# Drainage layer question



## Calayvie (Apr 1, 2017)

I posted this question in another forum but I'm hoping to get answers here too.

I'm planning on building a viv and I've come across scoria (lava rock?) being used as a drainage layer instead of, say, leca/clay balls.

Scoria is cheap and so is very appealing to me right now, but I can't find many accounts of it being used and so i suspect there might be a good reason not to use it.

So, is scoria no good for the drainage layer and if so why?
If it is good, why is leca/clay balls so much more popular, what are the comparisons?

Thanks for any help!

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## Calayvie (Apr 1, 2017)

I think there's something wrong with my tapatalk or something, it says there is 1 reply but I can't see it?

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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Though I haven't done a side-by-side comparison, I would suspect that most volcanic rock (aside from pumice), would be heavier than the available counterparts that you mentioned. There is another hydroponic media that you may be unaware of called Growstone, that is cheap when purchased in bulk, and much lighter than LECA or scoria.


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## Tomahawk3Niner (Mar 7, 2017)

What about using just pure hardwood charcoal? pretty light comparatively, black, natural filter?


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## Calayvie (Apr 1, 2017)

Dane said:


> Though I haven't done a side-by-side comparison, I would suspect that most volcanic rock (aside from pumice), would be heavier than the available counterparts that you mentioned. There is another hydroponic media that you may be unaware of called Growstone, that is cheap when purchased in bulk, and much lighter than LECA or scoria.


Thanks Dane for the response!

I'll look into the Growstone, sounds interesting. Although not sure what 'bulk' would mean as I don't require tonnes of it, just enough for... Well 1 3ft tank and maybe 2 smaller ones if my newfound viv obsession holds up after building this first one 

I actually didn't realise the clay would be THAT light, that it'd be significantly lighter than lava rock, (not that I've had any experience handling lava rock either.)

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## Calayvie (Apr 1, 2017)

Tomahawk3Niner said:


> What about using just pure hardwood charcoal? pretty light comparatively, black, natural filter?


Thanks Tomahawk3Niner for the suggestion. I haven't heard of charcoal being used.

Have you suggested this because you've tried it and it worked?


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## Tomahawk3Niner (Mar 7, 2017)

Calayvie said:


> Thanks Tomahawk3Niner for the suggestion. I haven't heard of charcoal being used.
> 
> Have you suggested this because you've tried it and it worked?
> 
> ...


I am using it in my grow out and the exotics shop owner I got my tincs from uses it in all his vivs, seems fine and looks good too

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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

I second Dane, you can get Growstone or similar all over the place now, not just hydroponics stores, and it's going to cost you <$10 for a single tank. 

Pat


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## Calayvie (Apr 1, 2017)

patm said:


> I second Dane, you can get Growstone or similar all over the place now, not just hydroponics stores, and it's going to cost you <$10 for a single tank.
> 
> Pat


Thanks for the second patm

I've done a bit of reading of Growstones and it seems there is a few issues with it, the biggest being a rise in pH. I read that the growstones actually contained a buffer to lower the pH, which I don't like the idea of in my tank. I'm not sure if manufacturing of them has changed because I read peoples accounts and quotes of the products description but then what I found on growstones product description did not mention pH buffers in the product ... Which could explain the complaints about raised pHs with use. 

Also I read that they crumbled easily, and I don't particularly want my drainage layer to collapse over time, or clog up my drain tube I will have in the back right corner.

Does anyone have any experience with these issues?

Thanks! 

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## Calayvie (Apr 1, 2017)

Tomahawk3Niner said:


> I am using it in my grow out and the exotics shop owner I got my tincs from uses it in all his vivs, seems fine and looks good too
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk


Tomahawk3Niner Thankyou.

I'm new to this whole new world of viv and creature care so forgive my ignorance but what do you mean by "tincs"? (I know its irrelevant to the topic but I'll only learn by asking questions!)

Black would definitely look good in the base...  (damn! I think I'm getting obsessed when the colour of the drainage layer can have so much appeal!)

I will have to read up more on it I think. 
Does it crumble easily? 
Is it pH neutral? 
Where can I get it?

Will beneficial bacteria grow on it?
Will it act like the charcoal in filters and remove stuff from the water, like tannins and chemicals, and then reach a saturation point?

Thanks! 



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## cjkpa1 (Dec 17, 2016)

Tincs is a type of frog DENDROBATES TINCTORIUS


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## cjkpa1 (Dec 17, 2016)

Also as far as the lava rock just use the search function you will find almost any question you have has been asked countless times


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## Calayvie (Apr 1, 2017)

cjkpa1 said:


> Also as far as the lava rock just use the search function you will find almost any question you have has been asked countless times


Ckjpa1. Countless times? Maybe there is something wrong with my tapatalk, but I can only find 3 other posts aside from mine, with mere passing mention of "lava rock", and I've already read them. 
Maybe if you have time you could kindly provide links for me please? I'm all for doing my research and I want to read more than the responses I get on this thread. No offense to anyone  I really appreciate everyone's help, experience and knowledge, and having a conversation with someone is really nice too!  

Thanks!



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## Calayvie (Apr 1, 2017)

cjkpa1 said:


> Tincs is a type of frog DENDROBATES TINCTORIUS


And wow, I just quickly looked them up! They are gorgeous and my son also would love them, he has been looking at poison darts in books lately... I'm pretty sure I can't keep them in Australia, and I am happy to look after native species, but damn these colourful frogs are amazing aren't they? I really don't know much about them but their tadpole carrying and caring thing is amazing (not sure if all dart frog species do this or not), but we were looking at some red and black/white spotted ones last night in a book, a male with 2 taddies on his back. Amazing! 

Cjkpa1 do you keep these frogs?

I didn't know some of these types could get so big!

I kind of feel out of place here because I don't and can't own any dart/poison arrow frogs.  

But its an active forum with dedicated and knowledgeable people that do natural vivariums and care about their frogs so I feel I can still relate and gain knowledge here. So that's OK yeah?

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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

I've used hydroton/clay drainage as well as a false bottom (plastic egg crate propped up by short PVC sections). I just got back into the hobby but my current vivarium was set up in 2009 with the false bottom method. The thumbnail frogs in the tank had passed shortly after a move and I simply stuck the whole vivarium, plants included, into the basement with dim lighting from a window. I watered it twice between 2009 and present day. Not only did three plant species survive this neglect (two grew so vigorously they forced the lid open) but the microfauna are still thriving. I used brown silicone smeared on the inside of the glass to hide the false bottom area* (since it's the least aesthetically pleasing drainage layer), and it blends surprisingly well with the soil. There's a noticable color difference but I find that my eyes and those of my visitors never wander below the leaf litter. This tank has been pruned, with some new substrate and plants added, and it's back on display.

*One thing I would've done differently is to leave a narrow window in the silicone in an inconspicuous spot so that it's possible to visually check the water level in the false bottom. This would be vital in a drilled tank with a misting system.

On the flip side, in my vivarium with hydroton, the substrate just stayed too moist and plants and microfauna suffered for it. I tore it down a year after it's construction. I probably needed more than just the 4-5 inches of drainage I used... 

The abridged version is that I personally prefer the false bottom method.

Good luck with your project!


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## Calayvie (Apr 1, 2017)

Marinarawr said:


> I've used hydroton/clay drainage as well as a false bottom (plastic egg crate propped up by short PVC sections). I just got back into the hobby but my current vivarium was set up in 2009 with the false bottom method. The thumbnail frogs in the tank had passed shortly after a move and I simply stuck the whole vivarium, plants included, into the basement with dim lighting from a window. I watered it twice between 2009 and present day. Not only did three plant species survive this neglect (two grew so vigorously they forced the lid open) but the microfauna are still thriving. I used brown silicone smeared on the inside of the glass to hide the false bottom area* (since it's the least aesthetically pleasing drainage layer), and it blends surprisingly well with the soil. There's a noticable color difference but I find that my eyes and those of my visitors never wander below the leaf litter. This tank has been pruned, with some new substrate and plants added, and it's back on display.
> 
> *One thing I would've done differently is to leave a narrow window in the silicone in an inconspicuous spot so that it's possible to visually check the water level in the false bottom. This would be vital in a drilled tank with a misting system.
> 
> ...


Wow, Thankyou Marinarawr for sharing your experience, it sounds amazing, after a sad start  

I see the benefits of a false bottom with eggcrate and you do make me think...
Although, it is somewhat unsightly but functionality is my main concern, really, when it comes down to it, I want my frog to be happy, otherwise I've wasted my time and the life/happiness of a frog. And I could cover up the base with silicon as you did...

So do I really need 4-5 inches of drainage material??! I don't think I can do that in my tank. That seems heaps! I was going to cut it short at 1.5in, expecting 2in was enough. No misting, occasional watering when getting dry, but with a water section I wasn't really worried about humidity, and it sounds like the drainage system really wicks that water back up there. I may be draining the bottom frequently. Which, if once weekly, is OK with me. I'll have orchid bark mix, and maybe leaf litter in the soil for extra drainage. Both ends of the top should be screen. I'm not after a really humid condition for the frog, they are native to my area which is mainly dry with heavy rains about once a year. 

I would more readily consider eggcrate if it seemed to be easier to find. I've heard its difficult to source here. I will check with some places, I may want it for the steps in the water section anyway, but the good bacteria growing on the medium of the drainage layer was also a draw to that system. 

It really is its own ecosystem isn't it? What plants, animals, substrate, insects/invertebrates, lighting, ventilation, temp, water +/-, enclosure size, etc,... It all affects how well a drainage layer or false bottom will work in that environment. Its exciting and scary at the same time. I want it to work first go, but I'll only learn more about my "ecosystem" that I've created if it fails (at least once)!
How daunting.  



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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm sorry to give you so many doubts about hydroton drainage! Many have used it long term with great success, but for some reason it just didn't work out for me. Also, I personally don't like the orange color. Here are some threads with various drainage methods:

This is a long one but it contains instructions for siliconing in a slanted glass bottom for drainage.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/32289-constructing-european-type-vivarium-step-step.html

More opinions
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/73600-egg-crate-false-hydroton.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/107353-good-hydroton-substitute.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/70926-when-false-bottom-when-hydroball.html

Just a few more threads with some additional opinions and info to help you decide.


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## Calayvie (Apr 1, 2017)

Marinarawr said:


> I'm sorry to give you so many doubts about hydroton drainage! Many have used it long term with great success, but for some reason it just didn't work out for me. Also, I personally don't like the orange color. Here are some threads with various drainage methods:
> 
> This is a long one but it contains instructions for siliconing in a slanted glass bottom for drainage.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...ructing-european-type-vivarium-step-step.html
> ...


Marinarawr you're a star! Thanks heaps for the links!  

I looked at Scoria/lava rock today at a hardware/garden store. Conveniently there was a bag with a rip  (no... it wasn't me, I was just lucky), so I had a close look at some of the pieces. Its very rough... I don't think its a good idea for a burrowing frog enclosure, just in case froggy digs into the weedmat and sticks his butt into that rough stuff... 
Clay balls look really good now  nice and round... not pointy.

I may use the lava rock for a couple of smaller vivs, where I think I'll have scorpions.  (What do you mean "think" Calayvie? You can barely wait!)

I still haven't ruled out charcoal, as was mentioned before, but I'm still trying to find further info about it.

Growstones probably completely out. I don't want something with either added buffers, or that will elevate pH of the water. 

I should find a source for eggcrate, so at least the main reason I may decide not to go that way wouldn't be simply because I couldn't get a hold of any. The lightness of eggcrate is appealing.




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