# Softened Water in the Vivarium??



## buscema (Nov 3, 2005)

I'm constructing a Frog room and will be installing an RO system. I can set the RO supply from my softened water source - easiest install since the source is in the same location - OR - I can run unsoftened (before the softener) but that will take a little maneuvering to get that source to the RO system. Painful fishing through wall.

Does anyone have any worries about softened water for the frogs and plants?

Also, I know there is a debate re: RO water with the frogs...I've seen setups that use RO and there are no issues.

Thanks,
Dave


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Here's my 2 cents, the RO unit is intended to strip the water of anything but H2O, so what ever you feed it (within reason) it should remove. That being the case, I'd go with what ever is easiest for the RO unit to remove to reduce ware on the membrane and other filters. I'm not sure what happens when a membane needs to be replace, if it stops passing water or passes too much, but that would be a factor to consider, what is most harmful to the frogs, hard or soft water. I'm going to guess hard water because of the metals present in it, but that's a guess on my part. (Ed, comments on that last statement?)


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Several people have told me that softened water is easier on the RO unit than regular tap water, assuming that your tap water is full of dissolved solids, that is. I guess the sodium ions (the water softener replaces other dissolved metal ions with sodium ions) don't crust up the works as bad as stuff like iron and calcium.


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## buscema (Nov 3, 2005)

*So the salts from the Softener isn't bad for the frogs/plant*

I got the softenter to remove iron/manganese from my water since it was staining the toilets.

I was worried that the salts would be harmful to the animals. I assume RO will remove most of that (hopefully).

Wanted to confirm that others don't see issues with RO. Also, GE has a new Reservoir-less RO system...I'm using it directly into a misting pump...That means no maintance on misting other than changing the RO filters every 6 months!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The downside to using softened water is that it is hard to tell when the filter would need to be changed as sodium ions are hard to detect in the water supply. 

Typically hard water is not a problem for a lot of animals (yes there are exeptions) and I have reared tads in hard water for years and water softeners are typically installed as a convience factor for people (so soap lathers (as Ca and Mg soaps are very insoluable) and stains aren't left on things like toilets. (and water isn't typically hard because of the metals but because of the carbonates found with the metals..)

Ed


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## buscema (Nov 3, 2005)

*Exactly...*



Ed said:


> The downside to using softened water is that it is hard to tell when the filter would need to be changed as sodium ions are hard to detect in the water supply.
> 
> Typically hard water is not a problem for a lot of animals (yes there are exeptions) and I have reared tads in hard water for years and water softeners are typically installed as a convience factor for people (so soap lathers (as Ca and Mg soaps are very insoluable) and stains aren't left on things like toilets. (and water isn't typically hard because of the metals but because of the carbonates found with the metals..)
> 
> Ed


I installed the softener to eliminate staining on the porcelain toilets. I'm hopeful that the RO will remove any/all salts that are applied via the softening system. This is more convenience for me since the non-softened supply would require running a source through walls...

I want to make sure that the RO after the softener will be ok...


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

This thread might be of interest if you haven't read it before: Water Thread I think you'll find there's a good number of froggers who use RO/distilled with no problems because of how we use it.


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## bigphish (Sep 25, 2005)

I know of people that have problems if they install their RO systems 'downstream' of their water softeners, it seems like they just dont get the same amount of pressure or something. I put mine right on the water main coming into the house right after the meter. I then run a long rigid tubing for the waste and one for the good water each to where I want it. The 6 stage RO filter I got off Ebay was very reasonable and also comes with a valve that you flip to flush the membrane clean every now and then. I have made 1000's of gallons with mine and I have only changed the carbon and sediment filters. I check the TDS regularly and so far everything is still working.

--Steve


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## buscema (Nov 3, 2005)

*I think from all the feedback...*



defaced said:


> This thread might be of interest if you haven't read it before: Water Thread I think you'll find there's a good number of froggers who use RO/distilled with no problems because of how we use it.


That the RO after the Softener will do what I need to do...

Thanks for the help.

Dave.


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## buscema (Nov 3, 2005)

*Not sure...*



bigphish said:


> I know of people that have problems if they install their RO systems 'downstream' of their water softeners, it seems like they just dont get the same amount of pressure or something. I put mine right on the water main coming into the house right after the meter. I then run a long rigid tubing for the waste and one for the good water each to where I want it. The 6 stage RO filter I got off Ebay was very reasonable and also comes with a valve that you flip to flush the membrane clean every now and then. I have made 1000's of gallons with mine and I have only changed the carbon and sediment filters. I check the TDS regularly and so far everything is still working.
> 
> --Steve


Every RO mfg is specifying that they recommend softeners BEFORE their system...I have no idea why people would have pressure issues with whole house softeners...there would, I suspect, be plumbing/weekend warrier issues witht that.

I have excellent pressure post softener.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

a water softener does nothing to reduce water pressure. the membrane on your ro unit will last a lot longer if you soften the water first. the dissolved solids tear up an ro membrane. if there is chlorine in the water you would probably want to use carbon to remove the chlorine. chlorine also hurts the membrane on an ro unit.
since no one replied to my post on softened water and tads/frogs i had to experiment myself. all seems well(actually better) w/ all the animals so i dont believe the sodium added does anything worse than the dissolved salts and iron already present in the water.


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## buscema (Nov 3, 2005)

*Thanks for the reply...*



frogfarm said:


> a water softener does nothing to reduce water pressure. the membrane on your ro unit will last a lot longer if you soften the water first. the dissolved solids tear up an ro membrane. if there is chlorine in the water you would probably want to use carbon to remove the chlorine. chlorine also hurts the membrane on an ro unit.
> since no one replied to my post on softened water and tads/frogs i had to experiment myself. all seems well(actually better) w/ all the animals so i dont believe the sodium added does anything worse than the dissolved salts and iron already present in the water.


I sent you a PM asking if someone responded but if you have positive results then I'm moving forward with the RO without avoiding my softener.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The water pressure can be different depending on your water source. For example if you are out in the sticks like me and have a well, the pressure can vary enormously affecting how well the RO unit works. If this is your case then you can buy a booster pump for the RO unit to boost the efficiency. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

ya, most of them need 50psi to work well but mine drops to 45 and maxes at 60 and i have no problem. make sure your pressure tank is up to snuff and the pressure is at the right setting to work well.


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## buscema (Nov 3, 2005)

*I live in the sticks as well..*



Ed said:


> The water pressure can be different depending on your water source. For example if you are out in the sticks like me and have a well, the pressure can vary enormously affecting how well the RO unit works. If this is your case then you can buy a booster pump for the RO unit to boost the efficiency.
> 
> Ed


I have an RO system for my drinking water already and no issues. I ran an irrigation line from the furthest point of the house from the pressure tank and then ran polypile another 250'. The irrigation guy said I still had 15 gallons/min @ 70 PSI at that end point.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

if you ran it in line before the softener and a plumber did it for you he didnt know what he was doing. it takes a lot of filter to remove dissloved solids and kills the filter 3x as fast. not to mention that some sediment is settled out also. i have a house sediment filter(5-15m) after the softener and before the ro unit. i had an ro put in before i had a softener and i went thru 3 sets of filters for about 100g of water or less. now that i have a softener i have aleready got over 150 g of water w/ no wear on my ro unit. it all depends on the quality of the water pre ro. mine was pretty hard and dirty.


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## buscema (Nov 3, 2005)

*I know the problem...*



frogfarm said:


> if you ran it in line before the softener and a plumber did it for you he didnt know what he was doing. it takes a lot of filter to remove dissloved solids and kills the filter 3x as fast. not to mention that some sediment is settled out also. i have a house sediment filter(5-15m) after the softener and before the ro unit. i had an ro put in before i had a softener and i went thru 3 sets of filters for about 100g of water or less. now that i have a softener i have aleready got over 150 g of water w/ no wear on my ro unit. it all depends on the quality of the water pre ro. mine was pretty hard and dirty.


I have a well and the water has a lot of metals...My system has 3 elements in this order..

1) Media filter...not sure of the stuff in it....it's a cylinder with 5 layers of material.

2) Softener

3) RO system.

The irrigation line only has a whole house sediment filter. The original question to the thread was is it ok to use the softened water in conjunction with the RO system. Wanted to make sure the salts wouldn't harm the frogs/plants. If so, I was going to run a feed from the "unsoftened" irrigation line to front end the RO system. I'm aware that the RO would need more filter changes in that scenario. I was hoping that I could use the softened since it's convenient to the new frog room.

From all the feedback, I've seen that everyone believes it would be ok since the RO would strip out the sodium. The only info I've seen contrary to this opinion is from the Quality Captives site where the say NEVER use RO...However, I know a few how use RO exclusively without issue.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

oh, i see. ya the ro strips out anything left. pesticides fertilizers, etc. you want to use the green bag of salts, to remove the metals, in your softener(they should have already told you that). even then the softened water, pre ro, should be better for the frogs. i heard "salts" when they talked about the softener and immediately got worried also.


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## buscema (Nov 3, 2005)

*This is all good.*



frogfarm said:


> oh, i see. ya the ro strips out anything left. pesticides fertilizers, etc. you want to use the green bag of salts, to remove the metals, in your softener(they should have already told you that). even then the softened water, pre ro, should be better for the frogs. i heard "salts" when they talked about the softener and immediately got worried also.


I said salts since that is what goes in the softener...they told me to use the yellow bags. What is the difference?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

my fault, dont go by the color. home depots salts for hi iron are green bags. read the labels according to what`s in your water. the color of the bag is probably different according to what store/brand you use.


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## buscema (Nov 3, 2005)

*Isn't technology great...*



Ed said:


> The downside to using softened water is that it is hard to tell when the filter would need to be changed as sodium ions are hard to detect in the water supply.
> 
> Typically hard water is not a problem for a lot of animals (yes there are exeptions) and I have reared tads in hard water for years and water softeners are typically installed as a convience factor for people (so soap lathers (as Ca and Mg soaps are very insoluable) and stains aren't left on things like toilets. (and water isn't typically hard because of the metals but because of the carbonates found with the metals..)
> 
> Ed


TDS Meter Dual Mode Readings - Professional Grade - Easily Installs Inline - Very Simple To Use. Measure the tap water coming in vs. the purified water going out of your system at any time. Use the meter to determine when the filters need to be changed. $49.99.

So it tells me when to change.


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