# Leucomelas activity levels



## amolerane (Mar 15, 2020)

Good day everyone! 

I have done some searching but can't find much that describes the activity levels of leucomelas and am hoping to learn a bit from others' observations. Mine are approaching 9 months now and 4 weeks in my vivarium and they seem to be as active as my cats, i.e. not very: lots of sleeping/inactivity. But both are hunters fed by a human. 

They are very late risers and also go to bed very early. I currently see two sleeping at the top of the tank; one in a cork bark crack and one in a bromeliad. Two sleep in sensofino nut shells on the floor and one sleeps under a guava leaf against the front of the glass. So I know if they are sleeping/immobile and not under the leaves, which is where I assume them to be if they are not in their sleeping spots and not visible. They are looking very healthy but only seem to spend a few hours out and about each day. 

I was wondering if this sleeping late and going to bed early is normal behaviour or if it could be indicative of something else, such as too much food or the presence of a UV light above Exo Terra mesh. They don't respond to feeding time (if out and about, they still hide when I open the door). There are very healthy springtail and dwarf white isopod populations in the vivarium. I feed FF 3or 4 times a week, always dusted with Dendrocare. Shared experiences are greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

A picture of the tank with details about temperature and humidity might be helpful. As would a description of your misting routine and ventilation levels. Also, under what circumstances are you observing them? Is the tank in your office or something where you have eyes on for 8 hours every day? Or are these your observations when you check on them every once in a while? And you said you have a UV lamp over the screen top? How much screen? How much UV? 

Speaking generally, herps seem to laze about unless they are seeking a mate, defending territory, hunting, or adjusting for thermoregulation. And it's not an uncommon frustration to have beautiful and perhaps rare and expensive dart frogs that we can only assume are still the vivarium because we haven't seen them for weeks on end.


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## amolerane (Mar 15, 2020)

Temp is stable at 20C-24C (68F-75F) and humidity is 80% in the day up to 100% at night. Lights run 08:00 to 20:00 at this time of year. It is an Exo Terra with passive ventilation (back two panels are sealed off, front two are under the cap) plus fans that run on timers for a few minutes, interspersed across the day. I mist every 8 hours for 8 seconds to retain this humidity (08h00, 16h00, 00h00). The 25W Exo Terra lamp for UV was above the standard Exo Terra mesh and on a timer with an Exo Terra daylight lamp for 12h a day. The vivarium is in the hobby room, we walk by a few times a day to look at them and see how they are doing- we are at home quite a bit lately. This is done slowly and cautiously- no children. The back of the tank is quite shaded is and covered with a mixture of oak and tropical leaves I got from a German supplier. I wanted to replicate the tropical rain forest floors I have seen. The front of the tank has a mix of leaves and vegetation. The frogs use the hard landscaping to access the upper levels where two of them sleep.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_0FxU0lBGn/?igshid=1ys2op9cscxv


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

My leucomelas group is much less in cooler months. As it’s been warming they’ve dramatically increased their presence. 

I’m also confused about your description of your ventilation. The inside of your tank looks cool. Maybe more floor hides?


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## amolerane (Mar 15, 2020)

Ventilation: there are 2 fans that run on timers above the mesh. One points up and one points down. They run for a few minutes per hour from 10h00 to 18:00. This was recommended by the place where I bought the equipment.

Hides: The photo is not that great because the vivarium has quite a few hiding spots (the photo is cut off/the back is quite dark). I have a few sensofino & buddha nuts and about 50% of the floor is covered in 4-5cm of mixed leaves. The back half of the tank behind the lower bromeliad in the centre is quite bushy/secluded and has lots of little hiding places. They also have a small hut (just visible bottom right) but that is not used yet. They seem to like chilling under the leaves, in the bark cracks and in the bromeliads. I am very pleased to hear you think it looks cool!

I suspect overfeeding or the UVB lamp. Regarding temperature: would this maximum be too cool for them?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

They are still new to your viv, and kind of young, but here are a couple thoughts:

Frogs regulate their UV exposure by hiding from it when they've had enough. That might be a factor. I've had pretty negative behavior in geckos (going off food) when testing those spiral CFL UV lamps; I've also read of eye problems in tortoises related to those lamps. Personally, I won't use them. 

If they don't come out to eat, don't feed them for a week or ten days, and then see how hungry they act. My leucs knock me over, tie me up and take the FF cup out of my hand when I open their viv.

Mine (like most darts) are very responsive to misting. You might try not misting for a day or two (humidity down to 60% will be ok if it gets that low), then mist heavily and see if they come out to explore.

Dimming the lighting overall is also beneficial for getting frogs to be more bold, and may be worth experimenting with.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

amolerane said:


> I suspect overfeeding or the UVB lamp. Regarding temperature: would this maximum be too cool for them?


I was typing when you posted: yes, overfeeding and UVB lamps are possibilities.

My leucs see viv temps in the mid 60s F in the winter, and highs of about 80F in the summer; they stop breeding in the winter, but are still active enough.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

In the spirit of isolating variables, I would be very interested to see what happens if you totally shut off that UV bulb. 

After that, I'd start messing with food and misting, like @Socratic mentioned. 

From the Instagram pic, it doesn't _look _like there's a ton of leaf litter? Though you describe it differently. If each frog has its own favorite hiding spot, and there aren't many other spots to choose, I'd expect them to stay put.

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Anecdotally, frogs can also just act differently for reasons beyond our (my) understanding. I actually have 2 new groups of leucs in 2 different tanks. I wouldn't say one tank is much different than the other, but they hide like crazy in one and are out all the time in the other. 

This could also be the result of me opening the shipping container and letting the first active/bold frogs jump into viv 1, and the shy frogs ended up in viv 2 because they were left behind (hiding in the shipping container).


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

It should be noted that the eye problems associated with some of the higher indexed uvb lamp lots released during a period in the mid 2000s were because of a faulty phosphor coating blend used in manufacture.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Is OP sure that adhesives and other construction chem components had cured completely before animal introduction?


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## amolerane (Mar 15, 2020)

I am not concerned about the construction materials used or the time between construction and habitation. The tank stood open for a week after I completed the build and then 2 months once planted to allow the plants to establish. I only used materials from specialist stores.

The UV light was bought new this year so unlikely to have the phosphor coating issues. I disconnected it yesterday and see no reason to use it again following this discussion. 

Much of the floor looks like this. and has sensofino and buddha nuts for hiding. They love the sensofino. I keep a log to record which frog is seen where, so I have observed the frogs in different parts of the viv (only 2 are frequent climbers) and have seen them sleep in different spots too. 
They love the leaf litter Here you can see where one sometimes sleeps - its head is visible.

So plan of action:
Plan A: Discontinue UV and skip at least one feeding (maybe two)
Plan B: Withhold misting until it reaches the 60s and then start up again.

I really appreciate your advice based on your collective experiences. Thank you.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Frogs regulate their UV exposure by hiding from it when they've had enough. That might be a factor. I've had pretty negative behavior in geckos (going off food) when testing those spiral CFL UV lamps;


I think that this is because of sudden input in reception of a very basal photobiological stimulus. Rather than the animals going off feed because of harm.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Being _out in the light ie; plain sight_. We dont "see it" but an ambient receptive/perceptive change photobiologically happens with the inclusion of uvb, its present everywhere, even where the smallest Pumilio choose to perch and call. 

Its basal and complex that the acuity of exposure is not even on the grid of most keeper modality.

Its so difficult for me to discuss this, as a keeper who has has more interest and application of whole light wavelengths in captive animals, than anyone i have ever personally had contact with.

Nocturnal orientated gecko species, arboreal i have observed, straight out of the egg, i have observed not avoiding but strategically positioning their bodies in diurnal sleep so to as enable UVB contact on portion of body. 

I have observed other partial exposure behaviors with other animals. Across taxa i have observed an Anterior body portion presented in snakes, nocturnal geckos and also nocturnally orientated arboreal frogs.

There was a comment a while ago about a UVB tube having the capacity quote: _"To fry your frogs"_

This is untrue.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Correction; to correct anterior; actually last quadrant, posterior. Lapse of term. 

Rusty.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kmc said:


> I think that this is because of sudden input in reception of a very basal photobiological stimulus. Rather than the animals going off feed because of harm.


I've not experienced any animals responding negatively to many uses, both intermittently or persisting, of linear UVB lamps from Zoo Med and Arcadia (I currently use both brands on turtles and a chameleon, and have in the past on Rhacodactylus geckos and a green iguana. I have had at least two experiences with animals (crested and gargoyle geckos) responding negatively to spiral CFL UVB lamps (IIRC, those were ExoTerra brand lamps). 

I don't claim my animals were harmed by the lamps, per se, except insofar as their behavior at the time of the introduction of the lamps suddenly and distinctly changed for the worse. There could be other factors at play, of course, but the quality of German-made florescent lamps (Zoo Med and Arcadia, as well as all the better T5 aquarium lighting) is so much higher and more consistent than are Chinese-made lamps (all the CFLs, I believe), that I don't feel too out of line recommending against the UVB CFLs.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I prefer tubes, and think the coils have a marketing ease-of-use motive that influenced their introduction into the industry.

When i use a meter with coils, the reading bounces, but Ive not read more than what is categorized as crepuscular exposure within 6" of lamp.

That being said, using uvb inclusive lamps is inextricably tied to cover and gradient strategies.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Some of my post especially on the 9:14 reply was worded badly in some parts; appears specious and unclear. I wasnt being as pretentious as it appears, I did not give myself time to organize my thoughts. I am still learning myself and its a complicated topic.

There is a second wave narrative about the use of UVB per herp care on internet discussions. When its discussed it turns into a debate about D3.Not here, but just sayin.

For me, its an environmental addition in trying create a living experience that includes as many normal features as i can. I have observed interesting differences in behavior and development with animals that usually are not day cycled with it, canonized as it not being necessary. I used the word 'orientated' when mentioning nocturnalism for this reason, as, especially in the case of snakes, it isnt a strictly followed rule. 

I could go on, but its not the time or place, and I would do the subject better justice to suggest looking into Photobiology. The study of Neuroethology is another fascinating topic for the naturalistically inclined keeper interested in the mechanics of the behavior of his charges per input they receive from their immediate surroundings.

Plus its more information to make keeping even more interesting.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kmc said:


> For me, its an environmental addition in trying create a living experience that includes as many normal features as i can.


I agree, though only those 'normal' features that are also independently beneficial (the naturalistic fallacy is real, and dangerous ).

Here is a study that is a bit dated but has useful data on UVB measurements from hobby-grade lamps (measured at 30cm/ ~12 inches). 

www.academia.edu/download/56852523/Herpetomania3-4_04.pdf

At 30cm distance, most lamps emit 1-10 uW/cm2 UVB; this gives us a good idea of the general performance of these sorts of lamps.

How much UVB would darts 'normally' get, in the wild? Well, midday at La Selva in this study, open air measurements were 9-13 uW/cm2.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3520846/

Frogs, though (_O. pumilio_), called from sites that ranged from 0.22 - 0.66 uW/cm2 (this in itself is a very useful metric for determining how brightly to light vivs in general). This makes a frog 30cm (one foot) under a lamp in a viv receive from about two to fifty times the UVB that is 'normal'.

This same study determines that the feedback mechanism in _O. pumilio_ is driven by UVA as a proxy measurement for UV exposure. "If frogs are using UV-A levels as a visual indicator of UV-B or directly sensitive to UV-A, we predicted that artificially elevating UV-A on a calling frog would cause it to abandon its perch. We tested this by exposing a frog to an approaching light that was either off, emitting visible light or emitting UV-A light, and found that frogs abandoned their perches more frequently and at greater distances away from an approaching light (three times greater) when exposed to UV-A light compared to visible light." 

But according to the lamp measurements in the first study cited above (Lindgren, 2004), while typical solar radiation UVA/UVB ratio is about 28/1, none of the lamps exceed 5/1, so using UVA as a proxy will result in substantial overexposure to UVB. Relevantly to the present thread, it may also result in frogs hiding excessively, as lamps as typically used on vivs can provide levels of UVA higher than in the wild (extrapolating from the La Selva UVB measurements, UVA on frog perches should be 6-18 uW/cm2, which is exceeded by almost all the UVB providing lamps in the 2004 paper).


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I dont find the study conclusive that UVB should be verboten in captive situ, with frogs. Even small frogs. Even Darts. 

Im really _really_ not fond of "Ive blah blah and never had a problem" 

I dont use those statements, and are never convinced by them. 

Id like to discuss this again maybe its own thread sometime.


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## amolerane (Mar 15, 2020)

After four days without the UVB lamp, I have observed changes in the behaviour of three of the five frogs. These are new observations and may only be that.
2 of 5, the one I have thought to be the shyest, has been out and about on the lower raised branches and has been seen sitting in a small shallow pond multiple times on multiple days. It was previously always under the leaves of a bromeliad a few cm off the ground.
3 of 5 and 5 of 5 have climbed up to the third level of the vivarium (about 80% of the height) where I had never seen them before and are walking about on the branch up there. Until four days ago, they had only been seen on the ground, first and second levels (about 66% of the height). Multiple sightings at this height in four days, never seen there before. 1 of 5 has been seen up there too, but only today. 

I cannot tell if this is because they are more settled, but the timing and number of frogs with observed changes in behaviour is interesting.

Edited to add: I just heard calling today for the first time


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

amolerane said:


> After four days without the UVB lamp, I have observed changes in the behaviour of three of the five frogs. These are new observations and may only be that.
> 2 of 5, the one I have thought to be the shyest, has been out and about on the lower raised branches and has been seen sitting in a small shallow pond multiple times on multiple days. It was previously always under the leaves of a bromeliad a few cm off the ground.
> 3 of 5 and 5 of 5 have climbed up to the third level of the vivarium (about 80% of the height) where I had never seen them before and are walking about on the branch up there. Until four days ago, they had only been seen on the ground, first and second levels (about 66% of the height). Multiple sightings at this height in four days, never seen there before. 1 of 5 has been seen up there too, but only today.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the follow through AND update, OP. I hate when a discussion starts getting interesting and the OP totally ignores all advice and/or the thread dies. 

Obviously, we should be careful to draw conclusions from an anecdote, but I'm glad you're getting a positive result!

EDIT: Quoted OP since my comment started a new page of comments.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Excellent -- problem solved! That was pretty easy.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

This is how incomplete application of a subject prone to enormous variables in application, is fortified by ideology.


Limiting it to a single difference, as an example is my own work acclimating WC darts and mantellas reflected different behavior than captive bred animals that had never had contact with uvb lighting. Showing after a period of time the same activity that the WC frogs presented, including _basking for brief yet significant time frames. _

The observations I have had using uvb inclusive lighting, with some of the darts and mantellas I have raised and displayed, cared for etc, were versioned in other animals canonized to never receive UVB lighting in captivity.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kmc said:


> The observations I have had using uvb inclusive lighting, with some of the darts and mantellas I have raised and displayed, cared for etc, were versioned in other animals canonized to never receive UVB lighting in captivity.


Can you share brief details? Lamps/wattage/distance/photoperiod/etc?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Your question encompasses a large span of time and circumstances. 

Because of what Ive experienced on the internet I have learned to be content with my outcomes. 

I use a higher index of UVB than the "2.0" Ive seen commonly refered to use with non saurian or chelonian subjects. They emit less visible light. 

8 - 12 hr photoperiod. 

Distance and placement is case by case, and part of the set ups format. But exposure is enabled, not enforced. I like cavernous shelter. 

Perhaps someday I will organize my husbandry notes, which are on spiral notepads, not a cloud or a microsoft ap.

I have more notes on snakes than frogs. But have noted that hylids especially benefit from uvb.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I think that because of more precise advancements in supplementation, as far as preventing deficiencies are concerned, it is more reliable and graspable to use dietary forms of d3 supplementation for darts, than other means.

And I would never tell anyone to get a uvb lamp and stick it on the top of the tank. I would not say that even when describing its use for lizard care.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Thanks for clarifying, Kmc.

I think that when many of us say "Don't use UVB on dart frogs; dust their feeders with a quality supplement instead", that is a more-or-less-unconsciously simplified version of what I've quoted from you below. It is one of those husbandry topics, I think, that are included in the very useful "If you have to ask, then you shouldn't try it" category (which also includes motorcycle racing, catching bullets in your teeth, solo rockclimbing, etc; all possible, but not advisable if getting all your info from a couple forum posts). 



Kmc said:


> I think that because of more precise advancements in supplementation, as far as preventing deficiencies are concerned, it is more reliable and graspable to use dietary forms of d3 supplementation for darts, than other means.
> 
> And I would never tell anyone to get a uvb lamp and stick it on the top of the tank. I would not say that even when describing its use for lizard care.


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