# Frogs: the $$ side of things



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm interested to speak with anyone that makes a sizeable portion of their income in Herps or darts specifically. I'd really like to be able to quit one of my jobs and focus more time on frogs, but I would obviously need to be making enough money with the hobby to facilitate that. PMs or email are fine. Thanks.

Edit: if this should be moved to Lounge, feel free to do so.


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Ill second that .



Cuz I hate manual labor & would really like to do something I like for a living.


Sorry if I hyjacked Dane I just been thinking about this almost 24/7 lately


Also if anyone out ther does this fulltime for a living my next question is . Do you still enjoy it or has it become like work??


Thanx ,

TODD


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Let me be the first to point out... that a hobby turned into a living (even if it's only a "partial" living), is not nearly as enjoyable as a "pure" hobby.

s


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*Hobby*

I wouldnt want to find out.
later


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2005)

I'd be interested in hearng this too

It would give you that excuse to turn every room into a frog room eh?
I guess the one thig that you'd have to consider is that you'd have to produce frogs on a very large scale in order to turn a profic you could live off of, and given how pricy darts are even on the hobbiest leve, you'd need to invest a fair sum to start off.

But then again, all entrepreneural ideas need some sort of risk dont they?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

is there even anyone out there who makes their living solely on darts? i think everyone i've talked to at shows still have dayjobs.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

NCSUdart said:


> is there even anyone out there who makes their living solely on darts? i think everyone i've talked to at shows still have dayjobs.


yeah there are a handfull.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Patrick Nabors, off the top of my head.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

I recently worked with a friend to help him develop the numbers on a breeding business for a different group of animals. He started with his minimal sustaining net annual profit and worked the figures back from there (> misc. expenses > losses > power > advertising > food cultures > animal housing > breeding stock > etc etc etc.) He also calculated the delay between buying his breeders and them becoming productive, % breeders productive during year, breeding problems and inefficiencies, refreshing bloodlines, supplies, show expenses, office supplies etc.

There is also the aspect of the competitive environment that you will work in. If there are a large number of "hobby breeders" - this will affect your market share and the price you can get in the competitive market. Also remember that the market can shift to less or greater demand....and new competition of greater scale than you can arrive on the scene and cause a significant change in the marketplace.

You may find that you need to work your way up to a full time situation until you can get your operation to scale and efficiency that will permit you to work it full time.

I recommend that you develop a standard business plan with all the numbers. This will require you to focus on all aspects of the business, the market and what it will take to get to the end-state. Have someone familliar with starting and running a business take a look at it and ask the hard questions. This will position you to anticipate business challenges and help you reach your goals.

Alan


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

i know patrick makes most of his money on darts, but he also breeds geckos and i know he used to breed other lizards as well.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

scott has a valid point, one that has made me really think twice.

But I think in the end, as long as you're happy, and as long as you're dedicated, its possible you can get even more thrill out of a business because, if you're successful enough, you can aquire much, much more to your collections but any herp business often can be more work than its worth...full time that is.

Me, i think I'd enjoy my hobby business wise, only AFTER I got myself established, mostly because I'd want to have an actual, large commercial greenhouse to expand my carnivorous plant collection even further this way. But for now, frogs are supposed to be "recreation," not "work" for me. I don't need more "work" than I already have. I'll let frogs become "enjoyable work" later when most of all i've had to put up with is gone.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm not necessarily looking to make my entire living off of frogs, but it would be nice if I could quit my night job. I'd only need to be making $400-500 per month, but so far no breeders have contacted me to give me any advice. Guess they don't want any more competition. I will have to start working out percentages and figures to estimate what kind of production that would require.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2005)

> no breeders have contacted me to give me any advice. Guess they don't want any more competition.


Can you blame them? I mean as it is they do end up competing with hobbyists breeders (seems most people who keep them want to breed them). So in respect keep in mind that all of your customers to a certain degree down the road are going to be "competition" of a sort. I see this making it difficult to earn a living by breeding frogs (unless the nature of the hobby changes drastically). 


-Tad


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## Ridge (Jun 7, 2004)

Dane,

I would recommend contacting a local Small Business Development Counseling office. You can find these on a lot of college campuses. They will do FREE business plans, marketing analysis, website development, etc. for you. Another group that can help is SCORE, which offers free counciling for small business customers and is a great organization. Here is their San Diego website - http://www.score-sandiego.org

As a business officer for a large bank I refer people to both of these organizations on a daily basis. They can do lots to help you with setting up a successful business of any size and will give it to you straight if they think your efforts will bring you the profits you need.

Good luck!

Dave


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

The direction this hobby is going I would not risk making it full time job. Just from the time I have been in the hobby things have changes and prices go up and down. Many "hot" frogs are no longer and many people are sitting on a ton of them. I think its much better as a hobby that in some cases can pay for itself but I would never in my own opinion rely on it as a source of income. Just think... one small temperature swing and there goes your job! Or bacteria, or pest, or house fire, or spider infestation , or winter storm, or hurricane, or tornado, etc etc etc...

The insurance for the animals from what I hear is just about not worth it for what it costs. I know my home owners will cover the equipment, as long as I have pictures to prove it.

Just some thoughts, but with the growth and success of what seems to be a lot more people breeding these animals I can only see most prices falling to the rock bottom as time goes on. Just think what the recent imports cost some of the larger breeders in future sales...


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## OneTwentySix (Nov 11, 2004)

I understand that supply is greatly outpacing demand for most species, but at about what kind of rate is demand increasing in general for frogs?


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2005)

I've seen it happen with chameleons - people make them their 
primary source of income. Msot of the people that do this, 
however, end up along the same path. The keeping an dbreedign 
of their animals stops becoming a hobby, and becomes a priority. 
And then it loses it's fun. When keeping, breeding and selling your 
aniamls is no longer "fun", but becomes a matter of necissity, 
you're no longer a hobbyist. 

Not everyone does this, of course. There are plenty of people 
breeding the animals the love, and making enough to not do 
anything else. This is a rarity, in myexperience, with any herps.

I breed my animals for the fun of it, I make my own aluminum 
cages and sell them at shows, with my chameleons, for fun - and 
profit. but mostly fun. Otherwise, I'd be doing something else, 
making a hell of a lot more money for my time!

Every single chameleon breeder/importer I've known has tried to 
make money with them. It's usually done in two ways. 
1. keep it fun, and make money when you can. Hope to break 
even, and you'll usually make a little extra a few times a year (when 
they hatch). 
2. invest so much time, space and money, that it becomes simply a 
job. You are primarily motivated by profit (of course) and not 
interest in the animals. It grows so big, you have to hire someone 
to feed, clean cages and esentially take care of your aniamls FOR 
you. 

The problems I have seen lead to many of the big name breeders 
breeding only the species they can make money off of. My 
favorite species, deremensis, is no longer bred by any of the 
commercial breeders, because they're not dependable, and there's 
little demand for C.B. animals. Everyone that's "gone commercial" 
has abandoned them once they realized they couldn't make much 
money off them. They all go to Veileds and panthers, the big 
money makers. In talking to them, they (except the Kammers, they 
seem to still enjoy it) have all seemed to lose their interest to a 
degree. They arent' really gettign enjoyment out of their aniamls 
anymore - certainly not as much as when it was a hobby. Worst 
of all, I've met quite a few former hobbyisits that became all too 
dependant on their animal sales income. When hard times hit, 
these breeders, previously the most reputable in the trade, falsley 
advertized animals, and blatently lied to me (and others) to make a 
sale. I'm certain that had they had a primary source of income, 
they would not have resorted to such reputation-ruining measures. 
THAT is bad for the hobby.

I'd like to set up a buisness in the future. Just to "legitimize" my 
hobby-income. I plan on doing the buisness as my hobby - never 
depending on any income from it. 

Dart frogs have always been on my interest list. They are similar 
to chameleons in that they do well if maintained in an enclosure that 
replicates their natural habitat. They are both visually stunning, and 
have interesting behavior for herps. I've always found dart frog 
and chameleon keepers to have more in common than other, "stick 
it in a tank with a heat lamp and a bowl of water" herp owners. It 
was very fortunate that the little frog I found in Tampa turned out 
to be a pumilio - if I could have chosen a dart frog to mess with, 
it'd have been them for their reproductive behavior.


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

Great post. e adrignola! Very few people make a profit selling herps. There is always someone with more money, poor ethics, and cheaper animals. To make a profit many people sacrifice the quality of care that you provide animals. UV lights, food, electric bills, vet bills, ect. add up and really hurt your bottom line.

Also once you get past a certain number of animals it becomes a chore and many people get burnt out. How many times even on this message board have you seen someone buy alot of frogs, only to sell everything a few months later when they get tired of keeping them? I am often up until 1 AM taking care of my animals, this is addition to going to school full-time, 2 jobs, and a child. 

I do a couple local reptile shows and sell frogs, inverts, and chameleons. I do it because I like to educate people and bring new people into the hobby. Many people come to me telling me that they couldn't keep a certain herp alive, but once educated on the proper care they are successful. I have refused sale to those who were not willing to care for the animal right. Many people say anything to make a sale, such as telling a person a chameleon can live in a 10 gallon tank.


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## AZDR_A (Mar 20, 2004)

There have been a lot of good points brought up already. I am going to keep this short, feel free to contact me off list if you need more info. 

I run AZDR fulltime. I am putting in a minimum of 50 hours a week. If I actually kept track of it I am sure it would be more, but I don't really want to know  My husband, Greg, helps me out in the evenings and on the weekends whenever he can. My biggest problem at this point is running the business out of our home, and not being able to get away from working. When I am at home I have a very hard time relaxing. 

The first run of AZDR (pre twin's) Greg and I both had full time jobs. The second run of AZDR (post twins) has been going for 3 1/2 years now, most of that I have been doing it full time.

It is possible to still love the frogs. One of the most relaxing things for me to do is my tadpole water changes. I just sit on the floor in the frog room watching a movie or listening to music and changing the tad water. I don't feel like it's a chore, or not enjoy doing what I have to do(okay, I really don't like cleaning 75 mason jars a week). The biggest problem is time managment, and prioritizing things, and keeping a routine/schedule. 

I think it's definatley possible to bring in some money, but it won't be consistent. The market is always changing, and when you are dealing with such fragile animals as these frogs are, there are a lot of unexpected things that can happen. 

And Dane, I am sure if no breeders have contacted you, it's not because we don't want anymore competition. There is plenty of business out there, and the Dart Frog community is the least competitive that I know of. Some of our closest friends are fellow breeders and business owners in the hobby. Also this weekend was American Frog Day, we just got home from Atlanta late last night.

Traveling all over the country to the different frog shows, and meeting new people is the biggest perk of all! Our experiences at the ABG this last weekend were absolutley awesome, one of a kind!

Alan's advice was great, start with a business plan.


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

I agree the dart frog community is very friendly. I have had breeders sell me pairs and give me breeding advice. In many other hobbies, trade secrets are closely protected. I think it is great how everyone here is willing to exchange information in an effort to advance the hobby. I think this is why I have migrated more towards dart frogs instead of my other hobbies. Showing horses is too expensive and political.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2005)

*Been down this road*

I decieded to post since I have been down this road and can share some experiences. My goal in 1999 was to open an exotic petstore storefront to support my breeding goals. I spent a year in planning and gathering resources. I opened in 2000, changed locations a year latter and shut down after a year and half in operation. My reasons for shuting down were not related to the success or failure of the store. I had too many things that I was involved in and had to drastically re-arrange my life. I got married during this time, was an officer in the Army National Guard and took command of a unit (I wanted the management and planning experience). I am an IT person as far as my full time job and offered a good paying Civil Service job with the Air Force (lots of time off, etc.). This was all during the year and half I had my petstore open. Just became way to much and the stress was really getting to me. I also had experience in selling and marketing products prior to the store.

What I really wanted to do is focus on breeding projects. I was working with a variety of animals mostly snakes and lizards. During the duration of the storefront being open I did leave my job and work the store full time for about 4 months. I had my wife and two other people working the day to day in the store. It started out just my wife but expanded very quickly. My store was 50% reptile but the fish expanded so much that it became 40% Reptile, 50% Fish and 10% other. The point here is what is in your location already has a big impact. All of my breeding projects were reptile. Points I would like to make:

1. The storefront has alot of advantages. Buying everything wholesale, the trades and offers to buy of different types that came my way. This was in animals, cages and equipment. The big trade off is the expense of the building, utilities, cost of the help.

2. It is "do-able", but do not limit yourself to just frogs. You have to offer more. Frogs can still be your personel focus. Your customers will evolve in their interests by what you are carrying. Today they are gecko keepers but they will be interested in frogs next week. A store meets customer demand. I might not be interested in ferrets but I will carry the dry goods they need to support their exotic animals. Once they see the cute frogs and geckos....I did not carry anything for cats and dogs.

3. My experience has been that most people are afraid to try keeping dart frogs and reef tanks and planted aquariums, etc. They do not know how to do it, what to buy and afraid they going to fail. Carrying the right products is a big part of it. Carrying good quality animals is another. I am so tired to going into pets stores and seeing the same lame stuff. 

4. Clearly lay out your goals. Review them monthly to see if you are sticking to them. You have to keep this priority #1. Money comes second or your not going to have a good time. For me this got lost somewhat. But in just a year I had over 100 different breeding projects (male and female or more, proper caging, had the knowledge what conditions were needed for proper reproduction) that I was working on. The storefront helped me accomplish this by giving the space, food, etc.

5. You will create demand. In six months the amount of feeder insects, frozen foods, live foods etc. I was selling was incredible. I encouraged all my customers to consider breeding. I was willing to buy babies if they were following good husbandy. They have to use calcium, feed correctly, proper heat and humdity, etc. Feed your customers good info and they thrive just like the animals. I could buy better babies from local breeders than I can from most wholesalers. This applied to my fish customers too. 

6. Make it educational and they just keep coming back. This is where I made a big mistake. Many people wanted to see the animals I was working with and breeding. I should have scheduled this time separate from store hours. I made my breeding areas part of the store area. The local zoo keepers, Fish and Game, Forrestry Service came to see us. Local elementary schools did field trips to my store! They called ahead and scheduled. I was invited to do presentations. The more I gave the more they wanted but this pulled from time with the animals I needed to be working with. Keep your breeders separate from your customer area.

7. Wow the customers with something new all the time. I would tell the customers to come back next week and I will have something new. Sugar Gliders, Sea Horses, different color of dart frog, Octopus, new types of corals, fresh water fish that are not common. I always tried to get something new. Problem with this is the traffic I would create in the store. 

8. People hate the pet stores with people who do not know what they are doing. I had about 25 people a month talk to me about working there. "This is such a neat place! I want to work here and learn about this stuff!" The two people I hired to work with me were experts. I had a fish guy and a reptile guy. Both had breeding experence and very familiar with the types of equipment and methods used. Finding good people to work with is yours biggest problem. They will be too expensive or not experienced enough. Can you walk away from your business for 3 days and be content that it will still be there when you get back? 

9. You need to use a variety of methods for selling. Storefront, shows, internet site, wholesale animals that I breed to other stores outside your area. None of these methods are consistant but collectively they are great. I would go to a reptile show and sell $1000 on Saturday and on Sunday spend it on what I wanted at the show on animals I needed or wanted for my projects. 

10. You better like doing this becuase you will spend a lot of time doing it. It can not be "like work". This is difficult to do sometimes. AZDR's comments are right on. 

11. Where you are buying and what you are paying is a make or break for any business. Keep looking for new places to buy all of the time. Pay attention to what others are selling at. The quantity you are buying or where you are buying really make the difference. I spent alot of my time on this. 

12. Business Plan - the reason people are pushing this is it will make you contingence plan (what am I going to do if this happens), evaluate your market (can my town handle another store or am I doing something everyone else is not doing?) and do my numbers make sense (I need sell 4,000 dart frogs to make the $ needed).

13. Compare yourself to another business you would want to be like. Your doing a SWOT anaylsis in marketing. I compared myself to LLL Reptile. They have a store front, the selection of animals they carry, the presence they have at shows - they do a lot of them. They are selling the right products. They have knowledge and experiece of what they sell I meet AZDR at the Tucson show and they are doing all the right things and are successful. They had a busy show. I bought from them because of all the same reasons. In this case I bought AZDR over LLL. Both were at that show. I will buy from both again. Look what AZDR has to say about the experiences they are having because they are going beyond just a hobby level.

The store was one of the best experiences of my life and that's why I am considering doing it again. It was more rewarding that what I am doing now. I still have many breeding projects that I am working on but I am running out of room in my house. I encourge you to find a way that will work for your situation. In the end it will all be about the experiences gained and not so much the money.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Interesting comments. 

Dane said about $400-500 a month. I would think it would be doable if you had the right frogs breeding. If you set up a tank, buy the frogs, the bulk of the cost is gone. Now all that is left is time. If you quit the job, you have time. Not sure if this would be true, but say you get a couple pairs that breed regularly, wouldn't that give you a steady supply of frogs to offer. If a pair lays every week, or say two weeks (roughly), that would mean every two weeks you should have frogs to offer. Of course the two week frog availability would start after the first batch morphed and then became a few months old. So if you get some pairs of a few different species, get them to breed, wouldn't this allow $400-500 a month? 

Or is it more complicated than that? I know you would need to get the frogs breeding first.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Dane didn't mention having a Storefront.

Patrick Nabors doesn't have a storefront and he does this full time.

On the other hand - Black Jungle does do a storefront (a nice on at that) but they likely do at least 60/70% of their business in dry goods and/or live plants.

Good information nonetheless.

s


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Lots of great insights, special thanks to Amanda, Snakemann, and e adrignola for perspectives from actual vendors. Opening an actual storefront would be a dream come true, but the startup capital is far beyond me. As Greg said, my actual goal is only $500 in profit monthly, and I'm planning on expanding to include Phelsumas as well as Cresteds and possibly Uroplatus. I currently have about 10 breeding groups/pairs of darts, but until recently I haven't had the time to give enough attention to more than 2 or 3 of them to expect any kind of breeding. Lately when I have spent more time misting, changing tad water, pulling eggs, I've seen much better results, and higher production, it's just going to be hard making the time now, when I know that I won't be making any extra money for a few months at least, waiting for froglets to mature etc. I'm not trying to sound greedy either, as if I'm just in it for the cash. I love the frogs, that's why I'd like to make this my part time job. Any more input is welcome.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Hey Dane - you just mentioned all the keys. That and fairly heavy feeding (3 or 4 times a week rather than 2).

I worked waaaay too many hours this summer. Basically 65/70 hours a week.

My frogs didn't die - but they surely have bred better, and the resulting eggs that I did get would've done better, if I had the time to properly do things.

My hours are back to normal now (of course now it's frickin' winter thanks very much) and I'm already seeing improved results from my frogs.

s


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2005)

Here's a tip - Start with Phelsumas!!!

I'm going to get back into them soon. They were my second 
favorites, and carried my entire hobby - when I was 15!

Chameleons are my HOBBY. I will spend money on them, with 
no need to make any back. Fun first, profit second. I usually 
make enough out of the sale of one clutch of veields to pay for the 
feeders and everything for the whole year - perfect. 

I won't rely on it, because one mistake - incubation medium to 
moinst, for instance, can cost you a lot over a 6-9 month 
incubation (I lost 2/3 of my last eggs cause I had them too moist).

Whe I was 15, we had chameleons and day geckos. Phelsuma m. 
madagasgarenss, a subspecies similar to the grandjis you see, now 
rare in the hobby. 

We kept them, and they bred, consistently, every year. about 
12-20 babies a year, with little effort, and we sold them. We've 
got standingi now, which are common, but stil sell when we put 
them up on line. They live forever, at least 20 years for even th 
esmallest species (klemmeri), probably 30 or more for standingi 
and grandis. They lay hard shelled eggs that are so simple to 
hatch. They are the easiest reptiles to breed, easier than leopard 
geckos.

A couple pairs of phelsuma will almost surely create a descent 
profit, and they are so easy to care for compared to other reptiles. 
Spray and feed, spray and feed... We've got a female standingi 
that was a 10 inch long adult when we got her, 12 years ago. 
She's probably over 20 now, and still producing eggs. 

Chameleons and dart frogs are more intensive, and less stable. 
Same for Uroplates. Phelsuma are just real solid, especially the 
standingi and grandis. Intelligent too - they'll scare you with their 
behavior, little suckers learn like no reptile I've ever seen. Our first 
pair of mad mads NEVER made a sound, ever. One day th emale 
was chirping like carazy for sevral minutes. Their water bowl had 
dried up, and he was in it. I added water, he drank it, and never 
chirped again - absolutly true. 

I don't know what I'm going to do in the near future wit hmy 
animals. I will maintain a breeding group of deremensis, MAYBE 
melleri, since my CB is doing so well, definatly veields. I think I'd 
like to expand my dart frogs in the future. They seem like 
something I'm going to like more and more. I've always had a 
thing for phelsuma, and they're like dart frogs in that they do well in 
pretty cages, and have interesting behavior (I did an independent 
study on Phelsuma behavior). 

We'll be moving to the mountains of NC soon, and I'll be setting 
up a much larger breeding facility (my wife's agreed to let me have 
a large animal room, with more space that I'll ever need). 

I'm involved with the local reptile shows, I 've known Tony 
Cueto(owner of the Tampa, Greenvile, Columbia, and Atlanta 
reptile shows) for nearly 10 years now, and I've worked for him 
at these shows much of that time. I really enjoy settign up a booth 
at the shows when I have stuff to sell. I've got a lot of experience 
in sales, and it's just so much fun educating people AND selling 
things. 

I expect to eventually set up a buisness in the future (probably not 
a storefront), and sell chameleons, phelsuma, and dart frogs. I've 
yet to breed frogs, but I can see me enjoying it in small numbers. 
Definatly not in a large scale! Just enough to do occational shows, 
selling my offspring, and my homemade chameleon cages. 

I've known may people who've thought they could improve their 
hobby by setting up a storefront. They set up a reptile store, start 
breedign all sorts of animals, things are going great. They then 
start making all sorts of money on supplies. So they expand that 
part. Then they start hatchign out all sorts of stuff, since they have 
this big facility. They make lots at shows. So much, it's not worth 
it to have a store front, so they set up in a warehouse, selling 
online and at shows... 

I've known 5 people in 2 states that have set up reptile stores, and 
every one of them ended up closing down, not because they 
weren't making a profit, but because they were able to make 
more, and have more free time without a storefront!


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

I had a large post typed up, but it didn't turn out as I would have liked it too. So here is my advice, start slow, and get more pairs (10 isn't enough to reliably produce income, due to demand for certain species, and breeding shutdown).


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*phelsuma*

e adrignola,On the phelsuma note i have been breeding phelsuma for a long time and I agree with alot of what you said but you can run into the same issue's with them.Genetic diversity is just one for the harder to get species.Another is the average customer would only be interested in the common types grandis etc.Klemmeri are actually not the smallest phelsuma breviceps are currently the smallest.Like frogs,with phelsuma's and uro's you need a few good connections.
later

I forgot to mention phelsuma pusilla pusilla which is a very close second


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

LOL!! I just looked up P. Breviceps, look what I found. Read the "diet" section. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phelsuma_breviceps
Jordan


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*phelsuma*

That's funny.
cya


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