# That Old Chestnut (Skinny Frog)



## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

Good morning all. Long time listener, first time caller. I recently acquired a 6 (?) month old Auratus black and green from a local pet shop in the ATL area on Sunday, Jan 9. I assume about 6 months because he's about 3/4 inch long, maybe an inch. I use he but am insure of gender. At the store, he looked fine. Upon arriving home, he was actually terribly emaciated. Per the advice of every frogger here, I had a fecal run on fresh matter within 12 hours of deposit and it was clean. I have attached images of the fecal and frog below, (I am blessed to work at a school with a retired vet with a Masters in Parasitology who was gracious enough to run the fecal.) I also isolated into a shoebox with paper towels, a bit of sphagnum and a disposable hide. He is eating but not hunting per say, he will wait for a fly to walk in front of him then strike. 
My question is this: Is there anything I can do in addition to the steps I have taken to give this guy the greatest chance at survival? 
Temps: Measured with temp gun. Day 71-73 F, night 67-68 F. No supp heating. 
Humidity: <80%. Distilled water, pressurized hand sprayer. Calibrated hydrometer is placed in tank until reading stabilizes then is removed.
Tank: Exo Terra 18x18x12 living vivarium. It has been established for 1 year. Glass top with 1 inch vent on back. Front vents are open and uncovered.
Supplement: Brand new Repashy Calcium Plus dusted every feeding. 
Food: Melanogaster FF, fed once per day (20-30 flies), twice if no FF are left on feeding station. 
Lights: 1 Josh's frog LED grow light, (the one with multiple small LEDs) one Phillip's LED grow light 40 watt equivalent, very little heat added. 
How Many: Solo frog now, has been in the viv solo for 3 months.
Behavior: Nothing unusual. Lots of hiding which I understand is normal for Auratus. 
Touching: None. I scooped him from the living viv to quarantine in a clean, disposable plastic cup. No chemicals nearby, all are in attic or locked away (new foster parent to an infant so everything is babyproof) 
Thanks for any input you can give!


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

Replying to myself: these are the comments from the vet: 

Hi Josh,
I made two types of examinations of the fecal specimen from your dart frog. A direct smear in isotonic saline revealed no protozoan parasites such as _Giardia_ or _Trichomonas_. There was no evidence of parasitic ova or oocytes (coccidia).
Microscopic examination of the fecal smear showed many exoskeletal parts--from food, I suspect, as you see below.

There were also several arthropods that appeared undigested, and I believe they are a common soil organism of the insect order Collembola, which I regard as an incidental finding, unrelated to illness. There were probably feeding on the feces.

There were a number of structures, which at low magnification might be mistaken for ova, particularly hookworm ova such as _Ancylostoma sp_.; however, at higher magnification, these were irregularly-shaped and not ova. Not sure, but they sort of looked like fat globules at higher magnification. Also, they were suspended at the top of the saline, near air bubbles, as I would expect from low-density material like fat. There were quite a few of these, and they made me wonder about an absorption problem--not able to absorb nutrients from the intestine.


I used a micro-pipette tube to run a mini fecal flotation with hypertonic saline. Again, no ova, oocytes, or other evidence of intestinal parasitism.
The partially digested exoskeletal material suggests to me that digestion is not a problem, but there can still be issues with absorbing nutrients.
(I almost wrote, "Thank you for referring this interesting case.")
I hope the exotic vets at UGA have some suggestions. I will be VERY interested to hear what they have to say, and feel free to share this information with them. (I know my ****, literally!)


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

ArtTeacherFrogger said:


> Collembola,


It may be that the frog was not offered FFs (it could have been in the wholesale pipeline for some time; you say that the frog was 'in the viv solo for three months -- I presume that means at the shop? They may have not been feeding a prey item the frog would accept), and was attempting to subsist on springtails.

Personally, as long as it is eating I would simply continue to provide dusted FFs. I don't know that there's any reason to feed something more nutritionally dense to speed up weight gain -- the frog may have some vitamin/mineral deficiencies too, that I'd be concerned to make worse by making growth outpace supplement intake. Just speculation on those issues, though.


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

That is correct, he was in the vivarium at the shop for three months, the frog and viv were a package deal. The springtail idea totally makes sense, as you can clearly see it in the sample. Thanks for the suggestion on feeding, I was considering extra small BSLs but will hold off for now until more weight is gained.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

If he is eating, keep feeding. That is a good sign. You may want to give him a weekly dusting of Vitamin A as well, as he is likely vitamin deficient, and it may be a reason why he is having trouble catching flies.


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

Is the vitamin A in addition to the Repashy? I though it had vitamin A already. What brand is accepted for dusting?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Technically a negative fecal doesn't mean it doesn't have a parasite or parasites, it just means none were detected at that time and why institutions often test multiple times during quarantine, with that said given the condition of the frog it should be actively passing parasites. 
There are multiple reasons for an emaciated frog, insufficient feedings prior to acquisition, inflammation from protozoal overgrowth, poor vitamin A status and/or viral/bacterial infections as possible examples. You can opt for the gold standard test for parasites through PCR testing or keep working with your vet. You can ask if they think assist feeding with Oxbow's Critical Care for Carnivores (see Oxbow Animal Health) would be of use in fixing it's nutritional status. 

Some comments

Ed


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

Thanks so much Ed, I will be sure to talk to her about the Oxbow. This is a new to me intervention. I am aware that multiple tests are good but I also thought that surely the stress of moving terrariums in addition to all the other stressors would squeeze any parasites out. My vet did check for protozoa and did not find any so that is a relief. I will keep update as their condition improves!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you want to try PCR this is a place commonly used by hobbyists RAL - Reptile / Amphibian

Ed


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

Update: he is very active, exploring his viv and hunting flies. He reminds me of a cat, very curious and engaged with his environment. He is using every inch! There is a small dish of water and he soaked in it for about 15 minutes or so. I ripped out what appeared to be chickweed and replaced it with a pothos clipping and two (processed) orchids that I had from my collection. It seemed a better use of space. I also added some oak leaf litter as I understand that Auratus prefer to hid beneath it. I also ordered some Repashy Vit. A and will use that every day for a week and then switch to once a week to combat what might be STS. The vent on the back has cleared the excess condensation; however the humidity remains at or above 80%. I don’t have any ABG on hand but Repticon is coming next month and I will procure some as well as some extra leaf litter. The substrate seemed very soggy and mostly sphagnum moss.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

ArtTeacherFrogger said:


> I also ordered some Repashy Vit. A and will use that every day for a week and then switch to once a week to combat what might be STS


I would not recommend this course of action, you are very likely to overdose the frog on vitamin A.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Yeah, every day is a lot, and also (and maybe worse) would displace the necessary vitamins/minerals in the Calcium Plus that wouldn't be supplied for that week. I don't think we know exactly what the right amount is, though. 

I discovered when researching this that Vitamin D is harder than I had thought to overdose, but I have killed geckos by a probable overdose of Vitamin A over a period of months in a misguided attempt to remedy reproductive failures (necropsy was consistent with chronic overdose).


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

Understood. Thanks for that save. So the best course of action is to supplement the Vit A once a week as per instructions, even though there are symptoms of STS?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Honestly: I don't know. I do know that the highest recommended dose is 4x month; seven doses in a row seems like a lot, and if it is Vit A deficient because of problematic feeding history it is likely Ca deficient too, and a week of no real Ca intake doesn't sound like a good idea in a nutritionally sketchy animal. 

Calcium Plus does contain sufficient maintenance levels of Vitamin A. But this is kind of intuition here, and my intuition is guided by experiences that others haven't had, and lack of experience that others do have.

If it is successfully catching food, and improving on that metric, I personally wouldn't push any one thing too hard. But that's just me. Whatever you do, please report back so we can all learn.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Any updates?


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

He’s doing great! Very active, eating often. I feed as many flies as he will eat in 24 hours, so 20-30 flies per feeding. He's slowly gaining fat back. The other really exciting developments to me: His aim is almost always perfect, he actually hunts the flies now and his coordination is very much improved. I'm hoping in the next month he will be back up to his correct weight!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

That's great news. 

Could you clarify exactly what changes you made in the past couple weeks that we might assume effected this improvement?


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> That's great news.
> 
> Could you clarify exactly what changes you made in the past couple weeks that we might assume effected this improvement?


Great question. I cut the glass top that was originally covering the entire tank and put a 2 inch vent in. I have been using Repashy Calcium Plus every feeding and the Repashy Vit. A every Tuesday. (Do I use it INSTEAD of the Calcium plus during that feeding or in addition to?) I have a feeding station set up outside his coco hut which I believe helps him continue to eat. Here are my suspicions as to why he was doing so poorly when I first got him:
1) The shop I got him from was NOT using the correct supplements. I know this for a fact. 
2) I am not sure what his light schedule was but I am pretty sure it was not 12 hours, every day.
3) Fully covered viv.
4) Auratus, as we know, are very shy. This poor guy was front and center in the reptile area of the store. I am almost positive that stress was driving him to the back of the vivarium, away from his food. 
5) The climate control of the pet shop was broken when I bought him. I do not know for how long, but when I walked in it was 80 degrees and the salesperson said it had been that way all day. Now his temps are from 67-72 degrees. 
Other than the changes I made to address these difficulties I did no other intervention. No pedialyte baths, no force feeding. I simply quarantined him for a week to make hunting easier and had fecals run. I am curious if sometimes the poking and prodding we do to a frog that IS sick but not on death's door causes a steeper decline. 
Please ask if there were other things you were curious about.


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

He is by no means a chunk yet but is no longer shaped like a chisel 😭. I’m slowly seeing a belly develop. I’m honestly glad he’s putting on weight slowly and consistently, rather than in a big rush.

I forgot something else: I added loads of leaf litter, another pothos and another orchid. I also tore out what appeared to be chickweed (?) I looked it up and it was indeed chickweed. Don’t know who had that bright idea. He seems to enjoy it much more, having lots of places to hid. I would rather overplant, give plenty of cover and have a stress free frog than see him every second of the day.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

ArtTeacherFrogger said:


> (Do I use it INSTEAD of the Calcium plus during that feeding or in addition to?


Instead of, is my understanding.

Thank you so much for elaborating what you did in this case. It is very helpful to know that simply giving optimal care can turn a situation like this around (it is a not-uncommon situation for a new keeper to find themselves in, given the poor conditions darts are often kept in by general pet stores, and even by reptile shops), and I think your implication that too much intervention causes more harm than good is spot-on.

Do keep up updated.


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

I will do so. I hope to be posting a nice (healthy) chubby frog in the next few weeks.

Question: It is an 18x18x12 viv, heavily planted. Is that large enough to add ONE (1) other auratus black and green? I ask because Repticon is coming to Atlanta next month and I'd love to add one more frog. If no, totally fine. It gives me an excuse to save for an InSitu viv . I am not married to the idea at all.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

If it were me, I'd give the current frog a lot more time to get back to 100%. You're doing a phenomenal job with it, but in the most recent photo it looks really rough. 

Might be worth QTing any additions separately, too.


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

Sounds great. I will wait. If I was to get another it would be a juvie and be in a QT/growout tank for a few months anyway until it reached 3/4 inches. That just gives me more time to set up the perfect vivarium!


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

ArtTeacherFrogger said:


> I am curious if sometimes the poking and prodding we do to a frog that IS sick but not on death's door causes a steeper decline.



In many cases that can definitely be the case, especially for a situation like yours where you get an animal with clearly identified husbandry problems and who is still eating normally without an obvious disease process ID'd by your vet. People like to feel like they're doing something, but doing random treatments is not necessarily a good thing. There's a quote from _The House of God_ that references this: "THE DELIVERY OF _GOOD MEDICAL_ CARE IS TO DO AS _MUCH NOTHING AS POSSIBLE." _(Knowing how much nothing is possible is the tricky part, of course).

Glad he's doing better.


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

Update: still eating and exploring, he is doing fantastic! Steadily putting on weight. You can see his back legs are slowly accumulating fat again. Just thrilled.


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