# Smuggling related thoughts



## OneTwentySix (Nov 11, 2004)

(I was watching the exchanges going on in Sardaukar's recent thread, and started to reply, but then I realized it'd probably be best to make a new post, as the reply was more on the situation rather than the "incident." Anyhow, just a few thoughts.)

One of the problems we get in the hobby is the fact that there's such a fine line between the harmless "illegal" frogs, and the smuggling, which is extremely harmful. I don't think anyone would argue against the fact that smuggling is bad for everyone (except the smugglers), due to all the habitat and population damages incurred, but on the opposite extreme, you've got the frogs that are technically illegal but were obtained through legal and harmless means, and I don't think many people would really argue against this. 

What exactly is the best course to go? The only way to ensure that smuggling stops is to police the community and outlaw every single illegal or potentially illegal animal, and that's absurd, impractical, and potentially immoral. Somewhere between accepting everything and nothing is the solution, but it's difficult to find that happy medium when it's so hard to prove that a frog really was legally obtained.

I'm sure Sardaukar's frogs are legitimate, and whatever my feelings against smuggling are, they don't extend to the offspring or their owners, ignoring the complications the F1s bring into the problem. But all this talk about smuggling just brought a few thoughts to mind. I also realize this has probably been beaten to death several times before, but what are the thoughts out there about what we can do to discourage smuggling? And while I know that very few of us (I hope) would knowingly purchase smuggled frogs, there are people out there that would willingly cooperate in the wholesale destruction of acres of habitat of endangered frogs, just to get the one that no one else has. As a community and as individuals we all share responsibility in the consequences that our hobby has on the natural world. There's got to be something we can do, even if it's minor. Any thoughts?


----------



## ChrisMc (Mar 7, 2004)

*sardaukar thread*

pm, it was at least a nice pic of a rarely photographed frog.


----------



## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

the only difference between 'smuggling' and 'legal' frogs is how they were brought into a country. smuggling is basicly importing without permits or importing into a country where that frog is illeagle to own, hence it (and the frog) being illeagle.

an example.
i could goto guatamala (if i had the money to afford it  ), BUY some frogs from a frog farm, and then hide them in a suitcase in a small container when returning home to the usa. if not caught, i would have successfully smuggled them into the coutry.

it'd do no harm to the environment or wild population, as they would have been captive bred in a frog farm.

smuggleing doesen't have anything to do with how the frogs were collected, so you can't say its harmful in anyway. and if it wasen't for collecting frogs (regardless of thier rarity or how they were brought home) we woulden't have a hobby.


----------



## VTHokie (Jun 28, 2005)

> smuggleing doesen't have anything to do with how the frogs were collected, so you can't say its harmful in anyway. and if it wasen't for collecting frogs (regardless of thier rarity or how they were brought home) we woulden't have a hobby.


I agree, but I am sure that illegal collecting goes on as well and that is something I wish we could stop.


----------



## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

yes, illeagle collecting is a different sstory.

but, what would you deam as illeagle collecting?

afaik, no dart frogs are on the endangered species list yet so it isen't illeagle to collect any frogs (granted your not in a wildlife preserve collecting them or on other protected land)


----------



## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Just because a species is not on an endangered species list does not make collecting them legal. The legality of collecting wildlife is up to the nations (and subunits therof) where the wildlife resides. For example, in the US, Ring Billed Gulls (aka Seagulls) are most assuredly not endangered in any form, shape or fashion, it is illegal to trap, bait, blast or otherwise kill or collect them.


----------



## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

actually, Ring Billed Gulls are currently protected because between 1850 and 1920 they were over hunted nearly to extinction. most protected species in the us were at one time nearly extinct (and never takin off the list) or have other signifigent value, like being state birds or whatever.

as for forign countries, i got no clue. unless somebody here has done research on what frogs are protected by various countries and thus illeagle to collect and can post about them, we can't really define what frogs can and can't be legally collected.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip"actually, at one time in the early 1900s seagulls were over hunted almost to extinction. hence why it is now illeagle to kill/whatever them"endsnip

That and the fact they were considered to be doing a valuable service by eating garbage. 

But lets extend this thought a little further with respect to the thread. So because none of the frogs are on the endangered species list (but how about the IUCN Red List? (which lists D. lehmanni (and a couple of others) as critically endangered due to restricted habitat)) so its okay to collect them until they are threatened or endangered and then protect them??? 

Back to your comment about smuggling FR frogs as being of little to no impact. Say for example a farm in CR (hypothetical here) rears granuliferus and you go and smuggle some back. How do we distinguish these frogs and thier off spring (if any) from the guy who goes there locates a population and fills every film canister in his possession? He comes back and makes the same claim but because he didn't take the same care with the frogs 75% of them die (this is not an unusal figure for smuggled animals often its much higher but due to the profit margin acceptable)... 

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

oops. edited the post while you were posting 

as i said, 'afaik'. which means 'as far as i know'. i diden't know that some were listed as endangered due to habitat. nor did i say its okay to collect them until thier threatened. i said collecting in general is harmless, if it wasen't for collecting we'd have no hobby. you can't suddenly go against collecting after supporting the hobby for...however long you've been in it. thats somewhat hypocritical.



as for the 2nd part of your post...
thats not a very good example. because regardless of wether a frog (or any animal) was legally or illeagly collected, and regardless of wether it was legally or illeagly brought into the country, if all they say is it was CB or FR or WC, you have to believe that unless you can physically prove the person wrong. with that said, i got no clue how you could tell the difference in that example.

if i were to goto the local mountains and collect some red spotted newts, how could you tell they weren't captive bred if i told you they were? you'd have to physically come to my house and see i had no adults to breed. you can really only go with what somebody tells you unless you can physically prove them wrong.
pretty much the same in that frog example you gave.
pretty much the same with ANY animal in ANY trade.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

1st - I want to say that the comments to Sardaukar's post were completely out of line, and the members involved have been contacted. I have also apologized to Sardaukar and hope to see him back on the site and posting pictures. I don't want to see anyone saying animals are illegal without justification. Other countries have many species that we do not and many that are legal. We also have a number that are not talked about very often that are legal but are not well established in the hobby.

2nd - The stance of the site: Unless an illegal animal is up for sale and someone has ABSOLUTE proof it is illegal it will be allowed. The proper method to bring this up is to PRIVATELY contact a moderator or admin. Posting pictures or discussing such animals is allowed and I ask that everyone respect each other when doing so.

3rd - The legality of animals is different in every country, and many times people forget that Zoos and other institutions bring in many other animals. In some countries the Zoos work with the hobbiest directly so the chance of animals getting into the hobby are a bit greater. Even in this country some animals are considered legal yet they have never been legally imported into the hobby. Also these things change all of the time, and there are new frogs coming in all of the time. Frogs that were illegal yesterday may not be today.

4th - This can be a touchy conversation and I am going to ask up front that people keep the comments to the facts.


----------



## SAFrogGuy (Aug 24, 2006)

zaroba said:


> yes, illeagle collecting is a different sstory.
> 
> but, what would you deam as illeagle collecting?
> 
> afaik, no dart frogs are on the endangered species list yet so it isen't illeagle to collect any frogs (granted your not in a wildlife preserve collecting them or on other protected land)


I am not making a comment at all on anything other than the quote above. I would agree that it may not be illegal to collect frogs in many cases, but keep in mind that overcollecting is one of the things that has contributed in the past to species being added to the endangered species list. While I think it is great that we have captive lines of frogs to learn from, enjoy, and educate people with, I don't think collecting frogs from the wild, whether legal or not, would be something I'd want to do to excess.


----------



## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

of course not in excess.

why is it that whenever somebody mentions collecting, the first thing people think of is ecessive collecting?

thiers such a thing of non-excessive collecting. like the small amount of collecting that gets done to bring a new species into the hobby.


----------



## SAFrogGuy (Aug 24, 2006)

*collecting*

I agree there is proper collecting and excessive. I wasn't trying to imply that any collecting is bad, just bringing up the point that there needs to be a limit so we don't contribute to a declining population... But where do we draw the line on too much?


----------



## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

i'd say a proper amount would be a few dozen to a hundred of a species.
just enough to get enough breeding pairs into the community to start breeding and establish.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip"of course not in excess. 

why is it that whenever somebody mentions collecting, the first thing people think of is ecessive collecting? "endsnip

Because depending on the population, the species and the situation, even the removal of one male can take the population below the threshold of population surviviability. 
For example, there were some studies done with Terrapene that showed that the removal of a single male from a population was sufficient to drop it below the sustainable population levels. 

I'll follow up on some of the other comments later. 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

The way I see it is, there is no general right or wrong in smuggling. Things like money being the reason is generally wrong. If a person knows chyrtid is moving thru an area and there is no time for permit work to save a morph or species should he collect a couple dozen individuals just in case? I believe money is a reward in some people`s minds for keeping tabs on an area that a government cares nothing about but is to stubborn to release a few individuals for fear that a major corporation will profit from it. Is it right or wrong? Is it right for a government to let a species die because of habitat destruction and do nothing about it when they can?

General conditions leading to 75% mortality rate is unacceptable for any reason. The surviving individuals would do no good as a breeding group and you`d be better off letting them try and fend off chytrid. 

In raniers case that was just outright theft. Wrong in any case where an individual was working that closely w/ them. Something was being done. What happens if a disaster hits that area? And all of the mysteriosus where wiped out because we all had our eggs in one basket? Only time will tell.

We are talking about frogs, which can produce up to 700+ offspring a year from one pair in captivity. You can`t compare them to an animal that may take 20 years to reach sexual maturity and only lays a couple eggs a year. Maybe some populations of egg feeders from an area the size of my yard w/ only 20-30 breeding pairs, but most likely their habitat is on it`s way out thru progression or destruction as the reason for there small #`s and once that`s gone... 

I think 2 or 3 pair in the right hands in the right conditions could create a captive population sustainable in the hobby where there are enough individuals to keep most of these morphs going(minus the egg feeders possibly). It is too big of a project to be left in the hands of gov`t institutions which are funded by a government which doesn`t have their eye set on conservation(politically and financially). 1 or 2 terms of a presidency can loose all the funding necessary to sustain such a large project or overthrow of the gov`t in peru or surinam shutting everything down and destroying what`s left for coke fields, etc.. 

It is up to the people to spread the hobby and organize to maintain what we have available to us, which is being done thru this site and frogtracks. There are a lot of intelligent, perceptive people out there who can`t lend their talents to maintaining zoo collections but would do it better than any underpaid "worker"(I know there are a lot of dedicated individuals at zoos but just like everywhere else there are disgruntled employees and the division of labor breaks down in big institutions) if they were given access to some of these frogs. The reason i cite zoos is that they have access, although not the funding, to get there hands on things we cannot because they have credibility and channels of communication.

To sum up, there is no easy answer. There is no way to tell if ones actions lends to the good of the survival of a species/morph. Generally overcollecting isn`t an issue as much as the rapid change in the environment we are creating and the general loss of habitat from human encroachment. 1 road or resort in some of these places can loose a species or morph more easily than overcollecting in small restricted area populations. Overcollecting may leave a few individuals to re-establish a population, hotels and roads dont have room for frogs. roads can kill migrations of salamanders w/out even destroying the whole habitat.

I always wanted to get a team of scientists and hobbiests together that specialized in exports from areas which were going to be slashed and burned to put up resorts and roads etc. Kind of an exploration and removal team to go in weeks before the construction/destruction. Someone please take my idea who doesnt mind the red tape and hire me!


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "We are talking about frogs, which can produce up to 700+ offspring a year from one pair in captivity. You can`t compare them to an animal that may take 20 years to reach sexual maturity and only lays a couple eggs a year. "endsnip

As we are discussing wild populations it doesn't matter what the theoretical artifically enhanced reproductive rate of the animal is in captivity. It is the recruitment rate of the wild population that matters. The science behind it is the same so yes I can compare it. The difference in the time line to population extinction is what is different. The turtles will give the impression that the population is doing well for a longer period of time because of thier life span and the lack of recruitment will be hidden longer. All because you can find that species at the site doesn't mean that the population is a viable one. 

snip "I think 2 or 3 pair in the right hands in the right conditions could create a captive population sustainable in the hobby where there are enough individuals to keep most of these morphs going(minus the egg feeders possibly)."endsnip

The models do not support long term viability without major oversite for populations started with this few founders. For example, Bufo houstonensis has a median predicted survivorship of about 34 years in captivity if the population starts at 50 unrelated individuals. Given the way the populations are managed in the hobby with thier wide swings in popularity it paints a bleak future for the various species we work with..... 


snip "If a person knows chyrtid is moving thru an area and there is no time for permit work to save a morph or species should he collect a couple dozen individuals just in case"endsnip

I have a hard time seeing this as justification as the hobby in general isn't doing anything to manage chytrid in the frogs already in the hobby... 
This is a rationalization of an illegal activity and can be applied to all kinds of smuggling. For example, why not smuggle baby gorillas to keep them out of the bushmeat trade?? 


snip "General conditions leading to 75% mortality rate is unacceptable for any reason. The surviving individuals would do no good as a breeding group and you`d be better off letting them try and fend off chytrid."endsip

This is an acceptable loss for smugglers. Many smugglers have no concern about the long term welfare of the animal as it is the immediate profit margin that drives the act. Check the busts made in the various countries when smuggers are caught or check the well documented losses reported for the bird trade in the 1970s-1980s. 



snip " Generally overcollecting isn`t an issue as much as the rapid change in the environment we are creating and the general loss of habitat from human encroachment."endsnip

As a general statement this is a good one and this is correct as a general statement. The major cause of species loss is due to habitat loss however this is not universally true. 

snip "Overcollecting may leave a few individuals to re-establish a population, "endsnip

This is a big if as there are many factors that modify it. There is a minimal threshold for successful viability for a population. If it goes below this threshold then the chances of the population remaining viable in the wild are kind of like hitting the lottery. 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Allright now your really comparing apples and oranges. There is a chance w/ a couple frogs being smuggled in and it doing something to maintain the population(i still havent seen any proof that darts would succomb to inbreeding if the couple founding pairs were maintained well) but how many people can keep a baby gorilla? This topic is specifically about smuggling frogs. There is already a frogtracks and a forum for people who keep and successfully breed dendrobatids. If they are as advanced as we are w/ keeping baby gorillas and there is a gorilla tracks out there for people who keep and breed them let me know. Their range in a night is bigger than most darts habitats. 
So your saying since we MAY not be able to form a maintainable population we shouldnt try if they are on their way out? We should just let them fade into extinction? You are generalizing that every shipment is resulting in this loss because those are the only ones caught AND reported. You dont think europeons aren`t going down to collect a dozen individuals from each site and sending them back for captive breeding and not getting caught. If someone will pay $500 a frog and someone can come up from Brazil w/ a dozen frogs and bring $6k back to Brazil so someone can have the only 12 breeders of a new morph it`s being done. My mom works for customs and i get all the juicy stories. Some of these frogs are brought back by families on vaca, confiscated and given to a local keeper or zoo since they dont know how to care for them. 
You cite stuff that makes the news and i cite stuff that i hear thru other sources which dont make the news.
All i`m trying to say is it is not as black and white as people think. There is no smuggling is bad or smuggling is good, there is only smuggling is bad/"good" if...
And we may never know the if. If 75% die its bad, that`s obvious. If the habitat is lost and the remaining smuggled individuals form a captive, sustainable population than it was good. Unfortunately the good is only visible in the future, the bad is quite evident now.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Allright now your really comparing apples and oranges."endsnip

Actually I am not comparing apples and oranges. As I pointed out above that rational could be used to justify any live animal smuggling and I used the gorillas to demonstrate that point. 

snip "There is a chance w/ a couple frogs being smuggled in and it doing something to maintain the population"endsnip 

Based on what? 

snip "(i still havent seen any proof that darts would succomb to inbreeding if the couple founding pairs were maintained well)"endsnip

Given that the amphibians studied so far follow the population models, I would be highly surprised if Dendrobatid frogs were any different particuarly as we do not have any gene flow in the population and there are no evolutionary pressures to maintain fitness. In any case when we are dealing with population management to assume otherwise can result in the long-term non-viability of the population. In other words, if we don't plan for it now, it will be too late. 

snip "but how many people can keep a baby gorilla?"endsnip

How is this important to the point I was making about the rational? 


snip "This topic is specifically about smuggling frogs."endsnip

And to accept that the rational about the smuggling is only applicable to frogs would be wrong.. 

snip "There is already a frogtracks and a forum for people who keep and successfully breed dendrobatids. If they are as advanced as we are w/ keeping baby gorillas and there is a gorilla tracks out there for people who keep and breed them let me know."endsnip

There is, it is called a studbook and is admistered by the AZA Primate TAG. (There are actually two one for Europe and one for USA but the coordinate the genetic management of the gorillas on both of those continents as well as other Zoos through those programs). Anyone who legally possesses gorillas can participate. There are also studbooks for a lot of other species such as radiated tortoises that have private people working with the Zoos to manage the populations. Most private people refuse to participate because they may have to put an animal on loan to further the genetic variation within the captive population and they don't want to move thier animals around. 

snip "Their range in a night is bigger than most darts habitats. "endsnip

This doesn't have any bearing on the rational used above. 

snip "So your saying since we MAY not be able to form a maintainable population we shouldnt try if they are on their way out?"endsip


I don't think that I said that all. 

snip " We should just let them fade into extinction?"endsnip

I don't think I said that either. 

snip "You are generalizing that every shipment is resulting in this loss because those are the only ones caught AND reported."endsnip

And the ones who aren't caught and have 80, 90 or even 100% mortality also aren't reported.... 

snip "You dont think europeons aren`t going down to collect a dozen individuals from each site and sending them back for captive breeding and not getting caught."endsnip

I don't think I said that either... 


Isnip "f someone will pay $500 a frog and someone can come up from Brazil w/ a dozen frogs and bring $6k back to Brazil "endsnip

Pretty much all of that 6K doesn't go back to Brazil. It stays in Europe or the USA. Unless there has been some other major change, its probably about $50 that stays in Brazil (and I am estimating high). 

snip ". My mom works for customs and i get all the juicy stories."endsip

And I see the ones that are reported as well as getting the confiscated animals here or see pictures of them as they are placed out in Zoos here as well as reading the USF&W notices of the confiscations. 

snip "You cite stuff that makes the news and i cite stuff that i hear thru other sources which dont make the news. "endsnip

I am not commenting on the stuff that makes the news, I am commenting on the stuff that makes into the USF&W reports, the various Taxonomy Management Group (TAG) list serves and the other reports. If the animal is confiscated in the USA, then there is a paper trail attached to that animal. If you are saying that the animals are then given away to local people without paperwork releasing those animals to the private sector, a person or persons will be violating federal procedures and laws regarding confiscated property.... 

snip " There is no smuggling is bad or smuggling is good, there is only smuggling is bad/"good" if... "endsnip

All smuggling hurts someone. If nothing else it devalues the value of the animal resulting in loss revenue in the country (often third world or emerging) where it originated resulting in a lowered valuation of the habitat. This attitude causes the people where the animal originates to place little value on the animal and land so when they want to slash and burn to put in a soybean field, the soybeans are the best option even though if they realized the value of the products of that land (animals included) it could produce more money per year than the soybeans (or other crops). 

Ed


----------



## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

> Pretty much all of that 6K doesn't go back to Brazil. It stays in Europe or the USA. Unless there has been some other major change, its probably about $50 that stays in Brazil (and I am estimating high).


That's a really good point that hasn't been brought up yet. Whose resources are these? Taking something from one country and bringing it to another without giving something to the country it was taken from is stealing. smugglers profit by stealing from the poor and selling frogs to the rich. There isn't anyway to justify or rationalize this, at least not to me.


----------



## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

There are two different debates going on here for some reason. The first is about collection of animals without proper permits and the second is about captive breeding conservation. Yes, there is some overlap, but implying that smuggling may aid the success of captive breeding conservation programs by bringing in undocumented animals with no credible collection data is a specious claim at best.

Marcos


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I give up, i dont have time to debate this whole thing. I`m talking about a family from brazil that came up to the states on vaca w/ 12 frogs and went back to brazil w/ 6k from frogs off their property/home whatever.
I`m not trying to justify 90% of the smuggling that goes on out there is good I`m just trying to keep people w/ an open mind about this. To say that 100% of the smuggling that goes on is bad is just close minded. No one can tell the future and these are very shaky times for the future of the environm

Given that the amphibians studied so far follow the population models, I would be highly surprised if Dendrobatid frogs were any different ent. 

have you ever been highly surprised ed?

snip "So your saying since we MAY not be able to form a maintainable population we shouldnt try if they are on their way out?"endsip 


I don't think that I said that all. 

snip " We should just let them fade into extinction?"endsnip 

I don't think I said that either. 

So what are you saying? A country wont allow export, the animals habitat is going to be destroyed, is there another alternative? Should we invade and try to liberate the frogs?


snip "You are generalizing that every shipment is resulting in this loss because those are the only ones caught AND reported."endsnip 

And the ones who aren't caught and have 80, 90 or even 100% mortality also aren't reported.... 

And the ones that make it and release offspring into the trade aren`t either. so there is a general success rate from 0% to 100%. For it to be "good" smuggling they need to get the success rate closer to 100%. How many pumilio do you think died from these farm raised shipments? What about legal shipments in the past before people started medicating?
Most of them died too.
I see most of the reason we are argueing. your argueing from the standpoint that their habitat wont degrade anymore and droughts and chytrid wont devastate their population and i`m argueing from the standpoint that their habitat is pretty much doomed and we dont have much time as the species morphs are dissappearing monthly.
I`m argueing for the small(possibly large) #`s of situations where impending doom is inevitable. If we try to deal w/ the red tape in a situation of drastic situations where time is important and chytrid is present we will loose.(and that was a bad shot about the hobby not doing anything about the chytrid in hobby collections when we cant even find more than 1/2 dozen vets in the country who have ever even seen a dart frog. Not everyone has a daily pickup for lab tests or a vet onhand. We can only do so much and don`t have people who can dedicate there life to organizing our resources. It is still a business for most larger breeders, not zoo run where we can cooperate w/ other breeders all over the country.) Thank God for people like Ron Gagliardo who actually go out and do something about it and can.


Isnip "f someone will pay $500 a frog and someone can come up from Brazil w/ a dozen frogs and bring $6k back to Brazil "endsnip 

Pretty much all of that 6K doesn't go back to Brazil. It stays in Europe or the USA. Unless there has been some other major change, its probably about $50 that stays in Brazil (and I am estimating high). 

see opening comments

snip " There is no smuggling is bad or smuggling is good, there is only smuggling is bad/"good" if... "endsnip 

All smuggling hurts someone. If nothing else it devalues the value of the animal resulting in loss revenue in the country (often third world or emerging) where it originated resulting in a lowered valuation of the habitat. This attitude causes the people where the animal originates to place little value on the animal and land so when they want to slash and burn to put in a soybean field, the soybeans are the best option even though if they realized the value of the products of that land (animals included) it could produce more money per year than the soybeans (or other crops). 

And if they make something illegal it increases the value, resulting in people, who will do anything for money, smuggling frogs whether they live or die. I didnt make the system but unfortunately that`s the eventual outcome until they are gone from the wild. A few well imported pairs would prevent this if it is easier and cheaper to get the frogs here through captive propagation. The truth of it is they can be bred in large enough #`s to satisfy the pet trade for 20-30 years till they are either extinct in the wild or we have maintained their habitat. Then they can be imported every few years in small #`s for new blood if they are still there. the increase in availability of cb darts would increase tourism for families wanting to go see where their frogs are from. It wouldnt devalue them it would be living advertisement for ecotourism. Pictures just dont do them justice :lol:


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> have you ever been highly surprised ed?


I don't know why, but I got a good laugh outta that. Other than that, I have nothing useful to contribute as i am sure I will just get myself in trouble


----------



## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> In raniers case that was just outright theft. Wrong in any case where an individual was working that closely w/ them. Something was being done. What happens if a disaster hits that area? And all of the mysteriosus where wiped out because we all had our eggs in one basket? Only time will tell.


Maybe I missed the context where this is coming from, but can you elaborate on this?


----------



## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

frogfarm said:


> I give up, i dont have time to debate this whole thing. I`m talking about a family from brazil that came up to the states on vaca w/ 12 frogs and went back to brazil w/ 6k from frogs off their property/home whatever.
> I`m not trying to justify 90% of the smuggling that goes on out there is good I`m just trying to keep people w/ an open mind about this. To say that 100% of the smuggling that goes on is bad is just close minded. No one can tell the future and these are very shaky times for the future of the environm


Aaron,

I would like it if you would continue in the discussion. I think it is an important issue, but like Kyle said, it is one that is controversial. I think you can expect a lot of resistance from many folks on this one, but I think that we should continue to talk about it.

I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but cannot think of an example where smuggling is good. I find condoning smuggling especially difficult now that there are businesses that focus on the sustainable breeding and exportation of F1 animals.

I think there is a cultural issue at work here as well. You are right that the hobby is a great resource that has yet to be harnessed -- there is some work going on in that direction. However, I do think it is a little much to think that we can whisk these animals out of the jungle via smugglers or get repatriated frogs caught by customs and run a viable captive breeding program. There are a lot of folks in these neotropical countries who do care and are trying to do what is best for their ecology and their frogs.

I don't think that we can sweep in their without a plan, grab a bunch of frogs, bring them back, indoctrinate them into a program, manage a viable population, and then expect to have enough genetic diversity in the stock to maintain a population that has ecological benefit or not to do more damage than good. Similarly, to allow what is smuggled to determine how conservation resources are allocated is like letting the tail wag the dog.

In order for these programs to succeed, there has to be a dialogue with the scientific and management authorities of these countries. In my mind, condoning smuggling for frogs that may or may not end up in a managed program undermines our ability to develop those relationships and have credibility. Similarly, it excludes the local conservation and academic talent and could very well alienate them. I think as an American I would be offended if a bunch of neotropical Barton Creek Salamander enthusiasts flew in and paid the locals in Austin to pillage those animals for their hobby and then rationalized it by saying that we weren't managing the stock or environment properly.

The supply and demand points that you bring up are certainly interesting. However, I don't think a "laissez fair" market is the answer. This creates an issue that is just as bad, influx of frogs that see an initial interest and cease to exist in viable amounts years later. I just don't think saying it is OK to covet something because it is illegal is a good answer. If the reason the animal cannot be exported is capricious, sure, it should be challenged -- but this challenge should come through dialogue and by engaging the responsible parties not through smuggling.

I think we in the American hobby are doing a good job of thinking about the issue. There certainly isn't a lot of clarity about what is legal and what isn't, but I think it is great that we are talking about it. I also think it can be done in a way that is respectful for everyone involved without either party storming off. I do think that individuals should expect some scrutiny if they post pictures of a frog that is very hard to get and has no clear record of ever being legally exported.

From reading your posts, I cannot determine what the benefits of smuggling might be. I agree about your comments regarding salvage collection of populations, but I cannot see how smuggling fits in here. Could you clarify?

Thanks,

Marcos


----------



## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

> I don't think that we can sweep in their without a plan, grab a bunch of frogs, bring them back, indoctrinate them into a program, manage a viable population, and then expect to have enough genetic diversity in the stock to maintain a population that has ecological benefit or not to do more damage than good.


I hate to hijack a thread but this is where, in my opinion, a responsible genetic management strategy needs to be deployed. 
Yes, we have a registry. 
No, we do not have a plan for effective maintenance of a genetic population. I mean, people are still advocating line breeding...

We need to form a group, write a proposal, have it peer reviewed, then deployed if we are going to have an effective captive breeding program that is created/maintained by hobbyists/researchers/zoos. Personally, I think this is the best way for us to do our small part in the conservation of these amazing animals. Obviously, we are going to lose diversity due to drift and lack of selection, but a sustainable harvest from the wild to refresh this can be successful at VERY SMALL NUMBERS! Surplus offspring could even be reintroduced (I figured I'd add this to an already controversial topic) in theory...

Anyway, gotta run, just thought I'd drop my $.02

~B


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I believe there are some things in the works around some of these ideas. 

In general we have only scratched the surface of this type of thinking and I honestly believe the hobby and etc will be drastically changing.


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

what i`m sayingg is i dont have time to draw up a plan, species are dying quickly and we dont have them anymore. smuggling strictly for the pet trade is wrong. sustainable management is necessary. i just dont have the time to debate my view. i have animals to feed and land to clear and wood to cut before winter. i just dont want everyone closing there minds to possible situations where it could save a species doomed w/in months. Ron Gagliardo recently brought back species in the nick of time from a cordilera being overrun by chytrid. if the paperwork didnt go thru what would be the difference if they died there or were brought back into captivity? for a stable pop of dartss 1 pair is only going to produce 2 offspring that survive to adulthood and produce or populations would double in months of time w/ only 4 offspring living, most offspring are food.
ranier had mysteriosus pairs thieved from the last known stand of them w/ under 100 breeding pairs left in the wild. they were then smuggled back to europe(thru the grape vine, dont know the actual truth. 
i`d love to debate this all nite but i have work to do. i`m sorry, meet me at mwff and we can chat. i may have a couple free hours by then. anyone close by want to earn a couple extra bucks? carpentry skills a plus but not necessary.


----------



## treefrog (Jan 23, 2005)

oups double post


----------



## treefrog (Jan 23, 2005)

Hi there,
I dont want to sound crazy but here is my thinking.

1-*There will always be smuggling* as long as there is people willing to pay for smuggled animals or animals item....this is something none of us could ever change, just look at elephant fences, bears ''vesicule billiaire'' (sorry I dont know the english word). As long as the profit is higher than the risk there will be smuggling...that is sad but it is part of human nature and if we want to do conservation we must do with it.

2- When taking into consideration point 1, *Is smuggling good?*
Well, we all know that smuggling can endangered species with overcollecting. But on the other hand....putting aside threads such as chytrid, deforestation....not the only way but surely the best way to do conservation is to flood the market. When it cost less to buy CB animals (even if they were smuggled in some countries) than freshly smuggled animals, smuggler will not find any market and will therefor stop smuggling. It is normal economy.
So my point is that if smuggled animals can fall in the hands of very good breeder and those breeder are able to flood the market.......That's perfect. In the long term, less animals would be smuggled than if those animals fall into hands of people who are not able to flood the market...so maybe we should not be ashamed when seeing a breeder with smuggled animals (of course, he must prove that it is for reproduction purpose).

The other option and the best one are project such as Understory entreprises and INIBICO that have understand that and are trying to flood the market before it is too late for the frogs (due to smuggling) but they are both in Peru....and there is still amny countries.

Just my way of thinking: smuggled animals, if they fall in the right hand will help conservation....and of course, overcollecting of animals is always bad.

All the best

P.S: Sorry for the bad english (i.e. I'm french canadian)


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Working through the posts... 

snip "Ron Gagliardo recently brought back species in the nick of time from a cordilera being overrun by chytrid. if the paperwork didnt go thru what would be the difference if they died there or were brought back into ca"endsnip

Just to be clear they would have moved several miles away and changed the paperwork. 

snip "what would be the difference if they died there or were brought back into captivity"endsnip 


From the point of the population in the wild? Nothing. It is the same thing. 

snip "for a stable pop of dartss 1 pair is only going to produce 2 offspring that survive to adulthood and produce or populations would double in months of time w/ only 4 offspring living, most offspring are food"endsnip

This is a common misconception when people think about animals in the wild. When you look at the population in the wild as a whole, there is nothing other than our fond wishes to ensure that a particular pair or pairs etc of an animal will produce young that reach reproductive age. For the population to continue, then each pair on average has to produce offspring(s). This means some produce none and others multiples. This is why there is a minimal threshold of animals to ensure a stable population. 

Snip"No, we do not have a plan for effective maintenance of a genetic population. I mean, people are still advocating line breeding... "endsnip

Depending on what you mean by a line this may be part of the way it has to be handled. (But we shouldn't rehash that here). 


snip "I`m talking about a family from brazil that came up to the states on vaca w/ 12 frogs and went back to brazil w/ 6k from frogs off their property/home whatever."endsnip

So with the whatever, this could be the local forest preserve, some else's land, etc... In any case this still doesn't deal with the idea that the removal of the frogs can be/is detrimental to the population. Given that the frogs are not evenly dispersed across the landscape removal of even a few frogs can be detrimental to the population but even worse, this purchasing of the frogs is what fuels the smuggling trade. 


snip "I`m not trying to justify 90% of the smuggling that goes on out there is good I`m just trying to keep people w/ an open mind about this. To "endsnip 

I have an open mind (contrary to some opinions...) but see above. 


snip "have you ever been highly surprised ed? "endsnip

Yep. But the models have held for everything from mammals to fish including reptiles and amphibians. The ones that don't work in the models are parthnogenic. Given that there aren't any parthnogenic dendrobatid frogs (or parthnogenic frogs in general), I would have to argue that the models are appliciable. 

snip "So what are you saying? A country wont allow export, the animals habitat is going to be destroyed, is there another alternative? Should we invade and try to liberate the frogs? "endsnip

I didn't say any of that either. There is another misconception here, change (aka destruction) of the habitat is automatically harmful to the animal involved. This is not the case, it depends on the changes to the habitat as well as many other items (such as R and K specialists (check the frognet archives for more discussion on those items). For a megacharismatic frog example look at the pumilio morphs that are inhabiting and spreading through coco plantations.. 


snip "And the ones that make it and release offspring into the trade aren`t either. so there is a general success rate from 0% to 100%. For it to be "good" smuggling they need to get the success rate closer to 100%. How many pumilio do you think died from these farm raised shipments? What about legal shipments in the past before people started medicating? 
Most of them died too. "endsnip

So how does this justify smuggling? 

snip "
I see most of the reason we are argueing. your argueing from the standpoint that their habitat wont degrade anymore and droughts and chytrid wont devastate their population and "endsnip

Where did you ever get that idea? I never said or implied any of that .... 

snip "i`m argueing from the standpoint that their habitat is pretty much doomed and we dont have much time as the species morphs are dissappearing monthly. "endsnip

Do you have any proof of that statement that morphs are disappearing monthly? So in the last three months three Dendrobatid morphs have been extirpated in the wild? 

snip "I`m argueing for the small(possibly large) #`s of situations where impending doom is inevitable."endsip

Doom is not inevitable. It is probable but not inevitable. Even when chytrid moves into an area, doom is not inevitable. Chytrid has been in the USA for more than 30 years and there is very little interest from the public to save leopard frogs, etc from the issue.

snip "If we try to deal w/ the red tape in a situation of drastic situations where time is important and chytrid is present we will loose."endsnip

This is not evident from any of the data. In fact your position that smuggling in this situation is more likely to cause the various goverments involved to prevent any export of the animals due to biopiracy and other economic loss issues. 


snip "(and that was a bad shot about the hobby not doing anything about the chytrid in hobby collections when we cant even find more than 1/2 dozen vets in the country who have ever even seen a dart frog. Not everyone has a daily pickup for lab tests or a vet onhand."endsip

Any vet can aquire the test kits and you can swab the frogs yourself. The vet can then send them in for testing (they are mailed). It isn't a low blow. As I said above, I find it hard for us to justify the smuggling in of frogs to "protect/save" them chytrid when we don't manage chytrid in the hobby... 
As for the vets, there are a lot more herp vets who have worked with amphibians than that... (See http://www.arav.org/USMembers.htm). In any case, the vet doesn't have to had to have worked with Dendrobatids before much less any frog to do some good. You need to find a vet who is either willing to work with you if you provide the correct information or to consult with a vet who has the correct information. Most vets at Zoos with herp collections will consult with other vets for free....


snip "We can only do so much"endsnip

A more correct assessment at this time is that we are pretty much doing nothing at all but maintaining the frog equivalent of the guppy as we are not managing genetic diversity, ensuring that the parental behaviors that typify these frogs are maintained (outside of egg feeders) and in many cases may not be maintaining representatives of pure species or distinct populations. 

snip " and don`t have people who can dedicate there life to organizing our resources. It is still a business for most larger breeders, not zoo run where we can cooperate w/ other breeders all over the country.) "endsnip

So the fact that we are not organized, justifies continueing in the same manner as we have been....? 

snip "And if they make something illegal it increases the value, resulting in people, who will do anything for money, smuggling frogs whether they live or die."endsnip

It really doesn't change the value on the collectors end, just the profit seen by the people who are in the USA and Europe (and Japan) selling the frogs. For example the typical markup in smuggled parrots can be over 1000 times what is paid the collector. 

snip "I didnt make the system but unfortunately that`s the eventual outcome until they are gone from the wild. "endsnip

No it doesn't have to be. Encouraging legal sustainable export from captive bred frogs is the way it should be, as this then benefits everyone (except that there will be less incentive to maintain frogs in captivity as they are always available). 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "When taking into consideration point 1, Is smuggling good? 
Well, we all know that smuggling can endangered species with overcollecting. But on the other hand....putting aside threads such as chytrid, deforestation....not the only way but surely the best way to do conservation is to flood the market. When it cost less to buy CB animals (even if they were smuggled in some countries) than freshly smuggled animals, smuggler will not find any market and will therefor stop smuggling. It is normal economy. "endsnip

Except that the herp market has shown that flooding the market results in people having little to no interest in the animals being brought into the country. For example, what happened to all of the Melanophryniscus (walking toads) that were brought into the country over the last few years???? 
In any case if you read over the CITES stuff, you will see that people are still trying to smuggle auratus in large numbers and this is a species that is imported and not that expensive as imports. 


Ed


----------



## OneTwentySix (Nov 11, 2004)

I think one thing that needs to be added to the discussion is that smugglers sometimes do heavy damage to the habitat, slashing and destroying areas to get at frogs. There's also a very real possibility that they may be bringing chytrid to the locations via their boots and clothing, as exists with any individual that doesn't take the necessary precautions.


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Legality as dicated by a government who can`t even care for it`s own people and is only worried about biopiracy isnt legitimate in my opinion. Legality as i think kyle said is sketchy and ever changing for most speicies we have in the hobby. If someone smuggles my cb to canada it`s not the same as smuggling w/c. If someone smuggles cb offspring from a smuggled pair it`s not the same as smuggling wc from the country of origin. i know they are tied together but they are there because someone smuggled them in the first place. Confiscating the pair and all offspring doesnt work. They are in the hobby because there was a call for them. If they smuggled em once and they maintain their price because of confiscation they will be smuggled again. I dont have any answers, I just know things arent right.
i dont remember where i got the species loss stats, a nature show most likely had estimate of loosing a species a month in the rainforests from development. Even 1 a year isn`t acceptable w/ current technologies. The problem is that development is moving faster than research. If they are discovering a couple new species a year and unexplored territories are being developed there have to be species going by the wayside we dont know about. You can only estimate how many we are loosing if they arent documented yet. My understanding is that development causes much more destruction than collecting and smuggling. If the population is reduced to a couple pairs they are doomed anyway right? these explosive coco plantation #`s could be genetically nonviable so they`ll crash from inbreeding anyway.
You cant say that collecting as little as one pair can devastate a poulation and the 100 smuggled from one area is bad and that an apartment complex that destroys 100 pairs thru a log eater or slash and burn isnt the same thing. Those 100 pairs are gone either way just that development of a hotel took the remaining habitat too.
As i see it some of these morphs are only going to be around in captive collections because a city grew up in their limited habitat. If there area of the world is destroyed the only place left for them is our terrariums. 
I think it was bj`s website that said the popuatoin of a certain morph of pumilio on bastimentos was slated for a hotel/resort and their small population was going to be destroyed. If the frogs are barriered from outside populations and there habitat is going to be destroyed and that`s it, end of situation and they cant migrate they are doomed. i see no reason not to collect them out before construction/destruction of the former habitat happens. 
Your not supposed to collect red efts as pets. A place a friend landscaped at was slated for housing development and he collected some efts out of the pond before the housing development went up 5 years ago. We have not seen a red eft in the area in 3 years. The population is gone. Why let them die? He has second gen offspring from the pool and there are no more of those genetics around. If he didnt collect them out they would be gone forever. i dont know what he`s going to do w/ them but they are still around because of him. Know if he smuggles some of those offspring to japan is that bad? The govt did nothing to protect their habitat and now they are gone. It wasnt on their list to protect then but now he shouldnt breed them and get them out there becuse there are no more in the wild and they went on cites and they are not to be captured,bred,etc.?(speculating that the red efts can be compared to a morph of darts from a limited area the size of a football field because of that being the only acceptable habitat).
What if those were grannies or lehamnni and it was unresearched area or they just didnt care about the species/morph they were going to destroy. 
I dont see smuggling being any worse for the area than putting up a hotel. Both are "bad" for the species but one is "right" because the government gave them permission. I don`t buy it. Let`s keep this in perspective. Not condoning smuggled frogs should go hand in hand w/ boycotting walmart or mcd`s if they fund a resort or town or any development down there which destroys habitat.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Legality as dicated by a government who can`t even care for it`s own people and is only worried about biopiracy isnt legitimate in my opinion."endsnip

This is a personal opinion. And in any case smuggling the frogs prevents the goverment from taxing the value of the frogs, which then prevents the collection of money which could be funneled back for the welfare of thier people...... No matter how you look at it, smuggling is not a victimless crime. It hurts everything from the animals involved to the people it deprives of an income... 

snip " Legality as i think kyle said is sketchy and ever changing for most speicies we have in the hobby."endsnip

It is not as sketchy as people make it out to be, its just that most people do not check with the appropriate authorities to see what the legality of species. They just rely on internet chatter.... 

snip "If someone smuggles my cb to canada it`s not the same as smuggling w/c. If someone smuggles cb offspring from a smuggled pair it`s not the same as smuggling wc from the country of origin." i know they are tied together but they are there because someone smuggled them in the first place."endsnip

The problem with this position is that is legitimizes the demand for frogs regardless of the legality of the frogs which then drives the demand for frogs smuggled from the wild and all of the above issues that are then related to that problem. 

snip "Confiscating the pair and all offspring doesnt work. They are in the hobby because there was a call for them."endsnip

What prevents this argument from being used to justify the cocaine or heroine trade in the USA or Europe? (which is where I first saw this argument). 
The reason confiscation works is because the majority of people who want to remain legal will then avoid aquiring that species reducing demand for that species and cutting back on the casual smuggling. 

snip "If they smuggled em once and they maintain their price because of confiscation they will be smuggled again. I dont have any answers, I just know things arent right. "endsnip

The frogs (just like drugs) will be smuggled as long as there is a demand for them. Its not just the high end frogs (or drugs) that are smuggled. The demand for auratus leads to those frogs being smuggled when there is a wholesale value of about ten dollars a frog (depending on number purchased at one time). One of the confiscations we recieved at work consisted of Tylototriton shanjing when these newts were being purchased by the importers for about $2.50 apiece..... 

snip "i dont remember where i got the species loss stats, a nature show most likely had estimate of loosing a species a month in the rainforests from development."endsnip

This is a different statement than above. If you include birds, mammals, reptiles, amphibians, plants and insects then yes the rate is very high but we are not losing one species or morph of frog a month. 

snip "Even 1 a year isn`t acceptable w/ current technologies. The problem is that development is moving faster than research."endsnip

Actually technology has little to do with it. There simply isn't enough space in the institutions and hobbys to maintain all of the at risk species of frog much less all of the at risk herps. If you add into that the fact that in general, people don't care about the little plain brown/green frogs (which most are) then you can get a picture of the problem. 

snip " My understanding is that development causes much more destruction than collecting and smuggling. "endsnip

In general yes, but there are more and more species that are being extirpated by collection for the pet trade even in pristine locals before the habitat can be destroyed. For an example off the top of my head, the Chinese Cave Gecko (Gonisaurus luii) was extirpated from the holotype site within months of description by collection for the pet trade. A new species of newt was described in China and it was in the pet trade with weeks of the publication... 

snip "If the population is reduced to a couple pairs they are doomed anyway right?"endsnip

As I pointed out above it depends on a number of factors but probably very very likely. (it depends on a number of factors including how the remaining animals are dispersed in the habitat). 

snip "these explosive coco plantation #`s could be genetically nonviable so they`ll crash from inbreeding anyway. "endsnip

Where did you get the idea that they are genetically nonviable? Or that they are necessarily explosive??? 

snip "You cant say that collecting as little as one pair can devastate a poulation and the 100 smuggled from one area is bad and that an apartment complex that destroys 100 pairs thru a log eater or slash and burn isnt the same thing. Those 100 pairs are gone either way just that development of a hotel took the remaining habitat too. endsnip

I think I have been saying that from the point of the population in the wild they are the same thing. Now we can't be sure that the creation of the hotel actually permanently removes all of the habitat or that the habitat created by building the hotel is inappropriate at this time. That requires further study. 

snip "As i see it some of these morphs are only going to be around in captive collections because a city grew up in their limited habitat. If there area of the world is destroyed the only place left for them is our terrariums. "endsnip

This is possible, but this still doesn't justify all of the damage and harm caused by smuggling. 

snip "I think it was bj`s website that said the popuatoin of a certain morph of pumilio on bastimentos was slated for a hotel/resort and their small population was going to be destroyed. If the frogs are barriered from outside populations and there habitat is going to be destroyed and that`s it, end of situation and they cant migrate they are doomed."endsnip

This is likely and in any case, the same thing could occur with a hurricane.... The destruction of local populations is a natural process. We have simply sped the frequency of this occurance up to the point where species as a whole are under threat from it. 

snip "i see no reason not to collect them out before construction/destruction of the former habitat happens. "endsnip

If done legally then this is an acceptable thing to do. 

snip "Your not supposed to collect red efts as pets."endsnip

This is a state by state reg and a number of states allow the collection of a limited number of caudates with a fishing liscence. 

snip "The population is gone. Why let them die? He has second gen offspring from the pool and there are no more of those genetics around."endsnip

This may or may not be true depending on the local population structure and gene flow. In any case, if done legally its an acceptable method. 

snip " Know if he smuggles some of those offspring to japan is that bad? The govt did nothing to protect their habitat and now they are gone. It wasnt on their list to protect then but now he shouldnt breed them and get them out there becuse there are no more in the wild and they went on cites and they are not to be captured,bred,etc.?(speculating that the red efts can be compared to a morph of darts from a limited area the size of a football field because of that being the only acceptable habitat). "endsip

Notopthalmus efts can range pretty far afield so its a different comparision. The reason many states banned/restricted collection of them was because they were being collected to the point populations were crashing to supply the pet stores with a cheap newt in 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s for tropical fish tanks(I can remember when they were three for $1.00). They often had a captive life span measured in weeks to months. The commonly imported Chinese Firebelly newt (Cynops orientalis) now has that distinction. 

snip "What if those were grannies or lehamnni and it was unresearched area or they just didnt care about the species/morph they were going to destroy. "endsnip

Rarity of species doesn't justify the smuggling. We are back to the point I made with the baby gorilla earlier in the thread. 

snip "I dont see smuggling being any worse for the area than putting up a hotel. Both are "bad" for the species but one is "right" because the government gave them permission. I don`t buy it. Let`s keep this in perspective. Not condoning smuggled frogs should go hand in hand w/ boycotting walmart or mcd`s if they fund a resort or town or any development down there which destroys habitat."endsnip

So based on this argument, its okay for you to have the standard of living you have but its not okay for someone to have that standard of living in a different country because they have destroyed some habitat to help them get a better standard of living (which is why we should boycott Mcdonalds, etc). To move this further (and tie in with the point at the beginning some more), its okay to smuggle the frogs from the area but deprive the people who live there of most of the profit from those frogs as well as the tax revenue that could then help them set up some kind of green business that would preserve the habitat and allow them a better standard of living? 


Ed


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

man i took too long writing and lost everything because it logged me out.
let me splain. no, that would take to long, let me sum up. 
anyway, if they wont allow export of animals i cant help them start a green business.

a friend went to costa rica and was promised permits by a govt official. when he got there they were told to collect the frogs and the permits would be there for them. they did and waited a week w/ the same story every day. tehy finally released the frogs and went back to the states and were dragged aside by customs, searched and asked"where are the frogs"?

ive been contacted a dozen times by citizens in 3rd world about how to start a frogfarm and i tell them to contct the govt for permits and i`ll fly down and help them or work w/ them over the phone or email. I`ve never had anyone get past that stage.
It`s all about the money and they dont want there people to have it.
same as the states. it`s easier to control a few people w/ money than a wealthy society.
there are some damn dedicated people around here who want to save frogs, if given the chance. If anyone cared about the animals we would have been contacted by now. Theyve been dying off for some time. noone has come to us to ask for our help and give us guidance
there are enough warehouses in buffalo to house all the at risk amphibians and enough bugs on my land to feed them. with as down as buffalo is i think i can get the space cheap :lol: .
If they charge for the frogs believe me it wont go to the welfare of the people. if that were the case american citizens would have healthcare and education w/ all the destruction we`ve done in the states. It`ll go to getting them hooked on oil and electricity and insurance that wont pay off if the levee`s the govt builds dont hold. It`s all about progress, whatever that is.


----------



## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Two words: Buy land.

Dedicated land owners can at least discourage smuggling. Dedicated land owners can 'encourage' populations with plastic bottles etc. To use the newt example, if you had owned the land would that pool have been destroyed? If folks are truly concerned with the populations and species of dendrobatids as has been said in this thread, they'll individually or in groups BUY LAND in Dendrobatid countries. I'm dying for someone to get ahold of a nice big plot on Bastimentos or Solarte and keep it as is for the frogs- both islands are slated to be mostly condos for rich Americans. Land is available and willingly sold in most of the countries in Dart range. I would love to see Treewalkers go in this direction. TNC has shown it to be a viable option, and the scales that we are talking about in Dendrobatids for a population are well within reach of a group of hobbiests.

True, buying land won't do much about Chytrid or climate change. But without the funds/facillities/gov. support to start 'Arc' trips, it's the best shot we got.

Anyone wanna buy a farm in Ecuador with me?

Cheers,

Afemoralis


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

And then the current regime changes and you lost your investment and land but hopefully not your life. I`m already doing that and it`s not that easy here let alone there. I can hardly keep hunters off my own property and i`m here all the time. i Bought the most amphibian rich unwanted land around Buffalo and am conserving the species here and creating habitat for the ones that arent. I kicked out the mink/ supposed muskrat trapper when i got here to try and give more spotted turtle habitat from their burrows. I can only do so much and there is so much more to be done in a very short period of time. 
If the conservancy laws are the same as here you can hunt ducks trap turtles on the property and collect frogs and shoot guns. not much of a nature conservancy. And we know w/ alaska here that if they find oil or want to ship it unsafely thru pristine habitat we can`t do anything about it. It may always be destroyed for our need for energy. The people who know have no power and the people in power could care less.
I would love to go down there and do this but, as i said, i`ve heard the horror stories and Americans aren`t really liked outside america right now.
I don`t want to loose anymore of OUR animals from this planet, dammit. And i can`t get conservation to move fast enough. No matter what job i take, whether it be research or hands on frog breeding or protesting or talking, it does no good. The animals available to me are of no use w/out collection data or bloodline data. Patrick and other already have their lines from out of the country. it does me no good to breed their siblings together and flood the market w/ the next generation before the first one kicks, on a conservation standpoint. it only brings the inbreeding depression that much closer.
We are the custodians of this planet and we are`nt doing our job. We are idly sitting by while this happens. The ones that really want to help have no organization. You can`t even get people together for a good old fashioned war protest anymore. We have become sedate and it`s probably already too late. Smuggling to me is the last "screw you, if you can`t take care of your children we will". The gov`t can take my kids if they THINK i`m raising them wrong but i can`t go get frogs if i think they aren`t taking care of their animals? Where`s the checks and balances in that system. Maybe I should just move on and give up. It`s kinda like , not tantalus, who was the guy who had to push the rock up the mountain for eternity? I`m getting nothing accomplished and it`s a lot of work.
You guys realize i`m never going to smuggle frogs. i`m too worried about even going to another country to see the habitat of the animals i hold so dear let alone the thought of spending time in a jail down there or just as bad, up here. I only wish i could do something about it.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip " anyway, if they wont allow export of animals i cant help them start a green business."endsip

Why not? There are other eco-friendly sustainable methods that would allow the preservation of the region without the export of the animals at this time. As always it depends on the country but tourism, insect farms exporting insect specimens that have been farmed (like butterflies), etc are all green and can be used as examples of locally sustainable practices. The potential export of live animals should be able to be accomplished over time (look at some of the recent imports that have been allowed from frogs that have been cb down there and tracked from egg to shippable size). I am hearing rumours that Bolivia may allow Tematobius to be exported from farmed animals. This would be the first time in many years that they have been exported. In any case, this is only really feasible if there is long term support in country on the ground first. 

snip " tehy finally released the frogs and went back to the states and were dragged aside by customs, searched and asked"where are the frogs"? "endsnip

Not surprising. People who go down and do not get permits have been known to try and smuggle the animals back. We recieved several adult Dermatemys mauii this way. They were confiscated at customs. 

snip "ive been contacted a dozen times by citizens in 3rd world about how to start a frogfarm and i tell them to contct the govt for permits and i`ll fly down and help them or work w/ them over the phone or email. I`ve never had anyone get past that stage. "endsnip

Not surprising. I would expect some people to have seized on this as a con game. However there are people that go down there and make it work but it takes time. 

snip "It`s all about the money and they dont want there people to have it. 
same as the states. it`s easier to control a few people w/ money than a wealthy society. "endsnip

These are cash poor goverments. While they may not want the people to have money like the drug smugglers do because they do not want them setting them selves basically up as feudal lords and preventing goverment from working, they do want the people to make money as they can then tax them. For example the median income in Panama is under $500 a month.... 

sniup " If anyone cared about the animals we would have been contacted by now. "endsnip

What makes you think that? 

snip "there are enough warehouses in buffalo to house all the at risk amphibians and enough bugs on my land to feed them. with as down as buffalo is i think i can get the space cheap"endsnip

And to pay for the care, heat etc? What about suitable feeder insects in the winter? 
As I said at this time there isn't enough space in the institutions and the hobby to maintain the animals. There maybe space enough to maintain them at the moment but this is a short sighted view. We need to be looking at the long term sustainable which means that a large number of each species has to be maintained long term.... 
. 
snip "If they charge for the frogs believe me it wont go to the welfare of the people. if that were the case american citizens would have healthcare and education w/ all the destruction we`ve done in the states."endsnip

Have you looked at the tax and fees structure for land explotation in the USA? We do not really charge them for anything and that is before we give them incentives and tax breaks. 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "i got here to try and give more spotted turtle habitat from their burrows. Endsnip

Over growth of the marshy areas is a prime habitat loss for spotteds. There is some very interesting and effective studies for habitat maintence using low density cattle and or goat grazing to keep the habitat open for them. 

snip "If the conservancy laws are the same as here you can hunt ducks trap turtles on the property and collect frogs and shoot guns."endsnip

Keep in mind though that it is the hunting and fishing lobbies that are some of the most powerful eco friendly groups in the USA. They have done more for habitat protection etc than a lot of other organizations. While this has mainly been for the desirable game species a lot of other species benefit from the management of the habitat for the game species. In effect the game species raises an umbrella that protect the other species. 

snip "And we know w/ alaska here that if they find oil or want to ship it unsafely thru pristine habitat we can`t do anything about it."endsnip

This would never have been an issue if people hadn't panicked and allowed terrorism to be the sole decision on who they wanted to put into office..... 

snip "The people who know have no power and the people in power could care less. "endsnip

This is due to the apathy of the voter. In effect we as a collective whole society are responsible. 


snip " Where`s the checks and balances in that system."endsip

Sitting at home playing video games and watching tv. 

snip "Maybe I should just move on and give up. It`s kinda like , not tantalus, who was the guy who had to push the rock up the mountain for eternity?"endsnip 

You are referring to Sisyphus. 

snip " I`m getting nothing accomplished and it`s a lot of work. "endsnip

It may not seem that way but keep in mind that every person who you talk to or gets frogs from you is a potential supporter for conservation because they have a link to the animals involved. The lack of that link or interest is probably one of the greatest reasons conservation programs fail. It took the Zoos a long time to realize that if you do not involve the people on the ground in the area you want to conserve, then any programs are already doomed to fail. 

snip " I only wish i could do somethin "endsip

See above.... 
You can and in some way you are.


Ed


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

snip " tehy finally released the frogs and went back to the states and were dragged aside by customs, searched and asked"where are the frogs"? "endsnip 

Not surprising. People who go down and do not get permits have been known to try and smuggle the animals back. We recieved several adult Dermatemys mauii this way. They were confiscated at customs. 


Of course, it`s a setup. they were promised permits long before they went down. the government promised them, had them go down and spend their money for 2 weeks and then never delivered. sounds like entrapment to me!

sniup " If anyone cared about the animals we would have been contacted by now. "endsnip 

What makes you think that? 

Because i have been contacted by soo many people all over the world about frog farm setups and exporting frogs and have been asked to go to madagascar to head a captive breeding program over there. I have been around a long time doing govt research and breeding frogs and have a lot of contacts here. I`ve asked Ron gagliardo what i can do and am currently trying to formulate a new game plan which will have me do more "good". I have offered my help to zoo`s and institutions all over the country and have helped a few. I have offered all i can to Taran Grant for specimens for his work and the atl bot gardens, lackawanna bot gardens, buff zoo, clyde peeling, am museum of nat`l history, Baltimore aquarium, Aquarium of the americas etc,etc,etc. All it takes is a call and an i need this and i`m all over it. No one has asked me to accompany them down to panama or costa rica or help w/ any of the frogs they need care for etc. I have sent animals and bugs all over the country but i dont have anything rare. i tried w/ the black springtails and no one has had success w/ them to the best of my knowledge. I`m currently trying to find blue jeans for the atl bot gardens but i havent been able to find any for myself so it`s pretty much no use. 
i have extensive field research experience in bugs, botany, birding,gps, herps, water survey, geology and backcountry first aid in desert environs, missouri backwoods, colorado mountains and oregon desert. Even thru sca i wasnt able to get down there for research. I`m one of the most qualified people in the country for this and no one will use me. It`s obvious no one really cares or i wouldve been contacted years ago.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "What makes you think that? 

Because i have been contacted by soo many people all over the world about frog farm setups and exporting frogs and have been asked to go to madagascar to head a captive breeding program over there."endsnip

Overseas requests are different than those offered by Zoos and Institutions in the USA.... 

snip " I have offered my help to zoo`s and institutions all over the country and have helped a few. I have offered all i can to Taran Grant for specimens for his work and the atl bot gardens, lackawanna bot gardens, buff zoo, clyde peeling, am museum of nat`l history, Baltimore aquarium, Aquarium of the americas etc,etc,etc. All it takes is a call and an i need this and i`m all over it. No one has asked me to accompany them down to panama or costa rica or help w/ any of the frogs they need care for etc."endsnip

When this sort of call goes out in the USA, they typically have more help than they need. If it is being conducted by a AZA Zoo then they typically only accept in country help (the people living in the region) and AZA members or employees. 
With Institutions live Universities, there are typically a lot of students who are going to be involved. 


snip " I have sent animals and bugs all over the country but i dont have anything rare."endsnip

Being a vendor and having a lack of rare items don't matter when it comes to this sort of stuff. 

snip " I`m one of the most qualified people in the country for this and no one will use me. It`s obvious no one really cares or i wouldve been contacted years ago"endsnip

Haven't seen your resume so I can't say whether or not you are qualified but like Zoo jobs there are more people who want to be involved in the field work, than there is often field work. So unless you are actively filling out applications (and are willing to work for free or for peanuts) etc then you will probably never be called..... 


Ed


----------

