# disinfecting established vivarium without taking it apart



## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

Sadly I recently lost two of my dart frogs that had been living together for a while. I had a four year old D. tinctorius matecho and a citronella that was around a year old. Both were doing really well and suddenly dropped dead. My matecho around a month ago and my citronella just a week ago. I know it is not advisable to mix species and I probably won't do it in the future but that is not my question. Since they died so unexpectedly I think that they must have had some sort of infection, possibly bacterial, which could still be in the vivarium and could infect other darts if I added them. 
The tank that they died in is a really nicely established vivarium and I want to know what I can do so that I can put new frogs in the tank and prevent them from catching the disease without doing a complete tank teardown. 
Is there any way to disinfect the tank without disturbing the plants too much? If I wait a few months before adding frogs will any pathogens die off without a host to infect? I know that CO2 can be used to kill larger pests but I didn't know if this would kill bacteria or any other disease that could still be in the tank. Would making the tank very hot like over 100˚F or cold like just around freezing kill anything? I know the plants would survive these temps because I have a tropical greenhouse which has gotten extremely hot in summer and the heater has failed a few times in the winter and the plants were fine in both cases. Is this a possibility? Could I treat the water with anything, maybe something made for freshwater fish. The vivarium has a large waterfall so if I put anything in the water it should spread through all of the soil. Sorry for rambling I just thought of a lot of ideas but don't know if any would work. Any thought and ideas would be greatly appreciated.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

jturner said:


> Sadly I recently lost two of my dart frogs that had been living together for a while. I had a four year old D. tinctorius matecho and a citronella that was around a year old. Both were doing really well and suddenly dropped dead. My matecho around a month ago and my citronella just a week ago. I know it is not advisable to mix species and I probably won't do it in the future but that is not my question. Since they died so unexpectedly I think that they must have had some sort of infection, possibly bacterial, which could still be in the vivarium and could infect other darts if I added them.
> The tank that they died in is a really nicely established vivarium and I want to know what I can do so that I can put new frogs in the tank and prevent them from catching the disease without doing a complete tank teardown.
> Is there any way to disinfect the tank without disturbing the plants too much? If I wait a few months before adding frogs will any pathogens die off without a host to infect? I know that CO2 can be used to kill larger pests but I didn't know if this would kill bacteria or any other disease that could still be in the tank. Would making the tank very hot like over 100˚F or cold like just around freezing kill anything? I know the plants would survive these temps because I have a tropical greenhouse which has gotten extremely hot in summer and the heater has failed a few times in the winter and the plants were fine in both cases. Is this a possibility? Could I treat the water with anything, maybe something made for freshwater fish. The vivarium has a large waterfall so if I put anything in the water it should spread through all of the soil. Sorry for rambling I just thought of a lot of ideas but don't know if any would work. Any thought and ideas would be greatly appreciated.


Hello and welcome to the forum. First, I am sorry about you losing some frogs...I know that is no fun. With regards to what is going on, I will offer my personal advice with the hopes that the experts will chime in.

With regards to the tank itself, your frogs died within a month of each other, which is likely no coincidence. The question is, what happened? There definitely could be some pathogen that is the culprit. If that is the case, from what I know, many bacteria, fungi, and virus, can be very difficult to get rid of in the way that you would like. In order to kill many pathogens, you may have to also exterminate all life in your tank. Furthermore, you will likely have to remove anything in your tank that is porous. What does this mean? Breaking down the tank, throwing everything away, and bleaching the tank in a 10% solution for at least 10 minutes. Many organisms can survive much more extreme temperatures than what you describe.

So, the real question in my mind is how much are you willing to risk? My suggestion is that you simply tear the tank down and start again. I know that it sucks, but that is the only way that I know of to ensure that your next inhabitants will have the best shot of health. Other things that I have learned is that you should disinfect all materials that go into your viv, including plants (yes, I have learned this the hard way). In addition to this is the process of quarantining your frogs and having them tested prior to placing them in their permanent enclosure. This will reduce the chances that you will place a sick frog into a permanent enclosure, which will reduce the chance that it will have to be torn down like this.

May I suggest that you go to the beginners section and view the multitude of information first hand? I have found much information in these forums, and what I have not found (or have looked over in some cases), I have a few good friends in this hobby that I trust and turn to for advice.

Again, this is my advice only and I encourage you to check multiple sources for information. However, i you ever have any questions for me or would like some of my experiences, I am more than happy to help. You can either respond here or PM me. Good luck.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

without knowing what killed your previous other animals, I believe it is responsible husbandry to tear it completely apart. Double bag anything organic as to not subject your local environment with exotic organisms. Disinfect the tank and start over.


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

Thanks for the quick responses. I had a feeling that this is the sort of response that I would get. I am in no rush to add new frogs to this tank so I just would like to explore some other ideas that don't involve tearing the whole thing apart. It seems like there are lots of ways to disinfect plants without killing them by using bleach, hydrogen peroxide + vinegar, potassium permanganate, iodine etc. My question is if any of these methods could be used on the whole tank. I use iodine to disinfect corals and I know that it is used as a disinfectant in hydroponic systems so I am pretty sure that it is safe for plants. If I were to introduce any of these chemicals to the water in the viv and spray down and soak the tank and plants with a dilute solution could this be at all effective? Are there any chemicals I should know about that can't be removed or neutralized once introduced that could be harmful to frogs later. 

I know that disinfecting an entire vivarium is totally different than soaking a few cuttings in a disinfectant but I am just thinking about other options. I will probably get more people telling me to just tear it down but there has to be an alternate solution. I have been in the reptile hobby for a long time and in the past have had some tree frogs and other reptiles die from diseases and being uninformed I used their vivs to house replacements without cleaning them at all. I can think of a few different times that I did this and I never had problems. This was probably pretty stupid and I was most likely just lucky those times. I am definitely smarter now and as a last resort I may have to tear it down but it wouldn't hurt to experiment a little bit. I know it sounds irresponsible to risk the life of a dart frog but maybe I end up trying one of these methods and I am totally fine. I am sure that other people have run into this problem before and will in the future so I think that this could be a productive discussion.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

The only fail-proof plan is to do exactly the opposite of what you'd prefer; which is tearing it all down & starting from 0. It's the most responsible thing you can do & the safest.
(I'm not saying that you are irresponsible). 

For me personally, it wouldn't even be a question.
(But I understand why you'd hope against it).
Unfortunately, you wanted options & there are none.

But here's 2 I'll give you:
1. Tear it down completely & start over.
- or - 
2. Lose the next frogs you put in the tank.

I'll let you decide which option is the best one.

Good luck.


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

I don't want to sound argumentative but after thinking about it I honestly find it hard to believe that there is no way of disinfecting the tank even with plants in it. I still have not decided whether or not to try any of my ideas but no one seems to have any input on them. The background with hidden air circulation and pipes for waterfall is all built in so if I were to rip out all the plants and substrate could I at least sterilize the background without taking it out?


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

jturner said:


> I don't want to sound argumentative but after thinking about it I honestly find it hard to believe that there is no way of disinfecting the tank even with plants in it. I still have not decided whether or not to try any of my ideas but no one seems to have any input on them. The background with hidden air circulation and pipes for waterfall is all built in so if I were to rip out all the plants and substrate could I at least sterilize the background without taking it out?


People are giving their input on your question and idea. The problem is that you are either looking for affirmation for what you want to do or are hoping that someone here will have a solution that will support your end state of keeping your viv together. I get it. Putting together a custom viv is a not easy, and when you put that kind of time, money, and work into it, the last thing you want to do is tear it down. No one here blames you for not wanting to tear it down, but that is what I would do. This is exactly why so many on here are passionate about quarantine, disinfecting what goes in the tank, having frogs tested, not doing things that will stress the animals, etc. Primarily is the concern for the health of the frogs, but also the effort and money that goes into these vivs. No one wants to tear them down, but they do what they have to.

That said, I am certainly no microbiologist, herptologist, or any kind of expert that can site for you a peer reviewed journal article that can tell you definitively, under what treatments would various common pathogens be destroyed. Even if I were, I think that I would need more information than your frogs just died. Different pathogens may require different treatments. Why not have necropsy of your frogs done to find out what they died from? Or, why not take samples from your viv and send it to a lab so that they can determine what's in there? By doing some of these things, maybe you can make a better informed decision. Is it possible that you can do some treatments and hope for the best, sure...why not? Like you said about when you did that before, you might get lucky, rather your next frogs might. 

My question is, why take that chance? Look at your next build as an opportunity to provide and equally nice, if not better environment than the last. That is part of the fun. Enjoy it. When your done, you can rest easy knowing that you have minimized that risk. Thoughts?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

jturner said:


> I don't want to sound argumentative but after thinking about it I honestly find it hard to believe that there is no way of disinfecting the tank even with plants in it.


Too late ... you do. 
Aaron gave a dignified response. If I felt like being nice, I'd say what he said ... but no. I won't be. 
Ever seen the V8 commercials? That's what I wanted to do when I read your response. 

You've been given your answer. We've all said the same thing ... TEAR IT DOWN. 
Obviously you don't want to hear that & I'd assume that you're going to be doing what you want anyways.
None of us NEED to provide reasons why you should ... bc it's common sense.

So go ahead & ignore us ... learn the hard way then. It's now your problem. 

Does it suck to build the tank & then have to tear it all down.
Yep. Absolutely. I'd be mad.

Guess what ... tough sh#%.

You are the one who decided to keep exotic pets. It comes with the territory. You are the one who did not practice, at minimum, any kind of quarantine procedure. This is one of the hard lessons you will have to learn if you want to continue in this hobby ... SHORT CUTS DON'T WORK LONG TERM. It only creates more problems in the end. We ALL have been in your shoes before ... and why we are all saying the same thing. 

Bottom line is that if you are going to be in this hobby, it's your responsibility to keep them alive & to do the right things.

Stop being selfish. This isn't about you.
This is about the frogs & what gives them the best chance for survival. Now & in the future.
You either want to do things right or you want to do things for yourself. There is no inbetween.


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

Ok I guess I have gotten my answer for what to do with this tank. This is probably not the first place I should go to find microbiologists to teach me about the possible diseases in dart frogs. I know I was just hoping for a better solution but all of you are right in that I should do what is best to keep the frogs healthy. There are a bunch of threads about how to sterilize plants so do you really think that non of these would work even if I took everything out. Even for future reference when I get new plants or take plants out of a tank that needs cleaning what do you guys think is a good way to disinfect them or what methods have you used in the past? Also what are your experiences with quarantining dart frogs and for how long?


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

I do a 10% bleach solution for all plants before placing them. As for frogs i quarantine them for about a month before placing them. I use a 10g for this. Set it up with false bottom abg,wandering jew, and moss. When it is time for them to move into their new home. I throw out everything but the 10g,bleach it and make another for the next frogs coming in.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Quite possibly the most knowledgeable person on this board is Ed.He has explained, and supported with several pieces of scientific literature, why you can not, in practice, disinfect most items in our enclosures. Plants included. I'll use our search tool to try and find those threads and link them here. Meanwhile you can do the same thing so you may find your answer quicker.

Edit moved to next post 



jturner said:


> Thanks for the quick responses. I had a feeling that this is the sort of response that I would get. I am in no rush to add new frogs to this tank so I just would like to explore some other ideas that don't involve tearing the whole thing apart. It seems like there are lots of ways to disinfect plants without killing them by using bleach, hydrogen peroxide + vinegar, potassium permanganate, iodine etc. My question is if any of these methods could be used on the whole tank. I use iodine to disinfect corals and I know that it is used as a disinfectant in hydroponic systems so I am pretty sure that it is safe for plants. If I were to introduce any of these chemicals to the water in the viv and spray down and soak the tank and plants with a dilute solution could this be at all effective? Are there any chemicals I should know about that can't be removed or neutralized once introduced that could be harmful to frogs later.
> 
> I know that disinfecting an entire vivarium is totally different than soaking a few cuttings in a disinfectant but I am just thinking about other options. I will probably get more people telling me to just tear it down but there has to be an alternate solution. I have been in the reptile hobby for a long time and in the past have had some tree frogs and other reptiles die from diseases and being uninformed I used their vivs to house replacements without cleaning them at all. I can think of a few different times that I did this and I never had problems. This was probably pretty stupid and I was most likely just lucky those times. I am definitely smarter now and as a last resort I may have to tear it down but it wouldn't hurt to experiment a little bit. I know it sounds irresponsible to risk the life of a dart frog but maybe I end up trying one of these methods and I am totally fine. I am sure that other people have run into this problem before and will in the future so I think that this could be a productive discussion.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Toss out all organics.
Wood, soil, leaf litter ... EVERYTHING.
It's unsalvagable.

Tear out the background ... toss it.

Plants can be soaked in a 10% Bleach solution for 10 minutes.
(Make sure to soak them in regular water 1st ... I do it for about 20 minutes; for hydration purposes).
Rinse them well afterwards.
(You should probably soak your pumps ... etc ... in bleach as well.

Once the tank is empty, fill it with bleach. Scrub it well. 
Maybe even spray it down with Ammonia & 90% Rubbing Alcohol as well.
An alternative is hospital grade disinfectant ... something like Viro-San.
(I am not versed in what chemicals kill every parasite, virus ... etc ... some work for some things, others dont).

But this is what I would personally do.
*keep in mind that none of this is fail-proof other than tossing EVERYTHING and starting completely over).

To QT animals, I build a simple setup. Nothing too extravagant.
Keep the frogs in this setup for 30-60 days. (Some people do this even longer). It's at this time that you will do swabs & fecals as well.

If after that time period, you don't see anything wrong & the frogs look healthy ... 
(And after a minimum of 2 negative tests if you decide to test)
THEN you can put the frogs into their permanent setup.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Also, since you never determined cause of death I will assume you never did a fecal exam of your frogs. How will you tell: 1)What pathogen is present (if any) and, 2) if your disinfection has successfully eradicated your infection? In the absence of testing all that can be said is that you killed your frogs and want to use additional frogs as your metric of success doing something several people have already told you is impractical


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Once again the search function has proven invaluable. Here is a perfect place to begin, OP.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/194721-definition-frog-free.html


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

aspidites73 said:


> Also, since you never determined cause of death I will assume you never did a fecal exam of your frogs. How will you tell: 1)What pathogen is present (if any) and, 2) if your disinfection has successfully eradicated your infection? In the absence of testing all that can be said is that you killed your frogs and want to use additional frogs as your metric of success doing something several people have already told you is impractical


I do still have the body of the second frog that died and I could get it tested. How would I go about doing this? There is a vet down the road that treated my panther chameleon once. Should I try there or find a specialized vet? And even if I did find out what caused the deaths, could this change how I deal with the tank?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Where is the body being stored? Did you do any fecal exams at any time that this frog was alive? Of course the results will influence your course of action. In fact, the results will dictate your treatment protocal via the interpretation of the necropsy of an experienced vet.



jturner said:


> I do still have the body of the second frog that died and I could get it tested. How would I go about doing this? There is a vet down the road that treated my panther chameleon once. Should I try there or find a specialized vet? And even if I did find out what caused the deaths, could this change how I deal with the tank?


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

I also ran out of fruit flies recently and bought a container at petco. I usually have cultures ready all the time. Could something in the fruit flies have done it?


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

aspidites73 said:


> Where is the body being stored? Did you do any fecal exams at any time that this frog was alive? Of course the results will influence your course of action. In fact, the results will dictate your treatment protocal via the interpretation of the necropsy of an experienced vet.



The body is in the refrigerator because I thought that the freezer would make ice crystals and destroy the tissue. If a necropsy at this vet ends up being super expensive is there anywhere that I can send it?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

jturner said:


> The body is in the refrigerator because I thought that the freezer would make ice crystals and destroy the tissue. If a necropsy at this vet ends up being super expensive is there anywhere that I can send it?


How are you determining 'super expensive'? What would be the value of gaining knowledge that may help you save the life of your next pet? Unless you're going to give your next pet the option of not coming with you, you owe it to them

Edit: good call on refrigerator storage! Now, time is your main enemy.


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

aspidites73 said:


> How are you determining 'super expensive'? What would be the value of gaining knowledge that may help you save the life of your next pet? Unless you're going to give your next pet the option of not coming with you, you owe it to them
> 
> Edit: good call on refrigerator storage! Now, time is your main enemy.


I understand that I may be able to gain knowledge from a necropsy but if it is very expensive, like $200+, I may as well just buy a totally new setup and keep the one I have now without inhabitants. I know that I could be throwing away the potential to gain valuable information so that is the sort of decision I guess I will have to make. I will call the local vet tomorrow and ask. Also, I noticed as the second frog took his last breaths he was having crazy muscle spasms and died with his legs totally extended. Could this point to anything? I maybe should have brought that up earlier.


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

jturner said:


> Also, I noticed as the second frog took his last breaths he was having crazy muscle spasms and died with his legs totally extended. Could this point to anything? I maybe should have brought that up earlier.


Yup, what's your supplementation like?


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

Dev30ils said:


> Yup, what's your supplementation like?


I dust calcium around 3x a week and Dendrocare vitamins and mineral supplement with most other feedings which probably ends up being at least 3-4x a week.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

When did you start using Dendrocare?

s


jturner said:


> I dust calcium around 3x a week and Dendrocare vitamins and mineral supplement with most other feedings which probably ends up being at least 3-4x a week.


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

Scott said:


> When did you start using Dendrocare?
> 
> s


I have always used it ever since the first dart frogs that I got. The bottles are a bit old though possibly 2 years so could this make a difference? Could a deficiency really have killed both frogs one after the other?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

No, just curious if it was a recent addition to your supplementation cycle.

s


jturner said:


> I have always used it ever since the first dart frogs that I got. The bottles are a bit old though possibly 2 years so could this make a difference? Could a deficiency really have killed both frogs one after the other?


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

jturner said:


> The bottles are a bit old though possibly 2 years so could this make a difference? Could a deficiency really have killed both frogs one after the other?


If all of your supplements (calcium & vitamins) are that old or have not been stored properly (in the refrigerator, air tight container) it's possible that your frogs could have died from a calcium deficiency or other vitamin deficiency. 

What are you using as your calcium supplement?


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

I use Reptivite with D3 and Repti calcium without D3 and alternate. Maybe it was a deficiency because the bottles are definitely old. It just seems so weird that they died one after the other. 

I called the vet and they said it would be 2-300$ for a necropsy. I think it would be a bit crazy to spend that kind of money on this. Even if it was half that price the problem is that it is sort of a gamble. I could get valuable information but I also may not. This is just my point of view. It very well could have been bad husbandry on my part by using old supplements. I started out this thread thinking that it was some sort of bacteria that could easily be wiped out if I tried disinfecting the tank but now I think I have come to my senses and will probably trash the viv eventually. I will be away for a little while and won't be able to take it down right away though. When I get to it I am thinking that I will first dispose of all organics and will disinfect the plants with bleach and not use them with any animals for a long while. Just for interest why is the background "unsalvageable"? Is it because of how porous it is? I just thought because it was non living that it could be treated with stronger chemicals. 

Back to the subject of testing the frog. I still have the dead frog in the refrigerator and was interested if there was anything that I could test for myself. Possibly try a fecal exam. Hope this doesn't sound too gross to anyone. I have a decent microscope, nothing fancy, the max magnification is around 450X which is probably not enough to see bacteria but maybe I would find some larger parasites. If I do try this I will make sure to wear gloves and take the proper precautions. I definitely don't have the knowledge and probably not the equipment to identify or find any valuable information but this is just me being curious. Has anyone tried anything like this themselves?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Fecals are a part of routine animal husbandry. From dogs and cats to snakes and frogs. Without testing you will never know what precautions to take, or what symptoms to watch for. Do some searching here, there are plenty of threads on this topic. Here's a start‘

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/search.php?searchid=9174897


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

aspidites73 said:


> Fecals are a part of routine animal husbandry. From dogs and cats to snakes and frogs. Without testing you will never know what precautions to take, or what symptoms to watch for. Do some searching here, there are plenty of threads on this topic. Here's a start‘
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/search.php?searchid=9174897


When I get new frogs in the future I will definitely quarantine and have fecal tests done at the vet especially after this. For some reason the link worked the first time I clicked on it but now it doesn't work. Could you post it again please?


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