# a variety of foods I'm looking into



## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey all,

Just thought about alternative insects to feed my PDFs as I'm trying to figure out how to culture as many different types of bugs as possible.

Bugs that I am considering culturing are:

FFs (already culturing)
isopods
springs
jewel wasps
termites
rice flour beetles
Melittobia digitata
ladybugs?
lacewings?

This allows me to have a variety of different foods. I'm looking into some sort of bugs that go through part of their lifecycle in water. This would be perfect for a water feature and for sustainability purposes. Although the cost of ordering the various media might be a strain.

Edited after afermoralis's comment :roll:


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

You really want to feed the mosquitoes to get them to reproduce?

The significant other is really gonna love that! lol!

To my knowledge there are no flightless strains of mosquitoes, and females require a blood meal before they lay a clutch of egss.

You're right about culturing in water though. Maybe midges (family Chironomidae) would be a better group to try to work with. In my studies of bromeliad fauna, there are almost invariably Chironomids present.

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

I guess mosquitos are out then! ::lol:: The only thing I thought about was how cool it would be to raise some in a water feature. I'll look into midges to see if they can be successfully raised in a water feature.

Any other opinions on the other insects?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

ladybugs and lacewings aren't great. They taste bad so most stuff won't eat them. But I would add lesser waxworms to that list (not meal moths). They are easy to culture and great food.


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## thumbnail (Sep 18, 2005)

*culturing insects*

I have been keeping termites for quite sometime, but not in the sense of reproducing. I will collect hundreds if not thousands from one area(same colony). Then I will set them up in a basic tupperware with rotted wood. Next in one corner I will add a plastic water bottle with moist cardboard stuffed in it, and the bottom cut out of it. I then punch small holes all over it. Set that down in the tupperware top up and let them go to it. Once they start using it you can collect them from the water bottle without disturbing the whole container, And when you run out you can just clean out the container and do the same thing over. On average it takes about six to eight months for me to run out of termites and have to recollect. But in no way would I feed them to darts everyday. I only feed them as kindof a weight gainer for females and a treat for every one else. If I am not trying to fatten a female with them then they are only fed to the whole colony once or twice a week and thats it. One thing though, you have to keep an eye on them. They will make one of there mud tunnels and get out if your not watchful I had a smaller container that I did not check for about six days one time and they had already made a mud tunnel straight into my carpet


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

The goal for me getting as many bugs as possible is to possibly feed a different bug every feeding (whether it be everyday or every 2 days). That way, I can neatly stack any tupperwares and just have ff cultures by themselves. So ladybugs and lacewings taste bad... what about newly hatched praying mantids? thumbnail, the termites actually ate through the plastic in your container? what's a good way to bypass this?[/quote]


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I tried mantid nymphs once with my azureus - and they could have cared less about them. Whether or not all frogs feel the same - I can't tell you. They are pretty easy to get to hatch from ootheca - but you have to be careful where you get the ootheca from, because they are considered pests. And unless you have a lot of ootheca ready at any one time - they are probably more of a sporadic food item.

As Brent mentioned - lesser wax worms are great. My bicolor love the moths, and the worms are eaten by all of my larger frogs. Very easy to culture and maintain.


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## thumbnail (Sep 18, 2005)

Not through the plastic. I had prepunched holes that they went through around the top.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

spydrmn12285 said:


> The goal for me getting as many bugs as possible is to possibly feed a different bug every feeding (whether it be everyday or every 2 days).


Given that I feed roughly every 3 days, your list already surpasses what would be needed to feed something different each feeding.

To round out your list, other possibilities are:

pinhead crickets - a pain to culture
aphids - some people have had good luck
red spider mites - easy to culture but can infest houseplants
ants
meadow plankton - the mother of all foods if it is practical


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

I was thinking spider mites and aphids, but I kinda don't want to deal with them possibly infesting my terrarium plants and the like. I'd do lesser wax worms, but the idea of having large moths frightens me. I used to work at a lab at the bio dept and I had to culture large moths for the professor's experiments. Those were HUGE! tobacco hornworms i think they were. Jewel wasps and Melittobia digitata I can take a little flying as they aren't that huge. iso's i think I'll pass as they take too long to culture. 

I haven't found any definitive information regarding ants. If someone could provide a safe species and an effective way to culture then I'm all for it.

I think the list boils down to:

melano FFs
springs
CFB
jewels 
Melittobia digitata 
termites
ants (pending)

Now all I need to do is find a cost effective, efficient, and secure way to culture a sustainable population!


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

Eh, just did some research on jewel wasp culturing...it seems too much of a pain to add fly pupae, especially larger pupae. It seems counter productive to make a culture of flies just for the jewel wasps. OR can you include a minimum # of jewel wasps in a FF culture so that I'll have two sources of foods in one container? That could be a plus, if the jewel wasps don't take over all the melano FFs.

Just a thought.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

You can add flour beetle larva... Not the beetles.

What about crickets?


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## thumbnail (Sep 18, 2005)

*foods for frogs*

I breed crickets also with ease now that I have staggered a few colonies to hatch at different points so that there is always pinhead and other smaller cricket sizes. As for the left over large adults my tarantula's take care of them.


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

I've read that some frogs actually eat the beetles and that it's different with each individual. I don't know how if I'm willing to risk my frogs not take the larva just because of a bad taste . Crickets just get too smelly, noisy, and alot of hassle once in the viv. 

What about..

whiteflies? 
Anyone know how to culture Achroia grisella effectively, cheaply, and within a limited space?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I didn't notice that flour beetles weren't on the list. That has to be the easiest species to culture and everyone should have a culture on hand. No frogs can refuse the larvae. The adults are usually not consumed but they will drown in your bromeliads providing good fertilizer.

Achroia grisella is the lesser waxmoth. Very easy to culture. Just mix up some good waxworm medium and put it in a quart canning jar with a wad of waxed paper in it. The only trick with these guys are the lids for the cultures. They can go through window screen when they are small and will chew through coffee filters. It is best to get some fine mesh metal screen to use as inserts in the canning jar lids. McMaster-Carr or Bioquip has screen of various mesh sizes that will work.


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

Thanks Brent, i'll look into that and all the various insect culturing when I return to school in january. Then the hunt for pests is on; should be interesting to find them especially with all the federal regulations on inter state shipping of bugs.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

bbrock said:


> But I would add lesser waxworms to that list (not meal moths).


Why is that?


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Fire brats are incredibly easy.

Once I started w/ aphids, I couln't imagine not having them now. They seem to be favorites.

As for white flies, could be done, but you probably would've wished you haden't started. They're real pesty, and what plants they do infest they do major damage upon. Suck the life right out of it. Not for me.

I thought about culturing misquitoes( :roll: ) a long time ago, but no longer have reasons to keep mice other than that. I'm not up to feeding mice to spiders. Way to complicated a system and to much space required. I would sacrifice my arms, but I'd prbably just end up indirectly inebriating the frogs. :wink: 

I have a small cage for small spiders that I feed my excess to (flies etc) and take the eggs sags out to hatch in small jars then to the frogs.

Dermestid beetles I have along w/ my crickets and silver fish which I feed the larvae to (some frogs) others don't really care for them. I mostly have them to help clean the container for longer. I don't know why people think crickets are so difficult, it only takes about a cubic ft. of space to culture thousand upon thousands a week. And if you keep them dry/clean there's no smell. The people that think they smell/are hard are the ones that tried them for the first week or two and gave up not working out the problems.

Some people feed roaches, I don't at least to my frogs.


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## EriksReptiles (Nov 23, 2006)

I didnt see that anyone else suggested it, but try Phoenix Worms! All my darts LOVE them! I just put some in extra petri dishes that I have and the frogs come hoppin' to get them! They are supposed to have alot of calcium and other good nutrients in them too! 

Heres the website so you can read up about them: http://www.phoenixworm.com/servlet/StoreFront . I use the "Extra Small" for my darts but you could use the "small" for bigger darts. The only thing is that I doubt that you could culture your own...

Thanks Erik


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

stchupa said:


> bbrock said:
> 
> 
> > But I would add lesser waxworms to that list (not meal moths).
> ...


Lessers are super easy to culture and are a great fatty food. They don't get as large as the greater waxworms and are much easier to culture because the greaters blast through their medium so fast. Phyllobates love to snarf the fully grown lessers and everything else eats them at smaller stages. 

Meal moths are a vial pest almost certain to invade your pantry.


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

^Erik, why wouldn't one want to culture these? I tried doing a google search, but didn't find much.

^^stchupa, I've seen these under stones and woods in my backyard. They just sliver back into holes they've made. Can I take these straight from my backyard and culture them? How would you do so? They're pretty fast; how do you harvest them?

Thanks for all the replies!


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## EriksReptiles (Nov 23, 2006)

spydrmn12285 said:


> ^Erik, why wouldn't one want to culture these? I tried doing a google search, but didn't find much.


Well im not sure how to culture them.. Thats what I ment. I have never found how to culture them and dont know how to make them pupate or anything... 

Thanks Erik


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

stchupa,

Do you feed aphids to your smaller frogs? How do you prevent infestations if the frogs don't eat them right away? How do you culture these as well? 

As for firebrats, do you culture these the same way you culture springs? I've seen these under stones and wood in my backyard alongside springtails. They just sliver back into holes they've made. Can I take these straight from my backyard and culture them? How would you do so? They're pretty fast; how do you harvest them?


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

EriksReptiles said:


> I didnt see that anyone else suggested it, but try Phoenix Worms! All my darts LOVE them! I just put some in extra petri dishes that I have and the frogs come hoppin' to get them! They are supposed to have alot of calcium and other good nutrients in them too!
> 
> Heres the website so you can read up about them: http://www.phoenixworm.com/servlet/StoreFront . I use the "Extra Small" for my darts but you could use the "small" for bigger darts. The only thing is that I doubt that you could culture your own...
> 
> Thanks Erik


Gah, I've seen some disturbing pictures of phoenix worms eating through darts. Nasty stuff...

Also, yeah, don't go with meal moths. They're evil. I had them invade RFB cultures and pupate inside the cultures while somehow making them all moist and... ugh... it was a mess.

Oh, and as to culturing the Phoenix Worms--the mating ritual requires massive amounts of space for the flies to fly around in and do some sort of dance thing. It's bizzare, but unless you have a perfectly sealed garage that you could donate entirely to dancing flies, I wouldn't bother with it.


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## EriksReptiles (Nov 23, 2006)

bluedart said:


> Gah, I've seen some disturbing pictures of phoenix worms eating through darts. Nasty stuff...


Hmmm... I have never had a problem with them. I actually have a buddy who has fed them to his frogs for almost a year now and hasnt had any problem...

Do you know where those pictures can be found?

Thanks Erik


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## joeyo90 (Nov 5, 2006)

excuse my ignorencebut...
i always thought aphids in the garden were bad but i guess the ones you can use in vivs are good?


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

EriksReptiles said:


> bluedart said:
> 
> 
> > Gah, I've seen some disturbing pictures of phoenix worms eating through darts. Nasty stuff...
> ...


Not at the moment... I'll look.


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## DPD4230 (Dec 1, 2006)

*screens*

Years past I was into PDFs. I also used to screen print. I used to use different poly/plastic mesh screens. Many, many sizes of mesh are available. They can be bought from any local textile printer. Maby you could just ask for unused scrap pieces. Thats when we were using snapple bottles for ff cultures. A hole punch was used for the metal cap. the screen was then glued inside the lid, and once cured trimmed. Easy to wash & reuse.


BTW Todd Kelly where are you?? Hector from detroit. No strings.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

joeyo90 said:


> excuse my ignorencebut...
> i always thought aphids in the garden were bad but i guess the ones you can use in vivs are good?


The aphids are the same. The only difference is that most of us don't have enough frogs hopping around our gardens to keep them in check.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I'm wondering if the "firebrats" mentioned to be seen in the backyard are actually firebrats, or a relative more along the lines of silverfish... which like it humid... firebrats cultured for frogs like it bone dry and really hot.

From Dartfrog.co.uk's food page:
"Firebrat
(_(Thermobia domestica_)
A relatively new livefood that must be kept bone-dry at temperatures bewteen 32 and 45°C. Requires only a kitchen towel base, wad of cotton wool and a constant supply of fresh fish flake/calcium to multiply.
Adults are taken by larger _Dendrobates_ while hatchling firebrats are devoured by most _Dendrobates_."

I know at least one frog keeper and I have tried the native firebrat looking bugs will little success with culturing.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

spydrmn12285 said:


> stchupa,
> 
> Do you feed aphids to your smaller frogs?


Of course. Why did you ask for smaller, I'm intrigued?


> How do you prevent infestations if the frogs don't eat them right away?


Wait until they do...
OK here is the deal, the way I see it is that every live feeder we use would be/is considered a pest (at least by me, but not more so than me :wink: ) given the the appropriate conditions/essentials in place of human convenience . 

Come on, try me, name one you think wouldn't be.

Now, I have had these infest some oxalis (possibly others [unoticed] currently to this day] for a short time, since it wasn't long before the frogs realized what I had noticed and made due. Didn't take long but was high quality enertainment while it lasted. :roll:

If having a whole room of plants (a green house/room) that are packed closely and not containerized as vivs are, you've basically paved them a high way to paradise. GHs may not be the perfect environment (pretty damn close) for them, *but* having *those* maintaining the houses be *those* ones who have to yet carry/apply common sense to duty. We'll, that's perfectly livable to a pest. Connected vectors are the pests retreat get away cars. When MANY people TREAT infestations they tend to go by what is observable to their frame. They chase the insects around in circles while continually overlapping past treatments. ALL one or none. You can't jump from one spot to another and not expect the bugs to trail your tail. This is considering the usage of pesticides as treatment (which personally would never be considered) which regardless of a TOTAL poisoning (of infected area) you would still have those few that linger and the never ending application continues. Hilarious truely. But enough before I die laughing.
You know if a bug bothered to laugh it would be at the similar. I don't think they (would) care to, so I do it for them. It truely is pethetic idiocy, so maybe they can but felt 'bad'/sorry to do so. So, not knowing anything about you, your meticulousness, hygeine/husbandry practices, attention to little detail, ambitiousness and so on I can't say for you "make the move". You know (or think you do) and that's good enough me to leave it up to you.

Although not everyones frogs can be expected to act the same. If they're prone (the keepers) to the equivilent of being spoon fed.



> How do you culture these as well?


Well not suprisingly I could almost effertlessly turn such a seemingly simple question into the never ending thread. The overall structure, developmental and reproductive process alone are too much. Let alone going back as far as I can (i.e. soil, then what makes soil?) I wont stretch the chemical jargon synthesis oyvin. The break down of nutrients at seperate times at simultaneuos intervals of the whole. That helps to know, but can also be self taught, so get w/ it.

I use a couple different plants to "culture" aphids that I have found to work nicely indoors/artificially. One, the all too common bean (most any kind sould suffice), I don't use much for beans because they don't grow as well under artificial light as other plants and . If you have enough seeds/room, light is not required to culture aphids, but motivation and $ wasted is.

Something I haven't heard of anyone else using (P.S. my favorite so far) is Dutch clover. What can I say, I like weeds. Very nice, compact, moderate-low light plant. Another nice thing on these is I have never had a single little plant (out of hundreds/thousands) die from over infestation.
I don't think it's possible for aphids to kill. It's almost a symbiotic yet completely parasitic relationship.

Now I seen recently (i think it was Corey) that small scale culturing isn't possible. Exactly to what scale is being refered to I have no clue. Oppinion is the general. So in 'my' "oppinion" of "small" (which is what I do, small scale, oppinion wise) is easily doable/feasible. I only use about 4 cu. ft. of space to culture a nearly endless supply of aphids, could possibly go w/ less but this is just what I started with.

The soil is the important things, but there's just too much to get into on that.

I have about 8 or so (at any given time) 6in cube shaped wheaton jars that I fill with a small layer of pumice to which I then add my soil recipe (I do not buy soil/fertilizer). You want to try and keep the plant feeding higher (than average) on the P ratio to help produce/maintain nice firm stems to feed from, helps keep the plant from drooping under (major) stress, over and under watering. I try to have little to no N (preferable) in the soil as N tends to be a filler for plants and is not neccessary at all for dutch clover as it is a nitrofying plant be nature. Always 'good' to be generous w/ your micros/macros. 

I do keep the cabinet they are in out of the same area as the frogs. No real reason, no I'm not concerned of infesting my frog room, wish I could actually. Just making use of space.

I use two T5s to light it, one may be enough depending on the plant. I always line my cabinets w/ reflective cloth. Hear me out, big difference, well worth it.

I usually have to replant one jar just under every week. Just depend It varies, mostly because of my absence/inconsistancies.

Every day (I can) I take the jar last picked up/looks heaviest w/ aphids and brush of w/ a light feather brush about 90-95 percent of the aphids. I've heard of people just laying the plant on its side in the vivarium to let the frogs just pick them off themselves buuuut, you better know what you're doing/spreading/contracting.







> As for firebrats, do you culture these the same way you culture springs?


Nope, but you probably could if you had some wood piled in it.



> I've seen these under stones and wood in my backyard alongside springtails. They just sliver back into holes they've made. Can I take these straight from my backyard and culture them?


 Sure
How would you do so? They're pretty fast; how do you harvest them?[/quote]

Constitute your coordination, they're fast but your bigger, I would think.
A 'good' way to get things, is make them come to you, give them a reason. Many people have these in there houses and never find out about it simply because they stay just out of reach/veiw. You can try a rolled up newspaper stuffed with wadded paper in both end with a little dry something (grain, meat....) in the middle. Burry one end opening about half way into the soil, best near/along a wood fence. Make sure it is well sheltered for wind rain and keep it this way for a cuple weeks. An old flat book works nicely as the like getting inbetween slight gaps.

The easiest way to culture is along w/ crickets as they have access to varability in conditions. They do drink (very little) and having the egg depo constantly moist they can get it from there if there's no fruits/veggies . I actually don't keep them with the breeding crickets, I have a seperate container to incubate the eggs layed by the crickets and the brats/fish/what ever the hell I have, I think they're fish, live mosly under the egg containers. Used to use wadded paper towels for them to reside in so they can be easiliy tansfered now I use a rolled peice of shade cloth as it doesn't degrade/get eaten. Pretty easy all you really have to do is maintain the eggs and throw in a little dry food every other day or so. They'll eat most anything as long as it is dry (ex:fruits/ veggies left to dry). They even keep the hatching container pretty clean.
I notice the other day that all my fish have four legs, maybe they keep a pair tucked, I don't know, just thought that was odd.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

bbrock said:


> stchupa said:
> 
> 
> > bbrock said:
> ...


Yep, give anything a chance it'll take it. I can't blame them though just taking advantage of stupidity, like everything else.


Figured about as much. 

But what I was asking is why lessers over meal moths? Because you must know (hope you do if not now you will later) lessers are just as much a potential pest as meal moths. The only real difference is production amount, flight capability, temp preference and time for metamorphosis.

They can/and will infest the same things, just at different paces. Chances are if you're not being careful w/ either at the time you're probably eating them before seeing them.

Less or more prolific, wouldn't matter to me, I wouldn't want to eat more or less of either, none.. You can't alleviate your awareness by assuming you're dealing w/ a "lesser" creature.

All it takes for either is that one moth to get in your house. It's probably a 'good' thing to have both because at leat it comes to your attention soon, if you have one you know you have the other.

I actually prefer meal moths mainly because they are a thousand times easier to harvest. I don't too much enjoy digging through bug pooh. I do how ever take both critter types outside to harvest when ever moths are present in the jar, which rarely happens unless my attention goes elsewhere and I forget to make new cultures. I keep a couple each breeding jars and about 2-3 times more harvesting jars.


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

^stchupa, the reason why I asked you about the smaller frogs is that I know they sometimes don't eat their food right away unlike some of the larger frogs, and my concern just plays into the whole infestation question. I guess I don't have too much to worry about when introducing aphids into the viv, as the frogs will get to them sooner or later before much damage...

I don't think springtails and woodlice as too much of a pest, other than just an annoyance. I may be wrong though. 

I was thinking of culturing them much like the information in kerokero's response. After reading your post, dutch clovers wouldn't be such a bad idea as well. A ten gallon tank culturinging these wouldn't be so bad for a collection of 10 or more frogs. I can understand it wouldn't make sense for anything less, unless aphids can be turned into a substitution staple other than ff's?

As for firebrats, could you basically do all the culturing in a plastic shoebox container?

Thanks for your detailed and informative posts!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I don't remember saying culturing aphids in a small scale isn't possible (I originally cultured aphids in JIF peanut butter containers growing up... I ate a lot of peanut butter) but are they worth the effort of doing so? Hardly. Too much time and effort for too small a payload. A 10 gallon tank is feasible (with at least that much room outside the colony to raise up fava beans for replacement), but a larger colony... say a 20 gallon... would give a much better payload. They just don't culture like FFs.

I guess the thing with culturing insects is looking into how much space and labor goes into culturing them... basically you want the most bang for your buck. Some insects produce well in small cultures (32oz or mason jars) such as FFs, RFB, meal or wax moths, springtails, isopods, shorelinite beetles... which allows you to have a lot of cultures in a small space. These cultures are idea for those with smaller collections as they have the most bang for your buck. Most people aim to keep something like less than a quarter of their "frog space" for frog food... when you keep only a 48" rack of frogs, the equivalent of 2 10g for a food that isn't even a staple is way more than really is worth it.

With more intensive cultures, smaller cultures aren't impossible, but rather are not worth the comparable effort it takes to sustain them. Examples of this would be roaches, crickets, aphids, firebrats. While you will probably need only one of these cultures to produce enough to make them worth the effort, they still require a lot of space and effort that is worth it only to those with much larger collections. The more of these intensive foods cultured, the larger the collection likely is. There are only a few exceptions... for example my collection at this point contains a majority of frogs that think hydei is small, so I am going to attempt to switch from lots and lots of FF cultures to a couple larger roach colonies. A small colony in a critter keeper wont produce much, but a couple large rubbermaids with a few hundred breeders in each would produce more than FFs in biomass using just about the same space... Of course, if your collection is mostly tinc group frogs, roaches probably are not worth their weight in salt.

With aphids, I need to make one thing clear... they are very specific parasites, and all references to "aphids" that I make are specifically about pea aphids such as the ones that can be bought from biological supply houses. When I talk about culturing aphids I am referring to the article posted in the FrogNet FAQs, which is about culturing pea aphids en mass. This basically means that using another type of aphid with this culturing technique will likely be a waste of time, and using other plants, such as the mentioned dutch clover, may or may not be a waste of time... pea aphids may not infest the plants at all, or not to the degree needed to maintain high population density. When cultured to their maximum capacity, pea aphids will literally suck fava bean plants dead.... you are continuously growing more fava beans to replace the dying plants.

That's not to say the aphids being used cultured on the dutch clover aren't worth culturing, they just don't apply to my methods. Another species that can be easily cultured on a plant they don't actually kill? If their production parallels pea aphids on fava, then its likely a step up, and the colony would be more condensed... more bang for your buck.

Culturing firebrats is rather the opposite of isopods, and likely needs to be done in larger cultures similar to small roach colonies... doesn't have to be huge, but more like a 19qt. rubbermaid container rather than a 32oz FF container, or a gladware like the ones I use for springtails/isopods. While isopods need moderate room temps and humidity, firebrats need it extremely hot (90-115F) and very dry. You might be able to keep them in a medium to large critter keeper, but would probably have better production in a larger colony. What you are seeing in your backyard are not firebrats, but rather relatives, likely bristletails or silverfish, both of which are not only found natively but also in cooler and more humid habitats. Last year after collecting a couple different species of native bristletail, they either never bred, or bred at so slow a rate their use as a feeder was basically none. If you're willing to heat things up and give the space, firebrats are the better way to go by far than trying their native relatives.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

spydrmn12285 said:


> ^stchupa, the reason why I asked you about the smaller frogs is that I know they sometimes don't eat their food right away unlike some of the larger frogs, and my concern just plays into the whole infestation question. I guess I don't have too much to worry about when introducing aphids into the viv, as the frogs will get to them sooner or later before much damage...


Thought that might be the case. Haven't noticed a problem, but they can't infect just any plant.

If your viv did become infested the smaller frogs are going to be the most likely able to control/find them.



> I don't think springtails and woodlice as too much of a pest, other than just an annoyance. I may be wrong though.


I was waiting for that one. Springtails. Funny, they really aren't considered a pest to me. But I was thinking more along the lines those that tend to be so tidey that they tie themselves in knots. The un informed people that don't know what things are so they have to do everything in there power to rid it from their lives (at least visually) to remain stable/comfortable.

Takes me back ti the green house days, if its in their potted plants and it moves, they don't care what it is they just don't want it, they would rather have the same plant (while possibly trading not only the health of their plant, but themselves and everthing they live with) but with the unobtrusive visible (inconvenience) gone and in place of it covered in the momentarily 'invisible' poison. As long as they can't see it they always go on living thinking it's really nothing there.

Then the folkls in the actual aquarium hobby that consider springs to be a pest in their tanks and worm cultures.

If you ask me, every one is just a little too damn picky.

Would lice would be at the top of my list as pest simply because they eat nearly anything dead and unfortunately a few lve things as well. I have lost some of my most desired plants to wood lice.

The gray dwarf wood louse (maybe all) can/will eat young springs and eggs.

But just like every other pest food to another.

I was thinking of culturing them much like the information in kerokero's response. After reading your post, dutch clovers wouldn't be such a bad idea as well. A ten gallon tank culturinging these wouldn't be so bad for a collection of 10 or more frogs. I can understand it wouldn't make sense for anything less, unless aphids can be turned into a substitution staple other than ff's?

There's not a whole lot to them (little sacs of sugar piss) so deffinately not a staple. They don't do well w/ dusting either.

I know one thing for sure is that I would be making 2 times more fly cultures than I do now if I were to not invest in the variety I partake in now. So in the end space pretty much equalizes itself, you just have to make full use of the space you have.



> As for firebrats, could you basically do all the culturing in a plastic shoebox container?


I suppose so



> Thanks for your detailed and informative posts!


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> I don't remember saying culturing aphids in a small scale isn't possible (I originally cultured aphids in JIF peanut butter containers growing up... I ate a lot of peanut butter) but are they worth the effort of doing so? Hardly. Too much time and effort for too small a payload. A 10 gallon tank is feasible (with at least that much room outside the colony to raise up fava beans for replacement), but a larger colony... say a 20 gallon... would give a much better payload. They just don't culture like FFs.


I thought it was you, can't remember exactly when where, recently and here is about as specific I can get.

I think it was more like "it just doesn't work" as oppose to being possible or not.





> I guess the thing with culturing insects is looking into how much space and labor goes into culturing them... basically you want the most bang for your buck. Some insects produce well in small cultures (32oz or mason jars) such as FFs, RFB, meal or wax moths, springtails, isopods, shorelinite beetles... which allows you to have a lot of cultures in a small space. These cultures are idea for those with smaller collections as they have the most bang for your buck. Most people aim to keep something like less than a quarter of their "frog space" for frog food... when you keep only a 48" rack of frogs, the equivalent of 2 10g for a food that isn't even a staple is way more than really is worth it.
> 
> With more intensive cultures, smaller cultures aren't impossible, but rather are not worth the comparable effort it takes to sustain them. Examples of this would be roaches, crickets, aphids, firebrats. While you will probably need only one of these cultures to produce enough to make them worth the effort, they still require a lot of space and effort that is worth it only to those with much larger collections. The more of these intensive foods cultured, the larger the collection likely is. There are only a few exceptions... for example my collection at this point contains a majority of frogs that think hydei is small, so I am going to attempt to switch from lots and lots of FF cultures to a couple larger roach colonies. A small colony in a critter keeper wont produce much, but a couple large rubbermaids with a few hundred breeders in each would produce more than FFs in biomass using just about the same space... Of course, if your collection is mostly tinc group frogs, roaches probably are not worth their weight in salt.





> With aphids, I need to make one thing clear... they are very specific parasites, and all references to "aphids" that I make are specifically about pea aphids such as the ones that can be bought from biological supply houses. When I talk about culturing aphids I am referring to the article posted in the FrogNet FAQs, which is about culturing pea aphids en mass. This basically means that using another type of aphid with this culturing technique will likely be a waste of time, and using other plants, such as the mentioned dutch clover, may or may not be a waste of time... pea aphids may not infest the plants at all, or not to the degree needed to maintain high population density. When cultured to their maximum capacity, pea aphids will literally suck fava bean plants dead.... you are continuously growing more fava beans to replace the dying plants.


Pretty much that's why I switched to a more robust weed. Grow quickley and can heal most any attack. If it wasn't for the soil nutrients that need to be replaced every month or so I would probably never have to re-seed my plants like I do weekly. 

It takes time for aphids to culture, but it's their time not yours. I only spend maybe a half an hour a week to maintain all the aphids, that includes watering, seeding and replanting the containers with fresh soil, discluding feeding them out. While they do their thing I'll go do my own. No time wasted. Now compare that to what I could spend making fly cultures and there you see the trade off. Everything I culture is more or
less of relative difficulty as the whole of maintaining them but all in different ways. Example crickets: Takes very little space (FT. Cubic including the hatchling incubator maybe a little less) to breed thousands a week but the trade off is the time SPENT cleaning, mixing/preparing feed, shuffling/watering eggs ect. If I wanted crickets as a staple, you would have to use a lot more space to do so. Waxworms mostly culture themselves but the trade is to having to pick them out/spending more time. Springtails culture themselves as well but to make use of potential space and get optimum production you have to keep a close watch, i.e. feed sparingly daily and keep the saturation level as close to correct.


> That's not to say the aphids being used cultured on the dutch clover aren't worth culturing, they just don't apply to my methods. Another species that can be easily cultured on a plant they don't actually kill? If their production parallels pea aphids on fava, then its likely a step up, and the colony would be more condensed... more bang for your buck.


Another reason I use clover is it gives more surface area (breaks from the apical maristem) and the roots are very fine but thickely crowded so they do much better containerized w/ the way I feed them. Lower light requirements as compared if you were to light/grow the bean seedlings. They grow very well (maybe better) crowded and thickley packed. It's a weed jungle haven. I couldn't even try to guess how many aphids there are at any given time. At least a few hundred if not thousands per mature growing container.

I was thinking of doing a companion planting with the dutch clover and something else to increase even better results, but I don't think I will fiddle w/ that until spring. I have a few :idea: s.


> Culturing firebrats is rather the opposite of isopods, and likely needs to be done in larger cultures similar to small roach colonies... doesn't have to be huge, but more like a 19qt. rubbermaid container rather than a 32oz FF container, or a gladware like the ones I use for springtails/isopods. While isopods need moderate room temps and humidity, firebrats need it extremely hot (90-115F) and very dry. You might be able to keep them in a medium to large critter keeper, but would probably have better production in a larger colony. What you are seeing in your backyard are not firebrats, but rather relatives, likely bristletails or silverfish, both of which are not only found natively but also in cooler and more humid habitats. Last year after collecting a couple different species of native bristletail, they either never bred, or bred at so slow a rate their use as a feeder was basically none. If you're willing to heat things up and give the space, firebrats are the better way to go by far than trying their native relatives.


[/quote]

Yeah I don't get to feed those 'whatevers' very often, but they just stick around w/ no extra effort so I put up w/ it.


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

kerokero,

thanks for the input. I will look into aphids when my collection of darts becomes much larger (heh, I know it will :lol: ). After that, I'll try the whole 2 ten gallon tank set-ups or the 20 gallon. I will do more research when the time comes. However, I may do some experiment micro culturing in smaller 32 oz. containers just for my experimentation. Everyone's experiences with dart frogs on the board seems so variable, I'll try anything that will help in their care and improve my husbandry. Thank you for the earlier frognet link, much of my knowledge comes from that care sheet. 

stcupa, 

I guess the whole "pest" question is relative and depends on who you ask! If you're a die hard pdf hobbiest, then nothing seems to be a pest besides mites! But then again, I can't think of a hobby where mites wouldnt be a pest. Again, I'll also hold off on the harder to culture insects when my collection becomes larger.

Thanks for the help everyone!


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

What the hell.. Well I don't know why I hit that button but might as well make use of the space I created and say mites would be the perfect food for many darts if they weren't so... disgusting I guess wold be the word.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

With PDFs, variation in diet is needed, and basically comes down to how much space and effort you're willing to put into it lol. The smaller the collection, generally the more production you're trying to get out of a smaller space... aphids just don't produce anything close to the amount of FFs in the same sized containers.

Aphids in 32 oz cultures are a total pain... you basically end up growing the plants in the container, not the best way to go. In the larger set up, you basically have a tank which you swap out pots of plants in. Can't really do this in a smaller container... you end up having to try and transfer all the aphids from one container to another when the plants go south... they don't just shake off like FFs (which is why you typically feed by placing the pot of fava bean in the frog tank).


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

stchupa said:


> But what I was asking is why lessers over meal moths? Because you must know (hope you do if not now you will later) lessers are just as much a potential pest as meal moths. The only real difference is production amount, flight capability, temp preference and time for metamorphosis.


I have my doubts about reports of true lesser waxworms infesting peoples pantries but I'm also still open to the possibility. The problem, in my mind, is that for awhile (possibly still) there was a species or two of meal moth that was being sold as "lesser waxworm". The true lesser wax worm is _Achroia grisella_. I'm guessing you already know that but wanted to throw that out there in case there are still some of the meal moths with the wax worm label on them.

But I can only speak from personal experience. I'm pretty confident that I've been culturing and feeding lesser waxworms longer than anyone in the US hobby since I was the one that introduced them to the hobby many years ago. During that time I've had many lesser wax worm moths get loose in the house although I try to minimize that. But we have never had them infest any of our food stuffs or set up breeding colonies outside the culture jars. I cannot say the same thing about meal moths that have come in with bird seed or dog food. I'm not saying they don't infest pantries, I'm just saying I have not seen it happen in my house. But after I sold a bunch of the original cultures at IAD many years ago, I did hear back from people who said the moths had escaped and infested thier pantries. I also got some complaints about mite infestations in the cultures. I have an unsubstantiated hypothesis of one possibility. When I made those original cultures, I substituted corn meal for the wheat bran I had been using in the medium. In retrospect it was a mistake which caused huge blooms of cereal mites and I have since switched to baby cereal as the bulking agent in the mix. I also question whether it may have polluted the cultures with meal moth eggs which can be hard to distinguish from the lesser wax worm moths. At any rate, the lessers gained a somewhat checkered reputation after than and I've been scratching my head ever since about whether they really deserve their reputation or not. I have never tried culturing the wax worms on just cereal or dog food to see if they can even survive and reproduce on the kinds of things you would find in your pantry. In the research I had done on lessers at the time I first started culturing, I found only references to their being pests in bee hives but nothing about being pantry pests. So I guess I would say that I remain open to the possibility they can be pantry pests but still wonder if it is a case of mistaken identity. Otherwise, I can't explain why I have never had any problems with them.


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## ccc (Nov 22, 2006)

Brent,

How long have you been feeding them to your darts?

Have you had any problems with them hurting the frogs or the frogs not eating them?

Chris


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

ccc said:


> Brent,
> 
> How long have you been feeding them to your darts?
> 
> ...


I think it was around 2001 or 2002 when I started culturing them and using them for food. No problems with them hurting frogs but they are extremely fatty so you don't want to overdo it. There are already enough people who seem to thing fat frogs are healthy, no need to create more. The larvae do grow large enough that many dart frogs won't eat them after they get to a certain size. But freshly hatched wax worms are eaten by every frog I've offered them to. Phyllobates will eat them at any size.

They aren't a miracle food though. They are fatty and can be a bit of a pain to extract to feed. But they are so easy to culture they can endure long periods of neglect without losing the cultures. They are not unlike rice flour beetles in that regard.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Brent,

Any new insects coming in the pipeline? The lessers are a great food. 



---


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

steelcube said:


> Brent,
> 
> Any new insects coming in the pipeline? The lessers are a great food.
> 
> ...


Not from me unfortunately. When I moved, I lost my connection to the entomology dept. Before I left, they had just gotten some leaf cutter ant colonies going and I was really salivating at the chance to try them out. Not something you could distribute to other froggers but man they looked like a good food source and interesting too.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I kinda wonder if the "wax moth infestations" in the pantries really were wax moths and not just coincidental meal moth infestations? I definitely had that occur when I was working with them, and my moths were blamed. While meal moths look very similar, it turned out it was meals, not waxes, that for some reason picked a horrid time to invade.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

> I have my doubts about reports of true lesser waxworms infesting peoples pantries but I'm also still open to the possibility. The problem, in my mind, is that for awhile (possibly still) there was a species or two of meal moth that was being sold as "lesser waxworm". The true lesser wax worm is Achroia grisella. I'm guessing you already know that but wanted to throw that out there in case there are still some of the meal moths with the wax worm label on them.


Nope didn't know that, I'm sure I've seen/heard it before and lost it, I'll forget by tomorrow but thanks anyway.

I do know the names wax worms and meal moths and try not to make duplicate memories for the same thing. 



> But I can only speak from personal experience. I'm pretty confident that I've been culturing and feeding lesser waxworms longer than anyone in the US hobby since I was the one that introduced them to the hobby many years ago. During that time I've had many lesser wax worm moths get loose in the house although I try to minimize that. But we have never had them infest any of our food stuffs or set up breeding colonies outside the culture jars. I cannot say the same thing about meal moths that have come in with bird seed or dog food. I'm not saying they don't infest pantries, I'm just saying I have not seen it happen in my house. But after I sold a bunch of the original cultures at IAD many years ago, I did hear back from people who said the moths had escaped and infested thier pantries. I also got some complaints about mite infestations in the cultures. I have an unsubstantiated hypothesis of one possibility. When I made those original cultures, I substituted corn meal for the wheat bran I had been using in the medium. In retrospect it was a mistake which caused huge blooms of cereal mites and I have since switched to baby cereal as the bulking agent in the mix. I also question whether it may have polluted the cultures with meal moth eggs which can be hard to distinguish from the lesser wax worm moths.


Curious killed the cat, who did confidence kill? Hmmmm, better to know and be sure.

Not too hard to do. But I have to say you must have very poor vision to not be able to tell them apart. Wax worms= rounded, splayed wings, round head and the dead give away is the orange coloration on the thorax, Meal moths= angular, folded wings an angular head/mouth parts usually a light brown as opposed to the grayish color of wax worms.



> At any rate, the lessers gained a somewhat checkered reputation after than and I've been scratching my head ever since about whether they really deserve their reputation or not. I have never tried culturing the wax worms on just cereal or dog food to see if they can even survive and reproduce on the kinds of things you would find in your pantry.


Well, what the hell do it and find out for yourself. I've done it myself and yes they can, although if you were to culture them this way it would be a waste of time as you only get a few thriving at a time. Meal moths aren't really impeded at all. If you would've done that you wouldn't be wasting time contradicting me w/ unsurity.now, right?



> In the research I had done on lessers at the time I first started culturing, I found only references to their being pests in bee hives but nothing about being pantry pests. So I guess I would say that I remain open to the possibility they can be pantry pests but still wonder if it is a case of mistaken identity.


If they were to get into something like wheat flour or any single grain mix, I'm not sure if they could actually take root. They probably can't infest everything like meal moths. But on my a culture experiment I did I mixed a few different dry grains/seeds together and they did culture. I think it has to do w/ oils in the seed. I had flax and peanut (which are very oily) in that culture which seemed give them the boost they needed. Rice is easily digested when ground fine so that probably playerd it's part too.

In my case, I know it wasn't. I can't be sure of yours though. It's likely you sent both moths to those people in the same jar if your attention to detail went south. But, we'll never know that for sure, so forget it.



> Otherwise, I can't explain why I have never had any problems with them.I kinda wonder if the "wax moth infestations" in the pantries really were wax moths and not just coincidental meal moth infestations? I definitely had that occur when I was working with them, and my moths were blamed. While meal moths look very similar, it turned out it was meals, not waxes, that for some reason picked a horrid time to invade.


If you ever have had an infestation of meal moths, they tend to stick around from what I've heard, not bloom and die out. But I can't say for sure. Like I said before, you're probably eating them before seeing them as it takes months for wax worms to culture on a dry/non honey mix. And what ever does hatch out is few and far between. Not really a pest word for word, more of a nuisance. It's only a pest if you recognize it as actually happening.

Corey,
What did they tend to infest most?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

[quote="stchupa
In my case, I know it wasn't. I can't be sure of yours though. It's likely you sent both moths to those people in the same jar if your attention to detail went south. But, we'll never know that for sure, so forget it.[/quote]

The only way this could have happened is if the cornmeal I used in the medium contained meal moth eggs which isn't likely since it was a fresh cannister of corn meal and now days those products are usually fumigated before the package is sealed. I do know the difference between meal moths and waxworm moths so I know that only waxworms were used to seed the cultures. The most convincing report of infestation came from Richard Reves of Black Jungle who said he had moths everywhere and had to use moth traps to get them under control.

All I know is that over the past 20 years we've occassionally seen meal moths infest dog food, bird seed, or the occassional box of cereal even though I have never cultured those nasty things for frogs. But after 5 or 6 years of constantly culturing the waxworms in the house and having more than the occassional escape, we've never had them turn up in any of our food stuffs.


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