# poorly azureus



## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

hi guys long time no post,
unfortunately one of my male azureus has this going on









It looks like his throat pouch is swollen all the time since yesterday.
Is this normal after extended periods of calling ? (little guy is screaming for the girls)
He also has spent most of the day sitting in water but he's moving and eating ok.

I don't like the way it looks and am worried it may be an infection
has anybody your side of the pond seen it before?

Benji


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

I am going to say we are going to need a better picture. 

While my intermedius and azureiventris are calling and in between calls, I can always see the slightly flabby or enlarged vocal sac. It usually goes away within...? 5 minutes?


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

ok ill try for a better picture.
he hasn't been calling at all today but his chin is just bloated and flopping around under his chin
edit for pictures (sorry im no master at macro yet)


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

Hey mate!

Are those red/purple marks on his throat some sort of abrasion or wound?

I'm no expert but if so could these be causing the swelling?

If these are surface wounds a diluted solution of F10 (1:500) could be applied to the area via misting or cotton bud in a bid to keep bacteria at bay.

Hopefully the more experienced can chime in soon.

Goodluck,
Richie


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

it looks to me to be infected they aren't open wounds, they are more like a rash. In the first picture you can see the veins in his sides etc which has been noted can be a sign of abscess or infection, taking him to see a vet in the morning and have also emailed dartfrog about their new antibac product ill update with a result


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

I visited the vet this morning and she agreed with me that baytril topically applied would be the best course of action until we know otherwise and she is also in contact with a zoo vet that is local to find more out about it.
Im picking up the solution later as she is making it all up for me with the correct dosage based on the weight of the animal lol only 5grams!!

I'll keep people updated with progress but if anyone has any other suggestions then Im all ears +)

regards
Benji


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

Good job on taking the initiative to take him to the vet. Keep us updated on how he is doing.


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## RentaPig311 (Jul 6, 2009)

That's awesome that you have a vet that knows anything about them. The closest "exotic" vet I have is an hour away and I'm not sure he knows anything bout pdf's.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In some other taxa, I've seen infections of the vocal sack where the sack becomes distended and filled with a clearish jelly like mass, but that was only seen in very old males. Treatment of those frogs by the vets didn't resolve the problem so hopefully you have better luck. 


Ed


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

ok the treatment has been changed and I have to wait till tomoro to get it but it will be a solution that I can bath it in. Apparently the opinion between the vet and another colleague from another practise was that the alcohol in baytril would be an irritant so they have changed to the bath method. i cant remember what is in it but will update


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

another update but whatever it was seems to have ruptured he's in Q and we are hoping he can hold on till we can start treating him.


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

Poor guy! You are doing a good job by the sounds of it though.


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

Well he's still with us and is not reacting badly to being in Q. I am currently treating him with Tiacil, an opthalmic solution for dog cats and rabbits at a rate of 0.25ml to 1ltr of cooled boiled tap water. I have to bathe him in it for 1 hour everyday for 7 days. The swelling did seem to burst and become ulcer like ( before any meds were administered) but hasn't caused him any more discomfort. I am yet to see him have any interest in food.

Ill keep you posted

Benji


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

Well day 3 of putting him in the bath has seen the wound shrink quiet considerably. He wasn't in for long as he reacted badly to the move from the Q tank to the tub we are using to bathe him. This in itself is good news however as he is no longer acting all lethargic like he has been. I still have not witnessed the frog attempting to feed, but then I have not been glued to the Q tank.

Ill keep you posted

Benji


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

Wow, that infection looked like it was pretty far along. I'm glad to hear that he's doing better. Do you have any updated photos to show his current condition? Best of luck in all of this!


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

I'll try and get a photo of the current state later but as I'm trying to keep from disturbing and stressing him too much ill see what I can do. I'm also going to try feeding him some FF larvae to see if I can witness him eating.

Benji


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks for the updates.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When I have to pull anurans for daily treatments, I expect them to go off feed. It isn't that much of an issue given that most of the frogs in the hobby are obese to begin with.. I wouldn't be concerned until the frog has lost more than a gram in weight (excluding mass lost from the draining of the wound). 

Ed


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

any updates on how the little guy is doing? hope he's better!!


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

Well he's still in Q we have a couple more days of treatment to go and the wound is now a white mark but sooo much smaller on his throat. I still haven't seen him eat but he doesn't appear to have lost weight (my damn scales are bust so have to go get some more). In general I think its just being in Q and being shipped around from Q to a tub with treatment etc.
Its looking like he'll get through this,one thing though ... how long should I keep him in Q after the mark has gone or will he be ok to go back in with our other frogs?

Benji


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

ok so he was getting better but now his left eye has gone greyish and he's barely moving, any ideas on what i can try next to help him out?

Regards 
Ben


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It could mean that there is still an infection going on with the frog. You should contact a vet and consider using injectable antibiotics. 

Ed


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

Hi Ed I've seen the vet and she thinks its a systemic reaction due to malnutrition although we have taken swabs to be analysed. The problem being if its internal fungus or bacterial infection will the swabs tell us what we need?. a faecal is also possible. The vet has given me a care formula that we can bathe him in or give orally if need be to try and boost his appetite etc. If we keep hitting brick walls with this I will have him euthanized as I do not want him to suffer any more than necessary.

living in hope
Benji


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Have you considered using an oral food for him?? The predigested liquid cat diets (like feline clinicare) are a staple when dealing with frogs that are malnourished in Zoos... It is balanced for the frogs and easy to administer if you have someone show you. 
The swabs should show but if it has been an ongoing issue for awhile, you could have multiple organisms involved in the problem. 

Ed


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

No I hadn't thought of that to tell you the truth... bloody good idea though. I'll mention it to the vet tomorrow and see what she thinks or more to the point if we can get something like that. The frog doesn't seem to have have lost weight visibly but we are going to weigh him as my scales are knackered. I really hope we can pull him out of this... thanks for all your help in the matter hopefully next time I post it can be something a bit more cheerful.

Ben


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

see I jinxed it by saying hopefully i can post good news, well bad news this time.... the poorly azureus died last night, I don't think think we had a chance in making him get better as he seemed fine and then went downhill so fast the treatment would have taken too long to have any effect on him poor guy =(

Thanks for all your help and kind words
Ben


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## Zoomie (Jul 3, 2011)

Ben, really sorry to hear that he didn't make it. 

I must tip my hat to you for your outstanding attempt to save the little guy. Immediate Q. Got him to the vet. Multiple vet consult. Treatments.

Most importantly, thank you for posting this.


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## metal_benji (Jun 29, 2008)

And I would do it all again next week if I had to as that is all they deserve from anyone keeping them in their care, if I have learnt anything from this experience it's that it's better to try your best and fail than to have never tried at all. I did what I could for him and have learnt a lot about treating frogs with infections, hopefully should I ever need to treat again I'll be better prepared.

Benji


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## Hoodsquirrel (Jul 28, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear that.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> Have you considered using an oral food for him?? The predigested liquid cat diets (like feline clinicare) are a staple when dealing with frogs that are malnourished in Zoos... It is balanced for the frogs and easy to administer if you have someone show you.
> The swabs should show but if it has been an ongoing issue for awhile, you could have multiple organisms involved in the problem.
> 
> Ed


Ed, is this something you think could be done on a video, and would you be comfortable putting one together?


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## Robzilla56 (Aug 2, 2011)

RIP little guy! I'm sad to read he didn't make it but you certainly did everything in your power to save the little guy, and I gotta give you respect for that! 

Robbie


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> Ed, is this something you think could be done on a video, and would you be comfortable putting one together?


I don't think I have most of the gear anymore. My catheter tubes that I used for it have gotten hard. It isn't hard and is a lot easier with two people. Basically one person restrains the frog by pinning the hind legs between the thumb and forefinger with the frog facing out across the fingers (almost like making a fist but the fingers are looser. This restrains the frog and allows the second person to use a thin spatula or credit card (actually the thin card is what the vets used most frequently) and then to gently slide the tube down into the stomach. The volume used is based on the calculations I posted in other threads documenting the number of fruit flies needed to meet the resting metabolic needs. The frog is restrained with it's head up until it closes it's mouth and the frog needs to be returned to the enclosure without it tilting it so it's head is facing down as tilting it can encourage the frog to throw up the contents of the stomach. There were some pictures illustrating it but I think the links were broken during one of the upgrades. 

Ed


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