# Removed smallest frog from viv after bullying. What to do now?



## Yazz (Oct 30, 2016)

We have three sips and Little Blue is the smallest. Yesterday I caught Yellow holding down his head for a good 30 secs before letting him go. The last straw was Blue was on his favorite branch and Yellow came up, sat beside him, then body checked him off the branch. I look back and Blue has been hiding more than he used to.

Yellow is doing natural behavior and no grudges held. Just want to make sure Blue has a happy life too. 

I bought a used 10 gal tank that I use to grow cuttings in. It's a layer of spag moss and the plants on top. A cocohut and some leaf litter were added before Little Blue went in it. The little guy is acting much bolder now. Humidity and temp are the same as the other viv.

Now for the last part of the equation... We bought a viv with six Terrib Bicolors. A bigger tank is under construction for them and I want to clean their old tank up and put Little Blue in it.

All frogs and tank are from the same breeder.

1. How long can Blue stay in the cutting tank? There are no isopods or springtails in it. I'm picking poop out with a kleenex.

2. The old Terrib viv has a mature substrate which I'd like to leave in. Can I clean the tank walls and put in a new background without affecting the underground critters?

Life's never dull with frogs around...


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

Not to sound rude, but for starters terribilis and bicolors are different species. You have one or the other, but not terrib bicolors. They are very similar in appearance and care requirements and both belong to the genus phyllobates. You may want to find out exactly what you have to avoid future issues. 
As for the sip, what you are seeing is aggression from a dominant frog. Are they females by any chance? It is common for female tincs to fight which can lead to stress and often times eventually death. It was a good idea for you to separate them like you did. The frog should be fine in a 10g horizontal tank, although I would recommend a larger one for it. Especially if you plan on getting it a mate in the future. As for reusing an existing tank, you will hear many different opinions. If you are concerned with cross contamination then it should be stripped and rebuilt. If you have ever moved plant cuttings, coco huts or any other tank furniture between the 2 vivariums in the past then it likely doesn't matter because if there is a problem with one it will have already been introduced to the other. If this is the case and you are convinced that there is no problem with either group of frogs then you will likely be fine. May not be the best practices, but most people are cross contaminating their vivs whether they know it or not.


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## Yazz (Oct 30, 2016)

MELLOWROO, thanks for the reply.

Having been in the frog world for two months, my terminology isn't up to par yet. I did know that terribs are in the phyllobate genus. 

There are two older sips still in the tank that physically look the same body-shape wise and front toes. I was told you could begin to sex them sometime in January '17. Thinking Yellow's hormones are starting to kick in and Blue was an easy target. Have read about female aggression and was on the lookout for it. Hoping right now we didn't get three females.

Blue will stay a single frog from now on. I have plenty of time to learn more about cross contamination between frog tanks before the bicolors are in their new viv. Also, we had just made the cocohuts, never were in a viv before.

Hoping to hear more on the cross contamination subject...


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## Denny (Jul 1, 2016)

should of just left him in the viv. By moving him around you can cause more stress. My frogs have little battles here and there. Just make sure everyone has enough flies to go around. Not even frog can be the alfa frog.


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## Yazz (Oct 30, 2016)

Denny said:


> should of just left him in the viv. By moving him around you can cause more stress. My frogs have little battles here and there. Just make sure everyone has enough flies to go around. Not even frog can be the alfa frog.


Denny, I hear you about the stress. Blue has been foraging a bit, but mostly is hunkered down. Have a feeding station for him with an orange slice and he'll eat when he's ready.

Yes, there is a hierarchy in the viv, and that includes battles. But, both the other frogs are twice Little Blue's size. Not an even match up...


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

Denny said:


> should of just left him in the viv. By moving him around you can cause more stress. My frogs have little battles here and there. Just make sure everyone has enough flies to go around. Not even frog can be the alfa frog.


In my experience with tincs, this is terrible advice. Unless of course you like dead frogs. If that's the case then by all means go ahead and ignore the obvious signs of aggression and stress, keep your fingers crossed and let them work it out.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> In my experience with tincs, this is terrible advice. Unless of course you like dead frogs. If that's the case then by all means go ahead and ignore the obvious signs of aggression and stress, keep your fingers crossed and let them work it out.


I agree... everything I've read on tinc aggression recommends separating frogs. Leave them alone, and you'll likely end up with fatalities. I've got 5 Azureus in a 100g tank that are just shy of 1 yr old. I haven't seen any open aggression yet, but I believe to have 1.2.2 and the 2 unknowns are thinner and smaller - I think from some form of over-dominance of the 2 likely females. I plan to separate out a couple once the inevitable time comes where the females really start to show their dominance and aggression.


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## Yazz (Oct 30, 2016)

Thank you all for your input.

Blue goes in the cocohut now and half the ffs are gone from the feeder station. The little guy is starting to get used to his new home.

@ Mellowroo... Decided to tear the old bicolor tank down substrate and all, then start with a clean tank. Thanks! 

@ Gibbs... Thought having a 40 gal breeder tank with visual barriers was big enough for the three of them LOL. If the other two tincs turn out to be females, I'm going to partition the viv.


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## Trojan (Oct 15, 2014)

A lot of the aforementiomed advice is actually pretty good. I myself would have not left him in the cage but moving him as little as possible is key. I would put him in a 10 gal that very heavily planted and has lots of leaf litter. Then I would try not to stress him out with adding too much food but I would make sure I added a lot of springtails to the cage. This seems to help my stressed frogs recover. The springtails (I believe) stress out the frog less by not crawling all over them. Then I would add some flies on occasion and see if you can see him eating them. Any thoughts on this technique? Its just basically a hospital cage.


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## Yazz (Oct 30, 2016)

Trojan, Great technique for helping a stressed frog. The plant grow out tank is well stocked and had to take some plants out to get enough leaf litter in. 

The feeding station wasn't working that well. Too many flies in one area, so it was taken out. I saw him foraging, so sprinkled a few ffs on a leaf and he ate them. Going to put some springtails in today for the little guy.

Hope I never have to use a hospital cage...


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## gorr (Feb 20, 2010)

Ive found that once a frog has become the weakest link in the group it is best to isolate them to prevent any further stress from competing for food and space


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