# Protecting Yourself During a Trade?



## d.crockett (May 27, 2009)

I have been wondering about this for a while, so I figured I would toss it out there and get some opinions. If you want to trade frogs (and it would require you both shipping them) with someone that you don't know in person are there any particular ways to protect yourself and insure that they actually send what they promised? 

Perhaps I should illustrate with a hypothetical situation: You come in contact with an individual who wants something that you have, and you want something they have. You haven't met them in person, maybe just seen them posting here and there on DB, but they aren't necessarily one of the big posters. They may even have a post or two of positive reputation. The biggest issue is that you don't necessarily know them, and would have little recourse if things went south.

I guess what I am asking is, like paying for something with Paypal affords you some protection, is there anything equivalent to that you can organize with a trade? I hope I have articulated my question in a somewhat coherent manner....


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

You could sell each other the item for an agreed upon price through Paypal...one of equal value. Once balancing payments are made, ship away. In the seller note provide a detail of the sale. The power will ultimately be in the hands of each respective consumer at that point. 

I am not aware of any trade brokering website though.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

That's tricky. I think all you have is hope that they are honest and some background from their posts. Maybe get them to ship first. 

If they are a regular contributor on the site, they probably wouldn't want the bad rep associated with not sending you what is owed to you.


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## d.crockett (May 27, 2009)

frogface said:


> That's tricky. I think all you have is hope that they are honest and some background from their posts. Maybe get them to ship first.
> 
> If they are a regular contributor on the site, they probably wouldn't want the bad rep associated with not sending you what is owed to you.


Hmm, I hadn't taken into account the inherent value of dealing with the influence being present on DB carries. I guess I have never really seen a thread pop up with someone having a trade gone south, so maybe I am just being paranoid.


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## d.crockett (May 27, 2009)

Harpo said:


> You could sell each other the item for an agreed upon price through Paypal...one of equal value. Once balancing payments are made, ship away. In the seller note provide a detail of the sale. The power will ultimately be in the hands of each respective consumer at that point.
> 
> I am not aware of any trade brokering website though.


I had thought about that route, but then this comes to mind 

Pigeon drop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

d.crockett said:


> Hmm, I hadn't taken into account the inherent value of dealing with the influence being present on DB carries. I guess I have never really seen a thread pop up with someone having a trade gone south, so maybe I am just being paranoid.


I think a trade would qualify for a 'vender feedback' thread.


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## Gocubs (Apr 23, 2012)

Mail is terrifying when it comes to these things bbecause you never know.

In person is sketchy too, especially when hundreds of dollars are being exchanged. I always ask for as much personal information as possible (including manditory phone communication) and jot down a license plate number beore I exit my vehicle. 

Oh yea, I also have a ccw permit. 

I would suggest reaching out to members that have worked with said individual in the past for reassurance.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

> I would suggest reaching out to members that have worked with said individual in the past for reassurance.


I think this is a good idea. Not so sure about the license plates and the CCW lol. I can see the headlines now "he was trying to run off with my frogs!"


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## Gocubs (Apr 23, 2012)

No no no. Been carrying for years. You can have my frogs and money. I can breed more and make more. But you cant harm me or my family. 

License plates are great. Always registered to a name with an address. And with phone/email logs. That's what i call insurance. 

I've never hhad an issue with anyone on the site. I've actually made several close friends. Sold a group of tarapoto on Sunday to a complete stranger who turned out to be a very nice person.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

A Pigeon Drop wouldn't work if the fiscal trade is balanced. Even if the other person ripped you off, you would be able to make a claim as a buyer because the trade are two separate transactions. Sure, you would be out the items, but you would essentially take both pots. The buyer wins nearly every Paypal dispute as long as there is a physical sale of goods.


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## d.crockett (May 27, 2009)

Gocubs said:


> Oh yea, I also have a ccw permit.


+1 to that


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## d.crockett (May 27, 2009)

Harpo said:


> A Pigeon Drop wouldn't work if the fiscal trade is balanced. Even if the other person ripped you off, you would be able to make a claim as a buyer because the trade are two separate transactions. Sure, you would be out the items, but you would essentially take both pots. The buyer wins nearly every Paypal dispute as long as there is a physical sale of goods.


Got it. Thanks!


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

maybe asking for references 1st would be really good too


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

If I remmeber a thread I read awhile ago, Paypal will not cover the sales of live animals


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

pdfCrazy said:


> If I remmeber a thread I read awhile ago, Paypal will not cover the sales of live animals


Good call. It seems they go based off the Ebay acceptable use policy which prohibits just about every animal outside of small food items.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

PayPal absolutely will NOT cover anything live.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I would just check and make sure the person at least has a placeholder for feedback associated with their profile. That usually means they are at least planning on doing more business and they care about their reputation. If they have a feedback thread, just PM a couple people that have posted in it and see if they can give you a feel for the person. I've had people ask me questions like this before and I was glad to answer them honestly via PM. I think you'll find that most members of the board are like this.

Another thing to consider is the regional forums... If you know where they are from and they have attended meetings in the area, you are bound to have a few people that know them personally. 

soo, to sum it up just dig dig dig and don't be afraid to ask for help. Thats one of the best parts about this forum, people here care and they will help. However, as with anything in life, there is always a chance that you can get burned... The board has seen its fair share of that... but I wouldnt be shocked if other members stepped up and helped make you whole if something were to happen.


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## aurantiaca1 (Dec 13, 2010)

I feel like in this hobby there is a bit more honesty than most. Vendor feedback is important. It seems that anyone that rips off people is quickly weeded out on DB and most of the time publicly bashed, haha.


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

As a rule, I will not ship first on a trade unless I know you or you have been around the hobby with decent feedback. that being said, I have never been ripped off in a trade If I don't know you I simply ask around, If you have been in the hobby for any reasonable time people will answer questions about you one way or the other. If it does not feel right walk away. If the other person is new to the hobby then they will understand, especially if they have checked you out and will have no problem shipping first.

Scott


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## d.crockett (May 27, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> PayPal absolutely will NOT cover anything live.


Wow, did NOT know that. So does that mean that they just won't cover something if it comes to you dead? Would they still cover it if you had paid for something and the other party failed to send it to you?


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

1 If you have more reputation then them, then the most widely accepted way to do things on other forums I frequent is for him to send you stuff first. The person with more feed back and a better reputation calls the shots. 

2 If you neither you or him have any reputation here then you can start by asking what reputation he has that you can verify, does he have ebay with hundreds of good sales / buys? Another major option and something all of you SHOULD be doing is using a service like heatware.com , it is common in the tech world, its basically a universal reputation system for forums. This helps a lot because I am sure many of you here dabble in other forums for various interest and heatware gives you a way to make your reputation somewhat transferable and somewhat permanent (can't tell you how many hobbies I had where I built up 10+ trades only to see that forum go under). 

And if nothing exists then well, you probably both need to do some smaller sales first to start building a reputation.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

d.crockett said:


> Wow, did NOT know that. So does that mean that they just won't cover something if it comes to you dead? Would they still cover it if you had paid for something and the other party failed to send it to you?


There is not nearly the protection that some think there is. Let's say, for example, you purchased a car stereo from me. You send a PayPal payment of $200. I send you a box of rocks, using PayPal's automated shipping service through either USPS or FedEx. I now have proof, via their shipping system, that I sent you product. You turn in a claim, along with photos of an opened box full of rocks. I turn in photos showing me packing your stereo in the same box. My story is that I always take photos because of:
A) all the scams you read about
B) in case it was damaged in shipping, I will proof for the shipping claim, that it was properly packed so I can get a refund for my customer.
In PayPal's eyes, you were trying to scam me. This actually happened to somebody I know. Unfortunately, there are ways to be scammed using PayPal.

As others have mentioned, check for a feedback page, and also ask a few people if they know anything about the person you are considering trading with. Know your seller/trader and all can go smoothly.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> There is not nearly the protection that some think there is. Let's say, for example, you purchased a car stereo from me. You send a PayPal payment of $200. I send you a box of rocks, using PayPal's automated shipping service through either USPS or FedEx. I now have proof, via their shipping system, that I sent you product. You turn in a claim, along with photos of an opened box full of rocks. I turn in photos showing me packing your stereo in the same box. My story is that I always take photos because of:
> A) all the scams you read about
> B) in case it was damaged in shipping, I will proof for the shipping claim, that it was properly packed so I can get a refund for my customer.
> In PayPal's eyes, you were trying to scam me. This actually happened to somebody I know. Unfortunately, there are ways to be scammed using PayPal.
> ...


I think it also depends on the transaction arena. I know via Ebay for example, the buyer will win almost every dispute... the seller is very vulnerable to scam. I sell a lot of stuff through Ebay and have been scammed a couple times. Even if you don't accept returns, Ebay will side with the buyer if they open a "Product Not As Described" case against you. Paypal has very similar rules.....it's all in how you open the case as a buyer.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

I think the best way to do a trade is as the more experienced board member have described.....either trade in person or only deal with very reputable folks via the forum.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This is the bottom line. There really is nothing else to say about it.

If you do not know who you are dealing with, learn. If you cannot learn anything about the person you are dealing with - you may not want to do that deal.

s


Pumilo said:


> ... As others have mentioned, check for a feedback page, and also ask a few people if they know anything about the person you are considering trading with. Know your seller/trader and all can go smoothly.


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

I have traded with a board member or two. I was sketched out at first and asked the same questions. The guy I was trading with had done it a bunch and basically told me its all in the trust. He said If it's through DB then you can get to know the person through threads and after that its just trust in our small hobby. He shipped first to make me feel more comfortable and all worked out great. That was my first experience trading. Since then I have made sure I talk to the person at least via text. Then it's just trust. So far I have had no bad outcomes but I think its important to be wary and use the board as a source. I would not trade with someone on here with under a few hundred posts without some monetary exchange or other information or I knew them. Its a grey area that you just have to tread carefully in and use common sense.


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## d.crockett (May 27, 2009)

eyeviper said:


> I have traded with a board member or two. I was sketched out at first and asked the same questions. The guy I was trading with had done it a bunch and basically told me its all in the trust. He said If it's through DB then you can get to know the person through threads and after that its just trust in our small hobby. He shipped first to make me feel more comfortable and all worked out great. That was my first experience trading. Since then I have made sure I talk to the person at least via text. Then it's just trust. So far I have had no bad outcomes but I think its important to be wary and use the board as a source. I would not trade with someone on here with under a few hundred posts without some monetary exchange or other information or I knew them. Its a grey area that you just have to tread carefully in and use common sense.


I think you make a really good point about texting. I hadn't really thought about it before but for some reason I feel a lot better about the people that I deal with with the say, "Hey, here is my phone number, give me a shout whenever you want."


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

In the vendor feedback section if it wasn't out of place there, how about posting a declaration of trade as soon as the deal is laid out and before anything is shipped. Publicly stating your end of the deal.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

RobR said:


> In the vendor feedback section if it wasn't out of place there, how about posting a declaration of trade as soon as the deal is laid out and before anything is shipped. Publicly stating your end of the deal.


I think that would be a bit excessive... just a lot of unneeded new threads for the amount of trades that go on here. 

What I think would be more appropriate would be to just make sure to keep track of the PMs and any emails you exchange. If something goes wrong, THEN you start a thread explaining the situation and making those PMs and emails public.


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

carola1155 said:


> I think that would be a bit excessive... just a lot of unneeded new threads for the amount of trades that go on here.
> 
> What I think would be more appropriate would be to just make sure to keep track of the PMs and any emails you exchange. If something goes wrong, THEN you start a thread explaining the situation and making those PMs and emails public.


I think this would not only be against the user agreement but is also fishy legal waters. 

This was discussed in a Yara pumilio thread and we got some good advice: I hope this link works...

As mentioned in the above thread-ask around the people here don't want others getting taken advantage of and are more than willing to answer questions about specific people if you don't personally know them.

Edit: this post was about posting a blacklist of froggers, but is still relevant in this context


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Admittedly, It's been a while since I've looked at the user agreement... But I can't see how that is any different than the feedback section.

That section usually contains information about how the deal was communicated and the results of it. If it is all factual information and direct statements I wouldn't imagine it being able to be considered slander. Ill have to skim through that other thread again (it got to a point where I got sick of it when it was all happening)


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

This thread made me laugh. If you are worried about a trade with some one you don't know, ask for references. Or don't make the trade. Most people who are good at this, will stand by their trade. Ask around if they have no feedback, it might be a bad idea. If you need a gun at a frog trade, find another hobby. This is a hobby, and as for hundreds of dollars that always goes both ways. You both have a lot invested. I personally only do trades with people i know or have great references. Never had a problem yet. I am nervous whenever I do make a trade. I want the person on the recieving end to be happy and vice versa. But one thing is for certain if you are breeding your own, you can make more, so all trades can go smootly in the long run.

If this still doesn't work save your money and buy them out right, from someone who you can trust. There are many on this board who fit that category.

And also note, if they talk stupid on the board, chances are he or she is a goof, and should be avoided. You can tell by a persons post, how experienced they are, or not. So read, and check posts. People who practice bad husbandry, chances are you will have issues with there animals, so that trade could end badly.

Even with mutual trust, its a crap shoot, FedEx can kill the whole deal, or weather. In addition if they insist on shipping US mail, in my opinion is a disaster waiting to happen.

Good Luck,
Daryl


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

The only time I traded through shipping, I was super nervous. I sent 20 froglets off in trade for a proven pair, and to top it off, the shipment was delayed by a full day. In the end it worked out fine, but we were both sweating it for a full 24 hours, right dartsanddragons?


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