# Red eyed tree frog help



## cam4frogs (Feb 24, 2020)

Hello, I have had two red eyed tree frogs for about a year. They are in a 20 gallon tall with many live plants. The cage is heated to the mid 70s range. I mist twice a day. I have a fogger than turns on when humidity drops below 60%. It rarely comes on. There is a large water bowl on the ground. My frogs sleep more than normal. Hours after the lights turn off, they are still asleep. Do frogs hibernate? Also, I've read that they will eat to obesity. My frogs are thin. I find poop, but they don't eat much. Is there a way to get the crickets to stay in a container without jumping away? I just want to know why my frogs don't eat much and why they sleep so much. Does anyone have any ideas?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Tropical frogs dont hibernate but become torpid if too cool. How are you determining the temperature?

The most accurate way is a temp gun. Where the frogs actually are. On the frogs dorsum, avoid stressing them by hitting their eyes. 

I have used substantially sized crocks, straight sided with wet fresh food inside to keep the crickets nourished and occupied. Some may pop out but if the station is right, enough will be gathered to be a workable system. The frogs habituate to the site readily. I like to elevate it on an over turned pot. I have siliconed small branches and cork slats to integrate the rim into usable biome surface. It has been so useful that I dont consider it "taking up space"

Elevating it also make it easy to remove and clean.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

By straight sided, I mean not fluted like common dinner bowls. Just a straight up, opaque crock like what is used to provide water for snakes. I suppose another container would work but that's worked well with fast availability


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I don't keep RETFs, but: do you mist daily? I doubt they drink from a bowl...

Also: does the humidistat actually work? Such devices are really unreliable.

I'm thinking dehydration should be considered. They should actively hunt crickets easily in such a small enclosure.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

They do better with a pool, and better with one thats easily refreshed, ie in a receptacle. They won't dehydrate and like to seat osmotically like many frogs.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The crickets/larvae types in the elevated station duplicate arboreal insect encounters. Terrestrial oriented crickets force the frogs to forage in sub out of hunger. But they would rather not be on the ground.
All of the insects and larvae they hunt are foraging, landing, resting, mating in arboreal situ as well.

They grow very quickly and have the best flesh value this method.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I don't keep RETFs, but: do you mist daily?


Aack -- I reread your original post and found the answer. Oops.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

A contained pool is a valuable enrichment but there is no room for neglect. Think of its maintenance like zoo water pool management on a small scale. Ergonomics and the right tools are key. If its too difficult and cumbersome to service, it will not be changed as frequently as it would if it is easier.

A cheap Ace auto hand siphon, the kind with a red plastic bulb, and a length of polyvinyl tubing on the out end, long enough to run into your bucket negates having to lift the crock out every change. Cut the pull end at an angle.

You can wipe it out with a paper towel, then refill with a pitcher, etc.

I like to put a smooth stone breaking at the edge, to provide graduation the frogs to use, so that they can repose comfortably and control how much they want to immerse. It also helps crickets escape the water. The stone and crock gets a plain water scald & scrub once a week, or more if an unpleasant bio condition occurs, that deems response. I like hydrogen peroxide if antisepsis is needed as it is faster to rinse than bleach. 

A standard 20 tall aquarium, can be a real PIA compared to an exo terra that opens from the front. The difference between Pain and Pleasure in keeping.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The problem with using a bioactive water area for arboreal frogs is that many species become vulnerable to disease if their situ is too wet. A warm recycled pool that is a deposit spot for fairly large stool boluses, deceased sub adult to large crickets, cricket waste (they defecate copiously) is 'bioactive' and an excellent petri for protozoan and other microbial life that is not 'beneficial'

Arboreal frogs need fresh air and very clean water, and an opportunity to perch somewhere where they can cyclically escape contact moisture, but also access it will, usually at night, or early in the morning.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kmc said:


> A standard 20 tall aquarium, can be a real PIA compared to an exo terra that opens from the front. The difference between Pain and Pleasure in keeping.


I agree 100%. Do you think there are also substantial ventilation benefits to an Exo-type enclosure vs a fish tank?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Oh yeah and some of the copy cats are pretty good too, but I kinda wish there were more..

I would love it if the tops had better screen and less occlusion, as a keeper of lizards as well id like to not have the plastic cross supports dictating my light placements.

Also, Soc, if I ever seem short in my follow up comments its this damn old Microsoft nokea phone. Its like playing digital hopscotch. 

There might be a thread here already about "What you would like to see in an off the shelf enclosure" 

Threads where ppl actually make their own front openers really make me covet their skills. Dreamy.


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

Having kept many RETF's I am going to suggest something that some will consider controversial. Don't keep two adult Red Eyes in a planted vivarium of such a small size. I keep mine in more lab like arrangement: open grid floors over water with easy to change organic paper or bamboo towels. 
These frogs produce a huge amount of waste and tons of ammonia. It's hard to imagine that an ~ 200 in/sq surface area (footprint of a 20 H) could process their excrement effectively, even with a great clean up crew. Smell the enclosure. Does it smell like a forest after a fresh rain, or like a sour outhouse? Probably somewhere in between. If it smells sour- that's your problem. This type of general malaise is often linked to poor sanitation.
I pull "turds" daily from my tree/leaf frog enclosures. Occasionally I'll pop one into the potted plants in the vivs, but I usually just remove poop. If you want a bioactive viv for tree frogs, it should be really large. I'm considering one myself. and it will be over 20 gals/frog, with the ability to cycle substrate. 10 gallons (nominally) per frog is too small in my opinion. That's less than what I provide per frog for the more spartan enclosures I use. 
I also agree with the "feeding station" that KMC was speaking about. All my tree frogs that will train to a station- get one. _Cruziohylas_ seem to not go for it, so I use a cricket cup with a branch in it to get the crickets to climb up to their fate. You could try that too. Decaying crickets on the ground also contribute to the decay load. 
For the short term, you could consider completely replacing your substrate, if it seems sour, and re introducing isos and springtails. If your frogs respond favorably- then you have your answer.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I have been hesitant to mention my substrate less arboreal environments. I just didnt want to debate about it because, well its tiring haha. 

Whites, Redeyed, Phyllomedusa, have no relationship with a sub ground level and to think of the ground in nature as the sub layer in a tank is really miniaturizing ones perspective in a way that doesn't translate realistically as the motive of its intention.

My whites for example, perch on the warmed aspect of their environment floor like its a leaf plane. I pluck out their stool easily, takes seconds, or else it is it the water feature, which again is simple and takes a few moments.

Ive reared red eyed froglets similarly, using layer of dampened towels that were easy to change. 

It works. Substrate doesn't 'mean' anything to many arboreals.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kmc said:


> Also, Soc, if I ever seem short in my follow up comments its this damn old Microsoft nokea phone. Its like playing digital hopscotch.


No worries. 

If I ever seem crabby, it is my arrogant Mac acting like it knows everything and not accurately processing all the humble and helpful things I type.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I just broke into a grin. Your the best.


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

Kmc said:


> Ive reared red eyed froglets similarly, using layer of dampened towels that were easy to change.


We've reared dozens of RETF froglets in 18X18X24 exoterras with super spartan furnishings. Daily cleanings, feedings- slightly elevated temps. We called it power cycling froggies. But that's over-kill for a simple pair and their long term care needs. 
Bioactive terraria are great for small terrestrial frogs and make a lot of sense in terms of reduced maintenance and keeper ease. But in many cases, these fancy, gorgeous, glass rain forests are mostly for our benefit, and aesthetics. 
The super-large bioactive I am considering would be for Phyllomedusa bicolor, a quite large frog with an exciting claim to fame. The design and planting would be for display and not so much for the frogs. I anticipate it will complicate their keeping just a bit more than the benefit of self-contained poop recycling will ease it. But it could be cool.


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## Tweetysvoice (Mar 28, 2019)

Kmc said:


> I have been hesitant to mention my substrate less arboreal environments.
> 
> My whites for example, perch on the warmed aspect of their environment floor like its a leaf plane.
> 
> It works. Substrate doesn't 'mean' anything to many arboreals.


You just blew my mind. My anoles never use the ground and its a pita to keep the substrate dry enough to not get icky. Why do i need it? The crix and dubia just stay low and avoid being eaten cuz my anoles never go below the 1/2 way mark. Usually the highest avail. How do you make them think the floor is a leaf plane? My 35tall is already on the highest shelf in my pet room (bottom about 5ft from floor) so I have to access it via ladder, but i did that since they are so low maintenance and prefer the height. Please tell me more! Lol

Sent from my LGL83BL using Tapatalk


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Aw you're fun. 

So my Whites Tree frogs have a loop of cable under the floor, in association with the heat mats on the wall that are controlled by a thermostat. The loop is not. It is part of a POTZ configuration that runs under another guys encl also. 

In the daylight hours this cable is on, and it is also on the same side as the lighting I use for them. During the night it is not on.

Anoles are messier than my frogs, like little birds, and can be masters of all terrain. Pixie Ninja Badasses.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Part of the reason why the frogs use the floor like that is because they sit alot, and there are huge leaved foliage in their native habitat. They perch there, and move to the other perches too. 

The anoles activity level and athleticism as well as the urea component of their stool, which is stubbornly chalky when it dries might be difficult to keep up with, and you want some damp soil in some potted plants if you want to allow them to breed, which they will. Not to be a debbie downer but just sayin.


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