers. Tried tonight soaking the bloated frogs in 5 % dextrose. One that had died I soaked to see what it would do. All the excess water drained out of him an hour later. Another one who was dying died during the soak but the bloating is still there. Two others who are bloated seem to be breathing better after a half hour soak in the dextrose solution but don't know if it helped Judging by their puffiness. Am afraid to soak them for 24 hours as recommended in a vet text chapter from the vet. Also soaked all the isolated sick ones in lamisil 1 % --10 drops in 200 ml of water because on the Internet people recommended treating for fungus when antibiotics are given. It didn't seem to bother them so may try that for the 10 days recommended. Noticed some dead frogs quickly became covered in white fungus...are in plastic bags in isolation. Am looking around for somewhere to send swabs for pcr testing maybe for chytrid, rana virus, chlamydia, or ? Will ask the vet about types of electrolyte or ringers solutions and whether he would be willing to try chloramphenicol if they might have chytrid. Am still giving everyone up in the larger tank mistings twice daily with amikacin and daily calcium soaks and cleaning carefully twice per day. Hope the vet is not upset with me for trying things but I am at my wits end as I lost three more frogs today. On the positive side, didn't see any more obviously sick frogs in the main tank today. I hate stressing them twice per day plus I am getting tired.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Lost two more poor bloated frogs. Will call the vet first thing in the morning. Two more are bloated and so I soaked them in dextrose solution. Am trying to get hypertonic ringers. One seems stable, one not so good. At least see no obviously sick new frogs in the main tank.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Lost one of the remaining two bloated frogs. One is still hanging there. Five still very sick frogs including him remain. No other obviously sick new frogs.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Lost the last bloated frog, Splotchy. Very sad. Also did find a new possibly sick frog tonight in the main tank...kept his legs extended behind him. Will call the vet again.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cwebster said:


> Tardis101 and Ed, will ask the vet about Ringers. Tried tonight soaking the bloated frogs in 5 % dextrose.


Not a bad stop gap measure. The reason the ARS is useful in these cases is that osmoregulation requires ions such as calcium to function as the active transport to push the water out of the frog. The ARS helps as it also has these ions available for reuptake. 

Sorry that your still having issues. If you get the amphibian ringers (normal strength) you don't have to bath the frogs in it 24/7. Simply moisten brown paper towels with it and line a shoebox bottom and sides with the wet towels. This will function in a similar way to soaking them without as much stress. 

The reason you use brown paper towels is that they don't have the issues with causing a lower pH or the presence of chlorinated products. 




some comments 

Ed


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Ed, thanks for the post about using paper towels for ringers. Am waiting to hopefully hear from the vet tomorrow. Found another sick male in the big tank tonight which was very upsetting. He has a reddened belly and is dry and lethargic. There are three main symptom clusters. Some are bloated and die and nothing works. Some have reddened feet or a reddened belly belly and seem lethargic but stable. Some have nonfunctioning back legs which they drag either limp or stiff with odd lumps on the undersides of their back legs. Am about to give up. It is heartbreaking. The 18 year old frogs are fine. Am giving everyone calcium water now and all the younger frogs in the large tank are misted with amikacin twice per day as are the sick frogs in the two hospital tanks. The sick frogs I am also treating with a 5 minute lamisil soak at night. And am making sure the sick ones soak 15 or 20 minutes twice per day in the calcium since some can't walk. Am force feeding the nonbloated frogs every two or three days. Am so hoping the vet will have suggestions tomorrow and plan to request amphibian ringers and want to send off for pcr tests. Also want to try more tests for parasites.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Still have six sick frogs. No new sick ones in the main tank. One sick one still has reddening on his belly. One sick one is bloated. Two sick ones still have non working hind legs. Two are getting around well and seem to be eating. Am hoping whatever is going on is slowing down. Am at the tenth day of the amikacin. Am to see the vet tomorrow. He is great and I hope he has some ideas to improve things. Maybe pcr testing or tests for parasites? Don't know whether treating the sick ones for parasites would be helpful if harmful,without a firm diagnosis. Am glad no one else in the large tank,looks sick. One male in the main tank looked really skinny but he readily ate three very small crickets from my hand. Am still treating all the sick ones with lamisil soaks and the bloated one with a dextrose soak. And everyone is getting calcium water and uv light. Force fed three if the sick frogs. Will ask about amphibian ringers and may order some if the vet doesn't have any.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Remember you can use non-lactated ringers in a pinch as well. 

Since you had necropsies, I personally wouldn't concentrate on parasites and instead would focus on bacterial, and/or viral infections. Parasites should have shown up on the necropsy if they were present particularly if they did histopathology on the frogs. 

If it is a viral infection then you'd have to perform the supportive therapies in any case to prevent secondary infections. 

Compare the symptoms to the ones described on page 253 

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~jhoverm/Hoverman/Publications_files/Gray et al 2009 (DAO).pdf 

Gray, Matthew J., Debra L. Miller, and Jason T. Hoverman. "Ecology and pathology of amphibian ranaviruses." Dis Aquat Org 87 (2009): 243-266. 

I would strongly suggest discussing ranavirus and testing for it with your vet.

Let me know if it comes back positive. 


some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I am curious if you have any additional husbandry information for the tanks. How much connectivity between them, or the outside world? The losses being from one tank only imply it may be something that happened that is opening these frogs up to opportunistic infection. If it was a disease like ranavirus or chytrid unless you practiced fairly scrupulous seperation between the two tanks I would expect mortality in both.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Ed said:


> Remember you can use non-lactated ringers in a pinch as well.
> 
> Since you had necropsies, I personally wouldn't concentrate on parasites and instead would focus on bacterial, and/or viral infections. Parasites should have shown up on the necropsy if they were present particularly if they did histopathology on the frogs.
> 
> ...


Ed, will ask the vet about testing for ranavirus and will ask him to compare the symptoms and histology from the necropsies. Not sure why it would suddenly cause disease as they are two years old and have been in the tank with 0 sick or lost frogs in that time.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Dendrobait said:


> I am curious if you have any additional husbandry information for the tanks. How much connectivity between them, or the outside world? The losses being from one tank only imply it may be something that happened that is opening these frogs up to opportunistic infection. If it was a disease like ranavirus or chytrid unless you practiced fairly scrupulous seperation between the two tanks I would expect mortality in both.


Joseph, I have three tanks of Pacifics and have practiced total separation between them and have tried to practice rigorous handwashing and tank cleaning too. The only stressors I can imagine for the large tank were overcrowding as the frogs got older and/or toxin. A plastic plant I was using in the tank had paint start coming off the edges when I washed it. I discarded it, removed the frogs, and cleaned the tank but the paint came off on the frogs, my hands, etc when I washed it and it got wet. I have made complaints to the manufacturer, marketer, and pet store but they keep putting them back on the shelf. I tested the plant for copper with an aquarium test kit but it was negative. I don't know how else to get it tested. Also the frog losses started happening after we got a horned frog but he lives in another tank. And I wash my hands until my skin is dry every day because I wash with soap, alcohol, and hot water between containers. I got the frogs as morphlets two years ago from a very filthy swimming pool so they wouldn't get chlorined, when we moved 600 tadpoles out of the pool to ponds in the neighborhood so they wouldn't be killed. Not a single frog got sick or died until recently. One eighteen year old frog had suspicious symptoms kind of like red leg about a week or two weeks ago but she sadly is all by herself now in another hospital tank and seems ok now. And the dozen eighteen year old Pacifics are fine. Four five year old male Pacifics in still another tank are fine. The pacman/horned frog we got in December is fine. The four eighteen year old whites in another tank are fine. Something is wrong in the one 20L size tank with the two year old frogs. Am seeing the vet again in the morning.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Forgot to mention, when I cleaned and medicated the frogs on the large tank tonight, found another sick one. He seems lethargic, hind legs not working right, and has a tiny barely noticeable reddish capillary on his belly. So he joined the six frogs in the smaller hospital tank. Just checked the sick frogs and everyone is breathing fine. They should be more active though as it is nighttime.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Just got back from the vet. He is going to send the next deceased frog Monpday probably to another place for necropsy and DNA type tests. He is examining their poop again. He doesn't have amphibian or nonlactic ringers but gave me a prescription for normosol? If that is safe for frogs will soak them in that. Couldn't soak the bloated frogs in dextrose today because it molded so have to make up more. Does anyone gave experience with normosol? Thanks.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Still doing supportive care. Picked up normosol l from the vet hospital so will try soaking the sick frogs in that. Have stopped the amikacin. Remade the 5% dextrose because the previous batch got stuff floating in it. Will keep cleaning the frogs exquisitely. Will continue the calcium water, uv, and lamisil for the sick frogs and try the normosol for the sick frogs. Am so hoping there aren't any more new sick ones.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Lost another sick frog who became bloated. Normosil and dextrose soak not enough to save the poor boy. Vet called and said the poop shows protozoans but need to figure out what kind or if they are normally present.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Found another probably sick male in the main tank. He was a little lethargic. His belly has red splotches. So sadly had to put him in the hospital tank.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Lost two more frogs today. Both were very bloated. Dropped the first one off at the vet who sent him for necropsy. Then tonight another one died. I am close to giving up. It is heartbreaking.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I've been checking in with this thread with nothing to offer. Reading of your efforts is humbling and I so admire your fight for these frogs.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Sally, thanks for your post. Wish I could figure out what I can do to help them and what I am doing wrong.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I am wondering then if some toxin has caused organ failure of sorts in that tank of frogs(which seems to include renal failure) and is now opening them up to opportunistic bacterial infection?


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Have wondered too about a toxin. That one plastic plant had paint coming off when it got wet. No new sick ones tonight but the sick ones are unchanged including the bloated ones. Got the amphibian ringers in the mail today. How long should I soak the frogs in it? Just the sick ones? Will it help or harm the bloated ones? Have been soaking the bloated ones in normosol 15 minutes and dextrose 15 minutes twice daily.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> I am wondering then if some toxin has caused organ failure of sorts in that tank of frogs(which seems to include renal failure) and is now opening them up to opportunistic bacterial infection?


Liver failure is also a cause of bloating (ascites). 

some comments 

Ed


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Very disheartening day. After losing a bloated sick frog last night, lost another one tonight. Also found a dead female in a water dish this morning in the main tank. Plus worse found our probably 12 year old pacman dead. Am at least hoping he died from old age as he had no symptoms. He ate yesterday, pooped yesterday, had no reddening or bloating and seemed alert and happy. It is breaking my heart. Called the vet but he is gone for three days.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The Ceratophrys lived to a pretty old age so don't be too upset by that one. It approaches the maximal life span I'm aware of which was 15 years in a zoo collection. 

I saw above that there was some questions about an outbreak (referring to symptoms) at this time after being in captivity for several years and its possible origin. 

For many (even most) of the bacterial pathogens, these are generally common bacteria found in the environment. If there is a stressor on the frogs or increased exposure to the bacteria (such as occurs in overcrowded conditions with poor sanitation) then the infection can become established. (the following is an example not a definitive cause but just for better understanding) However if you have a bacterial pathogen that becomes established in one frog and then infects a second frog, you can experience an increase in pathogenicity as those bacteria which are better at infecting the frogs are going to be at a genetic advantage. 

The above can also apply to viruses. 

With respect to viral infections, viruses like ranaviruses can cause subclinical infections where few if any symptoms are seen. These viruses can be present in a population (depending on pathnogenicity) without causing overt problems until something either stresses the animals, the virus undergoes a mutation or both resulting in an outbreak. Additionally viruses in this family of viruses are known to use multiple hosts (such as fish, reptiles, and amphibians) as reservoirs. This makes it hard to determine the initial source of the virus and this is before we get into the fact that viruses in this family are also becoming known to jump from insect hosts to reptiles and now amphibians in a wide variety of taxa. So if the final cause is a viruses, the origin may be impossible to determine with absolute certainty and may require concentrating on limiting the spread through good hygiene. 

For those who want to read up on the ecopathology I suggest the following free article 
Ecopathology of Ranaviruses Infecting Amphibians

Miller D, Gray M, Storfer A. Ecopathology of Ranaviruses Infecting Amphibians. Viruses. 2011;3(11):2351-2373. doi:10.3390/v3112351.

and while not free this article is of value on insects as sources of the virus (and I should note that while it was detected in *one batch of crickets it does not mean that it is widespread in the captive cricket population*. 

Marschang, Rachel E., Anke C. Stöhr, and Tibor Papp. "Repeated detection of an Invertebrate Iridovirus (IIV) in Amphibians." Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery (2016).

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cwebster said:


> Very disheartening day. After losing a bloated sick frog last night, lost another one tonight. Also found a dead female in a water dish this morning in the main tank. Plus worse found our probably 12 year old pacman dead. Am at least hoping he died from old age as he had no symptoms. He ate yesterday, pooped yesterday, had no reddening or bloating and seemed alert and happy. It is breaking my heart. Called the vet but he is gone for three days.


Keep in mind that if this is a viral outbreak, pretty much all you can do is supportive therapy to try and help the frogs get past it. 

some comments 

Ed


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Ed, thank,you for your posts. Am hoping the necropsy results will include whether rana virus was detected. Also read with some concern about crickets being a source of problems. Am going to start discarding leftover crickets each week I think and start over with a completely new sterilized cricket container. If the disease resides in the crickets that won't fix the problem though. Am not sure it is the crickets since the frogs in the other ranks don't have symptoms and they eat the same crickets. No new sick frogs in the large 2 yr old tank today. Did find one eighteen year old male with mouth swellings though in the large 18 yr old rank. Force fed him. May start him on Baytril,until I can get him to the vet. There are tiny swellings right at the top where his mouth opens. They are skin colored and not sores. He otherwise does not seem ill...but he looked a little thin and his mouth looked like it was not closing completely. Could be neoplasm? At 18 yrs not sure if frogs get neoplasms. Am scrutinizing everybody.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I am just so in awe at your persistence and devotion to these sick frogs....and sincerely hope that there will be an answer, not just a guess...as to what is going on....you are offering a real lesson for us caretakers...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cwebster said:


> Ed, thank,you for your posts. Am hoping the necropsy results will include whether rana virus was detected. Also read with some concern about crickets being a source of problems. Am going to start discarding leftover crickets each week I think and start over with a completely new sterilized cricket container. If the disease resides in the crickets that won't fix the problem though. Am not sure it is the crickets since the frogs in the other ranks don't have symptoms and they eat the same crickets. .


Your getting the wrong take away which is why I tried to stress to not assume it is the crickets as the problem. The correct takeaway would be that if insects can get into the enclosure it is possible that iridovirus can also get into the enclosures. Unless the crickets are escaping from one enclosure and getting into a second its not a real concern. If it was the crickets, you are correct you would have seen it in a wider group of enclosures. 

Yes frogs can get neoplasms. See Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry. 

some comments 

Ed


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Just cleaned and fed everyone. Very upset because there are two new sick ones in the large 2 yr tank. One had balance problems and one was dragging his back legs and has reddish small veins on his underside. Will call the vet tomorrow but think he is back Tuesday. Am soaking the sick ones in amphibian ringers and putting them in the hospital tank.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Another sad day. Found a dead female floating upside down in the water dish in the large tank and found two new sick ones. Same symptoms as before, dry, lethargic, red area on the lower belly and legs, balance weirdness in one, one seemed like he was not able to get out of the water dish. Poop,in the main tank is still large and loose. Unable to contact the vet yet but am wondering about pcr tests for rana and chytrid and maybe more tests and treatment for parasites. Vet did say he found Protozoa. Could this cause the symptoms and deaths?


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Just fed and cleaned everyone. Found another sick female in the large 2 yr old tank, dragging her back legs. Isolated her. She ate a cricket out of my hand. Is soaking in amohibian ringers. There are a lot of large loose poops everywhere. Am wondering if Protozoa are a major part of the problem. Have a vet appt tomorrow to take in an 18'year old male with flesh colored swellings or growths just inside his mouth. Will ask about pcr tests and necropsy results. Vet tech let me know yesterday that necropsy showed a swollen liver and the vet saw a certain kind of Protozoa in the fecal.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Lost another of the sick females, very bloated. Going to the vet this morning. Another is very bloated. Have soaked them in amphibian ringers. When they get really bloated nothing much helps. No new sick ones at least. Especially want the vet to check out the older, 18 yr old male with mouth growths. Have read that tb can cause that. Want to see if pcr was done and came back yet for rana virus.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Went to vet then went back to drop off a dead frog and fecal samples. Vet has been very helpful, knowlegeable, and supportive. Still waiting for pcr for ranavirus. Necropsy histopathology was very thorough showing unremarkable findings (heart, lung, pancreas, large and small intestine, stomach., testes, kidney, adrenal gland, spleen, skin, brain, spinal cord, bone and bone marrow, articulater cartilage, skeletal muscle, tongue, eyes, oral cavity). Liver had mild, diffuse cellular swelling probably from degeration after death. No evidence of chytrid.Conclusion was "unlikely to be infectious," no evidence of metabolic bone disease, can't rule out toxin. Next step is sending out to test for toxins. Vet is sending liver and plastic plant suspected of starting this, for analysis. Also since he saw large numbers of Protozoa, is repeating fecal. Vet has been wonderful. Am very worried because if it is a toxin the remaining 50 or 60 frogs may be doomed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

High levels of protozoal in the GI tract are generally not associated with mortality like your reporting. Normal symptoms are a refusal to feed and then weight loss. It is pretty easy to treat. 

some comments 

Ed


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

cwebster said:


> Joseph, I have three tanks of Pacifics and have practiced total separation between them and have tried to practice rigorous handwashing and tank cleaning too ........... The four eighteen year old whites in another tank are fine. Something is wrong in the one 20L size tank with the two year old frogs. Am seeing the vet again in the morning.





cwebster said:


> Am very worried because if it is a toxin the remaining 50 or 60 frogs may be doomed.


How many tanks are these frogs in and what size are the enclosures? Seems like you're keeping these frogs at very high densities.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

I have four tanks plus hospital tanks. The whites are in a twenty gallon with a wire top extension that makes it taller. I have four eight year old Pacifics on a twenty gallon tank. The two large tanks are over four and a half feet feet long and 18 inches wide. One has a dozen 18 year old frogs. The other has about 55 or so two year old Pacifics. They were tiny morphlets when we got them but now are bigger, adult frogs. If you think it is too crowded i have a third large empty tank and could divide the two year olds up into two tanks once I am sure the old tank has no toxins in it from the plastic plant we are having analyzed, that leached paint when wet. Each large tank has five water dishes, plastic plants and six good sized hiding places. I did not lose any frogs for over two years after we got the morphlets from the abandoned swimming pool that was going to be chlorinated. We moved hundreds and hundreds of tadpoles and morphlets and tads to local ponds where people volunteered to take them and I kept the morphlets because my 18 year frogs were reaching their design limit. The Pacifics are extremely social and prefer to hang out during the day together under six hiding places and at night together in five water dishes. I studied them for years in the wild when I lived on a ranch because they kept moving into my house through cracks and windows. They kept coming into my bathroom, bedroom, and kitchen. At first I would take them outside but they kept coming back inside! After a while I just set up a pond on my kitchen table because they lived on shelves in the kitchen. I also took photos and studied them outdoors where there were a lot of creeks and they lived in my shed and trash cans and on the wallls. They always hid together by the dozens at night in groups. I would go outside and hand feed the ones in my shed which they would wait for and line up for at night. At night they would come down off the kitchen shelves in my house and I would hand feed them crickets near the kitchen table pond. Breeding season was always noisy. I moved a bunch out of my kitchen into a tank when I moved off the ranch because a large garter snake had moved in and was eating my friends, who by then had names of course. Those are my original 18 year olds, some of whom I watched grow from tads. I love the Pacifics because they also will blink to you as a greeting, especially if you sit and look at them and imitate their throat movements. They will blink back to you if you blink. One eighteen year old, Gimpy, had a stroke or something a year and a half ago and had to have her foot reattached because she was injured. The vet did such a great job, she looks normal. I hand feed her crickets and make sure she bathes twice per day and she always blinks to me. Four eight year olds in a smaller tank came from a prison cell...an inmate where I work had them as pets and they were living under his clothing and slept on him at night. Sadly he couldn't keep them so staff asked me to take them. By now you probably realize I am crazy about frogs. If you think density is a problem I can divide the 50 plus two year olds up into two tanks as soon as the toxin report is back...otherwise I may have to throw away the tank I stopped using when they got sick and get a new large tank that is not contaminated and put half into a brand new tank. I have been using that size because I can lift them and they fit in my car. I always take them with me when I travel, which is rare, once or twice per year because I don't have a frog sitter. Right now I clean all the tanks once a week except for spot cleaning daily, but clean the highest density two year old tank twice per day, the one where frogs have been getting sick. I hope whatever is wrong has stopped or will stop soon.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Still seven sick frogs. Exotic care vet said rana virus test was negative but necropsy shows liver disease. Waiting on toxicology results, e.g., heavy metals. So what can cause liver disease in treefrogs?


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

How many frogs do you estimate at this point are healthy??? My God, I feel so badly for you for this day-to-day issue...


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Hi, Judy! Would estimate 50 frogs are healthy. Seven are sick and in hospital tanks. Happily the 18 year old frog with mouth growths started eating by himself today again. Plus the pathology report came back benign and said removing the rest of the growth will be totally curative! So the vet is going to hopefully remove the remainder of the growth next Tuesday,


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Bad day yesterday. Lost three sick frogs suddenly and found a new sick frog, dragging her hind legs. The sick frogs were slightly bloated and died after soaking in amphibian ringers. Put the new sick frog in the hospital,tank. Am wondering if the frogs have fatty liver and if the leg dragging could be due to feces pressing on a nerve or ?? Am going to try decreasing their food intake to see if that helps. Some of the healthy frogs are pudgey. This worries me. Have been feeding extra out of worry and maybe that is wrong. I know that with fatty liver not eating will make the liver worse so,will decrease the crickets gradually. Will ask the vet what kind of liver disease the frog necropsy showed as a lot can affect the liver, e.g., toxins.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

do you only feed crickets???


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Judy S, yes, I only feed the Pacifics smallest 2 wk crickets I can find. Have tried mini mealworms, moths, and fruit flies but have not had luck with these. Have tried to avoid other high fat worms. Have had no problems until now with crickets. Are there other foods I should consider besides crickets? Am thinking the frogs may be having obesity related liver problems. Thanks.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

have you set up a feeding station for the ffs? And I know of at least one DB member that actually sets a whole culture inside the viv when they are almost played out...in the past did you have a problem getting them to eat fruit flies or any other food item?? I am a serious novice when it comes to keeping frogs, but sometimes questions just pop into my mind...


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Some thoughts.

I would look at the water quality(not sure if you are using water bowls or filtration) and reassess stocking density if this is an issue.

Obesity related liver problems could be possible-but very strange for all to be dying so quickly.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

JudyS, haven't used fruit flies since they were morphlets...they are 2 years old and one frog could easily eat dozens of fruit flies. Maybe some variety would help though. And Joseph, am using five bowls with arrowhead mountain spring water with calcium prescribed by the vet in the two year old frogs tank. The bowls are wiped out and water changed twice each day. My next attempt will be reducing the number of frogs in each tank. Am just waiting on the toxin report hoping I dont have to buy another 20long aquarium and everything in it from scratch and discard the two tanks I have. Two bloated frogs who I have not been force feeding, because they couldn't breathe, each grabbed a very small cricket from my hand and ate them today and the skinny paralyzed sick one is now sitting up on her front legs which were curled in contracture before. So am hoping whatever is causing all of this is slowing down now. Have a vet appt in the am to have the vet surgically remove the remaining extra tissue from 18 yr old Bug Eyes frogs mouth, the one with hamartoma growths. He has begun grabbing crickets from my fingers. Was force feeding him before.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Don't know what to say...sounds so damn desperate...I can only wish that whatever is going to be inevitable would happen....does not sound good to me at all...I hope I am totally wrong, but have a great deal of empathy for your situation.....


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Still not sure why i have lost so,many frogs. Am cleaning them twice per day. Lose some every few days. No more red leg type symptoms or bloating right now. Lately the new sick ones seem disoriented and turn in circles and go upside down, seem agitated, and cannot right themselves. Have to remove any sick ones quickly from the tank else they may drown in the water dishes which have about a fourth to a half inch of water. Have sadly found a couple dead upside down in the water dish who did not look sick before imwent to work. Will try treating some of the sick ones for parasites. Curiously with supportive care the recently sick ones dont look so bad and some are eating and defecating ok. But i am up to five hospital tanks. Once they are out of the main tank i cant put them back. Am really thinking this is from lead in paint they were exposed to from the plastic plant that had paint spread all over when it got wet.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Update: vet found high levels of lead in paint of a plastic plant. Frogs were moved to a brand new aquarium zwith all new accessories. Company that made the defective plant tested and found lead. The remaining frogs gradually improved with half a dozen still alive.


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