# Morph Interbreeding



## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

Another question from the new kid. Common sense would tell me that different colour morphs within a particular species can breed and produce viable offspring. Do people mix colour morphs, and if so what is the outcome?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The short answer, no. The long answer is contained in the the many, many threads on the topic. Here's the one from the beginner section sticky: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13169


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

That link talks about mixed tanks containing DIFFERENT species and hybridizm. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my original post.

I was wondering about whether or not people breed different "morphs" from different localities within the SAME species.


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

that would still be a big NO. As he mentioned, too many threads to count are already on the board on the subject. mixing morphs is very irresponsible, as they will almost certainly end up on the market at some point, and can easily be passed off (sometimes unknowingly) as a true bred frog.


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## grendel88 (Oct 19, 2006)

I doubt it's so much that the frogs will end up in the market. As collector's and breeders of animals that are endangered in the wild, we have an accountability for the welfare of the species. Interbreeding constitutes a loss of genetic diversity. Homogenization of all these animals would result in the extinction of many of the more inconspicuous varieties. I don't mean to be preachy, but this is the "big picture" view of hybridization. This is also why there is also a premium on breeding different bloodlines, to reduce loss of diversity through inbreeding.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> I doubt it's so much that the frogs will end up in the market.


Not the case. There have been several accounts of people finding crossed frogs for sale at shows, both labeled as crosses and not labeled as crosses. Some people don't know better, and others don't care. The only thing we can do is to continue to educate people and to not buy the crosses when we see them. 



> That link talks about mixed tanks containing DIFFERENT species and hybridizm. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my original post.
> 
> I was wondering about whether or not people breed different "morphs" from different localities within the SAME species.


For all intents and purposes, we treat each population of frog as it's own species. We do our very best to make sure that breeding efforts are only carried out with frogs that came from the same wild population. So different colored frogs of the same species would constitute two different wild populations, thus we don't breed the two together.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

I think hybridization would be an incorrect word to use when talking about different colour morphs of the same species. Hybridization implies the crossing of different species that usually results in sterile individuals. Im assuming that crossmorphs would be completely fertile? With that said, I don't see the problem in herpetoculture with crossmorphs, I mean, it's not like we would be disrupting nature. And it's not like the crossmorphs would be released back into an area where natural species exist, at least not by me, someone who lives all the way up in Canada. Herpetoculture excels on the "different", whether it be hybrids, albinos, melanistics or whatever. As long as it is sold as a crossmorph and the buyer is completely aware, I don't see the problem. I am not talking about inbreeding at all here. That is a completely separate topic.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Every point you bring up has been covered to vast lengths many different times before; spend a couple of hours with the search feature and you will find each of them and then some. 

Simply put, we as a hobby have decided to operate as I have stated above. It is conservative, but that's the way it is. Tree Walkers International and the Amphibian Steward Network are two example of how the hobby is working to institutionalize our ideals and provide mechanisms to manage them.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

The importance pretty much comes down to preserving genetic diversity among species. If you start breeding different morphs and selling them, you lose that diversity. These animals are threatened throughout most/all of their range, so it's important that, as keepers, we protect what we can "should the worst happen."

Another point to be made is that nature gets things right more often than not. I've seen several crosses, and they're generally not as colorful and are much more "boring" than the originals.


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

i think we should mix Pum DNA with t-rex dna to make mini t-rexs :wink:


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

I don't think hybridization usually results in sterile individuals, but it totally depends on what you are mixing. There are a lot of hybrid plants that are completely fertile, and may even express hybrid vigor. All of that aside, mixing "morphs" is just irresponsible in this hobby (at least in my opinion). Different morphs are most likely from different, and usually isolated, geographic areas so they wouldn't interbreed in the wild. So why should we do this with our frogs? To get some sort of mutt... isn't there enough variety already available with the selection of frogs currently in the hobby? I would say yes.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

jbeetle said:


> I don't think hybridization usually results in sterile individuals, but it totally depends on what you are mixing. There are a lot of hybrid plants that are completely fertile, and may even express hybrid vigor. All of that aside, mixing "morphs" is just irresponsible in this hobby (at least in my opinion). Different morphs are most likely from different, and usually isolated, geographic areas so they wouldn't interbreed in the wild. So why should we do this with our frogs? To get some sort of mutt... isn't there enough variety already available with the selection of frogs currently in the hobby? I would say yes.


Couldn't agree more. 1: its irresponsible and selfish. 2: There are so many amazing looking frogs, and no need to interbreed.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

We aren't talking about plants here, but it is correct to say that hybridizm is very very common in plants and results in fertile individuals, but plants and animals act very different. The only animal hybrids I can think of that are fertile are certain snakes. Other than that 99% of them are sterile, or at least male sterile.



MonarchzMan said:


> Another point to be made is that nature gets things right more often than not. I've seen several crosses, and they're generally not as colorful and are much more "boring" than the originals.


This is the type of answer I was looking for. But since this thread has massively deviated away from that i will elaborate. I would also be interested in pictures of cross morphs, or links to such. I have not seen any. Perhaps I should also state that I find hybrids absolutely fascinating!!!

I have tried the search feature with very limited success. Wasted a good hour with it.

I hope you aren't getting me all wrong here. I am all for conserving the genetic makeup of animals, especially those that are going to be extinct in the wild within the next 20 years, but animals in captivity that are kept as pets are exactly that, pets. Conserving the genetic makup of pets is of very little importance. This should be left to zoos and those with the proper education and not to those in the herpetoculture industry. Period. There are already many scientists that have established captive breeding programs for these animals when they vanish from the wild.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

"Pairs from different "morphs" will produce like colored frogs."
From a sticky thread in the classifieds section. Based on the types of frogs they offer, Im assuming this individual knows what they are talking about.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

Those frogs (Golddust Bastimentos pumilio) are from a variable population of frogs, so simply pairing them off by color doesn't mean they will produce froglets that are the same as the adults. They are the same morph, are from a large population of mixed colors, and are all located in the same area so freely breed in the wild. This is very different then taking different morphs from different locations and mixing them (like trying to breed Bastimentos pumlio with pumilio from Colon or Shepard). So I don't think this supports your desires of mixing morphs, if that is what you hoped for.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Jer said:


> We aren't talking about plants here, but it is correct to say that hybridizm is very very common in plants and results in fertile individuals, but plants and animals act very different. The only animal hybrids I can think of that are fertile are certain snakes. Other than that 99% of them are sterile, or at least male sterile.


I don't know where the 99% comes from. Although hybridization often produces sterile offspring, there are many, many examples of fertile hybrids. Many species of cichlids, Equus prjewalskii x E. caballus, polar bear x grizzly bear, Rainbow trout x cutthroat trout, cattle x bison, wolf x jackal x dog x coyote, spotted owl x barred owl, just to name a few off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure there have been fertile hybrid darts produced but can't remember the source of the info. Wikipedia has a nice discussion about hybrids, including why it is perfectly appropriate to call a cross between different dart from populations or "morphs" a hybrid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)

Given the close evolutionary relationships of many pdf species, we should suspect that a great number of interspecific hybrids would be fertile.


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

i love how everyone assumes that just because they are in the wild that they dont hybrid themselves in the wild... considering the "populations" are only miles apart, you dont think they interbreed and hybridize in the wild? look at all the cobalts and various types of tincs that unless you knew exactly what it was could look EXACTLY like a different morph. Do you really think that frogs dont hybridize in the wild? common folks... lets take a nice quote from malcom...."nature finds a way" Im all for keeping healthy established populations... but thats for the pros.. not the joes... you honestly would rely on the joes for the salvation of the frogs once they are extinct in wild? IF people are keeping the frogs as pets their intentions are not to save them from the wild.....if people want to do what they want with their frogs its their choice... respect that, instead of bashing them for even mentioning about it. You guys make it out to be the highest crime you can commit in the frog world? i say an even bigger crime then hybridizing is the freakin importers that kill 80% of them when they illegally import them... you should be more concerned with that instead of what a couple people want to hybridize to see what frog comes out.. if you buy a frog and dont do ur research ahead of time its your fault for buying a hybrid and not knowing...a seller could be lying to you anyway saying its not a hybrid and true and you buy it, and you would never know the difference, now would you. i will end my rant by saying be respectful of other peoples viewpoints and objectvies within the hobby... some want to breed, some want to just keep them to keep them, some want to sell them, and some want to hybridize them...as long as the PROS are keeping the lines i dont really find a point in the JOES trying to.. they wount be selling as many or keeping as many frogs anyway.. and you PROS wount be buying from them anyway...so before you go bashing on other peoples ideas or goals within the hobby, think a lil...


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

jbeetle said:


> Those frogs (Golddust Bastimentos pumilio) are from a variable population of frogs, so simply pairing them off by color doesn't mean they will produce froglets that are the same as the adults. They are the same morph, are from a large population of mixed colors, and are all located in the same area so freely breed in the wild. This is very different then taking different morphs from different locations and mixing them (like trying to breed Bastimentos pumlio with pumilio from Colon or Shepard). So I don't think this supports your desires of mixing morphs, if that is what you hoped for.


Thanks for the information. I did not know that.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

No problem.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

bbrock said:


> I don't know where the 99% comes from. Although hybridization often produces sterile offspring, there are many, many examples of fertile hybrids. Many species of cichlids, Equus prjewalskii x E. caballus, polar bear x grizzly bear, Rainbow trout x cutthroat trout, cattle x bison, wolf x jackal x dog x coyote, spotted owl x barred owl


The 99% came from one of my high school biology books. I have also read 96% and 90% by different authors. I was just generalizing, not saying that exactly 99% are sterile, I was trying to get across the point that the vast majority are sterile.

Sorry but a hybrid between rainbow trout and cutthroat trout are triploid and NOT fertile. Equus prjewalskii x E. caballus are MALE STERILE, and possible both sexes are sterile. No one knows if the hybrid between a grizzly and a polar bear are fertile or not, but it is suspected that they are at least male sterile, I believe only one was ever known to have existed. Im not sure about the owls but I suspect they too are sterile, unless you can link me to proof that they are not. And alot of geneticists are now classifying dogs, coyotes, and wolves as all one species because they can interbreed and produce fertile offspring with no problems (this is the definition of a species), therefore they are not relevant. But you are correct in that some cichlid hybrids are fertile. This explains their huge species diversity.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

_In response to DF20’s post, as I don’t feel like quoting it and making my post even longer._

Well, I guess you are right. I didn’t think before I posted, my bad… hybrids are good, no great. Go ahead and breed away. And I guess I was being too mean by stating my opinion on breeding hybrids. I wasn’t really trying to “bash” anyone, but I personally don’t think hybrids add anything to the hobby.

Of course some hybridization can occur in the wild and does, but I would say that it is usually to a very low degree. These populations can be miles apart, yards apart, or just a stream apart and still they could never hybridize. Just because you can easily make your way from population to population doesn’t mean they can or will. Just because there are several disconnected populations of a recognized species doesn’t mean they should automatically be bred with each other, as evolution has a funny way of never stopping. So what appears to be the same animal may genetically be moving towards its own subspecies or even a new species. Isolation of species does tend to lead to speciation. Someone with a higher degree of scientific understanding than I can feel free to correct anything that I have incorrectly stated.

As for the problems with importers, of course I’d prefer a higher survivability rate in the import process and I think this has happened with the more recent imports. Where are you getting the 80% mortality rate from, or are you guessing? I don’t think this is really true, but could be wrong since I’m not the one opening the boxes. I also find it funny that you mention this and then in your signature it appears that you own some of the lucky 20% to survive through the importation process (isn’t that a little hypocritical?). 

Lastly, Pros VS Joes… who is who and what determines this (or whom determines this)? I don’t consider myself an expert, but I have been around for some time and have bred my share of frogs so think I have an ok understanding of this hobby. There are some hybrids that would fool the best of us and then there are others that wouldn’t, what is your point here? If we can’t tell the difference then what does it matter? I would say this just goes to support my opinion that people shouldn’t breed hybrids. Also, I don’t see how being a Joe means you should be encouraged to breed hybrids. And if I’m not mistaken, part of TWI’s purpose is to get Joes working with Pros in hopes of saving species. So yes, even Joe breeding his overly common beginner frog could potentially have some say in species future however unlikely it is (even if it does only remain in captivity).


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

DF20 said:


> i love how everyone assumes that just because they are in the wild that they dont hybrid themselves in the wild... considering the "populations" are only miles apart, you dont think they interbreed and hybridize in the wild? look at all the cobalts and various types of tincs that unless you knew exactly what it was could look EXACTLY like a different morph. Do you really think that frogs dont hybridize in the wild? common folks... lets take a nice quote from malcom...."nature finds a way" Im all for keeping healthy established populations... but thats for the pros.. not the joes... you honestly would rely on the joes for the salvation of the frogs once they are extinct in wild? IF people are keeping the frogs as pets their intentions are not to save them from the wild.....if people want to do what they want with their frogs its their choice... respect that, instead of bashing them for even mentioning about it. You guys make it out to be the highest crime you can commit in the frog world? i say an even bigger crime then hybridizing is the freakin importers that kill 80% of them when they illegally import them... you should be more concerned with that instead of what a couple people want to hybridize to see what frog comes out.. if you buy a frog and dont do ur research ahead of time its your fault for buying a hybrid and not knowing...a seller could be lying to you anyway saying its not a hybrid and true and you buy it, and you would never know the difference, now would you. i will end my rant by saying be respectful of other peoples viewpoints and objectvies within the hobby... some want to breed, some want to just keep them to keep them, some want to sell them, and some want to hybridize them...as long as the PROS are keeping the lines i dont really find a point in the JOES trying to.. they wount be selling as many or keeping as many frogs anyway.. and you PROS wount be buying from them anyway...so before you go bashing on other peoples ideas or goals within the hobby, think a lil...


DF20 speaks nothing but the truth.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

jbeetle said:


> _In response to DF20’s post, as I don’t feel like quoting it and making my post even longer._
> 
> 
> As for the problems with importers, of course I’d prefer a higher survivability rate in the import process and I think this has happened with the more recent imports. Where are you getting the 80% mortality rate from, or are you guessing? I don’t think this is really true, but could be wrong since I’m not the one opening the boxes. I also find it funny that you mention this and then in your signature it appears that you own some of the lucky 20% to survive through the importation process (isn’t that a little hypocritical?).
> ...


If I were to guess, I would say a 60% mortality rate, and I feel this is an undershoot. And I do not find his signature hypocritical. It is simply fact that many of the exotic animals in the industry are the lucky 20% (40% based on my guess) that survived. They should have all been left to live in the wild!

You are a "PRO" if you have a PhD, and a "JOE" if you do not. Plain and simple. Of course a "JOE" can be more "skilled", I have seen the show, but this doesn't make them a "PRO".


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

Well, I guess some of the more respected people in the hobby are just good old Joes, but I think I would follow their advice over some Pros. BTW - I wasn't trying to imply that I'm a Pro in my last post, just to clarify.

I don't think they should all be left in the wild, ever hear of a little something called Chytrid? If not, look it up. But if he is really worried about them dying in transit, or due to transit, then I would think it would be a better option to get CB non-imported frogs.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> respect that, instead of bashing them for even mentioning about it.


Bash them? HA! You haven't seen bashing. 



> i will end my rant by saying be respectful of other peoples viewpoints and objectvies within the hobby...


When people like you learn to be respectful of the the way this hobby operates, we'll return the favor. Until then, I'll continue to redirect people like you to stickies and the search feature.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

like telling the AKC to allow mutts.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

jbeetle said:


> Well, I guess some of the more respected people in the hobby are just good old Joes, but I think I would follow their advice over some Pros. BTW - I wasn't trying to imply that I'm a Pro in my last post, just to clarify.


I completely agree with you that there are many hobbyists that know much more than those with PhD's, and you well might be one of them!


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

defaced said:


> > respect that, instead of bashing them for even mentioning about it.
> 
> 
> Bash them? HA! You haven't seen bashing.
> ...


When people like you learn to be respectful of the the way this hobby operates, we'll return the favor. Until then, I'll continue to redirect people like you to stickies and the search feature.[/quote:27taon2u]
Directing people to the search function is like directing someone wanting to get their car fixed to a fast food restaurant. It just doesn't work.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

?...


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

Lol. Ok.

If someone goes to a fast food restaurant looking to get their car fixed, they are left hopeless as a restaurant can't help them find what they are looking for.

If someone uses the search function to look for something, they too are left hopeless as the search function won't help them find what they are looking for.
ie. The search function is garbage.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The search function works fine; I use very regularly. There is a link in the sticky in this section to the thread that describes how to make it do what you want it to do.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

Perhaps it was a bad analogy lol.

And I guess it depends what you are searching for. I have now seen that it can work ok, but have also seen that it can not work at all.


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

i guess i was misunderstood, illegally importing... im pretty sure mine were part of the legal 2007 imports. In essence everyone is a hypocrit then cuz they were all imported at one time... legally or illegally...you know who the pros are, guys/girls who have been breeding frogs and taking care of them for a long time, and who have crazy big collections and also small collections.. my point is... you can't tell people what to do with their property... im pretty sure MOST people did not get into PDFs on the sole basis of being their salvation from exctinction... thats what the pros and zoos are for. I would say the pros have a better shot at it then the zoos to be honest. So i shouldnt be in the hobby if my intentions are to preserve the lines 100%...i think not, i got into PDFs because i was amazed at the colors and blown away at the small size of the thumbnails...not because they were endangered not because its partly my job to perserve them, i like to take care of animals and design vivs, im a graphic designer... it also a different medium to work with.. designing vivs.. so am in the hobby for the wrong reasons?????? even if i wanted to hybridize them....who cares, im just one average joe im not gonna change the already established blood lines... would i hybridize??? no i dont think i could or would because i have trouble getting the eggs to froglets...and i dont think the color morphs i dream up in my head would come out that way in real life in the frogs.... come on honestly youve never been like... wow i wonder if there was a PDF that looked like a leuc but the yellow was green, or red, or blue, or white.... oops i guess thats blasphamous thinking.... i should go read some articles about how that kind of thinking will only lead to the ultamite demise of PDFS and hybrids will wipe out the entire establish population....maybe all of you should gang up on me because i for 1 second thought it would be cool to see different colors in the frogs that dont already occur in the wild... maybe im just a lil open to accept peoples reasons for why they think what they think.... a couple hybrids is not gonna change the hobby... as long as you guys stay stict the way you do... and i do agree with you about not hybridizing but i dont agree with the approach that is taken about it... i just dont see why its so important to keep it so strict... if a couple people want to hybridize let them.. they arent gonna change the world... and you know what their info they find out, may be very useful... lets say a person tries it out and finds the colors arent so great and the offspring arent as healthy as the pure lines... at least you then have supporting evidence to help your claim.... 
a perfect example would be white tigers... they are genetic defects and are bred soly for personal use.. such as circus performers and what not... most people think they are common and seperate morph from standard tigers... thing is they are really health problematic and selectively breeding them is a bad thing... 

and i do recall the one person saying they had bad outcomes with the patterns or colors... so have a lil thread with photos of hybrids showing people and showing how natures morphs got it right and our man made efforts dont even compare... if people know what kinds of results come from hybridizing then they wount be as mistified by oooo i wonder if i put this with this....what would happen...

people are just *curious* thats all... there are a ton of morphs and a ton of patterns and colors.... its like pokemon... "gotta catch um all".


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

DF20 said:


> i love how everyone assumes that just because they are in the wild that they dont hybrid themselves in the wild... considering the "populations" are only miles apart, you dont think they interbreed and hybridize in the wild? look at all the cobalts and various types of tincs that unless you knew exactly what it was could look EXACTLY like a different morph. Do you really think that frogs dont hybridize in the wild? common folks... lets take a nice quote from malcom...."nature finds a way" Im all for keeping healthy established populations... but thats for the pros.. not the joes... you honestly would rely on the joes for the salvation of the frogs once they are extinct in wild? IF people are keeping the frogs as pets their intentions are not to save them from the wild.....if people want to do what they want with their frogs its their choice... respect that, instead of bashing them for even mentioning about it. You guys make it out to be the highest crime you can commit in the frog world? i say an even bigger crime then hybridizing is the freakin importers that kill 80% of them when they illegally import them... you should be more concerned with that instead of what a couple people want to hybridize to see what frog comes out.. if you buy a frog and dont do ur research ahead of time its your fault for buying a hybrid and not knowing...a seller could be lying to you anyway saying its not a hybrid and true and you buy it, and you would never know the difference, now would you. i will end my rant by saying be respectful of other peoples viewpoints and objectvies within the hobby... some want to breed, some want to just keep them to keep them, some want to sell them, and some want to hybridize them...as long as the PROS are keeping the lines i dont really find a point in the JOES trying to.. they wount be selling as many or keeping as many frogs anyway.. and you PROS wount be buying from them anyway...so before you go bashing on other peoples ideas or goals within the hobby, think a lil...


Just something for you to think about. Aguacate/Darklands/Cauchero frogs are only a couple miles away from Almirante/Man Creek frogs. I took a 20 minute boat ride from one spot to the next. There is continuous land between the two morphs. Now, if they ARE hybridizing as you suggest, why are there two morphs? Were they hybridizing, you'd see integrades throughout the range, but instead you see distinct morphs.

Just because they are close, doesn't mean that they are hybridizing. And then you throw the argument about island populations in there. I don't care what argument you can try to concoct, but there is no natural way at all that Isla Colons are breeding with Bastimentos.

You should familiarize yourself with TWI and ASN. The general idea is to get "Joes" working together to preserve these species. It's great if zoos are doing breeding programs (someone will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they are NOT working with all the separate morphs of these frogs), but there is even a better chance of a future for these frogs if we ALL work together to keep them going. It's not as hard as you'd think to unite people for the conservation of these frogs.

And educational background shouldn't dictate Pro vs. Joe. When I went to Panama this past summer, I was teaching the heads of our dart frog research project about dart frogs and their biology. Both of which have PhDs.

I'm not going to address the importation stuff because this thread is about hybridizing.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> you can't tell people what to do with their property...


I don't believe anyone has. The question was posed, and we answered. You can do whatever you want with your frogs, but understand that the hobby will respond. I've seen people turned away from tables because the seller knew their intentions. 



> hats what the pros and zoos are for.


The most emaciated Azureus I have ever seen was at the Columbus Zoo. Zoos have their place, and we have ours, and TWI and the ASN is working to bridge that gap. If we as a hobby don't show that we're responsible with the management of our collections, that gap will stay there and the efforts we're working will be junk. I keep reading that hobbyists aren't going to help preserve these animals; that is absolutely wrong.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

> wow i wonder if there was a PDF that looked like a leuc but the yellow was green, or red, or blue, or white.... oops i guess thats blasphamous thinking....


That's the thing. There are. Check out some of the morphs of D. lehmanni. They're rather similar to D. leucomelas. That's the thing with dendrobatids. There are over 200 species with most having multiple morphs, and just about all patterns and colors found in dendrobatids can be found in multiple species.


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

i think your assuming a little to much, some people are in the hobby just to enjoy a couple frogs and take care of them and watch them eat and hop around. Sorry but im not in this hobby to perserve them from exctinction... im in it because i like the frogs colors and personalities... i know eventually like ALL pets they will die....im not interested in joing organizations... i just want to design vivs, take care of my frogs, and if they have babies... grow them up.. as simple as that... i dont want a huge collection that ensures the survival of pdfs... nor do i have the time to do that kind of stuff... just because im a joe and own a couple of pdfs doesnt mean i have to have the same mindset or goals within the hobby as you do.

say i own a pingpong paddle... and a table... does that mean i have to join a organization and make sure i play with only a specific type of ball and paddle and my goal for pingpong because i own a paddle and table should be to perserve the sanctaty of the sport for future generations...

no, i just like to play for fun... and its a hobby... i dont have to nor want to be hardcore about it.... assuming i should is stupid on your part.... and assuming my goals within pdfs are the same as yours or SHOULD be the same as yours is stupid..we all have our own reasons for collecting PDFs.....respect peoples descisions and viewpoints


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

DF20 said:


> i guess i was misunderstood, illegally importing... im pretty sure mine were part of the legal 2007 imports. In essence everyone is a hypocrit then cuz they were all imported at one time... legally or illegally...you know who the pros are, guys/girls who have been breeding frogs and taking care of them for a long time, and who have crazy big collections and also small collections.. my point is... you can't tell people what to do with their property... im pretty sure MOST people did not get into PDFs on the sole basis of being their salvation from exctinction... thats what the pros and zoos are for. I would say the pros have a better shot at it then the zoos to be honest. So i shouldnt be in the hobby if my intentions are to preserve the lines 100%...i think not, i got into PDFs because i was amazed at the colors and blown away at the small size of the thumbnails...not because they were endangered not because its partly my job to perserve them, i like to take care of animals and design vivs, im a graphic designer... it also a different medium to work with.. designing vivs.. so am in the hobby for the wrong reasons?????? even if i wanted to hybridize them....who cares, im just one average joe im not gonna change the already established blood lines... would i hybridize??? no i dont think i could or would because i have trouble getting the eggs to froglets...and i dont think the color morphs i dream up in my head would come out that way in real life in the frogs.... come on honestly youve never been like... wow i wonder if there was a PDF that looked like a leuc but the yellow was green, or red, or blue, or white.... oops i guess thats blasphamous thinking.... i should go read some articles about how that kind of thinking will only lead to the ultamite demise of PDFS and hybrids will wipe out the entire establish population....maybe all of you should gang up on me because i for 1 second thought it would be cool to see different colors in the frogs that dont already occur in the wild... maybe im just a lil open to accept peoples reasons for why they think what they think.... a couple hybrids is not gonna change the hobby... as long as you guys stay stict the way you do... and i do agree with you about not hybridizing but i dont agree with the approach that is taken about it... i just dont see why its so important to keep it so strict... if a couple people want to hybridize let them.. they arent gonna change the world... and you know what their info they find out, may be very useful... lets say a person tries it out and finds the colors arent so great and the offspring arent as healthy as the pure lines... at least you then have supporting evidence to help your claim....
> a perfect example would be white tigers... they are genetic defects and are bred soly for personal use.. such as circus performers and what not... most people think they are common and seperate morph from standard tigers... thing is they are really health problematic and selectively breeding them is a bad thing...
> 
> and i do recall the one person saying they had bad outcomes with the patterns or colors... so have a lil thread with photos of hybrids showing people and showing how natures morphs got it right and our man made efforts dont even compare... if people know what kinds of results come from hybridizing then they wount be as mistified by oooo i wonder if i put this with this....what would happen...
> ...


Hi DF20,
Do you mind me asking, from whom did you purchase your Cayo de Aquas?
Thanks,
Rich


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

I am sorry if I missed the legal vs illegal shipment comment. I would agree that yours are probably from the legal imports, which is fine. Illegal shipments are bad, and not just because of the high mortality rate but that is another topic.

Size of one’s collection is a poor way to determine how “good” of a frogger you are, as I’ve seen lots of people come into the hobby and quickly acquire large collections only to burn out a year later or so. Just because one has deep pockets doesn’t mean they are better at breeding or keeping anything. 

You are probably correct, most people don’t get into darts to save them but I think a lot of them have some interest in that aspect of the hobby. I can’t, or no one can, force anyone to not bred hybrids but it can be strongly discouraged. The fact that the hobby as a whole is generally against hybridization, and strongly so, does have an effect on the hobby as a whole. I think this is why we don’t see hybrids around. There are a lot of people that ask this question, so I guess it is a common thing to consider. This makes sense since a lot of people come from keeping other herps, and in most cases it is ok or even encouraged to breed hybrids. The fact that the majority of the hobby says no to this is probably what has made this hobby different then other herps hobbies. So it is perfectly acceptable for us to let new comers know this is frowned upon, other wise I do think we would see our frogs slip into the ugly mess that is so prevalent in other herp hobbies. 

As for your tiger example, that is different then hybrids. It is still a tiger, just a genetic defect like you said. So that is more akin to albinos, which is a whole other topic. It isn’t mixing two different species or isolated populations. It is just a natural variation within a species that is then line bred (which also isn’t a good thing in my opinion). So, should we not educate people about the difference between these things and avoid line breeding (can lead to other problems like you mentioned in the tiger example) as well as hybridization or just let it go until it does become a huge problem. I think there is an example of a certain snake that was bred into so many different lines and hybrids that eventually it was very hard to find a wild type specimen in captivity, so it is possible to lose what most of use view as the correct form (wild type) of the species we keep. 

Wondering about different varieties isn’t a bad thing, but actually going out and making hybrids is in my opinion. Once again I would ask why do you need to make hybrids, as there are already a ton to choose from.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

You don't understand. You don't need 80 frogs of a particular morph to be able to contribute. You don't even need a pair. The whole idea behind TWI and ASN is to gather information more so than breeding and keeping track of lines. Yes, that's important, but even more important is to know the basic biology of these frogs. Know what works and what doesn't work. Now, I don't know about you, but I see that being a GREAT benefit to all in the hobby.

Personally, I'm rather disappointed that someone could be so uninterested in the survival of their pets. I enjoy and am fascinated by my frogs, which makes me want to ensure their survival all the more.


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

Rich- 

I got them at the Hamburg Pa Show. A guy named Troy. Sorry im a Joe and didnt ask a bazillion questions about them prior to purchasing them... tho i did do enough reseach to understand how to take care of them and what they were and a couple questions to ask.. if they were WC or CB. He said 2007 imports he had them for a while and they were treated for parasites.. but reading your stuff... im sure they do have parasites anyway...i dont expect to make a lot of money if the tadpoles become froglets... shoot im prob just going to keep them anyway because i really enjoy watching them... more frogs i get to watch instead of paying for them... why do you ask where i got them?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Just a quick suggestion guys.
Whenever I suspect a long detailed post may be a huge waste of my personal time, I go to the member's 'profile' and read as many previous posts as it takes to get a 'read' on that member. This tactic has worked well for me through the years . 
Food for thought.


Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

DF20 said:


> Rich-
> 
> I got them at the Hamburg Pa Show. A guy named Troy. Sorry im a Joe and didnt ask a bazillion questions about them prior to purchasing them... tho i did do enough reseach to understand how to take care of them and what they were and a couple questions to ask.. if they were WC or CB. He said 2007 imports he had them for a while and they were treated for parasites.. but reading your stuff... im sure they do have parasites anyway...i dont expect to make a lot of money if the tadpoles become froglets... shoot im prob just going to keep them anyway because i really enjoy watching them... more frogs i get to watch instead of paying for them... why do you ask where i got them?


Thanks DF20,
Just curiousity.
Rich


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

MonarchzMan -

Its not that im not interested in the survival of my own pets, if i wasnt i wouldnt feed them and let them die... i wuldnt be in the hobby to begin with, but im sorry the 6 frogs i own are not going to make or break the salvation of the frogs frome exctinction...there are a ton of other people who are breeding the same morphs i have and doing well and thats what will ensure their survival...i actually do take great care of my frogs... but i do realize the frogs i own will one day die... and theres nothing i can do....it would be great if i can have them breed successfully and raise up the offspring... but only time will tell... untill then i can only hope that happens... maybe one day il come out with a post saying i have a colony of 500 cayo de aguas....and i am the sole savior of cayo de aguas... im a frog super hero... sound good to you?


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> Personally, I'm rather disappointed that someone could be so uninterested in the survival of their pets. I enjoy and am fascinated by my frogs, which makes me want to ensure their survival all the more.


Kind of a random and impertinent comment. Don't you think?


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

> Just a quick suggestion guys.
> Whenever I suspect a long detailed post may be a huge waste of my personal time, I go to the member's 'profile' and read as many previous posts as it takes to get a 'read' on that member. This tactic has worked well for me through the years .
> Food for thought.
> 
> ...


Are you implying that my posts are a waste of your time rich?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

DF20, you're apparently not understanding my meaning. I have no doubt that you care for your frogs, but I'm talking about the survival of your morph as a whole. I greatly enjoy my leucomelas, which motivates me even more to conserve and protect them to that others may enjoy them in the future. 

I'd also suggest conducting a poll of people who A. have Cayo de Aguas and B. have successfully bred them. I think you'll be really surprised at the results.



Jer said:


> MonarchzMan said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I'm rather disappointed that someone could be so uninterested in the survival of their pets. I enjoy and am fascinated by my frogs, which makes me want to ensure their survival all the more.
> ...


No, not at all. DF20 has shown indifference to have his morph survive or not, and that is disappointing. I would have hoped that observing frogs would motivate a person to want to at least try to protect the ones they're working with. And part of that is maintaining the genetic diversity within the species.

I guess, if nothing else, this would make me a more selective seller to make sure that my frogs don't go to a person who doesn't have their best interest at heart. Especially if in the future I'm going to import for conservation purposes.

Thanks for the suggestion Rich. I might have to start doing that. Unfortunately, I'm too stubborn to simply pass on something like this.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

DF20 said:


> > Just a quick suggestion guys.
> > Whenever I suspect a long detailed post may be a huge waste of my personal time, I go to the member's 'profile' and read as many previous posts as it takes to get a 'read' on that member. This tactic has worked well for me through the years .
> > Food for thought.
> >
> ...


Not your posts at all DF20. Please post away.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

MonarchzMan said:


> Thanks for the suggestion Rich. I might have to start doing that. Unfortunately, I'm too stubborn to simply pass on something like this.


No problem at all JP. I feel the need because you never know when you may be 'talking to' someone who has limited processing ability and you really need to read more than just one or two posts to get that 'read'. 
I also look at things like time of night and such when considering what to post , to whom, and how lengthy and in-depth my retort will be.

Rich


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> No, not at all. DF20 has shown indifference to have his morph survive or not, and that is disappointing. I would have hoped that observing frogs would motivate a person to want to at least try to protect the ones they're working with. And part of that is maintaining the genetic diversity within the species.


The reality of the situation is that a morph already established in herpetoculture will not disappear due to a few "unethical" breedings by those who wish to breed cross morphs. There will always be those who breed for purity, and there will always be those who like to experiment and produce hybrids. That's just how it is, and that's how it always will be.

This thread got out of control. I was simply only looking for information and or pictures of cross morphs out of curiosity.


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## Malaki33 (Dec 21, 2007)

*sometimes we need to read before we post*

Jer,

I understand what you are trying to do, however If you look down the line of the hundreds of posts on this subject you would see that this would definatly cause alot of strong feelings. The majority of the hobbyists here feel very strongly about cross breeding, as am I, my suggestion for the future is to look around at some of the other posts and find those with your interests and talk to them directly on the subject. This will avoid alot of discontent. Now If I may I would like to share with you my view of the whle thing I am going to do it in a different way and I am going to relate it to dogs because I think I can make my point best that way.

anyone know what the most popular breed of small dog is today? To answer it is the pomeranian and it is this breed that I will use. Back many years ago the average show size pomeranian was around 7 pounds, the noses were long and they were a very very healthy breed. Throughout the years due to (conformation) people liked them smaller around 5 pounds with short "cute" noses. So whats the problem? Well what happend is they ended up making dogs whose lifespan lessend by 3 years and have many more genetic problems and have become more sickly throughout the years. I know I am talking dogs not frogs but the concept is the same. These animals were created by "god" the "big bang" Allah or whom or whatever you want to believe. they were made this way for a reason and most of us believe that this should not be toy'd with. This is just my 2 cents.....at any rate good luck

Mitch


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> This thread got out of control. I was simply only looking for information and or pictures of cross morphs out of curiosity.


Now you understand why my first post was very short, sweet, and to the point. This happens every time this topic is brought up.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

This forum is just simply not the place to argue hybrids. The vast majority of members are morally opposed to it, so I think it is prudent to respect that. As Mike has pointed out, the search feature has many detailed threads on this, including a few with links or pictures of (ugly) hybrids.

As a side note, I general do not give much credibility to posts that use Jurasic Park as their back-up, ha ha.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Ok, I will bite. I would note however that I understand before posting a reply the impending threat of a wall of text coming my way in the near future.

In response to those of you interested in hybridization for the purposes often seen in other herp hobbies I would caution you, at the very least, to make one small concession. In the leopard gecko hobby (just one of countless examples) their is a significant monetary impetus to hybridize driven by the fact that the "wild" population does not demonstrate any significant variation. If you are willing to concede any monetary aims and your hybridization efforts are purely for "curiosity" or "self entertainment" by all means have at it in a responsible way. It dies with your collection.

This thread has seen several arguments by proponents that I think the community as a whole can benefit from thinking about a bit further. Not having a significant enough population of CdeA's to "be the salvation" is a short sighted view of animal husbandry. In any population that is threatened or in outright decline the value of every reproductive individual becomes paramount. From one poster's signature I see two viable pairs of reproductive individuals. If properly cared for the individuals can replace themselves (at the very least) or add to a limited population at an exponential rate with each successive generation. 

In this case hybridization is analogous to both the "careless importers" and irresponsible froggers alike considering in both cases the total reproductive population base is hindered. Despite your best arguments to the contrary, the pure act of ownership of any threatened flora or fauna carries with it an ethical obligation to preserve and promote. Hybridization is purely for exploitation. I hate to even suggest it but let us face the reality that every one of us potentially holds the last pdf. One outbreak of a new fungal ailment or one poor ecological decision by amazon basin countries could yield total losses. Your "curiosity" only gets us that much closer, in no dramatic way, but in a certainly relevant one.

I have always felt, as I think many in our community do, that our hobby has two fold purpose beyond the pleasure of our husbandry of these animals. Captive breeding communities, like ours, strive to become self sufficient to eliminate the inherent instability of importation programs. Secondly, in a disaster scenario (condors, gorillas, panda bears), captive breeding programs strive to generate viable reproductive adults to seed new wild populations. Hybridization only makes our aims that much harder to achieve and sustain. I would suggest seeking out a herp with a non diverse, stable wild population if you lack the discipline to curb your curiosity.

In closing, I understand the irony/hypocrisy of my above "wall of text" reference. This topic merits it.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Jer said:


> Sorry but a hybrid between rainbow trout and cutthroat trout are triploid and NOT fertile.


Sorry, but you are mistaken. Many native populations of cutthroat trout have been lost due to hybridization. Currently, cutthroat populations in many areas are scored based on percent genetic purity that runs on a conitnuous scale with 90%+ purity considered the target in many cases. This would not be possible if the hybrids were sterile because all hybrids would be the result of an F1 cross and thus 50% hybrid.

http://www.greateryellowstone.org/issue ... hreatID=17

http://fwp.mt.gov/news/article_5528.aspx

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/ODFWhtml/Res ... PTER4.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/636220ghw152xgg6/

http://fwp.mt.gov/news/article_5528.aspx

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-IMPACT/ ... i11010.htm

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ... alCode=jfb



> Equus prjewalskii x E. caballus are MALE STERILE, and possible both sexes are sterile.


This may be true. But male sterility is pretty irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The point is that the idea that hybridized frogs are a genetic dead end so we shouldn't worry about them is not justified.



> No one knows if the hybrid between a grizzly and a polar bear are fertile or not, but it is suspected that they are at least male sterile, I believe only one was ever known to have existed.


There have been field observations of suspected hybrids but only one DNA sample from a confirmed hybrid. I had not seen anything to indicate that male sterility is expected but, again, for the purposes of this argument, I don't see it as particularly relevent.



> Im not sure about the owls but I suspect they too are sterile, unless you can link me to proof that they are not.


Here are just a couple but I could provide more. Although it does appear there are breeding barriers to at least somewhat limit hybridization between the species, it is clear that hybrid owls can be back-crossed with either parental species.

http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request ... -8038(2004)121%5B0806%3ARROHBB%5D2.0.CO%3B2&ct=1

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-97235872.html



> And alot of geneticists are now classifying dogs, coyotes, and wolves as all one species because they can interbreed and produce fertile offspring with no problems (this is the definition of a species), therefore they are not relevant.


I would not say a "lot" are. The genetic similarities have been noted and questions about speciation have arrisen. At one point, there was an attempt to classify the dog as a subspecies of wolf but it did not gain wide acceptance although I haven't followed that literature for a few years. But to say that production of fertile offspring is "the" definition of a species is incorrect. It is one of many criteria used to determine species lines and has become an increasingly less used criteria as molecular techniques have come to domininate taxonomy. I'm not saying I agree with it, but it is the reality. But even definitions of species that rely heavily on production of fertile offspring typically include the caveat of "under natural conditions". And even then, the degree of hybridization was considered so that if there was enough genetic isolation to maintain divergent genotypes, then species designations were retained.



> But you are correct in that some cichlid hybrids are fertile. This explains their huge species diversity.


The real point of my post was to counter the argument that we shouldn't worry about interspecific hybrids because the offspring are sterile and are genetic dead ends. That argument comes up almost every time this issue about hybrid frogs comes up. It simply isn't warranted. There are plenty of example of fertile hybrids in the wild to indicated that fertile hybrids in captivity could, indeed, infiltrate blood lines without careful management. In addition, modern conservation is applied at the subspecies or population level, which means that if we want ot preserve genetic integrity of animals according the their wild origins, then we need to be concerned with genetic management beyond the species level.

I realize that not everyone is interested in maintaining wild genetics of the frogs they keep. And I have no issues with that up to the point where it affects my enjoyment of the hobby. But there have been volumes and volume written about why the hobby is concerned about hybridization. We go over this again and again every couple of months. What bothers me is when people raise the hybrid question and are politely encouraged to read what has already been written, instead of reading those posts, they get mad and lash out at the hobby. The hobby didn't just come to this consensus blindly. There are many good reasons why we've come to this position. And all of these arguments have been considered before.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Jer said:


> The reality of the situation is that a morph already established in herpetoculture will not disappear due to a few "unethical" breedings by those who wish to breed cross morphs. There will always be those who breed for purity, and there will always be those who like to experiment and produce hybrids. That's just how it is, and that's how it always will be.


Pumilio are very popular, as are other species, but I don't know if I would call them "established." There have been numerous threads about people's success (or lack there of) in breeding them, and it still seems like there's difficulty. Take Solartes for example. You don't see many F2s or F3s, if any. They're easy to breed, but getting them to adulthood is a different story.

I wouldn't immediately assume that because they're here, they're established.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

As always Brent, we are of similar mind. I only posted because you were consipicuously absent from this thread. :wink:


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> Its not that im not interested in the survival of my own pets, if i wasnt i wouldnt feed them and let them die... i wuldnt be in the hobby to begin with, but im sorry the 6 frogs i own are not going to make or break the salvation of the frogs frome exctinction...there are a ton of other people who are breeding the same morphs i have and doing well and thats what will ensure their survival...i actually do take great care of my frogs... but i do realize the frogs i own will one day die... and theres nothing i can do....it would be great if i can have them breed successfully and raise up the offspring... but only time will tell... untill then i can only hope that happens... maybe one day il come out with a post saying i have a colony of 500 cayo de aguas....and i am the sole savior of cayo de aguas... im a frog super hero... sound good to you?


I suggest getting a few offspring out. It would be a shame for you to have a distinct bloodline of cda`s breeding and not get the offdpring out to someone who will manage them. truth being no one knows how long any one of us will be in the hobby. If only 3 of us get a pair each of cda`s breeding and something happens to our line, be it disease, act of nature or act of God, that`s not enough. I`ll do this till I die and so will a llot of the rest of us but altogether it still may not be enough to keep all these seperate morphs, species, populations around.
As for natural intergrades your seeing a shot in time of the populations range. My cauchero all come out of the water w/ red backs and turn purple/blue. They may not be as far removed as you think. There is much more diversity in single populations let alone saying the 2 populations don`t ever interbreed or didn`t diverge in the last 1000 years that are that close together. Let to go thru another cycle the area in between the 2 pops may become habitable by pumilio and they may grade back into one population.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

swampfoxjjr said:


> I have always felt, as I think many in our community do, that our hobby has two fold purpose beyond the pleasure of our husbandry of these animals. Captive breeding communities, like ours, strive to become self sufficient to eliminate the inherent instability of importation programs. Secondly, in a disaster scenario (condors, gorillas, panda bears), captive breeding programs strive to generate viable reproductive adults to seed new wild populations. Hybridization only makes our aims that much harder to achieve and sustain. I would suggest seeking out a herp with a non diverse, stable wild population if you lack the discipline to curb your curiosity.


You just summarized the dual stated goals of the Amphibian Steward Network of TWI.

Also from previous posts, to think that established lines in the hobby are safe is simply not true. Efforts like Frog Tracks and ASN were established to help correct this problem but we are far from having even a single population of captive amphibians managed as what I would call "safe". We are getting there. But security of these lines depends on getting record keeping out of the "oral history" category and into an actually database that allows for proper management of genetics. Currently the "safe-guarded" lines are typically managed by one or a few individuals doing their own thing and rarely actually employing established genetic management protocols.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Jinx, you owe me a beer!
i didn`t go into the registering them to manage but that`s a given.
If I had the time I`d be entering the rest of my pairs I`ve been slacking on.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

bbrock said:


> But there have been volumes and volume written about why the hobby is concerned about hybridization. We go over this again and again every couple of months. What bothers me is when people raise the hybrid question and are politely encouraged to read what has already been written, instead of reading those posts, they get mad and lash out at the hobby. The hobby didn't just come to this consensus blindly. There are many good reasons why we've come to this position. And all of these arguments have been considered before.


I couldn't agree more Brent. I would add that I am not only bothered by 'hybrid question raisers' who "get mad and lash out at the hobby" but any 'question raiser' taking the same tack.
Here is a post going over a few things to make it easier for beginners;
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... sc&start=0
It contains quite a few opinions on searches and how to obtain info. It helps with facts on stickies, searches, and care sheets. 
I truly belive that if the info in the thread had been utilized ,this thread and MANY, MANY others would not come up every few months, or days.
I warn that it is a long thread and should be read in full. Search tips and such are distributed through the thread .

Rich


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

*Re: sometimes we need to read before we post*



Malaki33 said:


> Jer,
> 
> I understand what you are trying to do, however If you look down the line of the hundreds of posts on this subject you would see that this would definatly cause alot of strong feelings. The majority of the hobbyists here feel very strongly about cross breeding, as am I, my suggestion for the future is to look around at some of the other posts and find those with your interests and talk to them directly on the subject. This will avoid alot of discontent. Now If I may I would like to share with you my view of the whle thing I am going to do it in a different way and I am going to relate it to dogs because I think I can make my point best that way.
> 
> ...


I could counter that with an equally irrelevent mammal scenario. How many are farmers? Not many people breed full breeds anymore, because crossbreeds are far superior in almost every aspect. Sometimes hybridization is "good" sometimes it is "bad. There are many examples on each side of the coin.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

bbrock said:


> Jer said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry but a hybrid between rainbow trout and cutthroat trout are triploid and NOT fertile.
> ...


Ah ok you are correct. That is news to me. I just assumed since I am so used to catching splake and tiger trout which are stocked STERILE triploid trout hybrids. What kind of morons are stocking triploid FERTILE fish is what I would like to know? Also, you supplied some pretty crappy links, most of which talk nothing about sterility or fertility. This one is much better:
http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/?req ... -8659(1986)6%3C367%3AEOTHTS%3E2.0.CO%3B2




bbrock said:


> But to say that production of fertile offspring is "the" definition of a species is incorrect.


There are many definitions/concepts of what a species is. The three I am most familiar with are:
1) Biological concept - species are groups of interbreeding natural populations that are reproductively isolated and produce fertile offspring
2) Genotypic cluster concept - a species is a group of individuals that has few or no intermediates
3) Phylogenetic concept - a species is a monophyletic group of common ancestry

So don't tell me that my definition of a species is incorrect. Because it is perfectly fine.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> So don't tell me that my definition of a species is incorrect. Because it is perfectly fine.


For someone who wants to learn, you are incredibly impertinent and rude. You are locking horns with some very experienced froggers and biologists, so I suggest you tread carefully and show some respect.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> > So don't tell me that my definition of a species is incorrect. Because it is perfectly fine.
> 
> 
> For someone who wants to learn, you are incredibly impertinent and rude. You are locking horns with some very experienced froggers and biologists, so I suggest you tread carefully and show some respect.


This site is absolutely amazing with the amount of information that is given and available to all of us. Speaking for myself, I learn something new or am inspired to other areas of the hobby everyday. There is enough challenge and reward in each morph to dedicate a life time to. And should point out to those of you very knowledgeable and experienced members who help a lot of "newbies" everyday: Thank you for your efforts and contribution. Some of us listen


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Aaron, I hope you don't think that I am counting myself among the 'old guard' of froggers, as I've only been working in the hobby for about 7 months and have learned heaps in that time. I just don't have much patience for defiant and disrespectful postings. But I digress...carry on


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Jer said:


> There are many definitions/concepts of what a species is. The three I am most familiar with are:
> 1) Biological concept - species are groups of interbreeding natural populations that are reproductively isolated and produce fertile offspring
> 2) Genotypic cluster concept - a species is a group of individuals that has few or no intermediates
> 3) Phylogenetic concept - a species is a monophyletic group of common ancestry
> ...


Any given species fits several of those concepts; not solely one. And your definition of a species as "being able to produce fertile offspring" is incorrect, because as you can see, there are other qualifiers to those concepts than "just being able to produce fertile offspring." If you're going by the BSC, then they have to be _naturally_ interbreeding populations, for example.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

flyangler18 said:


> > So don't tell me that my definition of a species is incorrect. Because it is perfectly fine.
> 
> 
> For someone who wants to learn, you are incredibly impertinent and rude. You are locking horns with some very experienced froggers and biologists, so I suggest you tread carefully and show some respect.


Im not rude, sorry if I am coming of that way.

As I have stated there are many different definitions of a species, and mine is definately one of them.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> Jer said:
> 
> 
> > There are many definitions/concepts of what a species is. The three I am most familiar with are:
> ...


EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Those are 3 different ways to explain what a species is, there are more.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

No, not exactly. I don't want to seem contradictory, but there's no concept that defines a species as simply being able to produce fertile offspring. There's other qualifiers. So your definition is a wrong one.


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## Ira (Jan 17, 2007)

sounds like someone is looking for the next blizzard lizard.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

copy/paste

1) Biological concept - species are groups of interbreeding natural populations that are reproductively isolated and produce fertile offspring


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Jer said:


> Another question from the new kid. Common sense would tell me that different colour morphs within a particular species can breed and produce viable offspring. Do people mix colour morphs, and if so what is the outcome?


Jer, May I ask how this ^^,
Has become this;
" What kind of morons are stocking triploid FERTILE fish is what I would like to know?"

If you really want answers, have you read the post with links I cited for you and other who have 'questions'?

Rich


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

If you don't know how "that" has become "this", then maybe you should start at the beginning of this thread, and read through all 5 pages!

Yes I did visit every link posted in this thread. None of which were specifically what I was looking for. Tried the search function, read a bunch of stickies. It seems there is very little information on morph interbreeding, or at least I have been unsuccessful in finding what i was looking for.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Jer 

To some point I have been through this before. You have to understand that the majority here hate it when the topic of mixing comes up, especially if it invovles breeding. They jump on you like flies on a dead carcass and won't give up. Good luck!

You can read my past threads


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Jer said:


> If you don't know how "that" has become "this", then maybe you should start at the beginning of this thread, and read through all 5 pages!


A rhetorical question. Point made.



Jer said:


> Yes I did visit every link posted in this thread. None of which were specifically what I was looking for. Tried the search function, read a bunch of stickies. It seems there is very little information on morph interbreeding, or at least I have been unsuccessful in finding what i was looking for.


 This thread does not have the links I referred to. 
The thread below (cited again) does.
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... sc&start=0

If , after you read that thread you have any more specific questions and can not understand what all of the people who have been in this hobby more than a few months are trying to convey to everyone else in this hobby, I am more than willing to answer (if possible) whatever questions you may have concerning 'interbreeding'.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Jer
> 
> To some point I have been through this before. You have to understand that the majority here hate it when the topic of mixing comes up, especially if it invovles breeding. They jump on you like flies on a dead carcass and won't give up. Good luck!
> 
> You can read my past threads


We don't hate it when the topic comes up. We hate it when people do things that are not healthy for their frogs. Mixing is only one of many beginner's practises that can end in premature frog deaths. 

Jer, please do read Bocomo's past posts. Some will give you insight into what we are trying to convey.


Rich


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Jer said:


> copy/paste
> 
> 1) Biological concept - species are groups of *interbreeding natural populations* that are *reproductively isolated* and produce fertile offspring


As I said, a species is not solely defined by being able to produce fertile offspring. There are qualifiers (in bold).


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

Bocomo said:


> Jer
> 
> To some point I have been through this before. You have to understand that the majority here hate it when the topic of mixing comes up, especially if it invovles breeding. They jump on you like flies on a dead carcass and won't give up. Good luck!
> 
> You can read my past threads


Tell me about it. There are way too many narrow minded individuals on this forum. Ive been getting nothing but hate mail, it's ridiculous.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

How is being against mixing and interbreeding because it leads to unhealthy frogs and destroys genetics of the animals narrow minded? Seems to me that it's the result of completely thinking through all scenarios rather than being impulsive because one "thinks it's cool."


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Its not that "we're" narrow minded, simply put, we know that hybrids and unique morphs are very popular in other areas of the herp culture, and simply due to the rare and delicate nature of the status of dart frogs, we're trying our best to keep and breed them where the population of the frogs only goes up. Its very possible that a frog that is available to the hobby/ has been imported/ and is now captive breed in captivity today, may be extinct or not available in the near future. If this does happen, we at least have good blood lines and good breeding populations to keep them in the hobby. 

Nobody here is TELLING you what to do w/ your frogs, as you well know you're property, your rights ect. BUT if you do however get a hybrid, and it looks too much like one of the parent species you _could_ sell it off to another hobbiest and it could make its way into other peoples breeding populations. 

I would say that if you're going to attempt to breed hybrids, that you do show us the results, and please do not sell them with out the information that its a hybrid w/ it? I would think that getting them (same morph) to breed would be challenging and rewarding for you and your brother. 

I would also like to say that I'm sorry for the rude impressions you may have received due to this topic, but hope you understand where many of the people here are coming from?


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

For now this thread is being locked until further notice. 
Any discussion pertaining to this thread on the board will be removed.

I suggest we all calm down and take a breather...


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