# 165G Paleo Viv



## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

*165G Paleo Viv*

This is a continuation of another discussion about my new project that will feature geologically old and/or evolutionarily basal plants and inverts. Here is the link to that thread... 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/80143-paleo-viv-concept-thread-4.html

I have the enclosure put together but it still needs more work. It has an inside volume of about 165 gallons.










I have applied a single coat of epoxy resin to ever surface inside and out. I could have just used an oil-based enamel paint for the outside, but I figured that epoxy would be a good idea to make it somewhat stronger. The birch plywood has a very thin laminate that chips easily and I wanted some extra strength to avoid chips. 

I hope that I can adequately seal the inside with two additional coats(?). I also have one yard of fiberglass cloth and I intend to apply it only over the inside bottom up the sides to the depth of the false bottom and substrate. I don't really think I need fiberglass over the whole inside. Does that sound right?

The tank will also need three large glass panels. This much 1/4" plate will cost a lot and also make the enclosure much heavier. I also wondered about using 1/8" or 1/16" polycarbonate, but I don't have very good ideas for attaching it. Maybe I could use adhesive Dual Lock all around combined with a rubber weather stripping for semi-watertightness(?). It would be nice to keep this thing light in weight. As it is now it is easy for me to pick it up by myself.


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## Ray (May 12, 2009)

I would think that standard 1/8" glass would be fine.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

That would have been my first choice, but do you think 1/8" glass will be strong enough? The two side panels will be like 40" X 26". I would worry about the glass getting knocked during a move or whatever.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

For a viv that large, definitely 1/4 inch glass, just for the reassurance


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Nice to see this becoming reality!

I fed a hoverfly to a chameleon in a glass cage-and was surprised to see that it navigated the glass just fine. I dunno if it was able to see the glass are perhaps feel it as it flew up to it. I don't known when diptera come into the fossil record-also I think syrphid flies would probably want flowers to get nectar from... But they would probably do pretty well in that tank.

It is a big tank so if you had some water I think damselflies would be interesting and free to at least try. They might drain their batteries trying to fly through the walls/ceiling, but particularly if you hatch them in tank things might be different.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Dendrobait said:


> Nice to see this becoming reality!
> 
> I fed a hoverfly to a chameleon in a glass cage-and was surprised to see that it navigated the glass just fine. I dunno if it was able to see the glass are perhaps feel it as it flew up to it. I don't known when diptera come into the fossil record-also I think syrphid flies would probably want flowers to get nectar from... But they would probably do pretty well in that tank.
> 
> It is a big tank so if you had some water I think damselflies would be interesting and free to at least try. They might drain their batteries trying to fly through the walls/ceiling, but particularly if you hatch them in tank things might be different.


Yeah there are lots of other inverts that I can try out to see how they do. I am going to plant to add two or three different kinds of roaches as more or less permanent residents, then try to combine with one or a few other compatible animals.

I also wondered about mud dauber wasps. I really like mud daubers. Maybe I could feed them with a nectar solution and bee pollen and give them some mud for nest-building(?). 

The other day I caught a lone female _Phidippus audax_. I usually only see one or two of these each summer, but I want to try to get a few more. Maybe I could get a colony started if I put several individuals in a large enclosure with plenty of food. 

I am just going to use 1/8" glass and I think it will be fine. All the windows in our house are 1/8" or 3/32" glass and after all our house is just a really big vivarium (it's stuffed full of plants, LOL). I have only ever seen windows busted by tornadoes and by projectiles. The 1/8" glass will be a lot lighter and it will cost less than half as much as the plate. 

I have the whole box sealed inside and out with resin. I am going to reinforce the inside bottom seams and a few inches up the side vertical seams with a thickened epoxy fillet before applying the fiberglass. I want to find a big plastic syringe or empty caulk tube for applying the bead of thickened resin.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Hmm I never thought about mud daubers. Yes, they'd probably appreciate nectar solution(if they could find it in the tank). Mud daubers as you likely know provision those mud chambers with spiders-lots of crab spiders in my experience. That would be necessary to provide if you were to rear them.

If you could find and capture one of the species(such as the steely blue cricket hunter) that preys on crickets they'd be easiest to provide for. I've toyed the idea of keeping these guys. 

Phidippus are highly cannibalistic and will eat each other quickly IME. Maybe in a big tank you'd have luck. 

What might be interesting would be a huge communal of scorpions. Emperors are an obvious choice but maybe something small and arboreal like Centruroides gracilis.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah, I can't keep any more venomous stuff around here.

I think this thing will be pretty cool with just some different roaches in it. The main constraint with roaches will be to make sure they are not nibbling on plants. 

That's good to know that about _Phidippus_.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

I think millipedes would be cool for this project.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here is the whole thing sealed inside and out. I flipped it upside-down to coat the bottom. 










I really like the way everything comes together with this plywood + resin construction. The epoxy is super tough, but sands smooth very easily. I want to do some other projects like this. It would be fun to build a boat. I have seen some beautiful plywood sea kayaks around town.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I applied the fiberglass last night with another layer of resin. Man, that's a messy job. It was getting dark and I had to use a trouble light to finish it up, but it looks like it went on pretty good. I applied the fiberglass cloth only on the bottom and 7" up each side. I think I only really need it to protect around the edges of the false bottom and for the pressure points that the PVC pipe spacers will create.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Man, this is taking forever to finish the resin layers. I have already done like ten applications and gone through twenty-five dollars in sandpaper and disposable brushes. It looks like I need to touch up with just a couple more coats in a few spots and then I will be done.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got my _Gnetum gnemon_ seeds today in the mail. Supposedly these seeds take a whole year to germinate. I have read you can also start _Gnetum_ from cuttings. I know somebody who has little potted tree and I might ask him for a couple of cuttings to try to root them.









(Wikimedia Commons image: File:Gnetum gnemon.jpg - Wikimedia Commons)


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## Wings (Apr 1, 2012)

I've used 1/8" glass on multiple projects and it always ends up breaking/cracking, and with something the size you are building, I would be worried, personally. Glass tops, covers, sliding doors, you name it (all related to vivariums). The cost is very cheap and its incredibly easy to drill, but I have been spending money on 1/4"+ glass or appropriate acrylic for about a year and haven't had any issues since.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yep, I'm going ot using 1/4" plate glass.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I finally applied the last coat of resin. It took me forever and I used almost three quarts. Next time I build one of these I will be smarter and more efficient with the epoxy.

If you want to build a plywood tank I do not recommend the US Composites 635. This stuff is cheap and I found lots of references to it for fish tank construction, but it has several important problems. Use the Polygem clear coat instead. It is much better and it will save you in the long run.

Now I need to build the stand. I am also painting the outside of the enclosure plywood. I'm not 100% sure this whole thing will fit down the stairway of our old house, but I have a plan B in case it does not.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I finally got the finishes on this thing. It still needs glass and a lot of other stuff.










The green is like a sap green, but not quite as yellow. The bottom shelf will be the darkest of these light blues.










I need to decide the basic configuration for the planting and other things inside. This tank is quite tall because I wanted to leave space for a cycad, fan palm, a tree fern and two or three conifers to grow up. I stuck a few random plants inside to start getting an idea of the scale.










The whole thing is almost six feet tall. I will have to use a stepladder to get inside. I pondered building a sliding side entry for one side, but I like the idea of simple and clean glass panels better. I have long arms so I should be able to reach everything through the top.

Here it is with a branch feature that I started carving. I have an idea to use a horizontal trunk or branch as the main feature in the layout and planting it on top with ferns, mosses and other epiphytes. I don't think I will use this same one because I want to instead create the appearance of a conifer forest. So a straight fallen log will be more fitting. 










This is problematic because the log and the plants growing on it will conflict visually with the large plants planted into the bottom. I have wondered about placing the log on the left or right side side with most of the larger plants on the other side. The larger plants could alternatively be placed near the rear (left in this view) end of the tank, so their foliage will cover up the base of the log, but leave the front to project forward into the open space at the front. What do you think I should do?


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## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

This is really cool. I'd turn it into a microfauna paradise, and have roaches as macrofauna, since you want to go for a primitive invertebrate theme.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks very much. I'll keep some roaches in this setup if they don't nibble on the plants. This is mostly a plant display. I also have a couple of ideas for animals to put in the water feature.


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## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

hydrophyte said:


> Thanks very much. I'll keep some roaches in this setup if they don't nibble on the plants. This is mostly a plant display. I also have a couple of ideas for animals to put in the water feature.


I'd imagine that they'd go for the plants only if they had nothing else to eat. If you have some rotting leaves and logs they'd munch on that, plus any fruits/veggies/etc you throw in there.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

InvertaHerp said:


> I'd imagine that they'd go for the plants only if they had nothing else to eat. If you have some rotting leaves and logs they'd munch on that, plus any fruits/veggies/etc you throw in there.


Yes, I'll try some roaches. In addition to the large horizontal branch/log feature (I will carve this out of foam and seal with resin) I also tend to include several natural logs arranged on the bottom. These will make nice habitat for roaches.


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## GBR (Jun 7, 2013)

I like the green box. Haha.. Looking great so far!


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## jakesfarm (Aug 7, 2014)

Excited to see where this goes from here! 

Pretty colors...


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got this thing moved into the basement, but it still needs glass.

It's so tall. I almost wish that I had made it 6" shorter, but I'll be glad to have the extra height when I get the tree saplings and other taller plants going. I have to use a step stool to reach down inside. I think that I will actually build a polycarbonate door with a hinge to go into that end panel. The two side panels are too big to fit with doors.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I decided not to use the large horizontal log feature. I am including plants such as cycads and ferns that have very nice architecture and a horizontal shape will just obscure them.

So I will instead include some kind of vertical stump. Here is a quick sketch with a few plants and some eastern white cedar (_Thuja occidentalis_) stump.










I think this looks a lot better, but I'm not sure about using white cedar. It might be too strongly aromatic with chemicals that will harm plants and animals. Maybe these aged stumps with the bark still on will be OK(?).

I could also consider using large cypress stumps. There were some excellent large pieces for sale by travisc, but he said that he is moving away from the place where he got them and won't be able to get any more of them. 

Here is another view inside to better show the plants. There is a nagi tree (_Podocarpus nagi_), a small cycad frmo Mexico (_Zamia vasquezii_), a Montezuma cypress (_Taxodium mucronatum_) and a fan palm (_Licuala aurantiaca_). 










Of these I will use the fan palm and the Montezuma cypress. I have several of these cypresses that I started from seed. I figure they will blend well with everything else because they have such fine, lacy foliage. And they should help to create a convincing conifer forest understory.


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## Jax99 (Aug 25, 2014)

That came out really nice


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks. It needs a lot more work. I am just starting out with it.


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## Galli (May 20, 2014)

This is definitely a project I wish to follow.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I think I will just the eastern white cedar stumps. Cypress stumps like the ones that travisc posted for sale (quoted below), but smaller in diameter and taller, would have been perfect, but I think the white cedar will be OK. These cut stumps that I have were sitting out all summer and I can smell any odor from them at all. The bark is still on tight. 

I have an idea to grow mosses and small epiphytic ferns up one side of each stump. I will remove bark a few inches wide along a natural, vertical contour and then seal the bare with epoxy resin. Then I will glue strips of Hygrolon and/or tree fern fiber in place for planting. This should look really good planted with mosses and _Microgramma_ & other ferns. How does this sound?

You can see here that the cypress stumps have really cool roots on them. The white cedar, on the other hand, is pretty circular around the base, but I can also try to add some roots or maybe additional branches with some of these extra pieces of manzanita that I have. 



travisc said:


> *Big Stump #004 17x17x23*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Giga (Mar 31, 2011)

whered you find untreated 4x4 for the stand?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got them at Menards. You probably don't have Menards in your area, but any decent lumberyard should have cedar or fir 4X4s. Don't look for them at Home Depot. Home Depot lumber is crap.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

looks very nice. I have put many cedar branches in my big viv without any problems. if you want to try the 2 different club mosses that grow on my land I can figure out a way to get them down to you. I will hopefully be getting more into my indoor hobbies once fall and winter return and should be down at teds place to pick up some fish.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah that would be great to try some terrestrial clubmosses, although I understand that they transplant poorly. Have you tried planting them in your setups? I have a couple of interesting things as trade possibilities that you might like for your large setups.

I should get my _Zamia splendens_, a rainforest cycad, with the mail today...

Zamia splendens - Pacsoa

This plant should look good in this setup.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I found a new nursery source for ferns...

Asplenium trichomanes

Their prices are OK. 

They sell temperate garden plants, but so far I have seen that evergreen temperate ferns like _Asplenium_ and _Polystichum_ grow fine in terrariums. That place has a couple of interesting _Polystichum_.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

ive never had them transplant successfully but I do have about 5 acres of them so any amount I pull out grow back in before I can ever remember where it was.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

It took me forever, but I finally got back to work on this thing. It has been sitting empty this whole time and tonight I set it up with a quick false bottom and a light. The plants are still in their pots. Here are a few quick pictures.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here is a quick list with these plants that I have rounded up so far along with a few notes about fossil or evolutionary history.


_Blechnum gibbum_ I just stuck this one in there. I hope to find another terrestrial fern more unusual than _B. gibbum_. 
_Cunninghamia lanceolata_ I have several nice seedlings of this cool subtropical conifer. I probably won't use them in here now because I have the _Taxodium_ seedlings. 
_Licuala aurantica_ This is intended as a stand in for the fossil palm _Sabilites_ from the Cretaceous and Paleocene. _Licuala_ palms look nice in terrariums and this one is a smallish plant. 
_Michelia figo_ I just stuck this _Magnolia_ relative in there. I might not use it. The Magnoliaceae actually are not all that recent, but they retain primitive characters of some of the oldest flowering plants. Maybe I will try to get a hold of some other evergreen basal flowering plant, such as _Ilicium_ or _Chloranthus spicatus._ I have seen both of these on ebay.
_Pharus_ This is a really cool collector plant. It is believed to be one of the most evolutionarily basal grasses. The leaves are broad and fleshy and it looks more like a ginger than a grass. I was so happy when I found this one for sale.
_Podocarpus nagi_ This broad-leaved conifer is the tallest plant in the photo. It is too big and I probably won't use it in the setup. I might try to get a seedling _P. nagi_ or maybe I can find an _Agathis_ for sale. 
_Taxodium mucronatum_ I have four seedlings of Montezuma cyupress and I intend to use them all. This plant will reinforce the look of an ancient conifer forest. 
_Zamia splendens_ This is another cool plant I found on ebay. Many cultivated cycads originate more arid or seasonal areas, but Z. splendens is from rainforests of Chiapas, Mexico. It looks more like a rainforest plant. The new leaves flush a beautiful copper color. Check out the PACSOA page about it... Zamia splendens - Pacsoa


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

The big sheet of HDPE that I had ordered arrived with UPS today, so I can get back to work on this thing. For this setup I am building a Forest Floor assembly just like I did for my 37G tank...










I'm using a CNC wood router to cut this piece of stock. The router is a lot better then cutting with hole saws.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got a few more pretty cool plants, conifer trees, with the mail. I need to get out the camera.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got back to work on this thing again.

I put the false bottom assembly together. The plate and cutouts were cut in 1/4" HDPE with the CNC router. 










Here it is with just a couple of plants, a Montezuma cypress (_Taxodium mucronatum_) and golden swamp fan palm (_Licuala paludosa_).










I will use several of those Montezuma cypress seedlings as the main foliage plant. It will reinforce the look of a conifer forest and with that fine foliage it will also blend well with other plants and features.

The false bottom plate has lots of holes in it. I won't use half of the holes, but it needs to have numerous openings so that plants can be situated with space and in a nice composition. 

The _Licuala_ is intended to represent very old fossil fan palms. I link below a picture of a fossil _Sabalites_ from Wyoming. This is an Eocene (~50 million years ago) fossil, but there are similar palms known from Cretaceous fossils. 









(Wikimedia Commons image: File:Fossil Sabalites sp palm.jpg - Wikimedia Commons)

Here is the enclosure with a few more plants. The darker green conifer at lower right is a coast redwood (_Sequoia sempervirens_). I have had that little seedling growing well but nice and slow in terrarium condistions since last spring. The tall pale green plant at upper left is _Zamia splendens_. That's a real cool plant.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got the leaf litter and tree stumps into the enclosure for a preliminary layout. I have plans for several more features to add. 










I included a couple of dwarf fan palms and a few other plants. There are seven of the Montezuma cypress in there.










I also included a few manzanita branches just to see what they would look like. I will change all of this around some more, but these quick photos will give you a general idea.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I have a lot more work to do with this thing, but I was glad to get the leaf litter in there for abetter idea of how things look.

Here are additional features that I intend to add:


Alligator skull - It would have been preferable to use a replica dinosaur skull or bones, but the ones that I see for sale are all made with a stone fossil finish. This should instead look like natural bone from an animal that has died out in the forest. I see medium-size alligator skulls on ebay for like fifty bucks. An alligator skull of course looks a lot like the head of an alligator, but maybe it will be more enigmatic if I flip it upside down or just use the jaw. 
.
 Eggs in a nest - I wondered about trying to make replica ceramic dinosaur eggs myself. I think it would take me a long time to figure out the right color, texture and luster for the glaze. There are a few different sellers of replica bird eggs. I like the looks of the great egret egg... Great Egret Egg KO-412 These replicas are described as cast in plastic and "hand painted with permanent dyes and sealed with a resistant coating". I hope they would hold up well in a humid viv environment(?).
.
Log with plants - I plan to incorporate a fallen log with many mosses and other small plants planted on top. It will be a fairly slender branch (maybe 3") either in natural manzanita or carved in foam and sealed with epoxy. A planting surface like this will allow me to incorporate a greater variety of plants such as mosses, ferns and spikemosses. The picture below shows the planted branch that I made some time ago. 
.


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## Slengteng (Sep 16, 2014)

I cant wait to see this finalized! 

I have an idea for your egg problem! You could use real ostrich eggs, a few days omelette for the familie but it would be a real one!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks. An ostrich egg would be way too big for the scale of this project. I want to make a nest with three or five eggs in it. I had wondered about using emu eggs, which have a really cool color and texture. But emu eggs are also too large.









(Wikimedia Commons image: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Emu_Egg.JPG)


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## harrisbt (Feb 19, 2013)

Duck eggs -- a little bigger than chicken eggs, and they have really thick shells. Also probably pretty easy to acquire. Good luck!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah duck eggs might work. They have a more oval shape, so they don't look quite like chicken eggs. Natural eggs might become discolored pretty quick in this environment, but maybe I could seal with epoxy clear coat. I could even try a blue or dark green dye before coating. I should test it out with a chicken egg.


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

I like how this is coming along, very different

Have you checked out the prehistoric planet store?
They have a lot of cool museum grade replicas, I think I've seen eggs on there before.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I just looked around a little bit and there are many sources for blown duck eggs on etsy and wherever. They are pretty cheap too usually at just a couple bucks each. 

I have emptied out a chicken egg and I'm going to try the epoxy clear coat on it. I should be able to soften the glossy resin finish with emory paper or steel wool.


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## LittleMy (Nov 11, 2014)

You should have no problem painting the eggs/coating them with a sealant. You can buy matte acrylic clear coating products at an art/craft store. We paint eggs to hang on our Christmas tree and they last for decades -- we have some that are 35+ years old.

You can use natural product like onion skins and tumeric to dye/paint eggs and it will give you more natural looking colors.

If you have farmers or local backyard growers nearby, araucana produce really pretty blue-green eggs and a number of chickens produce speckled eggs. 
Fresh Eggs Daily®: A Rainbow of Egg Colors

It is pretty easy to hollow out the eggs yourself -- just use the tip of a knife to make a small hole in the top and the bottom, swirl a needle inside the egg, and then blow.


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## profjunk (Jun 23, 2010)

I have tried many types of cycads in terrariums most rot fast. also the leaves or the petioles get way to big
the best i ever had was cycas mitzholitzii

i really wanted to have the truly epiphitic zamia growing in every tank ,but it rots easily,now i have a very large vivarium, that i might try to grow another one, again ,up in the "dry"areas of this tank , it looks like one would go great in the "big green"you are building
jeff in arizona


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

LittleMy said:


> You should have no problem painting the eggs/coating them with a sealant. You can buy matte acrylic clear coating products at an art/craft store. We paint eggs to hang on our Christmas tree and they last for decades -- we have some that are 35+ years old.
> 
> You can use natural product like onion skins and tumeric to dye/paint eggs and it will give you more natural looking colors.
> 
> ...


Yeah I think I can figure something out. Epoxy clear coat will make a real tough seal. I like that dark green color of emu eggs. There are many sources for pretty cheap blown eggs of all kinds. 

Thanks for pasting that link! That page has some interesting details about colors in chicken eggs. I don't know if there is any evidence or speculation about colored eggs in non-avian dinosaurs. I have looked around a little but I haven't found anything. They had a long period of time to evolve egg pigments. 



profjunk said:


> I have tried many types of cycads in terrariums most rot fast. also the leaves or the petioles get way to big
> the best i ever had was cycas mitzholitzii
> 
> i really wanted to have the truly epiphitic zamia growing in every tank ,but it rots easily,now i have a very large vivarium, that i might try to grow another one, again ,up in the "dry"areas of this tank , it looks like one would go great in the "big green"you are building
> jeff in arizona


Unlike many cycads, this _Zamia splendens _is a true rainforest plant. Here is the PACSOA page about it... Zamia splendens - Pacsoa I have it potted in a really loose substrate that is mostly perlite and charcoal. It seems to be just fine. For a while I also had a _Z. vasquezii_, a very small cycad, growing in a humid terrarium and it was fine too. 

This enclosure has almost 30" of space between the false bottom and the top. I made it taller so I could plant a few cycads and trees and other larger plants.


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## desertFrogger (Mar 15, 2012)

Where do you prefer to get your plants?


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## Hylomantis (Mar 20, 2014)

Love it. Your terrariums are always so original. Even love the bright green paint.


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## BlueDacnis1 (Jan 17, 2012)

Great looking tank, as usual, I don't know how easy they would be to get but an emu egg would probably be perfect in there, the are about the same color as the ostrich egg and have a thick shell, they are about 4" to 5" across or maybe a rhea egg, maybe online, i got mine from a local emu breeder some years back!

Regards Jerry


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

I really like where this is going. However, I do have one small critique: I would replace that leaf litter with something more primitive for the sake of authenticity. Maybe you can find something like ginko? I could get you some redwood duff if you want, too.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

desertFrogger said:


> Where do you prefer to get your plants?


I get them from all over. The _Zamia_ that I have in this setup was from an ebay auction. I grew the Montezuma cypress seedlings from seed. I trade stuff too.



Hylomantis said:


> Love it. Your terrariums are always so original. Even love the bright green paint.


Thanks so much!



BlueDacnis1 said:


> Great looking tank, as usual, I don't know how easy they would be to get but an emu egg would probably be perfect in there, the are about the same color as the ostrich egg and have a thick shell, they are about 4" to 5" across or maybe a rhea egg, maybe online, i got mine from a local emu breeder some years back!
> 
> Regards Jerry


Like I mentioned above, a nest of emu eggs would be much too large for the scale of this enclosure. I think that a nest with three or five duck eggs will look good. 



epiphytes etc. said:


> I really like where this is going. However, I do have one small critique: I would replace that leaf litter with something more primitive for the sake of authenticity. Maybe you can find something like ginko? I could get you some redwood duff if you want, too.


This leaf litter is authentic. By the middle of the Cretaceous there were many kinds of broad-leaved, angiosperm trees (See the following image: http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v10/n10/images/nrg2600-i1.jpg). Many of them probably had leaves with entire margins and simple, oval shapes like the magnolia leaves that I put on top of a layer of oak leaves here. I also added some bald cypress leaves and you can see them in those photos, but they are too strongly aromatic in there and I have been removing them again. Most kinds of dried conifer foliage will have this problem. It might be interesting to try redwood leaf litter. I do have a couple one-gallon bags of dried gingko leaves that I collected earlier this fall.


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## LittleMy (Nov 11, 2014)

Huh... now you've got me wondering about the color of dinosaur eggs. This was the only article I could find:
dinosaur eggs, general discussion of Chinese dinosaur eggs, exhibits, research


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's something interesting that I just ran into. This link opens a pdf...

Horner. 2000. Dinosaur Reproduction and Parenting. Ann. Rev. Earth Planet. Sci. 28:19-45.


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## ameratsnake (Nov 2, 2014)

Skullsunlimited.com has some really sweet replicas at scaled down to full size. They are extremely realistic. Besides dinos they have crocs including garials and tuataras. They might even have a giant salamander.


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## ameratsnake (Nov 2, 2014)

Skullsunlimited.com also has egg, tooth, and claw replicas. Their replicas are made of a nearly indestructible polyurethane. As far as holding up in a high humidity environment, I'm not sure about the paint but I'm sure that this can be solved with some sort of epoxy coating.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

ameratsnake said:


> Skullsunlimited.com has some really sweet replicas at scaled down to full size. They are extremely realistic. Besides dinos they have crocs including garials and tuataras. They might even have a giant salamander.





ameratsnake said:


> Skullsunlimited.com also has egg, tooth, and claw replicas. Their replicas are made of a nearly indestructible polyurethane. As far as holding up in a high humidity environment, I'm not sure about the paint but I'm sure that this can be solved with some sort of epoxy coating.


I had looked at those before. Those replica skulls all have stone fossil finishes on them. I want a skull that is natural bone to look like an animal that just died out in the forest. I think I will get a good result with a gator skull if I flip it upside down and bury some it with leaves to make it less recognizable.

I am going to try the duck eggs first to see how they turn out.


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## jimmy rustles (Mar 10, 2013)

You could just get a Fish at the market and use its skull After dinner. Ever thought of varanoid eggs (or Even Alligator/iguana/etc)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

jimmy rustles said:


> You could just get a Fish at the market and use its skull After dinner. Ever thought of varanoid eggs (or Even Alligator/iguana/etc)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Or even better, just catch the fish yourself! Fishing is always good fun 

Good call on the retile eggs, that might be pretty awesome. I'm not sure what the best way to "preserve" them would be, though. 

John


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Why would a fish skull be up in the woods under a tree?


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

hydrophyte said:


> Why would a fish skull be up in the woods under a tree?


Eagles and osprey. They drop fish EVERYWHERE.

I have found plenty of fish skeletons while hiking. Usually they are found relatively close to a body of water, but that is not always the case. Basically, stuff likes to eat fish and they can appear in the strangest of places (under a tree is not that strange though).

John


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## jimmy rustles (Mar 10, 2013)

Yeah on one handside that predation thing, there mustve been some fish, clam and egg eating paleo animals , and imo the skulls of some fish genera dont scream fish at first sight, at least to people who dont regularly see them. Thought it might give a more outlandish archaich look to it thats not as cliche as the usual exo Terra alligator skull


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## ameratsnake (Nov 2, 2014)

I had looked at those before. Those replica skulls all have stone fossil finishes on them. I want a skull that is natural bone to look like an animal that just died out in the forest.



Search the site again. The crocodilian and tuatara skulls are natural replicas. You might have to search the site in depth to find them. They have 40 different crocodilian skulls.


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## Hylomantis (Mar 20, 2014)

FroggyKnight said:


> Eagles and osprey. They drop fish EVERYWHERE.
> 
> I have found plenty of fish skeletons while hiking. Usually they are found relatively close to a body of water, but that is not always the case. Basically, stuff likes to eat fish and they can appear in the strangest of places (under a tree is not that strange though).
> 
> John


Plenty of rivers flood their banks for miles during the wet season too. 

If fish bones still aren't working I'm sure there's bird skeletons easily sourced. They're more like dinosaurs too!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

FroggyKnight said:


> Eagles and osprey. They drop fish EVERYWHERE.
> 
> I have found plenty of fish skeletons while hiking. Usually they are found relatively close to a body of water, but that is not always the case. Basically, stuff likes to eat fish and they can appear in the strangest of places (under a tree is not that strange though).
> 
> John





jimmy rustles said:


> Yeah on one handside that predation thing, there mustve been some fish, clam and egg eating paleo animals , and imo the skulls of some fish genera dont scream fish at first sight, at least to people who dont regularly see them. Thought it might give a more outlandish archaich look to it thats not as cliche as the usual exo Terra alligator skull


Yeah I have found fish parts under trees too, but I just don't want to use a fish skull. Some kind of reptile skull will reinforce the idea better. 



ameratsnake said:


> Search the site again. The crocodilian and tuatara skulls are natural replicas. You might have to search the site in depth to find them. They have 40 different crocodilian skulls.


You are right. I had overlooked the crocidilian section because those menu choices on the left side of the main page don't go right there.

To me the African dwarf caiman skull looks very different from the American alligator. I think the size (8" long) is right and the price isn't so bad either. 

The false gavial also looks quite distinctive, but at 20" long it is too large. 



Hylomantis said:


> Plenty of rivers flood their banks for miles during the wet season too.
> 
> If fish bones still aren't working I'm sure there's bird skeletons easily sourced. They're more like dinosaurs too!


I wondered about using an emu skull--these are also easy to find and pretty cheap on ebay--but they are so fine and light. SkullsUnlimited.com also has hornbill replicas.

How about the Komodo dragon skull replica?! This looks very toothy and dramatic, but it is more expensive. There were Squamata around in the Cretaceous, but haven't found a whole lot of information. If I search more in scholarly databases I can find out more. _Mosasaurus_ was a squamate, a gigantic marine lizard! _Obamadon_ was another Cretaceous lizard in the now totally extinct group Polyglyphanodontia.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I have decided that those cedar stumps are taking up too much room. I am going to remove them and use just three more slender stumps that I have. I will also position them more vertically to be more congruous with the live Montezuma cypress seedlings. When they grow up about 2X bigger those cypress will look really cool like little Christmas trees.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

The little _Illicium parviflorum_ tree that I bought via an ebay sale came with the mail today. It looks like it traveled well.

_Illicium_ is in Family Schisandraceae, which belongs in turn to the Austrobaileyales, one of the most basal angiosperm groups.


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## s0082 (Jun 22, 2014)

This looks so cool! I have enjoyed reading the history and thought behind it as well. And I love your false bottom with the potted plants


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

s0082 said:


> This looks so cool! I have enjoyed reading the history and thought behind it as well. And I love your false bottom with the potted plants


Thanks for reading! I hope to have more updates soon. Today I worked on it a little more. I removed those large cedar stumps and positioned three more slender stumps. While moving plants around today I saw new root growth on most of them. I wondered if it would be too chilly in my basement shop, but I have been shining a 100 watt light bulb into the enclosure and this apparently warms it up enough for the plants.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

This is turning out awesome!

I wonder how the new look will look...I must say I really liked the shadows the big trunks cast...gave you that "walking in the undergrowth" feeling.

I think a chicken skeleton would be a doable one...they could be replaced. Maybe stick a mammal tail vertebrae off the back of it trailing through the leaflitter. 

Another potential option would be a snapping turtle shell and skull.


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## Hylomantis (Mar 20, 2014)

hydrophyte said:


> I wondered about using an emu skull--these are also easy to find and pretty cheap on ebay--but they are so fine and light. SkullsUnlimited.com also has hornbill replicas.
> 
> How about the Komodo dragon skull replica?! This looks very toothy and dramatic, but it is more expensive. There were Squamata around in the Cretaceous, but haven't found a whole lot of information. If I search more in scholarly databases I can find out more. _Mosasaurus_ was a squamate, a gigantic marine lizard! _Obamadon_ was another Cretaceous lizard in the now totally extinct group Polyglyphanodontia.


Ebay have some Water Monitor skulls for around $50. They are a bit more elongated compared to Komodo but the look is at least fairly similar.

Edit: Apologies but they seem to be very small, around 3 inches. Shame.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Dendrobait said:


> This is turning out awesome!
> 
> I wonder how the new look will look...I must say I really liked the shadows the big trunks cast...gave you that "walking in the undergrowth" feeling.
> 
> ...


I ended up putting the large triple-trunk stump in there because it looked the best. I'm not going to be able to use these white cedar stumps with livestock because they are too strongly aromatic. I know somebody who is going to cut down a large dead bald cypress and he is supposed to send me some branches and maybe a section of trunk. It's too bad that travisc stopped selling those really cool bald cypress stumps. Does anybody here know anybody else who might be able to (lawfully) cut some bald cypress?



Hylomantis said:


> Ebay have some Water Monitor skulls for around $50. They are a bit more elongated compared to Komodo but the look is at least fairly similar.
> 
> Edit: Apologies but they seem to be very small, around 3 inches. Shame.


That's a good tip. Maybe smaller bones could work out well. I will see when I take this thing apart again and put it back together. My current favorite ideas are still the replica dwarf caiman and Komodo dragon from skullsunlimited.com

I sketched out an idea for a nest. This is about three pints of tree fern fiber with chicken eggs.










The eggs really look like chicken eggs, but I hope I can get a good result dying them a dark bluish-green like emu eggs. Chicken eggs are the right size. I intend to make an epoxy nest by building first with clay, making a latex mold + mother mold and then cast with the Vivarium Works Exhibit Cast. I can press tree fern fiber into the mold so that it will imbed in the epoxy and also sprinkle some loose tree fern fiber on the whole nest with eggs. 

This nest is based on some things I was reading about well-preserved nests of small, bird-like dinosaurs (Troodontidae, and others) that apparently provide evidence of egg incubation by dinosaurs. These fossil nests are shallow depressions holding eggs only half-buried and with the long axes vertically oriented. The tops of the eggs were presumably exposed so that the adult animal could brood them with its belly. The eggs of some other kinds of dinosaurs were apparently not incubated by the parent(s) and were instead buried in warm sand or composting heaps of vegetation.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

This is my best livestock idea yet. I think a _Nephila clavipes_ would look really cool in this setup. I have read here and there that they aren't too hard to keep and they don't need a really huge enclosure. They will build a web to match the space you keep them in. I will have to wait to get one of these spiders. I remember seeing them in Flroida in the springtime. BugsInCyberspace.com lists them, but currently out of stock.









(Wikimedia Commons image: File:Nephila clavipes sky2.JPG - Wikimedia Commons)


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

Yes! I think that's a great idea, both an ancient genus and super cool, perfect.

I used to have a big _N. maculata_ free range in my spider room years ago, they are very gentle and lovable.

I don't know if you have fans in the tank already, but if not it's something to consider. They seem to prefer to make their webs where there is some airflow.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Nephila would be awesome. Yeah unfortunately the wrong time of year to get some. Maybe talk to a FL member and they could find you an eggsac? 

You could probably get away with keeping millipedes and Nephila together. I don't think the millies would crawl up high enough to bother them.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Sammie said:


> Yes! I think that's a great idea, both an ancient genus and super cool, perfect.
> 
> I used to have a big _N. maculata_ free range in my spider room years ago, they are very gentle and lovable.
> 
> I don't know if you have fans in the tank already, but if not it's something to consider. They seem to prefer to make their webs where there is some airflow.


Yes I haven't installed them yet, but I will put a couple of fans in there to blwo the air around. 



Dendrobait said:


> Nephila would be awesome. Yeah unfortunately the wrong time of year to get some. Maybe talk to a FL member and they could find you an eggsac?
> 
> You could probably get away with keeping millipedes and Nephila together. I don't think the millies would crawl up high enough to bother them.


It's going to take me a while before I have this thing ready for livestock. For one thing, I want to get it out of my house. I am working on re-installing it in a public space somewhere. I hope I will be able to source _Nephila_ somewhere this coming spring. An _Argiope_ might be another good choice and I could catch one of those around here.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I hope to get back to work on this thing and get it into presentable shape. The plants all look well enough, although they haven't grown very much because the basement shop is still kind of chilly. 

I think I might try to get a couple of roach colonies started. I was visiting the Roach Crossing site the other day and it is so fascinating to read the species descriptions. It looks like he has added a number of new ones.

My _Gnetum gnemon_ seeds have started to sprout! I was so happy when I noticed the first one. I planted these seeds seven months ago. Apparently when the _Gnetum_ seed falls from the tree the embryo inside is not fully developed and it continues its development sometimes for a year or more before the seed sprouts.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

With your nephila you could get an Argyrodes sp. to go along with it, then watch some interesting web/prey stealing activities


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

TarantulaGuy said:


> With your nephila you could get an Argyrodes sp. to go along with it, then watch some interesting web/prey stealing activities


Yeah that would be pretty neat. I just looked that up.

I should post in the For Trade area to see if anybody here might be able to catch a Nephila for me in trade for plants or something. I remember that they are not hard to find in Florida in the right habitat.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

If I had known, I'd have brought this guy (gal?) back from my trip for you


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Hey that's cool. I should be able to find a _Nephila_ for trade if I ask around. I know a few people in Florida. I still need to work on the setup some more. 

I placed an order for roaches today from Roach Crossing. I ordered everything as starter colonies of 10-15 nymphs. Here are the species included...


_Therea olegrandjeani_
_Pycnoscelus *****_
_Henschoutedenia flexivitta_
_Blaberus parabolicus_
Ectobiidae sp. “Malaysia”

This is going to be fun to get these going. I just need to make sure to set them up right. I really like the idea of starting with nymphs and growing them up.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I just picked up some mason bees at a local garden center. I'm going to try them out in a 20G fish tank to see how they do. I haven't been able to find very much on laboratory culture, but I'll see how it goes. I plan to set them up tonight with bee pollen, diluted honey, some mud and nest tubes. I will also put a heat mat under one side of the tank to give them a temperature gradient. If they won't eat or if they dislike the enclosure I can just let them go out outside.

I think that this is the one that I got...

Blue Orchard Bees


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

These _Osmia_ bees seem to be doing real well so far. They have been taking the honey + water solution in a glass pipette that I put in the tank. I also included a little vase with cut bloodroot and vinca flowers and they went wild for those. 

I hope I can keep them happy. Next I'm going to add a little dish with clay mud and some nesting tubes.


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## jimmy rustles (Mar 10, 2013)

cries for a video of bees flying around in a vivarium


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

jimmy rustles said:


> cries for a video of bees flying around in a vivarium


It will be really cool if it works out, but it will take some more time and observation to find out. The bees are eating well, but they aren't really using the nesting tubes that I provided yet. They haven't touched the little dish of mud. I did see a pair of them copulating this morning. The females are about 3x bigger than the males and they are in better shape. I found one dead male bee already and the remaining males look a little weak.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I have a quick update for the mason bees. They did not work out. As a few more days went by I saw that they stopped eating and just hid all the time. The male bees all perished, but I released the females outside. I might try keeping them again, but I need to find more details on the laboratory culture. It sure would be cool to have a group of bees flying around, building nests and foraging in a large enclosure. 

This is a quick bookmark for me... Earth Archives | Life-size Velociraptor skeleton soon available as 3D print


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I gave the planting in this setup a little overhaul last night. I rearranged the plants, installed some new tree stumps and added new leaf litter.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here is the complete list with all of the plants in there now.


_Blechnum gibbum_ - Mini tree fern (not a true tree fern).
_Dendrolycopodium_ - Terrestrial clubmoss.
_Gnetum gnemon_ - Very unusual broad-leaved gymnosperm tree. This specimen is a small seedling that is growing slowly.
_Illicium parviflorum_ - Evergreen shrub in Austrobaileyales, one of the most evolutionarily basal of Angiosperm plant groups.
_Lanonia dasyantha_ - Dwarf palm to more or less represent or suggest _Sabilites_ or other fossil fan palms.
_Pharus_ sp. - Evolutionarily basal grass.
_Taxodium mucronatum_ - Conifer tree, Family Cupressaceae. There are seven of these sapling trees in there. 
_Zamia splendens_ - Relatively small rainforest cycad from Mexico.
If you look closely you will see _Ginkgo biloba_ fallen leaves in the leaf litter.


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## lunger (Oct 17, 2010)

Long thread so I didn't read it all but I wanted to ask...maybe someone already addressed this. Is the epoxy you used UV resistant? I may be mistaken but I believe that epoxy can break down with exposure to UV light. I'm not sure how long it takes etc. but if you haven't already, you should check the specs of the epoxy you used. I'm sure you already did but just in case you overlooked that point you may want to check with the epoxy manufacturer. It looks awesome and I know how much work that took! Nice job!!


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## homerclease (Jun 21, 2015)

This is a really neat build... I love the diy projects the best!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

homerclease said:


> This is a really neat build... I love the diy projects the best!


Thanks so much! It was fun to make, but man, that epoxy layup and all the sanding takes forever.


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## Myrmicinae (Jun 30, 2014)

Any updates on this tank? Have you found other potentially compatible invertebrates to experiment with?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Myrmicinae said:


> Any updates on this tank? Have you found other potentially compatible invertebrates to experiment with?


The planting is still looking good. The trees have filled out a bit more since those last update shots. 

I have been wondering for months about the best configuration for the clear window panels. The tank is really too tall to be able to reach down inside through the top, so I need to be able to open one side. I want to use polycarbonate. I had wondered about sliding windows, but didn't really like that idea much. I think that instead I will use a thin (.1") polycarbonate for one side and the short end window, with the third panel being thicker (.25") stock. I'll use the CNC router to cut a rectangular door right in the middle and secure with hinges and latches. I think this is the best solution.

I'm pretty sure that I will two or three roaches in combination with one or more other inverts. Millipedes might be a good choice. A _Nephila_ or _Argiope_ orb weaver spider would probably also be OK with large roaches. I'll figure something out. I just need to get the tank closed up first.


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