# What the hell happened?



## Firefur (Feb 10, 2011)

3 out of five thumbnail darts died today our power cut from 8 this morning until 1pm so that the landlord could install some solar - panles as a procession my room mate and i put our frogs into a small kritter keeper on a bed of moist substrate and moss, we litterally designed this thing to stay moist for hours. it was still wet when i came home but two frogs were dead and the other just died the side of the enclosure is warm i think the fogger in the big tank malfunctioned and they got to hot or something? we've had them since chrismass without any problems what happened? has anyone seen this before? the frogs were not dried out or anything like that? but their is no fog in the tank? the humidity is fine? what the hell  the other two seem to be okay though they have been under the rain nozzle for a while?
can anyone give me an idea of what happened so i can fix it? help


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Is it possible that some chemicals were used in the installation of the solar panels?


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## Varno (Oct 19, 2004)

Very sorry for your loss ! It sounds like your humidity in the temporary enclosure was just fine, my best guess is that there was something in the temporary substrate ( what did you use?) or in the kritter keeper itself. I am very curious as to why you thought it necessary to move the frogs from their permanant home to a temporary viv for such a short period of time?? The very act of capturing and moving frogs can be stressful to the animals. Hope the remaining frogs do well!


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

If the sun hit the container through the window it could have easily gotten too hot, heat kills more quickly than cold does with darts.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

I agree with varno, why did you feel the need to move them?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I think Mark is right. If the enclosure feels warm to the touch to you, then it is probably well over the temperature that would kill the frogs. Moisture and correct temperature are both needed for the frogs to stay alive. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Varno said:


> The very act of capturing and moving frogs can be stressful to the animals. Hope the remaining frogs do well!


 
While this is stressful to the frogs, it shouldn't be stressful enough to kill them. People routinely look at stressors like this as a cause of death but the frogs are much hardier than people give them credit since if this was sufficient to kill the frogs, people would lose them by the bucket full during shipping, yet we don't see this occuring...... 

Ed


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## Varno (Oct 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> While this is stressful to the frogs, it shouldn't be stressful enough to kill them. People routinely look at stressors like this as a cause of death but the frogs are much hardier than people give them credit since if this was sufficient to kill the frogs, people would lose them by the bucket full during shipping, yet we don't see this occuring......
> 
> Ed


I concur that frogs are very resilient and I do give them their due credit and perhaps it was excessive heat that was the stressor that led to the frogs demise, it would be nice if the OP could provide some more details on the temporary viv they were placed in and the amount of heat it was subjected to. My main point is why the OP felt it necessary to to move the frogs for a few hours to another enclosure. If you do a risk/benefit analysis it doesn't seem worth it to me to subject the frogs to the stress and possible injury of a transfer (or excessive heat exposure) when the OP could have left them in the original viv for that short period of time.


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## night30 (Oct 21, 2009)

I have to agree with the group opinion on this. If the power was only going to be out for that short of a time period I would have left them in the original enclosure. Very sorry for your loss.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Varno said:


> If you do a risk/benefit analysis it doesn't seem worth it to me to subject the frogs to the stress and possible injury of a transfer (or excessive heat exposure) when the OP could have left them in the original viv for that short period of time.


Even excusing the ideas of stress and possible injury, I'm confused at what the benefit would be to moving them to a temporary enclosure was _at all_. I see the risk, I don't see the benefit.... I noticed the OP is using a fogger, but unless the vivarium is in one of those full-screeen exo terra enclosures, the three hours the power was out would have been unlikely to have allowed the permanent enclosure to dry out even if the top screen were entirely open and ventilated....

I can't help feeling like I'm missing something about this story. How are the frogs being kept when the power _is_ on?


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## Varno (Oct 19, 2004)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Even excusing the ideas of stress and possible injury, I'm confused at what the benefit would be to moving them to a temporary enclosure was _at all_. I see the risk, I don't see the benefit.... I noticed the OP is using a fogger, but unless the vivarium is in one of those full-screeen exo terra enclosures, the three hours the power was out would have been unlikely to have allowed the permanent enclosure to dry out even if the top screen were entirely open and ventilated....
> 
> I can't help feeling like I'm missing something about this story. How are the frogs being kept when the power _is_ on?


Jake,
My point exactly, all risk/no benefit based on the scenario given. I too am a bit confused and I wish the OP would elaborate on the perceived need to move the frogs, maybe there is more to this story. As Ed pointed out, darts are more sturdy than a lot of folks realize and sometimes the best move is to do nothing , this may have been one of those times. At any rate, the OP has lost some frogs and that is unfortunate.


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## Firefur (Feb 10, 2011)

We moved the frogs because three days prior to this we found one of our frogs out of the enclosure, sitting on the snake tank actually so we had hoped to find out how Pharaoh had gotten out in the first place, according to the thermometers everything was within the allowed range and the stupid fogger just started working again today. the second enclosure was small breedbox and according the the thermometer in it the temps were only one degree different from the temp in the big enclosure that it was sitting in, and humidity wise it was fine to. we made the decision to move them so we could find out if their was a small crack that the thumbnail was escaping from. also according to all of the information that we read on the species we gathered that moving them was in their best interest, go easy on me please these are the first Dart frogs we've owned. Also our apartment complex has the habit of telling us they are going to shut something off for an hour and turning them off for two days so we thought that putting them into a smaller breedbox would allow us to better regulate temperature and humidity. we thought that if they survived being shipped to another cost and bounced through back country roads to get here they would survive a few hours in a breeding box. We were very careful with them, and the breed box was new, i'd bought it (For the snake eggs) the day before .
on a related note, we originally made them a very large enclosure and my room mate is currently wondering if we should get them a 3rd frog since the research we did on them stated that they do best in groups of 3 or more?


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## Freeradical53 (Jan 25, 2008)

I would like to know what happened also. This is strange. An electric outage for even a couple of days except in cold weather wouldn't be enough to affect the frogs at this time of the year. Are you sure that you didn't injure them when you moved them? Thumbnails are so small...


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## Varno (Oct 19, 2004)

Firefur,
If I read your last message correctly, You placed the frogs in a kritter keeper and then placed the kritter keeper back into the original large viv because you were worried about the large viv being less than secure? The brief power outage wasn't the real reason you moved the frogs, then? In your orginal message you stated that you have had the frogs since last Christmas, is this the first time you noticed an escapee? The reason I ask is that thumbnails can be very quick and if you only noticed the one out the other day it is possible it got out during a time you had the viv open for feeding or maintenance and just didn't see it escape. The members of this forum are certainly not intending to be harsh on you, we're just trying to get as much information from you as possible so we can hazard a guess ( as you requested ) as to why the frogs died and prevent it from happening again to you or someone else reading this thread who may be contenplating doing something similar. At this time our best guesses have been excessive heat, some type of toxic material in your kritter keeper or the substrate in the keeper, or trauma from the move. It is also possible the frogs were under stress or in poor condition prior to the move from some unknown malady and the additional handling pushed them over the edge, how are the remaining frogs doing? As far as adding an additional frog, I would wait until you were sure the viv you are concerned about is indeed secure and that the remaining frogs are doing well.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

could have been something on you hand(s) as well.
frogs absorb things fairly easy and if you had anything toxic on your hand(s) they could have absorbed it.
I never really handle any amphibians due to this.
when I get my thumbs I will let them hop out into their quarantine container then let them hop into the viv. I don't think I will ever actually handle them.

what kind of moss and substrate did you use?
I would have used wet paper towels or sphagnum...nothing else.

did you moisten the kritter keeper with tap water or R/O, purified, or distilled water?
tap water is not 100% good for us let alone frogs lol.

what kind of thermometer and hygrometer did you use?
what did the temp read?
some of these gauges are really inaccurate, like if it was only reading 80degrees yet if it was really 85 or higher it could have been the heat. I have seen some temp gauges off by 5 or 10 degrees either way.

They may have gotten stressed from going from a large enclosure to such a small enclosure, what was the size of the kritter keeper?
Yeah they are shipped in small containers but usually separately. So them all being contained in a small kritter keeper may have stressed them out.
I would like to see pics of said viv and kritter keeper.

I know some plastics leech toxins but I don't think in your case it had a long enough time although if you didn't sanitize the kritter keeper and it had something in it that could have been the issue.
I don't care if they are brand new I will sanitize them before using.
you don't know who has been handling them and if anything spilled on them.
back to what I said about them absorbing stuff the water in the container could have mixed with something toxic and then gotten absorbed.

some of these are just guesses so I might be wrong at which could put PDFs at harm. Seems like fairly good educated guesses.
the better the details the better we all can root out the issue.


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## Firefur (Feb 10, 2011)

as far as moving them went our method of capture was to simply pour their favorite food into the kritterkeeper and wait until all five were inside before closing it. bedding put in was fresh aquarium gravel with a layer of exoterra plantation soil and terrarium moss on top of it, with a layer of water that had been conditioned with zoomed's reptisafe. we made it almost identical to the tank and it was moist, and it was a zoomed digital probe thermometer and an exoterra hydrometer/thermometer combo. the two temps read identically and humidity was at 85 both in the kritterkeeper and in the big tank. the only frog who was actually handled is thriving and so is his friend. we knew that the frog got out on his own because the way we feed is as non invasive as possible we have two places in the tank were we can slide in a vile of flies so that they pop out slowly on their own as little contact as possible. we restock the food every few days and there is always flies left in at least one of the mini cultures - the day we found him was the day after we stocked the food so no one had been in the terrarium. also we live very north and the high temp here is currently about 50 -60 during the day and drops further at night. also yes this was the first time anyone has escaped
and i know you guys are tying to help i'm just really scared for my frogs
the frogs were shipped to us in a small deli cup.
the tank is 18x18x24
the kritterkeeper breedbox thing was 7x6x9


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## Firefur (Feb 10, 2011)

it just occurred to me what ever happened it killed my Spanish moss and a big chunk of the terrarium moss to


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I am finding it hard to believe you coaxed all 5 into this container at once through feeding the favorite food. FF's run away, and disperse quickly... The frogs chase them..... Do you have pics of this innovative viv? It would make your story more believable to me... Not that it should matter though. 85F is high, but not for a short period. These frogs under what you described as the conditions should have survived the short ordeal, even when semi cramped.

I'd like pics if you cold, thanks!

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The temperature in your viv drops to below 50 every night?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I don't think he meant those are the temps in the tank, and the humidity was 85 not the temp.

What type of frogs were these? I know you say "thumbnails" but there are a lot of frogs that are considered thumbnails. Do you have pictures of the tank? Did you disinfect everything that went into the temporary enclosure and if so, how?


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Firefur said:


> as far as moving them went our method of capture was to simply pour their favorite food into the kritterkeeper and wait until all five were inside before closing it. bedding put in was fresh aquarium gravel with a layer of exoterra plantation soil and terrarium moss on top of it, with a layer of water that had been conditioned with zoomed's reptisafe. we made it almost identical to the tank and it was moist, and it was a zoomed digital probe thermometer and an exoterra hydrometer/thermometer combo. the two temps read identically and humidity was at 85 both in the kritterkeeper and in the big tank. the only frog who was actually handled is thriving and so is his friend. we knew that the frog got out on his own because the way we feed is as non invasive as possible we have two places in the tank were we can slide in a vile of flies so that they pop out slowly on their own as little contact as possible. we restock the food every few days and there is always flies left in at least one of the mini cultures - the day we found him was the day after we stocked the food so no one had been in the terrarium. also we live very north and the high temp here is currently about 50 -60 during the day and drops further at night. also yes this was the first time anyone has escaped
> and i know you guys are tying to help i'm just really scared for my frogs
> the frogs were shipped to us in a small deli cup.
> the tank is 18x18x24
> the kritterkeeper breedbox thing was 7x6x9


that kritter keeper is pretty small for 5 frogs.
Since they would be climbing all over each other.
what was the temps of the tank and kritter keeper whenever you did this?

you mentioned 50-60 but idk if you mean the temperature in your living area or their's.
50-60 is low for PDFs and it should be between 70-80.
My viv is currently at 75.

I think it was either your temps or you didn't wash your hands with good antibacterial soap before handling them.
It's really hard to believe that they all just jumped in there.
ReptiSafe isn't 100% safe either. I thought it was as well but was told other wise and I haven't used it since.
The safest way is to get water that has been through an R/O filter or steam distillation.

all that gravel, substrate, and moss wasn't necessary for them tho.
Just some moist paper towels or some sphagnum will do.
Was the gravel washed well and was it used at any point for fish or any other kind of animal?


we aren't trying to call you a liar about anything. 
We all know how they behave and how they act and I have sat here for hours watching vids on them and I have seen how hard it is to get a group all in the same area. It rarely happens. So that is just kinda hard to believe.
So if there is anything you see you might have done wrong and you're keeping it from us don't worry we won't scold you or anything we just wanna make sure it doesn't happen again.
We are here to help you not scold you or anything


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## Firefur (Feb 10, 2011)

they are Ranitomeya ventrimaculatus "Rodyll" dart frogs, and they've always congregated in one area once every three days, that how we now it's time to change their little feeding tubes. it took four hours of waiting but they were all in there. 85 was humidity not temp. temp in the tank was 73. ambient temperature of the house is about 50 right now. i'll get you pictures as soon as i can.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Firefur said:


> they are Ranitomeya ventrimaculatus "Rodyll" dart frogs, and they've always congregated in one area once every three days, that how we now it's time to change their little feeding tubes. it took four hours of waiting but they were all in there. 85 was humidity not temp. temp in the tank was 73. ambient temperature of the house is about 50 right now. i'll get you pictures as soon as i can.


well the only thing I can think of then is cross contamination of something to the frogs and that container being way too small and like one member said they could have been sick and the stress push them over the edge.

did you make sure the stuff you used in the kritter keeper was new and the gravel was washed well? also did you sanitize the kritter keeper?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

A few things.

18x18x24 seems large at first glance, but in reality it's not that big. I would not be keeping five dart frogs in that size tank....

Second, don't rule out frogs escaping during feeding so quickly. You would be surprised at how sneaky these frogs can be. I take all the precautions I can, but you'd be surprised how many escapees I've had in my time. The danger worsens when you take a stance of the impossibility of escapees during feeding because it makes you far less observant.

As has been mentioned, many thermometers and hydrometers are not all that accurate. If ambient temperature in your home is 50 degrees I'd be pretty concerned about my tank temperatures.

Finally, it's true that you got your frogs shipped in small deli cups over night. However, the circumstances were quite different. Shippers use all sorts of gels and heat sinks to make sure of optimal temperatures. The issue of using a critter-keeper is that it's an extremely small enclosure without all the precautions. Simple physics shows that the smaller the container, the more fluxuation you're going to have (temperature and humidity). If, as Mark Pulawski mentioned, the sun got through the window and hit your critter-keeper, the temperature would rise in that way faster than the larger vivarium. Also, the smaller enclosure would be able to cool very quickly so when you came home it would seem like everything is alright. For this reason, if ever I'm concerned about temperature, I use a thermometer with a short memory (it will show me the highest and lowest temperature reached in the past 24 hours).

Also, keep in mind what Ed said:



Firefur said:


> the side of the enclosure is warm


If the enclosure it warm to the touch, it's probably too warm for the frogs (proper dart frog temperature should feel more or less neutral to the touch).


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## Firefur (Feb 10, 2011)

the only thing i didn't wash was the kritterkeeper itself. everything else was washed ... i think i may have soaked the plantation soil brick in tap water though. would that cause the death of three frogs? and could it have affected things outside of the kritter keeper?
i'll get you the pictures as soon as possible. it may be a few days before i can get back to the library to post them though. also a lot of our terrarium moss just died so we are going to replace it. do you want the pictures before or after i handle the dead moss?
also if Reptisafe is not safe what would you use? and please no short hand i dont understand it yet.


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## Varno (Oct 19, 2004)

Firefur,
I notice that you said you fed your frogs through a "mini culture" that you place in the tank every few days, how do you supplement the frogs or do you supplement at all and if so how often? I see your concerns about soaking the fiber brick in tap water, I never use tap in any way with my frogs ( I use distilled for misting and spring water for pretty much everything else ), but I doubt the small amouts of chlorine or chloramines in the fiber would have caused the deaths of the frogs and vegetation in such a short time. I think alot of folks have put forth some good guesses as to what may have caused your frog's deaths, but if you now are noticing plants/moss dying in an established viv I believe that there was a significant insult to the viv, probably in the form of excessive heat. You mentioned a fogger earlier as a possible culprit for heat, might there be any other heat source? I also think that it wouldn't be too difficult in that size of viv to find any possible means of egress for a frog, if you can't find such a place on your viv then Jake's (SmackoftheGods) explanation is probably correct:

"Second, don't rule out frogs escaping during feeding so quickly. You would be surprised at how sneaky these frogs can be. I take all the precautions I can, but you'd be surprised how many escapees I've had in my time. The danger worsens when you take a stance of the impossibility of escapees during feeding because it makes you far less observant."

So in a nutshell; remove anything away from the viv that may have caused excessive heat, use distilled and/or spring water (or treated tap) for hydrating peat or coco bricks in the future, find any possible means of escape from your viv and seal them properly, supplement your frogs if you have not been doing so, and don't move frogs if you don't need to. Best of luck!


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Firefur said:


> the only thing i didn't wash was the kritterkeeper itself. everything else was washed ... i think i may have soaked the plantation soil brick in tap water though. would that cause the death of three frogs? and could it have affected things outside of the kritter keeper?
> i'll get you the pictures as soon as possible. it may be a few days before i can get back to the library to post them though. also a lot of our terrarium moss just died so we are going to replace it. do you want the pictures before or after i handle the dead moss?
> also if Reptisafe is not safe what would you use? and please no short hand i dont understand it yet.


yeah it could have been something on the kritter keeper.
I have bought some and seen residues on the plastic but most people think...well it's new so it must be safe....nope.
I used distilled water only. It is boiled and the steam is collected and bottled and the steam is 100% water with no minerals or anything.
i hope to get a R/O filter one day so i won't have to pay for baottled water anymore  hopefully one day i will get a water distiller 
I've never used plantation soil but from the looks of it, it is pretty much the cocofiber substrate with maybe some peat in it. So I don't see an issue with this.

what type of moss is this that you are mentioning


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Working backwards... 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> yeah it could have been something on the kritter keeper.
> I have bought some and seen residues on the plastic but most people think...well it's new so it must be safe....nope.


I have significant doubts towards this being a problem... If your going to claim it was some residue on the hard plastic kritter keeper (a different brand for pal pens), I'd be very interested in hearing as to what it probably was.... 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I used distilled water only. It is boiled and the steam is collected and bottled and the steam is 100% water with no minerals or anything.


Tap water should have been fine to use. If the tap water is so out of whack that it will harm the frogs overnight, then it wouldn't be safe to drink. This is a myth that has been floating around forever and consistently perpetuated by blind repetition. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Firefur said:


> the only thing i didn't wash was the kritterkeeper itself. everything else was washed ... i think i may have soaked the plantation soil brick in tap water though. would that cause the death of three frogs?
> .


No. It wouldn't have killed the frogs. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> that kritter keeper is pretty small for 5 frogs.
> Since they would be climbing all over each other.


This would not have killed the frogs in that short period of time. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I think it was either your temps or you didn't wash your hands with good antibacterial soap before handling them.


Unless his hands were contanimated with a pesticide/herbicide, not washing his hands has absolutely nothing to do with deaths that occur that rapidly. Using or not using a antibacterial soap is moot... 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> all that gravel, substrate, and moss wasn't necessary for them tho.
> Just some moist paper towels or some sphagnum will do.
> Was the gravel washed well and was it used at any point for fish or any other kind of animal?


Not washing the gravel etc has nothing to do with deaths that occur that rapidly unless they were sprayed with pesticides/herbicides and if that was the case all of the frogs would have died or shown severe neurological issues. 

It would help if people stuck to things that can actually kill a frogs in that period of time.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Firefur said:


> has the habit of telling us they are going to shut something off for an hour and turning them off for two days *so we thought that putting them into a smaller breedbox would allow us to better regulate temperature and humidity. we thought that if they* survived being shipped to another cost and bounced through back country roads to get here they would survive a few hours in a breeding box. We were very careful with them, *and the breed box was new, i'd bought it (For the snake eggs) the day before .*


If I understand you here, you placed them into an incubator. What kind of incubator did you use? 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> This would not have killed the frogs in that short period of time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nice way to single me out 
correct everyone else?

yes it is required that you wash gravel and sift it to get rid of dust and smaller particles. even says so on the bag. impactation?

like one member said they could have been sick then when cramped together it could have pushed them over the edge...this is resonable.
I had a frog with red leg and just cleaning his QT container he freaked out and jumped around then just died. He was at the end of the road tho.
Many chemicals I'm sure can be harmful other than just pesticides and herbacides

and these are the types of containers she is talking about not and incubator..








Faunarium
PT2250	180 x 110 x 125 mm	7” x 4” x 5”
PT2255	230 x 155 x 170 mm	9” x 6” x 6 1/2”
PT2260	300 x 195 x 205 mm	12” x 7 1/2” x 8”
PT2265	370 x 220 x 250 mm	14 1/2” x 8 1/2” x 10”
PT2300	360 x 210 x 160 mm	14” x 8” x 6”
PT2310	460 x 300 x 170 mm	18” x 12” x 6 1/2”

Exo Terra : 
Faunarium / All-Purpose Terrarium 

the smallest ones all the way on top left is about the size she used which is WAY too small.
PT2250	180 x 110 x 125 mm	7” x 4” x 5”
PT2255	230 x 155 x 170 mm	9” x 6” x 6 1/2”


Firefur said:


> as far as moving them went our method of capture was to simply pour their favorite food into the kritterkeeper and wait until all five were inside before closing it. bedding put in was fresh aquarium gravel with a layer of exoterra plantation soil and terrarium moss on top of it, with a layer of water that had been conditioned with zoomed's reptisafe. we made it almost identical to the tank and it was moist, and it was a zoomed digital probe thermometer and an exoterra hydrometer/thermometer combo. the two temps read identically and humidity was at 85 both in the kritterkeeper and in the big tank. the only frog who was actually handled is thriving and so is his friend. we knew that the frog got out on his own because the way we feed is as non invasive as possible we have two places in the tank were we can slide in a vile of flies so that they pop out slowly on their own as little contact as possible. we restock the food every few days and there is always flies left in at least one of the mini cultures - the day we found him was the day after we stocked the food so no one had been in the terrarium. also we live very north and the high temp here is currently about 50 -60 during the day and drops further at night. also yes this was the first time anyone has escaped
> and i know you guys are tying to help i'm just really scared for my frogs
> the frogs were shipped to us in a small deli cup.
> the tank is 18x18x24
> *the kritterkeeper breedbox thing was 7x6x9*



well to me that seems way too small for 5 thumbnails for any period of time


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## Firefur (Feb 10, 2011)

we asked the breeder about the 18x18x24 and were told that that was fine for them as they are only 20mm at full growth but i will bow to the experiences of others on that one. 
the only sources of heat in their tank are the fogger and the uva/uvb tropical lights on the tank itself. they tank is in a room with no windows the only thing i could think of that would risk heat contamination is the snake's heatlamp on the other table but how would that pose a problem now?
i will take escape into consideration thanks for all of the advice.
as for suppliments when i spoke with the people at a petstore we trust they didn't say anything about suppliments and i was under the impression that they only needed them if they had no source of uva uvb? is this wrong? if so what type of suppliments should i get?
would adding the vitamins to the fly medium get the vitamins into the flys? or would i have to dust them like i do with crickets for the bearded dragon?
do you think that the tank would be okay for 3 of the little guys as i was told that this was the minimum for these little ones to be happy and healthy? the 2 we have seem a lot more skittish. is it even safe to introduce an entirely new frog?
also we were thinking of adding a small pump and some fish tank air-hose to create a rain system that would go off 3 or 4 times a day to create an environment closer to nature. 
does anyone with more experience then me see any benefits or problems with this?
the moss is just standard issue terrarium moss/frog moss, the living kind you can buy at a petstore, and the Spanish moss is a hanging vine like moss
again thanks for all the help.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Firefur said:


> we asked the breeder about the 18x18x24 and were told that that was fine for them as they are only 20mm at full growth but i will bow to the experiences of others on that one.
> the only sources of heat in their tank are the fogger and the uva/uvb tropical lights on the tank itself. they tank is in a room with no windows the only thing i could think of that would risk heat contamination is the snake's heatlamp on the other table but how would that pose a problem now?
> i will take escape into consideration thanks for all of the advice.
> as for suppliments when i spoke with the people at a petstore we trust they didn't say anything about suppliments and i was under the impression that they only needed them if they had no source of uva uvb? is this wrong? if so what type of suppliments should i get?
> ...


btw is the fogger inside the tank?
the fogger isn't a heat source.
What is you lighting? we need to see pics of your entire setup lol
Spanish moss is a huge no....it drys and is sharp and can cut the frogs.
So you haven't been supplementing your frogs?....
um you have to supplement.
You use calcium with D3 and a vitamin supplement.
I use RepCal Calcium with V.I.T. D3 and then use RepCal Herptivite.
Well I used this with my dragon and other herps since I don't have PDFs yet.
here is a good vid





and you need to check out this section...
Food & Feeding - Dendroboard


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> yes it is required that you wash gravel and sift it to get rid of dust and smaller particles. even says so on the bag. impactation?


You mean all of the particles that are the same size as those found in ABG mixes or clay substrates? Can you elaborate on why those small particles in the gravel create a greater risk of impaction than the particles found in ABG mix? 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> like one member said they could have been sick then when cramped together it could have pushed them over the edge...this is resonable.


Really? Based on what evidence? 




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I had a frog with red leg and just cleaning his QT container he freaked out and jumped around then just died. He was at the end of the road tho.


Interesting.. you do know that red leg is a symptom and not a disease? So did the frog die from a minor allergic reaction? That causes a frog to have red legs.. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Many chemicals I'm sure can be harmful other than just pesticides and herbacides


Yes, lots of chemicals are harmful... the but they do not cause the death of the majority of the animals while leaving some alive within a few hours time.. that indicates a pretty major lethality and given the small size of the enclosure, it is not only incrediably unlikely but unhelpful to make the suggestion particularly when your ignorant of potential causes. 

As I stated, it would be much more productive to focus on things that would kill some but not all of the frogs in the short time period.... You've engaged in useless speculations which only serve to cloud the issue. 




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> well to me that seems way too small for 5 thumbnails for any period of time


Are you going to use that idealogy when you have animals shipped to you or ship animals or pick them up from someone?

If your going to make comments, at least try to make them useful instead of trying to run up your post count. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Firefur said:


> we asked the breeder about the 18x18x24 and were told that that was fine for them as they are only 20mm at full growth but i will bow to the experiences of others on that one.
> the only sources of heat in their tank are the fogger and the uva/uvb tropical lights on the tank itself.


Some of the earlier models of those incage ultrasonic humidifiers can raise the temperature in a small enclosure particularly if it doesn't have any air exchange with the outside. 



Firefur said:


> as for suppliments when i spoke with the people at a petstore we trust they didn't say anything about suppliments and i was under the impression that they only needed them if they had no source of uva uvb? is this wrong? if so what type of suppliments should i get?


If the uvb light has to pass through window or aquarium glass (or plastic), then the frogs are not getting any benefit from the light. UVA light doesn't enable the frogs to convert provitamin D to D3 so whether or not they have it doesn't change the requirement for supplements. 



Firefur said:


> would adding the vitamins to the fly medium get the vitamins into the flys? or would i have to dust them like i do with crickets for the bearded dragon?


The flies do not uptake and store vitamin D3 or vitamin A (other than a small bit in the eyes), so adding it to the media doesn't work. You need to dust the flies just like you do for the bearded dragon. Otherwise they will develop deficiencies which can be a problem. Since you weren't dusting thier food, how long did you keep the bodies around before discarding them? If they were deficient enough in D3 and/or calcium, the frogs when stressed can have a seizure which causes them to rigidly stretch thier legs out and look dead. Depending on the level of deficiency, recovery can be within a couple of minutes from the stimulation stopping or it can last longer. 



Firefur said:


> do you think that the tank would be okay for 3 of the little guys as i was told that this was the minimum for these little ones to be happy and healthy? the 2 we have seem a lot more skittish. is it even safe to introduce an entirely new frog?


There are different opinions on acceptable density when housing the frogs in an enclosure with some advocating for larger less dense enclosures and some people being okay with higher densities or smaller enclosures. If you get them established and provide them with sites to rear tadpoles, you'll end up with a small colony of them in thier in not time. 




Firefur said:


> also we were thinking of adding a small pump and some fish tank air-hose to create a rain system that would go off 3 or 4 times a day to create an environment closer to nature.


I'm not sure that rain showers three or four times a day are closer to a natural enviroment. One of the big things you can do to encourage a more natural enviroment is to make sure that the air isn't stagnent all of the time.. there are a lot of things much more likely to provide a more natural enviroment. If you read through the build threads, you'll see a lot of them. 



Firefur said:


> the moss is just standard issue terrarium moss/frog moss, the living kind you can buy at a petstore, and the Spanish moss is a hanging vine like moss
> again thanks for all the help.


Ditch the moss and use leaf litter. It is much more natural and better for the frogs. Just search leaf litter, you'll hit a lot of threads on it (if you can't gather your own, you can purchase it from a number of people here on the forum as well as some of the sponsors). 

If the spanish moss is dead, ditch it as well since the outer covering decays leaving a black wiry core which has been documented in causing problems for the frogs. While live sphagnum moss needs moisture and humidity it also needs air circulation and a chance to dry out. You'll be better off just ditching it and looking for something else that will grow or look better. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

my answers are in bold



Ed said:


> You mean all of the particles that are the same size as those found in ABG mixes or clay substrates? Can you elaborate on why those small particles in the gravel create a greater risk of impaction than the particles found in ABG mix?
> *true i see your point there but it says on the bag itself it is best to wash the gravel to get rid of any particles*
> 
> 
> ...



We are suppose to be trying to help this person understand where they went wrong and it is evident the proper research wasn't done before they got the frogs.
So why sit here picking fights?
I'm done with the childishness Ed....DONE!!!!
I'm not indulging into your immaturity any longer Ed.
I hate drama and gossip and I think you're a bit too old for it as well.
Do not address me any longer and I will do the same for you.
I don't need your help if you are gonna run around singling me out and picking fights.


Firefur,
I apologize for this being on your thread like this and what he should have done was come to me in a PM.
It was bound to happen soon enough sorry it had to be your thread, I truely am.
I really hope someone helps you figure out where you went wrong and i'm not trying to sound like a jerk but if you didn't even do enough research to know that you need to dust your flies then you should have never got the frogs in the first place.
I have been here for about a year and I just built my first PDF viv and I am still waiting to get frogs....partly cause I am waiting for permission from my step-mum to be able to bring frogs into the house. I could barely get her to let me bring my goldfish. Also partly because I want to rack up cultures for my frogs and tackle microfauna and make sure I can provide the food source they need....making sure I'm am 100% set to go before I get them.
I know a lot about these little guys so far and I have been dealing with herps for a very long time and where you probably went went wrong is where I went wrong and that's listening to pet store employees. I'm not saying this is the case but it's just a guess and I will do my research before I listen to another pet store employee or owner.
I addressed you as "they" and "them" since idk if you are male or female so forgive me if that irritated you lol
I wish you the best of luck with your future frogging and I hope you get the PDF knowledge you need so this does not happen again.
I'm really not trying to be a jerk but I am really just an honest person.
So if you want me to disperse I will. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or anything I just want to make sure you learn the right ways so that the frogs will be happy and you can have them for a long time


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> So why sit here picking fights?
> I'm done with the childishness Ed....DONE!!!!
> I'm not indulging into your immaturity any longer Ed.
> I hate drama and gossip and I think you're a bit too old for it as well.


I don't see what Ed is doing as picking fights. Rather, it seems that your posts in this thread (while I understand trying to be helpful) are shots in the dark based coupled with an arbitrary thought process, likely based on hearsay. They are incongruent with reality. These ideas must be disspelled for two reasons: so Firefur doesn't try to correct something that clearly isn't wrong, and so that anyone with a similar problem who runs across this thread doesn't try to fix something that clearly isn't wrong. I don't see this as drama or gossip, but rather a scientist doing his job. If you want to feel like he's personally attacking you... well, that's your choice. But, like you, I'm really not trying to be a jerk, I am really just an honest person, if you don't know what you're talking about, you shouldn't post suggestions. And if you do post suggestions that are wrong, you shouldn't feel personally offended when someone who knows more than you tells you you're wrong.

Firefur, it seems that there are a number of husbandry issues going on here. However, it's late and I'm feeling a little too muddled to sort through all the information (and misinformation) being discussed here in this thread. I would like to extend an invitation to you. If you have a question, now or in the future, and you don't want to post it in a public forum, please feel free to PM me before going to a pet store. Pet stores (even good ones that consumers feel they can trust) can dispense a lot of misinformation. I would be happy to answer your husbandry questions in detail, I just really don't want to sift through what's important, and what's already been answered in this thread right now :/

As for what happened to your frogs, I do suspect it's an environmental factor. I'm personally inclined to lean toward an overheating issue (although I admit that I find it strange that this would only kill three of your frogs) simply because I haven't seen a better idea.... I'd imagine it would have to get very hot to kill off the moss, but my understanding (which may be wrong) is that heat can kill delicate mosses pretty quickly.... I will be following this thread, but I believe I've extended the limits of my knowledge without more detail into the incident. Good luck.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm not going to bother to parse your entire response for errors but they are still there. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I had a frog with red leg and just cleaning his QT container he freaked out and jumped around then just died. He was at the end of the road tho.





DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I know what Red Leg is and did I call it a "disease"... um no! I do my research and Idk what was wrong with it, I'm no vet and I was giving him tetracycline baths. I tried to do everything I couldfor the frog and 2 others got sick and I got them well again


In the first quote, you made a diagnosis as to the cause of death of the frog. If you weren't claiming it was a disease process then how did the frog die from it? A frog doesn't die from a minor allergic irritation... You then confirm that you considered this to be a disease by treating the other frogs with tetracycline. 
You state your not a vet but then go on to treat the frogs with an antibiotic that is known to be a poor choice for bacterial infections unless sensitivity cultures are done on the bacteria (and it doesn't treat parasites or viral infections)...... 

You claim that I'm picking on you, I'm not. I'm correcting the bad information that you are putting into the thread. You are the person who has contributed the most unhelpful information in this thread. 

With respect to the incubator question.. I asked for clairification to make sure I was clear on the facts instead of jumping in with theories. I asked because of the statement that it was purchased for snake eggs (which is an implication for an incubator). This is a far cry from spewing random dogmatic theories. It is not the big error or big failure that you are claiming it was...... 


Ed


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## froggie too (Nov 6, 2011)

I was thinking, somewhere I read not to have an air freshener in a room with frogs. Did you have a plug-in air freshener in the room you moved them to?


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

My condolences... I would assume the cause of death was overheating. As stated previously, if the container felt warm to to the touch, it was probably too hot for the frogs to handle. Generally when something feels warm to the touch, unless you have been exposed to really low temperatures (its all relative to the temperature you were exposed to and what the difference is in temperature but think of running cold tap water over your hands after handling snow or ice and how it seems warm or hot), it is usually around or slightly above core body temperature, which being approx 97 degrees is pretty hot for a small frog. One of the reasons why a thermometer is so important in this hobby, since what may seem comfortably or harmlessly warm to us could be a death trap to an exothermic animal trapped in an enclosure with no temperature gradient... 

I'm quite happy that your other frogs survived. I wonder how long the temperature spiked for or what the temperature gradient was for them to survive.

I learned this lesson as a kid the hard way. Left my two new Litoria Peronii in the car to run into a store for five or ten minutes. It was 90 degrees outside. Came back to the car, Mum unlocked it, and found my poor froggies had cooked... 

Now I'm really careful with airflow, ventilation, sunlight and CONSTANTLY check temps with my temp gun...


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Of course I could be completely wrong, which I am used to, being married  but its the first place my mind went to...


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## Firefur (Feb 10, 2011)

Ed
:quote: If they were deficient enough in D3 and/or calcium, the frogs when stressed can have a seizure which causes them to rigidly stretch thier legs out and look dead. Depending on the level of deficiency, recovery can be within a couple of minutes from the stimulation stopping or it can last longer. :Quote:
i was un aware of this however i was hoping that something of the like had happened and they were only stunned so i kept the bodies in the hospital tank for 24hrs before we buried them. please tell me their was not a chance of them being alive at the time.
:quote: Ditch the moss and use leaf litter. It is much more natural and better for the frogs. Just search leaf litter, you'll hit a lot of threads on it (if you can't gather your own, you can purchase it from a number of people here on the forum as well as some of the sponsors).:quote: 
are their specific types of leaves i should avoid? i live in the middle of a redwood forest but we do have sorrel and several smaller Deciduous verities and other types of Conifers. if i do gather them myself, how long and how hot should i bake them to sanitize? I've heard anywhere from 250 to 300 are good base temps but that was for Aluminum-foil wrapped wood. 

Dragonspirit
:quote:btw is the fogger inside the tank?
the fogger isn't a heat source.
What is you lighting? we need to see pics of your entire setup lol
Spanish moss is a huge no....it drys and is sharp and can cut the frogs.
So you haven't been supplementing your frogs?....
um you have to supplement.
You use calcium with D3 and a vitamin supplement.
I use RepCal Calcium with V.I.T. D3 and then use RepCal Herptivite.
Well I used this with my dragon and other herps since I don't have PDFs yet.:quote:
thanks for the vid.
the fogger is in the tank it is an exotera mini fogger which puts up a small jet of hot water and utilizes ultrasonic vibrations to vaporize it. for this reason it is in the back corner of the tank by the water filter and covered by a small brick so that the fog pours out of the same opening as the water coming from the filter, forming a small waterfall that goes into a small "pond" the brick is large enough that it doesn't get hot and their is a large piece of petstore-drift wood on top of that to prevent the frogs from touching that just in case. so i do count it as a heat source because it does raise the temperature of the water and the ambient temperature in that corner of the tank.
a 13watt exo terra uv 5.0 bulb and an identical 24 watt that span the back of the hood, it keeps the tank as 71-74 during the winter and the temp rises to a toasty 75-78 in the summer. the back corner where the fogger is is about a degree or to hotter depending on how long the fogger has been on. 
also i feel compelled to say and i do not mean to be confrontational. but i researched this for a year before i even considered buying the frogs, then for another 3months after i decided on exactly the type of frogs i was getting. I missed the bit about the supplements though and i will forever regret it as i do not like losing animals in my care. I resent you insinuating other wise. the bulk of my research was actually research on the animals in the wild as i was striving to make an environment as close to nature as possible. my biggest regret is believing the petstore i should have known better i do not deny that fact. 
also i'm a girl.

smackoftheGods
thanks for the kind offer and i will bow to your greater knowledge and PM you to find out what these husbandry errors are and how to fix them. thanks again
firefur


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Wow...that was a read! In my opinion...It was the temperature. I live in San Diego and battling the heat is an issue, but I've never once felt one of my tanks to be warm to touch.

-Even though there were some differences of opinions, this seemed to be a common thought.

...Not getting involved in the rest of that.

I hope you avoid any further loss.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

replies in bold....



Firefur said:


> thanks for the vid.
> *you're very welcome *
> 
> the fogger is in the tank it is an exotera mini fogger which puts up a small jet of hot water and utilizes ultrasonic vibrations to vaporize it. for this reason it is in the back corner of the tank by the water filter and covered by a small brick so that the fog pours out of the same opening as the water coming from the filter, forming a small waterfall that goes into a small "pond" the brick is large enough that it doesn't get hot and their is a large piece of petstore-drift wood on top of that to prevent the frogs from touching that just in case. so i do count it as a heat source because it does raise the temperature of the water and the ambient temperature in that corner of the tank.
> ...


We all really want to see pics of your viv and setup please
btw when you do quotes use the [ ] brackets and not the : 
Take care


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Firefur said:


> i was un aware of this however i was hoping that something of the like had happened and they were only stunned so i kept the bodies in the hospital tank for 24hrs before we buried them. please tell me their was not a chance of them being alive at the time.


Since you waited 24 hours the chance of them still be alive is very tiny. If it was me I would have considered them deceased at this point. I was just making sure that option was ruled out. Ideally, do not bury non-native frogs or natives that come in contact with exotics as this can transfer pathogens into the local enviroment with potentially major impacts (such as chytrid, ranavirus). If you are ever unfortunate enough to have another carcass or carcasses, double bag them and discard into the trash. 



Firefur said:


> Ditch the moss and use leaf litter. It is much more natural and better for the frogs. Just search leaf litter, you'll hit a lot of threads on it (if you can't gather your own, you can purchase it from a number of people here on the forum as well as some of the sponsors).:quote:
> are their specific types of leaves i should avoid? i live in the middle of a redwood forest but we do have sorrel and several smaller Deciduous verities and other types of Conifers. if i do gather them myself, how long and how hot should i bake them to sanitize? I've heard anywhere from 250 to 300 are good base temps but that was for Aluminum-foil wrapped wood.


Pretty much any leaves can be used although I would suggest skipping conifers and eucalyptus as some of the naturally occuring resins and chemicals can be a problem. Favorites are leaves off of oaks, and magnolias, but many other types are acceptable. 
A lot of people do a lot of cooking the leaves in various way such as boiling, baking and/or microwaving. Personally, I think this is unnecessary for leaves and collect a store every fall and let them dry for at least six months before using. The occasional snail or slug I've found on my plants have always originated with the plants (which is why I quarantine my plants). If you search leaf litter you can read over the threads and how others deal with "disinfecting it".
If you are unsure about the local leaves you can always order some from the sponsors. I have to admit, that at some point, I'm going to planting a couple of Magnolia grandifloras on the property just so I can harvest the leaves. 

Ed


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## Firefur (Feb 10, 2011)

okay every time i try to upload the pictures it fails any ideas why?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Firefur said:


> okay every time i try to upload the pictures it fails any ideas why?


You may be trying to load too large of a picture. Typically if you resize them to be 700 by 700 they will load without a problem. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Firefur said:


> okay every time i try to upload the pictures it fails any ideas why?


just upload them to photobucket and then post the links.
it's the last link option


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## Firefur (Feb 10, 2011)

okay here are the pictures they do not show this tank to its best, the feed tubes are partly hidden under several rocks including the one were the thermometer is. all but the smallest of our five bromeiliads have died and the spanish moss has been severely trimmed back, also we used to have water plants but they kept clogging the filter as we took most of them out.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

jacobi said:


> Generally when something feels warm to the touch, unless you have been exposed to really low temperatures (its all relative to the temperature you were exposed to and what the difference is in temperature but think of running cold tap water over your hands after handling snow or ice and how it seems warm or hot), it is usually around or slightly above core body temperature, which being approx 97 degrees is pretty hot for a small frog.


My understanding is that this is not accurate (at least not entirely inaccurate). If you've ever wondered why the ideal temperature is right around 75 degrees for most people and not 98.6 degrees like your body heat should be, it's because your exothermic, which means that you produce heat, and as you produce heat you need somewhere for that heat to go. Therefore, if the ambient temperature is around 97 degrees you're likely going to overheat because your body has no way to expel the excess heat that it's producing.

Because of this, generally the things you touch that you don't feel are particularly warm or cold are going to be right around the 70-80 degree range. Of course, there are other factors. For instance, if what you're touching is made of a material that is conductive that is 70 degrees then you're going to feel it's a little chilly (this is the reason that carpet and tile that are the same temperature can feel significantly different). Then again, Kritter-Keepers are made of plastic (not particularly conductive), so since it was warm to the touch I suspect the keeper was pretty warm.... I doubt, however, that it was near the 100 degree mark.

Firefox, I responded to your vivarium setup via PM. I hope it helps.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Firefur said:


> okay here are the pictures they do not show this tank to its best, the feed tubes are partly hidden under several rocks including the one were the thermometer is. all but the smallest of our five bromeiliads have died and the spanish moss has been severely trimmed back, also we used to have water plants but they kept clogging the filter as we took most of them out.


attaching doesn't work as well as IMG codes plus you can only upload 3 at a time. JUst saying for future reference.
IMG code you can see bigger pics.

Anyway that is too much water and the water is too deep they can drown really easy.
It looks way too wet. If you put any of the broms in the substrate they died cause it was too wet.
It looks like the substrate is wicking up the water from the pond and the substrate can't be that wet...that's why your moss is dying.
Do you even have a drainage layer? even if you did the substrate could be sucking up the water faster then it can drain.
Mostly could have died cause there isn't enough light.
A well lit viv should look like this









The spanish moss should be removed...the water level should be cut down.
I had a feeling that there was more issues to all of this.
I'm not trying to be a jerk but you clearly didn't do enough research before you got your frogs. 
Just looking at these conditions and the fact that you didn't supplement them you shouldn't be owning any frogs right now.
Like I said I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm just being truthful and we can all help you and get this viv up to par and make sure it's a great place for the frogs so they can live a long happy life 
First thing that needs to happen is the viv needs to be rebuilt.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> My understanding is that this is not accurate (at least not entirely inaccurate). If you've ever wondered why the ideal temperature is right around 75 degrees for most people and not 98.6 degrees like your body heat should be, it's because your exothermic, which means that you produce heat, and as you produce heat you need somewhere for that heat to go. Therefore, if the ambient temperature is around 97 degrees you're likely going to overheat because your body has no way to expel the excess heat that it's producing.
> 
> Because of this, generally the things you touch that you don't feel are particularly warm or cold are going to be right around the 70-80 degree range. Of course, there are other factors. For instance, if what you're touching is made of a material that is conductive that is 70 degrees then you're going to feel it's a little chilly (this is the reason that carpet and tile that are the same temperature can feel significantly different). Then again, Kritter-Keepers are made of plastic (not particularly conductive), so since it was warm to the touch I suspect the keeper was pretty warm.... I doubt, however, that it was near the 100 degree mark.
> 
> Firefox, I responded to your vivarium setup via PM. I hope it helps.


lulz you called her firefox


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> attaching doesn't work as well as IMG codes plus you can only upload 3 at a time. JUst saying for future reference.
> IMG code you can see bigger pics.


On the flip side, when going through posts as little as a year old, you see all kinds of them where it says that the pictures have been moved or are no longer available. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure those missing pics are from people using Photobucket. My pics should stick around for a good, long time.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you read the working conditions for the digital temp probe sold by Zoomed, it says specifically that the LED read out end of the probe has to remain dry. Since you have left it inside the tank with the fogger and dampness, the correctness of the readout should be considered suspect. These sorts of temperature gauges are made to have the read out, outside of the tank.

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> attaching doesn't work as well as IMG codes plus you can only upload 3 at a time. JUst saying for future reference.


Actually that isn't true. If you load three pictures of the appropriate size to the server (by clicking the upload button after selecting your first three choices) it then gives you the option to load three more. A slight hijack but as this random assortment of shots can demonstrate it is easily done.

In addition, if you click on my pictures, you'll readily see that they blow to quite a large size for ease of viewing. 

If you don't know what your talking about please don't comment on it. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> On the flip side, when going through posts as little as a year old, you see all kinds of them where it says that the pictures have been moved or are no longer available. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure those missing pics are from people using Photobucket. My pics should stick around for a good, long time.


Yeah I know what you mean.
Although I use my photobucket and I don't remove any of the content so the pics stay up.
If you remove your content then it may mess up the codes.
I just think using the Dendroboard uploader is such a pain haha


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> On the flip side, when going through posts as little as a year old, you see all kinds of them where it says that the pictures have been moved or are no longer available. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure those missing pics are from people using Photobucket. My pics should stick around for a good, long time.


I think your right on point Doug. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> Actually that isn't true. If you load three pictures of the appropriate size to the server (by clicking the upload button after selecting your first three choices) it then gives you the option to load three more. A slight hijack but as this random assortment of shots can demonstrate it is easily done.
> 
> In addition, if you click on my pictures, you'll readily see that they blow to quite a large size for ease of viewing.
> 
> ...


yeah but I have to click to expand it and it takes me away from the thread or I have to open it in a new window.
What I meant is that you can only do 3 at a time 

edit: also doing the IMG codes you can insert pics as you are expliaing things and it makes it loads easier


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> yeah but I have to click to expand it and it takes me away from the thread or I have to open it in a new window.
> What I meant is that you can only do 3 at a time


So you presented incorrect information as fact simply because it was an inconvience to yourself? 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> So you presented incorrect information as fact simply because it was an inconvience to yourself?
> 
> Ed


um I didn't state my words correctly and I'm not perfect 
I have the right to be human, not perfect
it conveniences other as well as I said(in my edit of the post you're referring to you can input pics at the points in which you are referring to them and it makes things more clear.
I can't be perfect and neither can you...you misspelled inconvenience but meh we can't all be perfect.
Please stop coming at me all the time with such petty things.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

I upload instead of using photobucket because of missing pics. It can get pretty frustrating looking at old threads where half the pics are missing...might as well put them up for the duration. It may take a little cropping and re-sizing to get them to upload, but to me it makes the most sense.

Back to the OP: have you considered putting each frog into its own temp tank to fatten them up?


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> My understanding is that this is not accurate (at least not entirely inaccurate). If you've ever wondered why the ideal temperature is right around 75 degrees for most people and not 98.6 degrees like your body heat should be, it's because your exothermic, which means that you produce heat, and as you produce heat you need somewhere for that heat to go. Therefore, if the ambient temperature is around 97 degrees you're likely going to overheat because your body has no way to expel the excess heat that it's producing.
> 
> Because of this, generally the things you touch that you don't feel are particularly warm or cold are going to be right around the 70-80 degree range. Of course, there are other factors. For instance, if what you're touching is made of a material that is conductive that is 70 degrees then you're going to feel it's a little chilly (this is the reason that carpet and tile that are the same temperature can feel significantly different). Then again, Kritter-Keepers are made of plastic (not particularly conductive), so since it was warm to the touch I suspect the keeper was pretty warm.... I doubt, however, that it was near the 100 degree mark.


You are absolutely right. However, and this is my fault for not explaining it properly, I wasn't referring to room temperature walls and surfaces, but rather to objects that have been heated, such as heating pads or anything sitting in sunlight. When I said warm, I was referring to a temperature higher than ambient, which generally runs through the 90-105 degrees to feel "warm" to us, being just below or just above core body temps. However, I only use this as a general guide and not as an actual thermal reading because that would be plain... dumb. 

Some interesting reading... http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100020960_2010020520.pdf

Oh I forgot to mention. The entire point of my blathering was that it "could" have reached 100 degrees...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> Oh I forgot to mention. The entire point of my blathering was that it "could" have reached 100 degrees...


Some of the incage ultrasonic humidifiers do increase the temperature inside the enclosure as they use the water as a heat sink to cool the humidifier. This also occurs with aquarium filters and waterpumps. Care has to be taken when using in cage humidifiers. 

Ed


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## Firefur (Feb 10, 2011)

we think we finally found out what happened, apparently the same day they did the solar power management sprayed the rafters in every apartment with anti-mold stuff and fungicide.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Boy those frogs look skinny....

If that viv was as wet as it looks, frog waste and decaying substrate/plants combined with tons of dead flies is the perfect recipe for all sorts of bad pathogens. Not to mention that ammonia levels in the soil/water are probably through the roof. 

Step one: continue researching vivarium design. A fundamental knowledge of natural terrarium/viv design and the ecologic processes that occur in a closed system are necessary for long-term(or even short-term) success with darts or any tropical amphibian. Once you have mastered designing a viv that can sustain itself with minimal maintenance in the form of healthy plants, moss, a good amount of soil fauna, stabilized moisture levels, etc; then focus on researching frogs.

The habitat always comes first; without an environment that closely and accurately replicates an animal's natural habitat you are doomed from the start.


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

I thought the frog in the later picture looked skinny as well. 

I think step 1 should be to get these into temp sterile "tanks" ( as previously mentioned) for a whole slew of reasons....

It certainly helps monitor intake and will get them out of this damp, and seeminly dangerous viv.


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