# Saving money in the Dart Frog hobby



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Wrote this up really quick. Please add any ways you save.

1. Build your collection slowly. Many of us (including me) bought frogs because I didn’t have that species and they were available. Then many people end up with frogs they don’t love, too many frogs, and end up burning out, and getting out of the hobby.
2. Buy local and avoid shipping costs. You also get inspiration from seeing other people’s tanks.
3. Reuse FF cups 
4. Reuse FF cup lids 
5. Media costs. Research prices from all different sources, taking into consideration shipping costs. Research making your own media. Must also consider production of different media.
6. List of ongoing expenses: media, excelsior, leaf litter, supplements
7. Get your FF culturing down. Avoid having to buy more. Find the right temperature, media, schedule that works for you.
8. Split plants before you put them into tanks. It’s tempting to put the whole plant in just to get the tank done, but if you can split or take cuttings from the plants and then propagate them, you will save money in the long run.
9. Learn how to propagate plants.
10. Find local froggers to trade cuttings.
11. Pick tanks carefully avoid buying top opening tanks only to realize later that you like front opening tanks and having to replace the tanks and the furnishings.
12. Actually use QT procedures to hopefully avoid a major problem with all your frogs/tanks.
13. Places not to skimp - supplements
14. You could adopt a minimalist mentality. Do you really need to buy all those gadgets?
15. View your frogs vs. spending time looking for the next frog.
16. Buy tadpoles if you can handle them not being of breeding age for a long while.
17.Find someone who is giving away tanks or selling them cheaply.


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

My advice for not spending frivolously and then regretting purchases is to set personal goals for your collection.

Snatching something up just because it is availible or perceived as rare/valuable may be a decision you later regret.

You can also spend a ton of money on setting up and planting a viv with fancy hardscapes and expensive plants. That is a good decision if you value the aesthetic of the vivarium. Or You can setup more simple vivs that provide all the comfort and space your frogs need but with simple hard scales and inexpensive plants. This would be a good decision if you have a tight budget or want to spend your money on frogs rather than plants. 

Another cost savings would come from how you acquire bugs. If you buy several variety of fruit fly, isopod, springtails etc... And pay shipping, you can easily spend $200. Or you can get to know local froggers and trade for these things. (The same was mentioned about plants).

This hobby really is as expensive as you make it. My top, overarching advice is, be patient and get involved locally. You'll end up saving a lot of money that way.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Group buy frogs with locals and split shipping costs.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

The biggest one I can stress is #1.

I got back into the hobby after taking almost a year off & had the pokemon mentality.
Anything I saw that was cheap & I didnt have; I bought. I went from 2 or 3 tanks to about 13 or 14 in about a month or two.

Then everything started breeding at once & between them, work, family; I couldn't keep up.

So finally I decided to cut my collection down to just the frogs I really want that are on my wish list. I loved all the frogs I had but I didnt HAVE to have them. The frogs im keeping now I do have to have ... if you get what im saying.

My plan now, once I fill the 4 empty tanks i have, is to take a break from buying any frogs for atleast a year. Then when I do, im going to build one new tank at a time and grow my collection the right way.

I wouldve saved myself alot of money had I done this to begin with. 

I also like the "staying local" advice.


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

Don't but what you cant afford. Real simple. This ia not a contest. Some people have the ability and resources that others do not. But either way its a hobby, don't get in over your head. Stick to working with what you like , not whats popular today.

Daryl

And yes don't go cheap you WILL get screwed. If its too cheap there will be issues at some point. And if you wonder why some guys charge more , healthy animals come at a premium.


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## cowboy232350 (Mar 14, 2011)

Having a local frogger friend is huge! I haven't paid for things from mine ever since I got up and running. We just give the other what they need and when it is time to repay the favor we do. Saves money on plants, supplies, and bugs!


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

daryl34 said:


> And yes don't go cheap you WILL get screwed. If its too cheap there will be issues at some point. And if you wonder why some guys charge more , healthy animals come at a premium.


All due respect Daryl, 
but I somewhat disagree with your statement.
Youre directly correlating price with health.

Yea sometimes you do get what you pay for.
But what youre alluding to is that anything "cheap" will automatically be of poor health and that just isnt the case.

Ive paid low prices on frogs that were of great quality & health ... ive also paid higher prices and ended up with undersized & sick frogs.

Im sorry if ive offended you but your statement is misleading to an extent. Healthy frogs dont ALWAYS come at a premium ... and "sick" frogs arent always the ones that are the "cheapest".

To newer members:
Vendor Feedback is there for a reason. Use it.
Price is not always a guarantee of the quality of the frogs youre purchasing ... and that goes both ways.


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

You can disagree thats fine. But I am basing that on dozens of PMs from people , who ask me questions all the time. I am a vendor at large events such as NARBC. The number one thing I hare is " well I bought this from such and such, and they were dead in 2 months."
I hear that 20 times a show minimum. Or the guy who says it only cost me "blank" but 60 in medication and I lost the rest. 

Of course there are deals out there on good animals, but triple the amount on bad ones. Not everyone on here buys from vendors here, people are driven by price and convienence, local swaps, can provide some cheaper alternatives, but the ones I have attended are a step above a garage sale. Not all but some. I am biased breeding many types of animals for 30 plus years. My frog room I think is nice. Always could be better.
But the bottom line is be careful and smart, think of it this way the best deal on frogs can be ruined as simply by shipping incorrectly or with a bad carrier. Great frogs now ill from bad temps or worse.

Daryl


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

By the way here are the species I am working with:

Blue jeans
Golfito Grannies
baru grannies
black jeans
Gold Dust bastis
red bastis 
orange bastis
salt creek bastis
escudos
veraderos
green lamasi
orange/red lamasi
rio teribles
luecs standards / banded
el cope auratus 
portabello auratus
yellow truncatus
yellow galacs
matechos 
inferalanis
oyopoks
bachuis
azureus
tri colors
vanzolinni
cobalts

So I might not post alot but I have a good knowledge of prices and health of animals.
And yes some deals are better than others.
And all methods to save money are always appreciated.
Just posted to show I am not a guy with a couple tanks. I enjoy my hobby but take it seriously about quality animals. And how to maintain a collection without breaking the bank.

Have a Nice Day
Daryl


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

daryl34 said:


> You can disagree thats fine. But I am basing that on dozens of PMs from people , who ask me questions all the time. I am a vendor at large events such as NARBC. The number one thing I hare is " well I bought this from such and such, and they were dead in 2 months."
> I hear that 20 times a show minimum. Or the guy who says it only cost me "blank" but 60 in medication and I lost the rest.
> 
> Of course there are deals out there on good animals, but triple the amount on bad ones. Not everyone on here buys from vendors here, people are driven by price and convienence, local swaps, can provide some cheaper alternatives, but the ones I have attended are a step above a garage sale. Not all but some. I am biased breeding many types of animals for 30 plus years. My frog room I think is nice. Always could be better.
> But the bottom line is be careful and smart, think of it this way the best deal on frogs can be ruined as simply by shipping incorrectly or with a bad carrier. Great frogs now ill from bad temps or worse. Daryl


I get what youre saying & completely understand where you're coming from. 
I also agree with alot of what you're saying. I just wanted to point out that Price isnt always an indicator of health ... good or bad. Thats all.

Trust me, I do get angry when I see frogs for sale cheaper than what I sell mine for. Especially when I know mine are of high quality & well taken care of ... BUT thats just the nature of a free market economy. 

Look at it this way:
All of those people who got screwed, that you helped out just became your permanent customers. So unfortunately those people need to exist or how else would anyone know who the good & bad breeders were.

Nick


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## WinifredBarkle (Dec 9, 2012)

So this is a slight deviation, but has anyone had any luck getting FF culture cups and lids from a local grocery store? Or is it usually cheaper to get them from a supplier?

I was also thinking about asking my local Chinese restaurant, since they tend to have slightly nicer, more sturdy containers (for soup).

Also, what are the best places, besides local shows, to get the FF grow medium and is the Excelsior really necessary? Isopods and springtails are easy enough, but I'm worried about my first time with FF.

I haven't been able to find anyone in Cincinnati yet, but I'm still looking! It makes me really want to move back to Columbus though- there seem to be a ton of dart froggers there!


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

Gordon food service check them out


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

great thread. also buy what you really need the 1st time. i bought 1 outlet timer and i had needed more. then i went out and bought another outlet timer and i realized i should have just bought the big one lol. my point is to try and think smart and dont just buy the 1st thing you think you need.


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## WinifredBarkle (Dec 9, 2012)

daryl34 said:


> Gordon food service check them out


OH man. I didn't even think about a supply store like that. And there's one 10 min from home. Thanks!


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

We can disagree on price all day long, But think of it this way , when people sell things cheap , they do it to move them. Most not all, put little or no effert into getting them to tip top shape, for less money, only maintain the animal. Thats the difference. I could name people on this board who have lost thousands of dollars on that premise alone. Im not saying that is the case every time as an absolute, but way more than 50%. This premise goes for all types of animals not just frogs. 

You can always find the diamond in the rough, the guy who breeds a couple things and enjoys them and sells them cheap. Great god bless, but thats not the norm.


Daryl

Im sure we could go on kingsnake right now find a guy selling cheap, but after seeing the animal, you might say I will pass. 

But either way everyone has a opinion, and thats a good thing.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

daryl34 said:


> rio teribles
> 
> tri colors
> 
> Daryl


One, what are Rio teribles? And 2 sorry to nit pick but they are tricolors  It's a huge pet peeve of mine because I always see the people in pet stores label them "tri-colors" when it's supposed to be a scientific name. They are always anthonyi too...


Another thing that should be added to the list is plants. Unless you're also into plants for a hobby, don't spend $14 per bromeliad. Go to home depot and get cheap plants, the frogs really don't care.


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## WinifredBarkle (Dec 9, 2012)

thedude said:


> Another thing that should be added to the list is plants. Unless you're also into plants for a hobby, don't spend $14 per bromeliad. Go to home depot and get cheap plants, the frogs really don't care.


I just got several broms, with pups and florescense stalks for a buck each on the clearance rack at Lowes. I was pleased.

I will admit I bought some off of TropicalPlantz too, since I do enjoy gardening in its own right


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

The only places I really try and save are re-using ff cups and getting a few rounds out of lids. Other than that if you know someone local its nice to get tads for the experience and the savings. Besides that I try and support the sponsors as much as I can. My two biggest tanks were also given to me by friends and family looking to free up some garage space, that definitely helps.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

daryl34 said:


> We can disagree on price all day long, But think of it this way , when people sell things cheap , they do it to move them. Most not all, put little or no effert into getting them to tip top shape, for less money, only maintain the animal.


I've given more than my fair share of things to people or sold them inexpensively not to move them but to get them to people that want them.... (but I also don't tend to to do this with people I don't know, if I know you then they are likely to get things for free).... so there are those of us for whom the money isn't as important... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> I've given more than my fair share of things to people or sold them inexpensively not to move them but to get them to people that want them.... (but I also don't tend to to do this with people I don't know, if I know you then they are likely to get things for free).... so there are those of us for whom the money isn't as important...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I do a little of both. I do sell things & sometimes I sell them "cheap" to help somebody out; it doesnt mean ive taken care of my frogs any less favorably.
I have also given things away to people that im good friends with.
I have also sold things to get top dollar for. 

It all depends on the situation & what my relationship is with the person im dealing with.

Granted, yes, id like to recoup some of my expenses ... but im not trying to make this into something that I depend on the income to take care of my family either.
God forbid if I lost my job, then my stance might change.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Educate yourself. It costs virtually nothing to learn many things that can save you big bucks. Google, Dendroboard, local meetups, etc. 

Take Dendroboard for example. It is a free forum where people share what works and what doesn't - the plethora of priceless information is actually FREE! 

Reading DB you can learn where to get the best and cheapest supplies, feeders, etc. You can learn how to DIY in order to save $$$. You can learn the proper husbandry of PDFs and avoid killing your expensive animals. You can find locals to get plants, supplies, and frogs from (you can even get ideas by visiting their frog room). You can even contact members privately to ask specific questions (I call them my "mentors," and I have one for each specific topic ).

“Prefer knowledge to wealth, for the one is transitory, the other perpetual” ― Socrates


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

Recently I acquired some 'extra' plants from my local university's greenhouse. They're nothing too fancy, just basic broms and other air plants, but they're in good health and they were free!


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## ilovejaden (Jan 6, 2011)

daryl34 said:


> By the way here are the species I am working with:
> 
> Blue jeans
> Golfito Grannies
> ...


Ill take 5 of everything Daryl


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

thedude said:


> Another thing that should be added to the list is plants. Unless you're also into plants for a hobby, don't spend $14 per bromeliad. Go to home depot and get cheap plants, the frogs really don't care.


I just got 2 full grown, healthy bromeliads with several pups each that hold lots of water at Lowe's. They were clearing out the ones who lost their flowers to make space for the hundreds of poinsettias coming in for Christmas, so I got them for $3 each. They should make the pumilio happy!

Another way to save money: Don't impulse buy!
It's so tempting to get much more than you planned at frog shows, etc., but a lot of times this costs you. If you really want a certain frog, you should research them, understand how to build them a tank and care for them, and plan to have a QT set up to observe them for awhile. Buying frogs without planning means you also have to buy more unexpected things, like a new tank. In addition, the frogs don't usually benefit from impulse buys because frequently the people don't know how to properly keep them, or they were never truly that interested in that species and get rid of them after the initial excitement wears off.
Bryan


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## jjm71586 (Feb 21, 2013)

Hey im just getting back into the hobby in cincinnati east side. For years I have done saltwater and back in the day I did diy (not so good) terrariums with toads, newts, and tree frogs. Now I want to get into Darts but have little money to spend. Is there anyone in cincinnati that sells cheap tads or will trade tads for corals


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Welcome back to the hobby. Unfortunately, this is not the right place for your post as this is not the "Wanted" section of the forum. 

Back on topic, everyone.


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## senditdonkey (Jan 19, 2013)

I use timers for lighting and a mist king system. I have 2 tank temperature gauges spread through out the room and one room gauge. Gave up on humidity gauges awhile ago as they never seem to work anyway. All the other gadgets ( thermostats, differing levels of automation) costing well beyond a $1000 are stuffed in a closet. Just skip that stuff in my opinion costs $ and its just more stuff to break and maintain.

Culturing springs, flies and isopods costs next to nothing on a per week basis after you get the initial set up, but buying them often adds up quick.


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## hamsterdave (Feb 25, 2013)

I'm new to the hobby, and I've found a few ways to save some money already.

I got my tank at the $1/gallon sale that Pet Plus has each year. I've been told that Petco does a similar sale, and they're a national chain. It's limited to the standard plate glass tanks, but it's hard to beat a 55 gallon tank for $55 brand new, and that is what I was planning to go with from the beginning.

Local greenhouses for plants. You won't always find the most exotic plants, but you'll sometimes find real gems. Miniature orchids for $4, big healthy bromeliads for $2, ground cover for similar costs. This is a great time of year for it too, as everybody is loading up for the upcoming season.

There is a local hydroponics supply store that has some fantastic deals. Submersible pumps for 30-50% cheaper than nearly identical models from Petsmart, air pumps that are similarly cheap, hydroton for almost 70% cheaper than pets stores, a 42 event 7 day digital timer for $10, testing kits, soil, light fixtures, etc.

Hobby and craft stores. Hobby Lobby sells Excelsior, same brand as Josh's frogs, and $0.25 per bag cheaper, with no shipping.

Craigslist, thrift stores, and garage sales! With patience, you can find some ridiculous deals on tanks and other hardware. I got my light fixture, fogger (repurposed humidifier), and tank lids on Craigslist for a fraction of what they cost retail.


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## Followgravity (Dec 31, 2012)

hamsterdave said:


> Craigslist, thrift stores, and garage sales! With patience, you can find some ridiculous deals on tanks and other hardware. I got my light fixture, fogger (repurposed humidifier), and tank lids on Craigslist for a fraction of what they cost retail.


Got to second this I just got $100+ worth of lights and random reptile stuff plus 4 tanks off of Craigslist for $50 just stash a little cash aside and sooner or later everything shows up on there


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Gamble said:


> Then everything started breeding at once & between them, work, family; I couldn't keep up.


Hi Nick,

I would like to touch on this. Just because the frogs are breeding doesn't mean that we HAVE to pull the eggs. That's where all the work begins and where many burnout...

Tanks raising the froglets is always an option. Broms, film cans for some species and a water source for the others. I haven't pulled an egg in months, yet have a dozen froglets running around my vivs, maybe more. Lots of tads swimming around. 

I honestly have no idea why people feel the NEED to pull every egg, raise every tad. They can do it on their own and don't need our help at all. It's very rewarding to watch it all happen too! My favorite part of the hobby!

It also fits into the cheaper category. Def less work.

Cheers,


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

Ed said:


> I've given more than my fair share of things to people or sold them inexpensively not to move them but to get them to people that want them.... (but I also don't tend to to do this with people I don't know, if I know you then they are likely to get things for free).... so there are those of us for whom the money isn't as important...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


And THAT is how this great hobby started!! Thanks Ed.. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking anyone from selling their frogs to support their addiction and who will remain in the hobby, but to keep clear of the people who can't even pronounce or spell the specie they are offering (like the blue-legged poison tree frog aka blue Jean pumilio)... 
Peter Keane

To add to the issue at hand, you can use glass Mason jars for you ff cultures. The initial expense is a bit steep at like $1+ per jar, they will pay for themselves after 4-5 uses. Also, I suggest you get the wide-mouth jars. These also help with the environment as well by keeping the plastic container ff culture out of your local dumps. One drawback with using Mason jars is getting them clean again for a future use. My wife will not alw me to run them through the dishwasher (I just tease her, lol), but one piece of advice, don't use a power washer to remove the cysts stuck to the glass. I lost quite a few before I lifted them out other holding bins and they had no bottoms, lol


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

You can also find a recipe to make your own culture medium, but until you get that right combination of ingredients that produce the most flies, you may need to continue buying media from a supplier. Making two separate sets of cultures to assure you have enough to feed your frogs. 
Peter Keane 
JungleWorld


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Peter Keane said:


> To add to the issue at hand, you can use glass Mason jars for you ff cultures. The initial expense is a bit steep at like $1+ per jar, they will pay for themselves after 4-5 uses. Also, I suggest you get the wide-mouth jars. These also help with the environment as well by keeping the plastic container ff culture out of your local dumps. One drawback with using Mason jars is getting them clean again for a future use. My wife will not alw me to run them through the dishwasher (I just tease her, lol)


I use wide mouthed quart Mason jars and love them. Just clean the jar and replace the coffee filter lid. You can even compost the old filters. I've got some jars that have been with me since I started with frogs in the 90's.

My wife actually cleans our culture jars with a bottle brush and scotchbrite pad. I'm pretty lucky.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

1 do your homework/research,then do some more then buy some frogs
2 learn to cut glass,then build your own vivs,a massive saving,plus you can genuinely say I did that
3 Don 't buy wood ask tree surgeons /arbouretums etc.Ok oak possibly won't last as long as some other woods,but being local tis free and eco freindly
4 buy a plant learn how to grow it and multiply it(do this in the research stage),these can be sold/swapped given away,almost all froggers I know repay a kindness. Plus once your sure that first tank is working and you want more,you won't have to spend more money,and you'll know where best in a viv a plant will grow intuitively. 
5 use old sweet jars for cultures, free and reuse them
6Start culturing way before you have frogs,first up you learn how to do it well,with no pressure. Again if it goes well one can either sell excess or just help someone out because they are struggling. I did this the only thing I got wrong was quantity of flies apparently i sent him enough flies to feed all the frogs in europe,looking back i probably did how could I know. Oh start the isos first,because they are slower to build numbers.
6 make your own racks and anchor them properly to a wall,there is nothing more expensive or soul destroying than a rack full of vivs falling over.Thankfully I haven't seen that one
7did you do enough research?
8Hand misting is an option for some(not all with busy lives,but it is very cheep)
9 Start very very slowly with so called beginners(I hate the term) frogs,my /our leucs still give us much joy as the day we brought them home
10 Buy good stock go and see the set up of the vendor if at all possible ,and qt them if possible. if something goes wrong you haven't got to tare down a viv.This one is tricky here,only recently have fecals been available in the uk,but even so 3 months observation,before viv is no bad thing.I'll add that for some reason we struggle to qt tincs ( but off topic).
11 In that research stage see if you can find some local experienced froggers and ask politely if you can see their collection. almost without exception they'll welcome you,tis their passion. Just be aware that you'll come away with your head spinning. 
Finally research again,we are custodians of little animals looking after them well is a duty,the more one knows before keeping,the less costly mistakes one makes,

regards

Stu


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Chris Miller said:


> I use wide mouthed quart Mason jars and love them. Just clean the jar and replace the coffee filter lid. You can even compost the old filters. I've got some jars that have been with me since I started with frogs in the 90's.
> 
> My wife actually cleans our culture jars with a bottle brush and scotchbrite pad. I'm pretty lucky.


Your wife is welcome to come over here for a visit!


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

I have only been in this hobby for 4 years, but in that time I have only thrown away a couple plastic fruit fly cups (got a little too aggressive trying to knock out old/dry media and broke the bottoms) and haven't had to toss any lids yet.
I wash the cups with Dawn soap in hot water with a Scotch pad and dry them. I wipe the tops with the pad and put them in the freezer. I have only had a mold outbreak once and have never had a mite problem even though I usually keep my cultures for 6-8 weeks.
I am about ready to throw out a couple lids because I don't have any more room on them to write the culture date, but not because they have worn out.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

phender said:


> I have only been in this hobby for 4 years, but in that time I have only thrown away a couple plastic fruit fly cups (got a little too aggressive trying to knock out old/dry media and broke the bottoms) and haven't had to toss any lids yet.
> I wash the cups with Dawn soap in hot water with a Scotch pad and dry them. I wipe the tops with the pad and put them in the freezer. I have only had a mold outbreak once and have never had a mite problem even though I usually keep my cultures for 6-8 weeks.
> I am about ready to throw out a couple lids because I don't have any more room on them to write the culture date, but not because they have worn out.


Phil, I have plastic cups and lids over 2 years old. I do the same thing, but I bleach the tops. You can date them with a piece of masking tape.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Phil, I have plastic cups and lids over 2 years old. I do the same thing, but I bleach the tops. You can date them with a piece of masking tape.


Or wet wipe markers. Just make sure you have dry hands when handling the cups.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Your wife is welcome to come over here for a visit!


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Wow you are pretty lucky!I just cleaned 200 cups last night


My wife actually cleans our culture jars with a bottle brush and scotchbrite pad. I'm pretty lucky.[/QUOTE]

I use painters tape on the side of the cup and just easily remove it when it's time to clean.




phender said:


> I have only been in this hobby for 4 years, but in that time I have only thrown away a couple plastic fruit fly cups (got a little too aggressive trying to knock out old/dry media and broke the bottoms) and haven't had to toss any lids yet.
> I wash the cups with Dawn soap in hot water with a Scotch pad and dry them. I wipe the tops with the pad and put them in the freezer. I have only had a mold outbreak once and have never had a mite problem even though I usually keep my cultures for 6-8 weeks.
> I am about ready to throw out a couple lids because I don't have any more room on them to write the culture date, but not because they have worn out.


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## leeslikkers (Mar 31, 2013)

I just wanted to take a minute and thank those who posted all these tips and information. I'm new to DB and new to the hobby. I don't have any PDF's yet as I am in the gathering info and researching stage but that time will come. I'd love to meet some local Hobbiest's here in SW lower MI and hopefully that will happen with time as well.

Thanks again, this is a great site!

Lee


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