# Self sustaining viv



## Landon (Oct 13, 2009)

I know its been talked about before, but I cant seem to find the right search combo to get some current information. It doesnt look like there has been any recent conversation about it, so I figured Id bring it up again considering Im planning my build right now.

I remember a long time ago some one (I believe it was Ben C, but its been a lot of years ) built a viv with a divider with a refuge area for microfauna. I couldnt find the link, but if any one runs across it, it was a great read, and Id appreciate you linking it up for me  

Id like to create somehting like he did (as far as concept), but in a display vivarium. Ive always been a somewhat of a naturalist (just not to the extreme), and would like to design/build my viv as close to nature as possible. One of the things Im really interested in is micro fauna, especially in the form of beneficial creatures, wether they be cleaners, food items, or better yet, both  I see there are tons of the critters more readily available than they were in my last stay in the hobby. Im just unsure of the right way to go about building something where these animals can thrive along with a few frogs. 

To get a little more detailed, Im building up a 110 gallon (48x18x~30) viv. Im looking to try and provide a diverse environment for as much fauna as I can, so I can observe life on as many levels as possible. Im into the reef hobby as well, and one of the most enjoyble parts of the hobby for me is trying to get the set up to be as self sufficiant as possible. Along with the display animals (corals, fish, frogs in this instance) I try and provide the ideal environment for all the critters being housed, wether they be snails, crabs, shrimp, worms, copepods, etc... Im striving to achieve that with this vivarium build as well.

I guess in the end, Id like to see all angles of the life cycle with minimal interaction from me. I plan to keep the vivarium very lightly stocked so that even feeding will be as minimal as possible (I will still be feeding regularly to keep the frogs from annhilating the fauna populations, add supplements to their diet, and diversify the available foods), and Ill probably try and choose a type of frog that can be somewhat efficient at breeding without me removing eggs/tads/etc. 

Ive got a lot more ideas, but Im scared if I put them all into detail as this thread will get rather boring, to the point of being overlooked, quickly  So, Id like to leave everything open for discussion, and see what every one can think of for ideas of how to achieve this, or why it should(nt) be attempted. 

I guess in summary, Id like to discuss different microfuna, what they need to thrive, and how to achieve it in a vivarium that can be pleasing to the eye.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It was Ben Eiben and this is the thread you are thinking about http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/3995-new-set-up.html 

I believe there are some test terraria out there that are currently successful but these setups may require several years before issues show up in the frogs (in the worst case scenario)... 

Ed


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## Landon (Oct 13, 2009)

^ Thanks for the link Ed. That was definitely the thread I was remembering. I wish Ben wouldnt have had to take it down, so I could see how well it was doing after all this time. 

What types of long term problems do you think could come from this in the frogs? Like stated, I plan to still add food, mainly so I can supplement the food items that I add, in hopes to ensure good helth, and a balanced diet. I have also been thinking about gut-loading, or leaving some type of nutritious food in the viv for the microfauna. This could also help me control the feeding zones, and spread out the foraging oppertunites. In the end, I thought this may be the best way to draw the animals out to be looking for food all the time...since food would be available all the time.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Landon said:


> ^ Thanks for the link Ed. That was definitely the thread I was remembering. I wish Ben wouldnt have had to take it down, so I could see how well it was doing after all this time.
> 
> What types of long term problems do you think could come from this in the frogs? Like stated, I plan to still add food, mainly so I can supplement the food items that I add, in hopes to ensure good helth, and a balanced diet. I have also been thinking about gut-loading, or leaving some type of nutritious food in the viv for the microfauna. This could also help me control the feeding zones, and spread out the foraging oppertunites. In the end, I thought this may be the best way to draw the animals out to be looking for food all the time...since food would be available all the time.


You should contact markbudde here on the forums as to my knowledge, I think he has taken a self sustaining enclosure further than any one else. 

If you are supplementing with dusted food item(s) and the microfauna is housed in a calcium containing substrate then you should be good. Brent Brock has kept his frogs in this manner for a number of years and I've been working along those lines as well (but need a lot more time before I'm comfortable with what I've been seeing). 

Ed


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## Darmon (Feb 25, 2009)

What calcium containing substrate do you suggest?


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Hi Landon. I wrote a bit about self sustaining terrarium design a while back.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/25846-self-sustaining-terrariums-depth.html

I have experimented a bit since then, and while a I think that totally self sustaining terrarium is not feasible (ie only adding air, water and light), I _think_ is entirely possible to feed your terrarium bug food. In essence, your whole terrarium becomes a giant culture of woodlice, springtails, mites and other small microfauna. So is it completely self sustaining? No. Is it fly-free? Yes.

The two largest concerns are 1) is the terrarium big enough? and 2) are the bug nutritious enough?

1) Is the terrarium bug enough? In my experience, a 55 gallon terrarium is probably big enough for a pair of thumbnails. You will need to make sure that the substrate has a lot of surface area for maximum bug production. My tank has enough leaf litter/substrate that the invertebrate population gets over eaten, but at smaller populations it tends to stay in the soil away from my frogs. I just did a survery of the microfauna in my tank last week and found that I still have at least 4 species of springtails, 1 species of woodlice and once species of amphipod. Whatever you end up doing, make sure that the tank is seeded for at least 6 weeks (hopefully longer) before adding the frogs. This will give the microfauana a chance to sufficiently populate the tank with reproductive adults and establish sustainable populations.

2) Are the bugs nutritious enough? This is a serious problem. We just don't know enough about the nutritional content of soil microfauna. Vitamin deficiencies can present themselves when it is too late to correct, so I get very nervous when I quit dusting my food. That is why I cannot say that it is possible, only that it is likely possible. After letting my frogs go fly-free for a while, I usually throw in some dusted flies to ease my mind. Some day I intend to set up a controlled experiment, where I never feed a dusted fly and see how it turns out. That day has yet to come.

I feel pretty comfortable saying that even with ~10 species of microfauana in my tank, the frogs would still become vitamin deficient without supplements. I suspect that vitamin A and D are the biggest concerns but that is just a guess. I suspect that woodlice are sufficiently high in calcium as a supplement to the frogs, but I can't confirm this, nor can I confirm that the calcium is in a useable form. To supplement the frogs with vitamins, I added vitamin loaded insect food to the viv. I've recently begun looking at Repashy gutload as possible gut load for the bugs. Before that, I was making my own by mixing dogfood with vitamin supplements. I then put the food on three different pieces of drift wood and spray it down. Within 24 hours the bugs will migrate to the food and the frogs will learn the good hunting spots. The food will eventually mold over and become covered in even more bugs. Springtails are likely very capable of being gutloaded, so the vitamins then get into the frogs bellies. The frogs also seems to end up ingesting a significant amount of the gutload directly, in their voracious consumption of the small bugs crawling all over it. One concern I have with this method is that the gutload might be toxic to the microfauna and reduce the microfauna population. I am doing some experiments right now to see just how toxic it is, but in the mean time I usually throw some dog food, fish food and yeast into the substrate about once every 10 days to keep the microfauana population booming.

In conclusion I would like to remind you that this is all speculative. I've never grown a frog from froglet to reproductive adult without supplementing it with dusted fruit flies, but I hope to in the future. Any experimenting you want to do will advance our understanding of what is possible.


Hope this helps,
Mark


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Darmon said:


> What calcium containing substrate do you suggest?


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...substrate-thread.html?highlight=ultimate+clay


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Who dusts the food in the wild for the Critters?

If you have a natural enviroment which replicates the Natural enviroment would you really need to dust the Food?

Is their any scientific support to prove either way or as someone stated "it is just to ease your mind"?


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## Landon (Oct 13, 2009)

Wow, Mark, Thanks for the awesome reply! I read the thread you linked, but dont have the time right now to fully emmerse myself in all the info. Between the discussion from that thread, and all the links in it, there should be plenty of reading to keep me busy for a while.

I would like to note though, that I shoudnt be calling what I want to do a "self sustaining viv". I do plan to add food for the sake of supplementing. Id just like to have the tank as self sufficient as possible, as IMO, thats the closest thing to nature. The idea that I feed my microfauna, just makes sense to me, and the fact that there are other folks who have tested foods (and soils) to try and aid those populations is incredible to me. I hope to take a lot from those threads youve linked, and hope at some point I can bring some experience to the table on the subject. 

FWIW, The tank I am planning is a 110H from all glass. Its 48x18x29, and I plan to have a relatively small water feature, with a lot of soil of varying depths, some covered in moss, but most covered with leaf littler. The way Im placing the wood in the tank will give me extra spaces to create "compost caves" or protected leaf litter areas, where the microfauna could find some refuge from the frogs even at the surface. Those spots will also allow me to add food items for the microfauna which even if they mold over, wont detract from the beauty of the tank (allthough, I find beauty in all aspects of nature, even death), which will probably keep it more interesting/acceptable to my co-workers  

My initial thought is to have a small group (1.2 or 2.2) of thumbs or pumilio. It should be fairly easy for me to find balance with sort of ratio of frogs to space, but Im sure Ill be changing a lot of my current plans by the time this project really takes off. 

Oh, and one more thing. Its funny to me (and also sad because I must be partially an idiot) that I searched out this subject before posting the thread and couldnt find much. Ive been pointed to some great conversation on the subject from this board, and there are 5 "similar threads" linked at the bottom of the page. I couldnt find any 

Thanks again, and of course more dicussion/information is always welcome!


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## Landon (Oct 13, 2009)

jpstod said:


> Who dusts the food in the wild for the Critters?
> 
> If you have a natural enviroment which replicates the Natural enviroment would you really need to dust the Food?
> 
> Is their any scientific support to prove either way or as someone stated "it is just to ease your mind"?



jpstod,
I think you bring up a valid point about no one dusting in the wild, but my question is, How do I "replicate the natural enviroment" to the extent that the food items are equally as nutritious as in the wild? 

There is definitely scientific proof that deems nutrition is a neccesity for good health. I dust for peace of mind that my frogs are getting a fair chance at that nutrition.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

jpstod said:


> Who dusts the food in the wild for the Critters?
> 
> If you have a natural enviroment which replicates the Natural enviroment would you really need to dust the Food?
> 
> Is their any scientific support to prove either way or as someone stated "it is just to ease your mind"?


In the natural environment, the frogs are part of a complex food web and eat a large variety of organisms. Those organisms have eaten and sequestered nutrients from and even larger amount of plants and animals and fungus. In your vivarium there is not anywhere nearly the variety of food as found in nature, and I don't now think it is feasible to replicate it in the terrarium, short of "gutloading" the microfauna. Of course the only way to prove it is to put a frog in the viv and see how long it survives. 

For a hint at the natural diets of these frogs you might want to check out:
Journal of Herpetology
Mar 2009 : Volume 43 Issue 1
Diet of the Andean Frog Ranitomeya virolinensis (Athesphatanura: Dendrobatidae)
Mercedes Valderrama-Vernaza, Martha Patricia RamÍrez-Pinilla, VÍctor H. Serrano-Cardozo
pg(s) 114–123

Some highlights of the paper include:
By prey number.
85% mites.
5% springtails
3.5% ants
2% beetle larvae

By prey volume
25% mites
26% ants
10% beetles larvae
11% caterpillars
6.5% springtails


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Well thanks to you all for all this info. one of the best reads in awhile. after reading through this, i think i will be trying this with my 80 gal bowfront. *sorry for stealing the idea Landon*

dont wanna hijack, just contibute
1. do you guys think this would only work with thumbnails or smaller frogs due to the size of micro fauna and such?

2. Would it be ethical to see how the frogs would grow without dusting or no? i think with enough prey item differences and such, dusting wouldnt be nessary? (could never spell that word, sorry)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

markbudde said:


> I feel pretty comfortable saying that even with ~10 species of microfauana in my tank, the frogs would still become vitamin deficient without supplements. I suspect that vitamin A and D are the biggest concerns but that is just a guess.



I would agree that A, D3 and E are probably going to be the biggest concerns with the enclosures. 



markbudde; said:


> I suspect that woodlice are sufficiently high in calcium as a supplement to the frogs, but I can't confirm this, nor can I confirm that the calcium is in a useable form.



I think this paper should help with the isopod question ScienceDirect - Journal of Structural Biology : Spatial distribution of calcite and amorphous calcium carbonate in the cuticle of the terrestrial crustaceans Porcellio scaber and Armadillidium vulgare
but one should keep in mind that calcium doesn't do any good if the frogs' don't have sufficient D3 to allow them to metabolize it. 




markbudde; said:


> The food will eventually mold over and become covered in even more bugs.


Mark on a totally random thought that literally just popped into my head.. are you concerned that the fungus may contain aflatoxins? 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you can locate a copy this is also a good breakdown of a dendrobatid diet JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

and SpringerLink - Journal Article

Ed


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## decev (Dec 3, 2009)

markbudde said:


> Hi Landon. I wrote a bit about self sustaining terrarium design a while back.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/25846-self-sustaining-terrariums-depth.html
> 
> One concern I have with this method is that the gutload might be toxic to the microfauna and reduce the microfauna population. I am doing some experiments right now to see just how toxic it is, but in the mean time I usually throw some dog food, fish food and yeast into the substrate about once every 10 days to keep the microfauana population booming.
> ...


Hello,

I've never kept any frogs before, but the concept of a semi self-sustaining vivarium is really intriguing to me. I've read all I could about the concept. Some day when I get some free time I'll actually put one together, but in the mean time I still want to learn more.

My eventual goal is like you've mentioned: a vivarium with the only input besides light, etc is bugfood. I also would want to have some fish in there as well, but I have no idea how much microfauna fish would consume, assuming enough fall into the water in the first place. Anyway, that's off topic.

In the meantime, before I try to do any of that, I want to do some experimentation. I'm thinking something like some soda-bottle terrariums without any vertibrates at all, just to see what kind of success I can have with the microfauna alone. 

Anyone have any concepts to try out, such as that calcium-loading idea? What about medium-fauna (I don't know what to call it. I mean like crickets/roaches/mealy bugs, etc)? 
Do you think that kind of arthropod would be sustainable in a vivarium-type of situation?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

decev said:


> Anyone have any concepts to try out, such as that calcium-loading idea? What about medium-fauna (I don't know what to call it. I mean like crickets/roaches/mealy bugs, etc)?
> Do you think that kind of arthropod would be sustainable in a vivarium-type of situation?


Check this thread out: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...substrate-thread.html?highlight=ultimate+clay


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

markbudde said:


> Some highlights of the paper include:
> By prey number.
> 85% mites.
> 5% springtails
> ...


That simply can't be right -- I don't see fruit flies mentioned once in that lineup! Maybe they should recheck their data...


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> That simply can't be right -- I don't see fruit flies mentioned once in that lineup! Maybe they should recheck their data...


Yeah, that bothered me too. They also didn't say what supplements and color enhancers they were using.


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## iljjlm (Mar 5, 2006)

What kind of mites do they eat? Most are microscopic.
Dave


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

If you look at the data, mites make up 85% of the number of items ingested, but only 25% of the volume. I guess that confirms that they are pretty tiny!


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## iljjlm (Mar 5, 2006)

My guess is that Ranitomeya virolinensis is a tiny frog. I have some really tiny(smallest springtail size) white bugs in my Bicolors viv that are going to town a piece of driftwood, but they won't even touch them as food. 

Do you know of any studies like that one but done with a tinc size frog?

Dave


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## decev (Dec 3, 2009)

So it's been established that you can't feasibly create a real self-sustaining vivarium to house vertebrates. I'm wondering how possible it is to make a self-sustaining vivarium to house invertebrates. This should require more than 10x less resources, and so I would think it should be possible.

I want to try this. It would not only be a fun experiment by itself, but it would help give real data to this problem, maybe something like 1 plant of size x can support y amount of microfauna biomass.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this? Are there any plants that grow/die particularly fast compared to others? Any inverts besides pilllbugs and springtails that people have found beneficial to their living vivarium? I think I'll also try a water version, maybe with water fleas.

This is only tangentially related to dart frogs, so I'll go away after I start this experiment and maybe take it to the vivarium forums. I just thought this was a relevant topic to ask on, and wanted to see if anyone else had any ideas on this.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

seeing the numbers vs volume of prey itms consumed is great, thanks Mark. They really have to work to make those mites and springtails worth it. Convenient that in a self sustaining viv situation, I would think those two prey items would abound with the most abundance. I also think encouraging fungal growth on the inhabied side of the viv would encourage more of the microfauna to spen more time there, vs only the compost side. I reall love this concept.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

decev said:


> So it's been established that you can't feasibly create a real self-sustaining vivarium to house vertebrates.
> 
> .


 I don't think thats true, I think what has been established is no one has tried for a long term and the majority are not willing to try it out of fear of lossing inhabitants


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## decev (Dec 3, 2009)

jpstod said:


> I don't think thats true, I think what has been established is no one has tried for a long term and the majority are not willing to try it out of fear of lossing inhabitants


I was thinking of a thread I remember seeing but don't have right now from a mailing list where a poster named Brent estimated it would take at least a walk-in closet's worth of ground to support frogs on light/air/water alone.

That's what I want to try here, just light/air/water. No other food.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

At some point sources of Food would have to be introduced prior to adding the Inhabitants and allowed to establish a colony


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## decev (Dec 3, 2009)

Yes, you're right. I would have establish a breeding colony first before hand. Not counting the original food source, only light/air/water


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

decev said:


> I was thinking of a thread I remember seeing but don't have right now from a mailing list where a poster named Brent estimated it would take at least a walk-in closet's worth of ground to support frogs on light/air/water alone.
> 
> That's what I want to try here, just light/air/water. No other food.


You are going in all probability going to have problems with D3 over time as the effectiveness of the lights is a problem and they have to be within a certain distance from the frogs as well as changed on a routine basis (and this is also harder as the frogs in the wild attempt to reduce to avoid direct exposure to UVB (http://people.oregonstate.edu/~blaustea/pdfs/HanBiotropica2007.pdf) 

As a further complication, you are going to need a lot of space to be able to support a large variety of invertebrate fauna for the frogs, the reason you need the variety is due to variations in nutritional levels ranging from calcium to carotenoids). 

That discussion with Brent would be in the frognet archives...


Ed


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## decev (Dec 3, 2009)

Yeah that's why I want to try it for just invertebrates to see how possible that is. I'm mostly interested in seeing how much of a gap there is between a self-sustaining frog enclosure and what is actually possible.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

decev said:


> Yeah that's why I want to try it for just invertebrates to see how possible that is. I'm mostly interested in seeing how much of a gap there is between a self-sustaining frog enclosure and what is actually possible.


Even is a verticle ten, one can initially get a very high density of invertebrates.. this density declines as the system matures and populations become balanced. After an IAD in one of the late night night discussions, I think it was mentioned that it might be premature to consider an enclosure mature before it had been running a year.. 

Ed


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> That simply can't be right -- I don't see fruit flies mentioned once in that lineup! Maybe they should recheck their data...



That is because the study was dealing with frogs in the wild and not in captivity. The abstract mentioned that they studied the gut content of the frogs noting things like the differences between the dry and wet seasons, male gut loads vs. female gut loads, etc. Apparently the percentage of flying fruit flies ingested in the wild are less than 2 percent of the frog's diet.

Dave


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

jpstod said:


> I don't think thats true, I think what has been established is no one has tried for a long term and the majority are not willing to try it out of fear of lossing inhabitants


An easy way to do this without any real risk to the frogs, would be to monitor the frogs by weight. Harbor Freight has cheap scales that could be purchased for easy peace of mind. Weigh the frogs in a capture cup at the initial transfer and then capture and weigh the frogs periodically. If a frog is not doing well or is not getting enough food they will begin dropping weight. Call and end to the experiment and feed / dust periodically from that point on.

Dave


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

davecalk said:


> That is because the study was dealing with frogs in the wild and not in captivity.


Hi Dave, my comment was pure sarcasm.


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> Hi Dave, my comment was pure sarcasm.


Hi Ron,

In the words of special agent Maxwell Smart, "Missed it by that much." Must be the waxy buildup in my ears. Reading it in that light, your comment was pretty funny.


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