# Donations for data logger...



## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Inspired by another thread, I'm looking to do some temperature tests on shipments. 

I need $90 for the logger and about $75 for 3 USPS shipments with different boxing methods. So if I could get 25 $5 or 15 $10 donations I'd pay for the rest. I think $5 is a very reasonable value to get interesting data about shipping.

To add further incentive, at the end of it I'll raffle off the data logger. So you could be getting a $90 logger for $5!

Thanks in advance, and I hope to see this fly..

-Solly


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Count me in... just let me know how to get yout he cash.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

pm'd


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I'm in.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I'm willing to participate...
However, I do have some constructive criticisim.

I think the $ for shipping would be best spent on multiple shipments of the same packing...I propose just enough packaging to protect the logger from being damaged. This would do several things...make the test cheaper to run than sending actual mock shipments, and would give a measurement of temps the packages see while in transit.

It would be nice though, to send some mock shipments as well, as good packaging takes a good couple hours of exposure to make a difference to the inside of the packaging. Therefore, actual packaging to smooth out the bumps would be a more trustworty number.

Actually, I guess having a good number of tests both ways would be helpful.

I've already burned a good case of heatpacks testing and tweaking my packaging, and have come up with something that can give comfy inside temps in constant exposure to mid thirties temps...the same package can be brought inside while the heat pack is still cooking, and four hours later, is still in a way safe (doesnt get too hot) temp zone.

So I guess what I am wanting to see, is at what point do outside temperatures (predictable by the weather sites) translate to non-shippable weather for the exposure the packages actually see. 

Once we had a few trial runs, it wouldn't be hard or expensive to test packaging out in the elements. Test the limits of the packaging at home, and use the data from the test shipments to try to determine the go or no-go borders for various types of packing tequniques.

Also, I've had good luck for the most part with usps, but they don't overnight everywhere, and many people frown on the service, so I would say go with the most popular shipper (we all know who that is). Though it is said usps overnight is fedex, at some points it is in usps hands, so to test a service that most don't use, even though cheaper, would be making more of an estimated test, than of a test of the prefered shipper.

I'm more than willing to participate have fedex account, will ship! (don't have loggers yet though) Perhaps if someone could send a minimal packaged logger, I would be willing to send it back, in a mock shipment. (which would probably cost $45-50)

Any more ideas?


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Oz, 

Thanks. PM me for paypal info. The bigger the donation, the more likely you are to win the raffle at the end.

Brian, 

Thanks for your input. Here's my original idea, and then my reformed one: 

Originally: Three seperate packages: 1. Minimal packaging to get a sense of temps in the trucks/stations/air. 2. Styrafoam insulation with no gelpacks/heat packs to see how much it actually insulates. 3. with gel-packs/heat-packs (as I'd actually pack a frog) to see what they actually go through.

Reformed:

One package, minimally packed sent by mail to get a sense of temps. Then, testing at home using those temps (in fridge/freezer or whatever).

Advantages of original is that it'd be more accurate/realistic. But reformed would be $50-100 cheaper, depending on shipper.

-Solly


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Also, with the reformed test, the info would be more readily adapted to individual packaging tecnique.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

True enough. Now give me some money! :lol:

Looks like I'll do the "reformed" version.

-Solly


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## George B (Apr 2, 2005)

Solly look into using "I buttons" thermo loggers I think you will get a lot more bang for the buck. They are around 8 bucks each. I have a reader and software for them already if you send them to me I'll launch them and later read them. 
George


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Second the I-Button idea. You could put one in each layer that way. That is, one on the outside to give you the general temps at the stations, one in the first layer of insulation, one on the inside, etc. Those folks that have those data logger deals already (that were on that thread a while back) already have an I-Button reader I think. You could get bunch of data off one shipment that way.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/1-Wire.cfm


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Not sure what data logger you're considering, but here is a good usb one that does temperature for $59, $30 cheaper.

http://www.microdaq.com/lascar/elusb1.php

I have the temp/humidty model and like it a lot. This company is in NH and the shipping to my house was cheap. I'm also on the east coast and if you want I can receive it and ship to wherever on the west coast for the first leg of your experiment. 

I'm not sure in your plan who ultimately keeps the data logger, but since I already have one it's of no interest to me.

Let me know if I can help.

On a related note, I've begun working on tests to characterize some of the basic packaging schemes. This will eventually include some thermal chamber testing and modeling, which is pretty straight forward for an ME, but I'm still coming up to speed on the SW. The heat loss analysis of simple packaging is actually fairly easy and can be done on the back of a napkin. The temp testing will fill in the assumptions. Finding the time is my biggest issue right now. 

Later,
EricG.NH


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Great Ideas guys!

Eric,
I have some double insulated boxes and heat packs you can borrow/use for your in-situ experiments. Let me know.

The gels we would have to locate/make, although I may have some hot/cold packs that you can use left at room temp as a heat sink in the box.

Anyone have a quick gel recipe? Like the goop my kids make?  with cornstarch, is it...? Fun stuff, but I know its not the real thing. 

Shawn (also in NH)


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I'm in! Let me know where to pitch in...

Also could someone post more info on the I-Button stuff? How long do they run? Are they a 1 time use?


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

I'm in too!


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## George B (Apr 2, 2005)

Kyle the I buttons can last for several months or even a year or more and they are about the size of a watch battery. they are very accurate and can log a temperature at a range of intervals. I have everything needed to launch and read them. I use them in my research and they are very reliable. George


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

So you can pull the data of them and then use them again? I am going to read up on them... Might be interesting to watch temp changes in different tanks.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

George,

Thanks for the I-button idea. Any idea what allows these to be so much cheaper than the other loggers? Makes me kind of nervous...But still I'll definitely consider it, and thanks again.

Blort,

I like that idea of using several within a single package. Your link appears to get me to some other product, but I browsed that website and those I-buttons are very cool indeed.

Kyle, Josh, (and anyone else who wants to chip in),

PM me for a paypal address. The more you donate, the better your odds in winning the data logger.

One thing I definitely want is a humidity reader to add incentive for the prize-winner at the end. But it looks like some I-button models do that.

Thanks all for the interest, and special thanks to Stace and Kyle (Sbrelend and Kyle1745 respectively) for coming up with this experiment.

-Solly


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

wishIwereAnExpert said:


> George,
> 
> Thanks for the I-button idea. Any idea what allows these to be so much cheaper than the other loggers? Makes me kind of nervous...But still I'll definitely consider it, and thanks again.


From the looks of the I-button specs, they are ridiculously simple (1K of memory), which would allow a tremendous number of them, manufactured as a monolithic IC, to be made on a single wafer of silicon. The costs of manufacturing a wafer of printed ICs is pretty much the same no matter what you put on them, so the more you can cram onto a wafer, the cheaper they can be. And with nanometer scale manufacturing, and supremely simple designs, you can probably cram thousands of these little guys on a wafer.


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## George B (Apr 2, 2005)

Solly I think the I buttons work well. I have calibrated them with a more accurate thermometer and they (100+ now) have always been accurate. The data has been used in peer reviewed publications. They are cheap because they are small and have no display etc. I think they will fail prematurely in a very humid or wet environment. george


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

wishIwereAnExpert said:


> Thanks all for the interest, and special thanks to Stace and Kyle (Sbrelend and Kyle1745 respectively) for coming up with this experiment.
> 
> -Solly


Yeah, that was a really good idea :wink:

:evil:


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

*Brian S. said...*



> Yeah, that was a really good idea


 :lol: :lol: 

Well at least you got indirect credit on the initial post.
"inspired by another thread"

I think someone should also try a little research to see if 
overnight package temps have been measured before. 

I also think for the realistic packaging, we establish a "standard" size
and method. Continueing from our discussion on that other thread, a
12x10x8 with 1.5in poly foam insulation seemed like a good "core" package. I was also considering 1lb of water/gel. 

EricG.NH


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Well, I ordered my loggers last night, called them today, and asked them to turn one on, and ship the pkg overnight fedex, they were happy to help!

Should have results tues or wed night. 

Sincerely,
The invisible man!


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

I feel that the thunder I stole has been reclaimed!

Sorry Brian...You must admit, it's pretty cool to be invisible though!

-Solly


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

wishIwereAnExpert said:


> I like that idea of using several within a single package. Your link appears to get me to some other product, but I browsed that website and those I-buttons are very cool indeed.
> -Solly


Oops, same manufacturer different link; I think they used to be on the same page:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/ibutton/


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

If anyone wants to do the same as I did, the difference in shipping between fedex ground and overnight for two loggers was only around $25.

Looks like my package is due tommorow, and it is only 7F here right now, so it should be interesting!


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Since Brian is doing the relevant testing, I'm no longer taking donations...make him pay for the tests! :lol:

Anyway Brian, I can't wait to see the data. Once you know the temps to "imitate," will you play around with packages in the freezer/fridge/outside/whatever? I'm really curious about this stuff...

-Solly


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

I do something like this each year with my fifth graders. We use digital min/max thermometers - about $7.00 ea. We will experiment using varying thicknesses of insulation and leave the boxes outside in the winter and measure temps in the internal 'frog carrying' center. The I will throw some thermometers in actual shipping boxes and get the results back from the people purchasing frogs. Useful information indeed but don't make the experiment more difficult than it needs to be.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

wishIwereAnExpert said:


> Since Brian is doing the relevant testing, I'm no longer taking donations...make him pay for the tests! :lol:
> 
> Anyway Brian, I can't wait to see the data. Once you know the temps to "imitate," will you play around with packages in the freezer/fridge/outside/whatever? I'm really curious about this stuff...
> 
> -Solly


Most certainly...I will have new toys to play with!
Actually, I tested in many different temps in a few different packing schemes last winter, but have no real records of what happened, and was using simple min/max thermometers...it was more like, if it looks like its working do it the same, or slightly different sort of deal.
With these devices, it will be easy to save, share results, as they are already recorded.

Also, just wanted to let everyone know that I regret that it ended up this way, with Solly cancelling his planned tests.

If you guys would like, I would be happy to bouce a couple packages back and forth. 

Actually, for measuring in transit temps, if any of you had been planning to buy a logger at one time or another, I suggest doing the same as I did, and request them to turn it on, and ship it overnight. Costs another $25 and you get to see readings of temps in transit from NH.

Thanks Solly, for giving this idea a push towards an actual experiment.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Wow, didn't see this thread for a while. Great to see the idea has this much sopport. Who are we sending money to since Brian got things rolling? 



wishIwereAnExpert said:


> Thanks all for the interest, and special thanks to Stace and Kyle (Sbrelend and Kyle1745 respectively) for coming up with this experiment.
> 
> -Solly


*cough*http://dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22086&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30*cough*


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

JWerner said:


> I do something like this each year with my fifth graders. We use digital min/max thermometers - about $7.00 ea. We will experiment using varying thicknesses of insulation and leave the boxes outside in the winter and measure temps in the internal 'frog carrying' center. The I will throw some thermometers in actual shipping boxes and get the results back from the people purchasing frogs. Useful information indeed but don't make the experiment more difficult than it needs to be.


Very cool...(no pun intended)

What I am mainly interested in finding by shipping a logger is the temps a package exposed to, versus what the weather predictions or outside temps are.

A couple of for instances...
I have heard one person say the cargo bays are heated (but to what temp?) I have also heard that they are not...I could belive either to be true....we will find out soon.
The sort areas are also heated...to what temps? 
Are the packages even there long enough to matter?
What about when a package is "held at" the station...what temps are they exposed to there? I assume room temp, but they always go back into an area that I cant see to get the package, so who knows? One way to find out.

Hopefully, the outcome will enable all of us to plan better, and make for the safest shipping possible.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The UPS sort facilitiy my girlfriend works at is heated to about 70 degrees. The truck trailers are not temperature controled in any way. Just from looking at various tracking histories for different packages I've got, they're in the facility for 1-3 hours usually. 

UPS's air stuff is loaded into air containers at the sort facility. They are then taken to the airport where they are loaded onto the plane. I will get some more info on them when I talk to my girlfriend next. 

Of significant importance when we go to finialize the packaging design is that the sort facility(s?) has numerous conveyer belts that are very high in the air that don't have guard rails. This means a package can fall a good distance to the floor. As one can imagine, it is fairly common for packages to bust open during handeling (not just from the conveyer belts either). 

I'm working on getting a tour of the one here so I can get first hand info. Employees aren't allowed to take consumer electronics, icluding cell phones, inside.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Cool info Mike,
So I'm kind of guessing the containers that go into the planes would buffer temps a great deal, especially since they are packed at a reasonably warm temperature.
Then again, if you're package gets stuck between 6 boxes of frozen steaks with dry ice inside, it won't help much (a nightmare I sometimes have).


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Great idea guys. this would be interesting to do in the middle of summer too. Count me in on financial help. Send me a PM with your paypal account and I will help.


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

defaced said:


> The UPS sort facilitiy my girlfriend works at is heated to about 70 degrees. The truck trailers are not temperature controled in any way. Just from looking at various tracking histories for different packages I've got, they're in the facility for 1-3 hours usually.
> 
> UPS's air stuff is loaded into air containers at the sort facility. They are then taken to the airport where they are loaded onto the plane. I will get some more info on them when I talk to my girlfriend next.
> 
> ...


I pick off at our hub and I think today the high was 32 out side and in the trailers There were boxes frozen together, And when I was picking it was maybe upper fortys low fifties, So basically she is one lucky gal.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

xfrogx said:


> defaced said:
> 
> 
> > The UPS sort facilitiy my girlfriend works at is heated to about 70 degrees. *The truck trailers are not temperature controled in any way. *
> ...


She loads the trailers and it's the same for her.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Data from Brian's first test split to http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22632


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Looks like tests 2 and 3, to NH and then back here again will happen on monday, same packaging, same carrier.

Total cost estimated to be $60

Looking for a few people to chip in...

Please PM me for pay-pal address...my email is clogged right now, so don't go there!

Thanks,
Brian


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Would like to do another test now that we have some actual "cold" weather...
Seeking donations, and someone to send the package to that will also be experiencing cold weather on tuesday, hopefully.

Our temps here are supposed to be 13 for a high on monday, with a low of 0F.
If the weather in you're area is going to be cold (below 20 preferably)tuesday, and would like to participate, let me know. The package will be shipped in the same fasion, with a return shipment packing slip, which you will have to tape onto the box, then the package will be charged to my account.
Due to some rate increases, I expect this test to run around $70-80, and seek small dontations.


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