# Much needed advice from experienced keepers please and thank you



## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

*Purchase a trio of Cobalts Dec. 19th 2010 from a sponser on this website. (PM me and I will give info to the ID since this insn't Vender Feedback)

*Of the three, only one looked a little thin, and I thought I could fatten it up by feeding dusted flies 2x day (Note picture #1; this was the slightly underweight one)

*Approx. about 2 months ago, what I thought was breeding behavior, with advice on this forum, I was told the 'frog on top of the frog' or 'hugging tightly' was more likely same sex aggression instead. Thus, I took the frog in picture #1 who was seperated, put the aggressor in the QT, and the underweight frog back in the main viv. The reason I did this was because I had noticed the one frog that was being stressed (note frog in picture #2) by the aggressive frog was also starting to lose weight.

---
Since then, both the underweight frogs have been eating their flies, iso's, and springs, and have shown to be friendly with each other but I'm now concerned about the thinest of the two frogs in question. I don't know if now I should be concerned about paracites??

My feeding regimine:

*Feed 2x day, 7 days a week; the melo, golden, and black hydei are always dusted with Calcium Plus. They have access to a feeding station too.

*I mist 1x day for now, but will soon be misting 2x day soon since the ambient air is now becoming drier.

*I supplement with tropical and pink springs, white and gray isopods.

Specs on tank:

20L viv
Sphagnum/Peat moss mix for subtrate, there is perlite but it is the base layer and has not rose to the top.

Temp: 74-79F when lights are on; I measured the temps with a temp. gun
Humidity: 85%

Here are the pictures:
Frog in pictures #1


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

Frog in pictures #2 (this was the frog being harassed)


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

At this point, I'm not sure what my next course of action should be?

The thinest of the the two in question is back, alone, in the QT.

Also, apparently I do have a male in the mix... I only heard him twice, and I think it was sheer luck cause the room was dead silent, and the soft buzzing noise was almost barely audible. A very quiet sound.

Age is unknown since this sponser did not list the age, only the size which at the time was 1/4 inches.

Please give me your opinions and advice.

Thanks,
Jessica


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Your first frog is scary skinny. Your parameters and feeding practices sound fine. I would get fecals done ASAP along with asking for the proper meds from whichever vet you use. Make sure the vet you choose is familiar with PDFs.
Good luck!


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Your first frog is scary skinny. Your parameters and feeding practices sound fine. I would get fecals done ASAP along with asking for the proper meds from whichever vet you use. Make sure the vet you choose is familiar with PDFs.
> Good luck!


Scary skinny is what I'm thinking too. Doug, do you know where I can run a search on vets in my area that advertise experience with frogs to send a fecal too? My local vet office is closed for the night right now.

Thank you very much.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

Most clinics are probably closed for the night unless you go to an emergency clinic which is not going to be familiar with darts. I suggest calling any of the exotic vets in your area first thing in the morning to try and find an appropriate one. Most clinics only have limited Saturday hours and no Sunday hours.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Some say go with ARAV vet. Some say try Dr. Frye. Here is the ARAV site. It includes a directory to find an ARAV vet in your area.
ARAV

Here is copy of an email conversation I had with Dr. Frye concerning getting fecals done through him. I have omited his address and phone as I don't feel I should be giving that out, but here is his email address which can be readily found out anyway. [email protected] NOTE: His pricing may have changed by now.

_The cost is $18 per group of frogs housed together. Collect 3-5 feces from each group of frogs and put them in a small air-tight container with a small amount of moist paper towel to keep them from drying out. Label each tank’s sample and send them ASAP to ******. Try to aim for a Tuesday, Thursday, or Friday delivery. We are closed Wednesdays and Sundays, and the hospital closes on Saturdays before mail arrives. Next day delivery is ideal, but 2-day will work. You can include a check, call my hospital to pre-pay via credit card at *******, or send me funds through Pay-Pal at this address. Thanks._


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fishr said:


> Scary skinny is what I'm thinking too. Doug, do you know where I can run a search on vets in my area that advertise experience with frogs to send a fecal too? My local vet office is closed for the night right now.
> 
> Thank you very much.


You can use this directory to look for exotic vets. ARAV 

The vet doesn't have to have experience specific to dendrobatids. Experience with herps and/or a willingness to work with you and ask questions is often just as good. 

It looks like you quarantined the frogs but did you get fecals done on them while they were in quarantine to check for parasite load? 

Ed


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Those frogs are super skinny. I would definitely me concerned. You say they are eating well, but if so, they should not be so skinny. Definitely get fecals done ASAP. What you do from there depends on what the vet says. You're probably going to want to set up a couple quarantine tanks tho ASAP that you can alternate between sterilizing one while the frogs are in the other.


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> It looks like you quarantined the frogs but did you get fecals done on them while they were in quarantine to check for parasite load?
> 
> Ed


I did not. I thought the loss of weight was competition for food. Now I have regrets I did not act on this sooner. 

Many thank you's for providing the ARAV link and thanks to Doug for the excerpt to Dr. Frye's e-mail.

I will keep you all updated if you'd like.
Jessica

PS My leuc's which are in their own viv, and were not purchased from the same company, are all doing very, very well. Just thought I'd throw this out there.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

In addition to the ARAV, *here* is the roster of all of the diplomats of the American College of Zoological Medicine. These are veterinarians that are board certified in zoological medicine. Most work at zoos but you may be lucky enough to have one of the few who practices on companion exotics in your area.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Jessica, were these guys wild caught? You got them in 12/10 so they aren't part of the recent import. I think that was 2011.


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

frogface said:


> Jessica, were these guys wild caught? You got them in 12/10 so they aren't part of the recent import. I think that was 2011.


They were advertised as C.B. 1/4 inches lsst year. 

I posted a Vender Feedback post for where I got these frogs from as well.


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

parkanz2 said:


> In addition to the ARAV, *here* is the roster of all of the diplomats of the American College of Zoological Medicine. These are veterinarians that are board certified in zoological medicine. Most work at zoos but you may be lucky enough to have one of the few who practices on companion exotics in your area.


Awesome! Thanks for this info.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

fishr said:


> They were advertised as C.B. 1/4 inches lsst year.
> 
> I posted a Vender Feedback post for where I got these frogs from as well.


I notice you say they 1/4 in when you got them, what size are they now? I would also ask that you post 1 or 2 pics of their tank, 1 showing what it looks like inside the tank. What we are seeing in those frogs did not happen quick , it took quite a while to get to this condition. Ideally, if these were sought help for at an earlier stage the potential outcome would be better, as they sit, any improvement will take a long time. I look foward to seeing the tank pics, Bill


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

In the meantime, you might try to get them to eat some ff larvae, to get extra calories in them. I've separated larvae from the media by putting a glob of it in a strainer and then rinsing the media through. I've also pulled them out by hand, but, that's not really a lot of fun.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

^ Kris's advice is sound.

A large chunk of banana in the tank will help too, FF will lay eggs and larvae will develop and be eaten by the frogs.

Personally, i would be treating with panacur or ivermectin now. I'd send fecals but I wouldnt wait for a response...instead i would start tx now [in fact I would have done so before they got this far along].

Good luck

S


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

A topical dose of ivermectin from "Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry" is 2mg/kg.

Double, triple, quadruple check your calculations and post back for verification before dosing them.

EDIT:

Recommended dose for fenbendazole is 20-25 orally (good luck making that happen. A ball tip catheter stylet on the end of a syringe is probably the easiest way.) This is from a recommendation on the veterinary information network. Sorry I don't have a text source.

One big thing That needs to be mentioned is that depending on the life cycle of any potential parasite, cleaning up the environment is a must. I would start dosing frogs in a quarantine container. If the frogs get better but decline again after treatment, they're persistent in the environment and your viv has to be redone basically.

Good luck!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

parkanz2 said:


> In addition to the ARAV, *here* is the roster of all of the diplomats of the American College of Zoological Medicine. These are veterinarians that are board certified in zoological medicine. Most work at zoos but you may be lucky enough to have one of the few who practices on companion exotics in your area.


There are actually a large number of Zoo vets that are not listed there that are licensed to work in zoological medicine. As an example some notable absentees are the primary author/editors of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry... It isn't required to work as a zoo vet but it helps and there are alternative paths depending on the college of choice. 

Ed


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

Ed said:


> There are actually a large number of Zoo vets that are not listed there that are licensed to work in zoological medicine. As an example some notable absentees are the primary author/editors of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry... It isn't required to work as a zoo vet but it helps and there are alternative paths depending on the college of choice.
> 
> Ed


Oh definitely. I just noticed some vets that are DACZM that weren't on the ARAV registry so I thought I would give all the options. It's definitely been the norm until recently that certification through an organization was a less common pathway. It seems to be shifting in the other direction now.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Do you have any pictures from when you first got them, then maybe half way from then to now, so they can be compared?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

parkanz2 said:


> Recommended dose for fenbendazole is 20-25 orally (good luck making that happen. A ball tip catheter stylet on the end of a syringe is probably the easiest way.) This is from a recommendation on the veterinary information network. Sorry I don't have a text source.


Tubing a large dendrobatid isn't as difficult as people make it sound. It is easiest with two people (One to restrain the frog, the second to dispense the medication). A flexible catheter works just fine, the frogs typically are easy to get to open thier mouths, often all that is needed is a thin flexible card (credit cards, identification cards) are used to get the mouth open.... You need to keep in mind that the volume of medication is going to be small so you generally have to use some water to make sure the dose is pushed out and into the frog. I've done it many times over the years. 

I've got to say I'm surprised that there is a recommendation to shot gun treat the frog with wormer before a fecal since if the cause is protozoal, neither of those medications are going to do any good... or if it tapeworms then ivermectin isn't going to help and fenbendazole doesn't kill all tapeworms.. in addition see below... 

If I was contacting a vet, if the vet couldn't see the condition of the frog, I would make sure to let them know that the frog has lost a significant amount of body mass. The vet may want to change the dose to keep from killing the frog from a reaction from all of the dead parasites in the body. In addition, if in person, the vet could assist feed the frog and demonstrate how it is done. The partially predigested canned liquid diets for cats are an excellent option but the amount has to be calculated to prevent refeeding syndrome. 



Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

parkanz2 said:


> Oh definitely. I just noticed some vets that are DACZM that weren't on the ARAV registry so I thought I would give all the options. It's definitely been the norm until recently that certification through an organization was a less common pathway. It seems to be shifting in the other direction now.


Sorry then, to me it seemed to imply that the other vets would be less suitable.

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm no expert, so I very well may be wrong, but, if your frogs are still alive today, then I'm not sure you can say that they were sick when you got them last December. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/vendor-feedback/74936-lll-reptile.html#post661067

I dunno.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

Ed said:


> I've got to say I'm surprised that there is a recommendation to shot gun treat the frog with wormer before a fecal since if the cause is protozoal, neither of those medications are going to do any good... or if it tapeworms then ivermectin isn't going to help and fenbendazole doesn't kill all tapeworms.. in addition see below...
> Ed


I definitely agree about the knee jerk treatment. My biggest fear is people accidentally doing more harm than good by incorrect dosing calculations when they dose themselves. I had a friend who made his dog quite ill by using farm animal ivermectin concentrate for heart worm prevention because he forgot to take into account the differing concentrations... Just offering guidance if that route was taken.

I agree that a vet visit is the best first step and should have stated that initially.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

frogface said:


> Do you have any pictures from when you first got them, then maybe half way from then to now, so they can be compared?





frogface said:


> I'm no expert, so I very well may be wrong, but, if your frogs are still alive today, then I'm not sure you can say that they were sick when you got them last December.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/vendor-feedback/74936-lll-reptile.html#post661067
> 
> I dunno.


If you look at her very first post to DB (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/61785-photos-colbalt-tincs.html), you can see that at least one of the frogs was extremely thin when she received it. I'm surprised that they held on this long to be honest.

I hope you can get them taken care of Jessica. They really look to be in bad shape. I wish you and the frogs the best.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

You're right. One of them was thin from the start. Thanks.


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

frogface said:


> You're right. One of them was thin from the start. Thanks.


I was wondering this exact same thing. I didn't know it was like this from the beginning. Specially since I really doubt there is a sponsor that sells 100% parasite free frogs. That's why is good to get fecals tested and do proper QT procedures.

I really hope they make it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ulisesfrb said:


> I was wondering this exact same thing. I didn't know it was like this from the beginning. Specially since I really doubt there is a sponsor that sells 100% parasite free frogs. That's why is good to get fecals tested and do proper QT procedures.
> 
> I really hope they make it.


Particularly since the only way to guarantee a parasite free frog is to euthanize it and necropsy it looking for the parasites. If the frog has a strain of coccidia that is causing it problems treating the frog doesn't as many believe wipe it out, it causes the coccidia to stop reproducing and allows the frog's immune system to get it in check. If you necropsied a frog post treatment and recovery for coccidia, you would be able to find the coccidia still present in the digestive tract. 

As a second point, a healthy frog may not shed parasites with every fecal (or potentially the rest of it's life in the case of treated coccidia), as the immune system is helping to keep them in check. It is only when the animal is stressed that the parasites can begin to get the upper hand (in general, some examples like hookworms, and lungworms in the genus Rhabdius can build up to super infections (which is why a vet should be able to see the frog if at all possible) and can seriously harm the frog or if given a significant enough dose of worming agent, kill the frog due to the response of all of the dead worms. 

Depending on what the fecal exam shows for the frogs, your probably going to have to tear down the tank and discard everything that cannot be sterilized (substrate, plants, wood..) and sterilize the rest of the materials. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

parkanz2 said:


> I definitely agree about the knee jerk treatment. My biggest fear is people accidentally doing more harm than good by incorrect dosing calculations when they dose themselves. I had a friend who made his dog quite ill by using farm animal ivermectin concentrate for heart worm prevention because he forgot to take into account the differing concentrations... Just offering guidance if that route was taken.
> 
> I agree that a vet visit is the best first step and should have stated that initially.


I've seen people kill snakes and helodermatids using the wrong concentration of a wormer... 

Ed


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

Ed said:


> I've seen people kill snakes and helodermatids using the wrong concentration of a wormer...
> 
> Ed


That's horrible.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

parkanz2 said:


> That's horrible.


Yep........ 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ed said:


> I've got to say I'm surprised that there is a recommendation to shot gun treat the frog with wormer before a fecal since if the cause is protozoal, neither of those medications are going to do any good... or if it tapeworms then ivermectin isn't going to help and fenbendazole doesn't kill all tapeworms.. in addition see below...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I assume you are commenting about my rec Ed.

I am suggesting a fecal be obtained, and sent asap, but NOT WAIT until results come in...

As IMHO they are at deaths door.

And the index of suspicion is high, that this is likely from parasites...

Wont help anyone to get a Dx, after the animals are gone.

IT is also likely they wont recover regardless of Tx or not, as animals that lean, dont take well to re-feeding, QT tanks, stress.....and I suspect may never breed well again even if they recover.

Shawn


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> I assume you are commenting about my rec Ed.
> 
> I am suggesting a fecal be obtained, and sent asap, but NOT WAIT until results come in...
> 
> ...


Yes it is at deaths door but if the frog for example has several different parasite loads and then hitting it with a full dose of ivermectin or fenbendazole can easily be a death sentence due to the massive influx of decomposing parasites. You are correct that the frog has a low probability of survivial. 

With respect to refeeding if the frog was tubed with a easily digested food source that is balanced with respect to nutrients (which is probably not the case with a mash of vitamins and fruit flies as the supplements can be overdosed) such as the predigested liquid feline diets, then feedings do not have to occur twice a day or even daily. Keep in mind that anurans (like many other herps).... This is a much lower stressor than prying open the mouth repeatedly to push small amounts of a fruit fly mash into the mouth. 

I flagged it due to the tendency of the hobby to confuse coincedence with causality... 

Ed


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

I'd like to say a big thanks for all the replies.

One of the three cobalts (in the first set of the three photos posted) is not going to make it and I'm really bummed and perturbed at LLL (I posted a feedback post, and it is up now) for advertising captive bred frogs which obviously... well I'm not going to go on a ranting storm on LLL but rather I'm more unhappy with myself that I didn't realize or think about possible paracites sooner instead of just competition for food. 

Two of the cobalts are still doing good and I hope to get them treated.

Not much of a good update but there it is. 

Jessica

EDIT: Forgot to ask, is Co2 the accepted 'humain' method of euthanizing?


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## Greasy (Sep 1, 2011)

I used to work at a wildlife hospital, we used CO2 to gas all sorts of stuff. I don't really remember what we used for reptiles and amphibians. According to this website you aren't suppose to use CO2 for herps. Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

fishr said:


> I'd like to say a big thanks for all the replies.
> 
> One of the three cobalts (in the first set of the three photos posted) is not going to make it and I'm really bummed and perturbed at LLL (I posted a feedback post, and it is up now) for advertising captive bred frogs which obviously... well I'm not going to go on a ranting storm on LLL but rather I'm more unhappy with myself that I didn't realize or think about possible paracites sooner instead of just competition for food.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that because a frog is captive bred it is not necessarily parasite free, in fact, I'd gander that a lot of the captive frogs are carrying subclinical loads of parasites. Which is not necessarily bad things, but has already been discussed elsewhere.

I'm glad to hear that two of the frogs are looking ok for now.



IceDragon said:


> I used to work at a wildlife hospital, we used CO2 to gas all sorts of stuff. I don't really remember what we used for reptiles and amphibians. According to this website you aren't suppose to use CO2 for herps. Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia


While this is commonly practiced, and is listed as a humane method of euthanasia for reptiles and amphibians by the AVMA, there are recent studies proving significant aversion to CO2 in rodent species. There are other people who don't feel this is appropriate in reptiles/amphibians, like you mentioned Ice.

It's still probably one of the most practical and humane ways to euthanize our darts but there may be better options and it might be worth consulting a veterinarian.

Several others have suggested benzocaine topically before euthanasia but I can't attest to that method. It sounds like a good idea though.

Just some thoughts.
Max


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

parkanz2 said:


> While this is commonly practiced, and is listed as a humane method of euthanasia for reptiles and amphibians by the AVMA, .


It isn't recommended as it has been documented that some herps can still function after many hours of anoxia. If I remember correctly it isn't recommended in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry or the Second edition of Reptile Medicine and Surgery. 

Benzocaine has been acccepted as a humane method of euthenasia for amphibians. See http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf It is also considered acceptable to immerse the amphibian in 5-10% etoh until it achieves a plane of euthenasia and then immerse it in 75% etoh. This method can also be used with eugenol. 

Ed


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

Ed said:


> It isn't recommended as it has been documented that some herps can still function after many hours of anoxia. If I remember correctly it isn't recommended in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry or the Second edition of Reptile Medicine and Surgery.
> 
> Benzocaine has been acccepted as a humane method of euthenasia for amphibians. See http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf It is also considered acceptable to immerse the amphibian in 5-10% etoh until it achieves a plane of euthenasia and then immerse it in 75% etoh. This method can also be used with eugenol.
> 
> Ed


Ah yep, now that I read more closely I do see benzocaine on there. CO2 is still listed in these guidelines as acceptable for some reptiles and amphibians. Has there been a more recent update? Certainly not advocating its use, just trying to clarify. I definitely don't agree with everything the AVMA does. I'll do some more reading tomorrow. Dendroboard is bad for my "official" studies.

Either way, a lot of people leaning towards "not cool" as a method of euthanasia. Thanks for the info Ed.

EDIT: just noticed that we linked the same thing... oops.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Did you notice the author of the article that Ice Dragon linked? 

Ed


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

I used a benzocaine oragel to euthanize sls froglets. It works, unpleasant and more hands on than would be ideal but it is what it is. Hopefully more painful for you than the frog, that is the idea. My condolances


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Did you notice the author of the article that Ice Dragon linked?
> 
> Ed


Edward? What's your point, Ed? I fail to see a connection concerning Edward, Ed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Erikb3113 said:


> I used a benzocaine oragel to euthanize sls froglets. It works, unpleasant and more hands on than would be ideal but it is what it is. Hopefully more painful for you than the frog, that is the idea. My condolances


 
A way to get the benzocaine to be more hands off is to squirt some into a some room temperature water and throughly mix it. A lot won't go into solution but it will suspend well enough that the frog can't avoid contact with it. This can be placed on the bottom of a cup so that the frog can't avoid contact with it but not so deep that the frog is made to think it could drown. 

Keep in mind that with topical applications, it takes awhile for enough to pass through the skin and cause death. A faster method is once the frog has reached a plane of anesthesthia where it is not responsive is to place it in a jar with 75% ethanol. 

Ed


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