# Sundews safe?



## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

i found some very small sundews here in central FL. maybe Drosera spatulata but i dont know its native locality, but they are very small, 1/2"-2" max. anyway would it be safe to use these in a tank full of vents? if not maybe something larger like azureus? i was just thinking those little droplets are used to digest food rite? couldnt this be harmful and maybe even catch a little vent :shock: thanks josh


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## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

After searching i believe it is Drosera brevifolia or capillaris. here is a pic of the brev.


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

Others may tell you not to use them, because they have tried to tell me that, but still others have told me it is okay. I have several sundews and butterworts in my tank with my two month old luec babies. I have had them in with tomato frogs for longer than that and have seen absolutely no side effects. So my experience with them in tanks is very positive. The tanks started out being strictly for my CPs before ever adding frogs to them. I would be more worried about some kind of pitcher plant that they might could fall into and not be able to climb back out.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2006)

NO SUNDEWS IN THE TERRA !  they can harm the skin of the frogs...


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## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

thats what i was affraid of. i have few of them growing in a setup without frogs for now but the frogs will be here in a few weeks. they have shot up some flowers and look pretty neat. oh well, guess ill just take them out when the frogs get here. later josh


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

Until someone can provide proof that they hurt the frogs, I will not be taking mine out. All I have heard is basically opinions on the matter but no real evidence. I can see how it would be thought that they could hurt the frogs since the do produce digestive juices, but are people saying not to put them in there because they are afraid they will hurt the frogs or do they have proof to back it up? I have heard someone else say they have a picher plant and the frogs hop in and out of it all the time. That is full of digestive juices! Before I ever added frogs to my terrarium I researched this for several months and talked to a lot of people. My conclusion was that sundews and butterworts are safe. I would have never put my frogs in there if I thought they would harm them.


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## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

back,
i understand what you are saying. i also understand that you are the only one replying with personal expreience. but i do know they produce digestive juices and would rather not risk $300 in frogs for some free plants. i feel that they would be safe considering their small size but would rather wait for the froglets to beef up a little before i put them back in the tank. later josh


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Not all pitcher plants have pitchers that have digestive enzymes in them. S. purpurea for example does not, it relies on bacterial and invertebrate break down of the captured insects to liberate the nutrients to feed on them. 
As a side point, the liquid in a pitcher plant pitcher is not sticky like a sundew which would reduce its contact time. Drosera have been used historically as a rubifacent when rubbed on the skin indicating that there is an irriating compound in the plant and these plants have been implicated as sources for contact dermititus after being handled. 

As a further side point, there are records in a number of pitcher plant species of frog skeletons being found in the pitchers. If you want to grow pitchers with small frogs, I would suggest some of the small helioamphoras as there are some theories about some of these possibly evolving to encourage small hylids to shelter and defecate into the pitcher as well as trap invertebrates.

Some comments,

Ed


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

that makes sense! My tomato frogs have been in with sundews for several months, but they are very large. Since this is a debated issue, I would certainly like to get more info on the idea, and talk to other people use use CPs in with their frogs. My tanks were originally set up for the CPs and the frogs came later.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2006)

Well Ill tell you too, they are most likely fine. I am a horticulturist and from my perspective its absolutely rediculous to think any Sundew a danger to a frog. A large Nepenthes such as truncata would be another matter.

I think one thing that many dont understand about sundews is that while they have evolved to produce digestive ensymes that can consume most anything they come into contact with, these enzymes have likewise evolved to digest only very small prey i.e. simple structures. Furthermore inorder for these enzymes to be effective they need to be exposed to the prey item for an extended period of time. Its not as though these plants can dissolve tissue on contact. If that were the case I think many of us CP growers would think twice about our sundews.
IMEO

Matt


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## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

Ed and Rubisco,
thanks for that info! interesting notes on the pitchr plants. i was also needing a little clarification on the digestive enzymes of the sundew. as i undrestand it now the sticky droplets are NOT digestive but used to hold/pull the insect to a central part of the leaf which then makes/excretes the enzymes. if this is true, im leaving my sundews in!


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks Rubisco for joining in on this. I spoke to people who have grown CPs for a long time and who also incorporate them in with their animal tanks before deciding to put them in mine. As far as picher plants go, I meant nepenthes. The other kind, the sarracenia, all need cold dormancy period and grow too tall for a terrarium anyway. Some people have nepenthes in their tanks and say they have no problem with them. I would not put a nepenthes in mine. Actually, I do have two seedling neps, but will remove them as they get big enough to be a problem. I want to breed, and I can just imagine the frogs depositing tads in the picher! Sundews and butterworts are what I am sticking with in my tanks. Most frog tanks, though, are not going to provide enough light for these plants to grow properly on the bottom of the tanks. With all the growth on the background and things like that, a lot of the bottom of the tanks are pretty shady. My plants do well in my tomato frog tank because I do not have a fancy or pretty background, I have the highest wattage compact flourescent light I could find, and then I lined the back and sides with aluminum foil to reflect even more light onto the plants.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "think one thing that many dont understand about sundews is that while they have evolved to produce digestive ensymes that can consume most anything they come into contact with, these enzymes have likewise evolved to digest only very small prey i.e. simple structures. Furthermore inorder for these enzymes to be effective they need to be exposed to the prey item for an extended period of time. Its not as though these plants can dissolve tissue on contact. If that were the case I think many of us CP growers would think twice about our sundews"

I'm not sure that the idea that an enzymatic reaction is limited only to simple structures (but I may be splitting hairs here) as protein molecules can be large and complex and the protease is going to split it ever it finds the linkage it was made to degrade. The only place it may not be able to function would be if the tertiary structure of the protien prevented the enzyme from accessing some of the linkages (or as other linkages were split, the structure would collapse preventing access to those linkages) The rate of degredation is going to depend on the temperature that is optimal for the enzyme to function as above this range you will get denaturing of the enzyme and below this range the kinetics can be slowed sufficiently to make the enzyme useless. 

However I was not discussing the digestive properties of the enzymes as you pointed out may not have sufficient contract time but the length of time maybe more than sufficient for the irritation of the skin as a dermititus. Drosera are also known to contain plumbagin and related naphthoquinones which can have the following (Singh and Udupa (1997)) toxic side effects including diarrhea, skin rashes, increases in white blood cell and neutrophilcounts, increases in serum phosphatase and acid phosphatase levels, and hepatic toxicity 
(See Singh, U.V., Udupa, N., Umadevi, P., Kamath, R.,Nagarajkumari & Ramanarayan, K. (1997) Antitumor and antifertility activities of plumbagincontrolled release formulations. Ind. J. Exp. Biol., 35(4), 374-379 ) With many plants these chemical compounds are typically only expressed when the plant is injured, however over the years there have been a number of reports of contact skin irritations from these (for some anecdotal reports check the CP listserve archives) plants indicating that there is some active secretion. 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I would like to add, I have been raising 30+ types of CPs for nearly 8 years now (long before frogs), and one thing is for sure, sundews need a LOT of light. If you had something of lower wattage, they will not thrive much below two inches of the bulb. But for best color, they need at least a 55 watt CF and directly under it for good growth inside. Sarracenia purpurea is a poor choice in a tropical tank because they are temperate and need even more light then a sundew likes. Most CPs will not like the more neutral pH of vivarium soil, and will not like the mineral buildup (unless you're using a misting system with RO water.) However, they tend to prefer much more acidic media with much fewer nutrients than what we keep our frogs and other plants in.

They tend to mold prey in a very sealed up tank. I tried putting one in a setup vivarium and had to remove it because of that.

Yes, Heliamphora have a symbiotic relationship. There is a hairless splotch right underneath the nectar spoon that encourages hylids to feed off insects that manage to be attracted to the nectar, and then defecate (fertilizer) into the pitchers. Peter D'Amato also notices that in his nursery, P. regalla will do the same thing, even if naturally they are separated by an entire continent.

Ed: There are a few Rhacophorus frogs that DO utilize Nepenthes. There was an article in CPN about that, btw.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Doug,

I get the cpn also and I remember the article, however most nepenths do not stay small enough to be of use in the average frog enclosure which is why I skipped over them unoike the helioamphoras. 
I used S. purpurea as the example, not to encourage its use in frog terraria but to give an example of a pitcher that does not use digestive enzymes in the pitchers.. 


Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I wasn't trying to encourage it either, but I've gotten into several debates with that already, so not to be redundant. Just a random, side thing about the Rhacophorus. (However, some people HAVE attempted to keep purpurea in their tanks) While I know you weren't necessarily recommending it, I thought I might add that because of the many complaints that their S. purpurea haven't done very well in their tanks.

Ed, do you keep Heliamphora? One discouraging thing about them (other than the light issue) I have heard that only H. heterodoxa x. minor is suitable for vivarium purposes, as they are smaller and will tolerate warm temps (contrary to what most darts like). I have not had the pleasure yet from working with them, perhaps you had.

I believe there have been around 3-5 new species of Heliamphora discovered in the Tepuis.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Doug,

I have only in the last couple of years gotten into a place where I am comfortable increasing my cp collection (I had a small collection of butterworts, bladderworts, and sundews (about 30 plants) about 10 years ago but lost most while I was injured due to an aphid outbreak and inexpert care (as I was not around to take care of it)). I plan on putting in a couple of small bogs this spring and have some shelf space set aside for the cps (I have an old 4 bulb icecap VHO 660 system set aside for the cps so I'm not too worried about growth and light intensity and have all intentions of trying the helioamphoras.... (At some point, if I can get a greenhouse want to try D. cistiflora)

I do use bladderworts in some of my terraria and have good success with U. lividia but I would like to try U.longifolia in a drip wall at some point. 

Ed


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

I have grown D. capillaris in a 10 gallon tank with D. leucomelas for 2+ years with no problems. The D. capillaris multiply quickly, and even flower in the tank, but will die if shaded by other plants. Even with 120 watts of CF lighting, they do not obtain the dark red color that they should.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

But this also doesn't mean that the risk to the frogs is not present as some of the symptoms from exposure to the active ingredients would not be apparent unless the cytology has been checked or the liver biopsied....


Ed


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

There's a lake here in Washington that I bass fish at with tons of sundew and frogs. Half the lake is a mass of floating sphagnum moss. I can stick my arm into the moss all the way to my shoulder without touching anything solid. The entire shore for 100's of yards are covered with sundew. Tons of frogs too, everywhere!


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Ed said:


> But this also doesn't mean that the risk to the frogs is not present as some of the symptoms from exposure to the active ingredients would not be apparent unless the cytology has been checked or the liver biopsied....
> 
> 
> Ed


Perhaps so. I wasn't arguing one way or the other . . . just stating my experience. The frogs seem healthy enough, and lay regularly.


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

jwerner, wow! I wish I could see that! And to the others, there is obviously evidence that CPs and frogs can live in harmony. I still have yet to hear anyone show proof that the sundews will actually hurt the frogs, just supposition. It would be nice if somebody had some lab results or something like that showing harm, but since it doesn't seem to exist and the frogs and CPs cohabitate naturally with each other, then I'm going with the assumption that they are safe and not pulling them out of my tanks. They make such a great addition to the tanks, I love these plants!


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

ya, at this lake there are thousands of sundews. Bullfrogs and treefrogs everywhere too. There are so many sundews that the shore glistens in the morning sun!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "And to the others, there is obviously evidence that CPs and frogs can live in harmony. I still have yet to hear anyone show proof that the sundews will actually hurt the frogs, just supposition. It would be nice if somebody had some lab results or something "

I'm in a little bit of a hurry so I hope no one takes my being blunt the wrong way. 

There is a signficant difference between animal and plant interactions in their native habitat (particuarly when dealing with species that have evolved together) than when they are together in a terraria. 
When dealing with amphibians, one must keep in mind that the skin is permeable to a lot of things and in an enclosure thier ability to avoid contact with an item (particuarly an exuded chemical) is severly reduced. 

Now we do not know for sure that the exudates from Drosera will definitely affect amphibians when kept in an enclosed space but given the permeability of the skin and the literature showing irritation in skin contact in some people, I would be concerned. 

Ed


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2006)

Well I think you ve made your point then, your concerned about the inclusion of drosera into Vivaria containing anurans.

What I think is most obvious here though is that while some of us have concerns others have success. 

So clearly the jury is still out on this. I guess the best answer any of us can give is to proceed at your own risk.

Matt


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