# Who, 86 degrees!!!



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Just when I thought my tank was ready for my tinc to move in, I put my thermometer in. With 2 x 55 watt power compacts, my tank got up to 86 degrees!! :shock: What is the best way to vent the hood? I have plenty of ventilation holes, but touch the glass top, and it is warm! 

I'm having trouble finding the right kind of muffin fan. I bought the 600ma 12 volt adapter that kyle recommended for ventilation, but I need something strong for the hood itself. I'm thinking about ordering from http://www.sciplus.com.

I don't understand if two fans equal 24 volts together, or if its the ma I cannot exceed.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Your voltage requirement shouldn't change. What you need to worry about is amps. The muffin fan I could find on that website draws 170mA. So with a 600mA powersupply you should be able to power 3 of these.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I've been meaning to do this for a few days but this thread got me off my arse to do it. I've added the following page to the how-to section of my web site:

http://www.bbrock.frognet.org/venthood.htm

Hope it helps.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Cool. Isn't that the same technique by putting a halide inside a air cooled cylinder?

Good thing I've got some spare acrylic, I'm meaning to ask FCA to get me some new doors.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Brent, I'm going to try this heat shield thing. Now, do you have to unscrew the shield if you need to change the bulbs? 

I'll call Paul and see if he can make one that will fit inside my fixture...

Do the fans run better if they suck air from the inside out, or blow into the hood? I would think it'd be better to have them blow into the hood personally and out through an exit hole.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

So basically having a sheet of glass or acrylic between the tank and the lights will significantly reduce rising temps corrrect?

Luke


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Darks!de said:


> So basically having a sheet of glass or acrylic between the tank and the lights will significantly reduce rising temps corrrect?
> 
> Luke


It looks like 1-3 degrees F from what Brent wrote. I have a sheet of 1/4 acrylic between the tank and light. The temparature was rising about 2 degress. I added more air circulation and now it only adds about 1 degree. The acrylic probably is going to absorb some of the heat, but my guess is that since it passes so much light, most of your heat is from conduction rather than from absorbtion. Therefore, you will probably see greater heat reductions from moving the air around, creating a gap between the light source and materials that can absorb heat, and having a barrier that dissipates heat between the lights and the tank. Can't say you are going to get significant reductions, but probably a couple of degrees.

Marcos


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

That's what I would think too. The heat shield is elevated above the real glass top of the tank. It would be best to have two fans, one blowing through the lights, and another blowing between the lights and the glass top.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

what is the best way to get high humidity without a misting system, but also have lots of air circulation with a fan?

I've wondered if piping my average humidifier (the kind that uses evaporation to add humidity) would help if it blows into the ventilation holes. 

I have a water feature in the tank too.

What humidity is best anyway? Hans said his tank is only like 53% with the Netherlands paludarium style vent hood.

Brent, I have one question. I printed off your page, but I didn't know if you had an open hood design. Meaning, the lights came into contact with the vivarium air (or if they were sitting on glass). 

My tank has a glass top and sliding doors.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Blort said:


> It looks like 1-3 degrees F from what Brent wrote.


Actually the reduction was close to 10F moving from a bare bulb inside the viv to the finished product. Average daytime temp was around 88F with a bare bulb and now runs in the 77-80 range. Unfortunately I wasn't tracking min and max before the acrylic was added and I have no way of knowing the true mean so this is based on the most commonly observed temp during the day. But it's important to note it is not just the acrylic doing the work. Adding acrylic alone only dropped the temp 4-5 degrees F (which might be what your have cited). But designing the ventilation holes to produce a chimney effect provide the additional drop in temps

What this hood does is attempt to control for conductive and convective heat gain in the viv. It doesn't control radiant heat gain directly because the light energy at least into the near infrared (and probably into true thermal but when I tested solacryl, I couldn't measure above 850nm) goes through the acrylic into the vivarium. However, much radiant heat is absorbed by the hood and reflector and can be removed through convection through the vent openings.

This hood doesn't use fans. Instead it relies on the heat rising from the bulb to create convective currents that draws in fresh cool air through the low end openings as the hot air rises out the top rear openings. I think the computer overclockers debate the benefits of blowing vs. exhausting fans and I'm not sure there is a consensus. In theory it shouldn't matter in a sealed case because the same volume of air that goes in must go out. It should matter whether you suck it or blow it, you are still moving the same amount of air.

And yes, I have to remove 6 screws to replace the bulb. I'm not sure that fitting the acrylic inside the fixture would help much because the back side of the reflector would still be exposed to vivarium air space and would radiate large amounts of heat into that space. My goal was to trap as much of the bulb, fixture, and hood heat as possible and reroute that heat outside the vivarium without using fans.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

my tank design is the ventilation slot is in the back. Meaning, the back side of the tank is shorter than the front. Screening is placed. I like this design much better than holes ontop. 

My vivarium is double the size of that tank Brent, but it has 2 x 55 watt power compacts. It is 20" tall. 

Like you said, the chimney effect may work best. I bought from ACE hardware a big hole saw to make a nice cut to mount a fan. If I have the air blowing out through the top of the hood, convection would certainly work to my advantage.

How many fans, and how many ma would you recommend? Is it better to use multiple, smaller fans in different locations than one big one?


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

bbrock said:


> Blort said:
> 
> 
> > It looks like 1-3 degrees F from what Brent wrote.
> ...


Thanks for the clarification, I re-read the article on your website. I was looking at the numbers in your min/max temps table and not the numbers in the text. It's too bad you don't have that other temperature data it would be interesting. So it looks like 4-5 degrees from the acrylic and another 4-5 from the vent holes? I wonder if you could get more temperature drops by doing a double pane acrylic with an air gap between the two sheets like in double pane glass house windows.

Good stuff thanks for sharing your page with us.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

that's what I'm going to try


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## bobzarry (Mar 2, 2005)

I have 4 x 55 CF bulbs on my 29 high. I keep a 4" 120v computer fan in the hood blowing in from one side. The back of the hood is 1/3 open space, and the fan is on a temp controler. My tank rarely gets above 75º. the tank has a glass top with one section of screening 1"x5". This ads ventelation and humidity is kept up by an ultrasonic humidifier on a timer going on for 5 mins once an hour during the light cycle. plus a water feature that runs almost the complete hight of the tank and is about 5" wide at the base tapering to about 2" at the top. heat is supplied by the lights and heat pads, one underneath and one against the back glass.

I like the idea above of seperating the light space with a devider but would worry about heat build up cutting the life of the bulbs short. Certainlly a fan in that section couldnt hurt. Also would you not lose light par from having the light travel through 2 pieces of glass or acrylic?

Bob


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Blort said:


> I wonder if you could get more temperature drops by doing a double pane acrylic with an air gap between the two sheets like in double pane glass house windows.


I'll bet you could. I've been thinking about trying it. I know Ben Eiben has used insulated glass on viv fronts and it seems like he may have used them on the tops. My only problem is that to do it right I would like to have the double pains pumped with argon and hermetically sealed by a professional glazier. The advantage is the surfaces between the panes stay clean and clear. It's not that expensive to do but I'm not sure if they can do it with acrylic and I'm sure they can only do flat panels.

I need to edit that web site. I haven't even read it myself. I just hammered it out in about 30 minutes and I think it is confusing.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

How did you get 4 cfs over a 29 gallon?!? 

I could just remove the back panel of my hood and just have one fan blow in, the other out. 

I noticed that the majority of the heat is right under the bulb (obviously), and heats the glass before it can escape out through the back vent. I'm thinking about having each fan blow the length of each bulb, and with the back gone, it will have a place to exit. 

About heat shields, how close can they be to the bulbs? And what kind of acrylic is safe without warping? I'd like to try the double pane idea, but now I'd worry about the concentrated heat between the glass and the acrylic, as well as shortening the life of the bulb.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

bobzarry said:


> I have 4 x 55 CF bulbs on my 29 high. I keep a 4" 120v computer fan in the hood blowing in from one side. The back of the hood is 1/3 open space, and the fan is on a temp controler. My tank rarely gets above 75º. the tank has a glass top with one section of screening 1"x5". This ads ventelation and humidity is kept up by an ultrasonic humidifier on a timer going on for 5 mins once an hour during the light cycle. plus a water feature that runs almost the complete hight of the tank and is about 5" wide at the base tapering to about 2" at the top. heat is supplied by the lights and heat pads, one underneath and one against the back glass.
> 
> I like the idea above of seperating the light space with a devider but would worry about heat build up cutting the life of the bulbs short. Certainlly a fan in that section couldnt hurt. Also would you not lose light par from having the light travel through 2 pieces of glass or acrylic?
> 
> Bob


Bob,

Do you have any pictures of your setup? It sounds interesting. Also, how is the temp controller on your fan wired? Finally, you mentioned a light cyle in coordination with your humidifier, can you explain that in more detail.

This talks pretty in depth about the visible light losses:


> The visible light band ranges from 400 – 700 nanometers. Within this band, colors occur in the sequence observed in the rainbow, ranging from violet, to blue, green, yellow, orange and red. Each wavelength in the visible light band causes a particular sensation of color. As shown in Figure 1 and Graph 1, solar radiation is most intense in the visible light band. This band is also the area where the human eye is most sensitive to radiation. However, the eye is not equally sensitive to light emitted at all wavelengths; it is most sensitive to the light in the yellow and green areas of the spectrum.
> 
> When a light beam strikes a material, some light is transmitted, some reflected, and the rest is absorbed. Light transmission depends on the reflectance at both surfaces of the material and the absorption of light into the material. Colorless ACRYLITE sheets typically absorb less than 0.5% of visible light per inch of thickness. However, some light is reflected at both surfaces. A beam of light striking a smooth ACRYLITE sheet perpendicular to the surface (at 0º angle of incidence) will lose approximately 4% of its light at each surface due to reflection, resulting in a total loss of 8%. Therefore, the overall light transmission will be approximately 92%. If light rays strike the sheet at angles greater than 30 degrees from the vertical, the surface reflectance will be greater than 4% and, thus, the overall transmission will be smaller. For example, when light falls on colorless ACRYLITE GP or ACRYLITE FF sheet from all angles, as from a sky of uniform brightness, the transmission factor will be approximately 85%.


Where you would probably take the losses is in the UVA/UVB bands since those curves are more adversely affected by increased thickness. For example using OP4 acrylic at 280nm you get about 70% transmission at .125 inches, about 5% at .5 inches, and 0 at 1 inch.

Marcos


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

bobzarry said:


> I have 4 x 55 CF bulbs on my 29 high. I keep a 4" 120v computer fan in the hood blowing in from one side. The back of the hood is 1/3 open space, and the fan is on a temp controler. My tank rarely gets above 75º. the tank has a glass top with one section of screening 1"x5". This ads ventelation and humidity is kept up by an ultrasonic humidifier on a timer going on for 5 mins once an hour during the light cycle. plus a water feature that runs almost the complete hight of the tank and is about 5" wide at the base tapering to about 2" at the top. heat is supplied by the lights and heat pads, one underneath and one against the back glass.
> 
> I like the idea above of seperating the light space with a devider but would worry about heat build up cutting the life of the bulbs short. Certainlly a fan in that section couldnt hurt. Also would you not lose light par from having the light travel through 2 pieces of glass or acrylic?
> 
> Bob


Bob,
Have you measured temps with the fans off to see how much of a difference the fans vs. passive cooling makes? That's something I've thought about doing and could easily do it on my test hood. But I've gotten really cranky about the noise of fans and ballasts as they interfere with my being able to listen to the frogs. My goal is to have the mechanics dead silent so I'm trying to redesign to get rid of the cooling fans that I have if possible.

The heat build-up inside the hood around the lights does not seem to be an issue. First, I'm using UVB bulbs that need to be replaced every 6 months to a year anyway and they easily last that long. But I've had regular CF bulbs last for years in these hoods. Second, I'm not sure if you can see it well from the images on my page but there are a LOT of vent holes above the lights so heat does not build up inside the hood. Heat rises so it goes out the top and is replaced by cool air at the sides. Finally, those bulbs are much hotter than the air that surrounds them so they are obviously built to tolerate heat.

I should also point out that the hood on my page is a small viv with a CF which is the worst case scenario for heat buildup. I have a much larger viv with 2 96w CF that stays right at room temp without any fan or lots of ventilation in the hood.

_Edit: Marcos beat me to it in the above post so the following is basically a repeat of what he posted much better above. _

You would lose a little light going through two panels. The solacryl I tested passed a little over 93% of visible light so through two panels you would get 93% of 93% or 86% of the visible light passing through.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> How did you get 4 cfs over a 29 gallon?!?
> 
> I could just remove the back panel of my hood and just have one fan blow in, the other out.
> 
> I noticed that the majority of the heat is right under the bulb (obviously), and heats the glass before it can escape out through the back vent. I'm thinking about having each fan blow the length of each bulb, and with the back gone, it will have a place to exit.


It helps to think about the different ways that heat is transfered: radiation, convection, and conduction. Radiation is when energy is emmited from a source and then strikes an object. That object absorbs some of the energy and warms up. That's largely what is happening to the glass near the bulb. The light from the bulb passes through the glass but some of it is absorbed so it heats up the glass (or acrylic). No matter what you do, that light needs to go through the glass so it is going to heat up. Other radiation hits the reflector and hood where, again, some of it is absorbed and heats up the reflector and hood. Those warmed surfaces can reradiate heat or have heat carried away by convection or conduction. Convection is when air passing over a warm object heats up. The air molecules themselves get warm and then can carry the heat to other places. So the air passing over the hot bulb and other surfaces can get warm and then either mix with the vivarium air or get vented off. A chimney effect or blowing a fan across the hot bulb, reflector and hood speeds the convective heat loss and carries the heat away from those objects faster so they cool down. I don't think conduction plays a big role here. That is when heat is transfered through a conductor like when the handle of an iron skillet gets hot. Glass is a good insulator and poor conductor so I doubt much heat is conducted from a light to the viv space.

So, what cooling systems attempt to do is to convect heat away from those warm surfaces before they can be reradiated into the vivarium space. Obviously the more air you blow across the hot surfaces, the faster they will cool and the closer they will stay to the temperature of the fresh air being blown in. However, at some point adding more air movement will not add to the cooling effect of the vivarium because the point of the lights in the first place is to put radiation inside the vivarium and onto the plants. You can't radiate the plants and viv without warming it up at least a little. I use to think that fans were necessary to adequately cool these CF lamps but as I've experimented, I'm discovering that I can get adequate cooling in most cases without fans. However, if you really pack on the lights over a relatively small space, I'm guessing that fans would be a must.

About heat shields, how close can they be to the bulbs? And what kind of acrylic is safe without warping? I'd like to try the double pane idea, but now I'd worry about the concentrated heat between the glass and the acrylic, as well as shortening the life of the bulb.[/quote]


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## bobzarry (Mar 2, 2005)

lots of questions...hope I dont leave anything or anyone out...if I do its not intentional.

I have a 29 high. thats a 24"x12" foot print. the hood I custom made and is 11"OD high with a front opening pannel. this gives me enough room to fit the 4x55w cf's comfortably and still have plenty of room to open and do maintenance. Sorry I dont have any pics.... my digital camera craped out about a year ago and I never replaced it.

the 4" fan is surprisingly quiet. and I use electronic ballast also very quiet. originaly I had a 3 inch fan and it did not do a very good job and was much noisier. As far as the controller: I used a heat controller with probe commonly sold by most of the reptile supply houses, and they are fairly inexpensive. in order to control cooling I used a relay wired to the power=off post. (the controller sends current to the relay as it normaly would to power a heater. the fan is pluged onto the power=off side of the relay so when the controller sends power the fan turns off...when the controller shuts down the fan comes on) doing this reverses the use of the heat controller and lets you use it for cooling.

what I meant about the humidifier and light cycle is this: my lights are on a timer set for 14 hours. I purchased a digital timer from radio shack that lets you set multiple times on and off. so during the same 14 hours that the lights are on I have the timer on the humidifier set to come on once an hour for a 5 min duration.


Bob


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Brent, what is the purpose for your UVB bulb? From what I remember, the glass and acrylic will pretty much filter out all of it...but then again, I've never had to worry about UVB, because I have never kept other herps (even though the bulb is for pumilio).

While I'm at it, I think I'm gonna try to duplicate the sunset with another timer. Those screw in 2700 K are a nice color for a "sunset" effect. 

Has anybody used the red 13 cf I think you can get from Hellolights?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Brent, what is the purpose for your UVB bulb? From what I remember, the glass and acrylic will pretty much filter out all of it...but then again, I've never had to worry about UVB, because I have never kept other herps (even though the bulb is for pumilio).
> 
> While I'm at it, I think I'm gonna try to duplicate the sunset with another timer. Those screw in 2700 K are a nice color for a "sunset" effect.
> 
> Has anybody used the red 13 cf I think you can get from Hellolights?


My web site must not be very clear. I'll try to work on that. There is nothing between the UVB bulb and the rest of the vivarium except the thin shield of solacryl acrylic so the UVB gets through into the tank. The need for UVB in PDF is debatable but I've had enough experiences with my blue jeans to make me think it is mandatory for my pumilio and have decided to include it for all of the frogs. It also makes plants grow more compact and produce protective color pigments so they look nicer.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

bbrock said:


> Rain_Frog said:
> 
> 
> > Brent, what is the purpose for your UVB bulb? From what I remember, the glass and acrylic will pretty much filter out all of it...but then again, I've never had to worry about UVB, because I have never kept other herps (even though the bulb is for pumilio).
> ...


I think the website is clear if you look at the pictures on the site. I was thinking about the heat issue and have contemplated three things: (1) using a heatsink on the ballasts, (2) wiring the ballasts far away (if possible), and (3) using a water cooler system similar to overclocked personal computers. With (3) you could probably integrate it into an existing water sump system provided the water temperature isn't too high for the vivarium. It shouldn't be an issue if the volume of the sump is large enough.

It would be nice to have some scientific data about UV and frogs, but the anecdotal information seems pretty convincing.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Like I said in a few other posts on color enhancement, I still think (but haven't tested it yet) that tricolors will turn redder under UV radiation. Although totally unrelated, those red pigments you see in plants are often influenced by exposure to UV radiation.

Is that what you're referring to Brent? I am unclear of the care of pumilio, so I wouldn't know.

In an old post at the lounge, we had a discussion about Bombina's fading of green color to olive. I have heard from a few sources that these frogs spend a great deal of time basking in the wild, and potentially exposure to UV radiation helps prevent the fading to olive green.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Blort said:


> I think the website is clear if you look at the pictures on the site. I was thinking about the heat issue and have contemplated three things: (1) using a heatsink on the ballasts, (2) wiring the ballasts far away (if possible), and (3) using a water cooler system similar to overclocked personal computers. With (3) you could probably integrate it into an existing water sump system provided the water temperature isn't too high for the vivarium. It shouldn't be an issue if the volume of the sump is large enough.


Also not mentioned on my web is that my ballasts are mounted outside the hood although the full electronic ones don't get that hot. This would be the one component that would might have its life shortened inside a hot hood.

Last night I wrote a very long post about the various modes of heat transfer: radiation, conduction, and convection but somehow it vaporized and didn't post. I don't have the energy to recreate it but the bottom line was that there are lots of things you can do to cool hoods but at some point getting the lights cooler won't cool the viv. The reason is because the object of the bulbs is to put radiant energy inside the vivarium. Anytime radiant energy hits an object, some of that energy is absorbed and the object warms up as a result. So if you have good lights, a high percent of the energy goes into the vivarium as light energy. Removing the thermal (waste) energy from the hood doesn't change that. What you are really after is trying to remove that waste energy before it gets reradiated or convected into the vivarium space.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Like I said in a few other posts on color enhancement, I still think (but haven't tested it yet) that tricolors will turn redder under UV radiation. Although totally unrelated, those red pigments you see in plants are often influenced by exposure to UV radiation.
> 
> Is that what you're referring to Brent? I am unclear of the care of pumilio, so I wouldn't know.
> 
> In an old post at the lounge, we had a discussion about Bombina's fading of green color to olive. I have heard from a few sources that these frogs spend a great deal of time basking in the wild, and potentially exposure to UV radiation helps prevent the fading to olive green.


That's not what I was refering to but I suspect UVB influences coloration like you say. Ed had some nice posts on frognet about this. My argument for UV is that I've had several cases of calcium deficiency in pumilio using the same vitamin supplement regime used on all my other frogs but I've only seen it in either adult female pumilio actively laying eggs, or in cb juveniles about 4-6 months old. All cases were treated and cured but since I've added UVB as a safeguard, I've had no other cases after about 4 years. I also had a 4 month old juvenile go off feed which was being offered termites and meadow plankton. The frog looked like a goner so I through a UVA bulb over it and within minutes the frog perked up and started eating. It's still alive after about 4 years. This was UVA only.

I don't know if Ed is lurking this thread but he's mentioned that UVB can facilitate the synthesis of vit D3 and therefore calcium metabolism. I'm not sure if there are scientific data to show UVB facilitated synthesis or if this is inferred from other evidence. I always meant to ask that and never have.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Blort, do you know if 2 fans rated at 150 ma will be enough circulation for a hood with 2 x 55w cf?

What is the conversion of .1 amp to ma?


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

There are 1000 mA in 1 amp, so .1 amp is 100 mA. Do you have the CFM output of the fans? That will tell you more than the power rating.

Best,

Marcos


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I mounted two muffin fans from Science Plus http://www.sciplus.com, and they make a helluva lot of noise, so I've cranked down to only 9 v with the switch. Lot noisier than my CPU's fan!

I was able to get the glass from getting hot, but it is still warm to the touch.

Unfortunately, the tank is STILL hoovering near 84 degrees near the top of the tank, when the room temp is about 76-78 degrees. There is only a 2 degree gradient on the bottom...things could get dangerous when summer comes.

I would think a far, far more effective way to vent the tank is to have fans blow INTO the tank. I really think my heat is coming more from radiant source of 2 x 55 watts. 

But one problem, something that may cause me to just say "hell with it" and let my orchids just have it. There ISN'T a place for a fogger. I have no way to pipe an ultrasonic humidifier into the tank at the moment. 

I know the fogger produces a jet stream, something good to circulate the air.

Brent's page about taming the heat presents some interesting information. My tank is double the volume, 40 gallons, and uses 110 watts. I have found that my tank has run double the temperature above ambient room temp (6-8 degrees). even with a fan.

This breaks my heart, but is it possible to just remove a bulb, and allow one bulb to run off of the ballast? Or, will that overdrive the single bulb?

Another option is: Buy a few red eyed tree frogs and get LEDs for night time.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Any chance you can lower the room temperature? If my frog room were that warm, my vivs would cook. I keep my thermostat set at 68F.

Blowing air through the viv is a much more efficient way to cool the viv but it is also a very efficient way to dry it out. I had a viv (it's the auratus viv on my web page) that was about 20% water surface area, had an ultrasonic humidifier hooked up, and a little cpu fan sucking air out of the viv up by the lights. The auratus got really shy and never came out except to eat. The temps were good and I couldn't figure it out. I assumed with that much water in the viv and a humidifier coming on for several minutes every hour, the humidity must be good too. I threw a hygrometer in was amazed. Humidity was near 100% when the fogger was going but within a minute of shutting off, the humidity would drop until it hit about 60% which was about room ambient. That little fan was sucking the air dry. I shut off the fan and watched the humidity climb. Within an hour the frogs were out and the male was calling. First time in months. I think this temp/humidity/intense light issue is the biggest technological challenge in vivaria.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2005)

If you are worried about noise you can use "stealth computer fans". They run a alot quiter but cost a bit more. Also note that the larger the fan the quieter it will be. I recommend 120mm fans for computer case cooling and light hoods.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

stitch said:


> If you are worried about noise you can use "stealth computer fans". They run a alot quiter but cost a bit more. Also note that the larger the fan the quieter it will be. I recommend 120mm fans for computer case cooling and light hoods.


Is this a brand or just a special type of fan. In other words, how do I know if a fan is "stealth". Do you have any good sources?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I am probably not going to have trouble with my power compacts in the basement, it rarely gets above 74 degrees, and I can easily pipe a fogger, etc. to fix the problem. Usually it stays around 72.

I'm at the point where I'm just gonna say "hell" and buy some tree frogs or let my plants run wild in it. The tank has perfect humidity and temp for treefrogs.....except I won't be able to see them during the day. :roll: 

I have noticed that many tanks with lots of water, such as my firebellied toad tank, don't seem to bothered as much by higher temps from the lights....plus, a tank like that doesn't need a ton of glass top, just screening to allow max air circulation. 

I am, I will admit, pretty pissed off at the moment. Almost tearful. I worked so hard on this vivarium....I spent a big sum on the lights, and now its biting me in the rear. What's so sad is that Paul has made the custom doors for my vivarium.  

Should I just let my tinc live where he is, or, at least redesign his 20 H? (Before one of the bulbs burned out, my 2 x 13 bright kit worked great). :?: 

I just wish those chillers didn't cost so much. It wouldn't make a difference fans or not because of radiant heat. The reason why we don't roast under full sun because of the light cycles and constant air moving from other parts of the world....vivariums aren't that big...


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I'd like to see how Darks!de, err, Luke gets his temp down as he has 3 x 96 w cf.

A little OT, but do Mexican Leaf Frogs, Pachymedusa dacnicolor require UV radiation? I have a glass top, so I don't think it will do much to use my Desert Sun 7% UVB. 

Its either that, red eyed treefrogs, or just plants.... 

Got any ideas folks what to do?


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

Mexican Leaf frogs are cool. Do you know anyone who has them right now? They seem to get imported only once a year and sell out fast. Red Eyes are plentiful right now, you can get import adults cheap and breed them now. I actually got lucky and wound up with soem pretty bold ones that I bought as CB sub-adults. One is usually up and hopping by 8 PM. Another possibily of a frog that can take the het is Waxy Monkey frogs. derek could tell you more about them than I can since i have never kept them. You can get CB babies or WC adults which are being imported right now.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2005)

I came across the stealth fans from the computer modding community. I tend to buy all my computer parts from http://www.newegg.com or microcenter. Both places carry the stealth fans. 

Vantec makes the stealth fans i know of. Im sure there are others. 

As i learned the bigger the fan the quieter it will be. It will also push a ton more air. I switched from 6 40mm fans to 1 120mm fan. 

Here are a few links:
http://www.newegg.com
http://www.zipzoomfly.com


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Before you buy anything labeled stealth do some research and look at the dB output which is what will really tell you what is going on with the noise. There is no "stelath" rating, so for all you know you could be buying the same fan with some fancy packaging stamped "stealth" on it. Noise is logarithmic, so find a noise curve before you make a final decision if your not sure what range is best. The second thing to look at is CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air moved as that will tell you the efficiency of the fan.

This is a good intro:
http://www.neoseeker.com/Hardware/faqs/kb/3,19.html



> Depending on the manufacturer, the fan noise measurement may be so different that you can NOT rely on measurements supplied from a manufacturer to compare potential noise from products by different manufacturers. The only REAL way to know the difference is to set up a controlled environment to measure the fans. However... you can generally use the decibel measurements to compare fan noise of products from the SAME manufacturer. For instance if you already know that one fan from a manufacturer is rated at 36dB and the other fan is rated at 50dB then you can sort of estimate the relative noise of the coolers.


So, if noise is an issue for you, buyer beware, and find some reviews of the exact brand and part number online first! You are also using the fan outside of its designed environment, so you may get more noise from vibrations, etc. Option #2 is buy one of each, hook them up, and take the noisy fans back 

Marcos


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Sandfire Dragon Ranch captive breeds them. They also have cb waxies, tiger legs (hypos), green treefrogs, dumpies, etc.

They are sold out for now, only $25 for a young dacnicolor.

I will be adding them to my collection perhaps in the future. The tank is PERFECT for them, tall, spacious, and nice cork background with front opening doors. So perhaps its not a total loss. (my tinc grew up in his 20, and has called it home since).

Heather, it won't be long before I get my Xenopus and test my new plywood tank for bombina.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Alright boys. I've got an idea. Right now, I've set up my 20 gallon long tank with a 55 watt power compact about 5-6" above the top of the tank. It is open, mounted on a strip of wood like a hanging light.

I've got a digital timer, an ultrasonic humidifier, some PVC, and a tub stopper with a hole drilled in the center to allow my PVC through.

Now, should I just buy a screen top, or buy a glass top? Basically, I could buy some glass cut for me and lay/ silicone it to the front panel, and the panel over the lights for a shield.

The reason why I ask, and from seeing all those netherland designs, they ALL have some form of misting system/ fogger/ etc.

This didn't occur to me now, when my large 40 gallon vivarium still allows for the back of the tank for a misting system!

I DO have the same kind of design where there can be ventilation rising from the bottom, out through the top of the hood through convection.

The ONLY way I could do this, for where the tank is now, is a misting system. IF I can pipe it to multiple tanks, it would work efficiently. 

I have never purchased a misting system before. Are they cost effective? Should I just use my tank design now? I've only got one tinc, he'd be alone in a 40 gallon.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Cost effective??? 
How much is your time worth? I think mine is well worth the $$$ spent, But I also think my time is worth a lot 8). They take a lot of the hassle away from keeping humidity high by hand misting. I doubt I will ever set up another tank without it on a system. 

You said that you tank allows for a misting system in the back? You probably would want your nozzles near the front of the tank as you will probably aim them towards the back/background/plants. If its in the back it will aim at the front glass or will hit the back before it is really adding to the humidity. If you could add several nozzles as close to the front as possible aiming at a 45 degree angle back it will do the job nicely.


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