# Aaron`s Frog Farm Shutting down for restructuring



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Hello all,
I`ve finally broke. I`ve been implementing new standards here with sterilization of rearing bins instead of planted bins and have switched most of my breeding programs to egg feeders. In the month of May I`ll be shutting most everything down to assess the state of the hobby and what needs to be done. I`ve been doing this for about 10 years w/ no real vacation and I`m lucky to have had a clean bill of health this whole time. 1 bout of sickness might have taken things here into a downward spiral. I can`t live this way anymore, with no backup. The 40 hour shifts for reptile shows and the 40hr work weeks preceeding have cought up to me. I guess I bit off more than I could chew. Most that know me know that I have been trying to reclaim old farmland and become sustainable from the land I live on while enhancing the amphibian environ here. It`s a lot of work and the city water that was promised(which was taken away 3 times) makes things even harder if I run out of water again this year for the crops and frogs. 
I`m planning on keeping a few select projects and yes, I`ll be looking for a job(probably). This community has come a long way in the lines of breeding Darts and I feel that I`m not AS worried about loosing all these animals anymore. Things have changed tremendously while I was away building my house and facility.
I still have more tads and as you know, once you make the decision there is about 6 months till you can do anything about it. I`ve gone thru this about 7-8 times while living here and have to come to the realization that I can`t vacation or get rid of this feeling till everything is gone or there are few enough animals that I can seed tanks and let someone else care for the collection. The culture (mite)crashes and uncertainty of having enough food for my animals has finally taken it`s toll. I have become the Mad Scientist who lives in the woods. :lol: 
I`m not sure yet how this will go, but I`ve gotta reclaim my sanity and health or I`ll do no good for these animals and loose myself in the process.
I will be keeping:
Mint, orange and yellow P. terribilis
Orange P. bicolor
Red galactanotus
Regina`s
Blue sips
Azureus 
Standard lamasi and retics
and some pumilio projects(escudo`s, Bastis, and possibly a few others)
I need to get back to the geckos and other cricket eating animals so I can mentally accept someone else caring for my collection. 
My time on the internet will also be gone for a couple months. I plan on cutting out all the extra bills(internet and cable and business phone(possibly)) and taking calls on my cell after 9pm. I still have a LOT to work out. I`ll probably be selling most of my frogs and animals at White Plains and other shows for a while also.
I`ve got 6 months till this kicks in fully and have been known to flip flop before but I think I really have to take all this into consideration and get away from it for a while to see things clearly.
I figured I`d make an announcement(esp after the going out of business sale) so things would be clear and no rumors would start.
I`m not going out of business just reassessing how the hobby is progressing and where I fit in. I`ve never been a businessman nor did i ever want to be. I just want to breed animals and help where I can. With the way things have changed in the last 3-4 years, I just produce too many animals to get rid of where I never had this problem before as nothing was really available. 
Time for me to start to simplify and focus.
Thoughts or comments welcome.


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## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

Aaron,

I wish you ALL THE BEST! I will cetainly be praying for you and the direction you need to go that is best for you.

I thank you for all that you've done and all that you're doing for the hobby. I'm personally indebted to you for your kindness and generocity toward my son Brady.

Again, I wish you all the best in whatever direction you go.


PS ~ Will you be doing the Hamburg Show on April 28th?


God Bless,


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Basically I hope to get rid of everything built up here at the hamburg, White Plains and IAD as the finale to my vacation.
Thanks for the kind words


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

As far as I am concerned this is sad news. You are one of the larger and more knowledgeable breeders that I have come accross, and the fact that you post frequently is invaluable as far as I am concerned. You also helped change an IAD policy that would only have hurt two groups: People trying to make a difference and froggers traveling to IAD looking for as much variety and choice as possible....

Here's to hoping that you stick around in some capacity. Good luck....


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Thanks again, I`m not going anywhere. I just need some time to myself after all these years. The hobby has changed a lot and I`ve had my head in the sand. With efforts such as Understory, Aark, TWI and SNDF I`ve decided to couple w/ bigger efforts and help them out in some way.
There has been some tremendous advances in the last couple years and it`s time to re evaluate what I`m doing and where it will do the most good. We don`t have that much time left, it`s 4th and 10 and the 2 minute warning happened while I was building my house :lol: .
Going on the way I have just isn`t acceptable for me anymore.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I hope you're still going to travel around with me & Stan


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

But of course, hopefully more of it.
Esp. w/ Stan on the bass boat he`ll win this year.


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## nyfrogs (May 1, 2005)

heck yea! bass all the way!! and i will travel also if gary gets some breathe right strips :lol: :lol: :twisted: :evil:


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

You are the second full time dart frog breeder that has decided to call it quits this year and get another job (that I know of). It's interesting that you say this is the first time you've had a surplus of animals you can't get rid of. I have heard this from several breeders and I've been in the same situation for the first time since I started in the hobby some 12 years ago. Could it be that we have gotten "too good" at breeding some of these animals or are there just too many people in the hobby "breeding the crap" out of these things? I don't know the answer but it seems in the last few years the hobby has definitely changed and seems to have reached some kind of turning point, though I'm not really sure if it is good or bad. Have we reached some critical mass where there are too many "breeders" and not enough "casual" hobbyists?

More questions than answers obviously but worth thinking about.

Good luck with your new endeavors Aaron.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> You are the second full time dart frog breeder that has decided to call it quits this year and get another job (that I know of). It's interesting that you say this is the first time you've had a surplus of animals you can't get rid of. I have heard this from several breeders and I've been in the same situation for the first time since I started in the hobby some 12 years ago. Could it be that we have gotten "too good" at breeding some of these animals or are there just too many people in the hobby "breeding the crap" out of these things? I don't know the answer but it seems in the last few years the hobby has definitely changed and seems to have reached some kind of turning point, though I'm not really sure if it is good or bad. Have we reached some critical mass where there are too many "breeders" and not enough "casual" hobbyists?
> 
> More questions than answers obviously but worth thinking about.
> 
> Good luck with your new endeavors Aaron.


Yeah Aaron, best of luck to you...in case you forgot, I thought I'd remind you...being a slave to the timeclock sucks! Though it is nice to know that you're going home at the end of the day, and after that, problems at work are still at work, versus having to sleep in the room next to you're work (frog room).

It's definatly a tough market out there...you almost have to give some frogs away, though there will always be the "hot sellers" of the year or month as the case may be.

Take standard imitator for example...when I got into the hobby just 3-4 years ago, there were wait lists and I actually paid $100 each for 2 known males, got on a wait list for some froglets at $65 a pop, waited over a year for them, and was thrilled when mine were finally ready...
Fast forward to today...I see someone offering subadult imitator for $30!

It is kind of different how people that keep darts, for the most part, are looking to breed them, vs. some other tank/cage pet hobbiests are just looking for a cool display animal...but it only makes sense, since the breeding behavior in PDFs is so interesting...
Just some thoughts,
Again, good luck Aarron


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Best of luck Aaron! 

I too have noticed a change in the market - at least the online one. I've not been to enough shows to see if the trend transfers there too. Kinda makes me glad I can't breed my frogs for crap.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

First let me say good luck to Aaron.. I won't see you at Hamburg but I'll see you at IAD. 
It is a shame that people get overloaded and have to change focus or direction.. 

Good luck hope to keep seeing you around. 



Snip "It's interesting that you say this is the first time you've had a surplus of animals you can't get rid of. I have heard this from several breeders and I've been in the same situation for the first time since I started in the hobby some 12 years ago. Could it be that we have gotten "too good" at breeding some of these animals or are there just too many people in the hobby "breeding the crap" out of these things? I don't know the answer but it seems in the last few years the hobby has definitely changed and seems to have reached some kind of turning point, though I'm not really sure if it is good or bad. Have we reached some critical mass where there are too many "breeders" and not enough "casual" hobbyists? "endsnip

I hate to hijack Aaron's thread here but I have some comments to make on this topic...

This hobby as do many of the other herp hobbies run in cycles of desirability. I can think back to not too long ago when lots of people wanted E. tricolor and then when a lot of people were breeding them, breeders couldn't give them away (metamorphs were selling for less than $15.00)... people dumped thier breeders or stopped breeding them and slowly animals died off until now there is a demand for them again.. 
If you looked at the tables at IAD last year I think you could/can see a similar trend in D. azureus... 

Right now the thing the FR pumilio morphs, thumbnails (and inceasing in desirability E. tricolor) and other morphs uncommon in the hobby that are coming into the country right now..
If you look at the history of the herp pet trade overall, you will see that there are often boom and bust cycles... different colubrids have gone through this cycle a number of times.. and the problem is that each time the few people that hold onto thier animals are the ones that repopulate the hobby, which in the long run means that the population becomes more and more inbred over time... 
Ball python color morphs will also provide an example of this particuarly the dominant or codominant patterns. 

This can make it difficult for the person who is doing this as a job to combine longterm sustainable income while attempting to conserve the genetics of the population in captivity as they have to try and anticipate the rise and fall of the markets and have a "product" that is desirable for the general market.. Particuarly when FR or WC imports can have a dramatic ripple effect on the desirability on currently established species and morphs.. 

I don't think that the hobby has gotten too good (otherwise we would have long since stopped importing auratus) but instead a reflection of the changes in the market. Just look at the frogs for sale in the classifieds here.. Compare the numbers of pumio and thumbnails to the other types of frogs.. 
For example I could only find one ad for Patricia "morph" tincts.. 

Ed


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Absolutely this hobby cycles, no question. What is interesting though is that (to me anyway) this seems a little different. Maybe it's because this is the first time there have been so many new species morphs etc. coming in from overseas like you said. I've only been in the hobby for 12 or so years and certainly this is the largest volume of imports I've seen since I started. Maybe there were periods prior to the early 90s where this type of volume came in, I don't know. I think maybe it's the desire of everyone to have the latest and greatest (or newest) frog. Obviously there is only a limited amount of $$'s people will spend on frogs and if the majority of the $$'s go to the newest frog and there is an "endless" supply of "new" frogs then very little $$'s go to buy "old" frogs like tincs and auratus. Like you said it does seem to contribute to limited gene pools as frogs go out of favor. Anyway, thanks for the thoughts Ed, insightful as always.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

The job is just part time to get me on a schedule for a while and get out in the sun and do some landscaping to get landscaping plants for here. I should be able to hire some of the crew weekends and get some help out here. Plus it`s great to see a landscape transformed by some hedge clippers at the end of the day. I used to love it.
the social aspect is also much needed. Just to be part of a crew for a while and shoot the shit at lunchtime. I`ll never leave breeding animals for good. I`m not getting rid of everything just cutting down to bare bones for a while and seperating pairs. I`ll still be at all the shows.
I`ve just got to get away from the internbet for a while and talk w/ people who aren`t on the other side of a screen for the summer.
I`ll write more on the imports and breeding later. 
my gfriend will kill me if I don`t get upstairs soon. still some mouths to feed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Robb,

A bit of quick digging around.. 

snip "Approximately 18,500 specimens of D. auratus were reported in trade over the period 1991 to 1996. The great majority of specimens were live animals, exported from Nicaragua, and presumably destined for the herpetological pet market. The USA was by far the largest single importer of D. auratus (about 15,000 animals in total) during this period"endsnip 
(from http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/55174/all )

I was unable to tease out the number of pumilio during this period but it was considered to be considerable. 

Ed


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Aaron,
Thanks for your help and professionalism. Thanks for the FYI and I hope all the best for you.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Yes, imports are coming in in great #`s and they are in great shape because of the way they are coming in. Not many are dying and they do demand a hi price taking away from what was spent on cobaalts and powder blues before. I`d love to get some of the new stuff but I`d also hate to compete w/ the conservation efforts at hand. A lot of people are looking for breeders but if I grow up 5 pair of citronella and get them breeding and they breed well for others will this just crash the market for them and loose bloodlines in the process. It is a problem for us to conserve auratus if they keep coming in in those #`s, it just overloads the market and it crashes. I`m going to keep working w/ the grannies and harder to breed pumilio but what if columbia opens up and costa rica and surinam again? We need new blood but we also need to conserve it. There aren`t really enough people in the hobby for all that is coming in. There are probably more morphs available today than ever. Some of these frogs can produce 80+ eggs a month. That means only 15 pairs would be needed to produce the # of auratus imported in one year. I personally have crashed the market on terribilis when I started w/ only 4 pair. I dropped the price from $125 to $50ea or less in only 2 months and had to wholesale them at $25 ea w/in 4 months. It is a very volatile market. 
Most other animals are seasonla breeders and there is a natural ebb and flow. Geckos only produce 2 eggs / 3 weeks. darts can breed year round causing them to always be available causing the illusion that they are established when it`s only one pair producing them all. Thus my implementing breeding seasons from now on which may be only 4-5 months out of the year. i`m still working up a schedule to coincide w/ fall hervest, hunting and fishing season. Things change and we need to plan and change with them. Now that solid conservation efforts have arisen it`s time for me to work w/ them not against them. Possibly collecting pumilio and housing them singly for a long time. All things I need to think about.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Aaron, are you at least going to keep your "pets" and just get rid of the surplus offspring? (other than keeping the rarer pum morphs and grannies). Therefore, you wouldn't have to start over again and just keep the frogs "just" to keep them.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Well it sounds like you have a plan so thats good. I hope you are succesful with your self subsistence/sustainable farming. I have always been interested by that stuff. My dad owns an organic farm and is from a cattle family so i guess you could say its in my bloodline, but with me being younger and all i guess i will stick with the garden plot and composting in my backyard.

Good luck with everything!


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Aaron,

First I wish you the best of luck, and completely understand the need for more consistency in your life and some time away. 

I would urge you to think about some things in the article posted here:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19815
or the article link:
http://www.kero-kero.net/poptrends.html

If you have not already read it.

I think what we are seeing and I mean no offense to any of the breeders by this is that in any business you can not expect to produce the same thing for 30 years without a change. Supply and demand will change and as we have seen recently with this hobby may change frequently. I do have a concern with some very fine animals falling out of the hobby as we lose some of the larger breeders. For example if I am not mistaken Aaron keeps a rather good collection of auratus and while they may not be high priced animals or in high demand at the moment I would hate to see some of the amazing morphs lost forever in the hobby due to this.

My advise to you Aaron is to find a middle ground. Scale back a bit, and get everything on a schedule where it is easy to manage. For example I work a full time job that can have long hours at times and keep about 50 tanks of frogs. I feed every other day, and never worry about if that means I may miss 2 days. I make cultures and change tadpole water on Saturdays. That is about it, but I personally use it as my get away and find it very soothing to go to the frog room to hide for a little bit when I can. I think with misting systems and etc you can find you can keep much more than expected with very little maintenance this way. You can also work a normal job or part time job as you mentioned and get out of the house. 

I worked a job for awhile that was Mon-Wed 7am to 7pm, and while most would think that is awesome, it drove me nuts. I had to look for something else and could no longer spend all those days at home.

Best of luck Aarron, and if you ever need someone to talk to or bounce some ideas off of feel free to PM me, e-mail me, or contact me and Ill get you my phone numbers.


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Aaron,

While I don't post here too often, I read and have learned a lot on this board. Your thoughts and ideas have helped many of us. Thanks for everything you have done and will continue to do. Best of luck in your endevors.

Jason


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

That`s the problem, popularity trends. I will still have more darts than most hobbyists but I can`t just keep them producing. This creates and overabundance and I can`t keep my (what was)whole collection seperated into 10 gal tanks. I will keep the majority of what I have left that way for a while. I`m basically just trying some new things out here w/ seasons as i am a little worried most of the common stuff will fall out because of all the new imports. this is relatively new to have so many morphs competing against each other. UNfortunately in this case only the beutiful and rare survive, which does no good for the amount of blood out there. I have to somewhat give up on the more common stuff as I`ll be overrun and that will do no good for any of the animals if I spend all my time making ff`s and breeding crix for auratus that are coming in at the rate of 15,000 a year. Sure I could produce as many as are imported but why? 
The hobby has changed a lot and I think I can come up w/ a solution working w/ AArk and Twi. Such as everyone gets 1 sexed animal of most of these morphs and registers for future breeding programs. I`ve started to find that 1 animal in a 10 gal tank almost doesn`t have to be fed(almost). Rich Frye gave me a great idea about backing up collections.
So to reiterate, I`m only going away for a month or 2 to meditate on this. I will be back and I will have a plan!
It`s kinda like you can`t see the forest thru the trees. I need to back up to see things in a more clear way. It`ll help me find some answers on how to keep conservation efforts strong and not topple the system in the process. I take it very seriously that we are trying to save these animals. if I have to get a job(breeding chams and such) and give advice and only work w/ the hardest to breed stuff, I will. What I`m doing only makes a little breathing room for who`s left. I sincerely believe I can breed any animal I put my mind to from doing this so long and I only want it to do the best for the frogs future. If traveling to peru and panama, fighting chytrid and gathering field notes will do best I`ll work toward that in my vacation time each year.
The other thing about this "business" is that taxes, heat, taxes, electric, insurance, taxes, did I say taxes? and all the other stuff that goes along w/ running a business doesn`t let me stay stagnant w/ the business. It has to pay it`s way or we`re all out on the street. My Vietnamese mossies are taking over during this break. I`m producing abuot 80 a month from one pair. Take the wholesale price in half and that is the hourly rate for a full time job. They need no ff`s and can keep this place going a while w/ help from the cresteds, leos and chameleons. So now we have other animals working to save the frogs. These animals I can breed and care for in my sleep because they all eat crickets or bb food and so do their offspring. The vietnamese mossy tads are already bigger than any dart tad Ive ever seen and they are only 1 month old w/ no visable back legs in site. These things are going to be giants right out of the water.
So as you see I can probably make $20 an hour on just 1 pair red eyes and 1 pair vietnam mossies. I chose to work w/ the harder species. I gave up my R. chahoua trio which produced 4 offspring a month @ $350ea. to focus on the dart frogs. They ate baby food, not ff`s and springtails. And for me they were very easy to breed.
I have add also, which means I need a change every once in a while to keep things interesting. When I stop learning I get bored. That`s why I tried to push it to the next level w/ a microscope and trying to set up a small lab. I just couldn`t find the time though. 
I can and will make a living off breeding animals for the rest of my life. I`d be extremely stupid to do otherwise and squander my talent. Since I can crash markets in a month or 2 I have to use my talent well and not just breed the heck out of stuff like I did in the past. I`ll breed chams for a while and mossies and such to get a vaca and I`ll be back. I`m doing this to give everyone else a break(and me too of course) as I see it to be the best thing for the hobby at the moment.
I have told some people who test for chytrid and treat for parasites that I`m here to take overstock. I can take a little of the load off people since I can care for so many frogs. I will have a gap in my customer base at the white plains and hamburg shows and since I won`t be wholesaling there will be a few less vendors w/ darts there.
See things like me selling wholesale to vendors who import other frogs probably sometimes w/ chytrid and they say they got them from me then someone buys them because of the name and they get chytrid, it`s somewhat my fault. These are things I never really thought about before and this goes on to the thread about chytrid I`ll be starting this afternoon.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Aaron, 
Well, I for one will miss your presence here. We exchanged several ideas and PM's over the last several months and I have learned a lot as well as gotten a lot personally from it. Eventhough I have never met you in person I know you are a person that is committed to this hobby and if you think this is what is right for you then you have my full support in it. I will say I will be sad to see you go, even if fo just awhile, but you have to do what is right for you. Hiopefully you'll be able to check in hre occasionally and say Hi, but until you get back in the seat good luck and enjoy the time you have!


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Aaron,

I understand your need to change gears for a while. I am looking forward to seeing you back - even though I know you are not truly leaving, just taking some time for yourself.

Good Luck,

Melis


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Good luck Aaron, hey do you still have that 5 legged frog I saw at White Plains in January?! John.


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