# Silicon? Acryclic? Epoxy? my oh my! Help me!!!



## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

So I have been reading a lot and am building a vivarium backgrouding using the PVC pipe, rope, GS and then... something to bind the peatmoss/ coco huskbarkstuff to. .. 

The problem is WHAT!?!

I read where Silicon is good but I dunno if It is waterproof, some people like it, you mix it with Toluene and then your substrate ... 

then I read about Acrylic concrete binder stuff? 
whats the deal? some like it, others say it doesnt hold up and isnt waterproof. 

then Epoxy, which is from what I am reading wateproof, doesnt have a long cure time, and looks better. 


Can I get some info guys? 

Help me!


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

They're all viable options. Keep in mind, that for a background, making it water proof isn't necessarily a priority, water resistance is plus though. If you make a water tight background, then mount a bunch of plants to it with toothpicks/staples/wire you're puncturing the water proof layer you made. What it comes down to is the fact that the GS is safe so it doesn't matter if it gets a little wet here and there. Also assuming that all of the other materials in your background is safe.

As far as which to use, that's up to you. I tend to like the look of the concrete binder a bit more, but thinning the silicone with toluene makes it a lot easier to use.

It is true that if you're going to run a water feature the acrylic fortifier can breakdown over time, so most people use either silicone or epoxy for water features because water won't affect they're structural integrity.

My favorite is epoxy but it's so expensive I don't use it that much. I'm going to be trying the acrylic fortifier method soon I think, and maybe trying some precatalyzed epoxy sealant, but need to look into the safety of that a bit more first.

This is one of the reasons this hobby is fun! There's so many ways to do things.

Also don't throw out the good ol' cork mosaic or clay or a combination of all of the above.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

haha Thank you for your reply. 
I have purchased some GE silicon 1 clear. 
it says for doors, windows, attic and basement. 

Is this safe? I see SO many threads on GE 2 but not one.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

GE silicone 1 is my silicone of choice. GE silicone 2 is way overused especially when considering the organotins in it. Organotins have been linked to Spindly Leg Syndrome and egg failure. See this link. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal.html


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## gaxmode (Nov 23, 2011)

It was brought up before that ge I also includes a "bioseal" but was not marketed as such. Just saying...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

gaxmode said:


> It was brought up before that ge I also includes a "bioseal" but was not marketed as such. Just saying...


You have not fully read the thread that I referenced. They use different curing agents. GE silicone 2 uses an organotin as an alternate curing agent as some people find the odor less offensive. We are not talking about "bioseal" here. We are discussing the safety of the organotins that are in GE silicone 2 but are NOT in GE silicone 1. The organotin is a known endocrine disruptor and as such, can cause spindly leg syndrome in morphing froglets. I stand by my recommendation. Please do some research and read the thread that was already referenced.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Just to add some complexity to your decision, Gorilla Glue can also be used, its chemical makeup is the same as GS and adds an interesting texture. I used it on three recent builds and I like the results, plus the waiting time for it to cure is hours instead of days and no fumes either...


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Has anyone used GG to mix with moss or peat to "paint" onto cork? What could be GG be thinned with to make it easier to use??? Does it eventually turn that obnoxious yellow like GS??


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Judy S said:


> Has anyone used GG to mix with moss or peat to "paint" onto cork? What could be GG be thinned with to make it easier to use??? Does it eventually turn that obnoxious yellow like GS??


For the three I recently did, I did a cork bark mosaic with the small hydroponic baskets and used the GS to secure the baskets to my background and create some dimension. I then shaved the skin off the GS with a razor and smeared gorilla glue on the GS with latex gloves (I actually used nitrile gloves). Then I sprinkled on the peat/coco. The peat/coco I used was actually a little wet, but another benefit to the gorilla glue is that some moisture will not adversly effect its curing ability. The color it cures seems to vary. When I used it, it expanded a bit and creates a sometimes pourous, rock like surface that looks natural when covered with peat. It may take two or three applications to get it the way you want and to cover all the little spots that you miss.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Great Stuff and Gorilla Glue give a great bond to cork bark, but the bond to glass is not always permanent. I had the entire back wall of my Solarte viv release after being set up, planted, and misted. It held up for about 6 to maybe 8 weeks and the whole cork bark wall began to slump forward. Upon breakdown it had completely let go of the back wall.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> Great Stuff and Gorilla Glue give a great bond to cork bark, but the bond to glass is not always permanent. I had the entire back wall of my Solarte viv release after being set up, planted, and misted. It held up for about 6 to maybe 8 weeks and the whole cork bark wall began to slump forward. Upon breakdown it had completely let go of the back wall.


Good point Pumilio, I actually used aquarium silicone to secure the cork to the glass. Then I used GS and GG in that order, I don't know about the longevity of this technique b/c it is relatively new...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

cbreon said:


> Good point Pumilio, I actually used aquarium silicone to secure the cork to the glass. Then I used GS and GG in that order, I don't know about the longevity of this technique b/c it is relatively new...


Good thinking. All too many are skipping the silicone to save time. I'm afraid it's going to cause a lot of headaches down the road. I would think that your properly attached cork bark will help to provide more permanent anchors for your great stuff.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

This has been very helpful! 
So I can still use silicon/toluene/peat 
For the water features as it is waterproof,
some people are also using epoxy INSTEAD OF
silicon in areas that remain wet for extra assurance 
that it's not going to break down. 
Correct?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dartolution said:


> This has been very helpful!
> So I can still use silicon/toluene/peat
> For the water features as it is waterproof,
> some people are also using epoxy INSTEAD OF
> ...


I'm sorry I haven't addressed that specifically. It's not that I am skirting around your specific questions. It's just that I don't do water features. I am just trying to help out with the info that I am comfortable with passing on. I have also not done the silicone/toluene/peat background method.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

I see.
I have been reading where several people are
including Grimm. Who if I am not mistaken does have a water feature
in his new tank. 

Anyone else know if this is safe/waterproof/durable?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

So many threads and so little time. He probably hasn't seen it. Most people don't mind a PM to ask his opinion. The easiest way might be to PM him, link him to the thread, and ask if he could throw in his 2 cents.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Dartolution said:


> I see.
> I have been reading where several people are
> including Grimm. Who if I am not mistaken does have a water feature
> in his new tank.
> ...


Everytime I have had a water feature I used aquarium grade silicone, I dont think it gets any safer than that. I have never messed with acrylic so I cant tell you much about it, I have seen/heard of multiple people using it and I have never heard of any negatives but that doesn't mean there aren't any.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I am still hoping to get an answer to my original question about whether there is a way to thin out GG...as there is a way to do that with silicone using Toulene--which is very, very difficult to use unless precautions are taken such as mask, good air--things of that sort. If GG were able to the thinned down, it would probably work well mixed with peat, moss "spores," etc. and would bind to backgrounds, etc.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Judy S said:


> I am still hoping to get an answer to my original question about whether there is a way to thin out GG...as there is a way to do that with silicone using Toulene--which is very, very difficult to use unless precautions are taken such as mask, good air--things of that sort. If GG were able to the thinned down, it would probably work well mixed with peat, moss "spores," etc. and would bind to backgrounds, etc.


GG turns all yellow as it cures. I'm not sure it would work well.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

so are you suggesting that the issue is esthetics, which eventually would be resolved by a growth (hopefully) of moss...or that there is no "thinner" for the GG which would enable a better way to apply the "spores" for moss to bind with a "host"..???


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

esthetics. I don't know of any thinner for it. It is solvent free so you cannot simply choose the solvent it is based on. Water makes is set faster so you can't use water. They suggest a hammer and chisel for clean up so you can't try their recommended cleaner. Perhaps you could ask them at Gorilla Glue - Home


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

thanks for the help. Since I have bought 4 tubes of GE Silicon 1 
And have a ton of coconut bedding, I might as well try it out. Just need to pick up some Toluene from ACE or somewhere. 

And since we are on the subject still...

I have let my Great Stuff that Ive sprayed on my "to be stump" sit since sunday with a fan on it on high. It doesnt really have a smell anymore, and I have broken the skin in multiple areas. 

I plan on carving the excess and certain areas to make it more indicative of a stump and not the blob that it currently looks haha. 

Any tips on carving GS?


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Judy S said:


> so are you suggesting that the issue is esthetics, which eventually would be resolved by a growth (hopefully) of moss...or that there is no "thinner" for the GG which would enable a better way to apply the "spores" for moss to bind with a "host"..???


Although GG does cure yellow to opaque I have found it quite easy to use and it does not need to be thinned to use with peat/coco. I have been applying it to my GS & cork bark mosaic after shaving the outer layer off the GS. I lay the tank on its back and drizzle the GG over the parts of the background that I want to apply peat/coco to. I then use latex/nitrile gloves to spread the GG evenly. I then apply a heavy layer of the peat/coco to the backgorund and pat it down to help it stick. I let it dry overnight and then deal with any trouble spots the next day using the same process on a smaller scale. 

This technique is relatively new so I can't speak to the longevity, but GG's chemical makeup is the same as GS so I think it would stand up as well as GS backgrounds. I have used it on 3 backgrounds that are approx 5 months old and I have had no issues. As Doug (Pumilio) mentioned it is important to use silicon to attach any cork bark pieces to the background b/c apprently GG does not always work. Although, I have also heard of people using GG to glue coco/peat directly to the glass, not using any GS.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I have only used GG as a glue and Great Stuff only as a filler, so I will bow out to those with actual experience in the methods in question. I really only got in here to comment on silicone.
Thanks cbrean.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Dartolution said:


> thanks for the help. Since I have bought 4 tubes of GE Silicon 1
> And have a ton of coconut bedding, I might as well try it out. Just need to pick up some Toluene from ACE or somewhere.
> 
> And since we are on the subject still...
> ...


I just use a utility knife with a fresh blade so that it cuts more easily. You can also remove the blade and use it free-hand if that makes it easier. Be careful!


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

The carving part is fun...and since Santa is on his way...maybe a Dremel toolset will be in his sack...and if you make a mistake, slap some silicone on and cover it up...Happy whatever holiday is yours...!!


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Well yesterday I attempted my first coat. 
I just emptied out the silicon into a small ice cream bucket (the plastic kind) then poured the toluene in there ( I don't know if it was exactly 2:1:1 on the mixing :-/) will that affect it? 

I also used coconut husk (ground up). It was ecoterra compressed coconut brick stuff, I noticed its a bit large but it covered it well. 
then I threw on the coconut bedding while it was still wet to cover it as much as possible. 

Today after having it outside with the fan on it all night I was dry enough to vacuum off the excess. 
Most of it was covered but there are still several other spots that need to be covered again, which I figured it would take several coats anyway

So I also got a bag a plain peat moss and have it layed out on a piece of cardboard to dry which I will use for the next coat. 

Will the next coat adhere to the one that's on it? 
Is it normal that the GS that was coated is spongy now? 
How critical is the ratio of 2 parts silicon to 1 part toluene and 1 part peat? I think I used more toluene to get it "soupy"


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Mixing toluene with silicone is definitely not needed. I did it because my background was difficult to coat quickly, and I needed more "working time" before adding peat to it. From my experience, using toluene worked much better on ropes compared to foam, because they could actually absorb the mixture. Again, it is not needed and was something I personally wanted to experiment with. It gives the same end result. The need for a mask and good air circulation was a pain, but it made coating hard to reach places much easier. No way you can paint silicone by itself as easily because it is so thick. I probably wont use toluene again just due to the smell.

It doesnt matter which method you use, the most important thing to getting a well covered background is having completely dry peat/coco. It also makes things easier if you carve all the smooth GS skin off, and put the silicone on thick.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Thanks GRIMM I was hoping you'd pop by! 

It is spongy now and there are just a few bare places so I'm wondering if I should just mix straight silicon and dry peat together and spread it in those areas I missed then cover it with dry peat.


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## BethInAK (Jul 12, 2011)

I wonder if you could use GG instead of silicone and toluene on ropes. 
I think I'll try this on my next build.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

the GG defintely produces a weird texture if you pat it as its drying...it would be interesting to try...


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

a reminder that silicone, once dried, cannot be successfully covered with more silicone...experience--the best teacher.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Oh great Judy! 
That's not what I wanted to hear :-(


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

It is true that silicone does not stick well to other silicone. So if you are trying to reseal a tank or a bathtub, it will not stick well to remnants left behind. It won't seal properly and you can peel it off easily. It may be a different story here. You don't really need it to seal. It has the remnants of the coco fiber to grab onto.
I have not done silicone and coco fiber backgrounds myself, but I work with a LOT of silicone, going through maybe a hundred tubes a year for the last 20 years. I think it may work ok for you.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Perhaps you are correct...because of the other ingredients that have been mixed in...and using touluene with it may really make the difference and enable it to bond. I guess it just has to be done and observed...it would be great if there were a feedback about it for others to learn from.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Yay my hopes are up. 
There are just a few spots that need another coat really most of it is covered! 

But I won't ahead and peeled off the thin layers that I knew I wanted to recover anyway this afternoon to expose the PVC and rope again. 

Wish me luck! 

Also... What if I wanted to use brown silicon on my background? 
Does GE make a GE SILICON 1 BROWN? 

Is it safe? 
Maybe I could mix half brown an half clear with the peat and a little sand


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dartolution said:


> Also... What if I wanted to use brown silicon on my background?
> Does GE make a GE SILICON 1 BROWN?


Google says...probably not. But I've seen it in black online.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

YIKES BLACK!?!?! 
I could have swore I saw brown silicon at lowes when I got my GE 1 clear 
...


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Is this safe? 

Shop GE 9.8 Oz. Brown Silicone at Lowes.com


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dartolution said:


> Is this safe?
> 
> Shop GE 9.8 Oz. Brown Silicone at Lowes.com


That would be GE silicone 2. While there are plenty of people using it, and it won't kill your frogs, it does contain organtins that GE 1 does not have. The organotins have been linked to spindly leg syndrome and egg failure.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Thanks pumilo! I will stay clear then, don't trust it! 
Does te black silicon mentioned earlier have organotins?


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I believe you can get a black silicone in places that deal with ponds that is used to secure landscaping rocks...but you'd have to check...if they were suitable for ponds probably would be safe for fish and frogs...there have been other posts about the same question...good luck and let us know how it turns out!!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dartolution said:


> Thanks pumilo! I will stay clear then, don't trust it!
> Does te black silicon mentioned earlier have organotins?


Every GE Silicon 2 has organotins. Every GE silicone 1 is made without organotins. So the Black GE silicone 1 is safe.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Awesome!
I dunno if I can get GE 1 in brown but if I can I'm assuming it too is safer


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dartolution said:


> Awesome!
> I dunno if I can get GE 1 in brown but if I can I'm assuming it too is safer


Yes, it would be but I didn't see any on my initial Google search.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Dartolution said:


> So I have been reading a lot and am building a vivarium backgrouding using the PVC pipe, rope, GS and then... something to bind the peatmoss/ coco huskbarkstuff to. ..
> 
> The problem is WHAT!?!
> 
> ...


Silicone is waterproof. They use it to seal fish aquariums and whatnot.
The debate is about the bioseal and microban stuff put in silicone that prevents stuff from grow....mold inhibitors and whatnot.
Also from what I have read the bioseal or microban can mess with the frog eggs.
I used GEII even tho most say not to cause of the bioseal and microban but it is hard to find GEII in black.
I might be trying the SCS1200 silicone Grimm uses on my next build if I have the money lol cause it is like $10 a tube.
Honestly tho loads of people use GEII and they have never had any issues. 
Loads of people have issues with clear. I used clear on my first viv and when the peat washed away you could see the foam.
At least with black and brown it still hides the foam. Brown is hard to find in both GEI and GEII for some people.
You will be just fine using black GEII cause I have been told by a lot of people they have had nothing bad come from it./
Tho I wouldn't use it to where it will come in direct contact with the frog's eggs.

If I thought it would hurt my frogs I would not use it.
Hopefully you can find GEI black or brown but if not go with the GEII
It's gonna be hard finding the b;ack and brown GEI locally and if you get it online you have to pay shipping and whatnot.
Not really worth all the headache but if you have then money then go for it


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Silicone is waterproof. They use it to seal fish aquariums and whatnot.
> The debate is about the bioseal and microban stuff put in silicone that prevents stuff from grow....mold inhibitors and whatnot.
> Also from what I have read the bioseal or microban can mess with the frog eggs.
> I used GEII even tho most say not to cause of the bioseal and microban but it is hard to find GEII in black.
> ...


Here is the MSDS for GE Silicone 2 http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/2d/2d9622c5-268d-4ab0-8dce-32dd186b8b72.pdf It states that it's solubility in water is "negligable" on page 4. It also states in "toxicity": "May impair fertility. May cause harm to unborn child." Direct contact with eggs does not matter. The organotins can be soluble and still affect eggs, tadpoles, and cause Spindly Leg Syndrome in froglets. 
Here is the MSDS for GE Silicone 1 http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/2b/2b4de67e-87cb-4e48-b395-3ff978de0f7b.pdf It states that solubility in water is "insoluble". There are no warnings concerning fertility or causing harm to an unborn child in GE silicone 1.
If you do your research about the potential risks, the choice is obvious.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Here is the MSDS for GE Silicone 2 http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/2d/2d9622c5-268d-4ab0-8dce-32dd186b8b72.pdf It states that it's solubility in water is "negligable" on page 4. It also states in "toxicity": "May impair fertility. May cause harm to unborn child." Direct contact with eggs does not matter. The organotins can be soluble and still affect eggs, tadpoles, and cause Spindly Leg Syndrome in froglets.
> Here is the MSDS for GE Silicone 1 http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/2b/2b4de67e-87cb-4e48-b395-3ff978de0f7b.pdf It states that solubility in water is "insoluble". There are no warnings concerning fertility or causing harm to an unborn child in GE silicone 1.
> If you do your research about the potential risks, the choice is obvious.


I knew about the eggs and whatnot and I'm sure the concerning fertility or causing harm to an unborn child in GE silicone 1 is about the fumes.
I have not heard of the spindley leg syndrome tho :/

So um I used it lol and if I put forglets in there they will get spindley leg syndrome?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I knew about the eggs and whatnot and I'm sure the concerning fertility or causing harm to an unborn child in GE silicone 1 is about the fumes.
> I have not heard of the spindley leg syndrome tho :/
> 
> So um I used it lol and if I put forglets in there they will get spindley leg syndrome?


No, but if tadpoles develop in the viv the froglets could morph out with Spindly Leg Syndrome (SLS).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I knew about the eggs and whatnot and I'm sure the concerning fertility or causing harm to an unborn child in GE silicone 1 is about the fumes.
> I have not heard of the spindley leg syndrome tho :/
> 
> So um I used it lol and if I put forglets in there they will get spindley leg syndrome?


If it interferes with fertility then it can impair sperm and egg formation, viability, fertility of the egg, development of the embryo, endocrine disruption, or even disrupt morphological development... So the anecdotal reports of people claiming they haven't seen any issues are not a valid test or trial since all of the variables have not been analyzed in anything resembling a scientific trial by those reporting no problems. Those chemicals have been documented to have issues so the anecdotal reports are of questionable reliability.. 

Based on your comments in this post of yours and the one immediately above it, it is clear you didn't understand the Bioseal thread or the MSDS.. 

As Doug noted, there is no concern with the unborn with GE I.. (since the fumes are acetic acid, the same acid that is in vinegar) which is directly opposite of your statement that I quoted above.. 

I also should note that it is clear from that comment you don't even understand spindly leg syndrome either.. 

The problem chemicals are not added to prevent mold etc from growing they are added to change the polymerization reaction so the offgass is ammonia instead of acetic acid. The antimold/mildew etc results are an aftermarket discovery and used as a marketing tool. This was very clear in the Bioseal and several other threads... 

The problem chemicals are known to be mobile in other materials in which they are used as a polymerization catalyst so there isn't any indication that they won't be mobile in the GE II. 

If you want to get black aquarium silicone you can order it from Twin Oaks for $8 a large tube... 

I am once again going to suggest that you need to understand a topic before you begin to give advice on it..... 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> If it interferes with fertility then it can impair sperm and egg formation, viability, fertility of the egg, development of the embryo, endocrine disruption, or even disrupt morphological development... So the anecdotal reports of people claiming they haven't seen any issues are not a valid test or trial since all of the variables have not been analyzed in anything resembling a scientific trial by those reporting no problems. Those chemicals have been documented to have issues so the anecdotal reports are of questionable reliability..
> 
> Based on your comments in this post of yours and the one immediately above it, it is clear you didn't understand the Bioseal thread or the MSDS..
> 
> ...


actually Ed I was going by what you told me.
I got from what you have told me about GEII that it only messes with the eggs and the fertility of the eggs and not the frogs themselves and no mention of spindley leg syndrome.
Maybe I misunderstood your statement about the fertility being about the eggs alone and not also with the frogs themselves.
I have avoided ordering online and will continue to do so why pay for shipping on all these different sites and whatnot. Now if I could order it all in one place and pay shipping once then I wouldn't have such an issue lol.
Also $8 a tube and the like $8(guessed) to ship...might as well try to find the SCS1200 for $10 or so.

Also like I said in my original post loads of members use GEII and have never had any issues.

I plan on using toluene or xylol/xylene in the future and I will just use clear GE1 cause I'm sure the peat will dye the silicone. Shouldn't it?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> actually Ed I was going by what you told me.
> I got from what you have told me about GEII that it only messes with the eggs and the fertility of the eggs and not the frogs themselves and no mention of spindley leg syndrome.
> Maybe I misunderstood your statement about the fertility being about the eggs alone and not also with the frogs themselves.
> I have avoided ordering online and will continue to do so why pay for shipping on all these different sites and whatnot. Now if I could order it all in one place and pay shipping once then I wouldn't have such an issue lol.
> ...


First off, I never told you that the GE I was a risk (which is what I pointed out in the thread above). Second with the reference to GE II, I was clear about it in the Bioseal thread see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal-2.html#post318192 where I stated there was the risk of endocrine disruption as well as a teratogen. 

You can order both black and clear silicone in bulk from Twin Oaks and be 100% sure that it is safe.... 

As I pointed out that simple because people use GE II and have no problems doesn not constitute proof that it is safe... 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I plan on using toluene or xylol/xylene in the future and I will just use clear GE1 cause I'm sure the peat will dye the silicone. Shouldn't it?


Peat will most likely NOT dye silicone. In order to dye the silicone, the peat would have to sit for a long period of time in it. Seeing as how the silicone is setting up, it would solidify long before any appreciable dyeing were done. Additionally silicone would be too thick for any potential dye to spread. If you were to thin it to the point that any possible dyeing action could spread, it would probably be too thin for it's intended purpose. Besides, back to the first point, it would set up too quickly.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> First off, I never told you that the GE I was a risk (which is what I pointed out in the thread above). Second with the reference to GE II, I was clear about it in the Bioseal thread see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal-2.html#post318192 where I stated there was the risk of endocrine disruption as well as a teratogen.
> 
> You can order both black and clear silicone in bulk from Twin Oaks and be 100% sure that it is safe....
> 
> ...


I never said you said GE 1 was a risk -____________-
That thread is a serious headache and is like a sleeping pill.
So many interjected with so much conversation.
I think that thread needs to be picked apart and have all the info posted then closed. It is ridiculously long.
I asked you in a thread of mine about the risks of using GEII and you mentioned it would affect the frog eggs and then I said I will just not use it on film containers or put deposition sites around it or something along those lines.

I will say this again loads of members use GEII and have not had any issues.
I hope to not have to use it in the future tho.

Ok issues have been addressed and whatnot so lets not do this back and forth stuff.


Pumilo thanks for the insight..I would have thanked your post but I used up my likes for the day lol.
Do you think the clear silicone would be noticeable tho?
When I did my vine I never saw any of the black showing through but of course I didn't use clear and mixing the peat with the solvent is different.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The back and forth stuff continues because you keep saying that others have used GE silicone 2 and not had issues. This cannot be posted as a fact. You, or anybody making these statements, have not run any reliable tests to prove that the chemicals in GE 2 will not affect your frogs in any way. Science says different. You continue to try to simply push the proof aside and say that it is safe. You do not know this. The MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) is fact. You cannot simply toss it aside and claim that it is wrong with absolutely NO facts or even any reliable evidence to back up your claims. Drop your claims and the back and forth stuff will stop. The fact that you don't feel like reading through the PROOF, does not make it any less valid.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I never said you said GE 1 was a risk -____________-


Actually if you read your quote above, you stated in response to the GE I comment that you were going off what I supposedly told you. I corrected that misrepresentation on your part.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I asked you in a thread of mine about the risks of using GEII and you mentioned it would affect the frog eggs and then I said I will just not use it on film containers or put deposition sites around it or something along those lines.


 I think you need to do your research over again since I pointed the issues out to you back in 2010 (see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...tuff-peat-moss-vs-cocofiber-2.html#post585754) in your thread and then suggested you read the bioseal thread. You have again conviently either misunderstood or "forgot" what you were told..... 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I will say this again loads of members use GEII and have not had any issues.


And I will point out again that this response is meaningless in this case.. 

The back and forth is because you have repeatedly refused to accept the corrections of the bad information you are putting into this thread and have made accusations against the sources of that information. If you want me to not correct you then don't attempt to implicate me in your failure to quote the information correctly and/or your failure to research it so you understand it. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> The back and forth stuff continues because you keep saying that others have used GE silicone 2 and not had issues. This cannot be posted as a fact. You, or anybody making these statements, have not run any reliable tests to prove that the chemicals in GE 2 will not affect your frogs in any way. Science says different. You continue to try to simply push the proof aside and say that it is safe. You do not know this. The MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) is fact. You cannot simply toss it aside and claim that it is wrong with absolutely NO facts or even any reliable evidence to back up your claims. Drop your claims and the back and forth stuff will stop. The fact that you don't feel like reading through the PROOF, does not make it any less valid.


their frogs have not showed symptoms of any syndromes and also their frogs are doing a fine job at breeding and the eggs are ok and the froglets are as well.
That kinda makes it a fact since they have not had anything bad come out of using GEII.

Smoking cause cancer but will the person in fact get cancer....no.

There are many things that causes things but really you have to look at the likelihood of it even happening.
I have yet to see anyone have issues with using GEII.

I would like to see someone actually take samples from the moisture on a background that had GEII used and to see if there is in fact traces of any chemicals.
Also I have seen people use GEII on aquariums and not see any effects of the silicone.

Has there been any evidence that GEII leaches chemicals when cured?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> their frogs have not showed symptoms of any syndromes and also their frogs are doing a fine job at breeding and the eggs are ok and the froglets are as well.
> That kinda makes it a fact since they have not had anything bad come out of using GEII.


How many of the frogs were monitored for endocrine disruption? As I've noted repeatedly, you keep going back to this as a defense when it is meaningless.... You clearly do not understand the argument or the data (or it's relevence). 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Smoking cause cancer but will the person in fact get cancer....no.


This is an apples and oranges argument.. If you lived long enough and smoked during that whole lifetime, then you would get cancer... It's all a matter of statistics. Just like if you as a male live long enough, you will get prostate cancer... 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> There are many things that causes things but really you have to look at the likelihood of it even happening.
> I have yet to see anyone have issues with using GEII.


This is an argument from belief and as such has no value in this discussion.. 

It is abundently clear that you are simply arguing because you have no understanding of the data. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

> Actually if you read your quote above, you stated in response to the GE I comment that you were going off what I supposedly told you. I corrected that misrepresentation on your part.


do you mean this post??? cause I only mentioned clear GE I when asking if the peat would help die it when using solvents.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> actually Ed I was going by what you told me.
> I got from what you have told me about GEII that it only messes with the eggs and the fertility of the eggs and not the frogs themselves and no mention of spindley leg syndrome.
> Maybe I misunderstood your statement about the fertility being about the eggs alone and not also with the frogs themselves.
> I have avoided ordering online and will continue to do so why pay for shipping on all these different sites and whatnot. Now if I could order it all in one place and pay shipping once then I wouldn't have such an issue lol.
> ...






> I think you need to do your research over again since I pointed the issues out to you back in 2010 (see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...tuff-peat-moss-vs-cocofiber-2.html#post585754) in your thread and then suggested you read the bioseal thread. You have again conviently either misunderstood or "forgot" what you were told.....


still then the MSDS can underline effects but does it say that it leaches these same chemicals when completely cured? 



> And I will point out again that this response is meaningless in this case..
> 
> The back and forth is because you have repeatedly refused to accept the corrections of the bad information you are putting into this thread and have made accusations against the sources of that information. If you want me to not correct you then don't attempt to implicate me in your failure to quote the information correctly and/or your failure to research it so you understand it.
> 
> Ed


Um no I have not seen evidence that the silicone in fact leaches chemicals even when fully cured.
Sure you say there is toxins and all that but I have yet to see any ill effects from using GEII and I think if there was such an issue with it loads of members would be having those issues.

I think this GEII thing is not that serious and people are overreacting to it.
Although like I said I will try not to use it in the future.

This is pretty much you continuously coming at me about something that may or may not happen.
I think I have a better chance of winning the lottery than GEII posing any issues.

Besides the statements you say it CAN cause infertility, egg issues and whatnot not that it WILL for a fact cause these issues.
If there was really such a huge issue with it then I don't think so many would use it.

There is a poll on other forums and yeah GEI is the top choice but GEII isn't that far behind.

I'm not gonna keep going over this. You show me proof that it there is a more than 60% chance of these effects happening and that GEII does in fact leach things after it is cured then ok.

I am not lying when I say that loads of members have used GEII and had no ill outcome. That is fact so that contradicts the data and the data could just be an exaggerated precaution on GE's part to avoid lawsuits and whatnot.
This is pretty much just politics and you two are two of the front runners on the debate over GEII.
The data has been kinda proved wrong since no one has had ill effects and companies are know to exaggerate things to save their own butts.

I will try not to use it in the future if I have the money to order better stuff online and whatnot.
I wonder why the bioseal thread was sooo long....

btw that last reply was addressed to Pumilo.
also you left this part out:


> I would like to see someone actually take samples from the moisture on a background that had GEII used and to see if there is in fact traces of any chemicals.
> Also I have seen people use GEII on aquariums and not see any effects of the silicone.
> 
> Has there been any evidence that GEII leaches chemicals when cured?


I am done here. Have a great day guys.
Lets just agree to disagree and move on.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> their frogs have not showed symptoms of any syndromes and also their frogs are doing a fine job at breeding and the eggs are ok and the froglets are as well.
> That kinda makes it a fact since they have not had anything bad come out of using GEII.
> 
> Smoking cause cancer but will the person in fact get cancer....no.
> ...


How many times does it have to be stated that you are supplying useless anecdotal evidence that means nothing? Do you really think that people post every time they get a batch of failed eggs? Does everybody post each time a tadpole dies? Do they make absolutely sure that the world knows each time they get a tadpole with Spindly Leg Syndrome. Ridiculous! These are statements that you cannot reliably make without running large scale production experiments with many groups of breeding frogs in vivs with GE Silicone 1 and many groups of breeding frogs in vivs with GE Silicone 2. This has never been done. Until then, all the information known about these chemicals says that you are wrong.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I would like to see someone actually take samples from the moisture on a background that had GEII used and to see if there is in fact traces of any chemicals.
> Also I have seen people use GEII on aquariums and not see any effects of the silicone.
> 
> Has there been any evidence that GEII leaches chemicals when cured?


This is so utterly ridiculous it amazes me. Yes, they have proven that there are traces of the chemicals left in the water. Yes, there is evidence that GE Silicone 2 leaches chemicals when cured. The evidence has been given to you many times now but you obviously either refuse to read it or have a complete incomprehension regarding it. Here it is once again. http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/2d/2d9622c5-268d-4ab0-8dce-32dd186b8b72.pdf Since you do not understand it, let me sum it up. According to all testing done on GE silicone 2, it DOES leach chemicals into water. Go to page 4. *SOLUBILITY IN WATER (20 C) -- NEGLIGIBLE* (20 C is 68 F which is a temperature that falls into the range our vivs will see.)

Now go look at this MSDS sheet for GE Silicone 1. http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/2b/2b4de67e-87cb-4e48-b395-3ff978de0f7b.pdf Look at page 4. *SOLUBILITY IN WATER (20 C) -- INSOLUBLE* (20 C is 68 F which is a temperature that falls into the range our vivs will see.)

I really don't see how this can be stated any clearer. It is proven. It is fact. You are wrong.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Um no I have not seen evidence that the silicone in fact leaches chemicals even when fully cured.
> Sure you say there is toxins and all that but I have yet to see any ill effects from using GEII and I think if there was such an issue with it loads of members would be having those issues.


Can you prove GE II is not causing problems? How do you know that there is no connection between using GE II and SLS? Why would one use a possibly unsafe option when there is clearly a safer alternative? I'm going to take your lead and make a wildly general statement: "Loads" of people have morphed out froglets with SLS...can you say for certain that the organotins used in GE II are not to blame (at least in some cases)? It's great to be a skeptic...but skepticism without any research is just ignorance.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> How many times does it have to be stated that you are supplying useless anecdotal evidence that means nothing? Do you really think that people post every time they get a batch of failed eggs? Does everybody post each time a tadpole dies? Do they make absolutely sure that the world knows each time they get a tadpole with Spindly Leg Syndrome. Ridiculous! These are statements that you cannot reliably make without running large scale production experiments with many groups of breeding frogs in vivs with GE Silicone 1 and many groups of breeding frogs in vivs with GE Silicone 2. This has never been done. Until then, all the information known about these chemicals says that you are wrong.


yes but I think someone would see a difference in a viv where GEII was used




> This is so utterly ridiculous it amazes me. Yes, they have proven that there are traces of the chemicals left in the water. Yes, there is evidence that GE Silicone 2 leaches chemicals when cured. The evidence has been given to you many times now but you obviously either refuse to read it or have a complete incomprehension regarding it. Here it is once again. http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/2d/2d9622c5-268d-4ab0-8dce-32dd186b8b72.pdf Since you do not understand it, let me sum it up. According to all testing done on GE silicone 2, it DOES leach chemicals into water. Go to page 4. *SOLUBILITY IN WATER (20 C) -- NEGLIGIBLE* (20 C is 68 F which is a temperature that falls into the range our vivs will see.)
> 
> Now go look at this MSDS sheet for GE Silicone 1. http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/2b/2b4de67e-87cb-4e48-b395-3ff978de0f7b.pdf Look at page 4. *SOLUBILITY IN WATER (20 C) -- INSOLUBLE* (20 C is 68 F which is a temperature that falls into the range our vivs will see.)
> 
> I really don't see how this can be stated any clearer. It is proven. It is fact. You are wrong.


thanks for finally posting the evidence. MSDS sheets confuse me sometimes and like I said that bio seal thread is a headache.
How was I wrong tho? I asked if it would leach anything I did not say it would not leach anything.
Yet as I have said before no reports have been made and I bet if you took a GE I viv and a GEII viv and put the same type of frogs in there, there most likely wouldn't be an difference lol 

about your "SOLUBILITY" statement and about the leaching....
the is quoted from the GEII MSDS sheet...


> SOLUBILITY IN WATER (20 C): Negligible


here is the definition of negligible
neg·li·gi·ble/ˈneglijəbəl/
Adjective:	
So small or unimportant as to be not worth considering; insignificant.
Synonyms:	
insignificant - trifling - trivial - inconsiderable


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

fieldnstream said:


> Can you prove GE II is not causing problems? How do you know that there is no connection between using GE II and SLS? Why would one use a possibly unsafe option when there is clearly a safer alternative?


there has not been any reports of it.....and I have had many members tell me they have had no issues with it.



> I'm going to take your lead and make a wildly general statement: "Loads" of people have morphed out froglets with SLS...can you say for certain that the organotins used in GE II are not to blame (at least in some cases)?


I didn't say this and if they were using GEII and kept having SLS then I think that would have been mentioned.
With the avid debate about this I'm sure if someone posted about SLS they would ask if they are using GEII
Yes there is a safer route but not the cheapest or easiest.
Also if you refer to my reply to Pumilo....the solubility poses an insignificant threat...as the definition says "not worth concidering"
I'm not gonna spend and additional $8 or more on an insignificant threat.

I'll just ignore that ignorance part cause really all this concern is just politics and the threat is minute and virtually non existent according to the MSDS


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You do realize that it takes much less to poison a tiny frog than a human, don't you? Do you seriously think that frogs are the absolute top concern when MSDS sheets are being worked up? 
What happened to "I'm done here"?
I have never in my life met someone who can be staring at the facts and somehow look right through them and continue arguing without a single fact to try to back his ignorance up.
As long as you continue to post your made up and misinterpreted, WRONG information, one of us will be here to call you out on it.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> You do realize that it takes much less to poison a tiny frog than a human, don't you? Do you seriously think that frogs are the absolute top concern when MSDS sheets are being worked up?
> What happened to "I'm done here"?
> I have never in my life met someone who can be staring at the facts and somehow look right through them and continue arguing without a single fact to try to back his ignorance up.
> As long as you continue to post your made up and misinterpreted, WRONG information, one of us will be here to call you out on it.


wrong info?
You deny a screen shot and a definition?
Now who is being ignorant?

I'm sure the same applies to frogs and they would use this same info knowing people might use it for fish tanks and use it around other pets.

Yeah I did say I was done but I guess I wasn't now was I?
I do have the right to change my mind.
Yet I have made a valid point that the MSDS says that the threat is not worth considering.
Now is it a FACT that it WILL harm the frogs, NO.
I will try not to use it until the answer is 100% clear


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## rsain (Nov 5, 2011)

Dragon,

You keep missing the point. Let me make it abundantly clear:

1.A. MSDS sheets are based on results obtained from research using the scientific method. 

1.B. Your continued arguing is based on anecdotal evidence. 

1.C. As a result you are arguing against solid evidence using something that is not as powerful. No one worth their scientific salt will accept your so called 'evidence'. This does not mean you are lying.

1.D. You fail to understand the concept of FALSIFICATION. The only way for you to show that GEII does not cause problems is to establish the best experiment you can (see Ed's post about this - and I might add you need randomized control groups, blah blah blah) and then show results that indicate that GEII has no ill effects on the frogs.

Conclusion on point 1: No one is calling you a liar we are just not accepting your evidence. It's not a personal thing - it's science. If you want to brush up on your scientific method there are many resources online - please do so.

2.A. You made an assumption that the company making GEII thinks of fish and frogs when writing their MSDS. They do not and will not. This is because that is not the intended use of the product. So they are not going to research how it may or may not cause problems with fish, frogs, fruit flies or even foxes. 

2.B. Have you read the bottle? I will quote it for you: My tube of black GEII says this:

_*Typical uses: windows, doors, siding trim, molding, baseboards, vents, ground wires/pipes, and other attic/basement applications. * _

So that is what the MSDS is going to focus on. Those applications. Further, if you keep reading down the bottle,

_*Not for use below the water line, where FDA compliance is necessary, or aquariums.*_

And why might it say that? Probably because it hasn't been tested for that use. Not to mention that it IS water soluble to some degree (albeit negligible). 

Please stop advising people on what they should do with regard to GEII. The evidence is clear - it CAN/MAY cause a problem. Your argument about many people not experiencing a problem is not only non valid it is irresponsible.

- ryan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> You deny a screen shot and a definition?
> Now who is being ignorant?


You are... 

Endocrine disruptors can work in the parts per billion to parts per trillion range which is well within the definition of "negliable"... 

I am going to point out that once again, you are making an argument from a position of ignorance. I suggest you read the relevent posts again and do some research. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> do you mean this post??? cause I only mentioned clear GE I when asking if the peat would help die it when using solvents.


I suggest you reread that post in context. You supplied no indication that you were speaking about anything other than GE I. That is not my fault. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> still then the MSDS can underline effects but does it say that it leaches these same chemicals when completely cured? [/Quote}
> 
> You mean where the MSDS says solubility??
> 
> ...


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> That is fact so that contradicts the data and the data could just be an exaggerated precaution on GE's part to avoid lawsuits and whatnot.
> This is pretty much just politics and you two are two of the front runners on the debate over GEII.
> The data has been kinda proved wrong since no one has had ill effects and companies are know to exaggerate things to save their own butts.


Again, you are flaunting your ignorance of the subject by completely ignoring what is right in front of you. If, in fact, GE was exaggerating the FACT to save their own butt and to avoid lawsuits, then the GE Silicone 1 would say the same thing. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I wonder why the bioseal thread was sooo long....


Because it is full of INFORMATION. If you can manage to READ it you would see that.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> wrong info?
> You deny a screen shot and a definition?


I addressed that already. Do you seriously think they test these products for every use under the sun? You do realize it would take more of ANY substance to poison a human than to poison a tiny frog don't you? 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Now who is being ignorant?


I think it's more than clear that you are.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I'm sure the same applies to frogs and they would use this same info knowing people might use it for fish tanks and use it around other pets.


Why would they think that people would use it for fish tanks, frogs, and other pets? They already stated that it is not for use under the waterline. That right there tells you that it is not for use on frogs and fish. You again choose to ignore what is clearly stated RIGHT ON THE TUBE and announce to the world that it has been tested on fish, frogs, and all other pets. You have clearly simply made this up. 

You could simply state that you understand the risks but that you choose to take them anyway. Instead, you continue to try to spread your made up misinformation as fact. Give it up. You don't have a leg to stand on.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

lol and you still left the last part out Ed.


I am talking about GEII in this post then I mention GE1 at the end...



> Originally Posted by Ed
> I suggest you reread that post in context. You supplied no indication that you were speaking about anything other than GE I. That is not my fault.


I suggest you re-read the post Ed



> Originally Posted by DragonSpirit1185
> actually Ed I was going by what you told me.
> I got from what you have told me about *GEII* that it only messes with the eggs and the fertility of the eggs and not the frogs themselves and no mention of spindley leg syndrome.
> Maybe I misunderstood your statement about the fertility being about the eggs alone and not also with the frogs themselves.
> ...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Since you are going to look for something to try and bail you out lets put the whole thing into the correct context 
_


DragonSpirit1185 said:



I knew about the eggs and whatnot and I'm sure the concerning fertility or causing harm to an unborn child in GE silicone 1 is about the fumes.

Click to expand...

__


Ed said:



As Doug noted, there is no concern with the unborn with GE I.. (since the fumes are acetic acid, the same acid that is in vinegar) which is directly opposite of your statement that I quoted above..

Click to expand...

 _

_


Dragonspirit1185 said:



actually Ed I was going by what you told me.

Click to expand...

__After this is when you made the comment about GEII....._

_Ed _


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Again, you are flaunting your ignorance of the subject by completely ignoring what is right in front of you. If, in fact, GE was exaggerating the FACT to save their own butt and to avoid lawsuits, then the GE Silicone 1 would say the same thing.
> 
> nah then it would look suspicious. GEII contains things not in GE 1
> 
> ...


I think it is really sad how you two come at me with personal attacks lol.

Very immature.
I still stay on topic and try not to be insulting cause that is just childish.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> Since you are going to look for something to try and bail you out lets put the whole thing into the correct context
> 
> 
> 
> ...


fyi that was a typo dood lmfao excuse me I said the wrong one....maybe I am frustrated? haha
nitpicking.....*shakes head*


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I think it is really sad how you two come at me with personal attacks lol.
> 
> Very immature.
> I still stay on topic and try not to be insulting cause that is just childish.
> forget this I am out lol...this is why the bio seal thread was so long.


Didn't you say you were out at least twice before now? 




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Um I know this.
> I put my gerbil in a viv that I used clear GEII in and she ate the silicone and nothing happened. The Silicone had been put on there like 3 weeks before.




This is more anecdotal information and has no value in the thread.. It also does not demonstrate that there is no risk of endocrine disruption or teratogenesis.... 




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> made it up?
> So I didn't use it for my gerbil?
> I didn't use it on my turtle's tank?
> My sister didn't use it so reseal her fish tank?
> ...




Anecdotal and of no value.. See Ryans post above about scientific method.. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> You will be just fine using black GEII cause I have been told by a lot of people they have had nothing bad come from it./
> Tho I wouldn't use it to where it will come in direct contact with the frog's eggs.
> 
> If I thought it would hurt my frogs I would not use it.
> ...


How about starting with when you first stuck your nose into this thread and continuing all the way through to the end. I'm only going to bother showing the first entry.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> fyi that was a typo dood lmfao excuse me I said the wrong one....maybe I am frustrated? haha
> nitpicking.....*shakes head*


Is that why you denied it, and defended the claim that you didn't say it?? If it was a mistake you should have owned up to it over 3 pages ago instead once you are again caught out by your own words, you claim it was a mistake and that I am nitpicking. Again you are attempting to pass off bad information on your part as a mistake when you can no longer defend the fact that you did say it. 

GE I is not a risk to the animals once it has cured. The risk from the fumes as per the MSDS are not the same as that of GE II once GE II has cured. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Correcting your nonstop spewing of bad information is not nitpicking.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> Is that why you denied it, and defended the claim that you didn't say it?? If it was a mistake you should have owned up to it over 3 pages ago instead once you are again caught out by your own words, you claim it was a mistake and that I am nitpicking. Again you are attempting to pass off bad information on your part as a mistake when you can no longer defend the fact that you did say it.
> 
> GE I is not a risk to the animals once it has cured. The risk from the fumes as per the MSDS are not the same as that of GE II once GE II has cured.
> 
> Ed


look back at the post....you quoted me on that quote I just posted then you said the above quote.
I thought you was referring to the post in which you quoted.
read over that again and you will see.




Pumilo said:


> Correcting your nonstop spewing of bad information is not nitpicking.


nonstop? 
exaggeration lol
Go around to each thread and badger those who are using GEII......but you won't....

points have been made and this horse is dead.
/unsubscribes


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> look back at the post....you quoted me on that quote I just posted then you said the above quote.
> I thought you was referring to the post in which you quoted.
> read over that again and you will see.


More attempts to pass a multipage defence as a mistake.. I followed the context. You attempted to defend it for more than 3 pages... 

GE I is safe, GE II may not be safe.. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> look back at the post....you quoted me on that quote I just posted then you said the above quote.
> I thought you was referring to the post in which you quoted.
> read over that again and you will see.
> 
> ...


nonstop is a slight exaggeration. I think it is quite justified when you go back and look at your track record. You present more misinformation than anybody else on DB.
There is no need to badger those using GE2. They have made their choice. If, however, they begin telling everybody that GE2 is just as safe as GE1, they way you are presenting it, I will point out the MSDS to them too. In fact, I have pointed many towards the Bio-seal thread. But then you already know that since you pointed out that I am one of the biggest supporters of using GE 1. That would make it yet another lie, since you say that I won't, yet you have already stated that you know very well that I have.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

being the nosy type, and after all the back-and-forth on this one subject...I just HAD to go to Brandon's member site...and then to his 10G Noob build...despite his many posts, it really makes me wonder at his depth of knowledge and hubris to be making such dramatic, authoritative statements...and the rest of the responses are most interesting to plow through. You experts have been more patient than I sure would be, but I guess you want to make damn sure that your experiences and observations, backed up by facts...are what the readers are ultimately left with.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Ed--you referred to being able to purchase silicone from "Twin Oaks"--I've gone through all sorts of Google sites and hope you can steer us toward the correct place...thanks...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> Ed--you referred to being able to purchase silicone from "Twin Oaks"--I've gone through all sorts of Google sites and hope you can steer us toward the correct place...thanks...


If you google Twin Oaks and aquarium it puts you right to this site Glasscages.com - Home 

I've been dealing with them since before they were glasscages.. 

Ed


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

I just wanted to jump in here regarding the Silicone...

I personally use GE *2* silicone (i get it from lowes/home depot) and it comes in brown/bronze/almond as well as black/white/etc. I have used GE2 since day 1 and never had problems, although I primarily deal with chameleons and more "open-air" setups than the frogs most of you have (i do have frogs too, which also have had no problems, but I don't breed).

GE 1 silicone is never available....and the very few tubes I have found are either "kitchen and bathroom" or otherwise "mold inhibitors" that I have been warned distinctly to steer clear of. Now, I follow the discussion here that the "inhibitors" are not all the same thing and much of it can be bs marketing, but after *EXCESSIVE* searching on my part to get "the right stuff" I gave into buying GE2 and it has been fine so far. 

_I'm not making any claims whatsoever that GE2 works "as fact." But what I *AM* claiming, is that the ease of obtaining GE2, the colors available, the lower cost (I pay $5.xx a tube, why pay $8+shipping?) and the lack of any noticeable negative effects makes me willing to take a RISK on buying the GE2. _

just my 2 cents


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

@Dragonspirit: as far as testing goes, you having used it on whatever is not a "test". Testing consists of formal, laboratory procedures with proper controls and appropriate testing apparatus. 


Just because your gerbil ate a piece or you used it on your frogs tank does not mean ANYTHING. 


Its basic logic really....you can prove something false by showing 1 example of it being false. But you can *NOT* prove something true merely by showing 10000000000000 examples of it being true.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Correlation does not imply causation


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

EvilLost said:


> I just wanted to jump in here regarding the Silicone...
> 
> I personally use GE *2* silicone (i get it from lowes/home depot) and it comes in brown/bronze/almond as well as black/white/etc. I have used GE2 since day 1 and never had problems, although I primarily deal with chameleons and more "open-air" setups than the frogs most of you have (i do have frogs too, which also have had no problems, but I don't breed).
> 
> ...


*
Somebody* is going to ask why I am not jumping down your throat about this, so let me beat him to the punch. The difference in your post is that you are saying that you understand the risks and you are deciding to take the risks anyway. Obviously, that is your choice to make. As you are not announcing to the world that GE silicone 2 is absolutely as safe as the other choices out there, there is no need for anyone to correct the post.
However, if you wanted help finding GE Silicone 1, Lowes stocks it regularly in clear. Here is a link to the GE Silicone 1 product that I use. Shop GE 9.8 Oz. Clear Silicone at Lowes.com


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> _*Somebody*_ is going to ask why I am not jumping down your throat about this, so let me beat him to the punch. The difference in your post is that you are saying that you understand the risks and you are deciding to take the risks anyway. Obviously, that is your choice to make. As you are not announcing to the world that GE silicone 2 is absolutely as safe as the other choices out there, there is no need for anyone to correct the post.
> However, if you wanted help finding GE Silicone 1, Lowes stocks it regularly in clear. Here is a link to the GE Silicone 1 product that I use. Shop GE 9.8 Oz. Clear Silicone at Lowes.com


I also saw nothing wrong with his post which is why I simply passed it by.


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## kharma (Dec 28, 2011)

As i read this thread i gained some knowledge of the different combinations to use considering i am a new guy to this. I also know about the effects that GE2 may cause. Not to start the nitpicking up again, but Ed and Doug you both were incredibly rude with the insulting and i understand it seemed as if he was just ignoring the facts that you posted for him. He never once said either of you were wrong really just simply stated others had used it and hadn't noticed anything bad happen. But really you both seem like grown men that are both clearly knowledgeable about what you are talking about, but do you really have to insult someone continuously? That is what kept him coming back to post something else because it is most males nature to defend themselves when they become insulted.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

kharma said:


> As i read this thread i gained some knowledge of the different combinations to use considering i am a new guy to this. I also know about the effects that GE2 may cause. Not to start the nitpicking up again, but Ed and Doug you both were incredibly rude with the insulting and i understand it seemed as if he was just ignoring the facts that you posted for him. He never once said either of you were wrong really just simply stated others had used it and hadn't noticed anything bad happen. But really you both seem like grown men that are both clearly knowledgeable about what you are talking about, but do you really have to insult someone continuously? That is what kept him coming back to post something else because it is most males nature to defend themselves when they become insulted.


Hi, welcome to the board. 
You may want to look at a few other posts before you come to someone's defense. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out why people would be rude...though I do understand your point. I can tell you from first-hand experience that both Ed and Doug are incredibly nice people, it takes quite a bit to push them to rudeness...a little research will open your eyes to the truth of why normally placid people become "insulting."


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## kharma (Dec 28, 2011)

fieldnstream said:


> Hi, welcome to the board.
> You may want to look at a few other posts before you come to someone's defense. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out why people would be rude...though I do understand your point. I can tell you from first-hand experience that both Ed and Doug are incredibly nice people, it takes quite a bit to push them to rudeness...a little research will open your eyes to the truth of why normally placid people become "insulting."


I read through all of the posts on this thread and the ones linked. I also went back to see why Ed kept referring to it and read through that. I can see why they would be pushed like that, but the way they handled it could have been better. I agree that they are both incredibly helpful in most of their posts though. They are very knowledgeable of most of the things on the site. I was simply just chiming in. I see their posts all the time as i always read on this site, but never actually posted. Just came here for info. Anyways no need to add any more spark to the fire. Thanks for the welcome!


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Heres when you should grab your bag of popcorn ladies and gentlemen! 


Just kidding haha 
Welcome aboard !


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

kharma said:


> I read through all of the posts on this thread and the ones linked. I also went back to see why Ed kept referring to it and read through that. I can see why they would be pushed like that, but the way they handled it could have been better. I agree that they are both incredibly helpful in most of their posts though. They are very knowledgeable of most of the things on the site. I was simply just chiming in. I see their posts all the time as i always read on this site, but never actually posted. Just came here for info. Anyways no need to add any more spark to the fire. Thanks for the welcome!


Have you seen me making a habit of being rude towards everyone or is it just this one person? Maybe, just maybe, there is more to the story that you know nothing about. Somebody on this board continues to post bad information and if left unchecked, will cost people dearly. This same person likes to send incredibly rude and nasty PMs and for some reason, prefers to burn his bridges before he ever crosses them. You may wish to research the issue further before passing judgement. If he could learn to sit back quietly, learn, and quit insulting people I would have no problem with him. As long as he continues to post information that can endanger people's pets, I will try to correct that information.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

He/she is entitled to thier opinion. I don't see any need to get my underwear in a bunch over it. Either they will see the issues over time or they won't. The links in this thread don't tie into the worst information. That occured in a different thread. 
It is always good to see someone come out of the shadows and onto the board. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I strongly suspect that there is more than one dragon on this thread. That would be a clear violation of of the DB user agreement should a second dragon arise.


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## Micro (Dec 26, 2011)

wow...

Thats pretty much all ive got to say about this whole thread lol
Im glad that I have several seemingly well educated people here on DB. Next time i am doing a research project or a study for college i will simply post some info on here and let Ed and Pumilo go at it and get some free research info. 
haha

I am taking my forensics class next semester so we can figure out if GEII did cause SLS leading to the death of the frogs or if it was just the other frog who was jealous of his coloration! dun dun dun


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## kharma (Dec 28, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> I strongly suspect that there is more than one dragon on this thread. That would be a clear violation of of the DB user agreement should a second dragon arise.


What the hell? Because someone says something about the way you are treating others automatically means it is the same person on a different account?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

kharma said:


> What the hell? Because someone says something about the way you are treating others automatically means it is the same person on a different account?


Well, for starters, nobody named you. I could have been talking about someone else. Second, "The Dragon" is a term that arose in the Thunder Dome, which you would imply that you have not been in. The implication arises from the fact that you seem to have no idea what is really going on here for over a year. If you did, you would not be wanting to have you first post affiliate yourself with the dragon. Unless of course, you know more than you would care to have us know, but that would carry a new implication with it that I think you can figure out. 
"Because someone says something about the way you are treating others automatically means it is the same person on a different account?" 
No, but it is a possibility. In either case, the dragon is being closely watched for any infractions. Trust me, not just by the four obvious ones. Think about it from someone else's point of view. Somebody shows up out of nowhere, having never posted before. In fact, not even a being a member before making said post. Then they don't post anything else except for in this thread. Follow this up with the fact that the vast majority of DB users are not posting from over a cell phone. But the dragon does...and so do you. Top it off with the fact that the Dragon is always quick to thank anybody he feels is on his side, which can get funny sometimes when he doesn't get that they aren't. But the Dragon carefully avoided thanking you for several days. And yes, he knows you posted as he was seen checking back on this thread.
In your defense, you are rather insulted at being thought to be affiliated with the dragon. So, maybe I'm wrong. Time will tell. If I am wrong, I deeply apologize because if I am wrong, I hit you below the belt. If I am wrong, my advice is to make sure you know what is going on before jumping to his aid because you don't know what you are going to land in. You have no idea what it took on his part to lead up to this. You have not read through his posts, and even if you did, the worst of them have been censored. You have no idea what kind of nasty PMs have been sent by him. Finally, you have no idea what kind of misinformation he spreads all over the board when he has never even kept a dart frog.
So please, clean off your shoes, walk over to the next thread, and we can meet and shake hands outside of another one of Brandon's battlefields.


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## kharma (Dec 28, 2011)

I am posting over a laptop not a cell phone. Second look at our grammar and english, that alone proves we are completely two different people. Everyone of his posts has a spot where you say what the hell? So if you can again come up with a great reason as to how we are the same person go ahead. Again check the ip of us two. That should prove the fact that we are two different people. Hopefully i never run into you again.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Me thinks he doth protest too much...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

kharma said:


> Everyone of his posts has a spot where you say what the hell?


Find one of my posts anywhere where I have said that.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Stop bickering all.

Last warning.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

To get back on track, somewhat....there have been posts--somewhere--that you can thin silicone and mix it with ground spag./peat with toulene and be able to "paint" onto things. Another poster suggested mineral spirits instead...but will the spirits evaporate and be safe to use in vivs which is the case with toulene???


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Judy S said:


> To get back on track, somewhat....there have been posts--somewhere--that you can thin silicone and mix it with ground spag./peat with toulene and be able to "paint" onto things. Another poster suggested mineral spirits instead...but will the spirits evaporate and be safe to use in vivs which is the case with toulene???


Probably not. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/77313-tinning-silicone.html


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

thank you...even though I had already gone through that post, I was sort of looking for more information about it...purchasing toulene here in MD is difficult because I was told that some people use it in making Meth... and I guess I was looking for an easier way to do it....but that it had to be reliably safe above all...


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Judy really?
That explains the lO_Ok I got when purchasing It at my local hardware store... 
It's ridiculous what people will do!


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

That's what I was told when I purchased a gallon of it from Sherwin-Williams here in MD.--it amazed me. The salesgal told me that they checked me out to see whether I looked suspicious...and explained about the meth thing.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Well here at my local hardware store when I purchased it I was asked what I needed it for. I explained that it was being used to build a vivarium to house poison dart frogs... 
I then received a funny look and was asked "are them those frogs ya' lick and get high off of?" 


This is Alabama though... It wouldn't suprise me if some backwoods ******* was licking tree frogs to get high... 

Entertaining and ... Stupid


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dartolution said:


> Well here at my local hardware store when I purchased it I was asked what I needed it for. I explained that it was being used to build a vivarium to house poison dart frogs...
> I then received a funny look and was asked "are them those frogs ya' lick and get high off of?"
> 
> 
> ...


That reference is actually to Colorado River Toads... and yes there are people that licked them... 

Ed


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> That reference is actually to Colorado River Toads... and yes there are people that licked them...
> 
> Ed


The guy who did the "Cain Toads: an unnatural history" documentary did a newer program on the same subject and has a segment on it about a dog who has a thing for licking toads

Dobby's story - Cane Toads: The Conquest on Vimeo

lol, I really love that guy's work


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## Tadbit (Jul 16, 2010)

Ed said:


> That reference is actually to Colorado River Toads... and yes there are people that licked them...
> 
> Ed


Good grief. 

It never ceases to amaze me the levels of discovery, ingenuity, bizarreness, and ultimate depravity people sink to just to achieve a high. Very sad.


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Sad and disgusting at the same time! 
I can not believe that people do this... 
Lick frogs/toads... 

Geeze! What is this world coming to? 

... Wow I sound like my grandparents ... :/


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tadbit said:


> Good grief.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me the levels of discovery, ingenuity, bizarreness, and ultimate depravity people sink to just to achieve a high. Very sad.


You mean worse than burning your chest and rubbing it with an upset Phyllomedusa bicolor or taking yopo like the natives in South America (see http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/snorting-yopo-yanomamo-indians/18302_) or as part of a ritual drinking urine of a person who ingested Amanita muscarina? 

But this is an extreme hijack so we should get back on topic... 

Ed


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Yeah, if you ever get a chance to see some film of someone doing yopo you get the distinct impression it's not a wholly enjoyable experience. 

But people (and seemingly animals) like to get high


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