# i am starting with Epipedobates tricolor my journey in to the poison dart realm!!



## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

hey guys!

just got my first poison dart frogs !

they are 3 juvenile e.tricolor !

i have my springtail culture and am starting to breed them now !

and also starting some fruit fly's now !


so i don't have a set up yet !

am planing to keep the for 2-3 weeks in quarantine feeding them well so i can get them started and i will have the time to set up my enclosure probably an exo terra ..

although i have read many care sheets 
i can still youse some first hand knowledge..

so do you have any pointers as of how to start my first darts ?


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

how often should i feed at this point ?


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## Dragas (Sep 4, 2008)

can be fed every day !

Keep reading !

The Search function is your friend ! 

There is literally endless amounts of information on this board !


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

Like Draggas said - there is nearly an unlimited amount of information here.

Below are two links to "Stickies" at the top of the Beginner Forum. I've posted them here for your convenience. Please spend some time here so that you can come back with more specific questions - which someone will be GLAD to answer! 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/17993-my-top-10-beginner-mistakes.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/11865-good-threads-read-beginners.html

*GOOD LUCK and WELCOME TO DENDROBOARD!*


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

thnx guys !

am kind like a pioneer here because there not even one other Pearson that keeps dart frog in my country ..

so am trying to establish the basic foundation for others that may follow ..


i imported my frogs and my colony of springtails ..

before that i was experimenting in fruit fly cultures ..(on other arboreal frogs hyla genus ) going very well 

just to get a general feeling on how the breeding will go !

in the first night my darts came home ..

one of them died ..

found out this morning ..

so my chances of breeding them at one time are very slim ..

i only have 2 now and don't know the sex of them .


so its very critical not to screw up now ..


as i said now i keep them in a small yogurt plastic cup with moss and a mix of soil and humus a small cup of water bottle as a watering dish (and small ventilation holes)

the temp in the room now is about 23 day and it gets 22 -21 

just the ambient temps .. 

i gave them spring tails for breakfast ..

what do you think ?


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your loss! So what country are you in? 

What are you keeping in the yogurt cups? The feeders or the frogs? Quarantining your frogs is definitely a good idea. Just be sure to give them plenty of hiding places so that they are not overstressed by feeling "out in the open". Your temps seem fine.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm sorry for your loss . 

I have no dart frog experience as of yet but I can give you some helpful information others have made available on this forum. Read this very carefully:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13157-epipedobates-tricolor-e-anthonyi-intermediate.html

One thing it mentions is "While on the small side, these animals prefer larger food items such as hydei and one to two week old crickets", so maybe start by using fruit flies instead of springtails. The temps sound about right but others may be able to give you more specific guidance if you post pictures of your temporary setups and tell us what supplements you're using. Good luck to you .


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

melas said:


> Sorry to hear about your loss! So what country are you in?
> 
> What are you keeping in the yogurt cups? The feeders or the frogs? Quarantining your frogs is definitely a good idea. Just be sure to give them plenty of hiding places so that they are not overstressed by feeling "out in the open". Your temps seem fine.


am in cyprus !

your name sounds greek ! 

i was wandering is it better to keep them in a small enclosure as frog lets ..

so that they can find there food easier ..

providing them also with a few leaves for cover ..

or a bigger enclosure ?


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

Cyprus? Wow - yeah I have never spoken with anyone from there before! Welcome! My name is actually Matt - my screen name is "melas" as in _Dendrobates leucomelas_ (bumble bee poison dart frog).

Yes keeping them in smaller containers will definitely help with food acquisition and also aide in your ability to monitor their progress. I just picture a yogurt cup as being very small. Perhaps they are different where you are from . . . this is what I'm envisioning.


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

i should have thought so .. 


btw most of the scientific name of animals have greek roots or latin !

yogurt is also greek and here it comes in biger cups with more horrizontal space than vertical 

but pretty much you are just about right on the shape of the cup 


so for now i will leave them in the small container and keep feeding springtails daily and also misting daily !


ops my bad !!!

nice to meet you all and my name is george!

am starting to plan my final enclosure ..
this spices is terrestrial but from what i read it prefers some high ground for breeding purposes..


am goigng for the exo terra set ups with the bakround ..

the only think that worries me is the mesh top ..

but i think is easily covert with a small pice of glass on top ..


what would be the prefered size for 2 adult tricolors ?


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

oops my bad !!

nice to be here in this forum ..

and my name is George!

looking forward having interesting discussions about this little frogs we shear interest in !


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

melas said:


> Quarantining your frogs is definitely a good idea...


Yes. Yes. And a third yes because yes yes has less than 10 characters and we don't want simple yes or no posts.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Don't worry about the mesh top. Put a piece of glass over the top allowing for a little (_very_ little) space for ventilation. You'll be good 

How big just kinda depends, but if you're going for vertical space I'd go for the 45x45x60 (I think that's what it is... I use inches so I'm not used to converting to centimeters) enclosure if you're looking to keep three.


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

so far i don't have any problems that i know of ..


how to i calculate the amount of spring tail i feed ?

for now i just scoop 1. 1/2 table spoons of soil with springtails in it ..

the next morning i go to feed i gain i dont find any left overs is that good ?
and something i want to know ..

how long this frogs can stay with out food and not be in any danger ?


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

it takes about two weeks for a fruit fly culture to get going. a healthy adult dart can go a week easy without eating. how long a frog can go without food depends greatly on how fat they look. aslo a stressed frog or growing frog will not be able to go as long without food.

you should look into field sweeping for meadow plankton. there are a few threads on this subject in the feeding topic you can search for. I don't know if you have many bugs crawling around in tall grass, but if you do then your in luck.

also if your getting desperate, ants are an option. put out a potato chip or some other greasy, fatty food by their mound and they will flock to it. feed only a few ants and watch your frogs reaction. if they aren’t stinging him and he’s eating them then your good to go. don't overfeed with ants because they can overpower a frog if he has nowhere to go. also make sure that the ants (or any other food) are no bigger then half the distance between the eyes of your darts.


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

my springtail cultures .. i dont think they are going to last for long because i thing i made i mistake and put to match soil mix in the containers and they are very hard to find ..
4 cm deep ?

is that any problem ?

i feed my springs mashrums and fish flake food grind ed ..


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

my soil is twice that deep in my cultures. since your in a food crisis and needed them now it was probably a mistake to add soil, but the deeper your soil the more stable the culture will be, because it makes for different moisture and temperature gradients. your foods are good so you will likely see them boom right back. besides food i have dead leaves on top of my cultures for my springtails to feed on, and this is how i harvest my springtails. try taking a cupple of old bannana leaves from your yard and putting them on the top of your soil, you might like the results.


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

did that today ..

i hope i start seeing results soon because am going to be in deep trouble ..

i have some pin heads that i was going to breed ..
im gonna try them tomorrow but am worried that they are big for my darts ..

they are just pinheads but still my frogs are tiny ..

should i try them and wait to see there reaction ?

if they go into feeding mode or the are afraid ?


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

if you have pinhead crickets try them out as soon as you can because crickets grow very fast, and even the smallest pinheads take only a week or two to outgrow food size for most darts. most people by the adult crickets, and not pinheads, if they are looking to breed them. like I said before you want your food to be no bigger then half the distance between the frogs eyes, but if your lucky they will accept larger food. don't worry about the frogs choking, if the food is too big they simply wont eat it or will spit it back out. try feeding a few crickets and if the frogs haven’t eaten them in one or two days take the crickets out.

another food source I just thought of that you might be able to harvest are aphids.


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

i will try the pinheads today and will inform you on the progress 

one other thing the i want to ask ...

my temps early this morning were 18 c 64.4f is it to cold ?

the normal temps are 22-24 day and 22-20 night time !


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## Ziggi (Jan 23, 2009)

are phoenix worms or flower beetles available to you?


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

no .. i have meal worms and max worms way bigger that the frogs !


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## Ziggi (Jan 23, 2009)

Yes those would be too large for the frogs.
Maybe you should look at purchasing a few FF cultures online until you can get pin heads breeding or other food sources because you'll need something to feed those little guys soon. Phoenix worms and flower beetles can also be bought fairly cheap online.
If your springtails aren't producing well enough you'll need another food source that's for sure.


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

where can i order online .. ?

am in Cyprus Europe ..

do they ship here live foods ?


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

you need the correct paperwork to import animals and insects across international borders and it sounds like a real headache, unless you smuggle them in which I am not recommending.

go into the "User CP" and update your info to say your from Cyprus, so people will know a little bit more about your situation.

your temps are ok for the frogs, but you want your fly cultures to stay above 70*F for increased production time. personally I let my room dip down as low as 60*F some nights and I’m paying for it now with my fruit fly cultures crashing.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Try emailing College Faculty (Biology Departments / Genetics )

Department of Biological Sciences

If they don't culture Flightless _Drosophila_ then I bet they know how you can legally obtain some.

The media (food) for raising them is easy to make and you will have no problem with that whatsoever.


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

thnx guys for your help you all have been very help full ..

today i tried the pinhead and to my amazement the frogs went instantly in to feeding mode ..

even in front of me ..

a curently have 2 tricolors as i said .. the one is slightly bigger than the other ..

so the bigger guy eat 3 pin heads and the smaller one just one 
this means that they are going well ..

hopefully this will take the pressure of my springtail cultures and give them time to reproduce..

i have started capturing fruit fly's by leaving some rotting fruit on a tall plastic cup cover with the membrane we use for covering food ..

and i made tiny holes with a toothpick so the get in and then they cant get out ..

so they mate and lay eggs 

i have tried his before and this works .. the weather is not so hot now thought for the flys to breed and am having a very slow progress ..


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

hey guys ..

what life span do the drat frogs have and especially tricolors ?


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

darts live a long time, and usually out live the interest of the hobbyist. I’m still fairly new so my oldest darts are only 2 years old, but there are plenty of people on here who have darts that are 10+ years old. I haven't heard of any darts over 20 years though... yet.


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

wow !!


10 years for this little critters ?

i know that red eye tree frogs live about 4-5 years .. tops 


that is indeed a good investment


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

How are you making out with the search for flightless fruit flies?


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

not good ..

cant find ..

but i will have 1 or 2 new springtail colonies until the end of this month so am good ..

i currently feed pinheads and am amazed on the appetite of this little critters .. and am talking about the frogs 

one of my tricolors ate 3 pinheads in 5 minutes with out any problem ..and they were not very small ..:

i also have normal flys for my retf ..


as adults do they eat flys ?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Yes.....you really should email those college professors that I sent you in that link.

You need to culture flightless fruit flies as the staple...Crickets are a lot more work to culture and springtails, while very useful, cannot be a sole source for frog diets.

You are going to need to supplement your feeder insects with both a powdered calcium and a powdered vitamin supplemtent or else you are going to have serious health problems with all your frogs.

This is why the fruit fly is the best feeder insect as the powder sticks really well and they are so easy to culture....


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

i have supplements and i use them for my other reptiles ...
and i will use them on my frogs also .. don't worry ..


eventually am gonna culture FF i already started capturing them but its a slow proses given that the weather is not so hot yet ..

in the mean wile for the time being i will feed pinheads and springtails (dusted )
..

what about the normal flys ?

do the make good food for adults because is very easy for me to have access to fly's 

i harvest them from bait shops as larvae and they turn into fly's after the metamorphosis ..


and that is my RED EYE TREE FROG'S main diet ..


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

by "normal fly" do you mean house flies, aka musca domestica. house flies sound a lot harder to work with then flightless fruit flies, because you have to go collect them, and they also fly. house flies are a lot bigger then FFs so I don't know if your tricolors will accept them or not. if your going to collect these house flies as larva, dusting aside, you can just feed out as larva as long as they aren’t going to be the staple food.


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

there is one theory that fly larvae can survive the acid in the stomach of the animal and then feed of it until its ready to metamorphosis into a fly ..

in result killing the animal host 

i have seen documentaries and its true ..

fly's like the horse fly does that with the horses...


care to discuss this ?


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

there is one theory that fly larvae can survive the acid in the stomach of the animal and then feed of it until its ready to metamorphosis into a fly ..

in result killing the animal host 

i have seen documentaries and its true ..

fly's like the horse fly does that with the horses...


care to discuss this ?


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

On a side note, I have spoken with a few respectable breeders (and zoos) who use pinheads as the staple of their diet, with proper supplementation of course. So while variety is optimal, FF's may not be required.. but certainly a great and reliable backup food source to have on hand.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Corpus Callosum said:


> On a side note, I have spoken with a few respectable breeders (and zoos) who use pinheads as the staple of their diet, with proper supplementation of course. So while variety is optimal, FF's may not be required.. but certainly a great and reliable backup food source to have on hand.


True enough Mike....SO much more time and $ intensive to culture crix though.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

And way more smelly! A great method to stay single  .


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

guys all am saying is that .. its very easy for me to find and hatch normal flys instead of culturing Fruit Flys ..

so if in the future i feed my frogs springtails normal flys and crickets all dusted with vitamins and calcium ..wil it be ok ?

i don't see any reason why not .. but am asking people that know better than me ..


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

FFs larva are routinely eaten by darts and so far I haven't herd of anyone claiming that they killed a frog yet. I would feel safe about house fly larva as well, as long as its not a parasitic fly I wouldn't be overly concerned about this.

IF your tricolors will take house flies then your line up of food sounds acceptable. it also sounds like more work then what I am doing, but you can only use what’s available to you. 

If you had Terribilis you would be hard pressed keeping them going on a staple of FF and most people in fact are using crickets or cockroaches as their staple food. so despite all of our urging for you to find flightless FFs your not being that radical in feeding your tricolors crickets.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

basshummper said:


> FFs larva are routinely eaten by darts and so far I haven't herd of anyone claiming that they killed a frog yet.


My frogs ALL get FF larva once a week. I have been getting better eggs and larger cluches since i have started doing it...
Brian


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## no_one (Oct 14, 2008)

i will culture frut flys ...

but just to know and understand the frogs needs am asking this ..


the fly's are those green shinny ones .. don't know if they are parasitic as you said .. but am concerned about it ..


does anyone here feed normal flys instead of fruit fly's to their frogs ?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

basshummper said:


> If you had Terribilis you would be hard pressed keeping them going on a staple of FF and most people in fact are using crickets or cockroaches as their staple food..


 
It seems there's never an absolute, I guess.

I think Scott Menigoz told me he raises all of his Terribs on a staple of FF and I can personally attest to their size and health.

and they are producing for him......


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