# Should



## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Here are few pics of my auratus pair. I was told that the female may have a worm under the skin and that the male is getting too skinny. Please take a look and tell me what you think. Thus is the female








The male













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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Why guess?
Just QT and send fecals to a Vet...

My .02...

-Beth


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Male looks like he's got worms. Female look okay, but if she was with the male, then she probably has them too, she's just not showing it yet. I'd get a fecal done on them asap, and try and start treating them asap with as little stress as possible. It's much easier treating them at this stage, then when they are VERY skinny and almost gone.. Good luck with them.


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks for quick response. Here is the thing.......I don't know what to do. Do I need to tell the vet what to look for. There are no exotic animal vets in this are. If they do have worms what do I need to tell him to give me. My poor babies. And, how in the world do you treat a frogs? 

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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

The way you get them tested is by sending fecal samples to a vet. If you can't find a local exotic vet near you, I know there are a couple vets everyone on here can suggest to you to send them in. If they do have parasites, you'll have to pitch everything in their tank, and bleach the whole tank. They will need to be quarantined in clean tubs or tanks.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

they are the vet, they should know what to give...


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Here is a good quarantine tank. It's a 10g, for one of my male azureus. You can see there is plenty of space to reduce stress. There is paper towel to easily take fecals to text. Also there are lots of different sized hides, and lead little to reduce stress. You can see, but I also have a piece of banana at the front as a feeding station, and to keep extra fruit flies away from him and his hides.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Here is Dr. Frye's email address. [email protected]
Here is the letter he sent me, about collecting fecals. This is from months ago so the cost may have changed. 
_The cost is $18 per group of frogs housed together. Collect 3-5 feces from each group of frogs and put them in a small air-tight container with a small amount of moist paper towel to keep them from drying out. Label each tank’s sample and send them ASAP to 517 West Main St, Milan MI 48160. Try to aim for a Tuesday, Thursday, or Friday delivery. We are closed Wednesdays and Sundays, and the hospital closes on Saturdays before mail arrives. Next day delivery is ideal, but 2-day will work. You can include a check, call my hospital to pre-pay via credit card at ***-***-****, or send me funds through Pay-Pal at this address. Thanks._
Oh, and next time, a proper title would have gotten my attention a lot sooner. Not harshing you...just saying.


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank you so much, I really appreciate it. Well, that title was exidental, it was supposed to be "should I be worried". I did go back in to modify but for some reason it didn't save the title. Sometimes if I'm posting tings from my phone it times out I guess so then I'm unable to submit.
Anyway I moved them into temp container they seems really stressed but I'll get them some more hideouts and bigger containers hopefully that will help.
Somebody also said I need to gut the tank which is fine because I was gonna do that anyway but is there a way to save some of the plants

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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Nope. Everything in the entire tank needs to be pitched. And the tank itself needs to be bleached.


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Well, I got the kids quarantined and they seems to be doing very well. The first day they were little freaked out but then it was business as usual. They are eating find and no unusual behavior. I did take everything out of the viv and I'm glad I did. The substrate was soaked. When I took the first layer out it was filled with water. Now I get to rebuild this one and continue construction on the other. Fun, fun

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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

First of all I would like to thank pumilo for the email for dr frye. I have been searching and searching all over this place to find a vet who would do the fecal. Every time I would get a "NO". Today I got in touch with dr. frye and I sent out the samples they should be there by tomorrow. Now......waiting.......I hate waiting . 
As I said before I cleaned out the viv but I saved the plants just in case. But, all the plant got soaked in bleach solution. This evening I'll start the construction.

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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

way to properly take charge of your situation. did you e-mail frye pics?

james


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Yes I did. He emailed me back within 30 min which completely amazed me, and he said that the male did look slightly skinny and that he gladly help. 

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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

*Sad News*

 Today I receive an e-mail from Dr. Frye. He said that both frogs had large amount of parasites. He said that hookworms and Strogyloides worms were found in large amounts. But worst then that, they also had coccidia. What I don't understand is how in the world could hey have gotten all that sh....
All my stuff came from one place and both frogs were purchased at the same place. I am very grateful to be part of dendroboard because if it wasn't for all of the people responding to my threads and all the advise I have been given so far I would have not even realized that they were sick until it was too late. The sad thing is that I have 13 tads in water right now and two of them have their back legs. Since coccidia is contagious the chances are that my tads are affected. Now the priority is to treat the pair and hope for the best. This is kind of news I was hoping not to get .


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

The meds finally arrived 

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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

best of luck and good job at doing the right thing!!!! just curious? what did meds cost for all that? and have you talked to the person that sold them to you?


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Meds were $52 and its was mostly email correspondence because no vet in my are would do anything and the ones that offered had no experience with exotics let alone darts. I was wondering if I have to throw away all the leaf litter everyday or just the ones that have poop on them? Seems like they like to poop on leaves rather then paper towels.

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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

I have always believed you need to do a 100% change on everything in their tank when treating. Might be useful to have 2 tanks (or even clear plastic bins with lids) to put them in while completely sterilizing the other so you can easily rotate on a daily basis.


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Here are few pics of the pair since the the first day of quarantine. And its is also first day of meds lets hope its smooth sailing from now on. And I have to say.......this is not and easy or cheap hobby. People who are not willing to dedicated quite some time to their animals should not get darts. But on the same note its is the most enjoyable and rewarding hobby I could have ever asked for. I also would like to thank everybody for you help.









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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Props to you for acting quickly and caring for your frogs... I hope all turns out well.

When you rebuild the viv, make sure there is somewhere you can insert a thin piece of tubing down into the drainage layer to suck excess water out occasionally.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Coccidia is a bad one, cannot be cured but will go in remission with continued treatment. There is a chance your tads are not infected, once they morph out have them tested before selling them etc.
Be careful with the frogs you have, coccidia is easily transmitted.

Glad you tested and are letting Dr. Frye help you.

-Beth


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank you tclipse, I never thought about putting a tube in a drainage layer that is a great idea. I will put its in both vivs . 
I have learned quite a bit in these past few week thanks to all of you. I am especially grateful to Dr. Frye for responding so quickly and heping me out. I have also heard that crickets are notorious for spreading coccidia, and its just so happens that I gave them some few months ago. Now when I think back after that is when I noticed these nasty little worms. They were really tiny and barely noticeable. I asked about it and was told they were harmless. Oh well, now I know to be more careful, and I have a chance to build a better viv .
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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

You really got a good lesson about buying from someone who is a trusted breeder. A lot of people have collections which bringing one bad animal in could mean all their collection could get infected.


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

It's seems like they are getting much worse. The female has gotten really skinny and they don't seems to be eating. I don't know what to do anymore I'm afraid I might loose both of them.
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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Do what ever dr fry said and don't deviate


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Get another fecal check done on the frogs. There may be something else going on with the frogs that was missed in the first fecal. If you can get the fecal read locally that would be a big help as some things may not show up after being in the mail for several days. You can see if you have a herp vet near you via this link ARAV 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

motydesign said:


> Do what ever dr fry said and don't deviate


If the frog's aren't eating and he was given medicine that has to be dusted on the food then he is going to have issues. He either needs to discuss the change in symptoms with Dr. Frye or find a closer vet and discuss it with them. If they have truley stopped eating then they may need to be tube fed orally to get them over the hump. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bcs TX said:


> Coccidia is a bad one, cannot be cured but will go in remission with continued treatment. There is a chance your tads are not infected, once they morph out have them tested before selling them etc.
> Be careful with the frogs you have, coccidia is easily transmitted.
> 
> Glad you tested and are letting Dr. Frye help you.
> ...


 Testing the metamorphs doesn't mean that they are free of coccidia, all it means is that they aren't shedding at that moment. The only way to be sure that a frog doesn't have coccidia is to do a necropsy and perform histopathology on the digestive tract. 

Also coccidia is readily introduced to enclosures via feral invertebrates or on plants or other materials (and some coccidians can only be killed by live steam, autoclaving, or ammonia (at least as strong as undiliuted household ammonia (which is a problem as organics, crevices and cracks in materials prevent contact) for at least 15 minutes. 

Coccidia can be managed, it can't be prevented because the odds are that the frogs are going to get it during thier lifetime unless they are maintained in a total sterile enviroment and this includes thier feeder cultures. 


Ed


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Well, I tried something new. I disinfected their containers and I put them together in a much bigger one. I added some springs and ffs and I left them alone. Hour or so later I checked in on hem and what do you know....THEY WERE EATING AND HOPPING AROUND . Previously I had them in 190oz containers from Josh's Frog. Nice size container but it seems like they didn't like them at all. Next week I'm going to pick up 10 or maybe 20 gal tank until they are ready to go back into their new viv. Does anyone have any recommendation on feeders that would help putting some weight on them?


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Yuppie they are eating . Since I have put them together they have been eating all their ffs. Today I watched them for about 15 min, and I noticed a difference in their behavior. They are lots more relaxed, and they started eating as soon as I closed the lid. 

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## Robzilla56 (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm glad to hear they are doing well! Do you plan on getting fecals done again once you feel they are back to normal? I'm just curious. I have read several threads about skinny frogs or sick frogs and rarely do people follow up with success. Update us again as they continue to improve! 

Robbie


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

I will definitely have them retested as many times as necessary, and once the tads morph I will have them tested few times to make sure they are clean. When I got into this hobby it was with deduction and I will do eveything in my power to keep my frogs and their offspring healthy. Thank you for the reply, I will definitely keep posting updates. 

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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Goji said:


> I will definitely have them retested as many times as necessary, and once the tads morph I will have them tested few times to make sure they are clean. When I got into this hobby it was with deduction and I will do eveything in my power to keep my frogs and their offspring healthy. Thank you for the reply, I will definitely keep posting updates.
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


Those tests will not prove that the frogs are free from coccidia. The only way to be sure is to euthanize each and every frog and necropsy them to see if they are infected or not. 

Ed


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Ed i am curious what you are insinuating with that post(do you feel the frogs should be culled?) or it is merely just stating the fact you can not know for certain if the frogs are free of coccidia with out a necropsy?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

motydesign said:


> Ed i am curious what you are insinuating with that post(do you feel the frogs should be culled?) or it is merely just stating the fact you can not know for certain if the frogs are free of coccidia with out a necropsy?


I'm not insinuating anything. I am stating the fact (which is well documented in the literature) that you cannot know for certain whether or not a frog is not infected with coccidia unless the frog is euthanized and has a necropsy performed. I am pointing this out because there is a misperception about fecals and coccidia (and a number of other things found or not found in them). The information on coccidia can be found in _Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry_ and in _Poynton, S. L.; Whitaker, B. R.; 1994; Protozoa in poison dart frogs (Dendrobatidae): clinical assessment and identification; Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine 25:29-29_. The literature is clear on the fact even over the course of a number of years and/or any number of fecals that negative fecals do not indicate a coccidia (or parasite free) frog. The only thing that is definite is that if coccidia is detected in the fecal, it will always be in the digestive tract regardless of the medication used or the frequency at which they are treated. 

Ed


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Update!!!!!








it's week four of treatment and they seem to be doing much better. It's hard for me to tell but I think they might have gained weight. 
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## ocellaris123 (Jun 13, 2011)

Looks like the male has gained alot of weight. Good job, what are you treating and how are you treating?


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Hookworms, strolgyloides, and coccidia. I didn't think they were ginna make it at first but I have to say those little guys are fighters. In couple of week I'll get them retested. I do need to finish reconstruction on the viv. 

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## ocellaris123 (Jun 13, 2011)

Sorry, I should have been more specific. What kind of medication did you use I meant, and how did you administer the meds.


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Panacur for hooks and strongly. I am not sure about coccidia meds. The pancur I use once a week by dusting the ffs, and coccidia meds I had to mix with reptile-cal and the multi vitamin and is used as daily ff dusting suppl. 

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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Today I have sent a fecal sample back to Dr. Frye to have the pair retested. Lets hope for the best

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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

Wooooohhhooo the test came back negative. Today they got move to a more comfortable enclosure.









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## xsputnikx (May 11, 2010)

Glad to hear this 

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